John Guy delivers State’s Rebuttal Argument in Zimmerman trial

Friday, July 12, 2013

Good morning:

John Guy will give the State’s rebuttal argument in a few minutes.

Here’s the link to the livestream coverage.

See you in court.

1,116 Responses to John Guy delivers State’s Rebuttal Argument in Zimmerman trial

  1. Dee says:

    I think they will come in as a manslaughter charges that they will give Zimmerman if this was not bought by anyone. Because we have to realize hid father was a judge with favors of course. If he didn’t call in a favor, then he is going to prison. However, as you have seen, his father was falling asleep in court, looks as though his not worried too much about his son, being possible charge with a murder charge. Even Zimmerman was sleeping at times as well. Even so, through it all, I really think that they will come back with manslaughter.

    Manslaughter in the First Degree (reckless killing). The actor engages in conduct knowing that there is a substantial risk that the conduct will cause the death of another person. The typical example is playing Russian Roulette with another person. There is no intent to kill, but a death results nevertheless.

  2. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    They are back!

  3. pork que says:

    Guy said a teenager would get off of the telephone if they were planning an attack/assault

    hmmm ….

    The Killer DID get off of the phone and DID plan his attack/assault

  4. disappointed says:

    haha Mr Softie. This is really better the second time around. Mr Guy comes across as though he really cares about Trayvon like all of us.

  5. YQ says:

    One things for sure: this SHOULD change everyone’s views on profiling. I work in retail and we have to do it there, but IF we are suspicious of someone, it’s always important not to prejudge and treat the person like a criminal BEFORE he committed the crime. We’re also taught to defuse the situation by doing our job and approach that person like everyone else. If the person’s intents are not good, you will know once you acknowledge them and try to find out their business of being there.

    Fogen didn’t do it that way although he should have.

  6. sadlyyes says:

    wasnt much evidence was there? the ear buds were very powerfull i thought.what teen would leave in earbuds,during a big fight.Tray was ambushed imo

    • Sabrina B. says:

      Yep. Which is why most of the items he had was still with him, near his body.

    • YQ says:

      And why would he fight with an iced tea in his hoodie pouch? Why was the bag of snacks found by the body if the fight moved 40ft? Fogen dropped that keychain flashlight when he spotted Trayvon and pursued him. But he kept that tactical flashlight even though he said it wasn’t working. Serino said it was working fine. That tactical flashlight was found scattered with the rest of the evidence, clearly indicating that this was where the fight began.

  7. KA says:

    Okay, this is profanity laced and a little crude, but I have to say….it helps restore my faith in humanity….

  8. chi1224 says:

    Does anyone know the hours of deliberation? How late today and can/will they meet over the weekend?? Anyone know?

  9. My Forehead Tho says:

    CNN did a poll after closing arguments:

  10. Abraham Jones says:

    I don’t know about folks here but I feel that although the prosecution did a decent job, there were so many other opportunities for them to drive their message home but they simply dropped the ball. I’m frustrated and pissed off that they simply did not go after zimmerman’s throat. For example, notice how the defense used that recent photo of Trayvon to show to the jury? That was clearly a move to sway them into thinking, “this was not a kid but a man.” Due to the angle of the camera and the position, it portrays Trayvon as this towering monster who was full of ripped muscles. The defense deliberately went through this kid’s Facebook account and chose the best picture that would drive their idea home with the jury. Think about it. An all woman jury of mostly white women who have been feed the idea all of their lives that black men are animals and have no self control. The defense deliberately chose this picture to villianize this kid and it truly pisses me off. What the prosecution should have done in return is bring up both the recent photo of George Zimmerman who’se now weighing 300 lbs plus and the one of him when he was much slimmer before he murdered Trayvon. Once bringing those pictures up, the prosecution should have then said while pointing at Zimmerman, “people of the jury, this is not the George Zimmerman that Trayvon Martin had to contend with that night. And then while holding up the picture of the slim version of Zimmerman, I would have said, “this is the George Zimmerman that Trayvon Martin had to deal with.” The one that was taking MMA training 3 times a week. The one that was a bouncer who was fired from his job because he was too rough with a female patron.” I would have laid it all on the line because the defense’s plan along, since a year ago, was to paint Zimmerman as a soft, unathletic, overweight guy who could not have possibly threatened of approached Trayvon. They told Zimmerman to gain weight for this trial. This entire show put on by the defense is a shame and they are the ones who have been trying to put up smoke and mirrors to confuse the jury. I just pray that these ladies have the intellect to see right through their BS?

    • whonoze says:

      (‘thinking out loud’ in response)

      A number of us agree that “there were so many other opportunities for them to drive their message home but they simply dropped the ball.” But perhaps it’s telling that we don’t agree what opportunities they should have picked up. It makes sense that they can’t harp on every little point: the jury would get lost in the weeds. It’s easy to second-guess the fact-to-emotion ratio, and totally fair to do so, but maybe harder to identify the specific points that would have made the case even stronger.

    • Dee says:

      Don’t give up yet I think that they are going to give Zimmerman a manslaughter charge thinking that this will be a slap on the wrist. Not understanding that the gun charges could give him 30 years. I seriously don’t think that they are going to find him innocent.

  11. Sophia33 says:

    I don’t think we will have a verdict until tomorrow at the earliest. The jury has a lot of evidence to wade through and they seem to be wading through it.

  12. nocamo33 says:

    I hope I don’t sound sexist, but regardless of the outcome, I feel that because these jurors are women they may be more apt to work together towards an actual verdict as opposed to hung jury. I think women tend to be more insightful. I think because women generally tend to be more in touch with their emotions, they are more apt to deal with the emotional aspect and reach a conclusion faster. The emotional aspect will not cloud their judgement (though will likely inform it). My wife tends to ask me to do certain things (not just chores) that I think she is fully capable of doing. But she is just not comfortable doing. She prefers also to be the comforter of the kids and I the “bad guy” disciplinarian, so to speak (we share roles, but we also have our strengths). For us that works out well. I want to be the bad guy and I feel better about “coming down” on my kids, knowing she will be there to comfort them (even though I know she is on my side). I say all this to say, my wife is extremely insightful and sees things in ways (or expresses things in ways), I simply cannot. She constantly opens my eyes or shares perspectives that I just didn’t catch (maybe because she is much more detailed than I). It’s those nuggets of wisdom that she can glean out of a situation or distill the situation down to, that I think is a talent/ability/gift/power/strength (whatever you want to call it), that IMO, many women possess or are more likely to than me (or maybe I am wrong and it’s just my awesome wife! :). Again, I started out apologizing for coming of “sexist”, so please forgive me. That said, I think a reasonable jury that has these abilities (male or female) will have great discernment. Still praying!

  13. whonoze says:

    MSNBC reporter: there are more cameras covering the protestors in front of the courthouse than there are protestors.

  14. disappointed says:

    I am re-watching Guy’s closing. I love how he pointed out the 10 foot timeline minus the fucking punks/assholes.

    • Dee says:

      Where do you go to look at it over?

      • disappointed says:

        some body posted it above.

        • Dee says:

          Now I am looking for the statement I heard on CNN that the Zimmerman family said. They are acting as though they know that their son is going to be freed. However, I cannot find it, if anyone knows or heard this put it up please. I am not to up to date with the computer.

  15. Dee says:

    The family sent out a message as though they know that Zimmerman is going to be let free. I hope this man didn’t call for a favor. Because he was a judge, and these people are not playing our game they are playing their.

    • boyd says:

      their faces did not express it the last 2 days. they looked worried

    • Sophia33 says:

      What did there message say?

      • Sophia33 says:

        They don’t sound confident to me. They are already talking about their distrust of the judicial system. This is what the Fogen Family statement was:

        “From the onset of this tragic event, our family has been clear to express our trust in the judicial system. A jury of one’s peers is the hallmark of our country’s judicial system. The American justice system is the finest in the world. George’s fate is now in the hands of the jury, who will make their decision based on evidence and the facts of the case. As we await a verdict we will remain hopeful and ask for the public to remain peaceful, no matter the outcome. Though we maintain George committed no crime whatsoever, we acknowledge that the people who called for George’s arrest and subsequent trial have now witnessed both events come to pass. We hope now that as Americans we will all respect the rule of law, which begins with respecting the verdict. The judicial system has run its course — pray for justice, pray for peace, pray for our country.”

  16. Nellie Nell says:

    LOL I thought they were coming back with that Guilty verdict when I heard JN speaking while watching the closing on Youtube since I was working today and missed part of it!

  17. YQ says:

    What’s the jury question?? Is it verdict time???

  18. whonoze says:

    Bashir is hammering MOM for his introduction and justification of racial profiling in his closing. Go get ’em Martin!

  19. fauxmccoy says:

    o’mara’s wife standing in front row behind him … **shudder**

    • DruDo says:

      I thought that was Osterman’s wife? I really have no idea.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        wftv says o’mara’s. apparently he likes them significantly younger and blonder. either that or the lady has had massive amounts of cosmetic surgery. o’mara is no youngster even if he does like to throw out goofy animations and the ‘spidey sense’ cards.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        eh — maybe it’s his daughter (wftv says wife though). they were either born with the same chin or have the same surgeon.

  20. Mary Davis says:

    Everybody, lets pray that the jurors do the right thing.

  21. Something is going on. I don’t know how the jury question was worded, but after talking with West, Fogen and family tried to leave and they escorted the family back into the courtroom.

  22. whonoze says:

    Question was just a request for a comprehensible inventory of the exhibits in evidence.

  23. Nef05 says:

    Under seal? We don’t get to see? Little late for what amounts to a gag order, JN

  24. whonoze says:

    West has switched to Altoids today.

  25. Sophia33 says:

    So there are three transplants on the jury. That somehow makes me feel good too. Not just a bunch of Sanford natives filling the jury pool.

  26. My Forehead Tho says:

    1 1/2 years of waiting. This is so suspenseful.

    The jury of mothers will make a statement with their verdict:

    1. Its okay to profile a kid, follow him at night, chase him, possibly grab him, and murder him, if he fights back- not guilty

    2. It’s not okay to profile a kid, follow him, chase him, possibly grab him, and murder him, if he fights back- guilty

    • fauxmccoy says:

      yup — i have said that jurors are charged as the gate keepers of their community. they alone decide who loses their freedom because of reckless actions. their verdict announces to the world what they think is appropriate in their community. i know how i would rule — that we all have the freedom to go about our daily activities unmolested. either way, these jurors are announcing what their community will tolerate. the rest of the world can then make up their own minds about the juror’s community.

  27. Judy75201 says:

    The live stream just popped to the seal from the NBC globe.

  28. whonoze says:

    Just saw an interesting interview on MSNBC between Martin Bashir, and attnys Park and Crump. Martin clearly things the State’s case could have been stronger, and that they should have brought out that TM was racially profiled. (I.e. Bashir is totally J4TM and worried the State might not have done the job.) Parks and Crump defended the prosecution against some hard questions from Bashir. Between the lines, they said, well, we agree with you on race, but we had to play it the State’s way for political purposes and jury psychology. Recommended if you can find the clip on the web later.

    BREAKING NEWS: The attnys have been called back to the courtroom to answer a question from the jury!

  29. tonya B says:

    oh lord

  30. Malisha says:

    As I would have expected, Professor Jonathan Turley has come out announcing that Fogen should be acquitted. Half of his thread about this is filled with his bloggers showing that there are plenty of Black kids around 17 years old beating white pregnant women to death and doing other horrible things, as if that is the obvious explanation of why it was AOK to kill Trayvon Martin.

    I think people like the good Professor (T, not L) don’t even realize what social forces are working on them when they create the historical record. I wish I could say that 200 or 300 years from now there will be enlightened Americans looking back and saying, “This was an indication of how barbaric our country was in the 2100s, but frankly, I believe we’re headed steadily and not too slowly into a form of corporate racist, hate-filled neofeudalism that will control the “history” of our failed experiment so that this cannot occur.

    I have a kid and I just love him to pieces and wouldn’t have traded having him for anything in the world but I do hope he does not give me any more descendants; I think we need to slow this ship down because we surely cannot change its course.

    Still I believe Fogen will be convicted.

  31. Rachael says:

    Everyone is going to the courthouse – jury has a question. Happens all the time, could just be they want to have the reenactment or something replayed, or a question about the directions – but court will resume so we will find out.

  32. Sabrina B. says:

    Jury has a question.

  33. tonya B says:

    jury asked a question …………..

  34. Mary Davis says:

    The jury has a question.
    Wonder what it is. Please Lord let it be the right verdict. GUILTY

  35. bellesouth says:

    The jury has a question!!!!

  36. Puck says:

    Jury has asked JN a question.

  37. boyd says:

    They should return Guilty verdict just for the cheesy animation

  38. Yorazigo says:

    I’m so nervous waiting, but commentators seem to think jury will work to get this done tonight so they can go home.

    • Sophia33 says:

      I kind of thought that, but I also think they will take this seriously and take as long as it takes.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      The commentators have been saying that GZ would be acquited.
      I don’t believe we will see a verdict today. I am very pleased that the jury has asked for a list of the evidence. I think that means they will really go over the evidence.
      When I first became aware of this case, I thought GZ was morally guilty but I wasn’t sure if he was legally guilty.
      The evidence however convinced me he was legally guilty, so I think it is a god sign the jurors are going to pour over the evidence.

  39. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Upon my husband’s suggestion, we are going for a ride on this beautiful, blue sky day. We will be stopping at a stand to get some black raspberry ice cream.

    Do any of you want me to bring some back?

  40. Dee says:

    That so called animation had Trayvon hitting him with his left hand, when he is right handed. I guess he thinks everybody can use both hands like he can. That’s why his nose is damaged on the right side. Because he probably struck himself in the face with the but of his gun, which most likely caused that cut as well on his nose, by hitting himself in the nose with the but of his gun.

    • Rachael says:

      The scrape mark on Trayvon’s hand is on his left hand (which kind of shows to me that IF he hit GZ with his left hand (which I don’t believe he did) it was a defensive move on Trayvon’s part – because as you say, he would otherwise use his right. But since he has a scrape on his hand, they say it is proof he hit GZ

      • Yorazigo says:

        I believe it was a defensive wound, too. Or, in alternative could have happened before GZ grabbed him.

  41. boyd says:

    How do the Jurors reach 2nd degree Murder? Hannity and his friends say it’s impossible, I thought the Judge would never let it get that far if not possible.

  42. Unabogie says:

    No video of John Guy yet?

  43. elle says:

    Benjamin Crump and Darryl Parks on MSNBC after the break!

  44. Yorazigo says:

    OT, but in very old case in Massachusetts (Boston strangler), they apparently have found DNA on one of his victims and are exhuming Desalvo’s body to confirm that he was in fact the strangler. Interesting. I believe he was arrested in the early 1960’s.

  45. Sophia33 says:

    What is this phone call that was made that went in with the jury?

  46. fauxmccoy says:

    oh dang – i did break down and turn on the TV
    MSNBC reporting that BDLR has won the last 48 of 49 trials he has prosecuted. maybe he knows more about florida juries than we do.

    • Sophia33 says:

      Maybe. I had no idea that was his record. I now understand why he is winning that award.

    • Rachael says:

      I know – I saw that!!! I’m watching MSNBC right now too.

    • ZCBest says:

      BLDR is a beast.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        he is certain impassioned about his job! i have really enjoyed watching him throughout this whole process – since the first pre trial hearing. have watched them all and he was diligent in pursuing this. i feel bad for him that the initial investigation was so compromised as it was something he had no control over.

        • ZCBest says:

          You said that perfectly. He has been stellar and inspiring to watch. He certainly inherited a mini mess.

  47. Yorazigo says:


    Thank you so much for your efforts and your blog. I’ve expressed my appreciation here verbally and otherwise.

  48. Rachael says:

    Did he go over again that how would GZ be screaming with his nose pinched shut and his mouth covered (as well as blood running down the back of his throat) and that the screaming was silenced with the gunshot?

    I know he said it before and I know they have the evidence, but I really want that to stand out – among all the other things.

    • jodiwankanobi says:

      he said that if trayvon was pinching his nose as he said, then where was the dna evidence.

      • Rachael says:

        Drat. I mean they made so much about the screams that I thought that the jury should be left with that – but hey have it to listen to and they have GZ’s BS accounts too. They’ll figure it out.

  49. jodiwankanobi says:

    wftv just talking about how peaceful all the rallies were before the trial, no rubbish, no damage, everyone showed respect and how all they see at the moment is more peaceful demonstrations outside with families.

  50. Mary Davis says:

    I think the media is trying to start something.

  51. ay2z says:

    If fogen escapes this, may I suggest that he head on south and hide. (or if he can manage it between verdict and renewed bond until appeal, that would be better yet)

    He can always send Postcards from Paraguay.

    Bit off more than he could chew, either way.

  52. degraveegmailcom says:

    Thanks to croackerqueen123

  53. Ty Flair says:

    We will see now what Trayvon life mean to these jurors.

  54. diary73 says:

    The following are a few verses from a larger rough draft. My heart is filled with sorrow for Trayvon’s parents and for all parents who have had to endure such pain:

    Why did he have to die that night,
    That dark, rainy, Sunday night?
    He left for snacks,
    A walk and a talk,
    But never returned to his teenage life.

    Why did HE have to lie that night,
    That dark, rainy, Sunday night?
    His sinister plot
    To steal his screams,
    And steal the rest of his teenage life.

    Assumptions took his life that night,
    That dark, rainy, Sunday night.
    Viewed as scum,
    Being up to no good,
    And not deserving of hid teenage life.

    -R. M. Covington
    AKA Diary

  55. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    He needs something.. 30 is fine… Wonder can he walk to the frig anytime he wants to get fatter.

    Trayvon loved fried chicken according to his mother he can eat her fried chicken any longer.. so sad…

    • ay2z says:

      Oh, I’m sorry, but I have to play one more Knophler tune, for it’s title value if nothing else… about the fogen and his love of mystery meat entrees.

      Baloney Again

  56. sparger says:

    i watch too much television. TV will have you believe the tapes would be cleaned up of background noise and blood splatter experts will show up. Real life is dull.

  57. Rachael says:

    So that asshat MO’M is already talking? He makes me sick.

    • gwynne says:

      I think he’s busy bulding contacts, wants a job like baez…come to think of it, boy, the two of them would make quite an annoying analysis team.

  58. Sophia33 says:

    I had to leave for a bit. How long has the jury been deliberating?

  59. sparger says:

    Are the alternates still sequestered?

    • Rachael says:


      • sparger says:

        Have any of them made a statement. There is usually an alternate on TV saying how they would’ve voted.

    • ay2z says:

      Could be wrong, but once the alternates were given their documents to take back to their respective employers, to prove that they were in court on jury duty throughout the trial, they will be released from duty.

      I think this would be after the jury has begun deliberations, and assume that this may have been immediate as they already had lunch break.

  60. Dee says:

    I truly believe that they are going to come back with manslaughter, because they do not want to give him life. Not realizing that manslaughter hold 30 years with all the gun charges. And I truly believe since JN did not see any remorse from Zimmerman only laughs. That she will give him the full amount. She is known for watching body language, and believe me. She has been looking at Zimmerman’s.

  61. THE Shadow says:

    My God.
    Absolutely riveting. Powerful. Mesmerizing.

  62. I missed Omaras cartoon, so what to know is, did it show his clients amazing feat of getting his gun while laying on his back, being smothered, and almost beaten to death?

  63. jane parsons says:

    If I understood the jury instructions, GZ merely had to “feel” threatened, in order for the jury to agree to self-defense. Did I understand that correctly?

    • No, his fear of imminent death or serious injury must have been reasonable and his use of deadly force was necessary to prevent it.

      • MedicineBear says:

        But how does the jury know this? I thought the jury instructions were very unclear about this and also unclear about what’s the difference between “reasonable doubt” and a different level of doubt. Does the jury have to figure this out on their own?

  64. ay2z says:

    I was introduced the the music of New Orlean’s Sweet Emma Barrett her Preservation Hall Band.

    The recordings are as they are, recorded in the early Preservation Hall conditions live, and read somewhere, dirt floors and all.

    This may not be ideal for low quality speakers, but look her up sometime when you can instead.

    (finally finally, Sweet Emma is becoming recognized in YouTube postings, and even some of her albums are available again)

    Closer Walk With Thee

  65. nocamo33 says:

    OK, seriously, what happens now? Are the PROS and defense and everyone else waiting at the courtroom? Did everyone go home? How will we know if a verdict has been rendered?

    • jodiwankanobi says:

      i think they will all be close by ready for when they are notified that a verdict is in…..they will announce it on the news and everyone will file back into the court house.

      they are saying on wftv that they are expecting a verdict today.

      • jodiwankanobi says:

        sorry i meant that we will know about it from the news, those involved will get told via text or phone call i suspect

      • elle says:

        Jodi, who is expecting a verdict? The media? The attorneys? The Martins? Did the channel specify who “they” are? Thank you in advance. Sorry to be a pain.

        • jodiwankanobi says:

          hi elle, just the 2 guys that are covering the trial said they are expecting a verdict today….they didn’t say why…but they are actually not so bad to listen to, they seem pretty impartial.

      • nocamo33 says:

        Nice! Hopefully that will payoff. The jury has been away from home for a long time now. They have had enough time to digest the evidence. If they can work as a team and get through all the evidence and distill it all down to what matters most – weighing only the information that holds bearing on the verdict and eliminating the muck – there is no reason for them to not be able to cast their ballot end of day today.

  66. dasha says:

    White privilege allows me so many things, big and small. And it apparently allows me to wear a hoodie in the rain. Until this case, I didn’t even realize that was one of the things I get to do that is risky for others. In how many more ways am I blind to white supremacy? In how many more ways are my fellow humans subjected to treatment that flies beneath my radar– and it flies beneath my radar precisely because I’m white.

    Why can’t we have a national conversation about race in America? Initiated by white people.

    • nocamo33 says:

      I think it will start with the “true supremacists” having a conversion experience, if you will. Also, their children and grandchildren saying, enough!

      • dasha says:

        Yeah, but you don’t have to be a klansman to unconsciously act in racist ways. Subtle, seemingly imperceptible ways that aggregate over a lifetime.

    • dianetrotter says:

      Because, unlike you, many people are unwilling to address their true feelings and fears.

    • willisnewton says:

      Nelson Mandela called for truth and RECONCILIATION meetings in post-apartheid South Africa. Like we saw in this case, the road map is already marked, we just need to follow the lines to the truth and the light.

      • dasha says:

        So, hopefully the truth has come out in this case. How can we get to the reconciliation when a substantial chunk of people apparently deny the actual facts?

    • KA says:

      dasha –

      You are very right and I cannot agree more. White people (of which I am one) need to take a very loud and visible stand against racism, racist thoughts, racist assumption that many of us many not even be aware that we have.

      There are many unspoken messages that are given if someone if reared in a predominantly white are with limited access to nonwhite influences. We need to take those things hostage and refuse to support systemic racism and white privilege any longer.

      I have to say, that about half the support I have seen on pro Trayvon forums have been from Caucasians. There are surely some nasty racists out there, but the support I see, especially during this trial, gives me hope that more and more people of all races are realizing the injustice that exists in this country.

  67. Rachael says:

    So how long do y’all think this will take?

    • sparger says:

      It would take me 10 minutes. I think they will take first 5 minutes electing a foreman and then 15 minutes to complain about boring Don West and Mark O’Mara.

    • nocamo33 says:

      Good question. I personally think they will be back before the end of the day. Unless they have some serious questions about “reasonable doubt” issues and there is something they believe the defense said that resonates as true. I can’t imagine what that might be. I think for their own sake, I would want them to be methodical and have a clean conscience about it. For that, I personally could wait. Though I am eager to hear back!

      Another thing, do they shackle the convict immediately or does he get to go home and then turn himself in sometime later, say after sentencing?

    • breelee says:

      I asked the same thing upthread. My guess is 3:00pm tomorrow.

    • Rachael says:

      It is so hard to guess because of course I already know for sure how I feel – not just beyond a reasonable doubt but beyond a shadow of a doubt.

      I guess it depends on how long they spend looking at the evidence.

      • MedicineBear says:

        I really think they want to spend time watching all those videos that they couldn’t hear well in court. I would also think they’d want to discuss it all very thoroughly amongst themselves because they haven’t been able to talk about it!

  68. Stormwatch says:

    The FBI will deal with Lee, Wolfinger, Carter, et al.

  69. dianetrotter says:

    Pundits on msnbc are talking about Guy’s ref to non-racial case. He then gave a reverse scenario. I believe he did not want to make white jury feel like they were on trial. Many people like to think there is no racism. racism would be a distraction here.

    • deetruth says:

      I think he put responsibility on them – if they are honest with themselves, they would know if their decision was based on race or not. While no one else may ever know their true answer, it still puts the burden on them to know their own hearts. I liked the way he handled it.

  70. My Forehead Tho says:

    So this is what the media defines as “rioting”? Last time I checked, these were protest, peaceful one’s at that:

  71. breelee says:

    Oh dear God. MOM saying poor fogen wont have a normal life if found not guilty. Will have to fear everyone, even his neighbors. Gee, isn’t that what Trayvon went through? Wasn’t he the hunted one? gmafb, poor softie fogen. barf

    • Rachael says:

      He’ll probably be safer in prison than out, but either way, convicted or not, he loses.

    • MrSykes says:

      To hell with him. Trayvon doesn’t have a life at all.

    • Malisha says:

      He will have to fear everyone, “even” his neighbors? It was his neighbors whose lives he threw into chaos, caused them a civil liability over a million dollars, KILLED one of them, implicated others, drove them all to move away, drove their property values down, made them live in a high-crime neighborhood whereas they had previously lived in a low-crime neighborhood, made them aware that nobody is to be trusted! Still playing “poor me” card? He better get the Hell over that!

    • Malisha says:

      But REMEMBER: He told Hannity and he told America he had NO REGRETS.

    • deetruth says:

      He should have thought about that before he committed the crime. He could have gone to Target, bought his normal cold cuts, made his normal sammich, watched his normal Sunday night tv shows, gone to his normal job, and made his normal neighborhood s. But no, he decided to play cop and see how is firearm works, so he gave up “normal”. I was his choice.

      He can now start a “New Normal”.

  72. Mary Davis says:

    Where is racer, I’m ready for the victory party. Yes I’m just that confident.

  73. nocamo33 says:

    nocamo whistling, wringing hands, kicking an invisible patch in the ground. Thinking “What do I do with myself now?” As he eagerly awaits the guilty verdict.

  74. Woow! says:

    I wonder why MOM didn’t call Wolfinger to testify about why he did saw not need to arrest CAC. He was bold enough to call Lee.

    • willisnewton says:

      Are you being facetious? Wolfinger ran and hid under a ROCK. He refused to answer any questions from any reporters, and announced quitely that after decades he’s not run for re-election. He’s utterly disgraced and possibly the target of a federal investigation, we can’t know yet.

      He refused to speak with a PULITZER PRIZE winning investigative reporter from “the paper of record,” the NYT. (dont get me started on the paper itself, but he’s as close to an unassailable journalist as we have in the USA.)

      He’s under some dark cloud and won’t come out for anything.

      That’s not to say he’s proven guilty of ANYTHING. But he’s acting like a man who has a lot to answer for and won’t.

  75. Woow! says:

    Ex Chief Bill Lee has been become emboldened since testifying for MOM.

    We have not heard a peep out of Lee since he was let go of his duties as chief of police. Now he is jumping to get interviewed to push the narrative that Bonaparte did not include him when allowing Martin and Fulton families listen to the 911 tape. He also subtly insinuate or let the interviewer insinuate without correction that he had not completed his investigation.

    If I remember correctly, Lee held a news conference saying he was not going to arrest CAC b/c evidence indicated his acts were self defense.

    If Lee had already decided self defense, what further investigation was he going to do?

    Lee is upset his black boss pulled his hoe cord and told him to sit his a$$ in thr hallway.

    If he wants to follow MOM and try and say Bonaparte did something wrong he best think again. Some higher ups may offer him on a platter b/c the investigation into SPD is still under investigation by the feds (I so hope they are).

  76. whonoze says:

    As we wait for the verdict, I would like to thank Professor Leatherman for providing this forum for all of us to express whatever is on our minds about this troubling case. I cannot imagine how any of us would have been able to deal with this without a place to variously think out-loud, question, vent… The limitations of interactions between participants exchanging text messages on a blog have been painfully apparent at times: the inevitable flame wars and what not. That goes with the virtual territory. But the issues here are not ones we should keep unto ourselves — both for the sake of our individual sanity, and for the sake of something like social responsibility and awareness. Warts and all, the Internet age has given us a valuable opportunity. But, of course, the technology itself does nothing. Had Professor Leatherman not given this forum to the Martin/Zimmerman case, we would have been stuck with naught but the virtual sewers of discourse on HuffPo and the like. So, again, Mason and Crane, my sincere thanks.

    • ks says:

      Indeed! X2!

      • dianetrotter says:

        Thank you Professor for providing a peaceful place for discussion. We are many from different walks of life that were able to communicate, collaborate, anticipate, and sometimes pontificate.

    • willisnewton says:

      I’d like to point out that forums like this are where data dumps are crowd-sourced examined and peer-reviewed until the truth is sifted out and teased from the mire of the information age.

      To put it bluntly, I think bloggers got closer to the truth of what happened that night than the State did. And for that I’m grateful to the Prof and Crane.

      • Ann says:

        you are exactly right, I think, and I love the way you described the peer-review and sifting phenomenon. The internet is changing the world and humanity so quickly, these connections we have.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Hear hear!

    • elle says:

      Well said, Whonoze! I would have lost my mind without all of you, even though I only just started commenting. Thank you Professor and Crane, and thank you everyone here for saying what I wanted to say better than I ever could!

    • Rachael says:

      Add me to that list for sure!

    • Christopher Charles says:

      yes, yes. Thanks to all who worked for Justice 4 Trayvon. The Martin/Fulton family need our continued prayers. I am amazed and inspired by their resolve, dignity, and class. They are beautiful.

    • lady2soothe says:

      Please add me to the list of grateful people for the time and effort the Professor, Crane and all the commenters have provided. ❤

  77. My Forehead Tho says:

    These pundits are ridiculous. Why can’t they admit they’re wrong? :

    “If a guilty verdict comes backs it’s because the judge read the instructions too fast”

    “If the jurors follow the law he’ll be acquitted, if they follow emotion he’ll be convicted”

    “There’s a possibility that a fear of riots will influence the jurors decision to convict Zimmerman”


    • abbyj says:

      MyForehead, Agreed. That is such B.S. Plus, the jurors have individual copies of the instructions with them, and they are able to ask for guidance and advice at any moment.

    • sparger says:

      No matter what happens no one is rioting. At the most there will be a barrage of angry tweets and blog posts.

      That being said that lying bastard needs to rot in jail.

    • nocamo33 says:

      I will add asinine to that. Why is it politically driven prosecution to seek justice for a dead kid? The very people that claim race-baiting, politics and media manipulation are the corrupt racist media, politicians and business leaders that are so blind to their own hatred they cannot see the irony. The “if Trayvon was white question” or “what if it was your kid” questions will be asked again by the right person at the right time and then these fools will be silenced.Until then, we have to put up with their insanity!

    • ay2z says:

      Too fast? “noo need to take notes,” JN said clearly at the biginning, too fast for the pundits?? Because JN continued… NO NEED TO TAKE NOTES now as the copy I am reading will go back into the jury room with you.

      • nocamo33 says:

        They look for every excuse and try to legitimize them. What is wrong with a human being the tries so hard to believe a lie? What is so important about this particular lie? What impact does it have on their daily lives to believe Trayvon is thug, set the real thug free and be sure they are heard and chime in on it, regardless of their lack of understanding of actual facts in the case?

      • MedicineBear says:

        Oh, but it’s six wimmens — they may not even know how to read by theysefs. And how will they know how to think without us telling them? How will they know not to sit around and talk about hair and makeup all day.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      turn off your TV 🙂 you’ll be happier for doing so.

  78. Yorazigo says:

    Darrell Parks just gave the greatest interview. As all those associated with Sybrina & Tracy, such class! I have so much respect for them.

  79. breelee says:

    Watching all these Sanford leaders saying how great they are, and how they care pizzes me off. They talk of change… I’ll believe they care when they give us a damn good reason that tox wasn’t taken from fogen. I don’t care if it was SYG, self defense, murder or even an accident. You check to see if the shooter/driver, etc. has any drugs or alcohol in their system.

    Them letting him go without a tox screening, was a criminal act imo. That said loud and clear, we don’t care if you kill a black child. I will never understand how they appear to be getting away with that, never!

  80. Malisha says:

    Oh Poo Poo SPD having to worry NOW about how to prevent violence. They were told more than once that Fogen was running around the neighborhood brandishing his loaded gun and chasing down Black kids and they stuffed the warnings (from HOA people who were later kicked out of meetings and threatened) and allowed this situation to develop. THEY COULD HAVE prevented the violence that brought us here today. THEY COULD HAVE prevented Fogen’s violence. They had FAIR WARNING. They knew he was a bomb ready to explode in a village.

    SPD encouraged violence.
    May every one of them who had even the slightest bit to do with the cover-up reap his or her own evil 100X over in the decade to come. May every single one of them suffer as they have caused others to suffer; may they never have a safe or secure day as long as they live.

    • MichelleO says:

      fogen, the semi-white guy, was just their kind of dude. He talked the talk—and to impress them—he walked the walk. Killing that kid meant nothing to him. He’s been feted and high fived for over a year now. They never knew that racism could be so lucrative. Daddy and Mommy Z gave him a windfall afterall: he failed at everything else but the family value of racism. Hooray for America.

  81. jodiwankanobi says:

    something about omara’s closing and the concrete as a weapon…..why wouldn’t trayvon use the full heavy can as a weapon if he was the attacker and wanted to hurt gz? He didn’t need the concrete.

  82. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    I am smiling at Mr. Guy’s excellent rebuttal… Love this guy!! First class and passionate.. Evil in his heart – I’ll never forget that statement…

  83. Prayers for the right verdict

  84. gwynne says:
    Prepare to be nauseated. Quote from a breaking news CNN article:
    Here is what mom thinks about waiting for the jury to return a verdict. Direct quote from article:

    “I can’t eat, I can’t work, I just have to wait, it is the worst thing,” he said. “It’s sort of like waiting for a child to be born or something. … I don’t think there’s anything else you can do.”

    My thoughts-has he really not figured out someone’s child was murdered? Who in their right mind would say waiting for the jury in the zimmerman murder case is like waiting for a child to be born?????

    • MichelleO says:

      He’s thinking about his career and his reputation. Either way, the money is going to be flowing into his coffers. This is America in 2013. So sad. Always thought it would be better by now.

  85. Malamiyya says:

    My questions are, why did the state not point out the blood flowing up from the back of GZ’s head? Why did they not offer gun recoil as a plausible alternative to a punch in the nose? Why did they not demonstrate the misalignment of bullet holes between Trayvon’s clothing and his chest. And why didn’t point out the difference between the scream on the 911 call and GZ’s feeble cry for help during the police re-enactment? For that matter, they didn’t ask which was a more likely thing for Trayvon to have asked at the outset of the confrontation: “What’s your fucking problem, homie?” or “Why are you following me for?” All of these could have been raised, all of them were telling, but none of them came into the closing. Bernie did flash the photo of GZ with the wrong-way blood flow and said it was significant and he would get back to it, but then he never did.

  86. jodiwankanobi says:

    its now 4.30 in the morning here….i slept for a few hours during MOM’s dribble. I’m soooooo tired but too scared to go to sleep in case i miss the verdict. When this trial is over i think i might sleep for a week!!!!!

  87. fauxmccoy says:

    anyone have any clues as to how to keep up with jury deliberations and verdict without having the damn TV on? i will if necessary, but would love to find a text messaging service or something similar.

  88. Mountainpat, I thought I approved your comment but I can’t find it. I hope it’s you.

  89. Nef05 says:

    His last two statements were diametric opposed. He’s lying. The only part he’s telling the truth about is “We don’t see…”. Rest assured that is intentional. That area is too close to Rosewood, and a part of the violent assimilatiion of two towns.

    This is about “let’s keep our nigras in their place” while sipping on their mint juleps on the verandah , who do they think they’re fooling?

    I find that the relative value of a riot is directly related to the value of a black male and their allegedly “equal” access to justice system.

  90. diary73 says:

    So, has court been recessed for the day?

  91. chi1224 says:

    How do you post pics here?

  92. colin black says:

    catch you all laterz

  93. MichelleO says:


    Place for


  94. colin black says:

    S P C

    Sanford PASTORS connecting

    don’t riot


    S P C

    Sandfoed Police Control.

  95. disappointed says:

    Working better to be a better community, blue ribbon discussion group. So much stuff TO LATE!

  96. THE Shadow says:

    “you won’t get the gun. Until you get off.”
    Simple, yet brilliant in the way it forces you to visualize the image of Martin pulling away.

  97. jodiwankanobi says:

    i haven’t seen any threat of violence or even a murmur. Of course i could be wrong, but isn’t this just putting the thought in peoples heads….its only those in the nuthouse that have said there will be riots but i’ve never seen those that the nuthouse presume will riot even mention it.

    • MichelleO says:

      American racial politics at its finest.

    • deetruth says:

      It’s all part of the big fear tactic – “Be Afraid, Be very Afraid of the Scary Black People”.

    • Nef05 says:

      You’ll find it it other communities, Jodiwan. I find that the relative value of a riot is directly related to the value of a black male and their allegedly “equal” access to justice system.

      What do you do, and where do you turn when a huge part of your population is codified as valueless and open season is declared, by a legal precedent? Who’s left as a recourse? Are you simply supposed to accept that it’s open season on your kids (and soon, your men, too)

      What’s the difference between a “riot” about “Taxation without representation” – in which people also died and a riot about the message such a concept of valuelessness of HUMAN LIVES gives? Which one would you think is more important? I know which one BDLR,Corey, Mantei and Guy thought was more important. Their sincerity was palpable. The other group was called the teaparty, but since they’re white – what they did isn’t called a riot, even though that’s exactly what it was.

      Want to know whose has all the riots in the last two decades? White kids and townies, on campusus and cities that won championships. But, of course, those are white kids – so those rocks at police, broken windows, turned and burned cars, businesses, etc. Well, you know – that’s just overexuberance. Kids will be kids, (wink, wink)

      • jodiwankanobi says:

        yes none of it is fair……trayvon has brought all colors together however, and exposed the bigots for what they are

      • MedicineBear says:

        The original Boston Tea Party was a riot of white men DRESSED LIKE NATIVE AMERICANS. Yes, as always, the colorless white rioters blame it on colored people.

        Oh, and today’s “Tea Party” (named after those who opposed taxation without representation) are, ironically, trying to deny representation (right to vote) to the colorful majority.

  98. colin black says:

    only in Aerica chief lee a Black guy announces a Whitewash?

    w t f???

  99. anita says:

    msnbc press conf. Sanford mayor & sheriff

  100. MichelleO says:

    People Get Ready……

  101. colin black says:

    Chief of S P D about to speak some dude saying don’t riot if he is let to walk

  102. Dee says:

    What do they say.. ”revenge is better served cold.” Because it doesn’t matter how long it takes it coming.

  103. HeresLookingatYou says:

    If credibility matters to these 6 women..
    the killer is done.
    I hope these women do as Ms Maya Angelou says.

  104. Dee says:

    I hope Zimmerman is nice to the people in prison, because they don’t go for child killers. And now they know that he was also a rapist that raped his cousin for years. That will not sit too good for the prisoners. And he is fat too, really can’t run now, but I bet you will find that he learned more MMA then they told us about.

  105. willisnewton says:

    What place wold serve him? How about a place that serves CROW?

  106. chi1224 says:


    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      A big hug to you, Chi!

    • Rachael says:


    • Dee says:

      We are all together holding hand in hand with Trayvon as he led these juror’s 5 mother and one which will soon be. We will stand God on behalf of Trayvon in ”peace” not ”war.”

      Trayvon died to open up our eyes to this law, that we have to get rid of, before it our children laying in the grass face down from returning from the store or maybe just school.
      However, we have to remember that Trayvon is now in heaven with Christ and there is no pain, no prejudices. He said I go to prepare a place for you, for where I am you will be also.

      Trayvon is happy, and he wouldn’t want anyone to fight or hurt anyone on his behalf. Trayvon is happy and has never felt the love as he is feeling right now in the presence of Christ, even though his parents may miss his flesh body here on earth. He will always be with them in spirit, and this is what they have to hold on too, until they see him again. However, now we have to pray for all the other black on black crime that is happy today, how this world has caused our people to turn on ourselves, in hatred and murder.

      Every race has their problem the whites like to kill in numbers such as shooting up schools and buildings. So known of us are without fault. We all have to live on this earth. Nevertheless, we are in the last days, and we have been worn us that these things will begin to happen. And is happening before our eyes. He said that we would grow colder toward one another. Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

      Now these talk shows on HLN have to do their part as well, in not angering people by allowing these Zimmerman camp people to get on TV and bash Trayvon’s name because he is dead. They continue to allow Frank Taafee to use their platform to spit out racist remarks and hatred speeches toward black people. Saying things such as I am going to buy pizza for the crew to celebrate Zimmerman release. Who does this, there is a kid that is dead and his Frank so called friend Zimmerman killed him.

      If they continue this foolishness Jane, Nancy, Dr. Drew and all the others that are allowing Frank Taafee a stage to portray his hate over the air ways. This has gone on way too long. And they still are giving him this platform to use for racism. Allowing this for rating is totally ridiculas and not called for at all. And if something happens, I think that they would be a big part of it as well.

    • MedicineBear says:

      Bear hugs all around!

  107. breelee says:

    I’ve never served on a jury, was taking care of my dying mom when called. Do they take a vote 1st thing? If they all agree, do they just return or still go through all the evidence? These jurors will work on the weekend, right? tia

    • Unabogie says:

      They are free to handle it any way they want. They can start with a vote, and if they all agree, walk right out and announce the verdict. Or they can choose to debate for the next year (well, within reason, I bet). But it’s up to them.

  108. Dee says:

    It’s amazing how in the Zimmerman camp HLN is in. I don’t want to even watch them now. They sound like Fox TV. They get all the defense experts up. Never talk about Trayvon it if Zimmerman going to get off. They say that when something close to you happen then you will see their true colors, and HLN really showed me theirs.

    • MichelleO says:

      UNFORTUNATELY, for many this case was a real-time immersion in American skin game politics. As black and brown people have been saying for a very, very, very, long time: The American media supports the denigration of a very specific group of people.

    • deetruth says:

      Worst yet, Jane V Mitchell, Nancy Grace and Dr. Drew have had Frank Taffee on everyday as a regular commentator. He is having so much fun spreading his ignorance, rudeness and racism, and I assume getting paid. I am so done with HLN and CNN.

      • Malisha says:

        I’m wondering, if I ever had a choice for either (a) going on TV to pontificate 100 X because I knew somebody who killed an innocent kid or (b) having my two sons live long lives, and not die young,

        Which would I pick? Let’s see, let’s see … Oh now I figured it out. Good. I don’t envy Frank Taaffe at ALL.

      • truthseeker66 says:

        FT will forever b grateful to fogen for bringing him a windfall. I mean the guy house was in foreclosure and now he has regular gigs on cable…only in U.S. of A.

  109. MichelleO says:

    I’ll think of you every step of the way……..

  110. colin black says:

    Its comeing tick tock.

  111. elle says:

    I just saw an article on Yahoo about the best ice cream shops in America. Should we send a link to Ice Cream Man?

  112. willisnewton says:

    Two million people signed petitions for this day to come. Thousands in many cities rallies PEACEFULLY for this day to come. The Martin family advocated peacefully and strongly with great grace and conviction for this day to come. I’d say a portion of the thanks goes to them, who did their DUTY while the state “merely” did it’s JOB.

  113. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    God have mercy on the dead.. we pray that your healing hands touch the Martins as they go through this final phase for justice. We thank the prosecution team for allowing Mr. Guy to complete the argument and show everyone that Trayvon was a human being trying to get home… Love and Peace.. RIP Trayvon – Amen…

  114. breelee says:

    Talking heads griping that JN read the instructions way too fast. That they’d never seen that before. Also said jurors were extremely focused, so that’s good.

  115. FactsFirst says:

    is having a panic attack and in tears… Lord have mercy..

  116. colin black says:


    foggagge wants to speak at last lunges toward the MIKE

    Your Hounour Mis Mam your royal Judge Judyness

    Em can I have a ltter like those two Jurours you just dismissed .

    Can I have proof for my next employers I came in on time every day an stood everyy time I could cause my backs in great shape after the slight scrape .

    An could you please add that Ive a;son attended ever day dillegntly

    That’s It mam that all Ive got to say.

    Is there a plaw room me an shellie can go play .

  117. Stormwatch says:

    If that ere my son I have to say..
    I mighta killed his ass the very next day.

  118. Now it is in God’s hands and the six juror’s. God be with them in bringing justice for our beloved Trayvon.

  119. Unabogie says:

    Oh, my god, I just saw the cardboard cutout of Trayvon. It’s like 8″ taller than the one of Zimmerman. Does that speak to a strong case? Ridiculous!

    • willisnewton says:

      Did you hear John Guy say that no matter what the defense might claim, Trayvon Martin was no piece of cardboard.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      oh yeah — and then there is the added bulk of clothing because it sure was not muscle mass. completely misleading, but we expected no less, did we? it’s all they’ve got — ‘it was the big black guy’s fault, he killed himself via zimmerman’s gun!’

    • Puck says:

      And notice they left them up on the wall during the jury instructions whereas the prosecution had cleared their stuff out.

    • abbyj says:

      Unabogie, The cut-outs? What an embarrassment for the defense. I’ve seen more professional and well-made grade-school projects from 2nd and 3rd graders. The only thing the cut-outs lacked was the glued-on macaroni.

    • MedicineBear says:

      Speaks to a strong case of racism.

  120. Stormwatch says:

    Soulcatcher.. that was beautiful!

    • Soulcatcher says:


      and acemayo,

      Want to know what this white woman thinks, read the poem above……If that had been my son, Don’t know where I’d be today, but i can tell you where fogen would be, a place that has a space reserved especially for him. Hell

  121. Sabrina B. says:

    Here we go. Good thoughts being put out.

  122. YQ says:

    Good job by the State!!! Fogen looks worried bc he is a peice of shit. Didn’t have to kill the young tart and should have stayed in the car.

  123. colin black says:

    acemayo says:

    July 12, 2013 at 1:24 pm

    Many cities even where I live are going on high alert
    because they know how black people think


    colin black says:

    July 12, 2013 at 1:28 pm




    Q How do Black People think?

    Are there syanapsex of there brains wired difffernt from other humans?

    • acemayo says:

      Most of the media even said that black are going to riot
      What people fail to see thier had been many black male
      shot and kill becasuse someone think all black males are alike
      and the people he was moving his had into the
      wraist area and start shooting

  124. can i ask, how did Omara go? Did he have any good points? I started watching but got so bored i went to sleep…did it get any better or was it like pulling teeth the whole time? Mr. Guy was brilliant, they were really fighting for trayvon.

    • Beverly says:

      It did not get better; he seemed tired and listless, just short of confused. Definitely not very effective, esp when compared with Guy.

      • jodiwankanobi says:

        thanks Beverly

      • Ann says:

        he made a good effort but it was the same lame and unbelievable nonsense.

        And hopefully the jurors noticed that on one hand he kept telling them not to use common sense, not to use their own imagination or speculation.

        Then he goes on, encouraging them to imagine it happened exactly as George sez it did.. bit of a double standard. Maybe a triple.

  125. Woow! says:

    To the person who responded to my post yesterday regarding CAC partents:

    I disagree with you that CAC parents acted like any other parent of a child accused of committing a crime. I disagree with you because other parents would not have interjected racism, wrote books accusing people of the ethnicity of the victim as being racist, the POTUS, etc. etc. etc.

    I really feel sorry for George. He is a product of his environment. His parent reared him to be a racist. George has mental issues and instead of getting him help the entire family threw him away then squirmed their way back when the money train rolled in to town. Don’t get me wrong they would have supported him regardless of the money, but the money played a big part.

  126. TashaTexas77048 says:

    Praying the jury comes back in 30 minutes and ad libs instead of reading their prepared script, “We, the jury, find the Defendant guilty of being a lying ass coward and demand that the baliffs send his rotund bitchass to jail at once. To the Martin family, we sympathize with you and we know we cannot bring your son back but we can openly say right now, “HOODIES UP! JUSTICE FROM TRAYVON BENJAMIN MARTIN!”

    A girl can dream can’t she?

    • ks says:

      LOL! I know I’ve been one of your harshest critics here but, I’d like to say your heart is in the right place and apologies for any excesses on my part.

      • TashaTexas77048 says:

        No hard feelings KS, of course my heart is in the right place or I wouldn’t spend so much time here with people who support the same cause I support.

        • cielo62 says:

          Trashy Tasha Troll~ You’ve been BANNED twice! So do you and Deniss discuss how to get a new IP address each time you get sent into Spam? You are despicable.

    • elle says:

      Stay the course, Tasha! I am really glad we are on the same side!

  127. Mary Davis says:

    I have always compared notes with fellow jurors in deliberations. First time I’ve heard that you can’t compare notes with fellow jurors.

    But then again, this is Florida.

  128. DruDo says:

    Shellie is a very unpleasant looking person. Kinda like a female fogen.

  129. HeresLookingatYou says:

    I think it was brilliant how,Mr. Guy took the race card out of the deliberations and solely let the jurors base this on wrong or right flipping the script in a way puts them in the place of the stalked one since none on the jury are under age…it could be one of them …now what…

  130. acemayo says:

    Many cities even where I live are going on high alert
    because they know how black people think

  131. colin black says:

    Hi s foggagge mother is glareing defiance an his father?sticcks nae juts his jaw in the air like a petulant 4 yr old.

  132. Woow! says:

    Robert Zimmerman face looks like the Grench. Just watch when the camera stay on him again.

  133. breelee says:

    Lmbo, papa falling asleep!

  134. colin black says:

    Oh he talked freely he told them as many times an as many vesions as they wanted

    They gorier an more ridiculass the better he got a pass.

    An early Christmas .

  135. breelee says:

    You know papa zit was got after for his facial expressions. He did much better today. How the parents of a murdered child showed total class, but the murderers family couldn’t even be respectful, blows my mind.

    I’m still upset that a huge picture or collage of loving pictures of Trayvon were not set out in the courtroom. I still feel they all made him a name, and not a person, a child who lived and breathed.

  136. I’m so tired of people using Tm’s hoodie as an excuse. I nearly threw something at the Tv, listening to Lisa Bloom.

    • acemayo says:

      in stores in the black area you cannot come in the store
      with an hoodie hood and have dark glasses on

      • abbyj says:

        Excuse me, acemayo. What kind of crap are you posting here? You are offending me very much.

      • Sabrina B. says:

        And in white areas you cannot loiter next to a schoolyard. So, what’s your point?

        • cielo62 says:

          There are some banks in my area that do not allow people of ANY color, size or persuasion from entering while wearing hats and/or dark sunglasses. That way, if something DOES happen, the cameras can get a nice photo of him/her.

  137. Soulcatcher says:

    brought over from prev thread

    was reading thru some poems this morning, and this is part of one that caught my eye. More or less, about Trayvon was doing nothing wrong, how George profiled him, and nothing was done.

    Who claims he shot in “self defense”

    A claim which defies common sense

    Since he was running like wild

    After the child

    Whose fear must have just been intense

    This dumb rent-a-cop loony toon

    Called this innocent kid “fucking coon”

    Wrestled him down

    On the cold and wet ground

    And just one got up – this buffoon

    This worth nothing bigoted hater

    This wannabe cop emulator

    Just took this child’s breath

    Consigned him to death

    On a whim – yet this foul perpetrator

    Were it my son I just might be bound

    To buy me a gun and some rounds

    Get a Florida Permit

    Hunt down this piece of shit

    Cap his head twice and claim “stand your ground”


  138. Susan Moore says:

    Professor Leatherman,

    I think the state did a very good job and the defense was amazingly lousy; I hope for the right verdict.

    But, I am very upset about one thing and fear he will be acquitted because of it. The state failed to point out that the injuries on GZ’s face match the effect of the gun’s recoil. To me, I see the prongs of the gun’s sights on the tip of his nose, and the shell casing injury on the bridge of the nose. So does the gun expert I am watching this trial with. The jury is left to believe that TM punched GZ in the manner that GZ said. It’s inexcusable to me.

    Would you comment on this? Thank you so much for your input and for this forum–it is wonderful.


    • Malisha says:

      I think the defense functioned beautifully in motions practice, getting many points for their guy that they should never have had. But they failed on their main case and on closing — not because they weren’t effective lawyers but because they had NO CASE. That was their client’s fault. Oh — with the exception of the Hannity interview. That was O’Mara’s fault.

      • Susan Moore says:

        I agree. Zimmerman is a nightmare of a client – talk, talk, talk to everyone (except the jury!). And O’Mara was crazy to let him get on Hannity and say such crazy things — smiling throughout no less. I loved it when Prof. L said he would moon America before he let his client attribute the murder to G-d’s plan.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      susan — while it may be possible or even likely that recoil contributed to the defendant’s injuries, there is no proof. if you were a prosecutor, would you bring that forward when there is other, more solid evidence – even if it is circumstantial? consider their burden of proof.

      • Susan Moore says:

        If the state can suggest it was caused by running into a tree, they can suggest recoil and shell casing too. They could have had an expert testify to it as a possibility. They could have had the measurements of the two pinpoint injuries on the nose compared to the measurements of the prongs of the sights. They could have had evidence of the known recoil and shell casing projection issues with the kel tec pf9. As I said, I am watching this trial with a gun expert…. He and I have no reasonable doubt of the cause of those injuries. Even without the expert testimony, on closing they could have asked the jury to really look at the gun sights on the gun in evidence and look at the photo of the tip of Zimmerman’s nose.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          as i said, i consider it highly likely and it is because i am a gun owner. i just don’t know that i would bring it in if i were prosecuting. although it looks likely on the photos we have seen, i find myself wondering if there is something we don’t know if the photo were precisely life sized of the defendant at that time (which might be tricky to reproduce). i am just guessing, but i suspect they considered and rejected it as a concept. we have to assume that they know much more about their case and what they can prove than we do.

          • Susan Moore says:

            I hope you are right. If they considered it, and rejected the idea, then I defer to their better informed judgment. My fear has been that they just missed it. I don’t like that they left the jury perhaps assuming that TM took the first punch.

            In any event, thanks for your considered response because I’ve really needed to “talk” about it.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            understood, susan. i think they covered all bases with repeating that no one will ever know what really happened out there. two were involved, one is dead, the other a liar.

    • mobjack says:

      I thought it was a stretch to suggests that the recoil caused the injuries. GZ is an able body man and probably fired the gun hundreds of times at the shooting range. Most witnesses saw there was a fight, so common sense says it was probably the result of that.

      The defense should keep it simple and stick to the evidence instead go off on wild speculation that could discredit themselves.

      GZ version of events hurt his credibility because the injuries indicated a couple punches at most and not having his head repeatedly slammed on concrete 20 times.

      • Susan Moore says:

        I agree the defense’s case stinks. But, I assure you, while at the shooting range, GZ took a well-prepared stance of his legs and feet, stretched both arms out and properly held the gun with two hands, wore glasses or goggles to protect against shell casing injury, and steadied himself to handle that nasty recoil. There was a point during the defense’s opening when West demonstrated GZ’s position in the shooting–hunched over that gun inches from his face, with nowhere else for the shell casing to go, with his arm bent close to him, and only one hand, no stance to steady himself. It was at that one moment, my gun expert exclaimed, “West just made a big mistake!” The shell casing can ONLY hit him in the face, and he’s gonna take recoil in the face.

        • MedicineBear says:

          That is a jury full of wise women, and maybe they will come up with this possibility themselves. I didn’t watch voir dire — did they ask jurors if they had knowledge of firearms? Anyhoo, they have evidence that his jacket was open (you and I know why), that he had a flashlight in his hand (that he didn’t use to defend himself), that he couldn’t get to his gun with a hip holster while on his back (so when did that gun get in his hands — when he moved his open jacket to “look in his right pocket for his phone”?), he didn’t use his arms/hands to defend himself (why — did he have the gun out and that was what the struggle was about?), etcetera. I think these wise women want to look carefully at the videos and testimony and figure out a lot of things that many of us figured out by considering raw evidence. Who knows, someone on the jury may figure out the recoil like you and I. I’m stewing about it too, but I’m trying to remember they are intelligent critical-thinking women that will be using their God given gifts of intuition and discernment. All we can do now is buck each other up and project as much faith as we can muster to this blessed jury. Hoodies up!

          • Susan Moore says:

            Thanks for your response. Hopefully, one juror will think of it and mention it. I would be satisfied with that. Indeed, it may be even more powerful if the jurors “discover” this themselves. I think 2 jurors have guns in their homes, one of which has an expired ccw license. Thanks for making me feel better about this.

            I think the prosecution did a very good job, and I was shocked how inartful O’Mara was today. Among other things, I thought he continuously insulted the jury with his constant “fear” they would not properly apply the law re reasonable doubt. If I were him, and felt that fear, I would have said it differently–I would have told the jury I have confidence in them to study and apply the judge’s instructions and that I am simply reminding them of this. (What juror wants to hear that their ability to handle this job only causes him fear? Thanks for your constant doubts about my abilities, pal!) Look how much confidence the state showed by simply saying/repeating, “You decide”. I think O’Mara is completely tone deaf.

            Thanks again.

    • The State did not miss much, if anything. Given their thoroughness, I thinks it’s likely they made a tactical decision to not present that argument because they feared they could not back it up, if challenged.

      They reached the same conclusion that we did; namely, that GZ was the aggressor attempting to prevent Trayvon from being yet another asshole who escaped out the back entrance before the police arrived. Trayvon had the right to use reasonable force to resist GZ’s use of force and, given GZ’s minor injuries, I think they decided that the best way to deal with them was to ask, “so what?”

      By dismissing them as insignificant, which they truly were, they placed the burden on the defense to prove that they were significant. I believe they realized that they would lose their tactical advantage in a debate with the defense regarding the significance of the defendant’s injuries, if they allowed the subject matter of the debate to change from the seriousness of any particular injury into a debate about what caused any particular injury.

      The State had no obligation to prove causation. The decision not to go there reflects a conservative approach with which I cannot disagree even though I believe as you do that the injury to his face was caused by the kick from the gun.

      • Susan Moore says:

        Thank you, Professor. I feel much better thinking of it as a tactical decision, rather than an oversight. Given your experience, I am also glad to see you “cannot disagree” with that decision. All and all, I think the state did a great job. As for the defense, I think they had a lousy case with a client who talked way too much, but I am still amazed at just how inartful defense counsel was during opening/closing (lousy case or not). Inter alia, I think O’Mara’s repetitive expression of “fear” of the jury was absolutely tone deaf–he was downright insulting their intelligence, IMO. Thanks again.

  139. anita says:

    I wish a group from this blog was on the jury. World record breaker. Verdict of GUILTY delivered in 5 min. Maybe less!!!

  140. colin black says:

    Theres no reasonable doubt only unreanable clout that lout used on TRAYVON he be gone.

  141. colin black says:

    I hope DD isthere at sentence an gives a victim impact crakers an all.

    foggagge thought bubble

    I had a ccw permit an I told em hey my gun is right there I only shot him one time shrug

    Shit happens Sods Law.

    Why not he tried to fuck justice up the arse.!
    soddomony as well

  142. The gun recoil hitting GZ in the face, Kel tec pf 9mm are notorious for a strong recoil.

    The bullet hole behind the button could only happen if the hoodie was pulled down

    The audio of GZ’s racking his weapon and bullet stuck on feed ramp hence the tapping after the cocking. With no other sound that can reproduce it but another gun.

    I would’ve used the concrete block demonstration to show that if your head hits it hard enough to break skin without any chance of recoil, you would be dead after 1 time. Even if not, your brain would swell up and if you don’t go to the hospital immediately, you will die right after your headache starts.

    These are just some of the points that were missed in GZ’s prosecution which I find convincing.

  143. breelee says:

    I forgot the author here who said this, but I really wish Guy had said:”Zimmerman murdered his neighbors guest”. That would have turned those who feel fogen was a protector of the hood.

  144. disappointed says:

    We know Trayvon died. We know he died at the hands of George. IMO either charge works BECAUSE he fired a gun in between rows of homes, he could have killed someone in their home firing a gun like that. JMO but it was dangerous from the time he exited his vehicle with a gun. He murdered Trayvon, but he could have killed anyone of those people inside their home.

  145. breelee says:

    Any guesses on how long the jury will be out? I’ll say tomorrow at 3:00pm

  146. gwynne says:

    And she’ll gets the whole bathroom to herself! Score!

  147. Dee says:

    Shelly is thinking well I sure hope he gave me the combination to the safe deposit box. Because it looks like Georgee is going away for 25-30 Shelly in her mind said oh no he didn’t he gave that to his sister and brothers, dam!

  148. deetruth says:

    John Guy’s “Race” test scenario /question was spot on.

  149. Back in session at 2 pm EDT.

    Judge Nelson reads the instructions.

  150. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    I only got to see boys and pieces of today’s closings. Wtf did MOM think he was going to fool those Jurors into believing that those stupid cardboard cut out were actual sizes?? Look how big they made Trayvon. Ridiculous! Can’t wait to watch, sounds like my man did wonderful today. I knew he would.

  151. Stormwatch says:

    I was very surprised and disappointed that the state did not bring up the gun recoil thing. West addressed it in his opening and I thought the state would pounce on it. I hoped Guy would spring it on them in closing. It’s so blatantly obvious where the facial injuries came from. That’s why no major blood on TM. Idiot did not start bleeding from the face until he fired the gun and that’s when the altercation ended. Aside from that, I am very impressed with the state prosecutors and find the defense team to be a joke. Prayers said and fingers crossed for justice for a young man 21 days into his 17th year and his family and supporters. Peace & Hugs.

    • MedicineBear says:

      I agree with your entire post. I too was disappointed they didn’t bring the recoil in, didn’t mention the blood pathway again, didn’t again bring up the fogen cut between buildings theory, and that fogen’s jacket was open for a reason. I also was hoping there would be some explanation about the difference between reasonable doubt and ANY possible doubt (including the explanation that it’s not exculpatory doubt just because they don’t know exactly what happened during gaps where there were no witnesses). I don’t even know if the Pros could discuss this — it seems like that was objected to? There were a couple powerful points that they DID make that I hadn’t considered before — the grass on toes circled (BDLR) and John Guy saying fogen could have driven to the back gate and waited for police. BAM! another point that shows him out aggressively, actively hunting for trouble. I think the Prosecution did an outstanding job overall — especially considering they were walking a tightrope using SPD without exposing their corruption. Anyway, an excellent job. I pray the jurors are going to stand firm with what the evidence proves to their mind, their gut, and their heart.

      • MEJ7 says:

        Good said he saw the man with the red jacket and white shirt. If it was raining, why isn’t Zimmerman’s jacket zipped up like it is in the police pictures. How could he possibly see a white t-shirt? Unless the jacket was open. And why wasn’t there any blood on it? Unless his “injuries” came after he accosted Trayvon. It’s all stinky in Sanford…were the witnesses tampered with by Zimmerman and his wife and “scared” they’d end up like Trayvon? Crazy…Also interesting Dilligard said she recognized Trayvon from the neighborhood when she was shown a picture of him after the shooting. If she recognized him, I’m sure Zimmerman did too. She also mentioned the position of his truck which was not where he claimed it to be.

        And the MMA gym owner lied on the stand saying he absolutely wasn’t marketing a Zimmerman training program – which was on his website. Is that not perjury?

        Singleton looked like a silly school girl in the interrogation room. An embarassment to women in law enforcement. The female detectives on The First 48 make her look like a juvenile. No wonder they have problems in their force.

  152. My Forehead Tho says:

    LOL John Guy’s rebuttal is trending worldwide on twitter. He really did an amazing job

  153. fauxmccoy says:

    lots of respect for judge nelson. putting up with this defense team has been a nightmare, but i think she has prevailed. i am sure the defense will file appeals, less sure that any will be considered.

    • Dee says:

      Don’t worry she will handling that when she slaps the prison time on them, she’s known for that. She watches body language ask the black guy that went in front of her on a SYG case. He told Zimmerman good luck with her.

    • abbyj says:

      Faux and Dee, Props to Nelson for keeping her cool when she was sooo disrespected by the defense. I’ll bet the farm that they pay BIG for trashing her so visibly, with such contempt. Both MOM and West had veritable temper tantrums before her. She won’t forget it. She’s good at holding her feelings in place, but you could feel the chill.

  154. Sabrina B. says:


  155. Soulcatcher says:

    What a joke. They pushed that card as far as it could go. Where did that picture of their so called roots come ftom. Didn’t papa z just write a book and made race a point that AA’s are racist. Didn’t one of them make a point that fogen married outside his race, white. Is there anyone in the Z family that does not lie.

  156. My Forehead Tho says:

    Will the jurors be allowed to deliberate over the weekend, or will they still be restricted from talking about this case amongst themselves and others when they leave the courtroom?

    • whonoze says:

      They will enter deliberation as soon as JN finishes reading the instructions. I guess they will take as long as they need, without breaks except to sleep. GZ has to wait at the courthouse until a verdict comes back. It’s possible they could come back this afternoon.

  157. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    This song is for Travyvon, “A Child Trying To Get Home.” but couldn’t do to GZ..

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Beautiful……so moving…..I am shivering as it touches my heart.

      Thanks for posting this, Everyone!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Trayvon so wanted to get home.

        *tears* 😥

      • Christopher Charles says:

        Every day, I, too, am climbing higher mountains trying my very best to get home. Trayvon climbed his mountain and he now rests with God.

        TY for the post. It brought tears to my eyes. God Bless you

  158. willisnewton says:

    Guy did great but the State MISSED a major, major argument that could have sealed a M2 conviction IMO by not applying common sense and deductive reasoning, and LISTENING closely to Rachael Jantel’s story, which is accurate to the second regarding Trayvon being chased by a moving car.

    When he FINALLY pointed out the specific “circling the car” lie that cannot be made to align with the NEN call recording he had it ALL within his grasp. A few more sentences IMO would have cinched the noose around GZ’s neck, IMO.

    I deeply wish he’d gone further and explained the WHY GZ told that lie about circling the car. It was to omit the fact that the teen ran off the roadway from him moving car, and to substitute his own “doubling back” action for that of the kid. He must have hoped the times would even out. But they don’t because GZ was in a car and the teen was on foot.

    This action could have been charged or at least portrayed as criminal stalking as a separate crime and proven ill will and aggressor status, etc. IMO

    He did everything but that, and probably enough but as an interested party I feel like investigators should have put it together, and connected the dots as well BEFORE arguing the case and then it would have been their decision to include that aspect or not.

    Instead it was DON WEST who spoke to the car-to-pedestrian chase FIRST in open court, and “that’s retarded.” Racheal J spoke the TRUTH. The state should have had her back.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Good post and I agree. The state missed some opportunities. Perhaps if all the players were only working this one case as we have . . .!

  159. deetruth says:

    I can finally get my life back and stop being glued to the tv or computer.

  160. KittySP says:

    Sonny Hostin on CNN commented that reasonable doubt works best for cases of “whodunit”…because that isn’t the case here…it’s not likely to be effective when considering did he “have to do it”

  161. ZCBest says:

    I feel really good about this ya’ll. He will be convicted. But I will miss chatting with you all after all of this is said and done.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      you don’t have to skedaddle when this has concluded ZCB — a lot of us will be right here still. this is a legal blog and although this case has been front and center as of late, there are plenty others deserving attention. i’d like to invite you to stick around.

      • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

        We will find another case to worry about….

      • ZCBest says:

        Very true. Thanks for the reminder and invite. I will stay nearby.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          good to hear, zcb.

          • Deborah Moore says:

            I’ve enjoyed most of the time I’ve spent at this blog. Only 5 weeks, but there are some folks here who are clearly disengenuious, ill informed, bigoted and derisive.
            I really want to continue with the intelligent and thoughtful dialogue here, but I don’t want to deal with bigots.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            i would encourage you to stick around, deborah. what you have seen in the last 5 weeks is not representative of our usual activities. it has been distressing for me as well. i cam here to get away from the things you have mentioned and hope that we will return to ‘normal’ as a group in short time.

            we always engaged in healthy debate here, it was our purpose. we did, however, exercise caution and reason in working things out and reaching consensus.

            the last five weeks brought in a lot of new people, you are one. i have appreciated your contributions and welcome you to stick around as the stress of this situation subsides on this blog and individuals who contribute. my hope is that we return to our relative norm soon for just the reasons you mentioned or i have little incentive to stick around.

          • SoulSistaWoo says:

            Bigots… Here?

            This blog has been a wonderful experience for me, maybe I am a bigot and can’t see them because I am one or maybe I am just dense.

            Either way I have been mentally shielded from the ignorance and found this to be a great and intelligent exchange, but most often it was a learning experience for me.

            I hate to even think of what I experienced before someone on Youtube told me I should come here.

            Thank you to whomever that individual was; you saved my sanity.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            i am really glad you are hear and appreciate your input. i think it’s fair to say though that we have had a boom in posters and that there were some tense times. i’m glad you are here and hope you stick around.

    • elle says:

      Crane has excellent articles also, ZC. I will check for her articles everyday. The Professor and Crane are diverse and eloquent. There will be a lot of articles to discuss.

    • cielo62 says:

      ZCBest~ Nice new avatar. Much better than your last one.

  162. Jasmine says:

    I don’t know if you heard what Geraldo said but he just disgusts me. He said that those women of the jury would have killed Trayvon too. Of course he gave the wrong height!!! It is like he is saying ‘see young black male….oh he is dangerous….I fear them….so shoot them.’ Isn’t that just the most scary thing in the world? Killed for who you are. It isn’t even something you can hide or change. Young. Black. Male.

    • BB says:

      He assumes they seated a jury of malignant racists? The defense hoped to, but I don;t think they did.

    • My Forehead Tho says:

      Geraldo is disgusting period. This is the same man who said Trayvon’s hoodie was thug attire and Fogen was justified in profiling him. His opinion about this case means nothing.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      he was a promising young reporter, a life time ago. he lost any credibility long ago and is not worthy of consideration.

    • Malisha says:

      Geraldo has just gone off the wall with his sensational craziness. He was once a journalist. It’s a shame what he has turned into. Ptew Ptew Ptew!

      • anita says:

        Geraldo has & always be a moron. I remember when he 1st. came on t.v. I was a teenager. My mom & I couldn’t stand him from the very start.

    • Susan Moore says:

      Without going into my opinion of Geraldo and his hoodie phobia, he sure doesn’t understand women. What we fear is a man who is following us in the dark, or who is following our children….

    • Jasmine says:

      I hate that stereotype. Anyone can hurt you and they gloss over that fact. It makes me so angry and as a female I know I should be afraid of any and everyone. It is just a fact of life. Even family cannot always be trusted. Parents abuse their own children everyday so I do not like to be told to only fear people who look and dress like this or that. Please! That just insults my intelligence.

  163. Omara bored me to sleep but i am happy that i woke in time to watch Guy’s closing argument. Well done to the state. Lets hope common sence indeed prevails. Hoodies up. It’s nearly over.`

  164. Unabogie says:

    So, we’ll never know about Zimmerman’s phone call after the murder. Was that mentioned today?

    • Jasmine says:

      I wonder that too. They were all over Trayvon’s phone but Fogen’s was off limits. I hope we get to see those someday. They were deemed too prejudicial or something like that so they were sealed. Unfair!

      • gwynne says:

        Ok, this is just a guess. But, we know he was quite happy to use really foul language while on the phone with NEN. I’m thinking he is habitually “colorful” when he texts. He is statements, language was probably so vile and nasty they were excluded.

      • roderick2012 says:

        “They were deemed too prejudicial or something like that so they were sealed. Unfair!”

        I was disappointed that those texts and George’s journal weren’t presented as evidence during the trial and that is just one of many reasons that I thought that the State was throwing this trial and allowing the DOJ to step in and file hate crime charges against Fattie because I believe those documents include racist language.

        I can’t imagine the agony that Tracy must feel having to keep those messages a secret while having to breath the same air as Fattie.

    • whonoze says:

      Put that in the bin with a couple hundred other things we will never know about this case.

  165. If there’s a win here, this is only step one. The wrongful death and the investigation of the SPD and civil rights violations need to be included.

  166. I wonder if Frank Taffe is afraid GZ will tell the whole story in a book called “I did it but here’s what really happened” should he be convicted.

  167. Sophia33 says:

    Is there any wonder that Fogen turned out the way he did? Look at his family! The look at the friends he has chosen to have in his life.

    Juniors tweets, Fogen Mama’s letters, Fogen Daddy’s interviews and book.

    Then the best “friends” – Osterman and Taaffe. What do you expect?

    I have never despised the family and friends of a defendant in a high profile case as I have this one.

    I think for me has to do with the lack of compassion, vitriol, hatred, self-hatred, they have spewed. It is one thing to support your family member or friend. It is another thing to attack the victim of their crimes and the community from which the victim comes.

    But I must say that I am not at all surprised that Fogen turned out the way he did.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      it is one thing to quietly support a family member accused of a crime; it is quite another to denigrate the victim. their actions are despicable.

    • Sabrina B. says:

      Not surprised in the least bit. That family is venom personified. The good thing is that now that they are exposed, anything that might befall them will be part of a news story. And we can watch as their karma comes back to knock them on their asses.

    • anita says:

      Perfectly said, Sophia. Those people are truly unbelievable.

  168. Judy75201 says:

    I was wrong about the “years old” thing. My apologies.

  169. breelee says:

    So many *tears* statements I still cant stop. Does anyone know who the man by Sybrina that got very teary was? He broke my heart.

    Best prosecution team ever!

  170. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    Hate in his heart! – Brilliant Guy.

  171. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    Did anyone see ZIMMERMANS father he also appeared horrified. Well Daddy Zimmerman your connections my not work this time… also all your law enforcement officer family members…

    Daddy Zim when you train your child to get away with everything eventually it will caught up to him… Spare the rod, spoil the child.

  172. elle says:

    A very wise person said here (was it Malisha?) that it was imperative that the Prosecution humanize Trayvon, that the jurors must feel his presence in the courtroom. She said that if the Prosecution could not or did not do that, the case was lost. Well, I think they succeeded in doing that in the end. And, whoever sad that (Malisha) is a GENIUS!

    • gwynne says:

      ITA. And that is exactly what Mr. Guy did, in the first 2 minutes.

      On the other hand, the goal of the defense was to attempt to make the victim irrelevant. It was all about how fogen, fogen, fogen.

      • elle says:

        I am going to glue a picture of fogen next to irrelevant in my dictionary. Wait, no I am not. After the jail doors slide shut, I never want to that lying POS again.

    • BB says:

      Conversely- the defense tried to joke from moment one- to lessen the importance of this case, this murder, this young life that was lost. I think they really hoped there were a few callous racist jerks on the jury who were capable of devaluing Trayvon’s life.

    • Sophia33 says:

      I said that. It was one of my early posts when I came here.

      And yes, Guy just did that.

      Now it is in the jury’s and God’s hands.

      • elle says:

        Sophia, BRAVO! I am sorry I got the wrong person. You could not have been more perceptive! I am very impressed. Thank you.

        • Sophia33 says:

          Thank you!

          I fretted at the beginning, but Guy just brought it home at the end. In fact, I believe that was the post where I spoke about the “Time to Kill” Clip

      • gwynne says:

        Elle put it well, Very perceptive indeed!!

    • fauxmccoy says:

      guy did not just humanize trayvon but in a very subtle way, he personalized this for the jury. any one of those jurors will now be able to imagine that is their child, grandchild, or them — just trying to walk home from the store and being chased by a stranger.

      that, after all, is why juries are entrusted to be the gate keepers of their communities. juries get to decide what will and will not be tolerated in their communities and who will lose their freedom for not acting in a reasonable manner and killing for not need, but desire. if a prosecutor can humanize the victim and personalize the crime — then they have come a long way to accomplishing their job.

  173. My Forehead Tho says:

    It takes common sense to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Fogen’s self defense story was BS. I hope the jurors listened to BDLR when he said, “Use your God given common sense”

    Using common sense, they will conclude that a grown man who followed a teenager, first by car then by foot, most likely searched for, confronted, and attempted to grab the teenager. Using common sense, they will conclude that Fogen’s injuries, among other things, are inconsistent with his story(s). Common sense should have these jurors conclude that it was almost impossible for Fogen to grab his weapon with Trayvon mounting him. Lastly, common sense should cause these jurors to conclude that if Fogen murdered Trayvon, he had was knowledgeable in how to get away with it.

  174. disappointed says:

    If the jury finds him guilty will he be taken into custody until sentencing?

  175. willisnewton says:

    Bernie ought to give his pending “outstanding lawyer” award to Guy next week. Out of respect.

    • whonoze says:

      Guy hasn’t gotten enough criminal defendants executed yet.

      • willisnewton says:

        Good point. Maybe it wasn’t god’s plan. It creeps me out that Corey is such a jeesus freak. That has no place in a courthouse,. She prosecuted many children as adults, some not even teens yet i think. That doesn’t seem very christian to me.

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:


    • It was a team game. It was deliberate that prosecution give the real punch at rebuttal.
      BLDR had to present facts yesterday without revealing what their real argument is.
      Guy had to score the goal with no possible response given to defense.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        Yep. Bernie took on the task to present as many of GZ’s lies and inconsistencies as possible.
        I don’t think O’Mara helped his client by trying to infantalize GZ and make Trayvon into some kind of hulk like thug.
        The tweets about the jurors demeanor, began to change when O’Mara was still giving his closing.
        Guy’s personal closing, brought Trayvon into that court room. I hope the jury felt like I did, that Guy restored the proper order by stating that Trayvonwill never be a cardboard cut out.

  176. MrSykes says:

    Zimmerman’s own kin even looked deflated and in awe of Guy’s power, especially She-Lie.

    • Eric says:

      Not Shellie, she looked inflated. Dangerously so.

    • vickie s. votaw says:

      I saw mamaz nodding her head yesterday when Bernie was talking yesterday at one time

    • anita says:

      She looked so bad, just really odd & a strange sort of look. I almost, barely almost, felt sorry for her. Only for a second.

      • MrSykes says:

        The look of guilt I’d imagine.

      • She needs to think about what she’s gonna do with her own life after Fogen’s in the slammer.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I think you should never feel guilty of feeling some kind of empathy for another person. If you give up that abillity, you become like the people at the outhouse.

        • abbyj says:

          amsterdam, if you do that, keep empathy alive in you, you do it for yourself, to maintain your own humanity. The people in the outhouse have so little compassion and empathy for others, that it is truly wasted on them. They don’t understand empathy. They see it as weakness, and it fuels their hatred. I want to reserve empathy always, but only for those who have a heart.

          • amsterdam1234 says:

            I can feel empathy for another person’s pain even if their pain is not justified in my opinion. That doesn’t mean I would excuse them for having to accept the full consequences of their actions.
            I agree it is more about me than them.

  177. willisnewton says:

    someone on the last thread, lost over there with a few of us said, ”

    “Someone give Guy a mic to drop”

  178. disappointed says:

    Mr Guy called Fogen Mr Softy? lmao!

  179. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    Mr. Guy just nailed Zimmerman’s jail door!

  180. Dee says:

    Frank Taafee said that he was going to celebrate and buy pizza for the HLN staff after the not-guilty verdict comes in. Who says something like that when parents of a 17-year-old will never be able to celebrate with their child ever again. He is such a racist person that these talk shows are giving him a platform. How could Jane Mitchell, Nancy Grace, and all the HLN shows give this racist so much TV time when all he does it talk bad about blacks and this kid who Zimmerman killed. Unbelievable.

  181. SearchingMind says:


    Guy said and demonstrated it: “physical impossibility”. The core of GZ’s story of self-defense is a “physical impossibility”. The case for Murder2 has been very well made. Words are powerful. In the hands of a competent prosecutor they are instruments of death. Excellent job, John Guy.

  182. disappointed says:

    Oh and I love why Trayvon did not run home. Why did Fogen not give out his address? SAME DAMN REASON! Good for the goose but not the gander I suppose.

    • whonoze says:

      TM’s reason was better. GZ only suspected TM of being a burgler, TM thought GZ was a Creepy Azz Cracka, i.e. a sexual predator. GZ had only himself to protect. TM had to worry about Chad. He absolutely did the right thing not going home under the circumstances.

      • ada4750 says:

        OK. Then BDLR did not follow this line? Why he did not ask Rachel if she had an idea why?

        • Unabogie says:

          The fact is that Rachel wasn’t there, and had never been to the scene of the crime, so her understanding of locations is pure speculation and can only hurt their case. Much like when she said “right behind his daddy’s house”. Did she mean actually behind, or just behind the row houses like where Zimmerman committed the murder? We’ll never know since she can’t explain what she didn’t see.

          • ada4750 says:

            That’s right. But maybe Trayvon told her some additional indications. Yes, she said Trayvon was scared but nothing about his intentions. I am somewhat frustrated that those informations never came out.

          • amsterdam1234 says:

            If she didn’t have more information, she didn’t have more information. The fact is GZ put bullet in Trayvon’s heart. We will never know exactly what happened.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          asking jeantel about her thoughts would be calling for speculation and would be objected to. i have always considered that this was the reason. mr guy made it very clear and at a good time for the jury to hear. i am satisfied.

          • ada4750 says:

            Yes maybe it is the best outcome in the circumstances. Still, i would like to know. This is such a central part.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            ada, that is the maddening thing about this case — ALL of the things we will never know. it is also the most tragic. as the prosecution has been saying, only two people know — ‘one of them is dead, the other a liar.’

    • Unabogie says:

      I need to watch this, but that’s a point I’ve been making for a year. Everything they say about Zimmerman: he was in fear, he didn’t want to give out his address, shock makes you say things that you remember better later, etc. is thrown out the window when applied to Trayvon, his family, or any witness who saw something the Zimmerman team didn’t like. So on a dime, you can throw out everything they say. Surdyka was a liar, Bahadoor was a liar, Rachel was a liar. Only John Good can be trusted. Only Zimmerman can be trusted.

      Zimmerman had every right to follow, follow, and follow some more and then shoot and kill, not from actual injuries, but from fear alone. But Trayvon’s only rights were to run home or face his death. The idea that HE had legitimate fear, borne out in the FACT that Zimmerman killed him, doesn’t even entitle him to throw a single punch, while Zimmerman’s fear entitled him to kill with a gun.

      Do they not see this glaring double standard?

      • whonoze says:

        The Treeper’s don’t. Their hate and fear blind them. MOM probably does see the double standard and ws just doing his job. His closing seemed exhausted, like he was going through the motions, couldn’t really bring his A-game on behalf of a POS client he probably knows to be a POS.

      • My Forehead Tho says:

        Honestly, I don’t think they do, which is unfortunate.

      • gwynne says:

        No, they don’t see the double standard. Racism is blinding.

  183. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    There should be a law against media misleading the public. I think that should be the next cause to fight for because if they mislead the public it obstructs the public from making good sound decisions; it causes divisiveness within our society.

    HLN is focusing in on O’Mara’s closing and ignoring Guy’s closing. They’re trying to make it seem like O’Mara did an excellent job…NOT!

  184. Woow! says:

    The Martin/Fulton’s should have some recourse for defamation of character or libel/slander committed by conservative journalist who repeatedly reported stories they knew were false regarding the Martin/Fulton and their son.

    Journalist such as Stuz-man should not be able to hide behind the constitution or use their profession as an avenue to facilitate those who want to spread lies.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      i don’t think you can sue for libel, slander or defamation on behlf of the dead. there is a reason why conventional wisdom teaches us though to not speak ill of those who are not here to defend themselves. most reasonable people understand this and respect it, if not, it certainly speaks more to the character of the living.

      if anything was said or written about the living parents or other family members that was malicious and untrue, they may have a case.

    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      Exactly! That’s why I watched those who were cheerleading a child murderer. I plan to research other murder cases of children to see what their comments were for them

  185. breelee says:

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but did I hear MOM say ” broken nose or such”, as in it might not have been broken. Like we didn’t already know that.

    Props and high fives to our 3 angel men who have put on the good fight for Trayvon. I saw Bernie rubbing his head like he had a headache, so I touched my screen and sent him healing thoughts. I love these men, and know they couldn’t fight like they wanted, having to protect a dirty PO department.

    I’m feeling good except for the possibility of a dirty juror.

    • vickie s. votaw says:

      I think it is so cool how they have inspired so much admiration , I want to thank them, it’s such a good feeling

  186. esentrick says:

    John Guy’s closing argument was POWERFUL!!! ELOQUENT!! EMOTIONAL!!! TRUTHFUL!! JUSTICE 4 TRAYVON BENJAMIN MARTIN!!! thats all I can say.

  187. disappointed says:

    If this Jury finds him not guilty than they have NO heart. Trayvon died just trying to get home and when Fogen had the chance to look the jury in the eyes while MOM rested his arm on his shoulder he looked at the ground. As a Mother if you want to BE BELIEVED, LOOK ME IN MY EYES!

  188. HeresLookingatYou says:

    It only becomes complicated when you try

  189. ladystclaire says:

    Trayvon was sixteen years twenty one days and, he will be forever. this is so sad and, I’m sending up my prayers asking that, this defendant does not get away with this MURDER OF THIS CHILD.

  190. Unabogie says:

    Well I missed the whole session today. I look forward to seeing this on Youtube.

    • whonoze says:

      Make sure you have some Adderal on hand to get through MOM’s closing ‘argument.’

      • fauxmccoy says:

        i missed it and am unsure if i want to bother. i think i am better off for having done so. what say you?

        (by your comment, i am left to assume that o’mara’s statements were not elegant in a rhetorical sense.)

        • Unabogie says:

          Oh, there’s no way I’m watching O’Mara. He said nothing I couldn’t get from the Conservative Nuthouse, I’m sure.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            good thought! this is the first time i have missed a court date and slept until my normal california wake up time and i am at peace, finally.

        • bellesouth says:

          I had to turn the sound down and just watch.

        • MedicineBear says:

          Don’t bother. It was a warmed-over rehash of his same-ole-same-ole hot mess. You know how he drones on and on saying nothing. PapaZ couldn’t stop yawning. GZ was asking West if he could get his sentence reduced to a misdemeanor for having to sit through it. Don’t West (or O’Mara) your time.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            so apparently, the only thing that keeps papaZ engaged is hate? sick. i think i’ll pass, thanks for the heads up.

    • Sophia33 says:

      Skip MOM’s closing. Nothing to see there.

    • Beverly says:

      If you must, look for only a couple of minutes of Ommm. Very boring and ineffective, adds nothing to the truth/understanding of the case….He truly whines for 3 hours and drinks tubs of water. Do dignity that you may expect from a lawyer.

  191. HeresLookingatYou says:

    Said since the beginning this case is a simple one it o only becomes complicated when to try to fit the killers many many lies to it..
    Mr. Guy touched the soul

  192. Ty Flair says:

    I’m speachless I do have a smile on my face though. Thank you Guy!

  193. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    HLN still trying to pump up O’Mara’s closing as great. These people are something else. Smh!

  194. Stormwatch says:

    The next time I hear one of those cable “legal analyst” talk about what a great lawyer Don West is I’m going to get sick. Don West is a shitty lawyer. John Guy is a superb lawyer.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      i am willing to assume that maybe 20-30 years ago west was on the top of his game, he is certainly detail oriented and that has its strengths. i suspect he was always challenged in the ‘soft skills’ department with how he treats others, his general manner, and failure to read his audience. as he as aged, it is this weakness that has become the most glaring, not any strengths he may have had.

      • BB says:

        And 20-30 years- a generation- ago, his sexist and condescending manner would have been much more normal. The way he and MOM treated the judge, and every female witness was glaringly sexist. They are dinosaurs, I hope their arrogance helped sink GZ’s ship.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          absolutely. one of the statements that disgusted me most was the late night hearing regarding the animation. o’mara referred to selma mora as ‘prancing around the court room’ when it was he who demanded such — that this architect was put on display in such a blatantly sexist manner and then belittled for it was sickening. you are right, i suspect the jury saw it as well.

  195. Dang, look at the Zimbot’s, the hate in their hearts are so powerful that it rejects 100yrs of proven forensic science.

  196. “To the living we owe respect; to the dead we owe only the truth.” – Voltaire

  197. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    Is GUY finished?

    • bettykath says:

      That’s one of the most powerful scenes I’ve ever seen. It creeps in on me every once in awhile.

      • bettykath says:

        Johnnie Got His Gun is a book I read in middle school (not as an assignment). One of those things that gave me a perspective that has shaped my anti-war feelings ever since.

      • Malisha says:

        Bettykath — it’s coming to Broadway this year, later this year.

    • MrSykes says:

      Guy definitely took his closer from this playbook. Humanizing Trayvon was the most important thing he could do.

  198. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    Zimmerman looks fried… MOM isn’t a dumb lawyer he creates a problem to stop the flow of Guy’s rebuttal..

    Defense you are in trouble. Continue to pray for Trayvon Martins mother and father… my heart is broken.

    But when I see Zimmerman walk through the pearly JAIL GATES my heart will be at rest… Wonder how much weight he will lose…

  199. I hope they follow his advice and roleplay the gun grab.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      They will, I am sure.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      yup, hot girl on girl action in the jury room
      he makes a good point, you don’t even need to try it to know. the hubster and i tried with me on top, although we are similar in size. if the kids had walked in .. .. oh boy, well, it would have scarred them for life although we were fully clothed.

      we did try to act out all of the words this defendant claimed as truth and it was patently ridiculous.

      • cielo62 says:

        Hot girl on girl action and I MISSED IT?? Oh man! 😦

        • fauxmccoy says:

          heh heh heh … here i am, actively encouraging ‘crimes against nature’ within the sanctum of the court room. i assume you’ll be sitting with me in hell?

          ok, the only ‘crime against nature’ in that courthouse was the mother and father forced to bury their child as a result of this defendant’s actions.

          • cielo62 says:

            faux mccoy~ I will PROUDLY sit with you in hell, since everyone I know with any modicum of sense will be there as well!


          • fauxmccoy says:

            excellent — we’ll give the devil his due together then, my friend 🙂 my darling hole of sweet brown delight 🙂

          • cielo62 says:

            faux mccoy~ well THAT’S a new one! It’s certainly… colorful! ; )


          • cielo62 says:

            faux mccoy~ also anything having to do with gz is a crime against nature AND a crime against humanity.


          • fauxmccoy says:

            tru dat, homie 😉

          • Vickis Smith says:


            The “Old Testament” contains those laws forbidding many things, but although male homosexuality is stated as a sin, ” there isn’t a single word in it entirety that mentions female homosexuality.

            Even in the “New Testament” there is only one reference to female homosexuality, where Paul calls it “unseemly”.

            This isn’t the forum for any discussion of religion, obviously, but there are interesting theories about this.

            I am devout in my faith, but I hate to disappoint you- from what I’ve seen I doubt whether you’ll qualify for that rather unpleasant place. :o)

            The afterlife is a continuation of our learning experience- nothing boring. Ultimately each of us will wind up where he/she belongs.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            i consider myself agnostic at this point. i admit, that i just don’t know, although always open to new information.

            when one takes religion out of the picture, the phrase “crimes against nature” become meaningless regarding homosexuality. they do lead me to consider what crimes man has committed to his own environment however — that would be the true ‘crime against nature’.

          • Vickis Smith says:

            Yes, mankind is quite adept at myriad crimes against nature.

            But as regards homosexuality, since this occurs in some animal species as well, nature must be committing crimes against itself…

          • cielo62 says:

            Vickis~ It’s not so much that nearly every mammalian species has homosexuality, but what’s important to remember is the percentage. Not even a full 10%. I don’t think that puts the species in any danger of extinction.


          • fauxmccoy says:

            would have to agree

          • cielo62 says:

            Vickis~ My Jewish Orthodox best friend of over 30 years told me this years ago. For men, it’s an issue of “wasted seed” since that’s the reason they give against male masturbation. I personally don’t believe we go to “a place” at all when we finish here. It’s just upward and onward, as CS Lewis said. BTW thanks for the encouraging word. Too many religions already place me there, roasting to THEIR heart’s content!  LOL 🙂


    • towerflower says:

      I hope so, I tried this early on with my son, to hit fogen in the face you never would see the gun or be able to reach for it. To see it or be able to reach it and you could never reach the face to hit them.

  200. Court is in recess for lunch until 2 pm.

    Judge Nelson will instruct the jury after the break.

  201. Woow! says:

    Yamiche Alcindor ‏@Yamiche 2m
    Strong Guy quote: “This case isn’t about race. It’s about right or wrong.” Ask yourself would you convict #Trayvon if he shot #Zimmerman ?

  202. I still strongly suspect that 1 minority juror will refuse to convict GZ. I have a feeling she may even be associated with GZ’s family.

  203. My Forehead Tho says:

    “The last thing Trayvon did on this earth was try to get home”


  204. Sophia33 says:

    The defense looked defeated at the end.

    Guy provided he evidence. The IMPOSSIBILITY of being about to reach the gun! Those missing 2 minutes are FACT!

    The defense looked defeated.

  205. whonoze says:

    Could have hit the physical evidence harder, but got a few key fact points in amongst the emotional appeals. Much better than BdlR, and possibly just good enough. We shall see…

  206. RobUK says:

    I preferred Frederick Leatherman’s case. I wish he and LLMPapa had been the prosecutors instead. I’m very disappointed and underwhelmed by the states case. John Guy spent too much time trying to pull heart strings again in my opinion. I wanted all the cold hard facts presented to the jury like those presented on this site with the key evidence that shows it couldn’t have been self-defense emphasized and elaborated on.

  207. Yorazigo says:

    Jury instruction at: trial

  208. Woow! says:

    A report’s tweet said MOM objected while Guy explained reasonable doubt. So I guess he is the only attorney that can address that word with the jury.

  209. BB says:

    Nejeme is comparing jury to Tweeters and bloggers- dumb assumption to think they are internet opnionators.

  210. My Forehead Tho says:

    I think O’Mara wanted to put on a show for the jury. Essentially, “Object. They’re lying to you”.

  211. Why did the defense make their case about race? They played the race card about their whole case. Trayvon was this “scary black man”, was their whole case.

  212. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    This Guy is AMAZING! Thank you prosecution for clearing it up.. MAN HE IS GOOD!!! Omara is just trying to break the thoughts of everyone this lawyer is riveting….

  213. BB says:

    Really big contrast between his closing and MOMs cold and weak mess of word salad.

    • roderick2012 says:

      @BB, it helps when you have the truth on your side.

    • vickie s. votaw says:

      MOM sat riveted, I think he really admired Guy

      • MrSykes says:

        Yeah you can definitely tell he has a lot of respect for him.

        • vickie s. votaw says:

          I can’t say that at all, but maybe he isn’t attached to whether a client is guilty or innocent. Except for a few lawyers, I thought most are like MOM, I couldn’t do that. I couldn’t defend a guilty person. I just thought he was impressed. Maybe it was just my admiration for Guy affecting what I saw. I do not care for MOM

  214. MrSykes says:

    I am a straight man, but I am positively IN LOVE with John Guy. IN LOVE. I am overcome with emotion right now. This was absolutely beautiful.

  215. gbrbsbblogs says:

    Ooops… JN giving the atties a going over!

  216. MichelleO says:

    God bless the Martin/Fulton family. Justice For Trayvon Martin.

  217. vickie s. votaw says:

    O m g, I died & went to heaven, thank you Jesus, shit that was beautiful! Holy, holy, holy!

  218. gwynne says:

    Continued prayers for Trayvon’s loved ones. They must be exhausted.

  219. Yorazigo says:

    Makes me furious that MOM want through all his garbage about reasonable doubt and then interrupts JG at that juncture!

  220. elle says:

    Alright my loves, we give it to the heavens now. Think of Trayvon.

  221. Someone finally corrected her on “Twitters, tweets”…Thank you.

  222. amsterdam1234 says:

    Clap, clap, clap.

  223. Guy was just perfect.

  224. gwynne says:

    Thank you Mr. Guy!

  225. Nef05 says:

    SOB – Guy just pulled “A Time To Kill” on the mostly white jury. I’ll be damned. Did not see that coming!

  226. Sophia33 says:

    I think I heard a juror sniff at the end.

  227. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    16 years and 21 days

    The last thing Trayvon did was to try to get home.

    *tears* 😥

  228. Judy75201 says:


  229. ada4750 says:

    Euh … 17 years and 21 days

  230. BB says:

    the last thing he tried to do on this earth, was try and get home.
    THAT is what you say to mothers. Trust your heart.