Discussion regarding John Guy’s rebuttal argument in Zimmerman trial

Friday, July 12, 2013

Good afternoon:

I started a new thread to continue discussing John Guy’s rebuttal argument.

I provide a link to livestream coverage in case the jury reaches a verdict or sends out a question.

Here’s the link to the livestream coverage.


See you in court.

694 Responses to Discussion regarding John Guy’s rebuttal argument in Zimmerman trial

  1. MedicineBear says:

    Here’s a caption for the above picture:


  2. HeresLookingatYou says:

    I’m looking at my 4 yr old grandson his name Tayvon…
    I hold my breath this verdict means so much…

  3. crazy1946 says:

    In 2012 there were approx. 5740 children murdered with guns in our nation. Trayvon was but one of them, yet we have spent all our energy focused on his death, why? When we finally see this long journey that many of us have spent almost a year and a half following and participating in the quest for justice, will we simply go back to our “normal” lives and forget about justice for all children? Is it not time that we actually look inward and see if we are guilty of unintentionally participating in these crimes by not standing up and letting our voices be heard demanding an end to gun violence? While some think that race is the issue, and while I will agree it is a factor, it is not the total cause of the problem. These deaths should not be swept under the carpet and ignored simply because of race of the victim, as many have been in the past! Does it matter to you in your heart if the child was black or white, brown? Isn’t it time that we, as a group and even as a nation become color blind and realize that we are all human and all feel pain, all feel joy, and all of us actually suffer when we collectively lose a child from amongst our midst? We have a choice going forward, do we stand together as a united people or do we simply go back to ignoring the deaths of our neighbors children until the day that suddenly we are the “neighbor” who has lost a child to violence? I refuse to sit still doing nothing as your child faces the prospect of death by any reason that I can help prevent in any way….. can/will you say the same?

    • cielo62 says:

      Crazy- union you, both in sentiment and in action. It was something I said also to Searching Mind.


    • Lonnie Starr says:

      I’m sure we all agree that all of these child deaths are reprehensible, so then, as you ask, why is this one death getting so much attention? Well, in most cases the police are diligently pursuing investigations into those deaths, but we note that they did not do so in this case.

      As a general rule of thumb we note that, this is what usually happens when the victim is black and the killer is white, the system seems to forgive and forget, and/or try to ignore these types of cases. Which explains why this case is getting so much attention. Not because we deplore the deaths of other children less, but we deplore the differences in treatment cases such as this get.

      At the out set this was called a “good shoot”, simply on the shooters word for it. No investigation needed, case closed! After the hue and cry was raised we discovered what the evidence was, that the police and prosecutors were calling “a good shoot”. Any fool could see that it was not a good shoot, it was simply another case of a white shooting a black being ignored by the powers that be.

      Trying to pretend that it was anything else is ludicrous.

  4. HeresLookingatYou says:

    I would imagine these woman want to get back home soon.
    I hope they realize that’s all Trayvon was wanting too.

  5. where i come from it is all over the news if an adult follows a child or teenager….whether it is by car or foot. It is all over the news and they send out descriptions and warnings. Unfortunately Trayvon did not get a chance to call the police, he thought he lost him and when the guy showed up again it was too late.

    sucks what happened to you boyd. So it’s not illegal to follow someone but then who protects the person being followed….What are they to think? is it ok to harass and behave in a threatening manner? Like the defense tried to say, is gz suppose to wait and find out if the next blow kills him? Well what about the kid being followed, is he suppose to wait and find out if this cac’s next move is to kill or rape him? Does he have to be killed or raped before he has the right to fight back? smh. It really is common sense and Guy nailed it

    • jodiwankanobi says:

      oops this was suppose to be a reply to boyd ^^

    • aussiekay says:

      Yeah but it would have been totally wrong if Boyd had ducked into a doorway, waited for the would-be wallet snatcher to come past, stuck his foot out, tripped the guy then strangled him.

      The normal and legal preventive action for being followed is to… not run actually, Trayvon had it right, WALK FAST. Running tells the stalker you’re onto him. Walking faster, crossing the street, going into a shop, may be just innocent unaware actions, so they’re less likely to start running to catch up with you.

      Go where there’s other people. Walk facing traffic, not the same direction.

      Glad you survived both times, Boyd. Only keep enough in the wallet for what you’re buying; the rest is safer loose in a shirt pocket.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      The defendant never once even tried to advise the child that he meant him no harm. He knew that he had frightened the child, yet he never even mentioned that the police were even involved, that they had been notified and were on their way. He did not identify himself, nor explain what was going on, instead he maintained himself as a complete stranger of unknown intentions. Even when asked to explain his actions, he angrily refused to do so and instead issued a rather frightening challenge of his own “what are you doing around here?” Which could mean anything from “We don’t allow your kind around here”, to “I intend to take care of you!”

      This response, if anything, only served to heighten the levels of fear and hostility present. Yet, the aggressor expects his own conduct to be ignored and/or excused.

      So the question is, will these jurors excuse and/or ignore the defendants conduct and concentrate only on the claimed actions of the child? As if the child should have expected that this stranger following him, without identifying himself, had every right to do so?

  6. Dee says:

    I think that when the state got the judge to add the manslaughter charge that saved the state from losing this case. I am sure that these women are going to give him a manslaughter charge as a slap on the wrist, not really realizing that this manslaughter charge hold 10 to 30 years, with the lesser charges included, which can bring this to 30 years.

    They are not going to know how many years the manslaughter holds I don’t think until the judge sentences him. Because West was shocked to hear that he could get 30 years. Because after the judge said this, West said no I don’t think so, and the judge said yes it hold the same weight of 20 to 30 with lesser charges. And West stood there with his mouth opened.

    So I think that was a game changer which they had to tell GZ about. Because I don’t think that they are going to give him life, but they will give him the lesser charge which is manslaughter.

    It goes to show you how biases these news groups are they all automatically think that this man is going to get acquitted. I don’t see how they are forgetting about Rachel’s testimony that shows that he was the aggressor, when she said Trayvon said ”get off of me” Everybody seems to be forgetting her, rather you liked her or not she was the main witness to the meeting of Trayvon and GZ.

    • crazy1946 says:

      Dee, The state did not “get” Judge Nelson to add the manslaughter charge to this case! It was already there from the very start as a secondary charge to murder 2! Can’t consider something that was in open sight and discussed long ago as a game changer….. Will the jury use that charge instead of murder 2? Perhaps, but we won’t know for sure until they render their verdict.

    • type1juve says:

      The fact that West didn’t know about the penalty for manslaughter speaks to his incompetence as an attorney. O’Mara and West should have advised Fogen long ago about this instead of focusing their attention on smearing an innocent 17 year old victim. It is also telling that they are confident that he won’t be convicted on murder 2.

  7. boyd says:

    I’m furious with the following is okay stuff.

    a while back I explained a little about being followed and mugged. Well I too was followed by car and then chased by foot when I was a teen. I always thought I was followed by car for 1 block. But who knows because that’s when I noticed it. Once I noticed they slowly drove past me and make a right turn. I was somewhat confused, about what just happened and did not recognize them. Brushed it off as someone looking for an address. Now I’m at my aunt’s house, she hates smoking, so I’m smoking a cigarette by the side of the house before going in and out of the corner of my eye, 3 guys are running towards me from the backyard. What they had done was drive to the next street and run into the backyard of my aunt’s neighbor to get me,
    They beat me up, said some things to me about knifing me blah blah blah. It was Mistaken identity, I never saw them in my life.

    Second time I was followed was in Philly, shopping. Opened up my fat wallet too wide. Again out of the corner of my eye, I see this guy with a LION’s look in his eye, like a cat who sees a mouse. It was so obvious. Looking right at the wallet. Oh shit I say. I left the store and sure enough this guy leaves at the same time and follows in my direction about 2 bocks. There was a mall nearby 5 levels high , with a subway station in the basement. I went in there and lost him

    anyone who says following is okay, is out of their minds, only police,
    or following a guy who initiated a crime is okay. .

    • jodiwankanobi says:

      hi boyd i posted below but it was suppose to be a reply to you

    • SearchingMind says:

      If you notice/think that you are being followed, do the following:

      1. Stop, take a deep breath (counting 1 – 10);

      2. Turn around and focus your eyes like a hawk on the eyes of the stalker;

      3. Do not look away. And do not walk away. Continue focusing your eyes on the stalker (from a healthy distance) until he FIRST blinks and looks away, looks up again at you, notices that you still have him engaged and blinks again, looks- and/or walks away from you.

      Stalkers like GZ are true cowards. They strike ONLY if and where they sense weakness. It is a psychological-warfare. If you lose it, you invite more intrusive and physical actions/violence to yourself.

    • Vickis Smith says:

      @Boyd- I well-understand how you feel-

      When I was 11, we had just moved to NYC temporarily, and I went to a children’s matinee, I was sitting in my seat, when a man uniform came and sat by me; he then started to caress my back.

      I had a pocket knife with me (my mom would have had a conniption) and I opened it and gently tapped his hand with the back of it. I was scared but there were others in the audience, of course. He moved away from me.

      When I left the theater, however, I saw him following me- and I was scared, even though there were others on the street. Luckily there was a police officer and I went up to him. He saw that and ran.

      I was followed 2 other times, both while I lived in Hollywood. I didn’t realize it the first time- it was around midnight, and as I was still indulging in bulemia, I felt the urge to go to the store and get something, which I did. He evidently followed me back- and when I parked in the underground garage he got out, running towards me and exposing himself,. Don’t laugh, but I whipped off my glasses so he wasn’t “successful” in his quest. He then ran back to his car (it was outside the garage) and got away. I was shaking, I can tell you.

      The last time was when I was still living there- the following almost ended in rape, but luckily when I yelled for help some people ran out, which stopped his attempted strangling and rape. I had first yelled “fire” because I’d remembered people were more likely to respond to that than “help”- but that brought nothing. Happily these people cared.
      BTW, in those days (70’s) the police seemed to always suspect the woman; there I was, with scratches from throat to navel, I couldn’t describe the man (early am and dark), and the police treated me as if I had been accusing someone of date rape!

      But, unlike you, I wasn’t beaten up- that must have been horrible.

  8. SearchingMind says:

    I am SURE GZ strongly feels guilty and convicted. Know how I know that? I will tell you. When Judge Nelson read a certain part of the jury instruction, the camera was focused on GZ. When Judge Nelson said the following words: “(…) WE the jury find the defendant George Zimmerman guilty of murder in the second degree (….)” GZ at that same indivisible moment reacted spontaneously like some taped him on the head with a hammer and may have released a little pie in his pant! How true is the saying: “cowards die many times before their deaths”!

  9. Lonnie Starr says:

    This jury can set a slew of new precedents by acquitting foggen.
    1. They will give NW’ers the ok to patrol the nabe.
    2. Give NW’ers the right to carry firearms on these patrols.
    3. Give any stranger the right to follow anyone they choose, without having to identify themselves, and no matter that their actions cause their victims to fear for their lives, no action can be taken because what they are doing is legal.

    4. Parents will need to explain to their children that, what they have previously told them was wrong, that strangers do have the right to follow them and that they should not be concerned when it happens, because it is not against the law.

    4a. If the follower decides to capture the child, the child should just go along quietly without creating any unnecessary and/or illegal fuss.

    5. Perhaps in the next election, the citizens of this state, can vote for a candidate who will sponsor a law, requiring child killers to at least return the body at their own expense or face a heavy fine.

    Yes my friend, Florida is a very ill state..

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      That about sums it up, Lonnie.

      You are right!

    • boyd says:

      yeah and the color of NW and the child will dertermine if it’s okay or not

    • SearchingMind says:

      Lonnie, your post shows why O’Mara and West are very bad lawyers. The items you enumerated are what O’Mara and West should at all cost have zoomed in on: the implications and consequences of an acquittal and why such should not factor in jury’s deliberations and if it does factor how it should factor and what actions GZ has taken to make sure that past mistakes will not be repeated. O’Mara did not do any of that. On the contrary, O’Mara left the following rock-solid in the consciousness of the jurors: (a) GZ racially profiled Trayvon as a criminal (O’Mara claimed that past burglaries have been perpetrated by young AA males who resembled Trayvon!); (b) GZ then followed Trayvon in his “tschruck”; (c) Trayvon ran to get away from GZ; (d) GZ exited his tschruck and then followed Trayvon on foot; (e) three minutes late Trayvon was dead with a bullet in his heart; (f) GZ does not regret anything and would not do anything differently (O’Mara inexplicably did not even try to neutralize the effects of GZ’s declaration on the Hannity Show); (g) Trayvon caused his own death!, etc. I do not say this to demean O’Mara, but he (O’Mara) and West are arguably among the worst lawyers I have ever met. O’Mara is excellent in playing juvenile tricks and acting sanctimonious. But playing ‘tricks’ and acting sanctimoniously are not the domain of good lawyers. I don’t see how GZ does not get convicted for at least manslaughter.

    • HeresLookingatYou says:

      Yes….. this verdict will send a message around this country. Is it hunting season or do we still hold scared our children ,our children’s children ,all children . This verdict will be the blue print.
      These woman can make ever child a little safer , or unleash the monsters of society.
      I hope they choose wisely.

      • jodiwankanobi says:

        well said HL@Y

      • HeresLookingatYou says:

        Sacrid not scared

      • Vickis Smith says:

        WOW- don’t know which thread to use, but this was in my email: the jury has just asked a question regarding manslaughter- what else could this mean other than they have not accepted the idea of self-defense, I think perhaps at least 2 of the jurors might be for conviction, from what I’ve read/heard from some who have been in the court room.

        For me, this is the most hope I’ve held.

    • Tzar says:

      I see lots of positives in there

      1. We can improve the economy by:

      -Reducing debt by doing away with those pesky police officers, courts and juries.

      -Increasing gun sales to neighborhood watch people.

      -I foresee the NRA pushing legislation to reduce the carrying age to 12-13 yo (or the age when one can walk alone to the store to go get candy), they certainly have the right to defend themselves too; so a whole new market demographic for gun sales. (cha ching)

      -increase sales and jobs in body armor companies.

      -increase sales and jobs in body bag companies.

      this could be a real boon

  10. Is Wild Bill in Sanford with 10 thousand others of like mind?
    Isn’t that what he planned
    according to his You Tube video?.

  11. Romaine says:

    I slept through his presentation, omara and west should invest in sleeping aids for those who suffer with sleep apnea. they’d making a bundle with their boring voices that go on, and on and on. if there was a product for blowing smoke up ones arse to relieve hemorrhoids those two would be prime candidates for the reduction of hemorrhoid surgery. The two of them pull more shit out of their own arses than cows grazing in a field. if only that slab of concrete would have bounced back and slapped omara dead center in the middle of his forehead during his Bullshit presentation would he have known and understood the disrespect he was showing towards the taking of Trayvon Benjamin Martins LIFE…

    Trayvon brought and used concrete as a weapon, and his client couldn’t fight bullshit…

    so one can only conclude that Fogen knew he couldn’t fight, armed himself with the fact that if a fight broke out he was going to kill his suspect; he premeditated a loss knowing he had to kill to win…I’m just saying…

  12. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Did anyone else have a hard time paying attention to what O’Mara was saying? He was boring me so much, until I had a hard time sitting through it.

    • Xena says:

      @Granny. O’Mara talks in run-on sentences. People who do that lose listeners. Junior speaks in the same manner.

      • Tzar says:

        it’s not just the grammar it’s the fallacious-logically and factually- substance and content of his words too.

        • Xena says:


          it’s not just the grammar it’s the fallacious-logically and factually- substance and content of his words too.

          Right. West paints his sentences with colorful adjectives based on his opinion, so answering the question at the end of his diatribe is agreeing with his adjectives. But O’Mara’s run-on sentences leave nothing to try to comprehend other than the spirit/tone in his words, and it’s condescending, belittling, and rude.

    • Vickis Smith says:

      @Granny Here in Califonia we’ve had to be up soooo early (sigh)- but this morning I stayed in bed to watch- but was so tired and ultimately bored, I tried to sleep through the rest- think I did doze off.

      Have a hunch he’d stayed up all night, perhaps revising his material; wonder how attentive the jurors were-

    • parrot says:

      O’Mara’s inarticulate summation was anticlimactic.

      I couldn’t listen to it all, either. But, does it matter?

      He was all over the place trying to influence the jury pool before the trial, so we know what he was going to say in summation.

    • crazy1946 says:

      Granny, O’mara spoke? 😉

    • SearchingMind says:

      I wasn’t surprised at O’Mara’s performance at all. That performance is a classic example of what happens when defending the indefensible.

  13. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    gz’s daddy was buying sodas and candy for everyone and laughing outside the court. They are so sure they have it all wrapped up and George is not gonna have to pay for his crime. It is almost like the Zimmerman family and media are pre-celebrating.

    The whole Zimmerman family is not worth two dead flies.

  14. Romaine says:

    Fogens misinterpretation of trayvon being on drugs or something could have been explained away by telling the jurors that Trayvon was on the phone with his friend using his earbuds that have the mic on the cord. as Trayvon is walking and talking looking around to see where his is going may look suspicious to anyone because he has on his hoodie to shelter him from the rain concealing the wiring to the phone. Then asking the question of how many times have you encountered someone talking on there cell phone and may think that person is saying something to you when they are really chatting on their cell; or how many times have you thought someone was speaking to themself because you did’t see their cell phone or blue tooth device. Fogens assumption of Trayvon being up to know good was due to his not being more observant and prejudging based on his frustration of they always get away. Mr. Guy was absolutely right, it was in Fogens heart to pursue, detain, and murder his suspect he deemed to be a criminal. Fogens mind was depraved, filled with ill will towards his victim who when he first saw him just looked out of place, hating the fact that the police always arrive late and his suspect was about to escape. Shooting Trayvon through the heart, collapsing his lungs, causing Trayon to drown from within on his own blood, climbing on his back demanding TRAYVON TO STAY DOWN; he was already dead. That last act was a total disregard for TRAYVONS LIFE. The killer then walks away to discuss his minor injuries and his gun, makes a phone call, refuses to seek extensive medical treatment for his so called broken nose and tiny cuts. At this point Fogen was basking in his victory of making his first kill; the only thing important was telling his story, bonding with his delusional cop buddies. Surely he was going to get a recommendation for bringing down a perp in his hood. Not realizing he had killed the wrong mothers son. His depraved mind did not allow him to believe there would be a family that cared about the life he had just extinguished without just cause.
    Innocent men don’t hide when they know they have commited no wrong. I hope the jurors have the ability to see that. Innocent men stand their ground, and continue to fight for what he knows is right, legal and just.
    Fogen ran in fear the first night because he knew he was dead to right wrong in taking this childs life.
    His heart told him that on the first night of the incident and it is telling him that now.
    I pray these six women will use their common sense and the law to bring justice to the death of TRAYVON BENJAMIN MARTIN.

    • and that’s the bottom line. and anyone who cannot see that does not deserve to breath and I want them OFF This earth! I can’t Imagine even after all the hate I’ve seen from the zimmerlovers, finding 6 of them that ended up on this jury seems far fetched!

      I think the normal women are the jury will not let this asshole get away!

    • Xena says:


      Fogens misinterpretation of trayvon being on drugs or something could have been explained away by telling the jurors that Trayvon was on the phone with his friend using his earbuds that have the mic on the cord.

      That possibility might have been introduced had the defense used the toxicology report and misrepresented it. What happened is that after wasting the court’s time to have the toxicology report entered at trial, the defense decided against it. To present that report required an expert to explain it. They knew, or had good reason to know, that they could not get any expert to say that the amount of THC in Trayvon’s blood would make him appear to be “on drugs or something.”

      IOWs, the defense wasted the court’s time to impress Trayvon haters.

      • Romaine says:

        so true xena, so much wasted time on pure bs, simply for the love of money, so much free money to appease the racist multitudes. how can they sleep at night knowing the wrong and injustice of the facts.

        Evil will twist and turn the truth in so many dimensions to succeed, I will have to paraphrase Mr Guys statement “the dead are owed the truth”

        I pray daily for truth and GODS JUSTICE in the loss of Trayvon Benjamin Martins’ LIFE.

        Let not GODS JUSTICE in the loss of Trayvon Benjamin Martins’ Life be in VAIN.

        May the angels continue to encamp around and about the parents of Trayvon, the jurors, the supporters, and the law of our Nation that true justice will be served in the loss of this young mans life.

        I can only smile and feel joy knowing that GOD is a GOOD and almighty GOD, Knowing that his word does not return to him VOID.

        • Xena says:


          so true xena, so much wasted time on pure bs, simply for the love of money, so much free money to appease the racist multitudes.

          Yeah — wonder how much that appeal cost them to depose Crump? Then O’Mara subpoenaed Facebook and Twitter and got no where. Oh — and the 7-Eleven for the credit card receipts in effort to identify the 3 guys who came into the store after Trayvon left.

          Wonder how much all those depositions cost to depose every member of the SPD? Remember the technician for the voice stress test was suppose to have heard Tracy say “no” to the voice on the tape, but Singleton ending up coming to court and lying about it. Serino didn’t see her there. Tracy didn’t see her there.

          how can they sleep at night knowing the wrong and injustice of the facts.

          By West’s behavior in court, I would say by consuming lots of alcohol. O’Mara? By putting the hard stuff off on West.

          Evil will twist and turn the truth in so many dimensions to succeed, I will have to paraphrase Mr Guys statement “the dead are owed the truth”

          I’m learning daily that when actions and words are not according to the nature and ways of him who is Truth, in this hour, even the truth spoken for evil doesn’t prevail. Proof? The devil quoted scripture but with an evil motivation for an evil intent.

          May the angels continue to encamp around and about the parents of Trayvon, the jurors, the supporters, and the law of our Nation that true justice will be served in the loss of this young mans life.

          Amen. So it is spoken. So shall it be.

          Enjoyed your comment.

          • Romaine says:

            lol you see it too, omara will throw west to the lions every time…and west will shuffle up front like the lil pawn and say, yea it was me.

          • crazy1946 says:

            Xena, ” The devil quoted scripture but with an evil motivation for an evil intent”.
            It has been many years since I have heard that, and in my opinion that old saying should be printed on all of our money right beneath the “In God We Trust”! We as a people have seen many examples of this in just the last several years, and as we get closer to the final moments of time, will see even more! Thank you for posting those few simple words as a reminder to us….

          • Xena says:

            @crazy1946. You are welcomed.

            “If I had a son, he would look like Trayvon.” True, logical, and scientific words with no evil intent. Look how evil folks quote it for evil. I remember the Apostle Paul having something to say about those using the truth in unrighteousness.

          • Michael says:

            Interesting point

            Maybe the system needs to change

            Beyond a reasonable doubt could instead be
            “The most reasonable conclusion of a reasonable person”

    • MrSykes says:

      Absolutely. Depraved indifference to life due to his actions (or lack thereof) during and immediately after the shooting. Shot Trayvon out of spite due to Trayvon daring to fight back to protect himself. Bam. There’s your murder 2.

  15. Jun they brought it up about where gz changed his story about where he saw Trayvon and the jury has a map and all the tapes.

    I think the state saw so much circumstance evidence and they think the jury will piece it together. That’s what it looked like to me.
    when BDLR was closeing he kept telling them to look at this and that, like the CCV videos of the clubhouse, suggesting they might even see a person on the video!
    THATS why they asked for a list of inventory of the evidence today! THEY ARE GOING TO SEE ALL THE EVIDENCE WE SAW! it’s like the state gave THEM a mystery to solve. I swear that’s what it totally looked like in my mind as I listened to closings by the state.

    when I realized what I thought the state was doing I had to think the state trusts the jury. and I trust any reasonable human being to find gz guilty of the murder that he did.

    • racerrodig says:

      Very often people NEED to figure it out for themselves….Just like in “The Wizard of Oz” They feel trusted when that happens. Sometimes spoon feeding someone puts them on the defensive……any parents out there ???

      I agree that the state has so much circumstantial and direct evidence that the defense cannot disprove, it’s as if the state has more factual proof. The questions Bernie says are unanswered and The Moron Man said are proof there is no case are UNANSWERED and need to be answered, plain & simple.

      Why are they unanswered ?? O’ Mara could not possibly risk any more lies floating out there. Fogen stated he would not testify by his own decision and less than 3 hours later there’s The Moron Man telling the media his client wanted to testify and has a story to tell……..Next time boys, get it together.

      • I understand the need to figure things out, especially in court case for a jury, and that the state was telling them is gz’s story is pure bullshit. what I wonder is why couldn’t they just say Zimmerman lied and that means he’s guilty since self defense is based on the credibility of the asshole claiming it.

        and why or did I miss it, didn’t they say there even if it is self defense you can’t use deadly force before you try every other means to defend yourself? and that BECAUSE THE IDIOT was the aggressor he had no right to use deadly force? I don’t know if I’m even making sense, I’m tired and stressed out with emotions!

      • aussie says:

        They can only be given evidence that was introduced in the trial. So there is a lot of potential evidence that WE saw, that the jury won’t get to see. But items like the clubhouse videos, phone records etc were introduced in court, just not given a lot of time.

        Yes GZ wanted to testify. Badly wanted to testify. But they knew they couldn’t risk it. That’s why West kept interrupting when JN was asking him, to make sue he stuck to the lawyers’ decision and didn’t accidentally say YES I WANNA TALK.

    • Momma says:

      I’ve been confused about the bloody nose and bloody head photos. Are they in evidence? I thought they couldn’t be since there was no chain of custody.

      • aussiekay says:

        I’m not sure. They were certainly used as exhibits. The nose one was taken with him sitting in the police car, I think that was shown around to see if people knew him. It was “forgotten” on a police computer for 3 weeks and the phone the original was in got lost.

        The back of head was taken by a witness, and he gave evidence he took it, so that one is in, I think, so that was “forgotten” on a computer for a week or two, as well.

        • Dave says:

          They could have had it disallowed but they would have had to throw Officer Wagner under the bus to do so. The issue of police misconduct was off the table so the prosecution had to accept it. Anyway, the picture had already been seen by every nonAmish person in America.

  16. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    I am becoming concerned that we have not seen kindheart posting.

    Has anyone seen any posts by kindheart lately?

    • aussie says:

      Not for a good while, unless she also goes by some other name.

    • ladystclaire says:

      She hasn’t been posting to much since Morpheus Flux passed away. she mainly posted at HP but, since her friend passed away, she wrote that she didn’t think, that she would be posting much if at all.

      I often think of her and, I miss reading her poetry as well as her comments about this case. she is one classy lady, just like Sybrina.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:


      Kindheart, if you are reading this please drop in just to say hello.
      I would love to hear from you.

  17. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    May the jurors hearts be touched with the TRUTH.
    May their hearts be pure.
    May their hearts be honest.
    May their minds be open to common sense.
    May their minds be sharp to see the lies and the implications of the lies.

    May Trayvon receive the recognition he deserves.
    May we see true justice.

  18. IMBack says:

    I think its time to STOP talking about what should have or not have been said… The healing starts now!

  19. Romaine says:

    I heard a few of the jurors are licensed gun owners. not new to gun ownership so it should be interesting when they review the evidence, I hope they do the re-enactment of the deadly shot.

    • towerflower says:

      Not exactly true, a couple have guns or know a family member with a gun. Florida does not license gun owners. One jury member used to have a CCW–got it at the same time of her husband–but let it expire and did not renew it.

  20. IMBack says:

    Im just feeling like I felt on day one… This is sad and not fair..Trayvon should be dead.

  21. Jun says:

    I dont know why Guy did not bring this up

    On the phone call, Fogen said they were by the clubhouse, and then Trayvon ran

    When Omara was closing he said Fogen was parked by the T with no explanation whatsoever

    I still feel a timeline would have been good for the case and to breakdown that lie

    • Yeah, that would be perfect. A chart with 5 second intervals that clearly explain where GZ and TM are at based on what time it is. Then compare it with where GZ claims he and TM are at.

    • towerflower says:

      Serino plays Fogen his NEN call and asks him step by step where he is during his call. When he says that TM is coming towards him, he says that he was parked at the clubhouse. He then says shortly after that he follows him down TT and parks near the T where he says he ran.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Guy did bring up the fact that the defense situates Fogen’s story around the T and that this is misleading. And Guy pointed out that the four minute period the defense claims Trayvon had to run home is misleading. Guy pointed out that Fogen doesn’t talk about the two minutes of time that he had to look for Trayvon. And also mentioned that Ms. Surdyka felt she heard the fight move south toward the T, contradicting Fogen’s story, which is fabricated to make it seem as if he didn’t get far from his truck and that he was returning to it, which we can be pretty certain is far from the truth.

  22. IMBack says:

    Its been a long time coming but I know a change is going to come.., oh yes it is.!

    • deetruth says:

      It’s been too hard living but I’m afraid to die’
      Cause I don’t know what’s up there beyond the sky
      … Sam Cooke

  23. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    There was no blood, not even a tiny weeny drop of blood on the concrete. No team had to come out and spray any chemical to clean up any blood, which is typical procedure whenever there is a murder,

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      + the blood on the back of gz’s head was not smeared= he was not on his back when he killed Trayvon.

      • ladystclaire says:

        His head would have been one mass of blood all over his empty head. no human being would have been able to go through something like that and, have normal V/S and, they certainly wouldn’t be in any shape to refuse hospital care or even ambulate in any way, like this liar did.

        They’ve said that there are two jurors work in the medical profession and, they would know that, it is not humanly possible for him or anybody else, to come out of something like he has lied about, and not have any kind of neurological damage what so ever.

        He refused medical treatment because, he knew this never happened and, that they would do a blood draw on his lying ass. IMO, even the PA had a snarky tude going on.

        How some of these people sleep at night, is beyond me because they saw and heard more than they are letting on.

  24. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    There was no blood on the concrete.

  25. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Here is the list of the jurors and a short description to refresh your memory:


  26. fauxmccoy says:

    interesting conversation with the husband regarding a favorite issue here : was the defendant’s nose injury due to gun recoil

    our thoughts: as experienced gun owners, we consider this to be entirely possible, if in fact not likely. as a prosecutor though, i was never sure that i would want to advance that theory.

    analysis: nose injury due to recoil would likely only occur if the defendant was on his back and holding his crap ass gun in close proximity to his face and holding it solely with his non dominant hand. so — to advance this theory would be tantamount to admitting that trayvon was on top. i think the prosecution rejected this concept because eye witness testimony placed both on top at various times, but they consistently maintained that the shot could have been taken from a variety of positions.

    • aussie says:

      WHY would he have to be on the bottom???

      The issue is distance. Recoil OR the hot cartridge would hit the face if the gun is fairly close, ie the arm is not fully extended.

      The gun arm can’t be fully extended, if the other arm is being used to grab a fistful of clothing and drag it in close to the shooter.

      He’d also have to be dodging the victim’s left arm trying to grab his right (shooting) arm. IF they’re standing.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        unless you were on the ground, you would have the opportunity to extend your arm past the point of risking recoil damage to your own face. it would not have to be fully extended. the only way i see recoil injury occurring is by being unusually close to your target with the gun in recoil range of your nose. if you were standing up, it would be highly unlikely to hold a gun close to your own fact when firing.

        gz would have to be dodging at least one of the victim’s arms whether on his back or upright.

      • towerflower says:

        One of the reviews that I read on the Kel-Tec 9 was that it had a strong recoil due to it’s short barrel length. Now also take in mind that fogen used his non-dominant hand and his arm was never fully extended to help with the recoil and it was done with a one-handed grip. Two hands and a fully extended arms help control recoil and he did not have any of that. Also because of the close proximity of the two, I’m convinced that he took a recoil hit to his nose.

        I don’t know of anyone who would attempt to recreate it to be sure.

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:

          And, because gz held the gun with only one hand, the chance of being hit in the face by the recoil was stronger.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @Yahtc — due to caliber and light weight of gun, recoil is more pronounced than others guns and especially when shot with the one, non dominant hand. whether it hit the nose or not would all depend on the extension of the arm, it’s relative position and proximity to the nose. if on his back — i can see no way around this happening. if standing upright, it becomes much less likely and more variables are involved.

  27. Jasmine says:

    I think that one thing that will always bother me is that the police took Fogens’ word for it. I mean what was it about him that made him believable? From jump street, from the moment that Smith arrived on the scene it was ‘self defense’. Isn’t Smith the one that was mouthing that at the scene and for Serino to tell the witnesses that Fogen was the one that was screaming???? I don’t know how Trayvon’s parents have wrapped their mind around how their son was a non-issue, not important enough to be given the ‘benefit of the doubt’. I really feel for them.

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      Here are the reasons why: his father is a judge, Wolfinger the prosecutor is his godfather, Bill Lee is friends with GZ dad with connections all over.

      Everyone of them said “make it go away.” That’s why Zimmerman’s blood was never taken. He sound like he was on drugs. A cover up can easily be done… just look the other way.

    • ladystclaire says:

      @Jasmine, I too feel for Trayvon’s parents as well as for Jahvaris and for Trayvon himself. from the very beginning it was oh lets do a tox on the deceased victim and, never mind about testing the “MURDERER” for any foreign substance in his system. they would have never done that, had Fogen’s victim been white.

      This kid and his family have been so disrespected from the word go and, of all people to do that, it was those who took an oath to serve and protect. Chris Serino did not in any way, have to go along with this cover up but, for some reason he did. Singleton’s demeanor changed for the worst as well. that woman showed a real bad attitude at times, when she was being questioned by the state.

      Both of these people and, especially Serino had their doubts about Fogen’s fabricated lie and, Serino even went as far as to ask some other people if they thought Fogen’s lies about what happened, was believable and, they all said that, his boo boos were in no way consistent with his narrative of that night.

      Trayvon was a child and, the racism in Sanford really came out in support of his twenty nine year old executioner. I never knew, that racism was so prevalent in the state of Florida.

      Trayvon was a child, who will FOREVER be sixteen years and, twenty one days old. what a damn shame, that some people can see fit to support this half breed thug. even those in LE supports this creep. LE serve and protect as long as you are white and, that is not how it’s suppose to be. the rest of the world has been and, still continue to watch this case and, what they are saying is not pretty. they have got a front row seat to the hypocrisy in this country.

      • Momma says:

        I live in Florida and I believe there are still counties that are under the federal mandate to bus school kids from black neighborhoods to white schools. I live in a county that was only released from the requirement a couple of years ago.

    • towerflower says:

      A couple of the cops at the scene already knew fogen from his past calls. Remember the former Car-Max co-worker? He said that fogen was so convincing and a smooth talker in his responses to his harassment complaint that he began to doubt his own complaint. I believe this is what the cops fell for, he is a smooth talker who knew some of them.

      I found it interesting also that Smith was the only officer who noticed any water or grass on fogen. Every other cop only states that they were told it by Smith.

  28. Woow! says:


    “The only one that was injured at all, except for the gunshot was George Zimmerman.

    “I want to address some assumptions,” O’Mara says about the crime scene computer animation. He said this just moments after he told the jury not to make any assumptions.

    On Zimmerman’s “asshole” comment: “He cursed towards those people” who burglarized the neighborhood.

    – On Zimmerman running after Trayvon during the non-emergency 911 call: “The wind was up…” which caused the sounds in the phone.

    taken from: globalgrind.com/news/mark-omaras-full-closing-statement-argument-george-zimmerman-trial-videos#ixzz2Ytb8JbDT

    • racerrodig says:

      The Moron Man said to the effect “…lets assume….” I can’t tell you how many times today saying in effect “..just believe me and my client and never mind those silly things that make him look bad”

      The unanswered questions pose huge problems and that’s the way they thing escapes the facts.

      Assume FogenPhoole is truthful despite the impossibility on how he says he “…drew my firearm…”

      The most glaring problem is his assertion that the animation tells the truth yet doesn’t show 90 % of the event. “Position 1″
      Are you jackin’ me pal……”Position 2?????”

      I would have to think the jury will say…..

      “If you can’t pull the gun…………you must convict”

    • KA says:

      I think the state said it, but I would have phrased it that, although there was no open cases without arrests, Trayvon had to pay with his life for every single stolen bike, break in, petty theft, and frustration that GZ had with his life. Trayvon paid for acts he did not participate it, or even know according to GZ….

      • ladystclaire says:

        It seems that Fogen did this calling LE on people, no matter where his ass was squatting. the IDIOT has a mental problem but, he damn sure knew right from wrong and, that is why he came up with all the lies that he told because, he knew he fucked up, his words not mine. I don’t remember exactly where I read that he said that but, it’s been said that he spoke those very words.

    • MDH says:

      Stating GZ was the only one injured, except for the gunshot is not a very good argument to a logical person by MOM.

      If X hacked up Y with an axe in a fight wherein Y got in one good blow before his demise, how would saying the only one injured was X. except for the lopped of arm and cleaved head on Y be taken as anything but a sick joke?.

      If the jury does not see through this stuff as many talking head do not, then may God have mercy on the USA.

      We have become a country that tramples on the very thing it was spawned upon – reason.

  29. Woow! says:

    After presenting the jury with a huge slab of concrete: “That is not an unarmed teenager with a bag of Skittles trying to get home.”

    • MedicineBear says:

      The duhfense began their case with a bad joke that bombed and ended it with a bad courtroom gimmick that bombed. Full circle, their case bombed.

      “Knock knock.”


      “KNOCK KNOCK.”


      “POUND! POUND!”

      “Go away! We’re sick of your shit! Nobody wants to have to hear you anymore!”

  30. KittySP says:

    Lets all keep these women of the jury lifted in prayer. They didnt ask to be in this position. once again, thanks to GZs actions, 6 other people lives will be changed forever. They dont have an easy job ahead. I couldnt imagine having to look at death photos, of anyone, let alone a 17 yr old boy. What ever personal bias, prejudices, they may have had, I don’t think they will ever be the same emotionally.

  31. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    gz’s father was smiling during closing statements. He has no regard for human life and that lets me know where gz gets it from.

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      They all have a depraved mind. What scares me how many young black men has GZ father illegally put into jail? This man is the Grand Wizard of the KKK….

      • Dee says:

        I think you may be right; he’s been getting favors from somewhere. And it’s not God. You know the KKK are not wearing sheets anymore. They are in suits and uniforms, making laws. Such as SYG which it only works for them. They just turned a young black guy down for it and a matter of fact. Judge Nelson was the one that turned them down.

        • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

          Don’t stop there…Why in God’s name did JN allow that animation in closing after denying it through the entire trial.. Somebody called her and told her she had better help GZ boy… I still feel it is fixed. But Mr. Guy surly gave me a glimmer of hope..

          I still worry… The corruption is so deep in Florida. To many favors owed.. KKK and NRA are major money backers for GZ. How can you sit on your fat a– and eat (was a strategy move on the defense part) off of $30,000 a month. My God the flow of money was phenomenal…

          • towerflower says:

            Some of the expects explained it, but it was never entered into evidence and hence the jury cannot view it over and over again in their room while they debate. But it could be used in their closing arguments, just like his bringing in a chuck of concrete.

      • Vickis Smith says:

        The father isn’t a judge- he’s (was?) a magistrate.

        • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

          What ever he didn’t help any blacks. He trained his son to look down on them…

        • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

          A magistrate is an officer of the state; in modern usage the term usually refers to a judge. This was not always the case; in ancient Rome, a magistratus was one of the highest government officers and possessed both judicial and executive powers. Today, in common law systems, a magistrate has limited law enforcement and administration authority. In civil law systems, a magistrate might be a judge in a superior court; the magistrates’ court might have jurisdiction over civil and criminal cases. A related, but not always equivalent, term is chief magistrate, which historically can denote a political and administrative officer.


      • Vickis Smith says:

        Everyoneis- The KKK despises Catholics- Zimmermans are Catholic.

        • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

          Believe me the KKK isn’t interested in that right now. They help anyone who kills blacks. Lets put it this way I know a couple of people who lived through the KKK evolution… KKK is behind him right along with the NRA and other racist organization dressing in a suit trying to fool people..

          Just my opinion…

          • towerflower says:

            The NRA doesn’t back Z, in fact MOM tried to get their help in way of donations and they told him they were not getting involved.

            The NRA supports responsible gun ownership and usage. As a life member of the NRA and a NRA certified Instructor in several areas I found nothing responsible about Z’s ownership and usage. Not every member of the NRA supports fogen’s actions. I can assure you I was never fooled nor have they attempted to sway my opinion or offered one to me.

          • towerflower says:

            Everyone: This is a statement made by the then President of the NRA 6 weeks after Trayvon was shot.

            David Keene is the president of the NRA. He says, “We have two positions, really. The first one is I watched television just like you have from the other side of the camera and there must be 100 people on television who weren’t there but know exactly what happened. They disagree. I wasn’t there and I don’t know what happened. The facts of that case need to be decided in a courtroom. We don’t know what the facts were, but everything we’ve looked at tells me it doesn’t have anything to do with the Stand Your Ground law.”

        • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

          Zimmerman isn’t a Catholic my bible states “though shall not kill” nor “molest children.” He doesn’t follow the teachings of the Catholic church. If he is a Catholic; I’m Peter Pan…

        • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

        • ay2z says:

          The denomination of fogen is a mystery to me. He claims he’s Catholic, espouses his faith to Singleton, in a self-serving way.

          Contrast that with how he chats up, and tries to manipulate the hate-baiter pastor who wanted to visit Sanford (I forget his name, another ‘forgotten one is good enough for me). Pray with me, fogen asks him, as if they were going to do this for public consumption, rather than private sincerity.

          Fogen manipulates, and uses whatever will work for him.

          • Susan Moore says:

            I don’t believe his religious claims one way or another. What religion says you should not judge your own conduct, not regret and repent your sins, and just blame G-d?

          • vickie s. votaw says:

            It’s Terry something if I remember, smith comes to mind but I’m not sure about the last name

  32. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    GZ stepped in it this time… I know he is sweating…

    • ladystclaire says:

      Yea, for the first time since this trial started, I saw the bastard wiping his head and his face. I hope he is sweating and shitting HOLLOW POINT BULLETS. he can not and should not get away with this crime. he outright MURDERED that child and, not only did he lie about the events of that night, as did his friends at RTL.

      I pray that GOD will place doing the right thing on the hearts and minds of these women and, they will do right by Trayvon and his family.

      For those who think Fogen was justified in killing a child, they may very well one day see what it feels like to bury a child/grandchild/sister or brother. until this happened, I never knew there were so many heartless people in this country. the way this kid and his family have been so mistreated and, disrespected is shameful and, a disgrace to what is suppose to be a civilized country. what some people have done to disrespect this deceased child, is nothing short of equating him with an animal. yet, this is suppose to be the best country in the world. smfh

      • MedicineBear says:

        “I pray that GOD will place doing the right thing on the hearts and minds of these women and, they will do right by Trayvon and his family.”

        She is. : )

  33. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    The jury will probably give their verdict tomorrow morning. That’s what I’m thinking.

    • Dee says:

      I think so too, and I truly believe it will be manslaughter, and by them thinking, it’s a slap on the wrist. However, actually, it holds after gun charge, which is the lesser charges it holds up to 30 years. And the judge can give him the 30 or less. And she differently is known for watching body language in court. She has observed Z not having any remorse. Laughing at things in court concerning other things, other then the murder he committed. I think they will not charge him for M2 but thank God, they added manslaughter and the judge allowed it, because without it for sure he would have walked.

      These women are going to feel the same way the people feel that if Zimmerman stayed in the car, none of this would have every happened. People with guns are not those that would be hallowing. Why didn’t he continue to hallow after the shot went off. He could have continued to hallow until someone came if that was truly him, this is where they dropped the ball. Along with the blood flow on Zimmerman head gravity pulls blood down not side wards. And if he was bleeding laying down he would have smeared the blood which was not done. His head was bleeding as he was leaning over Trayvon. Gravity doesn’t lie.

      • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:


      • cielo62 says:

        Dee~ JN will have no discretion re: the sentencing. Florida has very strict mandatory sentencing for gun related crimes. PLUS there’s an extra 10 years enhancement for killing a minor. In ANY case, gz will have decades behind bars.

      • MedicineBear says:

        I’ll disagree only with the point that the jury will give him a lesser charge than M2. The judge isn’t the only one watching his behavior in court.

        The jury will watch GZ’s recorded words on those interview videos. They’ll hear his words recorded on the NEN call. The element of “ill will” toward the person running away from him is evident USING HIS OWN WORDS AND BEHAVIOR. The lies and inconsistencies in his recorded statements and interviews evidence his KNOWLEDGE OF GUILT. Add to this what the jury witnessed of GZ’s OWN BEHAVIOR in court. They saw a flat, unremorseful, detached attitude toward the Victim’s death from GZ’s OWN BODY LANGUAGE in court. The jury witnessed his LACK OF REGARD for the Victim being demonized and maligned. They witnessed his self-centered, self-serving behaviors and saw that his only shows of emotion were feeling sorry for himself. It is NOT in dispute that GZ CAUSED TRAYVON’S DEATH, and yet the jury saw his lack of emotion as his attorneys BLAMED TRAYVON FOR HIS OWN DEATH.

        What the jury witnessed of GZ during the trial further bolsters the DIRECT EVIDENCE they will find on the audio-video recordings. The timeline and CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE will confirm the direct evidence. All clearly evidences his NON-REGARD FOR Trayvon’s life or ANY LIFE OTHER THAN HIS OWN.

        GZ’s behavior/body language in court, the direct evidence, and the circumstantial evidence ALL support the State’s charges of criminal profiling, ill will, and depraved mind with disregard for another’s human life which resulted in him actively pursuing, confronting, and causing Trayvon Martin’s unnecessary death.

        That’s solidly Murder 2.

  34. gldgirl63 says:

    i still think they should change the laws….that when a crime is commited…involving a death of another….the defendant should not be able to trash the victim in any way… every time i looked at g.z. sitting they looking smug….like he didn’t do anything wrong…it’s not his fault….pompus a**…. if he gets convicted i would luv to be a fly on the wall to watch him enter the prison system…..

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      And when those real men get through with him…behind bars. They are going to have a field day. He such a fool. His father looks like the Grand Wizard of the KKK… His mom is a liar also… This is what happens when you do not train a child in the proper way.

      Spare the rod and spoil the child.. GZ is so full of it…

      • gldgirl63 says:

        can’t stand the way he sits there and looks as if he has done nothing wrong…like he was justified….in what he did…..god help him if he goes to jail…. i for one will not be sorry…..not one ounce of remorse….smh

        • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

          These people are sick, arrogant and have no shame. The are so snobbish. I notice how everyone was talking like “The Martin” family needs to remain calm in court. They were the only ones with class and the prosecution. The other side was all trailer park trash, thieves and liars.

      • Vickis Smith says:


        From what I’ve read, he was reared mainly by the grandmother who is both strict and cold, with his mother being no warmer; the father was too busy to be much involved.

    • Rachael says:

      And his lawyer shouldn’t be allowed to start an internet smear campaign – and then profit it off of it as well.

    • Dee says:

      This man been getting away with stuff since he raped his cousin. She said he raped her for several years.

      ”The Florida State Attorney’s Office today released audio of a police interview with a woman identified as Witness #9 who accuses George Zimmerman of molesting her when she was a child. The defense later identified her as his cousin.”


      • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

        I thought this was release last year…I heard about her I believe she is on video also…

        That entire family is corrupt and need to go into therapy after GZ and Shellie is locked up.. Look at the company they keep Frank Taaffe, Joe Oliver, etc. They lie about everything… They all have a depraved mind.

      • Vickis Smith says:

        Dee, we need to be careful we don’t spread incorrect info like the other side does. She never claimed he raped her. He started touching her when they were small children- he was a couple of years older. What I found especially disturbing. however, is what he did when he was only about 8 years old; yes, children do, indeed, “play doctor” but he penetrated her with his finger, and that is way beyond what a normal 8-year-old would do; makes you wonder who might have done what to him earlier on.

        • Fogen Sr. gives me the creeps…I’ve never seen such ugliness. Who knows what he’s capable of….

          Hm. OK, so if Fogen Sr. has racial animosity….and he married a woman who, in his culture, is a racial minority…then he may have been more of a dictator than a father to his brown skinned kids.

          Racism is a disease, that family is up to their eyeballs in it.

    • cielo62 says:

      gldgirl~ I was thinking the same thing re: being a fly on the wall. I bet he’ll be like the fat guy in the Shawshank Redemption on the 1st night. Crying and swearing “I’m not supposed to BE here!”

    • KA says:

      Even Jodi Arias cried in her trial. GZ was just either smirking, smiling, annoyed, or blank.

      The smiling after the Sean Hannity show and other things had to have made an impact.

      I suspect the lack of respect to the person he killed or appropriate emotions when details of the evening were played (like a PTSD sign) will weigh on the jurors mind.

      • vickie s. votaw says:

        I think if the jury saw the way papaZ was making all those nasty, mocking faces when Bernie was giving his closing arguments, that that would give them good insight into CAC’s mindset

      • MedicineBear says:

        I think the lack of remorse will make the jury even less conflicted about holding him responsible for the evidence-supported charge of M2.

      • gldgirl63 says:

        even if he showed some type of emotion i think it would at least show he did not mean to do that…..i am at my computer watchinging live stream….and the camera pans to him…. he sits there staring stright ahead…makes me just want to go through the computer slap him…then tell him a life is gone because you took it….. no matter what the verdict….no one would be there if it weren’t for him….. and that is a fact….. just based on that and all the lies he told m2

      • gldgirl63 says:

        j.a..she looked genuinely shocked….in her case i don’t know what she was thinking…..her actions alone show nothing less that life w/o parole….

  35. The State of Florida v. Paul Blart Mall Cop (Bill Maher)

  36. MrSykes says:

    Just heard from the woman who was sitting behind Sybrina on HLN describe the reaction of some on the jury after Guy’s rebuttal. At least three were seen wiping away tears and one was red-faced and visibly shaken. Take that for what you will.

  37. tharealkeisha says:

    I heard John Guy would be the prosecutor against Shellie. Is this true?

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      Shellie needs to follow behind her criminal husband.

      • Xena says:

        Yes — ASA Guy is assigned to ShelLIE’s case. He was present in court when ShelLIE’s lawyer tried getting the case dismissed on the basis that Corey lacked jurisdiction to charge her. The judge disagreed and ShelLIE’s case is continued until after GZ’s case is over.

        • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

          John Guy is going to tear her to pieces if she takes the stand..

        • Rachael says:

          Is hers a bench trial? Is it going to be televised?

        • vickie s. votaw says:

          Right on! & JN is presiding over the NBC suing. This is the first time I have been able to see a state work for justice in a trial. I learned so much from watching with the professor’s guidance. It is good to know there are people like Guy, Bernie, & Mantii(? Spell) within the system fighting the corruption that the likes of the Zclan bring to it.

          • Xena says:

            @vickie s. votaw.

            It is good to know there are people like Guy, Bernie, & Mantii(? Spell) within the system fighting the corruption that the likes of the Zclan bring to it.

            IMO, they’re not done with them yet. When they are done, the feds are waiting.

  38. Malisha says:

    I remember when I first heard the FIRST of the three Serino interviews. Every line was an eye-opener. I think if this jury listens to the interviews a few times, with people chiming in: “Wait, did you hear THAT? He said …” they will convict.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I agree with you 100%, Malisha.

      And, I had the same experience as you did a year ago.

    • vickie s. votaw says:

      When Bernie used that interview in his closing, I thought it was the perfect example to use, it showed Serino didn’t believe him, no matter what MOM tried to imply .

  39. Rachael says:

    As far as #4 goes, it could not. Trayvon is not on trial so no, that would not fly.

    I pretty much agree. I wish I could have seen the jurors though. I heard that they were pretty attentive to the entire closing, defense and prosecution.

  40. KA says:

    Completely and utterly off topic and I mean no disrespect…but I know we have talked death penalty before…this seems an urgent case.


    • gldgirl63 says:

      i went to your link…and read the article….while i don’t like the dp..it is just some things ppl do that absolutely deserves the dp…..i was unaware he killed his gf then his cell mate…..doesn’t state how bad the handicap is….i wish him the best…..

      • KA says:

        He has mental retardation. GA seems to have a law basically making it impossible to say someone has MR.

        I have a son with an IQ of 68 (with some other accompanying problems). I can tell you that logical reasoning and impulse control is impaired. He is also a child who suffered childhood trauma. He tried to kill one of the dogs a few years ago with a shovel because he wanted to play with the other dog (then a puppy) without the other dog joining in. He felt no hate towards the family dog, he just could not logically distinguish why it was so dangerous and wrong.

        We went through intense nuerofeedback therapy and he has improved his ability to reason somewhat and is definitely as impulsive,now, but have intense understanding of the combination of MR and childhood abuse and neglect can do to the ability of an individual to logically process.

      • aussie says:

        I’d like to see the trial notes for both those killings though. Or in fact were there trial, or was he talked into pleading guilty?

  41. Jun says:

    This is my opinion of what I have seen thus far for closing

    1) I think Bernie did the best of the 2 closing. I thought Mantai would do it along with Guy but was incorrect. Guy’s heart is in the right place and has a genuine feel for humanity in it, but I was expecting him to spell out the whole story of what happened and a timeline with locations, after dispelling the defendant as a liar.

    2) Omara’s closing was really boring. He did not make any points except that he wanted to make the standard for burden at a rather large level to the jury for the state. Then he went on about he did not follow or track the kid down, something about a T, and the cartoon was made up, a cartoon with random teleportations. He kept pressing the concrete weapon issue.

    3) Guy could have nailed the concrete lies part a bit better IMO.

    4) The jury instructions should have included a right for the kid to defend himself. There should also be instructions for meeting force with force that is equal and they should have included the whole SYG statute.

    5) I dont feel the jury buys the following not following Omara story because it sounds too contradictory in one sentence.

    • concernedczen says:

      The jury instructions should have included the law on the aggressor not being able to claim SYG unless certain criteria are met.

      • cielo62 says:

        SYG is decided by a judge only. gz and MOM waived their right for a SYG hearing. This was straightforward self defense, which STILL forbids the aggressor the right to kill

    • Rachael says:

      They can’t. Aside from the fact that the victim is dead, even if he weren’t, he isn’t the one who is on trial. I know it doesn’t seem like it, but he isn’t/wasn’t. They do not have to find Trayvon guilty or not guilty so no jury instructions apply to him.

      They have to go by the law and it is GZ who is on trial, not Trayvon.

      I mean in effect, the whole trial itself is a claim of self-defense for the victim in that GZ did not have the right to take his life. That is why he is being charged with murder 2.

    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      No blood on the concrete.

  42. disappointed says:

    If Fogen could not fight how did he plan on catching fugitives? Shooting all of them? How could he be a police officer? It is a physical job. Not everyone goes down without a fight.

    My husband I were talking about him at dinner tonight and when I said something about him wanting to be a police officer he asked how. I never thought about it before he asked so now I would like your thoughts.

    • Sabrina B. says:

      Fogen didn’t think he couldn’t fight. And I bet his trainer didn’t think so either. He seems like just another that would say anything for fogen. What fogen didn’t do, was factor fear into the response of Trayvon and that is where he was caught off guard. He thought he could take Trayvon with little effort and bit off more than he could chew. At least until he decided to settle it with his gun.

      • ^This. And I believe his decision making skills (or lack thereof) is why Virginia did not accept his application to be a police officer. Whatever psych matrix they use for entry exams probably showed he would not have been suitable.

        • Rachael says:

          whether it is or not, I bet they are REALLY breathing a sigh of relief now that he isn’t there.

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:

          Yes, why else did the defense want all of gz’s medical records unavailable to the prosecution.

        • MollyK says:

          It’s certainly possible that he failed the psych/personality screening, but another possibility is lack of education/poor performance. Even in our small northeast village (suburb of NYC), the police dept requires a college degree or military service. GZ didn’t even have an associate’s degree, and I read somewhere that his HS class rank was 2 or 3 from the bottom of a very large class.

          • racerrodig says:

            315 out of 317 in his HS class.

            A stellar performance and he failed the psyche part of a police entrance exam in FL, besides refusal in VA.

            The ultimate loser.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          What came out in court with the application was not a psych problem – he was rejected for bad credit.

          • MedicineBear says:

            What came out in the PA medical report, though, was that he was under the care of a psychologist before the murder!

            This is a big ol’ RED FLAG question mark for the jury. It probably would have been better to explain his pyche history and psyche drugs to the jury — now the jury has to conclude that that info was damaging to the defendant because it was withheld.

    • Rachael says:

      Just more lies. For some people you can pay them to say anything. For others, just testifying in the the limelight of a high-profile case is payment enough. I think people know it was staged – and I believe that has some to do with the weight gain too – make it look like you are as inept as possible. People have been know to do anything to beat a murder rap – even physically harm themselves (or have someone so it) so they look injured.

      • gldgirl63 says:

        i thought that too…..the facial pic…looks to be photoshoped….at best…i have wondered about the back of the head injuries….i noticed the straight line in the back to the left… way too straight i think there is something fishy there…..

    • Dee says:

      Zimmerman knew how to fight and wrestle. He sure didn’t have any problem raping his cousin, and hitting his woman. Like they say he is not a fighter, he is a KILLER.

  43. Sabrina B. says:

    I think, to the jury, the defense with all of its flash and glitter, arguing from contradictory points at the same time, came of as, as big of liars as their client. Prosecution came off as much more honest and credible. It seemed to me they were throwing everything out there to address everything that they might focus on and that just does not seem effective when you are arguing that you are the one telling the truth.

    He wasn’t chasing him, it was the wind. But, even if he was he stopped when the NEN operator said so.

    He went to get an address because he didn’t think to look where there were actually addresses but, even if he did he couldn’t see them because there were no lights on.

    He had sufficient wounds to be scared for his life but, even if he didn’t, he didn’t need to.

    He wasn’t menacing the guy by following him on car and foot but, even if he was, it is not illegal.

    He essentially told the same story with minor inconsistencies but, even if he didn’t it was because his head was bashed in.

    Well, which is it? Was he telling the truth or wasn’t he?

    • aussie says:

      Defense never explained how they got to be 40 ft south of the T, the last location GZ claimed to be in for a legitimate reason (heading back to his truck from getting the address).

      There is heaps of evidence that he followed, by car and on foot. And continued to follow to the shooting location.

      Whatever happened there, none of it could have caused the killer to have < reasonable fear for his life, as he had no serious injuries, and the victim had zero blood or DNA on him to indicate he’d caused even those.

      That’s the whole case in a nutshell.

  44. Dee says:

    Why does CNN and HLN think that Zimmerman will have an acquittal, when they have another charge of manslaughter that he can get. Which I think that he will get. I hope this case was not rigged, Because any time Z father is sleeping in court, something is up. Who sleeps when their son could be looking as 30 after the gun charges are added on.

    • roderick2012 says:

      Dee: Why does CNN and HLN think that Zimmerman will have an acquittal,

      I have noticed that CNN has been attempting to become Faux lite for several years but since Jeff Zucker took over at CNN they have gone all the way attempting to become Wingnut Central.

      • vickie s. votaw says:

        I can’t watch them anymore, they are annoying. I used to be a news junkie, but there are few places to get accurate news anymore

    • Jun says:

      Okay, I am gonna go against popular opinion on CNN, HLN and the large number of trolls voting on their polls and say Fogen will be found guilty of second degree murder

    • Rachael says:

      Maybe he was sleeping in court because he couldn’t sleep last night. That one I don’t have a problem understanding, really But as far as CNN and HLN thinking Z will be acquitted, IDN. Seems a lot of people still think the defense has all this “proof” and the prosecution has nothing, but I really don’t see how they come to that. Seems pretty solid to me that he acted out of spite and shot and killed Trayvon totally unnecessarily. So IDK, I just don’t know.

      • Vickis Smith says:

        Rachael, with Faux News, you see actual support for GZ; with CNN and the sister station HLN what I have seen is that they have some on who believe that the State’s case is weak, I have seen some say that the case should never have been brought, yet not come out and say that they’re supportive of GZ. There is a lot of support for the prosecution on HLN.

        Look at HLN and the bringing on of Taaffe daily: they have to know that he has an obnoxious personality.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Even if Fogen didn’t act out of anger or hatred, he left his vehicle, followed, and basically created more than 50% of the situation.

    • MedicineBear says:

      They may have given papaZ some of fogen’s Doggy Downers on the second day because RZ’s over-the-top facial expressions were not good for the duhfense the previous day.

      Ha! This career “professional” magistrate doesn’t know how to behave in court! Rachel could have taught him a thing or two about how to conduct oneself in court! Rachel should probably give West some schooling on proper courtroom decorum as well!

      • Malisha says:

        MB, when FogenFather was in court in Virginia being a magistrate, he did not have to learn how to behave in a court of law because HE had all the power. When he is in total control (as only a judge or magistrate can be, in VA, where they can order ANYTHING and have it done immediately whether it is provided for by law or not), Fogenfather feels FINE. Only when he cannot control the proceedings (and THIS is what made him so mad he wrote that stupid stupid STUPID book) is he seen accting like an angry undisciplined three-year-old.

        A disgusting sort of person. The courts of Virginia are peopled with them.

        I have seen a judge in Virginia indict a person himself on a crime that did not exist, make an order jailing him without bond (on a non-jailable offense, which itself is unconstitutional even for an hour), and then hold a mixed civil and criminal trial with only a civil docket number in chancery. THEN he makes one order that is used as both a civil and criminal ORDER although it follows the required form of NEITHER and he has no jurisdiction to do either one. That made it through the appeals courts becauxse the appeals courts kept saying the defendant did not file two (2) appeals: only filed one (1) appeal but the order needed to be appealed both civilly (by appeal) and criminally (by writ of error) so the judge won and the defendant lost. THIS IS THE COURT SYSTEM where Fogenfather learned what he learned about the law.

        He is a product of our times. Of our illegal, unlawful, unconstitutional, racist, lying, dishonest, fake and fraudulent times. And his son carried around a loaded gun and killed an unarmed kid to ENFORCE that kind of thing on ALL OF US. AND if this jury frees his son after what has happened, this kind of thing WILL be enforced on all of us.

  45. Jun says:

    You know what I dont get?

    Why the state play Fogen’s statements?

    I was expecting them to force Fogen to the stand and explain himself and object repeatedly on hearsay statements by Omara and West

    • Sabrina B. says:

      Because he could have not taken the stand and left them hanging in the air with nothing. Which he likely would have done. I think it was more effective to play his lies and dare him to try to explain them.

      • RobertSF says:

        No, he couldn’t have left them hanging. They would have summarily proven murder and that would have been that.

        • Sabrina B. says:

          Are you saying he would have had to take the stand if they didn’t play his tapes? Because it is my understanding that whether they played them or not, he could have refused to take the stand.

          • Rachael says:

            He would never have to take the stand. I think they were talking figuratively – as in unless he took the stand to explain it- rather than literally because literally he does not have to take the stand period.

          • Vickis Smith says:

            @Sabrina- No- he would have felt he had to take the stand. In this case you can bet his OCD would have been all over the place.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @sabrina — you are correct. no one can ever be forced to testify against themselves. the judge had allowed some of gz’s ‘excited utterances’ regarding self defense into testimony, so that would have been on the record and perhaps sufficient enough to include the self defense language. the prosecution’s move was unusual, but it does not distress me.

    • Why don’t you get that?

      That’s how the presented his web of lies…it was pure gold.


      • MedicineBear says:

        Yes! The core of the State’s case to the Jury is: Look at the DIRECT EVIDENCE of GZ’s own recorded words in the interviews and you will find his own words exposing GZ’s depraved mind, disregard for another’s life, ill-will, and guilt. WHY would GZ have to lie, embellish, materially change his statements, or mis-characterize TM if GZ thought he was innocent of criminally profiling, aggressively pursuing, and unnecessarily killing the Victim?

    • Xena says:

      @Jun. Playing GZ’s interviews and videos, and including his written statement, gives the jury opportunity to see/hear/read GZ’s numerous inconsistencies.

      What Bernie did in his closing was effectively cross-examine GZ.

      • Jun says:

        It was good but I also feel the jury instructions should also put a self defense claim for the victim that if the jury finds that the victim was justified, etc.

        • Rachael says:

          They can’t. Aside from the fact that the victim is dead, even if he weren’t, he isn’t the one who is on trial. I know it doesn’t seem like it, but he isn’t/wasn’t. They do not have to find Trayvon guilty or not guilty so no jury instructions apply to him.

          They have to go by the law and it is GZ who is on trial, not Trayvon.

          • Rachael says:

            I mean in effect, the whole trial itself is a claim of self-defense for the victim.

          • Rachael says:

            In that GZ did not have the right to take his life. That is why he is being charged with murder 2.

  46. YQ says:

    @myforeheadtho-I agree with you on your last post cause Fogen was also quite verbal on the NEN call. In oversight, the defense has tried to make him seem like a soft, soft spoken type of guy. The parts that he had “remembered” Trayvon threatening him were quite consistent, especially in his initial statements. He seemed to remember everything Trayvon did, but blacked out on the points of his actions. I think that he figured that someone may have heard him say those things and pinned them on Trayvon. Same with the screams. Somebody was screaming and it could not have been Trayvon because that fact would have skirted his self defense claim. He also didn’t realize that one of the witnesses saw him when he was bleeding out Trayvon, that’s why he cooked up the “restraining” part. He holstered the gun back quickly because he knew he hit the target. And when you think abiut it, he is one sick SOB.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I am so glad that the jury has the reenactment video of gz to contrast against the chameleon defendant that they saw sitting in court.

      Two different looks…..two different behaviors.

  47. breelee says:

    Question since I don’t tweet. When the jury came back in to say they wanted to stop for the night, has anyone tweeted if they looked at fogen? I’ve heard if they avoid looking at the defendant, that’s a good sign to convict. I’m surprised there’s no mention of how they acted on any of the news shows.

    You’re very welcome Thoughtful Comments, I only wish I could remember who 1st posted it.

    • My Forehead Tho says:

      Only thing I’ve found so far:

    • My Forehead Tho says:

      Well my “comment is awaiting moderation”, so i’ll just copy what Rene Stutzman tweeted. I haven’t seen anybody else tweet about the jurors reactions:

      “Jurors faces are impossible to read. No signs of anger, emotion, conflict.
      #Trayvon, #Zimmerman.

      • Sabrina B. says:

        Still worried about B29 though Someone on MSNBC said that she had a strong reaction, wiped a tear, when Guy said “your verdict will not bring Trayvon back or change the past but it will define it.” I wonder if that was because she knew she was going to go back there and vote for acquittal?

        • My Forehead Tho says:

          I hope not. If she went back there with her mind set on acquittal, I hope those other mothers drill it in her head that any of her 8 kids could have been Trayvon and she walks out tomorrow convinced of murder.

        • racerrodig says:

          Unlikely. If that were the case, she’d be stone faced.

      • breelee says:

        Thanks Forehead, disappointing they didn’t avoid him. I assumed they would just look at JN, but hoped for a sign.

  48. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    You know this song keeps running through my head, and so I will post it here:

    There’s a place for us
    Somewhere a place for us
    Peace and quiet and open air
    Wait for us

    There’s a time for us
    Some day a time for us
    Time together
    With time to spare
    Time to learn
    Time to care

    We’ll find a new way of living

    We’ll find a way of forgiving

    There’s a place for us
    A time and place for us
    Hold my hand
    And we’re halfway there
    Hold my hand
    And I’ll take you there

  49. Leisa says:

    Damn havng to be on the hospital and so ill I was unable to watch the closing. Thanks to all for the comments that help me get a feel for what happened. I think we will hear something tomorrow and a great big bear hug to BDLR, Mr. Guy and Mr. Mantei. Love and appreciate the job they did speaking for Trayvon.

  50. aussie says:

    An early summary of the jurors.

    Wish we had a list of tweets made about them during the trial. But I have no idea how to do anything on Twitter.

  51. breelee says:

    There’s been many wonderful songs posted today, but I think this one is the star. What I wouldn’t give for the jury to see and hear it. (sorry cant remember who 1st shared this)

  52. Sophia33 says:

    I can’t believe that HLN have Shahrazad Ali on. Talk about a blast from the past. She still looks the same, though. SMH

  53. My Forehead Tho says:

    Has anybody noticed Fogen’s of pattern of blaming Trayvon for things he himself may have done or said:

    1. He originally stalked and hunted down Trayvon, yet claims Trayvon stalked and hunted him down.

    2. He originally claimed that Trayvon was mad about being followed, yet he was mad about Trayvon getting away.

    3. He claimed Trayvon had knowledge of MMA, yet he’s the one who trained at an MMA gym.

    This leads me to believe that he may have actually said the things he said Trayvon said- “You’re gonna die tonight motherfucker” being one of those.

    • Judy75201 says:

      Oh hell yeah! I’ve thought that from the outset. That’s why he fumbled a few times in his interviews, saying “I” instead of “he”.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Great post, MyForehead!

    • Sabrina B. says:

      Yes. I believe everything that he did he said Trayvon did. That is why it was not hard for him to come up with an initial story. The problem was in remembering whether it was he or Trayvon actually did it each time he repeated it.

    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      I’ve always believed that from day one when this case first came to my attention.

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      Oh Ya, I’ve been saying that all along. I suspect Trayvon did say, “You shot me.” as he died bleeding on the inside. Not “You got me.” as Zimmerman claims.

      GZ it is called neighborhood watch not neighborhood shoot. And for his Daddy to arrogant buy coca colas for the entire family like they are on a baseball field is such disrespect. These are some arrogant people. And they look like trailer park trash to me.

      Martin family hang in there the “Justice Train” is coming…. “Guilty”

    • cielo62 says:

      My Forehead~ yes, that was discussed a few months back. Can’t remember WHO said it, but it became a little ditty: “What gz did, he blamed on the kid.” I hope the jury gets it as well.

    • I totally agree. Someone posted a few days ago (sorry, I can’t remember who) about Fogen having a “mirror effect” of things he said or did that that he attributed to Trayvon, i.e., Fogen’s last words to NEN was “You got it,” but he attributed that to Trayvon.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      @my forehead tho

      yes, this concept has been in our face for the last 16+ months. i will now quote willisnewton

      “what george did, he blamed on the kid”

      there are many more exampled, if you look for them.

  54. Jun says:

    Wow the jury instructions are little unfair to the victim

    it does not go into the victim’s right to self defense

  55. breelee says:

    The Trayvon Martin Foundation

    Day 24 – As I sit in the courtroom I’m realizing that God is using me to stand up for my son, your son and all teenagers black, brown and those that wear hoodies. The bottom line is you all have rights too. If you don’t stand up for something positive you will fall for anything. No weapon formed against us will prosper. In the name of Jesus. XOXOXO

    We’re with you, Tracy and everyone who loves your Trayvon.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Thanks for posting to us these words of Sybrina.

      I would love LLMPapa to somehow make a video to pass on her message.

  56. Jeanette says:

    Reading through today’s comments here, I knew Guy’s closing was exceptional; however, I couldn’t appreciate the full impact until I watched the video.

    What an amazing close that was. One of the best I’ve ever seen and I feel lifted that Trayvon and the Martin and Fulton families have such a capable, passionate advocate in their corner seeking justice.

  57. breelee says:

    I feel like a rabbit in a trap, a nervous wreck. I keep thinking how the state didn’t want two of these jurors. I am so glad they didn’t come back with a verdict today. I want them to go over everything, over and over. I fear the defense played the screams so many times, they wont play them and really listen. I want them to hear Jeremy say “he told me he’s shoot him/them”. Imo, that would seal fogens fate.

    Flipping through the tv, I was cursed and saw Taffee. I wish someone would ask him ” IF you had any sons left, would you want a armed stranger to follow him in the dark?”.

    Please let these jurors realize that if they don’t convict this child killer, they’re telling every evil person out there its ok to stalk children.

    • aussie says:

      One of the jurors has already given her WHITE children The Talk. E6.

      Even if some of the jurors are unthinkingly racist — all racists have a few token black friends or acquaintances who they exempt from their prejudices. On the evidence, they would have to include Trayvon in that exempted group.

      Prosecution NOT ONCE mentioned he’s black. Just called him young, a teenager, a youth… it was O”Mara who rubbed it in the jury’s faces and minds that GZ profiled Trayvon for being like the black criminals who’d been doing the burglaries (supposedly).

  58. Jun says:

    the closing by Guy was way different from what i expected

    I thought he would close with a timeline of the events

  59. willisnewton says:

    The good news for GZ is that either way the ankle bracelet comes off soon

  60. Just musing here on one of the many different subtleties in the case. Although I’m usually pro-defense, I have to say that overall, the prosecution’s strategy in trying Fogen was nothing short of brilliant when they didn’t have the norm of a solid police investigation upfront (no tox on Fogen, no truck impound, etc.) and when law enforcement either testified in court in favor of Fogen or didn’t harm him at all (i.e. Singleton). Police are the investigatory arms of the prosecution, but BDLR, Guy, and Mantei had to rely on less than stellar investigatory practices and results to try this case and they did an outstanding job.

    The ice cream team had resources, LEO testimony, experts, and consultants to litigate against the prosecution from a position of strength and by all accounts should win this case. Their major liability that will cause them to lose is Fogen himself and his attempts to try to ‘game’ the system.

    I cringed every time I turned on the live stream to watch the trial and would see him seated at the defense table like an altar boy, when reports show that he’s fully capable of instantly raging on women, children, and dogs without a moments notice. Once Trayvon was under Fogen’s radar, my thought is that Trayvon didn’t stand a chance against this hooligan.

    • Judy75201 says:

      “Once Trayvon was under Fogen’s radar, my thought is that Trayvon didn’t stand a chance against this hooligan.”

      So true, Medusausi. So horribly true.

    • type1juve says:

      You’re so right about Fogen. He was determined to confront Trayvon and I do believe that had it not been Trayvon he would have eventually murdered some other innocent young black male. He was enabled and that only served to escalate his delusions.

      • Judy75201 says:

        He was enabled, and it was inevitable that fogen would confront and murder someone. He was ENABLED.

        • towerflower says:

          I agree, he already had a history of chasing. From a shoplifter who wouldn’t get away from him to a “careless driver” that he followed until the cops showed up. The “careless” driver thought he had a nut case following him.

          He wants to be the hero, the admired go-to guy. He also wants the control of being a cop, looked up to, respected, orders followed. Sadly if it didn’t happen that night, I think it would’ve happened on another day to someone else. The more he called 911 and carried that gun, the more empowered he became in his mind.

    • fauxmccoy says:


      agree whole heartedly with your comment with one exception

      the state virtually has no limit as to resources they can put into prosecuting their case. there was nothing to keep them from getting the same jury consultant or the same gun shot expert the defense hired. for whatever reason, they chose not to do so. considering the obvious weakness of ME Bao, it might have been money well spent to just call bao to submit the autopsy report and get a high profile forensic pathologist to provide opinion and testimony.

      • Wow, I didn’t realize that in the case of a special prosecutor they had access to their unlimited resources. imo a better ballistics expert would have sealed testimony on recoil, bullet trajectory, etc.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          ‘unlimited’ may be a slight oversight. i am sure each state’s attorney office does have a budget to work within. there resources though are those of the state, they have the ability to spend what they need to secure a conviction.

  61. Judy75201 says:

    I believe, have always believed, that it was the very moment he said “these assholes always get away” that he decided to hunt down and murder Trayvon. I can hear it in his voice and tone. He decided. And that’s why he changed his mind about where he would be and rather wanted to cops to call him when they arrived so he could tell him where he was.

    • Judy75201 says:

      This was supposed to be in reply to Puck’s post immediately above.

      • Puck says:

        He was hunting, sure. I think he went down RVC and then heard Trayvon on the phone near Brandy’s house, then went in the gap between houses. I don’t know if he intended to kill Trayvon when he got out of his truck, but I do think that was among the options he felt were available. I think at the very least he was prepared to brandish the gun, and I think he had it out either before or soon into the “confrontation.”

        • Judy75201 says:

          I agree. I don’t know if the intent to kill had fully formed at that moment or not, but the intent to stalk and apprehend definitely was. I also believe his gun was in his hand for that purpose.

        • It was all a set up…he was sowing the seeds for SYG with his calls. It’s so obvious. He knew exactly was doing. This wasn’t about catching a burglar…the burglar had already been caught, and guess what? He was a resident.

          Trayvon was not acting suspiciously. Trayvon was not coming after Fogen. He was not on drugs. Yet Fogen said all those things….to plants the seeds for what he was about to do.

          He’s like a spoiled brat who pulled crap over his parents eyes all the time. Remember the cousin he molested? Didn’t she say he sometimes molested her under a blanked while everyone watched TV together?

          Was he living rent free? How did he manage to pull that off? See…he’s crafty. No rent meant he could afford MMA training nine hours a week. Fogen had the life….but not because he deserved it.

          I truly believe that Fogen wanted to kill somebody. He had a gun and he wanted to use it. He trained and practiced….he was into guns. Who uses hollow point bullets? Thugs, that’s who. Not respectable citizens.

          Fogen wanted to shoot someone to death…just like in all those video games people love so much these days. He practiced shooting…but he didn’t want to just “practice” anymore.

          He wanted to be special…a hero…he had to cheat because he is neither special nor heroic. He wanted to impress his LE buddies…the ones that threw him a graduation party…except that he didn’t really graduate.

          So he had to compensate.

          That’s what the gun was for…to compensate for what he lacked: manhood.

    • racerrodig says:

      When he said “…oh shit….he’s running…” I can picture every one of those cop reality shows, the ones with a camera crew aboard, when the cop says….. “….shit, he’s running…” or “..he’s rabbiting…” and on go the lights and the chase is on.

      Very clearly I can see it. Without a doubt, he had his gun out well before he cut Trayvon off.

  62. Puck says:

    I wrote about this a good while back, having to do with GZ’s “becoming” a cop in his mind during the NEN call. We know that later that night he referred to Trayvon as the “suspect” and used other LE terms such as “firearm” and “maintain visual.” But in the NEN call, we know that when he unnecessarily and in a cop-like tone says, “And he’s a black male” that at that point he’s in full-on delusional cop mode. Listen to it if you want: he goes from the innocent-sounding “Hey, there’s been a lot of break-ins…” to speaking to Sean Knoffke as if he were on his police radio and Sean was his dispatcher. It’s something I picked up on after hearing the NEN call a couple of times, and it’s always stuck with me as reflecting not only where he was but WHO he was in his mind in those minutes. GZ has so many tells, and I’m hoping the jury has or will pick up on them.

    MSNBC is doing a live special on the trial at 9 p.m. One of the hosts is legal analyst Lisa Bloom, who flip-flops more often than Romney ever did.

  63. Woow! says:


    Are you planning to blog for the Michael Dunn/Jordan Davis murder trial?

    • Jeanette says:

      Hope I’m not out of line here, but if there are interested voices calling for it, I would like to add my voice in support. Although some of the circumstances prior to arrest and charges in the Dunn case may be different, I think many of the same issues that will be presented in context of the trial will be similar to this case.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      @woow — i sure hope so and not just because john guy is prosecuting, either.

  64. diary73 says:

    Oh poor Sybrina! Poor Tracy! I can’t stop shaking!

  65. diary73 says:

    Sobbing tears. This is the same one that those racist sites had. How could MSNBC air such a thing??????? There is no excuse!

  66. diary73 says:

    The of him at the scene.

  67. diary73 says:

    I am a total mess right now! Seeing that picture all over Facebook. My God!

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      *tears and hugs*

    • Sophia33 says:

      Oh dear!


      I had a sleepless night from some photos that have already been released. I don’t think I can take anymore.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        My heart is aching for Sybrina and Tracy for the way this is desecrating so publicly the death and memory of Trayvon.

        How cheap and low and cold is that??

  68. diary73 says:

    MSNBC just messed up royally! How the heck do you accidentally release a photo of a dead teen??????

  69. Girlp says:

    Good close by BLDR and GUY. When the NEN call was released the first thing I thought is this guy is trying to sound like a cop he even uses cop lingo, then I read his written statement and again thought this guy is playing cops and robbers with a real gun. The most telling to me is that in that NEN call George does most defiantly profile Trayvon as a criminal even as he states that all the kid was doing was looking around then continues later to call him a suspect but what was he doing that was suspect whatever it was he did not tell NEN. Let’s face it the cop wannabe showed ill will towards Trayvon someone he did not know and did not see doing anything he called the child a “FUCKING COON “not a punk and I put it in quotes because that’s what George called Trayvon a “fucking coon”. When Trayvon in my mind tried to figure out who was following him and looked George in the face he ran that leads me to think something about the way George looked at him frightened him so bad he ran until he thought he had lost him. What did George do? Take off after him again in using his TV/Movie script cop language again “SHIT he ran”. George decided to have the police call him and he would tell him where he was rather than meet at the mailboxes so he could continue after Trayvon without being monitored by NEN, he chased the child down tried to detain him; Rachel heard Trayvon say “get off” when Trayvon tried to get away George pulled Trayvon back towards him and shot him according to George while he had the child under control. The child was screaming he was terrified how awful this must be. Looking at the reenfakement the only time George told the truth was when he said “I AIMED and SHOT”. I hope the jury can see that this is M2 if not manslaughter; as Guy asked the jury how did Trayvon see the gun and how did George get the gun. I’m praying that the jury brings a guilty verdict because George Zimmerman did commit murder. This case breaks my heart a child terrorized and killed by a crazed vigilante…JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON no one helped the child no one.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Great post, Girlp!

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I am transcribing Mr. Guy’s closing. Here is his introduction:

      The human heart. It has a great many functions. But, is not the most important purpose what it causes us to do?

      It moves us. It motivates us. It inspires us. It leads us, and it guides us. In big things ….like it guides us in what to do for a living. In little things like what we chose to do at any moment in the day.

      So, if we really want to know what happened out there behind those homes on that dark, rainy night, should we not look into the heart of the grown man and the heart of that child?

      What will that tell us about what really happened out there.

      (Clicking an exhibit and saying) That’s what was in George Zimmerman’s heart and the defense attorney can make fun of the way I say it, but it is not my voice that matters: it’s yours, and we are about to hear from you.

      What does that say to you? Was he just casually referring to a perfect stranger by saying f-ing punks? That doesn’t evidence to you anything? That’s normal language? Or is that not?

      What was in that defendant’s heart when he approached Trayvon Martin? What does that tell you?

      It is funny, he put on a timeline that was 10 feet long and the only thing he skipped was those two words at the bottom of the screen…was the only thing. Think there was a reason for that? A reason he did want you to think about that again? How powerful that is? What the defendant was really feeling just moments before he pulled the trigger? Think that was a coincidence?

      What was in Trayvon Martin’s heart? Was it not fear that Miss Jeantel told you about? The witness who did not want to be here. The witness who did not want to be involved. But, the witness……the human being that was on the phone with the real victim in this case….. **(screen is showing “What are you following me for?”)**
      Trayvon Martin…… right up until the time of his death.

      Was that child not in fear when he was running from that defendant? Isn’t that every child’s worst nightmare…..to be followed on the way home in the dark by a stranger? Isn’t that every child’s worst fear? That was Trayvon Martin’s last emotion.

      There’s an old saying….great one though: “As a man speaks, so is he.”

      The words on the screen **(camera doesn’t show first + “What are you following me for”) were the last thing these people said before Trayvon Martin was murdered.

      Before this defendant had a motivation to lie to justify his actions. What were his words…..what was in his heart?

      If ever, if ever there was window into a man’s soul, it was the words from that defendant’s mouth on that phone call. And if ever there was a question about who initiated the contact between that grown man and that child, it was again, those defendant’s words. When he told Sean Naukee(sp), “Just have the officer call me on my cellphone, and I will tell him where I am.” George Zimmerman was not going back to the car or the clubhouse or the mailboxes.

      And, if there was any doubt about what happened, really happened, was it not completely removed by what the defendant said afterwards? All of the lies he told, all of them.

      What does that tell you? There’s only two people on this Earth who know what really happened, and one of them can’t testify. And, the other one lied.

    • Mary Davis says:

      @ Girlp. Yes it is really sad how Trayvon died at the hands of fogen, and no one, and I mean no one tried to help him in any way. No one even asked if he was ok or still living. No one said for the ambulance to hurry up because this child needs help. It breaks my heart. What kind of people are these. These people tried to demonize and make Trayvon into a thug.

      It makes me feel much better after Guy humanized Trayvon. He did this for the whole world to see. I wonder how the stinkhouse feel now. Trayvon was no thug. He was just an ordinary teen, with a bright further ahead of him. The way this whole case has gone should tell us all just who the danger in the united states is and we as AA’s should always be on the alert.

      And please, please, never stop giving your children and grand children “the talk”.

      • towerflower says:

        I went to the treehouse today, just to see what the other side said about the closing. Denial is the only word I can come up with. They spent the entire time just making fun of Guy, from his voice to his looks. They cried foul over calling TM a child and mocked it by suggesting a drinking game for every time he used the word. They cried foul over saying he was 16 yrs and 21 days old. But they never commented on any real part of his statements, no comment was ever made of the one juror who was seen wiping a tear.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        @mary davis

        as i see it, selma mora did try to intervene and had more balls than anyone around. she thought she was hearing a young person calling for help and an argument. she went running out to do something about it and not even realizing that it was a gun shot she had heard. she tried to stop it, but was too late. i cannot hold it against her for not performing CPR if she does not know how (we don’t know of course if she does or not). the point is, she did her best. even jayne surdyka did from the distance she was from the scene — although that did consist of calling the police.

  70. Dee says:

    I am so sick of HLN. They continue to take Zimmerman side, that all they are doing is working their rating. They continue to put this a** Frank Taafee on. It like they want to push up a race war, so they can cover it for their rating. This has really opened my eyes to see who these people will really take side with, when it comes to a white-skinned person on the side of a Black person even a 17-year-old kid. They have totally forgotten Rachel’s testimony, and she was on the other end of the phone.

    • Racism in living color
      in our living rooms

    • ay2z says:

      Shut it down, don’t give them a single Nielsen rate. I did, pulled the plug on cable ages ago

    • dianetrotter says:

      I just turned HLN off. It worked my nerves – Taafe, some woman named Ali with a big hat on, and an attorney named Chrystal are more than I can take this day.

    • Tzar says:

      No offense Dee, but as long as you watch, you are not only doing the only thing they care about, you are also motivating them to keep doing what they are doing. as a matter of logic it would seem even voicing your reaction to them, and potentially attracting rubberneckers to their channel is a nice side effect as well.

  71. smokeegyrl says:
    • Thanks for posting the pic. Guy gets it. It’s nothing short of human compassion for a grieving family that we all should have.

    • I was out & about today and saw a beautiful little boy with his parents. He was so happy and sweet…I saw so much love in that family…it was touching.

      Tracy, Sybrina and Trayvon shared that same bond. I’m so sorry for their loss….it’s heart breaking. I can’t imagine how sickening it must have been for them to learn of their son’s death.

      My mom died of cancer when I was in college…we were very close. You know what she said to me? I remember is so clearly…her in her hospital bed…frail and suffering. She said, “I’m glad it’s me and not you.”

      Nothing worse than outliving your baby…my heart goes out to Sybrina and Tracy. I pray for a guilty verdict. Not for revenge, but for justice. For a sane, civilized society. A kid should be able to walk home from 7-11 undisturbed.

      Sybrina and Tracy have shown true class…from day one. I wish them well…I know they’ll never truly feel well, though, based on my own experience of losing my wonderful mom….

    • Sabrina B. says:

      OMG! I love him more!

    • fauxmccoy says:

      how touching. thank you for sharing. the man surely cared about the job he was doing here. if you have seen him the two times today when called into the courtroom, you can see the raw emotion on his face, desperate for the verdict he seeks. i have no problem doubting his sincerity when he said he wished he could put his hand on trayvon’s shoulder.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        That was like a rain and lightning and flowers and sunshine to my hear when he said he wished he could put his hand on Trayvon’s shoulder.

      • Leisa says:

        I cried like a baby watching him speak so fondly of Trayvon. I have brought my sister up to speed on this case in just the last few weeks at various doctors appointments and she completely understood my emotional reactions to most everything I heard. What a great Guy.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          thanks for contributing, leisa.

          you mentioned severe health issues. i don’t know what you are going through. i would like to pass on a message of hope. i’m a cancer survivor, two times by age 40. i’m 48 now and free and clear. even what seems like the most devastating obstacles CAN be overcome. i really know how it feels to confront your own mortality. i wish you the best and peace of mind in the process.

        • vickie s. votaw says:

          I can also give you hope for cancer survival, in 2000 I had breast cancer, surgery, chemo, radiation, & am now a 13 yr survivor. They are learning more & more every day. Prayers for you, it is a rough ride, 🙂

  72. Yorazigo says:

    Wouldn’t it be lovely?

  73. aussie says:

    Now we wait.

    If we think it’s nerve-wracking, imagine how GZ feels?

    This might be his last night of freedom for the next 30 years or so.

    • racerrodig says:

      “If we think it’s nerve-wracking, imagine how GZ feels?”

      You know I love ya, and with all due respect, none of us will know……beings we’re not murders and all.

      “This might be his last night of freedom for the next 30 years or so.”

      Yep…..I said on this site Sat. I was thinking that might be his last free weekend……lets hope so.

      Hoodies up & Skittles held high.

  74. smokeegyrl says:

    Warning: Adult Content. This man has the feelings of what most of us are feeling inside. I have been wanting to go outside and scream this… whewwwwwww. lawdy… if you have children around… don’t let them hear this. a lot of cursing going on…


  75. Camille says:

    Mark O’Mara a petty, two-bit racist shyster perpetually oozing white privilege; who relies entirely on his trusty bag of juvenile tricks full of low-hanging stereotypically spiteful and arrogantly oppressive racist fruit and his local connections — and who constantly bets on the hate-filled small-minds of like-minded racists

    • Yorazigo says:

      Where did this comment come from, SG2?

    • Rachael says:

      And one of the worst things about him is how he goes on TV and says this isn’t about race, race got brought into it but he didn’t want race involved, blah, blah, blah yet HE is the one who brought up race CONSTANTLY – even in the closing argument (when it was specified that race was not to be mentioned in the trial) with his cut outs, showing the picture of Trayvon in the store, and oh, what was the other – there was something so blatantly obvious – I can’t remember now, but he had those dog whistles blowing all the time. God I hate him. He really can’t believe he isn’t racist and that he was playing to a racist audience, can he? I mean a lot of people do not realize they are racist, but he HAS to, doesn’t he? You can’t DO what he did and say you aren’t.

      • Woow! says:

        MOM can play to the racist audience all day as long as none of the jurors are racist.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        @rachel — if not a full on racist, he certainly has finely honed list of buzz words to pander to racists, aptly demonstrated in the fund raising efforts and pursued doggedly in this trial. part of his ‘winning strategy’ was to play to racist fears he hoped to exploit. his videos, cardboard cutouts, victim pictures he opted to use could not be more illustrative to HIS goals.

        at some point after all his pandering to racists and racist fears, you do have to question what lurks within. it’s all ugly.

  76. YQ says:

    Did any of you get the idea that the jury asked for comprehensive list of evidence because of the way that the DNA results were listed? It could be a good thing if they are focusing on the DNA results somewhat. I know that the jury will be looking at other things. BTW: The stand your ground statue is applicable for Fogen in the instructions. Angela Corey also said that the same statute was applicable for Trayvon.

    • Rachael says:

      I got the idea they did it because they wanted to view the evidence in a logical sequence. A good thing. That means they are really doing this right.

    • dianetrotter says:

      The good thing will be matching up all of GZ’s lies: looking in Taafe’s house, circling the car, hand in waistband, skip to my lou, doubling back, hiding behind the invisible burning bush, home, you don die tonight mofo, covered his nose and mouth while he screamed 40 second, head beat in the concrete at the T, saw the gun, grabbed the gun, then rolled to the south 40 feet, you got me (2x), stretched the hands out while TM lay there cursing, yada, yada. LIES! Video/own words will prove it’s all lies.

  77. Judy75201 says:

    I have a suspicion that O’Mara would have preferred to be the prosecutor in this case. I know he never could have, but his tongue-slips and the many odd things he has said about his client make me think he would have loved to be in Guy’s shoes today.

    • I suspected that, too. I fell out of the chair when he said something to the effect of “let’s walk down my make believe path actual innocence.” lol

    • When he commented for the CA trial, I thought he was pretty good. He wasn’t loud and obnoxious as the other ambulance chasers on TV. I mistakenly thought he was a class act.

      It was truly despicable that he put on Tracy Martin on the stand. And he tried to get Tracy & Sybrina kicked out.

      And I love Rachel. He was horrible to her.

      • Judy75201 says:

        I thought Rachel was spectacular! That girl is awesome.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        @edruminations — i was not familiar with o’mara during his commentator days. but, upon being introduced to him in the very beginning of this case, he struck me as an honorable and upright guy, i was willing to give him the benefit of doubt. his demeanor became markedly different when his buddy west joined him. perhaps west was the nasty influence here, but o’mara went right along appeasing every racist he could. i lost any respect i might have had for him.

        • vickie s. votaw says:

          I felt the same way, faux, I took the word of newscasters that he was honorable,I even sent him a fb message thanking him for taking the case, boy , I was shocked when he showed his true colors. I was very sorry that I had given him any encouragement.

  78. willisnewton says:

    Stays update? I heard they called it a day after asking for an evidence list. I’d say there is good news in that as most evidence is from the state

  79. aisha says:

    Hello everyone, I have been reading many post here for the last 9 months or so. It’s been very interesting.

  80. aisha says:

    I hope that Fogen gets what he deserves, years in prison.

  81. MichelleO says:

    And just think how Shellie Zimmerman set this all off in court, with her big silly self. “Mr. Martin called me an m.f. under his breath.” This is the mentality of these people. I can just imagine what it was to work with either one of them.

    • Malisha says:

      It’s not illegal to call somebody MF. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA, homie!

    • Marsha says:

      I had not heard that. When did that happen? This family has no shame.

      • Puck says:

        JN kicked Shellie and GZ’s parents out of the courtroom the first day because they were on the list of potential witnesses and so are barred from being present during the trial as part of the sequestration rule. Though Trayvon’s parents were on the witness list as well, there’s an exception that states that the victim’s family or a representative is allowed to be present in the courtroom. (Since Crump was a representative of the family but they were going to be there, he had to leave.)

        After the Zimmermans were kicked out, a friend of GZ’s said that Tracy Martin, passing him in the doorway, saw his “family” badge and said “motherfucker” under his breath. The friend got called to the stand and it never went anywhere. The speculation here was that Shellie had put him up to it as a way to get back at Trayvon’s family. It failed.

      • towerflower says:

        I know that they pulled a friend of Z’s to the stand, outside of the jury, and he was questioned about Tracy calling him a MF, I never heard about Shellie saying it. Nothing ever came of it.

  82. Malamiyya says:

    In the previous thread, I asked some questions about what the state did or didn’t present as part of its case. The thread was moving fast and the questions didn’t get taken up, so let me ask them again.

    My questions are, why did the state not point out the blood flowing up from the back of GZ’s head? Why did they not offer gun recoil as a plausible alternative to a punch in the nose? Why did they not demonstrate the misalignment of bullet holes between Trayvon’s clothing and his chest. And why didn’t point out the difference between the scream on the 911 call and GZ’s feeble cry for help during the police re-enactment? For that matter, they didn’t ask which was a more likely thing for Trayvon to have asked at the outset of the confrontation: “What’s your fucking problem, homie?” or “Why are you following me for?” All of these could have been raised, all of them were telling, but none of them came into the closing. Bernie did flash the photo of GZ with the wrong-way blood flow and said it was significant and he would get back to it, but then he never did.

    • tharealkeisha says:

      Noone really knows why they didn’t. I’m guessing it’s speculating. Women are good to be jurors because we always want the truth not excuses.

    • RobertSF says:

      Yes, I’ve wondered all that too. The biggest question, though, is why, oh, why did they play Zimmerman’s statements to police, both at the station and in the re-enactment?

      The prosecution didn’t have to. It could have questioned the police officers without playing the videos. More importantly, the defense could not have played Zimmerman’s statement to police because, for the defense, they were hearsay.

      Several legal pundits have said that was the hole in the net that let Zimmerman wriggle out of testifying. And without the videos and without Zimmerman’s testimony, there would be no self-defense story.

      Had the prosecution not played those videos, Zimmerman would have had to take the stand. And once on the stand, even a first-year law student could have destroyed him, asking him to explain lie after lie after lie.

      With Zimmerman on the stand, the state could have asked questions that laid out its theory of the crime. Questions like —

      “Mr. Zimmerman, you in fact did walk South on Retreat View Circle while still talking to the NEN operator, isn’t that true?”

      “And you in fact did end the call to NEN in the vicinity of the rear entrance, isn’t that true?”

      “And because you were now so far from your truck, you asked the operator to have police call you upon arriving, isn’t that true?”

      “And you then started to return to your truck by walking North on the footpath, isn’t that right?”

      “And while walking North on the footpath, you did in fact encounter Trayvon Martin outside Brandy Green’s condo, isn’t that so?”

      “And upon spotting Martin, did you not try to catch him as he spotted you and moved in fear towards the Northern T?”

      “Weren’t your footsteps the ones Selene Bahadoor testified under oath she heard moving left to right, running towards the Northern T?”

      And Zimmerman could sit there squirming and gamely saying, “No,” to each question, but the prosecution would be planting the story in the jury’s mind. And after Zimmerman denied the truth of all those questions, the prosecution could have asked —

      “Then please explain, Mr. Zimmerman, where were you and what were you doing the four minutes between 7:11:48, when you got out of your truck, and 7:15:45, when according to Rachel Jeantel’s sworn testimony, you yelled at Trayvon Martin, “What are you doing here?”

      It was a horribly missed opportunity.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        The defendant did not have to testify no matter what the prosecution did or did not do, so your despair is mostly speculation anyway. Peace be still!

      • gblock says:

        The police statements, the reenactment, and the Hannity interview, were made an important aspect of the prosecution’s case, in terms of noting the inconsistencies with known facts, the implausibilities, and the way that the story was enhanced with retellings.

        As much as it would have been nice to have seen Fogen on the stand, I believe that the defense would have found a way to avoid it regardless.

    • Agreed…would have loved for them to have repeatedly played the sample of Fogen’s “help! help! help!” after the recorded scream.

      I also would have liked them to have emphasized his vitals were normal….he was not the screamer.

      Men with guns do not cry for help. End of story.

      Fogen is a liar. Rachel got hell about the wake and her age…yes Fogen’s lies were irrelevant to the media.

      • yes not yet

        yet Fogen’s lies were no big deal

      • Malamiyya says:

        I agree that normal vital signs after conflict — particularly the head-bashing, point-of-death struggle GZ says he was in — and then killing somebody, are a big tell that would have communicated to the jury. It makes my list of things that could have been said to the jury and weren’t.

    • vickie s. votaw says:

      I have a question, if CAC’s scream sample wasn’t played for the jury, does it still go with the rest of the evidence back to the jury room? Can they listen to it & use it in their deliberations?

    • gblock says:

      What bothers me is Guy pushing a scenario that Trayvon was on top of Fogen, but was pulling back, immediately before the gun was fired instead of a less ambiguous (and to me, more believable) scenario that the altercation was a fluid situation, that Trayvon was on top earlier, but that before the time of the shooting, the positions had changed.

  83. Dee says:

    Let see if he gets manslaughter will he have any expression then. Even though he thinks he will get away with it all in his head.

  84. Jun says:

    Do the jury just get the SYG statutes as instructions?

    • Dee says:

      No this is not a SYG case. It is a self-defense case. They were going to go in front of the judge for the SYG case, but changed their minds when they found out that Judge Debra Nelson was going to be the only that would hear it. Because she just turned down a black guy who was claiming SYG. And she watches body language very careful. Because she said that this other guy did not look as though he was remorse, or had any quilt for killing this person. And trust me, she has been watching Zimmerman non remorseful self. But yet he laughs when it about him.

    • No, they get a set of pattern instructions developed by the Florida State Supreme Court.

    • disappointed says:

      I think so but Mr Guy told them this is not a SYG, it’s a stay in your car. 🙂

      • towerflower says:

        No matter how much they said it before the start of the trial, it never was a SYG case, never. The writers of the law and even the Governor who signed it into law said that the law as written did not apply to fogen and his actions.

  85. tharealkeisha says:

    John Guy and I will play in the Body Guard2. I’ll be Whitney Houston and he’ll be Kevin Costner. I can’t sing though, LOL.

  86. abbyj1 says:

    That sign is the best, YAHTC! Thank you for the great laugh.
    This is it!!!

  87. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Well, gz is waiting, waiting, sweating, waiting….with no hint or idea of what the verdict will be.


    • racerrodig says:

      “Well, gz is waiting, waiting, sweating, waiting….with no hint or idea of what the verdict will be. ”

      Mostly sweating I’d say…he couldn’t have enough hankies today……wiping all day.

      Sucks to be FogenPhoole about now.

  88. Ty Flair says:

    Sleepness night continue the jurors have to get this right.

    • Sophia33 says:

      You should sleep like a baby knowing that Fogen can’t sleep and is stressing out. LOL!

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I felt peaceful after the great rebuttal by Guy, but as the evening wears on I feel restless and anxious. I wish the jury would have an answer tomorrow, but logically it should take longer.

  89. My Forehead Tho says:

    To flee or not to flee.

    I’m sure Fogen has been asking himself that ever since O’Mara’s closing.

  90. KittySP says:

    I would like to take this moment to thank the Professor and Lady Crane for their hospitality, and making this blog a safe haven where one can come and learn about the law, make new friends, and voice their opinions.

    This has been a wonderful learning experience for me and I have enjoyed getting to know so many of you. I applaud you all for your love, support, and compassion you’ve shown towards the Martin/Fulton family in their quest for justice in the killing of their son Trayvon Benjamin Martin.

    Now that this case is in the hands of the Jury, only God and those six women know what the verdict will be. I will not be watching the media coverage as they await the verdict. I am praying for the best, but in reality, prepared to expect and accept the worst.

    So in parting, I wish you Love,Peace, and Soooooul!

  91. Tzar says:

    I think the state’s strategy was brilliant
    I have lived with Fogen’s lies for a year
    they are the reason I despise
    the flippant manner in which he would confabulate revealed to me exactly what value he placed on Trayvon’s lies, they are the true direct evidence of his depraved mind and they are what the jury needed to hear obtrusively in order to feel the way I do. I can’t imagine them letting such a character walk free, laws be damned.

    • Tzar says:

      they are the reason I despise him

    • KateW says:

      Yes because he tried to cover up his crime. If he had done nothing wrong why lie? The State hammered away WHY LIE!!! Because he is hiding something. Just like during the bond hearing he was hiding money and an extra passport. WHY LIE because you want to be deceptive.

    • Soulcatcher says:

      I agree Tzar. Especially a man with no regrets. A man who was in fear of his life that had to gun to kill a child, and then goes on hanity and states when asked “do you believe you would not be here if you didn’t have a gun? NO SIR.Siop me if I am wrong, does he that the the use of deadly force of a gun was unnessasary, that he believes he would still be alive had he not used a gun. That means he was not in fear of his life, which shoots down self defense. Right?

      • Soulcatcher says:

        sorry, insert does he mean

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Discusses the caliber of ammunition when he should be seeking medical assistance for Travyon, lies, no regrets.

        I don’t know what his deal is, but I’m pretty sure he’ll reap what he sowed.

  92. KateW says:

    Please be over this weekend. I need to get back to my trading. I have been entrenched in this trial.

  93. Sophia33 says:

    This must be excruciating for George! I love it!

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      He is finally in the dark ……..as to the verdict lurking behind him.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      yes! regardless of the verdict, he will die a broken man. now, i do not wish that upon anyone, but anyone with such horrible judgement brings that upon their own damned self.

      • Sophia33 says:

        You know for me. It’s his family and friends that have made what he did even worse. They were HORRIBLE.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          sophia — setting aside all that i know in this case, as a juror, i would have to be somewhat suspicious of almost every juror called on behalf of the defense. yes they made it worse, hopefully in the courtroom and for the jurors as well. even gym boy and ex-cop fighter dude were suspect because of their obvious agendas and they were not even ‘friends’.

      • Yorazigo says:

        Yup! In the words of Taffe – you plant corn, you get corn.

  94. colin black says:

    IIf nesesry do thet deliberate Sunday?

  95. Judge Nelson just excused the jury until 9 am EDT tomorrow.

  96. nocamo33 says:

    Recess till tomorrow 9am EST.

  97. colin black says:

    ?new thread? not again fred

    imaginr the nets gonna melt at verdict

    He is litterlery
    Caught in AWEB of his own spun lies an sighs

    Oh what a web we weave when first we practice to deceive

    To make people believe that you perceived a threat when you threw


    over a non SUSPECT.

    You expect us to believe that those you deceived an let you leave.

    That we would not say get this MONSTER to PAY it was JUST A CHILD he did slay.

    An all though your suppoters did pay for your debts they did pay.

    But now you will pay as your going away for a very long stay.

    And youll be the asshole that never got away.


  98. Sabrina B. says:

    Loved that guy in front of Sybrina. He was not hididng his disgust with fogen. Even shaking his head at times.

  99. Sophia33 says:

    How long did they deliberate?

  100. jduu says:

    I was the jury foreman for a high profile capital murder case about 20 years ago. That jury took their responsibility very seriously and went through the evidence meticulously with in depth discussion and debate. As I recall, we deliberated for 6 days after 5 weeks of trial.

    • KateW says:

      how do you come to a verdict? does everyone go around the table and state their verdict?

      Sounds like such an interesting and scary process. To know someone’s innocence or guilt is in your hands, so being thorough is a must I’m sure.

      • jduu says:

        He received the death penalty for multiple counts of murder 1 plus one count of murder 2 (he is still alive on death row).

        The trial was in two phases — charging (6 weeks) and then sentencing (another 6 weeks). Unlike in Florida, this jury was responsible for deciding the sentence as well as the charges.

        We started with secret ballots but as time went on, it became an open discussion with everyone getting to understand the rhymes and reasons behind each jury member’s point of view.

        It was a truly fascinating and memorable experience. It was definitely not taken lightly by everyone involved.

    • abbyj1 says:

      Ok, jduu, I apologize for saying that juries probably work out their verdicts pretty quickly. I didn’t mean to imply that they do not take their oaths and responsibilities very seriously . . . or meticulously. Can’t they also just know pretty quickly what they want to do—and then just get on with it?

  101. Tzar says:

    Jury is adjourning until tomorrow 9 am

  102. Jury wants to go home. Lawyers agree.

    • abbyj1 says:

      Ryan, maybe it’s just from the stories of jurors wearing thin, getting tired, wanting to get back to their own lives and beds, but I always imagine them deciding on their verdicts pretty quickly, then figuring out what the minimal decent interval is that they can manage. Like, maybe, the jury already decided this afternoon that GZ’s ass should be shipped away ASAP, but they’ll just chill, catch up on sleep, and hold off until Monday before letting their verdict be known.

  103. greenwarrior4 says:

    My guess (supported by nothing) is that they’ll come back with a verdict on Monday, assuming they deliberate over the weekend.

    • abbyj1 says:

      greenwarrior, such a wise supposition about Monday. Over on a different (much more contentious) thread, one poster wrote that the jury would come back with a verdict on Monday because, “Saturday nights and riots go together like bread and butter.”

      Not that I think they’ll be riots, necessarily, but it is funny to think that riots are somehow better scheduled on weekends.

    • LeaNder says:

      Hmm, Shellie did not seem to sit next to the parents any longer. I also noticed she did not control her mime to the extend the others did during Guy’s closing argument.

      Here is a curious little snapshot too Shellie trailing quite a bit behind.

      I hated seniors expression during Guy’s argument, it almost felt like a not quite expressed grin.

  104. You all have thoughtful comments says:


    Click they are back in court with jury wants to adjourn

  105. colin black says:

    prolly call it a night Id expect surely not an all nighter

    Sleep on it come back to morrow an convict murder 2 on sat 13th.


  106. KateW says:

    Bernie was great too!! He presented all the evidence and Guy touched on some of the major items and finished it off. It was an effective close for the State.

  107. Sophia33 says:

    It’s almost 6 PM. How long is the jury going to deliberate for tonight?

  108. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    Judge Nelson face was riveted by that John Guy! She appear to believe him.. Maybe I wanted to see it. What do you think…

    • colin black says:

      she was spellbound like us all even foggagge he was like a snake watching a charmer with a flute in a suite

      futes of chapage for the State soon.

      Though they wony joy ess ly celebrate.

      Trayvon still be gone to soon.

      • abbyj1 says:

        True, Colin. That’s the saddest of all:

        Trayvon still be gone too soon.

      • LeaNder says:

        I liked it very much, when he said he would like to slap Trayvon on his shoulder and that he will not be ever able to do this. Especially after observing it as a ritual in the defense camp.

        I much more liked it when he said, he will forever have Trayvon’s blood on his hands.

        • LeaNder says:

          Fogen will forever have Trayvon’s blood on his hands.

          100% he will never be able to trick his way out of that simple fact.

    • vickie s. votaw says:

      I watched it after listening to it on the radio on my way home from work. I thought she was riveted on Mr Guy

    • cielo62 says:

      Alas, she doesn’t decide the outcome. But I’m sure it will influence her sentencing decisions.

  109. colin black says:

    Guw was explosive he set of fireworks

    foggagge was scolded scalded an burnt

    Guy was no fire

    Gur rocks just like GUY FAWKES

    Burning down the house.

    • colin black says:

      em Guywas on

      not no

      Typos there ye go.

      • racerrodig says:

        Dude….we love ya…no need to correct yourself….learned just how you talk over the last year……I love the way you have with words.

        • LeaNder says:

          well on versus no is a typical transpose action that happens to many of us occasionally.

          I agree Colin, he was on fire. He was pure gold. I also think that the Talking heads were quite an interesting group.

  110. KateW says:

    If the jury got to hear about the lying during the bond hearing and the hiding of money and passports, they would see this guy is a very dishonest person. But of course that could not be introduced into evidence.

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      Right on….he is a con man.. and a overweight eating con man.. He created a big problem I don’t think Daddy Judge can get out of.

    • Unabogie says:

      I’m not clear on why this was not allowed in evidence. This was part of the case, was it not? Could that only have been introduced has Zimmerman taken the stand?

      • KateW says:

        I’m not sure. Perhaps that is a question MasonBlue/The Professor or any other knowledgeable person versed in the law can answer. I suspect it is because it calls into question his character and it is not the defendant’s character on trial and perhaps it would prejudice the jury? Only if the defense opened that door then the state can introduce character evidence. Other than that it is only evidence as it relates to the crime that can be presented, and it would be the State’s burden and not the defendant’s burden.

      • The State could have attempted to introduce evidence during its case-in-chief of his scheme with his wife to conceal from the Court thousands of dollars in internet contributions and a second passport.

        Rule 404(b) permits the prosecution to introduce evidence of uncharged misconduct against a defendant to show consciousness of guilt.

        An effort to conceal substantial financial assets and a second passport from the trial court at a bail hearing in order to flee the country to avoid trial in the pending case would show consciousness of guilt.

        I am not aware of an appellate case that has considered this issue and that may be the reason why the State did not attempt to introduce the evidence in this case.

        After all, why create an issue for appeal, unless you believe you must do so to win the trial?

    • roderick2012 says:

      they would see this guy is a very dishonest person.

      That’s putting it mildly. I believe that George suffers from several mental issues including lack of self control because who in his right mind would hatch a scheme to deceive the court knowing that your conversation is being recorded and your life may be on the line,

      But George didn’t seem too worried about or believe that his case would go to trail.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        he’s ignorant and arrogant. it’s a dangerous combination.

      • KateW says:

        I agree roderick. I too conclude he has some mental issues. He lacks empathy and this was brought up in trial, his attitude and demeanor are very matter fact, nonchalont. It’s like he murdered someone and there is no remorse or as he put it he would do nothing differently. He is often stoic. He tries to twist and turn situations in his favor and always thinks he can manipulate and convict or talk his way out of something. Just like the lying during the bond hearing and just like you said knowing his conversations are recorded, he ultimately thought, despite this, that he could “flout”, as Judge Lester put it, the system. He’s crafty in directing people where he wants them to look. Like Bernie said in court, during the walkthrough, Bernie said he directed the officers to the back of the apartments like “see there are no addresses here” when clearly a few feet to his right are the front of a series of buildings with numbers on them. Bernie said he must think they are fools.

        I would label him a sociopath.

        • KateW says:

          …and convince…

        • Malisha says:

          I’d say cynical, rather than stoic.
          Fussing about a little bloody nose and a bump on the head is not stoical in my book. Did you expect to kill somebody and come away without a scratch?

        • LeaNder says:

          I don’t like the use of the term stoic for Fogen either. Mainly since I think the stoics did not ignore the emotions, but to maintain an inner calm, to observe but not be led by them. It indeed seems to be used they way Kate does. Wikipedia: emotionless. But that seems to be a misunderstanding of Stoicisms ethics. Fogen has a reason to not show the public any responses, but that reason is not what stoicism is about.

          Personally I think there are different layers of knowledge in emotions, they are simply not as easy to read at linear logic. I am close to the stoics of not allowing myself to be led by them purely, but consider them well worth observing. The type of emotions the stoics criticize just as in fact quite a few religions are the passions, and impulses that play quite a prominent role in our story.

        • LeaNder says:

          Kate, I would in fact use stoic for both Tracy and Sybrina. I would never use it for anyone that has a reason to conceal his emotions in an attempt to manipulate others.

    • DruDo says:

      The jurors live in that area, so I would expect most of them are already aware of fogen’s and spouse’s lies and attempts to hide money and passport. It was probably more prominent news there, than in other areas of the country. I’m guessing they’ll have that in mind, even though it wasn’t apart of this trial.

      • DruDo says:

        * a part, not apart.

      • LeaNder says:

        I threw away my extensive notes on the jury selection hearing or the diverse people questioned, I deeply regret having done so, I am only aware of one person in there that seems to have followed the news to a larger extend. But remember she had to state that she would not allow herself or any other to bring up issues that were not in evidence.

    • Soulcatcher says:

      Chances are the heard it before they were selected.

    • racerrodig says:

      I’d bet at least 3 of them know it from the news last year……In fact I’d bet the farm on it.

  111. fauxmccoy says:

    feeling significantly more hopeful today, although i slept through o’mara’s closing and do not intend to watch. i’ve had enough of them.

    john guy was fabulous. i am definitely feeling more positive, especially for a manslaughter verdict but will hope for M2 based on my understanding of the evidence.

    best thing guy did was to ask the jury to consider what would happen if the roles were reversed and what would verdict be.

  112. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    It is looking brighter today! Mr. Guy is my hero!

  113. ay2z says:

    Watch as John Guy gets past the mid-way point, and as he becomes more pasionate, and notice the camera turn to Mark O’Mara.

    O’Mara clearly nods in approval, (if not, he might be nodding a told you so that he was going to say that, but I read him not being snide at all, the nodding ‘yes’ was subtle but clea, even Joh Guy had O’Mara’s nod at that moment)

    • vickie s. votaw says:

      I said the same thing on the other thread & got po poed, I think he was really impressed.

      • ay2z says:

        At that very moment, what he did was so subtle, he didn’t even know he was doing it, was my take. He forgot himself and where the camera was pointed.

        The rest of the time, he put on his game face.

  114. For those who missed it in the other thread.

  115. Unabogie says:

    You ladies need to control yourselves.

  116. bxcar says:

    I think they may convict on manslaughter. I have no idea if this is true, but it makes sense to me.

  117. Sabrina B. says:

    I wish I were able to hug Guy and tell him thank you for making that child human. Not the menacing monster that the defendant tried to paint him out to be.

    • Unabogie says:

      Yes, I agree. I think the Martin/Fulton family did that quite well, though. But this concept of Trayvon being a normal kid who just happened to be the wrong color to be walking in RATL seems foreign to people.

      On another forum, I was arguing with someone about the use of the word “homie”. I pointed out how “homie” is completely dated and that anyone with teenagers in their life would know this. “Homie” went out in the 90’s with In Living Color and “homie don’t play that”.

      He said “I do have teenagers, but they wouldn’t have much in common with an inner city youth from a dysfunctional family”.

      Wow, so much to unpack there. Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin are middle class folks. Their oldest son is in college. Their youngest son, while certainly playing with weed, was headed to college as well. Sybrina has a college degree and steady employment for 24 years in the same job.

      Yet to this guy, she’s “dysfunctional” and from “the inner city”.

      In this respect, Trayvon could never be seen as an equal to Zimmerman, so therefore he wouldn’t enjoy a right to self defense, nor a right to his own fear, nor even a right to his own running away. That was transformed into “violent skipping” as some form of intimidation. Even his iced tea was turned into nefarious drug abuse by labeling it “PURPLE DRANK”. Nowhere along the line was Trayvon allowed to be less than perfect. Any trouble he got into was proof of his thuggery.

      (of course the mountains of bad acts by Zimmerman can be excused away as merely old news or minor incidences)

      John Guy communicated to this jury, in a way that the entire SPD seemed to ignore, that Trayvon Martin was a human being, just past 16, who was murdered by a bad person’s indifference to his life.

      Really, props to that man. He deserves applause today.

      • Sabrina B. says:

        So correct on all points. The mindset is boggling. How the adult man who is actually the one who has been arrested for violence can receive the benefit of the doubt over a teenager who has not been arrested for anything and smoked a joint, is completely weird. But, many of them are still smarting from OJ so, fogen could be named Habib from Iraq, enrolled in flight school, and they would see it as an opportunity for payback for OJ. Most of us have forgotten about the OJ trial but, yet they have held on to the resentment for years, apparently waiting for an opportunity to get payback. Can’t count how many times, when all else falls through, the last resort is the OJ argument.

        • dianetrotter says:

          Yes, GZ has become a hero. After he goes to jail, Taafe will make a movie.

          • Soulcatcher says:

            Let me guess, another Children of the Corn movie. Or Chucky, staring fogen himself. Nightmare on RVC, staring West as Freddy Krugar.

      • Dee says:

        Exactly, that’s why he changed the word ”homie” and never said it again, because he realized that blacks don’t take like that. You better believe his family was coaching him on what to say and what not to say.

        • dianetrotter says:

          Kids today say “My n*****h!” They even say “B***h.”

        • Xena says:

          @Dee. The label “homie” was once intended to mean friend or acquaintance. GZ tried to posture it as an insult, much like in the following scene.

          • racerrodig says:

            As I recall homie came from “Home (town) boy” in the mid to late 70’s….at least according to a friend of mine who is black, used the term a million times and is my age.

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig. Agreed. It was a term of familiarity.

          • ay2z says:

            Isn’t it funny how quickly it was dropped by this defendant and not repeated again.

            Came back to haunt him in his statements to police though, in closing. The jury heard it.

          • Xena says:

            @ay2z. Yep. Had it not been stereotyping or profiling, “homie” would have been a minor inconsistency. However, GZ was trying to paint a picture of Trayvon being a mean, bad-ass from the 70’s, and that would give an impression that he was older also.

      • Malisha says:

        The thing about “homie” (I can say it now; before I couldn’t because I had sent a written non-e-mail correspondence to FDLE about this and didn’t want it out in the domain) is this:
        First interview, Fogen says to Singleton that Trayvon said, “You have a fuckin’ problem homie?” and on and on etc. By the time Serino is interviewing him, he says the question was “You have a fuckin’ problem?” Serino asks him if “the guy” used the word “homie” and Fogen says, “I don’t remember.”

        Well if this was the FIRST thing this real suspicious guy said to him, and it included such a strange word, why would he forget that between his first and second interview?

        CONCLUSION: He made the whole thing up. The first time he told the tale he thought there was NO independent way to check anything he said, so he gave himself freedom to say ANYTHING at all. Second time around when Serino was giving him a bit of an “uh oh” feeling by not accepting 100% every dumb thing he spouted off, he got a bit more conservative. Then, of course, he began to expand again so that by the time of the “re-enactment” he was ready to really jam.

        “Homie” was a “tell.”

        • Malisha says:

          Also, the use of the word “homie” showed what he thought of Trayvon: thought he was a stereotypical Black movie thug. Thought he’d speak like a B-movie Black thug.

        • Unabogie says:

          I seems so obvious! Mainly because as you said, he said it once but then realized it wasn’t working and pretended to forget it, and also because no one, and I mean no one, under 30 years old uses that word except for Zimmerman.

          • Vickis Smith says:


            I had heard the word “Homes”- not “Homie”; is this expression used today- or was it ever used?

          • ay2z says:

            Vickie, go to Axiom Amnesia and listen for yourself. Search doc of this case for ‘audio’ and listen to the police interview with Singleton.

            And then listen to the interviews with Serino, and hear Serino ask if he ever actually saidthe word word ‘homie’. And listen to what the defendant said, he droropped it from the stories to police, at that point by saying “I don’t know’.

            Listen for yourself.

          • Unabogie says:


            I grew up in Los Angeles, and IIRC, back in the 90’s people called each other “homie” and “homes” (interchangeably).

            These days, my 17 year old nephew and his friends call each other “nigga”. So when Rachel Jeantel said that it sounded legit. When Zimmerman said “what’s your problem, homie”, it sounded like the complete bullshit it really is.

            I’m amazed that that one line wasn’t a deal breaker for these Zimbots.

        • Soulcatcher says:

          And a bff to coach him, “the gun” was a “tell.”

        • MedicineBear says:

          Malisha, good on you! This important information made it (either directly or indirectly) into John Guy’s closing rebuttal where he outlines how GZ’s statements fluctuate wildly. This is one of the most salient points (if not THE core point) that JGuy illuminated for the Jury:

          Look at all the documented, recorded, direct evidence from GZ himself. WHAT motives, intentions, and pre-formed beliefs are revealed by GZ’s own words? WHY would he have to lie, materially change, or embellish his own words if he believed in the innocence of his actions and pre-formed assumptions that evening? If GZ believed in his own innocence, WHY did he have to lie about the Victim?

          I think the Jury will indeed be seriously viewing all the recorded interviews this weekend and will render their decision based on GZ’s own words. O’M’s closing lament that “GZ should have stayed silent” shows that even O’M knows that GZ’s own words have been “used against him” to demonstrate ill-will, profiling, aggressive pursuit, and depraved disregard for another’s life that resulted in the unnecessary death of Trayvon Martin.

          Many blessings and appreciation for the part you played in getting crucial data in front of the jury!

      • “In this respect, Trayvon could never be seen as an equal to Zimmerman, so therefore he wouldn’t enjoy a right to self defense, nor a right to his own fear, nor even a right to his own running away”

        Nor even his right to scream. 😦

        • bettykath says:

          Trayvon and fogen were not equals in any sense of the word. Trayvon was on his way to being a success. fogen already had a clear record of failure.

      • towerflower says:

        Unabogie, I agree…..I called foul when I first heard fogen say homie. I’m old enough to know that word went out in the 90’s. The other thing I would argue about with people is how the Purple Drank has gone viral. When I first heard about this drug and this case I researched it. Some, like the outhouse users, try to say that Trayvon went to the 7-11 to buy his “fix” for the Purple Drank, that his drink and skittles are the prime ingredient for it.

        The problem with it is when I first started the research on it, it never listed Arizona Watermelon Cocktail Drink or skittles as the ingredients to make this drug. Jolly Ranchers and Mt. Dew were the two or the three and the final being the codeine based cough syrup. Since the shooting, Wikipedia has added the Arizona drink and skittles along with OTC Robitussin cough medicine (which some claim that Brandi had in her home). I know it Wiki and anyone can alter a topic but it shows how quickly some will buy into a rumor and escalate it. Some have even said that his autopsy report shows chronic Purple Drank abuse which showed up in his liver and brain—–TM had a mild fatty liver and there are many reasons for this including a person’s diet and the comments in the report about his brain are in line with the brain being denied the blood and oxygen flow.

        Did TM has issues….yes, just like thousands of other teens many of which grow up to be productive, normal adults. His issues were no reason to ever label him as a thug, gangsta, or an excuse for his death.

        I have never understood how some put fogen up on a pedestal, I’ve tried to look at the case as if they were both purple and fogen’s stories didn’t make sense and add that to his past history and it spelled out trouble.

        I pray that the jury can also see his lies and how his story doesn’t make sense and that a teen lost his life because of his actions. I pray that the conviction comes soon and the family of Trayvon can begin to heal.

        • MedicineBear says:

          The primary cause for fatty liver (which is epidemic in our culture — no matter how fat or thin one is) is overconsumption (percentage-wise) of carbohydrates (especially High Fructose Corn Syrup — HFCS) in one’s diet.

          The most sinister toxin in the skittles and drink was undoubtedly HFCS, making them close to 100% carbohydrate and 0% nutritive.

      • KA says:

        “Homie don’t play that” was an “In Living Color” line that was so popular years ago as was “Cracker Ass Cracker” made famous by a Chris Rock but.

        There is a good chance Trayvon never saw “In Living Color”, but there is a very good chance he saw videos of Chris Rock since he is still popular today (it has been replayed on Comedy Central.

        I de friend ed someone on FB qho we have been family friends with for over a decade due to his comments about Rachael and using the “creepy ass cracker” terminology being racist. This same person led youth and heard his youth call each other “Nigahs” (mostly white and Hispanic youth) as names for friends and he had an excuse for them, and an excuse for my husband who likes the Chris Rock comedy bit, and an excuse for everyone who quotes the Chris Rock line, but Rachel and Trayvon, he did not “feel” they got any of that from Chris Rock unlike his white friends and youth, and that they were racists for saying it. Of course, he threw in a little defense of Paula Deen in there.

        I asked him nicely 3 times to delete his comments (they were on a tribute page to another fallen black teen) and he refused. I cannot be friends with these people who continually spread lies and hatred that further the injustice that is already in play today.

        • MedicineBear says:

          Good for you! Much respect here for you stepping into doing the righteous thing. Each “little” act of stepping into righteous power empowers Justice and Healing for us all. Props and Bless you!

        • bettykath says:

          The only person I’ve defriended on fb for cause (a couple b/c we really had nothing in common anymore) was a hs classmate who had some really nasty things to say about “those” people. She was speaking of Mexicans and those of Mexican descent. I sometimes engage in discussion but since some new members of my extended family, fb friends, would see her comments (and mine), I decided that we didn’t need her.

      • LeaNder says:

        The lean/watermelon sizzup theory has a fatal flaw. First skittles is not the used ingredient and 2 the cough medicine is missing.

        So it is more wishful thinking than a theory. I guess it came into existence with the supposed ice tea / watermelon juice “cover up”.

        Consider if Trayvon indeed wanted to create that, why didn’t he get in what he really needed in the 711 shop? No need to get anything different, was there? Also where would he get the cough medicine the same day? Add to that the theory needs an additional ingredient, Chad must be lie too. Remember the prof’s KISS theory?

        Besides as far as I know none of the ingredients are illegal so what, really?

        Much more interesting is the huge amount of energy one can observe that people feel that Trayvon should be smeared he cannot be allowed to have been just a regular teen.

    • MedicineBear says:

      Yeah, I’d like to hug his brains out! ; ]

    • IMBack says:

      Yes me too. Does an6one have his email?

  118. KateW says:

    John Grisham is writing a book about this guy as we speak.

  119. cielo62 says:

    >^..^< Joining the migration.

  120. colin black says:

    KittySP says:

    July 12, 2013 at 4:30 pm

    Not reported of a foreman. They did have question asking for inventory list for evidence

    unlike the pinnellas pinheads whom never even viewed a thing except the sweet trolley menu.

    • ay2z says:

      Yes, all those cakes and cakettes they served up in P County.

      Right, absolutely right, Coin, and this is at least a sign that this jury takes their responsibilities seriously at this time.

      They may take responsibility, in general, seriously.

  121. towerflower says:

    Crowds are building outside the courthouse, from everything I have seen they are all Trayvon supporters. There was a bomb threat yesterday to the civil courthouse–wrong building.

    Read on the outhouse that the NBPs were present but Channel 2 or HLN isn’t reporting that yet.

    • colin black says:

      Nah there having there monthly meeting in a phone box in Georgia.

    • Xena says:

      The outhouse folks think anyone dressed in black is a NBP.

    • roderick2012 says:

      Read on the outhouse that the NBPs were present but Channel 2 or HLN isn’t reporting that yet.

      You mean all two of them? LOL

    • crazy1946 says:

      I watched a film clip of the gathering outside the court house, saw people (but not many) saw a few tabby cats, but no black panthers, hmmm, did some escape from the zoo and were they spotted near the court house?

      • dianetrotter says:

        I don’t see the point of the people gathering, chanting, and carrying signs. They probably want to show their support but someone watching television might have other ideas. The gatherings were necessary to bring attention to the killing of Trayvon. The process is well underway. They have no impact on what the jury is doing. I wish they would go home or to a location where the proceedings are being televised. When there is a large group all it takes is for one person to do something crazy and others react.

        • vickie s. votaw says:

          There is that crowd mentality that takes over. I worked at LAX when Bobby Kennedy flew into LA before he was murdered. There was a huge crowd and it got pretty unruly, a lady came running into the restaurant , some man had been hitting her over the head with an umbrella. It blew my mind, and made wary of large groups of people.

          • Vickis Smith says:


            I had been working for a small tv rental shop when Bobby Kennedy came to town at that time. We rented a TV to his campaign that night.

            My boss came into work the morning after the shooting- he was crying. He had actually passed Sirhan Sirhan in the kitchen as he was leaving. He kept blaming himself for not stopping him. I told him that this was crazy- how could he have known what Sirhan was up to? He hadn’t had the gun out while in the hotel kitchen.

            He also had rented out a TV to Gibby Folger: that night she, Sharon Tate and the others were murdered by the Manson “family”.

          • vickie s. votaw says:

            Hey, vickis smith, thanks for the reply, I think I ran into Manson in SF before he was arrested. I also had some crazy friends who were in jail with him after he was arrested. That was a real scary time for hippies in California !

          • ay2z says:

            Chanting ramps things up. This case, people who wish to hold vigil or to show support peacefully, sould simply sing. Harmless and powerful if in protest, but I don’t know what the ‘protest’ can possibly be about since the judicial stytem began to work with a proper full investigation, and with the decision to arrest and allow the admitted killer to face this justice system.

            That is all the family ever wanted and they are the only ones who could have anything to say about this, unless Trayvon needed someone else to take their place, had this been a case where his estate needed that for some reason.

            This should be about vigils and quiet peaceful sining, if people feel the need.

            Not about riots and ‘chanting’. Chanting seems to carry no use for the family, no use for justice, no matter what this jury decides, it should be the end of it unless people still feel the need to remember as any conviction moves into appeals and then, not ‘protesting’.

            This is it.

            What the heck is there to protest that the family themselves, or thorugh their lawyers, have not and will not, call for.

            Arrest, and let the system work.

            No place for self-serving interst groups.

            If not

          • nocamo33 says:

            I actually thought of holding a vigil in my home town here, but was concerned that things could get out of hand. I think people should band together when things cool down. A conviction would be a step in the right direction, but there is so much that needs to be done.

        • Malisha says:

          It also would be possible for some Frank Taaffe-like dude to come and fire on the crowd. It is Florida, after all.

        • LeaNder says:

          Diana, I wasn’t much involved in protest in my life, but I have a couple of friends that were. You shouldn’t underestimate the idea of provocateurs ever. Consider it a given. That is why new forms of protest like the Flashmob, who only dance and sing is really efficient. No big chance for escalation.

          I once met a police officer hitchhiking home to my parents after a heavy protest in the university town where I lived at the time. A girlfriend of mine had for the first time ever joined the protest with a camera. She was beaten up by police and her camera, a pretty expensive one, was thrown in the river nearby. She had to go to the hospital and was very afraid to give her address or the reason she had heavy head wounds fearing police would bother her even further. I told this officer about it. He admitted that it was occasionally a problem that even their people escalated matters sometimes. There are fears on both sides, so anyone on any side can over react. But you never hear something like that in the news.

      • towerflower says:

        The Sanford Zoo has one if I’m not mistaken and it isn’t too far away……

    • Rachael says:

      Bomb threat? Probably Sundance with his “explosive” information.

      • Malisha says:

        Only thing explosive about Sundance is his colitis.

      • racerrodig says:

        I see he stopped his “……just got off the phone” shit. He probably keeps having to inflate the flat tire on his house….

        • Rachael says:

          No, he really hasn’t. Just went over there and checked. He said something about now that the trial was over, there was this little bit he could tell that he couldn’t before or something. I didn’t read it so I don’t know what it was, just him being his old silly self so I didn’t bother. But I did catch this comment by someone:

          “Judge nelson is totally biased for the prosecution. I applaud attorney west for not taking her crap. She is an idiot in the tank for the prosecution. She has no backbone and is allowing the blacks to run her.”

          How disgusting is that? And they say they aren’t racist?

      • ay2z says:

        Those are the only types, with their hatred, racism, and ignorance, who benefit from this. Their reasons for hyping their hatred and ignorance, is now passed.

        They were long ago, redundant but for the defense use, and now it’s over for them.

      • towerflower says:

        The bomb threat was on Thursday and it targeted the Civil Courthouse which is in a different building from the Criminal Courthouse. Nothing was ever found but it makes you wonder if they got the wrong building.

      • LeaNder says:

        After watching it again, I finally understand how we can know that he never observed Trayvon at Taaffee’s house. He told Singleton were he met him first and it was the entrance higher up. Did anyone notice that in the reenactment? I surely didn’t. But it makes Randy Smith clever attempts that caught my attention to make Fogen elaborate a little when he interrupts himself even more significant.

        What a pity defense did not look closer into the call on 2/2/12 were he called back to report a change of address: Taaffe’s house. To this very day, I am wondering why we had no audio of that call. It’s only visible in the written report, defense at one point objected to the custodian of these reports, if I remember correctly. Maybe I would find something about the subject in the bench encounter records.

        I wish I would know more in this context, than we were told.

  122. colin black says:

    13 +one guy done good.

  123. willisnewton says:

    I’m guessing a verdict by tomorrow. I think they want one now but cooler heads will prevail so they can look like they took the time to go over everything.
    but that’s a WILD guess.

    Anything is possible
    What GZ says happened is not possible.

  124. ZCBest says:

    I am here!

  125. KateW says:

    Makes me want him to convict me of a crime. Any crime lol

  126. Soulcatcher says:


  127. willisnewton says:

    any rumors of the jury’s workings yet? do they have a foreman, etc? Ive been afk

    • KittySP says:

      Not reported of a foreman. They did have question asking for inventory list for evidence.

      • ay2z says:

        read that, it’s a good start

      • fauxmccoy says:

        that means they have a foreperson. the only way the jurors communicate to the court is through the foreperson and written statements. depending on the written statements, the jury may or may not be brought into the court room.

        • After reading the note and seeing who the foreperson was, the defense didn’t look to pleased. They spent tons on the jury consultant. On the other hand, BDLR had a smile on his face.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            oh really? i had not noticed that. let’s take that as a good thing, then 🙂

          • MedicineBear says:

            I can’t imagine that O’M would be pleased to find out that the jury is actually going to look at evidence.

  128. Sophia33 says:


  129. Rachael says:


  130. Valerie says:


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