Judge Nelson did not properly instruct the jury on self-defense in Zimmerman case

Wednesday, July 17, 2013

Good morning:

The self-defense instruction was a major contributing cause to the Saturday night debacle.

A person is justified in using deadly force if he reasonably believes that such force is
necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself.

In deciding whether George Zimmerman was justified in the use of deadly force, you
must judge him by the circumstances by which he was surrounded at the time the force was
used. The danger facing George Zimmerman need not have been actual; however, to justify
the use of deadly force, the appearance of danger must have been so real that a reasonably
cautious and prudent person under the same circumstances would have believed that the
danger could be avoided only through the use of that force. Based upon appearances, George
Zimmerman must have actually believed that the danger was real.

If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any
place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his
ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was
necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent
the commission of a forcible felony.

In considering the issue of self-defense, you may take into account the relative physical
abilities and capacities of George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin.

If in your consideration of the issue of self-defense you have a reasonable doubt on the
question of whether George Zimmerman was justified in the use of deadly force, you should
find George Zimmerman not guilty.

However, if from the evidence you are convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that
George Zimmerman was not justified in the use of deadly force, you should find him guilty if all
the elements of the charge have been proved.

Notice something missing?

Judge Nelson did not instruct the jury that an aggressor cannot claim self-defense and that a person who aggressively follows another person is an aggressor. That was the heart of the prosecution case.

Go here to see the instructions.


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871 Responses to Judge Nelson did not properly instruct the jury on self-defense in Zimmerman case

  1. J4TMinATL says:


  2. Lonnie Starr says:

    Nor did Zimmerman claim self defense, the prosecution put that claim before the jury themselves, as if they were working for the defense. Let’s face it, the prosecution threw the case. The only question now is why?

  3. C. Smith says:

    Well if she felt that the law should be changed, why did she aquit instead of hanging the jury for another trial, or until they got the instructions right befoore just letting a guilty man go free?

  4. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    And the grass is gone, the boy disappears
    And rain keeps falling like helpless tears
    And what have they done to the rain
    Just a little breeze out of the sky

  5. I have to be honest with it and say that my own experience with the ‘criminal justice system’ poisoned me to the point where I quit watching the Zimmerman trial near the end. I did hear closing statements. (I also sustained a burn injury from the motorcycle).

    This was a wrongful acquittal.

    There is court, which apparently means little in this country, but there is also the Court of Public Opinion, and in that court Zimmerman lost.

    Wonder how long it will be until he commits his next violent crime, and blames somebody else.

    The book-writer wanna be lying juror is disgusting and should be jailed for perjury.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Oh, Crane, I am so sorry to hear of your injury. How painful!
      All good wishes for a quick healing!

    • KateW says:

      I too am sorry to hear about your injury Crane and I wholeheartedly agree with what you have said here.

  6. Tee says:

    Professor what do you think about the articles that are being published about other jurors trying to distance themeselves from juror b37?

  7. Malisha says:

    Not allowed to call the killer “the defendant”
    Not allowed to say it was “racial profiling”
    This trial, which took place in 2013, was actually 1984.
    And Big Brother is white.
    White, armed and dangerous.
    (But don’t worry, he’s a wus and a sissy and a chicken.)

    • MDH says:

      As a white man, I have to deal with GZ supporters.

      They are so deluded, that it is a waste of time to engage in a rational argument, so I just say “your macho hero is a proven weak, sniveling, coward”.

      Look at what he said in a very frightened voice on the 9-11 tape.

      He’s turning around and looking at me

      He has his hand in his waist

      He’s balack

      I was born and man and want to die one.

      For the life of me, I fail to see how being a part of that RW mentality will help me accomplish that.

      A man {note my connotation of man applies to women in that it should be taken as a non-sniveling coward}, if he did think there was a problem, would have got out of the car and told T who he was and why he was following.

      Look at their fawning over the police or military by saying “they protect our freedom”

      What is up with that?

      The military and police enforce laws or defend the state against enemies.

      Protecting freedom and rights of all our people is a duty that each and every one of us is responsible for.

  8. Nellie Nell says:

    I am just sick all over again. My heart aches so bad for Trayvon, his parents, family, friends and supporters. I am angry, hurt, disappointed, frustrated and sad.

    How the hell could this happen and why?!? None of it makes much sense to me, it is something that I will never understand.

    Justice has not been served because this racist B37 was allowed on the jury even though we knew how she felt about Trayvon and George before being selected. I knew she would be a problem but had no idea that she would be able to bully a M2 and 2 manslaughter votes down to not guilty. The law should not allow this typed of bullshit to happen.

    She and everyone else with the racist views will one day pay for their hearts filled with hate and racism.


    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I hear you, Nellie.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        As you say it doesn’t make sense.

        Tracy tweeted that he was heartbroken.

        I am praying for Sybrina and Tracy.

        And now Democracy is ragtime on the corner
        Hoping for some rain.
        Looks like it’s hoping,
        Hoping for some rain.

  9. Malisha says:

    As long as every single small act you commit in the lead-up to murder is legal (“go in the same direction as” someone, carry a loaded gun while identifying someone you call a “suspect,” —

    Oh wait a minute.

    Chasing down Trayvon with a loaded gun because he is a “suspect” IS a crime. It is NOT legal. It is legal under the state law of Florida. But it is NOT legal under federal law. In fact, since Trayvon Martin had a Constitutionally protected interest in walking along while speaking on his cell phone and NOT being “a suspect,” for doing so, the armed following of Trayvon Martin deprived Trayvon Martin of his liberty interest under “color” of the state law that Fogen acknowledged by calling NEN. The state law that would give police the right to stop and frisk Trayvon Martin was the state law that Fogen invoked and that state law differed from the federal law that protected Trayvon Martin from Fogen’s actions!

    What Fogen did was perfectly legal under FLORIDA law but it was a federal crime.

    • MDH says:

      It is at least harassment with a pattern of racial profiling.

      It also shows how messed up our society is.

      We have defenders of GZ saying it is A-OK to call and report any black male who dresses like a thug {the criteria for thug being a track hoodie and white tennis shoes, that are common amongst teens who engage in high school sports}; follow them without identifying yourself; to confront and demand ID {note GZ did that with another black male}; and to falsely accuse a child of stealing.

  10. Malisha says:

    I am sure B-37, prior to this trial, had Black employees in her home and garden, if not currently, then at some time in the past. Somebody with a story about how racist she is will come forward at some point. We will learn about it. We already know about it from her own lips, of course, but subtly. On the other hand, JN allowing that faked-up cartoon of guilty Black Trayvon scaring poor wus Fogen and then making it sound like a domestic relations quarrel when she referred to the killer by name rather than as “defendant” made it obvious to the jury that they could let his “negligible” mistakes go and acquit him. In my mental contest with myself to figure out who is the most guilty for the ultimate charade (not the original one in early 2012), I’m having trouble deciding among Nelson, Serino and B-37’s husband.

    • bettykath says:

      I’m not ready to put Serino in the trash heap. He made a serious mistake early on by believing fogen in that he was the one screaming and telling the witnesses rather than letting them tell their story and recording it but, in the end, just before the case was taken from him, he believed fogen guity of m2 or manslaughter. This didn’t come out at the trial b/c of the very specific questions he was asked. He really wanted to say more and give clues, but he would have been unresponsive if he had just blurted it out. State didn’t ask to cover up for SPD and defense didn’t ask to cover up for fogen.

  11. Endless Summer says:

    Juror B 37 may have hired a publicist for her most recent statement, but she still couldn’t be bothered to spell Trayvon’s name correctly. By her own words, she believes Trayvon brought the whole thing on himself by being out after dark. I guess she thinks we should bring back the Sundown laws.

    She is baffled by all the criticism that is coming her way. She cannot see her own racism any more than she can see her own craven venality in her attempt to profit off her jury service.

    And now we find that a sequester is not really a sequester.

    • riisey007 says:

      Her husband most likely drafted that statement being he is an attorney. Mark Garagos said last night that it seems he did it. They are trying to save face now but she went on Anderson 360 on her own accord and was all giddy to be able to pat Zimmerman on the back in front of the world. She could have saved that apology and prayer.

  12. deetruth says:

    “Based upon appearances, George Zimmerman must have actually believed that the danger was real.”

    The instructions are troubling, particularly the sentence above. “based upon appearances… “. what does that mean?. Is that a statement or an instruction?

    • Judy75201 says:

      I agree. It sounds as much like a statement (of “fact”) as an instruction that they had to make a determination one way or another that he did indeed believe that the danger was real.

  13. a2nite says:

    They didn’t believe Rachel J. They didn’t listen to her. Her story supports GZ bring the agressor. It’s too bad the couldn’t get over their own bigotry.

    TM apparently detested to die in thus evil female B37’s tiny little “whites are only ok” mind.

  14. Malisha says:

    We don’t even have to wonder about how the jury deliberations were screwed up; everybody knows that it was not a real sequestration. Family members, manicurists, come on. It was a Sanford home game. Taaffe only knew what every other racist in Seminole County knew. People: Chat with your barber much?

    • riisey007 says:

      I live in Alabama and I was talking to one of my patients, she is an caucasion woman who lived in Florida for over 20 years and she said Ocala and Sanford is the worst place for anyone of color to live. She said it was one of those sundown areas back in the day( meaning if you are black,etc don’t let them catch you out and about after the sun goes down). She was very candid about it. It makes my heart sad.

  15. Malisha says:

    Each morning I wake up with a single sentence in my conscious memory, and since the acquittal, these have been the sentences:

    Sunday. The prosecution did not rebut a single thing.

    Monday. So Fogen was only an “accused citizen” even when he was on trial, but when Trayvon died he was already “the suspect.”

    Tuesday. Bertalan testified but Rashada did not.

    Wednesday. They were not allowed to say “racial.”

    Thursday: The judge would not call him “the defendant.”

    Here you have it. The prosecution did not do its job; the society in which the trial took place (Sanford) regarded the victim as “the suspect” and embraced Fogen as one of its own; a racist resident who probably planned the murder with Fogen was a witness while a Black resident who feared Fogen and was being chased out of his own home by Fogen did not; the truth about the case, that it was a racially motivated murder, was disguised at the show trial; and even the judge did not go so far as to pretend that it was a valid trial with a defendant. IT WAS A SHAM PROCEEDING.

    • @Malisha,
      I’ve still been processing all of this, but when I woke up this morning my intuition said, “B29 is not safe.” When I began to fully realize what that meant, I began thinking about movies like The Stepford Wives, Murder in Coweta County, and such. Small towns in the South don’t play when it comes to ‘outsiders’ trying to shake up their narrow paradigm of how things are supposed to be done.

      The political web in Sanford is obviously thick. If the cops, DA, experts, lay witnesses, and at least 2-3 jurors were on all singing from the same hymnal in this case, any holdouts (who are ‘outsiders’, with kids going to neighborhood schools, who had to try to ‘fit in’ in this tight-knit community, would not stand a chance of bringing back a hung jury without some backlash or repercussion.

      This court’s highly unusual announcement of offering counseling for jurors to me sounds like an attempt to circle the wagons, flush B29 out, and determine whether she’s still on board. I think B29’s sequestration with the ‘Sanford Wives’ under that scenario could have been more than just stressful requiring counseling. I shudder the thought, but In that kind of environment in a small town in the heart of Florida, it very well could have been life-threatening.

      • deetruth says:

        One juror came to deliberations thinking guilty of murder 2. One juror wanted to leave. One juror, B37, and one alternate (the male) are talking, and four jurors (all but B29) signed and issued the group statement.

        I’m pretty sure that B29 is the one who wanted murder 2 and wanted to leave. I too worry about B29 (and her family) – the Other/Outsider.

        And by the way, has anything really changed since Jim Crow?

  16. pat deadder says:

    Can the DOJ get fogen’s phone records unsealed.I don’t understand why they were sealed in the first place..I’ve heard the saying ”Say what they want to hear but do what you want to do”.So I’m concerned about what the DOJ will do or not do..I’m afraid they are just waiting for this to go away.I understand SYG needs to be addressed but fogen needs to be held accountable ..My Mother always said the difference in democracy and dictatorship is we can speak out.but in the end leaders do what they want.So her opinion was the dictators were stupid let the people speak but just do what you were planning anyway.I hope the these actions against injustice do not dissipate from so much talking.I want fogen held accountable that’s it.He got away with murder so far with the help of lying LE,. Judge,ignorant snob juror and god knows who else.Are we all naïve about the underbelly of what goes on in our governments.IDK I’m just down in the dumps at the moment I need to kick myself in the ass and appreciate what all of you are doing.Tracy and Sybrina are too nice.

  17. You all have thoughtful comments says:

  18. smokeegyrl says:

    A host of celebs have come out in SUPPORT of Trayvon Martin in the wake of George Zimmerman’s ACQUITTAL in the shooting death of the Florida teen. Bruce Springsteen is one of them.

  19. jodiwankanobi says:

    also, if Lester Chamber had been attacked in Florida, could he have shot that crazy bitch?

    • Rachael says:

      I’m not really sure how this is any different from Zimmerman except that they aren’t in Florida.

      Seems like Florida is a place where it it okay to kill kids.

  20. Woow! says:

    When the jurors are exposed (B37) it will be an inside job, people she know

  21. KateW says:

    I had to post this because I died laughing when I saw it but it is reminiscent of how the African American community is feeling now. The fear is real and this is not the American way. We have done a disservice to the people of our country by allowing this to happen.


    • KateW says:

      Yes! I thought so too when I saw OMara on HLN talking about he didn’t understand the outrage. UGH DUH …. a child is dead and his killer just walked!!

      He may have believed and I use that term loosely in his clients innocence, but I am sure they knew it he killed him. But of course they cant say….well we sort of believe him.

      He also said he felt the Feds were placating to the masses to shut them up or until the anger dies down. I hope this is not the case. I will write a letter and email the White House every month and along with the NAACP and other civil rights leaders urge the government to act. I would hate to live in fear everyday of my life and the African Americans in this country, in Florida should not have to fear living their life!

      Like I said, I will write Obama a letter every month for as long as it take to remind him of this travesty and the importance of the justice department to act.

  22. Woow! says:

    B37 could not wait to bump her gums and tell the world she freed George Zimmerman. She thought she was going to write a book to push her own narrative of the events and hit the jackpot at the same time.

    B37 under estimated the power of the people. It is too sad but funny that she do not understand that she came off as a racist bigot. She does not understand that only 1 to 2 percent of the population think like her. She want fame so let us show her what people really think of her. Listed below are a few headlines giving her the spotlight.

    1. The Rise and Fall of Juror B37 and How Verdicts are Made
    2. With her IQ what is she planning to write a coloring book
    3. BlueSFPolitico: Note to juror B37: please stop talking to the media, your elitist and racially insensitive remarks are offensive! Plea?
    4. Thanks Juror B37 for giving us some insight to the sophisticated deliberation process.
    5. Is juror B37 racist?

    6. Hey juror B37? Is that how “you people” are living your lives? If she sounds like a racist, smells like a racist, she i? I am convinced florida keeps using the caseyanthony jury pool B37 trayvonmartin georgezimmerman rzimmermanjr murderers donwest TUSK81: Juror B37 reminds us she dislikes most media…as she appears on Anderson Cooper Live to promote her upcoming book.

    7. Zimmerman Juror Speaks From Inside Her Anonymous Bubble

    8. B-37 saying is that they ignored the evidence in order to overlook manslaughter as a realistic verdict, and convinced the other jurors to go along with it .

    9. You talked about how sorry you felt for George Zimmerman’s life, through your tears. Anderson Cooper had to collect himself when he realized you were only crying for “Georgie” and asked, “Do you feel sorry for Trayvon?,” to which you replied, “I feel sorry for both.”

    See how you couldn’t even condescend to feel for Trayvon, alone, not even for a moment?

    That’s how we know you’re a disgusting human being.

    10. 4 jurors distance themselves from B37

    11. George Zimmerman is still in hiding. It will be a long time before he shows his face. At least he will have Juror B37 to keep him company. She is good at giving interviews incognito.

    12. Other Zimmerman jurors ain’t got time for B37

    13. You talked about how sorry you felt for George Zimmerman’s life, through your tears. Anderson Cooper had to collect himself when he realized you were only crying for “Georgie” and asked, “Do you feel sorry for Trayvon?,” to which you replied, “I feel sorry for both.”

    See how you couldn’t even condescend to feel for Trayvon, alone, not even for a moment?

    That’s how we know you’re a disgusting human being.

    14. How come that juror refers to zimmerman in a very familiar way “George” ; everyone else says George zimmerman. Did she know him? How is she so “warm’ when speaking about him.

    15. The jurore on air in your interview is an obvious red neck, right wing gun supporter and racist … really pathetic .. there are so many well educated people in America but they do not live in Florida!!! I am sad for the martin family and scared because these scary, ignorant, mean ugly proposition this country. Pathetic.

    16. juror B37, keep talking, the real you will come out, most of things she is saying do not make sense, look at her back ground that in it self tells you who and what she is really about.

    17. Small Win: Twitter Got Zimmerman Juror B37′s Book Deal Canned

    18. Preaching to the choir: Oh, Juror B37, you just make it too easy

    19. The minute that #B37 fixed her mouth to say that Sybrina “wanted” it to be her son crying in terror before being killed, I knew she’s awful.

    20. When B37 made the decision to write a book and do interviews there went her right to privacy. Public figures have no rights to privacy and now that she has chosen to go public neither does she.

    How does it feel to be the most hated woman in america B37. How does it feel to know the world think of you as an ignorant racist bigot.

  23. Woow! says:

    Pictures were posted of B37 hugging CAC mother

    Taken from another website:
    Supposedly her husbands name is Steven G. Horn, a space attorney in Marriett Island, Fl. Her name maybe Christine, I think she is 45 or 46

    Cyber sleuths are exposing B37.

  24. Woow! says:

    All bigoted racist are stupid people. They never know when they have won and when to shut up.

    They were smart enough to get on the CAC but they were not smart enough to keep their mouths shut after the verdict. These dumbasses are telling on themselves. Take Franke Taffee; he let it out the bag that he had inside knowledge on how the jurors were voting.

    Next, look at B37…. enough said.

    Now 4 jurors want to distance themselves from B37 because someone has told them she is going to get them into trouble or investigated.

    The lone juror (probably the only sane one out of the bunch), probably the initial hold out is very quiet. Not one word from her.

    How long before these ladies crack and tell what really happened. It is safe to bet that there were some jury tampering by the defense (maybe not directly but by using family members or B37).

    Will these jurors be another Ben Krubidos, used to serve a purpose then thrown out with the trash?

    Those jurors will sling each other under the fastest bus if the right people start asking questions.

    If B37 would not have started running her mouth, we never have figured how that creep A cracker got away with the perfect murder.

    • KateW says:

      (Standing at attention) YES MAAM! lol I agree.

      The one who hasnt spoken is B 39? She is the Hispanic lady who moved from Chicago 6 months ago and has several children, the oldest is 20 I do believe. Married for 10 years. If she is the lone hold out I know in my heart she is feeling a lot of remorse. Stupid prosecutors really botched this one. I felt there were plenty of qualified African Americans that could have sat on that panel. One comes to mind an African American man who served in the military.

      They do sound like they are already clawing at each other. It has a lot to do with the backlash, and no one wants to be blamed for this fiasco.

  25. aussie says:

    Yikes. I just accidentally read a Rush Limbaugh piece about Piers Morgan’s interview with Rachel.

    I’ve heard you guys say bad words about him, but oh golly. If he was the only thing available on TV I’d throw a brick through it. Lucky for me we don’t have him here at all.

    • Woow! says:

      Somebody need to horse whipp that racist SOB.

      Rush must have some dirt on people because it is a miracle no one has shut him up on all his years on the air.

      He is the idot that pushed the narrative for McCain to chose Palin as his VP. He spouted that garbarge on his show for months then bam, there she was. My office mate would listen to him every day at work and it drove me crazy.

    • KateW says:

      lol He makes you want to smash it or rip your ears out.

  26. KateW says:

    I like how the jurors are now sort of back peddling. They knew damn skippy this verdict was wrong and no one wants to be associate with this one or probably each other, especially those who were probably pressured or bullied into changing their verdict. They should be ashamed!!! If they knew their and believed in their verdict they should have “stood their ground” and said the man needs to be held accountable and I will meet you in the middle but I will not give you a not guilty verdict. I would have said we will be here all week, all month and this is not going to be one sided where manslaughter or murder 2 are reduced to not guilty.

    I would have said you are his supporter and you are reviewing the evidence and putting forth an argument based on the evidence then you can’t talk to me until you review the information and give me a valid argument and we can compromise from there.

    At least with a guilty verdict he could always appeal or fight it. With a not guilty verdict he can’t be tried again especially if there is new evidence or whatever. He can say he meant to kill the kid because he hates Black people and they could no longer touch him. The only recourse now are civil and the evidence is a little more shorter than the murder trial. We will see. I hope the feds are not just placating to the masses so they can brush them off. They need to act because the African Americans in Florida are now scared to live their lives and they should not have to be afraid to live! This is America and a group of peoples liberties and rights are being threatened!

    • Woow! says:

      How do we know they put forth any arguments. The stealth jurors could have just said if you don’t vote not guilty we are not leving here until you do.

      Those women were too stupid to understand the evidence let alone have a debate about it.

      • KateW says:

        Yeah this is true. We don’t know. I guess we won’t know unless one of them speaks out. I am sure there is some regret and remorse going on for those that wanted to charge the cretin. Juror B29, I do believe that was her number, the Hispanic woman hasn’t spoken out and wasn’t included in the letter about B37. Probably would have been greater debate had they put more people of color on that panel. It may have ended in a hung jury, but if you have a good fore person then they can negotiate a compromise or get everyone to come to a consensus based on the evidence, and not who is ready to go home and write a d*mn book!

      • Malisha says:

        That’s basically what B-37 did when B-29 said she wanted to go home. Had they sent a message out to the judge that B-29 would not continue and they couldn’t agree, there would have been either a hung jury or a real clarification of the responsibilities of jurors.

      • dianetrotter says:

        I hung a jury. The anger in the room was thick enough to cut. They did not break me. I agreed t 1st degree but without special circumstances. Special circumstances meant the death penalty. I was concerned about “lying in wait.”

  27. jodiwankanobi says:

    they should have put Taaffe on the stand, he would have exploded into a drunken rage and told everyone where gz’s heart was that night…..

  28. KateW says:

    This sounds increasingly what is going to need to happen. This is not America in which African Americans are afraid to go about their daily lives for fear they will be killed or their children will be hunted down and shot. This is what is going on in Florida now. Black people are scared. This verdict has paralyzed the African American people and the African American communities in Florida. Had this been the guilty verdict over 70+% of the world said needed to take place then it would not change race issues in this country but it would have made people feel a little safer in that justice prevails no matter what color, but that is not what happened and that is not the message it sent.

    • jodiwankanobi says:

      haha o’reilly is the biggest dick on the planet.

      i hate the talk of “well it’s black on black death that is the problem”. I HATE that. That is not the issue. That is trying to distract from the topic of conversation. Just because there is black on black crime it does not mean black people aren’t being treated unfairly by the white majority…and why do white people only care about black on black crime when someone points out that another black kid is dead and his white killer is free to carry on about his business.

      And what of white on white crime? Nearly every murder in my country is white on white…and i’m sure there is a lot in the US. How about trying to help black youth that are discriminated against, held back, profiled, arrested, thugified etc. Give them opportunities, help them and all other children get out of the problem areas they may be living in, give them a future and hope, let them know they are worth more to the world than just being a stain on society that white men can have target practice with and show them they are loved and respected by the country that is just as much theirs as it is the fox new’s and nuthouses.

      Oh that’s right, because no one cares about black on black crime unless a poor white guy shoots one and needs justification.

      • KateW says:

        LOL Jodiwankanobi, use the force

      • KateW says:

        Your right it is absolutely not the issue. The statistics show that Black on Black crime is lower than White on Black crime, and Black on White crime is even lower! And your right, just because there is Black on Black crime is not a justification or a reason to go out and murder Black people or make excuses for other violence against them. Just like the commentator said people make excuses when it is convenient for them to do so.

        The hypocrisy, I know.

      • KateW says:

        If the feds don’t step in this is going to be a likely solution. This killer needs to be prosecuted and held accountable.

  29. Two sides to a story says:

    UK Guardian: Martin Rowson on the Liverpool care pathway, Zimmerman verdict and Belfast riots – cartoon

  30. dianetrotter says:

    I’m annoyed that HLN puts Sheherazade on panels. She perpetuates a stereotype. She and Taafe go back and forth pooling their ignorance.

    • chills101 says:

      Wrong she speaks her truths. My opinion only, but maybe you just dont understand her.

      • dianetrotter says:

        chills101, Geoge Zimmerman had his own truth and it allowed him to murder Trayvon Martin. Blanket indictments put people on the defensive and does not promote helpful dialog. Good people come in all colors and race should never be an “us” against “them.”

        • dianetrotter says:

          Nutcase B37 had her own truth and it led to a murderer going free.

        • chills101 says:

          Really that’s what allowed him? I just happen to disagree with you and agree on some things with her. Just like Fogen followers agree that he did nothing wrong. She has neva said go out and kill someone one for anything. Do you even listen to her?

          • dianetrotter says:

            Allowed him absolutely. His truth was that Trayvon was a thug, one of those F**kng whatevers that always gets away. His absurd truth was that his head was being banged into the concrete and that Trayvon said, “You gon die tonight mofo!” Among other lies, those were his truths. Racists choose to believe him.

            I certainly listen to her. She speaks in absolutes. All black people are good. She implied that all white people are bad in response to Taafe. I don’t remember the exact words. She said the education system is bad. My comments are beyond this tragic murder and apply to many of the general statements she makes. Someone will ask her a question and she t takes it as an opportunity to make a statement that has little, if anything, to do with the question asked.

  31. Brandy says:

    Could someone please tell me if they will be having rallies and vigils put on by Al Shapton in Sacramento, Calif this Saturday? I am having a hard time finding the names of the 100 cities that will be honoring Trayvon Martin this Saturday. I live between South Lake Tahoe and Sacramento and would love to attend. Thank you!

  32. dianetrotter says:

    Would you attorneys advise the jurors to lawyer up?

  33. Yorazigo says:

    Tracy and Sybrina will be on GMA tomorrow at 7:00 am

  34. Long time lurker, first time poster.

    Hi everyone,

    People are stating that the DOJ won’t do anything. They may want to look into the the Roland J. Bourgeois Jr. case in New Orleans. It took a while, but charges were eventually filed in the case. Like fogen, he was also a civilian. I have a little glimmer of hope because a number of cases that many believed were forgotten about after Katrina eventually evolved into indictments. All that we can do is sit and wait like Celie from “The Color Purple” to see what colors the walls will be next.

  35. sadlyyes says:

    remember the movie 12 Angry Men?,this was 6 PAMPERED WOMEN….ick!

  36. sadlyyes says:

    here is where the OUTSIDE info was transferred

    The jurors in the George Zimmerman murder trial were allowed to go bowling, shop at the mall, and go to the Ripley’s Believe It or Not Museum

    Story Highlights
    Jurors got steak dinners, trips during sequestration
    Movies and mall shopping also provided
    Experts say costs were reasonable, not overly luxurious

    The sequestration of the jury that ultimately acquitted George Zimmerman cost Florida taxpayers about $33,000 and allowed jurors creature comforts such as two dinners at Outback Steakhouse, a bowling excursion and a trip to the Ripley’s Believe It or Not Museum.

    The Seminole County Sheriff’s Office said in a statement that during the sequestration, “jurors had individual rooms and convened regularly in a suite for meals and to socialize.”

    The all-woman jury of six was sequestered beginning on Friday, June 21 and spent 22 nights at the Marriott in Lake Mary, Fla.

    “Jurors watched television and movies, exercised at the hotel fitness center, and spent weekends being visited by family and friends,” the sheriff’s statement said, noting that jurors could also request visits from members of the religious community. Anyone visiting members of the jury were asked to sign an agreement indicating they would not discuss the case with the jury member

    • Malisha says:

      Oh, so sign an agreement. And if you breach that agreement, who sues you for breach of contract? The court officers? What are the damages for breach? Huh?

      • sadlyyes says:

        this went on for many,many days,weeks,they assuredly shared info with outsiders,they had a much,much better social life than i

        disgraceful travesty!

        • Yorazigo says:

          Not sure if this pampering is common FL practice for a sequestered jury (which doesn’t happen very often), but Casey Anthony jury got the royal treatment also. They were sequestered for maybe 6-8 weeks, put up at exclusive resort, and also had “field trips” and entertainment. I believe they were also allowed family visits on weekends. Judge Belvin Perry also pampered them with special snacks every day and was looking out for their every comfort.

      • More like if the agreement isn’t met, the person cannot claim they were unaware when charges are brought.

  37. Puck says:

    Just got back from the vigil. If there’s anything on the local news, I’ll post links.

    I’m glad I went. After following this case, and the trial, so obsessively and with so much passion, since last spring, and still reeling from the verdict, I needed a catharsis. I needed to be with other people of my beautiful city who cared and who came together in solidarity to honor Trayvon and cry out for justice.

    I needed this.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      That’s wonderful, Puck.
      Win Win, sounds like.
      Standing up for Justice
      and Feeling good about it.

    • concernedczen says:

      As far as the DOJ finding GZ’s actions to be racially oriented, remember we don’t have all of the information.

      We don’t know what was on GZ’s phone that was so inflammatory that the court sealed it.

      • Puck says:

        I think you meant that for someone else, but WordPress has been acting up the past day or two so…

      • Malisha says:

        Incredible. Something on the phone is so inflammatory and “prejudicial” to the defendant that the court seals it. Is not KILLING SOMEONE so inflammatory and prejudicial? Isn’t this about a KILLING of a HUMAN BEING?

        • looneydoone says:

          In all homicides and suspected suicides, there is a nationally accepted protocol;
          interested parties (local LE AND the District Atty/State Atty) send a representative to witness the autopsy.
          Why were no officials present for the post-mortem exam of Trayvon Martin ?
          Was his autopsy expedited? Who ordered that it be a partial vs full autopsy? SPD had Trayvon’s ID verified by Tracey on Monday 27 Feb approx 10am….why was the ME’s office not notified (of a positive ID) until Wed 29 Feb approx 12:30pm via FAX from SPD ?

          • Malisha says:

            Wow, you’re right, and that’s another example of how this cover-up was working at every point along the line, in ever small and large way, from every angle. If one were to sit down and figure out every single piece of this cover-up it would —

            Hey wait a minute —

            Hey wait a minute —

            (I’m real tired right now, going to get some caffeine, looneydoone you’re a genius)

        • looneydoone says:

          following up on last night’s comment

          *FL Authority to order autopsy (specific areas, partial or full); that authority is granted to the State Atty. FL Statute 925.09

          *(in part) FL Title XLIV Section 872.01
          ….”if unidentified, after diligent search & inquiry it is established by the Chief Law Enforcement Officer (SA) having jurisdiction, then after reasonable time may….”

          1) per ME Bao, Trayvon’s post-mortem exam was the second autopsy he performed that morning, began at 10am…and there was another after Trayvon’s.

          2) SPD had a positive ID on Trayvon before Trayvon’s autopsy began ( Tracey ID’d him from photo)…..why was Trayvon in the morgue “unidentified” for 48+ hours after autopsy ? SPD delayed sending a fax to the ME’s office until Wed 29 Feb approx 12:30pm w/positive ID.

          3) This allowed SA to take/retain custody of Trayvon’s body, order the autopsy and specify it’s scope. They were not interested in a complete inquiry into how he was killed…..they were looking for drugs ! (hair and blood samples)

          4) this cover-up tactic also denied Trayvon’s parents to have their own representative attend the autopsy and represent their interests re; the death by homicide of their minor child.

    • KateW says:

      I wish I could have gone. I would love to travel to a rally! I need to find people in my city feeling the same way as well. We have to make this a movement! I still feel anger over this and the fact that so many key players failed this kid.

  38. riisey007 says:

    Okay so the jury was sequestered but went boling, had mani’s and pedi’s, and bowling. All places with t.v.’s. They had family visits on weekends so now we know how Taffe and company knew about the jury hold out, B37 husband. he just won’t shut up. It seems that Juror B37 can’t shut up.

    • Yorazigo says:

      For the life of me, I can’t imagine why HLN is having Taffe on these shows. It’s like he’s got a regular job on HLN now!

      Wonder if Junior is jealous that Taffe’s getting all this attention?

  39. lsimon3321 says:

    Can anyone appeal the decision based upon the improper or faulty jury instructions? It seems to me that Judge Nelson wasn’t the tough no nonsense judge she was played up to be. She was rattled by the defense often. I almost felt that she was in favor of the defense and not just because the law supposedly starts from the premise of innocence. She allowed him to use SYG without having to testify. They disrespected her and the jurors and she did nothing but cave in to them imo.

  40. You all have thoughtful comments says:


  41. Jeanette says:

    I noticed a few commenters above posed similar questions that I had as well and I’m not sure if anyone has been able to track down an answer yet–is there any solid legal basis (statute, case law, rules of court, etc.) for allowing stand your ground terminology and criteria into jury instructions when a Defendant has waived a SYG hearing and presents a standard self defense argument or is the judge able to include it at will?

    • That’s part of the pattern instruction given on self-defense and it isn’t the problem with the instruction. The problem is the failure to instruct on the aggressor.

      Another problem is the failure to instruct on culpable negligence as a basis for manslaughter (h/t to Mataharley for bringing that to my attention).

      • Jeanette says:

        Thank you for replying, Professor Leatherman and thank you for the heads up on culpable negligence. I’m thinking perhaps I got the rest backwards.

        In trying to make sense of the entire sequence of trial events, I’m struggling to discern which elements of the the jury instructions the judge was required to include under clearly established law and which were subject to mere judicial discretion.


  42. bettykath says:

    Trayvon’s death is a tragedy and his killer getting away with (so far), is a pile-on. But there is a bright side to this. Look at how it has mobilized people! There is a focus on SYG. There is a focus on the disparity of how Blacks are treated in the justice system. There is a focus on the injustice of the woman sentenced to 20 years for a warning shot at DV abuser who was in violation of the law by being in her house in spite of protection order. Maybe there can be a different outcome for the two AA men who were tried to use SYG or self-defense but were found guilty (superficial look says they were railroaded).

    • lsimon3321 says:

      We’ve experienced this focus before. The real test is to continue to focus and put feet to the fire until there is a meaningful change. Not stopping at signing petitions but contacting your elected officials is another good idea. keep on it. Gather supporters if you can and help move ppl to realize that it matters to them. It should be known that this could happen to anyone not only a black youth. I want it to matter before it happens to “someone that “matters”.

  43. Thrace says:

    Taaffe is on Dr Drew too – spouting off about out of wedlock black births. This from a miserable human being who obviously abused his ex-wife and estranged now dead sons.

    • anita says:

      I have to confess, I really hate HLN & all of the hosts, but after Pol.Nat. on msnbc I have 1hr. to fill on t.v. I think we need to see the crazy asses so we know what they’re up to. You’re right at least NG is on Trayvons side. But I think she is the biggest whore of all. ~for Thrace

  44. riisey007 says:

    Larry Elder is a jackass if you ever get a chance to watch the Piers Morgan show you should see this piss ant. Piers is trying to tell him that Rachel suffered an illness when she was a child but this baffoon keeps talking over him so that he can get out all of the 50 years of anger he has in him. He is black but he is a mess.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I decided not to watch once I learned he was going to be on Piers Morgan.

      • Thrace says:

        Like watching a black Alex Jones (white conspiracy kook of infowars).

      • colin black says:

        His Name is Peers Moron

        As we in the UK have hhad to put up with this bufoon for years

        Why the fluck you gave him a job an a top rated one is a mystery to us Brits

        It the equivelent of us asking Jerry Springer to come over an host Question Time

        We called him Peerer Moron

        Because he talks pish an is an idiot.

        The man was sacked from every editorial job he had in the uk

        He published front page exclusives at the time of ABBU dABBI Mericam prison atocites of british troops doing simmilar.

        But they were bogus fabricated staged an he paid 50 grand to some dodgy asians for the photos

        A HOAX AN A CON.




        an pease America keep him you are a match made in ????

        • cielo62 says:

          colin~ people like his accent. it’s cute.


        • anita says:

          ~colin I know Omarosa & Piers hate each other. I know he worked forRupert Murdoch & News of the World rag. Murdoch owns lying ass FOX news. They all suck. Piers is a pompous ass, for sure.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          I don’t like his past, but he seems to be doing some fairly good work here. His picking away at the American gun problem has been good. On the bad side, those shows put people on that really shouldn’t be there and sometimes Piers isn’t as hard on them as he should be.

          And it’s true – you can get away with a lot in America with a British accent. We love it!

        • Cercando Luce says:

          Thanks to the BBC, almost all Americans associate a British accent (any British accent) with superior perception, wit, and informed-ness.

    • chills101 says:

      He is not black….. Well maybe but definitely NOT African American. Im black n i see nothing in common. He looks white an he’s acting REAL suspICIOUS

  45. colin black says:

    diary73 says:
    July 17, 2013 at 8:04 pm
    Did he say, “…with time passing they start seeing what can we do about the present and the future and put aside their feelings about the past”?



    Lets sweep this under the carpet an in time other things will distract an we can move on wipe the slatye clean start afresh

    The platatudes an condesening dissregard for our intellegence is a bit like the universe

    Both have no visable boundarys

    Sei La Vi.

  46. riisey007 says:

    Larry Elder is a nut case. WTF is he saying? This man is really crazy!! He is rediculous. Why is it he feels he needs to rant like this. This is not getting him anywhere. He avoids the questions and is making the show about him. Piers Morgan should just shut his mic off. This is rediculous!!

  47. Thrace says:

    Larry Elder? (On Piers Morgan) sounds like the typical irrational right winger that screams about everything but the topic at hand.

    • riisey007 says:

      It is astounding, did he get his Black pass yet? cause if he hasn’t he must be getting it soon from the Republican party. It seems he never stopped to breathe, angry bastard. If he is so smart then why come across like that, you would think he would have calmed down and made his point.

    • chills101 says:

      Sumthin wrong wit him.

  48. colin black says:

    udy75201 says:
    July 17, 2013 at 7:46 pm
    I didn’t get to see the whole trial; in fact, probably only a bit of it all told. But I was struck by the lack of objection from the prosecution. I thought it was because the case was so freakin’ obvious, and they wanted the defense to look like the obnoxious ones (which they were). I saw John Guy before the verdict. I even commented on how stressed he looked. I wonder if he knew…


    At least one mysterys been solved for me the non eye contact with the defence ie foggage by the jururs as they shuffled in an oot.

    Everyone rackoned that was a good sign for the State.

    With 20 /20 hinsight .

    We now koow it was to stop them flasheing a big toothy gin an thumbs up wink wink..

  49. diary73 says:

    Did he say, “…with time passing they start seeing what can we do about the present and the future and put aside their feelings about the past”?



    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I am astonished.


      • concernedczen says:

        Proving why he is friends with Paula Deen.

        • anita says:

          Okay, I didn’t know Jimmy Carter was friends with Paula Deen, but makes sense, they’re both from Georgia. This is not the 1st stupid, wrong shit Pres. Carter has ever said. He ran Pres. Clinton in the ground about the Lewinsky scandal. I, for one , have never forgot this. He was the 1st pres. I could ever vote for. He’s old now, but I know he would never be on fogens side. He said legally & morally . Big difference. Back in 1976 election, almost all blacks voted for him. No way there is a racist bone in Pres. Jimmy Carters’ body .

          • Two sides to a story says:

            For the most part he’s a pretty admirable guy, though he does have his moments.

    • Malisha says:

      Oh he’s just full of it. Touch of dementia maybe?

      • anita says:

        Carter has pissed me off a lot of times, but as far as I know, if you ,Malisha, know of racist things, I want to know about it. Did he recently take up for ol’ Paula? I don’t know, if he did that pisses me off. Outside of Pres.s’ Kennedy ,Johnson,Carter, Clinton, & Obama, none of them have ever been a racist. Would you prefer those damn republicans?

    • Tzar says:

      the wagons are circling
      google “social proofing”

  50. commenting says:

    Lack of objection, not a big deal to me as long as the cross questioning refuted, the witnesses claim, but the cross questioning was pathetic. I thought the state was simple introdcing the evidence as was waiting on the closing arguement to put it all together, I waited and waited and it did not happen, I was told that new arguement can’t be introduced in the closing arguement, but I heard MOM state in the closing arguement ==> although I haven’t focused on this during the trial but…and he went on to explain his arguement

  51. colin black says:

    Been on a journey together.

    Its bareley begun Trayvon brought us together.

    Never to be tort atwain.

    This is my two special songs I share with ll my commrades in arms to stop the harm to buy the farm.

    As proud Edinburgh born a n bread In the Port of Leith Docks Aan a fanatical HIBEE.


    The Cheif the Proclaimers refer to in the song Sunshine On Leith means GOG.


    an those that ve known me the radio head creep neeeeds no explenation.

    Both thesae songs are the only ones to be played when a pass.

    Wich wont be to soon but hey live every day as if its your last.

    An your bound to be right at least once.

  52. Judy75201 says:

    I didn’t get to see the whole trial; in fact, probably only a bit of it all told. But I was struck by the lack of objection from the prosecution. I thought it was because the case was so freakin’ obvious, and they wanted the defense to look like the obnoxious ones (which they were). I saw John Guy before the verdict. I even commented on how stressed he looked. I wonder if he knew…

    • Thrace says:

      My opinion only – I believe they knew with the FL law, the lackluster SPD investigation and the seminole county demographics they had a weak case.

  53. Brandy says:

    I hope each and everyone of the jurors live with regret the rest of their lives for letting a lying murdering go free!! They had all the evidence and they turned their backs on Justice for Trayvon. They turned their backs on Trayvons Parents and the majority of this country that wanted Justice so badly for Trayvon! I feel so much more will come about this jury. It is far from over!

    • LiveByTheGulf says:

      Tonight on AC360, they described how the jury was sequestered. They each had a private room at the Marriott. They ate out. Family was able to visit on the weekend. They even set aside a separate room so they could socialize with each other. That’s not the picture I had of jury sequestoring.

      • dianetrotter says:

        Visits on the weekend? OMG! I know they didn’t bug their conversations. They had plenty of time to get messages to the outside and get information. This was a joke.

        • Thrace says:

          Family had to sign a statement not to talk about the case. That was the only safeguard as far as personal visits. Deputies monitored all other activity like – phone, internet, mail, tv.

      • Brandy says:

        Hi LBTG, they also went to movies, the museum. They even had spa treatments! WTH!!

        • Thrace says:

          I commented in an up thread that it sounded like a vacation to me…….but I’m not married and my child is an adult.

          • Judy75201 says:

            I’d love to be “sequestered” like that lol.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            it doesn’t strike me as outrageous or anything. in fact, even if i disagree with their verdict, this is small compensation for not being in your own home with family for 3 weeks, 24 hours a day.

        • aussie says:

          I wouldn’t begrudge them the holiday. The problem is the idea of sequestrations is to be NOT IN TOUCH with the outside world.

    • anita says:

      ~Brandy You & all the others here. I’m speechless about this farce of a jury. I just can’t f—ing believe it. So many different factors came together to equal this complete unfair, unjust outcome. Please, I want some sort of recourse & justice for Trayvon.

  54. LiveByTheGulf says:

    Julius Denson II is sending out a petition to amend the SYG law.
    Please consider adding your name to the list.


  55. commenting says:

    And y didn’t Bernie depose any of the persons who could paint gz as confrontational, so he coulc call them to the stand to refute the claims that gz is nonconfrontational as stated by a witness over and over, but he introduced past NEN calls made by gz wher gz stated he did not want to confront the suspicious person

    • Brandy says:

      Good Point! I am guessing because the Judge wouldn’t allow Georgie’s past behavior in the trial.

      • commenting says:

        But the witness who reffered to gz as nonconfrontational, gave an opportunity for his past behavior to be brought up, like when Jenna said on the stand that she knows gz as a nice person, she gave Bernie the opportunity to talk about the assault on a police officer and the restraining order from his girlfreind

  56. commenting says:

    West made sure to emphasize on the part where Rachel jeantel said I could a tell it was trayvon, Rachel explained by saying because trayvon has a baby voice, west purpose was too put doubt in the jurors mind…..so what about the part where gz said his head was hit by a sign while Trayvon was bashing it on the concrete….y wasn’t that highighted??

  57. Yorazigo says:

    Everyone – please don’t be offended by my question:

    I’m watching Vinnie Politan interview Rachel Jeantel. I also watched Piers interview her and I just loved her. My question is: The Rachel on the stand seems to have much darker skin than the interview Rachel. Does anyone think the producers are playing with lights or something? Or is this interviewee the same girl?

  58. commenting says:

    Just remembered…Witness 18..stated on an interview (Anderson) that the struggle on the ground took place at least 4 feet from the sidewalk, and I would believe that she was in a good location to tell the difference beetween the grass and sde walk…but Bernie neer questionEd her on the stand about that…I wondered why

    • groans says:

      Black America’s belief in the possibility of receiving justice from our legal system is eroded by every verdict that fails to hold a killer who is not black accountable for the death of a black man or boy.

      Hey, JUROR B37: Do you still feel “special” enough to write a book and be on TV? Well, guess what: You’re nothing but ORDINARY — just one more of a centuries-long line of ordinary bigoted jurors. Ho-hum….

      Slither back to Cesspool County, FL and get out of our faces. There ain’t NOTHING special about you!

  59. Brandy says:

    Vinnie Politan interviewing Rachel J right now on Nancy Grace. He is sitting in for her

  60. Judy75201 says:

    Regardless, I think the jurors had enough information to know exactly what happened and to do the right thing. B37 is trying to rehabilitate her reputation, but she can’t walk back from everything she said on AC360. The 4Jurors can’t distance themselves from the VERDICT that THEY handed down. The blame is on them, in my opinion.

    • Susan Moore says:

      I agree. She completely believed everything GZ said, and found RJ not credible. She thought TM attacked GZ because he was angry about being followed. Now she is blaming the jury instructions and the law–she’s full of it.

      • groans says:

        B37 couldn’t see an angry white failure of a man, because her preconception of angry black teenagers loomed too large in her head, where formed decades ago. That is … prejudice.

        And, just as cowardly as the killer she set loose, now her verdict isn’t HER fault – it’s the LAW’S fault! Had nothing to do with how her prejudiced mind viewed the facts!

  61. Thrace says:

    Long article about the defense jury consultant. Needless to say the trial was lost at jury selection.

    SANFORD, Fla. — One of the people instrumental in helping George Zimmerman’s defense team pick an all-women jury says that he decided months in advance that a female panel brought the best chance for acquittal.

    Robert Hirschhorn, a jury consultant with more than 28 years experience, told USA TODAY that women are better listeners, less judgmental, and would more easily understand the fear Zimmerman felt when he shot Trayvon Martin.


    Hirschhorn also knew he would need to eliminate potential jurors who held anti-gun views and who were not completely honest with their knowledge of the case and the opinions they had formed.


    Hirschhorn’s favorite juror was a black man who was a gun owner who frequently watched FOX News. The state eliminated him.

    Juror B37, who was the first juror to speak publicly, was Hirschhorn’s second favorite and one he thought the state would strike. Hirschhorn thought Juror B37 was honest, sincere, and thoughtful.

    entire article @ http://tinyurl.com/ke6yxqd

    • concernedczen says:

      Hirschorn is a liar. His strategy was low-information, racist white jurors.

      He didn’t want that black Fox viewer on the jury and the state was stupid to eliminate him.

  62. 2dogsonly says:

    JN made them bring back two jurors, one being B37.
    Fix was in from day one but there is massive backlash.
    hope you’ll have signed NAACP and new email but only for legitimate (no ranting) information that was not presented at trial. Crick @ bcc.list has already sent info.

    Hopefully, tchiopi and whonoze will send their clubhouse, weather, car to ped work.

    Email is —Sanford.Florida@usdoj.gov

    Please sign whitehouse, NAACP pet. And call out.
    The fact they have hired counselor s mean the fall out from verdict is having impact.

    I had posted about missing jury instruction Sunday but don’t see it.

    Finally, Prosecutors are very defensive and other side seems to be blaming each other. NOT behavior for jury feeling comfortable with verdict. And not typical for attorneys to publicly bash other side.

    Massive protests and over one million signatures. literay agent already cancelled B 37 book due to twitter outcry.

    • 2dogsonly says:

      Sorry not call out(typo), NAACP petition, Change.org, and
      Whitehouse petition

      Rachael will be back on tonight, Political Nation and HLN at 8

      This massive movement may cause actual real change. At least, it’s on Daily Show, Colbert Report twice, CNN, MSNBC,Piers Morgan. None of media is favorable to GZ’s verdict.All over twitter!

      I hadn’t read about MOM & West living large in NY, bet that gets under Jr’s skin, as well as GZ. I imagine they smoozed their client and family and now they get to celebrate big time while GZ is still hated in real world. No one, not even KKK, ever openly admits being racists and yet that truth is being very openly highlighted.People are now openly acknowledging injustice done to Trayvon….don’t hear any media shows except the B37 one on AC360 trumpeting GZ not guilty.

      Even Newt Gingrich said case was all about race and if you don’t believe this you live under a rock and needs to have Federal investigation.That’s not a typo!!

    • groans says:

      @ 2dogsonly, what the heck does this mean?

      …Prosecutors are very defensive and other side seems to be blaming each other. … And not typical for attorneys to publicly bash other side.

      Prosecutors defensive? “Other side” … does that mean the defense team? Blaming each other for what?

      I don’t know what you’re talking about, but would love to know. Could you please elaborate and/or provide links? Thanks.

  63. anita says:

    Now frank taaffe thinks he’s an expert on Marissas’ case. Sorry, is that the name of the girl who shot the ceiling & got 20 yrs.? that is really awful. anyway , taaffe is a commentator for HLN, I guess. this shit is sick & out of control. oh, by the way, i like Omarosa very much.

    • Thrace says:

      I can’t believe it. He’s a legal eagle now? The go to guy for FL legal opinion? JVM is going to end up losing me as a viewer if she keeps trotting him out on her show.

    • Vickis Smith says:


      No, Taaffe is not a commentator for HLN- they have him there to represent Zimmerman’s side.

      Some here don’t seem to realize what a gift he is for Trayvon’s side: look at how he comes across- his personality. This is the reason HLN has him on several shows. Would we like to see instead some charming person in this role?

  64. diary73 says:

    If only the jurors would have looked at O’Mara’s example of the concrete being a weapon and realized that Trayvon NOR GZ were near that “weapon” when Trayvon was killed. EVERYONE said that the encounter took place on the GRASS. Trayvon’s body was on the GRASS several feet from the sidewalk. There was no threat, real or imagined, when GZ pulled that trigger.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Yeah, if O’Mara were honest he would have brought a square of
      mowed, green grass.

  65. Milwaukee man, 76, found guilty of intentional homicide in 13-year-old neighbor’s shooting death

  66. Brandy says:

    Hi Professor, I have a question. Cant the DOJ also investigate friends of the murderer like his buddy Frank Taffee and his other friends that are clearly Racist? There has to be a trevor trove of info on Facebook, twitter and others avenues of Z communications with his fellow racist!

  67. dianetrotter says:

    Is it unreasonable to expect Judge Nelson to say something?

  68. anita says:

    If anyone wants to see frank taffee get his ass chewed out. JVM show on HLN has Omarosa right now.

    • Thrace says:

      It makes me sick to see him still on TV. I had reached the point where I started turning the channel when he was on any show but Nancy’s. At least Nancy calls him out on his uninformed and racist BS.

      • riisey007 says:

        Yeah I have had to turn the t.v. I think it is time to stop letting him be on their show because it really is insensitive.

      • chills101 says:

        Nancy is a fake. It’s all entertainment. Nobodies askn Frank bout that little tiny incident he had with that yellow line that kept moving. I betcha its the road fault. Im surprise they didn try to blame Trayvon, the car, hell me.

  69. ericadec3,TX says:

    Can Trayvon’s paren sue Florida for wrongful death?

    • No, but they can sue GZ and the US Department of Justice can prosecute him for a committing a hate crime in federal court.

      • Malisha says:

        Professor, if there were complaints made to SPD about Fogen running around RGL with a loaded gun harassing Blacks, I think the SPD and other defendants SHOULD be sued for wrongful death, at least for negligence if not for something worse.

  70. Brandy says:

    IMO, B37 had an agenda from the very beginning. I have listened to her comments and I am so disturb that she was able to make it on the jury to begin with. She was pro Georgie long before she got the jury summons. I pray that perjury charges are brought against this lying,, deceitful ignorant women!

    • Thrace says:

      She has the mindset that young blacks are scary and had no problem believing the defense and discounting anything that pointed to GZ lying. I would suggest the other two who voted Not guilty on the first vote think the same way.

      • dianetrotter says:

        And her book about the NG verdict would support all of her sick, racist beliefs.

      • chills101 says:

        I have come to learn that there are aliens among us. It’s a joke people. I understand these people. That town was perfect before all this happen.In their eyes,heart, and soul Sanford was just perfect. What’s a dead black kid to them. Why should we expect them to care. Privilege people dont care bout nothing but their kind. My opinion only _________ My grandmother gives a shhh bout the cost of tea n China. Has nothing in relation. Sanford PD, Fogen, the privileged people gives a shhh bout Trayvon. Money,power is nothing but misery. I see the sickness in the PRIVILEGED. People we’re BLESSED. R.I.P SLIM your death will never be in vain.

    • groans says:

      I agree. And suddenly, emphasizing her already-obvious shallowness, today she’s apparently “all about” empathy for Trayvon and his family. What a phoney!

      And – oh, yeah – today, the verdict wasn’t HER fault due to her viewing every piece of evidence in a defense-biased view. No, no. It’s the LAW’S fault! She could not possibly have looked at the evidence any differently or reached any different conclusion … because of the LAW! 🙄

      Reminds me of, “It was all God’s [Florida’s] Plan.” (Puke!)

  71. Woow! says:

    Has there been a hearing on MOM motion for sanctions against BDLR? I remember when Mantei was telling her about that guy that sat in the court room and she snapped back that both side did things they shouldn’t have and Mantei, BLDR, and Guy looked at each other like huh….. that should have been a tale tale sign.

    • Thrace says:

      Just watched a report on WESH about that issue. O’Mara is pushing ahead with it. He’s trying to get funds thru the sanctions to pay his and West’s fees. Talking Head Atty Hornsby who has been anti-prosecution didn’t see it happening. He did say that O’Mara could sue thru Federal court for funds that the prosecution denied GZ’s rights by withholding evidence.

  72. riisey007 says:

    I always felt like all the things I went through as a little girl and throughout my school years were worth being called the N word to my face because I was able to educate myself and move forward but now I am realizing day by day that I am still paying, it seems we will never be accepted as equal to other races. Why were we chosen to be outcasts?

  73. Brandy says:

    Excellent interview with RJ on Politics Nation! Bless her Heart. She is one strong young lady.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I just returned here after watching her interview, Brandy.

      Thanks for the heads up!

      She is an amazing, young woman.

      She said “He couldn’t break me” and, West did not.

      What a role model! She knows she is a better person than West.

      Goldie Taylor commented afterwards with Al Sharpton saying that the juror who was interviewed revealed her cultural disconnect by say “Those People” and “Them”…….not indicating that AA are part of our community. This says it all!

  74. Leave George Zimmerman alone, and to fire Eric Holder.
    1,460 signatures.

    Compare to ;Civil Rights Prosecution of George Zimmerman by United States Department of Justice for death of Trayvon Martin
    31,566 signatures.


    AC called indirectly the rat a predator.

    AC don’t have from a tactical point of view interests to bring down state officers and city officers in relation with Martin murder,who are the ones who can fix this mess? Exactly an outside agency and held accountable everyone included the acquitted murderer.

    The expert fighting corruption and hate crimes is the DOJ

  75. Puck says:

    Heading out to the vigil in a bit. There was a severe thunderstorm watch in effect until 10 p.m., which would have deterred many from attending I’m sure, but the storm happened a couple of hours ago (it was insane) and I think we’re in the clear. Over 950 people expected.

  76. Patricia J-C says:

    @Professor Leatherman: Please don’t think I am being paranoid, but someone needs to look into possible jury tampering. Frank Taafe stated on HLN, before the jury verdict came in, that the jury was 5 to 1. He was asked to leave the courtroom and the courthouse grounds. I think jury tampering was alive and well during this whole process. Frank Taafe also had a freudian slip stating he was there the night Trayvon was shot, then suddenly corrected himself. jane Velez-Mitchell called him on it but the other panelists never caught what he was saying. I just find it odd that someone, who supposedly had limited access to GZ would know so much, particularly when he said “Trayvon should have answered George’s questions.” Miraculously this never came up. I am so hurt by what has happened it is affecting my health. Thanks for providing this forum.

    • This whole case stinks right now and I would not be surprised if jury tampering occurred.

      • Woow! says:

        Could anything be done if it is found that the jury was tampered with? Fines, jail time…etc

      • Brandy says:

        I have been thinking the same thing too! Just the way GZ acted right before and after verdict reading was very bizarre. It was like GZ knew the verdict. There is so much in this case that stinks esp from the defense side.

      • The information about the hold-out could have been a coincidence. But there were theories that Z had an accomplice who fled the scene and that accomplice was Taafe. This is entirely consistent with Z’s background as he allowed a friend to take the fall for him spending a year in prison.

        • Thrace says:

          I think Frank was guessing and talking out his ass as usual – A broke clock is right at least once a day. There was a murder case in NC recently where some idiot on Facebook claimed her hairdresser had been in touch with a juror by text during deliberations & was reporting what she was told. A news station reported these posts to the SBI (NC’s version of the FBI) and it ended up to be a bunch of baloney. First off, the poster wasn’t even a woman and didn’t even live in the area. It was a man who lived in another part of the state that liked to troll and rile people up.

        • Kimmi says:

          Did they ever find out who it was who sped off in a car?

      • looneydoone says:

        “We kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight”
        Bruce Cockburn, songwriter

  77. parrot says:

    Send any tips to further the DOJ’s investigation of whether Z violated TM’s rights to:


  78. Woow! says:

    Poor jurors need counseling….well they are all white so their conscience is telling them that it’s highly unlikely George Zimmerman will be moving into any Black neighborhoods so he may move to yours.

  79. Olivia says:

    I looked at the cardboard shapes again.

    The way O’Marra propped them on the wall, it appears the difference in height between the murderer and Trayvon is more than a foot.

    So, my question is why in the hello did the prosecution not object?

    Why did judge Nelson allow the lie? She had access to the height and weight data.

    ANYONE can see that O’Marra’s cardboard shapes are not an accurate representation.

    They let O’Marra lie to jurors.

    • Thrace says:

      Closing arguments are not evidence. I think O’Mara got away with stretching the truth about height due to the 7-11 video and clerk’s testimony that he was 5’10”. He rigged up the cardboard cutout to include inches that he felt Trayvon’s sneakers and hoodie added to his height.

  80. ada4750 says:


    776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
    (1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
    (2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
    (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
    (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.


    If Rachel spoke the truth maybe (i am not a lawyer) (1) applies. Let say it doesn’t. Then 2(a) doesn’t apply according to GZ’s minor injuries and my previous comment. But maybe 2(b) does. Notice that 2(a) and (b) are negations of negation.


    Sorry i sent them at the wrong post.

    • The situation was 2(a).

      GZ was the aggressor and he provoked the use of force against him and he did not reasonably believe he was in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and he did not exhaust all reasonable means to escape the danger he was in because he was never in any danger.

  81. ada4750 says:

    B37 makes us understand the terrible work of the prosecution to explain their view of the case. The proof is that B37 didn’t understand anything about the importance of Rachel Jeantel testimony.

    B37 basically says that Rachel corroborates the testimony of GZ. Unbelievable!!! By cons, she believed GZ when he says he was surprised by Trayvon. This is in flagrant contradiction with Rachel. But there is more.

    – Rachel says if true, then GZ lied on a crucial point and the jury should be very skeptical towards him.

    – If Rachel says the truth then GZ is the initial aggressor. This fact changes dramatically the psychological evaluation of imminent danger.

    Example: x and y do not know before they met.

    Scenario 1: x attacks y, y defends himself and x finds himself in a precarious situation.

    Scenario 2: y attacks x, and x finds himself in the same precarious situation.

    The psychological effect of the second scenario is much larger than in the first because x probably has no idea of ​​the motivation of y. While in the first, x knows that y only responded to his aggression.

    It is the same with Trayvon and GZ. If GZ pursued and reached Trayvon, his justification for self-defense is much less justifiable than if Trayvon did attack by surprise. That is why the testimony of Rachel was so important. O’Mara made a big deal about the psychological aspect.

  82. ada4750 says:

    Back on B37

    JUROR: I don’t think it’s really racial. I think it’s just everyday life, the type of life that they live, and how they’re living, in the environment that they’re living in.
    COOPER: So you didn’t find her credible as a witness?
    JUROR: No.

    MY COMMENT: She might not like the message so she rejects it pretending that she doesn’t like the messenger.

    COOPER: So did you find her testimony important in terms of what she actually said?
    JUROR: Well, I think the most important thing is the time that she was on the phone with Trayvon. So you basically, hopefully if she heard anything, she would say she did, but the time coincides with George’s statements and testimony of time limits and what had happened during that time.
    COOPER: Explain that?
    JUROR: Well, because there was a — George was on the 9-1-1 call while she was on the call with Trayvon, and the times coincide, and I think there was two minutes between when George hung up from his 9-1-1 call, to the time Trayvon and Rachel had hung up.

    So really nothing could have happened because the 9-1-1 call would have heard the nonemergency call that George had called, heard something happening before that.

    MY COMMENT: Do you understand anything? Cooper did not understand and I don’t either. We’re talking about one of the most important aspects of the trial and she goes completely beside.

    COOPER: George Zimmerman obviously did not testify, but his testimony essentially was brought into the trial through those videotapes, a number of videotapes. He walked police through a re-enactment of what he said happened. How important were those videotapes to you?

    JUROR: I don’t really know, because I mean, watching the tapes, there’s always something in the back saying, is it right? Is it consistent? But with all the evidence of the phone calls, and all the witnesses that he saw, I think George was pretty consistent and told the truth, basically. I’m sure there were some fabrications, enhancements, but I think pretty much it happened the way George said it happened.

    MY COMMENT: Sure, GEORGE(!) fabricated parts and enhanced others but it doesn’t matter. I believe him. Videotapes? Bah … who cares.

    COOPER: Do you think Trayvon Martin threw the first punch?
    JUROR: I think he did.
    COOPER: What makes you think that?
    JUROR: Because of the evidence of on the T, on the sidewalk, where George says he was punched, there was evidence of his flashlight and keys there, and then a little bit further down, there was a flashlight that he was carrying. And I think that’s where Trayvon hit him.

    MY COMMENT: No comment!!!

    COOPER: Did you feel like you understood the instructions from the judge? Because they were very complex. I mean, reading them, they were tough to follow.

    JUROR: Right. And that was our problem. I mean, it was just so confusing what — with what and what we could apply to what. Because I mean, there was a couple of them in there that wanted to find him guilty of something. And after hours and hours and hours of deliberating over the law and reading it over and over and over again, we decided there’s just no way — other place to go.

    MY COMMENT: We didn’t understand anything then not guilty.

    COOPER: So whether it was George Zimmerman getting out of the vehicle, whether he was right to get out of the vehicle, whether he was a wannabe cop, whether he was overeager, none of that in the final analysis, mattered. What mattered was those seconds before the shot went off, did George Zimmerman fear for his life?
    JUROR: Exactly. That’s exactly what happened.

    MY COMMENT: No comment other that after 16 months of passionate debates and 3 weeks of trial, the case rested in this empty shell.

    • That POS open the door for rapist and predators attacking
      citizens and claim self defense because following is not a crime
      after the fact(rape or murder)

    • Vickis Smith says:


      Egad- even more confusing when I read her comments. And I was also trying to figure out what in the heck she meant re the 911 and non-emergency calls. I wonder if she knows what she meant.

    • aussie says:

      “..the type of life that they live, and how they’re living, in the environment that they’re living in…”””

      RACIST through and through and doesn’t even know it. She’s talking about an AMERICAN. It would be a fair statement about someone living their 10th year in a desert refugee camp, or an uincontacted nomadic tribe in the Andes. NOT about another American. Dripping with “she’s an “other”,. not one of us.

      “..was two minutes between when George hung up from his 9-1-1 call, to the time Trayvon and Rachel had hung up….”

      she has the times back to front. She seems to think GZ was still on the phone after Rachel “hung up” therefore Rachel could not have heard what she claimed, because if anything had happened then the “911” operator would have heard it too.

      STUPID PROSECUTION they should have called one witness to measure out the times on the map, with the NEN call, LIKE WE ALL DID and make sure the jury understood GZ had a full 2 minutes to HUNT.

      Though wouldn’t have made a difference. She says they spend 9+ hours reading the “law” over and over, instead of looking at the damn evidence.

  83. Trained Observer says:

    Judge Nelson did not instruct the jury that an aggressor cannot claim self-defense and that a person who aggressively follows another person is an aggressor. That was the heart of the prosecution case. — Frederick Leatherman

    Quite obviously, this oversight, whether deliberate or otherwise, is disturbing beyond belief.

    Am still catching up on previous blog postings and trial progress since dropping out July 10th.

    My hope is that the feds now aggressively seek Justice for Trayvon, without local-yokel political interference.

    Meanwhile, I have committed to not spend one thin dime in Seminole County for business or pleasure.

    Moreover, I have suggested that tourism honchos consider a new bumper sticker campaign — “Florida’s Seminole County: Where Murderers Go Free.

  84. groans says:

    Wow. The more things I hear that B37 said, the more biased and stupid she sounds!

    I thought (and I’ve said) that she was one of the ones that the prosecution tried to dismiss. But now I’m thinking I’ve been mistaken about that. Can anyone clear that up for me, please?

    Was it B76 and E6 that the prosecution tried to dismiss but the judge wouldn’t allow them to dismiss?


    • Thrace says:

      Yes, it was those two. I read where the defense jury consultant thought B37 would be a prosecution strike.

    • anita says:

      Yes we tried to dismiss her. she’s the one that referred to the protests as riots 3 f—ing times in her dior viore. JN like -reseated her, seriously. She i s the reason I 1st posted here. Before I had only followed you guys for months. I knew that crazy witch was bad news, by alot of the shit she said.

      • anita says:

        Maybe I’m wrong about how it came down & that racist got on the jury. But, she sure as hell had no place there, given her almost devotion like way of looking at fogen & his lies. I still cannot believe anyone could be that blind. sorry don’t mean to confuse anybody.

        • Vickis Smith says:

          I can’t understand with a voir dire such as hers she wasn’t dismissed; it should have been patently obvious how she would view this “boy of color” (her description during the TV interview). I honestly believe that she hasn’t a clue as to her being bigoted.

      • Rachael says:

        I she the one the prosecution was also worried might know some of the witnesses?

        • anita says:

          I think so. See all i knew when they seated the jury was b37 was real bad cause of the riot talk. JN seated the jury so fast, I don’t know for sure how she got on, but I was very pissed & couldn’t believe she was going to be on the jury.

          • bettykath says:

            The notes that I took show that both the state and the defense accepted her. Bad judgement by the state for the reasons you say..

  85. Olivia says:

    Also – the shoes.

    The murderer’s shoes were scuffed, dirty, and wet on the front toe area.

    Were Trayvon’s?

  86. ladystclaire says:

    Hello guys, watch Rachel on PoliticsNation as she talks about the defense with Rev.

  87. Olivia says:

    The inflatable doll was not an accurate depiction of the murderer. The doll was slender. The murderer was thick.

    O’Marra lifted the doll from the SHOULDERS and slammed it back down, but the murderer’s SHOULDERS were not bruised?

    No whip-lash? No broken neck, or back injury?

    Totally unrealistic depiction.

    Again, an “illustration” based on lies, meant to deceive the jurors.

    The judge permitted the deception and the prosecutor did not object.

    • chills101 says:

      I feel exactly like you, but do you realize that people in Sanford would argue us down, as if we’re crazy… I kno people like that. They only believe what benefits their interest.

  88. Shari/human being with no nation says:

    I watch a lot of crime TV like Law&Order also novels from Grisham. Someone please explain this news about the “sequestered” jury. Nelson went on and on about how they were sequestered and she wanted to respect the jury’s time. Well the news has released details and it seems this was not a traditional sequester. They were NOT in a bubble cut off from the world.

    • Woow! says:

      No they were not because they had access to cell phone computers and TV.

      • Thrace says:

        Deputies monitored all their phone, internet,television, reading and mail activity.

        Pretty much this would have been a vacation for me since I’m not married and my child is an adult. But it might have been a different feeling for ones on the jury married with children at home.

        CFNEWS13 has the complete statement from the court about the sequester.


        • bettykath says:

          I’m with you. I’d volunteer to be a sequestered jury in FL in Jan – March. Just need to have someone care for my dog, but that can be done.

        • Malisha says:


          THen we all know what went wrong, don’t we?

          Those deputies — the ones who were buddies with Fogen, the ones who kept Trent out of the courtroom. THOSE deputies. The ones who are friends with Lee, with Serino, with Singleton, with Osterman. And who are friendds with West’s little dumb blond girls. Yup.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        they had TV without news station, no phones in their rooms, no computers, and cel phones were held by deputies except for brief periods of monitored phone calls daily.


      • Vickis Smith says:

        Wouldn’t this being called “sequestration” be an unholy joke?

  89. anita says:

    Rachel is coming on Pol Nation With Rev. Al any minute. From the preview it sounds like she will reveal more than on Piers.

  90. caligirl says:

    I will always believe had the timeline been more emphasised by the prosecution…the minute amount of time involved from witness testimony that altrication went from…Raised voices to grappling…with gz sayin lights comming on John yelling calling 911 plus gz knowing police on way proved no need for LEATHAL FORCE!!! Hence gz had no right to use of leathal force self defence.

    • believeinkarma says:

      You got it.

    • dianetrotter says:

      They could have had video of GZ on top, banging Trayvon’s head on the concrete, sitting on him, and then shooting him, the verdict would have remained the same. The sole purpose of this group was the NG verdict.

      • chills101 says:

        Y want some people just get that thru their head. The fight was fixed…. DOJ can’t do nothing either. We have to fight fire with fire. As long as we play by their rules then you should know house always win. We have to hit them where it hurt. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Boycott any/every thing/person that’s tied to Florida and Fogen

    • Vickis Smith says:

      Remember his excuse: Trayvon supposedly had spotted the gun and had said “You got a piece; you’re gonna die tonight”.

      So, as soon as he heard this, he knew his time was running out (he said). He had to shoot him before the police got there so that he would have time to put the gun away before he might get shot by them. Suddenly, after having been helpless for the whole struggle, he was able to retrieve his gun and shoot Trayvon.

  91. Olivia says:

    I’m also not happy that judge Nelson allowed the misrepresentation of body sizes to be propped up on the wall near the murderer.

    Did the prosecution measure the height and width of the cutouts?

    IIRC, the murderer is only 3 inches shorter than the 5’11” height of Trayvon.

    Is it just me, or do those cardboard cutouts depict much more than a 3″ difference in height?

    Did you all notice that O’Marra’s cardboard cutouts only define 1 arm on each of the figures?

    O’Marra and West probably only wanted to show 1 arm, because if both arms were depicted on Trayvon’s shape, the thinness of his upper body would have been obvious, especially in comparison to the murderer’s thick upper body.

    • MDH says:

      The law of leverage can not be violated.

      A shorter stockier man with more weight is stronger than a taller, lanky lighter teen.

      Although GZ was not lean, I bet his body fat percentage at the time of the murder was 18%. Trayvon was not ripped so 8% is a decent estimate.

      So Trayvon had a lean body mass of 144lbs and GZ had a lean body mass of 169 lbs. As a result, GZ had 25 more pounds of muscle than Trayvon.

      The prosecution should have had a gym/fight expert to counter that use of force liar used by the defense.

      For example, strength is based on the thickness and length of ones body core.

      Only a moron or liar with gym experience would say that muscle definition in the arms is any indicia of strength.

      • bettykath says:

        Reminds me of an encounter with a nephew who was visiting. He needed to take a shower but didn’t want to. We got into a pushing match. He had height and reach, I had weight and lower center of gravity. Once in the bathroom he decided that he didn’t need my help in getting undressed. I was relieved b/c I’m not sure I could have made that happen and I sure didn’t want to. : )

  92. Thrace says:

    They asked the public for HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS for George Zimmerman’s defense … but now that the case is over, GZ’s lawyers are living the high life– eating at one of NYC’s most expensive restaurants.

    TMZ cameras rolled as Mark O’Mara, Don West and the rest of the team left the famous Nello restaurant in NYC earlier today … where the lobster bisque will run you a cool $43.

    Sources tell TMZ the gang was seen drinking champagne inside the restaurant … and when it comes to the bubbly at Nello — even the cheap stuff is expensive.

    In fact, Nello is where ultra-rich stars like Jay-Z and Alex Rodriguez are often seen chowing down.

    On the way out, the lawyers told us they still believe the jury in the Trayvon Martin case made the right decision — “[Zimmerman] was not guilty from day one.”

    They also said the food at Nello’s was excellent.


  93. LiveByTheGulf says:

    Seminole County is heavily Republican.

    In 2000, “her campaign manager is on the county Republican Party executive committee”

    We can conclude: since Seminole County is heavily Republican, that the members of jury were mostly Republicans . Guns, law enforcement, military and the flag are music to Republican ears. Working the law to their advantage is a Republican specialty..

    How are Republicans known to view black people?

  94. dianetrotter says:

    Looks like jurors are cracking under pressure. Florida is offering them counseling.

    • Woow! says:

      Excuse my french but Woow must say this…..

      Let those low down witches conscience eat them alive. I hope their decision hunt them for a very very very long time.

      On a side note: What if heaven and hell is different for people. Say for instance….what if we created our own hell?

      you were a bigot and racist all your life and you refused to repent and see that all people were created the same in God’s eyes. When you died you stood before the very thing you hated, a black Jesus, who threw you into the fiery pit of hell, (your hell would be all blacks all the time) where the demons would be black. Ok now imagine this person being tortured by having to live with and talk to the thing they hate the most, a person of color. Also imagine their demons doing every single low down dirty thing they ever did to someone to them.

      The moral is love each other because you never know what is in store for you in the hereafter.

    • Malisha says:


      The state first sets up a rabid madman to cover-up his felonious assault on a federal agent, then they hand him a concealed weapon and enough hollowpoints to shoot up a school, then they refuse to listen to complaints being made that he’s terrorizing the neighborhood with his sissy-ass flubber-mouth patrols, then they enable him to go shoot hisself a candy-bearing Black kid, then they cover it up and destroy evidence, then they CREATE “evidence,” then they make statements full of bullshit while the nation rises up in righteous indignation, then they hold a monkey trial, and then they give their little dupe-ass ignorant punked-out white girls “COUNSELING”?


      How much does this cost the people of Florida? Counseling? COUNSELING?

      “Oh dear, you think people don’t like you any more because you just had to do your job and free a lying, brutal, lily-livered murderer to kill again and broadcast on TV that he kills for God? How does that make you feel?”

      Here’s counseling, you six dumb patriarchal doormats, you six stupid tools, you six moral midgets: YOU did wrong. YOU are bad. YOU were weak and stupid. YOU have identified yourself as racists even if we don’t know your names. Your names don’t matter; we won’t even have to forget them. You have done EVIL. You have written yourself out of the book of life if there is one. You have written yourself off as a person deserving of any consideration, any sympathy, any help, any comfort, any justice, for the rest of your natural life, YOU STINK.

      Now … how does THAT make you feel?

      Awwwww, too bad little girly-wirly, tsk tsk. Remember Trayvon Benjamin Martin? He said:

      “I like to make people feel good about themselves.”

      Well he’s dead. Nobody else should ever want to make you six feel good about yourselves. EVER.

      • Woow! says:

        The women on that jury was not united. They need to tell what happened and set their conscience free.

        • groans says:

          “Divided” or not, they sent up a unanimous verdict.

          I don’t know why the media acts like “18 hours” of deliberation is somehow a long time. I just don’t get that. They could not have reviewed or discussed all the evidence and the law in that amount of time. They could not have compared all CAC’s stories, let alone challenge any, or explain how CAC could have shot Trayvon from the position and in the manner he claimed. They didn’t deliberate SHIT!

          And then talk about a “holdout” juror?! There CAN’T be a “holdout” in an 18-hour “deliberation” – it’s simply too quick of a verdict, IMO.

          And now, COUNSELING??? What an embarrassment to all adults and especially to women. A bunch of prejudiced mothers CONDONED this paranoid, sociopath’s gunning down a kid during a wrestling match that the KILLER instigated … because the kid was black and they couldn’t even conceive of him as a kid!

          They don’t need counseling. They need a confessional booth. They failed to do their job, and one or more of them sold her soul for convenience.

          Once again: There ain’t NO HEROES in north/central Florida. Everyone who had an opportunity to do the RIGHT THING, opted instead to cave under pressure.

          When I write my book about this travesty of justice, the title will be something like, “No Heroes the Gunshine State.”

        • Vickis Smith says:

          According to this juror they WERE united on one thing: that GZ was guilty of something wrong, but that the choices they were given were too confusing and didn’t seem to fit.

      • Johnnie says:

        WOW!!!! Now tell us how you really feel!!!!!

        Just kidding……Love it.

    • anita says:

      I think b37 needed counseling long before she sat on the jury.

    • chills101 says:

      They want them to keep that story str8… What’s done in the dark shall come to the light..

    • Soulcatcher says:

      I guess those streak dinners, manicures and pedicures, and movies, where more that they could handle. They blew thru 33,000 in a matter of weeks. No cleaning, maid service, no kids or husband, I’d need counseling when I got home too.

  95. Woow! says:

    Stealth Jurors’ Steal Their Way Onto George Zimmerman Trial
    Concern grows for potential jurors harboring hidden agendas against Zimmerman.

    that news headline should have been the other way…… harboring hidden agendas to free Zimmerman

  96. commenting says:

    i love you malisha and all the other whites on here….rachael and the rest……

    • Woow! says:

      I need to sit myself in time out b/c I thought Malisha was a black woman from her name……..

      see how easy it was to make an assumption…… CAC assumed that baby was up to no good because he was walking in the rain. With his hood on ear buds in and hands in his pocket with bag around wrist he really was up to no good.

      ***My admins assistant is white and her name is LaTasha with a gold star on her tooth. She is standing next to me laughing while I am typing this comment. :)***

      did I mention she named her son Ja’Quarius Alize (yes the liquor) heeheee if I could post a picture I would 🙂

      • Vickis Smith says:

        Mormon girls are often have unusual names starting with “La”.

        BTW, watching an Alf rerun- Willie has just been asked by the next door neighbors if he and his wife want to join a neighborhood watch…

  97. Olivia says:

    The cardboard cutouts shouldn’t have been permitted because they were a deceptive depiction of body sizes.

    The killer’s jacket was tight fitting, close to his body, but Trayvon’s outerwear was loose and bulky.

    However, devious O’Marra and West were happy to depict Trayvon as larger.

    The cardboard cutout even included a large, loose fitting hood on the victim to make his head appear larger.

    Reality is, the murderer has a very large head. Just take a look at the court room videos and you’ll see how much larger the murderer’s head is than other adult males in the court room.

    See, O’Marra and West weren’t out to be honest with the jurors.

    I don’t understand why they were permitted to display the cardboard cutouts or the fantasy animation.

    For “illustrative” purposes? Oh, please! You can’t illustrate the truth when the basis of your illustration is lies.

  98. commenting says:

    YEP PEOPLE ACCEPT THE VERDICT, nothing else can be done…the parents have been through enough…they should have begged for money over the internet…probably from a few celebrities to afford a team of private lawyers…but then again you can’t control the jury..all that is needed is one racist person serving as a juror for a guilty man to escape justice

  99. commenting says:

    i think Boulder gave a new definition to the word LIE….he strated that if someone sayd the same thing over and over agian they are lying…so why were they trying their best to perjure rachel jeantel on the stand???? i gues tht rule only appies to gz

  100. J4TMinATL says:

    Thank you for the link confirming that B-37 aka Anderson Cooper juror only represents herself at least to B-76, B-51, E-6, and E-40. I wonder who put together “their statement?”

    B-29 did not sign that bull crap prepared statement for immediate release.

    So we know how B-37 feels from her mouth and written releases.

    We know that 4 jurors agreed to a prepared release.

    We know B-29 (hispanic), has done no such thing. No interview, no agreeing to release. She may have been the hold out.

    Anderson Cooper juror is now stating her book would have been about how sequestration sucks and how it affected her? Sounds like she didn’t want to serve once judge decided that jury would be sequestered during middle of voir dire. The questionnaire implies it. Maybe AC juror truly bullied the other 3, and told them “see the instructions are clear, we must aquit.” And at least someone said “STFU, I want clarification.” And we all know what happened next.

    So AC juror is now claiming she just had no choice because of law and instructions. Basically the argument Prof made. Can’t make this crap up. Wow.

    • Woow! says:

      Her book would have been about how the state tried to convict an innocent man.

      • aussie says:

        She claimed it was about how hard it is to sequestered away from your family with a bunch of strangers — not of your own social class who keep insisting a murderer should be convicted.

        (First half of this sentence is close paraphrase of what she actually said).

  101. MedicineBear says:

    Correction: March 28, 2012 (about 1 month after the murder)

  102. MedicineBear says:

    Here’s a video from March 28, 2013 about Wolfinger being on scene the night of Trayvon’s murder and conspiring with Police Chief Lee to let fogen walk with no charges. By Joy-Ann Reid of The Grio:


  103. I’m not so sure this particular jury would’ve convicted Charles Manson. I get called up for jury duty yearly and often seated: Here’s my most recent Jury selectionr experience: http://youtu.be/ZMDQCXXN8h0

    This story is so profitable to the media – they will want a Federal trial and all the ad dollars that come with it. Fantasy perhaps, better than present reality, for sure. Be well.

    Looking forward toward contributing on PayPal this evening

  104. Boyd says:

    If TM was hiding in the bushes by the T, he would have turned the phone off.

    He was caught by surprise , I recall Rachel hearing a oh shit, he’s right behind me.

    Pretty hard to be caught by surprise unless Zimmerman sneaking up on him.

    For starters where exactly was his car? His friend Eloise said it was at RVC 2x.

  105. commenting says:

    people remember gz’s past college teacher, the black guy who explained what IMPERFECT SELF DEFENSE meant…he said even though your are the initial aggressor and you decide to retreat for the fight which you started… you can still claim SYG by meeting force with force to prevent death or great bodily harm….unfortunately gz was not facing death or great bodily harm

  106. commenting says:

    there were 3 jurors who wanted to convict gz, one with murder 2 and 2 with manslaughter….had the prosecution made a little effort during the trial, these jurors would not have been swayed by the biased ones…
    they had very limited time to review the evidence and make a decision..they were away form their loved ones for 2 weeks….

    bernie bernie benie…he made sure that a hung jury was not reached, he made sure that a not guilty verdict was reached

    the jurors should gone into deliberation well informed and convinced..the state failed Trayvon martin and his parents

    • Woow! says:

      Those women wanted to go home and after having 3 bigoted ignorant racist in their ears for hours they were like what the heck not guilty lets go home.

      On a serious note, knowing B37 was married to an attorney she probably convinced them that her husband had friends in the know and the state was hiding evidence and they believed it.

  107. commenting says:

    bernie stated that gz stated that he mounted Trayvon after he shot him to look for a weapon to make Trayvon appear evil..no that was not the reason bernie,,,he just gave a bogus reason because the women saw him Straddling Trayvon..if they did not see him he would have completely left that part out

    and bernie highlighted a part of the reenactment that made him look like a complete idiot…the part where gz was explaining that he had forgotten the name of the street but he gave the name seconds before…it was the next day bernie..he was simply explaining that he had forgotten the street name that night…

    there are so many other things that they should have highlighted and made sure that it stuck in The jurors head but they didn’t…and there were many statements made by the defense witnesses that could have been challenged but was not…

    bernie even made a couple of false statements, gz explained that Trayvon allegedly was smothering him then he removed one hand from over his mouth to reach for the gun, but bernie stated that gz said that Trayvons both hand was on his face while he reached for the gun with his imaginary third hand

    bernie’s closing argument was a chaotic mess…it did not help not one bit….it probably only confused the jurors

    they could have done way better they could have convinced the jurors but it’s like they did not want too, it;s like that state wanted gz to walk

    • Woow! says:

      Bernie did a good job in his closing and I did not find it hard to follow. It does not matter what he said or did not say or how well put together it was. Those jurors knew how they would voted before he trial began.

    • J4TMinATL says:


      Can you please stop commenting.

      • groans says:


        Can you please MYOB.

      • dianetrotter says:

        With all due respect, Professor will make the decision as to who will be stopped from commenting. We should experience togetherness and respect. Divided we fall.

        • J4TMinATL says:

          It was tongue in cheek. A joke.

          • dianetrotter says:

            Then I am so sorry. I’m trying not to be a teacher. My nieces and nephews told me they are going to unfriend me on FB because of my comments. Please accept my apology. Unlike gz, I am sorry I made an assumption.

  108. Sophia33 says:


    Could you please post about Darius Simmons also. His trial is starting soon. He was a 13 year old black boy gunned down while getting one of his garbage cans. His next door neighbor accused him of stealing and shot him in the chest.


  109. dianetrotter says:

    B37 possibly provided DOJ additional avenues to pursue in investigating this. Also, DOJ should be able to get the call analyzed to see if he said “fu*king coons.”

    • Boyd says:

      what avenues is that? I saw none, they can’t go after anyone if they’re a bigot.

      • dianetrotter says:

        I would start with B37 and her husband, backtrack cellphones, computers, and other connections to defense, zimmermans, police, or witnesses. If I were on it, I would leave no stone unturned.

      • dianetrotter says:

        I didn’t realize they were allowed to keep cellphones under sequester. Why would they need phones. Yep … they need to backtrack and check everything including the jurors’ underwear.

    • J4TMinATL says:

      Won’t happen. Please accept it. We won’t ever like it but we have to accept it. DOJ won’t do anything. Stop spreading “false hope.” PLEASE.

      GZ was found not guilty by 6 women who we no nothing about. No point in calling them names. Those 6 women decided and that verdict will never change. It is what it is. As President Obama stated, we must respect it.

      • “Stop spreading “false hope.” PLEASE…As President Obama stated, we must respect it.”

        Obama also penned a book entitled The Audacity of Hope.

        • J4TMinATL says:

          Go ahead, get those 6 women. Get them. That will work.

          Yes false hope of a retrial. That’s what I said.

        • aussie says:

          Obama’s “,must respect it” speech was a not very veiled plea to everyone not to consider doing something silly. Like riot maybe.

          It doesn’t mean he might not be personally shocked and/or get the DOJ digging a bit deeper.

          • J4TMinATL says:

            Ok. I’ve stated my opinion. I’m with Obama on this.

            We will see if anything comes from supposed DOJ FDLE SPO investigation. I doubt anything happens to him, IMO.

  110. commenting says:

    i have listened to the 911 tapes several times and i only heard the “I’M BEGGING YOU’ at the beginning of the tape after someone pointed it out….the state thought that they did not need to break down anything to the jurors, while MOM was spoon feeding them lies.. constantly asking where would the blood go if someone was on their back?..if would run down their throat right?gz never stated that he tasted blood…or he was swallowing blood…

    and concerning the refusal to bag Trayvon”s hands by the incompetent workers….Mom was suggesting that if there was any blood on Trayvon’s hand then it was probably wiped off..so why was the blood not smudged or smeared on gz’s Face?..

    after all that head banging on the concrete and the single banging on the grass..why wasn’t the blood smudged on gz’s head?

    and in the last part of the serino and singleton interview/interrogation…gz siad Trayvon reached for the gun but he got it first so Trayvon decided to bash his head one more time …….why didn’t they highlight that part..this is so ridiculous…no one with common sense would believe that..the jurors probably did not catch that part( the unbiased one)

    and were certain parts of the hannity interview redacted??? the part where gz was asked if he knew Tm was in bad shape that night and he responded that he never looked at the body after he shot Trayvon,but in an interview or the reenactment video he stated that he remained straddled on Trayvon till Trayvon stopped moving….but Trayvon pulled his hand under his body after right? ye

  111. colin black says:

    Sommmit up with the site?

  112. J4TMinATL says:

    Thanks to Amsterdam I found what Fla Supreme Court cases JN refers to.

    Instruction 3.6(f) and (g)- self defense. See Bassallo vs State, 46 So. 3d 1205 (Fla 4th DCA November 10, 2010; Talley vs State, 38 Fla. L Weekly D426a (Fla. 2nd DCA February 22, 2013.

  113. KateW says:

    Is anyone else seeing this statement that juror B37 put out to CNN talking about the laws need to be changed and she was left with no option than to vote the way she did???

    She had no option? she could have reviewed the information, that was her option. Not to mention she lied about not knowing anything about the case during voir dire(spelling) and then contradicts herself by saying she used outside information to make her judgement?!!? She needs a straightjacket or meds.

    • Boyd says:

      if you believe Zimmerman, if your you cannot use the chase as a reason. Then He walks, he killed the only witness. if Trayvon survived he would be charged for assault. Martin never had a chance In that county.

      • Vickis Smith says:

        Had Trayvon lived, he would have told his side of things. Had the struggle been stopped right after Tray had punched GZ (I believe that happened right after GZ reached into his pocket, which would clearly be SYG for Trayvon) each would have given his account of what had happened.

        GZ would have explained he was following, but was walking back to his car. Tray would have disagreed. GZ would have asked to have Tray arrested for assault and battery. Tray would have said that when GZ reached into his pocket he thought he was reaching for a weapon and that’s why he punched him- that he was frightened as he had been followed by vehicle and foot.

        In CA nothing would have come to trial’; GZ would have been told that Trayvon acted reasonably, and since no harm would have been done to Trayvon, each would have been told to go home- that it was an unfortunate misunderstanding. Probably would have told GZ that had he identified himself nothing would have happened.

    • endlessummer76 says:

      Her statement “somebody died but nothing could be done” says so much about her. You would say that if Trayvon had died of cancer. No, somebody didn’t just die. A child was murdered, shot in the heart. Pulling the trigger is always a deliberate act. She wants people to think it was all just a mishap instead of a horrific crime.

      • abbyj1 says:

        endless, yes, B37 wants everyone to this it was just a “mishap.” She talked about what was in “George’s” heart and mind. She knew his innermost thoughts and intentions. She saw him as the neighborhood savior gone amiss. What blows me away is her contention that self defense began at the moment GZ got in over his head, not when he went in hot pursuit of TM with a loaded gun. GZ starts the entire disaster, gets in over his head, and THEN self defense applies to him?? I mean, honestly, how stupid can a juror be? How biased? How blind to justice?

        And now there’s breaking news that the jurors are so “traumatized” that the court is making special counselors available to them. I don’t think they’re traumatized at all. I think they’re scared to death since they screwed up that their IDs are going be be known eventually. I AM NOT ENDORSING publicizing their names and IDs at all. It just seems that the way things go in this country, that the IDs of the jury will eventually be known. After all, everyone in Sanford knows who they are.

        • endlessummer76 says:

          Agree, that’s not trauma, it’s fear. And guess what? Because of the verdict that they rendered, everyone if FL is in fear because we can now all be killed by anyone who thinks we’re suspicious and that’s a justifiable homicide.

          As I Florida taxpayer I cannot even begin to tell you how offended I am that I am having to pay for their counseling.

        • Vickis Smith says:

          Not necessarily all of Sanford- just those who knew them and were able to be in the courtroom.

          Anonymity is a joke, if faces aren’t covered.

    • groans says:

      What outside information did she use, does anyone know?

      • Vickis Smith says:

        Groans, I heard her say that there might have been a third charge to consider but she didn’t remember. Now unless she is talking about SYG, which was not to be considered, it would mean she had found out about the prosecution’s desire to add a M3 alternative charge. This would mean, of course, she was getting outside info.

    • Malisha says:

      She doesn’t need a straightjacket or meds. She needs to admit she lied, and she lied because she didn’t want the white guy to go down just for killing a Black kid. She’d have killed him herself if she thought she could.

      • Vickis Smith says:

        Malisha, I don’t think that is the case. I think she doesn”t realize how biased she really was. She seems to be the kind of person who believes she’s not bigoted because she has a black hairdresser, and is quite cordial to any black neighbors she might have.

        I heard great sincerity in her voice about Trayvon’s being dead, and if you remember she said that all the jurors thought GZ should have been found guilty of SOMETHING- she is saying they were all aware that GZ had done something worthy of being found guilty, but she didn’t think the charge or M2 or manslaughter fit, according to the very confusing definitions.

  114. disappointed says:

    It does not matter what instructions were missing. This juror made it sound like the NEN operator was giving fogen instructions on following Trayvon. As in tell me where he went, go find out….

    I am just going to put this out there- if you think when a dispatcher ask what way did he go means get out of your truck or you decide to believe that he is instructing the person on the other end of the line to do so…. Well than you are to fucking stupid to be able to carry a gun or sit on a jury. THIS shit is fogen’s fault stop blaming the victim. I do think this case has some questionable players but one thing I believe Mantei and Guy was not in on it! They were beat down devastated imo.
    Jurors need iq test and to get a concealed carry permit for sure without doubt needs an iq test and mental evaluation. Sorry for the language, but this is still an open wound. I know how the Martin/Fulton family feels and this will take a long time to get past. imho

    • disappointed says:

      THIS shit is fogen’s fault stop blaming the victim.
      that comment was not for anyone here, just in general. One of the jurors threatened to walk out, I wish she would have.

      • J4TMinATL says:

        No one threatened to walk out. B37 said one juror wanted to go home but they convinced her to stay.

      • Vickis Smith says:

        Had the juror walked out, that wouldn’t have ended the trial; an alternate juror would have been called with deliberations starting from scratch.

        And since the juror who threatened was most likely the one who originally wanted Murder2, if the new juror were also white (non-Hispanic) it would just have delayed the not guilty verdict a bit.

        On top of that, you can bet that an alternate might well have felt intimidated as by that time it seems there were 5 not guiltys.

    • anita says:

      Guy & Mantei were not in on anything. The looks on their faces after the verdict proved that .

      • Boyd says:

        the 3 were not. but something was amiss. Maybe they were caught off guard by the Judge. She really swung the tide for the defense.

        She knocked out 2 rebuttal witnesses. allowed Donnelly to testify after the defense acknowledged the sequestration violation. Killed audio guys. No gag order.

        My biggest problem with the Prosecution was they did not deliver the knockout blow, they played it clean. The defense played dirty. I would have tried my best to get old GF, cousin RVC homeowners who complained about him ,to testify about him in some way. The old GF could have talked about the physical fighting and protection order. If the ‘D” yelled bad prior acts, I’d argue or it was certainly not your honor, …. play dirty!

    • endlessummer76 says:

      Exactly. In what universe does “we don’t need you to do that” mean the same as “egging him on”? Her statement is merely a repeat of fogen’s defense of himself. SMH

      • believeinkarma says:

        And she had the nerve to feel superior to Rachael. B37 has a very limited intelligence and no critical thinking skills. Probably parrots husband and would never go home with guilty verdict. No thinking process.

      • believeinkarma says:

        Wonder if that is in papa fogen book?

      • Vickis Smith says:

        But Zimmerman would never have said to the investigator that the dispatcher had asked for these things had he not have done so. That would have been idiotic of GZ to have lied about this.

        But GZ later said that he realized the dispatcher did not want him to follow, even though he’d asked him to observe Trayvon.

    • Soulcatcher says:

      Seems to me it’s not a consideration if someone is crazy or has mental issues. They just gave a gun back to someone who can’t even remember what street he is on. He even admits he has a hard time remembering things, and we know he hears little voices that tell him things (like we need and address). He couldn’t remember what he did for those couple of minutes after the Nen call, or how the body ended up where it did. Oh and don’t forget, he didn’t remember he ev en had “the gun” with him, the one he always carries, except to work. He sure remembered to move his hand so he wouldn’t shoot it. He remembered how to pull the trigger and aim it directly at the heart.

      Pass those guns out, Wasn’t it FLORIDA the place the terrorist took flight lessons one how to fly a plane, and no one was curious why they didn’t want to know how to land them.

  115. riisey007 says:

    If we actually have to face the fact that all of them were in this together and that prosecution did not object to things they should have , we won’t be the same ever again. I am on the verge of tears because I believe Trayvon Martin is the sacrificial lamb. I just can’t……it is too hard and it hurts too much.

    • I don’t believe they were all in this together. For example, there were times when it looked like BDLR was going punch out O’Mara.

      • Beverly says:

        So glad you say that….I cannot buy that there was a “fix.”

      • dianetrotter says:

        Mark Geragos said the not guilty was decided at the end of jury selection.

        • believeinkarma says:

          What if the whole justice system in florida is so racist that the trial was essentially a show to shut us up? The whole system is prejudicial? What recourse do citizens have to get these rats out of their nest?

          This whole case was mishandled from the beginning. Every step has been racial but the whole state ignored that, thereby never got at why fogen murdered Trayvon

          The whole thing has been a hate crime from start to trial and still is. Still attacking dead child. So wrong.

      • Vickis Smith says:

        Not to mention that West refused to shake hands with Guy when Guy proffered his hand.

      • riisey007 says:

        I did see that at times too but I just couldn’t figure out why they had so many missed opportunities especially with Rachel and her medical condition which caused her words to not come out right along with her inability to speak loudly for slewing her words. I guess they were just missed opportunities.

    • Malisha says:

      “IF” is really not in the equation, riisey, I believe. I don’t want to believe it either, but when the evidence leads me there, what can I do? Trayvon Martin was not exactly a “sacrificial lamb” because there was no real “sacrifice.” For there to be a “sacrifice,” there has to be a ritual or a goal. In this case, Trayvon Martin was simply a victim. First, he was a victim of a gun-crazed impotent failure with a low i.q. and then he was a victim of a cover-up. In the end he was a victim of THE BIG LIE and that is where all the other victims have come in. The courts of Florida and the state agencies and, I believe but hope not, the federal agencies as well, are victimizing America. It is my bet, unfortunately, that just as Trayvon didn’t stand a chance, the rest of us and American democracy itself don’t stand a chance.

      This is why I would like to see Black veterans and military personnel join this battle right now. They have fought in all these godforsaken places for freedom? But they can get gunned down in our backyards without protection and our freedom guarantee does not include a fair trial for the perps?

      I’d rather we left the Iraqi criminals and the Afghani criminals alone and first, clean up our own country from our own criminals. I am not as happy about the death of bin Laden as I am unhappy about the death of Trayvon Martin. Until our government can protect an unarmed child in Florida, why are we protecting armed people anywhere on earth?

      • Soulcatcher says:

        @Malisha, Isn’t that the truth!!! I’ve been saying that about all the aide we sent to countries too.

  116. commenting says:

    MOM stated that Tm ignored john good when he asked him what was going on..he continued to beat gz….that wasn’t even addressed…no one in the middle of a struggle would immediately look aback when someone speaks to them..how long did john give Tm to respond?…john goode said he was only out there for about ten seconds,,and it took him a few seconds to figure out that it was not dogs out there…
    maybe Tm was indeed responding to john goode when he got shot…he was retreating..that was how Gz was able to get the gun

    they spoke about Tm’s clothes being pulled but never expounded with enough clarity, they mention that the flashlight that gz held unto after the alleged sucker punched could have been used as a weapon but again no break simplification, no explanation, no why wouldn’t someone use a flashlight to defend themselves after being sucker punched…why hold unto it while swatting their attacker

    concerning the 4 minutes that Tm had to run away…they could have shown that there were several paths that Trayvon could have taken….ran between the building then walk back in after the thought that gz was gone

    the cross questioning was pathetic..they had an entire year to prepare and to expect certain statements from the witnesses so they could have a good questions prepared to ask in response to these statements…

  117. HeresLookingatYou says:

    Guilty in Milwaukee the 76 yr old that murdered the 13 year old…
    Phase 2 trying to say he has a mental defect….

  118. Ezz-Thetic says:

    Can a mistrial be declared?

    • Not after a verdict of not guilty.

      • Woow! says:


        If it is discovered that the jurors violated sequestration or 3 of the jurors did anything improper to coerce the other 3 to vote with them, what recourse could the state have or could anything be done to them (juror) at all? What if it is found out MOM or W was speaking with them through their spouse(s) or they knew GZ personally or someone in his family. What recourse is there for a lying juror?

        There has to something to punish a stealth juror.

        • J4TMinATL says:

          Contempt of court. That’s it. We have to accept verdict. The jurors asked for everyone to respect their verdict.

          • Malisha says:

            Nobody has to respect their verdict. It is not illegal to follow someone. It is not illegal to carry a loaded gun. It is not illegal to say someone is “up to no good.” It is not illegal to confront someone in a neighborhood. And it is not illegal to thoroughly DISRESPECT the verdict rendered by three racist a55holes who coerced three other cowards into saying a murderer could walk. Not Illegal, na na na na na na na. Hey B-37: You want respect? Go get a job cleaning Fogen’s toilet; he and Shellie will both respect you for that, more than any rational person can respect you for depriving our nation of the semblance of law.

          • J4TMinATL says:


            All I said was that the jurors asked for respect for the time that they served…..

            I don’t agree with it, but I accept it. I don’t like it. I cried for days. I was not in that room. I wouldn’t have been allowed because I knew a lot about the case.

  119. commenting says:


    The crime consultation guy also said over and over that gz was not a confrontational guy…the state had a variety of witnesses that could have been deposed just in case so they could be called to refute that claim…

    concerning the sucker punch at the T…they should have expounded on that man and stick to 1 Theory..gz was never sucker punched at the T….if so did Trayvon just stood there and let gz swat him 40 ft forward without delivering more blows to a dazed and disoriented gz?..gz probably received the blow at the location where they both fell…

    the state did not even bother to address the animation. they could have explained that it was inconstant with what john good said happened and inconsistent with gz’s testimony. john said that gz sand TM were in a horizontal position on the concrete when he went back in and he immediately called the cops…he always keeps his phone on him….

    gZ explained that he was perpendicular to the side walk and he shimmied after getting his head bashed over and over, then Tm smothered him, he was suffocating and he tried to remove Tm’s hand from his face..then Tm looked back and saw the gun, and removed one hand form over gz’s mouth to reach for the gun…how the hell could all those things happen before the shot….john said the shot was four seconds not he call while he was waiting for the phone to connect

    • abbyj1 says:

      Excellent article. Thanks, Gp. The prosecution played their hand in the worst possible way by not forcing GZ on the stand. I can understand their reasoning in wanting to highlight his own verbal inconsistencies but, as the article points out, he would have been forced to reconcile those inconsistencies on the stand. Ain’t hindsight great?

      • Girlp says:

        I wish that had been their strategy, would have worked a lot better…give George no choice but to take the stand.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      am about to go read this, so keep in mind i have not yet, but have read the comments below. also, i am not defending the actions of the prosecution, because i too question the wisdom of it.

      in a televised sit down interview the day after the verdict, corey and BDLR were asked why they entered the defendant’s statement into evidence when they did not have to.

      BDLR’ response was that due to one of the courts rulings, that gz’s ‘excited utterances’ would be entered (statements he made to manolo and ofc. smith), combined with the fact that injuries were sustained, the prosecution determined enough evidence would be presented to warrant the ‘self defense’ language in the jury instructions. they felt this would happen whether or not the defendant took the stand and thus changed their strategy to present his statements and point out the falsehoods.

      IANAL but it seems the prosecution made a calculated gamble that did not work for them. in retrospect, i wonder if anything would have worked for them — the police basically testified for the defense, the jury wasn’t willing to listen to ms. jeantel much less follow the court’s instructions.

      • Bernie made a telling comment during that interview in which he said, “We don’t get to choose our witnesses.” I think he was referring to Rachel Jeantel.

        I don’t believe he ever clicked or tried to click with her to help her get ready to testify. I don’t believe she knew what to expect and was already intimidated by the 6 hour deposition.

        I don’t believe she was adequately prepared or protected during West’s no-hold-barred badgering.

        That was a serious tactical error.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          yes, she was rather thrown to the wolves.

          i think she had already had enough of west’s badgering from the 2 day deposition. it seems clear that her own attorney worked with her during the evening recess.

          dr. bao also needed serious work as a witness and we know that BDLR had met with him shortly before testifying.

          the one thing we do know is that bernie spends more time talking than listening. although his track record is apparently great (48 wins/2 losses) this is a major drawback.

  120. Jun says:

    I been saying this since the beginning that the jury instructions were bias against the victim

    the jury selection was bias against the victim

    and the trial was not done properly

    there’s gotta be some kind of appeal and motion regarding this because you can say he has no rights now because he is deceased but this occurred while the victim was still alive

    everything that may have happened to Fogen should be considered lawful force thus he cant use it to claim self defense against

    but what do i expect from some dumb ass backwater town

    personally, I’d request a retrial because basically the victim was found guilty and everything was bias against the victim’s rights

    • J4TMinATL says:

      There will be NO mistrial. Double jeopardy. OJ could have admitted to murders kind of like he did in the book from same literary agent that just dropped B37’s deal and wouldn’t matter. You cannot be retried.

      Professor said only relief of anything would have to come from the Federal Level and that IMO is extremely unlikely to happen. No state can retry GZ. None. I might strangle the next person who asks this.

      Double jeopardy is one of the most basic concepts that we all learn and understand about criminal justice system yet somehow people don’t know what it means.

      • Jun says:

        well someone’s got to reparate the victim’s rights being infringed in court

        I beg to differ on double jeopardy, however, there’s no point because the defendant can choose the venue and he has the backing of that stinkwater town

        federal though, he’s fucked

        • abbyj1 says:

          Jun, God, I hope you’re right.

        • Vickis Smith says:

          Jun- once a verdict is reached and a defendant is found not guilty, he can NEVER, EVER be retried no matter what the reason.

          Mistrials must be declared before a verdict.

          Hung juries allow the prosecution to retry, but it is up to them to decide if it’s worthwhile.

          On the other hand, a judge can throw out a verdict if the defendant has been found guilty and judge finds that there was insufficient evidence to convict. On occasion the jury’s bias has been so obvious that the judge reads them the “riot act””.

  121. J4TMinATL says:

    OMG, just remembered something.

    Basically, what Professor pointed out is what the state attorney general said on HLN the other night, the comment about the aggressor. 

    Holy MF crap.

  122. commenting says:

    say what i have a bad feeling that bernie threw away the case…i give mantie and guy the benefit of the doubt even though they also could have done better……
    as i have written on a several you tube videos
    I refuse to believe that a lawyer could be so awful on purpose. there was no clear description of what they believed took place that night in reference to the physical struggle

    first they indicated/suggested that if Trayvon punched punched gz at the T he had a good reason to do so because by placing his hands in his pocket after following someone in the dark Gz was making a threatening gesture. later they stated that Tm could not have seen the gun if he was mounted on gz…they needed to stick to one theory/Scenario….they only confused the jury who would be listening to detailed information for the first time

    they did not spend enough time expounding in detail what they thought happened…they went through it very quick..it was like they thought the jury had studied the evidence for weeks…i guess they thought that they jury would just use their common sense..but even if, they only had a limited time to make a decision and to go over the evidence couple with other jurors who who were biased and were there to convinced them to agree with their view . or maybe they simply thought the lack of blood on Tm’s hand and the constant screaming after gz said he was being suffocated was enough to convince the jury that gz was guilty

    they did not even bother to expound on the inconsistencies of the struggle, gz said fell in an interview and in a written report and he also told his best Friend osterman the same thing but he changed his story when he was brought to the crime scene, he had enough opportunity to jog his memory before going to the crime scene

    the crime consultation guy kept rambling on and on about the fruity of the struggle on the ground, however gz explained to his best friend that Trayvon was straddled o him bashing his head and then reached for his gun…how much movement could there have been at that point?

    • Wanna says:

      I agree with you about BdlR throwing away this case, his closing was lousy for a rookie and was not what one would expect for a SA who had successfully won 48 of 49 murder trials. This just doesn’t pass the smell test.

    • commenting says:

      i meant gz said that he fell BACKWARDS and was immediately mounted

    • commenting says:

      opps the fluidity OF THE STRUGGLE

  123. Abraham Jones says:

    After Zimmerman was acquitted, I took a long walk outside of my community. I must have walked around late at night until 1PM in the morning. I live in Coral Springs, FL. As I was walking, my mind just kept wondering, “what the hell just happened?!!” How did a murderer just walk away after shooting an unarmed kid? I kept asking myself that. All of a sudden, I realized that it was late at night and it was raining moderately, off and on. As if by some eery intervention, I suddenly realized that the conditions that existed at that moment must have been similar to what Trayvon Martin was experiencing in the sense that it’s night time, raining off and on, it’s dark, and I’m a black man walking around in a decent neighborhood. A neighborhood consisting of a mixture of whites and blacks; mostly whites. I couldn’t help but feel or wonder, at that moment, how many non-black people passing by in their cars, looking out their windows, etc., were wondering what I was up to. It was an unsettling feeling because as a man of color who is a law-biding citizen, who pays his taxes like every other hard working American, and who is a registered voter, should not have to walk around on egg-shells in order to make people who are non-black feel safer. I became nervous and immediately went home. Upon arriving home, I went to my 16 month old son’s grib and kneeled down and said a pray, asking the Lord to protect him in all of his endeavors in life. Afterwards, I logged onto my computer and came across yet another story of a young black boy, who was brutally shot, point black range, by another white man who accused the boy of stealing from him. I wanted to reach out and inform people, especially those that may not have heard of this particualr story, about how dangerous things are getting and how, as an entire country, if things do not change, people of color are going to be force to defend themselves with deadly force. As a man of faith, I’m not prone to nor do I believe in violence as an alternative. However, it is an intelligent man that defends himself when faced with harm to himself or family. As adults, we bear the responsibilities of our fathers, whether black or white, to make sure that we do not make the same mistakes, that they did. That we strive to become better, as a nation, in unity, and under God. After reading the story below, that you’re about to read, I simply turned off my computer, walked over to my son, who was asleep in his grib, having no worries, not knowing about the world he’ll have to face once he becomes older, a world totally different from the one that his white counterparts will face, and I picked him up and held him while tears just ran down my face.

    The story:
    In a case that bears some striking similarities to George Zimmerman’s, a 76-year-old Milwaukee man is set to stand trial this week in the 2012 shooting death a 13-year-old boy he had accused of stealing from him.

    Police say John Henry Spooner confronted Darius Simmons, who lived next door with his mother, as the teen took out the trash. Spooner, who is white, had suspected that Simmons, who was black, stole $3,000 worth of shotguns from him, and demanded that the sixth-grader return them. Simmons denied stealing the guns, and his mother, Patricia Larry, told Spooner to go back inside.

    Instead, prosecutors say, Spooner pulled out a handgun and shot the 13-year-old in the chest from near-point blank range.

    “When police arrived, Spooner was still on the sidewalk, holding the gun,” according to the criminal complaint. “When told to drop the weapon, he placed it on the ground and told police, ‘Yeah, I shot him.'”

    An autopsy showed that Simmons, who was unarmed, suffered a gunshot wound to his torso, according to the Associated Press. Spooner was charged with first degree murder. He pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity.

    Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett condemned the killing. “To have a boy who’s taking out the garbage at 10:30 in the morning murdered should shock the conscience of the state,” Barrett said at the time.

    Just hours before the shooting, Spooner told a local politician he was frustrated police had not arrested the boy in the alleged burglary, according to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, and hinted he might take the law into his own hands.

    “There are other ways to deal with situations,” Alderman Bob Donovan recalled Spooner saying.

    Spooner’s apparent reference to vigilantism drew comparisons to Zimmerman’s killing of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin after the former neighborhood watchman followed him through a Sanford, Fla., housing complex. Zimmerman was acquitted of all charges on Saturday.

    Last year, the Rev. Jesse Jackson’s Rainbow PUSH Coalition called for Spooner to be charged with a federal hate crime. On Monday, an attorney representing Simmons’ family said there’s a clear “issue of profiling” and a “race component” to the case. But Spooner has denied race was a factor in the shooting.

    The trial was supposed to begin in January but was delayed due to concerns about Spooner’s health.

    His defense attorney, Franklyn Gimbel, said Spooner has been suffering from pneumonia.

    Jury selection was completed Monday.

    End of story.

    When is enough enough? Modern day warfare has been declared on black youths across America. They are being gunned down
    by white men like they were animals even though they haven’t commited or are not in the commission of committing a crime? How many times have you heard of a black man gunning down a white child? I know that there are some instances but it is very seldom if not remote. And I’m sure, none of those instances were due to racism or having some sort of prejudice against the victim.

    What kind of a man, black or white, kills, at point blank
    range, a child? You have to be a monster to even consider it. This boy was 13 years old and this animal shot him down like he was nothing right in front of his mother!

    I could not have been this child’s father because I would have taken that very same gun and I would have unloaded it into this white man that just brutally killed my child.

    My fear is that, if this type of behavior continues to go on, black people will have no choice but to respond in a negative way. You’re killing our children. That in itself is more than enough reason to come to and bare arms! Again, I’m not for violence, but I’m also sick and tired of being called the monster, or the thug, while white people are systematically killing our children and committing horrible acts against us even though we have done nothing to provoke those types of actions against them.

    When I say white people, I don’t mean all white people. I know that not all whites are racist. I know that not all whites act with such hatred. I have had many white friends in my life. Very good white friends. Now that I think about it, I’ve had more white friends than I’ve had black friends. I don’t condone violence even if you’re black and you’re reacting towards a white person who probably deserved it. I try to look at things and weigh them intelligently. But, it’s hard white people.

    It’s so hard not to view all whites as not being racist. As a black man you start believing that all white people are just evil and hell bent on the destruction of black men. But, I then come across blogs such as this and read some of the comments and I suddenly remember that we’re all in this together. I suddenly remember that as a black man I cannot allow the rage and anger to consume me.

    I must judge people on their deeds and individual basis, no matter what the color. I thank god that I came across a site like this because it reminds me that we are all part of the human race and that in order to survive we must all move forward together. I feel that God is truly watching. I really pray that we do not force the hand of God due to our sins. Everyone, be blessed.

    • KateW says:

      Exactly what I said earlier. Are African Americans supposed to stand by and be slaughtered until change happens? Until something is done? Eventually they will be forced to protect themselves by arming themselves against a system that is justifying their murder. There are targets on their backs. The statistics are showing overwhelmingly that these defense claims against Blacks and justified killing by White people are skyrocketing and the ones doing the killing are getting away with it. The laws should not be made to protect killers and slant towards one race.

    • Malisha says:

      Dear Abraham J,

      I have to thank you for the kind of father you are being, for the kind of citizen you are being, for the kind of intellectual you are being, for the kind of human being you are being. I’m not Black and my kid is grown already but I have come to the exact conclusion you came to: “What can we [I really meant Black people and those whites who care about the morality of it] do when you [I really meant white racists, of which there are a zillion!] keep killing our [I really meant everyone] kids? WE MUST AT SOME POINT TAKE UP ARMS!”

      I don’t think this is even a question of right or wrong at this point in time. Just as self-defense says you have the right to defend yourself if you fear bodily harm or death, we [we know who we are] have an obligation to ourselves to defend ourselves when we KNOW that we are being victimized by the entire institution that governs our lives.

      We just CAN’T bring babies into the world and abandon them to the depredations of thugs like Fogen. Or the “justice” of thugs like Lee, Wolfinger, Serino, Robles, Hannity, Singleton, Corey, West, O’Mara, Donnelly and Nelson. And I left out a lot of names of a lot of thugs.

      • J4TMinATL says:

        This white woman here asks the very same question. What do we do? As many of you can guess yes I’m hated by so many whites. Some are my friends (embarrassing but you know I’m embarrassed by that)…To them, I’m just a DWL.

    • Tzar says:

      did you write this? it was really good

  124. Tzar says:

    Nescio, me fili, quo parvo sapientia mundus regnatur

  125. Malisha says:

    @ Big Willie, calling Big Willie, Calling Big Willie:

    I went ahead, after hearing what happened to you, and I contacted Starbucks through their websites, and I told them to refer to the thread (two threads ago) where you described your experience. They responded to me this morning saying this:

    We are concerned in reading your email and would like the opportunity to speak with you in person. Please call our customer contact center at 877-309-3180 and have reference # 11885938 available when you call.

    Our contact center is open Monday-Friday 5am-8pm and Saturday 7am-4pm (PST).

    SO PLEASE CALL THEM because I don’t know how to put you in touch with them. All I did was say I was dismayed to read what a terrible experience YOU had in Starbucks. So give them a call.

    It is important for each of us to do whatever we can to oppose this atrocious herd-like attitude of helping racists get away with everything, including but not limited to murder. Everyone who lets us know it’s OK with them that Trayvon was killed OR that Fogen got away with it needs to hear from us, loud and clear and unequivocal, and I’m glad if somebody can get fired over bullying a Starbucks customer to promote racism. Even in a little way.

    Every sin makes the pile of sh*t a little higher.

  126. colin black says:

    It would have made not one iota of differrence how J Nelson Instructed this Jury.

    You cannonnt instruct anintransient imovable objectionable type of person on anything .

    Not the Law not the weather not ongardening etiquite an how high should ones hedge be untill its blocking out your gardens an plants life sourse.

    It would have made no difference if the retreat at twin ponds waas peppered with cctv cameras an captured the entire event unfold in liveing colour

    Wouldnt have mattered if TRAYVON had indeed ended his call with my specia;l Gal DD an said hey Im going to film this creepyassed momo rapeist dude stalking me.

    An the Jury saw it all none of what we all know to be the truth none of it would have mattere.

    All the evidence we bitch about not been entered or shown to the Jury

    They could have veiwed it all an not a bit of difference to this verdict was always going to be to let.


    Because they could because they wanted to an shame on that Juroue whomlet herself be bullied /persueded to go with the flow.

    I would have hung that jury tilll kingdom come rather that be part of five bitches attempts to put BLACKS in there place.

    America your Jury system is a besmirchment to JUSTICE an a stainnnnn on mankind

    If Lady Justice is blind then so are alll off you whom cannot chomprehens the world is laughing at you fiasco of a JUSTus legal system that lets Jurours Shit on the pricipless of LAW an ORDER.

    Whom want to provoke the exact opposite those raceist bitches hopes to inflame Hateres riuots death an perhaps billlions of dollors in wrecked infra structure so they could drool

    An come in there sensible big girl pants

    An think I caused this I had a part in this I am HIUSTORY.

    Yup that about sums it up Six histronic women wanting to write there name in BLOOD iN HISTORY

    Well congratulations you CUNTS objective acheived

    You have written your names in blood in history,



    • type1juve says:

      Colin, I agree with everything you said. These jurors came in with every intention of letting Fogen walk. This is hard to take, but it is also a wake up call for black people. The more things change the more they remain the same.

  127. Woow! says:

    Wesley White is gunning for Angela Corey. I wounder who will be the next dummy to let him use them and ruin their career.

  128. Woow! says:

    The non guilty verdict will embolden George. He has beat too many charges.

    I believe in karma and when it comes back around to you it is a MF.

    George will do something again it is just in his nature. Let him continue to think he is untouchable. It will not be so easy for him the next time because the world knows who he is.

    I keep hearing rumors of him moving to Peru. Do those people want him there?

    • Girlp says:

      My biggest fear and there will be others as well.

    • lurker says:

      I would guess that domestic violence will be his next problem, unless he gets in with some lawless skinhead or militia group–which is another good possibility.

      Did anyone else notice that in addition to stony impassiveness kn facial response, there was no hug or other acknowledgement for Shellie? Both shook hands with the legal team and others, but no notice of each other.

  129. sparger says:


    This ridiculous trail is going on in Milwaukee. There is actually video of the crazy old man shooting the kid.

    • Woow! says:

      I have followed this case from the beginning. The think the gets under my skin is the cops put the mother in the back seat of a patrol car while he son lay dying on the cold sidewalk, searches her home, arrests her older son on truancy tickets, let the old man’s family go in his home and remove belongings(s).

      What ever happened to subdue the shooter and not the victim or their family?

      When this first happened there was a report that his home had been broken into a couple of times but his family has also been removing guns here and there because his tail was old and losing his mind. His family could have taken his guns and he killed an innocent child.

      The mother is good because if someone would have kill my child in front of my I would have pick up a brick or any heavy object and commenced to trying to knock his brains out.

      Old racist coot.

  130. Wanna says:

    Judge Nelson’s conduct was suspect to me the entire trial. She did not properly apply the Frye ruling on the audio expert, she was in error failing to let the state use its strikes with the jury selection, she allowed that stupid cartoon in, not ruling properly on sequester violation and now the jury instructions. Oh failing to make the courtroom trolls (MOM and West) act respectfully was a biggie with me. I think she need to pay a price and get voted out.

    • truthseeker66 says:

      Regarding Dunn trial. He is on 3rd judge. He
      is now claiming zimm law. AC will prosecute. Are we to expect

      a different outcome?

    • groans says:

      Get voted out? Are you kidding me? AS IF Seminole/Cesspool County voters are going to vote JN out for letting their baby home boy run free in his latest bullet-proof attire?!!

  131. Girlp says:

    Did they release any evidence in the Jordan Davis case? If not I’m guessing the press did not ask for it.

  132. LiveByTheGulf says:

    When I vote for judges, I do not know their record. I look online to see their education and community activity. But how would I find how fair they are in the courtroom.

    Someone wrote in Letters to the Editor about the horrible judge’s opinion – and I wanted that judge out. However, I no longer remember the judge’s name.

    • endlessummer76 says:

      It can be difficult to find information on judges, and they are some of the most powerful people in our land. Sometimes this website is helpful: judgepedia.org

  133. You are again grasping at straws a neighborhood watch following someone is not a aggressor, why laws need to change a neighborhood watch is to unstable and in this case no training and two men confront each other got out of hand for no good reason and one ended up dead and my question to you is if trayvon killed Zimmerman how would you feel if trayvon was found innocent

    • Woow! says:

      Go away!!!! and yes I am yelling.

      A reasonable person serving as a neighborhood watch would not follow a suspicious person nor confront them. If Travyon would have killed George I would be perfectly happy because of these known facts

      1. George was a paranoid wanna be cop with a history of call NEN and 911 on suspicious black people
      2. He had a criminal record
      3. He was taking medication known to make you aggressive and paranoid
      4. He was a child stalker
      5. there is no law against a person walking minding their own business. It is a free country and TM had a right to walk at anytime of the day and night
      6. he has a history of losing his temper
      7. the bastard is a racist

      shooo and Go away

    • LiveByTheGulf says:

      You’re altering the situation and that would affect how many other changes would have to be made in order for the shooting to be reversed.
      In this case, Fogen approached. Rachel heard Trayvon say “Get off.” The first one to start the aggression is at an advantage – because the aggressor can make choices to ensure the fight is in the aggressor’s favor..

      How Trayvon would get the gun to shoot when the aggressor started the fight and had the gun?

    • ks says:

      LOL. A NW with a loaded gun who espressed anger, watched, followed and chased a minor in the dark who ran away from him is absolutely an agressor. In reality, not bogus hypotheticals, if TM had killed GZ, he would have been arrested on the spot, held without bail and already been convicted despite his clear self defense claim that he was being chased by a hostile stanger adult in the dark with a loaded gun.

    • There were not two men!
      A predator and an unarmed teenager struggling for his life!

    • Cercando Luce says:

      George Zimmerman had 14 documented hours of training in Neighborhood Watch from Sanford Police. He had also taken many credit hours of coursework towards a degree in police work.

      I agree with you that there was no good reason to kill.

    • aussie says:

      If he killed him under these circumstances? being stalked by a guy with a gun? Stand Your Ground, plain and simple.

      Of course being black, he’d be lucky to survive being arrested, so the question is moot.

    • lurker says:

      In reality, we have to look realistically at exactly what must have happened in the first moments of confrontation. We have two accounts. In one gz is obediently returning (very slowly) to his truck when he is attacked for no reason and with murderous intent. In the other a frightened Trayvon believes he has lost the person following him only to see him reappear and asks why he is following him. Follows a hit and scuffle.

      We know that gz followed Trayvon and his account would require an incredibly slow pace returning. It is further very unlikely that Trayvon attacked with no intent or provocation. Far more likely that gz deliberately sought Trayvon out and initiated a conflict by trying to detain him.

      This is stuff that should have been in the prosecution’s case.

    • J4TMinATL says:

      You didn’t ask or insert how and with what TM could accomplish that in your version. If it was with a gun, well Trayvon would have to answer as to why at 17 he is carrying a gun. Then you might wonder why is a 17 year old the neighborhood watch person. See you can’t just change the names. It’s not REASONABLE. And it ain’t common sense. Carry on.

  134. Woow! says:

    Where ever CAC go the local police department will be wary of him in their community. Hopefully he will not be allowed to abuse 911 again.

    I wish some of 911 operators would talk.

    • Girlp says:

      I’m beginning to think that doesn’t matter so much in Florida, maybe in Miami.

    • Malisha says:

      The police were in on this murder and they were in on the cover-up and they were in on the acquittal. So, no, police are not going to depart from that three-for-three anywhere in Florida ever, against Fogen. Fogen has already received the police “killer of the year” award and he will get it next year too. The fact that Serino caved means all the police who ever have anything to do with Fogen will be his obedient servants. He didn’t just get to JOIN the police; he got to RULE them. They’re sissies and liars and they deserve being ruled by a soft, fat, high-hollowpoint, low-testosterone impotent shimmying wiggle-ass pasha like him.

  135. LiveByTheGulf says:

    The beginning of the end is when MOM got a new judge. The prior judge had seen fogen’s lying and made statements seen as prejudice towards his client. So fogen got a conservative judge. That’s when I realized that the verdict would probably be not guilty.

    How do you head this off at the pass in future trials.

  136. esentrick says:

    Professor and all…I know the FBI was not able to determine whether or not the child murder stated “coons” but have you ever heard of or had experience of law enforcement agencies using NASA technology? I mean, wouldnt they (NASA) be able to isolate the word using their technology? I think if they are able to provide a clear version of that, it would provide more weight to the DOJ investigation. Thoughts?

    • Boyd says:

      dude, if that tape was a bin laden tape, they would damm sure what was said.

      • Boyd says:

        know what was said

      • ay2z says:

        don’t need NASA to tell that the word was NOT punks.

        The state knew it, Serino knew it.

        (not c-c-cold, and Frank the tank knew it, not ‘goons’, and Joe Oliver knew it)

        The jury could listen, and should have listened, for themselves. So important for the defense ton not have any AA person on the jury, because that would be a risk that he, she or they , would listen for themselves and decide.

        • ay2z says:

          (as the jurors should all have done, listened for themselves, and at least decided if it was punks or not– that was so clear)

          • Puck says:

            They would have conjured up “reasonable” doubt that there might have been a raccoon problem at the RATL and one scuttled out of a trash can, which upset poor Georgie.

  137. Girlp says:

    What happen with Trent Sawyer? All his viedo’s are gone as well as his Twitter accoutn.

    • ay2z says:

      Oh no!

      I had a feeling he could have run into a big roadblock in his attempt to get a seat at trial.

      Hope he’s ok and that was his decision, not forced.

      • Girlp says:

        fI’m get the feeling that’s what happened. Trent has first amendment rights too. If they did force him to take down his twitter account then Jr’s rants should be deleted also.

        • J4TMinATL says:

          Wait who is Trent? Is he the guy that couldn’t get a seat in visitor section? And even if Trent is that guy, who was he? And what videos. Sorry, I’m clueless as to who Trent is.

        • Johnnie says:

          Girlp, check out the previous thread. Someone posted a 30-minute video by Trent indicating he is letting this go. Great video and Trent is his usual, honest, straight forward, funny self. He speaks so much truth. Unfortunately, he states he will never get this personally involved in another case. It is toward the end of the thread. I will greatly miss him. And as Trent fondly states, “George Zimmerman fans are fucking idiots.” LOL.

  138. ay2z says:

    Quoting AC360, scroll down to big smiling face of Trayvon for this story and video.

    Goes directly to the heart of Prof’s conclusion about something missing– this iswhat she says, the ‘roles changed’.


    July 17th, 2013
    12:06 AM ET

    Juror B37: We did care about Trayvon Martin

    In an exclusive interview on AC360, Juror B37 talked to Anderson Cooper about the sadness she feels for Trayvon Martin and his family.

    “I feel bad that we can’t give them the verdict that they wanted, but legally we could not do that.”

    The juror said Martin played a “huge role in his death, ” because he could have walked away from the confrontation with Zimmerman. “He didn’t have to do whatever he did and come back and be in a fight.”

    Juror B37 told Anderson that she thought Zimmerman’s actions were in self-defense. “I think the roles changed, I think George got in a little bit too deep, which he shouldn’t have been there. But Trayvon decided that he wasn’t gonna let him scare him … and I think Trayvon got mad and attacked him.”


    (blockquotes doesn’t seem to work with the inset quotations)

    • Boyd says:

      “I feel bad that we can’t give them the verdict that they wanted, but legally we could not do that.”

      what did that mean?

      • KateW says:

        She makes not one lick of sense. Where does or did she get he didn’t have to come back and be in a fight?? that was no where in the evidence that he went back to get into a fight. Trayvon decided he wasn’t going to let him scare him? Really lady? And you based that off of what?

        I can’t believe these jury members allowed this half wit and others convince them to change their verdict. How do you let someone who obviously is not looking at any of the evidence tell you what is what. So beyond ridiculous.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          B37 clearly cannot listen to judge’s instructions regarding striking testimony (serino) and that what attorneys say is not evidence.

          ignorant and prejudiced woman — but one of georgie’s ‘peers’ no doubt.

      • Vickis Smith says:

        @Boyd- she felt that the instructions re the kinds of charges were very confusing and that whatever they thought he was guilty of was not covered by either the M2 or manslaughter charges. She said laws needed to be changed.

    • Boyd says:

      boy I think, I think, is not enough for 6 people to let a killer to walk.

      I think the roles stayed the same, I wish I was in that Jury room

  139. Boyd says:

    So your telling me Fogen got off because of the language Don West put into the instructions? The instructions approved by JN.

    Holy Cow they fixed the trial right in front of all faces.

    West won the majority of his objections, forced JN to throw out the audio experts and you know how he used that to his advantage.

  140. Woow! says:

    Four of the jurors say B37 does not speak for them. Does she 5th juror agree with B37?

    • J4TMinATL says:

      Where is source for that? Thanks.

    • groans says:

      I agree: The jury “didn’t give a shit about the gravity of what they were deciding.”

    • lurker says:

      My guess is that she was the hold-out. It sounds like in the end she simply ran out of arguments and gave in.

    • abbyj1 says:

      Woow!, if they all disagree with B37 and the final juror refuses to speak, then how did they all reach unanimity and consensus of NOT GUILTY? How did that happen, if four of the jurors have issued their statement that B37 “does not speak for us”? This is such B.S.

  141. KateW says:

    The forensic evidence as I saw it

    1. injuries were not consistent with being beat to death. 25 blow and 25 slams to concrete? His head would be split like a melon and he would likely be unconscious. Drew also made a good point and that is if Martin was this strong, wouldn’t he have taken the gun from this guy and beat him with it?

    2. Scratches on the top of his head. How did he get scratches on the top of his head??? BDLR pointed out “did Martin turn him upside down on the concrete, did Martin pick it up and beat him over the head with it?”

    3. His injuries are not consistent with a concrete beating. I have scraped my skin on concrete and there is a lot of shearing and tearing. His cuts to the back of his head would not have been this neat. He claims he tried to wiggle out during the bashing. He should have had scrapes up and down the back of his thick skull.

    4. There was absolutely no blood on Martin’s hands. That evidence refuted and rebuked one of claims.

    5. It would have been physically impossible for Martin to see or attempt to remove his weapon. a) it was too dark. b)impossible given the position. Martin would have had to have been straddling his ankles in order to see his gun on his hip and even then it was still too dark. That refuted another one of his claims.

    6. The inconsistent statements speak for themselves. I will pick this one because I thought it was silly. The kid jumped from the bushes and attacked me. When he went back for the SPD walk-through he said UH OH. There weren’t bushes big enough to hide a 5’11 158 kid. That is also part of the SPD cover up because they allowed him to see his error and adjust his statements accordingly.

    There were so many opportunities for the prosecution to link these up. WHAT THE HECK HAPPENED? Stealth jurors, that’s what. I can’t say all the women lacked common sense because there were 3 that were on the right track. How they let their verdict be swayed is beyond me. The evidence speaks for itself.

    • MDH says:

      Re item 2, I tried to see where my head would hit if it was slammed back onto pavement and noted that the impact point was much lower than the GZ wounds.

      In fact, I tried to recreate everything GZ said happened and failed.

      It seems to me that the jury did not bother to try.

      For example, have one member scream while another is pressing down hard on her nose and mouth.

      Or ask for some red fluid to simulate blood, dab it all over the tip one jurors nose and let another press their hands on it to note what happens.

      A duty of a jury is to make findings of facts.

      This jury was a failure of epic proportions.

      Its like they did not give a shit about the gravity of what they were deciding. I mean a young, innocent boy had his life taken.

      They are as sick as the guy who asked GZ about his ammo while Trayvon laid dying.

    • Boyd says:

      and they ignored his excuses.

  142. sadlyyes says:

    my last post did not post ,is it because i called JN an abomination?

    • aussie says:

      No. There’s no word filter here.
      But putting 2 links in will send you to moderation even if you’re a foundation member.

      If you need to put 2 links, just put one, then add the other as a “reply” to your own comment.

  143. sadlyyes says:


  144. aussie says:

    How about they make juries give their reasons?

  145. Boyd says:

    Fogen already called Police, he did not need to call again, he was getting the gun out not the cell phone. I’m also expected to believe he went form screaming his lungs out to calmly appearing “like it was nothing” and did he have a hoarse voice in the police interview? NO

    Could the ME have look at the kid’s throat for soreness, redness?

  146. amsterdam1234 says:

    It was taken out during arguments about the jury instruction.
    It begins at 3:00 min.

    • Boyd says:

      Thanks Amsterdam, if the Jurors believe what they did was right. Judge Nelson never should have given it to the Jury.

    • J4TMinATL says:

      Well in video they are discussing provocation. What would the provocation statement be that was left out. How would it read?

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        This is the language that was removed.

        Aggressor. § 776.041, Fla. Stat.
        The use of non-deadly force is not justified if you find:
        Give if applicable.
        1. (Defendant) was attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of a (applicable forcible felony).
        Define applicable forcible felony.
        2. (Defendant) initially provoked the use of force against [himself] [herself], unless:
        a. The force asserted toward the defendant was so great that [he] [she] reasonably believed that [he] [she] was in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and had exhausted every reasonable means to escape the danger, other than using non-deadly force on (assailant).
        b. In good faith, the defendant withdrew from physical contact with (assailant) and indicated clearly to (assailant) that [he] [she] wanted to withdraw and stop the use of non-deadly force, but (assailant) continued or resumed the use of force.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      The prosecution should’ve argued that there was evidence that GZ started the fight. Rachel Jeantel testified, she heard something bumping Trayvon’s microphone, followed by Trayvon screaming ” get off, get off”. She should’ve allowed it to go to the jury, and let them decide which evidence to believe. The lying liar, or the dead kid’s friend.

      • Boyd says:

        so they all wanted to believe Fogen. well they should say the truth and stop blaming the court, they’re saying they had no choice.

      • Actually, Mantei argued exactly that, but JN eliminated the provocation language anyway since “the defense doesn’t want it and the state does, the court is not going to give it.”

        • J4TMinATL says:

          Even though defense put it in there for discussion as West states. I think she got confused. And I agree Mantei argued exactly that and it confused JN because West was objecting to West.

      • J4TMinATL says:

        In the video you posted, the first one, JN says to Mantei “OR”…saying I think it’s an either or situation not both.

        But I’m not sure what she is referring to when she said the word OR.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      Just realized the argument in this video is cut off. Here is the next part.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      And here is the last part of the argument.

  147. Woow! says:

    If George call 911 to report a suspicious looking black person what do you think the operator will do?

  148. EdgySF says:


  149. Woow! says:

    In the recorded jail tape Shelly told CAC they were going to have a wonderful life. Where? He will have to move to another country.

    In the U.S. George will have to live in an all white community of like minded people. He will be so paranoid that a black person is going to kill him that he might slip up and kill again out of fear.

    Where is he going to work? Company’s will hire him if he is qualified but how will he interact with the employees, especially of they are black? I can see him now reporting the black to HR for looking at him funny or checking him out being paranoid.

    Where is he going to live? I hope in an all white area. What is that town in Arkansas that is all white and the headquarters for the KKK. That is where he need to live.

    If millions were donated to them they had better invest well to live off of it for the rest of their lives because interacting with the public is going to be difficult with their paranoia.

    He wants to go to law school now. Well, you have to finish community college and then get a four year degree first. Good luck with that one when you failed CC.

    • MDH says:

      A friend of mine from Memphis told me the name of that town is Paragould. According to the census, it is 0.04% black.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      In the U.S. George will have to live in an all white community of like minded people.

      from the sound of it, he can set up housekeeping in B37’s basement. :/

    • pat deadder says:

      What frigging country would take fogen.Remember the guy he harassed at the car company.Fogen was eventually fired because he kept going over his supervisors heads complaining about the way things were being done and of course he had better ideas.The man is crazier than a loon.I know this small thing didn’t bother anyone else and it was so insignifigant in the scheme of things but when he kept adjusting his jacket and tie it drove me crazy and I felt like giving him a real broken nose. I wouldn’t do such a thing because even if I find an ant in the house I carry it outside in a Kleenex and let it lose.I’m going to watch the Waltons now for the first time in weeks.May God be with Trayvon’s family.

    • Vickis Smith says:

      There are states where most residents would accept him- Idaho, Alaska- and many more.

      Now colleges would be wary, out of concern for the other students’ safety. What business would employ him if they feared for their employees’ safety?

      But this won’t be like the others who have gotten away with killing, because of the large amount of those in Zimmerman’s corner (most of which are mainly ignorant of the facts and have heard bits and pieces of the case, at best). He will find friends, but, nevertheless, if he stays in this country he will be looking over his shoulder for a long time.

  150. Drew says:

    Maybe the best sentence for a wannabe cop is a lifetime of ridicule for being such a pussy. Let’s just mock him until he can’t live with it anymore.

    Seriously I would have beaten all the schoolyard bullies back in the day if I had a gun and was allowed to shoot all of them and get away with it bc I feared imminent harm.

    • groans says:

      Hey, CAC! All your friends say you’re a fat, soft, sissy – who can’t do a THING to defend himself or his family unless he’s got a gun fully loaded with hollow point bullets! And they say you SCREAM AND CRY like a child when you’re wrestling with a child!

      Then you go running to your mommy and daddy and big brother for help, while wearing a BULLET-PROOF VEST!

      “Help me! Help me! I’m SOOOOOOOO SCARED!!” You little PUSSY shit!! You’ll NEVER be a man in anyone’s eyes … NEVER!

      Hey! LOOK OUT! Who’s that following you?!! (Hee, hee. Just playin’ wit ya … no one’s there.)

      HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!! 😈

      • aussie says:

        Problem is one day someone will recognise him

        “Hey, aren’t you George Zimmerman? the guy who killed a kid? HEY everybody this is George Zimmerman”.


        “I’m the most hated man in America. I thought he was going to hit me…..”

  151. Drew says:

    Why’d Zimm carry a gun anyway with all the pavement in the area?

    Why do guns even exist when there are streets and sidewalks?

    Next time I get challenged to a duel, I’m gonna let the other dude have my gun and just insist that the venue is a parking lot.

  152. TheUsualSuspects says:

    It is my understanding that Florida case law prohibits the “initial aggressor” jury instruction for self-defense unless there is a separate, independent forcible felony charged. Appellate issues regarding the self-defense jury instruction seem to be all the rage in Florida. I think the case I read was Martinez v. State if anyone wants to review and expound.

    • J4TMinATL says:


      User @fauxy is looking into it too. Fauxy is looking at Giles v State.

      • TheUsualSuspects says:

        Thanks, J4. Please see my response to fauxy upthread.

        • J4TMinATL says:

          Thank you I went back up and read your reply and Amsterdam’s aggressor instructions.

          When you Google Dooley case you find article that states this:

          The “stand your ground” law is the same law being invoked in the fatal shooting of Trayvon Martin in Sanford by George Zimmerman — a case with many similarities. There, lawyers also dispute which one was actually standing his ground.

          That statement was not true because defense dropped that “defense”. Once STY was not being argued, we lost provocation instructions. Then we lost again because of the felony clause needed to add it back.

          • LeaNder says:

            So it’s simply defense strategy? Makes sense. But I surely hope they cannot have it both ways and try to get immunity from civil proceedings now too. Had they seriously believed they could get it would have needed to be in the instructions it feels.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Why wasn’t Fogen charged with discharging a firearm in city limits or near dwellings or whatever the statutes are? Because of SYG? Truly dangerous. What if the bullet had missed Trayvon (oh, how I wish) but ended up in the heart of some kid inside one of the townhomes? Or even just going through a window and scaring the bejesus out of someone? Bet that would have created an uproar.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      yup, sadly, that is just how i perceive these instructions – am awaiting confirmation from fred if i have erred.

    • groans says:

      Huge blunder by the prosecution, then. Their Information seemed to make CAC out to be an aggressor, provoking the entire scenario and sequence of events. But … OOPS! They forgot about that little “forcible felony” detail?! WTF?

  153. Woow! says:

    Juror B37 said she considered evidence not presented at trial when making her decision.


    • J4TMinATL says:

      We already know that. No bearing in how instructions were written.

    • Boyd says:

      Your wrestling with a guy with a gun, the only way to get off him is when the gun is in your hands.

    • aussie says:

      After saying in voire dire that she knew just about nothing about the case.

    • anita says:

      She says all kinds of crazy stuff. She is a dumb-ass. I watched the whole interview. So much of what she says is contradictory to something she said 5 min. earlier.

    • groans says:

      I heard that she also referenced the SYG law, even though the jury instructions did not include SYG.

      Juries terrify me. There’s just no telling what they will do.

      • anita says:

        ~groans She did. You should watch the entire interview. It’ s infuriating, you’ll be left just shaking your head, like WTF?

        • groans says:

          Anita – I’ve felt such rage since the verdict that I haven’t dared watch her interview(s) yet for fear of exploding. But I think I’ll be able to watch them soon (I say “them” because I think AC360 had her on two nights?).

      • abbyj1 says:

        Did you guys happen to hear the breaking news that the jury is “so traumatized” that the court is now making available counselors to “help them through this”??

        • Girlp says:

          Are they feeling guilty about their virdict now? I have serious doubts…well maybe the ones that wanted to convict him of something.

        • LiveByTheGulf says:

          Wonder what the reason is for the jury to feel so traumatized. That they made the wrong choice? When they see how many protests through the US? When they see all the talks on TV and how they disagree with the jurists?

          I have no sympathy for the jury. My sympathy is for Trayvon’s family, all the people that are in fear of walking free in public; and for parents who have to give their children “the talk”.

        • pat deadder says:

          abbyj1 the jury is so traumatized the court is making counselors available.Yes The court is probably going to warn them to shut up.I think something is fishy.I think somebody got to them and they may be thinking of speaking out or how would taffee know there was one hold out.Somethings rotten in the state of Denmark.

          • groans says:

            Everything about this trial was fishy … so why not post-verdict, court-appointed counselors for the jurors? WTF? Seminole’s got an endless amount of shit in its cesspool county! Very foul.

            Oh, Gee – those pitiful “traumatized” jurors. If they want to know what traumatized REALLY feels like, they should pick up a phone and talk to Sybrina and Tracy!

            BTW, I believe I heard that B37, her ignorant self, said that there was one “hold out.” LOL! I think in order for there to be a “hold out,” someone would actually have to hold out!!

            What a farce all around. SMH.

        • type1juve says:

          So they’re “traumatized?” WTF do they think the Martin/Fulton family must be feeling? I will not give them a pass on this. They knew exactly what they were doing and still didn’t give a damn. I hope Trayvon haunts every last mofo that had a hand in this miscarriage of justice!

  154. J4TMinATL says:

    @ fauxy and prof

    When MOM announced GZ was claiming regular self defense as opposed to stand your ground self defense, he stated SYG did not apply in this case.

    SYG would have aggressor instructions correct? And self defense would not?

    • fauxmccoy says:

      i am slowly getting through the standard jury instructions — it’s a 705 page document. the trial would have the standard ‘justifiable homicide’ instructions because it was not a SYG hearing. there would be no jury instructions for SYG because there is no jury, it’s the judge who decides.

      i have a long post up thread about the self defense instructions and it seems to me that in order to have them included, a separate crime other than M2 would have to be charged (lesser includeds would not count). that is my understanding upon reading the instructions and appellate rulings, i am awaiting fred’s input.

      • J4TMinATL says:


        Yep. The defense outsmarted the State by quietly dropping SYG defense to regular self defense thereby not needing a SYG hearing. Only hearing they get is standard JOA.

        I can’t believe no one explored the strategy behind the change. The focus at that time was oh he waived his hearing he must be guilty when in fact it was so much more than that. GZ was put on stand during bond hearing under Lester and never heard from again.

        Claim SYG, you have to take stand, claim self defense, you don’t.

        I feel duped.

      • J4TMinATL says:

        I thought with SYG you got SYG judge hearing and if judge decided no, case moves on to jury.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          if you win your SYG hearing, then there is no jury trial, obviously. if the judge denies SYG then it does go to jury trial. i don’t see anything (so far) in the standard jury instructions which reference any instruction related to SYG, so far, all i am finding is the standard ‘justifiable homicide’ instructions. although my search is not complete, i see no “SYG’ jury instruction.

        • Correct. That’s what the statute says.

        • riisey007 says:

          Yes but from what I heard on HLN that SYG is snuck back into the self defense instructions. Florida is a son of a bitch. I wouldn’t be caught slipping in Florida.

  155. MDH says:

    My argument is that the facts prove that fatty was a liar. So his statements should not have any probative value. The forensic evidence shows no life threating injuries. Therefore, how can on take the statement of a proven liar that he was in fear for his life as reasonable. Therefore, fatty should be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Richard Nixon: “I am not a crook”

    The Stepford Wives who ruled on GZ: “Well, he is president and George Washington did not tell lies, so there was no cover up”

  156. Boyd says:

    Read your opening Professor. I replaced the name Zimmerman with Martin and I found Not Guilty. Add in following, the pendulum swings to Zimmerman guilty. The Fogen ‘deer hunt’ was a direct connection to the killing.

    Why was not following considered?

  157. lurker says:

    I read Malisha’s long post on the previous thread and was moved to respond to our mutual sense of hopelessness.

    I think I might summarize as noting that we are drawn to the struggle by the plight of individual trees, and when we fail, we are forced to again take a look at the forest and become overwhelmed by the state of things.

    I have been thinking long and hard here, not only from a perspective of how to fit this latest piece into what I know of the world, but also by way of considering how to move forward in some struggle for justice.

    Mark Geragos, whose comments I found supremely annoying during the trial, has been helpful in the post-mortem. He has been pointing back to the things that we know and are demonstrable about the interactions of race and justice in America. We know that blacks are more likely to be arrested for their crimes. We know that they are less likely to have adequate defense and when judged by all white juries more likely to be found guilty and receive harsher sentences. When confronted with this, Angela Corey assured him that none of those things are considered–meaning consciously called into use, in planning for a trial. And I am certain that she is telling the truth.

    I also believe that the juror is telling the truth when she believes that the case was not about race.She has no experience in examining such things and very likely considerable experience in their denial.

    I am old enough to remember some of the painfully awkward things that we did during the 1960s under the general umbrella of “consciousness-raising.” Uncomfortable groups of blacks and whites sitting in circles talking about themselves and asking questions. We didn’t arrive at understanding that “we are all the same under the skin.” But, in fact, there were some who moved forward with new understandings, relationships and life choices.

    It happens that my church denomination is holding a national convention in Orlando this week. Someone introduced a resolution in support of the AG’s investigation. I read some of the comments, but had to stop. Even though I love my church and denomination, they are all just folks and have about as much ugly inside as anyone else. Lotta folks found the resolution divisive and political. Whatever. But, I do think that there is a role for churches and other front line organizations to return to work that builds understanding that may long term infect our jury pool, judges, police, prosecutors and others, with healthier attitudes towards race.

    • Beverly says:

      Thank you for reporting that.

    • Malisha says:

      Oh there’s a role for everyone and so forth. What I meant to convey amounted to:

      (1) My prediction, based on many things but not the least of them being my own empirical evidence, is that this country is headed for Hell and it will take itself there, dragging along those of us who do not deserve it with some of those who do; and

      (2) When a person recognizes both hopelessness and battle fatigue, let that person go to her resources and figure out two things: FIRST, why? and Second (and last), OK, so what?

  158. Drew says:

    Also if *I’m* the one running around with a gun, why am I so scared for my life again?

    Oh yeah – cuz Black Thugz. I forgot.

    • Girlp says:

      If I’m so scared why get out of the car in the first place…oh maybe because I have a gun on my hip. If Trayvon was looking into windows and checking car doors why didn’t he tell NEN, all he ever told the operator was that Trayvon was walking and looking about, then he says he’s checking me out as soon as Trayvon runs he states “Shit he ran”. George immediately got out of his vehicle and chased after Trayvon and Trayvon did not know it until he was behind him again, Trayvon had no intentions of attacking George. He committed murder and got away with it along with an endorsement from a juror no less.

  159. Drew says:

    If I’m beating someone to death, because I’m this athletic black monster right, and I’m just pounding this helpless doughy whitey into the pavement like a rag doll, I’m probably gonna be able to easily grab the gun from him when he pulls it out and just start pistol whipping him with it, or just knock it away.

    How does his lie make any sense in terms of self defense?

    If there’s an equally matched struggle, perhaps both parties are vying for the gun, and someone ends up getting shot, I could see that happening – but even then, it’s not justified as self-defense.

    Or maybe there’s a brutal beating, but somehow the beaten guy gets loose and pulls out the gun.

    But fatty said he was literally being beaten to death one minute – while screaming, no less, something I believe would not be possible as you’re getting smashed into the ground and concussed – and then the next moment he magically whipped out his gun and saved himself from death. And then magically healed up within moments, too!

    This should have been the central argument.

    • KateW says:

      This is a good point too Drew. THis is why common sense was so important and BDLR kept harping on it because the evidence was overwhelming but a lot of what the killer said made no sense.

      One of the things BDLR brought up that caught my attention was when he said John Goode never saw the killer’s hands. Where were his hands? Then it hit me and my conclusion was he already had the out and Martin was trying to protect himself. So think of this…Martin has his hand on the killer’s right hand or arm that is clutching the pistol and Martin is trying to get up. The killer said he was about to do some MMA wrist move and move Martin’s left hand out of the way, raise his arm and fire the gun. Another reason I say Martin was trying to get up…if Di Maeo says the gun had to be 2-4″ from the body…isn’t that significant. That is some distance. Meaning he had to be far enough away to fire for the muzzle of the gun to be 2-4″ away. If Martin was over him or beating him into concrete he would have had to press the muzzle of the gun to his chest. There would not have been a 2-4″ distance.

      • Boyd says:

        Yes, no one ever talked about where Fogen’s hands were?

        TRYING TO GET THE GUN. B-37 that’s why he dropped the keys

    • Boyd says:

      exactly, the “thug” against the Pillsbury dough boy.
      then after the shot, he’s “acting like it was nothing”

      Then Donnelly, did anyone ask him if he would scream if a gun pointed at his heart was about to be fired into his chest?

      I THOUGHT I liked the prosecution , a week later, they were terrible.

  160. J4TMinATL says:

    Was it omitted because defense quietly changed their claim to regular self defense instead of stand your ground?

  161. Drew says:

    “If they’re black, you must attack.”

  162. Drew says:

    Dunn’s lawyer is stupid. Shouldn’t have said he saw a gun, should have said the four black thugs threatened to smash my head into the concrete and I feared imminent death.

  163. Stormwatch says:

    Can a member of the public who is not a litigant in a case file a complaint with the Judicial Qualifications Commission in Florida?

  164. Drew says:

    Regardless of the omission of that instruction, couldn’t you kill someone and ALWAYS get off if you:

    1) claim via proxy (police testimony, police video) they were brutally beating you
    2) not take the stand to be cross examined

  165. KateW says:

    Probably a “weird” question but has this judge ever tried a criminal case before? Or are judges able to sit on any case? I hope I am asking that right.

    • Yes, she has been a judge for 13 years and presided over many criminal trials.

      • KateW says:

        Then wouldn’t she have known that “instruction” should have been balanced? I keep going back to this but it really reads one sided. If the defense wanted her to remove the other part, then it leaves the instruction unbalanced. That is why I asked if she has ever tried a criminal case. Not that I would know any better because I have no law experience.

        • Malisha says:

          Judges have almost unlimited power. She balanced this the way she wanted the thing to fall. She knew exactly what balance she was striking. She sure fooled ME! Right up until the rebuttal moment. She fooled me that long. Damn!

        • fauxmccoy says:

          jury instructions are relatively standard and come from a group of judges which write them in accordance with state law. you can find the entire set at http://tinyurl.com/knpchye. because of florida legislation, self defense instructions heavily favor the defendant. there is nothing ‘balanced’ about them.

      • KateW says:

        or that the part you say is missing should have been included.

      • J4TMinATL says:

        And she ruled in another self defense case.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      Here ya go:
      Frederick Leatherman, you’ll let me know if I’m being an enabler, right?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I wonder what her personal feelings are about SYG and the case. Perhaps she’s more of a looney than we thought.

        • groans says:

          She was originally appointed as a judge by Jeb Bush.
          That says plenty about her right there.

          (Source: judgepedia article, linked above.)

          • groans says:

            Hell, Florida Republicans proved that they can throw a national presidential election. So, throwing a criminal case about a dead black kid would be mere child’s play, to them!

          • abbyj1 says:

            Groan, that’s what I’ve been thinking, too. If she was appointed by Jeb, then that’s who she owes her alliance to: the entire political structure that supported him. She’s not going to befoul her own nest and ruin her tenure on the bench.

  166. I recall that JN removed provocation as well, but I need to go back and listen to argument on the instructions.

    On another note, hypothetically, if juror misconduct/tampering is found, will jeopardy fail to attach in the initial trial such that a new trial could occur? I’m not wanting FL to retry this AT ALL, but just curious about it.

    • The prosecution can’t appeal a not-guilty verdict.

    • J4TMinATL says:

      I think Mantai objected to the wording surrounded by “the act” and “negligence.” I’ve got to go back and watch too.

      • Malisha says:

        B-37 apparently said that “negligible things” Fogen did shouldn’t count against him. The dumb … uh … the unintelligent female juror was probably talking about “negligent” things (such as following a kid in the dark after you’ve been advised not to do that) that she thought should not cause a manslaughter verdict. Ugh. Disgusting people. Oh if I were … again, never mind.

      • bettykath says:

        I’ve been trying to recall that part of the discussion. Mantei wanted it in, the defense wants it out, JN decided, it’s out, no discussion necessary.

        • bettykath says:

          no discussion and the only rationale was that the defense didn’t want it. It actually did a great job of gutting the state’s case.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I’m a little dense about laws and trials. I don’t understand these jury instructions. Does the judge make their own jury instructions based on state law? How does one exclude something that’s so commonsense and related to the prosecution’s stance? How can a verdict stand if there were judicial mistakes as well as jury misunderstanding of critical evidence?

      • fauxmccoy says:

        there is a huge list of standardjury instructions which are compiled by a group of judges. (http://tinyurl.com/knpchye). in every trial, the prosecution and defense have the argument over jury instructions that we saw in this case and decisions are made as to what is included/excluded.

        • Two sides to a story says:


          I don’t understand why they should be argued. Seems like you have something that is permanently applicable to all cases, not something that can be twisted this way and that.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            i have posted the link a few times — i can get it again if you want, but it’s dull stuff. it is formatted so that sections are taken out if not applicable.

            i cannot say that i understand why the provoking part was removed. i also think it would have made little difference to this group of jurors.

    • aussie says:

      The defence also bargained for, and got, “George Zimmerman” in the wording instead of “the defendant”.

  167. Whip says:

    If I have a reasonable doubt as to whether he was justified, wouldn’t he be guilty?

  168. Woow! says:

    Black people will see more strides made in the future because we are no longer fighting this fight alone. We have all of you standing with us :). There are more kind and loving white people (people of all races) than there are bigoted racists. They have been in control far to long. We have to ban together and knock them out of power.

    Look what we accomplished when we fought for an arrest and trial.

    We can do it. Are you ready for the fight?

    • cielo62 says:

      Woow!~ One thing I’ve noticed is that biracial couples are getting pretty common and biracial children are more common as a result. This is a GOOD thing. So many beautiful hues of humans! I noticed it absently, as a curiosity that comes from people watching. But surely this reality will change how people are perceived and treated. Will it be for fairer treatment or more racism? Only WE can make that difference.


      • Girlp says:

        It is I have read that youth do not identify with the current views of the Repulblican Party they are outdated, also they seem to have no idea how to reach out to minorities other than to insult Brown and Black people and somehow we are suppose to appreciate and accept how terrible we are… It takes time and right now we are taking steps backward but recently more and more Dems are taking votes away, the Republicans are winning by smaller margins. I have hope.

        • cielo62 says:

          Girlp~ Reach out to the very people they are destroying? LOL! I will NEVER understand a rational minority person voting GOP. GWB won over the hispanic vote because he was so rabidly anti-homosexual, just like the catholic church. That changed once the GOP finished with using their votes to destroy any kind of rational immigration bill. The GOP hasn’t recovered from that, and hopefully never will.


          • Girlp says:

            That’s what they claim they are going to do only they keep insulting Black and Brown people and wonder why we won’t vote for them… on top of that SCOTUS Thomas, West and Cane call us stupid sheep and then expect us to respond by supporting them.

          • abbyj1 says:

            True, Cielo. Rove was adept at finding the wedge issue for the particular minority for GWB to appeal to: Rabid anti-gay rhetoric, feminazi rantings, DOMA, and everything they could to bring in “others” under false pretenses. It wasn’t as if that administration was even remotely interested in the needs of different ethnic and racial groups, not at all. They just suckered them in with “Viva Bush!!!”

            The GOP has a serious problem in trying to bring into their tiny, exclusive tent the very groups they loathe and despise. So full of hypocrisy. I hope that minorities and women vote in massive numbers to bury the GOP once and for all. Their mantra should be: “Fool me once . . fool me twice . . “

        • riisey007 says:

          I am down with the swirl myself. I love it. My son actually has been in a great relationship with an Caucasion/israeli young lady. Her mother( Caucasion) loves him and her father(Israeli) does too although he claims he doesn’t like football players..lol
          I knew her mother due to her being a nurse at the hospital I work at but the father I wasn’t quite sure he would be happy with it, so I was a bit concerned, but the young lady wanted her father to meet my son, there was no sneaking and now they have been to ball games together and go out to eat with his girlfriend(Israeli)and him. So it goes to show, if you do not prejudice your kids to people they will not form racial attitudes. They will be fine. My son has friends of all races and they hang out together and they take care of each other. We as adults need to just stop the madness and lead by example. This is why Jesus always referred to his children.

      • truthseeker66 says:

        If they look biracial they r consideted blk. This increasis racism. I saw a white man from the south being interviewed on why he did not support Obama. He said it’s not cause he blk; it’s cause he a half breed.

        • cielo62 says:

          truthseeker~ And combined we ALL outnumber the white Caucasians. And THAT is what they fear the most.


        • abbyj says:

          truthseeker, You put your finger on it: desecration of white racial “purity” to them is worse than being black. That means a woman has been fraternizing with the enemy. “Half-breed,” such hatred.

      • Woow! says:

        Yes there are. More common is the black man/white woman or Asian. My neighborhood is fill with mixed families.

        I am seeing more white men marrying and dating black women in Dallas. I have two white man/black women couples on my street and I see plenty when out shopping or dining. We are changing for the better.

      • Vickis Smith says:

        How about biracial gay couple? :o)

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Yes, woow, I will stay active in this struggle for justice and equality!

      Count me in!

    • Malisha says:

      I would love to see African American veterans in this struggle, more visible than they are now. I wonder …

    • pat deadder says:

      Woow I think I love you.

    • vickie s. votaw says:

      Amen, wow!

    • riisey007 says:


  169. drjoann says:

    Even if Fogen were the intial aggressor, wouldn’t FL 776.041 still be in effect if he claimed that he was pinned to the ground and couldn’t disengage. I’m not sure how adding that part in woujld have helped if the jurors truly believed that ridiculous story.

    • Difficult to say, but the prosecution would have been better off with an aggressor instruction, I think.

      • TheUsualSuspects says:

        Hi, Fred:

        It looks like Giles v. State and Martinez v. State prohibit the “initial aggressor” jury instruction absent a charge of a separate, independent forcible felony.

        Based on the interview footage I’ve seen of Juror B-37, it seems one of the problems with the deliberations is that the jury did not review the law and evidence in terms of what was OBJECTIVELY reasonable. Everything B-37 spouts is what she believes GZ was thinking. That’s a SUBJECTIVE standard, not a reasonable one; yet, B-37 purports to under stand the jury instructions and the law. Major, colossal fail.

        I don’t think there is any excuse for asking for a clarification (because one clearly does not understand the manslaughter instruction), then arrogantly rendering a verdict without asking the specific question that would have helped shed some light.

        • J4TMinATL says:

          Exactly @theusual. Saturdays debacle came down to the ability to understand the instructions. They weren’t provi