Clarification and apology for my remarks about Shellie Zimmerman discussion

Monday, September 30, 2013

Good afternoon:

Tzar said something in a comment that inspired me to write this post.

He said,

Hi I am Tzar and I carry hate and contempt in my heart.

I do so because there are -and more importantly, there probably always will be- people and notions in this world that are the reason of why we can’t have nice things. I do so because because there people and notions in this world that we ought to fear and people and notions that we are to hold in disrespect. I do so because it defines the limits of what I find beautiful, what I love, what I find tolerable and insignificant.

I respect my hate and I delight in my contempt because they are very small and sharply defined and because they make me me. Woe unto one who finds themselves in that little box, because it is hard to get in and equally hard to get out (bullies, child abusers and spreaders of hate and disorder are lifetime members).

If I am at risk to be consumed, it is by my love and awe. If I am at risk to be obsessed it is through the task of diminishing yet always maintaining my hate.

I think of hatred as an intense and compulsive form of anger that overwhelms my circuits compromising my ability to perceive what is happening in my environment and to interpret the sensory information in an objective manner. We have learned from observing Trayvon’s case, for example, that bias and prejudice compromise perception. People tend to see what they expect to see or want to see. For this reason, we must be ever aware of the danger of failing to see something in plain view and misinterpreting our environment.

When I hate, I am not living in the moment. I am more likely to make decisions based on assumptions rather than evidence. Hatred impairs judgment, in other words.

I realized long ago that I had to figure out how to manage my emotions, if I was going to be an effective trial lawyer. By managing emotions I do not mean suppressing them. Suppressing emotions is unhealthy because it requires considerable energy and it deadens us to experiencing life.

Emotions come and go relatively quickly and an effective way to manage them is to develop the ability to change mental focus.

Baba Ram Dass emphasized the importance of being in the moment when he advised people to “be here now.” I agree.

If we are focused in the moment, we are plugged-in to our senses and less likely to miss something important like an approaching train.

Tzar believes some things like racism deserve to be hated. I agree in the sense that some beliefs and actions merit universal condemnation. Racism is one of those things.

I choose not to hate racism or a racist because I already condemn them. Hating them does not make them go away. Hating only hurts me by dissipating my energy and clouding my focus.

Hating is what racists do and I condemn them because they do that.

I do not want to be like them.

I believe some people misunderstood what I meant regarding Shellie Zimmerman. I did not intend to minimize what she said or did. I agree that her behavior protecting her husband, lying to the court about his assets at the bond hearing, and her participation in the devious scheme to falsely claim that Tracy Martin threatened someone in the Zimmerman family in order to persuade Judge Nelson to exclude Tracy Martin from the courtroom was wrong and reprehensible. I also suspect that she is racist and her chuckle regarding her husband’s comment about wearing a hoodie when he was released from jail was particularly insensitive and offensive.

No one should assume that I have approved of anything she said or did before she decided to divorce her husband. I have stated that her public statements and conduct in the case are consistent with the behavior of an abused and battered spouse. I also said that actions speak louder than words, so I am reserving judgment about her until we see what she does.

After reviewing my statements this weekend about Shellie, I realize that I did not clearly express myself. Therefore, I apologize for the confusion that I caused.

Finally, I still believe that she is a minor character in this tragedy. I said and still believe that the tone of many comments rejecting the possibility that she was a battered spouse was insensitive and disrespectful of the comments and feelings of many of our readers who have recently admitted that they were abused. I wanted that to stop.

Again, I thank Tzar for his thoughtful comment that inspired me to write this article.

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249 Responses to Clarification and apology for my remarks about Shellie Zimmerman discussion

  1. Xena says:

    Re: The Ben Kruidbos lawsuit. Lawyers for State Attorney Angela Corey have filed a motion to dismiss raising the argument that she has “sovereign immunity.”
    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-angela-corey-george-zimmerman-20131004,0,5950947.story

    • Malisha says:

      “Sovereign immunity” is the way our public officials get away with murder.

      It comes from Old English Law and has no place in a democracy. You cannot keep a government honest if you cannot expose their dishonesty and make them pay a price for it. And you cannot pretend the officials are “public servants” if they are not answerable to the public.

      We have an empire. Like Britain when they first came up with “Sovereign immunity.” Judges, officials of all sorts, criminals of all sorts, hide behind the shield that was placed there, originally, by the KING.

      • Xena says:

        @Malisha. For some causes of action, the entity can be sued but not the individual(s) working for that entity. Kruidbos can sue his employer, but not the elected official that oversees that entity. This happens often in torts involving employment. Evidently, Kruidbos’ attorney didn’t understand how to frame the case. He might be able to overcome a dismissal by amending the complaint and naming the correct defendant(s).

        Regarding judges being sued — never gonna happen. The judicial branch is setup so that judges in higher courts decide whether judges in lower courts erred in their decision. I see the good and bad in that.

        • Malisha says:

          Judges’ immunity depends on some factors, but prosecutors’ immunity is even more “teflonic” and really harms our system. Basically a prosecutor can decide not to prosecute and does not have to answer to anyone as to why not. It amounts to a “free card” to some individuals to commit crimes. If I had any faith that there was any sense in trying to fix this irremediably broken system, I would start with saying that there must be citizens’ grand juries that consisted of panels entirely drawn from the citizenry and to whom individuals could go WITHOUT LAWYERS to present their own evidence and to subject it to evaluation by the citizens’ grand jury. These would not be secret proceedings, either; they would be run like a civil trial but with no judge. The elected foreman of each grand jury would rule on the evidence NOT on admissibility but on “authenticity.” Rules of authenticity would have to be written differently from the rules of evidence used in courts. ALL that would happen after a citizen’s grand jury deliberated would be that a charge would be sent to the prosecutor’s office. The prosecutor would have to issue the charge but a public defender would have an opportunity, before arrest, to challenge the charge on the basis of “lack of evidence.” ALL OF THIS would be subject to investigation and evaluation.

          The idea is meaningless because it is impossible to make a corrupt system work right. Period.

          • Xena says:

            @Malisha. Imperfect man creates imperfect systems.

            For years, state prosecutors have refused to investigate and arrest, and thrown victims to the civil courts for redress where money is suppose to “restore” victims. They do that almost consistently for White Collar crimes, fraud, and what is described as “non-violent crimes.” That’s a close as we will ever get to “citizens grand juries.” There is extreme danger with that idea since sovereign citizens adopted it.

  2. Lynn says:

    Update on the GZ/SZ saga…10/03/13

    So, if Lake Mary Police are talking with GZ, will SZ’s lawyers be able to find and serve papers?
    Also, they’ve bought a new ipad to put SZ’s memory chip in. Hope it works.

    http://www.clickorlando.com/news/lake-mary-police-talk-to-george-zimmerman-about-reported-theft/-/1637132/22259964/-/kjj42u/-/index.html

    • colin black says:

      Oh it will work those memory chips are imposssable to destroy short of sticking them in a micro wave oven.

      A few smacks cracks an bumbs wont do it.

      Just ask Jodi Arrias how durable memory cards are like the old tmex slogan.

      Can take a kicking an keeps on ticking..

      But if all partys involved are adamant that there not making criminal complaint why are they bothering.

      Unless for vouyeristic purposes who cares what this eejit little freak was yelling an cussing about .

      And yes I know that LE can move forward to press charges without the participants permission.

      But they were willing to take his word on the Murder of a Child an say okie dockie you can go home now.

      It simply adds insult to Trayvons parents if they now decide to make a big deal spend money an man hours investigating a domestic squabble between thease group of foolish people.

      An yet never even blinked or raised an eyebrow let alone launched a thourgh investigation when he murdered a Kid?

      • Allison says:

        Why would the Lake Mary Police be buying a new IPAD for the chip? The last article I read said they had turned the IPAD over to the feds and their forensics lab was suppose to be working with it. Was that a lie?

    • groans says:

      From the linked article:

      As they question Zimmerman, police say the list of items allegedly taken from the home is shrinking as the Deans now report they’ve found the television in another location.

      This strikes me as too weird. What “other location”?

      I can’t help but wonder if CAC hid some of the Deans’ belongings in order to draw a “false” accusation – and thereby build on the “mantle of victimhood” that he stole from his first homicide victim.

  3. If you never read anything else about Shellie Zimmerman, please read this piece that succinctly articulates my perspective about the tension between what she has shown herself capable of and the dynamics of being under Fogen’s spell…

    http://www.furiousandbrave.com/2013/10/shared-victimhood-and-redemption.html?m=1

    • Rachael says:

      wow, that was very thought provoking! thanks.

    • Malisha says:

      FABULOUS and I would never have found it but for your having posted it for me, thank you thank you THANK YOU!

      This is what forms part of my rage against the woman: While her husband was being tried, to be held accountable for his act of murder, she openly SAID that was not “his way” and so did ex-girlfriend (“He’s not racist”) Zueza. Shame on them. Shellie actually said she never saw her blameless (of RACIST murder, not of “domestic” violence) hubby angry! SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME!!

      I can’t accept the “oh boo hoo” of anybody (Serino, Singleton, Shellie, any of the Fogenites, Fogen himself) connected with that fraud perpetrated on the whole country and most of the world. ANYBODY who suffers harm from the Trayvon Martin murder who was in any way defensive of the murderer — in any way, shape, or form, is no longer (for their whole lifetime) deserving of sympathy, pity, “understanding,” or defense. If they were murdered at random by unknown assailants tomorrow I still would not shed tears.

      • groans says:

        Shellie actually said she never saw her blameless … hubby angry!

        IIRC, she actually testified to that effect in the first bond hearing.

    • groans says:

      @ Medusausi – Thanks for that very interesting and thought-provoking piece. It certainly adds a new (to me) layer of haunting parallels between the Emmett Till and Trayvon Martin travesties, and offers a perspective on Shellie that warrants considerable reflection (perhaps especially by Shellie, herself).

  4. crazy1946 says:

    NOTICE: PUBLIC & PERSONAL APOLGY TO RACHAEL

    Recently I made several posts to Rachael that were poorly written and failed to communicate my true thoughts and intents. It is obvious that my communication skills are somewhat lacking at times and for that I truly am sorry. Rachael, I want to simply say that I do appreciate and enjoy your posts and feel that I have failed you, in that I simply did (do) not find a way to respond to you in such a way that you could understand that we actually did (do) agree on most issues and that I do respect your opinions and words. If you can find it in your heart to forgive me for my weaknesses, I promise to work harder at making my point with out being seen as offensive… Perhaps I should limit my future communications to simple “yes” or “no” posts, but being that I am a man, I would probably even screw that up…

  5. neveragain says:

    Now if a white or black parent wold prefer that their kid marries someone of the same ethnicity…that is not racist…but if the kid marries someone of a different etnicity and the parents refuses to acknowledge the marriage and their grandkids 5 years down the line, simply because the spouse is of another ethnicity…that is racism

  6. neveragain says:

    Racism is much more than being biased…racism is haboring hatred for an individual because of their ethniciy…I am not sure whether Shellie or gz is racist…I don’t believe that they are racist….I do know that gz profiled trayvon because he was black, because the burgleries in the area were done by black men….

    • Rachael says:

      Sort of. but you are leaving something out. Your equation is:

      GZ profiled Travon because he was black + the burglaries in the area were done by black men.

      But what does that equal?

      GZ profiled Travon because he was black + the burglaires in the area were done by black men = Travyon was a burgler because he was a black man.

      THAT, my dear, is racism.

      • neveragain says:

        Ok…you have a point….I’m confused now……I guess if trayvon fit the profile of a burglar then gz would have been justified in profiling him?…like if he was indeed acting suspicious….

    • Xena says:

      @neveragain.

      racism is haboring hatred for an individual because of their ethniciy

      That can be racial prejudice. Prejudice can be overcome by education and/or experience. Racism is based on a premise of believing that one race is superior, and converting that superiority into authority or unauthorized authority that violates the civil rights of others.

      • dianetrotter says:

        Xena, the sad thing is that many racists don’t change because of education/experience. They rationalize that this “educated” person is not like “the rest of them.” I have seen kids of racists rebel and make foolish mistakes. I had a friend whose parents were racists. To get back at them she dated a lot of black guys and was not very selective about character. This reinforced the racists views of her parents.

        • Xena says:

          @dianetrotter.

          Xena, the sad thing is that many racists don’t change because of education/experience.

          Racial bigots won’t, but those racially prejudiced can if they want to. There’s a difference. An example of racial prejudice is to believe that all Hispanics are “Mexican.” Or, that all Blacks are afraid of dogs. Or, that all Whites are smart.

          Racial bigotry is founded on a belief that Whites are superior to all other races. They need this ideology to give themselves authority over others.

    • colin black says:

      That’s not true raceism is hatered pure an simple just another form of hatred of fellow humans ethnicity coulour or creed is not nessesery for raceist actions.

      Germans would shove a blond haired blue eyed Jewish person into a gas chamber same as a brown eyed middle eastern appearance or mediotarian features.

      Croats slaughtered fellow Croats when the former Yugaslavia under Comunism collaped the Balkans erupted with race hatred based on nothing more than ones religion as with the Jews.

      This time is was Muslim brothers slaughtering fellow members of there own community of family because either they were Christian.

      Or vicea verca Raceism is coulour blind an is just another aspect of mans inhumanity toward fellow sentinets beings like themselves.

      Scots are Raceist towards the English an vice verca Welsh also they often burn holiday homes owned by English People to the ground.

      An Im sure you’ve all heard of certain Irish people hatred of the English .

      That’s the UK one tiny island race originaly inhabited by 100 percent white cauciaun race wich has centurys of raceism towards each other.

      • Xena says:

        @colin black. Racism is hatred, but the basic thought is one of superiority and having authority over others because of race.

        Maybe I can be more clear. There is racial prejudice, racial bigotry, and racists/racism. Most people who are racial bigots don’t have authority to change channels on their television remote. OTOH, racists are those who violate the civil rights of others. For instance, the DOJ asks if George Zimmerman is racist BECAUSE he violated Trayvon’s civil rights and they want evidence of his motivation when he did so.

        Currently, the Congressional House Teaparty is using their authority to violate the civil rights of others. Are they racists or domestic terrorists? IMHO, since they found no need to exist until and because of the election of Barack Obama, they are both.

  7. neveragain says:

    But you can be biased and not know it….I am black and I asked my white freind what does he think of a white woman with mixed kids who are part black…he said it looked strange , so I ask him why does it look strange because I did not think that it looked strange, he did not have an answer he said it just looked strange…….then I saw a white woman with mixed kids who were half Asian and the kids looked totally asain and I thought it looked strange…then I realized I had was biased because I am black…to me it did not look strange when the kids were black, but it looked strange when the kids looked asain….or maybe its because we all know what mixed black kids look like…..but the mixed asain kids looked totally asain, maybe it would not have been strange looking if they had features of both parents

  8. colin black says:

    Rachael says:

    October 2, 2013 at 2:56 pm

    I agree with you YAHTC. I believe Shellie is as racist as they come, but like most racists doesn’t see it, which is why she doesn’t see it in GZ. Speaking of which, I would love for her to say GZ is FOS about “mentoring” black kids
    @

    Yes he was lieing his logic at the time being this is a legit kill an no one will ever hear about this.
    And he thought saying things like he wants to be a judge blah blah I mentor Black Children would bolster his image as a good guy in the eyes of the interviewing officers.

    How ever his lies have become true due to his depraved murder of Trayvon.

    He has mentored thousands of Black Children an Adults and all whom read here .

    Everyone in fact whom has followed this tragedy has been mentored by foggage.

    He has shown us all just how depraved an self centred certain types are those that look at others as not a fellow human beings.

    But as instruments of there will to use as they desire to manipulate there agendas as they wish.

    Be it to get an enraged wife back under your roof..And then from there spin it to make yourself appear a victim an hero.

    He has taught us all that his type has no respect for others life or others feelings it all about them an there needs.

    He has mentored the world on what an asshat he an his ilk are there lifes an brains are empty .An the only way they can reassure themselves of self worth is to inflict carnage on others.

    I destroy therefore I exsist an have substance an power.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I just want to clarify colin’s quotation above. The quotation is from this post:

      Rachael says:
      October 2, 2013 at 2:56 pm

      I agree with you YAHTC. I believe Shellie is as racist as they come, but like most racists doesn’t see it, which is why she doesn’t see it in GZ. Speaking of which, I would love for her to say GZ is FOS about “mentoring” black kids.

      Rachael was responding to this post of mine:

      You all have thoughtful comments says:
      October 2, 2013 at 8:38 am
      Thanks for sharing your thoughts, crazy1946.

      I think it might be helpful to bring my earlier post here for those who might not have seen it:

      .
      .

      You all have thoughtful comments says:
      September 30, 2013 at 10:15 am

      I think what we have here in comments about Shellie are viewpoints based upon the personal experience of our family of posters.

      I was saddened to learn of the spousal abuse experienced by many of you. I understand how such an experience guides your assessment of Shellie.

      Yet, it is so very IMPORTANT to give validity to the African American experience in our country when it comes to the racial hatred directed at them.

      Many Black posters using their own personal experience to assess Shellie come to a different conclusion that I personally feel should be RESPECTED.

      We must remember that the gz verdict ESPECIALLY affects them and their families.

  9. neveragain says:

    Ok no new comments I see so I would likr to add one last comment by reiterating that one does not have to be a criminal to be a veryDANGEROUS person….racism is not illegal, it is not a crime to be racist….the Sanford police department should fight crime and not help a murderer go free…the jurors were supposed to be fair and not biased…..I am sure b37 is a law abiding citizen…..oh and people of the same ethnicity even family members could be just as evil….this is why I prefer the kkk members openly state how they feel…they don’t pretend to be your freind and give insencere apologies…………this is why the Trayvon Martin case remain on peoples mind…that is why people keep discussing it….because there are many individuals who allow a murderer to go free and nothing can be done about it….

  10. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    From The Columbus Dispatch:

    “Protesters rally against ‘stand your ground’ gun bill”
    Thursday October 3, 2013 5:45 AM

    http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2013/10/02/protesters-rally-against-stand-your-ground-gun-bill.html

    Excerpt:

    The dividing lines were sharply drawn yesterday as opponents of a “stand your ground” gun bill gathered at the Statehouse, where gun owners with holstered guns on their hips dotted the crowd.

    About 200 people marched from Trinity Episcopal Church to the Statehouse to protest House Bill 203, a proposal an opponent called “one of the most polarizing pieces of legislation of our time,” and a supporter described as nothing more than a “self-defense bill.”

    Without a permit to rally on the Statehouse grounds, the chanting protesters were confined to a small strip of sidewalk along High Street. Some people lay down on the sidewalk in a symbolic “ die-in.”

    Columbus police kept a close watch on the protesters, and a state security official yelled at those who strayed from the public sidewalk onto Statehouse grounds. They appeared to pay less attention to a half-dozen armed people on the fringe of the crowd who carried signs saying, “Pro Civil Rights. NRA-IRL,” the lobbying arm of the National Rifle Association. The gun-toting counterprotesters were allowed a short distance onto Statehouse grounds.

    • Xena says:

      @Rachael. Can’t understand why “conservative Christians” forget that Jesus and all 13 of the apostles were Jews.

      • Rachael says:

        not all do. many more of them do, it seems and tru to use that to prove that jews are related to christians that way and then interpret the jewish books and laws by their books and I better stop or my own bias will kick in. I know he is the kind my mom was terrified of ans ahe was sure all christians were like that but like I said seems most I’ve met once they found out I was jewish tried to tell me how christianity was special for me, even usingvtern compleyed jew and I’m complete already, thank you.

        • Xena says:

          @Rachael. The Christian religion is so divided into denominations and doctrines that Christians and what they believe should never be generalized. For instance, I’ve never tried telling you how Christianity is special for you. I know many people who profess a religion, but their actions betray it. There are atheists I know who live enchristed lives — and debates I’ve had with Christians about that.

          • Rachael says:

            That’s very true Xena and I didn’t mean to make it sound like it fell into only one of those two examples. I just mainly was trying to point out not everyone who is Christain is like that. at all!! you are very right.

          • Xena says:

            @Rachael. I understood. Sorry if I sounded defensive.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Unbelievable.

        Sounds like the 1950’s where we only had a Christmas program singing only Christmas songs in December when I was in elementary school even though the majority of the students were Jewish. (On Yom Kippur, only I and another student were in attendance in my classroom This was true for all of the classrooms where there would only be 2 to 5 in attendance.)

        I think it is time that we all boycott this store chain.

        • Xena says:

          @Yahtc.

          Sounds like the 1950′s where we only had a Christmas program singing only Christmas songs in December when I was in elementary school even though the majority of the students were Jewish.

          We sung “winter” songs, such as “Winter Wonderland,” “Let it snow.” The school was a block from a synagogue in one direction, 2 blocks to the AME church in the other direction, 3 blocks to the Catholic church, and 4 blocks to the Pentecostal church. 🙂

    • dianetrotter says:

      I wonder if this was something employees were told or something they assumed because they know Steve Green is a Christian. I worked for Hughes Aircraft Company when I first came to California. Employees often said that the company didn’t care about making money because it was a nonprofit organization. This turned out to be more than an oversimplification of the real situation. I did operations audits and found employees to do their jobs as they were trained which was often not in compliance with government regulations or contract requirements. I hope this is the case with Hobby Lobby.

  11. Trained Observer says:

    Is it typical for federal civil trial juries to be composed of 10?
    According to the NY Post’s Page Six, Mark Cuban’s jury on insider trading accusations appears to be seven women, three men.

    http://nypost.com/2013/10/01/mark-cuban-charms-hometown-insider-trading-jurors/

    • See my answer in today’s post titled Right to a jury trial in civil and criminal trials.

      • Xena says:

        @Professor. Hope you see this. Remember that O’Mara said he was filing a motion for the State to pay for costs of GZ’s defense? Shortly thereafter, Dr. Bao announced that he was filing suit and alleged that the State was biased and threw the case.

        Do you think that Dr. Bao’s allegations may possibly be the reason why O’Mara has not filed motion for costs, neither proceeded with scheduling hearings on the pending sanction motions?

        TYIA.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Thank you … I will look for it when it appears. (Also look forward to Xena’s inquiry below.) Again, thanks.

    • bettykath says:

      Maybe there were a couple of “undetermined”. 🙂

  12. crazy1946 says:

    This group of unique individuals who have come together with a common goal (justice for Trayvon Martin) has been quite unified for the last several years. However now that the trial (if one could call it that?) is over, with results that none of us is pleased with, we seem to have come to a point that we seek to self implode. Is it disappointment with the verdict that causes many of us to wear our feeling on our sleeves as if we are waiting to pounce on the next person that does not agree with our view point? How many times have we read a post, sat and written a long reply, and only after posting that reply realize that the intent of the poster was not what we had thought? Is this a necessary part of the grief cycle? Is this to be the common theme of the site for the future? Have you thought about how unified we were in the process leading up to the trial, yet during and after that trial we seem to have become angry and sharp to and toward each other? This division has really boiled to the surface during the recent (and current) discussions about the Shellie Zimmerman and her marriage to George Zimmerman. Will this be an on going problem that will carry over into future discussions about other topics on this site? Perhaps it is time that each and every one of us take a deep breath and look inward to see what our part will be in determining the future of this site? This is a great group of people that despite our various and diverse back grounds have worked together like a family in the past and I hope will over come this bump in the road and do so again in the future…. Perhaps in the near future the Professor can find a legal case that we can all devote our minds and restore our common resolve to seek justice for those who need it the most… Peace and harmony to all…..

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Thanks for sharing your thoughts, crazy1946.

      I think it might be helpful to bring my earlier post here for those who might not have seen it:

      .
      .

      You all have thoughtful comments says:
      September 30, 2013 at 10:15 am

      I think what we have here in comments about Shellie are viewpoints based upon the personal experience of our family of posters.

      I was saddened to learn of the spousal abuse experienced by many of you. I understand how such an experience guides your assessment of Shellie.

      Yet, it is so very IMPORTANT to give validity to the African American experience in our country when it comes to the racial hatred directed at them.

      Many Black posters using their own personal experience to assess Shellie come to a different conclusion that I personally feel should be RESPECTED.

      We must remember that the gz verdict ESPECIALLY affects them and their families.

      • crazy1946 says:

        YAHTC, Your post is so much better than mine! I wish that my ability to write a post was even half a good as yours..

      • Rachael says:

        I agree with you YAHTC. I believe Shellie is as racist as they come, but like most racists doesn’t see it, which is why she doesn’t see it in GZ. Speaking of which, I would love for her to say GZ is FOS about “mentoring” black kids.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I think Shellie is more likely to transcend her erroneous beliefs than Fogen is.

        • bettykath says:

          It’s possible that Shellie isn’t as bigoted as fogen. Certainly she can’t speak up in disagreement. The best she can do is not laugh at his bigoted jokes. In different environment this might become more obvious. This doesn’t suggest that I know where her heart is. If she was raised with and by bigots, she needs more experiences to let a natural lack of bias (if she has one) to become apparent.

          I have always been somewhat aware of white and male privilege but no one would have known it. The best I could do is not laugh at jokes that demeaned women or people of other ethinicities/origins/differences. Eventually I became more sure of myself and less dependent on those who were bigoted. I not only didn’t laugh at the jokes, I challenged them. Didn’t make many friends that way, but these became people I didn’t want as friends if they didn’t see their own bigotry. Some did, some didn’t. I now attend protests railing against injustices, donate to organizations that actively work against injustice. It never was funny.

      • Malisha says:

        Every single African American person in this country has a right to a permanent life-time restraining order against Fogen.

  13. elcymoo says:

    Good news:
    State Senate Panel To Consider Changes To Neighborhood Watch Programs

    October 1, 2013 11:56 AM
    http://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/10/01/state-senate-panel-to-consider-changes-to-neighborhood-watch-programs/

    TALLAHASSEE (CBSMiami/NSF) – In the wake of George Zimmerman’s acquittal in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, a Senate committee will consider two bills which propose changes to neighborhood watch programs.

    The bills, sponsored by Senate Minority Leader Chris Smith, D-Fort Lauderdale and Sen. David Simmons, R-Altamonte Springs, call for local law-enforcement agencies to set guidelines for neighborhood-watch programs and would seek to prevent neighborhood-watch volunteers from confronting or trying to apprehend people suspected of wrongdoing.

    The bills will be heard in the Judiciary Committee on October 8th.

    Zimmerman was a neighborhood-watch volunteer in Sanford when an altercation led to Martin’s death.

    Smith’s bill would also make changes in the state’s controversial “stand your ground” law, such as prohibiting people from using the law as a defense if they leave places of safety to initiate confrontations.

    The News Service of Florida contributed to this report

    • Tzar says:

      The bills, sponsored by Senate Minority Leader Chris Smith, D-Fort Lauderdale and Sen. David Simmons, R-Altamonte Springs, call for local law-enforcement agencies to set guidelines for neighborhood-watch programs and would seek to prevent neighborhood-watch volunteers from confronting or trying to apprehend people suspected of wrongdoing.

      wait weren’t those guidelines already set?
      I don’t get it
      how about prosecuting people who, with hate in their heart and gun in hand, follow children in the dark? why don’t they do that?

      • elcymoo says:

        Those were NW ‘guidelines’, but they didn’t have the force of law. I’m not at all sure these proposals will become law, either, but it’s a step in the right direction.

      • towerflower says:

        Tzar, they were. He was to observe and report and not follow and confront. He also violated the rules of the NW by bringing a gun with him. (Yes, he had a legal right to carry through the Concealed license but he also knew from the training that he was not supposed to carry but violating the rules have no consequences).

    • Rachael says:

      I thought that was decided a while back that change wasn’t necessary. Glad they readdressed this and hope something comes of it.

      • towerflower says:

        Rachael, two different things. The lawmakers decided that the SYG law didn’t need to be changed. These lawmakers are now proposing local NW rules through local LE.

  14. elcymoo says:

    Good news:

    State Senate Panel To Consider Changes To Neighborhood Watch Programs

    October 1, 2013 11:56 AM
    http://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/10/01/state-senate-panel-to-consider-changes-to-neighborhood-watch-programs/

    TALLAHASSEE (CBSMiami/NSF) – In the wake of George Zimmerman’s acquittal in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, a Senate committee will consider two bills which propose changes to neighborhood watch programs.

    The bills, sponsored by Senate Minority Leader Chris Smith, D-Fort Lauderdale and Sen. David Simmons, R-Altamonte Springs, call for local law-enforcement agencies to set guidelines for neighborhood-watch programs and would seek to prevent neighborhood-watch volunteers from confronting or trying to apprehend people suspected of wrongdoing.

    The bills will be heard in the Judiciary Committee on October 8th.

    Zimmerman was a neighborhood-watch volunteer in Sanford when an altercation led to Martin’s death.

    Smith’s bill would also make changes in the state’s controversial “stand your ground” law, such as prohibiting people from using the law as a defense if they leave places of safety to initiate confrontations.

    The News Service of Florida contributed to this report

  15. bettykath says:

    Interesting. Playing a game of fb when I’m presented with an ad that asks for like for Louis Farakkan and/or a like for Cornell West. Think someone is filling a database?

  16. Sophia33 says:

    Very thoughtful comments by both you and Tzar.

  17. Rachael says:

    You won’t believe how these inmates spend their Sundays
    1 day ago

    Every Sunday, Susan Slotnick spends six hours leading what has to be America’s most unique dance class. The 68-year-old spends one day each week behind the heavy metal doors of the Woodbourne Correctional Facility in upstate New York, teaching her students — “convicted murderers, drug dealers and sex offenders,” according to CBC News — the power of dance. Slotnick founded this unconventional dance program seven years ago, and it is believed to be the only prison-based dance program in America.

    “I don’t see them as criminals,” Slotnick says of her students. “I see them as people who did something really wrong at one point in their lives, made a huge mistake, and that is not who they are.” Her current students are practicing for an upcoming performance in front of 800 of their fellow inmates, which sounds like a very literal definition of “tough crowd

  18. Rachael says:

    Explain to me how Florida can be so lax on actual gun laws but so strict on invisible guns?

    “The school refused to comment on Bennett’s case, but it did tell WFTV (and this is an actual quote, just in case you were looking for today’s sign of the apocalypse) that its code of conduct “prohibits students from playing with invisible guns.”

    http://now.msn.com/jordan-bennett-florida-boy-suspended-from-school-for-pointing-his-finger-like-a-gun?ocid=vt_fbmsnnow

    • towerflower says:

      Rachael, I live in Florida and have a son in a public school. I’ll try to answer. It has to do with “zero tolerance” run amok. It started with drugs, bring an aspirin to school and you’re treated as if you were dealing. Have a plastic knife in your lunch box and you’re treated as if you brought a weapon into the school

      Then came the school shootings and it has caused a “zero tolerance” in reference to anything with firearms. If your child draws a picture of daddy in the military holding his firearm will get you suspended or expelled as if you brought a firearm to school. (this did happen a few years ago). It’s like they are trying to send a message to children that guns of any type (real or imaginary) are not acceptable and come with the harsh punishments yet the children are not told of the consequences of a drawing, keychain, or finger. Another absurd case in Florida dealt with a deaf child whose name was Hunter. The sign for “hunter” contains a finger indicating a gun….as if it was a hunter. The school wanted the parents to change the name of the child.

      Common sense has gone out the window. This was something that could’ve been handled at the student level…..have teacher say we can’t play cops and robbers during playtime, come up with a different game, but to treat it as if the child had a real gun is absurd.

      In the past week there was also the case of an Orange County student who brought a handgun, clip with ammo, a hammer, and a knife to school. Why? Pretty serious right? The student was 9 yrs old and it was the weapons used in a “E” rated video game for hunting zombies. Could someone have been hurt? Absolutely and the child was arrested, but I feel the parents should have also been charged since they stored a gun and ammo within the grasp of their child (which is also against the law but rarely enforced even when a shooting happens).

      • Rachael says:

        Oh, I understand the Zero Tolerance thing and know it is happening around the country – and while I am totally opposed to violence, and perhaps to some extent guns, I see that as overkill (excuse the pun with regard to the word kill). But that is not the point. I just find it sort of nutso that Florida, where you can shoot first, ask later and if it is a black person shot or killed, that is fine, a state where a lunatic like GZ not only can get a concealed carry license but can get his gun back after the trial, even knowing what they know now (okay, so legally I know they can’t do anything about – yet – since he wasn’t convicted), how does a state that condones and practically promotes guns, shooting and killing (especially if it is a black male) have no tolerance in the schools?

        Real guns in Florida are fine, in fact encouraged, but pretend invisible guns are not?

        I hate Florida more and more each day.

        • towerflower says:

          Rachael, I don’t condone the loss of a life regardless of color. On Xena’s site I posted a link that showed the SYG cases and it was broken down to won, lost, or pending and it was broken down by race (white, black, and Hispanic) and the percentages of winning a SYG case and losing one are all about the same across the board with whites losing more. I don’t attribute it to the state condones the loss of life of one person over another as much as to which case gets the publicity.

          You won’t find Zimmerman or the Giles case in there because they didn’t use the SYG law but traditional self-defense. And I, like you, didn’t like the outcome of the Zimmerman case. I thought he should’ve been convicted of at least manslaughter.

          But there are cases like this all over the country and Florida isn’t the only state with outrageous outcomes…..John McNeil in Georgia comes to mind. Also with the zero tolerance cases I mentioned……they were all white.

          • Xena says:

            @towerflower. Zimmerman is on that link. He’s under “Hispanic.”

          • Rachael says:

            Yes, you are right Towerflower, and I’m ashamed of myself really – because like you said, no loss of life should be had over such a stupid, stupid law.

          • Xena says:

            Breaking down the cases of SYG in Florida is a project and I’m just getting started. There are cases of physical fights or domestic violence where a killing took place AFTER the cops appeared and made no arrest. There are also cases where both parties shot each other that did not result in death, and both parties were found justified.

            Of decided cases, I’ve learned that when the accused is White and the victim Black, 1 was convicted and 6 justified.

            When the accused is Black and the victim White, there have been 3 convictions and 4 justified.

            Of the 3 cases where the accused is Hispanic and the victim Black, all 3 were justified. (The Zimmerman case is under that category.) When the accused is Hispanic and the victim White, 3 were convicted and 2 justified.

            Eventually, I’ll do a spreadsheet on the details on those 22 cases. (Already have 2 on my blog; Dooley and Zimmerman.)

          • towerflower says:

            Xena, Thanks, I never looked into the Hispanic section since and I’m surprised he is listed there since he did not go for a SYG defense under the law.

            Also thank you for researching into the details of the cases. I did not read each case and looked only at the numbers. But looking at each case is also important since if we all knew the facts of each case would we also support the outcome regardless of the color of one’s skin. That is extremely important since would any of us condemn the use of SYG if the person’s life (regardless of color) were truly threatened?

          • Xena says:

            @towerflower.

            But looking at each case is also important since if we all knew the facts of each case would we also support the outcome regardless of the color of one’s skin. That is extremely important since would any of us condemn the use of SYG if the person’s life (regardless of color) were truly threatened?

            Exactly! I did read a few of the cases where the accused was not arrested and they involved killing another person during the commission of a crime, such as robbery in the home or car.

            A case I did find interesting (don’t remember the name now) is a recent one, where the older husband woke up, found his wife having sex on the living room floor, and killed the man. He said that he thought his wife was being raped. The wife said she was drunk. The man killed turned out to be the wife’s former boyfriend and the husband knew him. The jury found the husband not guilty.

  19. Tzar says:

    “The opposite of love is not hate, it’s indifference.”
    Eli Wiesel

    • Rachael says:

      Been on FB all day and was going to like this – and I still will. LIKE!!

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      “In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.”

      -Martin Luther King

      • Tzar says:

        irrelevant but my favorite quote by that man

        “But we stand in life at midnight; we are always on the threshold of a new dawn.”

        –Martin Luther King, Jr., “Pilgrimage to Nonviolence” in Strength to Love (1958)

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:

          Beautiful!

          kind of like

          “at the end of a storm is a golden sky and the sweet silvery song of the lark”

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            Gotta have the hope to fuel the journey toward possibilities…..to believe in fruition

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I have read about a half dozen books by Eli Wiesel.

  20. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Professor Leatherman,

    I want to express my deep admiration for all you have accomplished on this site in the cause of justice for Trayvon. You have given so much of yourself in the hours of research into the released evidence as well as expounding on the legal technicalities of the case.

    You have drawn to your site strong advocates for Trayvon from many different news sites who have brought their dedication and talented research abilities to share on your site making it one of the most outstanding blogs in the cause of Justice for Trayvon.

    You have willingly put yourself in the spotlight where zidiots have attacked you for your steadfast devotion to the cause of justice, and you have face cyber attacks and defamers from the zimmie crowd.

    You have my deepest gratitude. I thank you from my heart. You are to be commended.

    May there always be brave, articulate people like you who push for a better world!

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      As a friend who wishes the best for you, I hope you will think more about groans’ comment and take the time to absorb it.

      We all need to have things pointed out to us. I know I have, and it has made me a better person able to have a brighter light to shine in the world.

      • groans says:

        @ YAHTC:

        I appreciate your kind response to and support of my input. And, as I’ve indicated before, I admire your strength and integrity in standing up and speaking your own truths, even against the tide of group pressure. Only heroes do that sort of thing – and heroes are woefully hard to come by these days, it seems to me!

        And, you know, there’s just no way of knowing whether Fred might be giving some thought to our comments or not. Sometimes such things seep in over time without any conscious awareness, let alone acknowledgment. And sometimes not. But, really, no one needs to acknowledge any influences or say “uncle” or anything of the sort. All we can do is speak our truths. We can’t control what others might do with them.

        Just my thoughts … for whatever they may (or may not) be worth!

        BTW, “that little light of yours” shines brighter than you probably even know.

  21. You all have thoughtful comments says:

  22. JJ says:

    Tracy Martin and others are on the Katie Curic show on CBS. The theme is about the racial profiling / unfair deaths of young black men without conviction / or minimal prison time for the murderers including police.

  23. Allison says:

    To Whom it may concern:
    I realize that Shellie is a liar and I am in no way defending her. In the last few days I have seen it written on here that when Fogen made the hoodie comment Shellie laughed. I would like to ask for that to be corrected because its not true. I just went back and listened to the tape and she did not laugh, as quoted from the transcript her response was “mm hmm,mm hmm.” Then the word “so” it was obvious that she was changing the subject. There was no chuckle or even anything close to her participating in Fogens twisted joke.

    I dont post on here often but I do come here to read and it bothers me when someone can make a statement like that and nobody even checks to see if its true. Shellie is what she is, but there is no reason for people to make things up. The call is on April 17th and is call #6 on Axiom, there is also a transcript and its on page 11.

    I hope that people will verify the truths before judging others. I believe that we are better than this at least we should strive to be.

    Allison

    • bettykath says:

      Allison, thank you for checking this.

    • neveragain says:

      Thank you Allison…I hate that too..please don’t make things up…but here is how I interprete shellies response….she said hmmm to warn and remind gz that he was being recorded so he should be careful with his words….she could not say to him specifically to be careful because well………the world may hear his wife reprimanding him about joking about a dead kid………and this would not be good for him…..but it is ibviuos that he was comfortable joking abiut a dead kid with her because of their previous conversations….he simply forgot that this time around he was being recorded….

      • neveragain says:

        My interpretation may be wrong…ok

        • Allison says:

          I am not a mind reader and dont claim to be. I am also not an interpreter. Statements were being made that Shellie laughed or chuckled at Fogens hoodie comment and she did not. One comment went so far as to say her chuckling at that comment showed she was a racist too.

          That is totally unfair, her response is what it is and it was not a chuckle or a laugh.

          • Thank you for correcting the error.

            I am one of the people who made the error and I apologize for it.

            The error was unintentional. I relied on my memory and was mistaken.

            Excellent example to demonstrate the following principle:

            Since human memory is often unreliable, one should always check assertions of fact before publishing a report, article or comment.

            This practice is a required step in the editing process before submitting a professional paper for publishing.

            Put another way, shooting from the hip is a good way to shoot yourself in the foot.

          • neveragain says:

            No one on this earth can read other people’s mind……..but we do try to breakdown and understand things …….there are even experts in body language…can you believe it??

    • Trained Observer says:

      Allison — keep in mind there’s more than one “hoodie” reference in Fogen’s various taped jailhouse calls. In one with a female, believed his sister Gracie, she talkss about being so “touched” when she saw his hoodie and he snickers. Except for assisting with unintelligible parts of the audio, reading transcripts of these drivel-filled calls is not as insightful as listening.

      • neveragain says:

        What does that have to do with the phone call between gz and his wife???…when I read the comment about Shellie laughing I was questioning it too because I listened to the call but it has been a while so I brrushed it off….i was asking myself did she really laugh???…I should have said something then but I’m happy simeone checked it to confirm…………

      • Allison says:

        To Trained Observer
        I listened to the call several times before reading the transcript. I dont know about the calls with other people I am only speaking of the one between Shellie and Fogen and she did not laugh or chuckle at his comment about the hoodie.

  24. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    “In Memory of ALL the Trayvon Martins” across the world”

    Published on Aug 17, 2013 by William Robinson
    ALL LYRICS WRITTEN AND ARRANGED BY “WILROB MUSIC

  25. Tzar says:

    Well gosh…I was caught up in the moment
    but I totally get where you are coming from Prof.

  26. Deborah Moore says:

    Fred, I seem to have a comment hung up in the snagger.

  27. colin black says:

    We should all pause for thought an think off days when we were not .
    The selfless creautures that we know nought no one here is perfect all of us through willfill thought or carless thoughtlessness.

    Have cased harm an pain through selfishness that we repent with time spent in changing our ways .

    Of all the stupid wasted days an many of them you surely were crazed.

    None here can stand in a pulpit with damming eyes ablaze an point at a woman whom lived in a dazed an un happy life before she even had the miss fortune to become foggages Wife.

    We can condem her an call her depraved but how many here could have walked in her steps an come out unscathed.

    Its human to err but not if your HER she deserves no ones hate she isn’t that great she deserves all of our pity her life will never ever be pretty.

    Stop Shellaking Shellie it realy isn’t nessasery.

    ecossiepossie,comcopyrightthisway.com.uk,scotland,mussleburghwasaburghbeforetherewasanedinburghanmusselburghwillbeaburghwhenthereisnaeedinburgh. .

  28. Bev Lawson says:

    Fred: Cheers, LA has released Herman Wallace on a habeas ruling and also awarded him a new trial….immediate release….I made a note on FDL so I hope you get this….Im out for awhile…

    • Bev Lawson says:

      I now hear that the State authorities are not honoring the order for release by the Federal Judge. Wallace is still being held…..what next?

      • Bev Lawson says:

        Late this evening, after a 2nd Order by the Judge, and the promise not to leave his office until the release, Mr. Wallace has finally been released and taken to a hospital in NO. Thank God after all this cruelty something good has happened.

  29. Deborah Moore says:

    Hey! lookie here.
    U.S. District Court Judge Kurt Engelhardt ordered former homicide detective Arthur “Archie” Kaufman released from federal prison Monday, allowing him to remain free on bond during an expected retrial of the Danziger Bridge police shooting case.
    http://theadvocate.com/news/7207349-123/danziger-defendant-released-on-bond

  30. Trained Observer says:

    New York Daily News aptly sums it up …

    tps://twitter.com/NYDailyNews/status/385013465573634048/photo/1

    Twitter / NYDailyNews: HOUSE OF TURDS …
    twitter.com
    Instantly connect to what’s most important to you. Follow your friends, experts, favorite celebrities, and breaking news.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Plus a WWII vets group from Mississsippi has defied the shutdown and broken through barricades to the open-air WWII memorial in D.C.

  31. Woow! says:

    OT: It has been a while since I’ve posted; very busy with work and school.

    The TeaPublicans got their wish of a government shutdown and POTUS and the Dems did not cave. I guess playing chicken with the POTUS didn’t work in the GOP favor this go round..heehee

    I hope people start to see these guys for what they are.

    By the way, my employer’s insurance was $467 per pay check with a $7,000 deductible. Me and my family don’t go to the doctor enough to meet the deductible therefore we were paying full price for doctor’s visits on top of high insurance. I enrolled around 2 am this morning and I am getting platinum insurance in Texas for $130 a month for a family of four including dental yeehaw!!!!!

    • crazy1946 says:

      Woow!, But how could you possibly get insurance that cheaply? Didn’t you listen to the GOP/TP, and according to them your cost should be at least $13,000.00 a month under this program…. Hmmm, don’t suppose they were lying to us were they? No that could never happen……

    • Good news.

      Congratulations.

    • Rachael says:

      Wow!!! So far I found $200 for just me.

      • Trained Observer says:

        I believe everyone will encounter either lower rates and/or improved coverage — with additional benefits on preventing illness.Plus people with pre-existing conditions will no longer be screwed.

      • Girlp says:

        Rachael I went through a couple of periods without insurance because I do have some conditions it was hard getting my medication I had to buy them every 2 weeks with the exeception of 1 that was $15.00 at the time. I tried to buy insurance during my second layoff and could not because of a pre-existing conditon I was referred to the state (SC), they wanted $1,000 a month and I was on unemployment at the time, $200 compared to $1,000 I would jump for joy. Keep checking you may find a better price.

    • Girlp says:

      Congrats! :))

  32. colin black says:

    Happy OCTOBER ALL you Pumkin Heads hope your inerrwebb isn’t on strike like your government.

    polititians could never go on strike as no one would notice.

    They do fluff all anyways.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      Hi, Colin.
      Some folks say Rabbit, Rabbit on the first day of the month.
      For luck.
      (We don’t need no stinkin’ luck. Okay, you’re right. Maybe we do.)
      You’ve written some Wonderfully Fabulous comments lately.

  33. Deborah Moore says:

    Fred, sorry to get personal here, but I need your address so that I can mail you the book, Oil and Water. Sissy is bringing a copy to me tomorrow. 🙂

    • colin black says:

      Oil an Water will mix.

      All that’s required is an emulcyifieing agent

      It breaks the bonds of the oil an water at a cellular level an allows two substances that normally repell each other .

      To mix mustard is an excellent natural emullciefier..

      Pity the only emulciefieing agent that occours in the realms of Humanity .
      The one thing guaranteed to join people of all creeds sexes sexuall orientation colour of there skin .

      The only emulcyfieing agent that will bond them like super glue is wealth.

      Self intrest is colour blind…

      Sorry for the kind off O T Reply Deborah but I to love to read an am interested in this book you allude to.

      Im not hanging wallper honest.G.

  34. MDH says:

    Professor.

    Keep in mind that those who may appear to hate are the real victims of the BS Shellie either believes in or actively enabled. Unless she comes clean, why should they have sympathy for her.

    Has she even acknowledged that racism exists in the USA?

    Has she even considered that Trayvon was a victim of the “all black males are super human violent thugs” meme?

    Has she shown any interest in reaching out to the Martin’s to see what Trayvon and, for that matter, black people really are about?

    Until she realizes that her husband is a thug who used that stereotype to save his cowards ass, then how can she be saved?

    All I see is a women pissed off because she did not get to go on her husbands trophy deer kill tour.

    Kind of hard not to hate or loath people like that.

    In a world where all humans are equally valid, even if I did justifiably kill another man, I would spend the rest of my life in remorse dedicated to trying to prevent that event from happening to others.

    Instead, George gets more guns. That is one sick puppy.

    • Rachael says:

      very good post

    • dianetrotter says:

      Is it possible that Shellie has reason to make guarded comments? Remember, she must know a whole lot of racist. The Internet shows that George has a lot of support. It is easy for someone to kill her or her family. This may not be the case but it is certainly possible. Hatred can make people do terrible things.

  35. The only Shelley I care about is Shelley Winters in the Poseidon Adventure…they don’t make ladies like that anymore, Who remembers these famous Shelley’s: Shelley Berman, Shelley Fabares, Mary Wolstencraft Shelley, Shelley Long. I went to a beach once that was hard to walk on without flips flops because it was very shelley. And finally I think I’m going to have a peanut butter and shelly sandwich and watch the government shut down on Dish TV. It’s a great satellite service, but there always trying to shell you something.

  36. The only Shelley I care about is Shelley Winters in the Poseidon Adventure…they don’t make ladies like that anymore, Who remembers these famous Shelley’s: Shelley Berman, Shelley Fabares, Mary Wolstencraft Shelley, Shelley Long. I went to a beach once that was hard to walk on without flips flops because it was very shelley. And finally I think I’m going to have a peanut butter and shelly sandwich and watch the government shut down on Dish TV. It’s a great satellite service, but there always trying to shell you something. 😉

  37. neveragain says:

    And as for gz…for killing an innocent 17 year old…I wanted him to suffer…I wanted him to regret the day he was born…I hoped that he would go to jail and get raped on a daily basis…but he escaped justice as most of us knew he would…sorry I’m only human…..gz may suffer on this earth but he still has a chance to ask God for forgiveness…this is y I wanted him to recieve some suffering on this earth

  38. groans says:

    Professor, I appreciate your posting this healing message, as I believe it was much needed. And you certainly describe your concept of, and philosophies about, hatred clearly and eloquently. That’s interesting, but it is what it is: your own personal thoughts – and nothing more.

    Unfortunately, I think you missed the mark as far as the big picture.

    When I saw “apology” in your headline, I expected just that. But that’s not what you delivered. You gave what I perceive as a “Zimmerman-type” non-apology, saying: “I apologize for the confusion that I caused.”

    But you didn’t cause any “confusion”! You were clear as a bell over the weekend. You epitomized the declarations and rash judgments of a KING! What you “caused” were false conclusions, insult, favoritism, belittlement, pain – and even BANISHMENT of jm. (Someone “pisses you off”?? POOF! They’re GONE! It’s your prerogative, after all, isn’t it? “You’re welcome,” you said to a couple/few who were grateful for the silencing … and to the many who quickly reverted to kowtowing.)

    And you caused all that, and more, by authoritatively projecting some supposed “hatred” onto your own supporters! No matter how much they implored over and over again: “I don’t hate anyone, I’m just calling it like I see it!” It fell on deaf ears. You even made a headline about “rage and hatred” not belonging in our hearts and blogs (which was at least half hypocritical, and wholly condescending).

    Look back at the previous day’s comments about Shellie. NOBODY said they hated her or anybody else. NOBODY! Rage, perhaps; but that would be an exaggeration IMO, considering how we chat here. No – what we see is a typical happy banter until someone jumps in and tells someone else where they may and may not comment. That seems to be where hell started breaking loose.

    The “negative” comments about Shellie were NOT actually a minority view, as I coined them yesterday. They were the majority view. And you quashed that voice because it bugged you and maybe a couple/few others.

    Now you say it was “the tone of many comments rejecting the possibility that she was a battered spouse was insensitive and disrespectful of the comments and feelings of many of our readers who have recently admitted that they were abused.” How very sensitive of you, eh? Perhaps. Or perhaps disingenuous, since that certainly doesn’t fit in with your explanation about how you’ve learned to control your emotions in order to be a rational, logical trial lawyer. For some reason you apparently seem to think that it’s OK to falsely characterize many people’s comments as hateful (unacceptably emotional), and thus fatally tainted. Yet some others whose opinions may well be very emotionally influenced by a personal history of abuse are somehow magically deemed completely rational and not at all tainted by emotion? There’s some doubletalk in that sort of thinking.

    Your apology needs to be for ripping (some, but not all) people apart unfairly for what you declared to be “hate and rage” in statements, which those people repeatedly and emphatically assured you they do not feel (and therefore did not “emote”). It should also include an invitation to “jm” to come back into the fold.

    I was attracted to this site – as countless others were – because I had an interest in justice: Justice for Trayvon. Well, that hasn’t come about yet, but I’m still and always interested in justice everywhere. Including here. You can TALK “Namaste” all you want, but it’s the fairness and justice that you WALK that tells us who you are.

    • neveragain says:

      Oh wow oh wow..I will say it again I do not hate Shellie , I have no reason to hate her and I did not see hatred in any of the other comments that gave their negative opiniom of her………..I am an honest individual…..and I totally agree with your comment…….I will say it again I wish I had writing skills like you guys, my sentences are so simple, my vocabulary is so limited

      • neveragain says:

        Just to clarify…..I am human so I may hate someone who has done me wrong…but it need to be somthing really bad…likephisically hurt me…leaving a scar or injury that affects my daily living, cause me to loose my job and ruin my life as a result……….Shellie did not kill trayvon…she was not a criminal otherwise and I did not want her to be punished for the purjery charge………there are many people out ther who are nor criminals, they do not rape, steal or kill yet they are still rotten to the core……they hate to see others succeed, they try to pull u down no,mattwr how nice you are to them………I do not know Shellie on that level, but I do know that she is a blatant liar who has no compassion…that’s my opinion of her for the time being

    • Rachael says:

      I have to say I actually agree with this (not sure about the jm part though becase jm wasrude to posters) but I see what you see too.

      • Mary Davis says:

        @ Rachael. No offense Rachael, but how was jm rude to posters. Rachael, I read and reread the posts, but I just didn’t see it.

        • Mary Davis says:

          @ Rachael. Maybe I didn’t see jm being rude to posters because I wasn’t on the receiving end.

        • Rachael says:

          If I remember correctly, it wasn’t on the thread where he/she was banned, it was on the one written the day before and I remember being very angry and just not even contributing that day, so when I saw that on the thread written the next day he/she was banned, I wasn’t exactly unhappy about it. So I’d have to go back to the day before that and look at that one and I don’t know what it was, just that I remember feeling that way but not saying anything because I was too busy anyway.

          • Mary Davis says:

            @ Rachael. Thank you for your reply. No need to go back to look for the posts. Now if these people just stay out of the spotlight, they would give us a chance to heal from this injustice.

            IMO, it is time to move on. There are other cases like Trayvon’s that need our attention.

    • shyloh says:

      I really like your comment. I did and still feel Shellie is a scorned woman by her actions on the 911 call. Now she is trying to somewhat say she wants to remain quiet but goes out on a media tour. I don’t hate people, I don’t like what they do at times but who’s right and who’s wrong? Opinions are just that.

      If someone punched my father in the face, and the cop said, “if you press charges you’ll both go to jail,” I’d say, “arrest me then and the judge can sort it out! ” I don’t know if Shellie was abused or not, only her and George know! I can only speak by what I hear and what I see (scorned). Then again, I could be totally wrong. I have been (once) in this life time.

    • masonblue says:

      I read your comment, disagree, and reaffirm what I said.

      • groans says:

        @ masonblue:

        Really? Well, geez…. I’d call the Thought & Speech Police on you, but I have a rather deep-seated aversion to thought and speech police. Perhaps you’ve noticed. 😉

        Namaste.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Thanks for sharing your insights, groans.

      I agree with you.

  39. Jeanette says:

    Professor, I must admit I was very much disillusioned at what I saw upon 2 random visits precipitated by e-mail notifications I actually had the time to review, wherein I perceived the tone of your blog entries and a good many associated replies as demanding no less than compassion and an illogical benefit of the doubt in contemplation of ill-defined potential, future redemptive actions of Shellie Zimactions, post-GZ. All so much that, I contemplated never visiting your site again.

    A few things: I really respect what you’ve done here, in clarifying your own position while holding true to it, despite the controversy, and making clear that other differing positions may exist and have the potential for validity in their own rite or at least are deserving of a forum in which to be heard. In following up, I find your actions nothing but gracious as a host and honorable as a man.

    I count myself amongst those so inclined to judge Shellie in the moment, based on the information we do have available–perjuring herself in support of her husband facing a murder rap, mocking the contextual elements surrounding the murder of a child, willingly profiting from the murder of that same child and conspiring to prevent a father from being an active party to justice in the murder of his son. These are the things we do know and, personally, it would take a tremendous amount of publicly-disclosed introspection and revelations from Shellie, absent her positioning herself as the primary victim of GZ or a willing beneficiary of his notariety, to feel anything other than contempt for her.

    The quick & dirty version–she didn’t and still doesn’t, to this day, seem terribly motivated by anything beyond her own needs and claims on personal survival, but hey, she’s a White female legally permitted to carry a primary tool of death in the State of Florida, which gives her about 10 and a half more chances than Trayvon Martin ever had, and all of which seem to feed into the same inexplicable need to make either Zimmerman a victim, tangible evidence to the contrary aside, and perpetuating the same victimhood birthright that allowed Trayvon Martin to be stalked and executed, while his murderer and his number one fan remain alive and free to whine in perpetuity about how difficult their lives are.

    Based on everything Shellie, herself, has given us to work with, I haven’t a compelling reason to give two shits about what happens to her at the hands of GZ. While I don’t wish her death, she actively campaigned to free a murderer and she got what she wanted. The saying “be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it” comes to mind here. She ought not to fear what harm may come in her next chapter with him, as the moment she dutifully high-jumped over the fact that her husband shot an unarmed, innocent teenager in the heart, she was already dead, in every way that really matters. She just doesn’t know it, yet.

    Thank you in advance for allowing a different take on the matter and expanding the opportunity for similar voices.

  40. I’ve never won a game of poker hating the other players.

    • groans says:

      Have you ever won a game of poker by loving the other players? Just curious … very curious!

      Thanks in advance.

      • Hi groans! Yes, I play amateur pro poker, tourneys in Vegas, etc.

        If I don’t love & see my opponents as equal & worthy competitors I then create a demigod. I can bluff a human & play my hand well – but when I hate another soul I’m not seeing myself in them & then I’m just guessing what the hell my opponents are going to do. That’s always a bad play

        In poker as in life, we’re really always playing against ourselves.

        I repeat Simon Weisenthal’s quote, “Justice, not vengeance”.

        Have an amazing October 1st!

        • Rachael says:

          Awesome!

        • groans says:

          @ HamRadioElijah – Wow!! I had no idea that a poker tournament might actually be some kind of ever-so-subtle love fest! 😉

          Seriously, though: What an important Life Lesson to be learned from such (dare I suggest) an improbable source as poker strategy! It’s a foreign venue to me, but I do believe I understand what you’re saying. And I’m pretty sure I won’t be able to resist sharing it with others … unless you object, that is.

          Thanks for the interesting perspective and the giggles I enjoyed while learning it. But I can assure you that I did not giggle at your gem of a summation:

          In poker as in life, we’re really always playing against ourselves.

          That’s what I’d call “spot on.”
          Thank you again!

  41. MichelleO says:

    I am glad to say that I have never “hated” anyone. I have felt intense dislike, but never hatred. I understand that hatred drives people insane or to murder. Americans have a tendency to overuse words to the point of rendering the definition meaningless. For instance, Americans like to say that they “love” just about every thing, when in fact, they do not.

    • groans says:

      So true. I am convinced that different people have different concepts of “hate.”

      I’ve never “hated” anyone, either. But I am also fairly certain that my concept of “hate” is more extreme than what I sense from hearing others talk about it. So I definitely don’t feel superior – morally, or otherwise – to anyone who express hate, because I believe that comparing concepts of “hate” among people is like comparing apples and oranges.

  42. bettykath says:

    I’ve had opportunities to hate. What a waste of energy! And objectivity. It was consuming. I fantasized some really hateful violence. When I started to think about how I could actually do some of the violence I took a few deep breaths and seriously worked at getting rid of the hatred. I still have fell disgust for the persons involved, but not hatred. And no more violent thoughts. Getting rid of the hatred was so liberating. As Professor has pointed out, hatred does screw up our objectivity. Actually, strong emotions one way or the other tend to mess with our objectivity.

    • pat deadder says:

      Someone wrote this quote on here a long time ago I forgot to write down who.
      I will permit no man to narrow and degrade my soul by making me hate him.
      I read it often to get back on track.

  43. dianetrotter says:

    I fully understood what you were saying. It seems like every discussion, no matter what, goes right back to Zimmerman. Hatred can make you more miserable than the people you hate. At my age I have to conserve my energy.

    • Mary Davis says:

      @ dianetrotter. Me too.

      • Mary Davis says:

        @ YAHTC. I wouldn’t worry about not speaking to a large audience. One on one can be just as effective. More intimate with a one on one. There will also be other opportunities available.

        I knew you had been an advocate for a while, but I did not know about your extensive library and collections. Way to go.

        Keep up the good work, You are doing and will continue to do a great service for the cause. Keep us posted.

    • groans says:

      It seems like every discussion, no matter what, goes right back to Zimmerman. Hatred can make you more miserable than the people you hate.

      @ dianetrotter: I don’t understand what you’re trying to communicate, and I’m afraid that your comment just continues muddying the waters here.

      Both statements may well be true, but I am unable to see any logical connection between them (it’s what I’d call a “non sequitur”). Are they simply two completely separate thoughts? If so:

      1. It’s important to remember that “Zimmerman” is what brought us all together here! It’s the single topic on which we have long shared a common interest and many common opinions. Therefore, it seems perfectly natural, to me, that our conversations would have an EXTREMELY strong tendency to gravitate toward that subject … or else gradually fade over time. (And I think that skimming through blog post responses since the verdict might prove that hypothesis.)

      2. I don’t have any comment about your hatred statement; I basically agree with it.

      IMO, having an interest in “Zimmerman” topics does not — at all, or in any way — equate with feeling, “emoting,” or harboring hatred. Thanks.

      • dianetrotter says:

        @ groans, I came to the blog about a year ago because of references on Huffington Post and I found the blog to be very informative. I discovered that most people were already familiar with each other and, I assumed, had been members of the blog for a while discussing a variety of subjects. I don’t think Professor created the blog to discuss George Zimmerman, however, the topic has been the most popular. Professor and Crane have a lot of expertise and, possibly wrongly, I assumed they wanted to discuss a variety of legal topics.

        On the second comment, I’m dealing with a lot of age and ADA discrimination at work. Four years ago my doctor told me to relax and he prescribed three medications. I was able to stop xanax. Any misstep could be to my detriment so I have to fight m y battle mentally. After I had the courage to file the complaint and go through the interview, others are coming out of the woodwork to support me. My motto has been “Don’t get mad … get documentation.” The union is advising others who have problems to talk to me about how to proceed. This is a long, long story but I think you get the point.

        • groans says:

          @ dianetrotter:

          I believe you’re correct. I think the Justice For Trayvon movement took on a “life of its own” here by circumstance, fate, or whatever, rather than by design. And I’d guess that it felt like a good ride while the prosecution was ongoing, but may be getting rather “old” for Fred and Crane now, to the extent that tangential, aftermath “issues” drag on ad nauseum yet lack the gravity and significance of the original cause. They both seem to have their sights set on some bigger fish that still need frying but were put on the back burner for the sake of Justice for Trayvon. (Obviously, I don’t know any of this; it’s just my guess.)

          As for the second matter, my heart goes out to you in a huge way. Few things are as distressful as work issues that threaten one’s very livelihood – especially those of the magnitude and rancor that you’re tackling. Thank heavens you have some support from others nearby and the internal strength and wisdom to keep your cool while building your case. It’s clearly a compliment that you’re viewed as a model for others to emulate. I wish you the best (as trite as that always seems to sound, it is genuine) and continued strength and wisdom to prevail over your adversaries.

          And thank you for your response! I believe I understand your original comment now. Ain’t communication great?

          Godspeed.

          • dianetrotter says:

            “Ain’t communication great?” That is an understatement groans. I tell my students all the time that they should not fight. They should discuss. When they can’t discuss, come to me and I will faciliate.

            My principal is out for blood now. He turns down everything I want to do for my kids. It gives me opportunity to document! Today he turned down our talent show date. I let kids and parents know what is going on. They are very supportive and some get in his face.

            Thanks groans!

      • Malisha says:

        I think the reason everything keeps going back to Fogen’s case is that we are in a bizarre time in our national adolescence: and really, everything is LIKE the Fogen case and everything is ABOUT the Fogen case and everything is informed by what happened in the Fogen case.

        Do we have honest courts that can adjudicate issues to protect our society from deteriorating?

        NO. Witness: The Fogen case.

        Is there a problem with violence, hatred, reacism?

        YES. Witness: the Fogen case.

        Does money say more than merit?

        Obviously. Witness the Fogen Case.

        Is our government consumed by corruption?

        YES. Witness: the Fogen case.

        Is gun violence becoming the destruction of our culture?

        YES. Witness the Fogen case.

        The Fogen case is NOT about a Black kid who got killed while bearing candy. It’s about the lies our government has promulgated for 400 years, the moral bankruptcy of our legal system, the institutionalization of white supremacy, the perversion of the media, and the wholesale intimidation of ordinary Americans (B-29) so that we can never correct our problems because nobody’s brave enough to even call a murder a crime.

        We’re done for because of the Fogen case.

  44. Mary Davis says:

    Professor. I had no intention of disrespecting you, Crain, or anyone in your house. I felt the way I did because, after reading the comments back and forth (including mine), I began to feel uncomfortable. Then after you made your statements, I felt I had to post a certain way in order to be accepted. For me, it was a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situation.

    Like I said in my post, I don’t hate Shellie, I don’t even hate GZ, but I do hate what GZ did. He murdered Trayvon in cold blood, and we all know he’s a liar. I hate the deed. I hate what Shellie did. She lied to the court about their assets, and I do believe she flat out lied on Tracy Martin. She snugged her nose at Sabrina in the courtroom, she had no compassion for her then, therefore imho her so- called apology was not sincere. I hate her actions.

    I have stated in previous posts that I have also been abused. I can certainty relate to that, and I do believe Shellie has been abused mentally, if not physically as well. I can recognize a mentally abused person a mile away, but I just don’t see Shellie as a minor character in this tragedy. The only difference I see between Shellie and GZ is Shellie didn’t pull the trigger. I don’t have anything substantial to go on, but imo I believe Shellie aided and abetted a murderer.

    I hope we can agree to disagree on this. This is just my opinion.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      *hugs*

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I am glad you shared your opinion, Mary.

        • Rachael says:

          Me too – and I’m inclined to agree.

        • Mary Davis says:

          Hi YAHTC. Thank you. I’ve been thinking about you. How was your speaking engagement?. I was rooting for you. I have a feeling it was positive and you made a difference.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            Carmen and her daughter came here for lunch and the afternoon in August and I felt bolstered enough to feel I could manage to speak this fall for 5 minutes followed by 15 minutes of discussion with a group of about 40 members.

            Then when Carmen emailed me in September for speaking in October, it turned out I was to speak for a half an hour…..the second half of a church service……followed by a 20 minute discussion with about 40 people who stay after the service.

            I had to call Carmen and let her know that I wanted to be effective in helping people understand white privilege and due the cause justice, but with my weak speaking ability I might be a disservice to the cause under the difficult requirement of speaking to a large audience for a half an hour instead of an setting with an intimate group. (I have been doing better getting the word out on white privilege on a one to one basis.)

            Long story short…I am not going to speak.

            Mary, talk about my white privilege! If my children’s safety (lives) were at stake as it is every day for African Americans, do you think I would have declined because of my inability to speak for a half an hour??

            Anyway, Carmen told me that the program chairman had earlier informed her that a talented intellectual speaker nearby was available to speak on white privilege…..but Carmen told me that she was going to tell the program chairman that because I could not give the speech, she did not want the other person to give it ….her reason was that I would have spoken from the heart and the other person, from the mind. She only wanted me to give the talk.

            I am going to post this now and add a bit more in 5 or 10 minutes to let you know what Carmen and I still will be doing in another area.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            Carmen and her daughter are going to come next week for the afternoon. She was interested in looking at my extensive library on the African American experience and literature.

            We are also going to go through my civil rights era memorabilia (flyers, buttons, wire photos, etc.) and pick out some that I can display at an African American center she belongs to. I also am going to give her 50 African American children picture books to be displayed and then given to her local library. (I have about 150 in my collection, and I just reordered 50 duplicates of the best ones to give to her next week.)

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            correction to my 1st post:

            should be “do justice to the cause”

            don’t know why I wrote “due the cause justice”

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Hey, I can appreciate that we have all shades of opinions on this. Also that we probably waver too – some days I feel genuine compassion for the Fogens and other days I’d like to smack them silly. I know though that it’s not good for me to hate except to hate the wrong action and to try to uplift others no matter what.

  45. neveragain says:

    Xena…..what is the name of your site??

    • Xena says:

      @neveragain.

      what is the name of your site??

      Blackbutterfly7.wordpress.com

      I also contribute to 3Chicspolitico on issues involving GZ’s case.

  46. neveragain says:

    Judge Judy …..judge Judy….look at judge jydy people…..I like the way she silence the liars in her court…..no, I don’t believe you, that’s a lie…you are lying…that is not the way you or anybody else would have responded….you are not fooling me…….that is after she has asked numerous questions and listen to accounts of the plaintiffs and defendants…..

    • colin black says:

      Yes but that’s in her position of Authourty as a Judge.

      When your a Judge in a court sitting on Bench your the Boss.

      You can say SILANCE an the party your addressing must concour.

      In real life when engaged in a conversation where the person is obviously lieing to you an spouting fairy tales designed to lead you up a garden path.

      Theres no point in calling them on there B S there not going to fesss up you already know there blatantly lieing to you.

      An your not L E or a Judge you have no respect in there eyes .

      So its far more usesfull to smile an nod an offer the quickest line of least resistance.
      An quickest exit an simply x them from your brain no one lieing to me knows me or is a close friend so I don’t even bother confronting blatent liars .

      Its never going to be a lossss if I never see them or talk to them.But theres all sorte of proffeinal liars these days Ive discovered.
      Cold callers pretending to have insight an knowlage on loans ect you’ve taken out an how you’ve been over charged intrest for Insurance you never needed?

      P P I I had one on the phone for 90 mins one day .

      Saying are you telling me my banks been ripping me of?
      YES he says .

      An when I get bored messing with them I tell them Ive never had a loan or an overdraft or even a credit card in my life

      Its the best way to get off there call lists waste there time an money as being polite doesnt work

      Mind you Im a guy that invites Mormons into my home an have them heading for the exit rapidio.

      • neveragain says:

        uumm I don’t waste my time with liars either…they just lie and lie even more…just like they do with judge Judy…like they do on the Steve wilkis show and Maury pauvich show after the lie detective test prove they are lying…the say the lie detective test is not acurate and they are telling the truth….and yes there are alit of liars…a lie is a lie and alot of people lie for no reason at all…i just sit and listen ………

  47. kllypyn says:

    I don’t hate anyone unless they give me a reason to do so. I will admit that on very rare occasion i have instantly disliked people and 98% of the time i’m proven right,but there occasion when i’ve wrong. like a coworker that i recently apologized to for instantly did liking him he never knew until i apologized because i was wrong about him. turns out he is a really nice guy.needless to say he was surprized. The point is i never hate anyone without a reason. and i try to give people whom i dislike a chance. If i’m wrong about them i admit it.

  48. neveragain says:

    When a person is charged and appears before a magistrate….lets say they saw a large screen TV with a very low price of $1.00 written on it…..they pick it up and a naive casher cashes and they live with their TV…….the store realizes that a mistake was made and ask the customer to pay for the television ………the costumer refuses and is taken to court………….the magistrate will pass their verdict based on how the AVERAGE INDIVIDUALL WOULD HAVE ACTED IN THE SAME SITUATION…..THE AVERAGE INDIVIDUAL WOULD CHECK TO MAKE SURE THAT THAT WAS THE ACTUALL COST OF THE TELEVISION AND a mistake was not made in applying the price tag……..THE AVEAGE PERSON WHO HEAR gz’s story would have lots of questions because his version of the fight makes no sense……….a 17 year old died……you may not ask alot of questions at the begining.//the first day after the shooting but……….

    • neveragain says:

      Baby …I was just thinking….why did you look down when you saw trayvon walking towards u…y would u take your eye off him??

      • colin black says:

        Because I was feeling in my left pocket for my cell an didn’t believe the sencory perception of touch.
        Were my hands an fingers lieing to me as I was feeling for my phone an nada.

        An this big dudes comeing at me an my fingers are still telling me nothing hear.

        So not trusting my sence of touch I decided to let vision have a go .

        So takeing my eyes of the approaching up to no good dude I vervied with them that yup my fingers an hands had be telling me the truth the entire time.

        There indeed was no phone in my left pocket.

        So to encapsulate it for you Shellie I hears a Sound an had to use my vision .
        Its a gift!

        I couldn’t ever find my phone till later but I did find a big stonking gun with one in the chamber ready to kill.

    • neveragain says:

      We are not talking about spur of the moment situation here…..like someone approaching you with a knife…one person would run and scream while someone else would freeze in shock unable to move……we are talking aboyt a woman sleeping on the same bed with a man who told a story of how he defended himself…a story that makes no sense

  49. pat deadder says:

    Mr. Leatherman after reading your story about your parents I was shocked.I had this notion your upbringing was like Father Knows Best because you are so fair,
    I won’t go into mine just to say my Mother was my saving grace.
    I’ve come to the conclusion being treated badly as a child seems to bring empathy which is quite surprising.But then again fogen’s friend said fogen was beaten by his Mother so there must be more to it than that.
    There were 6 children in our family my brother passed away at 43 but when my Father was dying he asked to come and live with me and he apologized to me for his abuse.
    I told him I would not have changed one minute of my life. Although it did cause me to stay with an abusive drunk for 25 years but of course I didn’t say that.
    I will not hate..As far as Shelly sometimes I understand her actions.

    • Rachael says:

      One thing I have learned over the years is that no one ever knows what they would do in ANY situation until they are in it. Oh you may think you would know and you might say “I would never…” but until you really are faced with it, it is my opinion you really just don’t know.

      Do I understand Shellie’s actions (more like her inactions). Perhaps. Do I excuse them. No. She, like anyone else had choices. However, I can understand her feeling like she didn’t and trying to protect herself in the only way she felt able to given her circumstances. Does that make it right? No. Does that excuse them? No.

      I can understand a person stealing food because they have none and they (and perhaps their kids) are hungry. Does that make it okay to have stolen? No. Were there other things that person could have done to feed themselves (and perhaps their kids)? Most likely. Did they feel they could do those other things? I don’t know. Maybe if they had felt they could find another way, they would have, maybe they just did what they felt they had to at the time. I can understand it. I don’t necessarily condone it – and of course that leads to another topic about me not condoning anyone having to be hungry in this country, but that isn’t the topic here.

      Just because you have empathy for someone, doesn’t mean you give them a free pass. It doesn’t mean you trust them or think they won’t pull something over on you.

      I know some are suspicious that she is saying what she is now in public so that is why they don’t trust her. But if she said nothing, would that make you feel she is any more sincere or would you say hmmm, notice how that lying Shellie just disappeared? Also, it is possibly (not saying this is so, just possible) that the reason she did it publicly is because it makes it harder for her to back down. It is like enlisting support.

      And if she does write a tell-all book? Lots of people do. In fact, any many recovery programs journaling is encouraged for the recovery process. And again, the public part could also be for her to keep her in line. Or maybe she is a lying conniving schemer. IDK. If she takes the proceeds and buys a new car, a new house, new clothes, yeah. I guess she is. If she gives the proceeds to Trayvon’s parents for their foundation or to a domestic violence shelter or something, I’d feel very differently about it.

      Yeah, I too sometimes might understand her actions. Do I hate that she did nothing about it when she could have? Yes. But I don’t hate her and I understand she might have felt she had no choice.

      It is very easy to say everyone has a choice when you are not tied up (literally or figuratively).

      And sometimes fear of abandonment is even stronger than the fear of being killed. If you lost a parent/parents at a very young age or perhaps were adopted, this might be something you understand – but a “normal” person would not (not saying the other is “abnormal” just using that for illustrative purposes).

      See, here is the thing – feelings are feelings. Feelings have no right or wrong. They are just feelings. You are entitled to your feelings. Your feelings, let’s say, growing up in a 2-parent intact family might be VERY different about breaking up with someone than if your mom died when you were 7 or your dad went to prison or something. This doesn’t mean how you handle things in order to keep things intact is right – in fact, they may be wrong because you are not just having feelings (which are neither right nor wrong) but you are acting on them. It is the actions that can be right or wrong

      And now I’m just babbling, so good bye.

      • pat deadder says:

        Wow Rachael That was amazing. I will say if Shelley wrote a book I would be more than pissed off .You have given me a lot to think about.

      • Xena says:

        @Rachael. I have the tendency to ask the what-if when people are dishonest because throwing that around helps get to their motivation for being dishonest and that can help in how we see the person. For instance, what if Shellie had told the truth about the money at the bond hearing?

        What I get when throwing that question around is that Judge Lester would have still granted a bond. It might have been up to the million that the State requested. The end result would have been better for GZ. He would have paid the $100K on the million dollar bond with about $40K remaining. Chances are that he would have had independent decision-making over what was remaining, as well as any forthcoming donations.

        Ultimately, Shellie’s lie resulted in taking control of the money from GZ, and placed it in the hands of O’Mara who placed it in the hands of a trust administrator.

        I guess what I’m trying to say is that when seeing the result of her lie, it takes some of the bite out of her doing so. She and GZ suffered because of it, with him suffering the most after they were caught in the lie.

        Forgive me, but I took pleasure seeing that photo of him returning to jail with the woman carrying his little plastic bag of meds. After being caught on tape, I can only imagine that his time in jail waiting on another bond hearing was super miserable and filled with paranoia, being too afraid to talk on the phone. And, we still don’t know where Shellie went during that time, neither how she was living financially.

      • pat deadder says:

        Rachael As I read about your son I am reminded of my nephew who came to live with my parents at age 16.He was on drugs.
        His parents were both deaf and his father was molesting his daughters which is a whole other story.Anyway my parents had so much faith in him and did everything humanly possible to help him as did I my son was disgusted with him. so.He seemed to respond somewhat except for marijuana.
        I smoke and am trying to quit so if drugs are as hard to quit as smoking I understand.
        My parents have since passed but during this time my 40 year old brother was diagnosed with terminal cancer and my nephew forged a cheque on their account at that time.
        We all got together and told him to move out Mom and Dad had enough to deal with.That was 26 years ago.We don’t see him now but he came to my Mom;s funeral in 2005 but when Dad passed my brothers asked him not to come.I phoned him to tell him his Mother,my sister has cancer he didn’t even call her.
        As far as blowing your brains out I too on many occasions if I had a gun would be gone by now.Another reason guns are scary.
        My Mother used to say This too shall pass so I repeat this often to myself.
        I thank God everyday now I had no gun because I am truly blessed.After reading your blog I think about you often and wish I had a way to help.Mr. Leatherman could give you my email maybe and you could come and visit me just to get away.Must say I don’t go into my emails much but I will.

  50. Malisha says:

    I appreciate Tzar’s ability to express complex issues beautifully.

    I also hate, I am also full of rage, and I also think it defines me in that it gives me the ability to draw my own lines. Whereas I feel free to hate people, I do not feel free to kill them. Whereas I respect my feelings of hatred, I do not believe myself entitled to hurt people except to the extent that they believe themselves “hurt” by their inability to control my attitudes and my free expression of my attitudes.

    I refuse to define myself by racist bigots. Thus, I will not say, “because they hate, I will not hate, so as not to be as bad as they are.” They are not immune to my hatred and contempt simply because they view their own hatred and contempt (of innocent people) as “right” and my objections to it “wrong.” It would be like saying, “Racist bigots eat food so I must not eat food.” I do what my character and person need for my own survival and emotional life.

    Now, I recognize that for Fogen to nourish his pathetic inadequate inner baby, he must feed on his hatred and even lie, cheat and steal in order to kill and have “no regrets.” To me, that does not excuse his attitudes or his conduct. He might undergo psychic death if he were to admit how low, debased, and worthless he is; that would not change my view of him from “abuser” to “victim.”

    The fact that his whole family (of origin AND by marriage) went around whining “victim victim martyr victim boo hoo” for close to two years while he stood there with a smirk and a grin after committing unprovoked murder only causes me to point to the obvious fact that in many cases, dysfunctional families produce monsters.

    Symbolically I spit on Fogen and his whole tribe. May they be erased from memory, “reality TV personas” and all.

    • Shari says:

      You said what I was feeling. I will continue to lurk. Thanks Malisha.

    • Judy75201 says:

      I like being in the company of those who take the high road, because, oddly enough, I feel better about not. I don’t what to symbolically spit on the pig & his family. I want to do it outright, in person, in real time & space. Literally.

    • colin black says:

      There are millions of foggage types out there though we know this for a fact.

      Not all of them get out an blatantly shoot a child out of there inner ineptitude as a human being .

      The type who can back hand there wife across the room bust up her lip an even rattle her teeth if she talks back.

      Or doesn’t answer a question fast benough .
      Or does but gives an answer unsatisfactory to her ears.

      The world is lousy with creeps like this Isnt It?

      Child abuser both sexually an violence going on right now right this instant.

      People whom names we will never hear victims we will never know.

      Battered women raped WOMEN

      Fuck battered BABYS RAPED AN MUEDRED BABYS .

      All these sick fucks abound in life

      People so self cenred so lacking in EMPATHY they see all in life be it people be it tjhjere possession every thing just lais out as a bouffet for there wants needs an desires.

      People that would actuall make foggage look like a choir boy in the depravity they carry not in there soul but in there emptiness a black well of emptiness people that are so full of hate an rage they are phycic vampires an suck all the Joy out of any room or environment they enter.

      Now an again the fuckers pop up on the radar because of there depravity foggage an trunkmom an other sick fucks to bountyfull to mention .

      An as I say for every one we hear about theres another thousands upon thousands of wife child abusers we don’t I cant consentrate hate like a scalpel an use it to slaughter an disseminate a no mark like foggage whats the point

      I have no hate Honestl I don’t an if I did foggage wouldn’t be worthy of it that’s for dam tooting sure .

      Trayvon an his Family an his special Gal Rachel are worthy of my love .

      Foggage isn’t worthy of using an image of him on a tilet roll to wipe my but

      Or I wouldn’t piss on him if he was on fire the creatures an nonentity.

      An just as I cant sharpen my hate sharp enough to direct it in one person or one particular raceist buthole.

      Its also no where near enough a broad sword of Hate to swing an direct at all abusers in the World cant hate one without hateing them all right .

      An I certainly don’t have the energy hateing every inadiquit deranged person on the planet so I choose to hate none of them.

      Believe me there so many more people closer to hope to expel hate on if I wished to but I don’t an wont as its pointless.

      To hate some hing is to give it power over you .

      Negativity even externalise negativity directed at things or people you despise has to be with in you for you to expel it out ward.

      Therefore its harmfull to the host an freaks like foggage et all don’t even registar or get it as to them we are all just scenery.

      So why wast?e your time hateing something that doesn’t even no you exsist

  51. Drew says:

    She’s still protecting him. She knows he was barely even scratched up yet continues to peddle the lie that he acted in self-defense. She’s probably afraid / reluctant to be truthful, for a variety of reasons. On the other hand, she is a blatant liar because, with respect to the “lesser” Martins, she doesn’t feel that she needs to be truthful, mainly due to the fact that she is a racist and beneficiary of white privilege.

  52. Xena says:

    @Professor. Thank you for expressing your heart.

    Finally, I still believe that she is a minor character in this tragedy.

    I’m in a wait-to-see stance about that. Shellie knows why GZ continued going to Kokopelli’s Gym although according to Adam Pollock, he was not learning anything. She knows what happened that caused her to leave George on 2/25/12, but also what caused her to live with him at the Osterman’s. Shellie knows why she chose to put knuckle bandages on George’s nose and head when the physician’s assistant did not apply any bandages.

    Shellie also knows why she chose to purchase a gun and allow George to carry it.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      The verdict declaring gz not guilty has allowed the boil of racism and its effects on its victims to continue to fester in our society.

      The enablers who were close to gz allowed gz to continue his downward spiral that ultimately led to his heinous act on the night of February 26, 2013.

      Unfortunately those enablers continued to support gz and chose not to reveal the real person that they knew gz to be.

      Shellie so far has offered no proof of a turnaround other than what has come about from circumstances unfolding in her and gz’s break-up drama.

      • Xena says:

        @Yahtc.

        Shellie so far has offered no proof of a turnaround other than what has come about from circumstances unfolding in her and gz’s break-up drama.

        Let’s not forget that she entered a plea deal on the perjury charge.

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:

          Thanks…..you are right.

        • crazy1946 says:

          Xena, Could one wonder how much “change” we would have seen in Mrs. George Zimmerman, had it not been forced upon her via a “plea bargain” that allowed her for all practical purposes to escape prison? I know my opinion is not popular, however because I don’t think we would have been seeing all this “new and improved” version of her had it not been forced out by the court…. You can lead a horse to water, you may force this horse to drink, however that same horse will probably pee on you when you turn your back…

          • Rachael says:

            I also wonder how much “change” we would have seen had she not been unceremoniously dumped.

            However, I also have a slightly different view. For example with drug addiction, people say rehab will only work if it is what the person wants. Who goes into drug and alcohol rehab because they want to? There might be some, but it is my opinion that the majority are not there because they “want” to be there – they are “forced” to be there because they will lose their jobs or family – or end up in jail if they don’t go. They flat out do not want to be there, but they don’t want to lose their job, they don’t want their wife/husband to leave them, they don’t want a fine or prison sentence worse. Do all the people who end up in rehab end up changing? No. But for some who are “forced,” once forced to be sober and learn about how they got there, some do change.

            I took my son kicking and screaming to inpatient rehab and believe me, he did NOT want to be there. In fact, a week into it, he assured me that his having to be there only made him angry and he would use even worse when he got out. But something happened to him while being “forced” into taking and action. About three weeks in he told me about an adolescent halfway house he wanted to go to in order to continue his recovery rather than come home where he would be faced temptations that were still there. He said he didn’t feel strong enough and that his sobriety meant everything to him. Now you’ve got to understand, he was a drug addict, a neighborhood dealer, as well as a liar and a thief in order to maintain that. I looked at him like he was nuts and asked him why he was saying that. I asked him if he was saying that because he thought that was what he was supposed to say (all the while thinking in the back of my head it is because he owes people money and he’s worried about having the daylights knocked out of him if he comes home). He assured me it was not. I again asked him why his sobriety meant everything to him now. He said because he could think again. I asked if he could really feel the difference, now having been off drugs for a month, and he said yes, he could think and feel again and he would do anything to not jeopardize that.

            Did I believe him? Hell no. After what he had done and all that he put me through in order that he ended up there, why would I believe one word out of his mouth. However, what was the point in me putting him there in the first place if I wasn’t seeking a change for him? And how would it help him if I said he was a liar and a thief and an addict before so why would I believe him now? Did I believe him? Not really. Did I trust him? Not at ALL. But I do know that when he said he wanted to try, I was willing to stand by and be supportive of his attempt. I felt I owed it to him to at least let him try.

            He did quit drugs and based on the life he lived after rehab, I did believe him in his desire for sobriety. The trust took a whole lot longer. In fact, even now I probably have some issues with it. Was it all rainbows and roses? NO!!! But he found something outside of himself and made a life.

            We are not Shellie’s parents and we owe her nothing. I don’t believe her. I don’t trust her. I don’t know if it is an act or not, but that isn’t on me. It is on her. If she says she wants to change, who am I to stop her before she even gets out of the gate?

            Whether it’s true or not, time will tell. Regardless, it isn’t up to me, but I’m not going to stop her from trying.

          • Xena says:

            @Rachael.

            I also wonder how much “change” we would have seen had she not been unceremoniously dumped.

            Kelly Sims and John Guy were no doubt talking about possible plea deals and Shellie had a choice to either accept or go to trial. As her attorney, Sims would have to tell her the possibilities if she went to trial and was found guilty.

            Well, when we think of it, Shellie had no defense witnesses. They were all members of George’s family and unlikely to tell the truth about their role in transferring the money. It would be self-incriminating on their part.

            It might have taken that good dose of reality to stare Shellie in the face and get her to think about her actions and then standup and accept responsibility.

            What I do hope for her, is that she is able to lay out her heart and soul and tell all about the “real George Zimmerman.”

          • crazy1946 says:

            Rachael,
            “If she says she wants to change, who am I to stop her before she even gets out of the gate?”

            I am truly happy that your son was able to overcome the odds and beat back his addictive actions. However he is, as I am sure you are aware the exception to the rule. How many of the people that enter the programs succeed? It has been my observation (from the outside looking in) that it is a very small percentage that do. Now, in regards to Mrs. George Zimmerman, I don’t think that my or even your opinion will change the outcome of this self purported program of rehabilitation. Do I think she would have made at least some small step toward change for the better if she had not been subjected to two thing, first was the actions of her husband in basically abandoning her, and the second was the order of the court to do so…. Will she change for the better, I don’t know, as you admit you don’t. If she does, I will be in line to give her a high five, as I can admit my errors when I am proved wrong…. Until that time, I simply have no trust in her, nor do I actually think she truly want to be free of her husband, however time will tell…

          • Xena says:

            @crazy1946.

            Xena, Could one wonder how much “change” we would have seen in Mrs. George Zimmerman, had it not been forced upon her via a “plea bargain” that allowed her for all practical purposes to escape prison?

            IMHO, I believe she would have filed for divorce even if George had not left on a “victory tour.”

            As I posted to Rachael, we need to put on the hat of Kelly Sims and see how trial would have gone for Shellie. She had no defense witnesses. Everyone involved with her on transferring the money is a member of George’s family. For them to testify would be self-incriminating.

            Then we get to O’Mara who clearly had some part in knowing about the money but not reporting it to the court.

            They all left Shellie standing with her butt naked to the wind.

            Regardless of Shellie’s reasons for filing for divorce, I think she made the right decision to do so, and hope that the case proceeds and she prevails.

          • Rachael says:

            Wow Crazy – I guess we should just do away with rehab programs since most people fail anyway (including my son – I am not ready necessarily to call him a success yet).

            Remind me not to say anything to you if I should decide to go on a diet. I have had some huge successes with weight loss in the past, once even losing 160 pounds through hypnosis, diet and exercise, but it didn’t work. Therefore, if I go on a diet again, i won’t tell anyone in case I fail again – but if I tell everyone, I might get their support – or they might just say no point, you have failed all the other times.

            I had written a long response to you – actually twice, but gave up. I’m too depressed right now.

            How does one look at this? No one deserves support, we should all just shut up and do whatever because whatever and if it works fine, and if not, it wouldn’t have anyway?

            Everyone deserves support so they should say something and get it?

            No one deserves support but they should still speak up?

            Sometimes I just want to take GZ’s gun and put a bullet through my own head. Life would be so much easier.

          • crazy1946 says:

            Rachael, Because I can’t seem to explain my position to you in a way that you don’t find offensive, I will stop trying and simply say, I am sorry for offending you with my non support for her at this point…. I just find it impossible to be a cheer leader for her… I guess that is a weakness on my part…

          • Rachael says:

            omg I guess I can’t explain my position to you either because I ceatainly am not nor advocating fo myself or anyone else to be a “cheerleader” for her. my god! where do you get that idea?

  53. Rachael says:

    And speaking of abused women, I just now ran into this article on my FB page:

    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/266657.php

    I know that GZ had a dog or two – I also know there was an incident between his ex and her dog. We don’t really know what went on behind closed doors, but it is, at least to me, obvious that he was abusive on some level. Would a fear like this be reasonable? Who knows, but the fact is, it happens. That I know for a fact. Who knows what trauma anyone may have gone through by living with GZ. Well, we know what a cousin said. Shellie herself acknowledged she has a credibility problem. I don’t know what is what with her, but I do know that it is very hard to seek help when you are labeled a credibility problem and no one takes you seriously.

    • colin black says:

      His reason for gun purchase was to shoot an kill a dog.

      He alleges he had relations with a dog in some way or another an alleged feice dog BIG boy ?

      Didn’t quite get his deal an threatened him with teeth an a HOWL OF

      Yoooogrrrrrarghghpromplemhhommmmegh

      So being the law abide chap he imeadiatly reported Big Boy to the LE Non emergency I I R C

      He alleges a few days after the incident as he was returning from mentoring some Black kids in a rough neighbourhood

      He spoke to an officer about hid DOG problem an that he was going to buy some mace for protection.

      The officer convinced him to nix that idea explaining mace and or pepper spray only pisses thease fierce dogs off an makes them more prone to attacking you especialy big Blahck dogs

      An that hollow points straight to the heart was the only way for he an his tenderly treated wife to protect themselves from fierce Blach Dogs.

      • bettykath says:

        He wasn’t specific in who he talked to about the dog but I suspect it was his buddy Osterman, the one who set him up and trained him in the use of his gun.

        • towerflower says:

          I agree bettykath, I was a witness to a pit bull attempted attack. 4 dogs on a 9 yr old on a bike. When the cops finally arrived–quickly after reports of a gun shot—they almost arrested the father of the girl for firing a gun into the ground to scatter the pack. They told us the only legal thing to use was mace and carry a bat–which I did when I went out for walks as the owner of the dogs was not a responsible owner and his pits got out on a regular basis. At no time was it ever mentioned….get a concealed and carry a gun.

  54. Rachael says:

    I think part of the difficulty in a discussion like this is that people don’t always realize that there is a difference between feelings and emotions and often thing of them as the same. Unless you really know and understand the difference, trying to discuss emotions with someone who thinks the discussion is about feelings and vice versa can get really confusing.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      True true. And for some the distinction between calling someone out for their actions and hatred is confusing. Definitely better to condemn the action and not the actor.

      • dee truth says:

        Don’t hate the player; hate the game.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          Yes.

          “If outer foes are destroyed while not subduing the enemy of one’s own hatred, enemies will only increase. Therefore, subduing one’s own mind with the army of love and compassion is the Bodhisattvas’ practice.”

          from “The Thirty-Seven Bodhisattva Practices” by Ngulchu Thogme Zangpa

    • Judy75201 says:

      I’m not sure I do understand the difference between feelings and emotions.

      • Rachael says:

        Feelings are not right or wrong, they are just feelings. Emotions are what you do with your feelings.

        See if this helps:

        • Judy75201 says:

          LOL, “I feel, therefore I emote.” Sorry, but I find this absurd.

          • Rachael says:

            Yeah she was a little over the top but again its like feelings are just feelings do not good not bad just feelings you’re not wrong they’re not right it just feelings. It’s what you do with those feelings and emotions its how you react upon those feelings the emotions that you need to control you can’t control your feelings but you can control your emotions

          • Judy75201 says:

            Thanks, Rachael, I’ll give this thought.

          • Rachael says:

            Whoa – that was written via voice wreck (the voice *wreck*ognition) on my cell phone. Anyway what it was supposed to say, though hopefully you got the gist of it, is feelings are just feelings. There is no judgment attached to them. They are not right or wrong, good or bad. They are just feelings. The emotion is how you act upon these feelings. You have control over your emotions.

            Feelings are more like thoughts. The average person has 70,000 thoughts every day, and many of those thoughts trigger a corresponding emotion. Often we allow those emotions to come out and controlled us rather than us controlling them.

            Nothing wrong with having thoughts and feelings – it is what you do with them that can be a problem.

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