We have unfinished business: Justice for Jordan

Wednesday, July 17, 2013

Good morning:

Tee said,

You were right professor from the beginning, you had fear that this would happen with one or more of the jurors. Indeed juror 37 was the one, who know how many others there were. I listened to her interview on hln, and was floored. She let her true colors show even behind that black out screen. Its funny how people don’t realize that God is vengeful. This is why us African-American don’t have faith in the justice system. There is no justice for us.

We have unfinished business: Justice for Jordan Davis.

The time has come to pick ourselves up off the ground and get back to work.

Justice denied to anyone is justice denied to everyone.

Let’s work together to make justice happen.

September 23, 2013 in Jacksonville, Fl


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251 Responses to We have unfinished business: Justice for Jordan

  1. dianetrotter says:

    Perhaps it is post traumatic stress syndrome but we relate everything back to the Zidiot case. I guess this killer turned himself in the next day so the case doesn’t seem as outrageous as GZ. How convenient that he happened to have a gun when he felt he was going to be shot. That is one similarity between the two cases. Armed white man threatened by unarmed teenager. In both cases the shooter initiated engagement.

  2. ada4750 says:


    776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
    (1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
    (2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
    (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
    (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.


    If Rachel spoke the truth maybe (i am not a lawyer) (1) applies. Let say it doesn’t. Then 2(a) doesn’t apply according to GZ’s minor injuries and my previous comment. But maybe 2(b) does. Notice that 2(a) and (b) are negations of negation.

  3. ada4750 says:

    B37 makes us understand the terrible work of the prosecution to explain their view of the case. The proof is that B37 didn’t understand anything about the importance of Rachel Jeantel testimony.

    B37 basically says that Rachel corroborates the testimony of GZ. Unbelievable!!! By cons, she believed GZ when he says he was surprised by Trayvon. This is in flagrant contradiction with Rachel. But there is more.

    — Rachel says if true, then GZ lied on a crucial point and the jury should be very skeptical towards him.

    — If Rachel says the truth then GZ is the initial aggressor. This fact changes dramatically the psychological evaluation of imminent danger.

    Example: x and y do not know before they met.

    Scenario 1: x attacks y, y defends himself and x finds himself in a precarious situation.

    Scenario 2: y attacks x, and x finds himself in the same precarious situation.

    The psychological effect of the second scenario is much larger than in the first because x probably has no idea of ​​the motivation of y. While in the first, x knows that y only responded to his aggression.

    It is the same with Trayvon and GZ. If GZ pursued and reached Trayvon, his justification for self-defense is much less justifiable than if Trayvon did attack by surprise. That is why the testimony of Rachel was so important. O’Mara made a big deal about the psychological aspect.

  4. ada4750 says:

    Back on B37

    JUROR: I don’t think it’s really racial. I think it’s just everyday life, the type of life that they live, and how they’re living, in the environment that they’re living in.
    COOPER: So you didn’t find her credible as a witness?
    JUROR: No.

    MY COMMENT: She might not like the message so she rejects it pretending that she doesn’t like the messenger.

    COOPER: So did you find her testimony important in terms of what she actually said?
    JUROR: Well, I think the most important thing is the time that she was on the phone with Trayvon. So you basically, hopefully if she heard anything, she would say she did, but the time coincides with George’s statements and testimony of time limits and what had happened during that time.
    COOPER: Explain that?
    JUROR: Well, because there was a — George was on the 9-1-1 call while she was on the call with Trayvon, and the times coincide, and I think there was two minutes between when George hung up from his 9-1-1 call, to the time Trayvon and Rachel had hung up.

    So really nothing could have happened because the 9-1-1 call would have heard the nonemergency call that George had called, heard something happening before that.

    MY COMMENT: Do you understand anything? Cooper did not understand and I don’t either. We’re talking about one of the most important aspects of the trial and she goes completely beside.

    COOPER: George Zimmerman obviously did not testify, but his testimony essentially was brought into the trial through those videotapes, a number of videotapes. He walked police through a re-enactment of what he said happened. How important were those videotapes to you?

    JUROR: I don’t really know, because I mean, watching the tapes, there’s always something in the back saying, is it right? Is it consistent? But with all the evidence of the phone calls, and all the witnesses that he saw, I think George was pretty consistent and told the truth, basically. I’m sure there were some fabrications, enhancements, but I think pretty much it happened the way George said it happened.

    MY COMMENT: Sure, GEORGE(!) fabricated parts and enhanced others but it doesn’t matter. I believe him. Videotapes? Bah … who cares.

    COOPER: Do you think Trayvon Martin threw the first punch?
    JUROR: I think he did.
    COOPER: What makes you think that?
    JUROR: Because of the evidence of on the T, on the sidewalk, where George says he was punched, there was evidence of his flashlight and keys there, and then a little bit further down, there was a flashlight that he was carrying. And I think that’s where Trayvon hit him.

    MY COMMENT: No comment!!!

    COOPER: Did you feel like you understood the instructions from the judge? Because they were very complex. I mean, reading them, they were tough to follow.

    JUROR: Right. And that was our problem. I mean, it was just so confusing what — with what and what we could apply to what. Because I mean, there was a couple of them in there that wanted to find him guilty of something. And after hours and hours and hours of deliberating over the law and reading it over and over and over again, we decided there’s just no way — other place to go.

    MY COMMENT: We didn’t understand anything then not guilty.

    COOPER: So whether it was George Zimmerman getting out of the vehicle, whether he was right to get out of the vehicle, whether he was a wannabe cop, whether he was overeager, none of that in the final analysis, mattered. What mattered was those seconds before the shot went off, did George Zimmerman fear for his life?
    JUROR: Exactly. That’s exactly what happened.

    MY COMMENT: No comment other that after 16 months of passionate debates and 3 weeks of trial, the case rested in this empty shell.

    • jodiwankanobi says:

      what on earth was she blabbering about with the 911 call should be able to hear georges non emergency call for…..was she at the same trial….maybe jurors should be subject to an IQ test. smh!!

  5. Shari/human being with no nation says:

    Sanford.Florida@usdoj.gov Contact them. Maybe it’s a bunch of lip service. At least it’s a productive way to channel the grief. All of the black men Fogen followed should contact.

  6. dianetrotter says:

    Could be wrong but I think there are racists who surf daily, 24/7, looking for places to post poison. Even on sites that post positive articles about the Martin/Fulton family, or any blessed thing having to do with race, and then they flood the comments with crap. It makes it look like theirs is the majority opinion.

  7. Johnnie says:

    Love me some Trent. Absolutely love him. I’m gonna miss his “George Zimmerman fans are fucking idiots.” Thanks for posting. Made by day.

  8. Woow! says:

    If George call 911 to report a suspicious looking black person what do you think the operator will do?

  9. Two sides to a story says:

    I just had this horrible thought. Is Fogen II overcharged with M1 ? I have no doubt he deserves it from what little I know about the death of Jordan, but is this another setup for failure? I don’t know if I can stand witnessing another trainwreck of a case.

  10. LiveByTheGulf says:

    Have we been tricked in another way – that the 911 calls could not be cleaned up. There is a FREE program called audacity that can remove the singer’s voice in audio files. Ambient noise can be removed. I cannot believe that police departments or the federal government don’t have more sophisticated programs to clean up audio.

  11. Nancy benefiel says:

    The kid who was this years valedictorian said he knew which kids to stay away from and Trayvon was not one of them. The one thing from Trayvon’s phone we never see is where he said what he really liked to do was to help people feel better about themselves. Those weren’t the words of a thug.

  12. LiveByTheGulf says:

    Before and during the fogen trial, the professor taught us legal terms, the process, rules of law. Perhaps it’s time for us to become aware of lawyer tricks to alter the verdict – and bring those tricks to the consciousness of the public. That gives the public an opportunity to cry FOWL earlier in the process – so trial lawyers know they aren’t going to get away with it.

    I venture to say that when a trick works, the trick will be used again. We need to know the tricks, how they game the system, and head them off at the pass. For example, if a witness is KEY like Rachel was, then it is good to encourage a key witness to get a lawyer to protect them attorney harrassment, bagering etc. Educate the key witness how to counter when the attorney asks questions that are leading, call for speculation etc.

    • LiveByTheGulf says:

      I remember one witness didn’t speak and looked (“glared”) at BDLR until BDLT objected.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I remember when W6 said “But, I thought I wasn’t supposed to speculate.” Only then did BLDR stand up and object.

    • Woow! says:

      No white jury in Florida will ever convict a white man for killing a black. All the what man has to say is he feared for his life.

      Michael Dunn will go free just as that CAC. We all know he is guilty but he killed a black and in the resident’s of FL eyes, the kid deserved it because he should have listened to the white man and turn his music down.

      I can’t believe the girl friend was worried about the dog.

  13. Leslie says:

    I love Trent..potty mouth and all, lol

    • Two sides to a story says:

      TRENT! I’m so glad he’s back. *Grins*

      He has a good point. Time to shun Fogen completely. Nothing worse for a narcissist than to have no attention whatsoever.

      • Leslie says:

        Amen to that Two Sides !

      • cielo62 says:

        Two Sides~ I was actually wondering: how do you think gz feels seeing that the whole WORLD hates him? Rallies and rallies of people hating on him, people boycotting his home state because of him, his name bantered about with as much scorn and hatred as praise. Do you think he feels anything? Or just that it’s his proper due?


        • Two sides to a story says:

          Truly, I don’t know, Cielo. His bro and MOM seem to have indicated in the past that Fogen doesn’t understand how people could not see his good intentions. I do think he thrives on attention and that he seeks it in negative ways, and that he’s also sneaky and smooth about it. He was probably reinforced negatively in his childhood. I’d sure like to know more about how he behaved behind closed doors as a child. I get the feeling that the family has closed rank and will never be honest about any dysfunction in Fogen or in their family in general.

        • Woow! says:

          He is too stupid to realize the world hates him.

    • Shari/human being with no nation says:

      1. I never debated the case with Zidiots I saw no need for it.

      2. Of course he can disengage from the issue. He isn’t in danger of being stalked, assaulted, and executed simply for walking.

      3. He did his best and contributed to trying to get justice.

      • cielo62 says:

        Shari~ I’m willing to bet that Trent, as an effeminate sounding man, DOES fear being stalked, brutally attacked and killed. Racists are almost always also homophobes, even if the person only “sounds” like he might be (I have no idea if Trent is gay or not. BUT his voice sounds effeminate and that alone, like being black, would be enough to get him killed.)


        • Shari/human being with no nation says:

          Yes he’s gay. Yes gay bashing occurs. If Fogen had executed and stalked a gay man he would not have gotten away with it. Gay is the new black now. In addition to being gay he is white and southern. They would then demote Fogen to “illegal” status and throw the book at him. Obama participated in the “It gets better” campaign where he officially supported gay teens who are bullied. On the issue of race he dares not get specific because he is afraid of right wingers. If I were him I would do what I want, the right wing opposes whatever he does.

          No way Fogen would get away with saying, “f—–g f–gs” I used to watch reality shows and Andy Cohen will banish housewives who utter gay slurs. Anonymous would help bring Fogen to justice and be active like they were in Stubenville. I noticed they were silent here, just a black child killed.

          • cielo62 says:

            Shari/ I agree that, as a lame duck president, Obama should do whatever the duck he wants. They hate him no matter what. Appeasement never works.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

  14. Woow! says:

    Yeah trying to make Sybrina and Tracy out to be bad parents was very shameful.

    Out here where I live these white kids need their a$$ beat with a spiked stick and so does their country ignorant parents.

    1. they are disrespectful to everyone especially teachers
    2. think they are thugs walking around with their pants hanging off their tales (ooh I hope you did not thing only black kids did that)
    3. heroin, meth, molly,and crack addicts from as young as 10 (google Plano, Allen, Flowermound, TX)
    4. driving $40,000 cars their parents bought them at 16 while drunk or high
    5. screwing like jack rabbits and performing fellatio in the 6th grade under bleachers or the parking lot or at home while mama is down stairs watching TV with her glass fo wine
    6. sexting
    7. wearing a full face of make-up in 2nd or 3rd grade because their white mama think it is cute and then wonder why the neighborhood pedo is fixated on her.
    8. buy their daughters 4, 5, and 6 inch stilettos that they can barley walk in and wear them to school looking like they are about to hope on the flag pool. ( did I mention they look really stupid sliding around because they can barley walk in those things)
    9. allow their daughters to start receiving male company as early as the 6th grade.
    10. Driving their daughters to visit boys or pick the boys up and bring them to their house for their daughter (I had to cuss one out when she asked if my son could come over and she would pick him up).
    11. Encourage and allow their daughters to date black boys (behind their husband backs) and when daddy finds out lie and file a police report and have the innocent kid get a record (very common in my part of Texas)
    12. The kids get the crack or heroin from mama and daddy private stash while they are off vacationing or visiting friends because mama and daddy left them home with the nanny.(oh did I mention all of these people live off trust funds)

    Black parents have a weed or alcohol problem with their kids but not to the point where they are young alcoholics mainly in urban or suburban areas. There are a few that might touch the hard stuff but not like the white kids. They screw around like little jack rabbits too but the difference is mama do not run and get abortions like our white counter parts.

    1. You do not see black parents on TV crying because their child hit or kicked them.
    2. You do not hear of black kids curing their parents.
    3. You do not hear black parents in the store begging their child to be good/quite or bribing them with a new toy or snack.
    4. You do not have black parents crying because their kid stole their car or credit cards or money out of their wallet.

    If a black child even thought about hitting a parent they would be picking their behinds up off the floor. If it is a single parent household, uncle Ray Ray, Jun Bug, and cousin Charles, uncle Ray and Charles good friend Mike will beat the hell out of them.

    Every race has problems that is common with their group. That does not mean they are bad parents. So for ‘some’ white people to always associate crime or badness with blacks is wrong… look at your own race.

    I (being very naive until my eyes was opened) did not know white people were such thieving criminals. They are professional shop lifters. Blacks have nothing on them when it comes to shoplifting. Whites tend to get away with it more b/c they are not watched. Blacks are watched like a hawk upon entry. I was in Wal-Mart one day and this white lady was putting steaks in this big purse she had. She moved on to the cold cut section, I next saw her in the under wear section putting panties and other items in that bag. She went in the back where they have the USB and other computer stuff. I was just floored when she pulled out pliers and cut the little wire and started putting stuff in that bag. She walked through the garden center and got in a car that pulled up and I was so shocked. Shocked because people saw her (employees) and did nothing. I have seen this too many times. I have seen them walk out with TV’s and nothing happened.

    One night on my way in there was a black girl and guy running full speed across the parking lot, food falling from out of their arms and under their shirts. Two Wal-Mart employees chasing them. My daughter and I were laughing b/c it looked funny and she asked me why were they chasing them and not the white people we always see stealing. I answered “because they are black”.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Good post, Woow!

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I spent some years working among the general public in transportation in a large SW city. It was my observation, in general, that white parents let their kids get away with stuff in public that they should have been disciplined for, Hispanics were even worse, and really let their kids run wild because they had such a soft spot in their heart for kids and often coddled them no matter what, but that black parents were very, very strict about being orderly and respectful to other people and especially to their elders. I NEVER saw a black mom let their kid get away with any nonsense in public.

      • cielo62 says:

        Two Sides~ I would amend your observation by saying its mostly Mexican parents who are lenient. My Colombian parents NEVER let me act up in public either.


        • Two sides to a story says:

          I was trying to be polite! Yes, in this case it would have been almost exclusively Mexican Americans. They love their kids dearly but don’t set as many boundaries – and again, this is a quick generalization and I’m not saying that the kids I saw were bad and that all parents were like that, but the kids were allowed a lot of leeway to be nuisances to other people as if all their cuteness excused it.

  15. KateW says:

    Rev Al Sharpton organizing rallies across the country this weekend.

    “People all across the country will gather to show that we are not having a two- or three-day anger fit. This is a social movement for justice,” Sharpton said as he announced the plan outside the Justice Department with several ministers.

  16. aussie says:


    That is where getting control of the system begins.

    Register to vote but don’t register for a party. That’s half the harassment gone, right there.

    Make sure to be registered, get the ID if needed etc in plenty of time. Organise to help those who need transport or finding the documents etc.

    Apply for mail voting, to avoid long queues in booths that will shut before you get there, or where you get told your area is somewhere else and it’s too late to get there.

    The local elections are more important than the State and Federal. It’s the LOCAL elected prosecutors, judges, chiefs of police, that cause the local grief.

    Find people to stand in opposition to the bad ones. Doesn’t matter they might not win. What matters is that the incumbents see a LOT of votes going against them, shake their confidence. And with mailed votes they will be less able to tell which areas the against-votes came from, so less able to retaliate. The candidates should be inclusive. Not standing for black rights or minority rights. Standing for EQUAL rights for ALL people….poor whites may not be as badly discriminated against as other minorities, but they are discriminated against.

    Ideally of course such positions should not be elected ones. Obviously they will work for the people who elected them. But getting them to give up comfortable positions is a very big ask, and anyone at State level who suggested changing this would get voted out themselves, so….

  17. KateW says:

    The judicial system, the jurors, SPD have sent a terrible message to the American people and have promoted fear and lawlessness.

  18. smokeegyrl says:

    I get where you are going with this but I disagree in most part as I have since the beginning of this case. I guess I see it differently. I have always have seen it as racial in the eyes of Fogen. I have also seen it in the eyes of others social media sites. For others that don’t believe that have turn a blind eye to it. But I do see where you want to help other cases such as the Dunn case or any other case that is going through the same as the Fogen case. I can’t turn my head away from Trayvon Martin in the process right yet. I made a solemn vow to my grandson and my family who are in this fight as well. I do believe in the Civil Rights case, as some of my family are members in the NAACP as I was years ago. Some are spewing doubts that this was not a motivated by race but we know the 2-3 weeks before he shot and kill Trayvon his 911 calls were about black males. I do appreciate that you are upset about the Not Guilty plea. For me, my upset goes deeper then that. It is not just about the Not Guilty plea. It’s about seeing my grandsons who are black and can’t walk by themselves in the streets while these laws are out there at certain times of the night with people who will use them to hunt these kids down, provoke them and use these laws to shoot to kill. The word on the street is the “Z Hunt”. I will stand behind the Civil Rights Movement and I will be one of the ones praying for the DOJ to do the right thing because I know if they do… It will start the domino effect for the rest of the cases. Elder has already made a statement that all SYG laws need to go. That is a start. I will stand in solidarity with Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin til the end. I made that promise and I will stick to it. My promise is my bond. I do appreciate this Blog, I honestly do. Professor, you have taught me some things and so have others. I am not saying that I will stop coming and posting… but i will humble myself a little bit. Just stand back and learn some. I need to start working on my health. I will stand behind Jordan. I don’t even now if September 23 will be the starting date of that trial since they can’t keep judges. The present judge has reclused herself. Have a blessed day.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Yes, I agree with you, smokeegryl, that we need to stay focused
      on the implications of the verdict in the z case:

      For me, my upset goes deeper then that. It is not just about the Not Guilty plea.

      It’s about seeing my grandsons who are black and can’t walk by themselves in the streets while these laws are out there at certain times of the night with people who will use them to hunt these kids down, provoke them and use these laws to shoot to kill.

      The word on the street is the “Z Hunt”.

    • Woow! says:

      In Texas the only choice you have on the ballot is republicans and libertarians. Democrats don’t stand a chance in the local elections here. The only choice you have is ignorant and crazy.

  19. silk says:

    then u have an all white jury , i read some where that 1 of the juriors stated that trayvon should had went home , lol , that it was trayvon fault for his death . now this is a woman on the the jury . she also stated that it was zimmerman sceaming. based on the photo shop images , that determine her decision . so natually u know that there was a tab of racism!

  20. riisey007 says:

    Yes!!!!! I want to know and I stated this the other day, why didn’t prosecution knowing Rachel has a serious underbite that requires surgery on the bones in her jaw which is most likely Orthognathic surgery to realign the jaw. She said the surgery would take a year to recover from. I realized what was going on once I was able to see her on Piers Morgan because I couldn’t see her that well in court well at least her mouth. As you look closely you can see all the hardware in her mouth, she has braces but she also has anchors of some kind. I imagine they are used to try and pull the jaw forward with braces. My son had speech issues and the orthodontist said that his jaw was not aligned but his was not as bad as Rachel’s is,her speech and pronunciation of words is really bad. My son couldn’t pronounce certain things and he would get upset and not want to repeat himself but he wore braces for a little over 2 years and he was better. His speech is recognizable with just small issues so we opted out of surgery. It is really sad that prosecution did not stand up and say your honor she has a medical condition. I just don’t get it and it makes me wonder….

    • fauxmccoy says:

      my brother has the same issue, but not as pronounced. when he was in the army, they said they could fix it for him, but it involved breaking his jaw, resetting it, wiring his mouth shut for some period of time. he chose not to go forward for obvious reasons.

      my elder daughter has the same jaw, but it can be corrected much easier if treatment is started early, which we’ll be doing any time now. while the bones are still growing, it’s a matter of serious hardware which forces the upper jaw outward and prevents the lower jaw from growing. i suspect that is what jeantel is going through now. at her age however, it may not be so successful, but i sure hope for the best.

  21. Two sides to a story says:

    I love all the passionate and wise comments today. For me, there is a time to be discouraged and disheartened, to sit back and lick my wounds and maybe even think about giving up. I’d be more positive if I could sleep regularly, but I still have the restlessness of a grieving heart.

    You all have so many wonderful ideas, but for me, it may be time to recharge my spiritual batteries in meditation and to examine the afflictive emotion in my own heart and all the mysteries of karmic interactions in this hardazz world. I seem to have some hardheaded need to understand, to stand under and make sense of nonsensical things.

    That doesn’t mean that I and others who feel like me won’t be back and feistier than ever once the grieving turns to resolve . . . perhaps I’ll bounce back with greater wisdom and with better tools in the arsenal for the next round in the fight against corruption and the appeal to a higher way of thinking.

    While I have Justice for Jordan in the back of my reeling mind and in my aching heart, I also don’t feel that Dunn has a leg to stand on and that he’s grasping at straws in trying to model himself after Fogen. But then I was so very, very wrong about Fogen’s jury and about the hold that SYG and self-defense law holds in the minds of a certain spectrum of Floridians, and I was so very, very wrong about the depth of cultural arrogance that taints the hearts of so many people in the South and across our nation.

    My goodness, what are we going to call Dunn? Fogen II?

    • SearchingMind says:

      Two Sides, of all the folks on this blog, you and Fauxy belong to the richest. You inborn diplomatic character, gentility, kind heartedness and natural oasis of wisdom have been of immense service to all of us. I have been around enough to know this to be true.

      • cielo62 says:

        Searching Minds~ And some of us are feisty firecrackers! LOL!


      • Two sides to a story says:

        You’re so kind and thank you for the uplifting thoughts. I often feel I’m a dreamer with no real practical skills to change anything. I’m very humbled by all the folks who have not only the ideals but the practical skills needed to make a difference!

    • cielo62 says:

      Two Sides~ How about DUNG?


  22. Woow! says:

    We need to be more diligent in the next election cycle and encourage people to vote. If you know someone that does not have a voter registration card or state issued ID, encourage them to go and get them now. Let us not wait until election time when the offices will be jam packed.

    The only way we are going to beat the crazy tea party types and the GOP is to stay organized and prepared. I am not rich but $20 is not going to break me. If you know someone that does not have an ID, pay for it if they can’t. We can talk a good game but until we act nothing will change.

    We already know what is in store for us come 2016 if we do not act now. Vote out the crazies to bring sanity back to government.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      i am baffled as to how florida tends to lean democratic in national elections, but that state and local offices are largely republican. i realize that like my own state of california, it’s a large state, but still, this confuses me.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Me too.

      • aussie says:

        Bet because not enough people vote in local elections. And maybe nobody stands against the incumbents, who seem unbeatable.

        Yet local is where the problems start. And local is where a few thousand votes can make a difference. In Los Angeles earlier this year only 23% eligible voters bothered to turn out.

        Don’t forget school boards, too, that it where kids start to be discriminated against.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          certainly voter turnout in this country is disgraceful, especially in non presidential elections. florida in particular makes minority voting a grueling process.

  23. silk says:

    yes it was a horrible way to die . but do any 1 feel that the feds will step in ?? i mean really, the way this case was handle . the way west carried on , like fool!! then u have omara parading around with false evidence. i dont blame the defense . it was the way the evidence was presented . BDLR was clearly to conservative . not to mention , jn , omg!!! letting the defense embarris the court of law with stupity . i beleave that jn nelson did not send a clear message to the jury when the question was ask about manslaughter. and trayvons time not being introduce was a horrible decision by the state . it was to easy to convict zimmmerman and thats y alot people are in great pain . the state threw the case in my opion.

    • Girlp says:

      IMO as long as the pressure is on they will investigate however because of the way the law is written it will be difficult as George learned a lesson when he harassed the Middle Eastern man, Georged learned how to be a bigot and get away with it. I am praying that they find something email, text or someone where he makes it explicit he killed Trayvon because he is Black…we know it we can see it but the legal definition of the 2009 law from what I understand is tough. I believe the law should be amended to deal with the reality of targeting someone because of their race, religion or sexual identity/orientation and add Trayvon’s names to the amendment. Afterall Zimmermans racist attitude toward young Black males is evident through inference, he didn’t just profile Trayvon he racially profiled Trayvon…there are studies available to prove that people do racially profile however getting rid of the biogted teapublicans would have to be achieved before any future civil rights legislation/(or updates to civil rights legislation) is made…we also have to deal with the SCOTUS idots not much we can do there.

      • Malisha says:

        But he did NOT kill Trayvon because he was Black;
        He killed Trayvon because he was not submissive enough!

  24. Boyd says:

    I did not know the law required you to believe lies. They admitted they believed Fogen lawyers 100%

  25. sparger says:

    I figure on day we will see a video of Fogen actually fighting at that gym. Then other stuff the loser has done will start to leak out. He will be abandoned by all those that are championing him now. He can’t keep his mouth shout. Any other defendant that talked as much as Fogen would be in jail. I am sure he will do an interview somewhere safe and still muck it up with more lies.

    • MDH says:

      I agree with the article, but think it can be taken farther.

      If an armed 158lbs Trayvon had gotten out of his car while being taped saying something that was under dispute as either “F’in cracker” or “F’in cook” and proceeded to get into a conflict with a 207lbs GZ who was recorded stating a creepy guy is following me wherein Trayvon’s defense was that he got me down and was pummeling me to the point wherein I had to shoot him then the following would have happened:

      Trayvon would have been charged with M1 in that his statement and the fact that he had a gun proved a premeditated intent to murder.

      GZ would have been seen as a hero who went down with a fight.

      The Stepford Wife jury that just decided the real GZ vs T case would have ruled guilty in the hypothetical situation after about 30 minute of deliberation.

      And it would have been F’in Cracker

      And they would have said it was silly and an insult to say that the heroic last screams of a dying man would be shouted by a man having a gun aimed right on target.

  26. fauxmccoy says:

    thank you, fred. as disheartened, discouraged and disappointed i am with the zimmerman verdict, the earth continues to rotate on its axis, time marches on and there are more battles to be fought. i am not implying that anyone cease doing whatever is in their power to continue fighting for justice for trayvon, but there are other looming issues as well.

    this upcoming case will be a good opportunity to further evaluate florida brand justice with enough similar conditions to provide an opportunity to do some serious comparisons. one major difference here is that the charge is M1 but the death penalty is not being sought. it is my understanding that a 12 member jury is only used on capital cases in florida and i can see how a 6 member jury benefits the defense. i’m wondering what will happen here. time to get up to speed, i reckon.

    in your ‘what went wrong’ thread, i was able to identify a number of systemic issues within florida legislature, judicial and LE sectors. these too must be examined because they had direct impact on the verdict.

    as the saying goes ‘the struggle continues’. we cannot afford to remain so focused on the zimmerman verdict that we fail to address other injustices. the dunn case has significantly better direct evidence and does not rely as heavily on circumstantial as did zimmerman’s. i’m hoping florida gets it right this time for the parents of jordan davis and the country as a whole, but hope is waning.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      You have such a wonderful, practical mind!

      • fauxmccoy says:

        well thanks — more likely, it is a constant mental repetition of the serenity prayer. it’s what has gotten me through more life threatening situations than i care to think about. ‘grant me the serenity to accept the things i cannot change, the courage to change the things i can, and the wisdom to know the different’. i just used more words in my comment above.

        • Deborah Moore says:

          Well, good morning, Ms. FauxyLady.
          Nice to see more positive comments from you and others.
          As I’ve said, we cannot allow anger, disappointment and depression to blind us to the Truth and to the Future.
          Thank you.
          Our lives are what we make of them. And, we choose to either submit to or overcome the obstacles.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          Ah, but more than that – you have a keen analytical mind – good with law and practical things that boggle mine.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            i was indoctrinated at a young age by a CPA father with dual degrees in law and accounting. was studying for the LSATs myself when diagnosed with my first bought with cancer which forever changed my life and career path. again, thanks. there’s a reason i am here.

          • cielo62 says:

            faux mccoy~ to make us all smile, by little pooper orifice?


          • fauxmccoy says:

            oh yes, dahlink!

    • cielo62 says:

      faux mccoy~ So… where are the evidence dumps? Time to roll up the sleeves…


      • fauxmccoy says:

        i have had a much more difficult time finding that, cielo. i know that xena has a fair amount of info though, so i am hoping for her guidance.

  27. sadlyyes says:

    i CANT stop thinking of the WAY Trayvon died….oh mercy,that child was PLEADING for his life to blackeye/black heart CAC…lord deliver me from the vivid pictures

  28. Drew says:

    To me The most sickening thing about the GZ case and the responses to it in the media is not that a killer got off or that the prosecution bungled it or that there was a stealth juror or that the system is rigged due to institutional used racism or that racists painted TM as a menacing black thug.

    To me the worst part of the trial is that GZ *admitted* killing TM – there was nothing to prove – yet most people, even the liberal-minded, bend over backward to justify why this was ok.

    Some friends have likened this to the OJ trial – an open and shut case that was screwed up by lack of evidence. But with GZ you don’t have a guy / defense saying “I didn’t do it” – you have a guy / defense saying, “I did it and I’d do it again – cuz Black Thugz.”

    • Rachael says:

      The public comments, the thuggification, his parents – all totally sickening. And I don’t understand, I just don’t.

      • Beverly says:

        I think his parents are clueless; I do not mean that as an excuse. Zimm apparently is low functioning, probably low IQ, no academic or vocational success; so unrealistic now he wants to be a lawyer. Father used to privilege and success. Looks to me that they either have not accepted the situation or really do not know what to do. And here he has escaped again. But they know he is limited and troubled. How long til he is divorced?

        • cielo62 says:

          Beverly~ Exactly. gz has been a loser ALL of his life because NOBODY 1.was honest enough to see his very true and physical shortcomings and 2. he was never held accountable for his crimes. I predict a divorce very soon; within the year. This is year 5 for them which is a common breaking point in many marriages. Food stamps and a trailer for gz inside of 6 months or so.


          • Malisha says:

            She’ll stay with Fogen; they DO have money now. It is hidden, like the jury. They’ll get plenty more of it, too. Remember, “If you would do what George did, send money.” All the kill-a-black-wannabes are thrilled down to their little (I do mean little) genitals.

          • cielo62 says:

            Malisha~ But the trial is over, the danger is past. gz is on his own. And he will get nowhere fast.


  29. riisey007 says:

    The remaining jurors sent out a statement because they didn’t want to look prejudiced but it still doesn’t matter we all know that juror B-35 was the ring leader and they all followed if not was already on board with her. The token unclassified black, Hispanic, or whatever doesn’t even count. This juror wanted to get this out there so that she could start on that book and capitalize off of Martins death. Anderson said that the interview was not suppose to be an interview that they were just suppose to meet but then she agreed to an interview and they did kind of a rush interview. I am sure she was paid for it, because CNN was wanting to be the first to interview one of the jurors. She most likely made contact with them. No matter what she knew what she was doing so it can’t taken back. She did not help calm people she helped infuriated people more. before she spoke people were blaming prosecution but even then they were trying to deal with it but now…..

    • Oscar Terry says:

      Thankfully the book will not happen since the public outcry squashed it for now, the remaining Jurors can distance themselves from her all they want, the verdict was a joint effort and also cannot be taken back…just such a sham, a woman gets 20 years just for firing a gun in the air to scare someone who admits that he was going to beat her and in 12 minutes….but the shooter of a teenager is free because he claims he was the victim, just sickening. I am not surprised that black people and black parents in Florida are scared, they have every right

    • KateW says:

      Indeed! She incited a furor when she did this interview. I was already saying that was a shameful verdict, but after listening to some of it, my reaction was justified. My facebook exploded, imploded and flipped upside down during and after her interview. lol She confirmed everyone’s worst suspicion and that was supporters infiltrated the jury.

      What also got people up in arms is the fact that she was trying to capitalize on this boy’s death. She cared nothing about justice, she just wanted to capitalize and get home.

      She is still an unscrupulous individual in my eyes!

  30. riisey007 says:

    We all know that the jurors had preconceived notion going in, so with that being said, this trial was already rigged but had the prosecution did better with those hostile witnesses it would have put those jurors in a position of even though they are most likely in cahoots with the defense or some how another the B-37 juror husband gave her advice, but however it went. If the evidence, witnesses,and experts were questioned the way they should have been then there is no way that he would not be charged without raising a lot of suspicion in the legal system, as it stands now. Most of the legal heads are saying that prosecution did not prove their case. They knew going in that the SPD damaged evidence and did not do a thorough job of collecting the evidence so they were going to have to come out blazing.

    They also said with Zimmerman having those injuries they should have went in saying that Martin was defending himself and had a right to hit Zimmerman but instead they were trying to say Martin was on bottom then change it to him being on top pulling away. Mark Garagos no matter how you see him, he makes a valid point, he was the first to say that Zimmerman will be found not guilty based on the jury and everybody had a fit. I have look at Garagos client list, he has a lot of high profile clients and some of them are quite shady, he is no fool. He broke down how to pick a jury last night and he called Angela out on the jury selection that was chosen, he told her that he was not ” Monday morning quarter backing” her because he said he has been very verbal about that jury and he told her she had no business letting this jury be in this case. He also said that he sees the system day in and day out and that African Americans are treated unjust in the system and that we do more time than non African Americans. He also told the panel that there is a particular thinking among-st jury’s and bring 5 white women and an unspecified race into the jury does not help anyone but the defense. He said had it been more of a mixture of races and the verdict was not guilty then people would be hurt but they would not be as angry as they are now and they have a right to be angry. He said that these women could not relate to Trayvon Martin and the interview of the juror showed it. They even noticed what we all noticed, how she was all bubbly over George, calling him Georgie. I have to agree with Mark Garagos. If they were gonna try a case like this then they should have put themselves in a position to win.

    • Beverly says:

      Georgie, Like he’s the dough boy. Makes me sick. Sounds like they thought the jury was “playing house.” Really sad and tragic; I wonder if some of the other jurors will out her in some way.

    • KateW says:

      That is what I keep saying, it did not matter how well the prosecution did. You have 3 jurors that look to me to have been reviewing all the information and decided on manslaughter and murder 2, but then you have jurors like B37 who obviously did not look at any of the evidence and during her interview it was as if she were reading from the OMara cheat sheet. Same type of answers and conclusions. SHE ALSO SAID RACHEL JEANTEL AND MARTIN WERE THE RACIST ONES. Where did that come from?? Certainly not the evidence. That came straight out of Soft Serves mouth. She also admitted she didn’t think the word “cracka” was racist but yet she called Rachel and Martin racist. I do believe someone had said she claimed the NEN operator “egged” the killer on. I didn’t hear because I did not watch the full interview, but if she did say that, did she listen to the NEN calls? She had already made up her mind prior to coming to court.

      She also verified someone was sending out information to his supporters. How else would racist Frank Taffe and goons know there was 1 hold out.

      • riisey007 says:

        Kate W, yes she did say the NEN egged Zimmerman, umm..humm George on. I was like WHAT!? HLN talked about that too. She did verify with her words that Taffe knew all the time and when he could not keep his big mouth closed they threw him out the courtroom and off the grounds. This is why he was so confident during the whole trial. Also Zimmerman and family did not react to the verdict, they knew what it was going to be before it was called out and O’mara and crew told them to look a certain way in order to fool us. It was funny last night,I forget the black guys name he has a radio talk show, etc. He told Taffe to stop auditioning for FOX news, he was right Taffe will be on Fox. Taffe helped kill Trayvon I am willing to bet it all on that!!
        Juror 37 is trash

  31. My Forehead Tho says:

    If Jordan Davis’ murderer is allowed to walk free, then Florida is sending a clear message to every black resident there, very much like L.A did with Latasha Harlins and Rodney King.

    • riisey007 says:

      Yes, and the Rodney King verdict was horrible when it was caught on video for goodness sake.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      The most egregious possible murderer is already walking free, a guy who stalked and killed a kid who ran away from him and was recorded by 911 begging for his life. The clear message is out already.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        It is only a little bit blurry concerning kids of other skin tones; Florida defends being allowed to shoot at will.

  32. colin black says:

    Ive said this b4 an I say it again

    American jurour system with nullification experts to choose voire dire ect.

    Is unjust an a crap shoot

    Guily people can walk if the wrong type of jurours are sat.

    Jurours should be under cctv at all time dureing disscusions on verdics question ect

    An as soon as they disregard there sacred vow to uphold the law

    Whats the point of law school an judges laws statutes

    If at the end of the day you hand the fate of both the accussed an defendands family over to bunch of raceist screeching opinionated no mark never been uneducated in the law strangers dragged out of the phone book or voters poll?

  33. KateW says:

    If the DOJ does not act, if nothing is done, and the African American community in Florida is already feeling boxed in, as if this case gave Caucasians the right to shoot unarmed African Americans as they please, then we are going to have a serious problem. Like I said I don’t condone violence but what is the alternative for people that fear they are targets. We are talking about serious problems.

    • MichelleO says:

      THIS is exactly the plan. People know it. People feel it. How not to give in to it, because then we will witness a true bloodbath in America. Most of America’s local police now has SWAT teams attached to it. When SWAT comes in, animals are immediately executed, and even the old and infirm are roughed up and thrown onto the ground by several team members.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        And, hate groups and militias have been on the increase.

      • KateW says:

        But then what do people do? Stand by and allow themselves to be slaughtered? How many more mothers and fathers have to grieve for their dead children. How many more families have to suffer as their killers go unpunished. We have seen the statistics. People are posting them here daily, and the statistics show that there is racial bias in prosecuting perpetrators where the victims are African American.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      As far as the AA community feeling boxed in, what edruminations posted about that last night.

      I am bringing this here because I don’t want anybody to miss reading about the conditions in Central Florida that edruminations describes.

      edruminations says:
      July 16, 2013 at 8:11 pm

      Also, there is now a climate of fear for all of us here in central FL…that anybody can devise a situation to support SYG for the lone surviving witness.

      People are afraid to speak out. Afraid to protest. Racists are looking for any excuse to evoke SYG. They have a racist law to protect them, set up by a racist state, enforced by racist police.

      None of us are safe. Any crazy, drunk lunatic can get away with this. Especially if he’s at all friendly with the local police.

    • Woow! says:

      Black people will not sit idle and become targets for bigots. They will fight back.

      I do not advocate violence but would like to say….. do white people really think they can continue to use SYG as a get out of jail free card to kill a black person? Blacks will start shooting back.

      People are not going to start getting their own justice if legal justice continue to fail them. Remember, the law did not protect blacks so the BBP was organized to help protect its people back in the day.

      Have they not learned anything from history? History will not repeat itself because humanity will not allow it. There are for more compassionate people than 50 years ago

      • cielo62 says:

        Woow!~ Alas, violence of all kinds is all around us. Stripping voters of voting rights unless you have a picture ID. Outlawing LEGAL abortions. Denying health care for millions in the state of Texas. Making getting food stamps almost impossible, PLUS getting drug tested on top of it. Cutting education to the point of ineffectualness. I totally blame the GOP and the hardline Tea Party within it. They are working hard to disenfranchise millions in order to maintain a slave class of citizen. A revolution is brewing. It might not come to fruition in my lifetime, but it is fermenting and gaining strength.


      • Deborah Moore says:

        It’s been my experience that history does and will repeat itself until people study the underlying reasons for behavior that is detrimental to not only our survival, but also our evolving.
        It can be depressing to see so many folks giving in to their anger and depression.

    • Jasmine says:

      I was thinking the same thing. I don’t live in Florida but I can just imagine the horror of feeling like you can’t be out at certain times.It is bad enough being followed around in the store as I have been. But imagining being followed around while walking outside is just terrifying. I get annoyed when I am followed in the store, not terrified or scared, just downright annoyed. I deal with it but the thought of someone being able to walk up to you and question you and if you blow them off or try to get away a confrontation will start and you could get killed. It is enough to give people agoraphobia.

    • cielo62 says:

      KateW~ Any cornered animal will fight. Any people who feel cornered and without options will fight. It is a survival instinct to fight. yes, you are right. This verdict will push many into a corner and they will fight. And I will NOT blame them at all.


    • Malisha says:

      I agree with you. It’s obvious.

  34. Girlp says:

    Is anyone familiar with Constitutional Law? Does SYG violate a part or multiple parts of the constitution? I get the feeling it does, seems to me Trayvon was trying to get away he ran. Jordan was sitting in a car no weapon (again) and there was no threat to the murderer, does this man get to say I feel I was in danger because I “THOUGHT” I saw a gun and goes free. I am hearing the supremacist are at it again demonizing the driver of the van.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      if the DOJ can prove that the law is applied differently to people according to race (and stats do demonstrate just that) there is the possibility of federal action.

      • Girlp says:

        According to the stats in Florida it is applied according to race, Florida ignored it.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          yes, girlp, i believe i stated that is what stats indicate. florida will of course ignore it because it suits their purposes, that is why the situation needs to be evaluated by higher authority, as in the US vs. state of florida to get discriminatory laws off the books.

      • This seems to be the correct legal approach. SYG is supposedly based on fear. If people believe certain groups are inherently scary than it is unconstitutional.

    • Malisha says:

      I believe it is thoroughly unconstitutional for two reasons:

      1. Unconstitutionally vague; and
      2. It prevents civil remedies after a brief criminal proceeding at which only one judge “calls” it. Thus, one corrupt judge, no jury, and you could get rid of not only all CRIMINAL responsibility but all CIVIL responsibility for ANY CRIME including Murder I! Think of it. You’ve got a little county like, say, Otero County, New Mexico. You’ve got a murder-I case and a woman says she killed in self-defense. The victim was a man 2″ taller than her and 24 pounds heavier. The defendant claims he came up her walk while she was gardening, and he said, “I’m either gonna get some or I’m gonna kill you,” whereupon she stood up and blew him away with one shot of a hollowpoint bullet to his chest. Nobody saw it.

      OK. This woman goes in front of Judge W. W. Alamogordo and she cries and her lawyer says, “she was in fear for her life.” The judge says, “Oh poor little thing!” and rules it SYG.

      The victim’s family knew him and knew her and they said she had been asking him to come to her house that day to do some gardening for her. They say he was never violent and did not want sex from her. They want to sue her for wrongful death; that would be a jury trial and her homeowner’s insurance would cover HER lawyer and THEIR lawyer would work on a contingency. But they can’t sue. They can’t because one judge (who kinda liked her looks) decided there was no case.

      Constitutional? HOW? ONE TEST CASE NEEDS TO TAKE SYG up and gut it.

  35. LiveByTheGulf says:

    Another thing that really bothered me during the trial was the lawyers’ control of witness testimony. When I watched Rachel’s testimony, West was doing his best to get the words and impressions WEST wanted to project to the jury. When Piers Morgan interviewed Rachel, Rachel was able to get out the true picture in a short time frame.

    It also bothered me that the prosecution left the witnesses high-and-dry to be grilled without objection. There was a lot of opportunity to object on “speculation”, “not the expert witnesses area of expertise” etc.

    • riisey007 says:

      Yes, that is why Garagos said they sat on their hands with Rachel when West had gone too far, he felt that if they were gonna use Rachel as the focus of the trial they should have prepped her better. Rachel was very upset because until her interview I did not know that Rachel had been badgered in the form of depositions by West since March of last year and she finally stopped meeting with him. So really her bad treatment of her began a year ago and not on the stand. Anyone would have an attitude.

      • LiveByTheGulf says:

        Could Rachel’s lawyer have assisted her during depositions? (assuming Rachel could have had a lawyer at that time).

        • fauxmccoy says:

          her lawyer came in rather late in the game i think. he attended her church and another parishioner suggested he get involved, but i’m not sure he was on it at the time of the depositions.

          • SearchingMind says:

            Fauxy, I think Prosecutors were very, very nice to Don West and disturbingly slow in realizing that West intended mischief and has complete contempt for the law and the rules of professional conduct. If I were Bernie, I would have eating West alive. Very long sharp claws do come out when vulnerable clients and/or witnesses come under attack. There is absolutely no way I would have allowed a deposition of Dee Dee and Trayvon’s parents to last for more than two hours. Even Dee Dee’s current lawyer is being nice to West. I watched him on CNN and had the feeling that he is very reluctant to take the war to West. Again, if I were him I would have mounted and continue to mount an unrelenting, sustained attack on Don West and called him out for the mediocre he is. To get the ikes of West to submit, you have to figuratively speaking poke your fingers into their eyes – in the most subtle but hurtful manner.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            if i were to start to describe the disgust i have for west, i do not know that i could stop.

        • KateW says:

          Yes, that was a travesty there! The beating Rachel Jeantel took in court was reprehensible and the fact that the prosecution sat there like logs really made me question at times their desire to truly prosecute this case. She should have had a lawyer from the get go, someone should have stepped in for her and the prosecution and Benjamin Crump and Company should have advocated that she get one before she testify! It was an all out assault on that woman and the courts allowed it to happen.

          But like I keep saying…it didn’t matter how well they did in court, this supporters had already infiltrated the jury. 2 for manslaughter and 1 for murder 2 were not strong enough to stand up against them and I believe they caved.

      • Valerie says:

        You are correct regarding West and Rachael…that is what is so conflicted about this trial. Everyone who has followed this case CLOSELY knew why Rachael was behaving the way she was. People who tuned in at the time of the trial did not understand.

      • Beverly says:

        I did not know that and his abuse is all the worse b/c he knew she had whatever difficulty with language and responding; he worked to bully and humiliate her and put his daughters in a supporting role. I have somewhat explained some of his limits b/c I also think he is ill; but none of that stuff, apparently with Os blessing, should have been allowed. West was a Mean Bully. No chance he gets it b/c he also kept bullying the Judge.

  36. Sophia33 says:

    When does that trial start?

    • September 23, 2013 in Jacksonville, Fl

      • fauxmccoy says:

        with the ever so handsome john guy prosecuting 😉

        • jodiwankanobi says:

          hubba hubba

          • fauxmccoy says:

            watching his face while waiting for the verdict was enlightening, you could tell how much it really mattered to him. throughout the trial, he was buried in paperwork and computer monitors. with that stuff out of the way, all you could see was his emotions, plain as day on his face.

          • fauxy i missed the verdict so i didn’t get to see it all play out…..i sat up all night every night and on the crucial day i was out with my kids buying shoes…turned on the computer and nearly had kittens…i haven’t gone back to watch it, i don’t know if i can. I’m sure they were all gutted.

  37. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    The NAACP needs to continue to pressure the DOJ. Absolutely!

    However, in these times, this action is NOT enough.

    The cause has to be taken to an organized GRASSROOTS level where individual citizens will have the power to make a difference and push the agenda unceasingly. The conditions that exist today are dire for AA youth as nationally spotlighted by this Zimmerman case.

    What will a grassroots mobilization involve as far as organizing? What power does each individual have? What effective pressure tactics are available?

    These questions must be CAREFULLY answered and plans put into place QUICKLY…..definitely before the new school year begins with college students returning to campuses and PTA and other parent groups returning to their children’s schools; before the mid year campaigning begins; before teacher unions return to begin setting their agenda for the school year.

    Grassroots groups will be able to EMPOWER their local community citizens by informing them of the ways that they can take action that WILL make a difference.

    When college students return to campus, tables need to be set up to recruit students to the grassroots-action group on those campuses ; leaflets have to available at those tables that speak to this very important issue; speakers need to be lined up NOW so that a schedule of their speeches with time and place can be available at those tables; a rally and demonstration schedule for the Fall needs to be figured out NOW so that those schedules, also, can be available at that table.

    Leaflets and speaker schedules need to be worked out NOW in order to be available to PTA’s around the country so that they can be handed out to parents on the first day of school. PTA’s need to empower parents by informing them of ways they can make a difference in their communities through specific action.

    These grassroots groups need to call on trained professionals in communications, human resources, and public relations to provide them with the training that they need.

    [We could even start brainstorming about identifying what should be in those leaflets and pass it on to those who need them. For sure we have the talent here by what I have surmised from some of your professions.]

    There should be a demand for community stores and businesses to provide a place to post signs of support and also tables in front of their stores so that people can pass out leaflets. And, of course, volunteers can walk the community and pass out leaflets. The climate is such now that people will be glad to sign up as volunteers. Messages that are appearing on protest signs presently need to be put into the permanent form of leaflets, flyers, and handbills.

    There need to be WATCH DOG groups in every section of every community that report racial profiling and harassing incidents to mayors, assemblymen/women, and state representatives, and then these WATCH DOG groups need to put continuous pressure on these elected officials to take action.

    One word: LOCAL

    Citizens at the LOCAL grassroots level have the power to bring about CHANGE within their communities. Elected officials at the community level cannot hide from their citizens and their citizen’s demands.

    National groups like the NAACP and local, grassroots groups…… acting simultaneously….. MOVE mountains!

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I realize that community organizers already are on the scene across America. However, this cause must be taken to another, greater level.

    • cielo62 says:

      YAHTC~ Yes, LOCALLY is what I believe is the key. I personally am not a leader type. I’m not very organized. But I will put myself to service when a group shows up here. The trick then becomes finding out about it. I don’t Twitter or attend a church, so I’m wondering how to find these grassroots activities.


      • KateW says:

        I don’t Twitter or attend church either. But I am very active online and in my community with other projects. I also get involved with the Innocence Project. Grassroots is great but that is not going to change the system. People need to be voted out and the Federal govt has to get involved.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I know, I don’t have the leadership skill that my mother had. She was a president of many community organizations while I was growing up in California.

        And, yet, cielo, you and I both know exactly what is needed. We CAN make a big contribution by providing those people who are leaders with the “what needs to be done” stuff.

        Cielo, have you considered just inviting two or three of your friends over for coffee just to brainstorm? I bet you might come up with such ideas as contacting the local
        NAACP nearest you or contacting a community leader for assistance.

        First, be sure that the friends you invite over are like-minded.

        I have seven really close, dear friends. One of them, however, surprised me in the 2008 election year.When I was talking about Obama and how much I wanted to see him elected, her first response was to tell me about being afraid of two black men at a subway stop at night where she had gotten off mistakenly!! You can not imagine my shock and disappointment.

        The good thing is that is friend is willing to take “little bites” of my influence at a time. She has a gentle, good heart, but has never lived outside of her various white communities over her life time…knowing nothing first hand of the AA community.
        All she knows is supplied by the news she watches.

        Unfortunately, I live now in a place with little or no diversity = white. When my husband and I moved here after getting married, I was so excited because I have always been a nature girl, and our new home was going to be in an area with great access to all types of rivers, trees, some wildlife, ponds, etc. What a dream place!

        I miss the diversity I experienced in California. (We made a point of sending our son to a private high school with students of diverse backgrounds.)

        But, you know, I and my 6 other friends are needed in communities like this because over the years we have influenced the many people we have come in contact with. White communities would not grow if there were not people like us.

        But, don’t get me wrong…..it is going to take years to bring white America up to speed with getting it to acknowledge its unjust, white privilege power.

        • cielo62 says:

          YAHTC~ My friends are already like minded. Others are merely coworkers or acquaintances. I will put more effort on my school campus for understanding diversity. It fits in well with our anti-bullying message.


  38. Judy75201 says:

    I won’t be leaving this site any time soon. I am spending a lot of time on Twitter right now in the evening because I want the world to know just how furious I am about this despicable verdict, the reprehensible fogen & his family, and the horror of B37’s attitude. During the day, I try to glimpse HERE and read what I can while at work.

    Thank you, Fred and Crane-Station.

  39. MDH says:

    So Dunn’s attorney feels that firing eight rounds into a car parked in a gas station parking lot with customers going in and out because of the mere thought of a gun being pointed at him is safe and responsible?

    One time, when I was a child, our neighbor got taken away because he got a gun out of the trunk of his car and started shooting at planes that he thought were attacking him. He had been a child during the Red vs. White Russian conflict after WW1 and he had some sort of PTSD event.

    My point is that he was taken away because shooting at things imagined, but not an actual clear and present danger, makes the shooter a menace to society in that innocent lives are put in danger.

  40. Wanna says:

    What should we do now, as individuals sitting sitting in front of our computers? I know that is a dumb question but break it down to the basics. I mean beyond signing the petitions. Thank you and Crane for your leadership.

    • SearchingMind says:

      You are already doing very well by being here. Little, little things matter a lot and can make a difference in a case such as this. Signing petitions is an excellent example. Those petitions will force the federal governments hands (if they have not already started strategizing and drafting indictment based on hate crimes). Participating in forums (and peaceful protests) to make you views known will help in invalidating both the jury and GZ in the consciousness of the people. The damage caused by the racist jury is tremendous and will take a while to be repaired. Rome, after all, was not built in a day.

  41. riisey007 says:

    Good morning everyone, We must put the same passion into Jordan’s case that we have in Trayvon Martins. This is truly sad that another 17 year old in the same year months later was killed and that killer is claiming SYG. This kid was in the back of the SUV that his killer shot into but he was the only one who died. The killers family has already started defending just like the Zimmermans did with their saying how kind and loving the killer is. Many racist site have already started defaming the kid. They are saying that the kids had guns, they all have criminals records, etc. This is what people like that do, and even though this man walked to his car and came back and shot and killed this kid they still want to side with the killer. These people want our children dead, or people in general.

    We need to be wise, we need to stand up and we need to be outraged over every killing/attack on our children and on our race. I do hope that those AA that shoot each other and kill each other come to realize that racist think it is ok because we are killing each other everyday. That is the biggest argument to date and this is why Zimmerman was freed and if anyone else thinks that is not the case then perhaps you should soul search. Why send Zimmerman to prison when Martin was going to eventually lose his life to another AA in the future. That’s how they really feel. I am so tired of all of it. Not all AA are alike, we don’t all live like violent thugs but to racist we are all alike and we all steal, kill, rape, welfare driven, etc. They don’t bother to know any of us they have labelled us and they have been able to sway many people to their side. I have been watching CNN, HLN. I have enjoyed the panels actually getting together and talking about race in America.

    I have noticed in watching the debates and discussions that we skate around black on black crime. It is a heavy occurrence and it is happening on a daily basis, this type of violence against each other is what has de-valued or race the most. We stop fighting the man for equal rights and started fighting each other. Martin Luther King was a great man and he along with many other civil rights activist helped move us forward. Brought us in through the front door instead of the back. We owe it to them to do better. I have enjoyed this blog, it has been really great. I think you all are great. I am looking forward to going through the trial of young Jordan with you all as well. Can any of you tell me where I can find any of the evidence made public in this case. I do not know a definite date of trial but I know it will be in a couple of months.

  42. SearchingMind says:

    Prosecution for hate crime is viable

    Thanks Professor and ALL for your steadfastness and indefatigable zeal in the quest for justice. I am still recovering from the shock sustained from the acquittal of George Michael Zimmerman for the murder of an wholly innocent, unarmed juvenile, Trayvon Benjamin Martin. I am not yet fully recovered and have as such buried myself in my work and stayed away from commenting or reading anything concerning this case. I did not know how emotionally involved I was until the not guilty verdict was pronounce. It felt like a bullet straight through the heart. Though I saw that bullet coming, the impact came as a surprise. I started getting tremblings of illness in my stomach when the ME could not defend HIS OWN autopsy report and the trajectory of the bullet, i.e. direct, front to back, without angle(s), and interpret it accordingly. I started to feel actual illness in my stomach from the moment the prosecution started stating that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman and was retreating/”backing away” (!!?) when the fatal shot was fired! My ears went deaf in astonishment. I thought then that that was “a game changer”, because, at the very least, it transforms GZ’s story into a (possible) plausible, alternative reading of the evidence, IMO. Additionally, one could also argue that Zimmerman – assuming Trayvon “was on top of him but started backing away” – would not have been able to read Trayvon’s action as “backing away” from a fight he was dominating from a superior position). Bernie started practicing law when was still a toddler, but I can’t forgive him for the folly of that strange argument that Trayvon was on top but was backing away when he was shot. That argument is not consistent with the evidence and couldn’t get any more imbecilic. I felt absolutely seriously ill when Judge Nelson, upon Mantei’s request, REFUSED to include in the jury instruction that the aggressor may not claim self-defense. I thought then that the case was lost even before it went to the jury, but continued to hope that the all-women jurors know the truth in their hearts and will come to the aid of a dead kid.

    How badly mistaken I was, for, even in the absence of the above few but fateful mistakes, the jury would have acquitted Zimmerman of all crimes. I say this because before the trial started, at least half of the jury was hell-bent on acquittal – at all cost! The not guilty verdict was not based on what Bernie did or did not do right. Juror B37 made that clear. The deed is done. Now what? What are the effective remedies, if any, to what amounts to a monumental national shame and disgrace?

    Ordinary citizens and organizations are rightly pressing for the indictment of GZ under the federal hate crime law. Petitions to this affect have garnered over a million signatures. I most humbly support the efforts of the Professor and ALL OF YOU here in this regard. I vehemently disagree with “legal experts” who argue that indictment under the federal hate crime law is not viable/feasible. In fact, there is a good and solid hate crime case to be made against Zimmerman.

    From the defense we will definitely hear that race was not a factor in the equation of Trayvon’s death; that even if race were a factor in Zimmerman identifying Trayvon as a (possible) criminal, watching him, following him in a truck, then chasing him on foot, and lastly confronting him, Zimmerman did not shoot Trayvon because of his race but in self-defense; that even in the absence of legitimate claim of self-defense Zimmerman committed at most murder2 and not hate crime. However, murder2 is in- and of itself not a federal crime and since no element of hate- or any other federal crime is present, the federal government has no jurisdiction.

    If Federal agents and prosecutors are worth anything close to what they are assumed to be and are being paid, this case should be a no-brainer. Difficult cases make excellent lawyers. There is no doubt whatsoever that Zimmerman (a) racially profiled Trayvon as a criminal; (b) as a direct result of that racial profiling engaged in a police-style observation and surveillance of Trayvon, (c) followed Trayvon first in his truck and then chased him on foot after Trayvon ran to get away from him, and (d) finally confronted Trayvon (Dee Dee’s testimony is still rock solid!). There is thus no doubt that “the consciousness, the animus and the motive” driving the chain of these series of Zimmerman’s (initial) actions against Trayvon were completely rooted in Trayvon’s race. These chain of actions ultimately led to/culminated in Trayvon’s death. There is clear evidence to prove that beyond any reasonable doubt. Remove Trayvon’s race from the equation and you have Trayvon and Zimmerman not/never encountering each other. The prosecution, based on that, need NOT prove that THAT chain of “racial consciousness, animus and motive” driving Zimmerman’s (initial) series of actions was unbroken/present from the beginning of the racial profiling until the very moment the fatal shot was fired. A continuous, contiguous ‘presence of racial animus’ is implied from the beginning to the end if the initial presence has been established. The chain of that ‘presence’ can be broken by a legitimate act of self-defense. But as we all know, self-defense is an affirmative defense. GZ MUST take the stand to make the case. Let’s hope that federal prosecutors will not repeat Bernie’s absolutely brilliant strategy, i.e. enter Zimmerman’s self-serving statements of self-defense into evidence (to “bring everything out in the open” to show that “we are not hiding anything”), thereby inadvertently keeping him off the stand. Let us also hope that the US DOJ will not be intimidated by the loud (far) right and will have the courage to aggressively pursue justice in this case (when accusations of “reverse racism, persecution, impropriety, etc.” begin to fly around). Let us last hope that more evidence will be unearthed (especially from the 911-tape). The longer the delay, the more illusory justice will become.

    WE will not give up until Zimmerman is brought to justice. WE the People of the United States Of America and friends from around the world stand shoulder to shoulder in solidarity with African Americans with whom we form ONE PEOPLE in defense of the values upon which our nation was founded. A people that cannot protect its minorities and their children, a people that preys on its minorities and kill their children on the street few steps away from the doors of their homes, a people that succumbs to the most primitive emotions of human nature: fear of “the different” and (wanton) disregard for their wellbeing are a primitive people. We reject that. We are not primitive and WE will get this ‘Zimmerman-thing’ right. Ultimately. This is case is not about Trayvon Benjamin Martin, it is not about the African American community, it is about all of us. It’s about who we – as a people – are.

      • LiveByTheGulf says:

        I keep reading about Trayvon being a hoodlum, a thug, a “gangsta wanna-be”. Nowhere in the trial did the prosecution have witnesses describing Trayvon’s character. In fact, they avoided Trayvon’s character as if there was something to hide.

        Trayvon wasn’t on trial, but the excuse that Trayvon deserved to die was that he was a thug. And as a thug, Trayvon attacked poor defenseless fogen.

        • Drew says:

          Why would they? Trayvon was not on trial (except for on the tv).

          • KateW says:

            Good point Drew. That would have also opened up the door for the defense to challenge that with all sorts of “one sided” information. Probably best for the prosecution to leave it out because his character was not on trial. The kid had a 3.7GPA I read for crying out loud!! 3.7!!

        • fauxmccoy says:

          fred wrote many articles regarding reasons for not bringing in character of trayvon. if they had one witness say ‘yes, he was a good kid, making plans for college’, then that would have opened the door for the defense to bring in all of the negative (if perhaps untrue) ‘evidence’ they had gathered. now, most rational folks recognize his actions as normal teen behavior, but how do you think the jury would have reacted to that? i have plenty of complaints as to how this case was prosecuted, but the lack of character references is not one of them.

    • Rachael says:

      I too thought the backing away was pretty key – this whole thing has been such a shock. I do not understand how any of this happened.

      • anita says:

        I truly realize after hearing that idiot, racist juror, nothing would have made a difference. Maybe better clarification of the jury instructions might have given the hold-outs something to hold on to. They were probably weak anyway. I hope we get to the bottom of what really went on in the jury room& the truth about B37 & all the rest. Hope I’m not rambling too much. I’m very tired, & depressed this a.m.

    • believeinkarma says:


  43. LiveByTheGulf says:

    Remember during the trial that many of those supporting fogen were LE – osterman an air marshall, prosecution witnesses (police) became witnesses helping the defense, fogen’s dad a former magistrate judge. I consider lawyers to also be connected to LE – and two of the jury members had lawyers in their immediate family.

    But military people caught a detail and the following article was written on Business Insider – under Military and Defense:

    “Cop Testifying At Zimmerman Trial Wore Military Ribbons She Didn’t Earn

    Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/cop-wore-military-ribons-at-george-zimmerman-trial-2013-7#ixzz2ZJQmQYwF

    • Drew says:

      My wife doesn’t identify with LE/military and she is an attorney.

      Just saying.

    • KateW says:

      So that begs the question. Was this a fair trial. Witnesses backed out, seemed to support the killer, law enforcement came out to support the killer, so you have to wonder if the FBI of Florida probe about whether he was racist or not was simply said on paper and not truly investigated. Then you have jury tampering as evidenced by someone within the jury room sending out information to his supporters, which broadcasted this information like idiots.

      So where does this leave the American people when the legal system can’t be trusted, and they cover up murder. It’s like a powder keg ready to go off. This case just put a fuse on it.

    • riisey007 says:

      All dressed up in lies for the trial. Sanford police does not have their own awards? really? most police depts have their own system. I guess SPD is ok with mocking true military servants who lost their lives. Why would you take their medal and make them your own, there is no way this liar Singleton would actually risk life and limb for her fellow people no matter if she is a so called officer for SPD which doesn’t say much in the first place. This police dept is shit. They prove that everyday!! P.s. I guess they wanted to look go for their lieing session.

    • Beverly says:

      One cannot connect lawyers to law enforcement. I think most lawyers show respect for the judicial process, but many are very aware of LE abuses.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Don’t forget all the hiding behind waving the American flag by Fogen’s family. Has Jr has done this all his life? Not.

      • anita says:

        Jr. is nothing but an attention whore & a complete phony. He’ll keep showing up on the cable shows as long as he’s invited.The whole brood disgusts me, so called friends of fogens, too. They don’t care a bit about the real America. They see it now as away to make money, get more donations, fame, etc. By the way, anybody know if fogen is still raking in donations? I certainly hope not.

  44. KateW says:

    Raising awareness it not enough unfortunately. Something needs to be done. People are aware and have been away for decades now. The problem now is that the system is assisting these cold blooded killers in getting away with it.

  45. Drew says:

    The tuff racists out there need guns to settle minor arguments.

    Then they hide behind “I was a-scared of the black thugs so I had to shoot.”

    Then the fearful color blindness peddlers say, “don’t bring up race” because they fear critical thought.

    Fearful racists.

    • KateW says:

      You seem to have two personalities. Didn’t you just ask me why am I bringing race into this because it was just an unfortunate incident but then you say “the fearful color blindess peddlers say, “don’t bring up race” because they fear critical thought. So which are you. Are you sympathetic to the “tuff racist” and claim it is just a simple unfortunate incident or are you a color blind peddler.

  46. Drew says:

    Dunn was a-scared, so he’s getting off, too.

  47. Drew says:

    I wonder which of my friends will identify with Dunn in terms of being scared by the black thugs.

  48. Shari/human being with no nation says:

    All due respect to the site owner but this sounds like a concession and a white flag on Justice for Trayvon. The evidence and facts show that a murderer is free. Are you saying that’s the end? We wait for him to make an error like OJ? Hoping Fogen is jailed on an unrelated charge?

    • Absolutely not! I am advocating for prosecuting juror B-37 for perjury during voir dire and a federal prosecution of GZ for committing a hate crime.

      Did you not read yesterday’s article?

      • Shari/human being with no nation says:

        Thank you for your response.

      • bettykath says:

        How did she perjure herself and how can it be proved?

      • Oscar Terry says:

        I don’t know if there is anything that can be done about a corrupt verdict, as this one obviously was, but I do think there should be some real and thorough investigations into all these Jurors, I would like to know how George’s friend knew the breakdown of the first vote, I also believe that these were stealth Jurors who went into the trial with the intention of finding Zimmerman not guilty no matter what evidence was introduced…I truly believe that they were anything BUT fair and impartial

        • SearchingMind says:

          “A corrupt verdict”, “stealth juror” will – given the nature of this case and the circumstances surrounding it – lead to jury nullification and trigger the involvement of the DOJ. These are still early days and we do not have enough hard facts yet to make the case for jury nullification. I would hope that the Justice Department understand the disastrous corrosive nature of what happened, the potential rebirth of numerous John Allen Muhammads as a result, and will therefore leave no stone unturned.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        In your experience, does the “System” fail because the humans who comprise it give up? For example, we observed during Fogen’s trial, where the judge just gave up on enforcing sequestration and even in-court behavior (she let a man onto witness stand after she’d seen him 20′ away in the gallery all week– No consequence for West’s disrespectful outbursts– Prosecuters failed to object to harassment of a witness, failed to note Singleton’s absence from event she claimed to witness…etc).

        That is my impression. They gave up. Stopped fighting mid-match. As if to say, “Too many false witnesses, perjurers, crooks in high places, we can’t chase ’em all. I wasn’t going to run for office anyhow.”

        Wouldn’t Angela Corey block further action?

      • dianetrotter says:

        Wonderful! I was hoping you would get involved in some way.

    • cielo62 says:

      What do you suggest to do? LEGALLY that fucking asshole got away with murder. He can’t be tried again, and until or if the DOJ decides to do something, this case is over from a legal standpoint.

      • sadlyyes says:

        It was the WAY he killed him that disturbs me,HE HAD 15 minutes of complete and utter TERROR and new he was going to die,i keep reliving it in my mind,the SCREAMs for help!

        • Cercando Luce says:

          The way he killed him, and the way he NEVER, EVER, SHOWED ANY REMORSE FOR WHAT HE DID. And for that he has legions of fawning followers who pretend to be patriotic Americans…(((chills up and down)))

    • KateW says:

      Shari, I have to agree. I am not going to lie, with the post I read I was feeling discouraged. I guess people feel that is the reality of the situation. Still hopeful but a little discouraged right now. Im on that emotional rollercoaster. What really saddens me are African Americans in Florida that say they are afraid to go out now because the courts essentially said it is ok to go out and kill an African American and you can claim self defense or SYG and you will get off.

      That is a disheartening message to be sent to the citizens of this nation.

      • Drew says:

        Why are you bringing race into it?

        It was an unfortunate accident.

      • KateW says:

        And I feel, if the DOJ does not act, then it sends a clear message the govt backs away from these issues and if things like this continue devolving into the Wild West days we will be in some serious trouble. That is why the James Byrd/Mathew Sheppard bill was enacted to assist in prosecuting horrific crimes/violation of rights against the citizens of this country. I don’t condone violence, however, if the govt puts up its hands to say we don’t get involved in these issues then I am afraid people will see street justice as an alternative.

      • dianetrotter says:

        KateW, I think professor is saying that there is a whole lot to be done simultaneously. If we put all focus on Zimmerman, this other idiot my slide through the system. Let’s cover all fronts. We can’t do it in a single thread because that is too confusing. We already have so many comments that it is hard to keep up.

  49. KateW says:

    He will probably get off, I suppose it is as simply as that if you look at the statistics. I no longer have faith in the justice system to prosecute crimes where the victims are African American. They will likely say this guy was justified because the kid was getting out of his car and they are probably going to say the same thing they did about Martin. The boy should have stayed in his car blah blah blah.

    • Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country

      Depression serves no one. Inaction is unacceptable.

      Blah, blah, blah is not a course of action.

      The cause of justice is never ending.

      • MichelleO says:

        ABSOLUTELY! Thank you for that needed comment, Professor.

      • believeinkarma says:

        Yes and frustrating. But the fight continues. We need to pursue hate crime for fogen, end syg laws, fight for Jordan, and never let them forget Trayvon. We also need to stop putting the victim on trial.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Wouldn’t it be nice to add verses to this song to speak today’s mothers’ concern for there children being in danger due to profiling and racism?!

  50. jodiwankanobi says:

    he will be shitting in his bloomers right about now…no way he will get off thanks to the GZ debacle. He will be made an example of. See world, we’re not really racist and stoopid…honest.

  51. Good morning! I haven’t followed the Jordan case as closely as Trayvon’s, so I’ll get up to speed on it.

  52. HeresLookingatYOU says:

    I’m sick about the jury for Trayvon but praying the DOJ gets to work…there needs to be a better way to vet jurors. I hope there is justice for Jordan Davis. I hope there is justice for the young man in Milwaukee who was murdered by the 76 year old man.. I’m sick sick sick of our children being treated like trash.

    • The only way we are going to stop this injustice is by raising everyone’s consciousness and the only way we’re going to do that is by working together to raise it.

      The internet is the perfect vehicle to do that and this site is a great place to make it happen.

      • Sophia33 says:

        This is true Professor Leatherman. Raising consciousness. You have no idea how happy I am to see people like you working towards this. No longer an island among ourselves.

      • So true, Professor. The wonderful article you wrote that first brought me to your site was about Ma’at, justice, and jury nullification. We definitely have to look to other higher sources, like the Golden Rule, if we are going to do anything to repair this ‘system of justice’ that is wrought with blatant unfairness and, dare I say, greed.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


        Here are some ideas that can be promoted as suggestions at various internet blogs, Facebook, etc. sites:


      • HeresLookingatYou says:

        God Bless you for providing this place and being a voice of reason.

      • Leslie says:

        Professor, as I posted above to cielo, I believe that part of the problem is that some people refuse introspection.

      • believeinkarma says:

        Very true. I am not a quitter. There is still a lot we can do. The Martin’s aren’t giving up so I choose to stand behind them. This fight is different and we know it. We need to fight these laws that allow killers to get away and racists win
        We need to make sure it doesn’t happen again, the killing & the verdict.
        The racists are not the majority. Just a loud minority
        There is a 100 city March this weekend. If you can’t go then use the internet. Petitions got attention. We can’t give up. If we do we say it is ok and we know it isn’t.
        I choose to fight where I can and not quit.

    • jodiwankanobi says:

      i agree that case is sick, lock the prick up for the rest of his miserable life….

  53. crazy1946 says:


    • cielo62 says:

      >^..^< I've been very down since this verdict was read. I wonder if I can muster up the energy to care anymore about another case.

      • crazy1946 says:

        cielo62, while the journey may be hard, will the end not be rewarding? I’ve caught myself getting discouraged as well, but I refuse to surrender to the hate filled racist minority of this nation and cannot quit!

        • cielo62 says:

          crazy~ But are they REALLY the “minority”? A co-worker posted some stupid shit on Facebook about this trial. A friend of hers really blasted her, while I added a few comments of a factual nature about the evidence. She decided instead of discussion, she just deleted the entire thread. She wouldn’t consider herself a racist. She would NEVER use those ugly racist words! BUT she just doesn’t SEE that by accepting all the BS put out by MOM that she is indeed a racist. I started this journey because I, too, believed that another black thug had attacked someone. It happens in Houston all of the time. But I at least was HONEST about what I saw inside myself as I went through everything with people on this blog. I came to care very deeply for the “bright boy with a future” and have come to despise the loser racist that, by gaming the system, was able to both get away with murder and deprive our world of a promising human being. I came to see the power of my white privilege. It has been a long introspective journey. The next step is to awaken others to the same thing. But what I see is that people DON’T want to know. Don’t WANT to see. Don’t WANT to change. I am facing a brick wall of indifferent and subtle racism. And I don’t know how to get through it.


          • Leslie says:

            @ cielo..that is part of the problem. Some people refuse introspection.

          • crazy1946 says:

            cielo62, While I understand the logic that you are using, and agree with it to a point, might I suggest you consider that perhaps the reason your friend did not stand up like you did was because of fear or lack of courage to engage in an argument that they felt could not be won? Does lack of courage as she exhibited a sign of racism or is it just a sign of weakness of character? Many times we as a people tend to look at people based on our own perceptions of what we think they are doing or saying, and fail to realize that some times we put emphasis on things that are not accurate.
            We all sometimes come to an impasse where we can’t get thru the proverbial brick wall, when that happens we can choose to beat our collective heads against it, or rise above the wall and go forward. Only you can decide when you throw in the towel and quit, but I already know you are not ready to quit, just frustrated and tired. Just hang on and stay the course and you (we) will reach out and grasp the hands that hold us tight in victory!

          • cielo62 says:

            crazy~ true, true. I mean, Facebook isn’t exactly the place for soul baring revelations! I’m very fortunate to have so many fellow travelers on here. Thank you for your caring hand!


      • Deborah Moore says:

        Lots of that going around, Cielo.
        So, we lick our wounds, maybe get self indulgent for a few, but then stand up and keep going.
        For a smile, see the link I posted a few comments down.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Did you see the “Knock at Midnight” speech by MLK that I posted under the last article?

        MLK spoke about his discouraging moments and about overcoming them:

        It is at this link there:


      • Malisha says:

        Dear Cielo,

        In the early 80s I had something happen to me in court that was so shocking I came away with a feeling of altered reality. My son (who was a toddler at the time) was not dead, however, so I kept doing whatever I felt was necessary within the system to move forward, to seek justice, etc. etc. etc. Still, at the time I felt that the experience I had was bizarre and totally unusual and it was just the result of a lunatic, a stupid judge, a lazy lawyer, and this and that, and whatever. I did not imagine that the entire system was bad, wrong, screwed, fuckedup, etc.

        Throughout the late 80s and completely through the nineties and up to Y2K, I began to see other people having the same experience I had, even worse, and I began to (at first) suspect and (later) confirm that the “justice system” was a sham. It is a fraud. It is a fake. Blah blah blah.

        From 1987 until 2000, I helped other people caught in this mess by either going with them, helping them find resources, working with them myself as a paralegal and an investigator, etc. etc. etc. Two-hundred-fifty-two of them. EVERY SINGLE ONE of those cases could, if described fully, show the same exact pattern: Corruption, bullying, racism or sexism, open and obvious perjury, whores acting as “experts”, judges pretending to believe unbelievable things and pretending NOT to believe plain facts right in front of them that could not be denied by any rational person with an i.q. greater than 60 on a clear day.

        In the year 2000 I said, “no more.” My colleagues in “the movement” insisted that I should not “retire” and some of them — who had not done one tenth of what I had done for 18 years, said I could not “give up.” I took all their guilt-trip-attempts and said, basically, “oh yes I can; I’m a quitter, not a fighter.”

        In 2002 a friend of mine who was also a colleague in this effort dragged me back into a case. I found myself back in three more cases for the same reason; someone whom I couldn’t deny had appealed to me.

        Things got considerably worse.

        All of our work and all of my work resulted in nothing more than my own exhaustion and demoralization. The system has gotten so bad that I can “call” a case when it starts. There’s only one “call” needed. Nothing changes it. No passionate, hard-working, intelligent swimmer can change the course of a large ocean liner by banging on the hull and swimming alongside shouting, “Hey DON’T GO THERE, DON’T DO THAT! TURN AROUND, Hey Hey Hey!”

        The sad fact is that if you have the big guns you win.
        And who has the big guns? Courts, police, people like Fogen, corrupt and racist and sexist and dishonest bullies of every make and size in every governmental agency, local, state, and federal, that’s who.

        Still I will see if anything can be done in Jordan.
        Nowadays (I am a senior citizen) I am wondering if there is any effective way of making a statement. Perhaps, given the destruction of the free press (not by coercion but by money), there is not. B-37 knows which side of the bread is buttered.

        And I think we will have more hidden juries in our future, because BDLR did not challenge the idea of a hidden jury. (He should have challenged it as unconstitutional immediately and taken it up to the US Supreme Court; the assumption that jurors could only render public service if HIDDEN because otherwise a Black Mob would kill them is itself assuming two things: ONE, that they will obviously want to acquit (before there has been a trial? At jury selection time?); and TWO, that the only conceivable reason for conviction is fear of Black Rage. Meanwhile, look at mafia trials. Witnesses, not juries, are hidden. FIRST they testify and THEN they are put into witness protection programs. Prosecutions CAN GO FORWARD against anybody, with open access to jurors. Nobody kills jurors. Why would people assume that “Black Mobs” or “Rioters” (Thanks, B-37) would kill jurors, rather than just killing defendants or their witnesses?

        It also assumes that any supporters of the prosecution should take their chances with the confrontation clause but that “the people” have no stake in seeing justice done. The hidden jury, the hidden (unpublished) appellate opinion, and the hidden agenda are delivering to us what we perhaps have deserved ever since this land was stolen from the native Americans: THE STAR CHAMBER. The ruler will make all decisions from here on out; the “People” as in “People versus Zimmerman” is emasculated and a jury of six little ladies from Sanford showed us that.

      • HeresLookingatYou says:

        I too felt disheartened but I now realize I don’t have time for that lives are at stake …we all have to keep taking a stand ..if we go silent they will take that as acceptance..
        Not gonna happen while I have breath in my body.

      • SearchingMind says:

        @ Cielo and Malisha

        Both of you remind me of a woman I have absolute respect for (but never liked too much because she never- and still does not get along with my mother :)): my grandmother. Unlike her, both of you are still very young. But like her both of you have iron-will, clarity of thought and are very judicious. Even when many on this blog rightly or wrongly started sensing that the prosecution was becoming over-confident and not doing a fantastic job during the actual trial, you were always focused, continuously roaring the cries of battle encouraging and pushing despairing soldiers along and onto the frontlines. I appreciated that very much. I thought I could use this opportunity to make that known.

        • cielo62 says:

          Searching Mind~ Thank you for your kind words. I am just very discouraged now. Still, I know I will gird up again and continue. If I don’t, it will be ME that I will have let down. I say this almost every year as I start a new academic year; can I do this another year with more cuts, less resources and all kinds of “programs” that end up eating all the teaching time a teacher has? Paperwork, insane expectations, kids coming without adequate preparation, lack of resources… I get so fed up. But then I look at those kids where I teach. 1st generation Americans, high poverty area, limited English proficiency. If I don’t stick around, a less experienced teacher will take my place. At this very juncture I can make a difference. And now, I see Trayvon in their faces. True they are hispanic, but mostly the mestizo groups from Mexico and Central America. Dark enough to get shot by any anti-immigrant nut with a gun and SYG behind him. It’s a rainy day and my spirits are low. But don’t worry. I’ll still be here. Thank you for the uplift to my heart. 🙂 PS. LOL! I guess 51 is still “very young” by some standards!


      • shyloh says:

        I thought after the CAYLEE ANTHONY case I’ve never get involved again. I actually still to this day have never updated my “Justice for Caylee” web site. I got involved even though I didn’t think I would. No matter how difficult it is. We can’t give up. It may be one of US one day. Hang in there. It does get better. When? Who knows!

        • cielo62 says:

          shyloh?Are you ZCBest? I think I’ve seen that avatar somewhere before…


          • shyloh says:

            No, I have never went by any other name except shyloh. And that is my real name ha! I use to be all over. But like I said. The CA trial sort of burned me out some. But still moving on ha.

          • cielo62 says:

            shyloh~ It’s probably just my bad memory. I’m glad you’re still hanging tough!


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