Dunn Trial: What happens if there is a hung jury?

Friday, February 14, 2014

Good afternoon:

People have been asking questions regarding what happens if the jury cannot unanimously agree on guilt or innocence (i.e, hung jury)? The analysis goes count by count.

(1) A verdict requires unanimous agreement. A verdict on a count is a final determination of guilt or innocence as to that count, regardless of what happens on the other counts. For example, the jury could reach a verdict on some counts, but not others.

(2) The jury cannot consider lesser-included instructions regarding a particular count or charge, unless it has failed to reach a verdict on that count or charge.

(3) If the jury cannot reach a verdict on a count, even after serially considering each of the lesser-included instructions, the foreperson will so advise the court.

(4) The court may order the jury to continue deliberating or send them the following question:

Do each of you unanimously agree that further deliberations as to count (fill in the blank) would not produce a verdict?

If the answer is “No,” he will order them to continue deliberating on that count.

If the answer is “Yes,” he will declare the jury hung on that count.

(5) At no time may the court ask or the foreperson reveal the status of the vote or describe the disagreement.

(6) Federal courts and some state courts have what is called an “Allen charge” in which the court tells the jury that a lot of time, effort and expense went into trying this case and it should accordingly make every reasonable effort to reach a verdict. Don’t know if Florida follows this practice.

(7) The prosecution can, but is not required, to retry a count where the jury could not reach a verdict.

261 Responses to Dunn Trial: What happens if there is a hung jury?

  1. Soulcatcher says:

    Let me expand on that. People like Fogen and Dunn are not remorseful, they get high off the fact they did something and got away with it. Like shoplifting, many don’t do it because they have no money, it’s a thrill to them when they get away doing it. Dunns old neighbor talked about him ripping off the company he worked for and even his parents, he laughed about ripping them off. They could care less about the other people, it’s only about them. They always justify their actions by blaming someone else. Most people would have regrets and would be haunted at the fact of taking someone’s life, especially a child or teen, but others like these piss ants want you to believe they are the victims and thank god they are alive. As a bonus they rid the world of two violents thugs. (because they wanted to, not because they had to.)

  2. Sophia33 says:

    Let’s just pray for Jordan Davis’ parents tonight. This has got to be excruciating for them.

    • Liza says:

      They already have their life sentence, sorrow until the day they are buried six feet into the earth.

      The jury, unfortunately, hesitates in giving Dunn the life sentence he has earned.

      • Sophia33 says:

        You got that right!

      • Soulcatcher says:

        I disagree. When you have a person who has no regrets, who would do the same thing again, I don’t think they feel any sorrow. Fogen says he is not haunted, and when asked why, he replies “I don’t know why.” I can imagine if Dunn is aquited, he will go snort a line, fix himself a tall one, call a prostitute, and have himself a good laugh. Somewhere along the line, he’ll slapp around the “love of his life,” take her money, and Charlie too.

  3. MDH says:

    I need to read that. I see it referenced often. Besides, my daughters need insights that I can never convey.

    • Malisha says:

      It’s amazing how people who should feel ashamed — don’t.
      Astonishing, amazing, shocking, horrifying, incomprehensible.
      More so and more so every day.

  4. Boyd says:

    well I’m thinking if you feel you’re being harassed, press charges……get names, My advice is to be handcuffed as soon as the Police approach you. I’ve done that, anytime I get pulled over late at night FOR NOTHING!!!! I tell them it’s for my safety, I make it clear, it’s YOU that I’m afraid of.

    Where I live on Pa, they’re notorious for pulling over Black men, within 2-3 minutes 2-3 police cars are there. Now what did you do? NOTHING. Once they said my tires did not come to a complete stop on a right turn red light, I said it did, they said it oscillated once! Viola, 3 police cars are there. Then the next thing, flashlights are shined in my car blah blah blah. Later, A white friend of mine told me the cops were told to harass all the black people so that they would move.
    oh and they had nice basketball courts , but the Mayor told the park people to not take care of the courts because they don’t want blacks there. well, Blacks and whites played together at the courts.

    It’s getting to the point where an argument on the street it should result in a call to the cops. with all this I thought he had a stick crapola If I get flipped the finger while driving maybe I should call the cops.

  5. colin black says:

    He lied about every thing he lied on the stand in front of the jurours about phoneing his LE Neighbour with a badge an every thing about the incident?

    He lied about telling Rhonda they had threatened him with death an gun ect.

    Its not rocket science.

    • Boyd says:

      America is falling apart

      • anita says:

        Yes, & it is very sad.I think people like us have to keep striving for equality in every form. Income, races, women, gays. These crazy teabaggers, racists, & nut job christians are the problem. I was raised a christian, but liberal, loving, accepting of all. Sometimes I cannot believe the way people think & act. I’m glad to be back commenting with all of you. I had to take a long break after the fogen debacle. I’ve been following all along. We are all right in our opinions.

  6. jodiwankanobi says:

    If dunn thought someone pulled a gun on him then that is another reason he should have called the cops…to report the crime against him. He didn’t report these thugs threatening him with a gun because he never saw one.

  7. Boyd says:

    why do the instructions to the jury have to be so challenging. As soon as he rattled off a 30 minute set of instructions I knew something could go wrong.

    So if they are deadlocked on 1 count but agree on the others he walks free. if so my wife who’s a quaker is right, people have to riot down there.

  8. Brandy says:

    Why are they wasting everyone’s time. If they cant change the mind or minds of whoever is holding out, it is not going to change tomorrow. They should of just said they cant agree have the judge declare a mistrial and call it a day!

    • anita says:

      Maybe you’re right, because the longer they go, the chances are some decent guilty jurors votes could possibly be changed.

    • Malisha says:

      I don’t think we know there is a “hold-out” or that there is a problem convincing someone of guilt. I think on this one, we don’t have the added factor of the guards helping the judge get the jury to acquit; we may have some real complications happening in there. I’m not ready to guess at what’s going on in that weird little place where those 12 are meeting.

    • bettykath says:

      Patience, Brandy. If they have a split jury on at least one charge, nd the difference of opinion continues in the discussion of the other charges, they just need a rest. They are trying to do the right job. Give them time.

    • Liza says:

      Here’s why I’m losing hope for this jury to do what is right. The physical evidence is irrefutable. Some folks on the jury, the more enlightened, have obviously tried to explain the evidence to the less enlightened. It hasn’t worked. So the ones who won’t convict Dunn are either as dumb as ten thousand rocks or they are racist or both. They’ve made it black versus white and that is what racists do. Let’s not kid ourselves.

      I still hope I’m wrong though.

  9. Liza says:

    I’m having bad thoughts about the kind of people who may be on this jury. I grew up in Jacksonville, I know these people, I’m related to people who I believe would let Dunn walk. I hope and pray that I am wrong. I do have faith in the two black women and that the jury will hang on the first count of M1. The prosecution would get another chance and would probably do better. I do not believe Dunn will walk away from this, but this struggle really should illuminate a few things about the depth of the racism and hatred that still prevails in the Deep South.

    Much like Richard Wright, I had to leave the South to understand what it did to me and what it does to all people who live there.

    • Where’s the link to the jury makeup?

    • MDH says:

      I read Native Son when I was about 12 years old. I put it up there with Sea Wolf by Jack London. I liked how Wright showed the latent racism held by leftist whites. If I remember correctly, the Communist boy friend of Mary has a rather lurid interest in the sex life of Bigger Thomas. What struck me was the realism of the prose. It is amazing that all the things Wright brought up back then still resonate today.

      • Liza says:

        The last three paragraphs of “Black Boy” are, to me, some of the most beautifully written in all of literature. But I grew up in the Jim Crow South and during the civil rights era.

        All of this, it is just so sad. It is 2014 and a murdering piece of garbage like Michael Dunn still finds support among his peers.

  10. Brandy says:

    This is such bullshit! Only in Florida

  11. colin black says:

    If they had indeed hit a wall an imovable object say eleven for conviction an one no way hose hold out for a not guilty.

    They would know the hold out would convey his position ie I am saying not guilty untill hell freezes over.

    At this point they would declare a hung jury.I beleive the prevarication an dithering from this jury Is a smoke screen for later.

    Well gee it wast an easy dissision we thought long an hard.What if he realy did think he saw a stick/barrell of a gun.

    Who knows how you would act blah bah the rest of his life behind bars blah blah for a possable missunderstanding.

    An they wouldnt let us talk to Bendi blah did the best blah under blah difficult circunmstances .
    You ever been locked up in a 5 star Hotel?

  12. bettykath says:

    hmmm, could be they deadlocked on the first count and thought they might reach agreement on the others but they have “hit a wall”. This may be a hung jury. 😦 but better than a not guilty on all counts.

    • Sophia33 says:

      This is true Betty. A hung jury is better than a not guilty.

    • J4TMinATL says:

      Sux ass

    • Malisha says:

      It can’t really be based on whether FoDUNG was scared; it has to be based on whether he was REASONABLY scared, right? Did it really say in the jury instructions that it should be based on whether HE was scared? (Forgive me for asking but if the jury got questions, I get one too, right?)

    • lurker says:

      Actually, we–and some reporters–have assumed a four one split with deadlock on one. That’s really reading a lot into the question. Presumably the number was hypothetical.

  13. J4TMinATL says:

    Shit

  14. sparger says:

    I am convinced there is one jackass who believes everyone is lying except Dunn,

  15. Malisha says:

    Question: “What if a guy is really afraid of thugs? Is it OK for him to shoot up a car-full of them in a parking lot THEN?”

  16. Jury has a question:

    We have reached a wall. Are we able to go home for the night?

    Answer: Yes.

  17. colin black says:

    This Jury is milking it an messing headgame central.
    There going to let this peice of excreament walk.

    • ay2z says:

      No no, they would have concluded today. (that’s what I hope for of course)

    • Rachael says:

      I don’t know if they are going to let him walk, but I don’t know what you mean by milking it. Being part of a sequestered jury is not a fun place to be, especially when there is disagreement, and on a holiday and 3-day weekend, I don’t know why they would milk it.

  18. Sophia33 says:

    They supposedly have another question

  19. J4TMinATL says:

    They are done for the night

  20. ay2z says:

    They have a verdict!!!?!!!!!???????????????????

    • ay2z says:

      ” We have Reached a wall for the evening”

      Judge says they are an ‘admirable group, they are clearly taking this thing very seriously. He says he will tell them that when this has all concluded. Judge will have the jury come in but not take seats, just huddle and he will say thanks for their service for the day and they will hear him say ‘yes you can go’.

      Judge does give them thanks, he didn’t wait for conclusion. They willl start at 9 AM, but if they arrive earlier, they will go right in, not sit around until 9.

  21. J4TMinATL says:

    Another question

    Shit

  22. Trisha0620 says:

    another question

  23. anita says:

    I haven’t commented for several months, but I just have to vent this aft. I’m very worried about the white men on that jury. The jurors for guilty on whatever counts must stick to their decisions. This man is a POS & menace to society. He’s so dangerous. I’m shocked it took this many yrs. for him to do something to finally be arrested & charged. I guess he just always scared & intimidated everybody around & they were to scared to ever cross him. I hope to hell he’s convicted on all charges, we’ll see soon, I hope. The waiting is so hard. I feel so badly for Jordan’s family. They deserve justice for their son.

  24. colin black says:

    ok I got one thr grind keeps crashing.

    • crazy1946 says:

      colin black, darn, you finally get a good link and they shut down for the night… So much for your four leaf clover working….

  25. ay2z says:

    I wonder how Dunn would have reacted to being handled on the stand, by a highly skilled and don’t see him coming, young and younger looking, black male lawyer. Even better, the right female lawyer, any race, who Dunn doesn’t see coming.

    • Sophia33 says:

      That’s a great question. Dunn reminds of man in our condo association. He hates for his authority to be challenged. Particularly by a minority or a woman. I remember one board meeting where he said to a woman, “DO YOU HEAR ME TALKING WOMAN!” I knew then that he had problems with women. It’s scary dealing with people like that. Like Dunn’s neighbor, if the the guy in my condo association got caught up in an incident like this with a woman or an well-educated minority, I could see him behaving the same way. When Dunn’s neighbor said that, it resonated with me so well. There are some people who feel superior and who feel that you shouldn’t challenge their authority.

      • Malisha says:

        Yeah remember Dunn being interviewed by one white cop and one Black cop and when he gave his little demonstration of firing a gun he pointed his pantomime-gun at the Black cop?

      • Sophia33 says:

        And to clarify, the reason I said well-educated minority with regards to my neighbor, is the fact it seems to bother him when he is dealing with a black or Hispanic person with education. He tries to belittle, and when that doesn’t work, he tries to make up rules and when that doesn’t work he loses his temper. Then he falls on the “I have minorities who work for me so I can’t be racist”. If you don’t need to work for him, then he has a problem.

        • crazy1946 says:

          Sophia33:

          ““I have minorities who work for me so I can’t be racist”.

          You can bet that he does, but you can also bet that he pay’s them less than the white members of his staff… But in his eyes he is not a racist, because he is only paying “those people” what they are worth, maybe 2/3 of a persons wages, or some other rationalization… I call his words BS and rubbish… Equal worth dictates equal pay…

          • Sophia33 says:

            He has expressed his hatred of unions and people who won’t work for less than minimum wage. I remember it distinctly when he came to my condo for a meeting. The 2008 presidential debate was on. And they were talking about immigration. And he made a comment about Americans working for less than minimum wage and said we didn’t need minimum wage. It has gotten so bad, that my mother has told me to stop arguing with him because he told a boldfaced lie and I called him on it with the bylaws. He went ballistic. Every time I deal with him I can hear him saying to another owner, “WOMAN I TALKING. DO YOU HEAR ME TALKING WOMAN?!”. Like I said, Dunn’s ex neighbor, Hendrix made me think of that. You have to have been there to understand.

  26. colin black says:

    no link anyone got a link fast?

  27. Sophia33 says:

    I can’t believe it is taking them this long. It’s disgusting.

  28. J4TMinATL says:

    They are having dinner at courthouse

  29. ay2z says:

    “…. And I figure you will get out soon and can make a book or movie about this — I sure hope so. Not for anything but some vindication/recognition of what you have been put through, and most importantly, so people wake up and see how bad reverse discrimination has become!! SOAP BOX, PLEASE!”

    Letter from older male friend to Dunn

    reverse discrimination for the charges, victim of the state, victim of the boys, victim of the SA, victim of everyone who is black, victim of everyone who is not black but reverses discrimination, victim of the two black women on the jury, victim of the other two minority non white jurors, victim of the 4 white women jurors, victim of the 4 misguided white male jurors, victim of every black kid thug in jail, victim of the whole black sub-culture (again his letters), victim of the liberal press bastards, victim of all the press bastards, victim of Judge BIAS, victim of his own lawyer who fails to streamline his case and aggressively move it faster enough, victim of the prosecution team, victim of proprietary software delays in translation, victim of them who have made Dunn and co. (the minority loudmouth bigots of course) ‘ the new minority’, (how true is this statement, the bigots ARE a minority, just vocal), victim of the government playing games, victim of the dumb guards who do no tlisten to him when he offers how to fix the broken phones, victim of all the real serious thugs in Atlanta, victim as political prisoner, victim of bond denying judges, victim of the courts, victim of his lawyer failing to get the expert witnesses he told him to, including ballistics, ptsd, and any others, failure of his lawyer to meet Dunn’s closely defined goals, failure to get an expert to testify on the ‘sub-culture, especially on violence’ (quote unquote),victim of Cousin Vinny, victim of Rhonda for testifying, victim of Rhonda for controlling his actions after the shooting, victim of Rhonda for not lying about a phantom gun, victim of Corey preparing Rhonda too well, and victim of Rhonda not taking enough valium for court…..”

    Here ends the soap box with the hope that the defendant, through the jury, the justice system, becomes the victim of only one think or person, that is himself.

    • ay2z says:

      nb, the ‘victim list’ courtesy of the defendant and his letters!

      and snarky alert of course 🙂

      • anita says:

        I’m white & so is my 6 4 husband who is several yrs. older than this POS. He says he’d love to beat his ass, I’m sure my hubby could, too. He has never bullied or intimidated anyone because of his size. Real men don’t have to act that way. I hope when he gets to the prison he learns what it’s like to be afraid & “victimized”. This crap makes me sick.

    • Malisha says:

      HA HA HA HAHAHAHA HA HA HA!

      A guy who fires ten shots out of a gun in a parking lot wants to hire an expert to testify about somebody else’s

      ‘sub-culture, especially on violence’

      He himself IS a sub-culture, especially on violence. I hope he figures that out in prison.

  30. Brandy says:

    Hi Professor, sorry didn’t see your comment, before I posted mine. I agree, its the only thing that makes sense!

  31. colin black says:

    happening again global grind crashed must be action

  32. Brandy says:

    They must agree that this was not self defense, otherwise they would have no problem on whatever count they are hung up on. I think we will get a Murder 2. IMO

  33. I’m disappointed to come back from my meeting and errands and find no verdict – but sounds as if much progress has been made.

    I have an observation and perhaps many of you have discussed this already – I’ve been playing catch up in the case. Last Saturday night when I drove to Hollywood for the Kelly Thomas protest, I stopped for gas at a convenience store. Also stopped near a convenience store to buy some Valentine flowers today. Anyway, I can’t help but notice that when you’re in a parking lot with various vehicles coming and going that there are lots of shadows cast this way and that, whether during the day in broad daylight or at night under streetlamps and the lighted signs, vehicle lights, etc. as they strike gas pumps, the building roof, other vehicles, tall and short posts, etc. I notice when parking beside or near SUVs taller than my baby truck that all these things often cast long, narrow shadows and reflections cast across other vehicles doors and windows (and likely your own). I also noticed that these are quite prominent on darker vehicles with dark tinted windows.

    Let’s say that Dunn is telling the truth and he’s so damn paranoid that he really did think he saw a shotgun. I noticed that sometimes the shadows and reflections don’t even register in your mind as you’re looking at a vehicle until either some movement changes one of the reflections or shadows, or your eyes move and then a stationary reflection or shadow seems to move.

    At first I pooh-poohed Dunn’s perception entirely, then started to wonder last Saturday night and then got really excited this afternoon while sitting near a red SUV with red windows and noticed how a long thin shadow suddently seemed to move and shift and was just the right length and shape to be the barrel of a shotgun – just for the barest instant.

    I’m really hardcore about self-defense, however, and I don’t think this mistaken perception gives anyone the right to fire one shot at a car, let alone 10. What Dunn did is inexcusable.

    But this phenomena may explain trigger-happy Duh-Done’s insistence that he saw a shotgun. Added to annoyance at the music, a racist attitude, enough alcohol in to perhaps trigger a little extra irritation and paranoia, some angry words exchanged (I don’t buy the entire spiel, not with the music being turned back up again quickly),and a gun in the hands of someone who might not pass a thorough psychological exam – DISASTER.

    When are Americans going to get over glorifying the second amendment and glorifying gun ownership at all costs?

    • Trained Observer says:

      Two sides — A coked up (laced with rum and Coke) hothead might wrongly perceive. But who cares? Impaired perception is not a go-ahead for pulling out a gun and blasting away at a quartet of teenagers. .

      • Dave says:

        In this case it might be. When Judge Healey read the jury instructions he stated essentially that sela case for self defense hinged on whether DUNN believed that he was in imminent danger, not on what a “reasonable” person” would believe in that situation.

      • I absolutely agree, TO. No excuses for him, but I had a feeling I saw exactly what he was seeing in his sick mind.

        Duh-Done projected his paranoid, thuggish intent on teens out enjoying themselves who then had the misfortune to cross his twisted path.

    • Trained Observer says:

      “When are Americans going to get over glorifying the second amendment and glorifying gun ownership at all costs?” — Two sides

      Great question.

  34. I don’t see how they hang on any count, if they decide he fired in self-defense.

    Therefore, I think they have rejected self-defense and are arguing about something else.

    I also don’t see them convicting on the attempt charges and hanging on the main count because the main count drives this verdict.

  35. ay2z says:

    This does not look good for the 1st degree murder charge, or maybe even any responsibility for what the bullets did in relation to the other boys. Maybe they want to do the ‘shooting into the car’ but nothing beyond that.

    Hope I am wrong. 8 + 2 non black jurors and 2 black jurors who are women. Hope there are some strong individuals in there.

    And hope they are not confused about the state having to prove a negative, as was Dunn’s wishful plan as he outlined in one of his ranting racist, manipulative letters.

  36. The doctrine of transferred intent removes any difficulty in convicting Dunn for the Brunson shooting, but I don’t know if they gave that instruction.

    Transferred Intent:

    Assume A intends to shoot B, but not C.

    Assume A shoots and misses B, killing C.

    Q: Can A be convicted of intending to shoot C?

    A: Yes, because his intent transfers to the person he shot.

  37. Trisha0620 says:

    guys we don’t know what charge they are disagreeing on it might not even be the murder charge, don’t freak out yet,

    • sparger says:

      Its Florida. I don’t hold out a lot of hope. I hope you are right and I’m wrong.

    • Dave Hoff says:

      I hate to fear the worst, but I think they’ve cleared this lying SOB on everything but firing into a car. That’s all the state will have to left to retry him on. Doesn’t that seem more obvious than, given the makeup of this jury (no AA men), than only not being able to agree on the most serious charge. The only conscience they’re able to show is that someone thinks he should probably be found guilty for firing into a car, which no one can deny he did, but even so, there’s still some a–hat who doesn’t want to agree he even did that much?

  38. Trisha0620 says:

    oops might help if I would look at what I type before I hit send lol. I mean what are all 5 counts?

  39. Trained Observer says:

    Could some of these jurors be so misguided as to think “poor guy already has been in jail 14 months. That’s enough punishment for losing his temper.” ????

  40. Could have convicted on the main charge and 2 of the 3 attempt charges, but hung as to Brunson (who was sitting in the back seat next to Jordan), because he was shooting at Jordan.

    The 5th charge was basically shooting a gun in a public place.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Interesting and encouraging, too, for the hoped for outcome. Yet that thinking might be too sophisticated for these 12.

      And if II were Brunson, I’d be pissed off. He could easily have caught a fatal bullet the way that bastard was blasting away,

    • Dave says:

      If they agree on the murder charge why hassle over AM? Whether he’s guilty on one or two or all three counts of AM shouldn’t make any difference in the sentence and there’s a long weekend ahead.

    • ay2z says:

      Good point, but they could consider second degree attempted murder, (sounds like an oxymoron) where the first degree attempt fails to qualify because of the position of the last volley of rounds failing to point towards the rear left back seat, Brunson may have been huddled and in doing so, saved himself from becoming a direct target. This may be the one sticking point, all first degree attempts because of the direction of the bullets in volley 3, but if they accept the Dunn’s ‘tunnel vision’, those second volley rounds were intended to enter the back door and at what height? Could those higher holes have likely missed Brunson had the vehicle not been backing up as Dunn says he thought?

      That scenario of tunnel vision, means Brunson, not the front passenger, was the target of that set of bullets.

      Add to that, the final volley, and the other two boys were targetted (as well as a living Jordan Davis has he too, been hit from behind.)

      Adds up to 3

      • Dave says:

        You have to consider that if one of those bullets had hit the driver in the head (and one almost did) the truck would have crashed and they all could have been killed, along with bystanders.

  41. Trisha0620 says:

    what we all 5 counts?

  42. colin black says:

    I don’t like this development at all.

    I think there going for not guity all round an as a slight appeasement not desided on the murder charge.

  43. Not sure what to make of this.

  44. Someone is buying Michael Dunn’s BS. As I noted earlier, someone wants to hang this jury.

  45. J4TMinATL says:

    I do think the judge gave it away I don’t know if he meant to. Saying they have verdict on 4 counts out of 5.

  46. I posted these 2 messages on the other thread:

    We’re back live.

    Jury has “a question or two.”

    Can we take a 30-minute break?

    Is it possible to not reach a verdict one one count and reach a verdict on the other counts?

    Answer to both is “Yes.”

    ***

    He’s going to let the jurors deliberate as long as they want tonight and is thinking of continuing deliberations on Sunday, if they have not reached a verdict.

  47. colin black says:

    All day I waited for something to happen an then I get sound an no picture.
    Press a button to rectify an lost the entire feed pc froze up on me AN HAD TO REEBOOT.

    Missed everything so are they having a 3o min break .

  48. crazy1946 says:

    I suspect the question is about Murder 1 and Murder 2! They want to know if they convict on murder 2 can they disagree on murder 1! Like some others, I think we will have a verdict tonight or early in the morning tomorrow…

  49. Lynn says:

    Could it be they agree on murder, but disagree on one attempt? Like if trajectory would not have hit Leland they can’t agree it’s attempted murder. Tevin would have been hit if the door didn’t stop it. Tommie would have been hit unless he ducked.
    Sorry if this has been discussed. I’m playing catch up.

    • lurker says:

      I don’t know. If they agree on murder, I cannot see anyone expending a lot of effort one way or another on the attempted murder. It would be much easier to agree on the lesser charges if they know he’s already going to jail.

      I also think that the attempted murder is less prone to confusion regarding self-defense. His beef was with Davis. Not one thing that he ever said indicated any threat coming from any of the others–except for that ridiculous statement that they could pass the shotgun around. But, there is nothing to indicate that they WOULD do so, that they intended to do so, that they wanted to do so, etc.

    • Dave says:

      That’s possible. It seem’s to me, though, that for someone to get out of his car and fire multiple shots into a fleeing vehicle should result in an easy conviction for attempted murder. I can’t see how any rational person could consider that an act of self defense. Regarding the killing of Jordan Davis, I suspect that one or two jurors believe that Dunn MIGHT have actually believed that his life was in immediate danger and have what they consider Reasonable Doubt of his guilt on the homicide charge.

  50. sparger says:

    You know its one asshole convinced that Dunn acting in self defense. I guess he was worn day on attempted murder of the other boys.

  51. Trisha0620 says:

    I think this will be over with tonight ..

  52. lurker says:

    Back in court.

  53. Brandy says:

    I don’t think they can agree on the main count! M1, M2 ect. I don’t know what to make of this

  54. bettykath says:

    I think some are buying self-defense for the first count in all combinations. They are in agreement on the attempted murder.

    • Dave says:

      They might not actually buy it but have what they consider to be “Reasonable Doubt”.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Could be they are parsing over the differenc between murder and attempted murder. Jordan Davis is dead from three bullets, that’s for sure. But it’s possibly more difficult for them to be absolutely sure an attempt to murder the other three was made.
      Could be some jurors are of the “can’t be a little bit pregnant” school of thought.

  55. Nice.

    M2 & not attempted on the other three kids. They’re personalizing this between Dunn & Jordan. #watchingwaterboil

    • Trained Observer says:

      Ham — I think it unlikely these jurors will ever encounter the three teens who fled for their lives again. But if they refuse to convict on those three counts, how can they possibly look those three survivors in the eye?

      • Train I do believe that a part of a jury’s soul in a case like is left behind in the courtroom. There is a psychic scarring for either side & for that a deep part of me sighs..

        • fauxmccoy says:

          deep thoughts, there. seriously, no ‘SNL’ slight intended.

        • I totally agree. I think when a jury gets it wrong, there is a certain karma attached to it, depending upon intent – if a juror is also a racist and / or attached to self-defense at any cost, the juror will also pay a price. If the juror’s intent is more measured and the intent is to follow the letter of the law, then I think there’s likely far less karma attached.

  56. J4TMinATL says:

    They want to know if it’s OK to not render verdict on at least one count.

    Great…we know what that means

  57. Brandy says:

    I wonder what count they cant agree on? There able to agree on all the other counts. Hmmm

  58. Trisha0620 says:

    Im not sure what to make out of the second question

    • Dave says:

      I think they’re agreed on Attempted Murder and there’s one or two holdouts on Murder

      • lurker says:

        That is my first thought as well. Even if someone is swallowing the threat from Davis (the imaginary gun, or threat to kill, or looking mean out the window)–extending that to the other three is certainly a stretch, particularly when the driver’s action was to get the heck away as fast as possible.

        I think that the attempted murder counts were the easy ones and he’s going down on those as a certainty.

        The emotionalism and bias that attach to the murder v self-defense understanding of the other would be much tougher for a random group of Florida adults to hash out.

      • Trained Observer says:

        By deduction, that’s all it could be … unless they aren’t getting the missile charge. (can’t remember how that’s worded.) Can’t imagine they’d convict on Jordan’s death and then parse around on only two of the tree attempted murder charges.

        Could be, at this juncture, hold(s) out are refusing on M1 but the M! team is thus far refusing to dumb down to manslaughter.

  59. ZCBest says:

    wow they want to know if they can not reach a verdict on a count

    • ZCBest says:

      Judge says yes, they will publish the verdict for what count they reach a verdict on then a mistrial on what they couldn’t agree on. Then the state can decide whether to try him again on that one count.

  60. bettykath says:

    The good news is that the 12 people are not all bigots who grabbed the self-defense argument and came back immediately with not guilty on all counts. It’s possible that there are enough people who didn’t see it that way that, by going through the evidence, they can convince the self-defense folks that it’s bunk. Once that happens, I would expect things to go much more smoothly.

    It’s hard to get bigots to let loose of their biases but it can happen with good argument, patience and persistence.

  61. ZCBest says:

    Yay…hope this question helps determine what they may be considering.

  62. Trisha0620 says:

    ok they have another question lol

  63. Trisha0620 says:

    also if you could hear loud music in the store then you could also hear yelling and screaming in a argument, remember Dunn’s windows were down

  64. Trisha0620 says:

    Colin there is more than just finding him guilty on killing Jordan there is also the attempted murder on the other 3 boys in the car

  65. 2dogsonly says:

    Per John Phillips, jury has ordered dinner in.

  66. Trisha0620 says:

    its only been 17 hours …. and I do not believe Dunn will walk.

  67. colin black says:

    If dunn thought those in the S U V were any threat to him .
    He would not have left the safety of his car to fire more shots.

    They were fleeing as he was the aggressor a S U V Is a lethal weapon if driven in reverse over anyone at say twenty thirty m p h?

    • Girlp says:

      He was pissed off because Jordan argued with him and they cut the music back on. Also, we don’t know the truth about what happened at the wedding, after listening to the ex-neighbor the family may be afraid of him. The faimly’s answers sounded practiced, rehearsed maybe it was strange to me.

    • Girlp says:

      I believe he was already angry and took it out on the kids.

  68. People need to cancel an expectation this jury will reach a verdict today.

    Might, might not.

    I just realized that Monday is President’s Day, a national holiday.

    Will the jury deliberate on Monday?

    I doubt it.

    • colin black says:

      I don’t expect this Jury to reach a verdict PERIOD.

      Its obvious at least one or more stealths holding on for not guilty.

      If so the majority will realise this an not waste even more of there lifes.

      I expect the foreperson to announce HUNG before the end of business.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Colin, I disagree. Nothing’s obvious at this juncture, because we don’t know anything other than they’ve been deliberating since Wednesday afternoon, and have thus far wanted to see a video and get a little help from Bindy. .

        • Trained Observer says:

          Plus info on the Black Friday letter.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          deliberations began at wednesday at 5:03 PM. at that point, they likely got through only their packet of jury instructions before calling it a day. we’ve really had only yesterday and today for them to be hashing out details of evidence. i for one, do not consider this to be excessive.

    • J4TMinATL says:

      They will on Saturday and Sunday according to judge if they want.

  69. The only time the right-wing hate-machine gives a damn about a child not their own is when they want to adopt, incarcerate or kill it.

    Unless it’s a fetus.

  70. Malisha says:

    Something bothers me and I forgot to mention it before. Wolfson said, “Nobody denied that Jordan was talking back. But this defendant took it upon himself to silence Jordan Davis forever.”

    “Talking back”?

    “Talking back” implies that the speaker is speaking to someone who has legitimate authority, such as a teacher or parent. A guy in a parking lot in another car does not have that kind of authority. This reminds me of Bill Lee in Fogen’s case saying Trayvon Martin should not have “mouthed off” to Fogen. Why not?

    How does someone appoint himself an authority? Is it simply by whiteness? Is it by white maleness or male whiteness? In Fogen’s case he appointed himself not only an authority but a law enforcement agent, calling his victim “the suspect.” FoDung simply calls his victim a thug. But his assumption of the right to speak and not be “spoken back to” or “at” is the problem, and even the prosecutor doesn’t stick a pin in THAT one.

    Jordan Davis was not “talking back.” He was exercising his first amendment right of free speech. FoDung was not an authority over him and had no authority over him.

    • Boyd says:

      yep, it’s open season on young people, in the criminal justice system, jobs, take their SSN from them, war.

    • crazy1946 says:

      Malisha, Could it be that what Wolfson said was taken out of context? Could or should she have said Jordan was responding to Done Dunn? I don’t think that the words used by her were in any way indicative of her having disrespect or anything similar. Perhaps I am wrong, but I saw nothing on the part of the Prosecution done in a manner that could have been construed fairly as biased against Jordan or his family… I suspect that due to the stress of waiting for the verdict that perhaps straws are being grasped at to find fault in the event of a verdict not to our liking…

      • Malisha says:

        I’m not using that to criticize Wolfson; I think she did a good job. What I mean to point out is the notion (completely bizarre and yet flies below radar) that the victims owed some kind of respect to the killers. The general idea that in Fogen’s case there was a fight between two people (rather than one person hunting down and killing another person) and in FoDungen’s case there was an argument (rather than an attempt at verbal bullying and a defensive response) represents a kind of skewed view of what took place. Neither an actual argument nor an actual fight ends with a person shooting another person (who is unarmed) to death. These were actions in which the victim might have tried to defend but certainly was not in a position to arrange the structure of the situation.

        FoDung set himself up as the authority. “Talking back” to him was an offense, from his point of view. “You’re not gonna talk to me like that” shows what was happening: FoDung was executing someone who “talked back” to him.

        I have no blame for Wolfson no matter what the outcome; I’m just going over the ideas presented, in my mind: what this trial means to us as a nation.

        If FoDung walks I WILL blame the prosecution for not putting up a devastating rebuttal to the “He’s a peaceful guy” crap that the defense opened up during its main case.

        • crazy1946 says:

          Malisha, I agree with you on all the major points, I was simply concerned that you were taking the words of Mz. Wolfson out of context. You and I have had numerous cross comments and I have the upmost respect for you and your opinions and was wondering if the stress of waiting was clouding you normally clear vision of the facts. Thank you for re-enforcing what true intent of you words was meant to be… Darn, I don’t drink, and don’t smoke, but this case might cause me to develop habits that I can’t afford…

          • Malisha says:

            Naah, the stress of waiting is not making me think like that, Crazy. But the stress of waiting IS making me think like this:

            I think I want a pizza. I think I want to kill somebody. I think I want a cheese cake. I think I want to kill somebody. I think I want minnestrone soup. I think I want to kill somebody. I think I want red beans and rice; kill somebody; sun chips; kill; peppermine; kill; blueberry pancakes; kill kill I think … oh nevermind. 😆

          • crazy1946 says:

            Did you have to mention food? You’re not helping my diet…

          • crazy1946 says:

            You made me want a pizza, but I really don’t want one badly enough to murder anyone to earn it… Can I get a pass on the murder requirement and just get one this time?

      • J4TMinATL says:

        Pizza for me too please

        • crazy1946 says:

          Could I please have a pass on the requirement that I first murder an innocent child before I can order a pizza? And I also want a coke (the liquid kind not the powdered type preferred by Done Dunn)…

        • crazy1946 says:

          J4TMinATL, Did I understand you to say that HLN had done a mock up of the questions that I had about the sequence of the gun fire? If so what did they figure out?

    • MDH says:

      You pointed out an aspect of white privilege perfectly.

      And as a white man, I know that I could have told either Dunn or Zimmerman to mind their own damn business with the court of public opinion being on my side. Arguably, I could have shot either one, and been found not guilty in that both were armed and aggressive.

      How come black males don’t get that same right?

    • Dave says:

      I suspect that Ms Wollfson, in using the phrase “talking back” was reaching out to jurors who thought that a teenager (of whatever color) owes deference to an older man. “Talking back” is something that unruly kids do to parents or teachers. Annoying or obnoxious it may be but it falls far short of “threatening” or “cussing out” and, as Ms Wolfson suggests, it certainly doesn’t justify shooting the kid.

      • Rachael says:

        That is how I saw it – as 17-year-old kid behavior, as any of us who have had teens are (unfortunately) familiar with.

  71. neveragain says:

    Conerning the caylee case…I woukd not have found her guilty….why would anyone sentence that young girl to death when they do not know how her daughter died……..yes I think it was privably due to her negligence or anger at the moment who know….but how does any one knows that it was a premedutated murder….if they had gicen her a lesser charge the jury woukd have found her guilty……….

    • Disappointed says:

      They did not even find her guilty of neglect. They had options. A 2 year old does not wrap their own face in duct tape themselves walk down to the woods and hop into a couple of bags. What innocent mother does not report child missing?

    • Malisha says:

      She definitely was guilty of bad mothering, but there was not sufficient evidence that she was guilty of murder. Neglect, endangerment, accessory after the fact, etc. etc. etc. there were many ways to skin that cat. Murder wasn’t the only option.

    • BB says:

      They did present lesser charges- some of the jurors claimed they did not know that either. It;s one thing that you didn’t know- but inexcusable that the jurors did not discuss them.

  72. neveragain says:

    Again…please jurors….stop trying to convince those who believe that Dunn is not guilty….there us nothing you alk can do that will change their minds

  73. disappointed says:

    It’s not just race with these juries. Caylee Anthony was a beautiful little white girl. I truly believe the people of Florida does not value it’s children. Maybe other States are the same but Florida has 3 of the most notorious ones recently. Maybe it’s not race holding them back, maybe they just do not care that someone else lost a child. Possibly these people only consider their own children. Not the victims of these crimes.

  74. Valerie says:

    sent my donation….Thanks for the updates.

  75. The fact that we’re sitting here wondering if this guy will walk is crazy to me.

    I waited on many juries to reach verdicts in cases that I tried during my 30-year career.

    One must cultivate the art of patience.

    I should write a book titled, “Zen and the art of waiting for a jury to reach a verdict.”

    The first rule is the jury is not living on your time. You are living on its time. It’s in control and you aren’t.

    Hang with the discussion as long as it remains engaging, or do other things making sure to check back from time to time.

    When the jury reaches a verdict, assuming that it does, we will have at least 30 minutes notice before the verdict is announced in court.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      was going to remark that this is the time to get in touch with your inner budist or taoist. i know it’s tough, but an art i perfected long ago for other applications and it works just as well for this.

  76. Rachael says:

    I’m having trouble waiting. I mean, I know I have no choice but…

  77. My Forehead Tho says:

    I honestly lost all confidence in Florida’s ability to convict criminals after Casey Anthony and George Zimmerman. What seems like obvious guilt to people with common sense and no hidden racial agendas, seems like rocket science to these people. Like really, how hard is it to see a guy, who admits to being the initial aggressor by approaching the teens in the car and starting an argument that resulted in him firing 8+ bullets at the unarmed kids, killing one, is guilty of murder.

    If this guy is allowed to walk, Florida’s racism is no longer implied, its broadcasted for the world to see. The fact that we’re sitting here wondering if this guy will walk is crazy to me.

    • Patdeadder says:

      My friends and I boycotted Florida after the fogen charade.They have gone to SC since then.As you know we have long cold winters up here in the great white north.
      If this jury acquits I’m going to Cuba to get warm.

    • lurker says:

      Again–there could be two folks in that room arguing that we don’t know if there was a gun because all the dumpsters in the area were not immediately searched. That would fit with asking for all of the surveillance videos, to try to come up with the actual timeline during which the Durango was gone. It would also fit with the request for the letter and the date on which it was written to see if he was trying to get the word to Rhonda to tell the police about the gun.

      And I don’t know if they are all on top of the reality that Michael Dunn never actually called the police, nor did his neighbor. He may have intended to see if his friend “in law enforcement” knew someone who could help him out (although there’s nothing to back that up)–but the reality is that they had already caught up with him and descended on him with an armed squad. And despite this he said over and over again when asked about whether he called police “I contacted law enforcement the next day when I got home.” THAT is a blatant lie, and he repeated it over and over.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Dunn apparently subscribes to the notion that if you say it often enough, people will believe it. What;s sad is that gullible people will. ,

      • fauxmccoy says:

        @lurker — yes, dunn told a blatant lie but was impeached on the stand by his phone records. his testimony was impeached further by the rebuttal case and testimony of poor weeping rhonda. no reasonable person could conclude that dunn’s statements were truthful. this is not to say that the jury consists of entirely reasonable people, however.

      • speedster says:

        The fact of the matter is that the nearest dumpster is behind the store and a good 500 feet as the crow flies. It looks like another 300 or so by drive. That’s close to a 1/4 mile. There is no way they would have time to get there and back even without witnesses (the LeBlancs) confirming that.

        If 2 folks are arguing dumpster dumping, I’d say they are premeditated to not guilty. Maybe not stealth jurors as in Fogens trial, but white power people all the way.

        The same goes for the other realities you cite. Not calling the police to just say they were armed, they fled (how did he know where they even went?) to at least get in on the record they had a gun……

        “…..and he’s a black male…..he’s up to no good……he’s got his hand in his waistband……I don’t know what his deal is……now he’s just looking at me……..now he’s coming towards me”

        Fogen prepped the cops as to the danger his feeble mind perceived. For the life of me, I can’t see how any jury wouldn’t see that.

        I contacted Law Enforcement…..Ppppffffttttt !! Even if he called the Chief of Police and never mentioned what he did, that’s not exactly “contacting” them. He called a Dept. of Agriculture agent.

        For all we know his job was Manure Management.

        • lurker says:

          I wasn’t trying to defend the guy here. Just trying to offer an explanation for what could well be going on in the jury room. I wouldn’t be surprised if there are one or two (generally takes two) predisposed to stick up for Dunn. That’s kinda the way the cookie crumbles despite all the best efforts of attorneys in screening potential jurors.

          We all have our biases, and if there are a couple of folks sticking to reasonable doubt with regard to the state’s case, it could be up to the remainder of the jury to go through point by point holding up and reviewing the evidence that runs counter to their view.

          • racerrodig says:

            I’m on your side, I know you weren’t defending him. I’m just saying anyone who goes the dumpster route has a reality issue.

            (for some strange reason that post has speedster, when in fact I’m racerrodig and you know where I stand)

        • Dept of Agriculture also manages the Forest Service, if I’m not mistaken. Could be a park ranger with a badge and a gun- some are law enforcement types. And we found out during trial that Dunn didn’t call him – the neighbor called Dunn to invite he and Rhonda out for the evening. : /

          • racerrodig says:

            Exactly. “I contacted Law Enforcement……about a pot hole, kids playing in the street, whatever, but certainly NOT anything about my shooting anyone.

            In most states it’s the law you must report having discharged a weapon to the police immediately. But, hey…it’s FL.

    • MDH says:

      I have friends in Negril, Jamaica. That is one place that speaks many forms of great English and is devoid of turds like Dunn, Zimmerman and Taffe.

      • Except Jamaicans love to fire guns in the air at big street parties, as they did when I was in Kingston on their independence day in August 1989 . . . or end up having a scary short stampede on the busiest night of Reggae Sunsplash in Negril when someone reportedly pulled a gun for some reason . . . or someone thought they saw a gun. Or when they cut someone’s hand off with a machete during political conflicts at election time, as with one young man I met.

        But I fell in love with Jamaica anyway. Overall, far less violent than the F-state.

  78. silk says:

    Idk. It seems as to me that the jury is trying to find away to let dummy walkk! Its really not hard to figure out

    • Eric says:

      That’s exactly what’s happening. A verdict shouldn’t take this long.

    • Dave says:

      I doubt it. It’s more likely that they’re trying to reach agreement on what specific charge(s) to find him guilty of. If they wanted to let him off they would have done it long ago.

      • Eric says:

        It took Zimmermans jury this long to let him go

      • Boyd says:

        Or perhaps someone is playing word games and finding ways not to convict with the complex instructions.
        Like in the Zimmerman trial, they Jurors thought it was impossible to convict, never once thinking if true then judge Nelson would never given you the case.

    • I do not agree.

      For example, the instructions took over 30 minutes to read and they are complicated.

      We could also have a split, such as 10-2 for guilty, with people arguing back and forth to convince the 2 holdouts.

      I’ve had juries deliberate for more than a week before reaching a verdict.

      Sometimes it went one way and sometimes the other.

      The longer you watch water waiting to see it boil, the longer it seems to take.

      We are on jury time and nothing we can do will speed up or slow down what they are doing.

      • Boyd says:

        should insturctions be compicated for the non-law people? I quickly was distracted listening to the instructions and I have severe ADD, I need context.

        • Dave says:

          I don’t think that the instructions were all that complicated but there was a lot of repetition that made them long and difficult to follow. Giving each juror a printed copy should help a great deal.

          • I’m very ADD auditory/orally impaired learner, so written instructions would be an absolute must – I can grasp anything in writing with enough time to absorb it, but oral instructions sound like blah-blabbety-blah to me.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          boyd — jury instructions are generally compiled by a group of lawyers and judges and then approved by whatever appropriate body. instructions attempt to break the law down into layman’s terms, state the law and provide specific definitions when necessary. although i think that florida’s self defense language adds a layer of unnecessary ambiguity, in general, i do not know how much more simple it can be made. the law is a complicated thing, especially if the defendant’s life is on the line (which LWOP pretty much is).

          i know that i do much better with the written word before me than i do with the judge reading 30 or so pages of this stuff. my eyes glaze over, my mind wanders and i would be hard pressed to retain much of what was said. we do know that in this case, each of the 12 jurors has their own copy of the full instructions along with the verdict form. if you take it one page at a time or paragraph at a time, it should be manageable for most folks unless their is a debilitating learning disability.

    • Dave says:

      I believe that it’s only right that the jury should take it’s time on a case like this. It’s a murder trial. A guilty verdict could put a human being behind bars for the rest of his life. There are loads of issues to discuss besides the evidence:

      Reasonable Doubt
      Reasonably Necessary
      Premeditation
      Depraved Mind
      and on and on and on….

      We’ve had very long discussions on these and other relevant legal issues here and I would expect the jurors to do the same, only without the guidance of an experienced attorney.

  79. Liza says:

    Okay, so I understand that if the jury could not reach a verdict on murder one even after considering lesser charges, the prosecution could retry on that count.

    Could the prosecution reduce the charge to murder two and retry?

    • Dave says:

      Sure. They could retry on M1, M2, or any other appropriate charge. However, if the jury hung on M1 (and the included lesser charges) and reached a verdict on the other counts, Dunn could only be retried for the actual killing of Jordan Davis.

  80. blushedbrown says:

    @everyone

    While we are waiting for a verdict, I thought of another case regarding “loud music”.

    I thought you all could watch this and maybe comment on the similarities of the current case.

    • towerflower says:

      Not to many similarities other than the neighbor was angry over loud music coming from a party and there was a mouthy participant….this was the Texas man, Raul Rodriguez.

      PR–left him home with a video camera, phone, and a gun and confronted his neighbors about loud music. He was on the phone with 911 saying constantly he was in fear of his life when he shot his neighbors killing one. One of the ones who was shot was very mouthy to him and suggested that they would go inside and get their own gun to even the field. One of the men shot shows him standing with his hands up in the air.

      PR was found guilty and sentenced to 40 yrs.

    • MDH says:

      There is far more evidence of a “possible” danger to RR than in the case of Dunn.

      Because a “possible” danger, while one is in possession of a firearm and the party posing the possibility has empty hands, is not deemed a reasonable fear for one’s life when shooting a white person, RR was found guilty and sentenced to 40 years.

      In Dunn’s case, any possible thing an unarmed black male can do is deemed a reason for a white person to fear for their life, even if said white person has a gun, an MG42, a phaser or small atomic bomb, so that is why we have been waiting so long on this verdict.

      Don’t you all get it???

      Those black studs could have easily picked up that SUV and thrown it on Dunn.

      Snark over.

      • lurker says:

        They also had access to the deadly sidewalk.

        • MDH says:

          More like the even more lethal deadly parking lot.

          I believe that is 37 CFR kkk(a) sub 117, which states:

          when a black male is on a parking lot, their superhuman strength allows them to lift a mass of concrete capable of crushing a motor vehicle and, as such, any white male in the cover of such vehicle is in mortal danger, thus allowing for use of legitimate lethal force by said white male. *(1)

          re (1)

          this rule supersedes 37 CFR kkk(z) 113 aka the Zimmerman rule wherein a white male encountering a black male outside the protective confines of a vehicle but in proximity to deadly concrete is allowed use of lethal force.

        • Oh no you didn’t… rofl.

  81. fauxmccoy says:

    fred — can you try to help resolve an issue we’ve been discussing regarding the ‘black friday’ letter which the jury was questioning the date it was written?

    the letter has an exhibit number (201) — some of us are debating as to whether this entire letter is evidence with the jury. john guy’s closing statements refer to 211 (iirc) exhibits, which would place that letter in the general vicinity, time wise, as it was introduced.

    what do you think? black friday letter exhibit or no?

  82. Boyd says:

    My wife told me if this guy gets away with they should riot down there.

  83. blushedbrown says:

    thanks.

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