Juror B-29 misunderstood a jury instruction and a remorseless child-killer is free to kill again

Friday, July 26, 2013

Good morning my friends:

Juror 29 misunderstood a jury instruction and a remorseless child-killer is free to kill again.

She decided that Zimmerman murdered Trayvon, but she could not find him guilty “because of the law.” She said the prosecution did not prove that he intended to kill Trayvon and that is why she eventually caved and voted not guilty.

Intent is not an element of second degree murder. The instruction said that the prosecution had to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant intended to commit the act or acts that resulted in Travon’s death and that such act or acts evinced a depraved mind indifferent to human life.

In other words, the prosecution only had to prove that the defendant intended to shoot at Trayvon, not that he intended to kill him.

How bizarre is it that the defendant was acquitted because at least one juror misunderstood the jury instruction?

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735 Responses to Juror B-29 misunderstood a jury instruction and a remorseless child-killer is free to kill again

  1. J4TMinATL says:

    Follow

  2. YQ says:

    As someone said yesterday in this post. I have no quarrel with her personal life at all. 8 kids is 8 kids. My aunt has 12, my grandma had 12. Some people just pour em out, whereas I’m 36/married with no kids.

    I guess that my real misunderstanding of her comes from the fact that she didn’t go rogue and sort out the evidence for herself. I could not allow myself to absorb someone else’s interpretation of the law when I have proven to myself that in 36 years of living I have not been toggled through the system in the way that Fogen had. I had an upbringing in Florida that made damn sure I wasn’t going out like that.

    B29 is not what hurts me the most. It’s B37 and that “second chance” spin she put on her decision making.
    “I’m sure he learned his lesson….” she said.
    So wait… he didn’t learn his lesson when he hit a cop, he didn’t learn his lesson when he abused his wife, and his cousin’s confessions of molestation wasn’t going to teach him anything. He had to chase down and kill an unarmed teen and sit through a trial (which he fell asleep in) to really receive his slap on the hand? Before he can realize, “oops, I f*cked up and made a bad choice.”-he had to experience the same thing that people in prison had to experience before they learned. Tell me this isn’t a overly-priviledged response to the issue at hand and I will personally sell you the Gandy Bridge. Fogen shouldn’t be so lucky to go out into the world, because now he’s so scared for his life that he is not going to make any use of it. Scared to go out in the world and at the same time scared to go to prison and serve his dues… he is one useless son-of-a-b*tch.

    So look here, Trayvon shouldn’t have became his ginea pig in his own life experience.

    • colin black says:

      Yes he learned that killing an UNARMED CHILD IN MERICA.

      Makes a nonentity loser into9 an overnight media sensation.

      That strangers send you money lots off them an lots off it.

      He learned you can blurt out any old ballyhoo about what ocoured because you shoot the only person whom can tell the TRUTH.

      You learn once again as you have often suspected you are a Teflon con an not above the law .

      But some how excempt not only that.

      You learned that Murdering an unarmed CHILD SEEING THE FEAR AN TERROR FELT GOOD.
      An you learned you could turn away an no longer bother to look at the face of an innocent child dead fish eyes leakling a single tear.

      An not even registar.

      You dintnt need to learn to lie on the spot as it was a skill you had for a long time.

      An you didn’t even have to be good just be respetfull yes mam no mam three bags fell mam.

      No sir in soft tones quite almost whisper.

      He learned even a flent liar of impossible lies can prevail in domestic violence .

      She attacked me>
      Probably sexuall abuse an incest as well.

      foggages version would be thus.
      She attacked my weiner first an I didn’t know what her deal was
      It felt like she was up to something real good.

      His bar le felony attacking a A T F underage officer .

      Was the same didn’t id himself he attacked my friend an me first was only defending myelf.

      An on an on he goes what ever screw up he blames it on the other party.

      All would be hunk dory in foggages world if althrse family members girlfriend random strangers would only stop attacking him.

      An threating his presious shelie.

      Landlord spots him for unpaid ren t foggage straight out with the cell phone.

      Thers a real suspious guy asking me to open my wallet in aisle 4.

      If you don’t want to attrnnd to a clean up on aisle 4 I suggest you tell this up to goog guy what the deal is?

      Yup my name zimmmerrmmmann
      You got shit I don’t want to give my address out as he is standing right in front of me.

      By the serials Special K im pushing a trolley with 16 bucks worth of weekly groceries.

      He looks kind of red in the face.
      Yup he is a red in the face turning purple kinnda looks like my landlord.

      Now he stoped telling me to get my checking account open an give him some RENT

      SHIT he running

      Towards the back exit check outs .

      You take a left at tinned good past fresh produce down the dairy isle.

      An you will see my shopping trolley.

      An if you send an officer to the car park you will see the PURPLE FACED DUDE.

      Skipping along definitely not running away from me out of anger an frushtation

      Fucking phunks old coots thease landlords crdit card companys car finance always trying to stop you getting away.

      With not paying them.

      • gblock says:

        Great comment, Colin! I got a good chuckle from the mental picture of the landlord chasing Fogen through the supermarket. Thanks!

    • Claire says:

      this!!!

  3. crazy1946 says:

    who said “Don’t judge a man/woman until you have walked a mile in his/her shoes”. ….

    • Tzar says:

      we had a trial and we had a judge
      we are way past that territory
      and honestly we should be saying that to the first judger who created the situation for there to be judging

      the person who judged Trayvon then went on to be his jury and executioner is the person who needs to hear that
      not anyone on this board

      • crazy1946 says:

        Tzar, I have always had the deepest respect for you and your comments. Granted this lady sat on a jury that judged our common foe and was part of the “group” that rendered a decision that non of us was wanting, but now because of our pent up anger we are now playing judge and jury and verbally murdering her? I don’t like what she did nor what she said, but I had always hoped (and thought) we were better people than what we saw over at the tree sewer, yet here we are starting to sound like them… We’ve been on this murderous rampage for about 24 hours, could it be called a “digital riot”? I’ll say no more, because after reading all that has been said, these words will be twisted to say something that will agree with the current trend of discord amongst the members of this normally close knit community…

        • Tzar says:

          “Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.‘”

          ― Isaac Asimov

          Someone has to judge when unreason speaks
          because reason has to prevail

          This is the current American morass, if you want proof just watch the Sunday pundits or Zimmerman’s brother for example

          go to 3:10

          this is now passing for publishable content
          we have to jeer or it will continue

          We’ve been on this murderous rampage for about 24 hours, could it be called a “digital riot”?

          well gosh…if only George could have rampaged digitally…what could have been…what could have been

      • This is what’s known as a circular firing squad.

  4. colin black says:

    type1juve says:

    July 26, 2013 at 6:19 pm

    The scream was a death shriek and those women know that. They also know it came from Trayvon, they just don’t care. At the end of the day none of the evidence against Fogen mattered to them. They were determined to set him free and they did. Shame on them for that
    @
    No one and I mean no one whom heard those 911 tapes an Trayvons Screams an pleas an Death.

    No one thought they were the man wielding the guns screams.

    Not the gun weilder he knew better he was there .
    Not the L E or D A or people in an around the case.
    Not a single person believes its foggage letting out that scream.

    How could it be his voice is picked up talking an interogating Trayvon an taunting an cussing at him an even a bible misss quote are picked up from his lips.

    Theres two people on the tape the murderer an the VICTIM.

    Of course the jury never heard this evidence an wouldn’t have mattered if they did.

    That’s the problem a similar mind set jury will set Dunn free .

    Everyone knows even those that perjured themselves on the stand an lies that it was foggages scream.

    If your willing to condone child murder then swearing an oath on the bible an then breaking it is a doddle.
    Especialy when you know there will be absulutley no consiquensies.

    Ask sindy Anthony an ask shelie z in a couplee of months

    • Claire says:

      Just on Dunn–the cops did a better job during the interview this time with Michael Dunn…they are suspicious of his story…and I think they will be better for the prosecution that those liars Serino and Singleton

      I feel less fearful that Dunn will get off but I understand if others think so.

  5. commenting says:

    Ok to be clearer…serino suggested that gz be charged….the DA Disagreed,serino the weak minded, instead of sticking to his convictions, decided to come up with a reason why he suggexted that gz be charged, he was pressured by the black cops…..he was ultimately demoted……if he said on the stand that he really thought gz should have been charged, and he lied about being pressured by the black cops to take the focus off himself, because he was being questioned over and over again why did he charge gz to begin with, he did not want to deal with the stress of fighting with the SPD………………………omara or west eould say really?….are u sure u are not saying this to get back at the SPD because you were demoted?…and that is your way of getting back at them…..why didn’t you have the guts to say that you believe gz should have been charged, why did you blame it on pressure from your black cowerkers…….again is he a very curropted individual or one that is weak

    • bettykath says:

      I think Serino was removed as a detective b/c he went against the group think of Wolfinger, Lee, et al in filing the capias. He also screwed up by telling witnesses who was screaming rather than asking them who they heard.

      The questions he was asked while on the stand were specific to what he thought at a specific point in time. That time was early on, before Serino began to get evidence that proved fogen was a pathological liar. I think he used the term pathological liar b/c that’s what he thought later on. No one asked him about later on. The state left him hanging in the wind.

      • roderick2012 says:

        I think Serino was removed as a detective b/c he went against the group think of Wolfinger, Lee, et al in filing the capias.

        So why did he lie on the stand?

        Does he honestly believe that he’s going to get his old job as detective back now he perjured himself to assist George in being acquitted?

        Serino’s been all over the place on this case. From claiming to the FBI that the only reason he filed charges against Piglet was because the ‘blahs’ in the department pressured him.

        Then he filed at least three capias(es) none of them claiming that Piglet acted in self defense.

        Serino has no credibility or integrity.

      • type1juve says:

        “The state left him hanging in the wind.”

        And so he did the same thing to Trayvon Martin.

      • commenting says:

        Ok.didn’t realize that the questions were specific to what he thought at certain time….wow man wow

      • J4TMinATL says:

        He “claims” he was not demoted. He claims it was his choice to move to patrol and chose the night shift.

        That brotherhood again….

  6. elcymoo says:

    I think that we as a group are being far too hard on Maddy (Juror B29). While I fervently wish that she’d stuck to her guns, remember that she didn’t have anyone covering her back, and she didn’t have the advantages that we’ve had in assessing the evidence over the past year and more.

    We’ve had the benefit of Professor Leatherman’s timely and detailed explanations of the laws pertaining to this case, and the informative observations and research done by several of the commenters here. Maddy probably never got to see any of the illustrative You Tube videos created by LLMPapa, Xena and others. She was subjected to the conflicting arguments by the prosecution; for example, John Guy brought up the absence of GZ’s DNA on Trayvon’s body and clothing during his opening argument, and then Bernie taunts GZ by claiming that Trayvon was beating his butt. Judge Nelson allowed the defense team far too much leeway in presenting such things as that cartoon animation of GZ’s version of events. The list goes on and on….

    She heard only a brief mention or two about GZ’s history of aggression and violence, and the prosecution wasn’t prepared to elaborate on those during trial. I think that most of the details about his medical history and medications were redacted and not allowed, although his PA did mention during her testimony that he was already seeing a psychologist.

    Regardless of what we think of her comments about hurting as much as Sybrina, the fact remains that – so far, at least – she’s the only juror who tried to put herself in Sybrina’s shoes or her children in Trayvon’s place. Many of us have cried and lost sleep over his death and the suffering it brought to his family. I have no doubt that Maddy will feel the pain of her choices for many years to come.

    • Tzar says:

      I think that we as a group are being far too hard on Maddy (Juror B29). While I fervently wish that she’d stuck to her guns, remember that she didn’t have anyone covering her back, and she didn’t have the advantages that we’ve had in assessing the evidence over the past year and more.

      do you realize that no one was talking about Maddy until Maddy wanted to be a star AND massage our brains with bullshit oil?
      She can’t just come and tell us anything, that’s been a core problem in this case from jump, people willing to accept any ole thing.

      • elcymoo says:

        No, I don’t realize that. I think she came out in part because she wanted to counter the false narrative of what happened during deliberations put forth by Juror B37, and partly because she truly is wracked by doubts and misgivings over her vote.

        I think it will help when we finally hear from the other 4 jurors, who said that the opinions of Juror B37 weren’t representative of theirs.

        I think Judge Nelson made another error when she granted open-ended anonymity to the members of the jury. IMO, ‘shadow juries’ are unacceptable.

        • Tzar says:

          had she simply said I screwed up, I can understand
          but to claim
          1. that God will take care of this (hell why did we even bother with a trial?)
          2. That she feels as much pain as Sybrina (SMGDH)
          3.That she knew he was guilty but had no choice but to set him free (that was the only choice she had)

          the simple truth as we all know it is she chickened out and as the old saying goes a coward dies a thousand death. But I wished that’s where it all ended, the more mind boggling truth is that she chose not to be a hero, there was no easier choice than to stand firmly on the side of a dead, unarmed child who ran for his life before screaming for his life before being killed. It takes little courage to do that and she chose not to and THAT is a moral failing of epic magnitude. Nothing I have heard thus far sounded worthy of moving her from such a noble position.

      • cielo62 says:

        Tzar~ LOL! “bullshit oil”!

        ________________________________

    • type1juve says:

      Maddy made the choice to let a murderer go free. She could probably care less what people on a blog have to say about her and her decision. She has retained the attorney who had a part in enabling Fogen to get access to a gun. The evidence was there to convict, she and the other jurors chose not to review it. Instead they looked for a legal loophole that would validate their decision and absolve them of holding a murderer accountable for his actions. She, like all the others before her, will profit from a child’s murder. Save your pity for the other black males out there who will lose their lives due to state sanctioned murder. The jury just wrapped it up and put bow on it for us. Trust me, Maddy will be just fine.

  7. SearchingMind says:

    Look at it this way

    The human mind is a mysterious thing. Certain minds work in unfathomable ways. So does the mind of B29. So also does the mind of individuals who confess to murder(s) they did not commit, etc. The mind is a bundle of mysteries we cannot untangle. Juror B29 is arguably neither as smart nor mentally as strong as most people here. B29 is not a lawyer. She, like Rachel Jeantel, does not speak Queen’s English and is not extremely well educated. She is also not a good thinker who can calmly and cold-bloodedly analyze a set of seemingly unrelated facts scattered all over the map by Bernie de la Rionda to form one single body of evidence of guilt. And she is not streetwise. She got entrusted with a task that she is by no means was equipped to handle and, expectedly, she failed in that endeavor. Juror B29 does not even understand what her task and responsibilities are as a Juror. But ignorance and/or naivety, and/or even stupidity, etc. is/are neither crime(s) nor malicious or (gross) carelessness. I can only but sigh at Juror B29, but I can’t bring myself to chastise her. Juror B29 failed, but she did no wrong. Juror B29 is a good woman with conscience. After the acquittal of the murderer, Juror B29 realized that failure aided a child murderer to get away with murder. Juror B29 can’t live with herself anymore. She feels the pain of Ms. Fulton (is what I understand she meant to say; remember she is not a good communicator in the English language) and is courageous enough to come out and testify to the public that she failed and that “George Zimmerman got away with murder”. I think that’s a powerful statement. Moving on, Juror B29 is a good asset for the movement to find justice for Trayvon in that her public testimony seriously delegitimizes the racist not-guilty verdict, makes a mockery of the Jury as a whole and adds immense moral justification/support to indicting George Zimmerman pursuant to the Federal Hate Crime Law. If we didn’t have Juror B29, we will have the alternate male juror who by all account is one of the stealth Jurors and is now publicly supporting the shameful not-guilty verdict. The movement would not have been better off with that, would it? Let glean from Juror B29 whatever is gleanable from her and move on – with eyes on the ultimate prize.

    • Tzar says:

      Juror B29 failed, but she did no wrong.

      I beg to differ

    • Tzar says:

      She feels the pain of Ms. Fulton

      No she doesn’t, she will see her children this holiday season, she will laugh with them, counsel them, imagine their dreams coming true, imagine the grandchildren that they will give, there are a myriad of reasons why I can be sure that B29 does not feel what Miss. Fulton feels

      But what I know most of all…is that she did not feel an iota of what Miss. Fulton feels when it mattered most.

    • Tzar says:

      “George Zimmerman got away with murder”. I think that’s a powerful statement.

      Given the stater, I think that is salt in the wound

    • Tzar says:

      her public testimony seriously delegitimizes the racist not-guilty verdict, makes a mockery of the Jury as a whole

      It delegitimizes her and still…it leaves a tortured and dead child without justice.
      What if next week she says the opposite? to me it would carry as much weight as what she says in this interview but it would never carry as much weight as what she did in that deliberation room.

    • Tzar says:

      If we didn’t have Juror B29, we will have the alternate male juror who by all account is one of the stealth Jurors and is now publicly supporting the shameful not-guilty verdict.

      what you consider consolation, in this instance, is a degree of quasi-post hoc settling that I simply can’t bring myself to do.

    • Tzar says:

      but I can’t bring myself to chastise her.

      All the more reason we should thank baby jesus for the existence of people of my ilk

    • Tzar says:

      Look at it this way

      out of general principal, Iam going to say no but let’s se what you got

      The human mind is a mysterious thing.

      General platitude aka baby cousin to “it’s all God’s plan”

      Certain minds work in unfathomable ways. So does the mind of B29. So also does the mind of individuals who confess to murder(s) they did not commit, etc.

      So does the mind of a serial killer
      so does the mind of a child molester
      So does the mind of a guy who searches for addresses he already knows

      Juror B29 is arguably neither as smart nor mentally as strong as most people here.

      dumb does not equal immoral but I guess we can say that she was duped
      but she says she knew the killer was guilty, so according to your statement, she must be dumb to the point of having no conscience or morality. what mental age would you give her? I think most experts say that the age knowing right and wrong is about 8..(don’t quote me on that)

      B29 is not a lawyer. She, like Rachel Jeantel, does not speak Queen’s English and is not extremely well educated. She is also not a good thinker who can calmly and cold-bloodedly analyze a set of seemingly unrelated facts scattered all over the map by Bernie de la Rionda to form one single body of evidence of guilt. And she is not streetwise. She got entrusted with a task that she is by no means was equipped to handle and, expectedly, she failed in that endeavor. Juror B29 does not even understand what her task and responsibilities are as a Juror.

      you are essentially saying that she was a non-entity as far as the jury was concerned and too dumb to matter when things mattered, but at the same time you claim that she is smart enough that her statement that “George Zimmerman got away with murder” is “a powerful statement.”

      I find these 2 claims incompatible.

    • cielo62 says:

      Searching Mind~ Thank you for being a sane voice. yes, even admitting that gz got away with murder DID send shock waves out, even if she DID fail when she was needed the most. Time to move forward.

      ________________________________

  8. commenting says:

    Ok so serino said that he was pressured by his black coworkers to charge gz….who did he say that too? Y did he need to give an explanation?…hey I’m not saying that serino isn’t currupt to an extend..but the guy certainly weaved himself into a Web……..the fact is from the start he did not stand by his convictions…he is another weak individualwho needed to come up witnumerous excusrs to explain what he did or did not do…..he certainly

    • commenting says:

      He certainly made a fool of himself..at the end he was demoted from detective back to a patrol cop……how corrupt was he? Or how weak was he?…..no one had his back at the end of it all, if he came clean he would haveonly humiliated himself even more….

  9. gblock says:

    I’ve been wanting to post this. Tonight looks like an appropriate time. I hope that a lot of you will get a chance to read this:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alafair-burke/george-zimmerman-jury-instructions_b_3596685.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

    Summary:
    Many states have stand-your-ground laws, and most have self-defense laws. But, in most states, the defense has to prove self-defense. In Florida, if the self-defense issue is raised, the prosecution has to disprove its validity in the situation.

    The exception is if the defendant is an “initial aggressor”, which could have applied to GZ. This was in the original proposed jury instructions. But, case law says that this exception only applies if there is force or “threat of force”. West therefore protested (although he included a bunch of irrelevancies). Judge Nelson removed the relevant instruction instead of adding language that would explain the requirement. The author of the article believes that this is because she felt pressed for time, and didn’t want to spend the additional time to hash it out. However, this may have made the difference between conviction (or at least a hung jury) and acquittal.

    To me, this raises at least a couple of questions about potential changes in Florida law. First, changing the burden of proof for self-defense may be an important issue – perhaps more so than “stand your ground” which has received most of the attention. Second, there should be standard jury instructions containing the appropriate language for cases in which similar issues apply.

    • KateW says:

      The law needs to be abolished period. If Florida can’t get their act together then this law should not be on the books. There is plenty of evidence this law is slanted to a particular group of individuals. Changing the wording is not going to change the fact that more African Americans are put in prison for standing their ground than other groups. This law is applied and used to discriminate against African Americans, while allowing Whites to go free to murder again and again just by claiming this law. Laws like this are inviting or having been inviting trouble. There should be a duty for one to retreat and try to diffuse the situation; however, this law allows a person not on their own property to instigate an altercation and once they begin to loose they pull out their weapon when feeling threatened and kill the individual. Depending on the color of your skin would determine whether or not the law applies to you. Of course that is not how the law is written to imply bias towards one group over another but the statistics show that is exactly what is going on. They are using the law to punish African Americans and put them away. So changing the law will not change the fact that this law is used to disparage a group of people. They are not going to come out and say we use the law to put African Americans away but the data shows that is exactly what they are doing. The law is not equal and needs to be abolished, not changed.

      I would love to see someone challenge the constitutionality of this law based on prejudice towards particular groups.

    • boyd says:

      thanks, I read it. if I were a Jurior I would iignore their stupid law.. Then they would have to prove I ignored it… ha ha ha thats my work around. My conscience and well-being is more important than their stupid law.

      it’s illiogical. the other guy is dead therefore only one story is told.,

    • MDH says:

      Damn, JN made a massive mistake.

      The case law cited by the defense clearly states that the error was to not include “force” or “threat of force” in the instructions about being an initial aggressor. So JN just takes out the entire text about initial aggressor?

      I would argue that a larger man who does not identify himself and comes creeping up to me in the dark with a gun can reasonably be construed as a threat of using force. That issue should have been one for the jury to consider.

      JN let West walk all over her.

      • Malisha says:

        JN didn’t let West walk all over her; she was dancing with him.

      • roderick2012 says:

        MDH: Damn, JN made a massive mistake.

        No, JN did as she was instructed to make sure that Piglet got off.

      • type1juve says:

        JN knew exactly what she was doing. Her instructions were deliberate and intentional. She was very diligent about following case law during trial. Again, she knew what she was doing.

  10. aussie says:

    If any one you still have some energy left over from attacking this juror, perhaps you could look closer at who the other one is. B37. Finding out her connections can’t be any morally worse than what’s happening here now. It could be a lot more useful, as without public outcry they’re not likely to do anything about the voire dire perjury.

    On that note I’m outta here. I’ll look in from time to time to see if things have gone back to normal. Been great knowing most of you.

    • a2nite says:

      Please remember aussie, that many people are very angry and need someplace to place their anger. That is what you are seeing. The entire episode is evil rotten bigoted GZ’s fault. He was aided and abetted by the police, the states attorney, the bigoted criminal injustice system. This just reminds us that the evil white supremacist power structure thinks that we (people of African) descent are nothing.

      The system doesn’t work. It is unfortunate that so many people don’t see things the way POC and this one black woman do.

      We need less conversations and more changing of the criminal injustice system which includes stopping the racial profiling of young black men would help.

      It actually might have been better to not bring the case to trial at all. The jury was tainted, poor forensic evidence, poorly prepared prosecution witnesses, the rotten police were on GZ’s side, he defense has over a year to poison a bigoted jury pool, GZ had a year to raise money from white supremacists and gun nuts.

      I’m more angry at B37. She had an agenda. I’m more angry with the RW bigoted MSM for smearing Trayvon Martin.

  11. Mary Davis says:

    I know B-37 is prejudiced, but I can respect her. She did not sugar coat anything she said. She said she believed in George. She was gonna acquit him no matter what. Everybody knows where she is coming from, but B-29 is a whole different story. She pretends to be sorry about her decision. Well it’s a little too late now. She claims she can’t sleep at night. Well this is the bed she made.

    What in the world was she thinking.

    • KateW says:

      I can’t respect that racist B37 at all. Yeah she admitted to it after the fact, however, the fact of the matter is she was not honest during Voir Dire, jury selection. So how can you respect someone like this. She was not forthcoming in the beginning and she had ulterior motives. So how was this woman not sugar coating anything. If she were real, during Voir Dire she would have stood up and said, yes, I support this killer and his reckless actions. I am a racist, bigot and if Hitler were still alive I would elect him as President. Now that would be someone that earns respect for being real. She was not real from jump and I feel her interview was contrived as well with the fake tears for the Martin family, knowing all along she came in there with a closed mind, intent on crippling the jury pool with her shenanigans. Then come to find out in the end, it became about money more than justice, given this book deal bs. I cannot respect this bigot and I her actions are disgusting and shameful. She should be prosecuted for perjury and her name should be stricken from any other jury selection in the future. She cannot be trusted per her own words.

      • Malisha says:

        I don’t respect racists for doing evil and then saying things that show they’re not lying about being racists. I don’t respect B-37 for ANYTHING. I also think she was a bully and she manipulated B-29 and thus gave away the last hope our society had of making a statement that we won’t allow slave-patrol-killings in our country 230 years after emancipation.

        • jm says:

          Do you think B37 knew she was going to vote not guilty before the trial began?

          After her post trial interview, I am convinced nothing mattered to her than to find GZ not guilty.

      • cielo62 says:

        KateW~ I agree. Not to mention the “book deal” she already had in the works to make money off of teh death of an unarmed teen. Sickening.

        ________________________________

  12. Mary Davis says:

    I cannot bring myself to sympathize with B-29. I am not a hard hearted person by no means, but I can’t figure out why she went against what she believed in, and use the law as an excuse.

    Why couldn’t she stand by her convictions, after all she is an adult. She is not a child. If she was not up to the task, she should have gotten out of serving. She certainty qualified.

  13. KateW says:

    Maaaaaaaan! They are leveling threats again. Robert Zimmerman claiming the Martin’s don’t want to go there with a civil suit. Leveling threats will be met with a challenge. These people really don’t know when to shut up. They think they have that much power huh.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/26/george-zimmerman-civil-lawsuit_n_3659826.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

    • Two sides to a story says:

      That family is a bunch of bullies. Someone needs to bring them down a notch or two.

      • cielo62 says:

        Two sides- I think the civil suit will indeed bring them down several notches.

        FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

      • boyd says:

        that’s what the cousin said. Like the Martins will listen to him. lol!

        Sybrina just tacked on an extra 100 million.

        I predict most of America will turn their back on the Zimmerman’s.

        • concernedczen says:

          I hope there is a way they can sue the killer in Federal court rather than dealing with the corrupt Seminole County judicial system.

          • bettykath says:

            I think the federal court for that district is Orlando, Orange County, right next door to Seminole County.

    • boyd says:

      what do these people do for a living? I think Jr is trying to parlay this into another hannity show, Boy he is clueless, that would be so distasteful.

    • Malisha says:

      Abusers always have a lot of power.
      I’m counting on a real group of supporters to stand behind the Fulton-Martins, Crump and Jackson and Sharpton and Jealous to use the civil suit, at the very LEAST, to cut into the abusers’ power. We’ll see some fireworks and I don’t think the plaintiffs will be pulling punches this time around

      • KateW says:

        I feel they are asking for war. They think because they have racist backing them and sending in welfare that they can act a fool and clown. Sometimes people get what they are asking for and I believe they are asking for a lot of trouble. This staged rescue and now leveling threats. They are inviting the ruckus and someone will deliver.

    • Tzar says:

      they can threaten all they want

  14. boyd says:

    This was the first trial I ever followed the process. Why do they allow the Jurors to figure out the law on their own. Makes no sense, they listen to lawyers argue all day about law. Did I hear any Jurors have speak or ask questions? NO. They expect everyday working people to make a decison in 2 days withoiut asking the Judge detailed questions. Yes I know they sent A question to the Judge. Usually when I have a question there is a follow-up question, some study, and maybe a few more questons. I’m not that smart.

    What if a Juror says I dont get it? what happens?
    .

    seems to me the clock was more important than getting it right or the Jurors did not want anyone to thinkg they are dense, plenty people do not raise their hand in class.

    All the Jurors shoud have had a clear understanding.

    • Olivia says:

      Boyd, ” . . . a decision in 2 days without asking the Judge detailed questions”.

      I wonder how common/uncommon that is.

      “seems to me the clock was more important”

      Seems that way to me, too.

  15. commenting says:

    @ cielo 62 «if we have no expectations of people doing their jobs, y have trials at all» the FiNAAL DECICISION to not charge gz was made by the SPD……did serino or singleton object to this??….who did the contact about this decision if they were upset by it….did they contact the NAACP?……..no serino may not have been pleased with the FiNAL DECISION but his actions or lack of action indicated that he accepted it and probably accepted that there is nothing he could do about it….he was not going to fight the SPD on behalf of a black kid……HE ACCEPTED THE DECISION …Btw….when was he taken off the case?…..was it serino who did not charge gz with murder??…if so do you expect him to take the stand and say I should have charged him…..

    • bettykath says:

      The process used by SPD in many cases is for the police, in this case Serino, to write a capias, that is, a request for a charge based on evidence. Serino wrote at least 3, starting with m2 and finally manslaughter. The capias goes to the DA, in this case, Wolfinger. So Serino said charge him. Wolfinger says no. Wolfinger is the decision-maker who was publicly backed up by the police chief, Lee, who didn’t back his own detective.

      • Trained Observer says:

        None of this came up at in the criminal trial,of course. I wonder if such details would come up in a civil suit. .

      • commenting says:

        Thank you bettykath for reminding me, …………again I say that serino accepted the final decision that was made, he may not have agreed with it but he accepted it….life is not as simple as we think it is………who knows what serino may have said to others that would have made him look like a fool on the stand had he said that he believed gz was lying and should have been charged………………………..who knows maybe he was pressured by his peers to do somthing about the final decision that was made not to charge gz, maybe he was asked to CHALLENGE THAT DECISION AGAIN AND AGAIN, and he gave them a bogus reason why he did not, he probably did not agree with the decision but to avoid the pressure fron his peers, he probably told them he agreed with the decision and these fools would willingly come to court and say that serino told me that he did agree with the DA decision not to charge gz….then serino would have to explain why he said that….and he would be crossexamined for hours, and west or omama would ask him lots of stupid questions like…you meant what u said didn’t you?…you are simply changing your mind because of such and such aren’t you?….

        • commenting says:

          And these fools would come to court and say serino told me……..clArIFICATION….I WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT THE POLICE OFFICERS WHO WANTED GZ CHARGED….but the racist ones who may have heard serino’s explanation as to y he did not challenge the final decision by thr DA

        • bettykath says:

          JN ruled that opinions of police officers were not admissible. MOM asking for Serino’s opinion was out of order. State didn’t object until the next day. JN told the jury to disregard. B37 considered his opinion to be extremely important. I think the multiple capias would have been admissible b/c they were actions taken, but it would have raised questions about SPD, Wolfinger, Lee, the whole sordid mess. Serino had no choice but to accept Wolfinger’s decision. Doesn’t matter if he liked that decision or not. It was Wolfinger’s to make.

  16. Yes, as with the “extra” juror,same questions same answers as B37.

  17. commenting says:

    @ malisha sorry , I should not have spoken about your phone conversation with your freind…..I shoul know that things aren’t so simple……especially after I made the comment about people living in a fairy tail world

    • Malisha says:

      No prob, commenting. After I posted I felt bad. This friend is someone I have been feeling resentful toward (she didn’t talk to me for three years once because I sent a relative of hers a jar of chutney!) and I then began to think I had been petty and ridiculous getting so riled up by her “I told you soze” —

      See, we’re all (OK maybe not ALL) irritable because we’re all depressed and hurt. I remember how my granddog was when he had been bitten by a yellowjacket. NIPPED at me! I need to calm down and not nip. :mrgreen:

  18. KateW says:

    Yes, Robin Roberts did not ask the right questions or she did not ask enough. These should have been questions asked unless the attorney gave a list of questions to be asked.

    • boyd says:

      Anderson Cooper was the same way

      • KateW says:

        Yes. And he is usually a little better at asking the right questions. B37 didn’t have an attorney with her so he could have really grilled her.

        • crazy1946 says:

          KateW, Do we know for sure her attorney husband was not with her? I would expect that the question asked had to be pre-approved before the interview, or her husband (owner?) would not have allowed her to appear on the show… Only problem is that they miscalculated and the show and the book deal backfired on them…. We will have to wait for the movie to find out….

    • aussie says:

      It will take them one, maybe two more jurors, to twig something was very wrong in there, and then start grilling them. Maybe. If it’ll bring eyes to the screens.

      Then they can bring in who was visiting, how much supervision etc and they can make a nice little TV scandal about it. But it still won’t get investigated.

  19. Judy75201 says:

    I would like to know what B29 meant by, the law “was read to me”. By whom? Exactly when? I worry that the word “not” may have been left out. But maybe I’m just grasping at straws.

    • Santrina says:

      I would like the answer to those questions also!!!

    • elcymoo says:

      Remember, Judge Nelson read the instructions to the jury before they were sent off to deliberate.

      • Judy75201 says:

        But they would not have relied on their memories to deliberate. They would have re-visited those jury instructions.

      • crazy1946 says:

        When there was a complaint about how fast Judge Nelson read those instructions it was noted that copies (not copy) would be given to the jurors. You folks that are condemning Maddie would be wise to consider the possibility that her reading and comprehension skills are severely flawed and forced her to rely on other people to explain what was written in those instructions.. I may be wrong on this, but am I? I will say this, she exercised poor judgment in going on TV in this interview, but did she do it because of poor advice from a lawyer hoping to cash in on this tragic case? Can anyone give me a logical reason for her to have an attorney present? Of for even coming out and speaking in public? I think what you are seeing is a book deal in the making, or perhaps a strike against juror #B37 and her book deal, it will be interesting to see who the book broker is, maybe the same one that the other juror had lined up?

        • type1juve says:

          I think you’re right about the book deal. I think Maddie really wanted to get on that jury so that she could cash in on a child’s murder just like all of the other scum that has benefited from the killing. She didn’t give a damn about Trayvon Martin because if she did there is no way in hell she could have voted to acquit his murderer. Now she comes out and says she knows he committed murder but wants absolution for her part in setting him free. That’s the most fucked up shit I’ve ever heard. Maddie needs to GTFO with that bullshit. As for those here who defend her, you are entitled to your opinion just as I am entitled to mine.

          • jm says:

            “I think you’re right about the book deal. I think Maddie really wanted to get on that jury so that she could cash in on a child’s murder just like all of the other scum that has benefited from the killing.”

            Maddie sure was anxious to get on that jury wasn’t she? Given all of her obligations at home and at work, it seemed strange to me at the time.

            Now that she made her national TV appearance, I do believe she had an ulterior motive all along.

            She said some incredibly stupid things during the interview and I doubt she is going to go far as far as making money as a Zimmerman jurist.

        • cielo62 says:

          crazy~ maybe not a book, but a made-for-TV special.

          ________________________________

  20. Santrina says:

    Got this off twitter B29 lawyer David Chico was prosecutor in the killer’s 2005 file case assault on police officer . http://www.nbcnews.com/video/nightly-news/46910559#46910559

    • KateW says:

      Man you guys are fast! So dude is basically looking for a pay day. I wonder if he sought her out or she sought him out. If he contacted her, I thought it was illegal for attorneys to contact potential clients.

      • Malisha says:

        No longer. It used to sometimes be an “ethics violation” but nowadays not.

        • concernedczen says:

          You should read the crazy stuff on his website about “race hustlers” forcing the state to charge Zimmerman, etc etc.

          • crazy1946 says:

            Not one of you has posed the question of “did he have a wife on the Jury”? Hmmmm……..

          • concernedczen says:

            Interesting Crazy. That would be too nutty if the lawyer for B29 was the husband of B37.

            However, I think B37 said her husband was a “space attorney”…and she is a space cadet, so they are a good match.

            This guy is a former prosecutor. So not the same guy.

      • Dave says:

        How could he have contacted an “anonymous” juror?

        • crazy1946 says:

          If he had an inside source (such as a wife with #B37) the juror’s would not have been anonymous… Just a thought….. Probably wrong but is it??? It’s Florida where the unthinkable is normal…. No Florida oranges or grape fruit for me, if just being in the state that they grow in does that to people, they aren’t going in to my stomach…..

        • fauxmccoy says:

          @dave

          How could he have contacted an “anonymous” juror?

          my question, exactly! i spent yesterday staying out of the fray, but i certainly entertained this precise question.

  21. KateW says:

    Does anyone have an update or how can I find an update to the Chavis Carter case?

  22. Boyd says:

    Who is this Tee? Please, crying for B-29?

    BTW: Ladies, I don’t believe her anyway. If she thought he was guilty, then she knew he was a liar. So she acquits the liar anyway? She’s backtracking because of the backlash.

    Think of Nazi Germany, Serbia, Places where decent people are afraid to speak up or they die, now that I can understand. Afraid to hold your ground in a murder trial is different , no one will kill you.

    • KateW says:

      Certainly, however, the name calling is really out of bounds. I get it, why say you could have hung the jury but never did it? Why didn’t Robin Roberts ask her these questions.

    • aussie says:

      Die or lose their jobs or don’t get served in shops or their kids get beaten up weekly or their houses get fired bombed etc etc etc

      And there have been cases of people getting killed for their decision as a juror.

      Time to stop all this melodrama. You all pinned your hopes on this last juror. She let you down. Boohoo.

      Look at all the hate being poured on her here. Imagine what she’d be copping from the other side if she HAD hung the jury.

      And forget the crap justifications about “justice”. Justice didn’t depend on her. Justice depended on the police, the State, the prosecution, the judge, the jury fake sequestration………all a hung jury would have achieved AT BEST would have been a re-run of this trial circus, or more likely a decision to NOT retry o grounds of being impossible to get a conviction.

      • Malisha says:

        Justice did depend upon her as well.
        Justice depends upon every juror and everyone else.
        It depends on everyone.

      • boyd says:

        I dont care about B-29. Its typical a Juror several days after a big trial says what she said. Floridas Casey Anthony trial jurors said the same thing.

        she should have kept her mouth shut. what did she expect us to say? it’s okay that you have no spine? She threw gas on the fire and none of them should be talking.

        People are different, some are fighters, and love it , some people give in to always make those around them happy. and some like me are a little of both.

        This trial was about politics, NRA, SYG, Gun Control , vs Liberals. It was never about Justice for Trayvon and George Zimmerman was used as a pawn. He was never a racist, an early assumption, because people did not undertsand why do you shoot a kid carrying candy.
        .

      • Olivia says:

        I agree, Aussie. The anger stems from disappointment. The forum was bombarded with angry could have/should haves and self righteous I would haves after her interview, not before.

        What changed? Knowing how close she was to hanging the jury.

      • cielo62 says:

        Aussie-LOL! Your very sentence was pure melodrama! No I don’t we pinned our hopes on one juror. From the start I expected the US system of justice to work as established. That’s why I ended up staying here; to learn how it’s supposed to work. It was disaster after disaster, in an area immersed in racism that I had no idea still existed. Only to find out after the bitterness of the verdict that one person could have made a difference, but she was so weak, so flawed, so stupid to not insist on answers that she caved in and gave those fuckers the acquittal. It was an extra punch in our collective gut of what we don’t want America to be, but has obviously become. We have our own homegrown Florida Taliban.

        FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

        • concernedczen says:

          Aussie likes giving colored folks lectures on how they should be have and what they should think. And how Australia is not a racist country and how all “dark-skinned” people are not African Americans.

          Thank god she is here to educate us ignorant colored folks.

          • cielo62 says:

            Concerned- LOL! “Noblesse oblige”.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • aussie says:

            Oh, so you’re not interested in how you look to the rest of the world?

            Embarrassment maybe?

            Can’t be that don’t need new ideas — you’re doing such a great job by yourselves………..

          • concernedczen says:

            So now Aussie is the representative of the “rest of the world.”

            Wow, will the arrogance never cease?

            Here’s a clue Aussie, you DO NOT represent the rest of the world and Australia is a very racist country. You certainly only reinforced that picture with your continual condescending posts.

          • bettykath says:

            I appreciate Aussie’s comments. Aussie has never been vindictive or nasty.

          • cielo62 says:

            bettykath~ but certainly judgmental and condescending.

            ________________________________

  23. fauxmccoy says:

    the defendant in fact, got a jury of his peers. interpret that however you wish.

  24. smokeegyrl says:

    Well all, here is another SYG case for you to look forward too. http://www.fox8live.com/story/22938065/shooting-in-the-marigny

    • Nef05 says:

      I just saw that, coming across the internet. This kid is only 14 yrs. old, and of course, black. I don’t understand it. I truly don’t. Back in my day, the grownup would just stick his head out the door and yell “hey kid, get away from my car” or “get off my lawn” or whatever was applicable. This “shoot first, ask questions never” mentality, I just can’t get my head around it. These are KIDS!

      Here’s another link, from the Times-Picayune:
      http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2013/07/marigny_homeowner_booked_after.html

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I don’t get it either. Will never understand why it’s okay to kill someone over property or why people suddenly feel their life is in danger over some minor fisticuff. WTF.

        • Tzar says:

          doesn’t sound like there were any fisticuffs
          just the kid going over the fence was the threat apparently
          I reads like statutes will find his actions justified if his yard is considered a dwelling (see below)
          http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=78338

          • Nef05 says:

            Our state law says “the common law of this state applies except that the duty to retreat before using deadly force is not required if an individual is in his or her own dwelling or within the curtilage of that dwelling.”.

            I’m not sure what “curtilage of that dwelling” is, but reading it in context, I speculate it is a reasonable area of property surrounding the dwelling. This is Michigan law. Knowing how ALEC/NRA expands the law as far as possible, I’m going to presume LA law is similar. I see that what you linked (B-1,2) does not mention “curtilage” specifically, but do you believe they won’t extend the definition of “dwelling”?

            I don’t know. At one time I would have said “no, the law is specific”. Now, after seeing how “intent” was twisted into “intention” in a totally different context, I’m not sure that “dwelling” won’t indeed be twisted into the actual building as well as the property it directly sits on.

            Did you see how the neighbors were quick to talk about how close the car was “to the back door”?

  25. Rachael says:

    I don’t know how to copy and post this right, but it just came up on my Facebook feed from Axiom Amnesia

    The Buckeye Firearms Foundation wrote a $12,150.37 check to George ‪#‎Zimmerman‬ to be used for guns, ammunition, protective gear or a security system. What an unworthy cause!

    Like · · Share · 54 · 25 minutes ago ·

    • lurker says:

      On behalf of the entire state of Ohio, please accept my sincere apologies. We have our own loonies and gun lovers up here, sorry to say.

    • aussie says:

      Some gun shop already offered him a free gun. He’ll spend most of it on fast food.

      • anita says:

        he is a fat ass pos. probably lives off pure fast food & junk food. that’s why he couldn’t poop. dear God. i can’t believe i just said that, way too gross. sorry, time for me to go tonite.

        • commenting says:

          Constipation is a side effect of certain medications

          • Puck says:

            He was on an IBS drug, Librax.

          • Rachael says:

            It also consists of a benzodiazepine (like the other benzo he was on – they can be very bad for some people)

            Librax is a drug consisting of chlordiazepoxide and clidinium bromide and used to treat peptic ulcers, irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), and gastritis. It helps relieve stomach spasms, abdominal cramps, and anxiety related to gastric disorders.[1] Librax is a fixed ratio of these two medications and, as such, is not typically prescribed with an accompanying dosage, but rather how many capsules per day are to be taken. It comes as a capsule to be taken by mouth and is usually taken three or four times a day, before meals and at bedtime.[1] Chlordiazepoxide is an anti-anxiety medication belonging to the benzodiazepine class.[2] Its use in IBS is thought to be due to its calming ability for patients that have IBS symptoms that are worsened by anxiety. Clidinium bromide is a synthetic quaternary ammonium antimuscarinic,[3] a sub-class of a family of drugs known as anticholinergics. It works in IBS by decreasing gastrointestinal motility.

            Chlordiazepoxide can be habit-forming. Tolerance may develop with long-term or excessive use, making this medication less effective. This medication must be taken regularly to be effective. Stopping the drug suddenly can worsen the condition and cause withdrawal symptoms (anxiousness, sleeplessness, and irritability).[1]

          • pat deadder says:

            fogen is a murdering hypochondriac drug addict who is scared of his own shadow.He killed Trayvon because Trayvon was screaming in pain and fear and I’m sure fogen had received the call from the police who he asked to call him when they got there and he would tell them where he was.So he shot Trayvon knowing he could be in deep shit if he let his victim live.or maybe not maybe theSPD had a way to cover that up as well.

        • J4TMinATL says:

          Lomotil is prescription too even though it’s combined with atropine. No biggie.

          Adderall and Temazepam aren’t a big deal either.

          The medications he was prescribed IMO played no role in this case.

    • Xena says:

      Before he murdered Trayvon, GZ went through $18,000 without anything to show for it. $12,000 should last him just long enough to buy drugs for himself, ShelLIE, and whatever new recruits he can get to start up another gang who will go to jail for him and not “pinch” his ass.

  26. commenting says:

    At first when I stated getting interested in this case….I said that gz panicked and he shot Trayvon….he was paranoid and let his paranoia get the better of him…his mind started running when he realized he could not easily subdue Trayvon, so he panicked and shot trayvon and he lied about the incident to avoid going to prison………………….jurorb29 knew gz lied about alot of things, the other jurors howeve, managed to preach about intent to kill in her head throyghout the diliberation….I will keep saying if the prosecution had made an effort..she would not have been influenced that eadily

    • commenting says:

      The prosecution should have played the recording of the singleton and serrino interrogation, where gz decribed hat took place before he shot Trayvon…the prosecution should have focused on that struggle, and showed how rediculous gz..s testimony was….trayvon leaning oner with all his bodt weight suffocating gz, then looks bak, see a gun, reaches for it with one hand while leaving one hand on gz’s nose, gz gets the gun first so Trayvon procedes to bash gz head one more time…really….and the shot was intermidiate ra

      • Malisha says:

        I don’t remember the exchange we might have had, commenting. Specifically what was the subject of the flap? I was thinking about what would happen with a cynical but not cynical enough mind.

        What’s your field of work or education or your special secret that cultivated more cynicism than even I can muster?

        One of my comments just vanished; I got a weird message. So tired.

        • Boyd says:

          He said so so many weird things. That it actually helped him. it would have taken the Jury 2 months to analyze all his bullsheet.

          A shame, chalk him up as a liar and move on. That damm Serino knew he was a pathological liar. it’s why he said it, he was told to go along with the defense and the prosecution.

        • commenting says:

          We did not have any exchange..otherss kept saying that I was a troll and you were the only one who said you didn’t think I was one…..and what cynicism are you talking about??..that cynicism is called life….your freind warned you about the outcome, she told you that Bernie was throwing away the case and you were rude to her on the phone…I hope you have apologized to her…………………………..what ever happened to the FBI investigation?….did they investigate coverup?…well the only person that left was the chief of police……….I remember reading an article that the SPD is being recacredited? Or somthing to that effect….that past homocides involving blacks are being looked into…..how could the cops not charge gz from day 1??…how??

          • Malisha says:

            Commenting, I agree about the SPD and Lee and the investigation etc.

            But PLEASE don’t climb on my case about being rude to my friend on the phone. You walk a mile in my moccasins first, OK? She did say BDLR was messing up earlier than I was willing to throw in the towel but about how I responded to and reacted to her phone call and her warnings? This is someone with whom I have had a 20-year history. She has called me at midnight and talked until 2:30 a.m. and when I fell asleep on the phone she’d dress me down angrily. She has been pessimistic about everything in the world and she has threatened suicide about 100 times putting me into a situation where I feel responsible but cannot do a thing to help her. She has enormous assets and has never earned her own living although she is a lawyer and yet, when I was in need of assistance she did not come through once. So when I sounded off at her on the phone it was not just rudeness and I don’t accept a scolding from you; it was also my understandable belief that she doesn’t really think about my feelings when she is pounding home her criticisms on the phone. Nobody does anything right; they are all incompetent; lawyers are all worthless; nobody has ever done anything right; bank tellers are idiots; car mechanics are buffoons; doctors are dumb careless overpaid morons; etc. etc. etc.

            She got to me even though that day technically she was right.

            No, I did not apologize to her. But I do still take her calls.

    • Boyd says:

      No, He got pissed off and shot the kid. anger management class, remember?

  27. dianetrotter says:

    What happened to Carmen?

  28. MDH says:

    I told my wife a year ago that GZ would get off. I based that on people from that part of Florida that I have come in contact with.

    I came here because this is an island of sanity in a world gone mad.

    • a2nite says:

      I’m avoiding FL until it gets better. It’s too dangerous for this black woman and her family.

      CA here I come.

    • MDH says:

      I got to worry about my wife and kids.

      Besides, I would much rather spend my coin in Negril for a vacation than Florida.

      Or there is Dakar.

      • Boyd says:

        I’ve been to Dakar, Senegal. I recall the downtown part was right on a walled beach. That was a long time ago. I’m sure so much has changed I would not recognize the place. Back in the days when the best way to travel was by ship on the West African coast

        It would not be my choice. San Diego.

        • Ms.X says:

          I got really sick in Dakar. I was so sick, I let a Dr. inject me with an unknown substance. I was so sick, I started taking my clothes off on the airplane back. Luckily, my boyfriend stopped me. I was so sick, when I got to the tropical disease clinic, the receptionist looked at me and put on a mask. Some thought I had malaria. My hotel room window faced Goree Island. I was right on the ocean & it had a breeze. I said, “lets turn this AC off and enjoy the fresh air.” When I woke up in the morning, my face was contorted from mosquito bites. Then I said, “i’m not scared of this food. Bring on the bacteria.” I ate the salad which was washed by the water & you know you cant drink the water. I ended up with a virulent strain of strep throat in the end. It was a weird trip. I did enjoy a resort in Saly, Senegal though.

      • MDH says:

        I have been to the resort in Sully. I enjoyed swimming in all the connected pools and admiring the topless French women. The garden is also quite extensive and beautiful.

        I like ships and they turn them around quickly there. From the beach by the hotel one sees and endless conveyor belt of Handymax ships going on over the horizon.

        The last time I was there I stayed in the Savana-Jardin Hotel. That one does have a nice view of Goree Island. My wife was staying with her dying mother along with our first born, so this was kind of a conjugal visit for me. Nine months later, my second daughter was born :).

        There is a surfing beach in Yoff. Yoff is a higher end suburb of Daker. My wife was staying in Liberte. I enjoyed taking my daughter and all her cousins to get ice cream from their home. Unlike our gated world in the USA, the streets of Dakar are vibrant with people engaged in talk or commerce.

        It is a long flight from Dulles via South African Airways. The plane sits on the tarmac for about an hour to refuel on the way to Johannesburg. Not many people get off at Dakar. So when I got off the white South Africans asked why are you getting of here?
        The implication being why would a white man go to this dump. I just replied “to see may wife and kid, of course”. The stunned looks on their faces was worth the remark.

        My point is I like to go where there are no racist or snobby assholes whose only purpose in life seems to be to mock and demean others.

        Senegalese people are very friendly.

  29. commenting says:

    Would like to say that I was kicked off this site before under a different username…my name was AVA…..MALISHA Sstood up for me when other were calling me a troll because they did not agree with or misundertood my comments…..I simply stated what the state would argue and commenters on here thought I was a gz supporter………..I was baffled…….I remember warning that a not guilty verdict might be reaced and Trayvon’s parents should be prepared for such a verdict whwn many on here was confident that a guilty verdict would be reached…..

    • commenting says:

      Some people on this site act like they live in a fairy tale world, they only want to hear what they want to hear…what makes them happy……well the facthat gz was only arrested after thousands took to the street to protest that life is unfair………..some folks on here actually BELIEVED THAT SERRINO AND SINGLETON WOuld testify to help the prosecution…..REALLY PEOPLE…you all are that simple minded…..to believe that the officers would take the stand and say that they did not believe gz…..you actually thought that they were gonna turn againt the SPD….what gave you guys that idea………I never expected Bernie to question serino on anything that related to coverup……….about his suggestion that gz should be charged with manslaughter……some people need to wake up from their fairy tale world that they live in

      • cielo62 says:

        At least my fairy tale world would not include know-it-alls like you. Yes many of us expected the police TO DO THEIR JOBS. How amazing us that?

        FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

        • commenting says:

          Did they arrest and charge gz with any crime??…did they taje their time to do a proper investigation when they found a dead BLACK kid face down in wet grass??

          • cielo62 says:

            Serino wrote several capias to arrest gz and charge him. Yes I had every expectation that that little fact would be discussed in court. He tried to do his job. I expected him to tell the truth. Indeed if there are no expectations of people doing their jobs, why have trials at all?

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

        • aussie says:

          CIELO STOP BEING MEAN AND NASTY AND HATEFUL.

          It is time you STFU fora while.

          • cielo62 says:

            Aussie- after you, lad. After you. You talk all platitudes but have no idea of the steel it takes to make moral character. This is one area I will never stfu about. If you don’t stand for something, you will fall for anything. This “lady” fell face first because she refused to stand for justice.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • aussie says:

            Here we go again. Assumptions.

            I am not a “lad”. I’m old enough to be your mother, and if I were, you’d have had your mouth washed out with soap by now. You have no idea what I have an idea about. You’re just being rude AGAIN for the sake of it. That’s what you do, apparently, with people you disapprove of.

            Among other things I stand for FACTS and EVIDENCE. So far on the subject of Maddy we have one controlled softball interview. I am interested in finding out more of what happened and how it happened, but can imagine a number of possibilities.

            You have not asked a single question about what may have happened in there. You’ve just assumed the worst, condemned her for it, and jumped on her with both feet — and have the cheek to claim it’s righteous outrage.

            Your outrage is not evidence and not evidence-based, in this as in another case we had an issue about a while ago. It is sickening to listen to you while you claim to be a decent person who’s in the right.

            Now STFU you’re making this site look like CTH.

          • cielo62 says:

            aussie~ I will certainly NOT STFU, not for you or any other sorry, mealy mouthed apologist! There is EVIDENCE that a remorseless killer has been released. What more do I need to know? BTW, what “facts and evidence” have YOU brought to light here? NOTHING! All we HAVE is B29’s sorry half-assed apology, placing blame on the “other horrible bullies.” Are THOSE facts? After teaching for 20 years, I can tell you those are certainly NOT “facts” nor is it “evidence.” Kids use those excuses all the time to get out of trouble. And B29 is an ADULT who let herself be bullied, LET HERSELF be bullied into releasing a murderer. And honestly, why are you picking on just Malisha and me? Many others here ALSO see the moral depravity involved with ALL the jurors, culminating in the total capitulation to “evil by expedience” embodied by B29. I already suggested that we drop this, because MY CONSCIENCE will NEVER allow me to think so shallowly as you do. We cannot agree on this, so DROP IT.

            ________________________________

      • lurker says:

        Well, I gotta confess, I did expect more from Serino and Singleton–more in line with what I heard in their
        interviews. But, I also didn’t find their behavior surprising, either. Public servants serve at the whim of the latest political appointee–despite certain contractual protection. Most get to see a number of reformers come and go and develop a certain amount of cynicism as a result. Whatever stood in the way of an arrest was likely more systemic than individual. And the state took him off the case–and likely left him marooned with the folks they were considering incompetent.

        • commenting says:

          When I say tHeY , I mean The SPD…..serino and sigleton, did they speak against the FINAL DEECISION to not have gz charged???

        • bettykath says:

          The problem with their testimony is that the state did nothing to impeach it or to let Serino talk about the rest of what needed to be said.

        • roderick2012 says:

          lurker: Well, I gotta confess, I did expect more from Serino and Singleton–more in line with what I heard in their

          I don’t know about Singleton, but we already knew that Serino had no moral core because the witnesses stated publicly that when Serino interviewed them he told them that it was George who was screaming.

          Serino later claimed that he only arrested Piglet because the blacks in the Sanford Police Department pressured him.

          But what convinced me that Serino was rotten to the core was when he chose Baez to be his attorney.

          Of the thousands of lawyers in the state of Florida he chose someone as ethically challenged as the man who used every type of manipulation to get a mother who was involved in her daughter’s death acquitted.

    • commenting says:

      Oops..what the DEFENCE would argue

    • commenting says:

      Oops…what tje defence would argue

  30. diary73 says:

    I plan to deliver this speech at my next Toastmasters meeting:

  31. anita says:

    I have said she’s not very smart, & has too many kids, but I don’t think I have been mean about her. I have enjoyed your comments today & on the last thread. I agree with part of what you’ve been saying. I think she was bullied horribly & was weak. She was ganged up on, no doubt. Some people just cannot stand up. I’ve tried not to say hurtful things about this lady, because we don’t really know what went on. Oh, this is for Tee, come back one day soon, I hope.

    • concernedczen says:

      Then she should tell the truth about how she caved instead of pretending that her verdict was the right one.

      • longtimegeek says:

        I think she’s still too emotional after the shock of the public reaction to this case. I think her head was spinning. I think she needs more time to calm down, so she can think more rationally. She instinctively made statements about the evidence being there to find GZ guilty of murder 2. But, she also talked as if she were repeating the words of other jurors–at least that was my interpretation. I hope we hear from her again, after she calms down and collects herself.

    • bettykath says:

      I take issue with the not very smart, unless it doesn’t take a smart person to see m2. hmmm, maybe you have a point.

      The number of kids she has is none of your, or my, business. It certainly isn’t up to us to judge. Would she fare better with you if these were kids that she adopted? how about family members who died and left orphans? how about some of those kids being her own siblings she has taken responsibility for? There are way too many possibilities for us to judge her.

      I agree that she was probably bullied. To stand as long as she did with little or no help says she isn’t weak. In fact, she held her ground longer than the two who wanted manslaughter. Then she was alone. Unfortunately, she needed a break, like a good night’s sleep and was undoubtedly pressured into going along by others lying to her.

      • anita says:

        You are 100% correct about the kids. Not very smart is a bad way to put it. I just think she misunderstood the jury instructions,& the so called help in understanding them was probably meant to manipulate her. Many things went wrong in that jury room, we do need to hear more from her & the others. This lady seems like avery nice person. She at least did get it right in the beginning. I can only imagine what it was like for her when she stood alone. Thanks bettykath for your comment, I’m not a mean person, rereading my comments I can see how they sound to someone who doesn’t know me.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I think you can be intelligent and still be confused as B29 was by the jury instructions, the law, and the actions of two men that led to a murder.

    • KateW says:

      Anyone can be manipulated. Even the smartest of us. Because it appears she has a good heart with good intentions. The only one for murder 2. She did not come into that jury box with a predetermined verdict. I take issue with the 3, I am sure those 3, which include B37 had a verdict in mind given her statements. She also had ulterior motives given this book deal etc. So those are the jurors I take issue with.

      That is why they call it deliberations and not manipulations. Folks get together to “deliberate” and not “manipulate”.

    • cielo62 says:

      Anita- I don’t care if Tee returns. She was more than willing to let this person escape her responsibility for releasing a killer to kill again. If we as a society don’t hold people accountable, where does that leave us? Evil has many faces. The most sneaky one ” oh, I was confused. It was easier to agree with everybody”. I will NOT say that it was ok for her or ANY of the jurors to let gz go free. But she was the last chance for some justice. And she let evil win the day. If one can’t see that, I don’t know what to say.

      FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

      • anita says:

        ~cielo~ Thanks for the reply,you’re right, except, I don’t think Maddy is evil in any way. I’m thinking she was just not up to the task, not her fault. I got an ass chewing from bettykath &I think I was one of the least critical of B29, Maddy. I will use her 1st name from now on, she did after all show her face. What she did by caving in was wrong. She probably should’ve never been on the jury in the 1st place. As for Tee, I kind of felt like she was being ganed up on today. This is serious,’ It ain’t beanbag’, I just feel bad when someone who sounds nice & sincere is almost attacked for their tho’ts & feelings. I used to be way more critical & even mean at times. I like to think I’ve calmed down & become more understanding than I used to be. Oh yeah, I’m not that old yet, please! keep it coming everybody, maybe just not so damn mean sounding.

        • anita says:

          i meant ganged up on

        • bettykath says:

          didn’t mean to chew ass. I was just disagreeing with you and trying to show another way to look at b29. no anger on my part.

          • cielo62 says:

            Bettykath- I respect your thoughts. I guess I just can’t stand the way some people feel its ok to allow excuses from Maddy. Character education is one thing I do, both personally and as a teacher. I educate about choices and consequences. She made her choice. It was a poor one. She should realize that it will include scorn and anger directed at her. She should at least own that decision. But like a guilty child, she blames others for her poor choices. As she is an adult, I refuse to be lenient with her like I might be with a child who is now only learning. Ok. I think I’m dropping this now. I’m very angry that she might have made a crucial difference. But it’s over. She has to live with it. God protect her kids from raging armed racists when her kids aren’t white enough.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

        • cielo62 says:

          Anita- no, I don’t think Maddy the person is evil in any way, either. But she didn’t do her moral duty, and that had real consequences. A murderer has been freed. I truly believe he will kill again. Her refusal to act as her heart told her as well as the law is what is evil. The act of capitulation. Giving in in the face of injustice. If we don’t show our disapproval as a society, then honesty and courage have no value. I’m sorry I’ve gotten very passionate about this issue. No, she’s not the only one at fault. But she was that last door before the damn broke. She didn’t hold. It’s more than a damn shame. It’s a major lack of moral character.

          FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • roderick2012 says:

            @ cielo

            I believe you’re forgetting the context of this trial. This trial was fixed on every level–judge, prosecution and jury.

            Even if B29 had held out it still would have been a 5-1 hung jury the State would have used the almost acquittal as an excuse not to refile charges against Piglet.

          • Malisha says:

            When he kills again, the police will have to cover it up so totally that nobody finds out at ALL. It will have to be “John Doe was killed and we can’t find the bullet and we don’t know who killed him” and Fogen will have an ironcla alibi (four priests and a bus full of nuns and two Senators and a sheep-dog will have to be 700 miles away with him in an awards ceremony where he was being honored for saving a white child who was about to eat high fructose corn syrup).

            Because if anybody finds out that he killed again, with his gun, there WILL be riots and there WILL be people tearing down the courthouse and there WILL be violence and no sweet words from POTUS SCHMOTUS or alagraMOtus will be able to stop it. And B-29 will never be able to serve on another jury, either.

          • cielo62 says:

            Malisha~ Sad but true. I will be there dismantling part of the outer facade.

            ________________________________

      • lady2soothe says:

        @ cielo62

        As usual I agree with your entire comment…. I feel B29 used the “they made me do it” escape route to alleviate admitting she caved to intimidation. I have no doubt she was bullied and pressured but considering she admitted “I was the loudest juror” it was up to her to uphold justice by voicing her objections *loud* enough to at least hang the jury. If she felt so threatened she should have let the court know she was being manipulated. I’m sure no one was covering her mouth or had her handcuffed to a chair. There was a guard standing outside the jury room, therefore screaming for help was an available option as was slamming her hand on the door to make known she was in need of assistance. At the very least, she could have agreed and when polled by Nelson she could have easily stated the situation and voted “NO” in the courtroom.

  32. Tee says:

    @ professor, i have seen this woman called stupid, dumbo, a coward criticized for the amount of kids she have and have her job, her means of providing for her kids belittled. WOW, sounds like exactly what pro Zimmmermans have been doing the entire time. Blaming this woman for GZ crime. As I said before had BDLR stood in front of that jury and stressed to them the importance if holding onto their vote then maybe we would have a different outcome. One thing I know for sure is that there are some really mean people here and I care not to be a part of it. I loved reading your articles and the comments that followed but I bid this site goodbye. I am a lot of things but hurtful, mean & narrow minded is not one.

    • bettykath says:

      Sorry to see you leave, Tee. Hope you reconsider. I understand completely. I left once, too, when things got nasty. I just read the Professor’s lead and stayed away from the comments. After awhile I started to scan the comments and things got cleaned up. But you’re right, it’s back to attack mode. It’s no different than those who attacked Travon and his family. Looking for understanding is good, but attacking, belittling, etc. is just a big turnoff.

      • Malisha says:

        Bettykath, with respect because you know I respect you, I don’t like to see a comparison between someone who attacks ANYONE for an opinion being compared to “those who attacked Trayvon and his family.” It’s just not the same. Attacking Trayvon and his family is in a way way WAY different league. In my opinion it’s criminal; it’s murder-enhancement.

        This has nothing to do with the original flap between Tee and whoever else was in the flap (I rarely read these so I don’t really know who got into the ring) … I just needed to say that.

    • sadlyyes says:

      you are so right,and above it all…must be great to KNOW everything at such a young age…i am in awe

    • KateW says:

      I agree, I understand the anger and that is why I said earlier I didn’t like the attacks on her because it is obvious they manipulated this woman. I understand both sides because on one side she allowed a killer to go free and on the other side of that she has to live with a verdict it is obvious she did not agree upon. She should have gone with her gut, but one thing I feel about her is that she did not come into court with a predetermined verdict like some of the other jurors, B37, so far to name a few.

      But I am not liking the tone towards her. I don’t agree with her verdict but like I said it is clear she now knows she made the wrong decision. She should have said I am sorry, I made the wrong decision now that I look back on it. I wish I could change it. It is something I will have to live with. I am sorry I wasn’t strong enough to stand up to these people. Now she needs to spill the beans as to what went on, exactly went on, during deliberations. Because I would like to know.

      • cielo62 says:

        KateW- a very good post. She didn’t apologize. She cast blame in the others. If she had indeed taken responsibility, I might be less harsh. Believe it or not, I tell my SECOND GRADERS that, at the end, it is YOUR decision and your consequences. Nobody can do it for you. She, and others , have not learned that fundamental moral truth.

        FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

    • texad says:

      Tee-

      I’m right behind you. Think I’ll take a timeout myself. In my younger angry radical days I used to be mean and hurtful. I know I hurt a lot of people with my words and for that I’m sorry. These days I try to critique rather than criticize.

      I know that there is a higher power in control and all the mess that is being revealed will lead to victory.

    • @Tee

      @ professor, i have seen this woman called stupid, dumbo, a coward criticized for the amount of kids she have and have her job, her means of providing for her kids belittled. WOW, sounds like exactly what pro Zimmmermans have been doing the entire time. Blaming this woman for GZ crime. As I said before had BDLR stood in front of that jury and stressed to them the importance if holding onto their vote then maybe we would have a different outcome. One thing I know for sure is that there are some really mean people here and I care not to be a part of it. I loved reading your articles and the comments that followed but I bid this site goodbye. I am a lot of things but hurtful, mean & narrow minded is not one.

      @KateW

      I agree, I understand the anger and that is why I said earlier I didn’t like the attacks on her because it is obvious they manipulated this woman. I understand both sides because on one side she allowed a killer to go free and on the other side of that she has to live with a verdict it is obvious she did not agree upon. She should have gone with her gut, but one thing I feel about her is that she did not come into court with a predetermined verdict like some of the other jurors, B37, so far to name a few.

      But I am not liking the tone towards her. I don’t agree with her verdict but like I said it is clear she now knows she made the wrong decision. She should have said I am sorry, I made the wrong decision now that I look back on it. I wish I could change it. It is something I will have to live with. I am sorry I wasn’t strong enough to stand up to these people. Now she needs to spill the beans as to what went on, exactly went on, during deliberations. Because I would like to know.

      Something needs to be explained here for those who do not understand white supremacy.

      B29 is not stupid.

      B29 is not a a helpless victim.

      B29 understands as she did in the jury room that as the only “woman of color” on the jury she would be ostracized by the white power structure if she voted her conscience. She knew that the white power structure was STRONGER than the justice movement that would not protect her kids the way it DID NOT protect Trayvon Martin.

      B29 made a decision the way many “people of color” make every day to forgo their conscience to feed their kids.

      B29 got out of that jury room, saw the activism, and realized she needed to make empty gestures quick (speak out of both sides of her mouth like a seasoned politician) to abate the tide fury from the black community of which she does not identify but realized some people did. Her actions were calculated and self-serving.

      If B29 truly feels manipulated, slighted, guilty, etc. she needs to educate herself real quick and start proactive involvement.

      That is what a responsible adult would do (e.g. Sybrina Fulton).

    • Judy75201 says:

      I agree with many things you have said, Tee. I don’t know why, but I am much angrier at and put much more blame on B37 than I am at/do on B29.

      • Malisha says:

        I blame 37 much more than 29 too. It does take six to tango, though, and we only heard from two of them so far.

    • I’m on your side of this argument.

      I hope you reconsider your decision.

    • longtimegeek says:

      My husband disagrees with my partial sympathy for B29 and holds her more culpable for the verdict than the other jurors, because she knew better. The bottom line is that we both believe that B29 made a huge mistake and whatever caused her to cave in is very sad. She’s not hard for us understand, because her gut instincts and heart are the same as ours. I have a much harder time understanding B37, so I’m more critical of her.

      • boyd says:

        I’ve seen nothing here that was so bad,

        Tee wants to read bad. Go to stormfront and read what they have to say. B-29 had it easy, sit in a room and argue for 2-4 days, or just sit there and say nothing.

        B-37 is easy to figure out. Prejudice to the core and surrounded by it ,such that she does not know what she sounds like.

        .

        • bettykath says:

          I’m not sure what your point is, i.e. did she argue or not. From her interview, she did argue her pov.

  33. Ms.X says:

    Here is a video re a civil rights group asking that Angela Corey be removed from the case & response from John Phillips. I didn’t want to post it on the July 25th section….

    • concernedczen says:

      John Phillips is full of it. He is all about promoting John Phillips.

    • KateW says:

      I wonder why she did not try the Trayvon Martin case or why wasnt she in the forefront? Maybe she was on another case, but I have to agree that they don’t want this case moved. Could end up in Seminole county lol

      That Governor doesnt want to be bothered at all it seems. I think the people of that state should take him out of office.

  34. MDH says:

    A lot bothers me about the jury.

    The Scream

    They took the testimony of a guy whose wife previously testified that Georgie Cream Puff helped them with a political campaign as having weight with respect to testimony given by disinterested parties, i.e., people who did not know Puff.

    When I went over the testimony, I ruled out all interested parties and could only conclude by a preponderance of evidence that there were two voices heard and that the second scream was by a person different from the first and probably the younger person.

    The defense voice expert also was allowed to testify and did day that only family could recognize a scream that sounded like a person who was facing imminent death.

    In a world of 2+2=4, a reasonable person would concluded that the evidence tilts towards Trayvon being the source of the scream.

    Then we add the one of about a thousand Georgie Cream Puff non-consistent statements.

    He stated that Trayvon was pressing hard on his nose and mouth.

    How is he able to scream in that position?

    So the evidence strongly tilts to Trayvon being the person screaming.

    These people did not do shit,

    They just picked people they wanted to believe and took whatever they said as the word of God.

    • lurker says:

      I do think that Donnelly should have been challenged more heavily than he was. He was presented as both a character witness as well as an ‘expert’ of sorts in voice recognition. Claimed to have learned as a medic to be able to recgnize the identities of people that he knew when screaming. Talk about voodoo science. And his character testimony should have been countered in rebuttal.

      • concernedczen says:

        Donnelly should have never been allowed to testify.

      • McHell says:

        Donnelly should have been asked on cross (amongst many other things): “In all of those countless times you had to respond, as a medic, to a screaming soldier on the battlefield, sir, was there ever a time when that screaming soldier just got up and walked away without needing any further medical treatment, not even so much as a single band-aid?”

      • anita says:

        What an old ass that Donnelly was, he even cried. How can people not see straight thru somebody like that?

      • MDH says:

        Without living in a cave, how could have Donnelly avoided hearing that scream on TV?

        That scream was playing on all the major 24/7 news channels all the time and TVs are all over the place.

        Ironic that audio experts were not allowed to testify, yet self-appointed ones were A-OK.

        • concernedczen says:

          It was a kangaroo court. Judge Nelson should be ashamed of herself.

        • anita says:

          Also Donnellys testimony should’ve been stricken for violation of sequestration. But probably wouldn’t have mattered since they payed no attn. to JN when she struck the one part of Serino. That old fart & his wife made me sick. What fools they are for believing lying fogen.

        • he heard that scream plenty of times when he was in court the week before listening to them play it over and over again. He lied when he said he first heard it on the saturday…he even told the court he had tried to avoid hearing anything because he knew he was being called as a witness but then he showed up to court every damn day and sat listening to all the evidence….and they got away with it by saying they couldn’t tell everyone about sequestration….fuck me, he already said himself he was aware that he shouldn’t know anything as a witness and then sits if fucking court. And what of the defense team? Did they not SEE him sitting front and centre. They knew who he was yet they didn’t tell him to leave. That was one of the biggest bullshit calls by Nelson…

    • type1juve says:

      The scream was a death shriek and those women know that. They also know it came from Trayvon, they just don’t care. At the end of the day none of the evidence against Fogen mattered to them. They were determined to set him free and they did. Shame on them for that.

      • Elizabeth says:

        The prosecution should have hammered that home so many times that it would have been utterly ridiculous to even suggest
        that it could have been fatsos voice.
        They should have given a graphic warning saying you are about to hear someone being murdered (I apolegize your honour)and if that is the defendants voice how come he is sitting right there with his belly
        pointing at you!
        Only Mantei spoke the truth but it was at the motion for aquittal
        so the jury didn’t hear it.

    • longtimegeek says:

      GZ was calm immediately after shooting TM once in the heart with a ready to shoot gun. His vitals were normal. If he were the one screaming, how could he be so calm immediately afterwards? If he were the one who was so freaked out by having his life threatened, how could he be so calm afterwards? Why did he only shoot once? Why did he immediately stop screaming after shooting once? Even if he were innocent, how could he be so calm after killing someone?

      So, TM wasn’t the one yelling and screaming continuously during those 40+ seconds, because he was too busy slamming GZ’s head into concrete, punching GZ in the face, smothering GZ’s nose and mouth, reaching for GZ’s gun that ended up being pointed straight at his heart? GZ was just a rag doll this whole time, not trying use at least his arms to defend his head, face, etc., and still able to yell and scream continuously despite having his head slammed, face punch, nose and mouth smothered, etc.? When GZ finally thought to use an arm, he grabbed for his gun? So, TM didn’t even scream when he saw GZ’s gun pointed straight at his heart? When GZ was able to point his gun straight at TM’s heart, that’s when he changed his yelling and screaming to blood curdling screaming? No. No way. No possible way. GZ was calm and cold blooded from beginning to end. All of GZ’s actions and behavior were entirely consistent with calm and cold blooded murder and inconsistent with yelling and screaming continuously for 40+ seconds.

      Months later, on Hannity, he was still calm and cold blooded. He had no regrets, wouldn’t change a thing and said it was God’s plan. Shoot. I feel bad and have regrets when I run over a dumb squirrel. Swerving out of the way doesn’t work. Slamming on my breaks doesn’t work. Keeping my same speed doesn’t work. Deer are pretty dumb, too, but I managed to avoid hitting any of them. I finally decided that I had to stop driving by a forest preserve to and from work to avoid running over squirrels. GZ felt less about TM than I felt about the squirrels. He didn’t do anything to help TM after shooting him. If I could have done something to save a squirrel, I would have. GZ was calm and cold blooded all the way around.

      • Malisha says:

        “I wish there was something, anything I could have done to make it so that it wouldn’t have had to happen”

        =

        “I ain’t gonna say I’m sorry I bagged my thugra but I’ll fix my mouth to say if there was a computer game that coulda made it come out diffrint I’da gone for that for a minnit.”

    • Jasmine says:

      You would think that women would understand blood evidence more. Women all know that water doesn’t remove blood that easily and for these women to disregard the fact that Fogen’s blood was not on Trayvon’s clothes at all is beyond stupid. And why would this supposed mold only remove Fogen’s blood? As I said they have no sense whatsoever. None. Zip. Zero. They cherry-picked what evidence they thought would support their theory and that is all.

    • Malisha says:

      MDH, also, the scream cut off when the shot was fired. Can you scream like that AND aim a gun one-handed and fire? Try!

      • dianetrotter says:

        Malisha, calmly scream like that and take careful aim to not shoot your left hand while having your head violently banged into the concrete. What is described sounds like a cartoon.

        • jm says:

          It does not seem to me the prosecution emphasized that the screaming stopped after the shot even though GZ claims he did not know he shot Trayvon. For that reason, why would GZ stop screaming for help?

  35. MichelleO says:

    Call me when fogen’s dead.

    • KateW says:

      lol. We cant continue to sweep this under the rug. Who will be next. We have to keep talking about it and urging things get done.

    • Danita says:

      lol lol……Michelleo priceless…..

    • Malisha says:

      I hope to catch up with you soon by phone, MichelleO!

      👿 😈 😆

      • jm says:

        That extra weight GZ carries can’t be healthy – so many health issues come from obesity.

        I also suspect Zimmerman has a degree of suppressed guilt that haunts him. I see that in the dark circles around his eyes.

        There may be backlash from his family who probably know he is guilty and will eventually shun him. (I do wonder if GZ supports them financially from his web site contributions and how long those contributions will go on.)

        By now, GZ has to realize he is a loser who many hate so he is never going to achieve anything in life other than killing a black teen.

        There are vigilantes who consider GZ a threat to them that GZ needs to constantly worry about.

        All things considered, I do not see a long life ahead for Zimmerman.

        • cielo62 says:

          Jm- I agree with your assessment. Gz might view himself as untouchable , but the reality is no where near that. He’s gonna get touched soon and he’s gonna get touched hard.

          FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

        • Ms.X says:

          I would agree with you but in my heart I know he is a sociopath. He really cant empathize with another human, not for all the cows in TX. I remember an interview where he said he went to his psychiatrist after the murder & how upset the Dr. was & how he was telling him it was a big deal. No doubt he (& omara) has told gz things like, “you should be remorseful. You should be sad that a person died,” so gz remembered this and made reference to it at certain times so he could appear more normal. He isn’t. I think he lives & sees things based on his thoughts rather than anything you and I might see as reality. A dispatcher says, “we don’t need you to follow,” & he hears, “I need an address.” Why? Because he saw it as justification for what he was determined to do. He is highly abnormal.

          • Malisha says:

            He didn’t hear “I need an address.” He lied about that. He heard, “We don’t need you to [follow]” and here’s what he thought:

            “Shit. This guy doesn’t want me to follow but I’ve got to follow or this asshole will get away. So I’ll just tell this guy OK and he’ll shut up and I can do what I want.”

            Fogen: “Just have them call me when they get here and I’ll tell them where I’m at.”

            Translation: “I’m gonna follow because I want to and you can’t tell me not to. So I’ll go catch myself a thug and I’ll have him restrained at gunpoint [after he tried to commit a crime] when Timmy arrives so I’ll get my awards and honors and I won’t have to pay rent or put up with all this crap like paying bills any more.”

            Fogen IS in fact a pathological liar. He EVEN lied to Serino about having his associates’ degree in criminal justice when there was no INCENTIVE for that lie. He wouldn’t be any less or more guilty of a culpable homicide with a degree than without; he is a pathological liar and belief in anything he says is misplaced. That doesn’t mean we can believe the OPPOSITE of what he says either (and in many cases there IS no actual “opposite”) because he just says whatever he thinks will play at any moment to give him what he wants.

          • type1juve says:

            Yes, he is a dangerous sociopath and my fear is that he will kill again. He has been emboldened and has the adulation of his many racist fans. That jury gave him and others like him the stamp of approval to go out and murder black people.

  36. MichelleO says:

    I don’t know how some of you can do it. I can’t continue on with this sad, sorrowful story. I can’t look at that phugger’s grinning face, and I can’t read anymore stories about this.

  37. KateW says:

    Question. In cases where the laws seem to be prejudicial to one particular group than another, can someone file a lawsuit claiming this. For example, Marissa Alexander received 20 years for standing her ground. It is now shown that this particular law, if you got by the statistics, favors one group over another. If it can be shown that particular groups of people have a higher incarceration rate under this law than lets say certain other groups, what can be done. Perhaps I am not asking this correctly.
    Can a person, who can show that a law violates their civil rights, human rights by being prejudicial to one group over another, can they file a lawsuit or take it to the Supreme court?

    What can people do in cases where they show the laws show certain prejudice to certain groups.

    • KateW says:

      Has this ever been done in a case before where a person filed suit against a state or law claiming it violated certain rights?

      • lurker says:

        Not sure about a precedent, but I would imagine that sort of thing would be considered by then DOJ under the general heading of Civil Rights.

    • The Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment prohibits discrimination based on race, gender or religion.

    • Malisha says:

      I think the SYG laws should taken up to the US Supreme in a class action civil rights suit. It is, first off, unconstitutional to deny civil lawsuit rights based on one judge’s decision not to prosecute for a crime. Secondly, SYG laws, like the death penalty, are applied prejudicially. I think Marissa Alexander’s would be the perfect test case.

    • Ms.X says:

      I think part of the formula for getting away with it is that, if you kill the person you have a greater chance of getting away with it than if you just discharge the firearm (reckless). Its all about the killing. I think if we keep up the pressure & LAW SUITS, the statistics will prove that the law is applied in a racist manner.

  38. Ty Flair says:

    It’s like her saying I saw a child drowning in a pool but could not help because it had a sign in the yard that said private pool,she said I wanted to help the child but by law the child had to drown. All this lady did was throw gas on this fire that burn in our heart.

  39. MDH says:

    Comparing the softball interview of Serino with Georgie Cream Puff to the Jacksonville PD interrogation of Dunn tells me all I need to know about Serino.

    • Trained Observer says:

      For sure.

      Am equally confident, however, that Serino is quite capable of playing hardball when he wants … but this case was a Chief Lee/Norm Wolfinger deal where it didn’t pay to do anything other than to cover ass and look the other way. It’s called self-preservtion and hanging on to the old pension. It’s also called disgusting.

  40. lady2soothe says:

    Bringing this forward from yesterday’s post

    Juror B29 admitted she was the juror who originally wanted to convict Zimmerman of second-degree murder. “I was the juror that was going to give them the hung jury. I fought to the end” and yet she gave in to her spinelessness, simply because she didn’t have the courage to stand HER ground and convict him. If she thought he was guilty, she should have said so when it mattered not as an afterthought for a TV interview.

    Juror B29 claims “I’m hurting just as much as Trayvon’s mother” Yeah right…. NO lady, your 8 kids were safe at home during the trial but now they’re fair game for any wannabe cop because YOU and your 5 cohorts let a murderer walk free giving any ole’ somebody with a concealed weapon the right to claim self-defense while roaming the streets profiling, stalking, confronting, aiming, pulling the trigger and shooting a bullet deep into the heart of another adolescent’s torso.

    Juror B29, until you’ve lost one of your own children YOU will NEVER “hurt just as much as Trayvon’s mother.”

    (I don’t want to use this commenter’s name without first clearing it with them) ….. I know we want someone to blame but you can’t blame this woman. The SYG law was used that’s what the judge wrote for them. So if you want to blame someone blame the crapy job the prosecution done. Had they really tried by preping their witnesses, putting on a rebuttal case, and playing Trayvon voice from another recording we would have had a guilty verdict. You can’t do a half ass job and expect the verdict to go in your favor. They knew what they were doing that’s why Corey didn’t prosecute this case herself.

    ME ….. I most certainly can and do blame Juror B29 for her flimsy attempt to deflect the blame of her pathetic weak-willed need to acquiesce to the pressure exerted by other jurors convincing her to change her mind and vote “not guilty” because she “didn’t realize how important she would be to the case.” She also doubted the case should have even been brought to trial, calling it a “publicity stunt.”

    Let’s see, she was chosen from a pool of 500 to sit on a high profile case with ONLY 5 other women and she considered her participation an “UNIMPORTANT publicity stunt?” She held the power in her hands and she chose not to use it, instead, she allowed peer pressure to dictate, allowing GZ to walk.

    Juror B29 needs to take responsibility for her decision, own it and live with the consequences of her submissiveness. Her conscious has gotten the best of her and she’s looking for sympathizers to help justify her compromise of justice and convince the viewing audience it wasn’t her fault. IMHO she’s a coward who didn’t exercise her rights to freedom of speech or the right to agree or disagree.

    Juror B29 needs to realize, she too will be subjected to: You can’t get away from God. And at the end of the day, he’s going to have a lot of questions and answers he has to deal with.

    (Hopefully not) but maybe someday in the future one of her son’s will be walking to the store, is racially profiled and killed due to his dark skin. Then and ONLY then will she know and feel the “hurt just as much as Trayvon’s mother.”

    I wholly agree with the remainder of your comment.

  41. McHell says:

    Zimmerman was acquitted because the jurors were either unable or unwilling to follow the judge’s instructions and jury instructions.

    Juror B37:
    This juror said Sanford Police Detective Chris Serino made a big impression on her. “He would have known how to spot a liar, and yet he testified that he believed Zimmerman.”

    Too bad Judge Nelson instructed the jurors to disregard that testimony by Serino about Zimmerman’s credibility. Yet she went on national television and admitted that the stricken testimony “made a big impression” on her. Big red flag number one.

    Juror B29:
    This one claims she thought she had to acquit unless it was proven that Zimmerman intended to kill Martin.

    The jury instructions could not have been more clear that intent to kill was not a required element for either murder 2 or manslaughter. They said “in order to convict of second degree murder, it is not necessary for the State to prove George Zimmerman had intent to cause death.” How on earth could anyone misinterpret this instruction so badly?

    These jurors ignored the judges’s instructions about stricken testimony and clearly misinterpreted the law as described in the jury instructions. What a shameful outcome.

    Ignorance and simple-mindedness is what set Zimmerman free.

    • jm says:

      The ignorance and simple-mindedness (plus a little shadiness on the part of B27) is what makes me think there needs to be professional jurists and not random off the street people who have personal issues and varying degrees of intelligence.

      • jm says:

        Sorry I meant B37 is who I perceive to be shady whose husband was a lawyer, was anticipating a book deal, and had lots of preconceived notions about “George”, his intentions and his “heart”.

        • anita says:

          ~jm You make good points. We all know fogen has no heart. That B37 is just a horrible person, she sickens me every time I think about the things she said. Maddy- B29 maybe could have stuck it out if she had help from the other 2 NG voters. I’d love to hear from them, they folded 1st.

      • McHell says:

        I started to feel the exact same way after the Casey Anthony trial. Many jurors seem to lack the intellectual horsepower to reason effectively, and on some level it seems totally insane to call on untrained, inexperienced people to make the most important decisions.

      • michael says:

        My thoughts too. To pick juriors who had not heard of the case meant they were not Mensa candidates

    • boyd says:

      yes , add to it the sequestration vilolations ,Did not realize they can be pushovers.

  42. lsimon3321 says:

    There is a new story that the Sheriffs’ Dept allowed the jurors unsupervised visitation on the weekends. Can this case be called a mistrial because of jury tampering and GZ returned to face another jury?

  43. Tzar says:

    She is a coward, a derelict and just as disingenuous as B37
    I can’t listen to her anymore

    • cielo62 says:

      Tzar- AMEN!! A spineless, double talking coward!

      FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

      • jm says:

        Don’t know for sure what was going on in the jury room or if B29 was unwittingly conned into believing she could not find GZ guilty based on the law as interpreted by other jurors, even though she believed he was guilty.

        From ABC: Despite her feelings about Zimmerman’s guilt, the juror said that she was persuaded to vote to acquit the one-time neighborhood watch volunteer because of the instructions by the judge about the standard to find someone guilty of second-degree murder.

        “As the law was read to me, if you have no proof that he killed him intentionally, you can’t say he’s guilty,” she said.

        This juror and B37 only proves the need for professional jurists or judges who know the law.

        • McHell says:

          I would love to see this woman confronted with the following direct quotes from the final jury instructions:

          “In order to convict of second degree murder, it is not necessary for the State to prove George Zimmerman had intent to cause death.”

          “In order to convict of manslaughter by act, it is not necessary for the State to prove George Zimmerman had intent to cause death…”

          • jm says:

            I think she relied on other juror’s interpretation of the law and those other jurors had more than 1 agenda including but probably not limited to B37.

            Now I want to know B29’s agenda to go on national TV with this lame story.

        • cielo62 says:

          Jm- or jurors with an IQ higher than room temperature.

          FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • jm says:

            cielo62, I am guessing the manipulative juror B37 has an IQ above room temperature and I think she had an agenda.

            I want professional jurors who know the law and go by the law and guided by bias and/or personal issues.

            I believe I have an IQ over room temperature admit I do not know or understand the law nor am I able to interpret legalese. 😉

          • cielo62 says:

            Jm- but you would ask, right? And wait for clarification? I’m not sure there could be truly unbiased professional jurors. Unfortunately they would need to be human beings. And they are innately illogical.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

        • I disagree. Professional jurors would become cynical and believe everyone is guilty just as judges do now.

          Rarely will you ever see a lawyer advise a client to waive a jury trial.

          • colin black says:

            Well lets get a computer decide .
            Not the kind we use at the moment but a real computer .

            From the old days like the code breaking enigama machine.

            Not realy but Like the super computer they built that won Jeapordy.

            Im sure a super computer could bebuilt an a progrme devised to moniter an dechipher evidence witnesses ect.
            An also distinguish truth from fiction.
            The advent of quantum computers is looking to be more like fait acompli that scince fiction now.

            An when that happens they will be able to intergrate human an machine ie quntom computers that will send our data an computing levels of the scale.

            Forinstance it will be possible to store more bits of data stroke info on a quantum computer.

            Than there is matter in our univerce an that doesn’t just account for evey single star or planet in every galaxy in existence.

            No that means litterlly every bit of matter in the univers both at macro an micro level
            Every single atom within every piece of matter from a chair to a sock to a star an every proton in every atom in the entire universe .
            With that kind of computeing power an data storage potrntial being envisaged on something smaller than a pin head.
            That’s what quantum pc are going to offer comeing generations.

            But Im sure by then we will all be able to inhabit our own worlds virturaly so crime will become obsolete an so will jurys.
            If you want to live in a world where you can kill shoot an rape people indiscriminately then you can.

            Likewise if you want to inhabit a peacefull harmonious world then that can be your choice.

    • anita says:

      I hardly think B29 is nearly as bad as B37. B37 is a huge reason this debacle happened. They saw weakness in B29 & exploited it to the fullest. We need to know all that went on during those 16 hrs.

      • anita says:

        excuse me, debacle isn’t strong enough, wrong word choice

      • Tzar says:

        16 hrs….think about that
        at the least she could have made a motion like O’mara for a continuance of deliberations…good grief

        • aussie says:

          ALL communication with the judge had to go through the foreperson.

          WHO WAS THE FOREPERSON?

          She didn’t even send back more details on the manslaughter request. Why?

          Anyone the foreperson won’t cooperate with is a virtual prisoner in the jury room. A hostage with no way out.

          WHO WAS THE FOREPERSON?

    • Trained Observer says:

      If not more, Tzar.

      We pretty much knew B37 was a white racist, and possible plant. But we hoped common sense or a late-breaking sense of shame would prevail. Fat chance, it turned out, especially with her pending yet now cratered book deal.
      Hopefully, she’ll be the butt of jokes for a long time to come, and a pariah among decent whites in her community.

      I will never forgive B29, however, for her stupid comment about feeling just as bad about Trayvon’s death as his mother does. It takes a truly ignorant ass to say something like that. She is beyond mere jokes and ought to have her tubes tied.

      • Tzar says:

        for her stupid comment about feeling just as bad about Trayvon’s death as his mother does.

        Given the civility of this board I will not repeat what went through my mind when I read that. I can only assume she is trolling, No one is that stupid.

        • jm says:

          That was truly ignorant and insulting to Sabrina. She could not possibly know how she feels. If she could, she would have hung the jury.

      • anita says:

        Yes, she is ignorant & has too many children already. Surely she won’t have more. She needs to take back the comment & beg forgiveness for ever saying it. That comment just doesn’t even make any sense, it’s so crass.

      • cielo62 says:

        Trained Observer- well, after 8 kids, you’d think she would have by now…

        FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

      • Malisha says:

        A pariah among decent whites in her community?

        What would she care what they (both or either of them!) think?

  44. Tee says:

    You know what, i have been on this site since the begining, my daughter was friends with Trayvon & her father & I had to try to console her after she found out that he had been killed. She grew up with him and was heart broken and scared that if it happened to him it could happen to her dad, that he was tall, dark skin & male. So this hit home for me. With all that I have said I can’t believe that some of you here are so cold and callus with yor words about this woman. She did what she thought was right even if we don’t agree with her. Damn some of you guys claim to want justice but only when it goes the way you see it should. Maybe she misunderstood or was bullied, as some of you here believe but had the prosecution stood firm and explained things better told those juror that they should hold onto their vote, explained manslaughter didn’t just glossed over it, maybe we wouldnt be here sad and upset. Place the damn blame where it belongs the prosecution and the Sandford polce for both doing half ass jobs and not seeking justice for this child. But God knows all things and all the verdict did was made us as black and every person that stand for justice for Trayvon, was to now fight, raise our voice and change things that if this case hadn’t come long would have never been adressed. We all have our opinions but damn, there is no tolerance here and that’s sad.

    • cielo62 says:

      Tee- “tolerance”?? You mean like the tolerance to let a killer LOOSE even if you believe him to have murdered a child? “Tolerance” like letting this case go, since after all “the jury has spoken”? “Tolerance” where we as a society allow people to be spineless, brainless, without morals or character because nobody wants to hold people accountable? That is INSANE. I will and do hold this woman partly to blame for gz being free to kill again. Gutless and faithless that woman is what is wrong with America. She knew better but did nothing. No. You will NO TOLERANCE FROM ME!

      FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

      • Tee says:

        I really don’t care if you have tolerance for her but if you want to blame someone not doing anything start with all of the people that night that heard him cry out for help and never came out to offer any. Than with the police, next move to the witnesses who lied. Don’t stop there move on to medical examiners, the judge for allowing Dee Dee to be badgered, oh include Dee Dee herself because lord know she didn’t come across well. Lets not forget his mom for sending him their in the first place. Let’s blame everyone except the person who got us all here GZ. You don’t have to practice tolerance not for my sake or any other person that’s your choice, just like it’s mine to practice having some.

        • Mary Davis says:

          @ Tee, I believe you are missing the point. We all knew what was going on even before the trial began. We had faith in the justice system, but when we saw how the trial was going, we knew the fix was in. We all know where the blame starts and ends.

          Do you think this juror has been living under a rock. She has a 20 year old. She knows, believe me she knows that fogen killed Trayvon in cold blood, and she didn’t do anything to stop a cold blooded killer from roaming the streets of Florida.

          I would be ashamed to show my face, much less to say the things she is saying, after all she is saying that she thinks fogen is guilty. If she really thought that, why didn’t she stand up for what she believes in. She is a pathetic person in my book.

          • cielo62 says:

            Mary Davis- thank you. Any person of moral standing should feel deep outrage at this Woman’s cowardice. “Tolerance” has no place for evil. This is how evil is allowed to happen: people who know better DO NOTHING and thus evil continues to flourish.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

        • Tzar says:

          I really don’t care if you have tolerance for her but if you want to blame someone not doing anything start

          where have you been?

          start with all of the people that night that heard him cry out for help and never came out to offer any

          where have you been?

          han with the police, next move to the witnesses who lied.

          where have you been?

          Don’t stop there move on to medical examiners,

          where have you been?

          the judge for allowing Dee Dee to be badgered,

          where have you been?

          oh include Dee Dee herself because lord know she didn’t come across well.

          where have you been?

          Lets not forget his mom for sending him their in the first place.

          lolwut?

          Let’s blame everyone except the person who got us all here GZ.

          it is at this point that I will suggest you take 5minutes…hell take 5 days
          and reconsider what you are typing, because it is not coming across the way you are meaning for it to come across…I think

          would you suggest we blame Casey Anthony for being acquitted?

          what are you really trying to say here?
          We can blame the killer for killing Trayvon but we certainly can’t blame him for his acquittal, considering he did all he could to help us put him in jail. You are really being unfair to this killer.

        • cielo62 says:

          Tee- the very first thing I said is that there is blame enough to go around. I hold them all blame worthy. Each failed in their duty which lead to the final step. But that last step is as important as the rest. She failed and a murderer has been freed. And you want to “tolerate” that? WHY?

          FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • sadlyyes says:

            if we tolerate children being chased,hunted down,frightened,then shot to death,while begging for his life,i choose to be intolerant

        • cielo62 says:

          Obviously “tolerance” means something to you or you wouldn’t be scolding everyone for what you see is a lack of that aforementioned tolerance. Honestly, what do you want? “Poor little juror! Bullied by all those mean women who wanted to let a remorseless killer go! Sure I feel sorry that she now feels bad that gz can kill again! ” if YOU can live with bullshit in the name of “tolerance” then I pity you.

          FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • tinytruthseeker says:

            You seem to have the corner on “scolding” and name calling too today….. I respect your need or want to vilify EVERYONE connected to the INJUSTICE…. I feel EQUALLY free to express my DISTASTE for the HATEFUL HATE-FILLED words directed toward this juror…. so you GO FOR IT…. but don’t get all twisted when a few of us prefer to follow a different path….

        • texad says:

          @ Tee
          I agree with you and am so sorry your young daughter has to face this ugly side of America. I have two grandsons who have closely followed this case. After the verdict our village of family and friends that we are a part of have had painful discussions with them. It is sad because I have seen a light go out of their eyes. I am a child of the 60’s and never would I have believed the country of my birth would have made so little progress. But again, I do understand because it is all about white supremacy-which undergirds every system in America from top to bottom. Schools, churches, courts, media. We don’t have to heap all the blame on Juror B29, because there’s enough for everybody to accept a part. And if we do not understand that we will not understand anything.

          • colin black says:

            Erm you must read a differing version of this blog.
            In my bizzaro universe I seem to be able to communicate with yours Its called Americverse ?

            Anyhoo in my Univrese there is not a single comment where up on is it even hinted.

            That this feckless woman should be heaped with ALL THE GUILT

            Theres enough for everyone to have there own pile.
            foggage he can have a big pile
            the people whom watched listened an played statues as a child begged for mercy an his life they can have a big pile
            The inept raceist joke of a police force S P D they can have a big pile
            An the renee stutzmans an other raceist bigoted media hacks they can roll in a big ole pile

            Are you starting to get the picture

            This Child MURDERER Didn’t just kill an walk free because of one persons misdeeds or two or three but fucking millions of people of a like mind that

            Think anyone whom followed this case start to finnish

            Would be IGNORANT enough to scapegoat one person for this debacle

            Then you obviously cannot comphrehend the depth of knowlage accrued by some an to be honest most people whom contribute here.

            No one in my Universe is nieve enough to believe one person is responcable for foggage walking free.

          • cielo62 says:

            Colin- exactly. But don’t hesitate to pile on where a pile is deserved.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

      • Mary Davis says:

        @ cielo. I fully agreed with you. I hold B-29 solely to blame for letting this murderer walk free. She did not have to be intimidated by the others. We know some were stealth jurors, but what was B-29 thinking to let the others persuade her in her thinking. Did she not know how serious this trial was? I do believe she knew she was letting a murderer go free. This is so sad. She should be ashamed of herself.

        I have no sympathy for her.

        • dianetrotter says:

          She could have asked to talk to the judge. I did. Maybe it wouldn’t have helped but she could have tried. When they were polled individually, she could have said “I’d like to speak to the judge.” That would have been a signal that something was wrong.

      • aussie says:

        That’s enough of the name-calling , Cielo. What about the 3 that wanted to acquit him from the word go? how is this woman worse than those, in your opinion?

        She “knew better”??? she formed an opinion. That is not “knowing”. She was browbeaten out of it. People get talked into changing their opinions all the time

        So you are refusing to TOLERATE people being human. Good one. Might have something to do with what’s wrong with America.

        • cielo62 says:

          Aussie- really? You can change your mind from doing what is right to letting a killer go? I am not so weak willed. Didn’t think you were, But I guess I was wrong.

          FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • colin black says:

            As the words came from her own mouth.
            She said he was guilty an the world moves in circles .
            One wrong answer one right.
            The world moves in an elipse not a circle it spins in circles but moves in an elipse.

            An the words came out of her mouth HE WAS GUILTY but the world moves in circles.

            No she talks in circles she ADMITTED HIS GUILT .

            An yet let him walk why.

            Wouldn’t have been the first miss trial .

            She contradicts herself an obvious lie.

            If she was conviced of his guilt why would she talk another jurour into STAYING an not causeing a miss trial.

            If she were conviced of his guilt an she said she was.

            Why not back the wann a be walking jurour

            An say yup go for it walk lets hang this sucking bigoted jury hell I will walk along with you.

            So that in its self is a blaytand contradiction

            As Judge Judy would yell

            IT DIDNT HAPPEN THAT WAY YOUR LIEING.

            That’s not name calling its telling it like it is.

            She admitted his guilt she let a guilty man walk they all did an she went along with it.

            No fighting to the end she caved

            Otherwise we would be blogging about a retrial an not the Monsters aquitall

            She admitted his guilt an therefore she admitted her own guilt also

            M O O
            An that’s not my opinion only moo is the sound that comes out of that forepersons attorneys wifes trial tampering jury rigging bitch of a jurour there all part of the chain of circumstances that let.
            A child murdering sociopath dumb as a rock murdering piece of scum walk.

            No name calling just fact checking.

          • cielo62 says:

            Colin- “fact checking” and you got them all covered. Thank you.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

    • Tzar says:

      Maybe she misunderstood or was bullied

      she had a deputy and a judge to go to
      she simply did not think this kid’s life was worth her time or passion
      when members of the community behave this way they have to b taken to task
      cuddling her and her bullshit does nothing good for society

      • sadlyyes says:

        Amen… thiss wil happen again,and again,and again,once Mark O becomes Amerikas lawyer….say no to bullshit,say no to moreEXCUSES….say no more Caylees,or Trayvons,or any innocent child,or adult

        • cielo62 says:

          Sadly- exactly! Which is why people are standing up and saying ” we will no longer tolerate the intolerable. No more free murderers based in the victim’s skin color!” We as a society should NOT tolerate the intolerable.

          FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

    • Tzar says:

      there is no tolerance here and that’s sad.

      a man was caught on tape torturing and shooting a child in cold blood then proceeded to vilify the dead child and lie about his actions

      and all we did was type a few words on our computers
      trust me, we are really fucking tolerant
      as a matter of fact disconcertingly so

      • Trained Observer says:

        x 2

      • type1juve says:

        x3

        • colin black says:

          Exactly personages such as foggage an dunn the creeps over at the treehouse would not be so tolerant.

          Words are not enough for there likes an dislikes.

          They use threats an doxing an intimidation.

          An if they can get away with it they would shoot an kill an innocent child in a heartbeat.

          Because that’s how they roll wher as people of a more refeined an level thought process realise

          There is no damage greater that anyone could inflict on foggage .
          Than the damage he has already inflicted on himself an all his kith an kin.

          An its an on going prosess him an his ilk are going to destroy themselves an all whom are stupid enough to be in his orbit when he crashes an burns.

      • cielo62 says:

        Tzar- true, true. We keep our intolerance civil. Unlike gz and his gang whose intolerance causes death.

        FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

    • Tzar says:

      Let me put things in perspective for you
      she said The killer got away with murder
      which meant that the presentation of the facts, otherwise called the rial, for whatever it is worth indicated this to her; so for all intents and purposes she is stating that the prosecution did their job. but then she claims that the law prevented her from standing her ground and finding him guilty
      I find this UNACCEPTABLE because
      1. that is the whole point of a living juror as decider, she had the power to define the law to fit the truth and the moral proper
      2. NO FUCKING THING EVER WRITTEN BY AN FUCKING MAN WILL EVER CONVINCE MY CONSCIENCE TO LET A PERSON WHOM I BELIEVE COMMITTED MURDER BE FOUND NOT GUILTY; I don’t care if the ink and paper are made of gold; that is the sole reason why I am there as a juror. They would have had to just appeal of have another trial because those two thoughts cannot survive in my brain. remember she is the one who stated that she belie he committed murder.
      She has essentially divulged that she has no conscience.

      • McHell says:

        I could not agree with you more. IMO, the jury instructions are clear in explaining that if one has an “abiding conviction of guilt” that does not vacillate, then one should return a verdict of guilty.

        The idea that a juror could be convinced of the defendant’s guilt, based on the evidence and estiminony presented, but somehow feel compelled to acquit, is mind boggling. It makes no sense.

        • aussie says:

          She was persuaded that the LAW SAID OTHERWISE.

          Start finding and blaming the people who persuaded her about that.

          • cielo62 says:

            Aussie- really? Again, she KNEW gz killed and was convinced it was murder. What “law” allows murder? She’s lying to try to get sympathy and escape responsibility. At the end nobody “forced” her to acquit. She is scum.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • Tzar says:

            nope she can’t hide behind her interpretation of the law there is no law that says your conscience can ignore murder
            this is what she is claiming

          • McHell says:

            It says in plain-English that the State is NOT required to prove intent to kill for either charge. It says so in two different places within the instructions.

            They all had a responsibility to read, understand and follow the those instructions.

          • aussie says:

            Apparently that is NO SO, McHell. Apparently they were given one copy of the instructions (27 pages of it) and the foreperson had to do all the reading out for everybody….with how much understanding or accuracy we don’t know.

            Easy for you to cherry pick one or two paragraphs out of those 27 pages.

            Blame a system that weighs down amateurs with 27 pages of legalese (which even here we were confused by despite the Professor’s expert help) and leave them to the mercies of a single interpreter.

            She may feel something was murder. The law may say it was not. That happens a lot: in fact that is why they had instructions for a lesser charge and could have had for several other lesser ones.

            Get off your high horses all of you. Stop condemning someone when you don’t know the full circumstances. It’s real easy to say
            I would have” “I would have”. All y’all can’t even pass the test of being decent to a stranger whose circumstances you know close to nothing about, in a situation you know>/b> was dirty from the start.

          • Malisha says:

            SHE said she had to acquit because the law forced her to.

            But after all, perhaps that is not true; perhaps that is a rationalization. After all FOGEN said he had to kill Trayvon Martin because a near-fatal beat-down forced HIM to.

            Sometimes a person’s own explanation of why he or she has done something completely unacceptable is … well, … not true.

      • sadlyyes says:

        standing Ovation

      • sadlyyes says:

        this will happen again

        Santayana is known for famous sayings, such as “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it”,

    • bettykath says:

      Thank you, Tee. I agree.

      • Tee says:

        You are welcome!

        • tinytruthseeker says:

          Ignore the taunts Tee…. I admire your heart and I feel blessed just to know someone that knew Trayvon and has walked beside Sybrina…. you have shown the same grace and dignity that she has been teaching us all every day…

          • cielo62 says:

            If you will notice- Sybrina has NOT “tolerated” anything! She is constantly fighting for justice. I’m sure she is very “dismayed” at that final juror and will refrain from calling her out for it. Doesn’t mean she is tolerant if the grave miscarriage of justice B29 allowed to occur. And neither should any if us.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • aussie says:

            Cielo, pouring hate onto this juror, and calling down all kinds of suffering on her is NOT FIGHTING INJUSTICE. It is adding to it. Wake up to yourself.

          • cielo62 says:

            Aussie- HOW is that adding to injustice? We cannot, and I will not, accept one sorry excuse for this person to excuse herself from failing in her duty to execute justice. Consequences should include our scorn. It would be a grave injustice to allow her to get away with a sympathetic “there, there. You did the best you could. ” Well she did NOT do the best she could. And a murderer is free because of it. To add insult to injury, she doesn’t even apologize or accept responsibility for her moral failing. Explain how showing our moral outrage at a spineless immoral person is adding to injustice. Doing the right thing is seldom easy. She caved in and took the easy way. And now she’s crying that we hold her in contempt for it.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • aussie says:

            Cielo you are not showing moral outrage. You are wishing all kinds of evil and disaster on this woman; you came very close to wishing one of her kids gets killed so she’d know what it feels like.

            You do NOT KNOW what went on in that room.

            All you know is YOUR dreams of a conviction didn’t come true so now you are kicking the closest dog you can find. Maddy was the last person in a LONG chain of why GZ didn’t get convicted. You don’t know what happened. You’re just saying YOU would have been SO perfect and done the right thing. YOU DO NOT KNOW. Talk is cheap.

            You don’t even have the courage to give someone the benefit of doubt pending MORE FACTS coming out. You’re not even asking questions what happened or how it happened. You just want to KICK SOMEONE. And that is injustice and covering it with righteousness is just adding insult to injury.

          • cielo62 says:

            aussie~ let’s just leave this alone. I disagree with you 100%. I have a responsibility to express my outrage at this woman and others and will continue to do so. She FAILED to stick by her guns; why should I forgive her? I don’t HAVE to know what went on in that room. I don’t NEED more facts. I KNOW what happened after they decided to leave, and now a murderer is free. I don’t have to wish Karma on her; it will happen. She’s an idiot for even suggesting she could possibly know what Sybrina is feeling. She won’t know that unless she’s in a similar situation, which  she has made possible by letting gz free. Sanford is drenched in innocent blood. Every scum who refused to follow the law is guilty. Her hands are dripping with it.

            ________________________________

        • Kelly Payne says:

          @TEE you shouldn’t blame ms futon for sending Trayvon to be with his father while serving his suspension. Neither she nor Tracy had any way of knowing a nut job would be lurking around that neighborhood that night. the blame rests with the dirt bag who killed him and the adults who heard his cries and did nothing. And those who were willing to lie for him and the police officers who failed in their duties and instead decided to cover their butts. I also blame the jurors who also heard his cries and just brushed it off. I don’t buy for one second that they think murderman was the one screaming.

          • colin black says:

            Ditto Might as well say the blame lies with Trays Mom An Pop getting passionate the night he was conceived an having sex.
            If Trayvon had gone unborn then none of us would have had to mourn.

            You send your son the burbs in a gated community as oppsed to the City Of Miami your thinking he is going to a safe haven

            Not the playground of a self apointed sherrif whom thinks he is quick draw mc graw?

    • Trained Observer says:

      Tee — Stop to consider about what you’ve said. It makes no sense, and it puts your level of thinking on par with that of B29, or possibly B37. That’s not good, because it lets murderers go free. Drink some prune juice. Take some vitamins. Rethink.

      • Tee says:

        I’m young sweetie I don’t need prunes. I graduated from one of the top HBCUs in this country so I’m far stupid. I jog 6 miles a day so vitamins are not needed get mine the natural way through the food I eat; raised in a diversed family cousins are Haitian, one Half Cuban, and myself biracial, father’s white, mother’s black, both religious crazy too because one was raised Muslim, the other Christian. So honey nothing you say offends me I’ve seen and heard it all since growing up biracial in the projects in Liberty City, Fl durning the 80s was exactly easy. Save your insults honey, they did nothing to me then and they do nothing to me now. Some of you are worst than out housers and don’t even know it at least they let the world know they are narrow minded and awful people up front. Ever wonder where the old bloggers that use to visit here have gone?

        • cielo62 says:

          Tee- honey, I’m still here. Blogging at young empty minds like yours.

          FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • Tee says:

            Cute! So am I!

          • cielo62 says:

            Tee- maybe you meant sympathy. One could feel sympathy that she was tried and came up wanting. But we cannot tolerate this; that is why do many have responded with petitions, protests, and blogs. We can no longer tolerate the intolerable. One could sympathize with weak person, like an alcoholic in a night club. But like that alcoholic, drinking is not the only option. And caving into injustice was also not a option.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • Tee says:

            And for your yor info my empty young mind graduated at the age of 15 from highschool then college at the age 19 with a full ride, live in a upper middle class neighborhood, raise my kids in a two parent home love my God and help those in

          • cielo62 says:

            Tee- good for you. I’ll send you a merit badge in the mail. Being smart and nice is not the same thing as wisdom. In that department you’ve a way to go. Not to mention humility…

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

        • colin black says:

          No whats happened ?

          Have they died of old age?
          Not being young an healthy such as your self?

        • Olivia says:

          Tee,

          I know what you mean about it sounding like the CTH here. Intolerance/bias/self-righteousness.

          Same attitudes, different site.

        • longtimegeek says:

          “Ever wonder where the old bloggers that use to visit here have gone?”

          Yes, I have been wondering. I had to take a break from the blog, because I couldn’t take what GZ did to TM after he shot him. It turned into a long break, and I still can’t talk about it. I have especially been wondering about Patricia and her latest best guess as to what actually happened.

      • That was an unnecessary cheap shot..

        Without minimizing the importance of B29’s cowardly screw-up, a lot of people screwed up on this case. As I said earlier in the thread, I do not believe it’s fair or reasonable to place all of the blame on her.

        • Malisha says:

          I don’t place “all of the blame on her.” But there’s so MUCH blame to go around it’s hard to be just perfect about how to slice up the pie.
          more later…
          Professor, if I were a millionnaire — heck, even a thousandaire — I’d send you a BIG contribution right now, just wanted to let you know my pocket does not appropriately represent my appreciation.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Tee — I recommended prune juice not because I thought you were mature but because you showed evidence from your commentary of being full of it.

    • boyd says:

      Tee, no way in hell some Juror could make me do what I do not believe.

    • tinytruthseeker says:

      I completely agree and I would suggest that Sybrina would be heartsick to see such hate and vitriol directed towards this young woman…. SHE has shown such grace and dignity and class throughout this terrible time….and I have not heard her say a hateful word towards a single soul…. she EVEN said that while she isn’t READY to forgive the murderer of her baby…. she prays for him…

      • sadlyyes says:

        okay this becoming MELODRAMA…lets get back to the facts, mokay?she screwed up,and has emboldened Foge,MOM WEst,and all the other NUTTERS…that justify KIDSLAUGHTER

    • Ms.X says:

      Tee, I deeply respect what you said. I think we, individually & collectively- are so upset about the murder of Trayvon & gross miscarriage of justice we have witnessed, that people are just lashing out at anything and anybody. This murder has traumatized a whole nation. I liken it to parents blaming each other when they lose a child. I have seen marriages fall apart during those times because they misdirect their individual heart break. Some direct their pain into anger & look for a cause where there might not be one. We have all seen Tracy cry publically from the guilt of not being there to save his son, but we have also seen that Sybrina did not blame him or they would not be able to stand together as a united front.

      Many people are traumatized by the next disappointment and the next and the next. At each turn, justice seems to evade us. Like your daughter, we are afraid that our male relatives might be next. I see the verdict as an instrument that could prompt open season on our sons, even though I already know it has already happened. My 18 yo son, the same age as Trayvon, is a walking target. I’m trying not to be a smother (a mother who smothers), but he doesn’t have as much freedom as I had at his age.

      I’m a lurker, but I apologize to you for the offenses.

  45. crazy1946 says:

    Oh but to have a high speed internet connection this would be so much easier…. During the trial of the Fogdoit Leanne Benjamin (wife of John P. Donnelly) talked about how the Fogdoit had worked with them on a political campaign. At that time I suggested that it had been a Tea Party campaign, but was quickly informed that it could not be because they were Democrats. Well folks after digging thru the Florida Voter registration list I have found out you were wrong, they were not Democrats but were instead Registered as Republicans. It gets better in 2008 (the most likely year that the Fogdoit could have been involved with them) they were affiliated with Joshua Parrish who was the head of the Ron Paul Campaign in Seminole County, who also was involved(as the front man in Florida) with the group distributing the pamphlets on how to subvert the jury system that I posted about earlier. It is slow digging with my connection, but I think we are headed toward where the money for the Fogdoit came from. I suspect that before this digging is done that there will also be a connection to MOM and West as well… This is starting to look like a genuine case of “Money Buys the Verdict that You Pay For”…

    PS: The information that I am using as a starting point in most of this is from the Florida Voters Registration List…. Then spreading out from there…

    I wish that there was a list of contributors to the Fogdoit beg site….
    I suspect there would be lot of surprises to be found there…

    • sparger says:

      the people on this site are amazing. I just have my conspiracy theories but you guys walk the walk.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Well, well, well, how very interesting. Joshua Parrish, a name we should remember. Are we to suspect Fogen is a Ron Paul fan? If true, the Paul family including Rand might not be so thrilled to have that well-known.

      Have nothing to add, other than we should all remember that Miami mobster Al Capone finally got sent off to the pen, not for violence, but for his financial misdeeds including tax evasion, frowned on by the IRS.

      If I were the Donnelly couple or any number of others involved with the Fogen murder cover-up and subsequent trial issues now being investigated by the feds, I would want to be especially careful about paying Uncle Sam his due.

      • crazy1946 says:

        T.O., What shocked me was that he was the front man for the “Fully Informed Jury Association of Florida”, the ones that distributed the instruction pamphlet on how to basically cheat on the Voir Dire to get on a jury, to nullify the jury process….

    • anita says:

      Don’t know how I missed your comment earlier, but this stuff is too much. They sounded like tea baggers because they were. Ron Paul is a nut job, so are the Donnellys. Oh, of course fogen too. Keep digging!!!!

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Will the DOJ look at any of these connections?

      • Ms.X says:

        I don’t think we should get our hopes up. I wish they would but I don’t believe they will.

      • crazy1946 says:

        While I would hope they would, I suspect they will not…
        It does get better the deeper I dig! I have found the start of a connection between the Fogdoit and Joshua Parrish and (best of all) Adam Pollock (Kokopelli’s Gym). MOM mentioned toward the end of the trial in one of his daily press conferences that they had received several large donation allowing for paid expert witnesses. Why would someone donate large sums of money for this mans defense? What payback will they receive or perhaps what do they expect to receive for their investment? Or was it to buy silence about something or someone? There was too much money involved in this case to not raise awareness and questions of why! It does seem strange that when you start digging, it looks like most of the players in this story have a couple of common links, the first being “Lake Mary, Florida” even Fogdoit and his wife (they show different addresses on their voters registration) lived there…. Is it an exclusive racist haven or?

    • Lynn says:

      @crazy1946

      The names in this article need to be looked into. Something will one day tie them all together. Political parties, friends of MOM’s, awards. Give me a break. B37’s husband probably runs in these same circles. One day we’ll find out the truth.

      http://www.clickorlando.com/news/brevard-group-to-honor-george-zimmerman-attorney-mark-omara/-/1637132/21164466/-/1516b3i/-/index.html

    • Kimmi says:

      If you are following the $$$, then might want to check this out…
      The former prosecutor in Fogen’s 2005 arrest of “battery on a LE officer” who was ALSO the attorney for juror B29…
      Who then posts this on his website?
      Somone might want to get a screen shot before it ‘disappears’

      The Polemics of Zimmerman’s Murder Trial
      Prosecutorial Abuse On Steroids
      http://davidchicolaw.com/the-polemics-of-zimmermans-murder-trial/

  46. Mary Davis says:

    I served on a civil trial years ago in California (Riverside County). This Hispanic guy was in a terrible accident. His infant child was in the car when the accident ac cured, but that was a different trial.

    I was the only minority on the jury. They tried to talk above my head. My opinion didn’t seem to matter to them. They knew the guy deserved a settlement, but there only concern was not to make him a millionaire. One of the jurors actually said “We don’t want to make him rich”.

    I put myself in that guy’s shoes. I told them that I could not live with myself if we award him so little of a settlement. I told them that the lawyers and doctors would get more than the person that got injured.

    Needless to say, we settled, but it was not nearly what I thought it should have been. If it wasn’t for me, this guy wouldn’t gotten what he did.

    I know how it feels to be on a jury and be the odd one. If I was juror B-29, I would have held my position and hung the jury. Now she has to live with the decision she made.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Thanks for standing up for the victim in your trial, Mary.

      It’s not always easy — in fact, it rarely is — to go against the grain. Especially in a jury room when novelty has warn off, and everyone wants the whole shebang to be over.

    • sadlyyes says:

      OMG
      I was the only minority on the jury. They tried to talk above my head. My opinion didn’t seem to matter to them. They knew the guy deserved a settlement, but there only concern was not to make him a millionaire. One of the jurors actually said “We don’t want to make him rich”.

      THIS is what America has become….dog eat dog,rat race,hate your neighbors!sick sick sick,good on you with your BIG big heart…blessings

    • Ms.X says:

      Mary, this is what I imagined happened to B29. I’m telling you I had a vision of it being that way, especially since 4 of them got together on a press release after B37’s CNN interview went south. I imagine that those 4 got together without inviting B29 to join them because she is not “one of them.”

      What you depicted is the insidiousness of daily, run of the mill racism. It is dismissal. It is condescention. It is the sentiment that they are the master race & the ones who decide what the non-master races deserve. We are all trained to believe in their superior intellect over our own, and basically that their ice is colder. When we point it out, we are touchy, insecure, reverse racists. We can’t possibly believe our lying eyes, ears, hearts, especially if their feelings are subconscious (profiling). When you bring it up, they shut the conversation down by saying, “You’re hysterical,” or bring up a million justifications, or tell you you need to concentrate on the pathology within you own community & why aren’t you? If you bring it up a 2nd time, you are the angry Black militant polluting the climate and not fitting into the culture. You have to always prove you are “safe” & prove that you are willing to promote and uphold their agenda and supremacy above your own. If you don’t, be prepared to be squashed. It is so soul crushing. So draining. So crazy making.

      I’m not saying this to blame any individuals, but moreso “the system.” (We know the system is made up of individuals.) For those that are intetested, several of us have been willing to share our experiences through our eyes & divulge information we haven’t been able to necessarily discuss. In a way, this is an opportunity to have conversation about race & racism & to understand how others may have different viewpoints than the dominant culture. everyone is an individual & no one really wants to be lumped into a group without one’s permission. Everyone wants to be afforded the chance to say for themselves, “I think like this, I don’t think like that.”

      Racism is an assumption of superiority/inferiority. IMO, to consider the needs & intetests of diverse groups is to be not racist. To be OK with a group seeking self-determination without being unduly threatened is to be supportive of all God’s children. Be sensitive to another group’s rights/needs. Forinstance, when you look at Mount Rushmore do you see it as a technological engineering feat or an imposition of white supremacy on a people’s ancestoral land? Would you feel the same way about an archaeologist exuming your parents and grandparents as you feel about looking at “native” skeletons in a museum? Would you feel the same way about Black Americans reenacting slave insurrections where white people were killed as you would feel about civil war reenactments? How about Holocaust reenactments? Would you think it was weird if I (or your Black friends) sent you a Christmas card with Black angels or Black Santa? Are Black angels weird and white angels “normal?” Can we be honest about how we feel and open our hearts and minds to different possibilities?

      Thanks for indulging me.

      • cielo62 says:

        Ms. X~ You wrote a very thought provoking post. My question is: is morality judged by experiences, race or something else? I look at the lives of people we consider to be heroes. What is the difference? They made decisions based on  larger values than themselves and persevered in spite of their own fears. Maybe I don’t understand B29 because it’s hard to cower me. In fact, staying quiet is much harder for me than speaking up. I’ve learned that one must be careful to choose one’s battles. But when that battle comes to YOU, and places a decision in your hands, what do you do? Just like on Judgement Day, it’s only YOU in the hot seat. I am deeply disappointed in this person. DEEPLY disgusted at the results of her lack of moral courage. If she had faith in GOD or in ANYTHING (like protecting her kids from future madmen), that should have sustained her. But we got an empty vessel that shattered, and now is pleading for forgiveness and understanding. She won’t find them from me.

        ________________________________

    • J4TMinATL says:

      It’s been told to me by attorneys that black plaintiffs in personal injury cases receive astronomical settlements from juries in large counties because jurors are minority and have on average a 5th grade education.

      • concernedczen says:

        I think those attorneys lied to you and they sound like racists.

        I doubt that there are a significant number of jurors with only have a 5th grade education in any part of the country.

  47. She has 8 kids and does menial work in a hospital. Maybe they shouldn’t allow stupid people on juries. Give them an IQ Test or something.

    • lurker says:

      Strikes me as a rather prejudiced conclusion.

    • Yorazigo says:

      Number of children and doing NECESSARY menial labor do not mean a person is stupid! Intelligent and devious people are far more of a threat to a jury.

      • cielo62 says:

        Yorazigo- together, they are dangerous. But this jurors problem wasn’t intelligence but moral fortitude. That doesn’t take a lot of brains; just honesty and guts. I’ve known many people of possibly lower IQ (i cant know) who nonetheless were strong in faith and honesty. She is not one if those.

        FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

        • Olivia says:

          cielo62; you really believe that women with 8 or more children who work at what you consider a menial job are somehow “dangerous”?

          Does the same apply to men? How about to jurors of the past – say – 50 or more years ago?

          • cielo62 says:

            Olivia- don’t know what you mean. I never said she was dangerous because of her family. I meant to say that a manipulative person plus somebody willing to be manipulated is a dangerous combination, as we saw here.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • Olivia says:

            cielo62, yes – I agree. Juror consultants could play that combination to their favor.

        • Ms.X says:

          I really feel you on this one. You are so right. Let us all reflect on this. Any of us could find ourselves in a circumstance where we might be out gunned intellectually, or where someone involved with us is a master liar or manipulator. It takes moral fortitude to not be seduced.

    • Olivia says:

      Cora, Cora, Cora.

      A juror has a low IQ because she has more children than you want a juror to have?

      My mother had 10 children. She has an IQ of 140. Too stupid to be on a jury in your biased opinion.

      A juror has a low IQ because you think the juror’s occupation is a menial one?

      My sister worked on an automobile plant assembly line. She has an IQ of 130. Too stupid to be on a jury in your biased opinion.

      I can figure your approximate IQ just by reading your biased comments.

      If you made the rules, then your IQ would be a reason to eliminate you as a potential juror.

      • jm says:

        I can’t judge B29’s IQ but maybe she lost something in comprehending the legalese of the jury instructions, not due to her IQ but the legal language of the instructions.

        I did not understand the jury instructions in this Florida case but in the Arizona Arias case, the instructions were clarified by the prosecutor. Perhaps the Florida prosecution wanted to keep the instructions muddied for political purposes or perhaps the prosecutor was incompetent if we want to give them the benefit of the doubt.

        All things considered this case has made me think something terrible is going on in Florida and with the likes of Zimmerman and Anthony set free, I no longer trust the jury system nor the ability of juror’s to come to a logical/rationale conclusion. .

        Florida is officially a clusterfuck.

        • cielo62 says:

          Jm-“Florida is officially a clusterfuck”

          100% true!

          FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

        • Olivia says:

          JM, the instructions were too vague for me.

          I wanted to show clear and precise justification for my decision – easy for everyone to grasp (and agree), from right there in the instructions.

          Didn’t find it, so I hope that I would have recalled John Guy’s closing advice to make the decision that I felt was right.

          To the jurors unable to find clear justification for a guilty verdict in the text, it might have been a matter of recalling the opposing advice given by O’Mara and Guy in closing remarks, and then deciding which advice to follow.

        • Ms.X says:

          I agree with you 100%. The jury instructions were 27 pages. I watched those CNN videos that you posted earlier today & a few of the lawyers stated that non-legally trained people USUALLY have trouble interpreting jury instructions. It is more the rule than the exception. FL is being revealed as the state that we don’t want ours to be like. It is practically a racist criminal’s paradise for evading justice.

          To be honest, 27 pgs. would make my eyes glaze over, yet for Trayvon, I would have labored thru each one & translate it into simplified language that we agreed upon as a group. If we couldn’t agree on a definition, I would say we don’t need to apply it to the case. I would also eliminate anything we agreed didn’t really apply to the case. That would hopefully get all of us on the same page & cut the instructions down to as few pages as possible. If we couldn’t agree after I had done my best, the jury would simply be hung. Its as simple as that.

      • cielo62 says:

        Olivia- anybody that has more children than they can afford is stupid, regardless of IQ.

        FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

        • aussie says:

          Who says she can’t afford them? MOST people who have children (any number) have to WORK for a living. Most people without children have to work for a living, too. It also happens people can afford something — children, a car, a house, when they get them — and then their circumstances might change.

          You’re being horridly judgmental these last few days, you better take a break to recover some sanity.

          • cielo62 says:

            Aussie- and what makes you think I was talking about B29? I was making a general comment. “If you can’t feed them, don’t breed them” is my motto. I see the results on my school campus every year.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

  48. colin black says:

    sadlyyes says:

    July 26, 2013 at 11:51 am

    arrest history

    well i did not know that..that would IMO predispose her to wanting to be with the others for acceptance,and forgiveness for her own shortcommings….very convluted mental gyrations going on here

    @

    Come on anyone going into a Jury room with an iferiorty complex an knows that she cannot stand up for his or herself .

    Has no place even being there never mind excuse me for hardship I have eight kids your Honour.

    Excuse me for being a mental midget whom is unable to make my pressance known by streaking through a libray shes so ineffectual.

    There all types of people commenting at this site an others.Some learned an obviously well read an erudite.

    An theres others that may be waitreses for there kids or tipping customers.
    Maybe even some hispaanic with many children.

    An not a friggin one of us would have kow towed to thease pretencoius bithches I woulds give a flying duck what there standing in the community is
    Or who the fluck there married to a doctor a lawer or a flippin Mayor of yakatoo Nebraska.

    An neither would any that read an comment hear an its not because we are TRAVONITES

    Its because we are truthites an we would have still been sat there till Christamas 2018 rather that let that blatant CHILD MURDERING PEICE OF SHIT.

    Grin shake hands with m o m an skellator an walk no way

    We would Inform an persude an if any one of us was there the only one hanging the hJury would have been the attorneys wife an possably another.
    An if I could have tricked her an got a vote for manslaughter guilty out of her then to that I would have aquiessed

    But I think her husband would have informed her it was not guilty or bust so the raceist biatch would’ve hung the jury 5 guilty murder two one not guilty.

    An that would have been a whole nother enchilada.
    The uproar an the bad press decending up on the one hold out .
    Millions spent on trial an yet more as a do over.

    A do over the State should breeze as no matter what people critizise them for not doing this or that.
    They done more than enough to convict.

    The jury aquitted foggage not the prosecution blowing it an certainly not the defence pulling a blinder an winning it.They were abysmall come on .

    M O M couldn’t even I D two of his own witness from a still screen shot or claimed not to recognise them ,

    There inept wich was Baez an Chenny as trunkmoms defence. couple of years ago.Then there M O M an skellator mr softy defence was beyond any thing .

    Even the farcical non defence of E Wounaroos looked professional copared to what those two put on M O M Im breaking thease teeth in for Najinski

    From the out set was a total caricature of bad lawer jokes .Bizzaro oppiste world was every thing that came o0ut of his friggin mouth.

    Im not going to try this case in court of public opinion.Two days later web site gzlegal up an running

    SEND MONEY IF YOU WOULD DO WHAT FOGGAGE DID THAT NIGHT.

    Our jaws dropped at least mine did an that was just the beginning.Never been a case tried more in the court of media lies spin spin lies an more dammed lies an miss reported facts an .
    Sleazy tatics of attacking the VICTIM
    Another thing M O M said he WOULD NEVER DO an did nothing but.

    An he has the cheek to call the prosecution of his client a bizzaro act a strange ocurance.
    That only in an alternate universe could a man be arrested an held accountable for murdering an INNOCENT CHILD.

    He was o maniacal o moron bizzaro oppiste speak person Ive ever seen in my life .
    So lucky me seems I in habit a bizzareo universe because seems not only is M O M an skellator a reality the only gone a got a bizzareo jury an jurours an frigging client talk about the perfect bizzaro storm your talk about the

    EXECUTION OF TRAYVON BENJIM MARTIN

    An the most despicable selfcentred soulless remorseless soulless piece of bizzaro crap that ever exsisted

    An rather than learned a lesson from his near brush with a lifetime in jail for his wannabeeee L E type bruce willis fantasy blow them fuckas away,

    Its being stated he is armed with a police scanner listening in for action??

    How long is going to be until he arrives at one of thease scence say a chase an capture robbery type scenario armed with his trusty new free gift?

    The next Installment

    foggage hears of an on going school shooting situation .
    Rushes to assist takes a wrong turn arrives at wrong pr school bursts in a shoots an kills an entire Glee Club doing a season of Guy an Dolls?

    .

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Mebbe we’ll get lucky and Fogen will run out on his white horse and his new arsenal and get himself blown away by a real thug.

  49. type1juve says:

    Many of us were tricked into believing that they gave a damn. By the time we realized what was happening it was too late. I kept thinking that they would cover missed issues on rebuttal. I was horrified when there was no rebuttal, not even the cop that Fogen attacked. This case could and should have been tried differently by the prosecution.

    • J4TMinATL says:

      In a rebuttal, the State can call rebuttal witnesses or evidence to refute evidence presented by MOM. The State can only bring up evidence that was NOT brought up initially and witnesses who can refute/contradict witnesses that the defense called (Dennis Root, Olivia Bertalan, RZ Sr., GZ’s mother, GZ’s uncle, LeAnne Benjamin and husband John Donnelly, Geri Russo, Dr. Vincent Di Maio, Eloise Dilligard, Osterman, Adam Pollack, Traci Martin). Defense recalled Chris Serino and Dora Singleton.

      In its rebuttal the State told JN they wanted to call Adam Pollack, Arthur Fleichman and David Lee. After defense objected to State’s questioning on Adam regarding him selling the GZ gym training package it fell apart. JN said nope and ATF agent Fleichman wasn’t brought in for same reason. FLDE agent Lee wasn’t “available.”

  50. commenting says:

    yes the prosecution threw the case…..isn’t it obvious??????? how a can a lawyer be that lousy…..they were lousy on purpose..

  51. jm says:

    To Professor Leatherman: What do you think of Mark Garagos saying that the prosecution threw the Zimmerman case on CNN last night? Did they do this on purpose or was it incompetence?

    • Ms.X says:

      He made a bold and courageous statement. What show did he say it on? I would like to see the video if you know. Now he can rename himself Captain Obvious.

      They threw the case intentionally.

    • In addition to what I have previously said, seemed to me that Bernie quit trying when he rested the State’s case without cleaning up a few messes created by defense cross examination and did not present a summary witness to tie everything together.

      I’ve also never seen a murder case presented in such a short period of time.

      There is lots of evidence that supports what Garagos said.

      • I admit that I should have recognized what was happening sooner than I did.

        I was slow to see it because I did not believe he would quit on such an important case or deliberately lose it.

        • Malisha says:

          Professor, the favor that BDLR did was not a favor for the little slimeball whom EVERYBODY in FDLE disrespects (Fogen), it was someone big and powerful. Someone whose head might have ultimately rolled or someone whose ascent to “higher powerhood” might have suffered a fuel shortage in their own political kape kanaveral klimb (KKK), not Fogen. I think he did deliberately lose it but not for Fogen and not, ultimately, even for JUST the SPD. Tubby little redneck cops in Sanford were not the beneficiaries of an epic fail like this. They were only by-product kings. He was doing obeisance to someone who really has the ability to put the rock on his finger. He’s in bed with someone, that is, with a bigger dick than Fogen.

          • cielo62 says:

            Malisha- Rick.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • Malisha says:

            yeah, ceilo, bigger-dick-rick.

            bigger dick rick.
            bigger dick rick.
            see how he runs?
            see how he runs?
            He ran all over the sunshine state
            he made a performance of lying and hate
            and then shrugged his shoulders and said “it was fate”
            ’cause he’s bigger dick rick.

        • jm says:

          Professor: Do you think BDLR had political pressure to lose the case?

          The whole thing is disgusting from Angela Corey down to juror B37.

          I did not have faith in BDLR from the beginning but I thought it may have been because he was incompetent. He was always a bit annoying in his presentation as compared to John Guy and Mantei.

    • J4TMinATL says:

      Mark Geragos can kiss it. He’s the CNN analyst pictured with O’Mara and West dining and celebrating at Nello.

  52. commenting says:

    if i were to type out what my closing statement would have been instead of that nonsense that bernie did……it would be too long. ….i would have made sure to inform the jurors that most of gz words were lies…he fabricated everything form the sucker punch at the T …to the way he shot Trayvon….but i guess bernie did not want gz convicted….

  53. crazy1946 says:

    Professor, under Florida law after deliberations have begun can an individual juror ask a question of the Judge or do all questions have to be routed thru the jury foreman?

    • Through the foreperson. AFAIK, that is true everywhere in the US.

      • crazy1946 says:

        Thank you for the response, I wonder if that is part of why this young lady ended up giving into the pressure from the other jurors? I really wish we had some names for the members of the jury, I’d be willing to bet there is some connection to someone on the defense team or perhaps the community where Trayvon was murdered…. Perhaps in time we will know…

        • J4TMinATL says:

          Probably B-51 or E-6. On the day Dennis Root and Olivia Bertalan took stand, JN told E-6 to alert her if she needed to leave courtroom.

          E-6 was a premp juror by State that failed.

  54. jm says:

    From what I can see she caved under pressure from the other jurors. It would be her job to clarify the instruction or ask specific question of the judge. Major fail on the part of the jurors.

    BTW, saw Mark Garagos who said the prosecution was on purpose vague on jury instructions. In other words, they threw the case on purpose.

    http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/category/mark-geragos/

    • aussie says:

      All communication from the jury has to go through the foreperson. “Ask specific question of the judge” goes through the foreperson.

      They asked something about manslaughter, were told to be more specific, and never got to ask again. WHY? who didn’t ask? is the reply from the judge passed around? or just read out by the foreperson??????

      THAT is the kind of detail the interviewers should be asking the jurors, as they one by one come out of the woodwork.

      • jm says:

        Wonder who the foreperson was and if she did not encourage questions and just answered them according to her interpretation. Still want to know specifics of why the jurors did not ask specific manslaughter question.

        This case was a farce.

    • Ms.X says:

      Thats what I was alluding to throughout the trial. Many, many tv commentator lawyers asked, on a daily basis, what happened? Why did the prosecution do this or fail to do that? They used statements like “they made rookie mistakes, they failed to tie their presentation to the evidence, they failed to offer an alternative narrative from that of the defense,” etc., etc. Then, everyday, we watched the prosecution surf the internet during defense questioning & fail to object to obvious things that I was objecting to with knowledge I gained watching a few seasons of Law & Order. Finally, they let the defense commandeer the jury instructions. It was disgusting to witness.

      • jm says:

        At the end, particularly after the verdict, I could not stand BDLR or Angela Corey. I am sure the fix was in. Corey talked too much trying to justify “incompetency” of the prosecutor.

      • J4TMinATL says:

        Surf the Internet? No I saw every attorney working on his computer. Nonsense.

    • J4TMinATL says:

      Mark Geragos can kiss it. He’s the CNN analyst pictured with O’Mara and West dining and celebrating at Nello.

  55. commenting says:

    what’s done is done…. but if the prosecution had done a better… job…if the prosecution made a little effort….she would not have reached a not guilty verdict…everyone does not have COMMON SENSE.. every one does not have self confidence…..

    she believed that the white women with lawyer husbands were smarter than her……the prosecution was supposed to break down the physical altercation to show that gz was not in fear for his life when he shot Trayvon…..they should have demonstrated through animation or using the dummy that Trrayvon was probably retreating when he got shot….they should not have left any doubts…

  56. degraveegmailcom says:

    Let’s not fall into this very conveniant trap of blaming juror B29
    In her favor I have repect for the fact that she did not hide her face.
    Remember the guy who adamant about “thou shall not kill”
    He even said;”if somebody attacks me and I kill him I’m guilty”
    Solid,IMO.
    They didn’t let him on the jury did they?

    • type1juve says:

      There’s plenty of blame to go around, starting with the SPD’s botched handling of the initial investigation. However, this woman is not blameless. Even with everything that was effed up about the case the jury could have sent a powerful message to the world. WE WILL NOT ALLOW INNOCENT CHILDREN TO BE GUNNED DOWN AT THE PLEASURE OF SOCIOPATHIC GUN NUTS! Apparently she and the other two were not strong enough to stand up to the racists on that jury. And now Fogen is free to kill again if he decides to.

    • commenting says:

      did you reply to my comment???? do you see me blaming juror b27???? even if she stood her ground it would have ended in a hung jury and that in no way guaranteed that gz would be convicted the next time ahiround…..there are enough racist to lie their t way unto the jury the second time around if it had happened that way……

  57. commenting says:

    God i feel sorry for sabrina..she says she can’t sleep she cant eat…poor woman

  58. commenting says:

    this is the type of woman they wanted…the type ow minority that they wanted as a juror…someone that could be easily swayed/influenced and manipulated……the white racist i’m sure, in their subtle way, made her feel like a fool, they tactically and cunningly made her doubt herself

  59. crazy1946 says:

    Here is a link to an instruction booklet on how to survive Voir Dire to ensure you get on the jury that you want to subvert! Read this then read the answers a few members of the jury selected in the Fogdoit case… I won’t mention a lawyers wife, for example, that would be an accusation….

    http://fija.org/docs/BR_YYYY_surviving_voir_dire.pdf

    • Trained Observer says:

      Thanks for posting. My favorite passage is the one that sez: “Vote your conscience. Hang with pride … ”

      It goes on to say hung juries send strong messages to prosecutors and legislators. It would have been great to send a SYG message to Tallahassee.

      • crazy1946 says:

        I’m searching for a membership list for this group, the person in charge in Florida was Joshua Parrish,( of guess where?) Seminole County…. Try reading the answers that jury member B37 gave in her Voir Dire and laugh when you see how close her answers follow the script in the pamphlet.

        • anita says:

          OMG, unbelievable!

          • jm says:

            So if there is a problem with a juror and I believe the problem lies with B37, is there a mistrial?

            What happens to Zimmerman? Still free to profile and stalk another kid, black or otherwise, to feed his ego and prove a point?

    • LBTG says:

      I’m interested in: “However, you may not lie during voir
      dire. Lying may constitute perjury or
      obstruction of justice – felony offenses.” Did any of the fogen jury lie during voir dire?

      • crazy1946 says:

        LBTG, If they follow the instructions in the pamphlet they would not have to. Following those instructions, and if I were a resident of Seminole County, I could have gotten onto the jury! My verdict would have included a rope and an oak tree……

  60. Good afternoon, everyone.

    B29’s interview on GMA was surreal. IMO she said things that only a person who did not read the jury instructions for themselves would have said. My head tilted to the side in total disbelief when she said that they could only find manslaughter if they found that Fogen intended to kill when he first left his house.

    Wait..what? Where did that interpretation come from?

    I know jury trial outcomes can be a crap shoot, but I think it’s reasonable that a juror should, at a minimum, read each word of the jury instructions at least once before making any decision. After listening to Maddy’s interview, and her reliance on ‘the law’ not proving Fogen’s guilt (although she admits that the evidence did show him guilty), I’m not convinced she read the instructions at all.

    My heart is again heavy for Sybrina, Tracy, Javaris and family. Each misstep that we’ve seen from the failure to arrest Fogen until B29’s speaking out yesterday show just how much we need to continue to press on for justice.

    • bettykath says:

      Is it possible that one juror held the written instructions and took upon herself to read or paraphrase or make up or whatever for b29? It sounds to me that 3 for ng were united. The other 3 were not and may have been picked off one by one until b29 saw herself as one against 5.

      • type1juve says:

        You may be right. It just sounds like she didn’t read the instructions herself to me.

      • Trained Observer says:

        I think it’s possible. For that matter, has it been determined whether B29 can read?

        This inquiry poses a strong argument for every juror to have a personal copy of instructions, rather than to depend on what info is doled out by the foreperson.

        • Agreed that it would be better if each juror had his/her own copy and not rely on the foreperson’s reading/interpretation. Here, I think that only one packet of instructions and one verdict form went into the deliberation room.

        • pat deadder says:

          OMG I’m sick and tired of hearing about jury instructions.How much time did they spend on the evidence.According to both jurors nobody gets convicted.When defense was looking for jurors they wanted a strong one in favor of aquital then weak ones.They got it.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @pat deadder

            post deliberation polling indicates that jury instructions are what influence jurors most in their deliberations. making these instructions simple to use should paramount, along with prosecutors spending time to explain how the crime the are prosecuting correlates to the instructions.

      • elle says:

        My husband was the foreman on a jury and he was required to read all instructions to the other jurors. They were not allowed to have their own copy of anything, he had to read it all.

    • type1juve says:

      I wonder if she can read or how well she can read. I get the impression that this woman was clearly relying on other jurors to “help” her in reaching a decision or understanding jury instructions. Even accepting all of Fogen’s lies and multiple stories I just don’t see how they couldn’t at least see that he committed manslaughter.

  61. Trained Observer says:

    Vacation and comp time off, one would presume.

  62. Yorazigo says:

    OT – But…..

    Where is Renee Stuzman? Haven’t heard a word from her for a while

    • type1juve says:

      I guess she’s laying low since her assignment from the Fogen camp is complete. I look for her to rear her ugly head again once the Jordan Davis trial starts.

  63. Trained Observer says:

    B29: “I was the juror that was going to give them the hung jury. I fought to the end,” she said.

    Wrong, you dope. If you had fought to the end, the jury would have been hung.

    • Thrace says:

      It was a strange comment. I wondered if she meant she was the juror that wanted to leave that B37 said would have hung the jury but they convinced her to stay.

      • aussie says:

        I wonder what she was told about the dire consequences of hanging the jury. Where does she even get the expression from?

        • jm says:

          B37 whose husband is an attorney and who may have told her husband that the jury was deliberating 5-1 and he told MOM who may have told someone who told Frank Taaffe who let Nancy Grace know.

          Shady juror.

        • Thrace says:

          I think she was commenting on what B37 said in her interview to Anderson Cooper. B37 said their was almost a hung jury because one of the jurors wanted to leave. B37 and the other jurors convinced the person to stay. So I’m wondering if that’s what B29 was talking about in reference to “hung jury”

          Quote from B37 on CNN-
          At times, I thought we might have a hung jury because one of them said they were going to leave, and we convinced them that you can’t leave. You can’t do this. You have been in this too long to walk out now.

          • jm says:

            B37: “At times, I thought we might have a hung jury because one of them said they were going to leave, and we convinced them that you can’t leave. You can’t do this. You have been in this too long to walk out now.”

            Sounds like B37 wanted “George” to be found not guilty real bad. She did not want to risk this going to trial again where she could not be on the jury and persuade others why Zimmerman was not guilty. B37 sounds shady to me.

          • aussie says:

            I am getting the impression B29 did NOT KNOW she could hang the jury, only found out afterwards from listening to B37.

            The whole “wanted to go…persuaded her to stay…” sounds like someone had put on a secret DEADLINE, somehow persuaded everyone there had to be a verdict TONIGHT.

            “Go home” could have been just back to the hotel, too.

    • type1juve says:

      She knows she effed up and now she’s trying to redeem herself with meaningless platitudes. This woman, like Fogen, needs to go somewhere and stfu.

      • Malisha says:

        I hope she “speaks out” more, though. She blah-blah-blahs meaningless phrases and bullshit BUT she is an important contemporaneous document showing what happened to this country when Fogen was rewarded for murder.

        • Trained Observer says:

          True … the longer she keeps blathering the better chances are that something of import (read: actionable) going on in the jury room or during sequestration might pop out of her mouth along with the talking point drivel fed to her by PR/media/legal folks trying to clean up her mess.

        • type1juve says:

          Okay she can stfu after she spills the beans on what happened in that jury room 🙂

          • Malisha says:

            spills the beans, the poison, the nasty kettle of stew, the contents of the witches’ cauldron, the black bile, the wretched refuse of our lying rooms. Spill these, the unspeakable, to us.

    • Malisha says:

      B29: “I was the juror that was going to give them the hung jury. I fought to the end,” she said.
      —————————————————
      WOW, flashback.

      Now I remember my childhood. Wondering whether, had I been in the sewers under the ghetto (and whether, if and when I ended UP in the sewers under the ghetto) — although I had no mental “visual” or other perceptual picture of what “the sewers under the ghetto” actually represented — with 14 others, I would have done the right thing at the right moment, and even been able to discern when that right moment WAS, whether I would have remembered the Morse Code at just the time when the fateful message had to be sent or received, whether I would have realized what action had to be taken and been equal to the task and whether my response time would have been good enough for the action, whether I would have been wakeful enough and smart enough and wiley enough and strong enough to tip a scale the right way and not the wrong way, whether I would have stayed focused when a noise from “upstairs” sounded like this or that or some unidentified panic would have overtaken me, whether, in the final analysis, I would have been good enough or not good enough, and some 60+ years later I hear that this starstruck lady from the midwest calls herself fighting to the end and resolves her conflict with unembarrassed phraseology after she was “put to the test” in an air-conditioned hotel with take-out meals and pedicures and when she is asked to render one of two syllables, either “NO” or “YES” and she must choose while there is neither a gun aimed at her heart nor a good chance that her fingernails will be ripped out with pliers and she …

      Remember I met a man in a bar in New York and for some reason I told him I spent my childhood in the sewers under the Warsaw Ghetto, emitting a two-syllable laugh and adding, “I don’t know why I did that!” and hearing him come right back with: “YOU HAVE TO!” and then finding out he was a spook in Vietnam, and thinking, “wow, flashback…”

      “Dear GOD! These assholes, they alllllll-ways get away …”

      Oh B-29. B-29. You don’t even realize the ignominy of it, do you?

      • cielo62 says:

        Malisha- alas,she and a bunch of others who excuse her just don’t get it. If everybody was “cut some slack” On the scale of allowing a murderer to walk, today women would still not have the vote and indeed, we would still have slavery. It takes guts to do what is right. And she couldn’t last past 16 hours in a cushy hotel. SMDH.

        FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Powerful.

      • aussie says:

        There are many types and degrees of fear and coercion. Many types long before you get to fingernails and pliers. And you can’t compare the real coercions against a childhood fantasy about ghetto sewers replete with Morse code messages.

        Your wondering what you would have done has no bearing on what someone else had to do under their circumstances. You are doing the whole world an injustice if you denigrate and discount everything that’s not as bad as a Warsaw Ghetto.

        The fact that other people have had to face worse in NO WAY diminishes a person’s fear or pain of what they themselves are experiencing. Ever. If you dispute that, you may as well say well, Trayvon didn’t suffer much, he was only shot after all, not gassed. He was only one, not a million.

        • Malisha says:

          You know, Aussie, your urge to correct everybody else’s mental paths is becoming quite annoying to me personally and I’m here to tell you that I resent your clever false analogies again. A breakdown of your little lecture to me NOT to judge B-29 by holding her up to the standard of a person facing torture and death is casuistry and that’s really all I judge IT to be. See, I’m not saying she wasn’t coerced and I’m not saying she had to fit some standard set by my emotional meditations on fitness to be “good” in a possibly “bad” situation. But here is what I AM saying:

          She was thrown, through no fault of her own, into a situation where some discomfort, some personal pain (she has the nerve to claim pain equal to the mother of a slain child whose murderer slandered him in his grave!) and some ill-effects fell upon her. OTHERS WERE WITH HER in this situation where OTHERS had pain and discomfort and coercion and so forth. She does NOT get to “get off” and explain that gee whiz golly bing bang she couldintadone otherwise or better because somebody told her this or made her to that or blah blah blah. SHE CHOSE to go on TV and offer these subtle apologetics and she KNEW that a murderer got off.

          Your judging ME doesn’t decrease the veracity or the validity of my judging HER. See, I just “imagined” my conflicts about how well I would perform in severe circumstances.

          Then I lived 60+ years more. Did I live through coercion and extreme circumstances?

          Guess what, Aussie, yes. Was I in a real sewer performing heroics including remembering a code? No. Did I, however, hide a victim from an armed abuser and physically front him off? Yes. (Not in a sewer.) Did I ever face down a group (23 board members of a nonprofit) and insist that we would take a vote even if president, vice-president and treasurer resigned and did I threaten that before I’d adjourn, I would call the newspaper and report a public agency for fraud on the United Way, inviting them into the meeting and opening the books to them? Yes. Did we then deliberate for nine more hours until we voted at 4:00 a.m. while my seven-year-old slept on a sleeping bag under the big table in the conference room of a social service agency? YES. Did I interrupt a Greyhound bus schedule because a woman was beating a four-year-old in the face in the terminal and I called the cops on her? Yes.

          So if I earn my badge for trying to go a few inches toward a more responsible way of life for co-humaning but I cannot actually say I was cooped up with five racist white women in a jury trial in Florida, do I get to critique the performance of B-29 when she held the unsafe future lives of unknown unarmed pBa-lack kids in her shaking hands and she DROPPED THEM with a thud of “NOT GUILTY” when she could have held out against coercion (not that it was fun but what is?)? DO I?

          I say I do. I say my possibly dramatic literary description of what my personal journey toward adult accountability felt like years back was just that: my introduction to my own grant to myself of my own right to critique the very public, very important performance of some unknown woman in Florida who

          COULD HAVE GIVEN US ALL

          a piece of accountability that would have improved our lives, protected our souls, and enhanced the reputation of our “home of the free and the brave”; it COULD HAVE given Sybrina Fulton some comfort and relief.

          But it didn’t.

          What we got instead was apologetics because B-29 doesn’t want us to think ill of her for caving in to coercion and NOT being the person who said: I cannot settle for this.

          The person who said: I cannot accept this level of injustice.

          I DO get to critique her performance and I’ll go right back to what I said about others: You said, “‘J’accuse,’ Eh?” and I answer now: “OUI J’accuse. EH!”

          • aussie says:

            The best she could have gotten was a chance for the State to decide not to do a retrial because it would be too hard to win.

            Perhaps that would have been a good thing, force them to admit openly they don’t want to try him. Wouldn’t have done much for the reputation of land of the free and brave, though.

            I am trying to get everyone to see that you’re all spewing vitriol every bit as bad as the “other side” has been. And how you can’t see it yourselves, because you believe you are on the side of right. I’m not seeing anyone following the concept of the same rules for everybody.

            You all want “justice” (as in the same law and same application of law for everybody). But you’re happy to launch personal attacks on individuals who are very small cogs in the wheel, while decrying any such attacks from the “other side”. If you are justified, so are they, because you’re saying the ends justify the means; doesn’t matter you disapprove of their “ends”. “THEY” are only not allowed to be nasty because “they are evil racists”??? but “you” are allowed because you only want “justice”??? so you have different rules for different people???

            Well, bye-bye. All this negative outrage is draining away resources. There’s work to be done and nobody here seems up to it atm, so I’m out of here.

          • cielo62 says:

            aussie~ ciao.

            ________________________________

          • cielo62 says:

            MALISHA~  STANDING OVATION!!!!!!!!! Merci beaucoup, mon amie!

            ________________________________

        • Malisha says:

          I am trying to get everyone to see that you’re all spewing vitriol every bit as bad as the “other side” has been. And how you can’t see it yourselves, because you believe you are on the side of right. I’m not seeing anyone following the concept of the same rules for everybody.

          Wow, this is just wrong, Aussie. If we are to satisfy you that we’re all gonna do right because we believe there are the same rules for everybody, then one of us can go down there and kill Fogen. Period. And then walk. OK? That’s “the same rules for everybody.” But you don’t come into a situation like this in the middle, or near the end, and say, “well if Fogen got scared for his life because Trayvon really had thuggy posture so it’s OK that Fogen killed Trayvon because there are the same rules for everybody,” and call that justice.

          The same rules for everybody means calling Fogen a murderer, and calling Outhousers racists, and calling BDLR a corrupt politician on his way up in Florida politics, and calling B-29 an irresponsible and cowardly juror DOES NOT EQUAL calling Trayvon Martin a thug who deserved to die or calling Sybrina a welfare queen who schemed to get money for her son’s bad behavior or calling Crump a schemer or calling Rachel a liar.

          How reprehensible!

          The same rules for everybody means that we are not to simply make up false and bigoted lies about people and bully them into giving up their rights because they’re afraid we’ll punish them for OUR hatred of them. That is not the same as calling a Nazi a thug or calling Corey a fake or calling Fogen a murderer.

          • Malamiyya says:

            I’m sorry to see two people I’ve respected as much as Malisha and aussie falling out with each other. Calm down, Malisha. Don’t leave, aussie.

            Malisha, I love your perceptiveness, your social consciousness, your readiness to share your unique background and experience and your willingness to call a spade a spade.

            Aussie, you are right that there has been a continuing element of self-righteous fantasizing and namecalling on this blog that at its worst is indistinguishable from the malicious imaginings you see over at the treehouse. And I understand why you find this a stumbling block and an impediment to the proper business of this blog.

            It’s hard times in the lucky country, hard, hard times. Hang on, Sloopy, hang on.

          • aussie says:

            Malisha….

            “..make up false and bigoted lies about people and bully them into giving up their rights because they’re afraid we’ll punish them for..”

            and there is every chance this happened with B29 and all she’s getting for it here is more abuse. Some of the names she’s been called and some of the evil wished on her are way over the top, never mind accusations about her mothering skills. Not really conducive to her opening up and telling the whole story either, is it?

            You know something? that’s why people LIE and make excuses. Because they get jumped on when they START to tell the truth. So, you want truth? or you want to feel good for abusing someone who we know is likely a victim herself?

            “Same rules for everybody” does NOT mean you have to go and copy the bad guys. So don’t put yourself out going to shoot Fogen. Same rules means don’t feel entitled to behaviour that you criticise/hate the other side for, in this specific case the hate and vitriol.

            If you ever hope to make a dent in corruption you need facts, not emotion.

            Malamiyya, thanks. I find it an impediment to sanity. My ears hurt reading here lately. If you can put up with, good luck to you. I’m out. I’m going back among normal people who talk, not scream. Who talk facts, not crazy. I’m the one living in the Lucky Country. I hope some rubs off on y’all.

          • cielo62 says:

            aussie~ and you don’t even SEE the same assumption-making BS in your OWN vitriol that you hurl. What makes you think B29 was a victim at all? Just her word. And maybe she IS lying. But who cares? At the end of the day, she released a killer. And she won ‘t even apologize for doing so. Yes, get on back to the outback. I am getting fed up with your condescension. It’s a simple case of a juror who made a horrible decision, won’t apologize for making it and is asking people to see her as the victim while meanwhile a killer is released to kill again. She won’t get forgiveness from me, you can only be a victim if you allow yourself to be, and her conscience can eat her up alive because that is what she deserves.

            ________________________________

          • jm says:

            What do you think B29’s deal is. What is in this public appearance for her? I can’t figure her out but seems like she is looking sympathy but more importantly publicity for a book deal.

            Something is fishy about this whole thing.

          • cielo62 says:

            jm~ maybe some publicity, but she would need to find a ghost writer willing to work on commission. I don’t think books of this kind are going to be popular. I still feel that she is looking for a way to get absolution for her guilt. If enough people “forgive” her, then she can maybe delude herself into forgiving herself. Her conscience is hurting her. But this is NOT the way to come back from a moral failing.

            ________________________________

          • jm says:

            “I still feel that she is looking for a way to get absolution for her guilt. If enough people “forgive” her, then she can maybe delude herself into forgiving herself. Her conscience is hurting her.”

            After this interview and feedback, B29 has to be feeling guiltier and dumber than before, especially after she realizes she could have found GZ guilty and her (or other juror’s interpretation) of the law was dead wrong. And hanging the jury is better than a unanimous not guilty enabling GZ to arm himself with a Florida license to kill.

          • Malisha says:

            Malamiyya, thanks for your kind words and I understand your effort, but really, I’m not ready for the idea that “oh I’m just being emotional and I need some help from aussie to figure out how not to cause trouble in the world” and I’m not ready for the idea that my response to people who have acted like B-29 is the problem, because if they didn’t fear meanness and nastiness from people like me, they would be much better in the world so my being ready to pounce on them and be a bad girl on them has caused them to have to lie!

            Just how many outrages am I supposed to plead guilty to because I would be mean to the persons perpetrating them so gee, they have an excuse and it’s on me? 1,445,000,315 or just this one here, where a woman with eight kids adopts the position that she just couldn’t convict the killer of someone else’s child because it was “the law” but then she comments that she was just as hurt and sad as the bereaved and insulted
            mother?

            aussie thinks it’s MY FAULT he wants to go away from this blog where people are so mean and he wants to go where people are normal and they don’t be so mean like us here who have been indulging in name-calling?

            THAT sound right to you?

            I was mean to B-29 so aussie has to leave — so now THAT terrible event in society is on me too because I was too emotional? aussie, if you want to go to some verbal gated community where riff raff like me don’t play, that’s on you and that’s not on me. If you ever find yourself unable to tell the truth ’cause you’re scared of the likes of me, feel free to lie.

            BUT think about the idea that YOU posit that B-29 is getting “more abuse” here because she was previously victimized by false and bigoted lies.

            and there is every chance this happened with B29 and all she’s getting for it here is more abuse. Some of the names she’s been called and some of the evil wished on her are way over the top, never mind accusations about her mothering skills. Not really conducive to her opening up and telling the whole story either, is it?

            Now MY comments on a blog are supposed to be designed not only to please YOU and pass by YOUR censor, but they’re also supposed to be designed to make sure B-29’s tender feelings are not disturbed because if that happens she won’t “open up” and “tell the whole story”?

            So let me understand: if only the cops hadn’t criticized Fogen or made him feel uncomfortable, doubtless he would have opened up and told the whole story, right?

            If only we had been nicer to and about Chris Serino, HE would have told the whole story, right?

            In fact NOBODy would have lied but for the fact that we were “abnormal” over here, criticizing liars and making folks uncomfortable huh?

            You know something? that’s why people LIE and make excuses. Because they get jumped on when they START to tell the truth. So, you want truth? or you want to feel good for abusing someone who we know is likely a victim herself?

            Interesting that you don’t worry that you’re “jumping on” me but you’re worried I’m “jumping on” B-29 and you were down on me for “jumping on” Serino after he waltzed a child-murderer out of the defendant’s chair. It’s on me, right? Because I “want to feel good for abusing someone who we know is likely a victim herself”? Wow that’s deep. I must really want to feel good a LOT for me to feel good about abusing all these victims. Let’s see, look at my long list of victims I have been feeling good about abusing:

            B-29
            B-37
            Serino
            Singleton
            Tim Smith
            Lee and Wolfinger, the evil twins
            Jeremy, who saw it
            Bertalan
            Frances Robles who lied about the set-up story
            etc.

            We are to say it’s OK that Fogen got away with profiling, chasing down and murdering Trayvon Martin because these folks were victimized and then someone like Malisha from the Leatherman blog felt good about abusing them some more?

            Hey, I don’t mind if you believe B-29 is just a nice lady who meant well and got bullied into freeing a murderer because people are mean. I triangulated a few markers on the crime scene (because letting Fogen off was a crime) and found her guilty of a lesser included offense than soul-slaughter. Here’s my forensic path:

            “A murderer got off”
            “I fought until the end”
            “I felt just as bad as Trayvon’s mother”
            “I didn’t want to acquit but I had to by law”
            “Since nobody proved intent to kill he was not guilty”

            So, no, this is not about me preventing Maddy from telling the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth about what went on in the jury room by my delight in inflicting pain upon a poor victim who has only learned to lie because of such wickedness and I now impose upon her. It is not.

            She has adopted a heroism to which she is not entitled: “I fought until the end.”

            She has adopted a sacred sorrow that she actually exacerbated: “I felt as bad as Sybrina.”

            She failed and I said she failed. Do I intend to bear the burden for her failure? My intent is not at issue; I have no choice. SHE imposed this on ME. I did not impose it on HER. I have an unacceptable sorrow and rage in my life today (and it has been here for 14 days now) because of what MADDY did to ME in denying ME justice when someone murdered one of “all my sons.”

            Same rules means don’t feel entitled to behaviour that you criticise/hate the other side for, in this specific case the hate and vitriol.

            Oh, great teacher, oh master, NOW you are helping me to see the light. “Same Rules” — you tell me — means that I should not feel entitled to “behaviour” for which I criticize and hate the “other side.” In this case, you have figured out that I “hate the other side” for “hate and vitriol” so I am not to feel entitled to “hate and vitriol.”

            No.

            Here’s what I “hate the other side” for:

            1. For pretending that another person’s inherent wrongness gives a less wrong person (or in fact an always-right person) the right to curse, chase and kill.

            2. For pretending that “you’re still the good guy here” even if you have cursed, chased and killed someone because you’re right and he’s bad.

            3. For pretending that a conglomeration of stupid clumsy lies is acceptable to redefine and explain away the reason someone has committed the society’s most taboo crime.

            4. For attacking a teen-ager for having been victimized by an armed stalker, and then attacking that teen-ager’s family for objecting to the idea that nobody should be punished for it.

            5. For attacking a teen-ager for having been the last person in the world to speak with the deceased teen-ager who was stalked, murdered and slandered.

            6. For not standing up for our whole country’s need to feel that its 16 months of enormous effort to impose SOME form of order on this kind of social chaos, and this kind of dishonesty and immorality, and its need to see some justice done after helplessly watching as outrage was piled on outrage in a seemingly endless and overwhelming tidal wave of lies would stop, would BE STOPPED, by at least one woman out of six sayiing, “I. cannot. accept. this.”

            If you ever hope to make a dent in corruption you need facts, not emotion.

            —————————–
            You think I don’t have facts, that I have only emotion, so that’s why I will not be able to make a dent in corruption? I disagree. I have the following facts from B-29’s mouth:

            She WAS in fact convinced by the prosecution’s presentation.

            She was told, in that jury room, by someone, that acquittal was the only possible decision because there was no proof by the prosecution of “INTENT TO KILL.”

            We KNOW that she was told by the JUDGE HERSELF that neither charge (murder-2 nor manslaughter) required INTENT TO KILL.

            She was coerced.

            Therefore she could not vote her conscience.
            ————————————————

            I don’t mind the same rules for everybody. I don’t think I need any more lessons in it. I do not accept the idea that I have only been here to “feel good for abusing” victims or to emote.

          • cielo62 says:

            Malisha~ Aussie has his/her own delusions of adequacy. Let’s drop it. The idea that ethical behavior is subjective is highly abhorrent to me. I hold B29 to the same standard as I do the CTH and they are BOTH lacking in a morally decent, human goodness foundation. And I call them on it.

            ________________________________

    • elle says:

      I think it is extremely important to find out what she means by “the end”.

      • Malisha says:

        I agree with you, Elle. I think SHE was told that they had to comply with SOMEONE telling the judge that they would decide by Saturday night. She was told some kind of fairy-tale about how SHE had to change her vote to comply with a time schedule and she (a) held out to what she thought (was told) was “the end” and then (b) she changed it because she was told she HAD TO.

        I still cannot respect her decision because I think she should have said “no” when she was asked in open court if that was her decision; she should have said, “no, but I was told I have to do that because the law was read to me.”

        I do believe that she was probably told that JN’s response about the question of manslaughter meant that SHE was not allowed to follow that theory any longer. I think she should come clean to a real thorough investigation of what went on. She should tell ALL. NOT on TV. To the feds.

        • elle says:

          Malisha, I could not agree more. My mind races with the possibilities of what really went on in there. And, I wonder if she has figured out herself what really happened.

  64. ay2z says:

    (off topic– breaking news about the Ariel Castro case, plea deal reached, for 977 counts, he gets 1000 years sentencing. That, if my arithmetic is right, he gets 1 year and about 36 days, for each count.

    Too bad he won’t live long enough to see his sentence through.

  65. aussie says:

    They should get the whole jury together and ask them about all the evidence, step by step. What convinced them, what did not. Let us see the interactions between them.

    Or just go dig into B37 and her family connections that should have had her kicked off in the first place.

    In any case they should automatically remove anyone with a lawyer in the family, as the danger is high they will claim to be the legal experts in the jury room because of it.

    Are they investigating the visitors during “sequestration”? who? how many? how long for? how unsupervised?

  66. I’m willing to bet that there was quite a bit of bullying going on in that jury room and that B37 was behind it all.

    • ay2z says:

      Another reason the judge should have made it clear that each juror is a stand alone in their decision, that bullying, intimidation, or undue influence vs evidence based, should not happen and to report it.

      This juror, lawye’rs wife, was poison.

      • aussie says:

        Problem there : all communications have to be through the foreperson. What is the foreperson is doing the bullying? are they going to pass up a report against themselves?

    • anita says:

      ~Linda A I completely agree with you. I want to hear from the two other guilty voters [in the 1st vote] just what the hell really happened. B29 is not very smart & she’s very weak. The worst thing she said is “feeling as bad as Trayvons’ mother” She should apologize & take that back. To me this is an example of her inability to express what she really means, because I can’t believe anyone would ever say such a thing. I don’t blame her for this verdict near as much as I blame B—-37 & JN & the prosecution. I only wish all 3 guilty voters would have stuck to their guns & hung the jury. Lord only knows what went on in that jury room, but it’s a safe bet B—-37 was a huge part of it. She is a really bad person.

      • type1juve says:

        Indeed she is and may she get everything that she deserves!

      • Malisha says:

        I’m not sure her outrageous and sociopathic statement about “feeling as bad as Trayvon’s mother” was attributable to “inability to express what she really means.” I think it was some unholy combination of undeserved self-importance, mental laziness and emotional dishonesty. If I were in the room with her when she said that I would have to slap her. (I know, I know, then B-37 woulda justifiably-homicided me in self-defense.)

        B-29 is a study of serpent-in-the-garden style (“The snake made me do it!”) irresponsibility. YOU bit the apple, woman? OK? You did? Then eat the damn apple and don’t carry on about who told you to do it. Eat that damn apple and own it. Otherwise nobody’s responsible for anything so what do I care what I do to YOU when, after all, somebody else may MAKE me do you some harm one day too.

        There’s a special circle of Hell for people who won’t own up to their own work. The work of B-29 (and probably her immortality project, if she does not come clean to an outside investigator) has been to go along with the program she then isn’t sure she really liked the ending of. Boo hoo.

        It reminds me of something I was thinking about Nelson. (Don’t ask me why I was thinking this about her.)

        Knock Knock.
        Who’s there?
        Evidence in the Fogen case.
        Evidence in the Fogen case? No thanks. I’ll wait for the movie.

    • longtimegeek says:

      It seemed pretty obvious to me from B37’s voir dire that she was a hidden leader for the defense. She had a palpable “I’m always right” talking style that wasn’t matched by the substance of what she was saying. Part of what gave her away was her supposed position on the media, supposedly only knowing news that her husband told her, and information about the case that she volunteered. I was struck by a sense of “She doesn’t make sense. Something’s way off.”

      Worse, I think the prosecution should have guarded against the possibility that she was a racist. If her talking style were couple with racism, there might be no getting through to her. Worse, she might talk down other jurors.

      Kathy Kellermann, a jury consultant, said that B37 was the number 2 juror on the defense’s list. Number 1 didn’t make it onto the jury. The defense must have been jumping for joy that a juror so high on their list made it.

  67. KateW says:

    I don’t want to be too harsh on this lady. I don’t like people calling her stupid and slow and what not. Hindsight is 20/20 and I believe they took advantage her her in that deliberation room. They figured because she is not White that they could manipulate her and they did. She will have to live with that verdict,unfortunately. As many of you have said she had 8 kids and is a CNA, and they should have known it would be a hardship for her. The verdict is egregious but I can’t really beat her up for it because there is plenty of blame to go around. Disheartening to say the least. I just hope the DOJ acts and is not putting this case on some back burner to be buried away in some back room.

    • Malisha says:

      I can’t go along with giving B-29 a free pass. Cannot. She knew that if she stayed and insisted on murder-2 or manslaughter the jury would be hung. She also knew that Fogen was guilty. She made a choice. Bad choice? Well guess what: Bad choices have bad consequences. I hope she’s ready for hers.

      • KateW says:

        I hear you. Yes, they do have consequences and I think someone had said she said her coworkers arent talking to her anymore. She was not part of the clan, as we saw the other jurors did not include her in that letter about B37. They got what they wanted out of her and they basically said you are on your own and you are not part of this wolf pack.

        The other 2 for manslaughter are next. They are about to get it too. No one is safe in this case. Not the judge, not the prosecution, the jury, or the defense. A lot of things are coming to light and it makes the whole court system look trifling.

      • Trained Observer says:

        X a million and 2.

        (B29 may be up to sumpem … a better job, improved social status in Sanford … or whatever got dangled in front of her in the jury room or at Outback. Now all she’ll get is disdain from both sides of the aisle and, more importantly, Trayvon’s parents. She deserves such wrath, big-time.)

      • type1juve says:

        I agree. I’m even more enraged because this woman knew she had the power to at least try to set things right and she just went along to get along. There’s no excuse for what she did. Even not having comprehension or critical thinking skills, she knew that about herself too. She went in anyway knowing she didn’t have proper decision making skills. I did wonder initially why a woman with 8 children would choose to be away from them indefinitely like that. Maybe there’s a book to follow.

        • Trained Observer says:

          Despite all the complaints and comments about the racist white women (difficult to dispute), I’m finding B29 as a black hispanic even more objectionable than the lawyer’s wife for the reasons you state and for her follow-up media performances.

          Maybe she was bowled over by Uncle Jorge

          How ironic that this woman with 8 kids is ending up about as respected as the original Octo-Mom.

        • bettykath says:

          If I had 8 kids I’d embrace a few weeks of sequester. 🙂

          • Trained Observer says:

            Well, yes, I’d try to string it out until Halloween, if not Thanksgiving. Do they serve turkey at Outback? 🙂

          • Two sides to a story says:

            😀 I’d sit in a dark closet for a month for entertainment if I had 8 kids.

    • sadlyyes says:

      the SYSTEM failed her as it failed Tray,and everybody looking for justice

    • lurker says:

      All seem to be forgetting that there were only three not guilties in that first vote. Not only did our black Hispanic friend get it right on the first go around, but she held out longer than the other two finders of guilt.

      And I do believe that both jurors who have spoken have provided statements that in the end point to the law as being faulty.

    • longtimegeek says:

      I actually feel sorry for her. She was talked into something that she still hasn’t completely wrapped her brain around and that contradicts her gut instincts and heart. It’s been eating her up. I believe that she is genuinely wracked with guilt. It’s a reminder that in some situations you have to be strong for yourself. Hang the jury so you can live with yourself, and let another jury decide.

      Don’t get me wrong. I completely disagree with what she did, because she truly believed that the evidence was there for murder 2. I also can’t identify with it, because I don’t know what it’s like to do a 180-degree cave in to others. So, it may just be me getting softer in my older age and feeling sorry for someone I don’t understand, but is obviously hurting over her decision.

      • cielo62 says:

        I hope she hurts and hurts and hurts for a very long time. Cowards die many deaths. And when gz kills again, the blood will be dripping off if her hands.

        FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

        • jm says:

          I agree with your coward dying many deaths, BUT what if B29 was convinced by other jurors at the time of deliberation who “interpreted” the law for her that she could not find him guilty because of the murder/manslaughter law in the state of Florida. I can see B37 authoritatively saying this is the way the law reads and B29 should listen to her because her husband is a lawyer and she has been in Florida for a long tjme (all her life?).

          I think B29 is the one who wanted further direction in the end and posed the question about manslaughter and when she did not get an answer from the judge/prosecution/defense, the jurors interpreted the law for her.

          It is too bad the prosecution left the law so vague. I remember during the Arias trial the prosecutor left no stone unturned when explaining the Arizona law and what was necessary to convict. Prosecutor Juan Martinez even explained circumstantial evidence that I never understood in simple layman’s terms.

          Sorry but I think this case was thrown by the prosecution and I think B37 was stealth juror. B29 was collateral damage.

      • KateW says:

        I totally agree. It is apparent it is eating her up. As you say she should have hung the jury and let another jury decide. That way despite it all, she could live with herself because she stuck to her verdict and what she knew was right. Guilty was the right verdict given the evidence. We don’t start this case from the fight, we begin the evidence from the time this man targeted, stalked and pursued this child, committing no crime, with a loaded weapon. She was on the right track and she let these numb skulls manipulate the situation. I know many of us have been in that situation.

  68. MDH says:

    GZ stated something to the effect of:

    I got Trayvon in a wristlock and carefully moved my hand to prevent shooting it as I fired into him dead center.

    WTF was she smoking???

    How is that not an intentional act that resulted in Trayvon”s death?

    I get the impression that they just watched the defense cartoon and called it a day. No need to go over all that real evidence that Obama and Holder had made up.

    • sadlyyes says:

      as so many have said,even if it was an accident…. it was still
      MANSLAUGHTER….or kidslaughter to be exact

    • ay2z says:

      Haven’t opened that, but the link you posted ins a ‘playlist’, since I’ve been there and done that, you need to check that the link is for the individual video, sometimes go back to the youtube user’s page to find the individual link for the video.

      Bit hard to watch a playlist of 419 videos. Check the url for this, then find the link for any video in the playlist to see the difference in how it looks.

      Hope this is helpful– been there. 🙂

  69. KateW says:

    The killer is still at it. With this contrived rescue, it is apparent this guy has learned nothing and still has this “hero complex” going on! I mean, the cop calls him out to a rescue and he heads out??!! This farce just put him into an even more negative light. This is what got this person into trouble the first time and he has shown himself to be an untrustworthy individual that is a racist and bigot with some kind of “hero complex”. I think many of you are right, he will kill again and brag he got away with it.

    • sadlyyes says:

      well this is my REAL problem,with this Dog and Pony Show…it is like a big game to these SYG types….thumbing their noses at polite society…if it even exists anymore in this country…this VERDICT has a ripple affect of evil

      • KateW says:

        Yes, it does. And yes, it is like a big game. After the judgement his ex had against him for abuse was dismissed he bragged about it on his MySpace page. I am sure he is doing the same with this case. It is back to business as usual. This verdict does have a ripple effect and that is it is saying it is ok to kill African American children and children of color and the law will give the killer a pass. This is why I have dedicated myself to writing Obama, Biden and Holder a letter every month. Granted they have no power to change the laws in that state, but something must be done.

    • elle says:

      This is exactly what my husband and I said when we heard about this, Kate. He is going to do this over and over. Freaking pyscho.

  70. Elijah says:

    Saw that pathetic interview with the lates juror. Sweet lord – Dr. Suess should have tried this case.

  71. Sophia33 says:

    When she said, did Fogen didn’t INTENT to kill Trayvon, it made no sense. Intent is not a part of manslaughter. So how do you go from 2nd degree murder to not guilty and skip over manslaughter?

    • ks says:

      Exactly and the prof. explained above intent to kill isn’t part of the M2 instruction either. So voting for M2 AND passing by Manslaughter to NG is utterly bizzare.

    • bettykath says:

      This is why she needed more information/explanation about manslaughter. I suspect that other jurors “explained” it to her.

      • ks says:

        Agree but it’s just crazy that her first vote was for M2 and apparently she either thought or, more likely, was told that she needed intent to kill to validate that decision. The Manslaughter thing is very fishy.

      • type1juve says:

        I think you’re right and that’s how we wound up with a NG verdict for a murderer. God help us all if these type of jurors continue to serve.

      • Girlp says:

        Her statements conflict you can tell she was confused and I agree sounds like the other jurors misinterpreted the law probably intended to mislead her and maybe others as well.

    • Malisha says:

      A man was executed in Florida in 2010 for first-degree murder committed when he was 19 years old, slightly retarded, and did not intend to kill. He went to his death at the age of 42 still unable to write a grammatically correct sentence but he was convicted. Any juror who would believe that “intent” was part of either Murder-2 OR manslaughter is lying. Murder-2 actually SAYS in real WORDS that the person does not form a prior INTENT to kill.

      • sadlyyes says:

        another Florida travesty
        and the governor of the state never served a day for the largest medicare fraud in history
        total corruption!
        i shall now go back to work

      • ks says:

        There you go! It’s plainly clear and not really a difficult legal concept. But this begs the question, if she thought she needed intent to kill the why did she vote for M2 in the first place? That doesn’t make sense. Even assuming she was talked out of it simply reading the law as provided would’ve provided support for her position.

  72. Trained Observer says:

    Furthermore, I believe sequestration contributed to this weak-minded woman’s difficulties.

    When serving on a jury, there’s a bonding process that occurs. Mature people understand that it is fleeting, and that few, if any, of a temporarily tight-knit group will remain in touch beyond a possible holiday card the following December. Sequestration with a small group of six, I would imagine, makes that situation even more pronounced.

    B29 allowed herself to be duped into thinking she could become a Sanford insider by the three racists. Already, she’s clearly having second thoughts about that,and sne now realizes nobody, including her co-workers, want anything to do with her.

    Is it bizarre? Seemingly, this denial of Justice for Trayvon, came from a perfect storm:

    * While leaving out or inadequately highlighting key points of the murder, the State nevertheless failed to design a KISS prosecution with a bar low enough for dummies like B29.

    * Judge Nelson gets no awards for her jury instructions that apparently failed to make things clear for the non-plant jurors who could have at least hung the trial.

    * Sequestration was largely silly, given more than a year of poisoning the jury pool.

    * In this case voir dire was a joke. Six of the most racist morons in Seminole county could have come up with the same result without two weeks of court time or the expense of sequestration.

  73. KateW says:

    A lot of you were saying, before this lady came out, that the instructions were misleading and vague. She just confirmed it. She also confirmed she believed he was guilty but was pressured by a group of the killer’s supporters to allow the maniac to go free. People are still pulling this selective information BS, where they talk about Trayvon’s record, which is nil, compared to the killer’s violent history and record of racism and profiling.
    Yeah they knew what they were doing when they wrote that up.
    This is the reason people need to think for themselves. She allowed herself to be swayed and now she feels remorseful because she says he is guilty. Shame.

    • sadlyyes says:

      yes confusing instructions,more the reason to “take your time” in going through everything.Unfortunately she did not have the precious time to spare.i really wish she would have asked to be excused

      • bettykath says:

        She didn’t have the time to spare? Where is this from? I didn’t hear that. I’d be more interested to know which juror/s insisted on pushing for a decision that night. Why not sleep on it?

        • Trained Observer says:

          Yes, why not? .

        • tinytruthseeker says:

          It hasn’t been said ANYWHERE…. just MORE trashing of a “perceived” poor uneducated minority momma with too many mouths to feed…. when in fact she is a MARRIED middle class mom of 8 children who has a job and who made it CLEAR from the beginning that finances and childcare were NOT an obstacle in her fulfilling her civic duty if she was called to do so….

          • cielo62 says:

            Tiny truth seeker- and yet had no qualms about letting an unrepentant child killer loose. She’s a miserable excuse for a mother. Shit, she’s a poor excuse for a human being!

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • jm says:

            If I remember correctly, B29 was eager to serve saying there would be no problems with her job or child care.

        • sadlyyes says:

          if she had no time constraints ,which i find hard to believe,than shame on her for being capricious,un conscientious and if you will
          A RUSH to judgement…ill give her the benefit of the doubt ,and say her chilren were missing her and urging her to come home

  74. Jasmine says:

    Off, way off topic but a friend post about the gang rape of a 13 year old in Texas. She was raped by a black male, some immigrants and I don’t know who else. She provided a link to Glenn Beck ranting about ‘where is the outrage’ and ‘it’s not part of the agends’….this is what I wrote back.
    Okay I wasn’t going to say a thing but come on seriously. Are Blacks and immigrants the only ones that rape others? Uh no. Whites rape more than blacks or hispanics so come off it. Where is your outrage when that 17 year old white male kidnapped and raped that 6 year old in Texas whose body was found under a tarp by some young boys. Oh what about that other high school white male who dismembered that 7 year old in Colorado. Oh and Cherish whose murderer a 56 year old white male befriended her mother and took them to walmart when Cherish went off with him. Her body was found 12 hours later. Where is your outrage?

    • Boyd says:

      there is enough bad things going on with all groups, might as well drop the nukes on the entire planet. That will solve it.

      At work a couple Asian immigrants were talking about the Martin case, one said he was robbed by some blacks kids once.
      I guess he meant you have to beware of black kids, I don’t know.
      The funny thing is they had a riot in his former home a week or two ago, and over 100 people were killed in 1 night. So I guess I should be wary of him. lol!

    • me says:

      If those defendants were charged and arrested I don’t see what Becks complaint is. Zimmerman wasn’t arrested, police covered for him, jury set him free.

  75. colin black says:

    OK OT but have attempted to post in two previous posts an end up in moderation

    Think it must be because I post a link to Amazon.

    Anyway Ive informed a friend of mine Derek Dykes whom has copy righted the phrase thease coulours don’t run.

    As the title of a book he wrote an the name of an in production movie based on the book.

    That certain zimmspin nuts were adopting the phrase as there own.

    He has Informed his lawer an they are going to issue a cease an desist notice on any group trying to hijack this motto or phrase.

    An besides that he isn’t the type of person you cross

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_City_Service

  76. me says:

    For the life of me I can’t understand why her having 8 kids and a CNA job is not a hardship. She should not have been on the jury and the defense took advantage of her naivete.

    But as we all know Fogen got the defense he paid for. The “justice” system is all a big game. I’ve lost all respect for it.

    • sadlyyes says:

      agreed.

    • dianetrotter says:

      I’m wondering how she was looked on in the deliberation room – minority with low level job, “8” kids, arrest history, and speaking in support of a wild gorilla thug. There are ways to talk about race without saying “RACE.”

      • sadlyyes says:

        arrest history

        well i did not know that..that would IMO predispose her to wanting to be with the others for acceptance,and forgiveness for her own shortcommings….very convluted mental gyrations going on here

      • roderick2012 says:

        @diane, I was thinking the same thing.

        I can only imagine what types of manipulations B37 conjured up along with the two other jurors who were originally not guilty votes.

    • Olivia says:

      No matter how many children, jobs, or daily responsibilities you have, you decide if being called as a juror will be a hardship.

      B37 claims to work hard all day long feeding her pets, and lining the cages she keeps them in, but she, like all jurors, decides whether being called as a juror will be a hardship.

  77. Boyd says:

    Thank You Professor setting that straight. She should have spent more time looking at the evidence logically and not interpreting JN’s instructions. She’s not qualified.

  78. KateW says:

    They are saying the killer’s rescue of the family was staged. The officer involved was and is a long time supporter of the killer, as per his facebook, before and after the incident; however, during the day of the crash he makes no mention of Zimmerman being there. The officer then deletes his facebook and twitter page, but not after folks captured it. Uh huh…I will let you guys read the rest.

    http://newsball.com/exclusive-pictures-of-the-family-that-george-zimmerman-saved-from-a-burning-car-or-was-it-staged/

    • Boyd says:

      of course there was some tomfoolery. Fogen and his 1 in a million ‘look what happened to me’ stories. there will be more bullsheet stories to come over the years. I’ve only been first responder of an accident 3-4 times in 40 years.

      I’m certain Shellie will be calling the cops one night and Fogen will claim “she hit me first”

      • KateW says:

        I doubt it. Shellie is a sheep. You heard the jailhouse calls. She does whatever he says and babies the guy. He is always quick to harass, belittle, assault, profile etc. but then when the tables are turned he is always the victim.

        • lurker says:

          I dunno–she was the mastermind behind trying to have Tracy Martin removed, for allegedly threatening one of the Zim cousins. I wouldn’t sell her short.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Yes, don’t for a moment think that this marriage will be anything close to “all’s well that end’s well” with the not guilty verdict. They’ll likely go broke and will find themselves virtually unemployable. Or if the money keeps trickling in, they’ll fight over it.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          Their lives will be strange and stressed once the verdict honeymoon is over.

          • jm says:

            Still looking forward to Shellie’s perjury charge trial ironic if she gets a sentence and GZ does not. Might cause a strain depending on income generated by GA web site. Shellie has always seemed to me as in it for easy money.

        • Lynn says:

          Think about the stress “cutie” will face to keep Shellie in the lifestyle she has grown accustomed to this past year. How hard will he have to work to provide hotel concierge services, bon bons and an infinite bank account to handle all of Shellie’s desires. Add in an ongoing trial or lawsuit or to and I’d say the honeymoon phase is OVER!

    • lurker says:

      There has been some talk about Anthony Weiner lately and whether he has some narcissistic disorder that makes him seek a spotlight whether positive or negative.

      Wonder if Zim is similarly afflicted. I mean, after a narrow escape (and he’s not completely out of the woods yet), and despite all O’Mara’s (and Jr’s) talk of his need to live in hiding, he spends his time listening to the police scanner for another opportunity to play cop.

      The man is clearly pathological.

  79. colin black says:

    She has the nerve to bracket her hurt on a par with Trayvons MOTHER what a hypocrite .
    She has no concept of the greif inflicted on the Martins an she conspired to inflict even more pain on them.

    By letting a murderer walk she couldn’t find anything that showed he shot Trayvon an ment to kill him?

    REALY.

    Must have slept through the entire trial then…..

    How dare she claim victimhood poor me poor me pour me another drink brigade.

    • sadlyyes says:

      i hate to say this and again for debbymore,this is my IMO

      this country is made up of juror b29 types having critical thinking skills are absent,and whats more they dont really care about their neighbors.i bought some day old bread,and left a few pennies,for peeps,that dont have proper change.
      i mentioned i was civic minded as a joke( actually an animal rescuer) and he said to me”hardly anyone around here is” and i thought to myself…how sad is that.

      • Jasmine says:

        You got that right. A lot of ignorant people out there and it does not bode well for our society at all. All it takes is good thinking skills. It is like solving a word problem really. People don’t like to think too hard.

        • sadlyyes says:

          were we always this divided? i swear i didnt remeber this attitude when i was growing up…mebbe its just memory fog

          • Jasmine says:

            I am sure it was just well hidden. I think that we all were surprised at the level of ignorance that we have been witness to. It is appalling and how someone could be proud of the fact that our country has sunken so low is beyond me.

    • dianetrotter says:

      Seems like her lawyer should have prepared her to say intelligent stuff.

    • exactly colin. I almost jump kicked my tv when I heard that! unbelievable!
      I can’t believe it..

  80. sadlyyes says:

    okay here is MY IMO
    this dumbo should never have been seated,as her commitment to the trial was hampered by her having 8 children to tend to.She should have been dismissed,as her priorities were her family,not an indefinite time in a SEARCH for the TRUTH.her capricious effort has hurt millions.

    • bettykath says:

      I so disagree with you. jmo.

      • sadlyyes says:

        okay,fair enuf,but why? if you wish to elaborate

        • bettykath says:

          It was up to her to decide if her children would interfere with her serving, not you or me. How do you know what her priorities are? She undoubtedly had someone who take care of them.

          Dumbo? I don’t think so. She’s the only one who saw m2. Not strong enough to stand up to the others on her own? yes. Not assertive enough to read the law for herself? yes. It’s hard to be the one who disagrees with 5.

          • Olivia says:

            I agree, and wish to add that Nelson made it more difficult for her to keep her resolve by approving the request to work through dinner.

          • Olivia says:

            @bettykath, “She’s the only one who saw m2”.

            . . . means B29 was the smartest woman on the jury.

            Seems she was held hostage in that room. Five women waiting for her to agree with their decision.

            Was she free to walk away?

            Did she have to stay in that room until B37 called it a day?

          • lsimon3321 says:

            bettykath, this juror told them repeatedly that she did not want to be on the jury. She told them repeatedly that she had 8 children and did not like to leave her responsibility for them to others. MOM and BDLR both asked her repeatedly if she couldn’t honor to responsibility to serve on the jury and she repeated her priorities and concerns (all 9 of them) which included not being paid if she did not come to work. It isn’t us saying she should have but didn’t.

          • jm says:

            It was my impression the juror was eager to be on the jury and said her kids would be watched after by her husband and her mother.

          • sadlyyes says:

            she might have seen m2 ( an odd choice of words) i saw a Bently Azure yesterday,and i am no closer to commiting to buy it,then my Cat Harry is….If she believed he was guilty of m2she should have said,,I HAVE A WIT,and WONT AQUIT…period

          • deetruth says:

            Isimon, are you sure? I don’t recall her ever objecting to being on the jury and I did watch jury selection. As a matter of fact, I remember thinking and laughing to myself about how she may consider sequestration as a much needed vacation from that house full of kids.

          • lsimon3321 says:

            deetruth – yes, I am sure. Not being able to see her face when she answered in voir dire may have hampered my impression; but, it seemed to me that her voice did not sound like she wanted to be on the jury. I think she had hoped that mentioning the 8 children on that juror info paper that she would automatically be taken off the jury. I would expect it. She said at least twice that she did not want to leave her children for others to take care of. She said she preferred to take care of her responsibilities with the children herself. They (BDLR and MOM) each asked her if she couldn’t find someone to take care of the kids. She said she could but preferred not to. They finally got her to say that she would try to do her duty despite the hardships, which included not being paid for days that she was not at work. I think the defense decided they wanted her b/c she fulfilled the need for a person of color on the jury and Hispanic origin at the same time and it was obvious from the way they pressed her into accepting that she had a duty to serve on the jury if called and therefore would make some kind of arrangements to have her children cared for by someone(s) else.

          • lsimon3321 says:

            She was easy to press into service is what I faded out in trying to say; therefore, easy to persuade to go with the majority and get out sooner. She also mentioned moving from Chicago to the area and that she had a lot of friends on both sides but predominantly on the TM side of the argument. I think she hoped that would keep her out also. She ended by claiming that she tried not to care one way or the other but that she could and would make up her own mind what was right.

          • lsimon3321 says:

            I stand corrected. I went to YouTube to listen to B-29’s voir dire interview and she definitely sounds interested in being on this jury. She does say her husband can take care of the kids and everything else you all heard her say, I guess I was only halfway listening after they asked her about being sequestered.

      • tinytruthseeker says:

        I agree with YOU bettykath….and I WILL elaborate….I find the characterization of this juror as a “DUMBO” Insulting to this woman and women in general!….. as if a good mother is incapable of performing her civic duty….especially if as we KNOW now financial hardship and childcare were NOT an issue….TRAYVON Martin was America’s Child….. he deserved a jury of WILLING people…. this woman was WILLING to make a sacrifice….

        We may be disappointed that she didn’t hold her ground….we may be disappointed in the end she simply didn’t understand the LAW…. but I for one will NOT judge her ability as a mother or her dedication to her children….NO WAY!

        • sadlyyes says:

          nobody has discredited her as a mother…here we go again…common sense would tell one that you can NOT be in 2 places at the same time,therefore a 3 week absence from her children,made her more wiling to cave,imo
          and forgive me but manslaughter does NOT require intent to kill,just an intent to do an action,that migh cause death,or bodily harm…when Fogen pulled a gun with HP bullets,one in the chamber, and pulled the trigger that satisfies intent
          and if she was the smartest one in the jury ,we are in great peril.

          • tinytruthseeker says:

            MANSLAUGHTER
            To prove the crime of Manslaughter, the State must prove the following two elements
            beyond a reasonable doubt:
            1. Trayvon Martin is dead.
            2. George Zimmerman intentionally committed an act or acts that caused the death of Trayvon Martin

            The word INTENT is in the instruction….. perhaps those that follow crime blogs and murder trials are “hip” to the LETTER of the law…. my guess is that THIS woman was NOT…. and she had it “explained” to her by her new “buddy
            B37….who after all is the wife of a LAWYER….

            And MANY mothers manage to be FABULOUS parents while away from their children for extended periods for one reason or another…. you ABSOLUTELY disparaged this woman as a MOTHER..and called her names on top of it…. End of story

          • sadlyyes says:

            hey TINY…i did not discredit her as a mother…she was a piss poor juror…okay you dig?..i wouldnt care if she was MOTHER teresa,she blew it,and said so!!!!

          • Vickis Smith says:

            @sadly- If she would have read the instructions she would have seen this; it was one of the clearest statements.

            Her comment was in direct opposition to this. And to suggest that for Manslaughter you would have to have been planning to murder George Zimmerman from before you left your house? She might be sweet, but she was a disaster as a juror.

            And she knows he was guilty of murder, but the trial was just for publicity? (her comments).

          • deetruth says:

            Sounds to me like she was the smartest one on the jury. Sounds to me like she was the one insisting on murder 2 up to the end. Sounds like all the others had already decided to let George get away with murder, so they certainly weren’t the smart ones. So yes, IMO, B29 was the smartest one on the jury. And yes, we are in great peril.

          • Lynn says:

            I would not say she was the smartest, but I would say she was the weakest.
            She held no beliefs close to heart or mind and swayed with the wind.
            Juror 37 might be ignorant, but she was the strongest in the room.
            Sometimes being smart gets you nowhere.
            Being headstrong and confident in what you believe is what 29 needed in that room filled with the lesser smart women because they won.

          • cielo62 says:

            Lynn~ EXCELLENT post!

            ________________________________

        • type1juve says:

          Trayvon also deserved a jury WILLING to render a just verdict. He didn’t get that, not with this woman or any of the other jurors. This woman’s decision to serve was hers to make and no one should judge her for that no matter what her responsibilities at home were. The fact that she was so easily led by others makes me wonder if this really was a sacrifice for her. Maybe she and the racist juror B37 both planned on profiting off of the death of a child. For her to come out now and make the comments she is making is confusing to me given the fact that she chose to let a murderer go free. She could have hung the jury and she did know that much, but just to give in when you know the person is guilty. It shows total lack of regard for a child’s life and I just don’t understand that.

          • cielo62 says:

            Type1jyve- I share your confusion. How can someone totally disregard a child’s life? I don’t get it. And then she wants us to know “hard” it was to be on that jury. Gag.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • Two sides to a story says:

            THe jury seems to make the trial about justice for Fogen and forgot about the victim. OM’s plan to victimize the victim worked.

          • deetruth says:

            What about the other 5 jurors? Are we holding them to the same standards or did we just decide that it was solely B29’s responsibility to obtain justice for Trayvon? I’m so confused.

            It’s starting to sounds like everyone else got a COMPLETE pass except the woman of color, and it was her burden and hers alone to do the right thing.

          • cielo62 says:

            deetruth~ that’s because she claims to have been the last hold out. Except that she DIDN’T hold out and now a murderer is free. If it had been unanimous from the very beginning so be it. But she held herself out as somehow being more “moral” than the rest, but caved in just because she felt “pressure.” OF COURSE the other 5 are bad! OF COURSE the entire stinking SPD and all of Sanford is guilty! BUT BUT BUT this person decided to play being the only one concerned for justice, but then just capitulated in the face of convenience. I’ve said it before: this is how evil happens in the world: people who know better but refuse to do what’s right.

            ________________________________

          • gblock says:

            Three ABC news programs (the evening news, Nightline, and GMA) included parts of her interview. It was advertised that GMA would show the full interview, but Nightline actually included some parts that weren’t on GMA. There was a lot of overlap between the parts shown on the different shows.

            All in all, I was disappointed with what was shown. It all seemed to be mostly Maddy’s mea culpas. Nowhere did they talk much about things like what she believes about the actual events of the night of the killing, what witnesses, evidence, or claims she was most influenced by or found most believable, or what really went on between the jurors to get her to change her mind about the verdict.

            It is a big concern that she was apparently so misled about what was required for manslaughter. But she hasn’t said enough to let us figure out exactly why she reached that conclusion.

            When the jury instructions were read aloud in court, I myself was not very clear on what was required for manslaughter, and how the issues of GZ instigating the whole thing versus his self defense claim entered into it. For witness B29 herself, it is not clear what part the other jurors played, if any, in possibly further misleading her.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Out of curiosity, did B29 personally pop out all these kids … or has she adopted, or taken in others to raise? I’ve not seen this addressed.

      As someone without much seniority at her place of employment, I’m guessing B29 felt pressure to wrap things up. True, no employer can sack a worker for serving on a lengthy trial, but she’s already proved herself too stupid to understand that.

      In Florida, an employer who wants to get rid of someone can do so without much difficulty, and B29 looks to be the type who would be easy to entrap in some minor transgressions.

      She’ll be carefully watched. Fair or not, I’m betting she won’t be living in Seminole County all that much longer.

      • bettykath says:

        about the kids… I don’t see it as any of our business. As I understand it, she left Chicago for FL for the safety of her kids. I agree she is not likely to stay there much longer. Probably just long enough to find another job elsewhere.

        • Trained Observer says:

          When factoring in her suitability to serve as a juror in a lengthy trial, I would definitely weigh in the size and ages of her brood, especially if she is single.

          In addition, as previously mentioned, I would want to know if, at 36, she were the bio mom of all eight or whether some are adopted or of foster status, whether any pregnancies yielded multiple births, and how many bio dads are involved.

          Judgmental? Yes. Any of my business? Yes, if I were a jury consultant.

          Frankly, in the present era of world population concerns, with the economy we’ve had during the past decade and a half, and with assorted birth control methods available, I would think twice about seating anyone opting to have so many kids to care for and shelter.

          I almost said brainlessly opting.

          One thing’s for sure: B29 proved brainless.

          • bettykath says:

            Neighbor is pregnant with twins. Oldest of 4 others just turned 7. She will have 6 kids under 8 years old. Daddy is a pastor in a church that advocates home schooling so their kids don’t get contaminated by others. They don’t teach any sex education except abstinence. The twins aren’t a surprise since there are twins on both sides of the family.

          • Ms.X says:

            You need to take it over to the Duggar’s website. Right or wrong, people get to make those decisions for themselves here. Perhaps you would prefer China. You’d also be upset to know that many RW, backward states are working daily to eliminate birth control and a woman’s right to a safe & legal abortion. I hope you put your energy into mobilizing for freedom of choice.

          • Trained Observer says:

            Betty Kath — Quite frightening. Six hapless kids home-schooled by parents of questionable judgment. Each additional birth will sap opportunity from those already in the household.

            With luck, none will grow up to be little fogens.

          • Vickis Smith says:

            @Trained Observer

            She’s married, 38 years old. Large families are part of the Catholic belief system.

            She just doesn’t seem to be able to comprehend instructions, and had minimal understanding at best of about everything.

          • Trained Observer says:

            @Vicki — The old “she’s Catholic and they all pop out kids like crazy” argument just doesn’t fly any more, not even in Puerto Rico, where economic common sense has trumped mindless breeding among the intelligent.

          • cielo62 says:

            Trained observer~ “among the intelligent.” There’s always a caveat, right?

            ________________________________

        • Malisha says:

          So she’ll have to reevaluate the safety of Sanford for her kids. Are they light-skinned enough to evade Fogen’s next gun?

          • Two sides to a story says:

            Wouldn’t that be interesting if she stayed and one of her older kids became Fogen’s next victim. God’s plan squared.

      • Olivia says:

        Nelson wanted to speed things along, too. If I understand correctly, B37 would have been the juror who literally wrote the request to work through dinner.

        It’s possible that they were all agreeable to working through dinner, but there would have been one individual first suggesting it.

        At least one juror truly wanted to speed things along.

        Otherwise, the request to work through dinner wouldn’t have been made.

        Maybe another juror will be interviewed and describe how the decision to ask Nelson for permission to work through dinner came to be.

        • elcymoo says:

          i’ve faulted Judge Nelson for letting the jurors set their own terms for deliberations ever since I first saw her give them permission to continue their deliberations through lunch or dinner. I’m not familiar with how other judges have handled this issue, and I realize that the jury has the responsibility of making the final ruling, but it seems to me that an orderly process of deliberations is needed in order to allow jurors a break from what can be unrelenting pressure from their fellow jurors.

          • Olivia says:

            @elcymoo, yes – non-stop deliberating has got to be stressful.

            Nelson’s job was to referee. Imagine a volleyball game with 5 players on one side of the net and 1 on the other side.

            A leader on the side that has 5 players asks the referee for permission to eat dinner while playing.

            The referee says “sure, go for it”.

            In between taking turns punching the ball over the net to the 1 player, the 5 players each manage to eat their dinner.

            Guess who never even gets to eat dinner?

            Hours later the 5 players are taking turns napping on the court – 4 napping at a time.

            The 1 player is very tired, but there’s nobody on her side of the net to take her place.

            Eventually, she collapses.

            Game over.

      • gblock says:

        A juror doesn’t have to be stupid or afraid of losing her job to want to finish things up so that she can go home to her family, or to feel pressured by other jurors wanting to go home to their families.

      • deetruth says:

        Wow. I’m reading some disturbing comments.

        B29 has said or done absolutely nothing from my point of view to cause anyone to delve into her personal life – kids, job, etc.

        I wish she’d held her ground on her beliefs about George’s quilt. I also wish she’d had a better understanding of the jury instructions.

        I also wish the OTHER JURORS had had a better understanding of the instructions and that they (at least 3 of them) had not come into the room with the opinion that George should get away with murder. Maybe the other five white ladies didn’t have a bunch of children to take care of and maybe they had more tenure or stability at their jobs or maybe they had financial means such that they didn’t need jobs, or heck, maybe in some people’s minds they were just “better” than the brown juror with all those kids who was an outsider from an urban area (and yes, right or wrong, I’m hearing some things in some of the comments.) But bottom line, at least B29 seems to have considered Trayvon in this whole matter. And at least B29 was woman enough to own her position in front of the world. And at least she doesn’t appear to be trying to make a fast buck off of this trial.

        So I’m not going to denigrate her, make negative assumptions about her personal life or her intelligence, or hold her solely responsible for the verdict.

        • cielo62 says:

          deetruth~ Except that she is NOT “owning her position in front of the world.” She’s been casting blame on everybody else in that deliberation room, claiming to being bullied. You can only be bullied if you permit it. She’s looking to get off the hook from her conscience.

          ________________________________

    • roderick2012 says:

      @sad

      I was dumbfounded when I heard that she had made the jury. Although her oldest is 20 the other seven are still at home so she definitely could have claimed hardship to get out of jury duty unless the fix was in and the jury consultant spotted her vulnerability and wanted her on the jury because they could say that there was a minority on the jury when Piglet was acquitted

    • Ms.X says:

      I feel that she made an egregious mistake & I also agree that she folded to get home to her kids. Her youngest are 3 yo twins. I predicted that she would not last the duration of the trial. But I dont think the word DUMBO is a fitting title or description. Its pretty offensive to me that you would call her that, and I’m speaking as a woman of color. Please don’t.

      I think she had empathy but didn’t have the spine. She looks terribly young to me & I wouldn’t be surprised if she was 25-27 yrs. old with 8 kids. She is obviously not well educated, & you could flip a coin as to whether she actually graduated from high school or not. B37 is not intellectually superior to her even though she is married to a lawyer. I’d say they are intellectual peers, though we would presume B37 graduated from hs & may have had some college, though it doesn’t show, imo. I think she should’ve been excused from jury duty in the beginning. Like I said before, I NEVER would have agreed to serve knowing I have young children. I have refused to serve because my kids come 1st, and I have only 2 kids. Her cause was to get home to her kids as much as B37’s cause was to acquit the murderer. I think she is simple minded enough that they easily confused her and convinced her of something that wasn’t true. I think the other white women were willing to be lead & influenced & she didn’t have the intellect or energy to fight the stronger personalities. She was easily brainwashed. Same with the casey anthony trial.

      1)The general population is not intellectually developed enough to understand the jury instructions.
      2) The prosecution delivered a weak case which neglected to paint a clear, concise picture which lined up with forensic evidence & witness testimony.
      3) The jury instructions were incomplete or perhaps intentionally corrupted.
      4) 1 or more jurors were stealth jurors

      • Olivia says:

        B37 may have been anxious to get out of there so she could call her literary agent.

      • I agree.

        This hideous debacle had many causes and it would be extremely unfair, I think, to place all of the blame on this 29-year-old woman.

        She must share the blame because she was the last person who could have prevented this disaster, but we must never forget that she would not have been in that situation, but for the mistakes of others.

        What is the universe telling us by delivering this perfect storm of mistakes, some deliberate and some not, in full view of a world that could plainly see what so many in this land were too blind to see?

        Ultimately, we must answer this question and that indistinct face in your darkest dream may be your own.

        • tinytruthseeker says:

          She is 36 yrs old. Married and made it clear she didn’t need to worry about her job or childcare…. last I checked to work in ANY area of the medical field one has to have AT LEAST the equivalency of a HS diploma (GED?) I am REALLY disheartened at the personal trashing of this young mothers character Professor! Not by you…. but I am BARELY into this thread and the hateful words are breaking my heart!!!

          • cielo62 says:

            Tinytruthseeker- we are all ticked royally that she has the temerity to say that gz got away with murder when SHE could have stopped him!! If we know nothing else, we KNOW she is a coward who refuses to take responsibility for her failings. Gee , maybe she saw herself in that loser gz? I will continue to spit on her. God forbid some psycho lunatic with a gun shoots one of HER children! If so, he better walk,too and THEN she will truly know what Sybrina feels.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • jm says:

            I think B20 was intimidated by B37 (the upper middle class lawyer’s wife) who pretended she knew something legal she did not, just like B37 was putting notions in the mind of “George” and could read his “good” heart.

            I wish she would have stuck with her original wish to find GZ guilty but who knows what was said to convince her to vote not guilty.

            I would rather have see B29 hang the jury than cave but I am betting the conniving manipulating B37 had something to do with her “interpreting” the law for B29.

            It would be interesting to hear from other jurors, especially the 2 others who originally wanted the manslaughter charge.

            I think B37 was a stealth juror who was determined to see GZ walk from the get-go.

          • deetruth says:

            Me too. I’m almost in a rage the more I read the comments about B29. The dog whistles are starting to sound loud and clear. I’m disturbed by it all. B29 was not the biggest problem on this juror. It was the three who came into the room with a not guilty verdict in mind to start with. Can’t speak about the other two just yet.

            My mother and I grew up in the Jim Crow south, altho I now live elsewhere. My mother is 99 years old, completed 7th grade but couldn’t go any farther because the closest school was too far away – she couldn’t attend the white school, and for that matter, neither could I. She is very smart, reads all the time, looks up words, concepts, events, etc. she doesn’t know in the dictionary and a very old set of World Books encyclopedias, is curious and is still very alert, informed and engaged at 99. (She also still drives, but that’s a topic for another thread/day). My point is, just because someone may or not have diplomas/degrees doesn’t mean they are dumb and vice-versa. Regardless of B37’s educational level – which we don’t know, and regardless of her husband’s law degree, she didn’t sound like the sharpest tool in the shed to me. Being white and marrying well does NOT equal being smart – I’m just saying.

            [Side Note: This afternoon, my mother said she remembered being taught in school that the way to remember the names of the great lakes was to remember the word HOMES (Huron, Ontario, Michigan, Erie, Superior). I thought that was pretty cool.]

        • sadlyyes says:

          she is 36… i am personally in favor of the French system,of having a well educated judge,determining my fate

          • Two sides to a story says:

            I am too. Or a panel of judges. I hear far too many stories of backwater juries either convicting innocent people or letting guilty ones walk. There needs to be some some truly impartial people with legal education obseriving jury trials.

          • deetruth says:

            Me too. I was on jury duty years ago and after deliberating with my peers/jurors on both a civil and a criminal case, I immediately concluded that I did not want people like that deciding my fate. It was scary.

        • J4TMinATL says:

          You know what lawyers say? Juries consist of people who on average have a 5th grade education

      • Olivia says:

        All the more reason for a judge to be sensitive to the needs of jurors to take a break from deliberations.

        Imagine an entire day of forewoman B37 disagreeing with you.

        Then – GREAT – B37 gets to disagree with you all through dinner, too!

        • Olivia says:

          . . . after listening to B37 and four other women disagree with you throughout dinner, you have to sit in a room with them.

          For how long?

          Until you agree with their decision?

          Are you allowed to send a note to the judge to let her know that you want to return to your hotel room?

          Do you really have to sit there until B37 chooses to tell the judge she’s ready to return to her hotel room?

          WTH – isn’t that the same as being held hostage?

          • jm says:

            I could not stand to sit in a room with B37. Just sayin….

          • Olivia says:

            JM, I would have been breaking windows to escape after 30 minutes, max.

          • jm says:

            Listening to B37 on Anderson Cooper interview she seems very self-righteous and a bit of a know-it-all when it came to “George” and how he must feel, a bit unbelievable, over-the-top and dramatic. Condescending as well when it came to Rachael and Trayvon.

          • Olivia says:

            @JM, “a bit unbelievable” – yes, she was. Lines cages with newspapers, but never reads them.

            Said she doesn’t have TIME to read them. She’s just so busy feeding and cleaning up after animals all day long.

            I care for 2 dogs and about 20 cats everyday. It does not take more than an hour of my time to feed and clean up after them.

            I spend about an hour and a half walking the dogs each day.

            So, I know that B37 didn’t tell the court how she spends MOST of the hours of her day.

            Hmm, now why would she not want the court to know how she spends MOST of her day?

          • jm says:

            I wondered why B37 even subscribed to a newspaper if she did not read it.

          • cielo62 says:

            Jm- for lining cages. I did that for awhile.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • Olivia says:

            B37 lied by omission. She omitted how she spends most of her day.

            Also, she somehow managed to give the impression that she cares for a lot of animals.

            She doesn’t. She cares for a few pets.

            So do I and many other people. But, if a court asked how I spend my days I wouldn’t let on that my entire day is spent taking care of my pets.

            Did you all notice Zimmerman’s smiles and nods of agreement as B37 talked her nonsense?

            He desperately wanted her to be on the jury.

          • tinytruthseeker says:

            You get to send a note…. signed and approved by the jury foreperson…. who wants to lay odds who THAT was? jus sayin

      • aussie says:

        She can’t be 29 if she has a 20-year-old. I think they said she’s 36 or so. So, looks like no college, lucky to have finished high school. B37 is a nurse practitioner which I assume means at least high school and two years of something after that. None of which proves intelligence either way.

        The instruction ..”…prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant intended to commit the act or acts that resulted in Trayvon’s death…” I can well see someone with alleged legal-knowledge-by-marriage explaining as the act involved being “murder”, NOT “shooting”.

        In fact the act that resulted in the death was GZ getting out of his truck. Had he stayed put they’d never have met up, and none of the fight/wrestling shooting could have happened.

        • You’re right, of course. My brain short-circuited. Her number was B29. That’s where the 29 came from.

        • gblock says:

          You’re wrong about nurse practitioners. A nurse practitioner is more highly trained than an RN, requiring post-high school training similar to that of a Master’s degree or at least a BS.

          There are several recognized types of nursing degrees and certificates in the US, and some only require about 2 years post-high school, so you may have it mixed up with something else.

        • deetruth says:

          How do you know what B29’s education is. Lucky to have finished HS? How do you know that and why are you assuming such?

          Her personal life – family, children, education, etc., – isn’t our business, but for all those questioning the 8 children, she is married so did anyone ever consider the fact that maybe, just maybe, she didn’t have 8 deliveries. Maybe her children are a combination of his, mine and ours? But even if she delivered 8 babies, so what? Does that make her a bad person, or dumb, or not fit for jury duty? (And if someone on this thread dares to venture out and call her a “taker”, I’m really going to lose it, for whatever that’s worth.)

          • aussie says:

            Oldest is 20, so she had her at 16, so that puts a question mark on high school, no?

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @aussie

            if the oldest child is one that she delivered herself at 16, then it may have some impact on her HS education. many 16 year olds do complete HS even if they have become young parents if they have good family support.

            her post HS education reveals that she has CNA certification, that would indicate, by necessity, that she at least earned a HS equivalency or GED.

          • tharealkeisha says:

            My oldest is 21. I am 37 and I graduated in top 10 . I’m also an RN used to be an LPN. Before then Had BS in Biology. It’s not the 50s.

          • Trained Observer says:

            I’m not a medical professional (and I know many on this board are), but I’d like to go on record as hoping B29 (described on ABC as a “nurse’s aide” ) does not have authorization to dispense any medications whatsoever where she works. I wouldn’t want to count on her ability to fetch a couple of aspirin fron the dispensary and come back with the right pills.

            Have just watched B29’s interview with Robin Roberts again. What a self-serving dope.

        • J4TMinATL says:

          Olivia

          I noticed his smiles during her questioning by Omara. Creepy

          • Vickis Smith says:

            “Maddy” has been reported to be 38 and 36, depending on the source. I would think 38 is more likely.

            I read a scathing report by an “insider” in the business on how her ABC interview was parsed- that the entire one has not been seen, and that what looks like a smooth continuation was not. They just strung pieces together.

    • Olivia says:

      sadlyyes, IMO, you’re the dumbo. Misogynist, too. Women with children shouldn’t be jurors? If you really believe that, then yes – you’re definitely dumb.