Open Thread Discussion

Friday, August 30, 2013

Good afternoon.

We posted an article a few minutes ago to start a discussion regarding what a person should do, if they are involved in an abusive relationship.

This thread is for discussion and comment regarding other matters.

One possible subject was just raised by Secretary of State, John Kerry, who asked the American public to review newly unclassified documents about the Syrian government’s alleged use of chemical weapons to kill and subdue its own people. What should our government do about it, he asks.

Another possible topic is the article by investigative journalist Christi O’Connor who posted an article titled, ANOTHER TRAYVON ATTACK IN SANFORD, FLORIDA?

What’s on your mind today?

106 Responses to Open Thread Discussion

    • MDH says:

      What is more disturbing are the comments made after the article.

      • Rob_UK says:

        Right-wingers are sick hateful bloodthirsty creatures. Henkel will probably get off too, just like his hero Zimmerman. “Stand Your Ground” is really “Put N****** In The Ground”.

        • MDH says:

          I am glad to be home. My Black American neighbor and his Senegalese wife brought their daughter to the bus stop for her first day of Kindergarten. I was there with both of my daughters by my Senegalese wife.

          IMO, the only things in life that matter are good loving, good food, fine music and, last but not least, the laughter of children.

  1. ay2z says:

    Juror 37, the more guns the better, the safer we well be,, saer we will feel (paraphrasing, would like to rehear what she said at voir dire)

    Supprting B37’s stand, a couple examples from this monring’s news.

    What his lawyers say to support the gun owner’s right to stand his ground after hearing threats from his neighbors when he was inside his house, he went outside, crossed the street and killed two of them, and put 11 bullets in a third who survivded.

    *a second story in the news in Florida, is 3 female students waiting for a bus with their three MacBook Air laptops in view, were approached (they said) by a gunman who forced them to give up their computers. Need more guns, maybe the school should provide a gun and loaded clip with each laptop they provide so the students can stand their own ground,

    B37 would like to have the girls armed for sure, they’d be safer, the more the better for everone, was her thinking, wasn’t it?

    By Dan Billow
    Neighbor who went on shooting rampage uses ‘stand your ground’ defense
    Billy Woodward says he felt threatened by neighbors in Titusville

    UPDATED 5:51 PM EDT Aug 29, 2013

    “He picked his ground to stand and to defend his family, and that turned out to be his neighbor’s property. We don’t believe that he had any duty to wait and actually place his family at risk,” said Eisenmenger.

    • Xena says:

      Pitiful. There is no respect for human life anymore. People in Florida are killing for any little reason and claiming SYG. If Billy Woodward cannot show that he was under threat of great bodily harm or immient death, what then? Will he be convicted, or will his neighbors be painted as folks who deserved death because they “tormented” Billy in order to acquit him?

      • I fear that we are going to see a lot more of these types of incidents committed by veterans suffering from untreated PTSD. Racial prejudice, paranoia, easy access to guns and a widespread belief, encouraged by Zimmerman’s acquittal, that a person can provoke a confrontation, kill someone or a group of people and get away with it by claiming that they thought they saw a gun or a knife and merely stood their ground and defended themselves, even if that ground happened to be on the victim’s property.

        Everyone who participated in that show trial to set a murderer free bears a responsibility for the subsequent terror that, in no small part, it helped to unleash.

        • Xena says:


          Everyone who participated in that show trial to set a murderer free bears a responsibility for the subsequent terror that, in no small part, it helped to unleash.

          Absolutely. Just to think, Juror B37 told the nation that if you have good intentions when killing, then it’s not murder. Maddy, Juror B29, told the nation that there is no law for murder if you can’t prove intent/premediation.

          We might as well get rid of legislatures and jury instructions.

          • ay2z says:

            Xena and Prof, I found a copy f B37’s voir dire questioning, and not only did she use the term riots at the beginning, she heard that but never watched, listened nor gave any credibility to media whatsoever, but she knew it was ‘riots’. Later, she remarked about the quote “rioting’.

            But what was notable, was that after her ‘riots’ description, she knew th was what happened, she sounded quite sure but apparently wasn’t personally there, Bernie turned the word ‘riot’ into another more begnign term, but never questioned her about why or what cuased her to say it was ‘riots’. Someone may have told her that and she believed it.

            She also decided as per her voir dire, that this was an incident that went terribly wrong. Again, she never paid attention to media and even so, thta’s not what she would believe because they are mostly wrong.

            But she knew these things, rioting and just something that went wrong, oh, and of curse, it happened late at night.

            There was no opportunity for her to learn that there was no rioting, no looking, no anarchy, no destruction of property, no violence. befpre troa;/

            I”ve copied the audio, and will put it together when I can. She predicted exactly the same thing she said on the media cameras after trial about what happened. No need for trial with her on board.

          • ay2z says:

            Wow, I’m really confused about my memory of the trial. Anderson Cooper asked B37 what witness stood out tp jer. Help me clear this up please– B37 said the doctor for the defense, he was most awsome because of his military experience and how he could identify Zimmerman’s voice. Cooper asked if this was the friend of gz’s, and she said the doctor for the derense.

            ???? He was the best witness for her, she was awe struck.

            It’s in the first minutes.

          • I believe she is referring to Donnelly, the man who operated a business with his wife close to the office where GZ was selling insurance. The became good friends. He and his wife contributed money to GZ’s defense. Donnelly also bought the suits and ties that Gz wore to court.

            Donnelly said he was a medic in Vietnam and he got to know the screams of the men in his platoon when they were injured in combat. Said he got so good at it that he could accurately identify the person screaming without seeing them.

            Claimed that this experience made him an expert in identifying someone he knew by their scream. He said he was absolutely 100% certain that GZ was the person screaming in the background of the 911 call.

            Donnelly is also the witness who violated the sequestration rule by being present in the courtroom listening to the witnesses testify before he was called to the stand.

            The prosecution’s motion to bar him from testifying was denied.

            He was not a medical doctor.

            I did not believe him and I also don’t believe his anecdotal combat experience 40 years ago qualified him to testify as an expert in scream identification. His strong bias in favor of GZ and desire to see him acquitted caused me to conclude that he was not a reliable witness.

            Slight possibility that B37 instead may have been referring to Dr. Vincent DiMaio, the forensic pathologist and former Medical Examiner for Bexar County, TX (San Antonio).

          • ay2z says:

            again, sorry for typos, please make assumptions! 😉

          • ay2z says:

            Thanks, Prof. That’s what I thought, it wasn’t the medical expert as she implied, not a ‘doctor’ as she stated, the medic. She gave him credibility as an expert, as a medical doctor.

            These people fit what they needed into their version, like the 2 minutes, proof that nothing happened was when Trayvon’s call dropped. Proof that nothing happened to GZ where he said, but she used it as proof that GZ had nothing happening either, until the call dropped.

            So where does she think he spent a full two minutes walking the depth of a townhome plus a bit, to his ca.

            This woman is stupid, and she got her stories set in her mind before trial, and her husband made sure she was clear of any blokades to her service, including doing al the work for numerous cats and dogs, and parrott and crow, and lizards, and making sure he taped her Today show so she wouldn’t miss a single episode for when she got home again.


          • MDH says:


            Believing Donnelly also discounts the only testimony allowed by a real audio expert – Mao. He claimed that only one with a family relationship to the screamer could possibly do an ID. He also claimed that the scream was by someone in imminent danger of losing their life.

            In IP law, we are trained to diminish any testimony by an interested party. Donnelly’s testimony was clearly one of an interested party, given the substantial personal relationship he had with George.

            If I was a juror what Mao said about imminent fear of death along with sound (pun intended) evidence { blood and audio }that George never had Trayvon pressing his hand over his mouth and nose during the final seconds before the shot to make a finding of fact that it was probably Trayvon screaming in terror as he knew his life was about to end.

            This case is so simple.

            The forensic evidence sans George’s many stories proves beyond a reasonable doubt that George did not have any life threatening wounds and that he killed Trayvon.

            The forensics evidence compared to George’s own words proves beyond a reasonable doubt that he is a liar.

            The only was to accept reasonable doubt via self-defense is to accept a proven lairs credibility. The proven liar needing his story accepted in order to prevent decades spent in prison.

            IOW, George is both a liar and an interested party.

            The jurors went above and beyond the call of willful blindness. IMO, they took as fact testimony by people who I think were also liars.

          • Two sides to a story says:

            The jury heard only what they wanted to hear. Had they really listened to the prosecution witnesses and had the prosecution really hammered their point home, the jury would have deliberated far longer than 16 hours and probably would have come back hung or nailed Fogen for his actions.

          • Xena says:

            @Two sides.

            Had they really listened to the prosecution witnesses and had the prosecution really hammered their point home, the jury would have deliberated far longer than 16 hours and probably would have come back hung or nailed Fogen for his actions.

            You make a good point. They went into deliberations at 50/50; 3 wanting not guilty, 2 for manslaughter and 1 for 2nd degree murder. Strange that 3 would convince 2 others to vote not guilty, and by the jury foreperson not providing a specific question to clarify manslaughter, waited Maddy out for a not guilty vote.

            I get the impression that had the foreperson presented the question, the answer would have convinced the original 2 wanting guilty of manslaughter to change their vote back to manslaughter.

            According to Maddy, it rested on “intent” and according to B37, “George” had good intentions. Effectively, by the foreperson not following up on that question, she left Maddy standing alone.

  2. MDH says:

    What do you mean no?

    I mean no no no.

    Really hate the running really hate the game
    Looking at them all I wanna be unborn again
    Their suit is getting tighter although they’re getting thin
    The flies are crawling on their face and trying to get in
    People say that we’re to blame I say
    No no no it’s just the game
    Must we let them fool us no no no
    Have we got our freedom no no no
    Is it getting better no no no
    Do we love each other no no no
    Must we wait forever no no no

    Heads are getting stronger bodies getting weak
    Looking at them all it feels good to be a freak
    Their hands are getting closer they’re reaching out so far
    The greenies gonna get them make them serve stars
    Tell them how it is and they say
    No no no we know it all
    The washing’s getting dirty the air is getting thin
    It’s all in such a mess that no one knows where to begin
    They talk about creating but all they do is kill
    They say we’re gonna mend it but they never will
    Poison in the rain but they say
    No no no we ain’t to blame

    • No, no, no, no, no, no, no –
      Oh mama mia, mama mia, mama mia let me go

      • Deborah Moore says:

        Here’s another no, no, no, no, no. Since it’s Saturday morning, here’s a cartoon…(sorry, there’s a short ad.)

        • Deborah Moore says:

          One more no no no no from me, and then I’ll go do something productive. (I don’t know why I get caught up in this kind of thing, but I do.)

      • MDH says:

        My brother an I got in a discussion about great rock singers. When he brought up Freddy Mercury, I replied this must be a discussion about the greatest singers regardless of genre.

        • Deborah Moore says:

          Hey, we all deal with how we choose to have a conversation.
          That might have given a moment of pause to happen.
          But, Hey.

  3. Deborah Moore says:

    I love this video she made with Aaron Neville.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      She had a good run – check out her Wikipedia entry. She did an amazing amount of work and won a slew of awards. I knew she was good and that she’d been versatile, but I had no idea that she was the top female performer of her time and perhaps all time. What a lady.

    • Unbelievable. They both sing like birds, this duet is gorgeous.

      • Deborah Moore says:

        Good Morning, Crane-Station! It is purty, isn’t it? A girl could get such a crush on him in that video. Righty-O?

  4. Linda Ronstadt announced this week that Parkinson’s Disease has stolen her voice.

    Here she is in better days.

    What a voice!

  5. Caution: sweet sad and hot

  6. Elizabeth says:

    All war is a lie!
    Please no war.

  7. Judy75201 says:

    I don’t think their’s any question that Elkins pulled the trigger. The only question seems to be, were the parents complicit. After the testimony of the clergy-person, I’m thinking no.

  8. aussie says:

    I don’t believe these de-classfied documents.

    They claim the assessment is based on all sorts of various sources, none of which are listed and that is just for the DAMAGE.

    For who caused it? they have speculation, along lines of the government is more known to have such weapons than someone else.

    And the fact that this is RELEASED??? just trying to horrify people t6o make them accept some kind of US intervention. Sort of like the WMD thing in Iraq except this time they are giving so-called “proof” up front.

    Forget Vietnam, things were different then. But Fallujah was very recently. So, is this going to be the typical LE reaction? “law enforcement can get away with murder but still enforce against others the laws they themselves keep breaking”?

    Many more are being killed by more conventional weapons. How come that doesn’t matter? but suddenly a few hundred die from (alleged) illegal weapons, suddenly the World’s Police has to stick their noses into it?

    In every single “police” action taken by the US in the past 50 years, the deaths and destruction from those actions have vastly exceeded what they were supposed to be stopping.

    Get real and stay out of it, America. Put your own house ion order first.

    • bettykath says:

      I agree. Given the plan from the Pentagon that came from PNAC, things are going according to plan. The countries are being attacked a bit out of order, but Syria is on the list.

      From a Wesley Clark interview by Democracy Now:

      GEN. WESLEY CLARK: I knew why, because I had been through the Pentagon right after 9/11. About ten days after 9/11, I went through the Pentagon and I saw Secretary Rumsfeld and Deputy Secretary Wolfowitz. I went downstairs just to say hello to some of the people on the Joint Staff who used to work for me, and one of the generals called me in. He said, “Sir, you’ve got to come in and talk to me a second.” I said, “Well, you’re too busy.” He said, “No, no.” He says, “We’ve made the decision we’re going to war with Iraq.” This was on or about the 20th of September. I said, “We’re going to war with Iraq? Why?” He said, “I don’t know.” He said, “I guess they don’t know what else to do.” So I said, “Well, did they find some information connecting Saddam to al-Qaeda?” He said, “No, no.” He says, “There’s nothing new that way. They just made the decision to go to war with Iraq.” He said, “I guess it’s like we don’t know what to do about terrorists, but we’ve got a good military and we can take down governments.” And he said, “I guess if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem has to look like a nail.”

      So I came back to see him a few weeks later, and by that time we were bombing in Afghanistan. I said, “Are we still going to war with Iraq?” And he said, “Oh, it’s worse than that.” He reached over on his desk. He picked up a piece of paper. And he said, “I just got this down from upstairs” — meaning the Secretary of Defense’s office — “today.” And he said, “This is a memo that describes how we’re going to take out seven countries in five years, starting with IRAQ, and then SYRIA, LEBANON, LIBYA, SOMALIA, SUDAN and, finishing off, IRAN.” I said, “Is it classified?” He said, “Yes, sir.” I said, “Well, don’t show it to me.” And I saw him a year or so ago, and I said, “You remember that?” He said, “Sir, I didn’t show you that memo! I didn’t show it to you!” [emphasis added]

      • bettykath says:

        Obama is in his second term. He just completed an education pr trip to parts of the country that he normally doesn’t go to. He has nothing to lose in continuing the PNAC plan.

        Andrea Mitchell reported that we have to “teach” them a lesson. Right! The people who will actually pay are those who have been embroiled as victims in the civil war.

  9. kenteoth says:

    There was a horrible tragedy in Phoenix….a 3 month old baby locked in a hot car died the other day because the father was allegedly inside the place where he supposedly worked was getting high and forgot about the baby and by the time he remembered it was too late. He was arrested and booked on manslaughter and child abuse charges…..very heartbreaking

    • How does someone forget leaving a baby unattended in a car . . . anywhere for any reason.

      That’s basic.

    • boyd says:

      I find that hard to believe Phoenix is too hot this time of the year. its like 110-120 during the day?

    • Girlp says:

      I don’t understand how this happens and it happens every summer. I always took my baby with I did not leave him in the car, if I needed a break my mom babysat while I went to the movies or got my hair done.

    • Jasmine says:

      And he was standing right outside the car for a time so I have no idea how he could have forgotten the child in the car. Idiot. I really hate when people do this. It happens several times every year.

  10. Boyd says:

    Christi better watch out she’ll disappear down there. any remember that girl who went on the people’s court. next day vanished.

  11. MDH says:

    It’s Friday and sometimes when there is a lot that upsets me, I listen to any one of the great works produced by the Upsetter – Lee Perry.

    This one takes sad thought and melts them away.

  12. Boyd says:

    Bomb the hell out of them. France knows the region we don’t need the Brits. ignore the Russians and Chinese.

    But no troops on the ground , special forces advisors are acceptable.

    There’s no such thing as Just add water instant democracy. I’ve been waiting 30 years for these kings and strongmen to be eliminated.

    • Doesn’t our government’s hypocrisy regarding the use of chemical weapons in Vietnam and Fallujah complicate your choice?

      Whom do we bomb and where do we bomb them?

      How do we avoid civilian casualties?

      If al Assad’s government falls, what replaces it?

      • MDH says:

        I have read that cluster bombs impale victims with many fine metal shards that are hard to extract from flesh and cause constant pain.

      • boyd says:

        I hate bullies yeah I get what your saying. I can’t say anything else.I just hate bullies.

        • boyd says:

          we are hypocrites for sure but that’s not my fault. For instance I would not be friends with Communist Chna. I don’t get it

          A few years ago I had to work overseas for 1 month and two guys I worked with were Serbians. They gave me a hard time becuase ‘we’ bombed their country. But one of them later told me It was a good thing we did.

      • boyd says:

        When Assads government fails. I do not know, it’s in their hands.

        They’ll have a chance to create a democracy that’s better than ours, learn from our mistakes, theyll have 200 years of our history to work with. . Or They can blow it like Egypt’s trying to do.

        • The people of Egypt aren’t trying to blow it. The military has never really relinquished control and given democracy a chance to work. Now they have taken over the government completely and jailed the elected president and the leaders of his political party and their families.

          Our government seems much less concerned about what the military is doing in Egypt (slaughtering its own people) than what the military is doing in Syria. Of course, Egypt’s military respects Israel’s sovereignty whereas al Assad’s government and military do not.

          I suspect that distinction informs us a lot about what’s really going on behind the scenes.

    • aussie says:

      “bomb the hell out of them” ????

      what the hell business of the US is it? what the hell right do they have to bomb ANYBODY? what the hell is WRONG WITH PEOPLE that they think it’s ok to go around bombing strangers? what the hell have they ever done to you?

  13. Xena says:

    18 yr old Elkins has just been convicted on all counts for killing the infant in the stroller. The jury deliberated for about an hour.

    • Woow! says:

      But the parents killed that baby…how did this happen?

      • Danita says:

        Well not quite the mother of the shooter took the gun and threw it into a pond and proceeded to put together an alibi for her son. The defense tried to roll a story of gun powder residue on her hands but I dont think that was the full truth.Im sorry this case was horrible and I believe he did the crime.The mother is also being charged and they both look a bit on the slow side, there has to be some kinda of issue to think shooting a small baby between the eyes is ok. Soooo sad.just sayin……

    • ks says:

      Whow, there seemed to be enough reasonable doubt in that case to drive a truck through it. The justice system strikes again.

    • ladystclaire says:

      @Xena, they sure didn’t waste no time bringing this case to trial did they?

      • Xena says:

        @ladystclaire. You are so right. It seemed like yesterday when the shootings took place. It was a fast deliberation too. I have to see if I can find videos of the entire trial.

  14. A new video about that trifling lying bitch B-37:

    Was Juror B 37 Planted in The George Zimmerman Trial

    • willisnewton says:

      Thanks. I had not seen this. What a sad excuse for a jury, and the state’s prosecutors who should have seen this coming and worked harder to prevent it from going down like this.

      • bettykath says:

        I seriously believe the fix was in and emanated from the governor’s office w/ the DA and the lead ADA in on it. This juror was a guarantee that a guilty verdict wasn’t possible.

        • pat deadder says:

          bettykath I’m with you the fix was in from top down.Those judges and all have to make sure they get elected again by their racist constituents.
          To hell with justice just keep their jobs.
          God forbid he murders someone else.Wonder who will be held accountable then.

  15. bettykath says:

    Hypocrisy in action.

    Secretary of State Kerry said, ” [T]oday, I want to provide an update on our efforts as we consider our response to the use of chemical weapons. ….[that]……. should shock the conscience of the world. It defies any code of morality. Let me be clear: The indiscriminate slaughter of civilians, the killing of women and children and innocent bystanders by chemical weapons is a moral obscenity. By any standard, it is inexcusable and — despite the excuses and equivocations that some have manufactured — it is undeniable.

    He’s so right when you also reference a recent official disclosure:


    The U.S. government has now admitted its troops used white phosphorus as an incendiary weapon against Iraqis during the assault on Fallujah a year ago. Chemical weapons experts say such attacks are in violation of international law banning the use of chemical weapons. We speak with columnist George Monbiot and the news director of RAI TV, the Italian TV network that produced the film “Fallujah: The Hidden Massacre.” [includes rush transcript]

    The U.S. government has now admitted its troops used white phosphorus as an incendiary weapon against Iraqis during the assault on Fallujah a year ago.

    Chemical weapons experts say such attacks are in violation of international law banning the use of chemical weapons.

    Peter Kaiser, of the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, said, “Chemicals used against humans or animals that cause harm or death through the toxic properties of the chemical are considered chemical weapons.”

    White phosphorus is often compared to napalm because it combusts spontaneously when exposed to oxygen and can burn right through skin to the bone.

    And then there is the napalm that was used in Viet Nam and the DU in our weapons and the drone strikes. And that it was US based companies, those in which at least 2 former vice presidents and various other administration officials had substantial stakes that provide the chemical weapons.

    • lurker says:

      Interesting article. Suggests yet again that the primary interest of the US and other industrialized nations is to maintain a level of stability so that the flow of oil is uninterrupted. Beyond that, there are factors beyond control–weather and drought–feeding discontent, which breeds factionalism, etc.

  16. The unclassified chemical weapons report is here:

    annnd Sec. John Kerry’s speech is here:

    • kllypyn says:

      those other middle eastern countries ought to handle it the US can’t get involved every time something happens over there we’ve got problems here that need to be handled.

      • Seems like another Vietnam-like slippery slope. The last thing we need is another new war.

      • Woow! says:

        So true. They want us to intervene and when we do they scream for us to get out. We will never learn.

      • Jasmine says:

        I am trying to figure out the same thing. All those other Muslims countries around them but the US should intervene…..that makes no sense whatsoever. Then they will be screaming for the Americans to get out.

      • pat deadder says:

        kllypyn says Those middle eastern countries ought to handle it the US can’t get involved every time.
        Well I don’t think the US gets involved in anything out of the goodness of their heart and concern for the Syrian people.There has to be something the US wants.Not sure if Syria has oil.
        After the Iraq bullshit I don’t trust any of their reports.
        Has the UN sanctioned this.I know I sound cynical that’s because I am.

  17. Benjamin Crump, Esq. ‏@attorneycrump 1h
    Orlando donors contribute $50k to Trayvon Martin Foundation for scholarship,0,2474211.story … @SybrinaFulton @Itsgabrielleu
    Retweeted by #WeAreTRAYVONMARTIN
    Hide summary Reply Retweeted Favorite More

    • kllypyn says:

      Notice how they are using their grief to help people. While the Zimmermans continue to lie and blame others for their problems.

      • Good point, kllypyn.

      • ladystclaire says:

        I agree with you kllypyn, Trayvon’s family has shown nothing but class, as well as love for their fellow man. I have fallen in love with this fami, as well as with Trayvon.

        How can you not love them, especially after all they have been through and, are still going through. I have befriended two og Sybrina’s brothers, as well as others who support this family and, I feel so embodied by my new found friends. That includes some of you here as well.

    • ay2z says:

      Yes! Just saw the article and swung by to see if it was posted here yet. Crane is yet again on top of things.

      No time to catch up now, take care all! Hope everyone’s weather is as nice as it is here today. Sun after a rainy musty-air night.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Wednesday’s ceremony in Washington leads me to believe 50 years from now the Trayvon Martin Foundation still will be dispensing scholarships to bright young people who will make America a better place to live … while the liar- parade testifying at the Zimmerman cover-up trial will be dead or forgotten.

  18. Judy75201 says:

    I just saw where Kerry is saying almost 1,500 died from chemical warfare, and 1/3 of them were children. I’m speechless.

    • Girlp says:

      The last attack was on a school the children and their teacher were burned with a napalm like agent (it’s reported it may have been napalm).

      • lurker says:

        Hmmm, Napalm, an American product of the Dow Chemical Company, if I’m not mistaken.

        Can someone explain to me the motivation behind the Syrian attacks on their own people? I don’t get what an in-power govt gets from random attacks on civilians. What am I missing?

        • Trained Observer says:

          I’m concerned that the Brits don’t seem to be standing with us — or at least parlimaent isn’t backing the Prime Minister who seems to be aligned with our President, even though decision has been made on how to proceed.

          I am wondering how regular Brits — especially those old enough to remember WWII — are viewing this and what’s being said on the street.

        • bettykath says:

          lurker, Good point. What would be the motive of the government to po the US and bring us in. The ones that benefit are the rebels, Israel, Saudi Arabia, the US……

  19. crazy1946 says:

    Hmm, uno?

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