A remorseless child killer is a free man today in Sanford Florida

Sunday, July 14, 2013

Despite overwhelming evidence of guilt, a jury of 6 women last night found George Zimmerman not guilty of murdering Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black teenager who was walking home in the rain minding his own business talking to a girlfriend on his cell phone after purchasing Skittles and a can of Arizona iced tea at a 711. Zimmerman, a white cop wannabe and Neighborhood Watch captain in the gated community where Martin was staying, spotted the black teenager walking home. He did not recognize him and arbitrarily decided that he looked out of place and “up to no good.”

Zimmerman called the Sanford Police Department’s non-emergency number and reported what he saw. With a police officer en route, he followed the teenager first in his vehicle and then on foot after the teenager attempted to get away from him by running behind a building of townhomes. Muttering under his breath, “fucking punks” and “these assholes, they always get away,” he got out of his vehicle and took off after teen. Ignoring a warning from the police dispatcher not to follow the teen, he hunted him down and when he found him, he attacked and threw him to the ground. During the ensuing struggle, he sustained minor bleeding injuries to his nose and to the back of his head. With the responding officer less than a minute away, he pulled out his gun and executed the teenager at point blank range with a single shot to the heart. He killed him because Trayvon Martin struggled and would not submit to his authority.

Trayvon Martin died without knowing who attacked him or why he attacked him because at no time did Zimmerman identify himself by name or as a member of Neighborhood Watch.

The defendant told police that he killed the unarmed teenager in self-defense.

This verdict is shocking, unconscionable and indefensible. It’s an absolute outrage that should be condemned by every human being who cares about the safety of their children and every human being who believes in equal justice under law.

Because of this terrible case, no adult or child with brown skin in Sanford, Florida can go out for a walk without fearing that some crazy white freak with a gun is going to hunt them down and kill them just because they can.

People should not expect the police to help them. Investigator Chris Serino and Officer Doris Singleton of the Sanford Police Department testified at the defendant’s trial that they believed his claim of self-defense despite Zimmerman’s minimal and insignificant injuries, numerous lies and material inconsistencies in his stories to them and his admission that he passed up two opportunities to identify himself as a concerned member of Neighborhood Watch and ask the teen if he needed assistance. They did not even arrest Zimmerman.

How is it possible that the jury could have acquitted a man who executed an unarmed child with a single shot to the heart?

Shame on the members of this jury. The stain of Trayvon Martin’s blood is now on your souls forever. Better get down on your knees and beg God for forgiveness.

And shame on Chris Serino and Doris Singleton for vouching for a child killer.

With the whole world watching, all of you have disgraced the community in which you live.

Behold Sanford, Florida: You are the ugly face of racism and lawlessness.


Please take a few moments of your time to review and sign the following petitions:

White House


Individuals Who Care

1,071 Responses to A remorseless child killer is a free man today in Sanford Florida

  1. gwynne says:

    So according to the book shopping juror, z’s heart was in the right place??
    His heart was in the right place when he shot a bullet into directly into Trayvon’s heart, huh?
    I am shocked and dismayed at her casual comments. On the other hand, her biases are so ingrained that she’s clueless that she’s revealing quite a bit about how she views the world. Her “compassion” is limited to the gunman.
    That Maya Angelou quote about “when people tell you who they are, believe them” applies here.

  2. flcarroll says:

    Is there any recourse if the jury was tampered with or compromised?

  3. Socialkenny says:

    It’s mind boggling to me also how Zimmer can claim self defense after he went in pursuit SMH

  4. Great article! We need more writers and analysts like you (the original poster). I mean, the claim of self defense is so ludicrous that it’s not even funny!

  5. KateW says:

    O M G that Huffington Post piece says the killer’s friends say he is considering law school now.

    So now this killer wants to move from shooting Black people to prosecuting them. This guy is a piece of work. No remorse still for the tragedy he has caused. Oh, I think I’ll go to law school. Oh my goodness I can’t!!

    • No worries. Fogen couldn’t get out of community college with an Associates’ degree, let alone getting a Bachelor’s degree. He’ll need to compete with other competent, highly educated folk to get into law school. Unless, of course, DaddyZ pays tuition for him at the Matchbook School of Law.

      • gwynne says:

        daddyz can write all the checks he wants, but there is one little problem. He can’t buy fogen the smarts to pass.

  6. whonoze says:

    FL wrote: “Of course, if you are going to ambush someone, you don’t approach, say something to them, and then throw a punch.”

    This is the important point.

    On a minor point, though, FL also wrote: “TM would not have known what GZ looked like, since he did not see him outside of the truck.”

    That doesn’t follow (no pun intended).

    GZ cruised right by the mailboxes at slow speed, then parked on the corner of TTL staring at TM. TM watched GZ watching him, and saw that GZ was on the phone. Then TM passed close by the truck as he attempted to walk home. He would have gotten a good look at GZ at that time, certainly noticing the distinctive pattern of the red jacket.

    There’s also a good chance that TM looked back to check where the CAC was after he heard GZ leave the truck and run down the cut-through sidewalk. Even in the dark area of the T, TM might well have seen a silhouette outline of GZ.

    But TM’s ability to identify GZ is irrelevant.

    What I would observe is this: We know that at the point TM passed GZ’s truck, both men were scared of each other. TM was expressing concern about the creepy azzcracka to Rachel, and you can hear in GZ’s voice that he shits a brick as TM comes abreast of the truck. But then things change. TM passes the truck and turns his back to GZ. GZ begins to relax. Then TM runs, displaying fear. GZ is now emboldened enough to get out of his truck and chase after the youth. Now, while TM did something to change GZ’s attitude. GZ did nothing to change TM’s attitude. If TM was afraid enough to run while GZ was in the truck, what could lead TM to reverse his assessment once GZ got out of the truck? On the contrary, with the CAC getting out to follow him on foot, TM could only have been more afraid.

    What did happen, apparently, is that TM refused to give in to his fear. He knew he had a right to walk home without being followed. Yes, no matter what he might have smoked earlier that day, a 5’11” 156 lb. 17 year old could have outrun GZ if he wanted to. But he let GZ catch up to him so he could ask him “Why you following me for?”

    This was his ‘crime.’ He refused to run. He refused to act like a second class citizen. He refused to grant authority to a unidentified CAC. For a black teen in Florida in 2013, that’s functionally the same thing as attacking a white man with a sucker punch.

    • Malisha says:

      Whonoze, I can’t go there with all the assumptions about what Trayvon Martin did. We DO have Fogen’s own information about what HE did. I think we can extrapolate from that, given the physical evidence.

      Fogen DID notice and “note” Trayvon Martin.
      Fogen and Rachel both tell us that Trayvon noticed Fogen too.
      I’ll accept both parts of that.
      Then, however:

      Fogen tells us Trayvon Martin circled his truck.
      Physical evidence proves that did not happen.

      Fogen tells us Trayvon Martin disappeared.
      That does fit with the evidence, so I’ll take that as given.

      Fogen then tells us Trayvon Martin came out of somewhere (he writes, “the suspect again emerged from the darkness”) and said, “What the F’s your problem homie?” or “What the F’s your problem?” or “You got a F’n problem?”

      Then Fogen tells us Trayvon waited for an answer.
      THEN Fogen tells us he answered that he did not have a problem.
      THEN Fogen tells us that Trayvon had another announcement: “You got a problem now.”
      Only THEN does Fogen tell us that Trayvon punched him.

      I really don’t think we need to second guess Trayvon Martin. Given this exact set of circumstances, had Trayvon Martin punched Fogen right there as Fogen said, it was still a SYG punch on Trayvon Martin’s part. He had been marked, followed in a vehicle, followed on foot, and fronted off. If he wasn’t scared, if he decided to not be a second-class citizen, if he was scared, if he knew about SYG, if he didn’t, none of that is necessary or sufficient information relating to whether or not the situation would give rise to rights, on Trayvon Martin’s part, to defend himself from possible (probable — in fact in retrospect 100% probability) great bodily injury or death.

    • willisnewton says:

      Trayvon ran because the car began to follow him and he wanted to get off the roadway. Both to abc news/Ben Crump and then on the stand under Don West’s cross, Racahel Jeantel speaks to this issue. The difficulty is, the state NEVER ASKED HER point blank about the issue because their investigation failed to see the car to pedestrian chase that had to have taken place. The timing of the NEN call shows it’s the most likely explanation.

      Also, GZ’s impossible and false narrative suggests this is what happened, and more importantly GZ marked a map that shows he parked where he would have had to move his car after the teen if we are to believe where his car was spotted later by the resident who asked for a cell phone pic the wagner pic, to be taken. She was the bedridden “facetime” ipad witness.

      • willisnewton says:

        Another thing that the state never put together or presented to the jury was that GZ NEVER told SPD that Trayvon ran AT ALL. he only spoke to the matter when prompted, and told the story several times specifically leaving it out.

        Again the state’s case never made clear to the jury that but for the NEN call, no one but RJ and GZ wold have ever known that Trayvon ran away. GZ tried to tell a false narrative to the SPD, and he seems to have succeeded as far as Serino and SIngleton were concerned in this regard, despite their catching him in it partially.

        It’s a telling lie – he’s covering something he knows marked him as the aggressor. It the reason he tells the lie about TM “doubling back / circling my car” – he is making an attempt at keeping the timeline intact by substitution of his own actions for that of the teen.

        I’m uninterested in ascribing motive to any action that is not criminal. GZ’s lying to SPD is a crime. His chasing the teen with his car is possible criminal stalking.

        Let’s get this discussion back on point. many things are possible. What GZ claimed happened is not possible.

    • roderick2012 says:

      whonoze : “What I would observe is this: We know that at the point TM passed GZ’s truck, both men were scared of each other. TM was expressing concern about the creepy azzcracka to Rachel, and you can hear in GZ’s voice that he shits a brick as TM comes abreast of the truck. But then things change. GZ is now emboldened enough to get out of his truck and chase after the youth. Now, while TM did something to change GZ’s attitude. GZ did nothing to change TM’s attitude.”

      Why would George have even been? George had the safety of being inside a two ton vehicle. George had a loaded gun. George had eighteen months of MMA training under his belt. George also knew that Trayvon was a skinny teenager.

      “TM passes the truck and turns his back to GZ. GZ begins to relax. Then TM runs, displaying fear.”

      There has always been speculation that George sexually propositioned Trayvon. Of course since only one of the witnesses is alive we will never know. Or maybe Trayvon got a look at George when he passed the truck and thought he looked like a skinhead.

      “If TM was afraid enough to run while GZ was in the truck, what could lead TM to reverse his assessment once GZ got out of the truck? On the contrary, with the CAC getting out to follow him on foot, TM could only have been more afraid.”

      I believe the obvious is the most likely possibility. Rachael stated that Trayvon was tired which makes sense because he had been walking a lot that day. Also Trayvon stopped to hide because he was probably in CAC’s direct line of sight walking down the sidewalk. Another reason that Trayvon hid was because he didn’t want to lead George back to where he was staying—Trayvon was not only protecting himself but also didn’t want to endanger Chad.

      • @Roderick2012 sez: “There has always been speculation that George sexually propositioned Trayvon.”

        Oh puhleeze! There are too many folk who would have willingly given in to Fogen’s proposition as you have stated, for a fee.

        If we are going on into ‘conspiracy’ crap, if anything, I’m pi$$ed that the Fusion center that connects to the two cell phone towers in the area didn’t step up to show what happened with Trayvon and Fogen’s movements within the 2 minute time gap that many have been uncertain about. In other words, had Fogen been a known terrorist, we would have heard how he traversed south down Retreat View Circle and cut an American citizen off at the south part of the dog walk and chased him north toward the T by now.

        • roderick2012 says:

          Medusausi (@Medusausi) Oh puhleeze! There are too many folk who would have willingly given in to Fogen’s proposition as you have stated, for a fee.

          I just threw that out there, but considering that George abused his younger female cousin for ten years it shows that George gets off sexually dominating younger and what he perceives as more vulnerable people.

  7. Deborah Moore says:

    Good Morning, Leatherheads.
    Still a little reeling here this morning. I finally turned the tv Off yesterday afternoon.
    I haven’t watched anything where the vile defense lawyers were Talking. Right now, I can’t stand to even live on the same planet as them. Or the Z family.
    This morning on the Thomas Roberts show, he and Melissa Harris-Perry talked about how important open dialogue is, reference all the Others in society…Black, Hispanic, GLBT and Women in general (losing rights over making decisions about their bodies, and all the ways our society is unfair. They talked about having a having a special where they could highlight these injustices. They were very excited about the thought of doing that and I hope they do. Maybe I’ll send and email to both of them.

  8. tonya B says:

    watching HLN berine de la rionda said that he believed that Zimmerman had the gun out before he approached martin …… im wondering why he didn’t mention it during trial

    • fauxmccoy says:

      tonya — this is one of the many problems of trying a case with no real witnesses. he mention it on closing arguments, the only place he could, really. sadly, his closing argument was not well organized.

      all of the demonstrations on ‘how did he get the gun?’ while playing with their prop and pointing out how impossible it would have been for trayvon to have seen it, reached for it, and the physical impossibility of accessing the gun based on the defendant’s own statements. it was asked as a question to the jurors, with a ‘you figure it out’.

      jurors want a more concrete (for lack of better words) theory. he would have done better to show the physical impossibility and then say directly, ‘we believe the defendat already had his gun out, because the story he tells is impossible.’

      there are still problems with that though — there is no proof and even if jurors thought it was likely that the gun was already out, it might be just fine in their eyes.

      the whole damned thing just sucks.

      • tonya B says:

        if they think like that then they are really DUMB all they had to do was try with one another to get that gun and play the tape of fogen reaching for it and they would’ve seen how impossible that was yes I agree the prosecution made big blunders but the evidence was there and he lied …and the screams WOW those women had to be very naïve to believe that it was fogen screaming I AM IN SHOCK VERY DEPRESSED I cant believe we live in a world where its ok to kill kids after you have stalked and followed them my heart hurts I have a 15 yr old son I also know brandy green very well she is a great person we have been friends for over 20 yrs Im really broken hearted and loss for words at the very least they could have given him manslaughter it was there but they let this dude walk im in shockWOW

        • fauxmccoy says:

          i am so sorry, knowing ms green must make this especially difficult. her son was excellent on the witness stand, in spite of his age. she must be very proud and of course wracked with grief that he had to be there at all.

          • tonya B says:

            yesssss im sick trying to come to grips with all this its horrible I don’t trust the justice system

  9. smokeegyrl says:

    I want to apologize to anyone that I have offended on this blog if I have said anything that was out of line or may have been construed or non-factual. I would never intend to hurt anyone intentional or cause havoc or spread wildfires. I call it as I see it. I always back up what I see or told. I think most of us do that. but if I am proven wrong I will say I am wrong and I will apologize or admit that I am wrong. Now with that out of the way. Good Morning from the Mile High City of Denver Colorado and Have a Blessed Day!

  10. Lucy T says:

    What can we expect from prosecutors who put away a black woman for 20 years for “aggravated assault” merely for firing a warning shot against an abusive husband? The jury came back after only 12 minutes on that one. What is wrong with this picture? Lesson learned: if you’re black and merely fire a gun with no attempt to kill someone as a means of self-defense, Fla. state prosecutors will see that you do hard time. If you’re white and purposely shoot and kill an unarmed black teenager because you feel “threatened,” the same prosecutors will not try too hard to get you convicted. I wonder if the only other case these prosecutors lost involved a white cold-blooded murderer who is now running free?

    • MDH says:

      Simple answer in the minds of a lot of white Floridians – black people are inherently violent.

      In the case of the black women it was “we need to put away that violent out of control black women for a long time”

      In the case of T “too bad that black boy could not control his rage and GZ had to shoot him”

  11. dianetrotter says:

    DOJ should also check HuffPost to see if there is something there.

    • darlinsass says:

      The DOJ needs to check the outhouse and it’s leader as well!

      • Hello Darlisass !

        That idiot posted that when the Sherman Ware incident
        happened Obama was a senator and marched with Daryl Parks and Benjamin Crump ,the dumb failed to know that in 2010 Obama was already Two years in his presidency.

        The idiot even said he posted some pictures of the event.

        He’s whining because he was outed and he Doxed state witnesses.

  12. KateW says:

    I don’t know if the DOJ would do anything either but they can start with the phone records. 50+ calls to 911 regarding Black persons and I do believe they said one call was of a 7 or 8 year old. How petty is that. A kid walking on the sidewalk should not have been suspicious but he deviated from his plan to go to Target and he chased this kid down. The kid tried to get away but he chased him down with a loaded weapon. That to me is a violation of his civil rights and a violation of his human rights.

    The protests all over the country was amazing. It had his attorney Skeletor talking. He said I thought this would be over. THe jury found him innocent or something to that effect. Your client murdered an unarmed child and you expect people to be silent and just go about their lives. This was important to a generation of young people! These young people care about this kid and frankly what is transpiring in this nation.

    The blogs and websites are filled with racist bigots saying vile, disgusting things about a dead child. Then his supporters want to ask, where is all this racism coming from. FROM YOU crazy racists!

    • Jasmine says:

      And he followed one man to his home and still nothing was done. If they choose not to charge him, it would be because they don’t want to.

      • KateW says:

        True but that is why we need to keep the pressure on them. The NAACP seems to be leading the charge, but we have to do the same. Write your President and donate to the cause if you can. I feel, they have more than enough pertinent information to charge him. Those 911 calls are a good place to start because it is documented detail of the type of person(s) he was profiling.

    • Girlp says:

      I’m praying there is enough direct evidence to prosecute him , they have made it so hard.

  13. YQ says:

    “I bet George Zimmerman wouldn’t go to Chicago’s low streets and profile those black teens. He wants to fight crime and help black kids, that should be the first place he should go.”

    That “Chicago” argument is ridiculous. You know, all of the AAs murdering other AAs in the past year. I don’t even live there and I know for a fact that some people are trying to help that situation out. There is this one lady who is compromising the safety of her home to allow juveniles to get somewhere to sleep at night. She has bricks that she places in her yard, each one representing a life that was taken due to street violence. No one has even threatened to take her life this whole time-at least not that I know of. But it’s only so much that a non-profit can do. So now this raises the question: WHAT IS OUR TAX MONEY DOING TO ENSURE THAT THOSE STREETS ARE SAFE? Not a damn thing and they know it. If anything were to come out of this, I’d say we need to put an abrupt end to racial profiling. That’s not working.

    • KA says:

      Chicago, as a native, is a smokescreen for racist to say “they are killing each other”.

      Yet, they never talk about the crimes that whites do. The fact is, the percentages of intra-race violence and crime int he US as nearly exactly the same.

      White people like to forget about their own issues with killing and violence, that is why they LOVE to bring up Chicago…

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I’m so sick of hearing the Chicago argument from Fogen supporters. #2 is the assertion that not guilty means innocent and that every bit of Fogen’s narrative is to be believed.

      How can this nonsense be turned around? I saw a lawyer telling one Fogen supporter on legal question site that because refused to learn legal terms that he didn’t really care about the case – he only cared about fighting with liberals.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        @twosidies — first, i would think that engaging with anyone gloating over the verdict is not worth responding to. second, if you must, i would counter with a simple ‘so you think OJ was innocent, too?’ and leave it at that.

  14. Boyd says:

    Justice is blind ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Can we please stop the lying.

  15. Judy75201 says:

    Quote from atty Ian Millhiser on twitter:

    “Prosecutors have to prove their case “beyond a reasonable doubt.” Defense attorneys only have to create doubt.”

    We have to fix this gross use of reasonable doubt in our justice system.

  16. Endless Summer says:

    Here is a blogpost about the relationship between the Sanford Police Department and the RATL HOA that I think is important:


    When the case first broke I was curious as to whether fogen’s claims of “lots of break-ins” was true. I searched for the statistics, and there are several websites that post stats taken from local police reports. The incidents posted for RATL were mostly for stolen bicycles. There was one burglary and that was it. A week later when interest in the case had grown, I went back to for a link to one of the crime sites and the stats were completely different, showing several different types of crime for RATL. I was sick that I had not saved data from the week before, because it appeared to have been manipulated since that time.

    This blogger makes another point that was rarely covered (except for people here pointing it out) and that is that fogen was a renter who didn’t even pay his rent. In point of fact, that is theft. He was stealing from his landlord by not paying his rent.

    As for the DOJ, I, too, don’t expect much. They wouldn’t prosecute financial institutions who stole trillions of dollars, they probably won’t prosecute a child killer.

    • Boyd says:

      yeah we knew he was a renter and late on payments.

      A renter with a gun patrolling can kill your neighbor’s guest and walk away in time for dinner.

    • Girlp says:

      I read an article early in the case in 2012 I said this earlier, most people would have been arrested for abuse of 911 or for bogus calls to the PD.

    • Malisha says:

      I FOIA’d the info, and guess what: Not true, what Frances Robles and the other journalists reported 1,000 times in March 2012. Three burglaries, 5 other actual thefts (all petty) and NO SHOOTINGS in RTL until Fogen killed Trayvon Martin. I announced this to the journalists and they all refused to deal with it; no retractions, no story on how the false narrative started (it started with the SPD giving false information to Miami Herald) and no attention even from the Feds, whom I informed. That’s why I’m sure they’re only conducting a cosmetic “investigation” — they do not want to “find” that SPD was covering-up racist crimes. Because THIS was not the only racist crime that SPD covered up; indeed it was their habit.

    • LiveByTheGulf says:

      I went to your link and read the article. The article’s link to the 183 page Neighborhood Watch Newletter of June 2011 was no longer available. You can view it at:

  17. HeresLookingatYOU says:

    I hope no one forgets ..the murderer… and anything he does or trys to further profit from this childs death ..everyone bands together and shuts down…as from the color purple..anything he touches gonna fail til he do right by Trayvon and the hell he made for Trayvon is gonna be the one he has made for himself.

  18. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Councilman Jumaane Williams shares a photo from the Union Square rally and protest in honor of slained teen Trayvon Martin. ‘I’m in #UnionSquare with hundreds of New Yorkers all seeking #justiceforTrayvon. We must end #profiling in America,’ Williams messaged.

  19. Beverly says:

    Looks like the dreaded riots did not appear, but I heard several opinions that the federal case would be very difficult in its need to prove racial animus. Some anticipation that Holder may speak out

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      When people say it would be difficult to prove I think NOT! The DOJ and Federal Court System proved it in the following case because you had caring people who went after the killers.

      Search “The Michael Donald Lynching Case.”

    • cielo62 says:

      Beverly- I heard that too. But hey! 46 call to 911 and ALL of them about black males, plus his texts and online shit should rise to the level of racial animus.


  20. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    There’s a man with a gun over there
    Telling me I got to beware.
    I think it’s time we stop
    Children, what’s that sound?
    Everybody look – what’s going down.

  21. Girlp says:

    As far as the DOJ case President Reagen is the one that made it harder to bring and prosecute hate crimes. Reagen raised the bar.

  22. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    There’s something happening here
    But what it is ain’t exactly clear

  23. Girlp says:

    http://www.nbcnews.com/id/46979745/vp/52473333#52473327…discussion of O’Mar and West statements…..looks like the SPD would be most likley fall under DOJ than Zimmerman(very slight chance).

    • LiveByTheGulf says:

      They could also check out the truthfulness of the witnesses’ testimony – perjury anyone. It seemed that MOM got a whole bunch of people to get on the stand to say it was fogen that was yelling for help.
      Could they also check out the prosecution – was their less than stellar performance complicit in getting fogen’s verdict of “Not guilty.”

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Judge barred defendant’s prior bad acts, barred experts regarding screamer’s identity, allowed defense lawyers to slow proceedings while jury was sequestered, allowed defense witnesses to collude and disregard sequestration, allowed defense to block State on voir dire, and did not maintain order in her court.

      • Girlp says:

        There are lots of possibilities the best is to dial back the SYG laws make it harder to carry a weapon, if you really are a responsible person you would not mind taking any test and bringing proof that you passed a mental health test….many will disagree with this but we don’t need people like GZ carrying guns. I am listening to MHP’s broadcast from yesterday. Hopefully the Martin/Fulton’s can bring a civil suite against GZ and win. But it seems the majority in this country believe George was guilty of something and the majority are not against tighting gun laws….the South is a problem however, sorry to say because I grew up in the deep south most will use their guns as a last resort but don’t seem to understand that people like GZ use it as their first resort. I’m still trying to figure out why call NEN on Trayvon in the first place he wasn’t doing anything anyone else would have been arrested for making nuisance calls. To the PD.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          “dial back the SYG laws make it harder to carry a weapon”

          That’s definitely an important issue and one many of us will be working on.

  24. Thrace says:

    Vinnie on HLN interviewed the prosecution team. They are releasing clips of it this morning – full interview tonight at 10pm. One piece of news that came from it – John Guy is handling the case against Shellie. Oh, I want to see that so bad when it goes to trial.

  25. MDH says:

    That kind of stuff needs to stop unless the wicked feel enabled to get stronger.

    This song should be the motto for all people against those who feel denigrating diversity is “funny”.

  26. Malisha says:

    MDH, it was worse than calling a middle-eastern coworker “Ahab the Arab.” He called him “Ahmed the Terrorist.” That guy should have been on the stand after Olivia Bertalan testified! It is pretty obvious now that, because of the refusal of the prosecution to put on ANY REBUTTAL AT ALL, the whole thing was a big charade and they deliberately threw the case.

    • concernedczen says:

      Yes, it was a charade and the prosecution and judge were part of it.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Yes Malisha, it was as if a seasoned NBA basketball star, in the prime of his career, lost a game of pick up basketball to a junior varsity player. The jury decided nothing because, the evidence they needed to make a fair decision was withheld from them. The “trial” was a complete and utter sham, gz faced no jeopardy at all!

      The evidence that gz was in the process of committing the crime of stalking, then escalated to battery, then to assault with a deadly weapon and murder, was withheld from the jury. It was not presented to them as the fact it was and is, so that these people not versed in the law, could properly evaluate the charge before them.

      I wonder if this trial can be appealed on the grounds that it was not a real trial? Could a suit be brought to overturn it and have it ruled a mistrial? Stalking is a crime and so is assault and battery, if the jury is given the facts to rule on these crimes, there would be no claim of self defense possible.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Got an email today, very funny:

        “Obama will say trial over, so sad, bad verdict, so sorry can do nothing” Then call will go to secret agency. American James Bond Dude heads for Florida.

        Zimmerman very happy, talk, talk, talk, big money!

        One day Zimmerman says “James Bond Dude following me worry. worry. worry.”

        They say: “No such thing as James Bond Dude George, does not exist, but we understand… big pressure, losing mind!

        No, no, no, James Bond Dude is real, I see him again this morning!

        No, gov’t no do that, losing mind under big pressure.

        Next day headlines: Zimmerman have horrible accident, doctors working around the clock, stay tuned, news at 11.
        Of course this is silly, I deleted the email immediately but, it sure did give me a laugh.

  27. MDH says:

    Those of us in the white community also need to stand up to those who use sick humor or other BS to denigrate the humanity of Black people.

    Look what happened with the Arab American who was being called “Ahab the Arab” by GZ. The other workers let that go one.

    I would have been all up in GZ’s face in a heartbeat, if I had seen that shit go on.

    • concernedczen says:

      He was being called Achmed the terrorist

    • Judy75201 says:

      I’m with you.

    • riisey007 says:

      MDH, you are so right. They let that man be harrassed and no one said anything and I am quite sure had he testified O’mara would have just brought some racist co worker with an ax to grind in to say that the co worker was a liar blah blah blah. This man came forward to let people know that yes! Zimmerman is a racist but no one cared. The African American neighbors who talked about Zimmerman making them so uncomfortable that they didn’t feel safe walking in the community. It was just so many people that he offended but yet, the way the SPD and company corrupted this whole case they did not even try and help or address those peoples concern. We need to put a stop to people like him. The verdict is allowing people to get away with being racist and acting racist. .

  28. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    We need to have discussions with our children and grandchildren to inform them of the dire conditions building up as witnessed by this case, the gutting of the 1965 Voting Rights Act by the Supreme Court, the huge push being made by many states to reinforce their states’ rights, and the challenges to Affirmative Action in college admissions.

    Unfortunately, the song’s line “The past is just a good-bye” is definitely not true right now. The clock is being turned back

  29. LiveByTheGulf says:

    My take as viewing the trial:
    1) Why did the defense go on and on, and the prosecution spend little time questioning witnesses.
    2) Why wasn’t there some penalty for Donnelly not obeying the Judge’s instruction to stay out of the courtroom.
    3) Why didn’t the court realize that witnesses collaborated to get their stories straight when they aided the person creating the animation.
    4) Why did the prosecution let MOM get by with SLAMMING the dummy into the floor over and over – when that scenario did not fit testimony.
    5) How could the evidence locker suddenly seize up so the prosecution had to change the order of their last two witnesses – so that Trayvon’s mother was not last.
    6) Why did it feel like the prosecution was throwing the case – we kept waiting for the prosecution’s surprise.
    7) Why didn’t the two rebuttal witnesses show up at the end? They would have testified to fogen’s agressive tendencies. Could those witnesses refuse to appear? It seemed very strange.
    8) Why would fogen say that “If I had to do it all over again, I would do the same”? This statement tells me that Zimmerman will kill again; and fogen really “believes” that Trayvon was a thug (hood). Do they still use the word “hood” to describe a thug.
    A normal person would have wished to avoid all this trouble for himself & his family.
    9) Why was West able to mouth “F*ck ***” to the Judge as she was leaving without some kind of penalty? Remember during the Casey Anthony trial when a person gave the prosecution the finger and was thrown out of the courtroom. They used courtroom cameras to verify. Yet when Trayvon’s father mouthed “no” to the question of was that Trayvon’s voice during the police investigation – that “no” was testified to.
    10) Why wasn’t it emphasized: Why would you be yelling for your life, if you had a gun in your hands?
    11) How did they ever end up with a jury of six women? Why didn’t the prosecution realize that a conservative would vote “Not Guilty” and get liberals on the jury. The JN is conservative. You know that MOM is conservative – with a part in his hair near the middle-top of his head. I’ve found that no amount of evidence will sway a conservative from their “values”.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Yes, LiveByTheGulf, why NOT?

      • LiveByTheGulf says:

        I didn’t get your comment: Why NOT ?????

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:

          I was in total agreement with your post.

          Those are definitely questions that should be asked!

          I should have worded my reply better:

          Yes, I agree…why DIDN’T they do those things.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            Why did they do those things.

            Can’t seem to get this right grammatically…..I’m off to get a cup of coffee.

  30. http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/editorials/2013/07/13/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-verdict-editorials-debates/2515089/

    Trayvon Martin’s story lost: Our view
    The Editorial Board, 7:26 p.m. EDT July 14, 2013
    The prosecution failed to refute George Zimmerman’s story of self-defense.

    For many who closely followed the trial of George Zimmerman, the verdict of not guilty spurred fury, heartache and, by Sunday, protests across the country. But the outcome should not have come as a surprise. Zimmerman’s attorneys managed to undermine the prosecution’s narrative that their client was the aggressor who followed Trayvon Martin and killed him with no justification. And the prosecution — which had the burden of proof — was unable to effectively refute Zimmerman’s story of self-defense.

    OTHER VIEWS: ‘The jury got this one right’

    But somewhere between Martin’s death 17 months ago in a gated community near Orlando and Saturday night’s verdict, the story line that matters the most largely got lost. It’s a tragically familiar tale of snap judgments by strangers, racial profiling and a black teenager’s needless death. And it’s the reason the trial attracted national attention and gavel-to-gavel coverage in the first place.

    The verdict deserves to be respected and, as President Obama said Sunday, it should also serve as a reason for calm reflection.

    Zimmerman’s successful defense depended on getting jurors to focus on the fight that occurred just before he shot the 17-year-old, unarmed Martin, and not on the events that preceded it. The lawyers established doubt about which man screamed for help, as well as other details of the confrontation — holes that invited an acquittal under Florida’s laws.

    But the fact remains that Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer and cop wanna-be, instantly identified Martin as a “(expletive) punk” who “looks like he’s up to no good.” The fact remains that Martin was doing nothing wrong; he was returning from a snack run at a convenience store, heading for the house of his father’s girlfriend. And the fact remains that had Zimmerman stayed in his truck, as advised by the police, Martin would be alive today.

    Those facts — and the authorities’ initial failure to charge Zimmerman — inflamed the black community. African Americans saw the case in a way that the jury of six women, five of them white and the other of uncertain ethnicity, probably couldn’t. Despite all the nation’s progress in burying its racist past, minorities are commonly stopped by authorities — or viewed by strangers as “up to no good” — for no other reason than the color of their skin.

    Consider New York City’s “stop and frisk” policy, which allows officers to search anyone they see as suspicious: In 2011, 87% of those stopped were minorities. Or the shooting of three black men who did nothing more than venture into a white New Orleans community days after Hurricane Katrina. Or try to find an African-American man who hasn’t been stopped for “driving while black” or eyed suspiciously in a department store.

    The Justice Department said Sunday it will weigh criminal civil rights charges against Zimmerman, as urged by the NAACP and others. That course would be satisfying on one level, presumably addressing the actions that led to the fight. But it’s no slam dunk. It raises fairness issues, and the case is too narrow to serve as an instrument for righting the racial inequities of the justice system, so long in need of attention.

    Zimmerman’s fate was determined as it should have been, based on the evidence in a court of law, not the court of public opinion. But just because a verdict is legally justified doesn’t make it morally satisfying. Trayvon Martin’s death remains an avoidable American tragedy — one that Zimmerman set in motion.

    USA TODAY’s editorial opinions are decided by its Editorial Board, separate from the news staff. Most editorials are coupled with an opposing view — a unique USA TODAY feature.

  31. MDH says:

    Aren’t BDLR and Corey Republican?

    Is it not in the interest of the Republican Party to put on a trial wherein “reasonable” people in the media conclude that the prosecution did not have a case so that POC get pissed off such that the Republicans can play the “black always use the race card” BS?

    We have all seen the evidence and put together a solid case. So our ire is justifiable.

    I am beginning to see things that trouble me.

    For example, why, if they really wanted to win, did the prosecution not bring in a trauma surgeon to back up the coroners claim that GZ could not move or speak?

    One would damn well know that the defense would bring in a paid shill to cast doubt?

    However, a shot wound forensic expert does not trump a trauma surgeon.

    Then we have the use of force expert.

    His testimony was beyond lame to anyone in the gym or fight community.

    However, it went unchecked by the prosecution not proving testimony by one of their experts.

    For example, it is incredible how many bruises and lumps one gets on their forearms from just light contact sparring.

    His stupid remark about muscle tone and athleticism is easily debunked by sports science. I have been going to gym for 30 years and the strongest men most often do not look very athletic or have a ripped tone. In fact, getting to a low BF percentage makes one weaker in that they do about one to two weeks on a severe Atkins diet.

    My point is that anything left unchecked becomes an avenue for those on the jury to confirm bias they already have in their heart.

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      Earlier I mentioned it is the NWO and Illuminate running this show….

    • MollyK says:

      Very early in the case I was posting questions about whether GZ was a gym rat. Although he was pudgy, he was very coordinated and moved like a fit person. Watch him get out of the police car that night and walk through the station.

      • MollyK says:

        I spent many years studying ballet seriously and I can tell when someone has had some kind of training. When my sons took Tae Kwon Do (both earned junior black belts), I could tell how kids would rank in the tournaments even though I knew nothing about TKD. Movement is movement.

      • MDH says:

        Non gym rats focus on the upper body. IMO, his wheelhouse (legs) looked pretty solid.

      • MDH says:

        Fit and body fat percentage are not one and the same as you so aptly have observed.

        George Foreman carried quite a bit of adipose during his after age 40 comeback, but carried himself pretty well.

    • MDH says:


      It is also a tell as to the real reason for his acquittal. There is a significant portion of our population who deem the mere existence of a black male a threat to their safety. And if the threat gets to close, then one has the right to kill it.

    • MollyK says:

      I am stunned that even RZ could be so obtuse! The only possible explanation is that he (they) consider black children sub-human.

    • MollyK says:

      I don’t want anyone to kill GZ, but I do want him to live the rest of his life in fear and terror. The way Trayvon’s life ended.

    • MDH says:

      His comments about saving Black children by mentoring before the child “goes bad” reminds me of how white society justified taking the children of American Indians.

      “Kill the Indian, and save the man”

      So I guess T went bad and had to be killed. If only GZ had been his mentor.

      A very sick bunch, the Zimmerman clan be.

  32. Malisha says:

    At the end of the defense case, I was so disoriented by the fact that the prosecution wasn’t putting on rebuttal (I really expected their MAIN CASE to come on in rebuttal, contrary to the usual method of trying a criminal case, but the reason I expected that was that the usual criminal case finds the police on the PROSECUTION’s side and in this case the police were on the DEFENSE side, so obviously it was sickening) that I didn’t really concentrate on the major problem in the case, now, in retrospect: Olivia Bertalan as a witness.

    The background fact that should have come in — with the defense objecting of course that it was not relevant — was that it was NOT TRUE that RTL was a high-crime neighborhood. I learned that this complete fabrication (thanks to SPD and Frances Robles) was used to justify Fogen’s conduct, even before he killed Trayvon Martin. The police and people like Bertalan were encouraging Fogen (perhaps because of their own sick fantasies, perhaps because they’re just hostile or racist, who knows) to “run herd on the undesirables” in the neighborhood.

    The background could have been blocked as “prior bad acts” right up until the moment when the defense put Olivia Bertalan on the stand. The fact that the prosecution did not object is bizarre. She was not a witness. If this case were NOT a clear appeal to racists to forgive the actions of another racist who chose to kill a Black kid to make a point in his lily-white world, and/or to help him get it up when he wanted to make a point with his lily-white wife (whatever), there would be no reason on God’s earth to put up a witness to testify, essentially, that “Black kids are criminals.”

    Once Bertalan testified, then obviously the following rebuttals would have been absolutely admissible and should have gone on for days at least, possibly for weeks:

    Every single crime listed in the police rolls for the prior year should have had the crime victim or complaining witness up on that stand for the prosecution’s rebuttal and every single police report of each of those crimes should have been up there;

    Olivia Bertalan’s background should have been up there and every complaint SHE had made to the police, to insurance companies, to her employers, etc.;

    Every resident who had ever been to an HOA meeting should have been up there;

    Jeremy should have been up there;

    Ibrahim Rashada should have been up there; his wife should have been up there;

    Emmanuel Burgess should have been habeas corpus up there from prison (JN sentenced him so obviously it could have been arranged) to testify about what he pled to, and which houses he had burglarized, and what he knew of Fogen;

    The stucco guys should have been up there;

    The construction teams should have been up there that reported a copper pipe stolen that was listed as a “burglary” by the police;

    Property management at RTL should have been up there;

    Fogen’s landlord should have been up there;

    Every other person in RTL who had ever called the police in the last three years should have been up there.

    THAT is a rebuttal. They brought in the testimony that the neighborhood feared Black kids for a good reason? The neighborhood feared FOGEN for a good reason. THAT’s REBUTTAL.

    Even if the jury was fraudulent, that kind of a rebuttal would have made a public record out of State versus Zimmerman.

    Now we see why the State botched this case: THEY DID NOT WANT a public record made of what happened in Sanford, Florida. Because the whole town murdered Trayvon Martin.

    • Malisha says:

      It reminds me of a case in Maryland in 2002.

      There had been one of those custody cases where the children alleged that they had been molested by their father so the courts had immediately decided the mother made them disclose false allegations because she was a vindictive b*tch, and gave custody to the father. But in this case, mom was a lawyer and had money (and was what I might call quite assertive herself, something that is uncommon in that scenario) and it turned into a very VERY big wrangle. The guardian ad litem appointed by the court was super duper friendly with the father and HE was himself very much “in” with the social services folks and he was reportedly a foster father — no mention of any foster mothers in his home — and when I met him, I detected the faint “eau de pedophile” in his relationships to the two little clients, who were attractive kids, very sweet.

      Anyway that’s beside the point. He socialized with the dad and openly violated attorney client privilege with the mom’s lawyers and things got very — smarmy. Then the mom’s friend crept into the dad’s house and alleged that she was going to “plant kiddie porn” so that an investigation would open against him, but she carried a handgun with her, and in a tussle, she shot the dad in the leg and the mom was charged (as was the shooter) with conspiracy to murder. Dad survived adn there was a trial and a successful appeal (because mom’s lawyer testified against her in violation of the canon of ethics) and another trial and a conviction.

      In the midst of all this, the original allegations of sexual abuse played a role in that the prosecution said the mother’s motive was to kill the guy because she had made false allegations of sexual abuse against him, whereas the shooter said her OWN motive was to protect the children from sexual abuse.

      The judge did not allow evidence of the sexual abuse of the kids, however, even though “false allegations of sexual abuse” was referred to repeatedly by the prosecution and was all over the press, which covered the trial.

      NOW, I bring this up for the following reason: IF there was no sexual abuse, the mother’s seemingly false allegations (it was still not proven that she did anything other than believe the kids’ own disclosures) were possibly a motive. BUT IF there WAS sexual abuse, the father’s allegations that the mother had to have been behind the friend’s home invasion and handgun violence would become somewhat questionable because after all, he would have been shown to be a liar, and his credibility, as a sexual offender (with custody of his children BECAUSE he had abused them) would have been destroyed. The ONLY testimony that the mother was behind the acts of the friend came from the father; nobody else could possibly have known anything, and the shooter herself denied it, and claimed responsibility for her own acts herself.

      SO. If there is evidence that Olivia Bertalan was victimized by young Blacks who looked (to her? to Shellie? Fogen was not present) like Trayvon, and IF that means that the neighborhood was being victimized by hordes of young Blacks, and IF that means that Fogen was correct to profile Trayvon, and IF that is evidence that Fogen did NOT murder or manslaughter Trayvon Martin (still do not understand the logic of THAT PART), then obviously evidence that says that hordes of young Blacks did NOT victimize the neighborhood would be just as admissible and certainly would be extremely important, in deciding the issue of guilt or innocence. RIGHT?

    • uhoh says:

      Malisha, at this point I’m thinking someone has some serious dirt on Corey or Bernie. The prosecution could have put up the guys from the car chase spitting episode up as rebuttal. I really don’t think they wanted to win this case.

      • Carmen says:

        I completely agree!

      • Momma says:

        I don’t have any where near the depth of knowledge that is on this board, but I do live in Florida and my job exposes me somewhat to Florida politics. I think that it may have more to do with the fact that they are all a part of the Republican Party machine here. Our Governor, Rick Scott, has had extremely low approval ratings (33%) throughout his term, but they have recently gone up 7% and he has a reelection battle on his hands where he still trails potential opponents by 10%. They have circled the wagons.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I agree with you, Malisha.

      While I loved Mr. Guy’s closing and thought it was FABULOUS in driving home that there was ill will and rage within gz’s heart and, more importantly, that Trayvon was filled with the nightmare fear of being followed first by car and then on foot by a creepy, total stranger, Mr. Guy should have rebutted key points of the defense.

      I was also disappointed that BLDR did not patiently present in an orderly, CLEAR manner how gz pulled down Trayvon’s sweatshirt, clearing the button as he shot Trayvon.

      Instead, BLDR basically said MAYBE he did and he sloppily based that on showing how the string on Trayvon’s hoodie was pulled all the way down on the right side of the hoodie. He didn’t even check the 7-11 video which I did immediately and which I imagine the jury did. That string was already hanging down on the right side of Trayvon’s hoodie at the 7-11. (You can see that when Trayvon bends forward to dig in his pocket for his money.)

      What was the rush that caused BLDR during the presentation of his case not to take all the time needed to prove (as shown in LLMPapa’s video) that gz would have passed the supposed meeting up point with Trayvon while gz was still on the phone with NEN?

      I kept thinking that it must be because they would drive that point in later.

      I know there is a limit on how much a jury can process and later deliberate on without becoming dizzy, confused, and sidetracked.

      Anyway, those are two key points that IMO could have been more carefully presented to the jury.

    • dianetrotter says:

      I couldn’t figure out what Bertalan had to do with the case. She was just providing an excuse for his actions. I’m glad DOJ will be looking at trial also.

    • Jasmine says:

      Thank You! What the defense said was ‘hey some Black teens were doing break-in therefore Trayvon is automatically guilty’. I don’t know why this wasn’t objected to but after hearing that I knew ‘the fix was in’.

      • Malisha says:

        Not ONLY automatically guilty, but sentenced to immediate death without appeal or due process! This case is the doorway through which our culture passes on its way to absolute and unrestrained tyranny.

  33. trina cosbie says:

    Sorry let me repost!! This should make your day brighter!!

  34. trina cosbie says:

    This should make your day a lil http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMOcZQ5d60wbrighter!!! 🙂 🙂

  35. Jun says:

    All that’s gonna happen is he is gonna be bugged by millions of people for the rest of his life and there will be a percentage who will off him

    That’s about it

    It’s a sad reality

  36. Jun says:

    I dont think the feds are gonna do anything

  37. Big Willie says:

    I was profiled earlier this evening!

    After laying around the house all day (saddened by the unjust verdict), I decided to throw on some clothes and drive to Starbucks for a latte. The hispanic male barista called-out my order, looked at me with disgust, shook his head and said “so, are they still protesting down there and tearing up the city?”. I was a littlle confused at first and shocked … I then realized, I had on a hoodie, jeans and sneakers. I didn’t bother to respond and left. I’m kicking myself for not being sharper and responding quicker.

    • Go back and complain to his manager or write starbucks a letter. A similar situation like this happened to me about 3 months ago at a restaurant and the manager felt remorseful and took a huge percentage off of my bill. In addition, the employee was dealt with.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        White House Petition now has 28,000 signatures. according to WH rules, over 100k signatures requires the W H to respond. While merely reaching this threshold usually obtains some tepid response by some agency to whom the issue is delegated, going waay over seems to get the Presidents attention.

        Because it’s a national site, it requires “national numbers” to gather and show political “juice” sense politicians are quick to jump on fast moving bandwagons. Let’s keep all these “bandwagon” petitions moving as fast as we can. If you feel as sick as I do over this, it would certainly help to see the numbers roll into the millions, eh?

        After all, there isn’t much more we can do that is as visible and proactively demonstrable as to push these publicly viewable petitions to the sky and beyond. Right now the numbers are dismal, 500k here and 28k there, it’s as though most people favor business as usual. What else could anyone think if you can’t get millions of people to spread the word and simply click on a button?

    • Malisha says:

      No Starbucks employee should be allowed to keep his job after saying that to a customer. Starbucks is a good company. Complain about this immediately. I am telling my local Starbucks what happened in YOURS. This is not just an outrage, it is a serious problem that needs to be dealt with by management NOW.

    • Malisha says:

      GO TO Starbucks’ “contact us” line and let them know about this:


      Write your story under “inspired moments: tell us your starbucks story”

      Folks: that’s where to register information about this mistreatment of Big Willie

    • Carmen says:

      I hope he was not Mexican because GZ does not like Mexicans. Next time remind that his people were part of the protest as well.

  38. KateW says:

    Wrong is wrong and that verdict was plain wrong. I am ashamed for which the country I live where justice and the judicial system failed miserably and the hags in that jury box already had a verdict beforehand. How did they fail a kid who just wanted to get home. Plague on their houses for such atrocities against all victims of crime. Caylee Anthony, Chavis Carter, Trayvon Martin, Marissa Alexander, and many many many more!! Shame on our justice system. Shame on the state of Florida for such blatant atrocities and miscarriages of justice.

    Shame on those women!

  39. Cercando Luce says:

    How can we recite the pledge of allegiance after this case?

    “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America,
    and to the Republic for which it stands.
    One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”

    Trayvon’s liberty? Justice for Trayvon? “Indivisible”– a jury approves defendant’s robbing Trayvon of liberty AND his life by denying justice, thus dividing the USA into those who can recite the Pledge without a care, and those who are shut out from liberty and justice.

    “One nation divided, with liberty and justice? For some, not at all.”

  40. riisey007 says:

    Damn I am learning that Florida has a SYG immunity clause that you are safe from a civil suit if you claim SYG and are found not guilty. I am not going back to Florida again. I have never seen such.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      He didn’t claim SYG remember. GZ opted out of the SYG or immunity hearing. I hope the professor will chime in on this one.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      Checked it out. Pre-trial hearing is required.

      Dennis v. State, 51 So. 3d 456 (Fla. 2010): Pre-Trial Evidentiary Hearing is Required for Motions to Dismiss Raising Immunity From Prosecution Under Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” Statute, Section 776.032


    • Malisha says:

      It’s totally unconstitutional and needs to be taken up to the US Supreme Court as a test case and vacated completely wherever it is found, rooted out like a toxic weed. Think of it: it equates civil liability with criminal responsibility. Therefore, if a person is let go under the SYG law because he was standing his ground, the employer (for instance) who hired him cannot be sued for the death of perhaps 120 people who were negligently killed because he shot a bus driver? Imagine!

  41. riisey007 says:

    Mark Garagos said he had never seen investigators work so hard for a defense ever, he said in fact he will go to his grave and never see it again. He said the prosecution should have seen that coming because Florida is the only state where you have the witness deposition first. He said Florida is a different kind of place. He said they go into court armed with a lot of extra paperwork. He said shame on prosecution and he said when Serino was asked if he believe Zimmerman the prosecution should have objected but they sat on their hands.

    • crazy1946 says:

      riisey007, Mark Garagos is typical of a fence sitter, he was pro-defense up until the conviction and now he gets to play the other side of the fence! Too bad people fall for that type of individual! My how easy, after the trial is all over, to say how you would have tried the case and that you would have won! The fact is simple, he did not control the case, he did not win and he wants attention that he did not earn…… He is just another leach sucking blood from another victim that he helped destroy thru his attitudes and actions……

      • roderick2012 says:

        Crazy, you may be correct about Garagos but you have agree that the State not objecting until the morning about Serino giving his opinion on George’s story was beyond bizarre–it was incompetence at it’s highest level.

        The State allowed the jurors to sleep on Serino’s opinion then they attempted to undo the damage.

  42. riisey007 says:

    Finally!!! I am so glad that I decided to watch Anderson 360. The panel on there actually said that they felt like Serino and Singleton testified for the defense and that they were very shady and they felt that there was a coverup. Thank goodness at least we all know we are not crazy and we actually saw what we saw. Mark Garagos,He pissed me off during the trial and I never thought much of him but he broke down the racism and how race was brought in it from the beginning and that when the prosecution got the jury that they got they needed to jump right on that. He said the 911 tape should have been focused on more, he said if you have a jury of 5 white women who basically could not identify with a black child you have to bring them out of that prism of understanding that they are used ot having. He said he doesn’t care who you are, you can not convince people who have been alive 30 or 40 years or more in 10 days so you have to capitalize. He said the prosecution had too many good witnesses that they could have used and they should have used. He basically was saying the jury was rigged because they were all white women. I realized that he was highly critical of the prosecution because he thought that the prosecution messed the case up plain and simple. He said there was plenty that thy could have done to force the jury to make the right decision no matter what their pre-conceived notions are. I Mark Garagos said that the system is very unfair to AA men and he says he sees it all the time and that is why the case should have been handled differently.

    • TheUsualSuspects says:

      I saw that, too. The panel seemed to believe that Serino and Singleton, through their testimony, represented SPD getting back at the State Attorney’s Office for pulling rank. They all said they’d never seen an investigator intentionally tank a prosecution’s case by vouching for the defendant.

      • dianetrotter says:

        Hope DOJ is catching all of this. I saw it too. Throughout the trial I thought geragos was a GZ supporter.

        • riisey007 says:

          I thought he was a Zimmerman supporter too but I see now that he was pissed at the fact that the prosecution did not do their jobs.

    • KateW says:

      Been saying from the get go they covered up. How does a coward give you several different stories but yet they are trustworthy?? YOu take him back to the scene of the crime to help him get it all straight. Get him a good look at those short stumpy bushes you claim this 5’11 158lb kid jumped out of? So now the stories change but yet this dude is soooo credible. They were trying to save their own asses because they didn’t do what they were supposed to do. No drug test, they did not impound his vehicle, Serino was often leading the witness and GIVING him statements. Telling him this is you. You this and that. WTF kind of detective is that that feeds this suspect lines???

      The prosecution should have ripped him a new one, and I feel that is another area they just kind of did nothing.

      I am starting to see the prosecution during trial didnt really put up much of a fight. They let Omara talk and talk and West harass and they did sit on their hands. So disgusted when I think about it! If they didn’t want to do the case, then they should have said so and let someone else take over.

      But no matter how they did, a fixed jury and the killer’s supporters on the panel would trump anything they did. I keep saying one or some of those jurors were in on it and they came ready with a not guilty verdict.

    • Jun says:

      I actually agree with Garagos

      The case they put on was not anything I expected

      No objections

      Acting like sissy willows when the defense objects

      No motions to suppress those ridiculous photoshop pictures

      No motion to suppress the bloody head photo

      So many witnesses not used, which would have painted the picture of the profiling and stalking

      No timeline and theory

      No using the witnesses together to show that Fogen confronted Trayvon

      No use of forensics or ballistics

      Purposely not using Fogen’s statements not done, and then repeatedly objecting omara on grounds of hearsay not done

      This would work in Canada, but purport that the victim has a presumption of innocence and must prove burden to their alleged infractions of Trayvon for their affirmative defense

      Charge and convict fogen of aggravated stalking to nullify parts of the self defense law and the SYG law

      Argue harder during jury selection regarding the rights of the victim and the undue prejudice against the victim from the jurors

      Argue to a higher court when a preemptory strike was not allowed

      Rehabilitate black jurors

      Argue the jury instructions better

      Argue the audio experts in better or even use a higher court to reroute the evidence back in

      Plan the sequence of witnesses better to paint the story

      Make fun of Omara’s cartoon and tell them it is fantasy forensics

      Have Crump’s PR repeatedly lambast Fogen in the media of his history

      Prepare a rebuttal

      use the character evidence for the doors opened

      Use Mantai more to research legal precedents

      Had Angela Corey prosecute as well

      Object on all of West’s leading and speculation

      Remind the jury that Fogen was a stranger to all the witnesses and residents, and also to Trayvon was simply a creepy stalker pursuing him at night time, armed with a car, flashlight and a gun

      Remind jury that the defense admits that Fogen was tailing Trayvon by car

      I am basing everything on things I learned here, my experience in courts, my research on the charters and constitution and challenges to it

      Do not even bother using Serino or Singleton

      Should have confronted the cops on their prior inconsistent statements

      After having multiple witnesses testify that the screams were that of a boy and it ended with a gun shot, play the tape with audio experts

      Use the grass stains on both parties to forensically show positions in the struggle

      Argue Trayvon’s right to stand his ground which nullifies Fogen’s self defense claim further

      I watched parts of it and were like WTF, after learning how to use rules of evidence and objection and it was not being utilized

      Explain to jury reasons for objections and why they are needed in seeking the truth

      Place the jury in Trayvon’s shoes

      Create an animation of the crime and back it with forensics and statements

      Argue that Fogen not going to Target to go after Trayvon shows intent

      Argue negligence

      Cross the hell out of all the defense witnesses and prepared for them ahead of time

  43. Dee says:

    This will not be the last kid they kill now they’re calling it the Zimmerman law. What kind of mess it this. How can this country believe that something like this is right, this is America, and their killing our children again.


  44. AC says:

    I think you and I just look at things differently. I also watched the entire trial, read all the discovery, looked up Florida’s statutes on self defense, etc., and I always believed that Zimmerman’s actions were condoned under Florida’s laws. I just don’t find the verdict unbelievable or a travesty. The jurors were taking notes, were very engaged, and took their jobs seriously. I think after careful deliberation, they saw what I initially saw, which is that the evidence does support Zimmerman’s self defense claim.

    Also, I think it’s harsh to say that Serino and Singleton “vouched” for Zimmerman. They were under oath, and it was O’Mara who drew out favorable information about Zimmerman through his questioning. Some of the things Serino said also looked bad for Zimmerman; on the stand, Serino said many times that he didn’t think Zimmerman’s actions were that great. With all the witnesses, the defense scored some points, the prosecution scored some points, but at the end of the day the prosecution failed to put forth a solid case.

    Anyways, I hope people can just live with the verdict. Getting the DOJ to pounce on Zimmerman after so many people have already practically ruined this man’s life is just ridiculously vindictive and petty in my opinion.

    • cielo62 says:

      AC – it seems you’ve wandered onto the wrong site. You want the Conservative Tree House. Here we dissected every bit of available evidence and found a strong case against Zimmerman from the very beginning of his NEN call. It was manslaughter the minute that dickless coward left his truck. You want to believe he’s innocent, fine. But don’t donut here.


      • AC says:

        Actually, I got banned from The Conservative Treehouse for not being supportive enough of Zimmerman.

        • Malisha says:

          You shouldn’t have been. You’re supportive enouogh. Perhaps you didn’t send enough money. Put your money where your mouth is and maybe they’ll let you back in. 😆

    • Marsha says:

      I did all those things as well. I came to a different conclusion. I am white, I don’t know the Martins, I don’t know George Zimmerman, I live in the Northeast, and I have never been to Sanford. I have no reason to be biased against Zimmerman. But I care passionately about justice and something is wrong when a man shoots an unarmed child to death and isn’t arrested and isn’t given a blood test and when the police pronounce him ‘squeaky clean’ when he has a record, not the victim. As the evidence was released, I studied it. I watched the trial. My conclusion is that this verdict was not just and I am heartsick. And he ruined his own life.

      • AC says:

        I am not white, and I also care passionately about the truth, which is why I became interested in learning all that I could about this case.

        • aussie says:

          Well, AC, you’ve come to the right place for truth. While none of us here agree with it, your first post here was calm, balanced and had some good observations. So I’ll talk with you.

          You say you looked up the Florida statutes. Here we had the benefit of having them explained and backed up with case law, by a a lawyer with a lifetime experience, both as defence lawyer and later as teacher. Professor Leatherman is not liked at CTH, mostly because of his support for Trayvon. His credentials are excellent.

          So — one important factor in using deadly force for self defence is, there must be a reasonable fear of death or serious injury. That means a fear based on good reason. For example a paranoid person’s fears would not count as reasonable. You can’t shoot a clown because you have a phobia about clowns.

          GZ’s injuries were minor, nowhere near enough to cause a reasonable fear.. Forget the 20 – 30 head bashings on concrete. The physical evidence showed 2 tiny scratches, a bump at the side and some blood ion the tip of the nose. He wasn’t injured enough for the EMT to insist on taking him to hospital; he repeatedly said in the police station that he’s ok and doesn’t want treatment/ He went to his doctor in the morning for a note for work, and refused to go to a speciaist or have an xray. The PA told him the required treatment was soap and water on the scratches.

          GZ claimed that after his nose got broken, Trayvon tried to pinch his nose and push down on his mouth to smother him. The forensic evidence showed none of his blood or DNA on Trayvon’s hands or sleeves. Surely he’d have picked up at least some saliva. But nothing. So there’s no forensic evidence to link him to GZ’s minor injuries at all.

          That’s the crux of the issue. Minor injuries, not caused by the victim. So no reasonable cause for fear. So no self-defence. Being a wimp is not a reason to kill someone.

          Who started it, their relative backgrounds and histories etc we’ll talk about if you come back and are interested. But the main issue is, no physical evidence of serious injury and no physical evidence of TM causing it. So nothing to self-defend himself against.

          • AC says:

            Yeah, I really only occasionally browse through CTH. They booted me from their forums for criticizing West’s cross examination of Jeantel; they’re pretty diehard over there.

            It is true that GZ didn’t have major injuries (though I wouldn’t want my nose to look the way his did that night), but during the trial, it was mentioned several times that the extent of your injuries are irrelevant when it comes to claiming self defense. O’Mara even said in his closing argument that you can have zero injuries and claim self defense. Further, when West cross-examined the JAG attorney who was Zimmerman’s former professor, he agreed that if you’ve already received one injury, that’s good reason to believe that more are on the way. I personally never thought it was a good route for the prosecution to minimize the extent of Zimmerman’s injuries considering that he doesn’t even have to have any to claim self defense. Plus, to an extent, I think it can come off as callous.

            I also found that while I came into the trial somewhat confident that Zimmerman’s actions were justifiable under the law, during the trial the defense did a great job of practically proving Zimmerman’s self defense claims with their experts. For example, Di Maio did a good job of showing that while Zimmerman’s injuries weren’t major, they were nothing to take lightly. For example, Di Maio stated that the police really shouldn’t have fooled around with his head injuries and they should have rushed him to the emergency room whether he wanted it or not. Di Maio also showed that Martin was indeed leaning over someone, presumably Zimmerman, at the moment that he was shot. One other thing the defense showed that I missed in the discovery was Martin’s grass stained pants, which show that he was straddling over someone. In combination with John Good’s testimony, where he revealed that he believes he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman and that Martin would not stop what he was doing even after Good yelled out to them, it confirms Zimmerman’s tale of being on his back on the ground, likely being beaten.

            I also found the defense’s use of force expert to be very beneficial to the defense. I found him to be credible and think that he went about investigating the decision in a manner that didn’t put too much weight on Zimmerman’s testimony. So I did respect his conclusion that Zimmerman had no other option under the circumstances he was in but to use deadly force.

            Over all, I think the prosecution didn’t have much of a case and the defense was able to actually clear up a lot of questions that I had going into the trial. The only mystery remaining to me is how they got from the T to where the body was found, but the prosecution couldn’t put up any evidence showing how they ended up there, so I wouldn’t be able to just assume that it’s because Zimmerman ran off to confront Martin.

            I’m interested on any other thoughts you have on the trial or any disagreements you have with the above observations I made. I haven’t really followed the case law, which would have been interesting. Maybe I’ll go back and take a look at the previous postings.

          • aussie says:

            AC, think about it.

            You have to have good reason to fear for your life or safety. Sure you don’t have to have any injuries. If someone climbs in through your bedroom window at 3 am you have reason to fear without injury. In a public street, the other party has to make some kind of credible threat, if not injure you then eg pull a gun on you, or a baseball bat or bicycle chain. Just being scared because you’re a wimp isn’t enough.

            Point one in this case is, GZ actually DID claim having his head bashed as his first reason to fear. Point two is, the injuries don’t add up to enough reason. The “next blow” idea is weird too. It would imply that someone can give you a light open hand slap across the face, and you could fear their next blow might be a 6 inch blade to the ribs? that is not REASONABLE and the law says it has to be REASONABLE, ie you need GOOD REASON for the fear, something that the reasonable person in the street would consider a good reason.

            In other words, the other party has to offer you a credible threat to your safety. Being already bashed, stabbed etc is a good credible reason. But his injuries were too minor for that, that is why they were “played down”. ALSO don’t forget there was forensic evidence to show TM had not touched him, so whatever injuries he had did not come from TM. It is impossible to smother someone, press down on their mouth while they scream for help, and not get at least saliva on your hands.

            GZ relied on the 20-30 head-bashes as his reason for fear. The medical and forensic evidence showed this could not have happened, and whatever injuries he had were not caused by TM. Arguments about not needing injuries are irrelevant, as there is also no evidence TM had offered him any other credible threat. He was unarmed and yapping on the phone to someone else.

            Simply it comes down to that you have to have something to be defending yourself against. Something serious enough to warrant deadly force in response. A few minor scrapes, NOT caused by the other party, just don’t cut it.

            Di Maio talked a lot of theory. There have been a small number of cases of people dying from internal head injuries, from an outwardly minor injury. However such a concussion usually shows on examination, eg pupil reaction, and the EMTs found GZ pupils (as well as other vitals eg pulse, BP etc) to be normal. GZ himself refused to go to hospital and next day refused an xray. If Di Maio is right, every kid who falls from a swing or trips playng backyard baseball needs to be rushed to hospital.

            Besides, we’re back into scared wimp territory. On this basis everyone lightly slapped with an open hand could fear he may be the 1 in a million who has a thin skull and will get internal bleeding. That is not the reasonable fear the law requires..

          • Dave says:

            AC is correct that GZ’s injuries are irrelevant in establishing reasonable fear of imminent. death or great bodily harm. I believe that THE critical question is whether the killer had that reasonable fear AT THE MOMENT THAT HE PULLED THE TRIGGER.

            The location of Trayvon’s body proves that at the moment the fatal shot was fired both Trayvon and Zimmerman were well away from the sidewalk. The only deadly weapon available was the killer’s gun which was always under his control. In order to avoid death or great bodily harm, all he had to do was maintain control of the weapon until help arrived. He did not have to aim it at his young victim’s heart and squeeze the trigger.

            The prosecution made a lot of mistakes, but not making this argument and repeatedly hammering it home was the biggest.

          • aussie says:

            Okay, let’s move on to leaning over.

            Di Maio based that on the hoodie being pulled down by the drink can in the front pouch/pocket… because the hole in the hoodie was higher up that the hole in TM’s chest. So he says TM must have been leaning over GZ.

            OKAY tell me this: if the tea can was pulling the hoodie down, how did it pull down the UNDERSHIRT? on which the hole was ALSO higher than the hole in the chest?

            The two clothing holes are perfectly aligned, both higher than the chest hole. This is just as easily explained by someone grabbing and dragging on BOTH items of clothing, eg to stop the victim from getting away.

            Grass on the knees or any other part of TMs pants?? he was lying face down in the wet grass, remember? against this consider GZ had wet grass on the FRONT of his boots, and none on the back (nor on the back of his pants or jacket).

            John Good changed his testimony 4 or 5 times. He went from TM on top with MMA blows, to not being sure who was yelling, to someone on top with arms down but no blows. ALSO he only saw 4 or 5 seconds of the wrestle. Other witnesses saw different 5 or 6 second slices of it. If 2 people are rolling around, they’ll change positions several times, so who was on top at any given moment proves nothing about 10 seconds earlier or later. Other witnesses saw the man the later recognised as GZ being on top, ESPECIALLY right at the time of the shooting.

            “..likely being beaten…” is wrong again. TM had NO GZ BLOOD OR DNA on his hands, arms or sleeves. A beating like GZ is claiming muist leave SOME trace transfer. There wasn’t any.

            Don’t forget, either, GZ had over a year solid MMA training, never mind he was supposedly not much good at it, he did have training which is a lot more than TM had. And he was 45 lbs heavier. Did he make any non-deadly attempt to save himself? none that anyone saw or that he ever claimed. On his story he lay there like a wet noodle for over a minute without lifting a finger to save himself, until he could get out the gun. Even though he had fight training.

            Did you listen to his statement to Serino? watch the “re-enactment” video? he said he grabbed TM’s arm, got “wrist control” on him, then aimed AROUND his hand to not shoot himself. If he’s got someone in a wrist lock that stops the other bashing him (he’d fall flat on his face if he kept trying) so the DANGER IS GONE. So no need to shoot. Especially with the police under a minute away.

          • aussie says:

            I agree the prosecution should have been clearer about the timelines. A lot clearer.

            But… the evidence was there that GZ was following TM by car and on foot. This was clear from Rachel’s evidence, that TM told her this. It is also clear from GZ”s own evidence in the form of the NEN call, when he followed by car from the mailboxes to the bend, then got out to run after him.

            He denies having followed any further. In the re-enactment he said he was “just going in the same direction” but in the NEN call he did declare “he ran” and “I don’t know where this kid is” which indicates he was STILL LOOKING.

            After getting the address (which he never gave to the dispatcher) he was walking back to his truck and got attacked at the T. He says. Never mentions going down the path. But he MUST HAVE because the body ended up 41 feet down the path. And so did GZ’s flashlight, and TM’s phone and the drink etc. It is highly unlikely the fight started at the T and they managed to CARRY all that stuff 41 feet away before dropping it. It is even more unlikely that GZ was knocked onto his back at the T and then carried 41 feet by TM. And even MORE unlikely they got teleported down there by space aliens.

            Plain and simple, from the debris field (and witness statements) the fight STARTED that 40 or so feet south of the T. It had to be GZ going down there on his own feet because there was no contact earlier anywhere else. If he was going straight back to his truck as he claimed, he had no business being down there. He’d only be down there if he was making a detour hoping to get sight of TM again.

            Why doesn’t he say anything about this? there was evidence he did very well in a class all about — SELF DEFENCE and the SYG laws. He would have learned that the aggressor cannot claim SYG. And he would have known following someone by car and on foot,and searching for them when you’ve lost them, is STALKING, ie being the aggressor. (Yep, you don’t have to follow for very long for it to count as stalking. All it needs is to be enough to cause fear or concern in the other party. Which we have Rachel’s evidence for. Or even without that, GZ’s own evidence that TM RAN as soon as he passed his truck.

            And GZ’s own evidence (interview with Serino) that he NEVER told TM who he is and by what right he’s following him or asking him questions, which may have set his mind at ease..

            It comes down to this: the fighting started where the body was found, 41 ft south of the T. Therefore GZ must have gone down there, otherwise he’d not BEEN there. His story of being attacked at the T cannot be true, because there’s no way from that they could have ended up where they did.

            Well, no forensic evidence to show TM ever touched him. But what if he did?? what if he DID?? someone who follows another by car and on foot for over 1/3 of a mile, in the dark, is creating a credible threat to that person’s safety. The victim is fully entitled to fear he is about to be robbed, mugged, or raped. And so fully entitled to Stand His Ground. The aggressor in such a situation is the one who followed — he is the one creating the credible threat to safety, even if he’s not the one to strike the first blow (back to your original story about not need any injury…. just a threat….remember?)

            So whether TM threw the first punch or not (and the forensics show he never did at all) the aggressor is GZ. The law says you can’t be the aggressor and then scream self-defence if you start losing the altercation you provoked. GZ learned all about this in his studies. That’s why he kept denying having done any following after the running recorded on the NEN call.

            TIMELINES from the NEN call (sadly not shown well by the prosecution) show that GZ would have been still on the phone to the dispatcher for over a minute after he got back to the T (from the address-hunt). If that is when he got attacked, the dispatcher would have heard it. Did he stand around in the dark and the rain for nearly 2 minutes? waiting to be attacked? and then they teleported 40 ft down the track?

            This is not X-Men. That was plenty of time for him to go down the path (or down RVC and back up a cut-through between buildings) just in time for when everyone heard the confrontation start.

            Another piece of magic would be required, for TM to be able to attack at the T. He last saw GZ in the truck. And ran and thought he’d lost him. Unless he had xray vision, he had no way to know GZ left the truck and walked along the T path. So how would he know where and when to lie in wait for him? Not really possible, is it?

            And who stands around yapping on the phone when they’re about to launch a stealth attack on someone? even if you totally discount Rachel’s evidence (which she could not be shaken on in 7 hours of cross-examination) even then, the phone records show his phone was in use at that time. It makes no sense.

            But it DOES make sense someone being sick of “these assholes always get[ting] away” and deciding to hold onto this one.

            He went down that path looking for TM because there is no other way he could have possibly gotten there.

          • There’s another problem with GZ’s story. TM would not have known what GZ looked like, since he did not see him outside of the truck.

            Therefore, he would not have had any reason to approach/ambush GZ at the T.

            At 7:15 on a Sunday night, GZ could have been an innocent resident.

            Of course, if you are going to ambush someone, you don’t approach, say something to them, and then throw a punch.

            GZ’s story was absurd.

        • mrsdoubtfire says:

          ” In combination with John Good’s testimony, where he revealed that he believes he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman and that Martin would not stop what he was doing even after Good yelled out to them, it confirms Zimmerman’s tale of being on his back on the ground, likely being beaten.”


          John Good says he saw the action for 10 seconds and that the figures moved up to the concrete. You are assuming that Zimmerman was suckerpunched and was in the inferior position throughout. That doesnt jive with his injuries or other witnesses who describe some sort of movement and struggle. And it certainly doesnt jive with the position of TM’s body. .If Zimmerman was telling the truth TM would have been found at or near the T not 30 feet away. Unless Z could shimmy 30 feet with TM on top of him.and presumably while being viciously beaten. You’d also have to believe that Z held on to his flashlight until he shimmied to John Good’s house and that he never tried to defend himself. Subsequently you’d have to believe that TM didnt drop his phone and earbuds until they moved that distance.

          Respectuflly the other important thing you are discounting is that Zimmerman didnt have his gun out. Or you accept his version of events that TM saw it while straddling him in the pitch black. I’d say that was impossible as is Z ‘s ability to overcome TM with a one handed wrist lock while with his free hand he gets that gun out from the waistband of his right hip…

          You would also have to discount why Zimmerman lied about so many things. I wont post the list. Im sure they are obvious to you.

        • aussie says:

          I must say I am very happy you came here, AC.

          [Any regulars disagreeing, please read on. AC is giving us an excellent view of how the other side saw the trial].

          You sound like a reasonable person and you didn’t just get your ideas about the case from the awful media.

          Your comments are a good display of confirmation bias which is how two people can see the same thing but attach opposite meanings to it, depending on their mental starting point. I am sure we are subject to that as much as you are.

          We had the benefit of good legal instruction, point by point.

          If you want to catch up, go to the right sidebar and click on the months. The headings will tell you when there’s a legal point being discussed. Just read the main article: most have 600 to 1000 comments on, which would take you all year to read and don’t add much to the legal points.

          As the writing is rather skinny here (we are too deeply nested) if you want to continue point by point, start a new comment at the bottom of the thread. Let’s do one point at a time, to avoid confusion.
          Don’t comment on the old articles.

    • He ruined his own life. Stop sobbing, no one here care about your tears!

    • nocamo33 says:

      Ha! Vindictive and petty to prosecute a murderer because his life has been inconvenienced. Do you want to declare a moratorium on all the trials ongoing in an attempt to convict black males suspected of murder?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      The defendant ruined his own life.

    • Malisha says:

      “ridiculously vindictive and petty” to demand that someone who murdered an unarmed kid motivated by hatred and racist profiling be held to our constitutional standard of NOT depriving individuals of their constitutional rights under color of state law?

      They shouldn’t have banned you at the Outhouse for not being supportive enough of Zimmerman, AC, you ARE supportive enough.

      BTW, the investigation in DOJ should not be of whether Zimmerman violated Trayvon Martin’s constitutional rights because HE was not a cop; HE was not a state actor. It should be of SPD, Serino, Singleton, Smith, Carter, Lee, Wolfinger, Bertalan, and many many others (including HOA, those who encouraged armed patrolling and stalking) etc. And that investigation is still ongoing. Personally I don’t put much stock in it because DOJ does not want to “find” that the institutional racism in Sanford is a serious national problem, but that’s the reality.

      Your take on everything is raahhh-ther supercilious but hey, if that’s your affectation, you’re entitled to it. :mrgreen:

      My My My, these petty vindictive people not wanting their teens randomly gunned down by folks like Fogen. Tsk Tsk let’s instruct these vermin a bit. Imagine yourself in a waistcoat much?

    • roderick2012 says:

      Also, I think it’s harsh to say that Serino and Singleton “vouched” for Zimmerman.

      if Serino believed George’s story on the night of the shooting why did he suggest manslaughter charges without any evidence other than not believing George’s lies?

      In March 2012 Serino filed two reports–one for manslaughter and the other for Murder 2. Nothing about self-defense.

      As for George’s life being ruined he did it to himself by trying to play a wanna be cop without the proper training.

      What about Trayvon’s life? He’s dead because George’s racial profiling which the defense confirmed by calling that white female who was the victim of a home invasion and the defense’s closing argument asking the jury (five white females) to imagine if a scary black man were following them at night.

      But continue to live in denial if you must.

    • Sleuth says:


      I respectfully disagree with your point of view. The confessed murderer should have remained in his car IF he was truly in fear of his life. He, and he alone, made a decision to follow. He chose to live the remainder of his days living as Cain.

      All that aside, although I don’t agree with your initial statement, at least in your subsequent posts, you have pointed out reasons to support your point of view, and managed to do it without resorting to swimming in the sewer of name calling. I always welcome mature opposing points of views.

  45. nocamo33 says:

    Folks help me out. I am being bombarded with updates. About 1,000. I have tried removing myself from some threads, but the emails still keep coming. I think I found the solution by clicking Unfollow to FLLB but I don’t want to have to do that. Help!

    • nocamo33–I had the same problem. Remove yourself from receiving emails about postings or comments, but keep the option to receive emails about the SITE. You can also save frederickleatherman.com to your FAVORITES for quick access, then go to the site whenever you want. The most recent blog entry will be listed first, then the previous one, etc. Hope this helps.

  46. nocamo33 says:

    This just in, Sanford Florida has just declared open season on all NHW volunteers. Can you imagine being a NHW volunteer now having to worry about confronting skittish potential criminals that will now be packing as a result of this sham trial?

  47. kllypyn says:

    There have been no riots just peaceful protests even in trayvon’s home town of Miami just peaceful protests.

  48. willisnewton says:

    Just to be clear, here is the entire statement from the DoJ on the matter of federal charges against GZ ever being filed:

    “Experienced federal prosecutors will determine whether the evidence reveals a prosecutable violation of any of the limited federal criminal civil rights statutes within our jurisdiction,” a Justice Department spokesman said in a statement, “and whether federal prosecution is appropriate in accordance with the department’s policy governing successive federal prosecution following a state trial.”

    I don’t know about you guys, but that sounds like a stall to me.

    • DruDo says:

      Sounds like a stall to me, too, Willis. I don’t have much faith in anything any law enforcement agency says anymore. Could be, and probably is, their way of placating people and they will do nothing. People are treated like unruly children who have to be controlled and not citizens of this country. I am so dejected and disheartened by this whole thing.

    • Romaine says:

      more than a stall it is a fail….the ruling is in and it will not be addressed any further…if the doj was going to step in it would be in writing and on the table the minute the verdict came out. they have had more than enough time to build their case.

  49. Shari/human being with no nation says:

    Okay I think Fogen is trying to provoke people. I read somewhere that he is asking for an apology from black people. I hope it’s not true.

  50. jodiwankanobi says:

    SMFH Sundance Cracker is a self serving racist nut….he is now answering questions from his minions after “turning down all interview requests”……i wish some powerful media outlet would investigate and destroy this nut publicly.

    • Rachael says:

      Maybe he will be part of that DOJ investigation (if there is one) and he will be removed. His site was so full of horrible hateful racist stuff, one can only hope.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Clearly a wanker, but I’m thinking narcissist. That would explain SDCs charismatic ability to dazzle his entourage.

    • crazy1946 says:

      Do a little research on the “sUndance cRacker(head)” and you will find he is a high ranking member of the Tea Party in Florida, then do a little more research on John Donnolly and you will soon determine that he too is a strong supporter of the Tea Party! Now go back into your memory and recall that Donnolly’s wife said that they worked hand in hand with the Fogdoit in a campaign several years ago, perhaps against the election of Obama in 2008? Right after all this started it was mentioned prominently over and over that the Fogdoit was a Democrat so it could not have been race related, how many of you remember that? Now think for a minute, in 2007-8 the GOP was encouraging their members in many states to vote for Obama in the primaries to prevent Hillary Clinton from getting the nomination for the Democratic Party! What they did not realize at the time was by doing so they actually caused the election of their worst nightmare, Obama! Say what you want, think what you want, but I will suggest that the creation of this atmosphere that allowed this crime to be committed was a direct result of the actions of the GOP/TP and their money! A few have blamed the NRA and suggest they were the financial backers of the Fogdoits defense, however, I think not, it came from the PAC’s supported by the TEA party, and it is/was an effort to keep control of their political power in the state of Florida! Folks look at your local business owners and if they support the GOP/TP they do not support you or your needs! You want to put the power back into the hands of the people? Then hit those people in the only place they have feeling, in their pocket book, take away their source of income (much as they have done to you!) and you will give them pain and suffering and soon you will gain control……

      The only way that all people will gain not only equality (and justice with out prejudice based on wealth/race) is by the people taking control of the political system as was intended by the founders of this nation! You want this problem resolved? You won’t get it thru force or violence, you will only get it by using the system as it was designed, you vote and voice will be heard only if you use it wisely…… Now back under my rock…..

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I don’t understand why people keep saying NRA money supported Fogen when the organization publicly distanced itself from him. Fogen was never their posterboy even if he was the posterboy for many CCW carriers on an individual basis.

        I don’t know much about FL politics, but I do know about following the money trail, and there’s lots of sleazy big money in both conservative and liberal politics, but with Republican control in FL, I’d definitely search there.

  51. Dave says:

    “Just go home and put on your favourite record. With every note, just remember that this is something that the Dark can’t take away from you.”

    This was the closing line from tonight’s episode of the British TV series “Endeavor” on “Masterpiece Mystery”. Maybe it will help some of us sleep tonight. Goodnight my Friends!

    • Couldn’t you find a better source than Alex Jones’ InfoWar?
      This is a RW & racist propaganda source with no other objective but associating AA with violence and what have you.

      • lady2soothe says:


        Excuse me??? Never heard of Alex Jones or InfoWar before and I certainly didn’t post it to piss you off.

        Not a very nice way of asking me a question.

      • dianetrotter says:

        I did a google search and infowar.com was the only one reporting this.

        • aussie says:

          Always be suspicious when there’s only one reporting something. I googled “protests” not “riots” and (copying from further up)

          Hours ago I read a report about Oakland.

          Two flags were burned, one squad car spray painted, and some unspecified helicopter saw some other spray painting and 2 or 3 office windows broken, from that distance impossible to tell if the perpetrators were protesters.

          Police in the same report said no arrests had been made.

          Police in Los Angeles fired a few rubber bullets at a peaceful crowd whose path they blocked for a while. One cop with a baton made a grab for a peaceful protester wearing a light grey or white hoodie but the guy twisted out of his grip. Then they all moved on. (True they were chanting How Many Kids have You Killed Today, but…….they were also chanting What do we want? JUSTICE when do we want it NOW) (Video of this about 3 or 4 screens up frm here)

      • lady2soothe says:

        tchoupicaillou… Was your comment meant for another poster? I just quadruple checked and the link I posted was from World Star Hip Hop about an Angry Grandpa

        • That’s right. I don’t know how it happened. It’s my mistake.

          • lady2soothe says:

            tchoupicaillou… No problem, I’ve noticed many posts lately have ended up under the wrong comment, it even happened to me the other day. I’ve now been alerted (inadvertently) to watch out for Alex Jones and his website, good to know!

      • Sabrina B. says:

        Exactly what it is. Them, Fox News, Glen Beck, and CNN/HLN is leaning towards competing with Fox for their low information base. That is another thing we (as a people) need to become aware of. We frequent the people that would hurt us and don’t understand that by contributing we are encouraging and enriching. They are unaware of how many places situated around them with cheaper goods and ready availability are actually working against them. Ratings lead to money, profits lead to money. That money is what is being used to get fogen off.

    • willisnewton says:

      whoops tchoupis reply was meant for another poster. apologies.

      infowars is a fake news site. beware!

      • lady2soothe says:

        As I told tchoupicaillou, we’re all hypersensitive today, however there is good news:

        In a statement Sunday, the Justice Department said the criminal section of the civil rights division, the FBI and the U.S. Attorney’s office for the Middle District of Florida are continuing to evaluate the evidence generated during the federal probe, in addition to the evidence and testimony from the state trial.

  52. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    I knew it was coming… DOJ you had better move fast…


    • Two sides to a story says:

      Oakland always has a short fuse because of LEO abuses there.

    • HeresLookingatYOU says:

      Our sons and daughters are now targets.. the ok was given by verdict

    • biznesschic1959@yahoo.com says:

      Be careful quoting Alex Jones. I can’t find that information on any other news site.

      • willisnewton says:

        I know Alex Jones from working on a movie he was cast in. He’s an IDIOT and his organization is without merit. The only person less credible of this topic is GZ himself.

        There have been no riots so far.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          As far as I know, the pictures from Oakland are accurate. People in Oakland have a short fuse because of long-time abuses by LEO. I wouldn’t call it a riot, though, and Alex Jones is a shiz stirrer.

  53. KateW says:

    All of the killer’s 911 calls were of Black men, even calling at one point on a 7 or 8 year old Black child. If the DOJ wants evidence race was involved and Martin’s civil rights violated they can start there. From there he went after him with a loaded weapon and so on.

    • biznesschic1959@yahoo.com says:

      And Zimmerman did himself no favors, with his website asking for donations, with a hateful comment section.

  54. 2dogsonly says:

    The NY ones were peaceful!
    AC 360 reporting civil rights case against police dept. may be ahead. This is different from suits against tubs as he won’t hav money, even from a book deal..

    O’Mara expressing shock at public outrage, SHOCK, I SAY AND DISMAY;-)
    And he was wearing a hideous green sport coat that matched his teeth.

    I am cautiously optimistic this may not go quietly away.

    • Dee says:

      Bull crap, this guy has money. They were putting money in safe deposit boxes when they caught them the first time. Money is what bought him out. What else was it, how they can ask about manslaughter, never come back with what they wanted to know. Then come back hours after with a not guilty. And you don’t think that someone got to them. I am so upset over this, what am I supposed to do now? What do I teach my kids to do, if someone is following them? Should I get them a gun now so that they can at least have a fighting chance against someone like Zimmerman. What are we supposed to do now as black parents? What…

      • aussie says:

        No guns. If they try to defend themselves with a gun, they won’t survive being arrested.

        I know! whistles. Like referee whistles. Very loud. Pepper spray. The latter works against anyone not armed with a gun. The former attracts attention attention or calls help. Set phones up to record voice at the touch of a single button. GET IT ON TAPE.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I have a friend in NYC who said cops rushed the area she was in and roughed up some peaceful protestors. She said it happened very suddenly and randomly as if they’d gotten an order to show people who’s boss. She was pretty frightened and posted to FB with her phone as it came down.

      • aussie says:

        The voice in their head tells them.

        Everyone has camera phones now, and too many at a protest for them to all be confiscated. This makes for a lot of extra safety for the people.

  55. biznesschic1959@yahoo.com says:

    Obama is not up for reelection, he needs to do what is right.

    I remember a story told by my family, before I was born. My older brother, who was 8 years old at the time, needed to go to the bathroom at a baseball game. Not knowing the racial make up of the times, he was going into the whites only bathroom. My father had to chastise his young son, and was ashamed to have to explain the circumstance to him.

    There are those of us who look like Martins parents and president Obama, who waited 6 hours in line last November to re-elect the first African American president. We didn’t ask for any special favors, just that we were proud of him, to succeed as president in this racial environment. It is not asking too much, that we should not have to be ashamed to have to explain to our young brown boys, that the racial make up of this country, means that he can’t enjoy the same rights as other. DOJ needs to prosecute Zimmerman on civil rights violations.

  56. smokeegyrl says:

    Riots have started in LA Cali and Crenshaw… it has been reported by tweeters that rubber bullets have been fired by police. I think Oakland behind the No Guilty results.

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      People are going to take this anymore. It is terrible this criminal is guilty of murder. Any riots you can award it to Rick Scott (racist), Angela Corey, DA and don’t forget the SPD.

    • NO riots in Los Angeles. Don’t spread this crap.

      • smokeegyrl says:

        I said tweeters have said it.. not me… give me a break here… who are you? There is a video of it. I am just letting people know what has been said.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          There was a video of police attacking protestors on Saturday night, no riots. Conservative tweeters love to call any confrontation a riot.

    • aussie says:

      Hours ago I read a report about Oakland.

      Two flags were burned, one squad car spray painted, and some unspecified helicopter saw some other spray painting and 2 or 3 office windows broken, from that distance impossible to tell if the perpetrators were protesters.

      Police in the same report said no arrests had been made.

      Police in Los Angeles fired a few rubber bullets at a peaceful crowd whose path they blocked for a while. One cop with a baton made a gran for a peaceful protester wearing a light grey or white hoodie but the guy twisted out of his grip. Then they all moved on. (True they were chanting How Many Kids have You Killed Today, but…….they were also chanting What do we want? JUSTICE when do we want it NOW)

  57. nocamo33 says:

    This is the same country where MLK was murdered and we still don’t know who did it.
    An anonymous letter believe to come from the FBI to Dr. King read:
    “The American public, the church organizations that have been helping—Protestants, Catholics and Jews will know you for what you are—an evil beast. So will others who have backed you. You are done. King, there is only one thing left for you to do. You know what it is. You have just 34 days in which to do (this exact number has been selected for a specific reason, it has definite practical significant [sic]). You are done. There is but one way out for you. You better take it before your filthy fraudulent self is bared to the nation.”

    We are not a nation of laws as Mr. Obama states. We are a nation of unrestrained and unchecked power.

  58. jodiwankanobi says:

    Obama’s hands are tied.. if he eats a piece of chocolate he is accused of being racist by all the racists. He has to be very careful because clearly the country is really run by fox news, conservative, racist, bigots with their guns and private health cover. The lowest form of pond scum in the country seem to have the loudest voices and no child is safe. I really feel for all the good US citizens that will never be safe because rednecks think guns are fun unless one of those black folks have ’em.

  59. jodiwankanobi says:

    O’Mara had no case except for asking every man, woman, cat and dog if it could be george screaming. His closing was the worst in the history of closing arguments. How the fuck did this happen? I hope the jury is investigated.

    Has anything been done about what Taffee said, having inside info on the jury etc?

    Anyone hear Robert Zimmermans crap, everything he says about Trayvon is what needs to be said about his brother. The whole family are a bunch of racist fruit cakes. Where is Dexter when you need him (joke)

    • nocamo33 says:

      I hate to come off paranoid or a conspiracy theorist, but how in the heck does something like this happen in full view of the world and the president is so weak, all he can say is let’s keep the peace. I have to wonder if these jurors were visited by the CIA (Fogen’s dad spent 10 years at the Pentagon – doing what? Working for who? What does he know? Who is willing to help him?). I’d also want to see if their bank accounts have been lined. Otherwise, how in the WORLD can ALL 6 jurors AGREE that Zimmerman does not deserve to be punished?

      • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

        The white supremacy run Obama.. NWO, NRA and Illuminate… That is what is going on this thing is bigger than what people think. Things are not equal in this country; every black person who thinks because they go to college and work along side a white person they are equal.. You are not! Your life means nothing in this country and Angela Corey, SPD, Rick Scott and DA all orchestrated the outcome according to instructions of the higher powers that run Obama…

        Remember, Obama is only a CEO running a corporation (America). There are powers that direct and instruct him what he can say or speak against.. He is a puppet…

    • biznesschic1959@yahoo.com says:

      White republican southern women group think is what happened. Again, the prosecution underestimated the power of racism in this case.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Damn, I underestimated their ability to sort through the testimony and the evidence too.

        • cielo62 says:

          Two sides- in the face of racism, facts and evidence don’t matter. The prosecution team was from Jacksonville. There, GZ would have been convicted. But Sanford is a racist shithole. He got away with murder there.


    • DruDo says:

      “Where is Dexter when you need him (joke)”

      I was thinking the same thing. 🙂

  60. biznesschic1959@yahoo.com says:

    Bottom line is the prosecution team underestimated the racial undertones of this case, and allowed an all white jury to decide the fate of a black teenage boy. That mistake will not be made, when Zimmerman faces Federal Civil rights violations.

  61. DruDo says:

    Just read a HuffPost article..Are you ready for this? CAC says he wants to be a lawyer now. OMG…this stupid POS can’t even get a 2 yr associate’s degree! ROFL! Maybe he could work for O’M and West. He’d fit right in with the slimy and sleazy liars. He really has delusions of grandeur. Well, he does have all the qualifications and experience: Violence against women, dogs and law enforcement and last but not least, CHILD MURDERER!

  62. smokeegyrl says:

    NAACP has been having a problem as some of you have been mentioning. So they have solution.

    Tell friends to text JUSTICE to 62227 to demand that the DOJ address the travesties of this tragedy by filing a civil rights violation against Zimmerman.

  63. nocamo33 says:

    I am in stunned, utter disbelief… I am numb… This goes to the top and if they won’t do anything because this murderer is the son of a former Pentagon Intelligence worker/Magistrate judge, then I wonder what can be done?

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      Listen that is Sanford Florida racist people. They told a black couple that was heading to another county they could not wash their clothing at there location. Then asked were they from the area. They left…

  64. sorry i haven’t read everything but has anyone from the jury spoken

  65. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    Would you believe the dogs and cats in China obtain justice for crimes committed against them. They executed the CEO who sold tainted dog and cat food killing many animals..

    Dogs and cats got more respect than Trayvon Martin.

  66. Cynthia, TX says:


  67. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    Like Oj money got Zimmerman off – NRA big money….

    • HeresLookingatYOU says:

      Since this was not an immunity hearing can the murderer still be sued civilly in court for wrongful death?

      • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

        I believe it is yes..

        • nocamo33 says:

          But OM plans to get the immunity hearing done now. I see know that the State of Florida did not want him set free in the hearing. They wanted the air of a trial/hearing of all the facts before setting him free. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

          • HeresLookingatYOU says:

            how is that even possible

          • nocamo33 says:

            He said something to that effect. I am not an attorney, not sure what that means. The immunity hearing for SYG includes civil and criminal, the criminal piece has been dealt with. Not the civil. That’s a question for the Prof or other legal eagles here.

          • cielo62 says:

            GZ waived his SYG hearing. It is a PRETRIAL motion, so now that the trial is over, no he can’t have a PRETRIAL hearing.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • Momma says:

            Fogen waived the immunity hearing if I remember correctly.

          • nocamo33 says:

            Right, I know but just read something about it in the WSJ.

          • ay2z says:

            His lawyers were playing a semantics game, saying they did not believe that waiting SYG was any more than waiving a ‘pre-trial SYG’. They agreed that SYG was sort of intended to go pre-trial to avoid a trial, but sounds like they will go for immunity post-trial.

            IF he is so innocent of the crime, why did he not do his immunity hearing pre-trial? Really, why not?

          • cielo62 says:

            SYG is a PRETRIAL hearing ONLY. MOM is full of shit.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • nocamo33 says:

            That’s what I heard. Thanks for chiming in.

  68. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:


    Why did George Zimmerman get acquitted?

    Because white supremacy enables the lingering belief that some black men must be killed with impunity for society at large to be safe, says Aura Bogado.

    Read more: As Feds Review Martin Case, NAACP Seeks DOJ Action and Targets State ‘Stand Your Ground’ Laws | The Nation http://www.thenation.com/blog/175262/naacp-seeks-doj-intervention-martin-case-targets-stand-your-ground-laws#ixzz2Z4YkM12z
    Follow us: @thenation on Twitter | TheNationMagazine on Facebook

    • RobertSF says:

      Even when people can argue they’re not supremacists, black life is so devalued that the killing of a young black man is viewed more or less like killing of a dog was viewed thirty years ago.

      Thirty years ago, had someone killed their dog, the general attitude would have been, yes, too bad, but come on, it’s not that big a deal. It was certainly nothing to go to trial over.

  69. Malisha says:

    It just occurred to me:

    1. Fogen is afraid of Blacks.
    2. Now he is more afraid of Blacks than ever because he believes they all want to kill him.
    3. He will get back his CCW and his gun.
    4. His lawyer has announced that he will need his gun because he is endangered.
    5. Since he is always afraid of Blacks, his fear can lead him to kill someone else as he killed Trayvon Martin, of whom he was terribly afraid.
    6. Whether he’s right or wrong about how he got so afraid, the fact remains that he suffers from these extreme fears for his safety.
    7. Therefore, there is really NO BLACK in central Florida who can be at all confident that running into Fogen casually in any public place EVER will not lead to great bodily injury or death.
    8. Even Blacks he has never seen before, as Trayvon was a Black he had never seen before, may make him feel suspicious, insecure, frightened, and likely to shoot to kill.

    EVERY BLACK needs to be terribly afraid of George Zimmerman in any public place.

    EVERY BLACK PERSON who is cautious should immediately apply at the courthouse for a restraining order against Fogen coming within 300 yards of him or her; this is both for the Black person’s safety from being shot dead, and for Fogen’s safety of being placed in fear for his life by a Black person.

    Even some white people need to apply for these restraining orders. Especially teen-agers need them. White volunteers should go to court with Black children and teen-agers to mentor them through the process of obtaining restraining orders against George Zimmerman.

    We should publicize the way to do this, put up a webpage so they can download the forms, help them write their statements to make sure they can access protection before it is too late.

    • DruDo says:

      CAC will am his returned gun at the wrong person one of these dark, rainy nights.

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      Can you post this on FACEBOOK and TWITTER… This is great….info for the blacks in Florida…

      EVERY BLACK PERSON who is cautious should immediately apply at the courthouse for a restraining order against Fogen coming within 300 yards of him or her; this is both for the Black person’s safety from being shot dead, and for Fogen’s safety of being placed in fear for his life by a Black person.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Unfortunately, in some states you have to have clear proof of a problem before you can file a restraining order. I had a problem with someone I knew who had caused me physical harm and mental anguish in the past who was again approaching me in a threatening manner in Colorado and I couldn’t get a restraining order because the judge said the threat wasn’t specific enough. Go figure.

    • Momma says:

      That is a great idea! How can we help?

    • Rachael says:

      By fearing and profiling young black males, he now will live the way a of a young black male.

      And if someone thinks he looks “suspicious”…

    • abbyj1 says:

      Interesting idea, Malisha. If he had hundreds, if not thousands, of restraining orders against him, it would draw more attention to his movements, and put him under constant scrutiny. Go for it.

  70. dianetrotter says:

    Jury tampering or stealth juror? Who watched Nancy Grace yesterday when Taafe bragged that it was 5 to 1 in favor of NG. He said the 1 was trying to persuade the others on manslaughter. Nancy asked at least 6 or 7 times how he knew? Hopefully, the DOJ will watch that tape and look into the jurors. Or maybe it was too much trouble to get clarification so “Let’s have free dinner, vote NG, and all it a day. They didn’t care to get further clarification. something is WRONG!!!

    • Sophia33 says:

      We need to send the tape to them.

    • Sophia33 says:

      I went to the conservative treehouse yesterday to see what they were saying. They kept saying that it was the one “minority” juror holding things up. I posted it here. Then Kate asked me how they new. Then she came upon a tweet that Taffee sent out. Kate said then that there was something up and I told her that the Treehouse people couldn’t possibly know what they were talking about. Then it happened and other people started talking about Nancy Grace.

      THEN, I find out that Pappy Zimmerman has an in with the CTH.

      Yeah this stinks.

      • KateW says:

        I didn’t come upon a tweet he sent out. I said someone had said something about the Nancy Grace tape. But before that Sophia you had posted that the CTH had some something to the point that someone was holding the jury up. That was before Taffe had said anything to Nancy, so you put that together. How did either the CTH or Taffe know what was going on unless there was someone in that room texting out to a supporter that was relaying the information out.

        Clear violation. Clear bias and prejudicial. Can someone post the interview here. This could be grounds for mistrial because the individuals had a motive and clear bias for the defense verdict of not guilty. That would indicate this was not a fair trial. I would also surmise that one or a few of these individuals gave money to his defense fund. The jury was fixed.

        • Sophia33 says:

          Sorry, I thought you mentioned the tweet because someone replied to my original post about the tweet. So much was going on and my brain is scrambled

      • Rachael says:

        And the prosecution was concerned about one of the jurors possibly knowing some of the witnesses.

    • KateW says:

      This is troubling and definitely prejudicial. That one juror should have stuck to her guns! Why let the killer’s supporters bully you into submission! I mean seriously. We would have been there all month f-ing with me!! I tell you that much. Why did that person cave to his supporters on the jury! I understand she wanted to get back to her family but this is a child who will never go back to his family. Never see another sunrise. Shameful! Terribly shameful. When the judge asked is this your verdict she should have said no. That would have been dramatic! But I could not live with myself had I allowed my vote to be blocked by a killer’s goon squad.

    • My Forehead Tho says:

      I’m usually the first to laugh at conspiracy theories, but clearly something wasn’t right here. Fogen walked into to court with an over overly confident smile as if he knew that he was walking out. Mind you, he has never smiled in court unless somebody cracked a joke. Then, Taffe was on both Nancy Grace and the show before it saying he knows that 5 jurors are going for acquittal and one isn’t. And when questioned by the hosts on how he knew that, he said something like “you’ll see” or “just watch”.

      Though it’s possible that a stealth juror made it in the jury, prejudiced the other jurors by showing evidence in the media that wasn’t presented to the court and communicated with the defense, it’s still probably a coincidence.

      • Sophia33 says:

        My too. I laugh at conspiracy theories. I just happened to stumble into this one by happenstance.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I too noticed Fogen and his defense team and his parents seemed unusually relaxed. Only Shellie seemed tense and looked as if she was praying with her eyes closed. At the time I thought WTF, because they generally looked worried or somber.

      • jodiwankanobi says:

        id say it was more than one stealth juror. they knew 5 were a given so thats how they knew one was holding out. Perhaps it wasnt’ 1 sending texts that alerted the defense, perhaps the defense already knew that they had 5 votes from the beginning, hence their pathetic case….it was george screaming….that’s all they had, yet they won.

      • concernedczen says:

        Those 5 jurors were prejudiced long before this trial ever started, but I do agree that FT’s statements are worthy of investigation.

      • abbyj1 says:

        MyForehead, It just doesn’t pass the smell test. It’s one thing to speculate about how the crime unfolded–which we all did. It’s quite another to get a hinky sense that something was NOT right about the way the jury played out. Those of us not given to any conspiracy theories feel that other forces had to be at play here. I know I do.

  71. Sophia33 says:

    Something to brighten you day! Look how big this rally is in New York.


    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      WOW…..now that is uplifting.

    • Sabrina B. says:

      I am so heartened by this. There are loads of people that came out and of all colors.

    • DruDo says:

      I’m so glad to see this! Thank you for posting it. It’s easy to see why this kind of rally wasn’t done in Sanford. People there know what would have happened to them if they had tried. Corrupt and racist place!

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I have a good friend there taking a lot of pictures. Very inspiring. Wish I was there! People are having a lot of fun protesting as well.

  72. Two sides to a story says:

    I was just accused of spreading hate on Facebook by posting many links articles I’ve posted here . . . *sigh*

    That person responded to the rather benign article about the DOJ investigating the Fogen case. Guess people’s true motivations are popping out.

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      Don’t worry about we have those types here also…. I learned to ignore them Everyone Is Entitled To Their Opinion.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I agree that everyone is entitled to their opinion I generally politely ignore most everything I don’t agree with that comes by on my FB feed. Or engage in lightweight dialogue with people or some good-natured sparring if I know them well. But I’ve had so many personal attacks and wrongful accusations and spam and phishing attacks, and other attempts to discredit me by Fogen supporters that I feel I’ve got to instantly block people when these dog whistles pop up. They claim to want to engage in dialogue and then behind the scenes they’re trying to hack into my sites, or are sending me virus-laden e-mail, porn, etc.

        Because I’m in the publishing business, I’ve allowed some strangers into my personal FB and my biz page is open to the public, as is my blog and website, but I can only trust peopleon FB now that I know in real time or others like you guys who I’ve seen posting regularly here – or friends of friends who I know agree with me.

        I hate living in an echo chamber, but those folks are inherently dishonest about who they really are and what their motives really are.

    • DruDo says:

      The snakes are slithering out from under their rocks.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        That’s for sure. I discovered the other day that I had Fogen supporters following my personal FB rather than friending me. They could only see anything I left open to public view, and I don’t have anything open to public view on my personal page, so their motive to follow a closed personal site seems questionable, to say the least!

  73. Sophia33 says:

    Professor what is your take on the stirrings of the DOJ.

    Many people are saying that is a huge long shot. What are your thoughts!

    • Malisha says:

      They’re shooting blanks. DOJ shoots nothing but blanks in a case like this.

      • Sophia33 says:

        That’s what I suspect.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Remember Mississippi? Instead of stepping in and going after the kkk dangerous people, they just told the Freedom Summer people that “The FBI ONLY investigates.”

        Then, when the movie “Mississippi Burning” came out it portrayed the FBI in a completely opposite manner and had the FBI doing such active things and offering great protection.

        In his book “Radical Equations: Mississippi Civil Rights to the Algebra Project”, Bob Moses lamented the movie’s false portrayal of the FBI.

  74. MollyK says:

    There is a large demonstration in Times Square.

  75. Sophia33 says:

    I wish this song was no longer appropriate in this day and age.

  76. Sabrina B. says:

    Well here is an eye-opener for independent women and mothers alike. Now, when we move into a neighborhood, we should:

    “It has never been more important to be street savvy, to stay off other people’s lawns, to avoid walking alone in an unfamiliar neighborhood, to retreat whenever possible rather than confront someone and to call 911 the moment you feel as if you’re in danger.

    To which I would add, if you are new to a neighborhood, take the opportunity to introduce yourself and to make yourself known, particularly to the neighborhood watch so that they know you belong. Find out before you settle in if people there are jumpy for any reason, perhaps because of burglaries or other crimes.”


    This person may be being helpful but it reads to me like this was all Trayvon’s fault. We now have to advise our children on how to avoid people like fogen rather than how to get rid of people like fogen. It’s all so effed up backwards and twisted.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Commonsense courtesy and respect is understandable. But no one should have to live in fear of nuts given government sanction to carry firearms. There’s something deeply wrong with this.

  77. My Forehead Tho says:

    I don’t understand this family at all. Here’s a video Fogen’s brother on CNN last night talking about being concerned about Trayvon and other [black] teens like him. He also said Fogen and SheLie attempted to break the the cycle of “misfortune” [and violence of blacks] by mentoring two black kids (keep in mind that the words in… [ ] is my attempt to read in between the lines of his bullshit). Skip to 21:00.

    • Sabrina B. says:

      I refuse to see or hear another thing come from that side unless it is a not guilty plea in federal court.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      May his name be forgotten.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      We don’t make people accountable for death? Omigod. Another God’s Plan moment.

    • abbyj1 says:

      I’m with Sabrina, MyForehead. I can’t watch this slick liar for a second. I’ll take your word for it, and add one of mine as far as GZ’s f’ed up brother goes: BULLSH*T. The killer and his wife caring so much about minorities that they were mentoring two black kids. BULLSH*T.

    • MDH says:

      I would not piss on any Zimmerman if their heart was on fire.

      The cognitive dissonance is appalling.

      Trayvon’s brother took the stand and presented himself as a fine upstanding person on his way to a successful life wherein he will contribute to society.

      This guy’s brother was too much of a coward to take the stand. The only words out his well raised mouth that were presented as evidence of how he views his fellow man are:

      F’in punks



      I rest my case.

  78. boyd says:

    Don’t listen to the blah blah blah we could not prove murder 2. They did not want to. as the Jurors in Pa did in 2009.

    Here’s a link to a case in Pa back in 2009. The jury back then decided to ignore the law and allow their neighbor’s sons to walk away almost scott free


    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      That’s my point the state had 1st degree in my opinion. I’ve said from the beginning after viscously being called divisive they deliberately excluded all Zimmerman criminal history… MOM went judge shopping and guess what JN is over the Shellie Zimmerman perjury case. All fixed…

      The fix was in when they gave Martin Family a trial.. They didn’t care about Trayvon… Angela Corey and Rick Scott (who stole from Medicaid for years to make his millions) are just as responsible as the DA and SPD.

  79. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    May God bless and keep you in His loving arms, Trayvon.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Mom and Dad,
      Now I float on the wings of eternity
      Waiting for reunion with you
      While my heart is filled with your blessings.
      Grateful for the love you have given me.

      Be blessed, Mom and Dad.
      I want you to be comforted
      I want you to rest in His love
      I want you to feel His gift of peace.

      Now on the eternal wave of soulful light,
      I send you my love, Mom and Dad.

  80. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    SYG task force was a joke. They place a leader whom is Black woman to give the impression they are not bias. Last week the verdict came down that the SYG law was fine.

    The Sanford Police department assisted GZ in covering his tracks.

  81. disappointed says:

    I am still furious. I do not understand this verdict. I know it is a racial issue, but I don’t want it to be because I am white and in no way support this pos. I do not want to be lumped into the same race as this pos.
    I have been thinking a lot today on how we can life the Martin/Fulton family up. My husband and I would like to set up a Trayvon Martin scholarship up for our local school district. If any one can afford a little maybe you could do it in your area. Are you allowed to just randomly set one up in someone’s name?
    I also would like to see Nike or another athletic company to make Hoodies named Trayvon Martin and donate the money to Black communities. It is my belief fogen would be totally disgusted and shocked if we could get as much money going to the real victim rather than him. It would be the worst punishment of all. Anyone have any ideas how we could get any of this going? Or do you have any ideas on WHAT we can to get the victims name out there instead of the killer?

    • disappointed says:

      how we can lift the Martin/Fulton family

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Good thoughts, because the bigots drag the Martin Foundation’s name through the mud, but if a significant number of citizens do lots of things in his name, those azzes will just have to eat it bigtime.

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      Ask Corey she filed charges she couldn’t prove… It should’ve been 1st degree murder with special circumstances with blacks on that jury…

      • Malisha says:

        She’d have to get a first-degree murder charge off a grand jury, and I think she accurately figured that a grand jury in Seminole County would want him to be free as tinkerbelle.

        • aussie says:

          A grand jury just declined to indict the guy who shot two burglars (in the house next door) in the BACK after telling the 911 operator he was going to do it.

    • Shari/pensive says:

      Sybrina Fulton has a foundation. Contact her or her attorney I guess.

  82. Two sides to a story says:

    Andrew Cohen Jul 13 2013, 10:54 PM ET
    In the next few hours and days you’ll likely be inundated with analysis and commentary and solemn expressions of outrage or joy about what the acquittal of George Zimmerman means — to the nation, to its rule of law, to its politics, to its racial divide, to its deadly obsession with guns, to Florida’s ALEC-infused justice system, and to probably 100 other things I can’t list off the top of my head.


  83. boyd says:

    the entire case should be reveiwed by DOJ. something is wrong here. Not one of those Jurors thought he was lying?

    Not 1 guy I know believed it. If the kid could deck him with his weak hand one blow at 158 , he’d have rip his arm out of his socket upon seeing the gun.

    he’s super strong and at the end ultra weak. most bullsheet story ever told.

    Thos are some dumb women, and the one who is remorseful Please, those type crybaby women are a dime a dozen. looking for sympathy, she let a killer go.

    Today I bet they all went to church , and played pretend Christians,

    I was so pissed today I let my car run parked for 5 hours , those damm battery engines are silent

    • Two sides to a story says:

      “I was so pissed today I let my car run parked for 5 hours , those damm battery engines are silent.”

      I decided finally to stay home because I’m too upset to be out and about and would probably do something similar or worse!

      Still haven’t gotten my work done and will have to start soon. Due by 12 AM PST . . . I think I’ve finally gotten the worst of the initial grief out . . .

  84. Sabrina B. says:

    Just wanted to add Guardian article by Gary Younge:

    Let it be noted that on this day, Saturday 13 July 2013, it was still deemed legal in the US to chase and then shoot dead an unarmed young black man on his way home from the store because you didn’t like the look of him.


    • ay2z says:

      At least they should keep the shell casing in evidence, or provide it to some evidence file for future reference for when he kills again.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Hopefully he won’t be given another CCW, but my hopes aren’t high. I do think we’ll see Fogen in the court system again.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Zimmerman Juror Speaks (Watch), then Backs Out of Book Deal

        She’s saying that it did matter to her that gz did not identify himself. She doesn’t believe that he needed to, or maybe she doesn’t believe that Trayvon had a right to know who gz was or why he was doing what he was doing. Because, she seems to believe that gz’s heart was in the right place, therefore Trayvon had no need to know who the person following him was, because he had no right to defend himself under any circumstances.

        I wonder what she would do if some stranger follows her one night.

  85. Susan Moore says:

    ““The voice of your brother’s blood cries unto Me from the ground.” Genesis 4:10

  86. SYG

    Whites stand their ground

    Blacks use the ground as a weapon


    • ay2z says:

      white bigots with loaded guns, stand their ground (ie: cowards)

      blacks or anyone else in the bigots sights, use the ground for self-defence from the bigotted b*s*rds

  87. ay2z says:

    There’s more. In Feb, this page was added to the CBC site, again, educational, and a tribute to 23 historical Black Canadians.

    And check the bottom right of this page, the current photo story is linked… photos of the reaction to this fogen trial. Captions give the story through the photos.

    Going to look and read through this now.


    • ay2z says:

      Is the fogen verdict telling something in the face of the seminole county clerk? Could go either way, trying too hard to cover a grin, or not hard enough to high true anger.

  88. A gentle rain is falling in central Florida today….appropriately.

    Pulled myself together for church this morning…however, I must admit….it was not the right place for me. Nobody at (Unity) church mentioned this! And everybody was so happy and cheerful! It was a confusing juxtaposition. I need a church home that keeps up with current events, especially when it’s happening in our own backyard & receiving international attention.

    Finally, the chorus performed a reverent song…and my tears poured out. Then they went back to a rock version of “This little light of mine.” It was THE happiest place on earth (instead of Disney down the road), and I felt lonely & isolated. It wasn’t spiritual…it was entertaining. A performance…they were having so much fun performing in front of an audience. At 9:15am on a Sunday.

    Went to a crystal bowl meditation this afternoon….20 folks showed up. We were all on the same page…we supported and helped each other.

    Came home & watched MHP on DVR….she cut to the Fulton family giving a presser. They were so gracious, kind and sincere….what a beautiful family.

    I’m dreading waking up tomorrow…and going to work. I live in a racist state. My community is racist against black people. I really thought we’d get some kind of guilty verdict…and to see progressive friends agree with the verdict….racism runs so deep…bigots are blind to it within themselves.

    It just occurred to me…most of the people at church were middle aged and up…most at the meditation were 30s and below.

    Today’s youth care. Today’s old stereotype.

    So there is hope. And… just like the death of Emmett Till sparked the Civil Rights Movement, so shall the death of Trayvon Martin.

    • KateW says:

      Very moving.

    • MichelleO says:

      Thank you for sharing your experience. My family does not attend church so much. We do pray, but don’t attend as often. I’m glad you were able to find some like-minded spiritualist with which you could express and cleanse your souls. God bless you. God bless us all.

  89. willisnewton says:

    here an AP story on the DoJ’s stirrings. This is by a real reporter with a history on this case. I trust this news report more than anything on huff post.

      • cielo62 says:

        Samuel Bagenstos, a former No. 2 official in the Justice Department’s civil rights division, said: “This is an administration that hasn’t shied away from bringing hate crimes cases that are solid prosecutions based on the facts and the law, but from what I’ve seen this would be a very difficult case to prosecute federally because the government would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that George Zimmerman acted because of Trayvon Martin’s race. If you’re trying to prove racial motivation, you are usually looking for multiple statements related to why he is engaging in this act of violence. I think it’s a difficult case to prove.”

        – See more at: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_NEIGHBORHOOD_WATCH_JUSTICE_DEPT?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US&TEMPLATE=#sthash.w4bCnQYW.dpuf

        Now THIS is where those 60+ calls on AAs as well as texts and MyPace shit can be used!!!


        • willisnewton says:

          Early in the case there were indications of hate speech regarding a reverend (probably Al Sharpton) found on GZ’s cell after his arrest. This was post-killing, but seemingly confirmed. I had the understanding this was either a text or an email sent from GZ in hiding to his family or friends. Mention was made of it in the bond hearings IIRC.

          I agree that the feds have a long-shot at MAKING a case that can be charged. But if they can get into a court I think they have a better shot than the state of Florida did at getting a conviction.

          The bit about “Mexicans” on his myspace page would seem to be quite a stretch to charge someone with a hate crime over, but at least it is something, and it predates the killing.

          The larger burden is that the RATL is not a public space. That makes the tipoff scenario more important to run to ground if it’s doable.

          • cielo62 says:

            willis~ Don’t forget the 46 calls gz made to 911, all about black males. I’d say that was racist.


        • boyd says:

          he’s wrong. MOM argument that George saw him as a black kid whoi had been stealing. he said he acted because of race. else how does he get next to the kid? he’s at the target shopping. MOM used race in his closing..

        • Sophia33 says:

          Not only that but the statements he made in interviews. Trayvon Martin fit the profile.

        • Girlp says:

          Helpful somethin specific like “effing coons” directed at Trayvon may help. They were investigating before Florida took over we don’t know what they have but I’m praying they have or find something.

          • roderick2012 says:

            Girlp: Helpful somethin specific like “effing coons”

            Why not let the jury decide-preferably a jury in Miami. LOL

  90. Jun says:

    You did not hear this from me, but there was a nutcase right wing wacko threatening to burn down Florida with a mob if Fogen is convicted

  91. ay2z says:

    Some years ago, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, Canada’s national radio/television, created educational 1 minute films that played between regular programing called “Part of Our Heritage’.

    I’ve just taken a look for it, and they do have the one about the slaves who were welcomed here, if they could make it through the perilous journey, to become part of our wonderful ‘mosaic’.

    (no one had to blend in some melting pot to lose their individuality here, celebrate the individual!)

  92. Played this a few times today….

    • Two sides to a story says:

      A new one for me.

      I had the great pleasure of pursuing an MA in Wales in a small but vibrant university town a few years ago. Very multicultural and multinational place and my multiracial teenagers were treated beautifully there (there was one incident with a young bully, but that wasn’t at all the norm). I didn’t have the concerns about letting my kids explore town freely by themselves there (no guns! strict self-defense laws!) unlike here in the US. Of course, that particular town was populated mostly by liberal and highly educated people and people are horrified by confrontational behavior.

  93. Sophia33 says:

    It is amazing to me how we have come so far to have a President who happens to be black, yet we are losing women’s rights (abortion, rape), Civil rights (Voting rights act) and just general racial civility. All we need is separate drinking fountains and bathrooms and it will be 1955 all over again.

    • HeresLookingatYou says:

      My family which is huge spends a lot of money each year on a once a year vacation in Florida..well the beat of drum has gone out…family near far and in between have nixed that forever…I will never in life step foot in Florida… I still love the Miami Heat…but not another dime will go into that economy from me or mine…

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Please never go there again!

        I have a young relative I’ve never met living in FL – a cousin’s daughter. She’s upset that I’m calling for a boycott of FL and claims I’m just hurint nice people there who don’t deserve it.

        But I was a resident of AZ during some boycotts of AZ for various stuff over the years, including the recent 1070 SB fiasco, and I supported those boycotts even though it hurt everyone. People have to push back at state gov’t abuses even if means making sacrifices. Kick ’em their pocketbook, hard and harder.

        • KateW says:

          Agreed. Unfortunate for people that live there but a message has to be sent. Killers walk and victims are made to be the bad guy. OMara is a snake in one breath says the kid caused his own death and in another says he understand how the family feels. Sickening.

          • sadlyyes says:

            there governor Prick Scott stole2 BILLION dollars from medicare,and was NEVER prosecuted
            CLEAN UP YOUR ACT FL….or you can keep Disneyworld,Universal,all your fantasy bullshit
            Fl.is no place for decent law abiding citizens to vacation…poor Tray was there on his LAST VISIT

          • Rachael says:

            It is certainly not a family oriented place.

      • abbyj1 says:

        It’s an oath our family has taken, HLAY. No more trips to Florida, no more money spent there. Heck, I’m not even going through the airport there anymore. . . .not until Florida cleans up its judicial and electoral corruption. I’ve had enough with Florida.

        There are no doubt good people there, and those good people owe it to themselves and to the rest of America to see that Florida is CLEANED UP! Whatever it takes–DO IT!! Boycott on Florida until we see a real change there. This verdict was beyond despicable, beyond a travesty.

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      In this country there are powers that be running all politics shows. A president is a CEO only…

    • Malisha says:

      Worse than 1955, really. Now, with this technology, worse.

  94. Dee says:

    Now they are going to act like the news and talk shows were on Trayvon side when they were not. They were all in Zimmerman camp. These people must think all blacks are fools, uncle toms, or just plain stupid.

  95. Two sides to a story says:

    Time Has Come Today

  96. Dee says:

    Something happened with those juries, something bigger than we are, happened in the court building on the fifth floor away from the eyes of the public. Maybe this is why they are warning the football players to be careful about what they are saying on twitter.

    I don’t know what to do, what should I tell my daughter to allow someone to be walk-up on her but do not fight them, just let them do whatever they need to do. Should I get a gun for them so that they can have an equal chance at life. What is this what else do I have to tell my kids TO PROTECT THEM .

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      It is politics…

      White Supremacy, NRA and Gun Rights…

      • KateW says:

        Nothing “happened” to them. They were already supporters of the killer. Next time prosecution pick a more diverse panel than the racist bigots that support the killer.

    • Malisha says:

      Perhaps our children cannot be protected in this country. I know that I marched on Washington in 1992 because mothers were unable to protect their children. I don’t feel we have gotten any better in these last 20 years; we are considerably worse. At that time, the kids were only being raped. Now they’re being shot in the heart.

    • abbyj1 says:

      Something happened, for sure, Dee. We may never know what it was, but we can all smell it: the fix was in. It’s up to us now to protect children from monsters like GZ since the political and judicial systems there are broken and corrupt. The state must be run completely by the NRA.

  97. KateW says:

    70+% of Americans thought he was guilty and the evidence said so. So who was sitting on that panel. A blind person could see he was not being truthful and that includes his several inconsistent statements. First he jumped from the bushes, the other story is he just walks up to him and attacks him, and so on. What was in that jury’s heart? Support for a killer. I am sure he had supporters on that panel. Shame on them and the world is round…they should remember that.

    I don’t know why the prosecution picked the individuals they did but they helped to make sure it was not a diverse panel. Picking a group of people likely to be supporters of this killer was a very bad move for the prosecution. I can’t say they didn’t give their best because they tried and you could see they were passionate about the case. But you can’t beat a panel that supports a killer or had a verdict in their head.

    • Malisha says:

      You can’t see they were passionate about the case. You can see they put on a good show. I have a friend who is an actor. Sometimes she plays a role who is a person she very much dislikes; she can play that role so well you can’t imagine she is not that person. She won a Tony Award for playing the part of someone’s girlfriend on Broadway. She and the actor who played her boyfriend were enemies. They did not speak to each other and then when the curtain rose, they were in bed together. PASSIONATE! She laughed about that.

      We know that we saw a good show. We do NOT know what was going on.

    • longtimegeek says:

      Part of what saddens me is that people have become too accepting of lying. Whatever happened to the idea that one big lie was enough to call someone’s credibility into question? Why are people trying to glean some truth out of the statements of known liars like GZ, while trying to completely discredit people who haven’t told a single non-truth?

      Casey Anthony lied up a storm and was acquitted, partially because “lying doesn’t equal murder.” I also believe that Casey Anthony’s defense team used lying to their advantage, as did GZ’s defense team. It confused the jury. And, even if the jury knew it was being lied to, it probably didn’t think it was being lied to as much as it was. Even if it weeded out 90% to 99% of the lies, enough lies got through that it affected their concept of “reasonable doubt.” Casey Anthony’s lawyer, Jose Baez, wasn’t held accountable by the Florida Bar Association. Letting lawyers get away with that level of lying undermines the criminal justice system.

      Having said that, I believe that this case goes beyond prolific lying. I believe that racism clouded people’s normal judgement, potentially beyond what they themselves are even aware of. The Eyes for Lies blog discusses this phenomenon.

      Like you, I also wonder about the jury process and what could be done to improve the selection of jurors.

  98. Rachael says:

    Two sides to a story, can you show me how to post that letter above (A letter to George Zimmerman from a black man) to my FB please?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Sure. Save it to your picture files. Right click on it, “save image as” to your picture folders, then follow FBs picture uploading procedure.

      • Rachael says:

        I was just coming back to say I got it and it is done. Thanks!

        • Two sides to a story says:


          • Deborah Moore says:

            Oh, thank Gawd for you two. All cute and helping and such.
            I’ve avoided the internet as much as I can today because my feelings have been so raw and it’s been challenging to see how some folks have to call each other out.. But, I cheat everyone once in a while, and take a peek.
            And, seeing your exchange, made me smile and I just had to tell you both so.

          • Rachael says:

            Glad I could make you smile. I’ve been crying off and on all day. I haven’t posted to FB for months, deactivated my account even. But when I saw that, it was worth reopening and posting. I’m going to be avoiding TV for a LONG time. I can’t stand the thought of all those disgusting pieces of crap making the talk-show circuit. I don’t watch talk shows anyway, but even if I were to see them while switching channels, I’d blow a gasket.

            It is going to be a long time before life gets back to “normal” for me, because nothing will be normal for me now, knowing what is out there, what my son has faced and his daughters are up against.

          • Deborah Moore says:

            I’m frying up some pork chops, if your into that sort of thing, I’ve got plenty to share.

          • Rachael says:

            I’m hungry – is it too late?

          • Deborah Moore says:

            Not too late. Just put the last pork loin and a smidgen of gravy in a tupperware box. It’s Yours!
            Enjoy and I hope you find peace this evening.

          • Two sides to a story says:

            Oh darn, I missed the chops.

            I wish I was like you, Deborah, and stayed away from the internet. I’ve been here obsessively since early morning. Probably driven all my online contacts crazy . . . on the other hand, it’s a dirty job and someone has to do it!

          • Two sides to a story says:

            Best wishes for your son and grandkids, Rachael.

            Boy, sometimes I think I should deactivate my FB account. But I have overseas friends that I ‘d lose contact with.

  99. Two sides to a story says:

    Anybody else notice how the white-haired deputy/bodyguard who always looked stern throughout the trial looked happy after the verdict?


  100. 2dogsonly says:


    ALEC Jury instruction not fully given to jury
    This is comment from Prof. Kenneth Nunnery, Asst. Dir. Of Criminal Justice Univ. of Fl.

    The most intriguing element is JN LEFT OUT A PORTION OF SYG INSTRUCTIONS which says if you are initial aggressor you DO HAVE to use every opportunity to flee. This is culpable (extreme) negligence and there WAS evidence introduced of this.

    He said Prosecution didn’t walk jury through this and Judge Nelson left it out of her instructions but as SYG was implemented to prevent Fogan from being charged, this should have been a part of it.

    A. If it is shown person was initial aggressor, then
    B. Did person use EVERY OPPORTUNITY TO FLEE.

    I thought I had read that under the SYG statue defense cited but didn’t register Judge Nelson left it out when she instructed jury.

    Thank you to everyone.

    • concernedczen says:

      That’s what I have been saying for a week

    • Wow.

      Can something come of this? Professor…?

    • Can something come of this ….???

    • Momma says:

      And doesn’t that video that is in evidence where he says he made sure to move his hand out of the way before he fired and that he had wrist control of Trayvon show that he was guilty? I would have thought that just playing that alone with none of the other witnesses would show he is guilty.

    • bettykath says:

      This was not a SYG defense precisely for this reason. It was a standard self-defense case.

    • Malisha says:

      That’s what I thought, considering the Dooley James trial. If she did leave that out (I THOUGHT it was in there, which is why I was so shocked at the verdict), then she should also be a defendant in the 1983 suit, but not for money damages, just for attorneys’ fees under Pulliam v. Allen. Maybe I got the case name wrong. US Supreme Court said a judge cannot be assessed actual damages but she CAN have to pay the plaintiff’s attorneys’ fees if she participates in the deprivation of constitutional rights under color of state law. Gladys Pulliam was a magistrate judge in Virginia (1983 case) who jailed poor defendants for misdemeanors because they didn’t have bail money. But the misdemeanors for which she was jailing them were NOT jailable offenses. She had to pay $8,000 out of her pocket for atty’s fees for the plaintiffs after a huge case and a struggle all the way through the US Supreme Court. Eight thousand dollars in 1983 money was a lot of money.

      If Nelson did not read the instruction about self-defense being unavailable to the instigator of a fight, she DID deprive the complaining witnesses of due process and equal protection. Shame on her.

      Toward the end, what with the “no rebuttal” and the “unavailable witnesses” and all that crap and the little old lady testifying in her bathrobe and the bum’s rush, she probably DID drop that crucial language out of the instructions. Shame SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME !!

  101. fulanna gaston says:

    Justice need to done

  102. riisey007 says:

    Did anybody see how disrespectful West looked and his nasty grin when they read the verdict. That sleeze knew the verdict, Taffe, Zimmerman, and all of the cult knew the verdict. I don’t care what anybody says Zimmerman looked like he was very confident. The jury had more than enough evidence for manslaughter. I dont want to hear about any of those jurors, they can go straight to hell for all I care because there was no reason for them to not find him guilty of manslaughter. You can’t apply the same law for murder 2 as you do manslaughter so that should have been a slam dunk.

  103. sadlyyes says:

    from the LA TImes

    Another Zimmerman attorney, Don West, took aim at the prosecutors. “The prosecution of George Zimmerman was disgraceful,”

    • Jun says:

      the prosecution really sucked in some parts

      i was like wtf in some parts

      all the stuff Freddy taught us here was never ever utilized or argued

      There was so much that was not used to prove the case

      why was negligent actions never ever covered? Was what Fogen did negligent in that a reasonable person would expect such an outcome?

      Why was Trayvon’s right to be presumed innocent not argued more? He was alive during this incident which means, he retained those rights. As part of Fogen’s self defense claim, he is being a plaintiff in blaming Trayvon, therefore, he should provide evidence and have some burden.

      I am still pissed they never used any timeline or use forensics to confront Jon Good’s account

      Why not hammer the screams?

      I appreciate their efforts but damn

    • Beverly says:

      It should also be noted that he was disgraceful from the gitgo…his daughters’ laughing picture, his treatment of Rachel, his disrespect for courtroom decoration, and his treatment of the Judge. It is disgraceful for him to assail the work of the State in this way; lawyers traditionally have been people of brains and class. He was the disgrace, Im sorry to say.

    • Malisha says:

      Right. According to them, Blacks should have ASSUMED Trayvon was to blame and Fogen was innocent; they should have been ASHAMED to insist that their kids shouldn’t be killed at the word of someone like Fogen. West should be taken out back and shot — oh no, that’s not fair. First give him a fair trial.

      What gets me is the idea that even Trayvon’s parents, everyone, owed it to Fogen to believe HIS version of events when he is not only clearly a liar but also a bully. Let’s just always believe the bullies.

      Who did you say was the patron saint of Pontius Pilate?

  104. kllypyn says:

    George Zimmerman is nothing more than a punk. He has always been a punk. He has a well known history of bullying people harassing people and going after people weaker than himself. he attacked an under cover police officer because he look like he was underage which is why he was undercover because he was trying to catch under age drinkers. He attacked a woman while working as a bouncer. he harassed people in that area which is why the HOA settled. He chased an 8 year old boy home. A pitty the jurors didn’t know about that. again as usual he got away with it. he will be arrested again because he thinks he can do what ever he wants because mommy and daddy and his dirt bag friends will always lie for him. he will do something else, he may even killed again because he has hit the big time and got away with it. I expect he will be in handcuffs again. it’s only a matter of time because he can never stay out of trouble.

    • riisey007 says:

      Don’t be so sure that the jury didn’t know. This jury was hand picked for a reason. Who has heard of an all female jury much less all white but one that they are not sure what race she is. Where was a couple of African Americans to balance it out and at least make them work on the verdict. These people layed up in the lap of luxury using their free wifi in the hotel and watching FOX news. Unless they had cameras in the room or took all the phones and t.v.s out along with their phones I don’t believe these people were realy sequestered. These peopel knew about what was going on in their city, they take pride in their racist community.

      • abbyj1 says:

        riisey, the defense doxed all the potential jurors through FOIA, and they knew exactly who each one was. Here we’re thinking: “Ahh. Six women! Five mothers! They’ll understand what it means to lose a child!” It never made sense that the defense was willing to go with six women, but now we know why.

        Hahaha on us. The defense already knew that these were party-line women invested in keeping the racial power structure of the community just as it always has been. They were never going to condemn one of their own to life in prison. Hindsight. Ain’t it great.

    • Malisha says:

      All those things we knew about Fogen should have come out in Rebuttal. Failing to put on a rebuttal was a giant “TELL” that the prosecution LIED. Period. They were frauds. Sexy Guy and clever Mantei and Big Bad Bernie “death sentence Dude” DLR — they were lying about wanting to pin this down.

      • Wanna says:

        Maybe that is where we should start the next phase. Any one connected to the unjust verdict holding an elected position we should work to get them out out office.

      • groans says:

        You’ve been right all along, Malisha. It was a fraud of a prosecution, and the prosecution was a willing participant in the fraud all along.

        The Governor set it all in motion – give the “public” an arrest, but make sure no corruption would be exposed – thus the prosecution voluntarily tied its own hands in furtherance of this fraud within the “justice” system.

        You called it. I had a hard time buying into it, but there’s no doubt in my mind now.

  105. Judy75201 says:

    I hate george zimmerman.

    • Sophia33 says:

      I was just about to post this! Yep. Not over yet.

    • ay2z says:


      Question: Can the federal level take control of the evidence directly from the state before any personal property (gun, clothing) is returned to the defendant?

      (* of course it may be too late as fogen has already explained on Hannity’s national show, that it’s so good the FBI, of all people, cleared him of any wrong doing’, and he went on to say ‘who better’)

      *snark alert

    • bettykath says:

      There’s a huffpost poll where just a bit more than 1/3 of respondents say the jury got it right. The other 2/3 are split between manslaughter and m2.

      • groans says:

        Thanks, bettykath. That’s encouraging … sort of. Wish it could translate into something that could make a difference and get some action taken. This case is so, so shameful and wrong.

  106. Rachael says:

    I’m pretty furious some of it with myself. I feel like we are going to see the civil rights era all over again and shit – this is NOT the world I thought I brought my son into and it is certainly NOT what I want for my beautiful little granddaughters. I feel like such an idiot thinking it was gone, a thing of the past. I feel like such a stupid, stupid white woman. I didn’t know. I really didn’t know.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I remember that era vividly and it does seem that the shameless public re-emergence of racism is pushing us into another civil rights era. That and many other issues that people should be concerned about.

      The Color of Change also has a petition –

    • Sophia33 says:

      We got complacent. I think they have awoken a sleeping giant that needs to be awoken.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Indeed, Sophia. I’m interested to see what Trayvon’s generation does with this. I think they have even less patience with this nonsense than my Boomer generation.

      • abbyj1 says:

        True, Sophia. And I hope the giant roars.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      rachael — welcome to jim crow, 2.0. this time, LE no longer has to wear sheets with pointy heads to hide their involvement. the people of florida have codified into statutes all that is required to get away with murder.

    • Malisha says:

      The civil rights era again cannot happen. We are Rome now, we have become Rome, and it concedes nothing. Rome can only fall; it cannot evolve.

  107. KateW says:

    Now his racist supporters are saying to let it go, it’s not big deal, he’s not guilty so lets all just move on. But had it been your child would the same be said, would it be that easy to brush aside. I suppose it is up to the Martins now. If they want to pursue it it is up to them. I feel for them but it isn’t right, like so many other cases of Black individuals being left to die and nothing be done about it. Brush it aside, leave it alone and if the Martins choose to do that then it is ok. It’s hard to fight emotionally, spiritually, mentally and physically against an uphill battle through racist bigots and people who simply don’t care. I am spent. I can’t invest anymore emotion into it. Those hateful so in so’s can go on for days but I hope the Martin’s press on and continue to seek all avenues of justice for their child. He can no longer fight for himself so it is up to his family and friends to do so for him.

    I will continue to allege that those were his supporters on the jury. If not murder 2 he should have gotten manslaughter because he did go after that kid with a loaded weapon. In the weeks and months following things will probably die down, hopefully not too much and justice will prevail in some form or fashion. We owe it victims of crime to push for change and demand justice.

  108. degraveegmailcom says:

    Maybe you need to be inside The usa to sign naacp petition
    because it won’t accept my postal code from the netherlands?
    Signed the other one though.

  109. My Forehead Tho says:

    Welcome to America. You’re asking for it if:

  110. trina cosbie says:

    What will piss me off is if we find out there was so serious incriminating evidence on GZ phone & text messages. Taaffe had a Freudian slip the other night on NG when a panelist asked “how did he know, was he there? & Taaffe said, “I was there, I mean I know the area cause I live there”. I can accept the verdict, but I will be po’d to find out later there was more to this & the prosecution was just trying to keep SPD hands clean, cause after all they may need their cooperation for other cases…..

    • Rachael says:

      But how would we ever find out?

      • trina cosbie says:

        I don’t know if we will ever find out unfortunately. I hope the DOJ or FBI charges GZ with something, but not holding my breathe on that. There are so many things I think the prosecution could’ve done, but to sit here now & dismantle their execution of the case is pointless & hinders the process of forward positive proactive progression to prevent something like this from happening again. I truly believe that although GZ didn’t get his due consequence for his actions, Trayvon B. Martin & family will have justice when the SYG & gun laws are revised in his honor & under his name. It is hard to think positive while still so angry, but positive thinking after a storm is what will get us to the rainbow on the other side. Sometimes we’ve got to go through some things to get to where we are going……God will always have the victory, for he keeps us highly blessed & favored!! To God be the glory forever & always!!!

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          The only thing that can upset this verdict is evidence of a mistrial. I doubt that such evidence will be forth coming. I’m looking for it, but I don’t have the skills or resources. It would probably take a bevy of law professors and highly skilled investigators to ferret it out, I’m sure it exists, but it probably won’t be uncovered or even used if it is.
          The State of Florida seems to be happy with this result, so their is no one to prosecute such a discovery if one was made.

    • willisnewton says:

      Get ready for further outrage then. It’s very likely that the state at least had the information if not the brains to assemble it, that GZ never saw Trayvon by Taafe’s house at all but instead was tipped off, arriving later when The teen was under the mail kiosk.

      Recall his story of being home with Shellie mentoring to orphans or whatever? At 6:48 or so they were calling and texting one another. I guess the living room was so vast they needed to do that.

      What’s certain is that GZ never stopped in the clubhouse parking lot at all, and the his car trolled the mail kiosk stopping dead in place for ten seconds, marking the moment he got ready to call NEN seconds later as he “doubled back” on TTL to face the mail kiosk.

      See tchoupi, whonoze and others for confirmation of this deductive reaasoning – reasoning that the state never applied to the facts of the case.

      • Malisha says:

        And John Good couldn’t even figure that out with his “rational thinking”? It was obvious. And we DID write to the prosecutors and tell them things they needed to know. And they ignored it all, have probably thrown it away. (I wrote letters on actual paper and not by computer so I could not be hacked. Pen on paper letters so they were not vulnerable to ANYONE. If they were discarded they were discarded BY the prosecutors.) All the work done here and prior to this even on other blogs — Sling Trebuchet, Tschouppi, Whonoze, others, were doing the work and turning out excellent work product. FOR the state.

        They seemed to want to convict but in retrospect I have to say that also was probably an elaborate fraud.

      • aussie says:

        There is a second chance. A chance to get the trial done as it should have been. — the civil case.

        The evidence is all assembled. It would save them having to start from scratch (and maybe get it wrong again).

        The difference between the two cases would show up the prosecution and SPD etc without anyone having to actually say anything specific.

  111. Two sides to a story says:

    DOJ is investigating! I can only hope they do it with some balls attached. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/14/justice-department-george-zimmerman_n_3595835.html

    • Malisha says:

      Don’t get your hopes up; they have no balls.

      • Two sides to a story says:


      • Eric says:

        Exactly what would the feds charge him with? I’ve heard violating Margins civil rights,but what does that entail exactly.

        • Malisha says:

          42 USC 1981 makes it a crime for STATE ACTORS (like police) to deprive a person of his constitutional rights “under color of state law.” 42 USC 1983 makes it a liability (money, civil court) for STATE ACTORS (again, like police) to deprive a person of his constitutional rights “under color of state law.” This is the way people sue police for wrongful death, if the POLICE kill their kids etc. In Harford County three white cops arrested a Black man with no criminal record, a veteran, for “tresspassing” but somehow before he got into court in the morning to be arraigned, they managed to beat him to death. A civil rights lawyer sued the sheriff’s department and some others for wrongful death. Usually these settlements are secret and nobody’s head rolls; the taxpayers pick up the bill, of course.

          There is also a provision for suing both state actors and non-state actors under these sections for CONSPIRACY to deprive someone of their constitutional rights under color of state law. That’s what should be used in this case, in my opinion, because the police, the OS, Frances Robles et al., Lee, Carter, Smith, Wolfinger, etc. etc. and the HOA (who have paid up already to get their release so as to not be on the hook for more later) were conspiring long before Trayvon Martin was ever targeted by Fogen. They conspired to keep Fogen from facing the problems that arose when HOA members registered complaints about his conduct to the police. Lee hid those complaints and threatened people — or ignored them — who were complaining. Black people were complaining. Fogen was chasing them and scaring them and putting out leaflets to watch out for their kids (for no reason) and accusing them falsely of every kind of misdeed and making their lives unlivable and causing them to live in a hostile home environment. He was taking away Black residents’ and Black residents’ guessts’ rights, and their life interest in living as free human beings in their own community. He had the complete cooperation and backing of the police in this regard. They are guilty. They should be liable. If the DOJ doesn’t want to use 1981 to say so, private lawyers and/or NAACP lawyers and/or academics should band together and use 1983 to do it. AND if any one party is held liable in any way, shape or form, for any of it, then they can also get attorneys’ fees under 42 USC 1988. It’s about time somebody put some teeth into the law that says you just can’t up and decide to take away someone’s right to live peaceably in their own lives in their own ways without due process. NO MORE BLAH BLAH BLAH.

  112. Lonnie Starr says:

    Yes, to this day Trayvon does not know who it was that attacked him!
    He never got an answer to his question of why he was being followed. Even a police officer would be sanctioned for not identifying himself before he took action. Zimmerman was no policeman, He was just some crazy stranger out in the night following an innocent child.

  113. Two sides to a story says:

    Today we are all Trayvon Martin’s mother –


  114. aussie says:

    They’ve been saying not. But it is not s defense fund anymore…….

  115. crazy1946 says:

    Since the verdict was thrust upon the memory of Trayvon Martin last night, I have had so many emotions roll across my mind that I am feeling a mix of anger, sorrow, shame, and hate. I am angry with not only the system that allowed this non justice to happen, but the state that encouraged it as well. I have made a vow to hit these a**holes where they will feel it, that is in their collective wallets! I vow to buy nothing grown in, made in, imported to, or in any way associated by any company located in the state of Florida. Produce is at the top of my list. The tourist industry in near the top of my list.
    I have seen several posts here that have been pretty harsh toward all white people, it would seem that some are so immature that they do not realize that they don’t speak for all black people nor does any one person speak for all white people! I have for many years looked forward to the day that all men were (as has been stated many times) created equal. I don’t care what color your skin tone is, it is the color of your heart that matters, if you have hate in your heart then that is what you will receive from others. There are a lot of people on this site that might or might not be black, I don’t look for a profile to see if you are or not, simply because before you are anything else, you are a person! I have been to the NAACP site (last night before it crashed) and signed the petition, as well as the one on move on .org. Where do we go from here? Do we go forward continuing to seek justice for “all” people, or do we just throw up our hands and sing OH WOE IS ME? You do as you wish, I intend to continue on a path toward equality for each and every human for as long as it takes, or I cease to breath, which ever comes first!
    If this post is disjointed or sounds confusing, so be it, I am not in the mood to go back and proof read and rewrite it, so if you don’t understand my feelings and my intentions then I am truly sorry, and perhaps later I can better communicate my feelings……. until then it is off to the hole under my rock…….

    • cielo62 says:

      Crazy- love your fighting spirit! That’s what we should all commit to doing. Equality for ALL of our children.


  116. Two sides to a story says:

    Last night’s rally in LA turned into an unpermitted march, and police shooting rubber bullets

    • aussie says:

      What do you expect in LA? the cops love any chance to shoot there, I’ve heard.

    • Malisha says:

      So, only the police were violent. How is this night different from all other nights? Oh, yeah: In Florida, non-police can be violent too.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I still can’t believe any of this. And police violent with people protesting vigilante justice and a court system that SUPPORTS this.

        The world has turned upside down.

    • bettykath says:

      Wise cops would have monitored for safety and traffic until it ran its course. But wise cops seems to be oxymoron these days.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I have a good friend who protested in NYC today. IN the evening the cops went on a rampage on a peaceful group, as if they’d just gotten an order to show people who’s boss. She said it was quite alarming – apparently they weren’t taunting the cops like the kids in LA were doing.

  117. deetruth says:

    Is money donated to a defense fund taxable?

    • fauxmccoy says:

      not usually. as i understand it, only gifts exceeding a certain dollar value (in the thousands range) are taxable to the gift giver, not recipient.

  118. LiveByTheGulf says:

    One benefit of the “Not Guilty” verdict is that now George Zimmerman may not be able to walk freely on the streets – time will tell.

    George will probably continue to wear a disguise in public, wear a bullet-proof vest, and continually look over his shoulder. Will George-in-disguise look suspicious to others – “He’s up to no good.” George will now feel a need to safeguard himself instead of a neighborhood.

    • LiveByTheGulf says:

      Who would hire George?

      • a2nite says:

        Evil racist “Fixed News” him & his buddy Taaffe will make lot’s of money on the racist NRA circuit. He’s an honorary white supremacist now. They can have him. The evil racist Rs will
        Probably get him to run for office.

    • Malisha says:

      Do bullet-proof vests cover the groin area?

      • crazy1946 says:

        Or the Knee’s? I don’t think that anyone should kill him!

        • cielo62 says:

          Crazy- believe me , a head shot, while difficult, is not protected by a bullet proof vest.


        • riisey007 says:

          I am having a hard time with that, I am wrestling with my faith and what I know to be right. I want him dead and I know I am wrong for this. I know I will get over this but right now I could care less about him and his life or his brother, his mother, his father, and his wife. He showed no remorse, and his family whom always bails him out struck again. Zimmerman is a product of his family. His mother sat in the courtroom and looked smug the same woman that his friend Osterman says used to beat Zimmerman, and his father sat there looking like the KKK, acting like he was appalled having to be there. His family just sitting there knowing the truth, they all know what he did, yet they went on t.v. and twitter and anywhere else and defamed this kid. It is bad enough for Zimmerman to kill him but they wanted to kill his reputation. That family is a cancer.

          • Big Willie says:


            I completely understand how you feel. My faith and belief know that slaughtering Fogen would be wrong. However, if I could torture and kill him, bring him back to life and do it all over again, I would! That fat greasey bastard will burn in hell for all eternity along with his klan. God has a plan and he will see to it that Fogen pays. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a more despicable form of life than Fogen. To murder a child, claim the last words that came out of his mouth as your own and collect hundreds of thousands of dollars in beyond ludicrous.

            I would not be surprised if Fogen files a lawsuit against Tracy and Sybrina. I believe Fogen has been licking his chops waiting for the opportunity to collect HOA lawsuit monies. We have not heard the last from this greedy fat monsterous bastard! He will be slinging lawsuits and cashing in, and you can quote me on that!

          • Danita says:

            Trust me I totally understand all of that. But you no all these people have to keep doing is keep living. Life always serves it’s justice in wrong behavior. What goes around always comes back 2folds. People become off guarded comfortable and move forward with life. I will use the OJ trial for example. Many know OJ killed his wife, look closely OJ is back in jail,Mr Kardashian passed away, and Johnny K passed away suddenly. Now don’t get me wrong im not sayin what it sounds like, im sayin life tends to change in mysteriously strange ways. People foggen will not escape nor his family or supporters……just understand there is something here greater then all of us. Keep the faith no person does wrong and what appears there getting away is not always true.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      God’s plan, enit. He’ll now face other juries of his peers.

    • truthseeker66 says:

      SZ words will come to fruition…fogen will have a great life. He will get a book deal and sell millions of copies. He will b a fox commentater on syg and self defense. He will become spokesman for nra. His parents will b quot ed as saying interviews he was a late bloomer. W

      They will say
      we always new georgie would b a success.
      Only in America.

      • Malisha says:

        Killing Trayvon Martin and getting off made him a success, out of an abject failure. So you CAN make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.

      • Rachael says:

        That makes me sick. How to become a success in America – go to Florida and kill a kid – seems to be a bonus if it is a black kid.

        I don’t think I can ever cry enough tears to take away the pain, disgust and shame I feel today.

    • bettykath says:

      I think it best that fogen continue to live. Let him live in fear of, well, everyone. His life is focked. And he did it to himself. Hope the feds put him jail where the rest of us, especially Black teens are safe, but let him otherwise live in fear. But the problem I see with that is that his paranoia about Black teens is likely to result in him killing another one.

      • Girlp says:

        My biggest fear with Fogen getting off is that he will kill again. He killed without remorse once what will stop him now?

  119. Big Willie says:

    Anyone ever notice how racists love to hide behind the quote
    “The jury got it right.”?

    • Malisha says:

      Remember early on, on the begsite, O’Mara said, “If you would do what George Zimmerman has done, contribute money.” ? Well the six women on this jury obviously would do what George Zimmerman did. That is the sorrow and the pity of it. More white people in Florida would do what he has done than are saying so yet, but now that this has happened, they will feel a lot freer to say so more.

      The fact that the Fogen family came from Virginia is no surprise. That was not just a slave state; it was the slave-producing state, where slaves were bred to be sold down-river. Virginia hates Blacks AND children. Double whammy for Trayvon from people like Fogen. Virginia is NOT for lovers; it is for haters and for thieves.

  120. aussie says:

    I don’t see DOJ doing anything. A lot more talk, a lot more questions, then nothing. The case isn’t strong enough. There’s a big gap between profiling because of race, or killing from hate. Stereotyping a group as thugs or criminals shows FEAR, not hate.

    The Martins have the resources to take civil action. The standard of proof for that is lower. Their EVIDENCE can be STRONGER, because if we don’t give them the facts WE have put together, we’re not doing our duty.

    They won’t have to pussyfoot about to save the SPD either, but the case should NOT be about SPD, it should be about GZ killing their son.

    Forget inquiries into the SPD etc. There are a lot worse police forces around the country and nothing ever gets done about them, either. They’d need to be corrupt for years on dozens of known cases, for anyone to take interest; they’re just average or below average. They don’t go routinely killing people like LAPD for example.

    If a civil case is prosecuted as this one should have been, it WILL be the easy victory we foolishly expected this rigged one to be.

  121. Girlp says:

    Crumps FB page appears to be hacked, they removed his pictures and are posting false information such as Obama filing a lawsuit and continuing to attack Trayvon’s character. I don’t know what will come of the petitions but I believe the laws should be changed on self defense in Florida.

    • aussie says:

      What page are you looking at??

      looks fine to me

    • Malisha says:

      It doesn’t matter to change laws in Florida; this decision shows that the laws do not apply to Blacks.

      • Malisha says:

        In 2000 in Florida Jews couldn’t vote; in 2012 in Florida Blacks couldn’t walk; a bunch of moral bankrupts getting together and writing things down won’t change that and won’t change the future for that state. That misbegotten state. It should be reduced to scorched earth.

        • aussie says:

          A bit hard on the heaps of innocent decent people who live there. And have to suffer this more than those of us lucky enough to be elsewhere. And there are other states much the same, or worse.

          If you’re wanting to call down destruction on them, you’re getting too tired to be posting, Malisha. It’s dangerously close to “drowned at birth”.

          in 2000?????

          • Malisha says:

            Aussie, you can get used to my language or not, but remember that I am not a police officer, and if I said something about people being “drowned at birth,” that would not reflect on the state’s use of its law enforcement power to protect, or not protect, community members whom I personally disliked or even hated. A police officer saying that Blacks should be drowned at birth is NOT anything similar to my literary description of an appropriate fate for the state of Florida. I have often said Germany should have been scorched earth after WWII and yet I have three good friends (one of them comments here) in Germany. You’re eager to show how unfair and prejudiced I am but it doesn’t fly. Obviously if I cared nothing for anybody in Florida I would not care about Trayvon Martin, Sybrina Fulton or Tracy Martin, and that is clearly untrue. Think what you like.

            Just to inform you, however, about my positions and my beliefs:

            I am a racist. I believe everyone born and raised in this country IS a racist to one degree or another because we are interacting with our culture at all times and we cannot un-do what we experience and we cannot un-be what we are and we cannot very easily un-learn what we learn. We CAN un-learn what we learn, though, through deliberate effort. All racists who are as racist as I am should and do go through a continuous process of unlearning the racist bullsh*t and learning wisdom. It has to take place constantly. It has to be self-mediated and rigorous and it has to be targeted like the finest immunological controlled experiments. It means constantly wondering, “Would I be feeling this way if …” and constantly answering questions in a thorough cross-examination.

            My African American and African (who are not American but who live here, or who do NOT live here but are African and speak English) friends do not consider me racist but upon occasion, if this comes up, I mention it and sometimes we actually discuss it. One of my best friends claimed I was NOT racist and we discussed it and she said, “Well if you consider THAT to be racist than I’m racist TOO” and I said, “OK, that’s possible; I’m only responsible for myself.” [This discussion had occurred at the time of the O.J. Simpson trial because I believed him guilty, but not because of racism, just because of the domestic violence issues and the general progression of domestic violence in a marriage such as his.]

            There’s racism everywhere. We shouldn’t imagine we’re untouched by it. Florida is a horrible state. I have fought out death sentences cases in Florida that have no relationship to race at all (whites on death row for killing other whites) and still have the same very low view of that state.

  122. smokeegyrl says:

    It has gone beyond the jury instructions now… you can’t go back… We can’t go back to the Prosecution statements, the Defense Statements, Judges Statements, none of it… It all goes to DOJ now… whether they want to do something about it… If you have any thing that can help then get it to the NAACP or the Moveon.org peeps… Don’t sit on it… push it to them…

    NAACP Chairman Roslyn M. Brock
    NAACP President Benjamin Todd Jealous
    NAACP Florida State Conference President Adora Obi Nweze

  123. mrsdoubtfire says:

    Meet a man who claims to be the voice of reason. Please educate this man.

  124. My Forehead Tho says:

  125. Mojo says:

    The sorrow and the injustice of the verdict is beyond words. It’s so difficult to process.

  126. diary73 says:

    There are a few issues that come to mind that must be noted:

    1. The verdict in this trial says that a teen can be followed by car and on foot by a stranger in the dark, and if this teen attempts to defend himself, the perpetrator is permitted by law to shoot and kill him if the perpetrator feels threatened by the teen at the moment the shot is fired.

    2. Jury instructions for self-defense charges are not clear about how to weigh the believability of statements given by the defendant.

    3. Jury instructions offer nothing with regards to evidence supporting the victim’s fear of the defendant.

    4. Jury instructions make to distinction for the age of the victim, especially if the victim is a minor.

    5. Jury instructions offer nothing with regards to the defendant’s creating the circumstances leading to the killing.

    It seems that jury instructions allow too much for jurors to interject their own biases into the decision. They allowed O’Mara to mess with their heads with the “he didn’t need to sustain even a scratch” statement. They did not, however, connect that his explanation about WHY he shot Trayvon resulted from his claimed injuries.

    One final thought: When O’Mara brought out the cement slab, claiming that Trayvon was “armed” with the sidewalk, all Guy needed to emphasize was that EVERYONE said that this took place in the grass FEET away from the sidewalk. Trayvon’s body was not NEAR the sidewalk.

    I am is sick right now.

    • fauxmccoy says:


      it was the jury instructions regarding self defense that worried me most. in many ways, these instructions make prosecution to be close to impossible. this is the florida legislature in action — with a lot of outside help.

    • Malisha says:

      I still do not think it was difficult to disprove “justification” for the homicide. Yes it is a difficult thing to DISPROVE that the shooter acted in self-defense, but in this case, it was actually DISPROVEN. As follows:

      1. The allegation that he got out of his truck to find an address is patently false. The cops do not need addresses from people; indeed, they have the maps on their computers, both in the squad cars and in the station house; he got out of his truck to follow “the suspect.”

      2. Fogen admitted three times that he followed Trayvon Martin.

      3. Since it would not be possible for him to get the gun out from under his ass while he was being beaten as he claimed, the only POSSIBLE alternative was that he got his gun out when he was NOT being beaten as he claimed.

      4. Even by HIS narration of the event, he did not make it clear to the teen that his accosting Trayvon Martin was a non-hostile encounter, and thus, even by HIS narration of the event, Trayvon Martin had a perfect (not “imperfect self defense” but “perfect”) right under the SYG laws to defend himself by the use of force, to whatever degree he felt necessary.

      5. Since Fogen admitted having control of Martin before “aiming” and “making sure not to miss [his] left hand” and “firing one shot,” he was not shooting in self-defense.

      So even with the burden being to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the shooter did not act in self-defense, it was proven even at that inadequate trial. It was proven. No instruction cures that.

  127. HeresLookingatYou says:

    Forgive typos I’m just still stunned

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      Don’t worry about typos I been accused of worst by GZ supporters on this blog acting as though they are supporting our cause.. Typos are fine with me….

      • aussie says:

        There are no GZ supporters here.

        You are abusing the Professor’s hospitality in his own home by your accusations against his other regular guests.

        This hostility is not acceptable, and is getting quite close to getting you barred.

        If you don’t like it here, LEAVE. Goodbye.

        • cielo62 says:

          Aussie- I believe EIEIO refers to people like me who called him out for being a troll when he posted scads of negative and demoralizing BS while we all waited anxiously for the results. Today he’s all Mr Sunshine with his own petition. That’s good, but I won’t forget how his posts caused more damage than good.


  128. HeresLookingatYou says:

    These jurors should never open their mouths
    I’m sure in there day to days lives they profess to be good truthful upstanding citizens truth tellers and seekers…
    Well they shattered that ..they are no better the law breaker they freed
    The truth was in there face and they ignored it…
    They didn’t, care about that child…
    They failed Trayvon..
    They lied on him
    I hope they reap what they sowed…
    I would not want to rise the morning knowing I freed a murderer and know that t child’s blood is on my hands..
    I hope Trayvons screams and pleads haunt them and the murderer
    I hope the Martin’s sue The Murderer for wrongful death like the Goldman’s …that’s if t hey can find a fair jury…

    My faith in the system is shot right now ..so that’s probably not possible either.

    • Malisha says:

      I hope the “hold out voter” mentioned by Frank Taaffe is outed to her family and friends somehow. I think it is obvious that the guards who brought the jury their food, etc., were carrying tweetable messages out and doing illegal things during deliberations. I hope the woman who was too cowardly to vote her conscience (since she is the only one I believe actually has a conscience) has problems from this decision for the rest of her life. I hope her children, if she is not the only non-mother there, find out about her cowardice and disrespect her for it.

  129. smokeegyrl says:

    The White House
    “The death of Trayvon Martin was a tragedy. Not just for his family, or for any one community, but for America. I know this case has elicited strong passions. And in the wake of the verdict, I know those passions may be running even higher. But we are a nation of laws, and a jury has spoken. I now ask every American to respect the call for calm reflection from two parents who lost their young son. And as we do, we should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to widen the circle of compassion and understanding in our own communities. We should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to stem the tide of gun violence that claims too many lives across this country on a daily basis. We should ask ourselves, as individuals and as a society, how we can prevent future tragedies like this. As citizens, that’s a job for all of us. That’s the way to honor Trayvon Martin.” —President Obama: http://wh.gov/laNQE

  130. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    Donald v. United Klans of America
    Michael Donald Lynching Case

    Nineteen-year-old Michael Donald was on his way to the store in 1981 when two members of the United Klans of America abducted him, beat him, cut his throat and hung his body from a tree on a residential street in Mobile, Ala.

    Angry that an interracial jury had failed to convict another black man for killing a white police officer in Birmingham, the Klansmen selected Michael Donald at random and lynched him to intimidate and threaten other blacks. On the same evening, other Klan members burned a cross on the Mobile County courthouse lawn.

    The two Klansmen who carried out the ritualistic killing were eventually arrested and convicted. Convinced that the Klan itself should be held responsible for the lynching, Center attorneys filed a civil suit on behalf of Donald’s mother, Beulah Mae Donald vs. United Klans. In 1987, the Center won an historic $7 million verdict against the men involved in the lynching.

    The verdict marked the end of the United Klans, the same group that had beaten the Freedom Riders in 1961, murdered civil rights worker Viola Liuzzo in 1965, and bombed Birmingham’s 16th Street Baptist Church in 1963.

    The group was forced to turn over its headquarters to Beulah Mae Donald, and two additional Klansmen were convicted of criminal charges.


    GZ believes he is innocent hopefully the DOJ and FBI will give him a rude awakening.. West said “bring it on!” Don’t worry West it is coming!

    My friends – Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. Galatians 6:7

  131. My Forehead Tho says:

    Said this since the beginning of this case, the only thing that made Fogen’s story(s) believable is his victim’s skin color. I’m sure there is no doubt in anybody’s mind that had Trayvon been a few shades lighter and Fogen told the same story, he would have been convicted of murder 2 last year.

  132. smokeegyrl says:


    Mark O’Mara tells @mattgutmanABC Zimmerman will get gun back + would use it again. Says his client needs it now more than ever ‪#‎ABCWorldNews‬

  133. RobertSF says:

    For what it’s worth, I don’t think the NAACP’s website is down due to high traffic. Last heard, the petition had 15,000 signatures. This is 2013, and websites no longer go down over a few thousand visitors. I think the website has been the target of an attack instead.

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:


    • I believe you’re right.

    • MollyK says:

      I think you’re probably right. I read somewhere that they were asking people to use the MoveOn petition instead.

      How low some people have sunk.

    • aussie says:

      I just did a tracert on the NAACP site and it just keeps timing out on the last hop.

      A denial of service “attack” would be a large number of simultaneous attempts at getting onto a site. That’s how it’s done. Keep calling it until you exceed their capacity.

      It is more likely this has happened by accident, by GENUINE people trying to call in such numbers that the capacity has been exceeded.

      Modern or not, they’d only have what they’d normally need. It’s not a matter of how big the servers are. It’s a matter of how many simultaneous internet connections they can handle. Or that their website host can handle. A few thousand all at once.

    • FactsFirst says:

      me too

    • Malisha says:

      I’d have to agree.

    • Sabrina B. says:

      I was able to sign via response to email that was sent to me which came through on my phone.

  134. smokeegyrl says:

    My thoughts are blank right now. I feel bad that you live in place where the Justice System is not for everyone. The word Equal Justice is not a true statement. Someone mentioned two cases and if you look and compare the overall of all the SYG court cases and divide them by governmental class of race. Who has been found Guilty and Not Guilty by the color of their skin, you will see the difference. The SYG laws were created not for all races but only rather one race and it seems this has been proven in the southern states where closet radical groups have hidden themselves in parties such as the Democrats, Republicans and so forth. It’s gotten so that a lot of us don’t even trust political parties. They have branched far out even to Colorado and California. Colorado Springs being one of the biggest cities that house KKK and White Supremacy factions. Fort Collins is another one. We have SYG laws here too… I don’t trust it. Nobody here trust it either… Our CCW laws here can carry a gun but you have to leave your gun in your car not on your person… the only way you can carry a gun on your person if your job calls for it.

    I’m still sick about this verdict thing. I will never mention that mans name again ever. I will only say the killer of Trayvon Martin. I am asking for a Boycott. I am signing all Petitions. I am angry. I am asking God for help! yes I said it God! Praise be God! I will never deny Him! The Justice System Failed! BUT the Justice System in in God’s Kingdom will NOT FAIL!

  135. Carmen says:

    Get a license, ID and vote in 2014!

    • willisnewton says:

      And pass the literacy test, and pay the poll tax, and wait seven hours in line at a polling place in a gerrymandered district of all “safe seats” after being subjected to unlimited lying attack ads funded by corporations and the oligarchy…

      Byt yes, vote. If you don’t vote you’ve got NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN. And if you are going to complain, be sure to do something about it, too.

    • LiveByTheGulf says:

      If you’re in Florida, register to receive your ballot by mail. That way, when the GOP governor restricts early voting and the lines are miles long in “certain” polling areas, it won’t matter. Just fill out your mailed ballot and mail it in.

  136. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    If I hear another media pundit state “Justice Is Blind” I definitely will choke…its isn’t blind….

    When each KKK juror walked into that box their individual opinion was formed. GZ innocent! They just had a vacation on Sanford.


    • ay2z says:

      I noticed last night, a smile from Judge Nelson. She rarely gave glimses into what she was thinking during her court, and this was not a ‘friendly’ moment, it was a ‘work’ moment.

      Surprised me.

      • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:


      • Xena says:

        What surprised me was that Judge Nelson did not ask neither state that the victim’s family was not expected for the reading of the verdict.

        • truthseeker66 says:

          I’m glad crump had them stay home. Could u imagine how hurtful it would if been for the fogen kkklan smirking in their faces? TG they were not there.

        • aussie says:

          It was arranged beforehand that they would not be present. I saw it mentioned the day before.

        • ladystclaire says:

          They were not present for the reading of the verdict, because of threats directed at them. this trial was a big let down to say the least. there was so much that the state did not introduce as evidence in this case. they didn’t really present anything like I thought they would.

          Why did they not unseal his correspondence from his text messages as well as his emails. poor Trayvon’s privacy was not considered at all. I’m beginning to believe more and more, that this trial was fixed last April 2012. I’m also beginning to believe that, he did indeed talk to Angela Corey when he drove to her office in Jacksonville. there is something not right about how this entire trial turned out.

          • Danita says:

            Totally agree what about the written statements from officer Smith, one said one thing and the other statement claimed he removed the gun at the police station, what about how Serino and Singleton on tape were so suspicious but when they arrived in court everything changed before our very eyes. Serino coward down like a puppy.What about the vehicle foggen drove no one brought that up. I know theres more i just cant think right now but so much was either twisted, forgotten or not even addressed.

      • MollyK says:

        What do you think the smile meant? Was she happy with the verdict?

        • Malisha says:

          Everyone knew before the verdict was announced, what it would be. Isn’t that strange?

        • Xena says:

          I think she was happy to go home for the night, just like the jury.

          Don’t know, but the last 2 days of trial before closing arguments appeared to be really rushed. IMO, having a sequestered jury compelled Judge Nelson to rush trial. West taking a day and a half to humiliate, denigrate, and repeat his interrogation of Rachel Jeantel was to take time away from the State.

          A verdict reached by way of tricks and deception by defense attorneys, is not a just verdict. West and O’Mara didn’t win. Rather, deception and lies won.

  137. My Forehead Tho says:

    This chart, according to PBS, and the link is in the tweet, represents likelihood of a killing be found justifiable according to race:

    • willisnewton says:

      I suppose on some level we were all fools for thinking this case would be any different than the trends indicated.

    • What is a 350% percent likelihood of a justifiable killing?

      • MDH says:

        It means there is a 3.5 time more likely justification when compared to white on white.

        For example, if the justification rate is 20/100 for white on white murders, then white on black would be 70/100.

        IMO, that graph is alarming.

        Common sense would tell one that the actual facts in white on white or white on black murders average out to indicating the same rate of justification. So in an objective world, one would expect to see minimal variation.

        The 350% number clearly demonstrates a large bias based on perception.

        Like the ruling just given didn’t already tell us that.

        The bias would be that those making the ruling see something in black people that warrant justification of their killing that goes beyond actual fact that they don’t see in whites.

        The same shit goes on with stop and frisk in NYC.

  138. Shari/pensive says:

  139. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    I just called my relative who works with the State Of Florida. He and I believe someone tape that altercation and refuse to come forward. He believes the FED or DOJ may have access to the info.

    It was difficult for me to understand with all of the ipads (that I can’t use), iphones and smartphones, there had to have been a nosy person somewhere.

    • John D says:

      Are you even serious?

    • Yorazigo says:


      Could this be possible? I would think that if this were true such a tape and/or witness would have been subpoenaed? Can anyone refuse to testify in court?

      • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

        During our discussion our minds were leaning towards if the individual exist he or she did not say anything to anybody. If one is out there lets pray God works on the individuals conscience after this criminal was set free to walk the streets again.

  140. Jasmine says:

    Do you know when I felt my stomach clench??? It was when the defense brought that woman who had had her house broken into by 2 Black males. I knew then that a guilty verdict was not going to happen. I wonder why it wasn’t objected to. Trayvon had nothing to do with those burglaries so why was it implied. Why did O’mara use that as an argument. So all Blacks must bear the burden of of Blacks crimes. I knew then that it was over.

    • Jasmine says:

      ‘of of’—of other

    • BillT says:

      GREAT point, indeed the state should have objected to every word of her testimony, she was not a witness to anything, she had no knowledge of the case before the court and for that reason could NOT possibly added anything probative to the case.

    • concernedczen says:

      Her testimony was irrelevant and should not have been allowed.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I don’t understand why there wasn’t more objection by the prosecution.

        • Danita says:

          Now were cooking with gas, that was my point as well. MOM objected alot when BDLR was questioning people, but prosecution witnesses were damn near taken apart on the stand.Im still tryin to understand why prosecution didnt have an explanation as to what happened, their story so to speak. The animation video killed chances of guilt because they had something to look at. The prosecution dropped the ball period….

    • RobertSF says:

      As an aside, that burglary was entirely preventable. The woman testified that she heard knocking and looked through a second-story window to see who it was. Seeing it was two black men she didn’t know, she shrank in fear. Not getting a response, the burglars assumed nobody was home and proceeded to enter.

      She should have stuck her head through the window and called out, “Hey, what do you guys want?” The burglars would have run since burglars don’t want any trouble; they just want TVs.

      • deetruth says:

        I was thinking the same thing

      • truthseeker66 says:

        RobertSF, wrong. She had the righ t to not answer her door. Same thingiingiii
        Happened to me 3yrs ago. Hispanic teen banging on my door looked out of window. I did not know him. I don’t owe him anyth
        Gaing. I went back to my chores next thing he is tryingvto jump through open window. I stop there here. Pt is he had no right to invade ny home.

        • RobertSF says:

          That’s like leaving the keys to your car in the ignition and then insisting people have no right to steal your car. It’s true, but…

          • Two sides to a story says:

            I’ve lived in rural situations where I didn’t have to lock doors, but why live in an urban area and leave a door unlocked, especially if you’re busy upstairs? Makes no sense.

      • concernedczen says:

        I agree. She sounded really stupid saying she saw 2 AA youths at her door, so she hid in her bedroom.

        Also, I think she exaggerated the story since she is pals with zimmerman and a Mitt Romney supporter

  141. My Forehead Tho says:

    These jurors essentially said:

    You can follow a child at night, grab them and if they fight back, murder them. As long as you claim self defense, give self serving statements, lie, make the child appear like the aggressor (no matter how ridiculous and illogical the claims are), and have no witnesses, you can get away with it.

    These 6 jurors better pray to God that their child isn’t put in a similar situation that Trayvon was put in, for they made that possibility a lot more likely. The hispanic/black juror with 8 kids has the most to worry about.

    • Shari/pensive says:

      If it happens to their child FOX news and the media will condemn the killer and he will be swiftly brought to justice. No way a white child would be left without protection.

      The state of Florida was afraid to humanize Trayvon. They bought into the thug smears. I have watched many murder trials and one thing missing here was LIVING SMILING pictures of the victim. Why? They were afraid Trayvon would be bashed? Too late, the killer and his minions had been doing it for a year. It would have been nice to see the state speak for the victim during the trial as they are supposed to.

    • Romaine says:

      murders of all kind will have a field day with this verdict.

      • My Forehead Tho says:

        Yep. They now know that all they have to do is call the police, make their victim appear “suspicious”, follow them to a secluded place, start a fight with them (push/grab them), murder them, claim the victim started the fight, say they feared for their life, and walk out of the police station as a free man.

        • Tee says:

          This is my point now what do as a black woman with a black son? I guess I I take him to the gun range.

          • Malisha says:

            You get armed as well, Tee. But then again, that’s just exactly what the NRA wants. A country at war with itself and everybody paying the gun guys to feed our fears and make them real.

          • aussie says:

            NO,. don’t.

            If he ever has to use a gun to defend himself, he won’t survive his arrest.

            I don’t know what to tell you that will help,, but don’t make it more dangerous for him.

          • Danita says:

            Move its the law that won this case, it was so confusing and misleading. But Frank T did say to nancy g he had inside info that it was one juror and he was right. Even when foggen came out did anyone notice the slight smirk on his face……

  142. John D says:

    I feel like we’re owed an explanation Professor Leatherman. I feel like you’ve just been telling us what you think we wanted to hear for the last year and a half for donations. And, frankly, I’m offended. I think Zimmerman did wrong, but I’ve had a little too much of the Kool-Aid from you, and I won’t be giving you another penny.

    • MichelleO says:

      Please explain yourself: are you saying that the professor had some role in the defense of fogen? Or are you saying that he had some magical powers that he withheld from all in order to render this sad verdict?

      • John D says:

        I think he was feeding us soup regarding the chances of this prosecution being successful. He told us what we wanted to hear. I’m just very disappointed. I feel so let down. All of the other legal experts seem to be saying the case against Zimmerman was legally weak.

        • cielo62 says:

          John  D~ Tell ya what Johnny. Why don’t you just go back to those legal analysts? You’ll be so much happier and so will we.


          • John D says:

            I’d rather go to a pro-justice site where the Kool-aid isn’t so plentiful. What Leatherman just wrote is ridiculous and he knows it. That’s not what happened. What happened was a manslaughter type of situation, that he otherwise might have been convicted of if not for the histrionics.

          • cielo62 says:

            John~ Either way, quit bitching HERE and leave. I trust what Leatherman has said to be correct. Unfortunately there are too many variables to EVER know how a case will end up. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. However you are NOT entitled to insult the host of this blog. If you don’t like the program, change the channel.


        • RobertSF says:

          I can understand your disappointment and frustration, but don’t take it out on Mr. Leatherman. He may have been optimistic for a better outcome, but the jury’s verdict is not his fault.

          I’m disappointed that the jury took so little time to return an acquittal. It makes it seem almost as if they had preconceived notions. Like the wealthy widow marrying his young secretary, they waited just long enough to make it seem respectable. It doesn’t seem that they were torn by the verdict at all.

          But I’m even more disappointed in the prosecution. Frankly, it left lots to be desired. Many opportunities were let slip by. The two biggest mistakes the prosecution made was, one, introducing Zimmerman’s statements to police, and two, failing to develop a theory of the crime.

          They didn’t have to introduce Zimmerman’s statements to police, and if they hadn’t, the defense couldn’t have either (because they’re hearsay). That would have put a lot more pressure on Zimmerman to testify, which would have allowed the prosecution to cross-examine him. Getting him all tripped up in his own lies would have greatly increased the chances of conviction. Instead, the prosecution introduced defense testimony that couldn’t be cross-examined.

          The prosecution also spent most of its time poking holes in Zimmerman’s story, but that means they played it like a defense team. That was never going to work. The prosecution needed to do far more than merely raise reasonable doubt about Zimmerman’s testimony. They needed to develop a theory and prove it with the evidence and the timeline. They needed to tell the jury not just what didn’t happen but what did happen, and they never got around to that.

        • aussie says:

          NONE of the other “legal expert” commentators ever said anything about the LAW. They just sprouted opinions. Bigoted ones mostly. In the few cases they mentioned a law it was the wrong one, or they applied it with no regard for the evidence.

          It is not the Professor’s fault this thing didn’t go down according to the law.

        • Xena says:

          @John D.

          He told us what we wanted to hear.

          I think for myself.

        • longtimegeek says:

          Have you watched MSNBC, especially Lisa Bloom? Have you watched The Young Turks? There are a lot of people who see the truth, including legal experts in the media.

      • cielo62 says:

        MichellO~ LOL! Get ‘im! That comment John made was truly silly!


    • cielo62 says:

      John D~ Feel free to feel that way. Leatherman taught the LAW as it is, and NO ONE can predict what a jury will do, especially in such a racist state as Florida. I have donated before and will continue to do so. You are quite free to leave.


    • Beverly says:

      That is an unnecessary attack. Mr. Leatherman cannot change the facts. Most of us think Zim did wrong, so what is your point? It appears that maybe you want an explanation from the jury, and that may not be forthcoming.

      • John D says:

        I think the Professor’s over-the-top rhetoric represents the mentality of why we lost this case. This was a manslaughter case from the beginning. The professor offers some kind of gloom and doom scenario that just doesn’t line up with the evidence. I have to think he is smarter than that. This should have been charged as manslaughter and all the hyperbole, conspiracy theories, and melodrama should have been dropped. Then maybe there would have been a conviction.

        • concernedczen says:

          You are wrong John D. This was a murder 1 case. The boy was screaming and begging for his life and was shot anyway. There was intent and premeditation.

        • If you were right, the jury would have convicted him of manslaughter.

          • Soulcatcher says:

            I was just going to post the same comment professor.

            Had our vote here been taken, he would not walked out a free man, but that’s not how it works. In America, they prefer a jury that doesn’t have all the information and evidence, and a court system that allows friends and family to lie on the stand. You can even buy youself a whitness, open the yellow pages, pull out the visa, and let them know what you want to hear. You know when a cop pulls over some one and finds he is a cop, they look the other way, thats how it works in the judicial system.

        • cielo62 says:

          John D~ And you’ve been a trial attorney for HOW long?? Yeah, right.


        • Malisha says:

          Boy is that out of line. Did you get onto this blog by mistake or do you just not want to take the time to read or listen to the evidence?

        • disappointed says:

          John they could have convicted for manslaughter, but they didn’t. Professor believed what he believed because he knows the law. Now like Tampa -Sanford has their 6 village idiots back home safe and sound.
          I do blame the jury BECAUSE they never consider the fact Trayvon had the right to protect himself from some retarded fuck with a gun… I do not blame the Professor, I believe if he were on the jury Fogen would have been convicted.

        • Xena says:

          @John D. Golly gee whiz John! You should have been on the bench in the black robe last night to answer the jury’s question to clarify manslaughter!

        • Sophia33 says:

          Then why didn’t they convict of manslaughter? They had the choice.

          • Xena says:

            They jury foreperson submitted a question to Judge Nelson to clarify manslaughter. She thought it was too vague and the attorneys wrote a response asking for a more specific question. Rather than submit a more specific question, the jury announced they had reached a verdict. Thus, they reached a verdict without understanding manslaughter.

            Their verdict of not guilty is not subject to being overturned, but if the jury foreman discouraged narrowing the question down to be specific, then fair justice was raped, had its throat slashed, and hung upside down to bleed.

        • Malisha says:

          “It was a manslaughter case from the beginning” is sophistry. Manslaughter does not occur when you have one person actually going after another person, with a loaded gun, with a grievance (he was just like those bad people who broke into Bertalan’s house; the fucking punk; he’s trying to get away; he’s up to no good), with an agenda (the admirable zealous very effective neighborhood watch guy) and zeroing in on that other person with ill will and doing something that any non-depraved person KNOWS can cause death. A manslaughter case is a killing that was an unintended consequence of something negligent, NOT something deliberate and intense. If Fogen were walking his dog and Trayvon came up behind him and terrified him, and he shot Trayvon dead, manslaughter. Since Fogen went hunting for Trayvon and shot him dead, murder-2.

          Besides, this idea that people forced the jury to acquit by the fact that they supported (or even brought) too high a charge is just a form of racism in disguise. I’m sick of seeing it; the people who demand accountability for a killing are blamed for the fact that the killer is not held accountability.

          Let me tell you a story. True story. There was a child molester in Rockland County, New York who had apparently been having sex with his two daughters (ages 6 and 9) and had transmitted an STD to them so that the older daughter had pelvic inflammatory disease and ended up in the hospital being operated on. The surgeon made a report that although he originally thought it was a case of appendicitis, when he opened the child’s abdomen he saw that her appendix was pink and fresh and not inflamed, but that she had a cup and a half of turgid, infected pus in her pelvic cul de sac. The pre-op intravenous antibiotics had made it impossible to get a lab report on exactly what bacterium had caused this, but in a child that age at her stage of sexual development, there were no rational alternatives to “penetration by infected sexual partner.” The surgeon called in the report of suspected abuse to the child protection agency but they refused to conduct an examination (the father’s lawyers were influential and wealthy) so the child was sewn up, sent home to daddy without a discharge summary from the hospital, and not evaluated.

          A group of activists started a ruckus and there were the inevitable news articles, protests, marches, signs, and organizations. Then the whole thing was effectively covered up and the child being in the total care, custody and control of the suspected abuser, she never disclosed again (although she had disclosed at first).

          Later, a journalist called the medical examiner of the county, himself very well connected to the prosecutor’s office, which in turn was in charge of the cover-up for the CPS agency. She asked him what had gone wrong with the case. He said, “the child was molested, no doubt about that. But we couldn’t do any investigations because the out of town activist made too much noise about it; if only they had avoided all that strident complaining we could have done a proper investigation and nailed the guy and protected that child.”

          Now, logically, how the Hell does that work. Only if the cover-up is left ALONE and nobody carries on about it can there be a proper investigation? Only if outside influences are careful not to step on any toes or to “exaggerate” the problems caused by a cover-up can there be a proper investigation?

          It’s just another form of blaming the victim. Blame whoever tried to advocate on behalf of the victim.

          Professor Leatherman has led an outstanding evaluation of this case: the murder, the cover-up, the law, the parties, the issues. Shame on anyone who wants to blame the horrible racist bigoted outcome on one of the helpers who was trying to protect the innocent FROM the guilty!

          • aussie says:

            Makes perfect sense to me. Without the nosey outsider, they can do an investigation that clears everybody involved. With the outsider watching they can’t clear the father so they botch the investigation instead. Simples….

          • Two sides to a story says:

            My God, how could any government agency allow that kind of abuse to a child continue. Oh, well, oops. Seems to happen all the time in America.

            One of the jurors who made the final six complained of the outsider component, if I’m not mistaken. Or am I confusing that voice with the one who said the peaceful protests in Sanford were riots?

            I think what angers me most about this case (in addition to Trayvon’s death) is that now people parroting their false narratives think these are true just because a killer was let go by a jury.

    • Malisha says:

      John D, out of line, out of line. I’m dismayed by that comment. Who cares what you drink.

    • DruDo says:

      You’re criticizing Mr. Leatherman for daring to have faith that justice MIGHT be done? How dare you. If you don’t like his opinions and hope for justice, then slither away and go where you might be welcome.

    • Judy75201 says:

      Have you even posted before? lol.

    • Susan Moore says:

      I am an attorney and feel the need to speak up here. No attorney ever knows what a jury will do or what a judge will do. We are experienced advocates and analysts, not gods. I think Professor Leatherman’s analysis has been outstanding and highly educational, and of course, he never promised an outcome. He never promised us a rose garden.

      People really underestimate just how much pain honest lawyers feel in the face of injustice. They work extremely hard and have experienced so much injustice to their clients and to themselves, and they have devoted their heart and soul to what they do. Honest lawyers are often subject to great and dangerous harassment from the governments they defend their client’s from, and they have to live through it and never really complain because they never forget that the client’s interest has to remain their number 1 obligation.

      Whatever Kool-Aid you’ve been drinking, it wasn’t Professor Leatherman who was serving it to you. And you’ve got a lot of nerve kicking him when he is feeling down. Who needs your chump change anyways.

    • elcymoo says:

      Speak for yourself, John D, but don’t include ME in your ‘we’. Frankly, I’m offended by your over-the-top rhetoric. I suspect that you’ve imbibed too much Kool-Aid, but it wasn’t dispensed here.

    • BillT says:

      John D you could not possibly be more WRONG………out of respect to this forum that is all i have to say to you.

    • Wanna says:

      You have bumped your head. The Professor has been a light that has guided us thru a legal quagmire. What ever you gave it was not enough.

    • DruDo says:

      Sumpin’ tells me yuo’re a CAC. A Zimmerman perhaps?

  143. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    The world will be healed when its people cry more easily for others than for themselves.


    • Danita says:

      My take on this whole thing is about the fact that a white mans’ life is worth more then a black teenager. There has never been an absence of that fact. Michael Vick gets a sentence for being involved with killing DOGS, Placico B shoots himself and gets jail time. Chris Dorner tells the truth about LAPD officers, goes on a killing spree and gets haunted down and set on fire. Thats just a few examples. A racists is a group of people who are able to dominate and control another race.That is not black.This country has been consumed with the sense of entitlement that White people have patrolled for centuries. No disrespect to anyone on this panel honestly. The truth always pisses you off before it sets you free. Zimmerman was set free for a number of reasons’ first there was a major connection with the sanford police department.Secondly zimmerman set the stage, john good played the eyewitness, and the doctor at 400 per hour drove it on home. I was not surprised at all. No black jurors and the prosecution had a say.Take a look people look at the trial and follow with open minds.This case was won from start by the defense someone or many had a lot ridding on this case. The question is who…..there was more to this then anyone will ever know.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      My understanding is that gz has never had the capacity for compassion or empathy. Nor has it ever been shown that his family, his lawyers, the SPD, most of the HOA, most of Sanford……ever could focus on the fact that Trayvon is dead through no fault of his own.

      Never heard them talking about a precious, wonderful kid being dead. All I heard were tearful explanations of how gz was a victim, how gz had such terrible injuries…….you know the story.

      Then, for haters and racists + media outlets to take it to the level of desecrating Trayvon’s name and memory and honor by telling what a thug he was…….!

      No this all came from people who cried only for themselves and their fears.

      Such people have no capacity to cry for the real victim, the real person who had legitimate fear, who REALLY looked death in the face.

      No, there were more people than just gz who have displayed depravity!

      • pat deadder says:

        Yahtc Says There were more people than gz who displayed depravity.Amen.I feel ashamed of people in my white race.Why why have we always had the need to dominate other people Chinese head tax.Jews not allowed in our hospitals opened their own,Japanese ww2 interment camps they had never lived in Japan,Natives we took control of their resourses,Irish changed their names to French names,Blacks told them where to live who they could marry,and on and on and on My God what is wrong with us,What are we so afraid of.I don’t understand.In this case I feel ashamed of Serino,Singleton, the judge,BDLR.not the defense team I knew what they were from the beginning,My son just called and said so it seems if you want to murder a black kid just move to Florida.I’m sorry I’m just so appalled I just don’t know what to say.

  144. My Forehead Tho says:

    I’m thoroughly disgusted in these jurors. Not one of them said:

    1. Fogen was the initial aggressor, which evidence suggest that he remained the aggressor.
    2. Fogen’s a liars
    3. Evidence shows that he never intended to go back to his truck
    4. Rachel’s testimony refutes Fogen, the liar’s, claim of Trayvon approaching him and confirmed the contrary
    5. That Trayvon may have been standing his ground
    6. That if Fogen did murder this teenager in cold blood, he had legal knowledge of how to get away with it, hence the lies

    What disturbs me the most most is none of these jurors considered the fact that Trayvon, the innocent teen who was being stalked and followed, may have been defending himself. None of them took Fogen’s hatred for Trayvon before the confrontation and his lack of remorse after it as a sign.

    • Unabogie says:

      I’m avoiding the news today. Have any of them spoken?

    • MichelleO says:

      They took Trayvon out of the equation entirely. It’s almost as though His Lordship went for a leisurely stroll, only having to frightfully come into contact with a lower form of life, and consequently; having to resort to actually ‘touching” this lower life form in order to prevent a case of cooties.

    • a2nite says:

      Because black people aren’t human. Our menfolk are scary monsters.

      Hide the white women. White women gave a strong message, protect us, from scary black males. They must be guilty of something.

  145. Carmen says:

    This is not about OJ, so bear with me one moment.

    My mother told me that after the OJ verdict, some people treated OJ like a hero (because finally people of non color realized economic disparity in our justice system).

    The hero worship lasted for a few months and then no one wanted to be associated with OJ, he had become to risky, he had become a pariah. I expect this shall soon be the fate of the Zimmerman Klan. Soon no one will want to be associated with them. Like OJ, GZ’s money will run out and he will soon be in trouble again. (Although I believe OJ was set up in the armed robbery bust.)

    • MichelleO says:

      I didn’t support OJ because I believed him to be a “hero,” something I distain, because this case was not about “Heroism.”

      I didn’t think that the prosecution did a good job, and had loaded it’s witnesses with bigoted LAPD, and had sloppy coroner practices.

      OJ was mainly hailed because for once, a black man could receive justice—-and only because this time, a black man had money to get it.

      • Carmen says:

        I do not really care why you supported OJ, what I am saying is that in a few weeks, no one (CNN, FOX etc) will want to be associated with that family.

        GZ’s money will run out and he will soon be in trouble again.

        • cielo62 says:

          Carmen~ And his trouble hasn’t ended yet. There’s still the Wrongful Death trial, and hopeflyy an FBI and/or Dept of Justice trial. The more the merrier. Bankrupt the the entire racist family and their stupid supporters.


          • Carmen says:

            I hope I am wrong but, Going by HolderI’s last statement, I do not think the DOJ will go after Zimmerman for civil rights. It is not as clear cut as the James Byrd case or Matt Shepard. The likelihood of getting anything from the civil trial seems iffy as well.

        • MichelleO says:

          I don’t really care what you think that I think about OJ. This is America, and America media always hosts and employs it’s bullies. Wishful thinking, but the Zimmerman’s will have jobs and lots of interviews in the coming days, weeks, months, and years.

    • 2dogsonly says:

      OJ’s BFFs were not supportive. When Johnny Cochran got a change of venue to poorer section, case was won. Not to take anything away from Mr. Cochran( he was great in moving issue to N word) and prosecutors , and Judge Ito nicely complied. But OJ’s world was not Black, it was actually green.

      Fogan’s world is exactly same as his jury was. He’ll be a hero to them and will probably be given a spot on Fox.

      What we can hold onto, is he really is an empty shell. Serino said his “flat affect” was shock but he knew and we all saw it at his verdict. He also shunned his father who was desperately trying to touch/ hug him. I think West came to see Fogan as son he never had but Fogan barely made eye contact or shook their hands.

      If you want to see, croaker queen 123 has all trial days….just zip to the end. Fogan will stiff them too. Apparently, his supporters have noticed his extreme lack of emotion as I saw a comment from Jr. Saying he’s showing happy face in private.

      Normal B/P, H/R right after shooting someone, calm demeanor during police interviews=complete sociopath 10O%. And he will strike again.There was many acts that never made it into mainstream. Standing up his own depo in a civil case, stiffing his attorney in that case , letting Barbara Walters bring her entire crew to interview him and blowing her off.

      No one else matters to Fogan except for him and guessing Dawn but no one else.

  146. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    When the media started saying the Grand Wizard of the KKK was buying Coca colas for the entire family outside smiling and giggling as if nothing was going on. FIXED!!

    Did anyone notice when they introduces Judge Zimmerman, Sr. they never asked him what he did for a living. He was a magistrate judge with connections. RIGGED!!!

    Look at Zimmerman’s father and tell me if he doesn’t look like the Grand Wizard of the KKK. I have asked myself how many black young boys or men did he falsely accuse of a crime they didn’t commit?

    • JustDues says:

      zim’s father looks like the Grinch that Stol’ Christmas. I hope the entire clan gets it, for stealing Trayvons voice, they are all liars

  147. esentrick says:

    I couldnt have said it better:

    A young man’s post on Facebook about Zimmerman’s future quickly went viral Sunday.

    “For the rest of your life you are now going to feel what its like to be a black man in America,” Alex Fraser wrote.

    “You will feel people stare at you. Judging you for what you think are unfair reasons. You will lose out on getting jobs for something you feel is outside of your control. You will believe yourself to be an upstanding citizen and wonder why people choose to not see that. …
    “I bet you never thought that by shooting a black male you’d end up inheriting all of his struggles.”

    Fraser added, “Enjoy your ‘freedom.'”


  148. Ripley says:

    The devil is dancing by this unjust vertic but what did we expect from 5 1/2 white women from Florida i will never set a foot there ….RIP Trayvon B Martin

  149. PYorck says:

    As far as I have seen it has been the main news headline on every channel here in Germany. Before the verdict there had been little coverage for a long time.

  150. This is from Facebook: Jermaine Paul’s status.
    about an hour ago
    How cool would it be to live in a world where George Zimmerman offered Trayvon Martin a ride home to get him out of the rain that night?

  151. kllypyn says:


  152. bettykath says:

    Several years ago I was in a discussion with a Black woman activist who indicated that the Blacks in her community were really afraid of what whites would do to them. I had recent experience that many whites that I knew were afraid of what Blacks would do to them. It was clear that the real problem was that we really didn’t know each other and that led to fear. While it’s obvious that her fear was justified based on so many things, how can the fear that whites have be recognized and dealt with? The fear is irrational and therefore hard to overcome.

    Overcoming the attitude of white privilege and the resulting racism is a problem for whites to solve. It is not the responsibility of Blacks.

    There are dyed-in-the-wool bigots that are filled with hate. I don’t know what to do about them except possibly find ways to marginalize them.

    But there are many who really don’t know that they are racist. They need to be confronted when they use words or take actions that betray their white privilege attitude or racism. Some of them will take it to heart.

    Some people really aren’t racist but sometime say or do things that are hurtful. A couple of examples.

    1. A very qualified Black woman is being interviewed for a job and is being shown around the facility. Her white interviewer remarks how well/happy everyone is, even she. “She” was a Black woman. EVEN. The woman being interviewed recognized the subtle racism and recognized that the interviewer didn’t have a clue. She said nothing, but she remembered it enough to share with me a few years later.

    2. An older white man gets in an elevator with a Black man and asks him to hit the button for his floor. Done. White man says, “attaboy”. Black man gives him a brief lesson on why he won’t accept being called “boy”. I asked a dear friend who hasn’t a discriminatory bone in his body whether he would say “attaboy” to a Black man. He hesitatingly said, “it’s a compliment”. I said, “to a Black man to be referred to as boy?” Light on.

    My point is, we all have a lot to learn. We need to continue our dialogues to be better accepting of each other. We (whites) need to reach out to those with the irrational fear and help them see the extent of their white privilege so that they can better see the social and economic disparities between themselves, just b/c they are white, and those who do not have the advantage of white privilege.

    • Malisha says:

      But Bettykath, wait a minute:

      the Blacks in her community were really afraid of what whites would do to them. I had recent experience that many whites that I knew were afraid of what Blacks would do to them. It was clear that the real problem was that we really didn’t know each other and that led to fear. While it’s obvious that her fear was justified based on so many things, how can the fear that whites have be recognized and dealt with? The fear is irrational and therefore hard to overcome.

      Bettykath, you’re admitting that the Blacks fearing what the whites would do to them is not an irrational fear. Nothing could make it plainer than the TM Murder Case that the Black fear of whites is REAL and is RATIONAL. So with respect to your question of how the whites’ fear can be “recognized and dealt with” my suggestion is that it need not be — because it cannot be — and the REAL ONLY PATH to decreasing the very real, rational, reasonable and rightful fear that Blacks have is this:


      That is the ONLY way. We can’t wait around for people like Fogen to stop feeling “afraid” of people like Trayvon Martin. Their irrational fear (and I don’t even believe Fogen had fear; he wanted to kill Trayvon Martin and thought he would get away with it and he has) is their own damn problem. IF they want to ACT on it, however, they need to be put in fear that they will NOT get away with it.

      Can our society do that?

      My short answer is: NO.

      My long answer is: NO, NOT in the post-Trayvon world.