Racism is an insane delusion about people of color

Sunday, February 16, 2014

Good morning:

Although I am pleased with the three guilty verdicts of attempted second degree murder and the guilty verdict for shooting into a car that will keep Michael Dunn locked up for the rest of his life, I am disappointed with the jury’s failure to reach a verdict on count 1, which charged him with first degree murder for the death of Jordan Davis.

Ironically, without the presence of the three boys in the Durango and the guilty verdicts to diminish our disappointment, we would be in a much different emotional state today.

I support Angela Corey’s decision to retry him, but she is going to have to change her strategy to obtain a different result.

I am going to focus on Jordan Davis today, which is his birthday, and explain what she must do to obtain justice for Jordan.

The time has come to stop white-washing racially motivated crimes. By that, I mean ignoring the elephant in the living room, racism.

Although motive is not an element of most crimes and therefore irrelevant, it may be relevant (i.e., probative) to prove intent.

The importance of introducing evidence of racial motivation comes into sharp focus when the victim, like Jordan, was black unarmed, and the defendant, like Dunn, is white and claims he saw a weapon or a portion of a weapon and killed the victim in self-defense.

Such a killing would be justifiable homicide in self-defense, if the defendant reasonably believed himself to be in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury.

As our United States Supreme Court has often said, reasonableness depends on the “totality of the circumstances.”

We know from Dunn’s letters that he regarded the four boys as dangerous thugs and gangsters listening to “thug” music.

That is a racist assumption unsupported by any evidence.

Sometimes people see what they expect to see or want to see and that certainly applies to racists who are substantially more likely to assume that an unarmed black male teenager is an armed thug than an unprejudiced person.

Like it or not, that mindset is part of the totality of the circumstances that a jury should have a right to consider in deciding whether a defendant like Dunn gave a truthful account of his actions and acted reasonably.

Our legal system needs to acknowledge the existence of racism and call it what it is, an insane delusion.

A claim of self-defense must be evaluated according to whether a reasonable person in the same situation as the defendant would have believed himself to be in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury such that the use of deadly force in self-defense was reasonably necessary.

There is no such thing as a reasonable insane delusion and we do justice to no one by excusing a violent act committed by a person pursuant to an insane delusion and ignoring the consequences of that act.

I do not mean to suggest or imply that Dunn actually saw a weapon or believed that he did. I believe he lied about that to avoid arrest and prosecution.

Evidence of a racial motivation to kill makes comprehensible the otherwise incomprehensible crime.

For example, let’s assume that a defendant in a murder case, who shot and killed an unarmed teenage girl whom he did not know, testifies and says,

“Why would I have killed her unless I believed she had a gun and was going to rob and kill me?”

A racist is more likely to believe that she had a gun or lie about it than a person who is not racist.

White washing racist defendants by concealing or withholding evidence of their racial motivation from a jury will produce injustice, not justice.

It is not a coincidence that my hypothetical resembles the Renisha McBride case in Detroit, which is coming up for trial in June.

I do not know if Theodore Wafer is a racist, but I certainly would be looking for such evidence with the intent of introducing it at trial, if I were the prosecutor.

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324 Responses to Racism is an insane delusion about people of color

  1. RobUK says:

    Legal Arm of White Supremacy

    White America has had centuries to abandon their white supremacy ideology and give black people equal rights and justice. Let’s face it if they were ever gonna do it they would’ve done it by now.

    White supremacy in America isn’t dying, it has just been refined and is being conducted in a more disguised, deceptive, covert, sophisticated manner for e.g. – A black President to be the black front man for white terrorism (drone strikes, proxy wars etc), mass incarceration of blacks & prison labour: a more disguised, sophisticated & covert slavery etc.

  2. Malisha says:

    Help me out somebody. I remember (or I think I remember) reading something about either Veronica Zuezo or Shellie (probably Veronica) saying that at some point they saw Fogen in a neighbor’s house either with kids he was baby-sitting for or with the kids somehow otherwise, where he was IN THE BED with the kids and whoever was telling this story later mentioned that it was creepy. Now I can’t find that snip of information. Anybody know keywords or a url that will tell me?

  3. Mary Stoltz says:

    Just saw an interview with Strolla on HLN where he contends that Florida law allows for self defense to also apply to innocent bystanders and that is one of the issues he will be appealing on. I’m concerned that he may be right, as Shannon Anthony Scott was protected under South Carolina SYG laws. I am hoping that it would only apply if Dunn had requested a SYG hearing, but would love to hear input from those more knowledgeable about the law. Surely, Judge Healey knew what he was doing when answering the jurors question??

    • Mary Stoltz says:

      Sorry. I finally found the discussion about this in the “Saturday night review” so I am feeling better about it, again. Thanks.

    • Malisha says:

      I don’t think any legislature is going to make self-defense against one person into a license to kill four or 100 any time soon. because if one of their gun freaks were to start a fight in a mall, another gun-toter could step up and blow him (and his wife and kids and the shop-owner and 44 bystanders) away. That’s not good for corporate profits.

  4. Tell me again that the Zimmerman verdict wasn’t a hunting license. Yeah, he’s going to jail for a long time, but, as Coates points out, the fact remains that Michael Dunn picked a fight over music he didn’t like and opened fire because his wishes were not heeded by kids who were perfectly within their rights to tell him to go piss up a rope. Except, of course, the kids were black, and in a gun-drunk culture, and in a state that has completely surrendered itself to violent confrontation, that makes all the difference.
    Tell me again that it wasn’t a hunting license. Tell me again about teachable moments.

    http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/dunn-verdict-021714

    (hat tip msmolly, Firedoglake)

  5. Malisha says:

    It’s funny — I went over to the Outhouse (after getting my shots to avoid infection or rabies) and made a one-sentence comment: “Trayvon Martin was not a thug” back in 2012 some time, and they went totally apeshit and a few of them probably had to be sedated or treated for apoplexy getting themselves into serious snits about it and then they started agreeing with each other about how awful and nasty I WAS. Some of them couldn’t think of anything to say except invective. Adrenalin rush! Then I posted it one more time and the statistics for emergency care in their communities rose overnight. I waited a few weeks and tried it a third time but their filters wouldn’t let it in! “NOT A THUG” was an obscenity to them!

    What they mean when they declare somebody a “thug” is that they are making themselves automatically superior to the thuggified target. If you say the target was not a thug, that drops them down a big peg (an imaginary peg, that THEY installed in the first place) and they can’t tolerate it.

    Most of these bullies have been raised by parents who tore down their egos repeatedly (to build up their own flagging egos, to be sure) and who created in their children a permanent need to put somebody ELSE down in order to try to feel superior. Damn shame. What could otherwise have become good enough humans turned out so often to be dregs with guns.

  6. Girlp says:

    Some people don’t like Bill Maher I agree with him here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju9YHQG_YMw

  7. Malisha says:

    Hell, Fogen doesn’t want to be a judge or a prosecutor OR a lawyer; he really wants to just be the Massa. He probably harbors secret hopes of becoming President. Just so long as he doesn’t have to really DO anything himself; just boss everybody else around and make sure they do things he wants done. All these bullies are useless. If they could do anything, on their own, they would not be so invested in making others do their bidding.

  8. neveragain says:

    But George wants to be a prosecutor and not a defence attorney , he wants to put bad people behind bars….you would think he would have wanted to deffend those who he think are being falsely charged like he thinks he was….I specifically remember him saying some time ago after his not guilty verdict that he wanted to be a prosecutor

    • Malisha says:

      Sure! He would have prosecuted Trayvon Martin post-mortem for terroristic threatening. And he would have had a dummy in the courtroom that he would yell at: “What the fuck’s your problem homie?” and he’d WIN!

    • J4TMinATL says:

      Today, he says attorney. Tomorrow it will be something else lol.

    • neveragain says:

      I was thinking maaan,, this guy really wants to fight crime…he is obsessed with getting thieves and thugs in jail…..I mean I hate a thief but I don’t go running down innocent people for looking at houses while they are walking and accuse them of casing houses

    • bettykath says:

      Here’s what he said in the Spanish version:

      “I had wanted to be a police officer since I was a kid, and I thought that was the best way to help young people in the community. But working with children in the program as a mentor, I saw that when you’re – when they get to the point where the police need to intervene, it’s too late, unfortunately. And that was the point where I chose to either be a lawyer or to continue on and be a judge. So I was never frustrated about [not being a police officer]”

      So it’s too late once the police have become involved so he wants to be a lawyer or a judge. Does it not occur to him that the lawyers and judges become involved after the police are involved? What kind of positive intervention is that? As usual, he’s at the a$$ end of logic. This isn’t something we need to worry about except that he’s delusional. He’s not smart enough to get onto a police force (and that’s really something!!) so I’m not too worried about him becoming a lawyer or judge.

      • Lynn says:

        Barely passed high school in the bottom of the barrel. Went to community college for enough years to be a neurosurgeon (well, almost) and never got a 2 yr degree. Will never get into a 4 yr university with his grades…and he believes he’ll be accepted into law school?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

        • Malisha says:

          He can probably get accepted at a right-wing “Christian” university founded on and funded by political rather than academic considerations. Maybe he’ll become a preacher. Like the “expert” who wanted to testify for FoDung.

          I can just see the letters after his name:

          M.Div. – Master (he loves that word) of Divinity
          S.D. – Doctor of Shrimping
          Pfffff.DTM – Pfffffffui! Don’t Tell ME!
          M.Ho. – Master of Homies
          STD – Scared to Death
          RFD – Ready for Diapers
          MFA – Masters of Fake Art

  9. bgesq says:

    my sense is that he is worried about the federal civil rights investigation and he is trying to spin things to garner support to insulate himself. I am not a psychologist, but he appears to be extremely.controlling and thinks he’s smarter than everyone else.

    • J4TMinATL says:

      I don’t think he’s worried. Just using it as excuse to not answer question.

      But DOJ confirmed charges are not expected.

      I think we all knew that wouldn’t go anywhere……

    • Malisha says:

      I agree with that but I also think his pontificating on “miscarriage of justice” and so forth is just more of the immature mental dysfunction he displayed when he:

      1) Began to run around RTL with a clip board self-importantly telling residents he was the neighborhood captain and wanted their cooperation;

      2) Told Serino that he wanted to be a judge to help people;

      3) Called NEN to report a “real suspicious guy” who looked like he was “up to no good” on 2/26/2012;

      4) Demanded from Trayvon Martin an account of himself and his presence in the RTL neighborhood;

      5) Described the evening’s activities including referring to Trayvon Martin 16 X as “the suspect”;

      6) Pissed and moaned that he was in constant danger because of death threats;

      7) Adopted his self-identified “TOP AMERICAN” identity with a paint-by-number American Flag; and

      8) Asked a cop at a traffic stop, “Do you know who I am?” as if he was somebody.

      These people, these substance-free bullies, are made out of images that flash across other know-nothings’ screens. What they say does not have content; it is one sound-byte after another screaming in the wilderness: “ME ME ME ME ME!”

      • J4TMinATL says:

        I agree @malisha.

        Chris called him shallow after interview.

        I think he feels like he still has something to prove. And likes that he does. He likes having people hating him, imo. Nothing new.

        He said he will Florida on his terms. He also said he will never leave the country.

  10. George Zimmerman wants to become a lawyer to stop ‘miscarriage of justice.’

    Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/george-zimmerman-lawyer-stop-miscarriage-justice-article-1.1617016#ixzz2tapFRynO

    Newsflash to GZ:

    Um. You will have to finish community college first. And so far? It’s been about seven years with no graduation in sight.

  11. J4TMinATL says:

    Here is the context. He didn’t blame Obama.

    Become an attorney ….I thinks that’s the best way to stop the miscarriage of justice that happened to me from happening to anyone else not one person.

    What was the miscarriage of justice?

    The fact that two law enforcement entities stated that that I had acted within the laws of our nation in self defense.

    You don’t think it was about the law?

    I know it wasn’t, yes.

    And what does that make you?

    Like a scapegoat.

    Scapegoat for?

    The government, the president, the attorney general.

    They would be scapegoating you why? Just to show they are taking a position on something that matters to a lot of people?

    I don’t know what they’re thinking or why they’re thinking it, all I know is they are doing it. I don’t know what agenda they have.

    • J4TMinATL says:

      “During our interview his girlfriend and her young daughter wouldn’t leave his side.” The daughter ran up to him and hugged him and he gave her a kiss. GAG.

      We all know what that was for.

      Do you regret killing Trayvon Martin?Wouldn’t answer question because he’s under investigation for a hate crime.
      Only thing he would change about that night is staying home. Maintains what he said on the stand, I’m sorry for your loss when asked what would he say to the family. He isn’t haunted from that night.

      News reached out for confirmation. Confirmed by DOJ: They are investigating but charges are not expected.

  12. Malisha says:

    Because bully citizens are all armed and feel invulnerable thanks to SYG laws, we have a very unfree condition. It’s not safe to go to the movies, to pull into a parking lot, to go to the store for candy, or to turn to your fellow citizens for help with anything. We live in an armed camp. Even shopping is hazardous.

    Reminds me of a clip I saw a few years ago, when I still found it possible to laugh at it:

  13. Dear Fox Orlando:

    Why do you have George Zimmerman’s photograph pictured on a Michael Dunn jury vote article. Seriously. Whore for ratings much?

  14. J4TMinATL says:

    This SOB……wow.

  15. neveragain says:

    Tmz video clip of George Zimmerman interview…George says he blames obama

    • Is it just my computer- the link is not taking me to Daily Kos, for some strange reason…

      • J4TMinATL says:

        Crane here is the article from the link a2nite shared:

        A man shot inside a Walmart store during a fight died, police in the Phoenix suburb of Chandler said Sunday night.

        Detectives reviewing surveillance video report that two people got into a fight in the store, which ended in a shooting around 4 p.m. Sunday, Chandler police spokesman Joseph Favazzo said in a news release.

        Favazzo told The Associated Press that the shooter remained at the store for a little while and then fled. He didn’t make any other threats, the spokesman said.

        Soon afterward, a family member called authorities to report his whereabouts. Police picked him up at the home and were questioning him. The man wasn’t under arrest as of Sunday night and was cooperating with authorities, Favazzo said.

        The victim had been taken to a local hospital in critical condition, but later died. His name hasn’t been released.

        An employee who answered the phone at the Walmart store said she wasn’t allowed to talk about the shooting. An email sent to corporate headquarters wasn’t immediately returned. Favazzo says a sign was posted saying the store would be closed until 7 a.m. Monday.

  16. bettykath says:

    OT re: name of Washington’s football team.

    “It is not up to the oppressors to decide what is insulting to those they oppress, i.e – A rich white man does not have the right to tell my Native American daughter what she should find offensive.”

  17. Off-topic again. The BBC picked up the story from yesterday, about the Kentucky pastor who used a rattlesnake (unlawful in KY) in a religious online US TV reality show, was bitten, refused treatment, and died.

    Snake Salvation pastor dies from snake bite
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-26224452

    • shyloh says:

      Need I say a PASTOR that breaks the law? What makes these people believe animals won’t bite? I never understood that. I never will. I have two of the sweetest dogs in the world. But my grandchildren are not to get in their faces or aggravate them in any way. Animals bit.

      I hate snakes anyway. They are evil 🙂

      • Well, I really love snakes, disagree with you on that…but they are to be respected. I cared for a rattlesnake patient in ICU in Arizona one time. He nearly died and as it was he was about to lose his arm. It was black, shoulder down. He explained that he reached in to feed his (young) rattlesnake. If memory serves, the young snakes can have more concentrated venom than the older ones. Toxicity is not uniform, in other words.

        And there’s no place in Mark that says, “Fuck with a rattlesnake on a US television reality show.”

        Amazing, another woman died before, who was bitten on this guy’s couch. Amazing he wasn’t charged with murder, back then.

      • shyloh says:

        Ok snakes aren’t animals but you get my drift!!!

      • Malisha says:

        I don’t think they believe snakes don’t bite, but rather that their personal influence with god will make it possible that god will prevent the snake from biting THEM. To that end, any respectable god would of course make sure the snake bit them for several good reasons. Top ten reasons god would have snakes bite snake-charmer pastors:

        (10) Get this guy out of the gene pool;
        (9) Teach some respect for the snake’s personal relationship with god;
        (8) Test the faith of the NEXT snake-handling pastor;
        (7) Make everybody go back to the Bible to check their sources;
        (6) YOU GUYS JUST IRRITATE ME!
        (5) Stop buying snakes and start using your money for charity;
        (4) Somebody measured the cubits wrong;
        (3) That particular snake needed to learn a lesson;
        (2) That pastor’s number was just up at the very moment that he had a snake in his hands; and

        the number one reason god made the snake bite the charmer:

        (1) How presumptuous of you to keep calling on me any old time you want to goof around with a lethal serpent!

        • shyloh says:

          I wonder why he chose not to get medical treatment?! He wasn’t that old at all. That surprises me. Maybe his god told him, “I am done, warned you too many times to knock it off.”

          • shyloh says:

            What’s their point anyway? Play with fire and you won’t get burned? Play with snakes and you won’t get bitten? What purpose is it to handle a snake? I guess I am going to have to do some research on this one.

          • I suppose he actually believed he was special, unique, immune and on TV, so…this couldn’t happen to him. Translation- he didn’t get medical treatment because he is a dumbass. And a selfish one. He left a family behind in the wake of what amounts to a suicide.

        • Girlp says:

          Luv it esp number 1. 🙂 There are some snake handlers north of me in NC…I don’t understand where they get they are suppose do this, they drink posion too.

    • JJ says:

      The religious belief in the 100% truthfulness of the Bible. In Mark 16:18 it says:
      “they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
      http://www.biblestudytools.com/mark/16-18-compare.html

  18. neveragain says:

    2 women voted not guilty on the M1 charge resulting in a hung jury for the M1 charge???…(just like in the Zimmerman case) .and I used to say the world would have been a better place if women were in charge….

    • bettykath says:

      And they lock their car doors if a Black man goes by, hold their purses tighter if a Black man walks nearby, and get off the elevator at the next floor if a Black man gets on.

      Link?

    • Xena says:

      neveragain,

      2 women voted not guilty on the M1 charge resulting in a hung jury for the M1 charge???…

      They voted not guilty of murder, period. They never got around to the lesser charges.

  19. MDH says:

    I got a link to number 2. I strongly suggest everyone read this. Here is just one excerpt:

    http://www.propublica.org/article/living-apart-how-the-government-betrayed-a-landmark-civil-rights-law

    ‘The Home Owners’ Loan Corporation, created in 1933, introduced the practice of redlining, marking in red ink swaths of cities in which it would not lend. It rated white neighborhoods as the least risky and black neighborhoods as the most. It would not lend to a black person seeking to buy in a white neighborhood, or vice versa.

    When the Federal Housing Administration opened its doors a year later, it adopted the same practices. As a result, 98 percent of the loans the FHA insured between 1934 and 1962 went to white borrowers. The policies encouraged white flight as even neighborhoods with small numbers of African Americans were rated as “hazardous.” White residents who didn’t mind black neighbors found their home values decreasing as the government refused to insure mortgages for new buyers.

    A 1938 manual for the FHA encouraged officials to avoid mixing “inharmonious racial or nationality groups” and “the occupancy of properties except by the race for which they are intended.”

    With the end of World War II, a grateful nation made available vast amounts of credit to returning soldiers, who could borrow money through the GI Bill to buy their dream homes in the suburbs.

    But banks often refused to approve loans for black soldiers attempting to use the GI Bill to buy homes. The Veterans Administration and the FHA officially supported racial covenants banning African Americans in new suburban developments until 1950, refusing to underwrite loans that would bring “incompatible” racial groups into newly created white areas.

    Federal housing and development programs worked alongside state and local governments to bulldoze black and integrated neighborhoods for redevelopment and relocate African Americans to designated city corridors.

    In their place, the government built public housing towers, home to thousands and thousands of people, nearly all of whom were black.

    “As the new century wore on, areas of acceptable black residence became more and more narrowly circumscribed. The era of the ghetto had begun,” Massey and Denton wrote in their book “American Apartheid.” ‘

    Some comments of mine:

    The above is a damning argument against those who claim that black people did not pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Outside of the 1% ers, the primary generator of net worth has been the acquisition of property. If an individual is excluded from acquiring 95% of the property in the USA due to his or her skin color, then how, pray tell do they move up?

    An analogy would be claiming that A was a harder worker and smarter that B because he was wealthier, although B was excluded from investing in 95% of the stocks traded in the world.

    • Tzar says:

      Sweeeeeeeeeeeeet

    • Malisha says:

      After George W. Bush gained the presidency, I was talking to a young South African white kid who was here for the summer and he had been in DC and wondered why it was an issue that DC was not a state (license plates). I told him that DC was the only state that was majority non-white, and if it had achieved statehood, there would have been two Washington DC senators in Congress, making that a 102 total and not a 100 total, vote, and that would have made a big difference in many ways, and he said, “Oh I never thought of that!” I said, “the thing about politics in a large and complicated system is that so long as you bury your corruption in unwieldy procedural haystacks you are immune not only from criticism but from disclosure altogether.” He said, “At least Apartheidt wasn’t like that; we just had laws that said what we were doing wrong and owned up to it.” I said, “And that’s why it fell.”

  20. Tzar says:

    glad you guys liked the pbs video
    I would like make two more recommendations for your leisure time
    and they are of the following books
    The Condemnation of Blackness
    don’t be put off by the name
    this is not a screed of any type
    this is hardcore academic writing delivered dispassionately
    but the historical evidence in support of such a sensational title is so meticulously laid that midway through the book it’s as if you become omniscient and you can see all the connections, The race morass becomes almost trivial with its historical machinations laid bare.

    The other is
    Living Apart: How The Government Betrayed a Landmark Civil Rights Law

    This little book is only 2 bucks on Amazon, it’s more like a really long research article (oh wait that’s what non-fiction books are anyway :))
    In any case, if you ever wonder why so many black people leave in “ghettos” or why their communities seem so fractured even today’s post civil rights era? then wonder no more, be warned this is some of the ugliest institutional history of post-bellum American government (and populace), in my humble opinion. (spoiler alert: Mitt Rommney’s dad (the gov) is featured prominently in this history and in some surprising ways too)

    It’s possible that all this stuff is common knowledge and my surprise when reading these books was only a reflection of my ignorance, but I doubt it. Enjoy.

    • texad says:

      Tzar-
      I will try to get the two books you mentioned. It certainly appears that they will only add to the wealth of empirical evidence already out there which shows that at no time in U.S. history has there been any real effort to allow Black Americans to easily become part of the melting pot. Certainly not post-slavery. Most of the efforts to exclude were by judicial means. The 13th Amendment that criminalized all Blacks and created another form of slavery. Justice Roger Taney, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, who said that no Black person had any rights that a white man was bound to respect. Black Codes. Sundown Town laws. Arbitrary loitering laws, i.e. Fogen “what you doing around here”. Separate but Equal laws. Gerrymandering. Redlining.

      The surprise should be not that some of us have fallen into the abyss of crime, drugs, immorality, and despair-but that MOST of us have overcome all of the above BS and thrived.

      I recommend another book: How Capitalism Underdeveloped Black America: Problems in Race, Political Economy, and Society by Manning Marable.

      I also offer this amazingly raw documentary from 1957 on the Crisis in Levittown. The crisis was that the first Black family had moved into the neighborhood. Some of the reactions are surprising.

      https://archive.org/details/crisis_in_levittown_1957

      • MDH says:

        Levittown is where Bill O’Reilly is from. Kind of ironic that those who believe “it is in the blood” live up to “a man is a product of his environment”.

        • texad says:

          I thought I had read somewhere Bill O was from Levittown. That explains a lot, doesn’t it? Most of the parents in the documentary are clueless, so of course they raised clueless kids. Who then raised clueless kids. Bill might be educated, but he is ignorant and proud of it. He will never change because he thinks he is right about everything.

          I thought it was ironic that the mother who was raised in Kentucky actually had a Black friend as a child. Even though she freely used the N-word and had some reservations, she was still open to allow the Black family to live their life wherever they could afford to.

          • MDH says:

            Bill O is from the Levittown that sprang up by NYC. However, the mentality depicted in the film is the same.

      • Tzar says:

        excellent post

        The surprise should be not that some of us have fallen into the abyss of crime, drugs, immorality, and despair-but that MOST of us have overcome all of the above BS and thrived.

        Woah!!! I had the exact same reaction halfway through TCOB book *mind blown* that you would say that

        I recommend another book: How Capitalism Underdeveloped Black America: Problems in Race, Political Economy, and Society by Manning Marable.

        Thank you, I will definitely read this, IIRC I think it was referenced in TCOB

  21. bgesq says:

    i worry most about the movie they’re “teaching”- the script they are perfecting for the next “I had to shoot a child/ syg /self defense” saga- honestly, the look on Dunn’s face after the verdict, when he turned to face his father looked like he was thinking- “I recited all the self defense elements, so what happened?” – like it was a given that he would get off. His testimony was so obviously “scripted” that the jurors should have disregarded it, but they didn’t, even though it was so transparent. These cases are teaching and promoting what to say to get away with murder, and that is a huge problem for Florida and all the other stand your ground states.

    • B.Lawson says:

      What a great comment & observation. Apparently, he could not believe he had been called out…sociopath/narcissist, whatever. Finally he has been stopped, though too late. Thanks for that description. He has lots more to learn, apparently. Scary.

  22. Trained Observer says:

    For one brief moment, Michael Dunn felt like a hot shit who’d taken care of business. By the time Rhonda “Don’t worry, it’s only Michael” Rouer emerged from the store and he’d ordered her into the car, Dunn might have started entertaining second thoughts on just how wise it was to blast 10 bullets into an adjacent vehicle filled with kids less than half his age. In a public parking lot. For no good reason.

    Well the music was loud. And it wasn’t Beethoven.

    But what the hell. As Dunn drove away, nobody followed. No cops materialized, No sirens screamed after him. So much for that episode, Dunn figured, deciding his worst problem was calming the jittery “love of his life” and getting back to the hotel before the dog peed all over his crate.

    No need to report the shooting episode to cops. They deal with thugs daily, and probably wouldn’t want the added paperwork. Just mix a drink or two, order a pizza, tune in a movie, and try to chill out

    Yet lickety-split, in well under 24 hours — thanks to a quick-witted kid living out of his car who’d memorized a tell-tale tag number — cops had descended on Dunn’s residential whereabouts, hauled him back to Jax, and had his ass on a sweat room hot seat. Seemingly friendly investigator inquiries put him off guard, especially when they all agreed on not getting much sleep the previous night.

    So stupid that he wasn’t sure he was under arrest, or even whether he needed to call a lawyer, Dunn thought he could blather his way out of this pickle, what with him being a licensed pilot and all.

    Like let’s make it clear to these cops, that this pesky situation, while regretable, hasn’t got anything to do with alcohol consumption or DUI. Or racism. Oh, definitely not racism. Especially since one of the interrogators is black. Holy shit, gotta do some fast talkin’ now.

    Why those kids, er thugs, had pointed a gun. At me. Or maybe a stick. That’s right, a stick that looked like a shotgun.

    And like sands in a soap opera hourglass, Dunn’s life on the outside was done. No bail, not now, not later, and no trial for another 15 months.

    And the exoneration at trial Dunn was so sure of? Didn’t happen. Not on the night after Valentine’s Day which happened to be the day before his victim’s 19th birthday. After a court clerk read four guilty verdicts, Dunn was led away for good, except for sentencing.

    Never mind the mistrial. Or his appellate fantasies. Dunn’s doom means he’ll never again get to play arbiter of rap in a gas station parking lot.

    Wonder what the Tampa retired cop and self-appointed enforcer who so effectively dealt with the movie theater texter is thinking just about now.

    Sometimes it’s not so much about race as about arrogance and stupidity. And hotheads with guns.

    • neveragain says:

      The message that was sent is…….Dunn we would have set you free by hanging every one of those attemted murder carges just like we did with the M1 charge….but we need to teach our buddies to be smatter…you should not have fired at the back of the SUV …don’t make it look so obvious…..

      • RobUK says:

        I think you’re spot on. White supremacy is in its refinement stage now. Racists who don’t play the game right and are unsophisticated and obvious about it they punish, but the ones who hide their racism behind a cover story are protected.

  23. colin black says:

    142 Responses to Racism is an insane delusion about people of color
    @

    This Premise would be true In the U S A In this period of History

    Post Post Post Raceial Equalty Time but In reality has taken 4 post steps backward an become Pre again.

    But as someone Black once said ..Don King..Only In America.

    Because Raceism has nothing to do with skin colour In the Majority of the world.
    Irish can be hatefull an Raceist to the English an vice a verca.
    And as a Scot I know thers intence raceist derogatory feelings of Raceism felt by a Minority of Scots towards the English .
    Croats hate some Sernians with a passion an likewise it goes on and on.

    Japanease commited attrosites fuelled by raceism towards the Chinease .
    And the Nazis toward People of Jewish Faith .

    Never try an narrow Raceism down to a spectrum of colour its a spectrum of hate pure an simple

    • MDH says:

      Keep in mind that white supremacy has a pecking order. A lot of groups that are now white were not considered that in the early 1900s.

      White supremacy was and is the “intellectual” foundation of denying people of color equal rights and justice across the globe.

      The Nazi’s took the pecking order to its end point by declaring a mythical Aryan, Nordic race penultimate as a justification for stealing the lands of the untermenschen. They vainly opined that the inferior peoples were not capable of fully unlocking the land potential, thus either being doomed to extermination or subjugation. Is that attitude really any different than how slave holders or colonialists thought of people of color.

      Sure, they will tell you that Rome had slaves. And they did. But at least those bastards just saw things as the weak beating the strong. The Europeans, instead of just admitting they are greedy sociopaths, had to invent white supremacy to assuage their Christian guilt. And that makes it worse. In the Roman system, a slave could earn his freedom and that was that. Roman culture would just say he or she was a strong individual. In European or American subjugation, the subjugated, no matter how strong they, as an individual, can be, is inferior. Look at how Obama is mocked as the affirmative action president by the racist right.

      So don’t fall for the we were all slaves at one time argument. The concept of white supremacy has its own unique set of abominations.

      • colin black says:

        America was home to many White Scots an Irish as well as English an Welsh Slaves also The West IndiesnCarabean Islands any where the British could grow tobacco or hemp for rope an other uses .

        Thease white Slaves were called transportees sent into servitude for life Instead of faceing the gallows or Prison.

        Black African Slaves were preferred and indded prized over white .

        Because they could with stand the heat an rigours compared to there sickly weak British counterparts,.

        The Zulus were the biggest Slave owner s and expoiters In Africa until the Arrival of the Eurpeans

        Its part of mans inhumanity towards fellow peoples.

        If you defeat an subjugate a people you exploit there resouses .
        There Women there land s there labour.

  24. Sophia33 says:

    I love the attached video!

  25. This quote just came scrolling down my FB feed and this seemed like a good time and place to share it:

    “It’s not our job to toughen our children up to face a cruel and heartless world. It’s our job to raise children who will make the world a little less cruel and heartless.”

    ― L.R. Knost, Two Thousand Kisses a Day: Gentle Parenting Through the Ages and Stages

    What a hellacious job it is to raise brown kids and have to give them “the talk” and also guide them toward trying to make the world less heartless . . .

    • Malisha says:

      But “The Talk” was always about how to respond to police, teachers, actual authorities, not bullies in parking lots. By the way I do not believe that ALL FoDung did was ask them to turn down their music. I am sure his presentation was a very clear demand for submissive behavior from the kids he had already identified as “thugs” — just as Fogen’s first words to Trayvon Martin were not, “No I don’t have a problem” but the more obvious “What are you doing around here?” — which, by the way, he had previously said to African Americans who just happened to be walking through RTL in broad daylight. There was nothing innocent in FoDung’s presentation in my opinion; it was probably very clear to the kids from body language alone that HE was declaring HIS right to control their behavior and decide their fate.

      • Trained Observer says:

        I agree. And while Dunn may have said “Thank you” after the music was turned down … I’m inclined to think that was laced with sarcasm and possibly additional snot-nosed commentary reflecting his dislike for the music at hand. Dunn may have gotten even more personal and engaged in some name-calling. The three surviving teenagers might not have heard it because of the music, but maybe Jordan did …

        • Malisha says:

          Or Jordan might have been more aware of FoDung’s words and his presentation while the other three were into the music itself or thinking about something completely different. Why should they all snap to attention because a middle-aged white man was addressing them? Why pay attention to him OR to the verbal confrontation? Who cares? Until bullets are flying.

          One time my son and I were in his car as he drove through a city and someone across the street in another car got into a verbal confrontation. Suddenly my son made a right turn (away from our route) and speeded up and I didn’t know why. He explained that the driver who was arguing with the pedestrian had dived down to the right, and “It looked like he might pull out a weapon.” I had not paid attention at all, thinking about where we were going and what we had to do. He said, “Road rage is pretty serious in this town. I don’t even want to be a witness to stuff like that.”

          • Trained Observer says:

            Perfect illustration for our points. Smart alert son, too.

          • I once had a shouting match with my then boyfriend on a street in a city in FL in the early 90s. I was told later that people were afraid we’d start shooting at one another, something that I’d never ever considered before – nor was that the mindset where I was from – people would have thought, eh, lover’s spat, get a room or something like that.

  26. kllypyn says:

    I want to know how they could convict on attempted murder but not decide on murder. It seems to that if Jordan were alone they would have acquitted Dunn. they must have bought his story. despite the fact jordan never got out of the car. despite the fact they heard the pause between shots, despite the fact they heard how he never called 911 until the next day..which means the police had no reason to look for a gun.because he never said any thing about a gun until the next after the crime scene had been cleared and he had been arrested. were they not paying attention?. T
    he prosecution didn’t mention that either. By the way.if they had had a gun they would have used it when he turned and got his gun out of his glove box. Do people in Florida not know how to think and put 2 and 2 together?

    • I think some minds there exploded when Blackenstein became president.

    • Dennis says:

      One answer is that some jurors accepted self-defense for the first shots at Davis, but felt it didn’t apply when Dunn got out of his car and shot at the fleeing SUV. Another is that the jury may’ve been hung on the degree of murder, that none accepted self-defense. To me the first answer seems more probable; otherwise the jury wouldn’t have had that question about applying self-defense to each individual in the car. Then again, we don’t know what the jury precisely wanted to know.

      • MDH says:

        IMO, the second theory about not being able to decide between M1 and M2 is being foisted by stealth trolls. Daily Kos has them and, right on cue their troll – Coffeetalk – started pushing that. That troll is part of a false progressive clique who wants to deny white privilege.

        The first theory is far more likely because instruction for M1 allow for moving down to M2 only after M1 is hung. If one is for M1, and it is hung, then why would they oppose M2?

        There is only one way to hang all of M1, M2 and MS

        Accept Dunn’s claim of self defense.

        And if that is the case, then racism does permeate our legal system.

        Keep in mind that trolls like Coffetalk also were pushing the legitimacy of the knockout game. And they are also in the media as ‘experts.

        • Dennis says:

          My understanding, which may be wrong, is that jurors are not supposed to compromise; they’re supposed to find for the highest charge they feel the state has proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Being that juries do compromise, however, you’re point is well-taken, though it may be the case that some jurors were simply unwilling to compromise or compromise to the extent being asked.

        • The first theory is far more likely because instruction for M1 allow for moving down to M2 only after M1 is hung. If one is for M1, and it is hung, then why would they oppose M2?

          There is only one way to hang all of M1, M2 and MS

          Accept Dunn’s claim of self defense.

          I agree.

      • JJ says:

        On Friday while I was at the beauty shop, I asked if there had been a verdict in the Michael Dunn trial. One lady mentioned that there “might” have been a gun in the youths’ SUV and they tossed the gun after they drove away. This is the reasonable doubt in favor of Dunn.
        However, if someone was shooting at me, I’d take off too! What were the youths supposed to do, stay and wait until Dunn was done?

      • kllypyn says:

        In other words they were stupid enough to buy his story.

  27. Dennis says:

    Some things are so baked into the cake that even good people may fail to realize the unfairness of the recipe. Remember, it’s fish who discover water last.

  28. I’m wondering. Why did this jury believe a single word he said? He didn’t just lie. He committed perjury. He told a lie under oath about calling that neighbor cop person and he didn’t.

    • Trained Observer says:

      It’s a stretch to call the neighbor a cop … wasn’t he with the ag department? You know, the kind of officer who enforces against citrus canker?

      Also, who drags their neighbors into a something like that? Dunn shot repeatedly at a car full of teens in JAX and proudly bagged one. Would 911 be the right number to call while still at the scene or from the hotel?

      But he lies even small stuff. Like denying “thug music” and trying to sub in “Rap crap.” Did he think that was cute? Or less incendiary?

      • Good points, and you are right, the neighbor wasn’t even in law enforcement.

        That ‘thug music’ turned to ‘rap crap’ was actually really bizarre.

        • Malisha says:

          It occurs to me that the reason FoDung made up so many idiotic lies to the cops is that he did not for one second believe that he was going to be disbelieved and actually charged with murder. His amazement: “I told you I was shitting bricks and then you accuse me of murder?” makes me think he assumed that his story was going to be taken as true. AS DID he believe later when he wrote, from jail, that the other three “thugs” in the car were lying to cover their badness. He just assumed his white “truth” was going to be credited and their Black “lies” were going to be automatically discredited. So why should he be extra careful not to trip himself up with statements that could be disproven? He had the virtue of his whiteness so no other virtues were necessary.

          • Delusional. Even if the car was filled with ‘bad’ people, they were unarmed, and Dunn shot them as they were fleeing, then ordered pizza, and made up a story the next day. It;s amazing he didn’t kill a bunch of people in the parking lot, while he was at it.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          Rap crap is better by how many degrees? LOL!

        • racerrodig says:

          In his police interview when questioned about the LE connection didn’t he sarcastically say when asked what dept “…that’s all you need to know”

        • Tzar says:

          lately, I have my own problems with that “rap crap”, never thought I could solve it with a gun though (especially given that some of my problems with that rap crap is “gun lyrics”). That is way more innovative than I care to be, I will stick to looking for other solutions.

          • I ended up watching a movie about rap, and it changed my whole perspective- I think rappers are brilliant. Rap is not always the first genre I reach for, but I respect it. A gun though? Never crossed my mind! Like you, I think there are more innovative solutions and none of them involve a gun, that’s for sure…guns and music never mix in any setting!

          • Tzar says:

            I’ve been experimenting with this new concept in order to deal with “rap crap” of vehicular origin, which can only be described as follows
            Step1. Raise windows of car I am in*
            Step2. finish

            if on foot walk so as to create distance between ears and loud car

            that’s all I have so far, I am gonna run a few trials and report back.

            PS: Rap has been for the most part co-opted or molested or neutered by the marketing machine.

          • PS: Rap has been for the most part co-opted or molested or neutered by the marketing machine.

            I believe that is true.

    • There’s a remote possibility that there were a minimum of holdouts for self-defense.

      Sure would be nice to know what all the votes were. There had to be jury members who questioned everything “Done” said after Rhonda’s testimony and finding out that his neighbor called him for social reasons.

      Bless her heart for telling the truth. She may be a racist too, but she did the right thing.

      • She did do the right thing in the end, so I agree, bless her heart. I am not sure what impact she had one way or the other. I hate to admit, I am reduced to being thankful that someone told the truth under oath. How pathetic is that?? It’s like: I’m not really picky. Not lying. That would be fine. You don’t really have to tell the truth truth. Just don’t lie through your teeth and we’ll talk about how wonderful and special that is, that you told the truth in court, under oath.

        Know what I mean? That’s how far we’ve sunk, in these courts. Seems crazy.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          crane says

          we’ll talk about how wonderful and special that is, that you told the truth in court, under oath.

          i hear ya, crane, lord knows i do. after the zimmerman “friends’n’family” show, however, it was refreshing and more than i was expecting.

          • What the hell did I just see? An article about GZ complaining about homelessness, PTSD? Nevermind, I must be hallucinating. I just glanced at Fred’s screen and I am seeing things.

            Right?

          • MDH says:

            @Crane

            George just keeps painting that corner smaller.

            This shit stain coward who could not even go to 7-11 for a wiener without a gun is going to try to claim PTSD in light of the many men and women who have legitimately put their life in harms way, only to be largely ignored when they return home?

            What next?

            A red badge of courage for those little cuts?

            My father’s friend who served in the merchant marine in WW2 and was on two ships torpedoed by a German U Boat had PTSD. Although the man had his problems and ended up on skid row, he would have told George to take that gun and shove it up his ass, if he had faced it.

            What a pathetic attention whore George is.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          Yeah, it’s crazy, Crane. Totally.

  29. bettykath says:

    Good discussion here from this morning.

    http://www.msnbc.com/melissa-harris-perry

    • Trained Observer says:

      Thanks for link bettykath. Female commentator anchoring was off base right away talking about three fatal bullets for Jordan, when ME said he likely would have survived two of the bullets.

  30. Tzar says:

    if you have not seen this documentary yet, then you should

    interactive tutorial on the history of race in America
    http://www.pbs.org/race/000_General/000_00-Home.htm

    • I haven’t seen any of this, and I am going to watch it, thank you. Wish we had this earlier- we struggled on what to put up today, to talk about racism. We finally agreed on the vimeo, but it is not a formal tutorial. Thank you. Much appreciated.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      @tzar — as a dedicated student of anthropology, i cannot tell you how much pleasure this link has brought to my day. thank you kindly sir, i shall get back to exploring. 🙂

      PS — have missed you, buddy, don’t be a stranger.

    • Malisha says:

      Tzar thank you!!

    • Thank you – I too have a background in anthropology and a life degree in hellraising for social justice.

    • Watched. Thank you so much, this was really informative and really well done!

    • MDH says:

      The topic in third video, which should be self-evident to any person with eyes, ears and a rational brain, is the key to debunking racism.

      If one takes a random sample of individuals within one of the race categories, there is the same chance of that individual matching another across race categories as within.

      For example, if we found a sociopathic asshole cluster, Zimmerman and Dunn would be in a rainbow coalition of other assholes.

      Computer geeks would be in there own happy world of variable color.

      And so on.

      Racism robs an individual of being just that – an individual, not a “category”.

      How many times do we here.

      You can’t do that because that not what X’s do?

      • Tzar says:

        Racism robs an individual of being just that – an individual, not a “category”.

        And this is the greatest crime of all, one of existential proportions
        the indictment of which is usually deliberated by poets with ink and annotated by men with blood.

      • Tzar says:

        Racism robs an individual of being just that – an individual, not a “category”

        It is just another ism subsumed under a generally acquired “narcissistic absolutism” -which may be redundant on me to call it that- and it can take many forms

        Chimamanda Adichie: The danger of a single story

        • MDH says:

          Wow, I can relate to that.

          I have relations with degrees from American universities that remark about how people in the country of Africa were living in trees.

          Apparently, their “superior” education did not inform them that Africa is a continent with dry grasslands being the dominant feature for peoples speaking Bantu languages. Or that the “tree living people” are probably something they saw in a National Geographic program about band level hunter gathers in the Amazon – which was connected to Africa about 200 million years ago before plate tectonics split what geologists called Gondgwanaland.

          I have had many long talks with Senegalese people. Many have degrees from the University of Dakar. IMO, their degree is worth more than my relatives in that they not only show a better understanding of African geography, but of our own continent.

          Sadly, they come here and have to do the education thing all over again because we don’t recognize the legitimacy of African institutions of higher learning.

  31. fauxmccoy says:

    as a teen in my first or second year in college (i started young at 17), my best friend and i were sick and tired of hearing every other girl in the dorm blasting ‘flashdance’ on their boomboxes. both of us having received 10 years of classic piano lessons, but having no access to a keyboard, chose to blast rachmaninoff on general principle, even though it was not our favorite music.

    if i were a mom to black teens in the south, i think i would buy them the biggest subwoofers i could afford and encourage them to blast bing crosby. again, just on general principle and to observe the reactions.

    (side note: expect to be installing my own set of subwoofers in my SUV with window tint just barely within the legal limit. playlist to be determined.)

    • Malisha says:

      Think of what a “TV Moment” it would be if cars drove all over Jacksonville tomorrow (Presidents’ Day) blaring the loudest loudest music ever! with signs on the window: “You’re not allowed to shoot me and you’re not allowed to shoot AT me and miss.”

    • J4TMinATL says:

      I used to “cruise” in my Honda Accord in college. Would fold the back seat down for extra effect (Amp was screwed to subs). We would cruise Peachtree Street blasting music. Ultimate “cool status.”

      The one place I love being is my car. It’s my time to turn up the stereo and put every problem aside.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        likewise … this will be my first foray into the subwoofer territory, but i have room for it now and can afford a decent sound system at this point in my life.

        • racerrodig says:

          I had one of the 1st bi-amped car stereos back in the 70’s (needed it to hear Cheap Trick over the 450 HP exhaust note!!)

          Pioneer it was….the controls were on a coiled cord and could be hung up like a CB mic…..That car is my Avatar in fact.

          Go for it…….

  32. J4TMinATL says:

    Goes back to white is right and white is good. Whites can make mistakes but they mean well. Whites aren’t evil, not even a little except of course for the few with mental probs or a messed up childhood.

    But whites don’t extend this to blacks. Blacks are born bad. When blacks make mistakes whites will say “just goes to show what their true nature is.”

    Whites think they make the rules and are superior…they are the judge of character. If whites say it’s okay, then it’s okay. Whites give each other the benefit of the doubt. That benefit does not apply to blacks. They will just assume.

    Whites have a list of what blackness is. If blacks just had more money…if blacks would just stop acting black…if blacks would just act and do like whites…

    The ole white moral superiority.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      oh J4, i know what you are saying is true … but i would beg you to come spend a weekend with me in san francisco to see a very different side of life.

      • J4TMinATL says:

        What’s different in San Francisco (I have been) than Atlanta besides the obvious? No way I could afford to live in San Fran.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          i no longer live there, i’m about 3 hours north. what i loved about it was the enormous diversity and widespread acceptance of such, whether in rich neighborhoods or poorer ones. i’m not sure what you would be calling ‘the obvious’ other than the large gay community, but that definitely adds to the diversity i mentioned. what always struck me is how as a city of such enormous differences, we coexisted, intermingled in what i can only describe as beautiful harmony, for the most part.

          my experiences in atlanta (and they were long and numerous) were just not the same.

          • Two sides to a story says:

            I suspect that diversity in the Pacific NW still has its dark side for the darker humans. Better conditions, but not as rosy it would seem from my WASP perspective. Disclaimer: I’ve spent more time in the “Pacific SW.”

  33. Tee says:

    Professor, what do you think the chances are that Dunn attorney come the prosecution asking for a plea instead of going to trial again. Being that he will be spending the rest of his life in prison what’s his purpose for going to trial again when the outcome won’t change anything, it’s still life. But then again I guess he still got his appeals to count on.

    • Malisha says:

      Oh I believe FoDung is convinced he will be exonerated. Right now he is mentally and emotionally reinforcing to himself the idea that he has been wrongly convicted and that Amerka will free him and make him into the hero he should be. And he will lead white Amerkins to change the laws so that thugs can’t get away with framing real Amerkins. I give it a 1% possibility of a plea bargain. FoDung has probably just amended his five-year plan to make it a six-year plan instead.

    • Trained Observer says:

      IMHO, he could spare his parents, the weeping love of his life, his son and bride (what wedding memories), and two hapless daughters tons of emotional stress (not to mention dollars that might be directed elsewhere) by agreeing to plead guilty to at least manslaughter. But no … his arrogant kind won’t do that.He’ll continue to doom those around him to endless angst.

      • Toxic people sure break lots of hearts.

      • racerrodig says:

        You just had to do it “(what wedding memories),”

        “…and here’s dad pulling up in the Jetta…..he’s the one in the shorts”
        “…and here he is at the bar……”
        “Here he is pissing in the neighbors bushes”
        “I think this one is his girlfriend Rhonda, not exactly sure, trying to clean up his vomit….
        “Here’s dad…and his exwife, who’s my mom arguing about something”
        And this is the official wedding picture…..that’s dad in the back..
        …he doesn’t smile much”
        “and this one…….is…….dad at the bar again”
        “Here is moms look as he was leaving…..she was so happy!!”
        “Then this one is dads booking photo….mom must have stuck in in here”

    • I think Dunn believes he was entitled to shoot to kill and will not back down. Besides, he’s a selfish guy and gains nothing by pleading guilty.

      Unless in exchange for a guilty plea and a substantial financial contribution, Governor Scott agrees to pardon or commute his sentence.

  34. Off-topic.

    In Kentucky, there is a law on the books:

    437.060􀁢􀁢􀁢Use of reptiles in religious services.
    Any person who displays, handles or uses any kind of reptile in connection with any
    religious service or gathering shall be fined not less than fifty dollars ($50) nor more
    than one hundred dollars ($100).
    Effective:October 1, 1942
    History: Recodified 1942 Ky.

    In case you are wondering why such a strange law is on the books, take a look at this article, from today:

    “Religion

    Snake-Handling Reality Show Preacher Dies from Snakebite

    Believed venomous snakebites would not harm believers if they were anointed by God”

    Read more: Snake-Handling Pastor Jamie Coots Dies After Poisonous Snakebite | TIME.com http://nation.time.com/2014/02/16/snake-handling-reality-show-preacher-dies-from-snakebite/#ixzz2tWe0V0dF

    • I nominate this idiot for a Darwin Award.

      • “Coots was given one year of probation in February 2013 for crossing into Tennessee with poisonous snakes.”

        I guess he was following some convoluted law other than Kentucky law too.

    • Dave says:

      Has the law ever been challenged on constitutional grounds? (First Amendment–Religious Freedom)

      • Well, likely there have been challenges, although I cannot cite at the moment. Asking Fred just now, and he is saying the law has been upheld most likely because religious freedom is not an absolute right. There is an issue of public safety (not to mention animal cruelty) – People get hurt, or worse, and the law does not support this. I hope that answers, in a nutshell. It is sort of akin, although not exactly like, not allowing life-saving medical intervention to a child in all cases, on religious grounds, because it can be considered child abuse.

        Perhaps others in the thread have experience in this area…

        • Dave says:

          Thanks Crane. I know there have been legal battles over religious issues like the ritual use of peyote by Native Americans and animal sacrifices in Santeria ceremonies.

          • Yes, and also things like the use of bald eagle feathers…stuff like that. I have not done much research though. This thing. It’s like don’t fuck with an anaconda in a box, right? Dumbass:

  35. fauxmccoy says:

    great article fred. i will freely admit that i am of two minds regarding this issue. whereas i can freely acknowledge that race played a significant role in dunn’s decisions and there is proof to back that up, i question whether this would help or hinder the prosecution in obtaining a verdict when considering the jury pool from which they draw.

    the one thing we do know is that in cases such as dunn and zimmerman, what is usually a successful prosecution team is not achieving the desired verdict. (in this thought, i am deliberately setting aside my own belief that the zimmerman trial was thrown upon instruction of higher ups, up to and including gov. rick scott. i do not believe that this was the case for the dunn trial.)

    as a team, they have to re-evaluate their tactics, that is a given.

    the other thing i know, is that as long as the jury instructions remain as they are in florida, leaving too much room for the jury to entertain the delusions of a defendant, that convictions of white folk and particularly when the victim is a minority, will be more difficult to obtain.

  36. This is kind of what I was wondering:

    Lisa Llewellyn ‏@LisaLelle 11m
    “@MrsAlSwearengen: So, it appears Michael Dunn got prison time not for killing one black boy, but for missing three others. #DunnTrial” !!!!

    • I mean seriously. If only it weren’t true, it would be Onion, all day long.

      • Yep, that person is right.

        Michael Dunn isn’t going to spend the rest of his life in prison for killing an unarmed black kid by shooting him in the back. He’s going to spend the rest of his life in prison for shooting at and missing three other unarmed black kids.

        WTF kind of a message is that to broadcast to the world?

        Amerika 2014

        • We know the split was about self-defense, but we don’t know what the split was. I’d like to know how close this jury came to acquitting Dunn for the murder of Jordan Davis.

          If that had happened, the verdict would have been absurd.

          • Xena says:

            10 – 2, with 2 wanting not guilty on count 1. Both jurors are White women.

            Wait for the source to come forth in the media. If it’s wrong, I will humbly apologize.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            xena says

            10 – 2, with 2 wanting not guilty on count 1. Both jurors are White women.

            Wait for the source to come forth in the media. If it’s wrong, I will humbly apologize.

            oh, very interesting, i am eager to hear more. may i ask where you found this nugget? if true, that’s not perfect, of course, but gives a strong argument for the prosecution’s case in general.

          • Xena says:

            fauxmccoy,

            i am eager to hear more.

            As I am eager for the info to be released to the public.

            may i ask where you found this nugget?

            You may ask, but I’m not telling. 🙂

            if true, that’s not perfect, of course, but gives a strong argument for the prosecution’s case in general.

            Yes, it sure does.

          • OMG, Xena! As I live and breathe, It’s so cool to see you today!

          • Xena says:

            Crane-Station,
            🙂

            Have you seen my other comments? Please check in the “About” section. It’s been waiting for a response since Nov. 29th.

            There’s also a comment I posted on Feb 1st that I anticipated a response, but will let the matter rest.

          • No, we did not see any of them, and we have no idea why. Nothing showed up in Fred’s pending, nothing lit up. I wonder, if they separate the ‘About’ section comments- seems odd. We do not have any clue what happened, and we are very very sorry. Gremlins in WordPress machine! Fred is writing a post and then he will check into it. It will be later this morning, and thank you!

          • Xena says:

            Crane-Station

            No, we did not see any of them, and we have no idea why. Nothing showed up in Fred’s pending, nothing lit up.

            Those comments that I mentioned posted without any problem. It was after the Feb. 1st comment that one comment disappeared, and another was waiting moderation.

            I emailed you and Fred of a change that I expected would send my comments to moderation.

            At least the problem has been fixed.

          • So glad it is fixed, no idea how it happened. I don’t think Fred knows either.

            general information for the curious: I do not moderate the site- he does. We use WordPress. We work on separate laptops. I sign in under Fred to post (and I know Xena has told us how I can post without doing this but progress not perfection!)- to post my articles and see who is visiting the site, what countries and all. He monitors the pendings, and he does not know what happened. That said, similar things have happened like this in the past with WordPress, but not to this extent. We are very sorry, and glad to see it fixed!

        • Malisha says:

          WTF kind of a message is that to broadcast to the world?

          DUCK!

        • bettykath says:

          But I do think that if he had killed the other three that he would be doing time for M1 or M2.

          The message that it’s ok to kill a Black teen just by saying your afraid of him needs to be changed and that’s why I hope Dunn is retried and convicted.

  37. stan says:

    Once again resorting to the razor so profitably employed by Mr. Occam, let us relegate to the outer limits of human society those self-deceived and thus those trapped in the primitive mind-set of racism by remembering the genius of Thomas Jefferson when he stated:

    “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator* with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness…”

    *Jefferson was a Deist and unequivocally pronounced the content of two testaments to be absurdity personified and fabricated by the few to enslave the minds of the many
    .
    **Mr. Clarence Darrow in the famous 1925 Scopes “Monkey” trial stated that, and I paraphrase, ‘To think is to differ.’***

    ***Of course, the counter point as expressed by Dostoyevsky through one of his characters is that mankind so loves ‘miracle, mystery, and authority’ and human history would tend to support this perspective with few exceptions.****

    ****Glaringly notable exceptions: ‘The Age of Reason’ Thomas Paine, The Declaration of Independence, The United States Constitution, and its Bill of Rights.

    • “****Glaringly notable exceptions: ‘The Age of Reason’ Thomas Paine, The Declaration of Independence, The United States Constitution, and its Bill of Rights.”

      Why is it, that I suddenly and for no reason, envisioned the Seven Deadly Sins?

      I don’t have any idea why, but I did!

      • stan says:

        Seven Deadly Sins?

        1. Listening to Justin Bieber
        2. Waiting with baited breath to see what other items of clothing Miley Cyrus can remove.
        3. Seriously thinking about Charlie Sheen’s engagement to marry an authentic human being.
        4. Waiting for a street car named Desire.
        5. Thinking there are really two separate, distinct major political parties in the United States.
        6. Believing that the American Civil War ended in 1865 C.E.
        7. Not believing Sinclair Lewis’ statement “When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”

        • Well, of course, I am seeing the satire in this, and sadly, maybe one of the problems is that bottom line, people are not thinking critically and rationally about the subject of racism, today. One through four involve sitting on the couch. We have a responsibility to educate ourselves, and we (I mean ‘we’ in the broader sense) are not doing it.

          On #7, I am reminded on this montage, based on Naomi Klein’s book called “The End of America.”

          It is called “Freedom to Fascism in 10 steps” –

          Note the very last step because it is creepy, and relevant, to this discussion. “Suspend the rule of law.”

          • stan says:

            Yes, I am familiar with Naomi Wolf’s ‘The End of America’ and would recommend for your reading dismay ‘American Fascists’ by Chris Hedges, Alan Dershowitz’s ‘Blasphemy-How the Religious Right is Hijacking our Declaration of Independence’, and Kevin Philips’ ‘American Theocracy: The Peril and Politics of Radical Religion, Oil, and Borrowed Money in the 21st Century’.

            It’s enough to make a grown progressive liberal cry!

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @ stan

            i would add the book “kingdom coming: the rise of christian nationalism” by michelle goldberg to your list.

            http://tinyurl.com/l4g8asl (amazon link and reviews)

          • It’s been a while since I had a chance to really read, like in real reading and not researching for a post. This looks like a great list, and thank you!

          • Two sides to a story says:

            I appreciate a book list too. I read in far too many bits and pieces online.

          • Bits and pieces reading is unsatisfying, compared to real reading.

        • racerrodig says:

          What made me want to heave was Strolla using the expression that Duuhhnnn was all American blah, blah….”…wrapped in the American Flag”

          Is this guy kidding….so murder is as American as NASCAR racing, hot dogs, apple pie and the American Flag.

    • Yep.

      I miss the Age of Reason.

      BTW, Jefferson was a slave owner.

      • Malisha says:

        AND the slave cemetery at his plantation had Christian quotes about rewards in heaven written on the one big grave marker (individual slaves did not get their own names and dates on stone there — just admonitions to live for their after-life rewards).

      • stan says:

        Apparently in a draft of the Declaration the words were ‘life, liberty, and property.’

        Property takes in a lot of territory.

      • stan says:

        Oh, very glad Fred you are feeling well again, and considering you said you miss The Age of Reason, exactly how old are you?

          • stan says:

            Why yes, I am glad to share my age with you. I just am old enough to start taking driving lessons, of course accompanied by an adult.

            But your above response to my remark suggests that you either miss ‘The Age of Reason’ because it is no longer with us or you were there in person and personally miss life during those times.

            So what will it be Buckaroo?

      • stan says:

        While I surely identify with and intellectually embrace the minds of the great thinkers of the Age of Reason, I am rather Newtonian in my weltanshauung in that I recognize I have acquired my cosmic point of vantage by standing on the shoulders of giants.

        And the view is magnificent!

        I am of an age when the mud became animated, and began to think, stand erect, and face eternity with the ultimate question on its lips: Why?

        And so, if I were asked my ’Age’ I must answer I am of the ‘Age of the Mind of Man’

  38. I really want to know what the split was, in that jury. For example, if Dunn had killed everyone in the car on the first round (it’s amazing he didn’t by the way) and never fired the second volley. What kind of conversation would we be having here? Would that be a mistrial? Or what?

    Because he did claim self-defense as to everybody in the car, as well as that invisible carload of ‘gangster friends’ in the parking lot.

  39. Malisha says:

    “I’m not putting words in your mouth am I?”

    “Not NOW you’re not.”

  40. B.Lawson says:

    I was not in a place to follow very much of the trial. If “intent” was the necessary element for the M-1, what does his reaching for his gun indicate? What more would be needed? Im sure he did not reach for it to clean it on the spot.

    • The necessary mental-state element to prove murder first degree is premeditated intent to kill. That requires reflection on the decision to kill and a decision to go ahead and do it. It doesn’t require a specific amount of time and the length of time may vary with the case.

      I think the more appropriate charge is second degree murder, which is committing an act imminently dangerous to another person while evincing a depraved indifference whether they die or suffer serious bodily harm.

      • B.Lawson says:

        “Depraved indifference” sounds very
        accurate; thanks. I can see where premeditation would be more difficult…
        but he did intend something when he took out the gun.

        • He intended to kill, but it’s OK to kill in self-defense.

          Some members of the jury bought his self-defense claim and some didn’t. That’s why the jury hung on the Jordan Davis murder charge.

          • Dave says:

            Professor, I think it would be more accurate to say that one or more jurors failed to buy the prosecution’s case for Murder. The fact that all twelve jurors signed on to the three counts of Attempted Murder in the Second Degree through the Discharge of a Firearm tends to disprove the notion that anyone had any sympathy for Dunn’s actions.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        fred, i too, think that M2 is the more reasonable charge here, simply because most jurors will not accept a time period of premeditation being in the 30-90 second range, even though that is allowable under the letter of the law. it is certainly more difficult to argue. there are a significant number of potential jurors who will hold ‘over charging’ against the prosecution on general principle. i am not one of them, but know they are out there.

        the one advantage to M1 is the 12 person jury, florida’s jury laws being what they are. tough decision to make.

  41. Boyd says:

    I have to give Strolla credit, He did not fool me, but he did a good job of creating an illusion that Dunn was justified.

    Again I’m a layman , I’m amazed how a defense lawyer an open a question with “could it have been blah blah blah that you saw?” and they respond “maybe” … I’m rolling , dude, you know what you saw , so tell him what you saw. I’m not the type that allows people to stick words in my mouth, but other people are.

    • racerrodig says:

      I’ve said it before and I’ll keep saying it. Lawyers like Strolla and O; Mara only convince the weak willed. I have met an untold number of people who jump from one side of the fence to the other at the snap of a finger.

      Prosecution “Blah, blah….blah, shot an unarmed kid, blah blah…exhibit S1…video of the shooting, blah, blah, boring holy smokes blah….state call witness Freddie, states blah, blah saw him do it…blah.

      Weak willed juror “Oh my God……this is terrible, the victim needs Justice !!

      Defense “BLAHHHH BLAHHH, believe your ears, not some video from a camera, blah, blah…had to shoot to live, blah…blah, more lies, don’t believe any witness, blah, blah, they all lie.

      Weak willed Juror “How dare they prosecute this guy….he had to shoot to live.

      I’ve had customers in my shop when my regulars were over “bench racing” and it’s comical when one of the weak willed gets to getting pumped up on the merits of the SuperFine RCS ported 320 CC Big Block Chevy Cavernous port head.

      Then one of my bs’ers will expound on the HunkyChunky DBS 360 CC Billet Big Block Chevy Grand Canyon head and then something else and weak willed or easily led astray will agree with #1……then flip to #2…..and right on down the line. This is just hot rod stuff and not life or death.

      BUT, that is the guy an O’ Mara looks for so he can work that button. Unfortunately when one of these gets on a jury, it’s a problem. I can’t imagine a stealth racist juror.

  42. Here are some Defense Lawyers ?’s.

    1. What type of legal council will Dunn be able to retrieve? Being penniless & likely unable to raise any real funds. A young lawyer trying to make a name, advocate in support of SYG, etc?

    2. Will he be held in the State Penitentiary on the other charges and have to conduct this business from there?

    3. Have you ever represented a client in a situation like this?

    Have a lovely Sunday.

  43. Malisha says:

    The “insane delusion” does show that there is method in the madness. IF Blacks are dangerous and can be identified immediately as criminalistic, one is always justified in:

    (a) Denying them a place among others;
    (b) Making them go through more self-proving exercises than others;
    (c) Refusing to give them their due;
    (d) Refusing to believe their complaints or credit their grievances;
    (e) Insisting they are defrauding the country when they try to vote;
    (f) Excluding them from benefits others enjoy;
    (g) lying about them if need be;
    (h) etc.
    (i) etc.



    (z) killing them when we feel like.

    The delusion “justified” the conditions of slavery and apartheidt. It “justified” killing Trayvon Martin. And apparently it almost “justified” killing Jordan Davis.

    Whoever benefits from this “delusion” is crazy like a Fox.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I got a few troll comments from my tweeting during deliberation yesterday. #Z is a quite common response from trolls – don’t do anything wrong and we won’t shoot you.

      Seriously delusional people who otherwise seem to be normal and I think this is what our court system is ill-equipped to handle with self-defense and SYG laws being what they are. If these laws are tightened, then it won’t be as hard to prosecute those who take lives casually.

      • Malisha says:

        RIGHT! Don’t “deserve” my killing you and you have nothing to fear. But of course, if you “deserve” my killing you, I get to tell the cops all about how bad you were and if they just don’t get it (because, for instance, they’re politically motivated to punish people who have been forced to kill deserving thugs), I’ll have to embellish a little to make them understand how deserving you were of being killed. That could put an imaginary gun in your hands very quickly.

  44. bettykath says:

    “A claim of self-defense must be evaluated according to whether a reasonable person in the same situation as the defendant would have believed himself to be in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury such that the use of deadly force in self-defense was reasonably necessary.”

    The key is “a reasonable person”. Juries are made up of self-identified “reasonable” people. There are many who would put themselves in Dunn’s position and believe, as the reasonable person that they think they are, that he really did see a weapon and really was “shxtting bricks”. (Most people, when really scared, are scared shxtless, but Dunn isn’t like most people.) That’s the obstacle. Juries are made up by one or more persons who see danger the same way as Dunn claimed.

    • Malisha says:

      Bettykath, if it were not for people like Michael Dunn, we would all have to make our houses out of wood and adobe.

    • Yes. and too many jurors assume that the presumption of innocence requires them to believe everything the defendant says.

      Ain’t so.

      Jurors can evaluate the statements of a defendant just as they would any other witness and decide that his statements are not credible.

      Whether lying or not, a defendant has a powerful motive to lie to witnesses, the police and to the jury. That motive should be considered in evaluating his credibility together with the circumstantial evidence.

      Dunn’s failure to mention the gun to his fiancee and his lie to the police and perjured testimony to the jury about contacting his friend in law enforcement to discuss his predicament before the police contacted him was all the circumstantial evidence that any juror should have needed to overcome the presumption of innocence and conclude that he was lying.

      He looked them in the eye and lied under oath!

      What the hell is wrong with the jurors who bought into the bogus self-defense claim?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Why can’t some instruction about lying be included in jury instructions? Why are modern jurors so prone to accept the defendant’s word in cases like this (other than racist reasons or being of the same gun and run mindset?)

        • Malisha says:

          I would think every single jury instruction should include a proviso that only the jurors can decide about the credibility of witnesses to EVERYTHING. They should be given to understand that although the judge decides who is COMPETENT to testify and who is QUALIFIED to testify, they gt to judge the credibility based on certain rational criteria, including but not limited to motive to lie.

        • Don’t know, but there is a stock instruction given in every jury trial in the country that instructs jurors on how to evaluate the credibility of any witness. It sets forth a list of factors to consider such as bias or prejudice, opportunity to observe, and prior inconsistent statements.

          This instruction was given in the Dunn case and discussed by the prosecution in closing argument.

        • racerrodig says:

          “Why can’t some instruction about lying be included in jury instructions?”

          They are in a way. The judge instructed them (paraphrase) that they need not believe the defendant and that his testimony CAN BE EXCLUDED and you have to evaluate his credibility. It would be prejudicial to come out and say he has every reason to lie, don’t buy a word of it.

      • bettykath says:

        Did Guy include this in his closing? e.g. Look closely at what the defendant has told you. Look at the evidence from other witnesses. Where they conflict, you get to decide which is telling the truth. Keep in mind that the person who has the most to gain or lose is the defendant.

    • dianetrotter says:

      Racist jurors thought process… “He’s white. Why would he lie about the thug. The thug looks like a gansta. He looks like he could have had a gun to me.”

  45. Trained Observer says:

    Not to shoot this down or anything since the script is excellent, but music at the end is way too loud. Be glad Michael Dunn’s not around to take care of things.

    • Oh! Oops, very sorry, I just put it on again, and I can hear it now. On that subject, I also found that the sound was really high, during the trial. I must have had my volume down to 10, in some places!

      • Trained Observer says:

        My sound is all over the map, depending what’s pulled up. Especially You Tube stuff. But even when I’m unexpectedly blasted, it never occurs to me to pull out a gun

        So many of the lines above are priceless “I’ve read Roots”… “I’m ot racist because I’m dating a black girl” … Howevr, my fave is “I’m not racist, BUT ….” .

        • Some of the statements are not-so-subtly subtle forms of “some of my best friends are …”
          I agree, I love the “I’m not racists, BUT…”

          • racerrodig says:

            The one that slays me is the “Why do you ignore the black on black crime”

            Uhhhhhhmmmmm, who’s ignoring it ?? Certainly not anyone interested in justice.

            Note to race baiting hate mongers : Why do you ignore white on white crime ??

            Why don’t you guys chime in on the movie theater shootings….both of them……and Sandy Hook…..nary a mention other than “it was his mom’s fault”

            2 can play this “game”

          • Someone on twitter was trying to argue that the media only airs white-on-black murders. I pointed out Kelly Thomas. He said that didn’t count, because it involves police officers. I pointed out Phillip Chism. He said Chism has not gotten the attention of Z and D. I said Chism had not yet been to trial.

            In a last ditch effort to save face, the tweeter said, “You brought it up.”

            That was a lie. Of course. It’s like, when reality does not suit, make up some fiction.

        • A one hundred percent true story. We were in an office waiting on an appointment for me. A woman was there, with one, or two kids, and we got to talking. She described, as one would describe checking the mail, her father getting a shotgun and shooting a young black man in Arkansas, I think it was. The young black male had come to the door, because, I think if I am not mistaken, the boy had a pre-arranged date with one of the man’s daughters.

          The young man was injured but not killed, and the father got away, because he “knew” the sheriff and “the right people.”

          We sat in silence, listening to the woman speak about the n word this and the n word that, and how nasty the n’s are.

          Then, she leaned in and said, “You know, I am not a racist or anything but there’s blacks and then there’s n’s.”

          We sat there, stunned.

          • Trained Observer says:

            Unbelievable, except that sadly that’s all too believable.

          • It was amazing. And real. Other thing we saw? On the bookshelf at a local charity? A manual, guidebook- for the KKK. Yup. And what’s amazing is, I believe the manual has a similar sort of disclaimer, like , hey man, we are not racists, but…

          • Two sides to a story says:

            The Treestump types. They’re not racist, and their best friend, wife, husband, etc. is black, Mexican, Chinese, etc., but those gosh darn black kids just act like animals . . . : / I mean, unless these folks put this in writing or you can catch them on tape, what do you do with it during a criminal trial?

          • Well I think for one thing, voir dire needs to be taken very, very seriously. For example it was a spectacular failure (or else it was totally on purpose) to let B37 sit on that previous jury. Her statement that characterized demonstrations as “riots” was blatant and not in the least bit subtle, straight-forward fiction that only would be characterized as such, by a racist mind. There were no riots. That was an ‘insane delusion.’

          • I think questionnaires designed by experts to expose hypocrisy and false statements should be used in all cases in which race is or might be an issue.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            fred says

            I think questionnaires designed by experts to expose hypocrisy and false statements should be used in all cases in which race is or might be an issue.

            YES! and i know by my education and positions held that there are people perfectly capable of doing just this.

            YOU listening ms. corey?

          • Malisha says:

            It’s a very common kind of racism/sexism for the person to set himself/herself up as the judge of the “inferior group” and to call himself/herself not prejudiced because s/he judges SOME of them to be NOT-[bad, as the group is assumed to be]. At a Public Health Service conference on violence against women back in the 1990s (Charlottesville, VA) the hotel in which the conference was held (three-day conference so we were in the hotel over a weekend) there was a guy in the gift shop who suddenly began to lecture us on violence against women. He said that he had never had to beat a lady. But he had beaten his ex-wife because she was NO LADY. He had a wife now who was every inch a lady so he was not guilty of violence against women. ONLY against those FEMALES who needed it, see? So I said to him, “How did you come to be the judge of which women needed to be slapped around?” He said that he had treated his ex-wife well, like a gentleman, but she had not lived up to the proper standard. I suggested that if SHE were the judge, she would probably say that HE had not been a gentleman and therefore she would have had the right to beat HIM. I could see his rage; he didn’t want to continue the conversation because he apparently didn’t want complaints to the hotel management about his misconduct with the PHS folks who were paying a nice price for the hotel.

            But the idea that there are some non-n Blacks and some non-b women is born of the idea that the speaker has the absolute right to judge.

            What is being taken away from FoDung is his right to judge. He will find that difficult in the House of Thugs in which he will spend the next 75 years.

          • This:

            ” He said that he had never had to beat a lady. But he had beaten his ex-wife because she was NO LADY.”

            says it all.

          • racerrodig says:

            I can believe it……not even surprised having seen more than enough racism in my family.

  46. Another question. Why didn’t Angela Corey bring up ‘thug?’

    Why did she not bring in those letters?

    I’ll just stop there, but suffice it to say, I am not exactly a huge Angela Corey fan.

    • Trained Observer says:

      I’m back and forth on Corey. Yet surely she’s learning that ignoring the thug elephant hasn’t been effective.

      Guess we’ll find out at retrial. She was pretty definite on that at last night’s post verdict presser. What is the estimate on the when earliest possible retrial could take place?

      What a nightmare for weeping Rhonda … trying to remember what she said before amid all those tears and now facing doing it again.

      • Fred mentioned possibly a retrial this year. I asked him because, according to wiki, Angela Corey’s term goes till 2016, and I asked if retrial would happen before that. He said, “Oh, yes.”

        I can’t get around the GZ fiasco- it is as if she utterly ignored all of the discovery on purpose. Plus, Marissa Alexander, and also, I don’t think it’s anything to boast about, her trying two or three hundred juveniles as adults. I don’t see what’s to brag about on that. note- I read her wiki- that was the info I got, but granted, I am not in Florida, don’t know Florida politics. She was obviously elected, so somebody is really happy with her.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Corey

        • roderick2012 says:

          “I can’t get around the GZ fiasco- it is as if she utterly ignored all of the discovery on purpose.”

          What doesn’t make sense to me is why Corey called Alan Dershowitz and verbally handed him his ass for almost an hour if she were planning to throw the case?

          Was she angry at him for calling BS on her charging document and it exposed the fact that she wasn’t serious about gaining a conviction against Piglet?

          What changed between that time and the trial to make them throw the case?

          • I have no idea. But on this case here? How fucked up is it, that we are sitting here, saying, “Thank God he was shooting at those other kids! As they were fleeing. Sure, could have killed ’em all, but man alive, thank goodness he shot at them and missed!”

            How crazy is that?

          • Two sides to a story says:

            Obviously a lot of the people who voted Corey into office also feel that Fogen and Dunn are innocent and that all the juveniles she’s tried as adults are super-human thugs needing to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law as adults no matter what biology or psychology says.

            It’s tragic that prosecutors tweak their cases to fit political pressures or presumed prejudices.

          • roderick2012 says:

            True. Corey’s a Tepublican and she has to balance seeking ‘justice’ and pleasing her constituency.

          • Two sides to a story says:

            PS Crane, it’s just flipping crazy that we have to be happy that he continued shooting. Utterly mind-bending.

        • Barbershoptalker says:

          I am not in Florida, don’t know Florida politics. She was obviously elected, so somebody is really happy with her.

          Well Crane I am here in Jacksonville, and I can tell you

          1) she was the of the same folks who think all young black men are thugs
          2) she announced coming into office that she was going to make it her business to rid the streets of these young law breakers (thugs spoken politically correct) whom 95% happen to be black.
          3) I have not seen one case where the young man got off, because she put up a argument so strong to in sure the jury got it right.
          4) have anyone ever heard of Governor Rick Scott?

          • Rick Scott…
            That welfare drug testing law scam guy? Yup, same one.

            Learning a lot, thank you. Taking all of the information into consideration, things are making more sense. Next thing you know, Rick Scott will pardon Michael Dunn. Somehow that would not even surprise me.

      • Malisha says:

        If it was not a nightmare for Rhonda to walk out of that convenience store towards “just Michael” after he had shot an innocent unarmed kid in a parking lot, and then to ride back with him, and then to have pizza and sleep with him, and then to go home with him, and not do anything about it, and if that was not the worst nightmare on earth for that incomprehensible skin-crawler creepy perpetual ignorant child, I don’t know what else can be. She shoulda woke up long before THIS.

    • roderick2012 says:

      Why didn’t Angela Corey bring up ‘thug?’

      Because she like John Guy are closet racists.

      I was stunned that John Guy stated that Jordan Davis had a big mouth.

      Why would any prosecutor characterize the victim of the defendant that way especially when the defendants is claiming that the victim threatened him verbally?

      Just like he conceded that Trayvon had punched Piglet in his snout during his opening statement.

      Why was O’Mara’s job for him?

      • Had not remembered John Guy bringing up ‘big mouth.’
        Excellent point. I am really hating this putting the victim on trial in any way, shape or form stuff, in these cases.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I was ticked by both incidents. You’d never hear a defense attorney dissing their client in any way favourable to the prosecution.

      • J4TMinATL says:

        Because it provides an explanation why Dunn went bonkers. Racial cleansing.

      • @Roderick:

        ^5! I swore I would not follow this trial as I became to emotionally involved in Fogen’s trial, so I backed off. However, this is just as i predicted: Another Fogen jury who cannot see black males as human beings.

        I am hurt and angry about what I see transpiring in America, especially Florida. White males can make claims against black males and the white male is automatically believed by the system. This smacks of the old south and when black males were lynched with impunity during the Jim Crow era and during reconstruction. Black were routinely intimated and threatened by whites. It was their world against yours and whites always won.

        Roderick you made such a profound comment about Corey and Guy. Corey and Guy are closet racists. I knew this and believed this since the Fogen trial when they didn’t even make an attempt to prosecute the case. They had so much evidence that they failed to bring into evidence just like this trial. I have read about several cases that these two prosecuted against whites who murdered other whites that they prosecuted, and they didn’t hold back any evidence. These two, don’t care about justice for blacks. Why would Guy even make a statement abou the victim having a BIG MOUTH? Was he there? Why would he reinforce such a damaging statement which was not true? Is he working for the defense? Would he have stated that if the victim was white? America unfortunately, has a serious problem characterizing black males as crminally inclined thugs, prone to violence and born to commit crimes. Black males are to be feared at every cost by whites in America. That is the message that America is given.

        I pray for the life of my own son and nephews when they step out the door each and every day.

      • racerrodig says:

        “I was stunned that John Guy stated that Jordan Davis had a big mouth. ”

        I hear ya, but remember the other 3 kids in the Dodge said the same thing, and probably said so in their depositions. His girl friend said it would be like Jordan to mouth off to someone.

        You know damn well Strolla would bring it up and the worst thing would be having depositions where they said he was a big mouth and then trying to deny it on the stand.

        These are kids an I guarantee they don’t have enough life experiences to survive a serious beating by any decent lawyer. I do expert testimony and reports for several lawyers on consumer fraud civil cases and one of my strong points is being about 5 miles ahead of the opposing counsel.

        The best trick is to bring that up before the defense does because it goes a long way to credibility and it shows the jury we can admit this may not be St. Jordan, but he’s a normal kid.

        The proof is, it worked.

        • roderick2012 says:

          The problem is that the Dunn claimed that Jordan verbally threatened him.

          I don’t believe it’s a good idea for the prosecution to remind the jury on this point.

          Guy’s statement could have been interpreted by the jurors that he agreed that Jordan did verbally threaten Dunn.

          • racerrodig says:

            Guy was very clear on what he said Jordan said and stated that yep….words were fired back and forth. It would have been worse if the state acted as if Jordan said and did nothing.
            At no point did Guy say Jordan threatened him and fell back onto the other witnesses, the 3 kids and Smith, who all said they never heard a threat.

            This fact did not hurt the case. I’ve seen this tactic many times and the proof is that it worked.

            Don’t make him out to be perfect, which is what Strolla did with Duuhhnnn. The All American, wrapped in an American Flag..his exact words.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          i’m with you on that one racer. his friends stated as much, it is not a truth that needs to be kept under cover, when it appeared as evidence.

          i just don’t see it as shocking. teens can be mouthy. i see it with my own and remember my own years as a teen. reasonable adults know this and as a rule, do not hold it against teens, it is all part of the process of learning and growing, which sadly, JD will not ever get to grow past.

    • Boyd says:

      I think they have no clue how to convict in these type cases, What they’re used to doing is not working. The court system is not blind.

      From a laymen’s point of view the justice system is not fair and they’re dragging their feet to fix it.

      • Yup. There was once a time in my life, before I was ever exposed to the criminal justice system, that I actually believed that courtrooms were venues for truth, plus all that crap about having a day in court, and ‘justice will be served,’ …the guilty will be convicted…the innocent never are…all of that. I believed all of it.

        Not any more.

        Justice is blind? The truth just is, in an American courtroom?

        Not by a long shot. And it appears to be getting worse, not better.

    • racerrodig says:

      I thought I heard that she was going to use them in the retrial, or at later date…sentencing maybe ??

  47. Multiple people are saying that it was next to impossible to convict Dunn with first degree murder because one can’t disprove that he felt threatened. Is this true?

    • No, I don’t believe that.

      Depends on the jury.

      M1 was more difficult to prove because the prosecution had to prove premeditation.

      Some members of the jury voted against convicting him of anything on the murder charge (apparently because they believe he killed Davis in self-defense); others voted to convict him of M2 (apparently rejecting self-defense).

      Just because a defendant claims that he felt threatened doesn’t mean that he felt threatened.

    • MDH says:

      That view hits the heart of this article.

      One has to accept an unsubstantiated view as reasonably true in order be required to prove it not true beyond a reasonable doubt.

      For example, if Dunn had claimed he saw Napoleon Bonaparte with a gun pointed at him and the way he said it looked like he believed it, then one would include that his view is a paranoid delusion that no reasonable person would take seriously. And that, as they say, would be that.

      Why is it that many accept that is reasonable to assume, without a shred of evidence, that a car of black males will have a gun and that they will attack with the gun at the slightest provocation?

      Because they are all thugs?

      If that was the case, then there should be about one million murders per annum committed by black males on white males.

      Hell, the racist NYC stop and frisk clearly shows that white males are more likely to have a gun than black males.

      Zimmerman and Dunn anecdotally show that delusional males with a gun are dangerous.

      That is as bad as going up to a person of the Jewish faith and starting to ask questions about banking?

      Because they are all bankers?

      Or should I ask a gay person about fashion because they are all experts at that?

      One sad aspect of the history of our nation is that homosexuality and, to a lesser degree, inter-racial marriage were considered mental disorders.

      In reality, homophobia and racism are.

      And the sooner we come to grips with it, the better our society will be.

    • Malisha says:

      “Feeling” threatened is not the standard. REASONABLE BELIEF that his life and/or limb was in real danger is the standard. you don’t get that from a few F-bombs and a teen-age talk-back.

      • J4TMinATL says:

        Then throw in “the danger facing the defendant need not have been actual” and it’s a clusterfupp. Remember too that Dunn had to make up a plausible story that Davis was about to commit a felony (attempted assault, attempted battery and attempted to attempt murder). All 3 were defined in jury instructions.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          That’s just mind-blowing. How can danger be virtual – or not real – and still be considered reasonable?

      • And this is what that lawyer on the news glossed over. It was really misleading, I thought.

      • racerrodig says:

        In some states the self defense laws are worded to the effect that the danger must be real and not imagined. I clearly remember when my dad was a cop going to court to see him testify in a case he was involved in as the arresting officer of a murderer.

        The killer went the self defense road but the law was worded that the imminent threat must be real and not imagined before using deadly force and that I believe should be the law period. The person he killed was not armed and there were a few witnesses and as I remember they all had a slightly different spin…..no weapon !! no defensive wounds…..no threats, verbal or otherwise.

  48. Question, I am confused, on sentencing.
    Why is MSM reporting 60 years?

    • bettykath says:

      b/c they don’t know any better. One person said 60 yrs and they had their story.

      • Funny how they do that. My mother told me the Seattle PI had to retract a story about 700,000 people coming to Seattle to celebrate the Seahawks win. That story was false. There were a lot of people, but no where near that many. The PI said, somehow the story got started. Next thing they knew, it ended up in print. It had been repeated so often, that no one fact-checked the true numbers.

      • Malisha says:

        Just as: In the Fogen case one stupid forget-to-fact-check reporter wrote that there had been “15 burglaries, 8 thefts and one other shooting” in RTL in the year before Fogen murdered Trayvon Martin and then it was repeated over a thousand times in three days. It became litany. It was untrue. There had been only six actual burglaries (four of which had been solved by Feb. 26, 2012), and NO OTHER SHOOTING. NO OTHER SHOOTING.

        Once they say something they believe it to be true.

        • MDH says:

          Even if that lie was true, it shows how racists use propaganda to poison minds.

          Anyhow, I looked up the death rate for automobile accidents and converted to how murder rates are reported X per 100,000.

          It turns out that the MV death rate is about 24 per 100,000.

          The murder rate for the USA, taken as a whole, is 6 per 100,000

          For the African American sub-group, I believe it is 18 per 100,000

          I guess Chicken George ought to shoot his shruck, eh?

        • racerrodig says:

          Exactly. Look at when one of the race baiting hate mongers posted a picture of the rapper Game as that of Trayvon and everyone of those right wings sites pounded it, how hard it was to dispel it. Even to this day I get the same shit…oh, look, this is the real St. Trayvon….”

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I agree, Bettykath. Media often get their facts skewed, writing fast to meet deadlines. Plus, with the charges varying from minimum to maximum on each count, I think the judge has the discretion to choose min, max or somewhere inbetween. I could be wrong because some states will give you an auto max if you don’t plead guilty and end up with a guilty verdict.

      “There is no such thing as a reasonable insane delusion.”

      And 21st century racism seems much more insane and delusional than the simple garden variety racism of the past.e past. Or maybe it isn’t – after all slave masters lived closely with their slaves. But it seems as if many 21st century racists don’t even know they’re racist – they have friends of all races, etc. – at least on their terms, as in all act white and show deference to whites.

      Unless courts have hard evidence like Dunn’s letters, it seems truly to bring race into cases when it’s only a suspected elephant in the room. When it’s a matter of well, I shot this black kid because black kids were breaking in – or I shot this kid who told me to eff off and he seemed like a thug – well . . . it’s difficult for anyone of reason and even more so for the courts to fight with that type of perception even if we’re pretty sure we know what lies beneath it.

      But Brevard County had clear evidence of Dunn’s racism and should have found a way to step up to the plate. Civil rights issues shouldn’t just be the provenance of the Federal government.

      On the other hand, I can see that if all criminal cases are handled with the attention that they deserve and that all criminal acts against anyone of any race are handled in precisely the same way, that we don’t need to worry about the racial aspects even if these are present. But that’s pretty dicey. It almost – ALMOST – happened in Dunn’s case. It happened halfway.

      So Corey and Co. will have to start from square one to retry the case (well almost – they have a good framework and as Corey says, will have to analyse the strengths and weaknesses of Round 1) even though it’s probably at great cost to taxpayers and also redundant, since Dunn is unlikely to be released from prison except in a coffin.

      Jordan Davis and his family deserve a re-do – no one should ever be subjected to frontier justice based upon perceived fears, and most especially when these perceived fears are based on racist beliefs or other delusional beliefs.

      I think we also need to think about what a jury of one’s peers means – if society is not dispensing equal justice for black and other minority defendants via all-white and mostly-white juries – and we know this is not the case in many, many instances, then the racial makeup of the jury is going to have to be purposely chosen.

      Have a nice Sunday, all!

      Happy Birthday, Jordan Davis! We will continue to witness until justice is served.

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  50. Racism is not just a set of invalid assumptions and bad ideas. It’s a mode of perception.

  51. racerrodig says:

    In short, avoiding the topic in a trial enables the future racists to explore more uncharted waters.

    Fogen & Dunn……text book racists of that there is no doubt.

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