We oppose violence and doxing jurors

Tuesday, July 16, 2013

Good morning:

I oppose the use or threatened use of violence against any person, including the defendant, his family and anyone associated with his trial. That includes doxing or threats to dox jurors.

George Zimmerman committed a terrible injustice when he murdered Trayvon Martin and the jury’s incomprehensible verdict shames the court and the community that rendered it.

Violence and doxing jurors are not the answer and I will ban anyone who advocates violence or doxing.

We are better than that.


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323 Responses to We oppose violence and doxing jurors

  1. J4TMinATL says:

    Ok on right now:

    Dr Drew – pundits discussing
    Hannity – idk arguing
    CNN- Piers Morgan – MOM

    CNN 360 at 10pm ET, 20 minutes of unaired B-37 comments.

  2. Elizabeth says:

    @Stormwatch not to be wiseass but. nope.
    I guess you mean Anderson Cooper.Please where can we read the transcript?
    She said some weird sounding things such as (about Rachel Jeantel):”She really did not want to be on that jury.”
    Sure I get that she mispoke but huh?

  3. Stormwatch says:

    I just read the transcripts from B37’s interview with Piers Morgan. She said she found Serino and Donnelly to be very credible. She also said that it was the doctors testimony that ultimately swayed her, but she could not remember his name. This woman was shopping a book deal the Sunday morning following the verdict. She then had the nerve to say that both individuals were responsible for the events of that night. I hope she never has a teenage son chased by a crazy psychotic guy with a gun.

    • bettykath says:

      she’s white, not to worry.

      • Malisha says:

        But Bettykath, I have been thinking on something intensely for a few days now: what if I were a 70-ish Black man living in central Florida who got a really bad diagnosis/prognosis from my doctor, and who felt that the Trayvon Martin case was the negation of my life’s hopes and dreams for justice in the future of my country, which I had served in the military. What if this put me over the edge and I left the house one day deciding that if I had six months to live, I’d as soon spend them in a hospital ward of the jail as a hospital ward of a hospital. What if I decided that my entree into the headlines were to shoot an unarmed white kid in a suburb one dark evening?

        If my son (who is white) were 17 now and we lived in any of the truly vicious states, near any area where there could be people coming unhinged because of the gross and intolerable injustice done to Trayvon and his family, I would keep my son inside until he was 30 and/or 6-1/2 feet tall and 250 pounds and armed to the teeth and trained like a double-degree BlackBelt. I’d be fearing the elderly madman who might not be content to express himself in weeping, or music, or prayer, or blogging, or antidepressants, or anything else. That man might live near any one of us privileged folks who think our white sons are safe.

        What I’m saying is that this decision has made every PERSON in this country unsafe. NOT just every Black kid, not just every Black kid in the South, not just every working class kid, not just every kid with attitude, but every * single * kid * and the kid’s family, friends, and acquaintances.

        NOBODY IS SAFE. This is my belief right now. And of course, as usual, the people who least deserve to bear the brunt of the trauma will be the ones who most often do.

        • bettykath says:

          What you say makes sense. What just happened makes everyone unsafe. Do you think in her white privileged unaware world that she’s that aware? She has changed her mind about the book b/c she had no idea of the pain that decision caused. I don’t think she lives in our time and place universe.

          btw, did you see that Turley put up another thread that oozed white privilege and tone deafness where Blacks are concerned? I stuck around for the next two fogen threads after you left. Called him out on each one, very specifically on the last one comparing his white privilege with that of B37. And finally left.

          • Malisha says:

            Some of the commenters over there are great but I won’t tolerate him just to chat with them. If I open the “Malisha Sez” blog they can come talk to me if they want.

    • Malisha says:

      I hope she never has a teenage son, period.

    • Elizabeth says:

      B37 was not on Piers Morgan but lemme go check.

  4. You all have thoughtful comments says:


    I want to thank you so much for your two-sentence to a comment I wrote in the early hours of Sunday morning after Saturday nights verdict. Your renewed my spirit and filled my sails again with purpose.

    I had been feeling beached and out of the waters of communing.
    I felt like a tearful, blob with the scorching sun bearing down upon me, wondering if I could reenter the cool, waters again and continue commenting with my fellow dolphin friends here.

    Your comment to me, telling how you were feeling because of my interaction with you and others was like you lifting me up and sliding me back into the ocean.

    For that, I love you and am very grateful. I am tearful as I write this.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      corrections: two sentence REPLY to a comment I wrote……..

      You renewed (not Your renewed)

  5. Sleuth says:

    ~ bettykath

    Hi five! Good for you.

  6. bettykath says:

    Jonathan Turley is showing his own bigotry, again. excerpt from his latest post.

    One of the most damaging moments for the prosecution in the trial of George Zimmerman trial was the inexplicable decision to lead with Rachel Jeantel, a friend of Trayvon Martin’s. Jeantel proceeded to admit to previously lying and then gave conflicted and at points unintelligible testimony. Her statement that Martin called Zimmerman a “cracker” further helped the defense in balancing the derogatory statements of Zimmerman. After the verdict, Jeantel has made statements that seem unhinged and again raise the question on why the prosecutors would place her so prominently in their case and chief. The latest controversy is a new allegation from Jeantel that she warned Trayvon that Zimmerman might be a gay rapist. She is not the only person associated with the trial who seems to be courting the press in the case with disastrous results.

    another quote in the context of before the trial in reference to B37’s lack of awareness of the seriousness of the trial:

    “Was it the rioting in various cities ” What rioting?

    I’ve called him out for his white privilege bias and left his blog.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Rachel Jeantel explained the terms “cracka” and “nigga” for Piers Morgan last night. These are different from cracker and nigger and don’t have the same racial connotations.

      • bettykath says:

        Exactly and Turley doesn’t get it. He hears “cracker” and “n….r” and doesn’t hear her explanation that thousands of teens understand.

        • Malisha says:

          Turley hears what he wants to hear and he sees what he wants to see. His friend Dershowitz is even worse at this point in time, and wanted Corey disbarred and prosecuted as a criminal for the one thing she ever did in office that was NOT totally WRONG. Dershowitz and Turley and Jeralyn (yes, two last names and a first, yes yes) should all haul ass down to Sanford and take Fogen out to dinner; they, too, are his peers.

    • Malisha says:

      BettyKath, I left his blog as soon as I saw the headline for acquittal of Fogen. What I realized was that from the very first article he posted about the case, he supported Fogen’s right to kill him one Black kid. I have a friend who is a friend of Turley’s and I asked him how on earth Turley (who is very intelligent) could have come up with (a) that idiotic attitude about the murderer; and (b) his prior eight-year quest for constitutional protection for a baby-rapist who was personally protected by an entire COUNTY of corrupt officials. My friend thought that Turley liked to be on the weird side of things.

      After his allowing “Dog” to post racist comments all over and his knowingly wrongful posts about “serious injuries” on Fogen and Fogen’s “passing lie detector tests,” I was ready to not just throw up my hands at his blog, but to frankly THROW UP on his blog!

      I left his blog as disgusted as many of the people who previously left Huff Po. There’s no excuse for supporting a racist child murderer. But think of it: Turley is from Fairfax USA, and he is at home in that environment. [GAG GAG GAG]

      • bettykath says:

        I heard you. I believed you but I was getting good stuff from some of the other posters. It was a trade off for me. He crossed my line in the sand when he belittled Rachel for the 2nd time. I had hoped that my comments would have made a difference. He really needs to take a good long look in his mirror. He’s far to comfortable in own white privileged world.

        nick had good words for me after my first declaration of leaving.
        sm had good words when I finally left that I saw when I went back to leave the letter to Trayvon suggesting that he will know what it’s like to live as a Black man.

        • Malisha says:

          I left and never went back and I don’t read it. What do I care what any of them thinks of ME? If they’re still with Turley after he has behaved so shamelessly (and shamefully) with his high hat and his scorn for people he believes are inferior to his exalted self, let them choose their crowd and I’m not in it.

          What was most telling to me of all the comments I ever read on Turley was Dog’s comment that he lived in a gated community in Florida, that PUNKS came in looking to steal things from him and his canine pack, and that he would “bite first and ask questions later.” See, he was just confirming what I said about the supporters of Fogen: THEY WISH THEY COULD KILL THEM A N****R SOME DAY.

    • Marsha says:

      Well here we go. Is Turley getting his talking points from Limbaugh? Rachel was concerned that Zimmerman might be a rapist after Trayvon. That doesn’t translate to gay rapist. That means a pedophile rapist, the type of person we warn our children about.

  7. Woow! says:

    Those other jurors will never come out of hiding or say a word after B37’s interview. B37 has made them all look stupid for changing their minds and not reviewing and evidence, and considering evidence not present at the trial.

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      Professor, please give me the opportunity to speak concerning this post.

      I was not the original poster of the photograph. How I got accused of being the perpetrator is unfair. Clearly someone asked about the photograph and one of your bloggers explain it was “yanked.” Your blogger wanted to see it and it was copied for the person to view. I discovered it was the recruiter after going to her website comparing the picture. So the person whom originally published it should be admonished not I. I am not an expert in computers and never heard of “doxxing” or “doxing.”

      Something else that brought concern about this your blog is that you can not freely give your opinion without being attacked by arrogant poster, who are seeking to get close to you. I notice this last year briefly and a new group have shown up doing the same thing.

      After briefly mentioning that “Obama is a CEO” your bloggers made personal attacks at me for my opinion. Obama can not legally get involved with the Trayvon Martin case, it takes Eric Holder. After mentioning a horrible experience with bigots in Sanford, they accused me of lying. I wasn’t lying, it was mentioned in detail back in April of 2012. Did anyone admonish them for attacking me for expressing my opinion? No.

      When everyone was upset over the verdict your bloggers began posting that Trayvon Martin’s body was being posted everywhere; many on this site were furious. I refuse to look. Did anyone respond asking them not share that information? No.

      Professor, I have law enforcement relatives that reside in Los Angeles. I confirmed through proper avenues if were happening and it was confirmed. In my opinion, if you burned the American flag (which stands for nothing for blacks) you would arrested. As my relative told me they aren’t going to do anything to them because of this Travyon Martin travesty. Somebody accused me of starting riots. MSNBC and CNN aired it briefly.

      People in this country are angry; many on this blog create a lot of lip service. I would love to know if any bloggers visit the jails on a bi-weekly basics, to help people in trouble after being falsely accused under the Florida laws.

      I was crucified when I continued to state “the fix was in” and “blacks cannot conduct themselves like white people” because of racism. It is heartbreaking, they are looked upon differently. They called me disparaging names, even though I was spot on since April 2012.

      I notice sometimes I would ask a simple question and it would not be answered. That was why I left at the beginning it appears to be a blog with special members. As stated before I never claimed to be scholar of anything any kind. I do not speak from a cloud; but from experience.

      One individual who does quite a bit of smooching made reference that, “I should stay away” while referencing to a door hitting me in the a–. What class? This person was never admonished. He/she did not agree with my opinion, and that was the end result.

      Professor, it appears you can not have your own opinion any longer. Not even five years ago a young man from a small community in Florida drove five hours to a Sanford black church to play piano for a service. This respectable black young man ended up on the wrong white side of the track. When he got out of his car to obtain gas for his vehicle, the whites told him “no you must go across the track to obtain your gas.” Then stated, “no black churches are on this side of the track.” When he crossed the track, the gas was $2 higher than it was in the white neighborhood. So Professor when I express my experiences, I am not lying or trying to obtain brownie points.

      I’m disappointed that this site chose to crucify someone whom is crucified by bloggers because of a personal opinion.

      Professor, if the post was a problem it should have been deleted in its entirety. If one person is going to admonished, then do it to everyone when they get out of line. I speak experience, not lip service. Disappointed and the attack on me for no apparent reason.

      Professor, look closer at who does this attacking because I believe some of these people are GZ supporters. They attack simple things that deserve no attacking; it is an opinion.

      Thank you….

      • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

        Correction – Professor, I have law enforcement relatives that reside in Los Angeles. I confirmed through proper avenues if riots were happening and it was confirmed. In my opinion, if you burned the American flag (which stands for nothing for blacks) you would be arrested. As my relative told me they aren’t going to do anything to them because of this Travyon Martin travesty. Somebody accused me of starting riots. MSNBC and CNN aired it briefly.

  8. Two sides to a story says:

    Dear Professor and Crane:

    While I love you both and I totally agree about doxing and violence toward jurors, I also think that it would have been a good lesson to just have left that picture up since it seems to have been a picture of the lit agent and not the juror. It would have been a good lesson to whomever posted it that you can’t rely on a quick examination of anything to know what something really is.

    Sixteen hours. The jury in this convoluted, highly publicized, highly emotional case took ONLY SIXTEEN HOURS TO DELIBERATE. FOR SHAME ON THEM. It took the rest of us weeks to pore through the discovery and later to watch all the testimony to be certain of what happened on the night of 12/26/2013.

    We watched white people lie. We watched professional people of Asian extraction whose first language is not English treated with disrespect and laughed at because they sound different from Anglo Americans. Juror B37 stated that she found Connelly credible, a man who lied through his teeth about recognizing Trayvon’s screams as Fogen’s. Almost everything that juror B37 found credible came from the mouths of people like herself, of her own culture. She had no motivation to move beyond her own cultural understanding of people, places, and events. She found Rachel strange, not credible, and couldn’t understand her, a girl who is painfully honest and quite understandable if you take the time to really listen.

    Her crying about both Trayvon and Fogen was for me disingenous, a scene from a bad novel laced with cliches. She glossed over the death of a teen and his side of the story (sometimes skillfully told and sometimes very clumsily told by prosecution lawyers and witnesses), and in the end, felt most deeply for the poor, poor shooter, giving the evidence only a cursory look over SIXTEEN HOURS.

    Cultural ignorance and neglect to dig deeper to understand let a man who should be legally culpable for an unnecessary death walk free. No, I do not respect the jury in this case. No, I will not parrot how great this country’s justice system is. All the necessary information to prove that Fogen lied about his profiling, pursuit, and the killing of an innocent black youth was available to those jurors. They needed to dig for it, but they chose instead to gloss over it, to marginalize people of other races and witnesses of more liberal political persuasions.

    Trayvon was killed once by Fogen, again by the defense team and the media, and a third time by the jury.

    I clicked on the link not long after it was posted but after you’d taken it down. Am I ashamed of my curiousity? No.

    I could have flown to Sanford had I had time and been able to afford it and have seen the faces of the jurors for myself. I don’t think seeing their faces is a big issue. I do respect their privacy to a point – there was a claim in the media that they wanted permanent anonymity, but if they choose to contact lit agents within 24 hours of a verdict, appear on national television within 48 hours of a verdict, then that claim to privacy has expired as far as I’m concerned.

    I’m no more ashamed of clicking on the link to see if it was really the face of the juror than to go to the Treehouse and read their doxing nonsense about “Dee Dee.” I’m interested in being informed and seeing what’s going on in all aspects of the case. While I’m not writing an academic paper as our friend Puck is, or blogging about the case as many of our other friends here have, or making videos as many others have, I do have a deep intellectual curiosity about what makes people tick and to see as much information as possible about the case.

    I feel no more ashamed about clicking on that link and reporting as I did that it was down. I feel no shame in looking at the crime scene photo of Trayvon’s body. While it may seem disrespectful to do so, I do think the world needs to see what Fogen did. While we see gory images in films and imagine these in novels all the time, it is deeply shocking and moving to see a real crime scene photo. Fogen went silent in his first recorded interview when Serino showed him that photo. Until then, it was clear that shooting someone through the heart with a hollow point bullet was just a hazy concept in his limited mind.

    When the young black man whose name I can’t recall at the moment was kidnapped and lynched in the early 1980s, civil rights groups who were working to bring his killers to justice and to remain vital working organizations, sent out crime scene photos of the young man hanging by his neck from a tree along with their donation requests. This was horrific to see, deeply troubling, but people need to see this, just like they need to see dead Trayvon, just like the world needed to see dead Emmett Till. It’s too easy to distance oneself from violent death even when one is supportive of working to end forever this horrific violence.

    Even though Trayvon’s killer may not have been directly racially motivated, he is still a product of a society and I will venture to say, a family who marginalizes blacks. Fogen’s father flaunted this attitude in his recent book. Fogen is still negligent in the way that he profiled Trayvon as a thug just because there had been some problems caused by other young blacks, and the world needs to see the final act created by the paranoid mind of a negligent gun owner and the harm he brought to an innocent teen.

    I post here under a handle because I didn’t want to trouble Crane and Fred with any extra trolls who probe into my life from publicly posting about the case. I post regularly around the web about this case under a publicly identifiable handle connected to my profession as well as using my own real name,at times and in many cases with a real photo of myself from my FB and Twitter. I have no reason to stop doing so unless the attacks become so virulent that I have no choice but to comment under a pseudonum. So please don’t think that by calling myself Two Sides here and not revealing as much as others about my location means I’m hiding and that I’m a hypocrite. My life and my motives are far more complicated – or perhaps simple – than that. I feel that I should be as open as possible and that I’ve lived life in an honorable way with a mind as to the highest and best for the greatest numbers of people, and though I’ve made some personal mistakes in my life, I have nothing to hide or to fear. Paradoxically I’m an introvert and far more reclusive than most people, and it would be more typical for someone of my psychological makeup to keep my identity hidden. Not to mention that I’ve always felt myself to be a world citizen, a citizen of Gaia or Terra, if you will, and you won’t hear me God Blessing America but instead, God Blessing the universe. May all beings be free from suffering.

    I don’t support doxing or threatening jurors in any way, shape, or form. But I also don’t support pretending to not have intellectual curiosity nor will I stop clicking on links or stop wanting to SEE history in the making. Thirty years from now this case will be as important as Emmett Till’s, though perhaps for far different reasons. It will probably move far beyond race because of the strong components of the misuse of force and the questions about who should be armed in our society.

    Juror B37 has taken the first steps toward outing herself, ironically. There is a certain paradox inherent in this as well as irony – can a juror step forward and release information and still remain any more anonymous than the judge, the court clerk, the attorneys, the witnesses, or the defendant himself?

    Like I said yesterday, I do think the media itself will out B37 and probably the other jurors (if they don’t do this themselves on some reality or news show or another). I think especially because they live in Florida and because of the crazy sunshine laws that allow ordinary people to dig through discovery in court cases, will this happen. I believe the media in Florida will have far less respect for B37’s privacy than in other states. (In fact, as I take the time to write this long message, perhaps it’s already happened.)

    I think only when states have complete gag orders on court cases as is done in many industrialized nations will there be total privacy for defendants, witnesses, and jurors. I would totally respect this and feel it would probably be best for our justice system overall if all discovery remained off of the public record and that the media would have limited means to report on cases.

    Trayvon wouldn’t have been killed the second time in the media and possibly not the third time by the jury had there been limited publicity.

    On the other hand, because justice failed in this case, and the dramas surrounding this case have galvanized a large segment of the nation and the world while publicly playing out on the airwaves and over the internet, the saga will continue and ultimately no one involved will have total privacy. I can only hope that the DOJ digs very, very deep and takes whatever time necessary to unearth relevant information about the workings of this case.

    Rachel Jeantel doesn’t get to hide. She came out of her private life snarling and I don’t blame her. She faced an unbelievable verbal assault by a welll-seasoned and hostile white attorney who could have asked tough questions without being as hostile and dismissive as he was. But Rachel was truthful about what mattered most, though ultimately disbelieved and dissed by people.who gave her probably less than two minutes thought let alone 16 pitiful hours of their time to understand, unlike Lauer ,and Connelly and some others who came into court with a political agenda, and were instantly taken as credible by white jurors because their cultural stances were familiar.

    Because of the parameters of this case, and how it was played out in Florida, I don’t think it’s necessarily the right thing for B37 or the other five women to demand their privacy for long. Again, I’m a nonviolent person and I don’t suggest that anyone visit violence on the jurors for their unpopular and even unwarranted decision, but neither do I feel that not revealing their faces makes sense when they did actually appear in a courtroom open to the public.

    This issue is a paradox that boggles my mind and makes it go ’round and ’round. On one hand I advocate for closed records for court cases until they’ve been tried, and on the other, since there was never any restriction upon dissemination of information in this case, it’s also difficult for me to advocate that the jurors have any permanent anonymity. I don’t recommend that anyone’s personal contact info be revealed – that would never be fair to anyone, but I don’t see why tjuror’s faces should be hidden since they were not hidden in court.

    They can stand and “face up” like everyone else in this case has had to do.

    B37 and fellow jurors – for shame for your lack of deep penetration into the evidence of this case and your inability to give this case the proper time. it deserved.

    For shame, Sanford Police Department and Seminole County Government for the lack of proper documentation in this case.

    And for you, Fogen, and the Fogen family, I have only two words: Credibility. Integrity.

    You know as well as I do that you have neither. You may have the good karma and good merit to have snatched your son once again from the consequences he deserves, and I respect karmic wisdom. But unless you, Fogen, use your freedom to support the highest and best for all concerned, you will not prosper and should not prosper.

    Stop the false narrative, embrace the truth, and make the transformative leap into a broader way of thinking and living.

    Before it’s too late.

    It’s almost too late . . .

    Peace to all!

  9. YQ says:

    Listen, reflect, heal….

  10. Sleuth says:

    “Let no man pull you so low as to hate him.” ~ Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

    Love is truly stronger than hate.

    • YQ says:

      Good one…

    • Tzar says:

      With all due respect, I have contempt for and hold in contempt the people responsible for the death, misappropriation of justice and character lynching of Trayvon Martin. I am very comfortable with that and I don’t feel it is the same as hatred as I do not fear their ideology; indeed I find it inferior.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      So true. Don’t hate the sinner, but it is okay to hate the sin.

      I find Fogen’s sin highly disturbing. And he’s piled sins onto that sin.

  11. Stormwatch says:

    2 of the jurors went into that jury room thinking he was guilty of manslaughter. One thought he was guilty of murder 2. I wish they would have stuck to their guns the way Zimmerman stuck to his.

    • Thrace says:

      A hung jury would have been preferable. Retrials don’t usually favor the defendant. Maybe the prosecution would have gotten their act together on the second go around.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Sadly, I don’t think they gave their examination enough time. 16 hours is simply not enough time to deliberate on a case as complex and explosive as this one.

  12. smokeegyrl says:

    The Defense Team fought for the Jury pool to be hidden with their names even after the Trial and all of us agreed. But for some reason I found that somewhat fishy. Because it always brought me back to Dothprotest toomuch statement of what they found on CG and most you know what I mean by those initials right? Last initial Greene. That is the person that summoned by O’M to help him with this case. She is the person that has what other Facebook’ers call the Hate Page such as myself. If you have read their posts such as I have and many will say the same is. Most of them live in Florida in the Seminole County area. They were waiting for this trial to begin and would do anything to get a jury pool notice even move there. This information was sent to the State and that is why those questions were asked “have you ever been on a social media site?”. But what they don’t know these same people used alias and different profile names. As I recall, there was a husband and wife team on there, one was an attorney and the other not. They had a phone number to call O’M right away if they needed his help. If the Federal Investigation was going to an investigation… I so wish they would get Facebook to turn over that page I believe there is evidence on that page.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      The call by the defense to hide the names of the jury pool is just another ploy to hide Fogen supporters who may have made it on the jury pool. And a dog whistle to these folks, as well as another point to attract donations.

      GZLC has not posted their financial statements about Fogen’s donations since April, as far as I know. Fogen could be rolling in dough for all we know. With all those interns, OM should have kept the financial records transparent, otherwise, it smells fishy.

      Could Fogen have bought a jury in Seminole County?

    • Jun says:

      Yeah it was a BS decision and the state should have fought it

      a trial is supposed to be public

      if the jury is allowed to do that, then so should witnesses during trial and they were not granted that right

      it’s a gong show

  13. HeresLookingatYOU says:

    I hope the federal government prosecutes Zimmerman and I hope the family sues him for wrongful death..
    the juries verdict was shameful.

  14. shyloh says:

    “An insincere and evil friend is more to be feared than a wild beast; a wild beast may wound your body, but an evil friend will wound your mind” Buddha

    Maybe one day, people will start thinking for themselves instead of following, just for the sake of following.

    Peace, love, and forgiveness!!!


    • Malisha says:

      I’m not sure about forgiveness.

      Remember Fogen at the bond hearing:

      If there was anything I could have done to not have to [kill Trayvon Martin] …

      and then contrast that with Hannity:

      “Was there anything you would do differently if you could?”

      NOPE. It was God’s Plan.

      • shyloh says:

        I believe George used God for his own purpose. Sort of saying God did this himself. I hate that. But it’s my opinion. For me (I) we must forgive in order to move forward. I understand you though. Whatever it takes for you to have some peace. HUGS 🙂

        • Malisha says:

          Thanks Shyloh. But I won’t have peace.

          No justice, NO PEACE.

        • Marsha says:

          My thinking about forgiveness in the case of murder was informed years ago when I read about the murder of college student Bonnie Garland. His ex-boyfriend Richard Herrin showed up at her home where she lived with her parents and was made welcome and given a room for the night. Still angry over the break up, Herrin sneaked into her room in the middle of the night and killed her with a claw hammer. Astonishingly, clergy and religious people rushed to forgive him before he truly repented and they minimized the murder. A defense fund was raised and he was surrounded by supporters during the trial. As a result, he acted like a victim being persecuted, as shown by the newsletter he wrote to supporters. He was convicted of manslaughter and did seventeen years in prison. I do not think that this man benefited in the long run by all that forgiveness; although he got a lighter sentence, what about the state of the soul of someone who thinks the murder victim was at fault for breaking his heart? I see no reason to forgive people who are not remorseful. It’s not good for the victim and their loved ones, it is not good for society and it is not good for the sinner.

      • Thrace says:

        The not having any regrets or doing anything differently is what got me. I can look back at mistakes or misfortune in my life and certainly have regrets and wished I done xy or z to change a negative life event.

      • Deborah Moore says:

        I’ve heard that forgiveness benefits the forgiver.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I think it’s one thing to forgive the person as an abstract. We all have that inner divinity or the true nature of mind, which is compassion and wisdom. We all owe forgiveness toward one another’s higher self.

      It’s another thing entirely to entirely forgive or forget the error right off the bat. I don’t think we have to do that, and most especially when the person who commits a grievous error does not seek true forgiveness or transformation. It’s okay to display some indignation and even some censure.

      Fogen took one teeny weeny little baby step in the direction of displaying public remorse and sorrow, but he wasn’t particularly sincere about it. He feels worse for himself than for Trayvon, that much is clear by his demeanor.

      And his family also feels far worse for themselves than for the victim and the victim’s family. They blame a long list of people and events that were set in motion by their son’s gunshot and his subsequent prevarication about what he did. On a higher level – higher self to higher self – I can forgive this because ultimately we’re engaging in a reality that’s little more than a dream. But on the physical plane, irresponsible actions that lead to unnecessary death and suffering need some remembering and pushback.

  15. Woow! says:

    In reading a lot of blogs and comment sections on the verdict something struck me. A majority of the pro-Zimmerman posters refer to blacks as uneducated, thugs, or Tracy Martin as a baby daddy.

    It baffles me that so many whites think blacks are uneducated. Just because a person does not go to college does not mean they are not smart. I once herd an attorney say that over half his has clients have the business acumen of a Harvard business school graduate but just were not given the chance or had the opportunity to purse higher education. The system is stacked against young black men. They get accused, arrested, overcharged, and labeled for the simplest of things then they are systematically banned from qualifying for financial aid or college entrance for a mistake. For this reason most do what they have to do (in their mind) to survive. Don’t get me wrong some are down right low down and dirty just as some people are of other races. It just blows my mind that some whites view blacks as dumb. Look at juror B37, need I say more.

    I’m going to share two personal experience with you that are 100% true to give some of you an idea of what it is like to be me.

    I live in a suburb in north Dallas. I had my home built in 2002. The day I did my walk through before closing my next door neighbor was also doing his final walk through. My my builder salesmen said Mr. Williams let me introduce you to your neighbor. He looked at my RE agent and extended his arm to shake his hand. My RE agent said oh, this is your neighbor I’m her RE agent. That man withdrew his arm and said hello and walked off. I have been living next door to him for 11 years and that man has never said hello. Make it a point to ask hello/good morning/good evening whenever I see him.

    When my kids were in school I arranged with my employer to come in a little late on rainy days so that I could drive them to school. Here if you live within 2 miles, there is no bus the kids walk to school. My oldest was in high school so he walked a long block to catch the bus. One rainy morning I drove him to the bus stop and was going to sit there until the bus came so that he did not have to stand in the rain. There were a few kids out there so I offered them a dry place to take cover also. Once kid yelled at one of the girls and said “don’t you get in that car” in a really mean nasty tone and proceeded to call the police. A cop drove up at the same time as the bus and when he found out that I was a concerned parent giving kids shelter from the rain he was pissed for having to take the call.

    In neighborhood the home prices started at $150,000 and went to $240,000 for a new build. These homes were considered a step up from a first time homeowner (whatever that should mean). TX neighborhoods have track builders where there are maybe 5 or 6 models with multiple elevations to make them look different. During a conversation with a neighbor she asked me how could I afford to live there when both she and her husband work and barely make it. I replied that it was none of her business but then decided to tell her that I don’t drive a $40k SUV, Lexus, BMW, or Benz, I was not stupid enough to finance a house that I could not afford along with furniture or 30k worth of shutters included in the 30 yr mortgage to keep up appearances and then not be able to buy food.

    Some of these people buy houses they cannot furnish but the housing crash was caused by black people. REALLY There are only three original owners on my street, me and two older retired couples. Everyone else were foreclosed on or sold b/c they could not afford to make payments.

    I was in Thom Thumb one day when I first moved to TX. I saw all these ladies swiping a white card. I ignorantly asked the cashier what kind of discount card was that and how could I get one to save. He looked at me and started ringing up the lady in front of me groceries really fast after she turned around and gave me an uppity look. When she left he whispered that it was a foods stamp card. I was floored. Anyone that live in a neighbor hood in that area driving a Lexus SUV did not need to have food stamps. That happens all over the suburbs and this is how they do it. The house and cars are in the husband name as well as the bank account. The wife goes and apply for food stamps and medicaid claiming no income and she gets it. And they say blacks game the system. PLEASE

    My final story – my son graduated high school with a 3.6, 27 ACT score and did not qualify for a scholarship. UH told him that the school did not send his transcript showing his rank timely. We drove to Houston twice and dropped off that paper work. He also applied for department scholarships and received nada. He has written so many essays to get nothing. We have given up. How do you tell your kids to work hard get good grades to earn scholarships just to have them heart broken?

    Just because you are black and middle class means nothing to some.

    • Woow! says:

      Texas at one time was trying to remove critical thinking from the curriculum. God help us all.

      • Malisha says:

        They must not be teaching “critical thinking” in Florida if six women came up with “it was not murder and not manslaughter but it was poor judgment and he learned his lesson.” HE learned HIS lesson? I’d say since he was the survivor, he DIDN’T learn his lesson.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Texas did actually alter there textbooks to reflect a rightwing view of history, but these at the present time are only infecting Texas.

        Thanks for sharing, Woow!

        I come from a white working class family. My mothers generation and my grandparents’ and great grandparents’ generation had either a high school education or far less than a high school education, which was quite common in rural areas at the time.

        I never even knew my elders had so little education until I was well into adulthood because these folks were intelligent despite their lack of book learning. They became adults in America’s manufacturing heyday and made more money in factory jobs than people with more education made in professional careers in that day (unlike today, as professionals make more money now). So they had nice homes, clothing, cars, etc. the latest in technology, etc. They had lively minds, mostly, and though sometimes were not as liberal as they could have been with more education, they were just as respectable as people with greater education. My mom was the first in her family to go to college – she was a college freshman when I was a freshman in high school. As you say, the same is true in many black families. Lack of formal education doesn’t equal lack of intelligence.

    • anita says:

      Your story is a real eye-opener. So many of my own race are disgraceful, hypocrites.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      My son applied for all kinds of scholarships and grants too. Nada.
      He’s got blond hair and blue eyes. Just sayin’.

  16. silk says:

    hay every 1. i was healing over this so im a little late on this . but i have a question?-is there enough evidence for a hate crime? i mean in other words , will the feds actually move in on this . my next question is , why didnt they enter the defendants texts ?

    • Malisha says:

      I’ll bet there was overWHELMING evidence for hate crime. FDLE did a mammoth job to hide it all.

    • Jun says:

      There’s evidence that Trayvon’s civil rights were violated and even if the feds do prosecute him, Fogen can appeal and walk free again in like a year or two

      They will move in and perhaps even the IRS will, as they have done in the past, but in a country where a teenage Japanese boy can be shot to death and the owner claimed to be scared walks free, a duo of men can beat a Chinese dude to death for “stealing all their jobs” and walk free, there was video evidence that a group of men lynched Rodney King but nothing was done and everyone walked free…

      I dont know why they did not enter in the Fogen phone records but at the same time the case the state put on and the way the SPD works was not like anything I have seen before observing trials

      I have seen Corey convince a jury that a man killed his wife and that the man’s bullet wounds were a product of the man shooting himself with a gun to hide the crime and try to blame it on a “shadowy suspect”

      So the state case to me did not make much sense

    • Jun says:

      There is enough to prosecute Fogen by the IRS and the Feds but honestly, he could just as easily appeal and use the exact same tricks and walk away again as has happened in the past

      The state and the SPD did not really put on a case like I would expect in a trial

      We are talking about Corey, who once convinced people to convict a man and tell them that the man who killed his wife, shot himself to try to hide the crime and blame it on an unknwon shadowy suspect

      All in all, another gong show

      • Two sides to a story says:

        At the very least, Fogen’s been on house arrest for 16 months and could possibly be again. That counts as consequences. I’m open minded as to what constitutes a prison sentence. I don’t think all criminal acts or acts of negligence require putting people behind bars in institutions. There are plenty of people there who don’t deserve to be and many others who could live on house arrest and have their lives closely monitored instead.

  17. Carmen says:

    GZ and his family should move to Peru for s couple of years …

  18. Judy A Vallejos says:

    LOL what a foolish thing this guy on HLN just said…

    zimmerass might be able to find a small town out west somewhere to live out the rest of his life….

    come on zimmy babey I have a small town for you ……

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I’m sure Fogen has plenty of supporters wiling to shelter him. He can work his butt off out on a ranch in the Northern plains somewhere and contemplate buffalo and cattle and coyotes who are up to no good.

  19. Jun says:

    I bet you all the jurors have been doxed already

  20. sadlyyes says:

    why cant a mistrial be granted? why was there only 6 jurors?this rogue juror would have more trouble convincing 12 people imo

    • Beverly says:

      The Fla law is that 12 member juries are only for death penalty cases, if I understand correctly. That was an explanation earlier.

      • ks says:

        Yes and you can’t have a mistrial for an acquittal. Double jeopardy attaches for state charges but, not for federal ones.

  21. Carmen says:

    Professor I have a question? I thought in a FL wrongful death suit TM’s parents could only sue for what TM, would be worth to them monetarily, as a a 17 year boy.

    • Judy A Vallejos says:

      I could not even begin to come up with a dollar amount for my children’s worth to me

      that sounds crazy

      how would that be figured out?

      • gwynne says:

        Bizarre as it sounds, there are people who do this sort of work.
        More to the point, I think the real reason for a wrongful death suit would be to force fogen to testify under oath.

      • Carmen says:

        They figure out how much he would have made in income, like they did for Ron Goldman in the OJ case.

        • Carmen says:

          Calculating Future Earnings Judges and insurance companies have some tried-and-true techniques for calculating the projected future earnings of a wrongful death victim. The factors involved in this calculation include:

          1. The age of the person at the time of death
          2. The victim’s level of education
          3. What kind of job the person had prior to the death
          4.How much the victim earned on a yearly basis
          5.How much the person would have been likely to earn in the future


    • FactsFirst says:


    • Malisha says:

      That’s not true. I saw a wrongful death suit where the plaintiffs sued for the fear and terror that the dead person for the 90 seconds before he died. Besides, this is a “life interest” case in addition to a wrongful death case.

  22. Woow! says:

    Marina says:
    July 14, 2013 at 6:15 pm
    Is it true GZ Defense Fund collected $13 million? Do you know if they covered their legal fees and security costs?

    did you see the number 13M

    • aussie says:

      Where is this figure from?????

      • Woow! says:

        It was a question one of nut cracker followers asked nutcracker if the figure was correct. Apparently according to a few of his posters, MOM is holding the money for CAC. Nutcracker would not confirm the amount just that any money is held by MOM and more money could be donated to him to keep the site going and CAC parents and family to rebuild their lives.

        These people have profited from the death of a child. Shameful

  23. Woow! says:

    I just read this on you know where:

    sangell says:
    July 14, 2013 at 3:52 pm
    I believe I heard MOM say they would seek an immunity hearing soon to head off any civil action against George and his family.

    Can they do that?

    • aussie says:

      NO they can’t. SYG immunity is a pre-trial hearing. And he waived his right to it and then they held a trial. Too late.

      If they DO have one, at the correct time, and they win it, it makes them immune to civil liability as well., But it’s too late for them. >:)

  24. Woow! says:

    That nut case sundance has his followers thinking he is in danger for the evidence he uncovered on TM. WTF

    • Malisha says:

      That’s just a bullshit excuse for the next person one of THEM will kill. They’re preparing ahead of time to say how terrified they were when confronted by some dangerous Black person who was inflamed with hatred for them because of the Fogen case.

      I am sure the Trayvon Martin murder will have progeny.

    • Thrace says:

      Did you see his claim about his car catching on fire while doing his Miami investigations? He’s trying to insinuate that someone torched it. If it had happened at all, it was probably some sort of malfunction, not any criminal activity. He’s a loon.

  25. elle says:

    Good morning, everyone. I am so profoundly sad. My loved ones are tag teaming me to keep me busy and occupied. I did not know, but my husband has planned several more trips this summer. Apparently, the last days of the trial, he was concerned fogen would walk and I would be heartbroken. I am a very lucky lady, to have all my friends and family trying to cheer me up. I have not been able to read the last couple of days but will try to catch up when I can. Keep me posted as to what I can do to best help. I have been trying to figure out what I am supposed to take from this, and I can only think it is a call to action of some kind. If there are marches where I will be the next few days, I will participate. But, I feel there will be very important things to be done, and I do not want to miss them.

    • aussie says:

      Elle, don’t read the last few days you missed. It is full of shock and bitterness and tears from everyone. Don’t read it, it will just make you sadder.

      Start from here as everyone tries to look forward, to find the next step.

  26. aussie says:

    I don’t get this “prosecution has to prove it’s not self-defence” bit at all.

    Say a body is found, shot to death. Nobody saw or heard anything. By good detective work they find out who did it, but he doesn’t talk.

    So how do they EVER prove ANY murders?

    • fauxmccoy says:

      @aussie — it is rather akin to proving a negative, isn’t it?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Not easy to prove a murder or even manslaughter when people can hide behind self-defense. We need self-defense laws that prohibit using excessive force.

  27. I think serious consideration should be given to prosecuting B-37 for perjury for her responses to questions asked during voir dire.

    • YQ says:

      I agree. Something has to be done about that. I hope something will.

    • Woow! says:

      In your long career have you ever known the feds to go back and interview jurors to see if there was any type of tampering/violation to make their case. Do you think that could happen in this case?

      • There have been prosecutions for jury tampering by outsiders attempting to influence jurors to vote a certain way, but I think the problem in this case is stealth jurors influenced by O’Mara’s year-long campaign to acquit his client in the court of public opinion.

        I believe B-37, and possibly two others, lied their way onto that jury determined to vote NG, regardless of the evidence. If I’m right, they should be prosecuted for perjury.

        I hope the feds prosecute GZ for a hate crime.

        • FactsFirst says:

          I hear juror B-37’s husband has ties to the defense attorney’s O’hahaPest.. If that’s true is that not some kinda violation?

        • Woow! says:

          Me too professor and I blame JN for not putting a gag order in place. She allowed MOM to try this case in the media.

        • MDH says:

          That would be ironic justice. They go to jail or pay fines for lies that set GZ free 🙂

        • ks says:

          Yes and what was key to me in B37’s interview last night, among other things, was that she stated that she considered Serino’s statement despite JN instructing the jury to strike it. That’s a clear indication that she was determined to get to a GZ favorable outcome.

    • Judy A Vallejos says:

      and would that lead to a mis trial? what constitutes a mis trial? and if mis trial is declared does zimmerass go back to court?

      I bet he has left the country already…..

    • KimmyK says:

      Perhaps someone could start a petition on that?
      Link the interview and/or proof of disregarding jury instructions?

    • Kimmi says:

      Perhaps someone could start a petition on that?
      Link the interview and/or proof of disregarding jury instructions?

      Professor, could you please delete my other post? TIA

    • roderick2012 says:

      LOL. Why would the State who threw the case want to re-open the can of worms?

      Besides Obama is too scared to file civil rights or hate crime charges against her.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Definitely. I think she feels immune to consequences because her husband is an attorney.

  28. YQ says:

    I agree that non-violent protests are a great approach to the situation. I feel that there are non-violent approaches to this situation that are being exercised. With that being said, why were riot police already prepared and on standby IMMEDIATELY after the verdict was reached? That’s hardly the case when people protest the Keystone Pipeline, or Immigration Laws, etc. Why did Martin’s parents refuse to be there to see the verdict? The protests were non-violent. Remember, day one after the verdict. No violence. Look at the photos of whats going on in LA. Do those police really look as if they are there to protect those people who have the constitutional right to protest? I don’t think so. Now, I’m not condoning violence as a suitable solution to the problem. A suitable to solution to the problem would have been: Zimmerman Found Guilty. The reality is, every cause has an effect. Riots didn’t wake McDuffie or Lewis from the dead, but if history is any indicator of what might happen next, hey, people aren’t perfect. They get angry, they get frustrated, they protest, they feel offended, and things fall apart. I’m not inciting anything, but history doesn’t lie. I don’t feel one way or the other about it.

    In the wake of juror B-37 telling the whole world the pitiful excuse of why she and two others came up with “not guilty”, that just makes matters worse because they just told us that they hardly took the time to review the evidence and spent 16 hours trying to get the 3 to compromise with “not guilty” so that the jury wouldn’t be hung. None of it is fair at all on any level and this is what happens. If they can find a way to seat a fair-minded and strongly opinionated jury, then maybe those who are dumb enough to throw rocks and burn things down in the face of this outrageous verdict would come to grips and at least feel as though their voice was being heard at least somewhat. Bottom line is that Trayvon was denied his right to self-defense, and because of that, everyone out there taking the time to exercise their freedom of speech (and rightfully so) are once again being held accountable for upholding their constitutional rights. Look at the tea party protests, did you see riot police at the ready when they were out there doing virtually the same thing? So what is it about this verdict that has everyone bracing for riots even though no one intends to riot? Is it because of the AAs??? I think so. The powers that be (whoever they are) needs to be held accountable also and until that happens… oh well. Should have gotten it right the first time around

    • Jun says:

      peaceful protests are not going to do much

      I do not have all the answers but the only good I see is that there are large numbers of support

      other than that, nothing has changed

      All any person needs to do to walk free is provide some reasonable doubt that they were in fear of imminent death coming to them hence the use of deadly force, that’s it

      You ring bells that you can’t unring

      There is the stealth jurors

      This is high profile case number 2 in Florida ending up like this, so if you are a defendant, make your case high profile

      Robbie The Racist with the help of yall watching his media whore tour, helped in this fact

      Go for a media smear campaign

      For god’s sake, as a prosecutor, use all the evidence you have, connect it all together, provide a theory, and provide a cartoon of the event explaining it backing it by evidence, because simply yelling out liar liar does not work in Florida

      The state did not do this

      There was zero debate on negligence and the totality of the whole picture

      The judge and jury were not won over and could have been argued better by the state for a more impartial jury

      There was no argument for the victim’s rights

      Baez is right about trials and courts in that it is simply a game that you navigate to win, there’s no real search for truth and justice, innocent go to prison and guilty walk free as long as you play to win

      All that will happen of this is Fogen will be bugged for the rest of his life, someone will prolly try to kill him and his brother, and that’s it

      As I type this, more violence will occur in America and millions of other victims are left hanging

      Michael Dunn, although I feel is guilty, can use the exact same formula and walk as well

      OJ Simpson used this formula, Robert Durst used this formula

      • YQ says:

        I mean, we also can’t blame the State for it, bc we can clearly see what the ultimate issue is. Any fair minded person would have held Fogen accountable as a parent should. When i was growing up, my parents disciplined me even if i misjudged or made a mistake. If i set in motions the events that caused a problem, i had to own up. Idk if I disagree or agree about the ineffectiveness of peaceful protests. I just understand that at some point, the powers that be have to work swiftly to find an appropriate solution. This isn’t just going to go away and believe me, I have seen first hand the ugliness of civil unrest, but I also understood and heard those silent screams.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        “Baez is right about trials and courts in that it is simply a game that you navigate to win, there’s no real search for truth and justice, innocent go to prison and guilty walk free as long as you play to win.”

        I think this adversarial system is a piece of shite. It angers me that people wave flags and call it the best in the world.

  29. Girlp says:

    Rachel Maddow explains why the Department of Justice was involved in helping keep the peace for 2012 protests over the death of Trayvon Martin and contrasts the “Fox News world” perspective with the “real world” facts that contradict the hysterical outrage on Fox News over accusations that the federal government was secretly organizing protests for Trayvon Martin.

  30. Woow! says:

    I just watched the AC360 interview of Juror B37 again this time with a calm head.

    This woman spewed every racially charged stereotype. I hope I did not misunderstand her to say the jury considered evidence that was not presented at trial. Those ladies ignored JN instructions.

    • Malisha says:

      Also she said that Rachel had no credibility but did not point out any particular thing Rachel testified that she personally disbelieved. None of it had been contradicted by any other evidence! No other witness who testified claimed to have seen the BEGINNING of the physical confrontation! How could Rachel lie? She didn’t follow events; she didn’t follow the trial itself although she testified.

      • ks says:

        Exactly! B37 didn’t state why she found RJ not to be credible other than her remarkably condesending nonsense about feeling sorry for her.

      • Sleuth says:

        ~ Malisha

        I agree, and I am so glad Miss Rachel Jeantel set the record straight for those who wrongly mis-judged her by stating she had some type of mental or learning disability.

        She stated she has an underbite which interferes with her speech, which requires surgery for which SHE has decided to forgo due to the year long recovery process. Shame on those who thought otherwise.

        Miss Jeantel presented herself well in court. Sure, she became frustrated with The Wiester, but who wouldn’t after being put on the witness stand under heavy questioning for more than 6 hours?

        When I consider the attire of Mrs. Manalo, Mrs. Osterman, Miss Jeantel was one of the best people who testified, and for that I say she also wins “The Best Dressed” award. She dressed with class.

        Miss Rachel Jeantel is forever my gurrrrrl!

    • lurker says:

      I believe she mentioned finding Serino credible, going on to note that it was significant that he believed Z was telling the truth. Were they not told to disregard that testimony?

      She also thought that Z’s Vietnam Vet friend was the ME.

  31. Girlp says:

    NAACP president calls for civil charges in Trayvon Martin death

    Benjamin Jealous, president and CEO of the NAACP, talks with Rachel Maddow about why he believes there are sufficient grounds for the Department of Justice to bring civil rights charges against George Zimmerman in the death of Trayvon Martin.


  32. Malisha says:

    @ Big Willie, calling Big Willie, Calling Big Willie:

    I went ahead, after hearing what happened to you, and I contacted Starbucks through their websites, and I told them to refer to the thread (two threads ago) where you described your experience. They responded to me this morning saying this:

    We are concerned in reading your email and would like the opportunity to speak with you in person. Please call our customer contact center at 877-309-3180 and have reference # 11885938 available when you call.

    Our contact center is open Monday-Friday 5am-8pm and Saturday 7am-4pm (PST).

    SO PLEASE CALL THEM because I don’t know how to put you in touch with them. All I did was say I was dismayed to read what a terrible experience YOU had in Starbucks. So give them a call.

    It is important for each of us to do whatever we can to oppose this atrocious herd-like attitude of helping racists get away with everything, including but not limited to murder. Everyone who lets us know it’s OK with them that Trayvon was killed OR that Fogen got away with it needs to hear from us, loud and clear and unequivocal, and I’m glad if somebody can get fired over bullying a Starbucks customer to promote racism. Even in a little way.

    Every sin makes the pile of sh*t a little higher.

  33. KateW says:

    J4TMinATL says:
    July 16, 2013 at 10:00 am

    Anderson says she will tell us tonight how they talked one juror in to staying after she stated she wanted to go home.

    Simply unconscionable. This unscrupulous individual really upsets me. She made up her mind before the trial and was ready to go home, that she didn’t find it necessary to do her due diligence. She didn’t care, she didn’t take the case seriously, and then she gets on national TV and we find out there is some possible book deal to profit from this dead child. She doesn’t need to write a book, it isn’t as if she can’t go back on television and brief people as to what happened.

  34. My Forehead Tho says:
  35. My Forehead Tho says:

  36. Woow! says:

    SYG is a legal hunting license giving racist men a get out of jail free card to kill blacks.

  37. Woow! says:

    Someone should start a petition on change.org or other site (not familiar with them all) asking musicians/actors/actresses to pledge avoid performing in Florida until they changer their SYG laws.

    A petition asking people to boycott professional sporting events, Universal studios and other places that generate huge revenue for FL.

    This would hurt FL’s pockets and maybe produce change for the greater good.

    People should petition for a thorough investigation of SPD to get to the bottom of the horrible non-investigation in TM’s death.

    Just as it took all of us to get an arrest and bring CAC to trial, it will take all of us (every nationality and race) to change the laws put is place by narrow minded individuals.

    Who will be the next victim to die and SPD fail to investigate and bring the killer to justice?

  38. KateW says:

    Ugh Dr DiMao! This man and all his foolishness. No doubt a recognized individual in his field but come on! Deviated septum popped back into place?? Funny the killer never mentioned anyone “popping” his nose into place. But somehow the doctor manages to give a diagnosis of something that isn’t there and add something that didn’t happen. I believe that was a photo anomaly of some sort because you can see upon his arrival to the police station there was no “deviation”.

    Second, he says the gunshot wound was 2-4″. So I got out my trusty ruler. 2-4″ is a good amount of distance from the skin to the muzzle of the gun as he claims. Then this suggest they were either standing or Trayvon sat up far enough for him to be 2-4″ away from the gun.

    His paid testimony projected what the defense wanted him to project because he never talks about the physical impossibility of this kid being able to see a holstered gun while straddling the killer and he doesnt explain why there was absolutely ZERO blood on Martin’s hands when he claims he was being smothered. I think he said something to the effect that his wounds probably didn’t bleed until later. His testimony was paid ridiculousness.

    • MDH says:

      That is BS.

      The wounds to the scalp and the punctuate wound to the tip of the nose bleed immediately and profusely. Just like a shaving knick.

      Hell, if I was debating him, I would gladly have the life threating wound inflicted upon me and let him press his hands on my nose and mouth.

      There will be a big pool of blood on the floor from the back of my head a smear on my face, and trails running down the side of my face toward me ear, not my chin.

      Oh, and then I would ask another obvious science question.

      How does rain wash away a pool of blood, blood on T’s hand, but stay on GZ’s head?

      One must remember that the Right Wing is anti-rational thought.

      IOW, they have the guru complex. Those experts that are part of “good” society tell the truth and those from “bad” (read as people of color) lie.

      As a result, the Stepford Wives on the jury can cherry pick the data to come to the right (conclusion) without ever having to engage in critical thinking.

  39. Sophia33 says:

    I think we should start a whitehouse.gov petition to ask for a presidential pardon for Marissa Alexander.

  40. Judy A Vallejos says:

    forgive me for being uninformed…

    I just saw on one of the news channels that the officers were found not guilty in the Rodney King trial. I knew that … but

    the federal trial found them guilty…that I did not know about and what happen to them? what was the level of accountability? did they go to jail?

    I remember the riots after the verdict…

  41. Woow! says:

    I wonder how JN feels about the verdict, B37 book, and that 3 jurors were possibly or allegedly persuaded to change their decision.

  42. J4TMinATL says:

    Anderson says she will tell us tonight how they talked one juror in to staying after she stated she wanted to go home.

    That’s why Malisha said don’t mention the deal yesterday, don’t talk about it because juror would shut it down. Now it’s possible we may never know. Maybe the one minority juror from Chicago B-29 will speak out, eventually; although I always thought she was too eager to sit on jury. 5 kids (19, 18, 15, 3, 3) and no problem being sequestered? Prosecution tried to have her removed for hardship and language barrier.

    B-37 Juror’s husband is a space attorney, used newspaper to line parrots cages, local to Sanford, lapsed CW permit, admitted she had no firearm training, husband’s permit still active, and watches Today show.

    E-6 has two children (11, 13) and said don’t walk around at night.

    B-51 was call center manager of 1,200 employees, has dog and a 20 year old cat. We thought she might be the fore person.

    Too bad alternate E-54 who would be # 7 didn’t make it. He was a white male.

    Also, one juror has a son who is an attorney.

  43. Sophia33 says:

    Tom Joyner just offered Rachel a FULL SCHOLARSHIP to any HBCU of her choosing.

    • J4TMinATL says:

      OMG, Spelman!! (I hope). That is so fuppin awesome.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      That is just wonderful news. Watching her last night being interviewed by Piers Morgan, I was struck by her intelligence and poise.
      Fly, Girl. Fly High.

      • smokeegyrl says:

        Good Morning All, I seen her on Piers Morgan and Rachel explain her speech impediment and she also explained what cracka meant. and Piers explained it a little more. Cracka means someone of authority as a cop, security person not a white person. Cracka was used back in slavery days as the ‘whip cracker’ to warn others. It is still part of the lingo to this day.

        She was more poised last night. She said Trayvon was a nice person and not a Thug. She said if she wasn’t a Christian she would let Don Westin (yup she called him Westin) what she thought). She said Trayvon was scared.

        Again, I couldn’t sleep last night. All I have are grandsons… This worries me. That these gun nuts are going to be out here with these SYG laws and they are going to use these laws as an excuse to shoot my grandsons down. They are black. I even have one grand child who is multi-racial (all races).

        • Ms.X says:

          I feel the same as you. Im scared for my 18 yo son., his friends & basically any Blk people. I realize it could happen to me as a Black female. I’m still going through the stages of grief.

        • FactsFirst says:

          @smokeegyrl chile I call my family a rainbow tribe because we got a little bit of everything in this family.. Literally.. But my sons are black and it’s scary to know that they have a target on them just because of the color of their skin.. Trayvon could have been my sons..

          Rachel and the cracka/nigga thing… She’s right, we don’t use those words in a racist way. But to piggy back offa her statements, I just want to clarify a few things.

          1. Cracka is used to describe a racist white person.. For example,
          slave owners, a racist cop/security gaurd, or fogen..
          2. nigga is a man, any man, friend or enemy.. For example,
          “my nigga Brian graduated from college.” = friend.. “This nigga shot up my house” = enemy..

          Nothing racist about the context in which we use those words..

          WE DO NOT USE the N-word or cracker in the black community and people who know anything about our culture or have any black friends/family/coworkers know this already. Which is why I say those jurors, especially B-37 were full of shit! They knew what Rachel Jentel meant when she said “creepy ass cracka”.. Trayvon was descibing the racist white man following him for no reason and the jurors didn’t like it because the truth hurt.. SMH..

    • fauxmccoy says:

      @sophia — great to hear! thanks for sharing.

    • Woow! says:

      Thank you Tom Joyner.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:


    • ay2z says:

      wonderful!! I hope they do not push for a fall entry this year, or make this conditional. And allow her support for prep courses, so she can be ready, emotionally, physically for this challenge.

      Don’t set her up for failure, she needs to heal first, and get a foundation beneath her academically, and she needs to do it to her own comfort level so she is set up to succeed.

    • concernedczen says:

      Woo Hoo!!!

  44. Notice what Dr. diMaio says about the bullet holes not lining up.

  45. We all need to calm down. White, black or brown we are family and we should not be attacking each other.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      Is this when and where we are reminded of the kindergarten version of The Golden Rule?
      Treat friends like you want to be treated.
      I find it’s a fairly easy thing to do.

    • Sophia33 says:

      I thought that this case was going to be like so many others of this nature where the black community would be an island unto itself. I thought that no one would, with the exception of the few liberal friends that we always have, would understand or try to understand how this makes us feel. I thought this blog contained our few liberal supporters.

      But that was not the case. Sunday, to be able to SEE (not just read in cyberspace) people of all colors and nationalities and ethnicities marching was amazing. That is what uplifted my spirits and continues to uplift my spirits. There are others who saw this as wrong. So we weren’t alone in how we felt.

      • Deborah Moore says:

        Morining, Sophia.
        Your comment reminded me of this song.

        • Sophia33 says:

          I wish John Lennon were here now. Another life cut too short by gun violence.

          • Deborah Moore says:

            Hmmmm. Looking at your words, “Gun Violence”, I thought, We have all kinds of violence, but Guns only carry violence. We never talk about Gun Peace do we?

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            How about changing that war poster from the sixties from “war” to “guns”?–

            Guns are not healthy for children and other living beings<blockquote

          • Two sides to a story says:

            How about changing that war poster from the sixties from “war” to “guns”?–

            Guns are not healthy for children and other living beings


      • amsterdam1234 says:

        When I feel really bad, I conjure up the image of GZ in the witness box, while being questioned by Benjamin Crump.
        We’ll get to see that.

      • believeinkarma says:

        That is why I am hoping this time is different. When you look at the protesters it is mainly a mix of races not just one. Our children & grandchildren see people not races.

  46. Sleuth says:

    ~ Professor,
    I agree with 100% of what you said. In addition, the uncivilized discourse and pejoratives such as belittling and insulting others, name calling, and snippy remarks, etc. used by a few of the long time commenters to this blog are also unwarranted and should not be tolerated. Such behavior actually diminishes the person making such comments. I’d like to believe we are better than that. Thank you for getting things back on track.

    • dianetrotter says:

      Yep! Sleuth it was reminiscent of HuffPost.

      • Sleuth says:

        Totally agree. I left there, went over to NLME and thoroughly enjoyed my time there, just as much as I have here until recently.

        • Sophia33 says:

          What is NLME?

          Also, I had to take a break from HP.

          • aussie says:

            NLME is the owner of bcclist.com where a lot of us started the evidence investigations. He disappeared for a while and we all had to move as he wasn’t putting up new threads. I only just now went back to look,. didn’t even know he was back in action again.

          • Sleuth says:

            ~ Sophia33

            NLME is a wonderful website. A very mature group of folks. Time there was actually spent dissecting this case. Full of intellectual discussion, nobody actually worried about any trolls, even if they did have an opposing point of view. They were welcomed unless the owner of the website decided they weren’t. During my time there it didn’t seem to present a major problem. Doxing was a definite “no-no”.

      • gwynne says:

        I heard nothing about this despicable attack in the news. The video is truly shocking to watch.

      • Sophia33 says:

        Isn’t it ironic that the people who swore that there would be riots are the ones that been spewing and doing the most despicable, insensitive and hateful things.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


        Praying for Lester Chambers.

        He was singing “People Get Ready” , that he dedicated to Trayvon, when he was attacked by that woman.

        >People get ready, there’s a train comin’
        You don’t need no baggage, you just get on board.
        All you need is faith to hear the diesels hummin’
        You don’t need no ticket you just thank the lord.

        People get ready, there’s a train to Jordan,
        Picking up passengers coast to coast.
        Faith is the key, open the doors and board them.
        There’s hope for all among those loved the most.

        Here is Al Green singing it:

      • aussie says:

        Strange., She walked from the back (bottom right to us) looks like BEFORE he mentioned Treyvon.

        • crazy1946 says:

          I noticed that also, it was a planned event! This needs to be investigated and quickly before it gets to be the norm….. There is no room in this nation for hate like this to exist….

      • Yorazigo says:

        Where did this happen, does anyone know?

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Lester Chambers, 73 years old! That female attacked an old man with a grey beard, and she expects the USA to stand by her behavior. SMH, has the whole country gone nuts?

      • Ms.X says:

        Not only that, but she barely got in trouble at all. This is what is meant by white privilege. The laws barely apply to one group & apply double or triple to another.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      “The police didn’t even book her, they gave her a misdemeanor offense and they let her go.”

      For physical battery on an old man in front of hundreds and on film, they let her go. The police chose not to enforce the law. At this point, we all know why.

    • LiveByTheGulf says:

      The woman’s words were similar to what was said before Trayvon was shot. “MF you’re going to die tonight.” Fogen attributed it to Trayvon.

  47. Woow! says:

    The travesty of this whole situation is people is so blind with hatred toward another race and probably do not even know why.

  48. LiveByTheGulf says:

    Here is a quote from an online book I’m reading:
    “We live in a blame culture—we want to know whose fault it is and
    how they’re going to pay. In our personal, social, and political worlds,
    we do a lot of screaming and finger-pointing, but we rarely hold people accountable. How could we? We’re so exhausted from ranting and raving that we don’t have the energy to develop meaningful consequences and enforce them. From Washington, DC, and Wall Street to our own schools and homes, I think this rage-blame-too-tired-and-busy-to-followthrough mind-set is why we’re so heavy on self-righteous anger and so low on compassion.”
    From: The Gifts of Imperfection

  49. Woow! says:

    Frederick Leatherman says:
    July 16, 2013 at 8:01 am
    The Double Jeopardy Clause only precludes the State of Florida from retrying GZ. It does not preclude the federal government from prosecuting him. The federal government is a different sovereign.

    Mr. Leatherman if the DOJ decides the prosecute Zimmerman, can they prosecute him for murder and civil rights violation?

    • fauxmccoy says:

      it would be under the Matthew Shepherd/James Byrd Hate Crime Prevention Act. i am uncertain if enough evidence exists for a federal case, but i sure as hell support a thorough investigation.


      • Deborah Moore says:

        I had only known that bill as the Mathew Shepherd Hate Crime Act until Rachel Maddow spelled it out on her show. I’m glad for that specificity.

      • crazy1946 says:

        Professor while the law seems to apply only to public property, can the common property between the buildings be considered public property per the law (because of common usage of all residents and?) ? While the community is private, it is serviced by public officials (law enforcement) that part should allow the streets to be considered public property, correct? Now if the “event” started on public property and then traveled onto private property how would that affect the standing of the DOJ and the laws on the books to go after the defendant?

  50. J4TMinATL says:

    Morning. Anderson Cooper said this morning that 20 minutes of unaired footage can be seen tonight on his show.

    I wholeheartedly believe once JN sent back her response which I’ve read, the others persuaded last juror to a NG. JN should have responded with what manslaughter means or reference a page in the 27 pages of instructions.

    • concernedczen says:

      Why would Judge Nelson do that when Judge Nelson is directly responsible (and probably intentionally so) for the acquittal in the first place?

      The case was lost when Judge Nelson disallowed the state from using it’s peremptory challenges to get rid of potential stealth jurors.

      • anita says:

        ~concerned You’re absolutely right. The first time I posted here was because of this woman being placed on the jury. When she called the protests ‘riots’ I just knew she was bad news. This was so wrong, I wish we knew why it happened. I’ll clean up my language, no problem.

      • Kimmi says:

        Why would she do that anyway? Was the “fix” IN?
        Add to that:
        Not striking Donnelly’s testimony after he obviously violated the witness sequestration rule.
        Omitted/deleted “an aggressor cannot claim self defense” clause in the jury instructions.
        I really thought she was going to be a fair and impartial judge, but looking back, idk…

      • Kimmi says:

        Not allowing the state voice “experts” to testify.
        Ok, maybe not the one promoting his voice recognition software, but BOTH???

  51. Boyd says:

    Let’s say I’m seen kicking the crap out of the guy who is chasing me with a gun.

    Me: Why am I the guilty one?
    Them: wonk wonk wonk wonk.
    Me: oh I see he’s allowed to do that.

  52. Judy A Vallejos says:

    good morning all….

    what does a mistrial mean?

    does that mean after this verdict has been handed down that zimmerass could be back in court and another trial?

    is he still exempt from prosecution ?

    and if I understand as every thing stands now he can never be held to any other charges in regard to what he has done?

    • bettykath says:

      He can be prosecuted for violating Trayvon’s civil rights in a federal trial. That’s why there are petitions and other pressures on the DoJ to pursue it.

      The cops that beat Rodney King were eventually tried and convicted of violating his civil rights when LA didn’t do the job on assault.

    • Sophia33 says:

      Here is her statement:
      “I realize it was necessary for our jury to be sequestered in order to protest our verdict from unfair outside influence, but that isolation shielded me from the depth of pain that exists among the general public over every aspect of this case. The potential book was always intended to be a respectful observation of the trial from my and my husband’s perspectives solely and it was to be an observation that our ‘system’ of justice can get so complicated that it creates a conflict with our ‘spirit’ of justice. Now that I am returned to my family and to society in general, I have realized that the best direction for me to go is away from writing any sort of book and return instead to my life as it was before I was called to sit on this jury,” the statement read. – See more at: http://madamenoire.com/286446/juror-b-37-experiences-a-change-of-heart-pulls-out-of-book-deal-less-than-24-hours-after-announcement/#sthash.ssU0CGeZ.dpuf

      • Sophia33 says:

        How could this woman not know the “depth of the pain that exists among the general public over every aspect of this case”? She had all day Sunday after being out of sequestration. It was the top news story. There were protests all day. But also, what did she think before getting on the jury? She was in a high profile case. She knew that. What about the evidence, why did she not think this was painful? Sequestration in my opinion does not explain away this cluelessness.

        • concernedczen says:

          She only had that change of heart after the literary agent pulled the deal.

          The literary agent pulled the deal because someone on Twitter started a campaign to get the book deal rescinded.

          • Sophia33 says:

            Figures! I didn’t feel this would be something that she would have the decency to do on her own.

          • gwynne says:

            Losing her agent probably encouraged her decision.
            The verdict only came out Saturday night.
            Since then, she seems to have been a very busy little bee, shopping a book proposal..ugh. Sounds like (for now anyway) it’s off the table.

            I wouldn’t be surprised if she finds someone else, and decides to go ahead and publish. It’s distasteful, but if she and her husband want their 15 minutes of fame, go for it. It will only help to have them both on the record.

          • abbyj says:

            Great news. Thanks for the update about the literary agent. So much for a “change of heart.”

          • Ha! I’m convinced that Twitter is the 5th estate.

        • Thrace says:

          Her husband wasn’t sequestered, he certainly knew what public opinion was on the outside.

        • Girlp says:

          There are people on that jury that watch the O’Greedy show as he made his rounds their minds made up and 2 or 3 stealth jurors. She does not and did care about depth of any ones pain she disregarded the victim they did not look at the evidence.

        • Malisha says:

          She wasn’t clueless. Her husband and other counsel and a political speechwriter made up that paragraph for her dear little head. She knows exactly what the story is; George has “poor judgment” but after all, just killing one little Black kid shouldn’t be used against him.

          • anita says:

            ~Malisha That woman is not very smart. There is no way she wrote that paragraph. I think she’s a very cold, lying, racist. Her ‘favorite’ witness was Donnelly! She completely fell for his lies. We need not say another word about her, that says it all.

          • Ms.X says:

            She had an opinion before the trial even started. She seems to have been a stealth juror after all.

          • believeinkarma says:

            She felt Donnelly was the most credible witness and Serino’ s struck statement of fogen was telling the truth as very powerful.

      • dianetrotter says:

        “always intended?” How long is always? Her husband’s perspective? Hmmm! She, alone, decided to go away from the book. Alone or with her husband? Her husband realized they were going into murky waters.

    • Boyd says:

      “Those people” was all I needed to know.

    • Tzar says:

      sh is still going to publish
      she is just waiting for things to die down
      she lives in a bubble and expected her nonsense to be accepted on national tv

    • ay2z says:

      Thanks. Adding to this and the OS article today, curious quote from this juror on AC360 when she said

      Zimmerman would have reacted the exact same way if he had spotted a Spanish, Asian or white person, Juror B-37 said Monday night on “AC360.”

      Now is that a deja vous moment?

      Where did I hear that comment before? Yes, it was Robert Zimmerman Sr. in his voluntary visit to FDLE investigators, the recording can easily be found at Axiom Amnesia..

      This is a ‘hmmmm’ moment. This juror seems to have heard this idea before. She added the Spanish and ‘white’, but the Asian notion was right out of Sr Zim’s own mouth.

      OS article:
      “George Zimmerman: Inept state, dispassionate jury”
      By Hal Boedeker Staff writer 8:06 a.m. EDT, July 16, 2013)

      • ay2z says:

        Check this out, the AxiomAmnesia has highlighted his statement about Asians.


        • ay2z says:

          the audio clip is there.

          “George was cooking dinner for him and his wife.” Sr Z

          (another hmm moment, because SZ was supposed to be at a relative’s place that evening.)

          The Asian comment was a couple minutes or so into the recording.

          “If several Asians had broken in…. ”

          (If Trayvon had been living in one of the RTV homes with a front entrance facing where GZ’s vehicle was, and Trayvon went to the front door, what would he have done? Called that neighbor to say don’t answer your door, call 911 before pulling out his gun to stop a crime in action?

          Fogen was afraid for himself that night, his fear was not reasonable to push him to protect his wife and home from someone trying to get away, and not reasonable as he got out of his car to follow, to stay in ‘close proximity’ to tell the police where he was going.

          This was personal and unreasonable to take it to where he did.

          • Malisha says:

            Fogen was NOT EVEN AFRAID that night. He was hunting. He knew he was armed. I think he was hoping Trayvon WOULD approach his car and he could shoot him from THERE but “Shit, he’s running … he ran” so he had to get out and stalk him. But the minute he said, “Shit, he’s running,” you know that HE KNEW that Trayvon had NO GUN.

            Fogen was not scared at any point that night. Frustrated? Yes. He wanted obeisance and didn’t get it. Scared? Nope. Only “running out of time.”

          • Yorazigo says:

            I believe there was also an earlier tape of Shellie on call to police where she is heard telling GZ not to go out to follow person she called about. I think this bears directly on GZ’s getting out of his car to follow Trayvon.

      • Xena says:

        Yeah, and B37 believes that “Spanish” is a race when it is actually a language.

  53. Girlp says:

    Thanks Professor agree tottaly.

  54. Beverly says:

    My 2 cents: In MN there is an excellent local community newspaper that has an interesting, succinct comment on the case….saying, essentially, 3 spots where the State failed: Not having a clear theory of the case; Several theories offered but none beyond reasonable doubt; Appeals to emotion rather than analysis. While a summary, I think this is accurate. This all makes sense to me. I found following the events very difficult….here, there, what next. So these points help me understand why things seemed muddled. FWIW.

    • Boyd says:

      I disagree with that. The theory is clear as day, he jumped out the car with a gun and went after the kid.

      The problem was so much was made about what Good supposedly saw. Whatever he saw it fit the rules of self-defense for Martin being on TOP.

      • Malisha says:

        Good couldn’t change his initial “MMA all the way” testimony to “nothing happened could be anything” without injuring his own position so he had to keep Fogen on the bottom SOMEHOW. It’s not rocket science, When the police were totally in charge and everyone expected the cover-up to be perfect, Good lied outright and shamelessly, with a flair, with drama, with verve. When there was an oops and Shellie went down for perjury, Good had to clean up his act but he couldn’t totally forsake Fogen because there would be negative consequences. So enter the “rational thinking” solution.

        Good is guilty; Jeremy is guilty; Lauer is guilty; the thing is obvious and the police position of bullying people who didn’t VOLUNTARILY jump on Fogen’s bandwagon sealed it up. I’m fairly certain MORE THAN ONE PERSON had firm and unshakeable eye-witness knowledge that Fogen murdered Trayvon Martin.

      • Beverly says:

        The theory may have been clear, but still not clearly conveyed. That was the point of the piece….not well-developed, as I understood the piece.

    • Wanna says:

      I think the state failed by design. I have no doubt in my mind that AC directed the entire production including all the missed opportunities, the unopposed motions and BdlR first year law student closing. That why she acted as if she had won an award on cable tv.

      • Malisha says:

        gotto agree. Her conduct SINCE the verdict has also been inappropriate and political.

      • Kimmi says:

        I also have some questions for JN…
        Why wasn’t Donnelly’s war dude’s (sp?) testimony struck after he obviously violated the witness sequestration rule?
        Why was the “an aggressor cannot claim self defense” left out of jury instructions?

        • bettykath says:

          MOM and West said that Shellie invited him in to their section. He was their 1 1/2 days when West saw him and told him he couldn’t stay. They identified the witnesses who testified and apparently the call hadn’t been played. JN decided that it was a technical foul but didn’t affect his testimony so left it.

          It wouldn’t have mattered. B37 said that Serino’s opinion answer that he believed fogen’s story at an early point was extremely important. JN told the jury to ignore that testimony.

      • Ms.X says:

        I believe the same as you. Its really obvious to me.

  55. Deborah Moore says:

    Good Morning, Faithful Leatherheads.
    Thank you Fred, for Everything.
    FauxMcCoy – You’re a Joy!
    When I first started commenting here I was thrilled to see the level of discourse, but over the last couple of days, I was actually going to stop blogging completely. Good to see some sanity returning here.
    Hugs to all.

  56. ay2z says:

    I just wrote a comment, and the cat decided to walk over the mouse tablet and it was gone.

    It’s a no brainer, no one wants an invasion of that degradation here. I have not been able to read the discussions closely enough to see this happening. If that’s been going on, it’s not welcome, enough already of the pre-trial use by the defense supporters, of their doxing hatred towards the victim in this case.

    I put Mark O’Mara squarely to blame for driving the media, and for the court’s decisions to not take some control. This went way beyond ‘need to know’, it’s a frightening, rather than brave new world.

    Here is an interesting perspective in a Canadia report, not an editorial, but from a more disinterested, non AP, non US big media source (less commercially driven source, more like a national PBS or NPR) , about the media post trial and why it’s such a draw for them.


    • ay2z says:

      From the Canadian report, quoting

      ‘Cable TV news is just not really the place to have nuanced or intelligent discussion about much of anything these days.’
      —Eric Boehlert

      and putting the quote in perspective

      Missed opportunity

      However, some say the Zimmerman coverage has also benefitted American society.

      Defenders of cable news network coverage of the trial have argued that cases like this encourage important national discussions, particularly about issues like race relations and gun control in the U.S., and that is why the ‘gavel-to-gavel’ coverage is important.

      Even so, critics argue that until the verdict was handed down, most of the media discussion revolved around the day-to-day courtroom minutia and failed to adequately address the big social issues connected to the trial.

      “The media hasn’t successfully nurtured constructive debates about these issues. They are just throwing them out there to heighten the sense of the drama, and then they are focusing on the hyper-specific aspects of the trial,” says Byers.

      Boehlert agrees, noting that following the verdict on the weekend there was a deluge of helpful analysis about the larger issues at hand on social media and in the news, but that it was “too little, too late.”

      “Cable TV news is just not really the place to have a nuance or intelligent discussion about much of anything these days,” he says.

      The Frederick Leatherman Law Blog is one of these rare places where discussions can take place and should take place about the larger social issues. Doxing has no role in this for any purpose but anarchy and destruction, which is why the discussions are important to us here, in the first place. It is vigilantism, not much different from the actions of George Zimmerman.

    • Tzar says:

      I don’t want to simply blame people like Mark O’Mara
      people like him would love to wipe their ass with our blames after his morning ablutions, they don’t care about our blaming
      in fact, I would submit to you that they enjoy them
      legal action is what matters to them
      financial sanction is what matters to them
      criminal prosecution is what matters to them

  57. Elijah says:

    Good morning – Reporting from my hometown LA. Really wasn’t much of anything, it’s just that we have so much media based here..everything looks bigger. I’m still nauseated by the verdict, but not surprised. I do know that the presently acquitted will eventually end up for a long stay in a Federal Prison for hate crimes, which has always been lurking…

    In the final analysis of Sanford and Florida…. “It’s Chinatown Jake”.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I was upset because the rally in S. LA turned chaotic last night and about 150 kids, and from the looks of it, all black, were running amok. The police made it clear that the group wasn’t part of the larger rally earlier, but that’s one brief announcement – and then the media loops and reloops the film of the kids walking on cars and trying to pull a fence down and other stuff for 10-15 minutes. : /

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I lived my first 30 years in California and taught in the area you are talking about…..actually farther east (crossing Crenshaw) into inner city. My students were great!

        I feel an unfair portrait is being portrayed of inner city youth. Yesterday, I asked Diane if she would reconsider her generalization that inner city youth had no desire to learn. I considered that statement so very wrong based upon my experience.

        In the news the majority of L.A.’s inner city residents are being labeled by the actions of just a few individuals. These media reports and their reloops are so unfair to the people who live there.

        P.S. I don’t think Diane had a chance to read my question to her because of the more than 1000 comments yesterday.


        • Two sides to a story says:

          I believe that the media did go overboard in the way Fogen was portrayed prior to any discovery / evidence being available, And then it was unfair to Trayvon and his family when West, OMara and their minions released pictures and texts out of context from Trayvon’s phone.

          Now the media is going to gloss over hours and hours and hours of peaceful protests and jump on any disturbance. Though they may think they’re showing it in a neutral fashion, they play and replay this stuff so much that it only feeds the hatred and scorn of bigots who have already made their minds up.

          While I haven’t worked in the inner cities, I have worked with scores of high school kids of all races, ethnicities and religions in smaller towns and I have no doubt that the kids of inner city Los Angeles aren’t any different except in the fact that they’re exposed to more racism and inequity than kids in suburbia and rural areas (and racism and inequity isn’t absent there either, but is less ubiqitious).

  58. Boyd says:

    I understand people are pissed off. To that Juror, Trayvon was a bug. She said everything they say at the CTH, she’s paid attention to this saga since day 1.

    “Those people” In my neck of the woods it’s “Those peoples”.

    We do not have to ‘dox’ her. She was dumb to go on TV, everyone in Sanford will soon know who she is by her voice. You know people will talk, let MSNBC,FOX do the doxing.

  59. Rachael says:

    Thank you professor. We may not like the verdict, we may not agree with it, but we certainly don’t need to lower ourselves to the level of say the refuse. We can all come here and speak our minds and do so without hatred, violence and ill-will against others and have the dignity and graciousness that Trayvon’s family has. Because we ARE Trayvon’s family. We are all family and hurting each other hurts ourselves.

    And I agree with Sophia33, making money off a civic duty is wrong.

  60. Wanna says:

    Good morning, from a long time lurker. If we do not oppose such behavior, we become as them, heavens forbid.

  61. concernedczen says:

    Is anyone here threatening to dox jurors or get violent with them?

    • crazy1946 says:

      There has been at least one person posting what is alleged to be a photo of the Juror who was going to write a book. That, because of the possibility of violence occurring, should not be done…. Unless that person was actually encouraging violence, it could not be considered useful knowledge…..

    • diary73 says:

      Some posts in yesterday’s thread prompted this reaction from our host, concernedczen.

    • Yes, and I have taken appropriate action. Someone posted a photo of a juror and I removed it.

      • Judy75201 says:

        I believe that was a photo of the woman offering to represent the juror’s book.

        • crazy1946 says:

          Was it really a photo of her or was it much like the Tree Sewer did to DD and assumed it was her when in truth it was not!

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @crazy — it was a photo, but of the wrong person, the literary agent. it was exactly the same kind of stunt you’d see at the CTH. i would like to think we are better than that.

          • crazy1946 says:

            That is what I was talking about, the person that posted that photo was acting much like what we saw from the tree sewer! I’m glad the Professor resolved the problem before it became worse…..

        • fauxmccoy says:


          yes, it did seem to be. not only doxing, but baaaad doxing at that.

      • crazy1946 says:

        Thank you…..

  62. Sophia33 says:

    Good morning everyone!

    I had to look up what doxing means.

    I agree. I do think that we need to change the laws. I don’t think being on a high profile jury should be like winning the lottery. They should not be allowed to write books and charge for speaking engagements after the trial. If they want to give an interview, that’s fine. But making money off of civic duty should not be allowed.

    Also, think we need to push laws that prevent people from being the aggressor in a confrontation and then claiming self-defense.

    • concernedczen says:

      I agree, but I am also concerned about this particular jury in that her husband is a local attorney AND Frank Taaffe went on TV and said he had “inside information” into what was going on in the jury room.

      He said there was one holdout to an acquittal and he turned out to be right.

      Coupled with the way the DT and the defendant did not look scared or concerned when the verdict was read, I think the question (at least) needs to be asked about whether or not one ore more jurors was a stealth juror for the defense team and was feeding information to them.

      • LiveByTheGulf says:

        I didn’t know what doxing meant either. Here is a great explanation of doxing.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        concerned — if you have any reliable and pertinent information regarding jury misconduct, please contact the state attorneys office — http://www.sao4th.com/ . contact information is in a column on the left hand side. i used it during the trial when i had evidence of jenna lauer’s lies on the stand and i forwarded it to them.

        even if i do not agree with all of their actions throughout the trial, i am sure they would have rather had a conviction. verified juror misconduct would result in a mistrial and thus a new trial. prosecutors are also members of LE with a full investigative staff. they have access to the juror questionnaires which should provide answers (or mis statements) by the jurors. regardless of how any of us may feel about florida LE, these are the folks to contact.

        as to taaffe, i would not believe one word out of his whiskey breath mouth, but that’s just me.

        • whonoze says:


          What was your evidence of Lauer’s lies?

          • fauxmccoy says:

            whonoze: she stated on the stand that she was not following zimjr and gzlegal on twitter. she lied when she said she was not, convinced folks that the ‘following’ button meant they were following her. it would only show up that way on someone else’s account, not hers. i had the chance to look it up while she was in court and was taking screen shots right as she was deleting her account. when i refreshed the browser, the account had disappeared, but not before i got screen shots.

            it may not be a big damn deal, but she lied.

    • Xena says:


      Also, think we need to push laws that prevent people from being the aggressor in a confrontation and then claiming self-defense.

      That’s the problem. It’s already written in the law. Based on her interview with Anderson Cooper, Juror B37 admitted that GZ confronted Trayvon, but she believes that Trayvon should have ran again.

      In the mind of Juror B37, there was no room to consider that since GZ followed Trayvon once, that he would chase him again.

      In the mind of Juror B37, an unarmed Black teenager is not allowed to punch a non-Black in the nose in effort to get away from the creep.

      In the mind of Juror B37, Trayvon had no rights. That means the law, no matter how it is written, only applies to non-Blacks when prejudicial Whites sit on the jury.

  63. Hi Friends….I’m working on a sort of “political cartoon” for this that expresses how I feel about the verdict. Unfortunately, I need my iPad to do that & it seems to have died…so watch this space, please.

    I appreciate everyone here so much. I live in central FL….I was in Sanford the day of the big march, but had to leave because of my weeping. I gave a poster that I drew to a family there, and that poster has been in many news photos.

    I’m feeling lonely, isolated and alienated in my “home” town. This isn’t home…I’m an alien here. It’s legal to kill people of color & then blame them for it. So many white progressives here support the verdict.

    My theory as to why (besides the obvious racism): to validate themselves. Nobody here was outraged when this crime first occurred. It wasn’t until the AP picked it up that it went huge…AP picked it up only because of Rev. Al & Mr. Crump.

    The Orlando Sentinel didn’t break this story. So they had egg on their face. But since GZ is legally “not guilty,” then OS doesn’t feel shamed.

    The same is true of the SPD…since GZ was found not guilty, they are validated.

    i just wanted to thank you all for your support. You have no idea how much it means to me.

    • MDH says:

      Tell the “progressives” that the foundation of the USA was based on reason and critical thinking.

      Then ask: “How, pray tell, is the fear of the possibility of a black boy harming them” raise a reasonable doubt?

      If that does not work, then play the 9-11 tape.

      Ask them, “What did GZ say that was based on reason and critical thinking”?

      If they start that shit about break ins.

      Ask these questions:

      How many black male out of 100 would a reasonable person assume to be a burglar based on the crime rate in Sanford?

      IMO, 1/100 might be a valid assumption.


      Then ask

      Is it reasonable to put the other 99/100 black males lives in danger by approaching them with a loaded gun in the dark and not telling them who you are and why you are there?

      Then ask:

      What is a more reasonable result of GZ’s actions?

      A tragic death of an innocent person?


      Catching a burglar?

      Logic is a stern taskmaster.

    • Claire says:

      I wish you the very very best. Hugs!!!! xx

    • bettykath says:

      Ed, Something to remember and to ease your pain. Karma.

      “Dear George Zimmerman,

      For the rest of your life you are now going to feel what its like to be a black man in America.

      You will feel people stare at you. Judging you for what you think are unfair reasons. You will lose out on getting jobs for something you feel is outside of your control. You will believe yourself to be an upstanding citizen and wonder why people choose to not see that.

      People will cross the street when they see you coming. They will call you hurtful names. It will drive you so insane some days that you’ll want to scream at the top of your lungs. But you will have to wake up the next day, put on firm look and push through life.

      I bet you never thought that by shooting a black male you’d end up inheriting all of his struggles.

      Enjoy your ‘freedom.’


      A black male who could’ve been Trayvon Martin”
      – See more at: http://madamenoire.com/286260/bet-you-never-thought-that-by-shooting-a-black-man-youd-inherit-all-of-his-struggles-lance-gross-pens-gripping-letter-to-george-zimmerman/#sthash.lr8z6UqH.dpuf

  64. Sophia33 says:


  65. William Walton says:

    Prof: I totally agree with you. It would be best if we would show that we can legally work within the system of laws. We as Americans are a Nation of laws.

  66. Rachael says:

    good morning

  67. fauxmccoy says:

    thanks, fred. i would love to see this place become what it once was — a shining example of respective debate. your sentiments echo my own,

    • crazy1946 says:

      Thank you for putting into words what I was thinking! I had to sit on my hands to keep from posting a few unkind words to one person who has the opinion that “all is fair to do and say” in regards to anyone who shares an opinion that is not his….

      • ay2z says:

        hmm, that person saying that ought to read the news more often. One person said something on social media, and recently got 10 years in prison for it.

        Will try to come across the story link again.

    • gwynne says:

      Adding my thanks, as well.

    • diary73 says:

      I agree with this statement 100 percent.

    • Sleuth says:

      ~ fauxmccoy

      Good Morning.

      I totally agree. IIRC, you wrote an excellent article on doxing or something about internet privacy and security. Might be a good time to re-post it or write a fresh one.

    • abbyj says:

      True, Faux. We were all so distraught with the verdict that our frustration and anger poured out, but Fred is right: we’re better than that. And, this is THE place for respectful debate. No matter our disappointment, we’ll live up to the highest standards that Fred and members of this blog have set.

  68. crazy1946 says:


    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I agree with you.

      It is good to see the NAACP’s guidance in how to effect change and bring about equal justice and a society where children can be safe.

      People need to come together and be constructively empowered to travel that justice road.

      Any individuals who respond with vandalism or violence would only be throwing nails on that road and flattening the tires of that justice car.

      That justice car needs to make it to its destination.

      How sad if it were disabled by such nails in the road!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Thanks for posting this video last night, smokeegyrl.

        Stevie Wonder:

        What I do know is that people know that my heart is of love for everyone.

        And, when I say everyone, I mean EVERYONE.

        And so, as I said earlier, you can’t just talk about it….you gotta to be about it.

        We can make change by coming together for the spirit of unity…not in destruction, but in the perpetuation of life itself.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Present, finally, and overwhelmingly both shocked and sad after receiving a text Sunday morning on the verdict. Much catching up awaits.

      And, yes, on the doxing issue, we are better than that.

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