Open Thread Early Tuesday Morning

Tuesday, August 6, 2013

A very early good morning to all of you.

I was away from my computer all day Monday and not available to write a new post.

I will be back in action tomorrow.


244 Responses to Open Thread Early Tuesday Morning

  1. bettykath says:

    Santa Ana – In some jurisdictions, police solve crimes and try to protect the public. In Santa Ana, California, the fastest-growing hobby for the police is shooting unarmed civilians. On 8/5, residents packed the city hall to demand that police stop shooting people.
    The Santa Ana Police Department has shot at least five unarmed people since the start of the year. The identified victims include Binh Van Nguyen, Jason Erling Hallstrom, Gerardo Diego Ayala, Jessica Gonzalez, and the latest victim, 22-year-old Kevin Arellano, who just recently became a father.

    Genevieve Huizar, the mother of Manuel Angel Diaz, another innocent unarmed victim of a police killing, labeled the killings “Murder by Cop.” This phrase was echoed again and again by speakers throughout the night. She asked “Why are the officers opening fire when they have other options?”

    Former elected Orange Unified School Board Member Steve Rocco went further. He blamed Santa Ana’s top leadership for multiple murders done through the police and covered up by the City.

    Sherry Gyotoku, aunt of police shooting victim Michael Nida, pointed out that the city council doesn’t know what these police shootings of innocent unarmed men do to wives and children. She sees the families grieving all the time.\

    Terri Teramura, also a sister of innocent police shooting victim Michael Nida, said that she had been to two memorial services for innocent people killed by Santa Ana’s police. She pointed out that the cops in Santa Ana are out of control. She and other family members have formed a group called “Justice Warriors” and would be going to to the state capitol in October.

    Jean Thaxton, the mother who raised Michael Nida, discussed the lies the police and news media tell about the victims to excuse the killings. Indeed, if you look at the video below, you can see the accusations they are using to excuse the unnecessary killing of an unarmed Kevin Arellano.

    Kandice Herrera, a friend of police shooting victim Kevin Arellano, said, “Enough is enough.” He spoke on behalf of Kevin’s family, who were still grieving their loss.

    Others came forward and courageously spoke, knowing that there could be retaliation from the police patrolling their neighborhoods with guns. The council was asked repeatedly to reign in their cops and stop the killings. Some of those present felt the Federal Government should step in and take over to stop the deadly civil rights violations. Many speakers grew up with officers but were shocked at the lawlessness of the current police force. Members of the public spoke fearlessly, articulately and with passion. But did their speeches fall on deaf ears?

    The Santa Ana police are not known for serving and protecting. Special interests call in the police and city inspectors when they want to hassle and control their neighbors and grab their property or freedom. The police have a history of following women in patrol cars and giving no reason for the pursuit when questioned. Crime victims are told by the police to file civil suits when felonies have been committed against them. Children who report violent sexual abuse or aggravated assaults are laughed at or silenced by officers. It was pointed out at the meeting that the one thing residents cannot count on the Santa Ana police to do is to stop violent crimes committed against them. But the innocent and unarmed have considerable reason to be concerned about the possibility they could be shot by the police as evidenced by all the prior incidents of that nature.
    District Attorney Tony Rackauckas doesn’t seem to prosecute violent crimes either. This could be because his office is funded by certain economic interests — unrelated to protecting the interests of the public and he may consider prosecution of violent crimes to be a waste of time. The corruption in the District Attorney’s office was also referenced by speakers at the city council meeting.

    Concerns about Santa Ana corruption are more widespread than just shooting the public. Mark Burcaw reported illegal citations issued by the Santa Ana Police Department for the purpose of illegally seizing property.

    This writer has been informed by other residents about land grab schemes within the city. People who want other people’s property reportedly have city officials misuse their positions to cite the property for bogus violations for the purpose of later condemning and stealing the desired property. The city has been known to turn off the water of residents and then cite them for not having water as part of this seemingly continuous scheme of corruption. The information provided by residents appears to confirm that Mr. Burcaw’s complaints are common place in Santa Ana.
    The repeated killing of unarmed citizens as if Santa Ana is a shooting gallery, the illegal seizure of land and the failure to enforce laws against criminal activities are serious matters that warrant an independent investigation. The federal government might want to take action while some of the residents are still alive and haven’t had their property seized — yet.

    • MichelleO says:

      THIS type of brazen shit happening right in the open really ticks me the phugg off. WAKE UP PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA! Stop pussy-footing around and help save the people of America—and not your friends and benefactors either!

  2. Malisha says:

    India got free from Britain because Britain couldn’t stand the shame any more. Our country does not shame easy. In light of that, I would like to see bumper stickers, signs, T-shirts, and etc. etc. etc. that start imposing shame:

    Shame on George Zimmerman.

    A simple message. A clear one. A necessary one. He “won”? He got free of “the law”? SHAME ON HIM!

    • crazy1946 says:

      Malisha, Would this work?

      “Only in Florida can an Afro-Peruvian Sissy flunk out of MMA school and be considered a Hero”

  3. ladystclaire says:

    I don’t know why the above link is not working but, just go to and, you should be able to find it.

  4. crazy1946 says:

    We have about two weeks until the trial of Shel-lie, has anyone heard any news about it? Will it be allowed to just fade into the sunset? Will this simply be just one more notch on the belt of the Fogdoit, proving that his supporters own the Justice system in Florida? I had hoped we would get behind a movement to ensure that at least this case would receive the attention necessary to make sure that at least an effort would be made to punish this corrupt group of people who flout the court with impunity….. I suppose that is not to be….. Too bad….

    • ladystclaire says:

      This should not be permitted to just go away and, what about the money laundering that they were involved in, will the feds just allow them to get away with that as well? They broke the law when they were moving that money around and, then there is the matter of the hidden passport.

      Why are these people exempt from the very same rule of law, that we all have to abide by or are they allowed skate by and get away with breaking federal laws as well?

    • Xena says:


      We have about two weeks until the trial of Shel-lie, has anyone heard any news about it?

      I think it is a status hearing.

      • crazy1946 says:


        “I think it is a status hearing.”

        I hope that is not a fancy “Florida” legal term that means let the liar off scott free because she is a member of a good racist clan……

        • Xena says:


          I hope that is not a fancy “Florida” legal term that means let the liar off scott free because she is a member of a good racist clan……

          Nah. It’s a fancy term for delaying trial under the guise of conducting discovery and preparing pre-trial motions. We might even see a motion filed to disallow the entry of GZ’s bank records and the jail house calls into evidence because they are prejudicial against the defendant. (snark on)

      • crazy1946 says:

        Xena, Last time I made the journey into town to get supplies, I went by our semi-local food joint (restaurant?) to drink coffee and to visit with the local riffraff. One of them (a Fogdoit supporter no less) made the comment that the Fogdoit was on government disability and they were paying for his medications. That though had never occurred to me, and I’m wondering if it could be possible, explaining how he could afford to not work much, yet pay for medications and such…. Does anyone know if there is a way to find out if he is?

        • Xena says:


          One of them (a Fogdoit supporter no less) made the comment that the Fogdoit was on government disability and they were paying for his medications.

          GZ would possibly qualify for SSI since he has a mental illness. However, he would need to be disabled for at least 2 years to qualify for Medicare. I don’t know what Florida’s law is for qualifying for Medicaid, commonly called a medical card.

          If he applied for SSI last year, he would no doubt be denied and have to appeal. (That’s standard Social Security procedure.) Therefore, if he wasn’t receiving SSI before he killed Trayvon, there’s a good chance that he’s not receiving it now because the government is slower than molasses.

          • crazy1946 says:

            Xena, the comment was made that he had been on disability for quite a while and that is how survived while he did not wish to work. I don’t know if he was/is but with his family and his history, I would not be overly surprised to find out this man was actually correct. Perhaps in time we will know all this useless information (trivia?). Maybe it would make a good reality show “The Life of a Murderer Living (and killing) in Florida! They could have contests to see which of the contestant’s could kill the most minority children each week. The idea for the show should sell quite well amongst the Right Wing Christians in this nation….. I hope that a disclaimer is not necessary on this post….

        • fauxmccoy says:

          @crazy — i cannot tell you any specifics regarding this individual and disability, but as a disabled person on SSDI and medicare, i can share my own experience.

          the state can provide income through their temporary (1 year) disability program. for zimmerman, this one year period has come and gone. the program does not pay for medications, only replaces income at about 2/3 of one’s normal rate of pay, up to a maximum. it is administered much like unemployment but requires a doctor’s signature.

          federal disability (SSDI) is very difficult to be approved in all but the most dire cases. initial claims are routinely rejected, there is a serious back log of cases and it is a very long process of federal medical investigations, exams and hearings before a judge. for me, that process lasted about 4 years during which i received no compensation after the state temporary disability ran out, there is no coverage for medical expenses or medication. (the final insult to injury for me, was the federal hearing before a judge which was held in a basement room, down a long flight of stairs with no elevator — in other words, not handicap accessible. although i am ambulatory, stairs are very difficult. it was a humiliating and debasing process). once approved, however, the recipient does receive monthly compensation equal to what one would earn upon retirement and usually medicare benefits are awarded at or around the same time.

          i would say the chances of this process having occurred would be highly unlikely.

  5. ladystclaire says:

    Good afternoon good people. I found a site this morning that has some interesting reading about that “FARCE” of a trial. It’s titled: Ten Reasons Lawyers Say Florida’s LE Threw Away George Zimmerman’s Case. Go to this site, These People Are Spot On In Their Analysis Of That Farce Of A Trial.

    Every citizen in the state of Florida, with an ounce of common sense and compassion about them, should hang their collective heads in shame at the “INJUSTICE” that was meted out to a 17 year old child and, also for the celebrations put forth by their fellow racist Floridians and, WE THE PEOPLE SHOULD BE A SHAMED OF OUR FELLOW AMERICANS, IN EVERY STATE WHO SEES THIS AS SOMETHING TO CELEBRATE AS WELL.

    A child is dead here and, there is no reason for anybody to be celebrating that. For those who think other wise, may they one day be on the receiving end of the same kind of loss and injustice, as Trayvon and his family. There are some real mean spirited people in this country.

    • Malisha says:

      They celebrate and eat ice cream because they were able to reinforce their white supremacy. It’s about winning and that’s about exploiting and they lack not only conscience but good sense. Everybody rational knows that it is better to have half a pie than a big explosion that destroys lives. While they’re defending their right to somebody else’s half a pie, they’re throwing away the country and every rhetorical (because they were only rhetorical; they were NEVER real) ideal it was based on from the beginning. SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME.

  6. Boyd says:

    if Fogen only had a cell phone I’d describe what he did as following, but Fogen had a loaded gun, so I describe it as hunting.

    looks like there is No law in Florida against Hunting humans, if you tell the cops your prey is suspicious.

    • Xena says:

      @Boyd. GZ conducted a “coon hunt”. Just because he said it under his breath doesn’t mean that we don’t hear it. Also, Juror B37 confirmed that is what GZ did when saying that when GZ “confronted” Trayvon, Trayvon should have ran again.

      The real scary thing is, those jurors reside in Florida and some have guns and CCL’s and even Juror B37 said she once had a CCL, but they don’t understand SYG law. Guess those classes to qualify for a CCL didn’t teach them anything.

      That means that Juror B29’s child can be profiled, followed and shot dead, and as long as the murderer says it was in self-defense, she will keep her mouth shut and not seek justice because she believes the murderer has to have an intent in order to be convicted of murder.

      Somehow, I think she was used to perpetrate an agenda of telling Black parents that when their sons are murdered, to keep their mouths shut.

      • ay2z says:

        Why didn’t the prosecutrion say that GZ is a liar, and next point, GZ says he said ‘punks’ and aske the jury what he really says? What do they hear?

        • Xena says:


          Why didn’t the prosecutrion say that GZ is a liar,

          They did, but it didn’t come from the witness stand. During voir dire, O’Mara instructed Juror B37 to “advise” other jurors that if it didn’t come from the “witness stand” that it couldn’t be considered.

          GZ says he said ‘punks’ and aske the jury what he really says? What do they hear?

          If neither of those 6 women could hear “I’m begging you” at the beginning of Jeanna’s 911 call, they would probably think GZ said “flipping dog paddles” because he may have stepped in dog poo. They made excuses for GZ.

  7. ay2z says:

    What the heck. (from OS)

    Rock, 50, reportedly told cops that the folks who were “complaining on him were just haters because he had a way with the ladies,” according to the report.

    He also stated he would “use the Zimmerman defense because he was streetwise and he knew how to work the system.

  8. colin black says:

    ladystclaire says:

    August 6, 2013 at 10:32 pm

    There is only one “BIG” problem with them wanting their country back and, that is the fact that they are not the rightful owners of this country!
    The original settlers of America were from Siberia about 60 thousand years ago they crossed the Berring Straights.

    Spreading down through Alaska Canada an eventually the entire Americas…

  9. colin black says:

    Looks like an Merican version of combat 18 whom splintered from the national front in the UK .

    The numbers denote letters of the alphabet 1 = A 8= H.

    So the letters 1 an 8 denote the initals of there hero Adolph Hitler

    Crew 41 most likely stands for 4=D 1=A

    An stands for direct action …m o o..

    • fauxmccoy says:

      colin says

      The numbers denote letters of the alphabet 1 = A 8= H.
      So the letters 1 an 8 denote the initals of there hero Adolph Hitler

      sounds like their ‘coding’ ability is on par with their hero, george : /

  10. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    excerpt from article:

    On their Facebook pages, the Moodys say they are members of a white power sect called Crew 41. The organization was new to law enforcement and the Southern Poverty Law Center, which monitors hate groups across the country.

    Crew 41 exists almost entirely online, likely splintered off from another hate group by members disillusioned by a lack of action or some other slight, said law center spokesman Mark Potok.

    “The white supremacist scene is characterized by ever-changing group rivalries and alliances. It is a world filled with accusations and counter accusations with people leaving for bizarre reasons like accusing someone of having a gay boyfriend, or claims that ‘we’re the one true Klan,'” Potok said.

  11. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Good Morning Everyone!

    About this talk:

    Jay Smooth is host of New York’s longest running hip-hop radio show, the Underground Railroad on WBAI 99.5 FM in NY, and is an acclaimed commentator on politics and culture.

    In this talk, he discusses the sometimes thorny territory of how we discuss issues of race and racism, offering insightful and humorous suggestions for expanding our perception of the subject.

  12. Golden Rule says:

    I would like to see more of the “facts” on Wikipedia disputed and more real facts of the case be included. Unfortunately, we live in a lazy society now and many people just read and rely on Wikipedia . Can someone here who knows how Wikipedia posting works contribute there with a vengeance with the real facts. They have successfully transformed a cowardly murderer into a victim and hero. I think the undisputed fact that would personally hurt him the most on Wikipedia is the testimony of his trainer that despite all the training, he is just a weakling and couldn’t punch and can’t fight. That was a knockout to his ego. You can’t make a hero out of such a coward and weakling. That was the reason for the bogus family rescue story that he was able to pull out this family — and Dad looks almost twice Trayvon’s size with an nonathletic build like “Georgie”. I’m hoping there will be a civil trial and the facts will be revealed.

  13. jodiwankanobi says:

    on a personal note, i’d like to say how much i detest bill oreilly. A bigger piece of racist shit i have never seen. How he thinks he can judge anyone else considering he paid to silence his accuser of sexual harassment is beyond me. Oh and i forgot. O’reilly is WHITE! What is wrong with the white people in American society…all this sexual harassment and such…

    how can that blow hard be stopped?

    • MDH says:

      A man is often the product of his environment. Bill grew up in Levittown, Long Island during the 1950s. At that time, Levittown was a Sundown Town.

      A good read about Sundown Towns:

      I cite the text supporting my claim here

      “It turns out that Anna and Jonesboro are not unique, or even unusual. Beginning in about
      1890, and continuing until 1968, white Americans established thousands of towns across the
      United States for whites only. Many towns drove out their black populations, then posted
      sundown signs. Other towns passed ordinances that African Americans were not allowed after
      dark or prohibiting them from owning or renting property; still others established such policies
      by informal means, harassing and even killing those who violated the rule. Some sundown
      towns similarly kept out Jews, Chinese, Mexicans, Native Americans, or other groups.
      Independent sundown towns range from tiny hamlets like De Land, Illinois (population
      500), to substantial cities like Appleton, Wisconsin (57,000 in 1970).3 Sometimes entire
      counties went sundown, usually when their county seat did. Independent sundown towns were
      soon joined by “sundown suburbs,” which could be even larger: Levittown, on Long Island, had
      82,000 residents in 1970, while Livonia, Michigan, and Parma, Ohio, had more than 100,000.
      Warren, a suburb of Detroit, had a population of 180,000, including just 28 minority families,
      most of whom lived on a U.S. Army facility…”

      I believe it was Malcolm X who said “Up North is Up South”.

      I would just ask O’ assholey why he feels the world he grew up in was so great.

      I mean all I see is a man pig ignorant of anybody unlike himself. Being stupid is not a virtue.

      • crazy1946 says:

        MDH, Thank you for posting this enlightening expose of white America and It’s methods of exclusion of “what was” considered less worthy members of our common society….. In your opinion how prevalent is this problem today and what can we do to ensure that all of our fellow citizens are on equal footing? Why does the RHIP mentality still exist in this nation? Should the possession of wealth allow one to own another human, figuratively speaking, if not by physical bonds? I guess this post is full of too many “why’s”, but I simply fail to grasp the need to feel superior to another person for any reason, much less because of the color of their skin or the possession that they have……

      • MDH says:

        My family stayed in Detroit as a lot of white people fled to the Sundown Suburbs. In the 1960s, the NW part of Detroit was a defacto apartheid section of the city. The motor city moron – Nugent – lived in Rosedale Park. Rosedale Park, at that time, was a bastion of racist white snobs. I can tell you for a fact that the views spouted by people there about any non-white person were bloody awful. Basically, any non-white was portrayed as a disease to be avoided like the plague.

        In the 1970s, that all changed fast. So a large part of my teens and young adult life was spent living and hanging out with people not like me.

        To this day, I can not relate to people who have spent their lives in one of these bastions of whiteopia. Their idiotic theories about the characteristics of people they have never really been close to in any way is surpassed by their hubris. If challenged by someone who actually has lived amongst “the others”, they will just spout something they read in the paper or saw on TV as evidence that you are wrong.

        We saw Robert Zimmerman do that.

        He posted a picture of the supposed black thugs he thought shot a baby to prove that his brother’s poisoned minded fears about Trayvon had merit.

        Has he retracted that in light of the baby shooting being based on a lie?

        Of course not.

        Lying about black people in order to deny them equal rights and justice is a cottage industry in the land of whiteopia.

        So what can a white person do?

        Easy, become a race traitor in their eyes and tell them to go F themselves.

        • crazy1946 says:

          MDH, I suppose having grown up and lived most of my life in a racially diverse rural area where most (but not all) people simply found it necessary to rely on one another to survive, I was not aware of the depth of the true racial divide that infects this nation. This might account for the reason sometimes that I find it necessary to ask question of those people who have actually experienced the problem up close and personal. I can’t and won’t pretend to know the pain that you or any other person of color have felt in the past, all I can do is attempt to not (intentionally) do anything to that increases that pain… With as much difficulty as we all have in controlling our own life, I have often wondered why anyone would seek to control the lives of others…. I guess that much like the dinosaur’s this old relic will go to extinction never fully understanding why people spend so much time and effort on spreading hatred….

  14. KateW says:


    Who knows if anything will come out of it but this is a good thing! We need to stay on it. Congrats to The Dream Defenders and many more that protested in Florida and around the country against the state’s biased SYG laws!!

    If nothing comes of this then that means we keep fighting and keep pushing!!

  15. JJ says:

    Cop who stopped Zimmerman in Texas won’t be punished for taking George’s picture. Zimmerman is toxic – anyone who comes near him is subject to scrutiny or other negative consequences. What is so special about fogen that he is so “protected”?

    • jodiwankanobi says:

      thank God. I couldn’t believe it, that after what he has gotten away with throughout the course of his life and especially to Trayvon that someone may pay dearly for taking a friggen photo.

    • colin black says:

      Nothing special about him he is not protected.His weapon an the right to bear arms an shoot to kill is protected.
      If he had used a knife or a lump of concrete he would be in jail.

      The gun is like the Sacred Cow in India untouchable.

      • Malisha says:

        White privilege is untouchable. But had Fogen used a knife he would have been treated like a Hispanic, not like a white.

  16. ay2z says:

    By special request, and for a greeting early AM for Prof, here’s the ever talented brother team, alumni of the Larry Welk Ellocution, Polka and Cabbage Roll Cookery College, leaving intros to Robin and Billy (bubbles) Chrystal……

  17. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    For those of you who might have missed it, here is the link to the petition that Sybrina and Tracy started:

  18. ay2z says:

    Calling All Angels

  19. ay2z says:

    Rainbow Warrior Festival’

  20. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    “SNCC Field Secretary: Trayvon Martin is This Generation’s Emmett Till”

  21. KateW says:

    Professor, there was an article posted about a Jackson County Clerk, Sharon Synder, who was fired for giving an inmate’s sister a copy of a “publicly available document”. This document or how to write one properly allowed the inmate to be granted the DNA evidence in his case to be tested.

    So I ask you Professor, where can inmates or family members or friends assisting inmates, find proper forms or templates on how to write and specifically ask for what is needed for their case? I suppose it is gives people an idea how to construct a proper/formal letter. There are models out there on how to write business proposals or grants. So is there a place to find how a letter should be properly written by an inmate to request certain things.

  22. ay2z says:

    Charlie Hill, in the circle of humour. (intro by Graham Greene)

  23. ay2z says:

    To Bring Back Yesterday,
    Fara Palmer

  24. ay2z says:

    Children of the World
    Susan Aglukark along with Willie Dunn, Don Ross, Shingoose, Fara Palmer and Sylvie Bernard. Recorded in 1994.

  25. Jeanette says:

    Good evening.

    One thing I failed to mention in the previous blog entry requesting suggestions for the site-I would be very interested in seeing a blog entry for the sole purpose of soliciting contributor’s summary, post-trial “theories of the crime” in the Fogen case, with specific attention to motive and detailed theories of the confrontation just prior to the murder of Trayvon. I suspect a follow-up blog would produce an interesting, comprehensive set of theories that the Prosecution could’ve utilized, but, for whatever reason, did not.

    Something I’m struck by–I recall reading many contributors here providing well-researched, clearly articulated, plausible positions and theories on these matters throughout the duration of the case and being impressed. Even though some tended to diverge on minor points, I think folks here mostly got it right, the right way. However, I couldn’t, in good faith, say that I’m at all clear on the Prosecution’s strongly articulated theory and position as to motive/intent (both opportunities for elaboration introduced by the NEN call) and the particulars of the confrontation itself.

    Yes, the actual evidence available addresses these matters satisfactorily in my mind, but in terms of a cohesive, narrative offered to the jury by the Prosecution, I don’t see it. As just one example, it’s all well and good to tell the jury Fogen didn’t kill TM because he had to, he killed him because he wanted to. But where’s the drill down follow-up narrative on why he wanted to? Yes, independent conclusions can easily be drawn from exhibits and testimony, but where was the Prosecution’s compelling narrative as to the question of “why”? Inasmuch as I fault the jury 100% with improperly acquitting Fogen, if they were asked, and answered in good faith, I don’t know that even one of them would be able to recall the Prosecution’s theory of “why”.

  26. ay2z says:

    Amazing Grace in Inuit

  27. ay2z says:

    Ooleena Nowyuk of Iqaluit singing Inuktitut Gospel Song.

  28. Woow! says:

    The destruction of the U.S. will be as a result of racist and their corporate masters. That is the only way this nation will tumble.

    • ladystclaire says:

      And IMO it’s well on it’s way to doing so as we speak. why did 9/11 happen on U.S. soil do you think? there has been so much hate coming from those who call themselves conservatives in this country, till it’s a shame.

      For a country that’s suppose to be so welcoming and, made up of immigrants, then why the hell are only certain people of a particular race are being welcomed here? also, contrary to what white racist think, this country does not belong to any one race, just because Christopher Columbus claims to have discovered a country, that has been inhabited for centuries by those who are now called Native Americans.

      This is “NOT” their country exclusively and, it never will be.

  29. ay2z says:

    Friends, enjoy! (something a little different,, and wonderful music choice)

  30. Sophia33 says:

    Thinking of you guys. Just wanted to say hello.

  31. Two sides to a story says:

    I love me some O’Donnell, especially when he’s putting O’Reilly and his ilk in their places.

    • Shada524 says:

      That was great. The disgust I feel for people like Bill O’Reilly knows no limit. These people sit on television catering to a population who don’t give a flying f*** about what is going on in the black community. They feed the racism beast. O’Reilly and his ilk make money off these racists while they sit around and congratulate themselves on how right they are about the thugs and lament about wanting their country back. Sometimes I wonder how my ancestors did it? In the face of such bigotry and hate, how did they survive?

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Your comment is right on, Shada.

    • Woow! says:

      I liked crazy Keith Olberman. I miss his show because he was not afraid to call BS when due.

  32. fauxmccoy says:

    just ensuring that i clicked the appropriate box to ‘follow’. it’s a glorious day in northern CA, i’ve had some much desired laser work on my face and lit up like a christmas tree, visited my aging mother and trying to get the kids situated for ‘back to school’ in under 2 weeks. hope all is decent in y’all’s neck o’the woods.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      It’s a brilliant day down here in Carmageddon too. Even the air seems cleaner than usual.

      Heal up face, happy face.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        🙂 thank you for adding to the pleasure of my day.

        also accomplished — one tenor sax for my sophomore in high school marching band. yipppeeeee (i hope she’ll let me play it some)


    • jodiwankanobi says:

      hey faux, just replying to you here because i only just read a question you asked me many moons ago but i didn’t see it until today sorry. Yes i am Jo. I started an account and to do so i had to have a longer name, now when i post i put in my email and jodiwan just comes up automatically. I posted something when it happened to let all know that it was just moi but it no doubt got lost among the millions of other posts…so hi!! 🙂

  33. JJ says:

    Did a search: justice for trayvon
    Interesting article came up on Huffington Post about the history of the black vote and what lengths had been made to get the black ballots and their vote counted.
    “Exactly 50 years ago, Civil Rights activists in Mississippi launched one of the most significant acts of direct democracy in U.S. history. After two bloody, grueling years of trying to register black voters in the face of massive retaliatory violence, Bob Moses and Allard Lowenstein of the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee (SNCC), along with leaders in the Council of Federated Organizations (COFO) decided to create their own ballots and polling stations so that the disenfranchised could participate in state-wide elections. Dubbed the “The Freedom Vote,” the seeds were planted on August 6, when the movement mobilized some 27,000 unregistered black voters to show up at the polls for the gubernatorial primary with ballots in hand. The votes were not just symbolic; there was a legal precedent dating back to Reconstruction when the state passed a law allowing ex-Confederates to cast provisional ballots on the basis that they had been unlawfully disfranchised. ”

    After learning the background of the black vote, there is a new call:
    “A New Freedom Vote: Justice for Trayvon and the Fight for Democracy”

    “As I write these words, dozens of activists — Black, Latino, Asian and white, queer and straight, young and old — are explaining what is at stake, linking the denial of justice for Trayvon and the millions like him with the lack of political power and representation in their own communities, the lack of jobs, decent schools, affordable housing, growing rates of incarceration, police violence, and the many forms of insecurity residents struggle with every day. They are reminding voters that the Sanford police took 45 days before indicting Zimmerman, and they only did so after national outcry. In the interim, the police mishandled evidence and members of the force protected Zimmerman rather than do their jobs. They are explaining that the justice department not only has the authority to bring these charges, but it has already investigated 13 other police departments, forcing some to sign consent decrees agreeing to alter practices around racial profiling, brutality, and protecting the right of due process. As Strategy Center founder Eric Mann pointed out at the campaign’s launch event, “Our goal isn’t to collect the most votes but to create educated voters.””

  34. Two sides to a story says:

    Florida, Florida, Florida. : /

    Today [August} 5, the Supreme Court allowed Florida to execute a patently insane man named John Ferguson, a man with 40 years worth of paranoid delusions chronicled by government doctors, a man who considered himself the “Prince of God.” This Court allowed the execution to proceed even thought it has for decades purported to forbid the execution of prisoners who are considered too ill, too mentally incompetent, to comprehend the nature of what is being done to them. Not a single justice dissented from the Court’s decision to effectively abandon the core of its Eighth Amendment jurisprudence. Not a single justice explained the retreat. Not one.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      that’s disgusting.

    • Malisha says:

      I’ve been with the appellate lawyers on Florida death sentence cases and I doubt there is a single decent judge in their high court. I have not even seen a proper dissent, not once. And one decent judge in a civil case wrote a personal plea to the appeals court above her in a case she heard, and she specifically begged (using that word) the court to institute an investigation into one of the decisions that had come down, and they wouldn’t, and as a result a kid was handed over to a pedophile and the scene went from bad to worse until the kid and his father got into a knock-down-drag-out when the kid was 17 (and didn’t want to be abused any more) that necessitated taking the kid out of his father’s house while both of them had hospitalizable injuries, and 13 years prior, this judge had known it was happening and couldn’t even stop it. Two judges who ruled in favor of protecting the kid were kicked off the case by 24-hour-turnaround motions to recuse. Figure.

  35. You all have thoughtful comments says:

  36. willisnewton says:

    Many things are possible. What GZ claimed happened is not possible.

    • Girlp says:

      No, but they replaced standard self defense with SGY so that the jury would not be able to look at this from the beginning and took Trayvon’s right to defend himself away. The only thing that can be done at this time is to modify or get rid of SYG and with the country worried that the “minorities” are taking over and going to kill all White people with that mindset it’s hard to change the law. SYG was never needed you always had the right to defend yourself, the old self defense laws demanded that at the very least the incident was investigated and from there self defense was determined…many people never went to jail or court because it was determined that they were the victim not the deceased and normally there were witnesses to the incident. SYG is dangereous really deadly, as it is in Florida it is legalized murder.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        The courts should never allow the victim of a case to be turned into a thug in the way that was allowed in Trayvon’s case.

        But the world got a good look at racism in action in Florida – may it be rooted out forever!

  37. Malisha says:

    A friend just sent me this article.
    I have to re-read it several times over and meditate on it.

    • Woow! says:

      Good article however reading some of the comments there are a few that just do not get it. Me thinks they are intellectually challenged to see that the system was not designed with blacks in mind.

      • bettykath says:

        The system was designed with Blacks in mind, but in a way that doesn’t provide them with the same opportunities nor justice. Watch this video again. It isn’t an accident that things are the way they are. It’s all working as designed by those who don’t want their status quo disturbed.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I gotta absorb it too – but like the URL – indeed, all the demons are rising from the sewer again.

      And back we’re going to put them!

  38. ay2z says:

    Was the wanna-be fugitive catcher and roadside wanna be good samaritan, driving nowhere in particular, wherever that is/was/wasn’t, hoping in the back of his mind, that he would happen upon someone to either save or shoot?

    If so, if either event in the news since his release from bond, he’ll surface again. He could be feeling out a community from the ‘gunside’, he didn’t drive from central Fl to Dallas area for a picnic.

    • ay2z says:

      Trivia news, on the weekend, the overpass you see ahead in the ‘chase and stop’ that wasn’t’, had Obama haters doing their thing in protest for impeachment.

      Sounds like a good community for fogen.

    • Girlp says:

      I don’t know if any state has SYG quite like Florida, if he tries this again somewhere else he may not get away with it. The problem is someone gets hurt or dies. I can’t believe anyone believes his head was beaten on concrete but much of the press does believe his injuries came from his head being beaten on concrete even though not one eye witness ever saw him being beaten on concrete. As a matter of fact they did not see any hitting, even witness 6 could not say for sure there were blows so how does the press and the jury come up with this.

      • type1juve says:

        Good point about the press swallowing Fogen’s lies whole and reporting them as truth. I hold them just as responsible as all of the other players in the travesty that they called a trial.

      • Jasmine says:

        I refer to the press as ‘gossipers’. They just tell what they heard and don’t fact check or investigate anything. They should have been questioning the evidence and making sure that what they were reporting was accurate and factual. Therefore they are nothing but gossipers.

  39. Drew says:

    Curious as to what the faux-liberals over at Daily Kos say about this stuff but don’t dare venture over there.

    Care to post a sample, MDH?

    Also, besides hammering on the head-bash self-defense lie / idiocy / assault on common sense, why didnt they hammer on the scream lie. That shit is so obvious unless you’re an overt racist or a lazy zimmerman apologist. There’s no way the fat fucker was screaming like that while getting “beaten to death” and smothered, and then stopped immediately when TM was shot. Truly bizarre.

    • Drew says:

      Is there some legitimate legal reason not to pursue the lies of a defendant? Is it some strategy I’m not aware of?

    • MDH says:

      I just lurked there. The one that comes to mind was Coffee Talk. another was Johnny Wurster.

      I think Wurster was the one who tried to argue that any white person against Zimmy the Poo lived in a gated community and did not know how tough the “real world” is.

      I would rather not contribute to a site that let’s such a BS statement be taken with any degree of fact.

      Chauncey Vega has tried to challenge Daily Kos about the fact that a lot of liberals are racist and are just masters of being able to use obfuscation to deny it.

      All one need do is what I call the white test.

      Replace Trayvon with Timmy the gregarious blue eyed, blond haired white boy who just turned 17 with an interest in aviation and keep GZ the same creep he is.

      Does anyone really believe the outcome of a trail would have been the same?

      Denying that race was a factor is, in and of itself, an indicia of non rational thought.

      • concernedczen says:

        There’s a lawyer over there Adam something I think. He is a complete racist.

        That is why I do not post there any longer. So many people on dailykos are racially biased.

        • MDH says:

          Was he not the one who was trying to give credence to the black people have lower IQs due to genetics theory. I think he harped on the great statistical work. All statistics do is measure something. If the data taken is crap, then all one gets is perfectly measured crap.

          First of all, the genetic diversity within the arbitrarily and not too scientifically defined categories of race is greater than across.

          That ought to stop anyone in their tracks.

          What is interesting is that the evil unions were way ahead of their time.

          In this 1946 film on racism, they postulated that all people in the world trace a lineage to brown skinned people in Africa, Today, the genome and linguistics are pointing to the San people as the oldest group of humans. Out of one many and out of many one.

          • concernedczen says:

            I didn’t know that racist lawyer adam from dailykos said that, but I’m not surprised.

        • a2nite says:

          Now the trial is over, it’s better @ DK.

      • a2nite says:

        @MDH: Agreed.

    • Malisha says:

      Question for Donnelly should have been:

      Those people who screamed in Vietnam, what was happening while they were screaming?

      A: they were wounded.

      Q: Were any of them being shot?

      A: Sure.

      Q: Were any of them FIRING their weapons?

      • Trained Observer says:

        It disgusts me that Donnelly wasn’t hauled back into court before the verdict was rendered to have his testimony struck, and to explain himself on how it came to be that he felt eligible, or the defense felt him eligible, to testify in the first place. Vermin.

        • Drew says:

          I feel like in another state and in a non-thrown trial they would not have been allowed to testify the way they did. What expertise did they have? They were merely experts in I-Want-My-Friend-To-Stay-Out-Of-Jail-ology.

          • concernedczen says:

            Many people would not have been allowed to testify if the case was not clearly fixed including Donnelly, Dennis Root, the ridiculous mother who was burgled, and all of the Zimmerman’s buddies who lied and stated that it was his voice on the tape.

  40. Deborah Moore says:

    I’m listening to The Best of Otis Redding while I’m doing my thing here. So, I want to share this one for all of you seekers of truth.

    • Shada524 says:

      Deborah…you’re trying to start something :). I fell down the You tube rabbit hole listening to Otis Redding last week.

      • Deborah Moore says:

        Most awesome. I’m listening to vinyls…through JBL speakers. Another one to share here, but I don’t want to clog the wheels of progress, is A Change Is Gonna Come. So many lives have been cut down too soon.
        And, something we kind of don’t want to face is that we are all dying. It’s inevitable, but we don’t know where, why and when.
        (I was dancing outside earlier, to and with Otis, and I hope none of my neighbors saw. 🙂 )

        • bettykath says:

          Always dance as if no one is watching. Enjoy!

          • ay2z says:

            Great Philosophy!!

          • fauxmccoy says:

            this is what makes me dance as if no one is watching (but i don’t care if they do)

            put it on full screen mode and turn up LOUD! 🙂

          • Deborah Moore says:

            Ladies! Aren’t you the women who were recently given a Fullbright?

            Woo Woo Woo Woo….

          • fauxmccoy says:

            😀 😀 😀

          • bettykath says:

            I started dancing as if no one was watching several years ago. I was in a club with a great blues band. I couldn’t sit still, so I stood, than I started to sway, then I just decided that a partner was not needed, so I danced. Now, when the mood and the music are just right, I dance. My most recent venture was with a Beatles mania group. I was the only single on the dance floor for the first number. Then two women joined me and we danced as singles, then twos and sometimes all three more or less together. By the end of the evening, there were a number of people dancing with and without partners and mixing and matching as it suited. I didn’t know anyone and I think that most people knew only one other. Great time!

          • bettykath says:

            fauxy, thanks for the Paul Simon. I really like what he did while in Africa, an added dimensin. But African music doesn’t need Paul Simon to be great.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            thanks bettykath — you are correct that african music does not need paul simon, but that is his tendency as a musician to take up various rhythms he finds around the world and incorporate it into the music already in his head. he clearly took up the puero rican beats he heard on the streets of his native new york, long ago. i think he’s a fabulous musician. david byrne of the talking heads does the same thing – just always looking for rhythms outside their own sphere, which i do like. some may see it as co-opting — but i think what they do is valuable in bringing world music to the masses so that the masses can be intrigued enough to go find more on their own.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            Great music!

            I found this original African version of “The Lion Sleeps Tonight” a while back:

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            Also this:

  41. Girlp says:

    It is strange that the prosecution entered the fake picture aren’t there rules in the chain of evidence, isn’t this what hurt the prosecution in the OJ case? That picture should have been inadmissiable.

    • MichelleO says:

      I remember the OJ case, and among the many things that hurt the prosecution, was the fact that a police officer took blood samples home and later sprinkled those blood drops onto the socks of the defendant. That and a police officer trying to submit a racist Hollywood script.

      • Girlp says:

        The prosecution entered Fogen’s hearsay statements, Sema Ilyer say’s this was a huge error Fogen would have most likley taken the stand if they not done this, they did not link the evidence just handed over their timeline did not object to much of anything allowed West to badger Rachel and entered evidence that was lost in the chain of evidence that picture never should have been there. I remember in the OJ case the blood had perservatives added, and yes the racist cop didn’t help their case at all. I believe OJ most likley was guilty but believe the jury did the right thing…Oh I forgot anyone should know a wet leather glove will shrink and having him to put on a latex glove before trying on the glove was a really stupid move. I don’t believe OJ did it alone however. They really flub the investigation, so did SPD in Trayvon’s case.

        • MichelleO says:

          When you have proof that the police tampered with the evidence, how are you going to believe anything they say after that?

    • Shada524 says:

      Girlp…I asked the same question upthread. I don’t understand why they entered the picture. I guess it was their continued protection of SPD. This just further angers me.

      • Girlp says:

        I’m worried about the Dunn case that he may get away with murder as well, Florida is a place I don’t care to visit again after all this…. God forbid if you happen to scare someone.

        • Yorazigo says:

          We certainly hope he doesn’t get away with it. One positive thing is that there’s no evidence of major support by big $$$ backers like GZ had

  42. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Outstanding talk by Rev. William J. Barber II.

    Here’s how we all can stand up and steadfastly stop those people who want to turn the clock back.

    • pat deadder says:

      Yahtc Wow I’m so glad you posted Rev.Barber.He shock me out of my hopelessness.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Yes, he tells it like it is!

        Here is an excerpt from this talk by Rev. William J. Barber II :

        The reason these extremists are doing what they are doing is not because we’re weak. 
It’s their reaction to our STRENGTH. 
They are doing what they’re doing because we’ve been successful. They are doing what they’re doing because they know that if you open up elections and everybody votes, their narrow-minded agenda cannot win. That’s why every time they critique the movement, they engage in political paranoia.

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:

          He says,

          “We are the real conservative Christians because we want to conserve LOVE; we want to conserve Justice……”

        • pat deadder says:

          Yahtc In the other blog it was about how can the blog be improved.I’d like to see positive things people are doing. My Mother used to say in the Bible it was asked ”Can he who hates justice govern”.Not sure where that is.Rev Barber and all the people in NC were so uplifting.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            Great idea, pat!

            I, too, would like to read stories about the positive work people are doing for the cause and for their communities.

  43. Trained Observer says:

    Am bringing this over from previous thread … perhaps the professor or other attorneys on board here can address:

    Presumably at some point O’Mara and West need to capitalize on their fame/infamy to snag other paying clients or gigs, meaning they’ll no longer be at Fogen’s 24/7 beck and call.

    Do normal clients (not to mention psychopaths like Fogen) with long-term daily relatonships with their attorneys often have trouble loosening ties from the daily check-ins, etc. and getting on with their lives???

    Is it likely Fogen has had/will have difficulty breaking it off with MOM/West, and somehow feel a sense of abandonment? (I must admit that I certainly hope so.)

    Essentially, how likely is it that Fogen ends up making a pest of himself with his former legal team …. to a point where they’ll be changing their phone numbers or maybe … 🙂 … even seeking restraining orders?

    • Girlp says:

      When MOM is through making money off Fogen it’s over and may be a dangerous moment for the lawyers or that’s when Fogen will try to provoke someone so he can kill again. In any case will be back to chasing people down and calling the police he did it for years and is not about to stop now.

  44. colin black says:

    Deborah Moore says:

    August 6, 2013 at 8:25 am

    This may be juvenile, but I still think Paul was the cutest Beatle.


    Elijah says:

    August 6, 2013 at 8:47 am

    Call me pedantic as well – I’m going with George


    Im a male but you are both wrong the best looking Beatle was the original drummer Pete Best.

    He had movie star looks an all the girls swooned over him
    After gigs George Paul an John were flattened in the stampeade of girls trying to get to Pete.

    This Is the real reason Pete Best a brilliant an handsome drummer was axed from the band.

    An they replaced him with a mediocre but ugly drummer called Ringo.

  45. colin black says:

    The non near dieperdom attack was irrelevant once the STATE entered foggage recon vt into evidence an his statements that he thought Trayvon was reaching for his gun.

    Wouldn’t matter if he didn’t even have those superficiall scratches.Once the State let it be known foggage alleged Trayvon was reaching for his gun with one of his multiple arms.

    That in its self is justification for the use of lethal force..

    No matter that the State threw this case an helped the guilty avoid takeing the stand as they got his defence out without him having to face cross.

    They also had a jury primed and ready to aquit no matter what .
    After the shock an with reflection its obvious this was a show an no tell .

    The gun an gun owners white gun owners rights are paramount in Merica .

    The eejit defendant wasn’t protected his choice of murder weapon was.

  46. doce

    Good morning, everyone!

  47. MDH says:

    I think this song hits on the primal fear that Zimmerbots have in their lizard brains.

    best lines:

    You took away our father’s gold

    Robbed them of their sevenfold

    Now you’re locked behind the door

    not knowing one day we would know the score, mon

  48. YQ says:

    I’ve been away for a while dealing with work and midterms… but I’m still keeping up with all you guys!

    I hope GZ gets nailed with the civil suit so he can pay up all of the proceeds from those BS books that were supposedly donated to his “defense fund”. His father is a racist and I wouldn’t doubt that his mom is too.

  49. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Good Morning Everyone!

    Hope all of you have a great day!

  50. gblock says:

    Hi everyone,

    A lot of times, I mostly lurk and don’t post that much. Now that I have a chance, I would like to discuss some things related to the Zimmerman trial now, while I have a little time to do so.

    The head-bashing story has been repeated so often that it is sure to be an obstacle to overcome in either a federal civil rights case or in a wrongful death lawsuit. Even though they didn’t say so, I am sure that many if not all of the jurors had heard this story many times before the trial even started, not to mention the many times that it was repeated by defense during the trial.

    So, to have any chance of overcoming this in future legal actions, it will be necessary to keep hammering away at this story and pointing out that it could not have happened that way. The second thing that will be necessary is to put together a different narrative – and to keep repeating certain crucial (and memorable) aspects of it.

    One thing that really puzzled and disappointed me about the trial was that prosecution threw out many facts and pointed out many things that were issues about Fogen’s story. But they never seemed to put together an alternate narrative in any organized way.

    The first part of BDLR’s closing really bothered me (and had me thinking WTF?) He was positing Fogen’s chasing of Trayvon as a well-intentioned, though foolhardy, effort to raise the alarm on a possible burglar (based on him matching the “profile” of someone who had previously committed one or more burglaries in the neighborhood). I felt like calling out NO! He should have been pointing out that there were problems with Fogen’s actions from the start, and he didn’t push that issue as he should have.

    Guy started out strong with his closing, but I think it was a serious mistake that in the end, he went with a scenario in which Trayvon was on top, but had started pulling away. The problems with his doing this are: 1) This lent a degree of credence to the head-bashing claim – even though he may not have intended to do so. It would certainly lead someone to believe that Trayvon was probably attacking Fogen. 2) A juror who somewhat believed this version might still think that Fogen would have had reason to worry about Trayvon coming back and continuing an attack. 3) There was good reason to show a different position as being more likely.

    I am not sure that the prosecution ever really “got it” in terms of the scenario that most of the regulars on this blog seem to accept – that Fogen was holding on to Trayvon’s shirts at the time that he aimed and fired. I suspect that the gunshot and DNA evidence will not be enough to get a jury to accept it. But also showing how this is consistent with Fogen’s body language and his talk about being careful not to shoot his other hand during his statements, if this is all put together as evidence supporting this claim, might be.

    All in all, for a later case against Fogen to succeed, it will be necessary to do a much better job of putting together a clear narrative and leading the jury to the desired conclusions through thorough explanations, a task in which the prosecution in the recent trial failed in a serious way.

    • MDH says:

      Bill Maher got is short and sweet:

      Fogen is a big fat f’in liar who should not be trusted. Repeat that often enough and people will see the evidence.

      Head bashing = two superficial capillary wounds???? yeaa…. right

      A punctuate wound to the nose and a mild swelling to one side of the bridge of the nose = 20 to 30 MMA style blows???? Are you kidding???

      Or my favorite.

      5’11” Trayvon leaps out from behind the three foot high shrubs he was using for cover to surprise GZ. That whopper brings to mind this scene from Spinal Tap:

      Go to 2:16 to see how the dwarfs get dwarfed by Stonehenge

      I could go on with about ten more examples, but I think the picture is clear.

      A civil trial is preponderance of the evidence.

      So it becomes a case of whose story fits the evidence better: Ours or GZ’s?

      • roderick2012 says:

        “5’11″ Trayvon leaps out from behind the three foot high shrubs he was using for cover to surprise GZ”

        IIRHC those shrubs were hiding AC units so there would have been no place for Trayvon to stand or squat and wait to ambush Piglet even if it had occurred.

      • lurker says:

        I think that the big fat liar scenario is what the prosecution went with and it didn’t fly. I think we all cheered when they finally brought out the dummy to show the impossibility of gz pulling his gun while straddled. But the jury apparently got the wrong message. Apparently the demo just cemented in their minds the image of Trayvon atop gz. And O’Mara took it further bouncing the inert dummy’s head ln the floor.

        I do think it will be very important in a civil trial, if there is one, to very strongly establish a narrative that fits the evidence and emphasizes gz’s ongoing intent to follow and capture Trayvon–based on his baseless supposition that Trayvon was a criminal on his way to commit a crime. In so doing gz attempted to hold him, and when met with resistance and the attempt to get away, gz shot him.

        • MDH says:

          You may very well be right and I find that sad.

          I thought that a sniveling coward who had to lie because he is not man enough to own up to what he did was the lowest form of life in the so-called macho, take accountability, pull one up by one’s bootstrap meme that seems so popular in the USA.

          This trial has jaded me about the USA.

        • gblock says:

          The trouble with the big fat liar scenario is that it isn’t really a scenario, it’s the absence of a scenario. So one of the things that made the head-bashing scenario appeal to the jury, in addition to its familiarity, is that it is associated with a fairly clear narrative which can be easily visualized, however untrue and ridiculous we believe this narrative to be. I agree that, for the civil trial, it will be important to develop a narrative that fits the evidence, and to keep hammering on important aspects of that narrative.

    • aussie says:

      I know there’s a lot they were just glossing over, to save the SPD etc. But they really didn’t seem to GET the point at all about the following by car.

      They missed how deliberate and long-term it was; they missed how it caused Trayvon to fear ( as evidenced by running and by Rachel’s statement). They TOTALLY missed how the ONLY way the shooting could have happened where it did was if he’d CONTINUED following or searching. I add “searching” to stop anyone saying you can’t follow someone you’ve lost sight of.

      Most importantly they missed that GZ HIMSELF KNEW this following put him into the wrong. That is why he never mentioned it unless outright asked, why he downplayed it at every opportunity.

      The shooting itself? I would show only official photographs (the ones at the station) with witnesses stating how minor the injuries were. And ask them to speculate as to the possible causes: medical trauma experts would be allowed to speculate. Then I’d keep repeating Trayvon had no GZ blood or DNA on his hands.

      The holes not lining up would need be demonstrated on a dummy, showing how the only way they’d be like that is if someone were pulling on the shirts. Actually maybe not a dummy but two size-matched human actors.

      • MDH says:

        A point about the cell phone photos and the official photos.

        Blood tends to obscure the actual injuries that a person has. As a result, the logical thing is to clean up the blood and look at the actual wounds in good light to assess their severity.

        For example, stupid me once let a V handle at the gym fall onto my head. It laid open a cut that bled all over my face. I looked a lot worse than Georgie Poo Poo Bear. Anyhow, I pressed my thumb on it, cleaned it after it stopped bleeding, got a band aid, and returned to the gym in 15 minutes.

        Superficial wounds to the face and scalp bleed profusely, even though the injury is minor to non-existent.

        Which leads to another point you make.

        How does the profusely bleeding wound on the tip of GZ’s nose not get on Trayvon?

        • acemayo says:

          The defense said the rain water wash TM clean
          The defense said that the next blow could have been the one
          That kill GZ and the best one he fear for this life

          • MDH says:

            That must have been an amazing rain to wash Trayvon clean, but leave blood all over GZ’s head to the point that the back flows look dried.

            Seeing as the evidence points to there not being 20 to 30 blows, but more likely a minor strike by something that might nave been a hand, I assume that the defense means imaginary blow number 2 out of 20 to 30.

            If imagining that one is in fear for their life due to the possibility of a blow that does not happen is a basis for one to shoot another person dead, then may God help those who fall for that line of reasoning.

          • Drew says:

            @ MDH

            You mean God help the victims of those who fall for that line of reasoning.

          • MDH says:

            I meant God help the Zimmerbots in the sense of how Jesus said “Lord forgive them, for they know not what they do”.

            Being human and fallible, I don’t forgive them.

            My line would be more from The Ox-Bow Incident:

            “May God have mercy on their souls because they get none from me”

        • Drew says:

          Because GZ was on the bottom getting savagely beaten. The blood gushed out and dripped onto the ground, not Trayvon.

          Also, Trayvon’s hands were moving so fast, due to his being a gifted black athlete, that as they pummelled GZ there was no time for any blood to get on them. His fists were moving so fast that he would literally only hit GZ and there was no time for any contact with the blood.

          Also, during the car ride to the station, all of GZ’s head-bashing wounds all healed up, his concussion went away, and he felt fine enough to walk around because of the fact that Al Sharpton.


          I really think that the 20-30 head-bashes / smothering / MMA lie should have been the main thing that got GZ convicted.

          Combined with the basic forensic evidence: no DNA on TM, zero legitimate injuries on GZ, the intense screams of “George” not exactly being consistent with someone being smothered and killed by head-bashing, it seems pretty easy to poke holes in the story.

          Say I want someone dead, maybe I caught a friend sleeping with my wife. Purposely get in a heated argument with him, then shoot them in the face, and then to cover my ass tell the cops only MOMENTS later (and the media, the next day), “Oh it was because we got in an argument and then he was on top of me brutally beating me to death, I had to do it, shrug”, but I am not injured in any way except for a few scrapes, then clearly I’m making the story up, covering it up.

          I mean, couldn’t OJ have tried this?

          “Well, yes, I *was* there, you got me… but they were so angry when they saw me that they ATTACKED ME, yeah, BRUTALLY, yeah! And they were just about to kill me by punching me in the face repeatedly – at the time I think they broke my nose but I never got it checked out – when I decided, “Hey I’d better STOP them from KILLING ME, even though I just let them kill me for the past 5 minutes, by deciding suddenly, ‘Hey it’s about time I use some excessive force to make sure they don’t keep killing me’.

          Shrug, so anyways I just HAD to do it. I’m not sure how I’m so alert and non-injured right now as I tell you this story only moments after I narrowly escaped an inexplicable brutal beating by someone’s bare hands, but don’t worry about it – I’m sure this won’t even come up at my trial, in fact, it’s such a non-issue.”

          Doesn’t seem like that would be too hard to prove, with all “real” evidence pointing in the exact opposite of the story.

          Is calling someone a liar taboo nowadays (see George W. Bush’s presidency)?

          • roderick2012 says:

            Drew sez: I really think that the 20-30 head-bashes / smothering / MMA lie should have been the main thing that got GZ convicted.

            But, but Juror B37 stated that ‘George’s heart was in the right place’ and that ‘George had learned his lesson’. So stop picking on George even though he told Hannity that it was all “God’s plan” and “he had no regrets about that night and he wouldn’t change anything’.

      • MDH says:

        Drew, you see it clearly.

        Years ago, I had a cops son try to bait me into starting a fight so that he could meet force with force. I found it odd that a guy bigger than me would not make the first move after I loudly proclaimed that “if you want to fight, then it is up to you to start it”. He would just smile.

        I found out later from another cops son who was a “real thug” and liked to beat up people that baiting the victim to make a first move was a means to legally beat a guy down based on meeting force with force.

        The cops son who tried to bait me shot and killed a guy in the WSU science library in an argument about a girl they were both hot for.

        That’s why I call stand your ground “bait and kill”.

        And who was up on how to manipulate the law?



        • lurker says:

          Pretty common playground tactic, ‘but he started it.’

          I have watched kids go through it dozens of times–insults working their way up to taps and shoves jntil there is a hit.

          But, I don’t thknk that was gz’s method. I don’t thknk he set out to kill–merely to detain and turn lver to the police. And he was fool enough to believe that his weapon provided him a shield of safety to do so. But he was totally lacking in any engagement skills and physically incapable of taking Trayvon down. So his clumsy encounter was met with resistance, fear and attempts to break free. So he reached for his ‘equalizer,’ and hothead that he is, he fired.

          Then he sorked out the self-defense scenario as cover.

          • MDH says:

            I agree with respect to GZ.

            My point is that stand and ground can and will be used to bait and kill by others.

          • Malisha says:

            About bait-and-kill?

            If you do it and they take the bait, you kill.
            If you do it and they don’t take the bait, you kill. Who’s to say they didn’t take the bait?

      • Shada524 says:

        Regarding the picture the officer took on scene. How was the picture Zimmerman’s face admissible? He says he took the picture, downloaded it on his computer, deleted it from his phone, but then forgot he had it for three weeks. Why did the Prosecution enter it as evidence? Did they have a choice?

      • jodiwankanobi says:

        aussie you make a good point, gz was lying about why he got out of the car very early on…he must have known he was in the wrong and was trying to cover his tracks from the start.

    • //So, to have any chance of overcoming this in future legal actions, it will be necessary to keep hammering away at this story and pointing out that it could not have happened that way. The second thing that will be necessary is to put together a different narrative – and to keep repeating certain crucial (and memorable) aspects of it.//

      I’ll take the second part first. If the feds take the case, the prosecutorial narrative (about what really happened) is fine. I don’t believe a different one is needed in order to get the point across that Fogen is a lying, rageful, manipulative child killer. Any other story that latches onto anything that Fogen has asserted would only lead the prosecution down a dark rabbit hole. The feds would only need to show the truth, consistently …and in court.

      As far as the headbashing goes, DOJ should not bring this lie into the case at all. Fogen’s violation of Trayvon’s civil rights is clear without it. Fogen will need to assert this in the fed’s case, and when he does, they’ll show that it never happened and that Fogen is a lying, rageful, manipulative child killer.

      If DOJ takes the case, there’s one aspect of them for which I would be grateful. I never in my lifetime thought I would say this but the Feds’ mass psyops, counter-psyops game is better, deeper and wider than anything that the Fogenite family (including Fogenpop) could ever come up with. I believe Fogenpop retired from the Feds long before prism, fusion and such were fully operational. His family’s mass media/book writing schemes are clearly antiquated 1960-70 tactics.

      • Drew says:

        But why did he lie?

        Because that’s the justification for shooting.

        Which most people – and not just racist treehouse nuts – believe.

        They believe that the savage black beast was beating the nice crime watch man and crime watch man had to defend himself. Thus, acquittal.

        But there was no beating whatsoever. Poke holes in his stupid head-bashing lie and he goes down.

        • MDH says:

          Just look at all the GZ defenders at Daily Kos. Privileged mollycoddles never see or are in many real fights.

          I think the defenders of GZ get their real world data about black people from watching reruns of Juice on cable TV.

          From there, all it takes is one lying, racist use of force expert to confirm their non-rational bias.

          • Drew says:

            I’ve had a mommycoddled friend say to me, “a few months ago there were these vandals in our neighborhood and I went out on the porch with a baseball bat to threaten them. If they’d attacked me I would have used force. And you know you would too. It’s the same thing, really.”

            Only, no, it’s not.

            Only in the fevered dreams of racists is a kid walking home getting shot the same as defending your home from vandals with a bat.

          • MDH says:

            I weigh about 165lbs at 5″10″.

            Putting that into the perspective of the GZ fight, my attacker would need to be 130lbs at 6’10”.

            I could pick that guy up and take him home to momma.

            No need to hurt him.

          • pat deadder says:

            I don’t believe for one minute that any of those people believe any of fogen’s stories.They just hate blacks.If any one of them do believe the bullshit he spewed they are not only racists they are stupid racists.I also don’t think there will be a law suite,any SYG changes or DOJ investigation.I’ve lost all hope and believe the asshole got away again this time with murder..Hope Shelly has to pay for perjury.Fogen should have been charged with that too since he sat there like a potted palm but of course he wasn’t and won’t be.

          • pat deadder says:

            MDH Why were fogen’s phone records sealed.

      • gblock says:

        It is highly likely that defense will invoke the head-bashing story again and in order to prevail against them, it will be necessary to have a strong counter to it prepared in advance. However, the story is “out there” even before the defense uses it, because it has been invoked and discussed so often in the media. On the other hand, mentioning it first lends it a degree of credence, so there might be benefit in waiting for the defense to bring it up. It is tricky, in that the defense may have chances to hint at it before they bring up the full story explicitly.

        • Xena says:


          It is highly likely that defense will invoke the head-bashing story again and in order to prevail against them, it will be necessary to have a strong counter to it prepared in advance.

          The counter comes from GZ’s own words. Now, via Dr. Drew’s program, we also have Adam Pollock taking credit for “saving” GZ’s life by teaching him to “shrimp” which he used to get his head off the sidewalk. If being able to “shrimp” saved GZ’s life, then killing Trayvon did not.

          Self-defense cannot be claimed when the threat is no longer there. GZ alleges 3 things which all were no longer threats. First, GZ said he was punched in the nose. He didn’t use deadly force then.

          Secondly, GZ said he moved his head off the concrete so it would no longer come in contact with it. He didn’t use deadly force then.

          Third, GZ said that he was being smothered and could not breathe. He didn’t use deadly force then.

          It was BECAUSE he moved his head off the concrete (which Pollock says saved his life), that GZ’s gun was exposed. He “felt” that Trayvon saw the gun and pinned Trayvon’s arm.

          Effectively, GZ used deadly force when he was no longer under physical attack, and had Trayvon pinned. However, to justify killing Trayvon, he depends on those things that he said happened before he pinned Trayvon’s arm, none of which compelled him to use deadly force.

          Of course, this means agreeing with GZ’s story of having Trayvon straddle him. There are times when agreeing “quickly with thine adversary” is necessary to prove him wrong.

        • Malisha says:

          That won’t work in a civil case because the whole course of action (sighting, calling NEN, following, “looking for address” etc.) will come out in the civil trial. Trayvon Martin’s right to stand his ground will come out. And those witnesses who have testified in the criminal trial will be scared to change their testimony in the civil case, so none of them can have a “recovered memory” of seeing Trayvon attack Fogen. And the voice experts will come in, in a civil case.

    • MichelleO says:

      WE NOW know that the reason they omitted many of those things, is because they had already planned to throw the case. I am through worrying about this case, because there is nothing anyone can do. They made fools out of everyone who cares about justice or this case. People need to get off of their azzes across the nation and rally against NRA and ALEC (who are taking care of the murderer and his family).

    • JJ says:

      Poking holes in fogen’s stories was a defensive move. The prosecution would have had a better case to develop a scenario where all the fact fit in. Go through the scenario, Apply the facts. Then it would be up to fogen’s defense to poke holes in the prosecution’s scenario. That’s what prosecutors do. In the fogen trial, the lawyer’s roles were reversed.

      • aussie says:

        Absolutely, JJ

        The prosecution swallowed the defence bait, hook line and sinker, and ran the case on trying to show, poorly, that there was no severe injury. What they should have shown was what GZ was trying so hard to hide — that he’d followed, stalked and searched for Trayvon, both by car and on foot.

        Without the whole story of the following, the discrepancy between being sucker-punched at the T and the fight actually going down 41 feet away is nothing — his fly-swat re-enactment is enough to cover that. WITHOUT THE WHOLE CHASE. Once you factor that chase in, it is obvious he made that extra 41 feet HIMSELF, thereby going way off his alleged track back to his vehicle. Therefore HE started the confrontation, no matter who actually swung the first punch.

    • Xena says:

      @gblock. You make good points. I would like to add another that I think the prosecution missed and that we have not discussed. It’s what happened when GZ said Trayvon asked him if he had a problem. That branches off Serino’s capias that GZ had opportunity to introduce himself to Trayvon and failed to do so. Here, I’m using restrain specifically, and not “retain.” Also, I’m going by GZ’s story.

      GZ’s intent to restrain Trayvon is first noted on his NEN call when, without any statement from Sean giving him reason to comment, GZ says “These assholes. They always get away.”

      The second demonstration of his intent to restrain is when GZ says, “Shit. He’s running,” and he runs after Trayvon.

      The third demonstration is when he says Trayvon asked “What’s your problem?” and GZ engages in conversation rather than walking away. It was as if he was thinking, “My problem is that I need to restrain you, but I’ll first call 911 and then we’ll get to the physical part.”

      The fourth demonstration is when he says he pinned Trayvon’s arm and applied a wrist lock.

      The fifth demonstration comes after he shoots Trayvon; i.e., he gets on Trayvon’s back. In one of his statements he even said that he told Trayvon to not move and to be still. Even in death, GZ still intended to do what he wanted from the start which was to restrain Trayvon.

      Why restrain and not detain? Because if he simply wanted to retain Trayvon until the cop arrived, he would have introduced himself to Trayvon and told him he had called for a cop. He would have explained to Trayvon why he thought he was suspicious. He would have apologized for causing him fear enough to run from him.

      It’s the intent to restrain that is a violation of Trayvon’s civil rights. That intent led to Trayvon being murdered and his murderer claiming self-defense against a teen who he admits that he had pinned and unable to move when he placed the gun against his shirts and pulled the trigger.

      That is what Serino saw. The State should have used that capias, and expounded on it at trial.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        You are so right, Xena.

        And, in the reenactment video, gz asks Jon (W13) to help him restrain Trayvon:

Diferent Investigator…You had him face down then
Zimmerman…Yes, face down and I was on his back. Then somebody came with a flashlight and I thought it was a police officer. So I said, “Are you the police?” I still had my handgun out and I told him…I said, “Are you the police and my gun’s right here.” And he goes, “No, no I’m not, I’m calling the police.” I said, “Don’t call the police, help me RESTRAIN this guy.”

        • Xena says:

          @yahtc. Good catch! I had forgotten about that. Another number to add to GZ’s intention from the start to restrain Trayvon. Thanks.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:


            You know, someone (I think a Zimmie) said that you cannot clip a tactical flashlight to the type of kel-tec gun that gz had.

            Until I heard that, I had thought possibly that gz had the flashlight clipped to his gun and in his pocket rather than the holster at the start.

            ……..that gz might have pull it out of his pocket when Trayvon said, “Why are you following me for?”

            …….and, during the rolling struggle Trayvon was unsuccessful trying to keep gz from using the gun which was in gz’s hand the whole time.

            ……that in that unsuccessful attempt the tactical flashlight was dislodged from the gun and landed where it did on the ground.

            ……something is very fishy that no fingerprints were found on the tactical flashlight

          • Xena says:

            @yahtc. Tactical flashlights are designed for guns to slide unto the top. The flashlight then serves to guide the way to aim the gun.

            Not only is it fishy that GZ’s tactical flashlight was clean of prints, it’s also funny that Serino neither Singleton asked GZ why, how, or when he dropped either of the flashlights. They even failed to ask him how he got out of his truck so fast with that tactical flashlight.

          • aussie says:

            No clips were found.

            The tactical flashlights have a scalloped edge; the way to use them is rest the gun into one of the grooves these form. That way you have the light shining the same way the bullet will go, and have two hands on the gun and still hold a light at the same time.

            There is a tapping sound on the NEN call which could be him smacking the light to get it going. He SAID he failed to do so (but Serino had no trouble switching it on next day). If he didn’t get it going, why not put it into a pocket? He got it going ok and used it to search for Trayvon.

            In fact, in the first statement from the witness who saw left to right (south to north) running, she said 2 figures about 10ft apart with a FLASHLIGHT between. He had the light working and in his hand when the fighting started. That is why it ended up in the debris field right there.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            Well, I thank you both for your clarifications.

            How could I allow a zimmie to mislead me on the attaching of the flashlight to the gun?!

            So, if it had been attached and in use, gz had the gun out from the beginning!

          • Xena says:


            So, if it had been attached and in use, gz had the gun out from the beginning!

            In a post trial interview, Bernie said he believes that GZ got the gun out long before he says he did.

            Well, at least the DOJ knows what didn’t work and what they have to do at trial.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            Had Serino already found out that there were no fingerprints on the flashlight? Did he have gloves on when he handled it?
            Or, did he compromise the fingerprint evidence by handling it.

            Had gz placed it on the gun, his fingerprints would have been in the position necessary to do that vs just carrying the gun separately.

          • Xena says:

            @yahtc. Serino had no lab reports during his investigation. IIRC, no lab reports were ordered until Corey took over investigations.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            Got it.

          • Yorazigo says:

            Xena, I thought I remembered reading in the evidence that there were no fingerprints on the gun either. I’m not sure where to look for it

          • Xena says:

            @Yorazigo. At trial, IIRC, the testimony was no fingerprints, but GZ’s DNA and DNA where Trayvon was ruled out. It could have been Smith’s or any other officer that handled the gun.

    • kllypyn says:

      The prosecution should have known first of all his head bashing story was bull crap,first of all he had no injuries consistent with his claims. Second he was not disabled in anyway. It is impossible to repeatedly slam a person’s head into the sidewalk unless they have been disabled in some way. He had no defensive wounds and he would never have been able to grab his gun like he claims. If he was having his head repeatedly slammed in to the sidewalk he would have had injuries to his fingers and hands from trying to protect his head.and fighting back. He claims his arms were pinned,another obvious lie.His head was never slammed onto the sidewalk even his low life lawyers know that. Trayvon never punched him in the face multiple times either.

      The evidence shows he was holding onto the front of Trayvon’s shirts preventing his escape when he killed him. the evidence also show he was never on his back when he got those wounds on his head look at the blood flow which the prosecution did not even mention.

      They allowed the obvious lies of Zimmerman and his dirt bag lawyers to go unchallenged. they failed to emphasize the size and weight difference between Trayvon and Zimmerman would preclude Trayvon being a serious threat to him.

      O-moron described Trayvon as being emaciated after seeing picture of him lying on the coroners table. That alone should havebrought a guilty verdict.If his own lawyer admitted trayvon was so skinny he looked like he was starving that should have shown the jurors trayvon could never beat up a 200lb former bouncer by himself. but i don’t think they even cared. they heard his last screams and they didn’t care. they head how he tried to avoid contact with Zimmerman they didn’t care. now they want to make excuses as to why they let him go.

      They heard a scared 17 year old kid scream for his life and they let the man who killed go anyway. the martins did the right thing and let the law handle it and they still got screwed. the only one defending himself the night was TRAYVON BENJAMIN MARTIN unfortunately he didn’t stand a chance. I also believe he would have killed trayvon no matter what. DEAD KIDS TELL NO TALES.

      • gblock says:

        The prosecution knew that the head-bashing story was crap, and they kept throwing out other facts and evidence showing various parts of it to inconsistent or untrue. But they never put together their own coherent narrative of what happened. I remember the direction of the blood flow being mentioned by them during the trial, but they never went anywhere with it.

        They also got their witnesses to claim that Fogen was totally inept at fighting, and that Trayvon would have had an advantage over him during the altercation, which is nonsense. Even apart from the weight advantage, it is highly likely that Fogen had been working out with weights to improve his strength, and had at least a few fighting skills. Trayvon does not appear to have had any comparable training.

      • Boyd says:

        We and the prosecution all got caught up with the descriptive language to describe what happened. terms such as Following, Chasing.

        When in reality after Fogen got out the car with a loaded gun it was human hunting. And that was never brought up.

        I now look at the case as the result of a human hunt that the jury accepted and that the court totally ignored. I guess it’s legal to go human hunting.

        yeah that may seem far fetched but that’s what it was.

        • Malisha says:

          Human hunting has been practiced for over 300 years in the South. During slavery, if you human hunted someone ELSE’s human you might have to pay (with money) for the loss. Now that a kid like Trayvon Martin does not mean profitable work for 30 free years to a slave-master, hunting him is REALLY free.

          It has only changed in the rhetoric, not in the practice.

    • Lynn says:

      It bothered me that no one pointed out that red squiggly line matched the imprint of the gun…not a sidewalk. They pointed out the tiniest speck on his head on every side and top where no sidewalk touched…but never looked at the back of his head.

      His feet were laying as though he was twirling around and fell.

      llmpapa needs a video where tm is pulled around with gz tugging on his shirt, while avoiding shooting his hand. Then show gz freaking out seeing what he has done…and then whacks his own head causing the imprint and downward flowing, non smeared blood.
      THAT would be helpful to the new trial. Send it to Crump.

      • Xena says:

        @Lynn and anyone who is familiar with a gym. What type of gym equipment would leave a pattern such as the one you describe if pushed into or hit with?

  51. crazy1946 says:


  52. Soulcatcher says:

    Anybody for a midnight snack. Went to SIL for gumbo for my and Mr Soulcatchers b-day. We have chocalate cake with whipped cream and oreos, strawberry cheesecake, and carrot cake.

  53. Soulcatcher says:


  54. bettykath says:


  55. two sides to a story says:


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