Status of the site

Sunday, August 4, 2013

Good morning to all of our friends:

We have established a community as opposed to a website

We have formed relationships and we care about each other.

We are not a bunch of people posting disparate remarks in an attempt to impress others with how much we know or how clever we are.

Crane and I are proud of what all of us have accomplished.

One area that we can improve concerns lurkers. We average about 10 times as many lurkers as people who comment and I would like to see more lukers join our discussions.

When people first come to the site, I suspect they feel like they need to spend some time getting up to speed to seamlessly join the discussions. Nevertheless, we have people who have been lurking for up to a year and that is more time than necessary to get up to speed.

To all you lurkers out there, come on in. The water is fine.

To all of the regulars, please welcome the newcomers.

Does anyone have any recommendations regarding what we can do to improve this site?


494 Responses to Status of the site

  1. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    New post:

    Open Thread Early Tuesday Morning

  2. @crazy1946

    already been said, Thank you for your time, perhaps some time in the future when you are willing to have a discussion without the simple one line attempts at insults, we can actually have a discussion. Until that time I shall simply wish you a good evening…


    I get it now. Whatever is said receives a one-liner response from you because you already know it’s already been said.

    I now join others in ignoring you.


    Meaning and experience are not interchangeable.


    Look: “Experience and meaning are not interchangeable.” See?



    BTW, I’ve spent twenty-FIVE years writing and studying that; therefore, I MUST be right! Right? xD

    That’s right. Exercise that WHITE POWER. You don’t have to attempt to understand what people say. If they don’t do exactly what you say or make sure you’re not inconvenienced in any way, FUCK ‘EM.


  3. Retired and Extremely Dangerous (RED): says:

    I’ m new to the community. I have been lurking for over a year now. I need to know where GZ is in order to make certain that human society is safe from him. Have there been any recent siting of the child murder after Forney, Texas?

    • Xena says:

      He’s probably on his way up through California, then on to Canada and Alaska to get the support of Sarah Palin in his bid to run for president — along with some money. 🙂

      • fauxmccoy says:

        his ccw is not valid in california, i doubt he’d be welcome here. i suspect he is checking alternate routes.

  4. Jasmine says:

    First comment is off topic but I was shopping in Kroger today and over the PA I hear ‘phone call for Zimmerman on line ??, phone call for Zimmerman on line ??’. As I am hearing it and shaking my head two young black males come round the corner saying ‘George bet not be up in here’. I couldn’t do anything but laugh.
    Second I am unsure of how to make those who read here comment more. I only started commenting about 2 weeks before the end of the trial. I wanted to make sure that this place wasn’t like HP and I don’t really like to register for things as I don’t like to get junk mail. I think that some people, since they have been here longer, are more prone to discuss things with posters that they have known and not new ones as much. At least that is how it appears but once you jump in I think people start to comment more and discuss more easily.

    • aussie says:

      No junk mail here, Jasmine. You only get mail is you tick one of the notify-comments options.

      Haha about the Zimmerman story. The name is quite common. If you do a search you’ll find dozens in every county. Everyone will now think of George. The poor unrelated others must be getting sick of being asked if they’re related to him.

  5. Judy75201 says:

    I spent a weekend once reading Frog Gravy, and really enjoyed it. If someone doesn’t want to read it here, just pass it by. Damn!

    • Jeanette says:

      Hi Judy75201. For the first time, I just fully read an installment of Frog Gravy and thoroughly enjoyed it, to the extent I admire the author’s tenacity and wit in conveying what must be such a painful and frustrating matter. I recall having read, at some point in the past, Crane-Station’s dreadful experience with the corrupt system but hadn’t previously picked up on the association between any random comments and the regular blog entries we are privy to now.

      I look forward to reading any developments toward a just resolution in the matter and in furtherance of that goal, anything average joes and janes, such as myself, could do to help.

    • Shada524 says:

      Judy…I agree completely. I read it and was captivated.

      • concernedczen says:

        I also appreciate the Frog Gravy column. I won’t say “enjoyed” it because it was very upsetting to read.

        • MichelleO says:

          Frog gravy sound so nasty. I have had several people try to convince me that frog legs are delicious—taste just like chicken. No way! Same goes for gator tails. No way.

  6. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Short 9 minute history on the concept of whiteness and its origins and the history of convincing poor whites that their skin is more important than their economic interest:

    • bettykath says:

      Excellent video! I’ve long been stymied by the lower middle class folks I know who bemoan the poor (code for Black) folks who might get a hand up (an entitlement?) but who vote for those protecting the super rich. They regularly vote against their own best interests. And they are unable to talk about it. It’s irrational.

      I don’t remember where I heard it but it was a tale told by a white man about his father. They were poor, dirt poor. A Black neighbor had a mule. Boy and dad didn’t have a mule. Dad killed the mule. Boy asks “why?” Dad said, “You ain’t a man if you got less than a n…. Now that n…. ain’t got more than me.”

      At one time, a very long time ago, the white dentured and poor free, worked hand in hand with poor Blacks. And as Tim says, there were more of them then were of the landed whites. They needed a new enemy – each other.

      • Judy75201 says:

        I have found that the majority of racist “2nd Amendment Patriots” are losers themselves, and need to blame someone, ANYONE, for their own failures. Blacks are a convenient target to get their “feel good” on. It’s so pathetic.

      • Deborah Moore says:

        Where I live and have grown up most of my life, Poor is code for poor.

      • MichelleO says:

        @Bettykath: I wished I had saved this when I first read it; but it had to be about 1998 when I last saw the comment. Anyway, I read a comment by this famous 17th century Frenchman (don’t know his name) who made the statement that white Americans sounded like their slaves.

        I remember when I first came to came to the South in the 1980s and was taken aback at a business column that instructed whites to get Northern accents if they wanted to get ahead in the corporate world. It also advised black men not to wear blue suits because it did not look good on them. As a Northerner and sophisticated young lady of the world; I was simply appalled! Excuse, me, but if ANYBODY looks good in a blue suit, it is a black man.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          if ANYBODY looks good in a blue suit, it is a black man.

          Heck yeah, and the author of that column was probably jealous!

    • MDH says:

      Tim Wise has the fire of a Wobblie (IWW). Something sorely lacking in today’s society.

      At 2:26 scene where an IWW organizer lectures workers:

  7. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Why would the Retreat at TL install surveillance cameras at the front gate but not the back gate?

    • bettykath says:

      Probably the same reason some of the cameras didn’t work and there was insufficient lighting in the common areas and there were gaps in the wall – money is more important than safety.

    • colin black says:

      Because there not real cctv surveileing camras .
      There are faux fake dummys meant to deter not record.

      As most crims stake out fron entrances the spot camras an move on to another site without cctv.

      Its the cheap option an the cameras have no electronics there just sa shell a replica.

      As without full time monetering cctv cameras are useless at crime prevention.

      An 25 cctv pluss a control room with banks of moniters an human veiwers is top of the range an very expensive.

      So a lot go for the cheap solution .

      No working camras so no staff to mopniter them .

      An hope the crims are stupid enough to fall for it.

      An to make sure this info is kept on thr down low .

      If an incident ocours the stock answer is that .

      Oh those were down for maintinace or some bs.

      Its a nailed on cert fogagge new the cctvs were dummys.

      Its called brown paper bag security its cheap an nasty an releys on crimnals stupidity.

      And the trust worthy of those in the know not to pass the info onto crims.

      Same thing when bullion or cash is being moved you can go the armoured car expencive route Securicor ect.

      Wich can advertise high value cargo

      Or go the brown paper parcel route cheap an uses old dillaptetd trucks.

      Non armoured an the theory is crims wont look at them twice as there so decrepit ..

      An that’s how 60 percent of silver gold money ect is transported world wide.

      An high priced art an other valubles use subtrufuge rather than armoured trucks an armed gaurds.

    • ay2z says:

      And very possibly, the hype on all the burglaries and alleged suspects, wasn’t what was being told. Not every resident knew about burglaries. Not all the ‘suspects’ were doing anything suspicious, but in the mind of fogen.

      But must admit the name ‘Colabria’ as in Colabria Cove, was indeed ripe with suspicion, at least for a NW person who used movie quotes for his story. Colabria (sp?) was the name of the crime family in the ‘Goodfellas’ movie, and in the true story of the crime families surrounding Henry Hill.

      No wonder fogen was suspicious and afraid!! 😉 The name says it all, ot small time, but mega big time moved in next to them!!!

  8. Trained Observer says:

    While the world focuses on A-Rod, I remain fixated on Fogen and where he’ll turn up next.

    Perhaps the professor or other attorneys on board here can address:

    Presumably at some point O’Mara and West need to capitalize on their fame/infamy to so snag other paying clients or gigs, which means they’ll no longer be at Fogen’s 24/7 beck and call.

    Do normal clients (not to mention psychopaths) with long-term daily relatonships with their attorneys often have trouble loosening ties, the daily check-ins, etc. and getting on with their lives?

    Is it likely Fogen will have difficulty with breaking it off, and somehow feel a sense of abandonment? (I must admit that I certainly hope so.)

    IOW, how likely is it that Fogen will make a pest of himself with his former legal team to a point where they’ll be changing their phone numbers?

    • MichelleO says:

      Texas looks like a good home for him and the family. I bet this is where they’ll end up next. He can show off his guns to one and all and take satisfaction knowing that he can participate have a gun-fight whenever the need arises. They’ll all slap him on the back down there. As a matter of fact, whenever I hear especially egregious racist cases, I always wonder whether it happened in Florida or Texas. Well, he already had his famous kill in Florida. Texas will be his home now.

      • Judy75201 says:

        I’d love to encounter him here.

      • roderick2012 says:

        MichelleO: Texas looks like a good home for him and the family. I bet this is where they’ll end up next.

        Maybe Piglet will run into that black lady who killed the homeless guy at the Houston gas station.

        Hopefully she will be quicker on the draw than Piglet.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I can hardly wait until West and OM are focused elsewhere and the world doesn’t revolve around Z-fam any more. I would think that Fogen and Fogen Jr. will have some trouble coming down off the infamy high.

  9. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    “insane Support for ‘Stand Your Ground’ Laws by Jonathan Capehart (Aug. 5, 2013)

    >According to the jury instructions read by Judge Debra Nelson, “If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.”
    Notice how the SYG law and the jury instructions for a case that didn’t invoke it are nearly identical? That’s because, as Marc Caputo of the Miami Herald wrote last month, “Stand Your Ground is standard self defense in Florida.” Kendall Coffey, former U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Florida, has called the SYG law a “license to kill.” For many people, especially black people, Zimmerman’s acquittal was proof of this.

    • Yorazigo says:

      In my mind this sentence is a key to GZ’s guilt under SYG:

      “If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be……”

      For two reasons:

      1) Following and stalking a child IS A CRIME
      2) GZ was NOT attacked, he was lying

      • Xena says:


        For two reasons:

        1) Following and stalking a child IS A CRIME
        2) GZ was NOT attacked, he was lying

        Yes, along with the fact that GZ is not deputized law enforcement with authority to follow anyone, and had been told by police dispatch “We don’t need you to do that.”

        GZ deliberately and voluntarily got out of his truck to follow a kid who ran for the purpose of not letting him get away. IMO, that is a violation of Trayvon’s civil rights. Trayvon had the right to run from a man who appeared creepy and could be a pervert.

        After shooting him, GZ got on Trayvon’s back. That is also a violation of Trayvon’s civil rights because GZ is not a deputized anything with authority to restrain anyone. His last action upon the person of Trayvon, indicates the purpose of his first action in following Trayvon. It all adds up to GZ taking unofficial authority over a kid who ran from him.

  10. KateW says:

    Professor, there was an article posted about a Jackson County Clerk, Sharon Synder, who was fired for giving an inmate’s sister a copy of a “publicly available document”. This document or how to write one properly allowed the inmate to be granted the DNA evidence in his case to be tested.

    So I ask you Professor, where can inmates or family members or friends assisting inmates, find proper forms or templates on how to write and specifically ask for what is needed for their case? I suppose it is gives people an idea how to construct a proper/formal letter. There are models out there on how to write business proposals or grants. So is there a place to find how a letter should be properly written by an inmate to request certain things.

  11. ay2z says:

    (not a damn@#! thing to do with law (unless petitions are needed to make this illegal!!)

    Canadians, whites, male persons, caggage rolls and polka enthusiasts, forgive me!!

    • ay2z says:

      “Cabbage Rolls and Coffee…….MMM…MMM good!”

      • Yorazigo says:

        Love this, ay2z! Love to polka. Reminded me of a night years ago when my husband and I went with some friends to a “polka” night at Polish-American Club. Music was ALL polka, ALL night. We had a blast, but my head was hurting at the end from the beat and stomping on the wooden floor by a couple of hundred people for hours!

  12. ay2z says:

    Found a personal questionaire, from Jane Elliott’s website.

    I suspect racism is only a symptom of the easiest form to ID, of racism, defining race by colour or appearance generally. There’s other forms of what virtually the same as racism, but interracial ‘segregation’ of one racial group to another, even geographically related, but culturally, physically segregated, tolerated but never for intermarriage. There are xenophobic cultures so closed for centuries, that integration with immigrants from another ‘country’ or ‘region’ is today, still nationally frowned upon. The protectionism is long standing from isolation, natural and imposed through restricted trade relations until the modern era. Biases are there, ‘racism’ is lacking, but identical. (immigrants today, can find work, but for women, it’s the club scene, with expressions of the outside culture in music and dance entertainment, for example. But the girls are also there for other reasons).

    Somehow, we have to get to the core of what we, as human beings are really all about.

    What gz’s parents said to Walters (heard the full interview, it’s on Youtuve), was that ‘we’ (parents, near and extended family members) are not racist and that gz was never ‘taught to be racist’, therefore gz is not racist.

    A son can make up his own mind, and have his own biases separate from parents, maybe he sees himself as superior, controlled (mother says always in public, gz, her sons, are always ‘controlled, suggesting this is learned from the parents’). Maybe he is making up for his own feelings of inadequacy or is just playing this card, like Ariel Castro and Casey Anthony, to be seenas Castro said “I am a very emotional person”. Therefore, not a psychopath, not narcissist, not anti-social, not a deviant.

    This is the questionaire

    • ay2z says:

      Instructions for the questionaire and follow-up link for clarification on the answers.

      Typical Statements

      Put an “X” before those statements that represent your present beliefs or an “O” before those that represent previously held beliefs.

      Once you have completed the exercise, please refer to the Clarification To The Typical Statements page.

      Clarification To The Typical Statements page is here.

    • aussie says:

      Ah, I get it. They never taught him to be racist. So he learned all by himself. So did juniya. And then Papa Z learned if from his sons????

      Or s he saying his “book” hasn’t anything racist in it?

      Or is just accusing a whole other race of being racist count as fair comment, not as racism?

    • riisey007 says:

      He is a nutcase and they know it. Zimmerman is an equal opportunity racist. You would think with his uncle Jesus Christ testifying for him that the whole family loves everybody. I thought he would brak out in an old negro spiritual upon him answering the question about Zimmermans screams. I found all of them to be disgusting opportunist. Now the family is saying let’s stay in the news so that we can get even more money out of the fools that made my son a hero. Ugh!! this family!

    • Xena says:


      her sons, are always ‘controlled, suggesting this is learned from the parents’).

      She used the word “composed,” and I thought about doing a video of GZ’s NEN call and then testimony from trial about those words demonstrating ill-will and hate, ending along the lines of “Now we understand. You can call a stranger names, referring to him in the plural coupled with profanity, as long as you are “composed.”

      O’Mara took his lesson from Mama Zim, believing it’s not what you say, but how you say it. Therefore, GZ can call one person “assholes” and “f’ing coons” because he was “composed” whereas O’Mara painted John Guy’s use of the same words as screaming.

      GZ joins a list of other non-Black men who have murdered Black male teens and been acquitted. “These assholes. They always get away.” (And, I’m composed when saying that.)

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I was totally disgusted by OM’s posturing about that. You can calmly spout your hatred, but it’s still hatred.

  13. Drew says:

    Also like a message board, it would be cool if we had a variety of sections / topics, where those who want to keep talking Zimmertits can do so, while life goes on elsewhere.

    But all this is more about the “community” stuff, how we interact. As far as the content, I think it’s great and the prof continues to be spot on.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      There are many blogs that offer a variety of sections and topics. Sometimes blog get Too Big for their own good. I like that this is Fred Leatherman’s Law Blog. Period.
      The “Law” is a fairly large and inclusive topic. I’m interested in conversations about Law.
      I’m with fauxmcoy and agree that this is not a Trayvon Martin site, exclusively. There are a lot of legal issues and ideologies that can be discussed.

      • Drew says:

        I didn’t mean that in terms of expanding the site and diluting the message / purpose of it.

        I was talking about having separate sections in terms of organization, so that threads about Jordan Davis or anything else didn’t turn into more Trayvon stuff. The Trayvon stuff could be discussed in one spot, other cases somewhere else, open threads somewhere else.

  14. Drew says:

    With respect to the status of the site, I guess what I should have said last night, explicitly, was that I’m still far too upset by the racist trial / verdict to fully “move on”, and having threads devolve into more Zim-bashing and hand-wringing is fine by me, for now.

    I like the direction that The Prof is taking things in general, and lord knows there are and will be many more murder victims similar to TM and Jordan Davis. Plenty of bullshit to keep us going in the long run.

    I wish there was a way to see specific posters’ posts, like on a message board. But that would require major changes I would guess.

    • Xena says:

      @Drew. Word Press blogs have Themes, and the owner is limited to what the Theme provides. Blogs were never intended to be forums with sections. They provide categories. The Contempt Theme used here provides for categories on the right-side menu. Other Themes have a category search.

      To set up a Word Press blog with sections requires “pages” rather than “posts.” Pages do not allow for meta tagging and essentially have to be placed on a menu for visitors to find.

      Word Press provides one Theme that they recommend for use as chat or sections for discussion. I use that for the private chat section of my blog. It is not organized into sections — we don’t use it for that purpose. Comments are immediately posted — no need to refresh.

  15. LBTG says:

    The Professor asks:
    “Does anyone have any recommendations regarding what we can do to improve this site?”

    I’ve pondered over this so I’ll summarize. The site has changed over time. In the beginning the focus was on legal topics related to the fogen trial. We became informed enough so that throughout the trial, we were background coaches saying to the prosecution: “Stand up and Object!”

    After the trial, we grieved and mulled over “What went wrong?” I realized that our justice system is very imperfect in this case. Justice was trashed for the Martin family via juror bias. I couldn’t believe what MOM & West got by with – done to avoid embarrassment for the SPD or avoid endless appeals? The Martin family cannot get justice in a civil case either. If civil trial has be held in Sanford area with Seminole County jurors, the Martin family cannot prevail..

    The Justice system has never been imperfect: The 3 lads from Mississippi with one on death row – someone had to pay. They were released through the efforts of many people. “The Innocence Project is a national litigation and public policy dedicated to exonerating wrongfully convicted individuals through DNA testing and reforming the criminal justice system to prevent future injustice.”

    Then suddenly Frog Gravy appeared. I thought WTF? “Object! Relevance.” It was time to change direction, but where. The Dunn trial was discussed. We finally realized that race was a very important part of why fogen was “Not Guilty”, but not innocent. Many whites cannot see how race impacted the “Not Guilty” verdict.

    Now the question:
    “Does anyone have any recommendations regarding what we can do to improve this site?”

    I’d like to go back to legal topics again – becoming more informed. SYG law will be revisited in Florida. Is there a way to educate people and transform the laws & justice system. Would welcome topics that would be of interest to other attorneys/lawyers to join in the discussion and get their input. What is the difference between a lawyer & an attorney.

    I really appreciate our informed discussions; and that you’ve kept out the people who add nothing but hateful comments.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      Good Morning, LBGT.
      A couple of questions for you. You said ” Many whites cannot see how race impacted the “Not Guilty” verdict.” Do you mean Many Whites anywhere in the world, or in the US, or here at this blog?
      It seems to me that Crane-Station’s Frog Gravy diary is very much on topic for a law blog. And, considering how much effort it takes to be part of her husband’s website, er, excuse me, ahem, I meant Community, I think that C-S could post damn near anything she wants here.
      And, finally, I realize that your handle is an abbreviation of your former name, but it looks alot like LGBT, if you know what I mean. It’s kind of confusing, is all.
      These are my sincere questions, so I hope they are not taken as snark or meanness.

      • LBTG says:

        Asked about which whites. The ones I encounter: in the letters to the editor in local newspaper, relatives, friends, articles & comments on the internet, Governor Scott et al not realizing the racial impact of SYG law.

        LBTG is an abbreviation of my business website name. I started to notice that our website came up in google searches – that pointed to websites I comment on about controversial topics. I comment on topics that have nothing to do with our website. I could have changed my name to anything, but I had already established a presence here. Guess I could change it again.

        Of course Crane can write anything she wants, whenever she wants. I noticed that there were few comments on Frog Gravy, and Crane puts so much work into these Frog Gravy articles..

    • Xena says:


      What is the difference between a lawyer & an attorney.

      In the UK, and once also in America, a lawyer was someone who advocates in court. An attorney was someone who handled legal paperwork but never actually argued a case. Some never actually saw the inside of a courtroom. They handled property sales, Trusts, wills, incorporation of businesses — stuff like that. The two titles are now used interchangeably in the US.

    • roderick2012 says:

      Then suddenly Frog Gravy appeared. I thought WTF? “Object! Relevance.”

      I don’t completely disagree but that was a disrespectful way of stating your displeasure???

      I have always been taught that if you want to complain just keep it to yourself especially when you’re in another person’s home.

      With that said I like reading Frog Gravy because it shows the corruption of the justice system along with the prison industrial complex in all it’s putrid rot.

      • fauxmccoy says:


        i agree about the inclusion of frog gravy — it is right on track with many of our discussions and a first hand account of fred’s wife to boot. it is entirely relevant.

        although many people showed up here when the professor began writing about trayvon, myself included albeit in the very beginning, it is critical to remember that this is not a ‘trayvon martin blog’. when i was new and excited to find this place, i went through the archives from the beginning because i liked what i saw.

        i know people are hurting about this verdict, we all are. i think that making this a blog solely about trayvon however would be a grave injustice to all the grave injustices in this world. if this were to become a one issue blog, it will lose relevance gradually over time and i think we all have a higher calling.

      • aussie says:

        I actually first found this blog through a cross-posting on Frog Gravy. So it’s full circle, for me.

        An inside look at “life” in jail is very relevant to a law blog, I think, and especially to one where the direction now seems to be about young men who get to spend too much time in jail for no good reason…. which was Crane’s situation too.

      • ay2z says:

        A little tolerance. This is a wonderful place, but why limit the topics to one interest or another, because in the big picture, it’s about humanity.

        What about Hanford, or the bees? Those are two critical issues for human survival, and both impact North America in a major, non-political and non-recoverable way.

        (No– Hanford has NOTHING TO DO WITH NUCLEAR POWER or any related ‘power supply, not oil, not electricity, not coal fired plants, not dams, it’s not even close, never has been)

        I have to admit I have not been reading the Frog Gravy, not because I will not, nor have a lack of interest and am looking forward to being able to. It’s personal and not because of the topic, it’s because I’ve recently lost the ability to read a lot, and have not even been keeping up on all the topics except to comment after scanning very lightly, on topics I am familiar with.

        I disagree that we all have to agree on everything that is importyant to Fred and Crane, that’s what drives this site, don’t want to read a thread? Don’t. But there is a common thread in much of this, and overcoming ignorance is one of those.

        For me at this moment, the light grey text is a challenge, but that doesn’t mean I need to have it changed, it’s not a forever thing, and I can copy and paste into a WP or simple text, and alter for my own needs, again, should be temporary.

        We don’t need to go on about gz ad naseum, but that is the easy way. The hard part is continuing to fight the serious and sometimes not so widespread biases that exist.

        The first part is bringing people out of the ignorance. For example, about Hanford– this environmental disaster would not be limited to the lower Columbia River and the populations downstream. Far from it. Los Angeles, San Francisco, Mexico, the gulf stream current, is downstream too. (anyone ever find Washington grown red delicious in your southern state A & P or Piggly Wiggly? What about plutonium innoculated apples? That is, if any bees are left to pollinate the crops.

        Not affect the readers on this blog? Ok, well racism against blacks does not affect me either, not directly. Not MY problem, hey I don’t care if THEY want equality, not MY problem, THEY want to all be gangsta’s, not MY problem (Caution– this is a BIG snark to make a point). I’m not in prison, so not MY problem, innocent people don’t experience prison in the greatest democracies in the world?

        Who ever said democracy is easy? Who ever said humanity, eithics, and choices are easy? Who ever said facing one’s own learned biases, is easy?

        Frog Gravy is not easy. It’s not pretty. It’s about individuals, it’s about politics, it’s about the lack or and need for, human compassion, it’s about one person treating another person with humanity. These stores aren’t international headlines, they are not relegated to Iran, or Bosnia or in ancient Rome or certain cultures.

        Television shows are easy. Media watching is extremely easy, fast channel, site flipping to land on the sexiest story or headline, is easy. We do not discuss easy topics here all the time, but each and every topic is important to all of us.

        I stand corrected a little on this, the Schmenge Brothers are really not critical for any reason, other than for us to enjoy light time, to laugh, or chuckle or do the polka,

        • ay2z says:

          And as aussie points out, a little reminder, that this is indeed a “Law Blog”,

          So I’ll give a thumbs up to the Bees, and the pending disaster of Hanford— both facing political chalenges and scientific challenges, but for Handord, the law is critical, federal law that allows chemical companies to oversee their own clean ups. And for the bees, new documentaries show that pesticides are a major problem causing this bee decline. Surprise, — blame unknown things, makes good chemical company sense..

    • degraveegmailcom says:

      14 year old kid shot in the head by cops in new york.
      Youngest victim to date.
      Cops say they have video of the victim shooting at people.
      They are not showing this video.
      Aunt says he did not have a weapon.
      The blaming the victim is in full swing.
      He murdered before,he shot at the police etc.

      • ladystclaire says:

        This not guilty Fogen verdict has just told the country and the world, that it’s open season on black males in this country. there have been two more cases in where else, Florida. one AA male was shot and killed because he had a AIR RIFLE IN HIS HAND and, another one went to his mother’s car, to get a cigarette and, he was shot and killed.

        This country is returning to the days of a mixture of the wild west and Jim Crow. my son drives for United Van Lines and, his job takes him all over the country and, I have gotten to the place to where I don’t want him going to Florida at all.

        I’ve been to Florida one time and, I will never set foot in that place again! some people talk as if this racism is confined only to the south but, that’s not so. when you have an association in Ohio, sending a known child murderer money to buy more guns and some sort of security system, well I consider them to be just as racist as any other southern city/town. as I’ve said before, I never knew that Florida was the way it is.

        • Yorazigo says:


          I visited dear friends in Florida almost yearly for many years – loved the weather, visited Disney, Epcot, Bush Gardens, beaches, enjoyed meeting friends of my friends,etc. Eight years ago I decided to move here, my husband had died, lost my job, and an early retirement here was a financially good option (plus no more cold & shoveling snow). Wasn’t long after I moved that I noticed trucks driving around with Confederate flags flying on them and rifles in the back windows. I thought I moved back in a time machine……

  16. Trained Observer says:

    FINALLY, it’s a small step —

    MIAMI (Reuters) – Florida lawmakers will hold hearings this fall on the state’s “Stand Your Ground” self-defense law, which has become a lightning rod for criticism following the acquittal of George Zimmerman in the shooting death of unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin.

    The announcement on Friday by Will Weatherford, the speaker of Florida’s House of Representatives, marked the biggest concession yet by the state’s Republican leaders to protesters’ demands for a top-to-bottom review of the law, which allows people in fear of serious injury to use deadly force to defend themselves rather than retreat.

    Since Zimmerman’s acquittal on July 13, Martin’s grieving parents, backed by African-American civic leaders, celebrities, students and political figures, including President Barack Obama and Attorney General Eric Holder, have all said the Stand Your Ground law needs to be re-examined.

    Weatherford, in an opinion column published in the Tampa Tribune, said he had asked Representative Matt Gaetz, a fellow Republican who chairs the House Criminal Justice Subcommittee, to lead the hearings. Weatherford did not set a date for the hearings or say how long they would last.

    “Across Florida, representatives are receiving calls, letters, visits and emails from constituents with diverse opinions on ‘Stand Your Ground,’” Weatherford said. “Passions are high, but every person has the right to express their views on this matter of great importance.”

    Advocates of the law, the first of its kind in the country and now copied in more than 20 other states, say violent crime has fallen since it was enacted.

    But critics see the self-defense law as emblematic of racial bias and unequal justice in America, since some studies have shown that defense claims made under the law are far more likely to be successful when the victim is black.

    Two of the six jurors in the Zimmerman case have said the Stand Your Ground law left them with no option but to acquit him.

    “Our evaluation of its (the law’s) effectiveness should be guided by objective information, not by political expediency,” Weatherford wrote.

    “Does the law keep the innocent safer? Is it being applied fairly? Are there ways we can make this law clearer and more understandable?” he asked.

    Most U.S. voters support the “Stand Your Ground” laws, although the question of whether to retreat or use deadly force in self defense divides Americans along gender, racial and political lines, a national Quinnipiac University poll found on Friday.

    The poll found that a strong majority of white voters and men support the laws, while black voters generally oppose them and women are almost evenly divided.

    “It’s a critical first step,” Phillip Agnew, who heads a group of young demonstrators staging a sit-in outside Governor Rick Scott’s office in a bid to change the law, told the Tampa Bay Times newspaper.

    • bettykath says:

      Let’s hope it isn’t just a ploy to get the protestors to go home. Damn, it’s too much cynicism for me to have first thing Monday morning.

      • ay2z says:

        One article about the hearings, the person interviewed said he expected ‘not one coma’ to be changed. (one of the local Orlando stat sites)

      • a2nite says:

        I think it is a moldy crumb. The evil RW racist R’s are good at providing them.

        They won’t change anything because it makes racist white people feel safer. Win-win for the evil Rs so that they can get elected again.

  17. Xena says:

    A statement made by Gladys Zimmerman to Barbara Walters and how Jane Elliott would respond.

    • bettykath says:

      Gladys is an excellent example of a racist in denial. She probably doesn’t even see in herself or others in her family just how bigoted they are.

      • sparger says:

        gladys isn’t in denial.She is just trying to make her crazy family look good. Did Barbara asked the old man about his book naming all the black racist in America?

      • Xena says:

        @bettykath. I agree.

        • groans says:

          Or, Gladys Z. might just be a flat-out liar.

          One thing I DO know, though, is that absent Barbara Walters’ make-up or touch up crews (e.g., as viewed during the trial), Gladys’ facial wrinkles reveal that she has spent most of her life frowning and/or scowling. But, of course, that would not be inconsistent with being either a racist in denial or a flat-out liar. It’s just a non-sequitur.

      • ay2z says:

        BettyKath, yes, denial for a purpose, their purposes. Gladys, however, may wish to decolorize, de-ethnicize, de-individualize, de-luteify, de-identicize, her own self and her pigmentation by marrying white, having her ‘Georgi’, marry white, having white grandbabies.

        Wait…. she’s not worked very well to adopt one of the many regiional accents found in the USA from Virginia to Texas to Florida to replace her heavy Peruvian Spanish accent.

        Fogen saw colour, he saw that he did not want to be identified as ‘white’, he wanted to have his own identity with only the genes he has, from Peruvian and the excuse of not being able to be racist because of some photo showing an alleged black grandfather.

        But he’s not white, fogen argues in the media emphatically through all his spokespersons, therefore he even denies his own father, if Robert is even his biological father, and seems he is.

        If spawn gz is not white and if Robert Zimmerman Sr is white,
        then Robert Zimmerman is being denied his identity and his race is being denied, by the colorblind Zimmerman pack.

        Xena, incredible reveal in your video, thanks.

        • cielo62 says:

          Ay2z- my father maintained a heavy accent all of his life. It’s not something you “adopt”. I take pride in being as accent free as possible. No Texan drawl for me!

      • crazy1946 says:

        We all (not a popular thing to say) are racist to a degree. IMO the key is to not allow it to over ride our good intent or actions. Simply saying one is not a racist then exhibiting racism in action is more prevalent than most people realize…. If you act on the old golden rule, where you treat people as you wish to be treated then your attitude and actions will override your racism in a positive manner….

        • Inaccurate.

          Racism is about power. Not the same as bias, bigotry or prejudice.

          • Drew says:


          • crazy1946 says:

            already been said, While I agree that the goal/use of racism is control (power), I must ask if you consider bias, bigotry or prejudice as equal or more/less damaging in dealing with people?

          • @crazy1946

            I must ask if you consider bias, bigotry or prejudice as equal or more/less damaging in dealing with people?

            Define damaging? People of color, as a matter of survival, must be biased against white people understanding anything about them and devote their energies to making white people feel comfortable.

          • a2nite says:

            @already been said: agreed

          • crazy1946 says:

            already been said, I’m probably kicking the preverbal hornets nest, but when you admit to being biased or bigoted toward me, because of the color of my skin, and indicate that it is acceptable to you, yet if I hold the same bias or bigotry toward you it is unacceptable? Will that attitude bring about change in this country that will put all people on equal footing? Now before you decide to start swinging, please try to accept that those comments were not meant to be disrespectful or anything of the sort…. all I would expect from you is that you don’t judge me by the actions of another person, because I would not do that to you…
            Damaging would be if I inflict mental or physical pain on you by intent. Relationships between people, whether business or personal, require a level of openness and trust in order to be successful.

          • @crazy1946

            …but when you admit…

            Ignoring what people write doesn’t bode well for you.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            Sorry, I did not put spaces between the words of your name.

          • crazy1946 says:

            already been said, Thank you for your time, perhaps some time in the future when you are willing to have a discussion without the simple one line attempts at insults, we can actually have a discussion. Until that time I shall simply wish you a good evening…

        • a2nite says:

          Plenty of people are bigots, myself included. If you’re black, it is about self-preservation.

        • Xena says:


          We all (not a popular thing to say) are racist to a degree.

          Based on experiences, trust issues, and responses, yes. For instance, a White person who insults Blacks with racial slurs and gets insults (without racial slurs) in return will call Blacks racists. It’s because hatred got a response and the hatred is associated with race.

          A White person robbed by a Black person might develop an issue trusting other Blacks. They see the race rather than the cause of the robbery as the problem. (Not saying robbing is right under any circumstance but it has a foundation that did not begin with Blacks.)

          IMO, there is a difference between prejudice and racial bigotry. Prejudice is overcome by knowledge. Prejudice does not seek to intentionally harm others. Bigotry is mostly rooted in beliefs of superiority, seeks to deprive others and is violent in thoughts, words, and actions.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:


          • Xena says:

            @yahtc. Yes, and yes. 🙂 It’s basic human nature and most people mature so that their experiences do not build brick walls of hate.

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena- maturity is the key. Being open to mature regardless of age. Being here has opened my eyes in ways I wasn’t even aware they were shut. Because of the trust I have for folks here, I can explore my assumptions. Civility is very important to not hurt people’s feelings.

          • Xena says:


            Being open to mature regardless of age. Being here has opened my eyes in ways I wasn’t even aware they were shut.

            Being on Yahoo comments opened my eyes. I had no idea that people can be so mean-spirited.

          • @Xena

            We all (not a popular thing to say) are racist to a degree.

            Based on experiences, trust issues, and responses, yes. For instance, a White person who insults Blacks with racial slurs and gets insults (without racial slurs) in return will call Blacks racists. It’s because hatred got a response and the hatred is associated with race.


            Saying “everyone” is a racist is the same as saying “no one” is a racist. It is a way to minimize the attention to power.

          • Xena says:

            @already been said. It must be hard being perfect.

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena- LOL! Already been is probably good friends with god.

          • @Xena

            It must be hard being perfect.

            I’ve been writing and studying this for over 20 years. It’s not an accident that you don’t know what racism is.

          • Xena says:

            @already been said.

            I’ve been writing and studying this for over 20 years.

            Then you should have more to say than “wrong.” Also, while I can appreciate anyone writing and studying on any subject, it’s the experience that really counts.

          • cielo62 says:

            Already been- is it an accident you are rude and a jerk? If not, please become aware of your condescension.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:


            Have you ever had white racism directed at you?

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            Sorry I did not put spaces between the words of your name.

          • @Xena

            Then you should have more to say than “wrong.”



            Saying “everyone” is a racist is the same as saying “no one” is a racist. It is a way to minimize the attention to power.


            Also, while I can appreciate anyone writing and studying on any subject, it’s the experience that really counts.

            Meaning and experience are not interchangeable.


            It’s not an accident that you don’t know what racism is.

          • Xena says:

            @already been said.

            I get it now. Whatever is said receives a one-liner response from you because you already know it’s already been said.

            I now join others in ignoring you.

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena- LOL! Welcome to the club!

          • Xena says:


            Xena- LOL! Welcome to the club!

            Thank you. 🙂

          • cielo62 says:

            Already been- damn you ARE a jerk!

          • @You all have thoughtful comments

          • groans says:

            @ ABS, re:

            Meaning and experience are not interchangeable.


            Look: “Experience and meaning are not interchangeable.” See?



            BTW, I’ve spent twenty-FIVE years writing and studying that; therefore, I MUST be right! Right? 😆

          • cielo62 says:

            Groans- well MY experiences are deeper, so Nyah, Nyah!!

          • @crazy1946

            already been said, Thank you for your time, perhaps some time in the future when you are willing to have a discussion without the simple one line attempts at insults, we can actually have a discussion. Until that time I shall simply wish you a good evening…


            I get it now. Whatever is said receives a one-liner response from you because you already know it’s already been said.

            I now join others in ignoring you.


            Meaning and experience are not interchangeable.


            Look: “Experience and meaning are not interchangeable.” See?



            BTW, I’ve spent twenty-FIVE years writing and studying that; therefore, I MUST be right! Right? xD

            That’s right. Exercise that WHITE POWER. You don’t have to attempt to understand what people say. If they don’t do exactly what you say or make sure you’re not inconvenienced in any way, FUCK ‘EM.

            WHITE POWER!

          • cielo62 says:

            Already been- that’s funny to say to folks on here who have no desire to start a race war. Why do you?

          • crazy1946 says:

            already been said:

            “That’s right. Exercise that WHITE POWER. You don’t have to attempt to understand what people say. If they don’t do exactly what you say or make sure you’re not inconvenienced in any way, FUCK ‘EM.

            WHITE POWER!”

            Too bad….. When…. no…. listen…. why…. understand….
            conversation? hmmmm……

          • cielo62 says:

            Crazy/ trolls need no reason nor logic. Just jerkdom.

          • crazy1946 says:

            cielo62, I don’t think he is necessarily a troll, perhaps it is that I simply fail to understand the two word paragraphs that he uses to express his thoughts. Maybe at some point in the future he will return and explain to we non elite members of society his line of reasoning in simple terms that we can comprehend……

          • cielo62 says:

            Crazy- you are a gentle soul. I just don’t like condescending jerks. Maybe he has some legitimate points, but his tone will tune folks out very quickly. I didn’t like the way he spoke to you, for example. And you’re one of the nicest people here!

          • crazy1946 says:

            cielo62, Thank you for the kind words, I try to treat people like I would want to be treated….

    • ay2z says:

      Thanks for the intro to Jane Elliot too, Xena.

      Will seek more.

      • Xena says:

        @ay2z. Jane Elliot is wonderful, IMO. You might want to check out the documentary. I wish we could clone her like 100 times over.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Xena, your link referred to this article:


        We are constantly being told that we don’t have racism in this country anymore, but most of the people who are saying that are white. White people think it isn’t happening because it isn’t happening to them.

        Invariably, when I do a presentation anywhere in this country, the issue of affirmative action comes up. People say that white males are the ones who are being discriminated against in this country today. So I say, “Fine. OK. Will every white person in this room who would like to spend the rest of his or her life being treated, discussed, and looked upon as we treat, discuss, and look upon people of color, generally speaking, in this society, please stand?” And I watch. And wait. And the only sounds in the room are those made by people of color as they turn in their seats to see how many white folks are standing. Not one white person stands. And I just let them sit there. Then I say, “Do you know what you just admitted? You just admitted that you know that it’s happening, you know that it’s ugly, and you know that you don’t want it for you. So why are you so willing to accept it for others? The ultimate obscenity is that you deny that it’s happening.”

        I think white people aren’t aware that racism isn’t just wearing white hoods and burning crosses. It’s also fixing the system so that black votes don’t get counted. It’s refusing to open the polling places in precincts where most of the eligible voters are people of color. It’s outlawing affirmative action at the state level even though it has proven successful. It’s building more prisons than we build schools and guaranteeing that they will be filled by targeting young men of color with things like the “three strikes” legislation in California, and the DWB — “driving while black.” These are problems encountered by young black men all over this country. It’s the fact that there are more children attending segregated schools in the U.S. today than there were previous to Brown vs. Board of Education. It’s white flight and red-lining by financial institutions. It’s television programming that portrays people of color as villains and white people as their victims. It’s ballot-security systems, which are used to intimidate minority voters and so result in the very activities which they are supposedly designed to prevent.

        • Xena says:

          @yahtc. Jane Elliott understands.

          Regarding affirmative action, it provides jobs for minorities, but not necessarily the job they were hired to perform.

          An attorney had me assist him on a case where his Black client was hired as an accountant for a construction firm. The firm had several government contracts that required them to comply with affirmative action.

          The supervisor of the department allowed the other staff (all White) to delegate work to her. It consisted of proof reading data entry input and filing. This went on for 3 months. The supervisor brought in a person through a temp agency to do the accounting work.

          She finally met with the supervisor and asked when she would begin her accounting duties and the supervisor replied “never.” The company’s defense was that she was unqualified and they were trying to keep her on-board by delegating other duties to her. That defense failed because she never performed any accounting duties to give them an impression that she was unqualified, and all of her prior experience and references confirmed her qualifications.

          That in fact, she had more higher education and experience than the supervisor of the accounting department.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            Shaking my head…..what is wrong with these people?!

          • Xena says:


            Shaking my head…..what is wrong with these people?!

            It’s their way of rebelling against affirmative action. You should read the Affirmative Action reports of corporations doing business with the government for why they have not hired minorities. It boils down to the excuse, “We do not attract minority applicants because they don’t want to commute to our location.”

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Excellent video, Xena!

      Looks like Jane is doing a lot of good and opening up important conversations about race.

      These are the people who cannot be reached:

  18. crazy1946 says:

    This is off topic, but is related to the Trayvon Martin tragedy. I have asked many times on various blogs that I have posted to down thru the ages the following question: “How is it that your right to bear arms has priority over a child’s right to life”? Some of the answers I have received have been that the 2nd Amendment gives that right to them, some people have told me to read the constitution or read the law books that give them that right! When asked why that Amendment has priority not only over the body of the constitution but also over the Amendments added after that one was made into law, I am often told that “You Simply Do Not Understand The Constitution” or “You Just Hate Guns” or the one that really impresses me the most, “You Don’t Want Me To Have The Power To Overthrow The Liberal Controlled Government”! While I do not hate guns nor do I hate the owners of guns, I just simply do not understand the compelling need to be so fearful of other people that I must walk around pretending to be Rambo to protect mere possessions that soon enough will be of no use to me anyway…..
    Anyone here wish to answer the question of why we need so many guns to defend ourselves from our neighbors and family?

    • Woow! says:

      The funny thing is those people do not know oor understand the constitution. All they know is they have the right to bear arms and no liberal is going to take away that right.

      • crazy1946 says:

        Woow!, I was just going thru some old posts that I have saved from other blogs that I belong (ed) to. One of the most common responses you get in any discussion about guns is “I have the right to “beer” guns an no D*** communist liberal is agoina tak them frum me”! How do you discuss anything with an individual that is of that mind set, much less closed minded attitude? Some people tell you more about their basic self imposed station in life than they realize when they talk about guns and or gun control…. Especially when they think you are talking about hitting a target when you mention gun control……

        • fauxmccoy says:


          the other irony about the self defense/ dagnam gubmint is out ta git me fantasy folks is their willingness to trounce the sections of the constitution that they don’t like. you hear talk about repealing the 14th along with others. even more bizarre to me is that the first amendment is next to meaningless with the “god’n’gun” crowd. they have only 1 religion that they wish to ‘protect’ if not institutionalize and would be perfectly fine with a national language (that being the queen’s english, of course, even if their use of it is questionable). i realize i am painting with a broad brush, but i’m sure you get my point.

          all in all, it’s a relatively small sub-set of our population and one destined to dwindle. although i have spent more time than i care to admit arguing the constitution with these folks, ultimately, it is about as satisfying as arguing with a fence post. i have found that the less i engage, the more content i am.

        • aussie says:

          Gun control is HOLDING IT WITH BOTH HANDS.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      @crazy — i probably cannot answer that question to your satisfaction, because i do not fall under the ‘we need the 2nd amendment to protect the rest of them’ delusional camp.

      i own one .38 revolver that my dad gave me 30 years ago when i graduated from high school and one hunting rifle which is a collectors item (winchester .30-.30, 1967 canadian centennial model). i keep them locked in my home because i have children, but do take them both when i am camping. i tend to camp in areas where there is threat from bear and mountain lion and just feel better having this available to me, i also have them when i am riding the family range land in utah for the same reason. if nothing poses a direct threat to me, my family or our livestock, they are not used. i have never needed the winchester, but am unwilling to traverse the locations i do without it. i did bring out the .38 when my home was being broken into in the relatively small city in which i live, even then, it was not used because the sheriff’s arrived before the lock broke on my house.

      the people you are encountering have issues. they have fantasies of an armed insurrection against the government and their responses simply are not rational so cannot be explained. no matter what kind of arsenal they may have amassed, it cannot compete with F-16s and armored personnel carriers, to think that they can compete with the largest, best equipped military known to mankind is delusional. expecting a rational response from a deluded source seems hopeless to me.

      • crazy1946 says:


        ” i probably cannot answer that question to your satisfaction”.

        You did not need to attempt to answer that question to “my” satisfaction. But your answer was well reasoned and made more sense than most! I do not have any problem with a person owning a gun, nor do I have a problem with the way you use yours with one exception, and that would be the use of lethal force against a mere burglar or thief. To protect your own physical self or that of a family member, yes… To kill to prevent someone from stealing or taking a possession, no… Of course that is only my opinion, and does not have any more bearing on the course of events not controlled by me than that…. I have a neighbor that actually does not understand that the weapons he has hoarded will do very little other than slow down the “government forces” that he thinks are coming to take us all and place us in FEMA camps. I suppose if it was not for fear these people would have no direction at all in their lives….

        • fauxmccoy says:

          @crazy — i would never use lethal force to defend ‘stuff’, including my vehicle. there is a reason i carry insurance, after all.

          if someone breaks into my house at 3 am, i have to assume they intend to do harm and will act accordingly. i’m not going to negotiate under such circumstances or even bother asking what the intentions are. the person was warned that i was calling 911, i showed him the gun through my door window and he continued to attempt to break down the door.

          you may disagree, but the laws in most states will allow for anyone to use lethal force if one’s home is invaded. it is not burglary, but a felony and should be considered a threat. that is the ‘castle doctrine’ which has been a basic concept in common law for hundreds of years.

          • crazy1946 says:

            fauxmccoy, Would I disagree? This is what I wrote above, ” To protect your own physical self or that of a family member, yes… To kill to prevent someone from stealing or taking a possession, no… ” After that statement, it would be difficult to find a way to disagree with your position in this circumstance….

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @crazy — thanks for the clarification. it means a lot to me. at the time that situation occurred, i was very pregnant and had a 2 year old in the house who i locked into a closet for her own protection, because i knew that i for one was armed and did not need to be distracted or concerned about her getting in harms way.

            if someone is busting down my door at 3 am — i cannot know if they intend to grab my stereo and run, or my 2 year old. i do know that i am not willing to take any chances. the desire to protect my toddler as well as the baby in my belly was all that i cared about.

      • aussie says:

        I’ve also seen it in print that everyone being armed is the ONLY reason China doesn’t attack the USA.

        Apart from them then not being able to collect the trillions $ the US owes them, do they seriously think the armed eddjits will be the ones to repel such an invasion, if it were to happen? China is not in Mexico. Various Government facilities are bound to notice a few million Chinese heading this way, by sea or air, in plenty of time to stop them landing.

        But nope, the existence of gun-lovers is the only thing scaring them out of invading.

        I’m in favour of legalising drugs, but maybe whatever these guys are on should remain illegal and a lot harder to get.

    • bettykath says:

      The fear is of the government. I don’t identify at all with the gun nuts who spout the 2nd amendment. But (yes, that qualifier) the government has pretty much eviscerated the other nine amendments. Nothing you communicate to others is safe from governments surveillance. The meta-data they collect from telephone calls, emails, snail mail, web surfing, and whatever else they collect, can pretty much tell who you are, who you communicate with, what you buy, what your interests are. Video cameras and spy satellites and gps devices (cell phones and cars) can track you where ever you go. The lives of whistleblowers are destroyed while those who have been doing wrong get promotions. As so many here are aware, the 14th amendment guaranteeing equal protection under the law doesn’t apply unless you’re white and well off financially. The President makes war anywhere he wants without Congress first declaring war. (I consider a drone strike on a non-combatant state to be a declaration of war, e.g. Yemen, Pakistan) The President can have people anywhere, including US citizens, killed without due process. That’s their real fear, the government that supposed to be “by the people, for the people”.

      There is also the idea that some have that our government should be more like that described in the Articles of Confederation, one where the federal government is only for the common defense and that all states are individually sovereign, free to enact their own laws.

      • bettykath says:

        I contradicted myself. The only one of the original 10 amendments to the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, that is still intact is the 2nd amendment. However, the first 10 aren’t the only amendments that are under attack.

        • crazy1946 says:

          The government has not taken power from our hands, we have willingly given them the power that was guaranteed to us in the constitution. As long as people are willing to just sit back and whine and cry about that loss but remain to complacent to even make the effort to vote, they have the government that they deserve… I have heard some, even on this site, suggest that black people should just leave Seminole County, IMO that is not the way to win a battle (much less a war)! If I won the lottery, I would buy as many vacant houses as that money could buy, in Seminole County and give those house to black families that wanted to actually make a difference in the treatment of all people in that area…. Our votes can make a change happen, but only if we use that right to vote…. Remember the term: Power to the People? We have it, but only if we exercise that power as given by the Constitution…. Ok, off of my soapbox and back under my rock…..

          • bettykath says:

            There certainly is a good amount of complacency but consider that the rules are made by the Democrat and the Republican parties to their advantage.

            You get to vote for a candidate that’s on the ballot, but you really don’t get to pick who is on the ballot. That is done by the bigwigs in the party.

            Want to form your own party? Again, the rules are made by the two major parties. Those wanting to form a new party have great hurdles to go over in order to get on the ballot. And when that’s done, there are the voters who really like your candidate best but who think that their vote will count only if they vote the “lesser evil” of one of the two major parties.

            And then there’s there gerrymandering of the districts such that the party in power stays in power. Consider that in the most recent election that the Democrats handily won the popular vote but the Republicans won the House b/c of those gerrymandered districts.

            And for what happens if you happen to elect someone who really works for the people rather than march in lock step with corporate owned shills, check out what happened to Cynthia McKinney, twice.

            Want to vote? OK, if you’re AA, you have the opportunity to stand in line for hours and present a special id. If you’re white, you zip right thru.

            Want your vote to count? Check out The companies that provide the new computer voting machines are all privately owned and consider their software and firmware to be proprietary. Only they get to know how the votes are counted and most of them have “back doors” that allow vote flipping, by them. So vote for A, maybe get a receipt that says you voted for A, but don’t be surprised if your vote is counted for B.

            Want to challenge some of this? Take it through the courts? All the way to the Supreme Court? The one that says that corporations are people? Corporations that have life chartered to them by the people but have no heart or soul but then live forever.

            Blood pressure is up. Rant over.

          • crazy1946 says:

            bettykath, We have drifted so far off the intended purpose of the Professors post that I’m going to ask that we continue this discussion at a later date? Thanks for understanding…..

          • bettykath says:

            crazy1945, you started it 🙂

          • crazy1946 says:


            “crazy1945, you started it 🙂 ”

            Yes, I did. However I think that it could grow to the point that it would be too much distraction from the actual point of the professors post…… 😉

          • cielo62 says:

            crazy~ You can’t lead us from under that rock! 🙂 Stay here and fire us up!


          • crazy1946 says:

            bettykath, I keep hearing the argument that the Democrats or the GOP is the problem and you can’t vote for anyone else… Could that be used as an excuse to sit back and let the people in control now remain in control? Do you actually think that the way to change our collective lot in life is to start at the top and change it downward? If you actually want to start change you need to start at the local level. You can make a difference at the bottom and that change will eventually make it to the top… Too many people want political change to come instantly, well they are destined to be continually disappointed because that will not happen, short of a massive rebellion! The government was given a small group of people over a period of time and it will simply take time for us to place our government back into the hands of the common people of this nation….. This is simply my opinion and you may take this opinion and a credit card to your local coffee shop and buy a cup of coffee…. I just hope the credit card has more value than my opinion, or you may be drinking water instead…… 😉

    • Xena says:

      Your comment reminded me of this;

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Did you read Prof article a few days ago on the 14th amendment trumping the 2nd?

      • crazy1946 says:

        Two sides to a story, Yes, I read it, and agree with it completely. However did you ever try to talk to the average 2nd amendment addict? They do not accept that anything could out weigh their right to own and bear their favorite possession (gun aka penis extension..). They can’t understand that I (or many other people) don’t want to take their gun from them, but only wish to stop being the target of said gun…. I suppose the old saying “a car in every garage, and a chicken in every pot” needs (in some people’s opinion) needs to have “and a gun in every hand” added…. I suppose we need to get off this subject, we (I) have drifted far from the Professors intended purpose of this post…..

    • Jasmine says:

      Whenever I hear people saying ‘oh it is to protect myself against the tyrannical government’ all I can think is Drone Strike. The government doesn’t have to use guns against their own citizens. They, we, have the full might of our military. They can bomb us, nuke us, use chemical weapons against us so their little gun will not have the wherewithal to overthrow them,us. For these type of people critical thinking skills must be a rarity.

      • crazy1946 says:

        Jasmine, My off topic post seems to be distracting from the intended purpose of the Professors message to us today. Let’s agree to some time in the future when it is more appropriate to the topic to discuss this in more depth.. Have a great day…

  19. riisey007 says:

    Well I wondered over here from BBC list/ NLME blog. I wondered where everybody travelled too that were once there. It was home for me from the beginning and it gave me comfort especially while the evidence was being released and sifted through. I have enjoyed this blog, I came here in the weeks,days and hours leading up to the trial. Those of us who got tired of arguing truths with ignorant racist or just sheeple to Fox news needed this place in order to feel like you were amongst people who cared. I am so thankful for Caucasion, asian, indian and black people who want to live in peace together, who want to have learn about each other. I am so glad that the good people tend to outweigh the bad and that we are making a lot of efforts to educate one another. This is a great blog. I do home that the outcome of the trial strenghtens and renews our efforts in making peace with one another. I have learned over the years that there are a lot of good people in different race and cultures. I often wish that Dr. Martin Luther king was alive at this time to speak to us and give us peace but sadly he is not with us so therefore we must carry on in a way that he would be so very proud.

  20. pat deadder says:

    Xena Thank you.I finally got your concept of the route of the chase from watching the video.It takes me awhile.

    • Xena says:

      @pat deadder.

      Xena Thank you.I finally got your concept of the route of the chase from watching the video.It takes me awhile.

      You are very welcomed. It makes more sense with Rachel Jeantel’s testimony that Trayvon was by his dad’s house, and GZ saying that he wasn’t following but going in the same direction. In his perverted mind, the same direction was to the back gate and as he told the investigators, he was on RVC when told “We don’t need you to do that.”

      When GZ said “he ran,” it was because he did not see Trayvon enter or cross the intersection.

      Do you remember when Bernie said to the jury that GZ said “When I walked back towards him — then he caught himself and said I saw him coming towards me”? Well, it was both. GZ walked down RVC and saw Trayvon walking in his direction — but Trayvon was going to the front of the house. Rachel said that Trayvon told her he saw the creep again. So, Trayvon turns around and goes back around the corner to the dog walk and subsequently tells Rachel that the creep is behind him and getting closer.

      • Link to source, evidence dump, discovery, etc. mentioning Martin’s lack of house keys and the location of the garage keypad.

        Why didn’t Trayvon get let in through the back door?

        • bettykath says:

          The boy that was there was in his room with headphones on. He wouldn’t have heard Tryvon at the door.

          • pat deadder says:

            bettykath The boy that was there was in his room with headphones on.Yes that’s true but Trayvon could text Chad or phone after he hung up from Rachael.The cell phones vibrate when texts are sent.I think that’s how fogen knew the police were near they had phoned him like he asked but then he knew he was in deep shit because he had Trayvon at gunpoint and Trayvon was screaming in fear so fogen had to shut him up.God the more I think about it the angrier I get and now he’s free’

          • bettykath says:

            Pat, thanks. Chad. I forgot his name.

        • aussie says:

          Besides, he didn’t want to go in. He was sitting out talking to his girl.

          By the time he sees GZ behind him, even if he has a key it’s too late to safely get inside, plus it gives away where he lives, which you don’t want to do if the stalker is maybe a rapist. Plus then of course GZ would have shot him on the spot for being a burglar.

          • Makes no sense…

            Xena says that Trayvon was on the dog path heading home. But decided to go to RVC because he didn’t have a key. Then why don’t we have record of DeeDee saying Trayvon knocked on the backdoor but Chad didn’t hear him? Or records of Trayvon calling Chad’s phone to get him to let him in? It doesn’t add up.

        • Xena says:

          @already been said.

          Link to source, evidence dump, discovery, etc. mentioning Martin’s lack of house keys and the location of the garage keypad.

          You can’t prove what isn’t there. The evidence dump for what was found on Trayvon includes Skittles, Arizona can of tea, $40.13, a wrist watch, earphones, a 7-Eleven cigarette lighter, and a photo button. No keys.

          As far as the keypads to the garage doors, look at the photos.

          Why didn’t Trayvon get let in through the back door?

          Why don’t you ask GZ? Maybe he knows who left their patio doors unlocked and who didn’t? Are you familiar with sliding patio doors? Okay, I’m being funny. Common sense — only Chad was home. Do you really think he and Trayvon would leave the doors unlocked?

          • @Xena

            Link to source, evidence dump, discovery, etc. mentioning Martin’s lack of house keys and the location of the garage keypad.

            You can’t prove what isn’t there. …

            Link would have also sufficed. Point being, prosecution never mentioned it…

            Why didn’t Trayvon get let in through the back door?

            Why don’t you ask GZ?


            Maybe he knows who left their patio doors unlocked and who didn’t?


            Maybe he knows who left their patio doors unlocked and who didn’t?

            …meaning no one would hear someone knocking from the back. Yes?

            Common sense — only Chad was home. Do you really think he and Trayvon would leave the doors unlocked?

            Not point being made. This is the question:


            Xena says that Trayvon was on the dog path heading home. But decided to go to RVC because he didn’t have a key. Then why don’t we have record of DeeDee saying Trayvon knocked on the backdoor but Chad didn’t hear him? Or records of Trayvon calling Chad’s phone to get him to let him in?

          • Xena says:

            @already been said. Are you quoting yourself and asking me to explain your question? I explained the route that I believe Trayvon took and embedded a video to show and not just tell.

            Maybe you are unfamiliar with the area where Trayvon was staying and so don’t understand that Trayvon taking the dog walk, walking to the end and turning the corner to enter the front of the house agrees with Jeantel’s testimony that Trayvon was “running from the back”?

          • @Xena

            You don’t seem to understand the question.

            The question is why did Trayvon not bang on the patio door?

          • Xena says:

            @already been said.

            The question is why did Trayvon not bang on the patio door?

            Bang where? On the thick, insulated glass?

          • @Xena

            Bang where? On the thick, insulated glass?

            That was the question:


            Maybe he knows who left their patio doors unlocked and who didn’t?

            …meaning no one would hear someone knocking from the back. Yes?

        • cielo62 says:

          Already been – looks like you haven’t done yr homework.

  21. Girlp says:

    I was a lurker for a long time, I posted at HP and found myself arguing rather than discussing and HP did not have a fair and balanced system of monitering. As far as Fogen I expect him to act out once againk the problem is once the press starts ignoring him is antics will escalate in my opinion also, he can’t resist acting on his fixations young Black males and his idea that they are suspicious and going to commit a crime; this makes him a very dangerous person.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I give him about a year before he has either a fatal or an eye-opening encounter.

      • aussie says:

        Well so far he’s managing to get himself into the news every two weeks. Not bad for a guy so terrified of death threats he has to hide out in a bullet proof vest.

        • riisey007 says:

          Yeah Ifound it pretty weird that he would be speeding through Texas alone but scared shitless…His brother and O’mara are the ones going around on every news station telling lies about being scared. The brother just said that they get about 400 death threats a minute. I really realy damn near hate Robert jr, he is such a piece of work. I find myself disliking him more than his brother. I do not use the word hate often and I do not consider myself to hate anyone but Robert Jr has blown my patience completely.

    • MedicineBear says:

      One reason he fixated on YOUNG black males is because in Florida you can’t get a CCW if you’re under 21 . . . fogenshit Targeted black males that he KNEW were probably unarmed!

  22. Malisha says:

    I wish every Black person in Florida would apply for a restraining order against Fogen; say he sees Black people as dangerous and he has already killed; he’s paranoid and if he sees and confronts and kills, he’s deadly dangerous. Now, every Black person in Texas shoudl also apply for a restraining order against him; he has been sighted there too.

    Tie up their damn courts. Let the deal with the problems they have caused.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Every Black person knows the implications of the verdict in their own personal lives.

      Photo of man carrying painting in Trayvon rally:

    • colin black says:

      I wish that every Mexican Gang Members would add him to there Christmas Card List .

      ps an by that I mean obtain his address .

    • Drew says:

      Or simply be, by default, exempt from any charge were they to *actually* attack him with, say, concrete.

    • MichelleO says:

      Malisha: This is most excellent and I vote that you start a website for it. It will catch on like wildfire and you will go down in history as one stand up woman.

      • Malisha says:

        I can let the history stuff go, MichelleO, but I really would like to get the thing going and let it catch on. I’m asking a friend of mine to help me figure out how to do that. She may be able to put up a website and help me get some kind of YouTube video that has the possibility of going viral. We’ll have to figure this out. It’s an idea whose time has come.

        Fogen is a danger to society.
        He is also a danger to individuals.
        A woman has a right to a protective order against a man who might beat her up; an unknown AA could easily get shot to death by Fogen so I think he or she would really have a good case for a restraining order.

        Tie them damn courts up; if they can’t do anything right, don’t let them do anything at all.

        • groans says:

          The requested restraining orders should definitely include a provision prohibiting CAC from going in the same direction as the petitioners.

  23. Malisha says:

    Hassan goes on trial today for killing 13 and wounding several more in a shooting rampage at Fort Hood, TX. His defense (which he will apparently present himself) is that he was killing those people to prevent the murder of Taliban chiefs in Afghanistan. In other words, defense of some people he needed to defend, so justifiable homicide.

    THis is Fogen’s defense in a different form. He was killing Trayvon Martin to defend his neighborhood from “fucking punks” and “assholes who always get away” and “real suspicious guys up to no good” and Black burglars.

    Our country is perfectly willing to back a guy who is defending white Floridians against the depredations of some anonymous Black kid who wasn’t doing any of the “uncharged criminal conduct” mentioned by the murderer. But the Texas military court is not likely to give Hassan the same “carte blanche” to kill in his fantasy self-defense.

  24. dremn2004 says:

    I have tried on several occasions to post. All, with the exception of the ‘following’ always get stuck on moderation and never seemed to be freed, so I stopped.

    • aussie says:

      Hi dremn2004

      looks like you managed this time.

      To avoid being moderated
      a)only post one link at a time — if you have more links put them immediately into “replies” to your own comment
      b) don’t change your user name — every name change gets you moderated the first time, after that you can swap them at will.

      Now you’ve made it, you’re free to post anytime.

    • LTC Lisa Y. Nolen (RET) says:

      Retired and Extremely Dangerous (RED):

      Me too. Not sure how to get in on the action. In the past I have to shy to try. Now, that I have the formal invitation, please let me in.

  25. MDH says:

    “Stand your ground” should be more aptly called “bait and kill”.

    It allows a person to aggressively confront another to the point wherein the confronted has a legitimate fear for their safety such that they may have to use physical force to save themselves. The aggressor can then pull out their hidden trump card and it becomes a situation wherein only one person can tell the tale.

    IMO, there should not be concealed carry. Other people have the right to know what they are up against.

    If GZ was such a coward that he needed a gun to go everywhere, then it should have been in an open holster for all to see.

    • crazy1946 says:

      MDH, The addition of a gun turns what would have normally been a minor argument or simple physical encounter into an instant formula for death… it astounds me that something as simple as the possible loss of a possession like a cheap radio or television would be worth taking a life to prevent…. Why do we as a nation place a higher value on possession than we do for a life? Concealed carry, no! If you must have a penis extension to prove you are a man at least be man enough to display it so all can admire your manliness….

      • Malisha says:

        I believe anyone with a gun should have to wear distinctive clothing at all times to identify himself as carrying.

        • looneydoone says:

          There are a few groups that deserve scrutiny
          1) “Oath Keepers”…a radical rightwing group of active/former military, law enforcement. ALL of Florida’s 67 County Sheriff’s have signed the pledge

          2) “Save America Foundation” founded by Seminole County resident Fred Brownbill, an emigree from S Africa who arrived in the usa Oct 1994 (became a naturalized citizen 2003). He is a Deputy Sheriff in Florida. President of this organization, and member of “Oath Keepers”. Jim Campbell, citizen journalist, “Oath Keeper” and *patriot* resides in Seminole county/Sanford

          3)”Target Freedom”
          urges readers to “join now”
          John Birch Society
          Campaign for Liberty-Ron Paul
          Break the Matrix
          SC Tea Party
          Oath Keepers

          These groups are very active in central Flori-gun
          Perhaps the source for fogen’s *defense* funds ?

        • riisey007 says:

          That farce of a trial just reiterated to a nut with a gun that he can do whatever he likes. Zimmermans trial was just the right formula for these type of people and there will be more gun violence because of it. I still have a major problem with people saying he never should have been tried in the first place and that there was no evidence that he did anything wrong.

          Zimmerman had an injury to his nose and to the back of his head but there was no crime taking place for Zimmerman to even spring into action and a person lay dead. How can this not be worthy of him being charged? I am so sick of people saying that we have no evidence again Zimmerman but what evidence did you have against Martin? he had nothing stolen on his person, he had no weapon. Why is it that Zimmerman could not have gotten those injuries from Martin defending himself? The entire case was laid out in this blog and bcc blog by people who took a big interest in the case. There was a lot of work done here and you mean to tell me that we all came up with the charge and how the crime occured but it could not be displayed in the courtroom? puzzling? I do believe that manslaughter should have been the main charge due to SPD screwing the investigation up, not bagging evidence appropriately. There is no reason for this man to be out and driving around. His family is a complete set of jerks. They all are living off of donation money and they have piece of crap lawyers who won’t stay off of t.v, just seeing the article about Zimmerman speeding and asking the officer did he recognize him just further let’s me know that he is a psycho and that he in his mind is king and the only wrong done was toward him. I watched him in the courtroom, he was not scared when the verdict came in because that jury was planted and the only one that wasn’t was the hispanic lady. They knew the deal going in and O’mara and West queing him on how to look everyday in that court room. I don’t know if anyone noticed but when they reached a verdict Zimmerman was just sitting there, his father look over to the right and his mother and their other family and friends just looked ahead, they already knew the verdict and were told by O’mara to not look obvious. Zimmerman knew he was going home that night. I will go to my grave thinking this and no one is gonna change my mind, I will also go to my grave with this knowledge as well.

          1. Frank Taffe was there the whole time.
          2. Martin never hit Zimmerman
          3. Zimmermans truck was never where he claimed it was( we all know Shellie moved it and that the police thought he was on foot the entire time) so the timeline is off due to this.
          4. I believe Martin made it home and was chased back making me wonder if he didn’t drive to the back gate and get out and run
          5. I believe John the neighbor lied and is still lieing to this day about what he saw.
          6. I believe the photos were photoshopped
          7. I believe there is another eyewitness possibly someone elderly or black that was too scared to get involved who saw it for the most part
          8. I believe the teacher is the most credible witness and the only reason they discounted her is because they wanted John’s testimony which makes you go hummmmm, this lady saw him walk toward her window( so how is she not a better witness than John with his MMA style fighting and thinking they were dogs)
          9. I think Zimmerman has been diagnosed with some type of personality disorder and with all of that he will be a danger for someone else because he can’t help himself.
          10. I think Zimmermans family are frauds and know the entire story and know what he is capable of which makes them guilty as well and very dangerous.
          11. I think Singleton and Serino will get what is coming to them eventually. They lied and they know why.
          12. I think that Trayvon Martin became a sacraficial lamb
          13. I think Trayvon Martin’s was a teenager who was testing the waters, I believe he was an ordinary teen with a knack for getting himself in trouble because he wasn’t quite as smooth as he thought he was but with that being said he was 17 years old and was not harming anyone when he was killed, people forget that and they focus on a fake gold grill, burglary tools?? suspension for weed residue but at the same time they never wanted to think of him as a teenager, I am so saddened by people saying he was a grown man when they themselves don’t consider their teen as a grown man or woman. I have a 16 year old son and lord knows he is not a grown man, he may look like one but he is not and he acts just like a teenager who needs guidance everyday of the week. I was also appalled at so many former marijuana users who acted like Martin was on speed or something, there were a lot of people commenting who grew up in the flower child, peace era but yet they called him a drug abuser. It is amazing what you will say and do in order for your own prejudices to be relevant. This nation is truly divided and people have lost their ability to empathize. I say to Sabrina abd Tracy that your sons life mattered and I will always think and remember Trayvon just as I do Emmitt Till, the 3 young civil rights who were killed in Mississippi, James Chaney, Andrew Goodman and Michael Shrewner. these are people who died at the hands of racism it is really sad that the color of your skin or fighting for what you believe can get you killed like this even at this time.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          I think concealed carry is a crock. People should be forced to carry their gun on their hip.

      • MDH says:

        In the USA, there is a large subset of the population that elevates property rights above human rights.

        In this hierarchical mindset, those who own more property are better people than those who don’t. So killing those on the lower rungs of society in the interest of protecting property becomes desirable for them.

        In Dr. Strangelove, they touched on the John Bircher reverence for private property in this scene.

        I feel that we in the USA have lost our collective soul. Maybe we never had it in the first place, given how we robbed the Native Americans of their collective property rights. I believe the courts declared that they “abandoned title” or come other BS to make a thief feel he is not a thief.

    • bettykath says:

      If fogen didn’t have a gun he wouldn’t have gotten out of his truck.

      • type1juve says:

        No truer words have ever been spoken. Fogen is a coward and there is no way he would have ever approached Trayvon without his gun. He stalked the child, sized him up, and went in for the kill. I believe the murder was premeditated.

  26. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Whonoze and tchoupi,

    I applaud the work you are doing.

  27. Drew says:

    Ugh, just watched this Bill Maher clip.

    These people are on television. They get paid to have these diseased opinions.

    • jodiwankanobi says:

      apart from the guy on the left i thought this was ok.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Cornell West’s excellent point at timestamp 2:30 –

      There is something else going on.

      I think at the deep human level that we have to begin with the tears of the parents of Brother Trayvon. Sister Sybrina and Brother Tracy. And, what are those tears about?

      Those tears are about their young precious son being criminalized, which is to say, a form of soul murder before he is physically murdered.

      And, he is criminalized by what? He’s an “elfin so and so”. He’s an “a-hole.”

    • MDH says:

      No shit, with the dweeb on the left prattling on about the “thug wannabe beating GZ to a pulp”. I take it this guy goes to the ICU for a shaving cut. Even Dr. West makes the mistake of even implying that Trayvon put up a significant fight.

      The only guy who sees things clearly is Maher. GZ is a fuckin liar and anything out of the mouth of a liar has no credibility. That’s all anybody ever really needed to know to come to the right conclusion of guilty.

      The big question that never seems to get asked is:

      Why was the story of a proven liar believed to the point that people try to fit evidence to his many stories?

      The first rule of forensics is to let the evidence tell the tale. It certainly does not show a man “beaten to a pulp”.

      • Drew says:

        “Savagely beaten” is what that Daily Caller right-wing welfare beneficiary said.

        Note the racist connotation.


        • MDH says:

          God, these people are stupid.

          GZ has no evidence of being drilled with a full punch. He may have been hit one time by a lashing hand that had no leverage behind it.

          Savagely beaten is a racist connotation.

          Another one I hear at some gyms is ghetto genes. Apparently these ass clowns think that all black males in urban areas can just mosey on over to a gym, do a few push up and, presto, they are a marvel of musculature.

          From this lame bit of racism flows the often told tome:

          White athlete is a hard worker and the black one is gifted.

          Black males are never given credit for anything.

          I read that Bob Beaman did Olympic weightlifting on the sly to improve his explosiveness because the white coaches at that time thought weightlifting made athletes slow. Is that not a case of an intelligent black man going against white stupidity?

          • Drew says:

            I wish more people in the pathetic world of sports journalism would talk about stuff like this.*

            Whites who slam bats / pout / jog out weak grounders: passionate, fiery, just want to win

            Blacks: malcontented, selfish, lazy

            * Maybe I don’t know where to look?

      • colin black says:

        It did not have to once the State introduced foggages allegations that he read Trayvons mind.

        And thought he may have seen the gun .And therefore was reaching for thee… gun.

        It didn’t matter the extent of his injures .

        A person whom is reaching for your firearm is perceived as a lethal threat.

        An you are entitled to shoot them…

        If the state hadn’t allowed that hocus pocus nonsence to come out of his mouth via the re-enactment vt .

        The jury would have let him walk anyway but it was a disasterous thing to risk with say an unbiased neutral jury an may have secured an acquittal.

        BBut his aquitall was ensured anyway.

        The defendant had an has no clout but the GUN an the N R A have huge sway in Merica if a knife had been used to slay Trayvon opposed to a gun or even a wooden billystick then he would have been convicted.

        Its the gun that has protection an the people whom own them rights to discharge them at aany threat real or imagined that was protected.

        Not the igsignificent dolt that pulled the trigger.

  28. Drew says:

    Using O’Mara / Zimmerass / Florida bullshit logic, any murder or assault that occurs on the sidewalk, in a parking lot, near a street / driveway / paved walkway, cannot be pursued criminally because the victim could have potentially used the concrete to bash the perpetrator’s head in.

  29. Yorazigo says:

    One more comment before I turn for the night. I went to Tracy’s & Sybrina’s petition to check the status of signatures and saw the following comment. Either this person is badly informed or from the “dark side.” If only misinformed, question is: how can CORRECT information get out there?

    “I signed this petition only to comment: Yes, this case was handled wrong and Zimmerman should not have been jduged innocent– but this petition is biased. It says in the e-mail “our son, who was just trying to get home to his father.” That may be true, but Trayvon was robbing Zimmerman. Zimmerman chased after Trayvon after he tried to break into his car and stabbed him to death. I’m not justifying Zimmerman, but I’m pointing out that this is extremely biased; Trayvon is not as innocent as they made him seem. Please research these things before signing petitions– they’ve been manipulated.”

    • MichelleO says:

      Thank you.

    • Xena says:

      @Yorazigo. That’s “Zidiot speak.” It’s also either passive-aggressive behavior or that of an abuser.

      I heard from a friend that those type of lies, along with the photo of that rapper purported to be Trayvon, are being spread over in the UK and Europe in effort to support the verdict.

      That is why we cannot stop telling the facts and the truth, even now after the verdict. Zidiots know that federal charges are coming. They want to play into the sovereign citizen agenda to disparage the U.S. government.

    • aussie says:

      WOW! that’s a few steps up from the “bashing on concrete” and a burglary tool in his possession.

      Part of the problem may be just this — people convinced that what is in their heads is the absolute truth and no evidence from the outside world counts for anything. This is beyond simple racism. This is paranoid ideation. And there seems to be much too much of it around.

      • Drew says:

        As Jun has said, if TM was “armed” with concrete, then so was Zimmertits, in addition to his gun. So he had a clear advantage.

        I wonder how many mouthbreathing right-wingers and center-left moderate idiots would choose to arm themselves with concrete (a la our savage black child thug Trayvon) as opposed to a 9mm pistol.

      • Xena says:


        Part of the problem may be just this — people convinced that what is in their heads is the absolute truth and no evidence from the outside world counts for anything. This is beyond simple racism. This is paranoid ideation. And there seems to be much too much of it around.

        While what you say is true, it goes a bit deeper than that now. There are people who heard the verdict, but did not watch the trial. Zidiots are now hoping to reach those people with lies in hopes that they will believe those were the lies that got GZ acquitted. It’s still a disparage upon Trayvon Martin. Zidiots hate Trayvon more than like GZ.

        If the feds should charge GZ, then Zidiots will argue to the same ignorant, ill-informed folks that the government is wrong and it’s all part of the “BGI.” You see, they make up what they need to back their own conspiracies — truth be damned.

        • Elizabeth says:

          Not for one minute do I believe they are confused or mixed up
          about some other case
          the lies are to show that they dare and have no respect and will
          say and do anything because they can.Sick.
          They think it’s funny!

    • Malisha says:

      The idiot who posted that confused two cases. One was a guy who, years earlier, chased after and stabbed someone who stole his car radio.

      You can’t correct the crap put out by idiots, racists, or their zillion busy cousins. There is not time or energy in the WORLD to put out controversion for all their idiocies, all their lies, their distortions, delusions, and fantasies.

      • roderick2012 says:

        Malisha: The idiot who posted that confused two cases. One was a guy who, years earlier, chased after and stabbed someone who stole his car radio.

        I never for a moment believe that the guy stole the other guy’s radio. There was a bag of stolen radios and I believe that both of them had stolen the radios and the thief who was murdered decided to keep them all for himself instead of dividing them as he had promised the murderer.

        The murderer became a victim less than two years later. Karma will get Piglet too.

      • MichelleO says:

        @Malisha: This is what racists do with such cases. For instance, I saved and filed a lot of the information from the document dumps on this particular case last summer. But going back to recover some of it from net searches, I have found that the racists have been very busy in hijacking those documents, creating new websites, and then injecting erroneous information into those official documents. They then proceed to create as many websites as possible in which to disseminate as much of the erroneous material as possible in order to confuse the facts and spread the racist mythology. So, be careful in going back and searching for case information, because many of the official or informative sites will not be returned first. The erroneous sites with the most hits will be plastered all over the search results for several pages. Like looking for truth in a haystack.

        • lady2soothe says:

          @ Professor, MichelleO, Malisha and anyone else who may need information.

          I have 33 pages od Links in size 10 font … I will be happy to post them or if the Professor would like to open a page I will send them to him to publish.


    • colin black says:

      Idiot is getting mixed up with a case out of Miami featured on the firsr 48..A guys truck had been broken into sevral times.
      He was Hispanic an saw two youths breaking in an stealing a radio from it.
      He ran one down an stabbed him to death.As far as I know he was charged with murder an convicted.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        No, that one who stabbed the guys with the radios got off with SYG. But he died two years later in the crossfire of a driveby shooting in which he was not involved. Karma got ’em. God’ plan.

    • cielo62 says:

      His what an absolute moron!! Obviously he did NO research so he has no right to talk! Stabbing?? WTF??

  30. lady2soothe says:

    A few months ago I bought a bargain DVD for $3, then forgot all about it… Tonight, wow…. It is definitely a must see

    “Freedom Song” with Danny Glover: Based on actual events from the Civil Rights Movement Mississippi era 1960’s.

    Told in flashbacks from the perspective of Owen Walker, a high school student in the fictional town of Quinlan, Mississippi in the mid-1960s. Growing up in an insulated black community, Owen is oblivious to the white supremacy that still reigned in his town until he has a run-in with racists at a local bus station. While waiting for the bus, five-year-old Owen wanders unknowingly into the ‘Whites Only’ diner. His father, Will, soon follows quickly behind and then is forced by white diner attendants to publicly spank his son. Will tells his Owen, “someday you’ll be eating at this counter”. But this scene of public humiliation leaves a lasting scar on their relationship.

    There’s a trailer on this site.

    • lady2soothe says:

      PS… I recommend a box of tissue in lieu of popcorn.

      • MichelleO says:

        I would like to see Fruitvale Station, but just cannot at this time. The only satisfaction I get out of this true story about Oscar Grant, is that his murderer Johannes Mersele (?) has his name and evil deed splashed out in the open again.

        I can only guess that the fogan’s time in cinema is coming too. You can run, but you can’t hide.

        • Xena says:

          @MichelleO. Several weeks ago, I watched the movie Blind Faith. At the end, I thought it had been released last year and waited for the credits. It was released in 1998. Don’t let the title fool you. It has nothing to do about faith. An attorney played by Corey B. Vance starts in present day with a jury acquitting a White man for murdering a black teen, then takes the audience back to 1957 to share how he became involved in civil rights.

          • MichelleO says:

            Thank you for the synopsis, but it will be awhile before I can view such movie topics. Again, I thank you for taking the time to explain the subject matter of the movie to me.

          • Xena says:

            @MichelleO. I love movies! When I was in college the class watched a film for sociology titled “The Well.” A few months ago I found it on Amazon on DVD. The cover does not present the real subject matter because it was so controversial then. It was made around 1951 and IMO, before its time.

        • J4TMinATL says:

          @ michelle

          I want to see Fruitvale Station too.

  31. Yorazigo says:

    Another article in Washington Post about SYG, I don’t remember seeing it posted here.

  32. Yorazigo says:

    Here’s an article about SYG in FL. The accounts of those who were not charged/or acquitted are disgusting, to say the least. Shooting people over number of trash bags! Shooting people in the BACK, after they turned to walk away!

  33. J4TMinATL says:

    Welcome all lurkers. This is family. J4TM family. Intelligent and outspoken fam.

    Hoping we all virtually stay in each others lives.

    Love idea of having private email address database. To accomplish, we have to consider how to keep info safe from fakes/trolls.

  34. dianetrotter says:

    This blog has been a real blessing to me. I refer to it in a lot of my articles and comments. If would be great to leave the blog as it is but attach it to a full blown website with resources and separate blogs on other hot topics. I know it is a lot of work professor. If you and Crane would start with a small site, you could slowly build as you get reliable people to write. Anywho….putting my pittance in Paypal by tomorrow. Going to bed!

  35. acemayo says:,1
    When someone says that black’s commit almost 50% of the Murder and non negligent manslaughter there are right but whites
    commit almost 50% the Murder and non negligent manslaughter
    that was report by the crime
    Table 43 Arrests by Race, 2009,2010,2011 from the FBI
    Of all the crime in the USA whites did 69% black’s around 28%
    Because the FBI says GZ was not a racism person

  36. You all have thoughtful comments says:

  37. Jeanette says:

    I had been a lurker for several months and just prior to the verdict, began posting occasionally. I like the site, the passion and graciousness of its hosts, and the wealth of knowledge other regular commenters bring.

    I have to admit, though, I’m taking the Zimmerman verdict hard and have difficulty discussing it in any venue. My hope is to transition from more of a lurker and participate in any Jordan Davis discussions, as I fear justice is very much in danger in that case as well.

    • colin black says:

      Just dip a toe in an if if feels good take the plunge .
      Backstroke front crawl even jujt doggy paddle.

      Heck even if you start to drown someone will dive in an save you.

      Or at least throw you a life preserver.

      And you don’t have to go with the flow.

      A person whom swims against the current is just as valued even cherished .

      As only a stong swimmer can fight an swim against a tide .

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:


      >I have to admit, though, I’m taking the Zimmerman verdict hard and have difficulty discussing it in any venue.

      Please know that I hear you.

      It was devastating to me as a white mother and grandmother to witness the tears, shock, anger, and heartbreak of our fellow posters whose children’s lives are directly affected by the implications of the verdict.

      I hear you….how do you give birth through a posted comment to what fills your heart when there is such anguish wrapped in so many levels of conflicting emotion? It is too large to give birth to….to release into the world…..and, yet, the labor pains of that necessary birth continue.

      I hear you.


      • J4TMinATL says:

        X2 @jeamnette and YAHC

      • Jeanette says:

        I’m way late, almost to the point irrelevancy, in jumping back in; however, I wanted to thank everyone for the thoughtfulness, understanding and encouraging replies.

        On a quick note: I’m a parent of three young black males, with the younger 2 still living at home. What used to be a source of pride–seeing them walking the 2 blocks from school to home (in a predominantly White suburb) as award winning athletes in their school issued hoodies–has now become a source of terror.

        My deepest appreciation to those that continue the fight that they, and others, be able to make these basic human journeys that so many others take for granted, unimpeded and simply alive.

  38. colin black says:

    Yorazigo says:

    August 4, 2013 at 7:09 pm

    ….400 threats a minute….

    1) Where’s the PROOF?
    2) Are these threats being investigated and prosecuted?
    2) If it’s true, taxes sure will be going up in Seminole County.

    Would be a lot cheaper to support the guy in prison.


    No wait I don’t think your quite up to speed with how the zimms roll.

    400 Threats a minute is probably conservative estimate when you have the abilty to know what other people are thinking.

    Its a gift the zimmspins all seem to have inherited mutated afro Peruvian caucsian with a bit of E T In there ..Just as foggage was able to read Trayvons thought s an Intentions the night he Had to murder him in self defence.

    He thought that Trayvon may have possably seen his gun .

    An this being the case he knew Trayvon would attempt to take it from him as it was no longer his gun

    He knew Trayvon had decided it was just any ole bodys gun .

    An first come first served so he had to trap TRrayvons Arm disable him from reaching it an killing him for sure.

    So you see the zimms don’t need no actual txt or emails ect to know how many people are thinking about killing them.

    Be the peron grappling with you one on one in the dark alley back of some town houses

    Or be they people hundreds of miles away in another state or another country.

    They Know its a gift or a curse one of the two.

  39. colin black says:

    Anytime anyone goes out for anything, we all know about it. If my phone died, my family would be in a panic that they didn’t hear from me,” he added

    Quote from juniozimm

    Has this gut no empathy if his freaking phoned died his family would panic.

    Well you frigging little dharma QUEEN what type of PANIC do you think Trayvons PAARENTS where In

    When they found out not only had there SONS phone DIED he has DIED also.

    You pathetic lieing piece of empty space
    Youe ibbicilic brother the one with the othere of the two brain cells endowed on you by nature an natural selection.

    Is so scared of being regognised so afraid for his life.

    He tells an officer whom has stopped him for speeding.

    Don’t you know who I am from TV .

    Same shit you would say if you were refused entry into Lavander Club.

    Not only did he make sure the officer knew hom he was he started playing with his gun infront of an armed cop?

    An seeing as his an most guns are just phallic symbols an it certainly is in your twisted brothers case.

    That the equivalent of him strokeing an mastabating his genitallia in front of an officer of the law.

    Now whilst that sounds incredibly dangerous an stupid to me.

    It certainly doest sound shy or retireing behaviour to me.

    Opposite in fact sound dam near seath wish thinks he is invicible type of behaviour .

    Cops have unloaded there firearms into some one for a lot less than that.

  40. trayvonstruth says:

    I too must admit that I’m a lurker but I have to come and read for peace of mind. We have been unable to write at our blog (DPTM) because of the disgust that we feel over this verdict, not quite yet ready to put into words how we all feel about it yet but I definitely feel a need to stay connected through all of your posts. It’s truly the only sanity I have at this point. I appreciate all of your comments and I know that they are read by Trayvon’s family as well.

  41. colin black says:

    Some people just like to read browsers not lurkers.

    Lurking to me denotes a sense of criminal intent.

    Infact lurking with intent is a criminal offence In Scotland.

    A known criminal with a record for say uttering wich is FRAUD.

    Can be arrested for lirking with Intent to commit ……Fill in the blank..

    You haven’t commited any crime but they rekon your just about to.

    Lurking the word is most often used with the word meniceingly following it.

    So I think its unfair to catorgise people whom simply enjoy reading blogs an keeping there mouths shut an there opinions to themselves.

    A Rare quality an a quality I admire to be honest.

    The saying still waters run deep is true as is empty barrellls mke the most noise.

    I say greetings to all the silent majority.


    An carry on browseing the grass is very nutrious an not foggage but healthy an strong.

  42. 2dogsonly says:

    Ok, I see this posted. Maybe the others were too long..two or three paragraphs only but it felt discouraging so I haven’t tried since then.

    • Judy75201 says:

      Did you have links? I’ve read that if a post has more than one link it will have to be moderated before posting. Welcome!

  43. 2dogsonly says:

    Professor and friends,
    I typed two posts and they just poofed so thought I was on some kind of list.

  44. urgh! Robert Z has the same story telling gene as his brother

    so they have to be real careful whenever anyone leaves the house out of necessity only but fogen was heading “nowhere in particular”, and the whole starbucks saga sounds a little fogen-ish to me. I have no doubt that had this actually happened this family would have screamed like the little bitches they are and these employees would be in a lot of trouble right now.. the kid probably said “here’s your coffee” and robert created the rest of it in his head.

    • Judy75201 says:

      *Like* 🙂

    • Yorazigo says:

      ….400 threats a minute….

      1) Where’s the PROOF?
      2) Are these threats being investigated and prosecuted?
      2) If it’s true, taxes sure will be going up in Seminole County.

      Would be a lot cheaper to support the guy in prison.

      • MedicineBear says:

        1) They don’ need no stinkin’ proof. The great fogen has spoken.

      • aussie says:

        400 threats ON SOCIAL MEDIA

        “Mr. Zimmerman said the family receive the most death threats on social media.

        “We have to monitor social media and the Internet to see if there are any rallies nearby that pose a specific threat, and we avoid them,” he said, adding that the threats sometimes average 400 per minute.”

        Well if he stopped monitoring it he’d not know about them. That simple. They’re not THREATS, they’re just people like us wishing them a short and painful life.

        The Starbucks incident, he said “George is in jail” so that must have been before the got the $1 million bond. Doesn’t he have anything MORE RECENT?

        • Two sides to a story says:

          Someone needs to tell the Zfam that they’re 8 times more likely to be killed by a cop or a wannabe cop in the US than a terrorist.

    • Xena says:

      Until his hear-say mouthpieces came to the media, about the only thing that the public knew about GZ was based on his NEN call. That was enough to know he was in the wrong and wonder why on earth he had not been arrested. Junior, Papa Zim, Taaffe, Oliver, and Osterman simply added fuel to the fire. They did it to themselves.

    • MichelleO says:

      He’s telling a phuggin lie, because this family is famously sue happy. Everything that those Starbucks employee’s said would have been recorded. So far, all this racist phugg has on his mind is further tormenting the dead boy’s family and suing that news station.

    • groans says:

      Ahhhhh….. If only it were true. But, of course, it’s not!

      Here’s my favorite part of the “August 4, 2013” article:

      Mr. Zimmerman found himself in a threatening situation in Washington, D.C., when Starbucks employees mistook him for his brother.

      “I said, no, George is in jail.”

      WHEN was the last time that Georgie Porgie was in jail?? Either CAC is already in serious trouble (maybe he killed a white kid this time?) … or, this incident was more than a year ago!!


  45. Judy75201 says:

    Malisha, what will your sign say? I’m sure you posted it previously, but I don’t know where to begin to look. Is this a DreamDefenders gathering in D.C.?

    • Malisha says:

      Sharpton called at march on Washington for Aug. 24.

      My sign says, on the front, white on black, “No More Cover-UP”
      in a circle-slash (red)

      On the back it’s Black on white, says “Down with Cover-UP”

      But I’nm thinking now i’ll try to make a big sheet that takes two to carry, saying:


      and beneat that: SUE ME, SUCKER!

      • Judy75201 says:

        Oh, I like the last one best!!!!!

      • pat deadder says:

        Malisha or SUE ME CAC.Or maybe not such a good idea.It’s just that I thought Rachael and understood every word she said.JN was just as condescending to Rachael as the rest of the pigs.

        • Malisha says:

          I’d love Fogen to sue for defamation.
          Truth is an absolute defense.
          Imagine the trial!

          Elizabeth Morgan was sued for defamation in the federal district court in Alexandria VA back in about 1990; she countersued for damages; the trial was a BLAST and the alleged molester got smish-smashed all over the place! The Fourth Circuit wrote a knock-dead decision!

          (Jonathan Turley was always on the alleged molester’s side, devoted something like eight years to defending that man. So actually Fogen was in “good company” … ) UGH!

  46. lairdbearly says:

    I have to admit that I always read your blogs professor- been too shy to comment frequently as I like to. I am devasted by the verdict.

    • Judy75201 says:

      lairdbearly, it’s astounding how much fogen manages to create devastation and destruction in everything he touches. I feel how you feel.

    • MedicineBear says:

      I’m devastated too. I’ve crawled back into my lurking hole to lick my wounds and eat comfort food. Taking the long view, I think this case will some day be seen as a powerful wake-up call that set revolutionary healing changes in motion for Humanity.

      I share the pain you express so well and I hope you post more. It’s a real comfort to read the grief, pain, anger, etcetera that others are also experiencing in this “safe” community of passionate, yet respectful and empathetic, better angels.

  47. bettykath says:

    Poll on SYG

    The Quinnipiac University poll showed 53 percent of American voters back such laws, compared to 40 percent who don’t.

    There were some discrepancies in the poll, however, when it came to race and gender; 57 percent of white voters and 62 percent of men polled said they support Stand Your Ground, while only 37 percent of African-Americans and 44 percent of women agreed.

    Quinnipiac Poll details

    Source: Quinnipiac University Poll–Aug. 2, 2013

    White voters support ‘Stand Your Ground’ laws 57–37 percent
    Black voters are opposed 57–37 percent.
    Men support these laws 62–34 percent
    Women are divided with 44-47 percent
    Support 75–19 percent among Republicans
    Support 57–37 percent among independent voters
    Opposed 62–32 percent among Democrats

  48. THE Shadow says:

    My God, but that is beautiful.

  49. bettykath says:

    This article shows the relationship between Trayvon and young Mexican who was murdered. It shows the bigger picture.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      It is good you posted the link to this important article, betty. Thank you.

      from the article:

      The Zimmerman exoneration shocked millions in this country by revealing that Florida state law, at the very least, provides a legal loophole for vigilante violence against people of color. What I want to show here is that there is a comparably terrifying situation in the borderlands, one in which state violence against migrants and Mexican nationals like José Antonio is carried out with almost total impunity and governmental nontransparency.

  50. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    A lady at the Trayvon rally I attended two weeks ago read her son’s poem. She emailed it to me and said that I had her son’s permission to post it.

    Here it is:


    Trayvon is gone, while his killer walks free
    Shot thru the heart by a vigilan-te

    The boy didn’t seek the man with the gun
    The man followed him and he tried to run

    No need to follow, dispatcher said
    Killer heeded only ugly thoughts instead:

    ‘That guy’s a punk and that guy’s a crook
    His crime is I hate the way that he looks’

    ‘So I’ll track him down — not say who I am
    What trouble that brings, I don’t give a damn’

    ‘Cause whether we argue; whether we fight
    I’ve got my gun, so I’ll be all-right’

    Oh what a spot, he put the teen in
    Confronted that night, Trayvon couldn’t win

    ‘I reached for my cell’, the gunman has said
    What thoughts would run through anyone’s head?

    Here’s a man reaching, who just tracked you down
    Trust he is harmless or knock him to ground?

    Turns out the phone was not where says reaching
    Did he seek gun, before any screeching?

    The killer blames Trayvon, claims self-defense
    With varying tales that just don’t make sense

    Thin unarmed teen, no friends at his back
    Why, without cause, a grown man attack?

    Gunman leaves truck despite alleged fears?
    To get name of street, he’s lived near for years?

    If skirting, not causing, trouble his goal
    Why not tell Trayvon his watchman role?

    No matter how the fight did unfold
    Killer made it happen, didn’t do as told

    And once conflict started, does it ring true
    That shooting was all the killer could do?

    Two hundred pounds and mixed martial arts
    Why so helpless once the fight starts?

    No punching or grabbing, no poke in the eye
    Could the killer not fight, or did he not try?

    Thick arms so useless, it seems all wrong
    Unless they were going for gun all along

    One bloody nose, two scrapes on the head
    Bigger man really feared soon to be dead?

    So battered he had to seal a boy’s fate
    But an ER that night not worth the wait?

    If truly the gunman too soft to fight
    How reckless of he to stalk teens at night!

    Where likely for strangers to come to blows
    So likely he’ll shoot if that’s all he knows

    This man had no badge, back-up or baton
    Ventured with nothing but gun to count on

    Trouble didn’t start with a grab or a punch
    But armed amateur pursuing a hunch

    For those who question: where was the crime?
    A dead unarmed youth might pose this rhyme:

    “No right to bring trouble, if once trouble starts
    Your only move is a gun to my heart”

    Trayvon is gone; he committed the sin
    Of wearing a hood and wearing dark skin

    An innocent profiled — cruel iron-y
    Profiler acting more criminal than he

    Just walking home, the youth not the one
    Stalking, disobeying, hiding a gun

    If black man with gun chased white unarmed teen
    And chose not to wait ‘til cops on the scene

    Would same bloody nose, two scrapes on the head
    Arouse such support for shooting teen dead?

    No right to bring trouble, if once trouble starts
    Your only move is a gun to the heart

    Trayvon is gone and parents mourn son
    Who lost next from wannabe with gun?

    Trayvon is gone and his killer is free
    Justice, like Trayvon, a sad casualty

    Don’t excuse as “God’s plan” that Trayvon is gone
    His death speaks a cause, we must carry on

    CJ (July 2013)

    • Judy75201 says:

      What a wonderful poem!

    • Yorazigo says:

      Thank you for posting YAHTC. This a truly beautiful, moving & insightful poem. And please convey our gratitude to the mother & her son for sharing.

    • Susan says:

      Please tell the lady to tell her son:

      This is absolutely brilliant. My only question to him: Who is going to write the music…?!

      Call me old fashioned, but I think it would make a beautiful ballad. “The Ballad of Trayvon Martin”, or perhaps, “The Youth’s Rhyme”.

      “No right to bring trouble, if once trouble starts
      Your only move is a gun to my heart”

      Just wonderful!

      Thanks for sharing this.


      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I will pass on your thoughts, Susan.

        Maybe, Xena could put it to music on her blog the way she did Kindheart’s poem.

        • Xena says:


          Maybe, Xena could put it to music on her blog the way she did Kindheart’s poem.

          I would love to, but I need a name for attribution. I would not want those words stolen by anyone and claimed as their own. If the writer wants to remain anonymous, would it be okay to attribute “anonymous author through You all have thoughtful comments”?

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            I think I understand the technicalities that you have explained, Xena.

            We probably should just leave things as they are, that is, that I was given permission to post it and nothing further.

            Maybe the poet, on his own, will think to do something more with it.

    • dianetrotter says:

      It has the form of a rap song. I hope he has it copyrighted – first thing. There may be a local group that can come up with a beat … than put it on YouTube. My advice.

    • groans says:

      Wow! That is really great! Thank you AGAIN, YAHTC!

  51. Yorazigo says:

    Welcome to new posters!

  52. THE Shadow says:

    Hello, I’m a “use to be” lurker. This has always been my come-to site when I wanted factual truths, news, and clear rational opinions. And humor. Some of you have an awesome sense of humor.
    Almost every time I visit I learn something new. And that, too is pretty awesome.

  53. Yorazigo says:

    Another news report:

    I hope that the percentages they report (totals) are wrong. After seeing so much abuse of these SYG laws, I find it unimaginable that so many people would support them. Read yesterday that 32 states already have SYG.

    • Girlp says:

      Yes, many states have SYG in some form but Florida’s stands out, my state has it also but really doesn’t go too far from the original castle doctorine basically extends to your entire property, the other addition is to business owners which in my opinion could be dangerous as the business owner could shoot the wrong person or their gun taken away from them(which almost happened once) and they are shot. An even bigger problem is a couple of counties are allowing concealed weapons in bars, resturants and on playgrounds which is extremly dangerous.

    • cielo62 says:

      Yorazigo~ Yes, technically they do, but not all are worded the same way. I don’t think that Zimmerman would have been acquitted in Texas because he was the initial aggressor. I’m not sure Florida’s SYG is that clear.


    • cielo62 says:

      Yorazigo~ Zimmerman: The Poison that Keeps On Giving.


    • groans says:

      If only BDLR had applied his “B-B-B-B-Bad to the Bone” skills (that he demonstrated when cross-examining Ben Kruidbos) during CAC’s trial, we’d be having very different conversations lately. We saw what BDLR is capable of … but we didn’t see anything like it applied on Trayvon’s behalf.

      Maybe young Ben’s lawsuit is part of the pay-back karma headed BDLR’s way – for using his skills selfishly for his own self-interest but then holding them back when the time arrived to get Justice for Trayvon.

      It actually wouldn’t be SO bad to see the State of Florida forced to hand over $5 million to little Ben on account of BDLR … knowing what we know now!

      • Xena says:

        @groans. Not making excuses for Bernie, but I think it’s because he cares about Trayvon, Sybrina and Tracy, that he didn’t go ballistic on cross-examination. See, the defense didn’t just voice threats of what they would do if the state this thus and so. What the defense did was voice those threats on national television, which is like doing what is threatened anyway.

        For instance, West said that he wanted to depose Crump longer especially since Jeantel’s testimony. Yet, the defense closed without calling Crump as a witness. The defense had privilege to recall Jeantel, but didn’t.

        They jumped through hoops about the THC levels, but closed their case without any mention of it.

        That’s a good way of getting your opponent to prepare for battles that never happen.

        All in all, it’s my opinion that no matter how the state performed, O’Mara had Juror B37 in his pocket and already instructed her to advise other jurors that if it wasn’t said in the witness stand, that it can’t be considered.

        As far as Ben Kruidbos’ lawsuit goes, he is going to have an uphill battle BECAUSE, the photos he allegedly retrieved from Trayvon’s phone were those that a witness said were hidden in a folder that required a password. The judge did not allow them into evidence at trial. They neither proved nor disproved that GZ killed Trayvon in self-defense and were irrelevant.

        • aussie says:

          Actually those photos, if indeed they were on that phone, were not “available” for the prosecution to hand over to the defence. They had handed over the raw data.

          Nobody on the State side knew about them — except Kruidbos. He worked on them as a private curiosity project on paid work time. Then instead of giving them to his employer (the State) he went and gave them to the defence claiming his employer had withheld it from them.

          If anyone was in a position for it to be done properly, it was Kruidbos himself — go to Bernie and say look what I found.

          In any case he will lose, because this is not why he was fired. At the time of the trial he was already on suspension for disseminating the private information of many people from the computer data bases HE was in charge of KEEPING SECURE.

          • Xena says:


            In any case he will lose, because this is not why he was fired. At the time of the trial he was already on suspension for disseminating the private information of many people from the computer data bases HE was in charge of KEEPING SECURE.

            AHA!!! IOWs, Kruidbos retaliated for being suspended and developed the lie that the State was withholding evidence from the defense. I still ask, what evidence? Did GZ murder Trayvon because of pics on his phone? No! O’Mara and West really turned the trial into a circus. But, I suppose that’s what happens when the defendant is a clown.

  54. You all have thoughtful comments says:

  55. Elijah says:

    Hi, my name is Elijah and I adore this site and read every single comment – sometimes twice!

    When I got my 1st reply to 1 of my comments by a veteran here – felt great! Acknowledging others is key.

    Fred’s briefs have a gravitas that cuts through for me…. Crane’s as well. I’m a regular and a donater and will continue…it just keeps getting better.

    “If I am not for myself, who will be for me? And when I am only for myself, what am ‘I’? And if not now, when? Rabbi Hillel the Elder

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I enjoyed your comments yesterday, Elijah.

      Great quote of Rabbi Hillel the Elder!

      I have always liked that quote.

  56. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Welcome to all the new posters. Thanks for joining us!

    I hope more of you readers will also consider joining in our discussions.

  57. Greetings Fred

    Does anyone have any recommendations regarding what we can do to improve this site?

    1. Start using the ‘more’ tag.

    2. Consider using some template other than this one which is dire.

    You have my mail address if you want help with either of the above


    • ay2z says:

      I personally like this template, but if there are to be changes, I vote for keeping it as clean and simple as this one.– visuallyl speaking.

    • ay2z says:

      What is the ‘more’ tag? Maybe we need a thread with just some ‘how to’s because I never use the bells and whistles, like finding comments on my posts.

      Thanks, and welcome to you!

  58. Mapleblood says:

    Lurking is often a prudent and moral strategy while traversing blogdom. It offers the opportunity to understand, and gain insights, from those who hold alternate perspectives, while respecting their right to political communion.

    While lurking, I am able to tolerate some rather vile commentary by denizens from both sides of the spectrum to dig out the nuggets from their brighter lights. In such venues dialogue is impossible and choosing to engage forecloses understanding.

    • aussie says:

      Hello Mapleblood

      I agree,there are places you need to see, to see what they’re up to, but you’d not sully your computer by logging in to comment.

      There’s been a bit of over-the-top venting here, especially after the verdict, but I don’t think there’s been anything vile here. So you’re safe to join us.

  59. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    • groans says:

      Nice one, again, YAHTC!

      Thanks, and please keep sharing all these creative and talented artists who waited patiently for justice that never materialized – and, now, in the wake of the mock trial refuse to “accept” the tainted jury’s verdict and quietly “move on.”

      May songs, videos, poems, essays, speeches, blogs, books, movies (I really, really hope!), plays, paintings, sculptures, and every form of art telling Trayvon’s story only proliferate more … And More … AND MORE as time passes – and show the world that we will never, ever, EVER forget this atrocity and will keep it front and center so that no one else can forget it either.

  60. Mary Davis says:

    Wow. So touching. This child is so adorable. This says it all. Makes me want to protect her myself.

  61. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    What will our country be like when this precious child reaches adulthood?

  62. Mary Davis says:

    Hello lurkers, and welcome. I was a lurker for a long time before I started commenting. At first I felt uncomfortable, but after these wonderful people welcomed me with open arms, I started to comment more often. I have viewed all the evidence and almost everything that have been posted on this blog, but still, I cannot express my self as well as most people on this blog, but that has not stopped me from commenting.

    I have gotten into disagreements with some on here, (but not too many), Most times I see the error of my ways and apologize and just move on. If I feel very strongly about the situation, I don’t push anything, I just move on, after all, it is only my opinion.

    What I’m trying to say is, feel free to get on board. You don’t have to be so smart, You don’t have to know it all, just be yourself. You can disagree, you can have your own opinion, you can even vent. If you are having a problem in your own life, you can even talk about that. There are people from all walks of life here that will embrace you and make you feel better. Believe me you will be appreciated and not just tolerated

    However, this does come with a WARNING: This family can be addictive.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      Thank you for your comment, Mary.
      This One may have more experience with the Law, That One may have more experience with reading data. We all bring our own and unique Gifts to this blog.
      I really like what you shared/wrote. 🙂

  63. lowrydr says:

    I have been lurking here for over a year. I came here from bcclist after being chewed out by unitron for not reading enough, so I don’t post … just read. I’ve enjoyed the comments including the off topic ones. I live one town over from where Fogen grew up and am thankful to have never met him.

    Hope to see some of you at the August 24th rally in DC. I thought of searching the crowd for Malisha’s sign. I don’t know if there will be booths or what have you.

    Keep up the great job! Thanks Fred & Crane.


    • Malisha says:

      lowrydr, this week I’ll figure out how to manage getting together with Leatherheads when I go to DC. Stay in touch on the blog here.

      I have the sign where I can grab it at a moment’s notice.

    • aussie says:

      Hi Lowrydr

      he chewed everyone out, don’t mind him; he’s been kicked off here for that and bcclist sort of died as the owner lost interest.

      If people are going to meet up in person, surely you can trust each other with email addresses, too. Perhaps Fred could pass those around to the interested parties, so you can set up meeting spots.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Sometimes I like to look at a poster’s name.

        With “unitron”, I saw “ron unit” and “ron nit u”

        • 2dogsonly says:

          Unitron is just a very precise somewhat impatient but brilliant poster.
          Bcc.list insisted you first list your evidence and then your opinion.Very brilliant and had no trolls because, IMHO, he required evidence first and then your thoughts.

          Whonoze has picked it up and has some very interesting work concerning GZ,s bloody nose picture and his actual car to pedestrian stalking.Tchiopoici used a software program called Blender to bring it into real world, 3 D, for us, like myself, who are spatially challenged.

          It’s just a more scientific blog and of course both types are brilliant as it 3 chicks politico.

  64. Shada524 says:

    Prof…I am guilty as charged. I have been a lurker for more than a year. I only have a few comments to my credit but I am here daily. I don’t really know why I don’t comment more because I’m not a shy person by nature although the commenters here are so knowledgeable in so many areas it can be intimidating so I stay in the shallow end of the pool.
    I too followed the Zimmerman case from the beginning. I signed the petition to have him investigated for Trayvon’s murder and never looked back. I read all the evidence and have seen every one of LLMPapa’s and Teeslaw’s videos…how anyone could watch those and not find him guilty is beyond me. I am still trying to come to terms with the Zimmerman verdict and there is still a lot of pain and anger inside of me. Every time I think I’m getting past it something happens or some ignorant person says something and I’m back at that place of anger. I ache for Sybrina and Tracy and they are constantly in my prayers.
    The NG verdict gutted me. I know the fight isn’t over but some days it’s seems hopeless. I have a nephew Trayvon’s age and this country frightens me. I look at him and I see so much potential. I see his future. Too many people look at him and just see skin color. A useless thug because he wears hoodies, says the N word, and listens to hip hop. They don’t know him. They don’t know that he loves to read and stays in the library. They don’t know he loves math and wants to be an engineer. They don’t know that this world scares him so he writes in his journal about his life experiences. I look at him and I see Trayvon. So when I read the comments in some of the blogs out there I get so angry. They didn’t know Trayvon and the system allowed the defense to paint a picture of who he was. It’s beyond frustrating.

    I promise to be more than a lurker because I really do feel at home here.

    • aussie says:

      Welcome Shada, stick around.

      There are a few people here with legal backgrounds, but most of us learned from the Professor, so we all became “instant experts”.

      The same way, the combined experiences of everyone here will develop into a wider knowledge that may show the path for moving on. Stick around and be a part of it.

    • lady2soothe says:

      Hi and welcome… Are you the Shada from HP?

      • Shada524 says:

        Yep Lady that’s me. I haven’t really been posting a lot on HP because the racists comments are just too much.

        • MedicineBear says:

          Many of us are “HP refugees” (me included). Good to see you here!

        • lady2soothe says:

          I noticed your name right away (back a few months ago; a friend on mine’s granddaughter’s nick name is Shada Mae)….

          I was with HP from Day One of Trayvon and the only reason I keep going back is there are a lot of people I’ve met along this road and I don’t want to abandon them altogether. But here as you know is sanctuary. I don’t comment here a lot because by the time I finish reading all the wonderful, insightful, thought provoking comments, my words seem small and insignificant. I enjoy reading rather than posting for the most part and thank God, I have no need to defend or argue.

          Anyway glad you’re joined us as you’ve made some fabulous comments on HP.

        • @Shada534:

          I remember you from HP too! I try not to wander over there to much these days. I comment on other topics of interest. The racists are only to glad that TM is dead and that is murderer got off! They need to take their heads out of their asses!

          Personally, the only headline I wish to see, is when Fogen gets his just desserts. He is going to get exactly what he deserves. He thinks he is free and clear. My son was telling me that their are gang-bangers who want to get to him. Bloods, Crips, MS-13, Mexican gangs (Who Fogen disparaged on MYSPACE). I asked him how does he know this?? He stated to me that this is common knowledge on the social networks.I told him not to give to much credence to those remors, and that Fogen will mess up again as he is a screw up of the first order.

          Fogen cruelly shot and kiled this kid and his friends and family got up there and lied about Fogen screamingwhen we all know it was not Fogen screaming bloody murder. Nothing angers me more than that. This trial was a farce to placate the black community and to appease the Martin Family. What a fake trial! They will all get what is coming to them one by one.

    • 2dogsonly says:

      You know who else wears hoodies? I believe he made 2 million dollars one day last week, Mark Zuckenberg.
      and lord knows how many people wear white Nike tennis shoes and camel cords but that clearly thuggish attire is always left out of reports of proper attire for burglars when robbing a home on a Sunday evening at 7pm.

  65. barbershoptalker says:

    Good morning Prof. and other responders.

    Yes I am one who through this site, has followed this case from beginning to it’s unbelievable end. I’m glad that you opened up with this invite, because I was one who felt that this was a family type site and I had come in a little late to dip in with my two cents, but now that you have opened the door, I feel more comfortable speaking.

    I live in Florida just a couple of mile away from where this tragedy happened and I can tell you that it just don’t stop in Stanford county.
    For me this was a double wham!!! One punch that was felt two ways.
    I am here in Jacksonville, Fla. home of the very prosecution team that failed to prove plan and simple that this was murder two or a crime of any kind, yet here in town that same team of professionals have yet to lose a case of the same type. (when it’s a black person on trial)……I’m just saying….

    I am trying my very best to not point fingers or lie blame or be bias with my thoughts, but as a black man myself I find it hard to understand how they can let Zimmerman slip away and young black men here in town go to jail for far less.

    • aussie says:

      Hello Barbershoptalker

      “a family type site” — what a lovely way to describe a community.

      It’s a huge family, with branches on every continent, so there is certainly room for you to join in.
      We were wondering, actually, what type of cases the prosecution team was used to winning. Would you be able to find out more? they say Bernie only lost 2 cases, can you find out what they were?

    • Xena says:

      @barbershoptalker. First, welcome!!

      When I heard Bernie say this is only the second murder trial he has lost, I discerned him saying there was jury tampering. Then, Juror B37’s literary agent announced that she was working on getting a book deal and the reasons the jury found GZ not guilty included “due to the manner in which he was charged.”

      That took me back to remembering when Juror B37 referred to rallies as “riots.” Juror B37 like many GZ supporters, is of the opinion that he was charged because of “riots” and not because of Corey’s investigation.

      From there, I watched voir dire of all potential jurors the first 3 days and scanned the other days, finding that O’Mara gave B37 instructions unlike he did with other potential jurors.

      Juror B29 pretty much confirmed that her desire to clarify manslaughter was denied by the foreperson who failed to provide the judge with more specific questions. According to Juror B37, they sat in the jury room for 30 minutes waiting on B29 to cast another vote instead.

      Then too, when the question came before the judge to clarify manslaughter, we have Frank Taaffe telling Nancy Grace and Fox News that he had “insight” that there was 5 to 1 in favor of not guilty.

      Forgive me for going on and on with this, but IMHO, it would have made no difference how to prosecution proceeded because Juror B37 was given instructions on how to convince other jurors what they could not consider during deliberations. It’s all there during her voir dire.

      • ay2z says:

        and Zena, Don West told the black woman interviewer, “we got the jury we wanted”.

        Why didn’t the prosecution get rid of this ringer??

        • ay2z says:

          Why do I do that, too early to not do phonetic name typing…. again, sorry Xena.

          • Xena says:

            @ay2z. LOL!! It’s okay. There’s no one here named Zena with a “Z” so I’ll answer to it too. 🙂

        • Xena says:


          Why didn’t the prosecution get rid of this ringer??

          That’s a good question. It might have been Corey or one of the commentators who said something about having only so many pre-empts and the prosecution wanted to save as many as possible for the really bad jurors.

          Even if prosecutors didn’t pick-up on O’Mara giving her instructions, referring to rallies as “riots” should have been a dead give-a-way that Juror B37 is not impartial.

          • riisey007 says:

            Mark Garagos gave Angela Corey fits about that witness and he said that she should be ashamed for letting this juror in. I was really pissed at Garagos during the trial when he said Angela Corey should have been fired but after the trial when the gloves were off, he never backed down and explained his reasoning behind it, she tried to explain away this juror but Mark wasn’t having it. He said he was not Sunday morning quarterbacking and he has said this all throughout the trial. He actually made a lot of sense. He said once that technically all white jury was appointed the trial was over. He said he defends AA’s all the time and he knows what type of box that certain people look through. he said there was no way to get a guilty verdict from that juror and they would never see Trayvon as their child. He told her there were ways around not selecting that juror. I believe the jurors were pre selected and they just threw the hispanic lady in for good measure.

          • Xena says:


            I believe the jurors were pre selected and they just threw the hispanic lady in for good measure.

            B37 was definitely a plant. My reasons for believing this are posted her:

            O’Mara’s voir dire of her was unlike that of other jurors. I’ve gone over the voir dire of B29, E40, and B76 and cannot detect anything suspicious. Still have B51 and E6 to watch again.

    • Judy75201 says:

      I’m so glad you posted! It is valuable to us to have the perspectives of those who actually live in the area and can feel the local culture.

      • barbershoptalker says:

        Judge rules Jacksonville woman can’t claim Stand Your Ground in stabbing of boyfriend

        The woman must now be tried for second-degree murder in the man’s death

        This is what makes me wonder.
        In this case her boyfriend drug her across the yard, hit her in the eye three times (just as Zimmerman says he was beat)
        but here is what the judge and prosecutors (Corey’s team) says:

        But Hulsey said Goodman failed to prove Stand Your Ground applied. During a hearing in November, prosecutors argued that Goodman couldn’t have been afraid for her life at the time of the stabbing because her brother and a family friend had repeatedly hit Norman and he was not fighting back.

        But here’s the part that they probably will take her down with, that they could not do with Zimmerman who I think did the same exact thing by leaving his car and chasing a guy.

        Hulsey (the judge) agreed with prosecutors who argued that Goodman also made a conscious decision to leave her house and head toward Norman, even though he was not a threat to her at that time.

        So do one have the right to do so, and the other do not?

        • Xena says:

          @barbershoptalker. When I first heard of the Trevor Dooley case, I thought that SYG applied because witnesses said that Dooley was walking back to his house when David James came up behind him, knocking him to the ground.

          When the manslaughter verdict came in, I read the jury foreman’s interview for how they reached that verdict. (My paraphrase) If not but for the fact that Dooley left his garage with a loaded gun and approached James for mouthing off to him, the two would not have come into physical contact.

          It was my position that the jury in GZ’s case would find the same; i.e., if not but for the fact that GZ got out of his truck to follow Trayvon the two would not have come into physical contact.

          Some of those who commented on my blog raised that race played a role in how the Dooley jury decided, and it would also play a role in how GZ’s case was decided. I continued to say let’s wait and see because the same facts of the initial aggressor apply to the law. If Dooley was the initial aggressor for leaving his garage, then GZ is the initial aggressor for leaving his vehicle.

          I was wrong. Since the verdict in GZ’s case I’ve updated the chart of comparison that accompanies the article.

          • aussie says:

            Yeah but the prosecution really messed up. They did nothing to prove Zimmerman did the approaching, even though that is the whole crux of the case.

            They went along with the defence’s view that the whole thing is only over the last 90 seconds, and doesn’t matter how they got there. Which is BS.

          • Xena says:

            @aussie. I remember during closing argument that the prosecution said, “This is not a case of stand your ground. This is a case of stay in your car.” Off hand, I don’t remember the prosecution driving in that point during trial, but what witness were they going to ask? Maybe Serino? Singleton?

            I truly wished that the prosecution had taken Serino and Singleton through GZ’s NEN call and also when Serino told GZ that asking the cop to call him for his location signified he was still looking for the kid. They also missed the opportunity of asking why Singleton told GZ that he had not said previously why he got out of his car. That was something GZ omitted from his statements and the re-enactment.

            The prosecution presumed that the jury would listen and watch GZ’s recorded statements and in fact, Bernie asked them to put the NEN call next to the re-enactment to see the discrepancies.

            However, during his voir dire of Juror B37, O’Mara instructed her to “advise” the other jurors that if it didn’t come from the witness stand, that it couldn’t be considered. GZ’s recorded statements did not come from the witness stand and in fact, Juror B37 told Anderson Cooper that she didn’t think much about GZ’s statements.

          • barbershoptalker says:

            I agree Xena, what all of this has done for me is got me more into trying to understand the wording of this SYG law, For someone like myself who is not a lawyer (and that’s why I love this site) I find it very difficult to find common ground in it, because similar cases have different results that only a trained eye can could have found the loop hole in the same exact words to use one way or the other to their advantage. That’s where you guys have helped me a lot with your explanations and what I have deemed self study tools. I think if nothing else at least the wording in this law needs to be addressed.

          • Xena says:


            I think if nothing else at least the wording in this law needs to be addressed.

            IMO, Florida’s SYG law gives citizens approval to start and escalate confrontation whether verbal or physical, that places themselves and others in position to fear bodily harm or death. Then, it tells the initiator that they must retreat before using deadly force. Then it tells the initiator that if they cannot retreat, they can use deadly force on the person they confronted.

            Seems backwards to me because that same law tells the non-aggressor that they have no duty to retreat. The person confronted has just as much right to disable their attacker from continuing the confrontation, which puts the attacker in position of being unable to retreat.

            In GZ’s case, Trayvon ran. When GZ confronted him (and Juror B37 admits that GZ confronted Trayvon), pursuant to SYG law, Trayvon had no duty to retreat — but Juror B37 said that Trayvon should have ran again — as if he could and had somewhere safe to immediately run to without GZ on his heels.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          White people get to start stuff and blacks do not.

        • riisey007 says:

          Isn’t that something?!! Zimmerman did just that, he made a conscious effort after Mrtin ran to follow behind him…

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:


      I can see that you are going to add a lot to our site with your Jacksonville, FL perspective, barbershoptalk.

      Please comment often!

    • MedicineBear says:

      You’ve probably seen (and lived) much that has been dismissed-discounted-denied. There may not have been righteous Justice in this case, but that just makes the Trayvon case ICONIC.

      Aren’t we all (those with eyes to see) shockingly awakened to the devastating depth and breadth of the stinking gangrenous cancer of racism-sexism-bullying-corruption-oppression that lies beneath a thin patina of “best country in the world” faux-patriotic pride?

      I, for one–even as cynical as I have become, had no idea how bad institutionalized-societal racism-sexism-otherism truly is here. YOU probably well know it because you see it and live it every day. Now the ugly American truth is laid bare for All to see. For those with eyes to see.

      This iconic trial has pulled back the curtain. Those of us who didn’t turn away in denial have been devastated by facing the ugly truth. I, one soul, was devastated. And in my soul roils a primal scream that is intolerant of the age-old injustice-inhumanity-oppression. There are hundreds of millions of devastated souls resonating with mine in the spirit of righteous Justice, Healing, and Humanity. Eventually those numbers add up to heal and transform our collective tribe!

    • 2dogsonly says:

      I too live in Jax. Bernie never mentions the other case he lost and I will bet it was the Brenton Butler case. The documentary ” Murder On A Sunday Morning won Academy Award in 2001. Not guilty verdict was returned on 45 minutes and Jax. Detectives knew Brenton was innocent almost immediately after they arrested him.

      He was a black teen returning home when he was arrested. His parents weren’t notified and when he refused to confess, they called the enforcer in at 3 AM to take him to the woods and beat him. This was Nat Glover’s son who I believe was our sheriff and a black man who later ran for mayor. Nat Glover was very popular and a very decent man.

      You can buy DVD off of Amazon or maybe Netflix but read about it on Wiki. He was defended by two public defenders and of course detectives went to prison, all 3. City just this past week paid Brenton for civil rights violation.

      It’s just a wonderful delightful and tragic story. French filmmakers did amazing job.

      • barbershoptalker says:

        @ 2dogsonly yes I remember that case as well, they bullied the young man into a confession. when he had never been to the area that the murder took place. I just don’t think Angela Corey and company was in house yet, I think that was Harry Shorstein and his crew, as a matter of fact I think he was the one that fired Angela Corey from his team.

        I want to use the Cristian Fernandez case: the 12 year old that they tried to charge as an adult and give him life in prison without parole for killing his toddler brother by accident but Angela argued that he knew exactly what he was doing. They actually won the case, but it was overturned on appeal and he was then charged as A juvenile and elgible for parole at the age of 21 he is now about 16 years old. I’m not sure if that’s what they are counting as a lose though.

        • cielo62 says:

          Barbershop- I actually agree with the charge. Fernandez had been extremely abused along with his teen mom who had also been abused. In the regular system, this boy would have offended again because he would have received no special help. But the Case’s notoriety guaranteed that powerful people gave a shit. So now he’s getting the true help he needs. How sad that “the system” only works when shamed and scolded. Otherwise he would have been warehoused, received no help and would have killed again.

          • barbershoptalker says:

            @Cielo62 although I must agree with you that the kid did need help and savior from the conditions in which he was in, however I just did not think that the answer was to take him out of one bad condition only to put him in another three times as worst, which was adult state prison at the age of 12 where they would have torn this kid apart with no mercy. Corey was trying to make a point vs. saving the kid, that’s all I’m saying. As I’ve said that’s what made the Trayvon case twice as much interesting to see the outcome because Corey was the prosecutor, and I wanted to see if see would do some of the same win at all cost methods that she uses here on our youth, and to a small degree she did with the withholding of evidence (and then fired the guy that told), not that I’m mad at her ….. well at least she’s consistent. Still win at all cost.

  66. Malisha says:

    About accepting criticism poorly (and actually WHO CARES how one accepts it, the real beef is usually with how one reacts to it) there is a certain level of outrage and indignation on this site that is, IMO, essential for us (People Like Us, that is, who care about our country’s unfortunate current descent into enhanced dishonest racism and easy rhetoric, hereinafter referred to as PLUs) to keep breathing.

    If we do not frequently express this indignation and outrage we might really do something we will regret.

    Here comes my inevitable story: (When my kid was little there were always a gang of kids around playing so I called them “the kids” and now, lots of my stories have “the kids” in them although I had only one.) So, I’d teach them that if somebody hurt somebody else, only the conduct of the perp was open to criticism. I said, “We’re not gonna tell anybody how to react BACK if someone else HURTS them on purpose, so don’t HURT anybody on purpose.”

    Everybody was allowed to ask for help if someone else was acting wrong or even bullying them, grabbing from them, insulting them, the whole gamut. You could ask for help and you would get it. But if you hauled off and smacked them, YOU were on the hot spot, not them, and you didn’t get to say, “But he …”

    This piece of advice came because my own kid was playing with his friend at a game he learned somewhere (godnozewhere!) called “chicken” where you punched each other successively harder on the arms or legs and whoever yelled first lost. I had never heard of this game. They played it while the parents were cleaning up after a picnic. My kid punched his friend HARD and the friend flipped him up in the air and he fell a few feet away — no broken bones thank God but hurt enough to cry and run for help. When she was explaining why she did it, HE cried, “I didn’t hurt her THAT bad!”) I said, “when you HURT someone YOU don’t get to say how bad it is; THEY get to say how bad it is!” and I forbad that rotten game of course.

    Here’s what has happened to us in the course of the Trayvon Martin Murder Case:

    We heard about a guy who set up a neighborhood watch and killed an unarmed Black kid who was not doing anything wrong.

    We heard the police were not arresting him because they said it was self-defense.

    We heard the parents of the dead kid had hired lawyers.

    THEN we heard the NEN tape!

    Anybody listening to that tape suddenly realized the guy went out there to hunt down some “N” and bring him in, and Trayvon Martin was unlucky enough to be the one.

    Right here, we got hurt. We couldn’t look at Fogen as “a dangerous, irresponsible fool” any more and we couldn’t look at the police behavior as “dumb fat know-nothing donut-wolfing cop” behavior any more. Right then, we were hurt and we were reacting as injured people react, in ways that the abusers love to criticize.

    Then things got progressively worse, and our injuries got worse. We heard a tape of a co-worker who said Fogen made his life miserable and then talked his way out of it with ease. We heard that he was a woman-beater and probable child molester. We heard his lawyers fussing and whimpering about his broken nose and we saw, on Hannity, a display of evil we could not mistake for “irresponsibility” and his lawyer sat there by his side. We heard the interview with Erwin and we saw the “reenactment” which was not a reenactment but a fantasy. We saw him lie about his injuries and publish the boo hoo pictures and we saw attacks on his parents and DeeDee and on HIM (being compared with every 17-to-19-year-old Black criminal in this country of 300,000,000 people!) and it was just too much. If we reacted with too much irritation in somebody’s opinion it was because we were irritable. Every day produced a new outrage and the racists in this country were just coming unhinged in their gory hunt for new victims.

    When occasionally people jumped into this blog saying things that seemed either supportive of “rights” Fogen had to be judged more kindly than he was judged, or critical of some of the analyses we did of the evidence, I grant you that some responses looked like a cloud of hornets ready to bite a bear to death.

    But when the case was “over” — and it never will be — what we have is a real, horrifying, unsettling, peace-destroying, irreversible, undeniable, inexorable NO JUSTICE. And that is why not every one of us is acting like Emily Post.

    But we should bring more people into the conversation. We won’t hurt you. :mrgreen:

  67. cielo62 says:

    masonblue~ I truly thank you for all your hardnwork. I have learned a great deal, while also crying and screaming a great deal. “Meeting” all kinds of people here has really expanded my view of humanity. I agree it’s become a community with all of it’s joys, pains and dysfunctions. I love it. 🙂


  68. William Walton says:

    Prof: I geneally think this site is great, I have learned a great deal about law and I hope you have learned something about how physical science fits into the whole picture. I also appreciate Crane’s understanding of the practice of Medicine including autopsies. What at first turned me off from this blog was that when I offered the theory that both were standing I had many come back that GZ was a bouncer, knew how to throw people down, and I did not know what i was talking about. I had talked to a Texas DPS officer who stated that protocal states that for law enforcement personnel, etc. you do not throw people down because of possible lawsuits for personal injury. Was blogged back that I did not need to talk to theTexas DPS. IMO, I would think they would have a better understanding than I do. I started to withdraw from this blog but decided I also had a right to comment. I still believe from a scientific standpoint that GZ had his gun out loaded while stalking TM, he grabed TM from behind in the front on the hoodie, turned him around, and shot him while TM was pulling away trying to escape. It is very logic my Dear Watson. Prof, all in all, the blog is exceptionally educational and it allows us to debate educationally with each other. It would be interesting if you could get LMMPAPA to produce a video of what I have stated of what I believe happened that night.

    • MichelleO says:

      Sorry that you were turned off to this community by the replies of a few people. Many people have stated here and on other blogs, that both murderer and victim were standing during the murder.

      I was turned off that people framed Rachel Jeantel as dumb, slow, and stupid—- and as a person with graves disease (goiter) because of her obesity.

      I quickly understood this to be the successful campaign of the media’s presentation of black people as undesirables, who can’t possibly be human beings unless they are shades lighter, model thin, and speaking the Queen’s English.

      Anyone else can speak with a dialect but black people. Anyone can be bi- or tri-lingual but black people. If black people are fat, speak another language, or slow and shy to speak—-call the cops or the psychiatric ward because something is wrong with them.

      As for myself, I quickly understood that this was a frightened teenager who had reluctantly come face to face with the killer of her friend and the entire world, after she had been bullied by racists for over one year.

      I was disgusted, but I did not leave.

      • William Walton says:

        As I stated in a previous blog, Rachael is from a home of ones who lived in the Islands of the Carribean. When with Amoco, I spent a lot of time in Trinidad WI because of their oil production off the Southeast Coast. Even though they spoke the Queen’s English, it would take me several days to come up to speed in understanding them. Had the same problem when traveling to London. The Brits do not pronounce the H. Therefore, three is pronounced tree, so one from the US has to decipher if the discussion is about numbers or a forest. With regards to Rachael, I took her to be a typical Island girl. The Carribean Island people are Very Laid Back, speak slowly, but are a very weary of outsiders. The interesting thing about the culture is that they accept everyone no matter of race, nationality, gender, etc. Had a seafood BBQ put on by a couple who ran Angie & Bil’s Cantina and invited some of the people from the oil treatment plant. Most were black. Unlike here, the blacks did not ask are you sure you want to invite me because of my color, no it was known that it was accepted that all these Island People were equal regardless of race, gender, color, or age, It was interesting to note that on the island if you were a guy no matter what color, race, age, etc, you were referred to as a boy. Same went if you were female, you were referred to as a girl. The U.S. should pick up on some of the ways that these Island people think and live. Instead of criticizing Rachael, let the American public look up to her and try to be like her in accepting everyone.

      • abbyj1 says:

        MichelleO, Well said. The biases against Rachel rubbed me raw, and there was little question that the effort to denigrate her was race based. They tried to dismantle that proud, young woman any way they could. And then West & his two daughters had the audacity to post “celebrity ice cream cones” over Rachel’s so-called “stupidity.” Does hatred get more pointed or mean—or disgraceful—than that? I, too, was disgusted. You will never know how much I admire Rachel.

    • Jasmine says:

      I thought they were both standing too and Tray was trying to pull away without success. His legs and the was they were positioned seemed to go along with this theory. So I do agree with you. There was no way Tray was on top of Fogen when he was shot, it just doesn’t compute given the track of the bullet as well as the misalignment of the bullet holes in the hoodies and the one in Tray’s chest . I thought that LMPapa did do a video of this and if I can find it I will let you know but I am pretty sure it was there.

    • Trained Observer says:

      @William Walton — I’ve always felt Fogen had his gun out from the get-go … he being way too chicken-shit to pursue in any other manner. Besides, that’s how it’s always shown on the old-time cops and robbers TV shows that no doubt captured Fogen’s attention.

      I don’t know about the rest, but your theory makes as much sense as anything else. The State needed to pick a theory, any logical theory, and drive it on home. It didn’t.

      Am still reeling from the acquittal.

      • Xena says:

        I considered whether GZ had the gun clipped to his tactical flashlight and during the pushing, he dropped it and that is when witnesses said they saw arms “flailing” because GZ and Trayvon were both going for it but for different reasons. Funny that GZ omitted saying when, how and why he dropped the flashlight and although he admitted to having it, no fingerprints were found on it.

        It was as if it had been wiped clean and maybe it was to remove GSR.

        • pat deadder says:

          Xena On the other blog you you talked about what you thought Trayvon’s route was.It takes me awhile to get things.Are you saying you think Trayvon ran from TTL to RVC.fogen saw this and followed him from there.As far as not having keys maybe the door wasn’t locked or maybe he was going to call Chad to let him in idk.Another thing the clubhouse videos.I did see fogen lurking but found the rest difficult to understand.Didn’t a prosecution witness tell omara the tape was off by 18 minutes.I just so want Trayvon’s parents to win a civil suite but it won’t bring their child back and NBC needs to win theirs. fogen has to pay for this crime somehow.I don’t have much faith in DOJ actually no faith in any of them. .What happen to the bodyguard company who was suing for 27000.
          I have so many questions like who was the LE I think chief of police who fogen helped get rid of and why.I feel so angry because this killer might get away with everything and his wife as well.

          • Malisha says:

            Chief Brian Tooley, Fogen helped get rid of him.
            Something going on in the Dept. (re Sherman Ware case) and Tooley actually stood up in public and said, “This blindsided me; I’m going to get to the bottom of it and we’re gonna clean house” whereupon it all got blamed on HIM and he was wiped out in a quick minute.

          • Xena says:

            @pat deadder.

            Xena On the other blog you you talked about what you thought Trayvon’s route was.It takes me awhile to get things.Are you saying you think Trayvon ran from TTL to RVC.

            I think that Trayvon took the dog walk. The dog walk goes from the “T” to TTL. Trayvon would then walk around the corner to the front the house, which is on RVC. IIRC, it would be the second house from the end of that block or rather, around the corner.

            fogen saw this and followed him from there.

            GZ told Singleton and Serino that he was on RVC when told “We don’t need you to do that. He also said that he wasn’t following but going in the same direction. GZ assumed that Trayvon was going to the back gate. He would not need to follow behind Trayvon, rather, he was going to the back gate by taking RVC; i.e., in the same direction.

            Here, I’ll embed the video I did again because it’s easier to see than to tell.

      • ay2z says:

        Of course he did. He got it out when he put his cell phone away if not before. Minimally he would have it out of the holster and in HIS pocket (he noticced Tray had something maybe weapon with hands in hoodie pocket, so, Mr. Safety conscious would get the gun out and hide it in an easy to reach place.

        And fogen was not afraid, at lease his skewed sense of right and wrong and common sense, told he go get this guy and become a hero with the neighborhood, the NW locally, and a real good guy hero proving his value.

        (Xena’s theory is making more and more sense as we see fogen gaining ‘On The Road’ fame in Fl and Tx.

      • William Walton says:

        TO. agree with you. The theory encompasses every thing observed from the lack of grass stains on GZ’s back to the grass lodges in the tiips of GZ’s boots. Some of this should have been brought up at trial.

    • Judy75201 says:

      I, too, believer both were standing, that fogen grabbed Trayvon’s hoodie in the chest area to keep him from getting away, and shot him while the hoodie was still stretched out. It was a heinous and evil murder.

      • pat deadder says:

        Judy75201 It was a heinous and evil murder. Absolutely and the people in power don’t give a shit.So if he murders someone else then what.They sould be charged with aiding and abetting.

      • cielo62 says:

        Judy~ I’ve said that since the beginning, both standing. Trayvon trying desperately to escape and pulling away.


    • THE Shadow says:

      My God, but that is beautiful.

    • THE Shadow says:

      He did do a video. And when you see it you will ask “why” did the prosecution not do the same.

  69. You all have thoughtful comments says:

  70. Trained Observer says:

    Likely not possible … but I do wish this site had an edit button so we commenters could fix our own typos.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      Oh, man. I typed a response to you, but, apparently forgot to press Submit.
      But, sometimes when that happens, I tell myself the universe was telling me to think about it some more. Ha.
      I too like to observe. May I ask what your training has been? I studied communications in college, back when dinosaurs roamed…and I am a natural people watcher.

      • Deborah, I started in publishing in the early 70s, so if you’re a dinosaur, I guess I’m a blue-green alga. I have a degree in English lit, which (barely) qualifies me to serve burgers and recommend fries. However, I was lucky enough to get hired to create the first personal computer magazine, and since then I’ve always had work. It was fun to write, edit, design and produce for magazines, and I kept learning about new technologies. I was also lucky enough to reach retirement age about the same time most print media (and thus editorial jobs with newspapers and magazines) disappeared. Now I do a little freelance work for projects that interest me, and I have time to pay attention to legal cases that affect the politics of the country.

        • Deborah Moore says:

          That sounds wonderful, Linda. I’m very glad for you.
          I enjoy stories about how others are spending their lives after Spinning at 90 miles an hour for 50 or 60 years.
          And, since I put a lot of weight on Context, I think that folks who’ve been around the block a few times definitely have something important to say.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I’ll second that – editing is good. It’s most difficult to see your own errors until after you click post.

  71. Good morning. Lurker here. I’ve followed this blog (or “community”) for about a year and have kept my peace.

    I particularly appreciate hearing from the legal experts among you. I’m not a lawyer, so I have nothing to offer in that realm. I am an experienced technical writer/editor/fact checker, and my instinct when reading is to constantly weigh statements of fact or interpretation. If I’m being paid to criticize, I do. If not, I offer my contrary views only if I feel they’re welcome.

    I followed the Zimmerman case very closely, reading all the available evidence, listening to all the tapes, studying all the maps, diagrams, etc., and forming my own opinion about the case. I certainly agree with the overall tone of this blog — Zimmerman is a dangerous, irresponsible fool — but I often silently question the logic of posts I read.

    I have noticed that when a poster, particularly an “outsider,” questions an interpretation offered by an established community member, the community tends to respond with anger and accusations regarding the questioner’s motives, knowledge, intelligence, or morality.

    In other words, I think the community as a whole sometimes responds poorly to criticism.

    I don’t want to bother the group with “me too” comments, but I haven’t felt comfortable offering argument either. So I lurk.


    • Deborah Moore says:

      Linda, it’s been my experience that most humans respond to criticism poorly.
      But, I have found at this site folks are much more open to discussion of any kind.
      Your experience may be different.

    • aussie says:

      Hello Linda, good to see you emerge into the light.

      We have had some arguments. Especially during the trial, some of us did jump on those who kept crying “the fix is in”. Turns out they were right, but often not on the grounds they were claiming. It was a volatile and emotional time for everyone, and everyone’s settled back to being friends again.

      At one stage we had a lot of newcomers, refugees from other blogs that had turned bad, who were high on emotion and lower on factual details. So some did have theories that didn’t match the evidence.

      If you have a different take on something, do feel free to say so. We all learn from looking at ALL sides of something.

  72. Golden Rule says:

    Guilty as charged!!! I’ve been lurking around since I found the site. I was able to keep up with everything going on and love the videos and the level of respect people here have for each other. Like many here, I was very disappointed with the prosecutors in this case which I thought, like the Dunn case coming up, was a simple open and shut case. There was so much evidence and witnesses discussed here that were never presented. I’ve learned a lot, not only from the knowledgeable professor but also from his students. Thank you so much for letting me “lurk” around.

    • aussie says:

      Hello Golden Rule.

      All you need to do, to start, is just make a comment on any video that particularly grabs you somehow.

      The big problem here was, we could all see from the evidence that the verdict should be guilty. We didn’t count on how terribly twisted the jury would be, even though we thought there might be 1 or 2 stealth jurors on it.

      Let’s hope the Dunn case works out better.

      • Drew says:

        It won’t.

        According to most scared white people people, TM was a “wannabe gangster” (who was walking home with candy to hang out with his little brother), and GZ was a hero for putting him in his place after TM decided to savagely beat him 20 feet from his home.

        In the eyes of a Scared White, JD and his friends actually behaved MUCH worse:

        1) Playing loud “thug” music (you think this word choice will be limited to the idiot Dunn – I guarantee it becomes A Thing among white YouTube commenters, and Bill Cosby)

        2) Talking back

        3) Refusing to turn the music down

        4) Turning it louder

        If TM asked to be stalked because he was walking around looking suspicious(ly black) and being a “wannabe thug”, then JD and friends straight up DESERVED to be shot at for acting like true thugs, what with their loud music and dark skin.

        Not to mention, the gas station was most likely paved.

        • Malisha says:

          A Black friend of mine went to the shooting range for the first time in her 50-year life; she has three sons. She has told them to get armed.

          • THE Shadow says:

            See, this is what corruption does. It’s a terrible thing when a Mother has to tell her children to arm their self.

          • @Malisha:

            Hello everyone! I have been so busy these days that I have not posted here in a while. I have been so very sad for Sybrina and Tracey. Over 50 years since Emmett Till’s murderers were acquitted and here we have another case with the exact same outcome IMO. None of those women on the jury could identify with Sybrina. They don’t feel the pain or being a black mother who fears for the life of her son. They didn’t care period, and neither did the DA. They did not expose the SPD for their corruption, nor did they expose Fogen and his phone calls, text messages or e-mails when they claimed they were to explosive to release prior to trial.I blame them all fo rhow this trial tunred out! They are all full of it, as far as I am concerned!

            I want to thank you and the Professor for your wonderful, insightful comments this last year and a half. I do not blame your black friend, Malisha one bit. I am afraid for our black males, my eight nephews and for blacks period who reside in states who have SYG. I have an 18 year old son and 2 older daughtters myself. I am also an Army veteran and can use a gun very well. I have encourged them all to learn to shoot, and not to set foot in the Apartheid state of Florida where black males can be legally lynched by white racists who will then holler, “SYB” and the jury will find them, “Not Guilty” based on the fact that they do not like black people, and they always assume black males are a “Criminally Inclined thugs.”

    • abbyj1 says:

      Hey, Golden Rule. Nice to meet you!

  73. Good morning, everyone. Although i don’t post too often, I try to read everything. Thanks Prof. and Crane Station for providing such a wonderful outlet. I think the site as it stands is great.

  74. Deborah Moore says:

    Good Morning, Leatherheads.
    During the course of the trial, someone here used the term Leatherheads. I think it was someone named opera carla, if I remember correctly. Maybe someone before her started that, but I use it with much fondness.
    I’ve only been here a few months but am enjoying this site very much. Folks have been warm, inviting and accepting. I think that Fred Leatherman’s effusive and patient manner trickles down through the comments and encourages kind and thoughtful questions and discussion.
    Crane Station’s eclectic and passionate heart comes through loud and clear in her comments and writings too.
    This is a super site to visit. (And, for those of you who have reached out to me here, I offer a huge thank you. And, I offer hugs to everyone.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Hi Deborah,

      and I have been enjoying your comments and good heart!

      x2 on all that you have said about Crane and our professor!

      • Deborah Moore says:

        I enjoy the links, video and music, that you often share. I’m one who like to share links also. And, I adore your handle. What a great way to send a positive and affirming thought to so many folks. Five words that automatically encourage commenters.
        You, my dear, are a joy.

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:

          Right back at you, Deborah!


          • Deborah Moore says:

            I think I’m going to take all these good vibes and go take a walk around the neighborhood. Such a beautiful cool Sunday morning.
            Take good care. 🙂

    • William Walton says:

      Deborah, Good post, Leatherheads was a term applied to Marine Pilots during WWII. They were hell raisers and very excellent fighting pilots.

      • Deborah Moore says:

        Thanks for reminding me of that. I was watching Paths Of Glory the other night and remembered watching a lot of the WWII movies with my pop, who served the US Army as an anti-aircraft member. I even have a photo of him in his bunker/machine. I’m not very fluent in war lingo, can you tell?
        As I watched the movie, I wondered how those scenes, stories and the talks Daddy and I engaged in, influenced my attitude about war, helping others, compassion.

      • bettykath says:

        My dad was a Marine. I thought they were called leathernecks. Was leatherheads specific to the pilots?

        • Trained Observer says:

          My husband was a U.S. Marine out of Camp Pendleton — they were/are called jarheads.

          • abbyj1 says:

            TO, Jarheads! BTW, that movie, “Jarheads” with Jake Gyllenhaal was wonderful. If you haven’t had a chance to see it, you might find it very interesting.

          • Trained Observer says:

            abbyj1 — Haven’t seen it (frankly, didn’t know it existed) … thanks for the heads up.

        • aussie says:

          Pilots used to wear those leather flying helmets with the flaps that come down to cover the ears.

    • Xena says:

      @Deborah Moore. Zidiots termed us “Leatherheads” so we adopted it. If it were not for this blog, some Zidiots would have nothing to write about on their blogs.

  75. sherna lee says:

    I am a lurker and have been for the entjre trial.I have read every comment I know you saved my sanity when the goings got rough because the verdict triggered PTSD for this 59 year old black woman.It is not easy to write my feelings but I needed you to know how you all have been there for me if not I hesitate to guess where my pain over this Trayvon case would have left me> I write you to honor you and to get guidance on what to do next. In my younger days I was a Black Panther ,not many know we started as a voter registration.,food and literacy group who met at local I am a living testrment to the history of the struggle and the lenghts that opposite forces can and do go to stop those in protest .This may be the only comment I ever write but you DESERVE to know I am nere 1st thing in the morning and last thing at night.

    • greenwarrior says:

      Wow! Thank you so much for your comments and your tireless efforts on behalf of justice. It’s people like you who walk the talk that keep inspiring new folks to take up the mantle. Thank you, beloved.

    • aussie says:

      Welcome, Sherna Lee.

      Your experience may be needed here. Voter registration is again becoming a very big issue. It is especially important when so many obstacles are again being put in the way of those who would like to vote — who NEED to vote to get better people in charge.

      Perhaps a new grass-roots organisation, with the good white people also involved? But a new name, one that hasn’t accumulated years of bad feeling. Can you think of something suitable?

    • bettykath says:

      The Black Panthers were powerful. That’s why they were infiltrated with violence and so many were murdered. Hats off to you and the other Panthers who tried to make changes.

    • Judy75201 says:

      Thank you so very much for posting! It is our honor to have your here, Sherna Lee. The verdict put me into a very bad place, as well, and I am not out of it entirely yet.

    • 2dogsonly says:

      I tried to join the black panthers and they said no no little lady, wrong color so I staying with NAACP. Just a bit of historical lore.

      • Xena says:

        @2dogsonly. I had a White friend whose husband was attending medical school when Fred Hampton and Mark Clark were murdered. She joined the Black Panthers. They put her at the front door of their headquarters so if the cops came they wouldn’t shoot first and ask questions later.

      • cielo62 says:

        2dogsonly- maybe we should start the Pink Panthers?? 😉

    • J4TMinATL says:

      Welcome Sherna!

    • abbyj1 says:

      Sherna, I was a lurker for a long, long time, too. Thank you for stepping for and letting everyone know more about you and your interesting past. I, for one, am so glad you’re here. This site has been a lifesaver for me, too, kept me afloat during the roughest seas. So nice to meet you, Sherna.

    • I, too, lurked for a very long time and I’m not from the CTH. I have been trying for about a month to contribute to the site, with no success (e-mailed for help via Facebook to the Professor, went to Q&A on the Paypal site). Guess I’m going to have to call Paypal to see why both of my credit cards are being rejected. Thanks for all that has been shared. Most of the time, I simply prefer to read (usually, I’m supposed to be working!).

  76. MedicineBear says:

    Happy Sunday, fine folks! Here’s a link to an astrological analysis of Trayvon’s murder trial and rabbit-hole verdict for those interested:

    • MichelleO says:

      I’m not into astrology and firmly believe that “It’s not your sign, it’s your mind.”

      Anywho, just for chits and giggles, from time to time, I researched a number of astrology sites from last summer until the run up to the trial—and lo and behold—even though a number of these sites had done charts for the murderer and the victim, NONE of them would dare predict the outcome of the trial. None!

      • aussie says:

        I don’t recall who it was, but someone did post an analysis here about 2 months ago and said “the verdict will be shocking”.

        It WAS.

        • MichelleO says:

          It was shocking because an astrologists said it would be so?

          • aussie says:

            You said none dared predict the outcome. I said one person here said the verdict will be shocking. “it was” = she was right.

          • MichelleO says:

            Like most astrology, this is a very vague wording and “prediction.” People in favor of the child murderer would have be “shocked” if he were not acquitted of all charges. And people in favor of the murdered boy would have been “shocked” of an acquittal. So, really this person didn’t “predict” anything. Anyone can be “shocked” at something at anytime—which is a generality and not a “prediction” at all.

      • MedicineBear says:

        The art and science of astrology is not about prediction — that’s why you don’t see many astrological predictions. Astrology is more a ROAD MAP of possibilities . . . put human beings in the picture with their individual FREE WILL and there is NO PREDICTING what road (or choice) the individuals will take.

        I’ve not heard of many people who expect predictions from road maps. Your skepticism does not invalidate astrology.

    • racerrodig says:

      I don’t follow astrology much nor know anything about it but here’s my take on Fogen……..and SheLie…..and Taaffe……and The Morn Man…….and West…… name a Zidiot….and this fits.

      Born under a bad sign.
      I’ve been down since I began to crawl.
      If it wasn’t for bad luck,
      I wouldn’t have no luck at all.

      Bad luck and trouble’s my only friend,
      I’ve been down ever since I was ten.

      Born under a bad sign.
      I’ve been down since I began to crawl.
      If it wasn’t for bad luck,
      I wouldn’t have no luck at all.

      You know, wine and women is all I crave.
      A big bad woman’s gonna carry me to my grave.

      Born under a bad sign.
      I’ve been down since I began to crawl.
      If it wasn’t for bad luck,
      I wouldn’t have no luck at all.

      Bad luck and trouble’s been my only friend,
      I’ve been down ever since I was ten.

      Born under a bad sign.
      I’ve been down since I began to crawl.

      If it wasn’t for bad luck,
      I wouldn’t have no luck.
      If it wasn’t for real bad luck,
      I wouldn’t have no luck at all.

      Born under a bad sign.
      Born under a bad sign.

      I didn’t even need to rewrite a single word on this one.

    • Xena says:

      @MedicineBear. From the article:

      Finally, the Moon is void-of-course, significant in that it suggests an improper outcome, and also one that is not the last word, lacking finality or staying power.

      There are times I get lost in what certain planets mean and their placements. I go more on intuition and all during GZ’s case and trial, I said it is God’s plan that GZ is found guilty of murder and sentenced to life in prison. I stand on that. Hopefully, it will not be another victim of murder by GZ but rather, the DOJ will file charges, prosecute, and convict.

      Six women, one of whom violated the court’s instructions to disregard a portion of Serino’s testimony, and who also based her decision on how GZ was charged, rendered a verdict that essentially did nothing more than release GZ from his conditions of bond. His life is as pitiful as he is as a person.

      • roderick2012 says:

        Xena, I believe you’re missing the big picture of Piglet’s acquittal. One of the websites that I frequent stated that Zimmerman’s fate is tied into the astrological chart of the U.S. and that is why it has been such a big story.
        The U.S. Sun is in Cancer which is a sign of the nurturing mother at its most positive, but it is very tribal and racist at its worse.

        Add to that the transiting Pluto-Uranus square( both in cardinal signs which will aspect U.S. Sun exactly in April 2014) which I read somewhere has to do with race relations more specifically how African Americans ( first African American president) interact with the rest of American society then we see why race has been such a hot topic the past couple of years.

        If Piglet had been convicted we would truncated the national discussion about race because no one would have cared if B37 had discussed a book deal while she was supposedly sequestered and she would not have gone on t.v. and exposed her racism while attempting to explain her rationale for voting to acquit George of murdering Trayvon in cold blood.

        America needs to have a discussion about racism once and for all even if it doesn’t end in everyone singing Kumbuya.

        BTW one of the things I will always be curious about is how the Paula Deen racial drama impacted the five white females because it really blew up the weekend before the trial started and that was before sequestration began. It may not have swayed any of the jurors either way but just solidified their affinity for Deen’s racism.

        • Xena says:


          Xena, I believe you’re missing the big picture of Piglet’s acquittal. One of the websites that I frequent stated that Zimmerman’s fate is tied into the astrological chart of the U.S. and that is why it has been such a big story.

          I’ve read that too. Maybe I’m not missing the big picture but am looking at it from another angle. There’s only so much I can say in a comment and in public. For instance, the Tea Party was organizing in Texas and Florida when Barack Obama was nominated to run on the Democratic ticket for president. It is not a response to his election but rather, a response to him having the “nerve” to think he could be president of the U.S.

          It goes along with the astrological interpretations of the charts, because it was ALL about race and not about politics.

          America needs to have a discussion about racism once and for all even if it doesn’t end in everyone singing Kumbuya.

          America has been discussing racism, so let’s flip the coin and say, America needs to discuss White entitlement. We need to discuss how a 17 yr old White kid is more than likely to have a car to go to the 7-Eleven, while a 17 yr old Black kid from out of town walks to the store and ends up murdered.

          BTW one of the things I will always be curious about is how the Paula Deen racial drama impacted the five white females because it really blew up the weekend before the trial started and that was before sequestration began.

          Juror B37 might was well sleep in the same bed with Paula Deen because she came in as a racist stealth. Juror B37 probably had ice cream with West and used the word “stupidity” for Juror B29, which is code word used by White Supremacists and sovereign citizens for all Blacks, even Black Hispanics.

        • sparger says:

          The sad part about the Deen story that people don’t realize. No one black is involved in the suit. Deen’s brother is a sexist and racist pig that was harrassing a white manager with Deen’s full knowledge. Somehow blacks got to take the fall for this bull too.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Having moon void of course at the same time as a Mercury retrograde is a really drifty, unfocused period in which something as unreal as that verdict can happen.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Thanks. I enjoy considering the astrological angle.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      The analysis is actually quite good. Wish this astrologer had done a preview of it ahead – we’d have been ready for the eventual spill for sure:

      “Astrologically, it was a trial strongly tapped into the transit sky, with numerous PNAs pivotal to the case interacting in potent and time-sensitive ways to celestially portray the earthbound travesty.”

      “Justitia itself was galactically encumbered by sitting on the cross-hairs of a T-Square with Black Holes at 4 Cancer and 5 Capricorn, which promote bizarre, parallel reality manifestations, circumstances so unexpected and counter-intuitive as to strain credulity. Up is down, black is white, and the status of a situation can turn on a dime—who was the victim here, the dead youth or the self-appointed watchman, now claiming self-defense?”

      “But Themis is also squared Uranus at 12 Aries, indicating an unexpected, unusual, unsettling outcome, and an opposition to a Black Hole at 19 Capricorn suggests heightened unpredictability and the surreal nature of the “justice” meted out. Transit Themis also exactly conjoins Martin’s natal Atropos and closely opposes Martin’s natal asteroid Zimmerman at 18 Capricorn, signifying the individual toward whom the powers of justice should have been directed, as well as natally identifying Zimmerman as the potential vehicle of Martin’s demise.”

      I did mention that this was a Mercury retrograde sort of decision. This astrologer says: Transit Mercury (the decision itself) retrograde at 15 Cancer is involved in a Grand Trine with Zimmerman’s natal asteroid . . . Mercury’s retrograde status here suggests flawed thinking, a deliberative process that is somehow inverted or skewed from the norm.”

      “Finally, the Moon is void-of-course, significant in that it suggests an improper outcome, and also one that is not the last word, lacking finality or staying power . . . Adding to the probability of the shooting being gone into again is Mercury’s retrograde status, implying a temporary conclusion and a need to revisit the issue at a later time.”

      We know all this in our hearts, and the map was in the sky.

  77. BahamaMama says:

    Am I a lurker? I follow most days, YAHTC brought me over from Newsvine. Sometimes I comment but find it hard to get back to the original comment to have a discussion. It seems discussions (in general) keep flowing to the bottom of page. That frustrates me. If I check the follow up boxes my email goes crazy, and I’m overwhelmed.
    On the Newsvine site there is a “conversation tracker” button and each time you check back it alerts you to any comments made in the thread that you made a comment in. So you dont have to read thousands of unrelated, comments, unless you want to. It makes it easier to have a conversation.
    I enjoy reading your posts Professor (and Crane) it’s good to know there are real people, with real heart, fighting for justice in our country. I feel a need to shower after going to some sites, so it’s refreshing to “lurk” over here.

    • aussie says:

      Hello BahamaMama

      if you are in a thread and want to find a section where you commented, use your browser FIND feature. Put in your name and it will hop to all the comments you made, so you can check under them for responses. Or of course you can “FIND” for any other poster whose comments you are interested in.

      If you can’t recall which thread you commented on, sorry, you’re on your own.;) But usually when a new article goes up, everyone migrates to it. The old one will usually only get 1 more round of responses.

      Sometimes just-started lines of thought are brought over to the new one. This saves us all running 3 or 4 articles at a time, especially when one reason for moving along is that they get too big to load up.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Well, Good Morning, my friend!

      I hope you have been enjoying your summer and have had the chance to do a lot of that snorkeling you enjoy so much!

      Our summer has been great…..we just returned from a family reunion in Washington, D.C.

      Be sure to say “hi” to the ladies for me. Tell DOCJT that, even though I closed my Newsvine account, I have been following her on the various articles that she has been commenting on. She is doing a great job, isn’t she?

      Oh, and say hello to the guys also for me.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


        You probably have guessed my method of reading comments here since you know me so well. I spend all my time going up and down each article looking for new comments. 🙂

        I just can’t bear the idea of getting dozens and dozens of emails alerting me to new comments.

        Also, it is easier for me to read the new comments in the actually context of each separate discussion in which they are posted.

      • BahamaMama says:

        Hi YAHTC! I’m glad to hear from you 🙂
        I’ve been enjoying summer, the water is great, and I’ve had plenty of company visiting, keeping me busy here.
        This whole verdict has made me sick! I’ve lost faith in humankind, those jurors had an agenda, at least the one that came out first and spoke. What a disgrace! The scum suckers over on the vine are beating their chests in their victory (as you can imagine) poor sweet icurhoods, she is heartsick over the verdict.
        DOCJT is great, she’s a strong, smart woman, he just keeps on ticking (Timex?) lol.
        I’ve been keeping my distance from the vine, or I’d lose my mind, but i have kept in touch with others through email. I will tell them hello from you. You were smart to leave there when you did.

        I hope this posts where it should (another glitch I catch over here, I post a reply and it ends up in wrong spot) whoops…

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:

          Sounds like a great summer for you, BahamaMama!

          The verdict reflects the greater picture in the U.S. as far as what needs to change. It has defined what we are called to stand up against in order to bring change to our country.

          And, I will stand up and be heard! I will not be silent!

    • crazy1946 says:

      BahamaMama, One thing that a person quickly notices about this site is that it has the community spirit that the Newsvine abandoned as they lost the core values the site was established upon….. Too bad at one time it was the best news community going….. Welcome!

  78. aussie says:

    Welcome to all lurkers.

    Your opinion is important to us. We assume if you disagreed with everything here, you’d not be here. But please don’t just sit there and nod your head in agreement with everyone else.

    Make your voice heard. Everyone has some experience of their own to contribute. Or questions to ask.

  79. fauxmccoy says:

    thank you fred and crane for creating this spot. i appreciate it very much and think i let you know this often in a number of ways.

    i would love to encourage those who hide in the woodwork to say howdy so we can get to know you. as for ideas toward improvement, i’ve sent you some by email and will surely continue.

    one thing to consider about the disparity between site hits and those who comment, i suspect that potentially sizable portion could be zimmerman apologists who have no intention of posting. they just like to keep their evil eye trained on the opposition.

    i do have some suggestions regarding site analysis based on my own blogging experience and will send that to you as it is more complicated than a mere post here would accommodate.

    blessings to all,

    • Deborah Moore says:

      Just letting you know we had a great time at the zoo and spending time observing the gorillas was Teh Fab. And, I realized, while doing so, that calling folks who appear ignorant “knuckle draggers” is a real insult to our primate friends. I’ll not do it again.
      So many lessons to learn.

    • cielo62 says:

      Those evil eyes just see justice here. It’s no wonder they are too ashamed to say anything.

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