Discussion regarding Bernie de la Rionda’s closing argument

Thursday, July 11, 2013

We have over 1100 comments on this thread and it’s taking about 5 minutes for my page to refresh.

I am going to open a new thread that will hopefully solve that problem.

1,004 Responses to Discussion regarding Bernie de la Rionda’s closing argument

  1. LeaNder says:

    wow, so powerful. Guy is pure gold. Brilliant the way he picked up on the impressions that O’Marra left on the ladies minds.

    He committed a couple of really serious plunders, his worst enemy is his arrogance that often glow through his polite manipulator mask.

    In hindsight I think O’Mara’s blunders were a lot worse than whatever I didn’t like about Bernie’s closure yesterday. Compared with O’Mara in it felt in fact rather good. The guy is just too much of a controller to communicate effectively. To use some of his words he is controlled by hubris and ego. The best part was his show of superiority concerning “the supercop” Serino. Hmm? Big mistake, the spite did show. Not sure if the ladies are as stupid as he wants them to be. Fogen’s peers. Hmmm? Let’s see.

  2. You all have thoughtful comments says:


    MOM has to present gz’s account today. Oh, it will kinda be backed up by witnesses as far as the animation.

    However, what will be strongly in the minds of the jury from yesterday? What did Bernie hammer in and I think proved with the best examples?

    That gz is a liar! Over and over they hear liar, liar, liar.

    The fairytale beating. Well, look at Trayvon’s hands in the photo….there is no blood on Trayvon’s hands. No forensic evidence of gz blood on Trayvon’s hands.


    Everything presented today by MOM will be against the backdrop in the minds of the jurors. That backdrop? That gz is a LIAR.

  3. jodiwankanobi says:

    what time is it starting today?

    anyone seen the animation?

  4. whonoze says:

    Yo, early birds. The WFTV feed is up [for all of you who can’t get enough of Bill’s commentary 🙂 — actually he just opined that Rachel was a believable witness]. And WFTV has just reported that MOM has brought a slab of concrete into the courtroom. MOM is supposed to start at 8:30AM EDT.

    • jodiwankanobi says:

      thanks i just saw that..i wonder whose head they are going to repeatedly bash without getting any injuries….

  5. MedicineBear says:

    For those interested in the astrology of this case, here is Alex Miller’s excellent analysis of the Trayvon Martin murder (this analysis was done in April 2012):


  6. KateW says:

    ….how would the jury know what they were if the prosecution being so vague.

    Pardon my errors. Typing too fast.

  7. KateW says:

    I have to say Bernie was serious and entertaining at the same time. The one thing I was concerned about is that he did not present all the evidence during the trial. I felt, how would the jury know what they were point out by the prosecution being so vague. Folks have voiced concern over his close presentation. I was pretty pleased with it overall. Then I thought about it, maybe people have very valid concerns about the way he presented the evidence. It wasn’t as uniform or organized as some would have hoped. However, I really thought about his presentation and I get it. He hit a lot of the key points, point things out. What he was not trying to do is spoon feed the jury as if they were to “simple” to understand what he was trying to say. He kept saying “you decide” and that bothered me a little until I really thought about it. He was telling them he did not want to go by his word alone. I do believe in the 2nd half of his presentation he said,
    “In terms of how you decide, and we talked briefly about that. The evidence introduced…. (inaudible) should only be decided based on the evidence alone. WHAT THE LAWYERS SAY IS NOT EVIDENCE AND YOU ARE NOT TO CONSIDER IT AS SUCH. Why do we have such rules?”
    Powerpoint lists
    -Because this is a court of law not a popularity contest
    -The same law that guarantees right to fair trial by jury
    -Law is supposed to equally protect everyone
    -Defendant has no right to be JUDGE, JURY and EXECUTIONER

    Bernie hit on the key points he wanted them to catch for themselves instead of him spoon feeding them. Lines such as “did you catch that” and at times elaborating and sometimes not. He would also say “it speaks for itself”. Some things did not need to be spelled out letter by letter. Just as he said many of them took detailed notes, some did not, but ultimately they will have to go back there and look at all the evidence and weigh everything and he would not be back there to hold their hand. If he pointed things out and got them to think about it themselves then they would see it on their own. The wheels and cogs would spin and they would decide.

    • KateW says:

      ….how would the jury know what they were if the prosecution being so vague.

      Pardon my errors. Typing too fast.

      There were also things he pointed out that I forgot about and one of those things was the scratched on the top of his head. He said, which made me laugh, shows the picture of the top of his head and says “How did he get those scratches on the top of his head? Did they turn him upside down on the concrete or pick the concrete up over his head.” I still laugh when I hear think of it.

      Anyway, my point is he did not have to spoon feed them the info. Another phrase he would use is “You’ve already heard this.” The point is not to get them bogged down with so much information they forget what you had pointed out. Highlighting items, circling pictures, bullet points allow the jury to focus on those elements that speak to the, as Bernie would call it, the “TRUTH”.

  8. disappointed says:

    When it comes to self defense and to be honest this is the hurdle, a person who carries a concealed weapon should have a higher standard. Trayvon never had a chance the way Florida uses the law. I always thought it was force for force. How does a fist fight or a wrestling match switch to a gun fight? Why is Fogen allowed to pull a gun when he never fought. No wounds to his hands, no scratches to Trayvon. Why would he not be clawing Trayvon to remove his heads from his mouth? Because it did not happen. I think the gun came out and Good assumed MMA but I think Trayvon held his arms down so he would not get shot. The punch to the nose probably came last and then the shot.
    People who do not carry in Florida should fear for their lives. I hope they do the right thing. I hope Mr Guy talks about the fear Trayvon felt that night. BDLR and MOM will talk about Fogen during closing someone needs to speak for Trayvon. Let these women think of Trayvon as their child like we all do.

  9. Dee says:

    And I think MOM getting on that doll, made a fool out of himself. When he began to hit the doll head on the side walk as hard a he was going it. Anybody with common sense knows if someone head was hitting the side walk as hard as he was doing it. They would have had been much more serious injuries then just too small cuts on his head. And he wouldn’t have been able to even get up.

    MOM showed this to the jury, and even the witness said at first that Zimmerman head couldn’t have been hit like that against the sidewalk like that, then MOM had to begin to coach him into what he
    wanted him to say. Simply, because the injuries don’t make that kind of attack look realistic to the injuries on Zimmerman head. This was not what happened to his head, even if it happened there at all.

    Zimmerman hair was cut short for a reason, since we all can tell that he is not accustomed to wearing his hair that short. He may have reopened these injuries doing the shuffle, but if he didn’t have them before, he is self-inflicted these wounds to himself using the butt of his own gun. However, they did not take a DNA of the clip that was in the gun, so we may never know that as

    Nevertheless, what I feel that he knew this young kid didn’t have a gun, he had to make it look as though he was being attack. People have gone as far as shooting themselves to get out of killing someone, so this is not so un common.

  10. Jun says:

    Okay I finally watched the closing

    I think Bernie’s job, since he is good at crossing people and exposing people for who they are, was to simply knock out Fogen’s argument, which I felt he did

    He basically made Fogen’s story preposterous and ridiculous

    And his points were simple, direct, and make sense opposed to Fogen’s claims to cover up his crime

    I can understand some of Bernie’s anger points because who, people that are normal, would not be angered that this even occurred

    Mantai and Guy will close in the end

    Mantai is a good person to explain everything in a simple format, especially the forensics, the tiny scratches that bled a little on Fogen and the blood directionality, the ballistics, the witness statements

    Guy has that genuineness to humanize the incident and show the ruthlessness and callousness of Fogen and show the compassion for Trayvon

    I feel it’s a good strategy because the state slowly chipped away at Fogen and then waited for the final moment to lay the Bruce Lee kick and leave them with nothing really

    I doubt Fogen will be able explain the random teleportations in Fogen’s story or stories and West and Omara are both dunces who only know how to whine

    The Fogen KKKlan look like they realized they have been exposed as scam artists and liars and I hope someone uppercuts his pops LOL

    • Dee says:

      I agree, and to even see Zimmerman shacking his head is not going to set well with the jury. Because they will feel if the prosecution is so wrong, why didn’t he just get up and tell the jury what happened. How can Zimmerman shake his head at his own testimony.

      The prosecution was using his words against him, just as he was on the stand. I think that was the best way they could have ever got the jury to understanding Zimmerman own testimony. So for him to shake his head was not good for him to do at all. Especially since he did want to testify.

      • riisey007 says:

        Dee, that is what Nancy Grace said last night. he said if he was so opposed to what the prosecution has been saying then he should have testified. She also said she would have charged him with 1st degree murder from the beginning. She had a defense attorney on last night that said, Zimmerman should have testified on his own behalf because this is a self defense trial with the other person dead and with the DNA issue, he really needed to let the jury know what happened. He also said in response to Frank Taffe that Zimmermans interviews with the police did not have the benefit of cross examination. the point of him testifying is to come off believable even after cross examination. He and his family are just acting for the cameras. I look through twitter photos of the father bent over in sitting in court and Zimmermans mom comforting him, they need to stop trying to get attention. O’mara probably told them to look overly concerned and pitiful so that they could get more money online and so that people would be talking about their poor souls.

    • riisey007 says:

      I really though Zimmerman was gonna come unglued and start spewing racial epitaph at the prosecution. I am telling you West and O’mara did not put him on the stand because they know he is guilty and they know he has anger issues, The same reason why they did not use Taffe as a witness for George and the 911 call. I really would love an outburst from Zimmerman, It almost seemed like Bernie was trying to get a reaction out of him, like Bernie was saying jump up and come choke me Georgie. I hope Guy gets his goat today too. Damn O’mara for controlling Zimmermans meds.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Basically Omar is saying that Trayvon should have been so happy to learn that someone was following him in the dark and the rain, that he should have rushed home to tell Chad. Of course, the fact that gz was armed and therefore dangerous should have meant nothing at all to Trayvon. Nor should the jury consider gz’s time spent at the fighting gym, because he learned nothing about self defense and even if he did, he was too out of shape to use any of it.

      Obviously gz doesn’t have to inform criminal suspects he chooses to follow, anything at all about his own actions and motives. Because it is completely legal for him to chase suspects, in the dark rain, with his firearm. Oh yes, and shoot people armed with sidewalks.

      The jurors were taking furious notes during Omar’s closing, but as a general rule, you take more notes when you don’t believe someone than you do when listening to someone you believe.

      I think these women will weigh what Omar says against what they would do themselves if followed. Would they rush to get home to an empty house, without knowing if their follower is still watching? Of course they would call the police and attempt to hide as best they could, but this is a teenager being discussed.

  11. riisey007 says:

    Felt I needed to share this young mans story, of course all of us have always been in agreement that just because teenagers don’t make all the right decisions that does not mean they won’t make something of their lives. Martin had dreams and aspirations, Zimmerman has children and he sits up there with no thoughts as to what if it were his child.

  12. whonoze says:

    Does anybody know WTF Bernie was getting at about TM’s photo-button pulling the garments away from his body? That was just f-ing bizarre…

    • ay2z says:

      Might be one of his let the jury figure it out, moments. Jurors apparently like to solve puzzles, and they do have testimony about the button that Trayvon always wore, they heard from the killer himself, that he noticed ‘he has a button on his shirt’ from the NEN description, and testimony about the button position, and testimony about the button covering the bullet hole. Andthe testimony that the bullet fragments were found as well as the casing, on the ground. The fragments caused by possibly hitting something.

      How do you fire a gunat contact with the fabric under neath the button? Just where the killer puts it– question is, how that happened. Hope they can figure it out.

      • Dave says:

        Only the cartridge case was found on the ground. The bullet’s copper-alloy jacket separated from the lead core and fragmented inside Trayvon’s chest but all the pieces remained there until the autopsy.

    • groans says:

      He got sidetracked and never made a point. I’m also concerned about all the things he said he’d “talk about later” but didn’t.

      I do want to say too, though (before fly out of state), trial lawyers have INCREDIBLY high skill sets and levels. What they have done during the past several weeks is unbelievably difficult – they have thousands of facts and hundreds of issues bouncing around in their heads (more than the ones that we’ve been discussing for over a year, now), and they have to be able to retrieve them all and match them up to each other at the snap of a finger, AND verbalize it all to others – some of whom are legal experts and some of whom have heard none of this sort of thing before.

      There are very few lines of work that I can think of that require anywhere near the breadth and height of skills. All of them will make some goofs, but what’s hard for most people to see is the amazing skills trial lawyers possess. Because, like athletes and ballet dancers, they’re so good that they make it look easy. And they’re so precise that any little error stands out more than their extreme competence.

      A salute Bernie and his team! Godspeed.

    • Dee says:

      He was saying that the weight of the button could have pulled the shirt away from the body. I truly believe that after that initial exposure of Zimmerman gun. Trayvon seen that he was going for his gun and tackled him to the ground in hope that he could stop Zimmerman from shooting him. Trayon hallowed ”get off of me” as Rachel said that he did. Once Trayvon got away from Zimmerman screaming for his life. Zimmerman caught him by his shirt swinging him to the ground, then Zimmerman while still holding Trayvon shirt in his hand got over him and shot him. This is why Trayvon shirt was pulled away from his body.

  13. smokeegyrl says:

    They started a Black Out movement on profile pictures in support of Trayvon which has caught the eye of Benjamin Crump on Twitter. It has gone viral on Facebook and starting on Twitter and other social media sites.

    Benjamin Crump, Esq. ‏@attorneycrump 1h
    I am moved by the #BlackOut movement on social media profiles for #TrayvonMartin. I stand with you all on today.

  14. operacarla says:

    Sanford is the city that ran Jackie Robinson out of town during spring training in 1946, as he began his bid to break Major League baseball’s race barrier

  15. gbrbsbblogs says:

    Dont know if anyones interested in transcripts of the trial and the proceedings, and although the last one posted via email, which is the only way I can post at this time as I can’t post on the page due to problems I am having posting on the blog, and my not being able to contact the professor so he can approve my comments or fish me out of spam where they may have gone so I can post normally, here is a link (TL) to the graphics used in Bernies closing:


    • aussie says:

      Guys, first thing to try in such cases is log out of WordPress and clear your cookies. Then give it a minute before logging back in. If you normally overtype the name (eg Fred you are masonblue as far as WP is concerned) then DON”T, just let it show the default. gbrbsbblogs that’s not what you normally post with, either. Every time you put a different name it dumps you into moderation. But the full registered name is one step more authenticated so less likely to cause problems.

      Thanks heaps for the transcripts, my internet’s been so slow I get things on “live” stream 10 minutes after others have already commented on them.

      • gbrbsbblogs says:

        Thnx for the tips, but after a week in purgatory trying everything from: re-booting several times; clearing cookies, cache and the rest several times; taking the system and software back two weeks through Time Machine (I use mac); setting myself up with a new email and WP account under this new ID and joining again; trying a yahoo email instead of gmail; contacting my internet provider to ask if there had been a change on their systems (zilch); borrowing a pc to try; setting up an old mac of mine to try; contacting WP support; contacting Akisment several times; please forgive me if I sound a bit rude when I say: DONE THAT BEEN THERE GOT THE T-SHIRT! 😉 🙂

        By the way, in case like Xena you think it could be important, I never shut down my mac except in an emergency and I only rebooted after several days of this problem not before.

        And exactly the same was happening with my posts at both Xena’s and whonoze’s blogs. In Xena’s I had to join, and my first post was sent straight to spam (not moderation) but she fished me out and I have been posting there ever since. Whonoze didn’t find me in spam but on his admin page, all “approved” just not publishing on the page. That too is fixed and I have been posting there ever since, but I have no idea what he did because he never replied to me after saying he didn’t think he could do anything, so I don’t know he did something, just presume he must have.

        Now for the really strange things. During my purgatory many days I was able to post successfully here, whether with a new thread or replying to a poster, during the wee hours of the morning (UK time). Believing the problem solved, I would leave the computer as was and go to bed, but when trying to post later, ZILCH again. Another curiosity was I could post most of the time if through a reply to me from another blogger, but ONLY via the reply button on the notifications bar or page, never from the blog page.

        Lastly, this ID has been a godsend because I set up a new email and can have all posts and comments delivered there. It did go to moderation but was soon approved and started working but after just a couple of posts it too suddenly went haywire the same as the other. However, as I am one to try everything, because if not anything else I am very tenacious, having the posts and comments in an email I decided to try posting directly from there and as if by magic, more often than not, albeit not always, I am able to comment from there only, but I can’t read the comments properly there because they come in lots of 2 to 100 and collapsible at that so having never done it before I find it really taxing trying to follow them and I lose track.

        Thanks again aussie for your advice, and sorry for this long post albeit I can refer professor should it help him sort me out, ‘cos I’m ever-so lonely not being with y’all and because whonoze and Xena got me back to the fold on their blogs, now he’s made contact and realises my plight, I am hoping desperately he will to!

      • gbrbsbblogs says:

        I just posted you a reply, from on the page, but it seems to have slotted in out of place, so please look for it somewhere below your comment as you may be able to help me.

        Once you read it you will understand what I mean when I say that because I am so so dogged, before trying to post via email, I first tried to post from the blog, and it worked, but if you read my long reply you will see that there have often been a few hours a day I can post from there, usually in the wee hours, and not all the time, so when I went to reply to your post with this from the blog it didn’t work again.

        I am now replying through the notification bar hoping it works, if not I’ll have to find your comment in a pile of combined emails and try to send it from there.

        Ugh Grrrrrrrrrrr I HATE WORDPRESS !!!!!!!

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Ah, you beat me to it. I felt compelled to check out TalkLeft before I went to sleep and was glad to find that Jeralyn made herself useful with the slideshow of BDLRs powerpoints (usually I just end up feeling aggravated with her). The powerpoints were aired so briefly during the hearing that it was hard to keep up and read many of them. I just came back to post the link!

      You should be able to contact the prof in various ways. He goes by masonblue on Twitter and his e-mail is posted on the page or in a profile somwhere on WordPress. You can also google his name or handle and probably come up with a contact.

      • gbrbsbblogs says:

        Ok tstas…. Na, na, na na, na! 😉

        Thanks for info but professor posted me today and I think is on the job of trying to bring me back to the fold!

        This may or may not post. If it does, it is only because you have replied to one of the few posts I managed to get to publish today ! All very strange happenings with my posts… maybe the US is cutting ties with the UK

  16. gbrbsbblogs says:

    Don’t know if anyone’s interested in transcripts of the trial and the proceedings, and I don’t know if I can post anyway due to the problems I am having for unknown reasons posting on the blog, and my not being able to contact the professor so he can approve my comments or fish me out of spam where they may have gone, here is a link to CNN that has many and especially Bernie’s closing:


    • I also have been having problems connecting with the site. I recall that about 1 week ago, the software held up several of your comments in the Pending folder. I approved them. Since then. I haven’t seen any comments from you.

      • gbrbsbblogs says:

        Ahhhh, professor! Am I glad to see your fonts!

        Firstly, please don’t think with this reply I can post normally. I rarely can post on the actual blog. I can sometimes do so in reply to another from the notifications page, and now I have this new ID I can sometimes post via email, but no system always works.

        Since Monday I am unable to post here. I have been even worried you had banned me but I couldn’t think of anything I’d done that could merit it… apart from being my always contrary and cantankerous self!

        I have been desperately trying to contact you so please forgive me if I have been a nuisance in any way, but I so wanted to get back with fellow bloggers who I have known for some time now, and share with them the end of the trial, I literally tried everything I could think of to draw your attention to my plight.

        Exactly the same was happening to my posts at whonoze’s and Xena’s blogs, but they both have now fixed it and I can post on their sites perfectly. Xena fished me out of spam because I had to join and my first post went straight into spam (not moderation), but with whonoze my posts were on his admin page all approved, just not appearing on the blog page. I don’t know what he did to get me back but we could ask him.

        A couple of post down I posted a full account of all this to Aussie which you can read if you need more info a (I will re-post it to you if you need it here) so you may see what the problem is and hopefully find a way to getting me back.

  17. aussie says:

    I like it that all the jurors are white. And all one gender.

    Racism is off the deliberation table. If only some support the prosecution side,. the others can’t dismiss that with “you’re only saying that because you’re black” They’ll have to listen to the actual argument.

    Nobody can say ” I know better ‘cos I am a MAN” Nobody will equate supposed knowledge with their rank of level in their job,either.

    Nobody can say “you’re only saying that because you’re a woman” (illogical dumb or ignorant of technical facts, as well all know 😉 )

    No sexism, no race. Six women, 5 of them mothers, over a dozen children of all ages between them. Half working in fields involving looking after other people, so you can expect they have empathy..

    All keen to get back to their families. A good time to remember, what if they’re NOT THERE to go back to? forever?

    SO : Was it self-defence? if yes, let him go.
    If not, was it murder or manslaughter?

    I’d say 4 have made up their minds already. One hasn’t, because she’s an approval seeker; she’ll go along with the majority, once a few “reasons” are explained to her. The last one? I wish I knew.

    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      @ Aussie, which one do you think is an approval seeker? And which one is the one u do not know?

      • aussie says:

        My impressions from back then, Granny. I’ll look at them closer again before they start deliberations. I can’t recall their numbers. I know the one who said he was out “very late” people were worried about. I’m not. She got that from half-hearing things. To me that’s someone who accepts what she hears, without bothering to look much deeper. Now she’s had the chance to hear FACTS, she’ll accept those. And not feel bad “backing down” because she’s also seen the browbeating repetitious process by which she was made to hear the wrong info originally.

        There’s one they’ve several times said stares into space, doesn’t take notes. I wish I could see for myself. Is she half asleep? or listening? some people are visual, they’ll listen and make a mental movie of what they hear. If she’s like that, she’s okay. If she’s just not paying attention, she won’t have much to argue with against the others.

        • MrSykes says:

          She’s the one with the 6 kids, some of them teens. She’s probably in deep reflection wondering about whether it could have been any of them. One twitter comment described her demeanor as “sad” throughout the closing argument. I hope I am right.

        • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

          My baby daughter does that. She seems to be staring into space when someone is talking to her, but trust me, she hears every word being said and will repeat what you said word for word and not miss one word. She is also good at multitasking and still keeping up with whatever the conversation is and whatever is going on around her. It might appear that she is not paying any attention, but trust me she does not miss a beat. She is able to focus on more than one thing at a time and remain alert.

          I pray that this woman is like my daughter.

          • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

            I don’t know how she does it, but she does it with ease. My daughter also is a quick study. Every job she has ever had, she always moves up the promotional faster than the average person because of her abilities.

          • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

            *promotional ladder*

        • Jun says:

          I think the out late lady realizes its only 7 and at the end of the day, he was an innocent kid with skittles and ice tea running away

          I dont feel she could justify the killing and I feel she realizes the defense lied to her and one thing you dont do is lie to a female LOL

          Perhaps she said that out of concern because she believes Fogen is dangerous and does not feel kids should walk around while Fogens are around

  18. smokeegyrl says:

    Remember when Bernie brought up the address… that was a video I did back in May of 2013. Go… Bernie.. hoping they had seen this video… mentioned the same location. *smiling*

    • KateW says:

      lol and you can see, as they are walking towards the sidewalk, he looked at the houses to the right and said rohh roohhhh. But you know the SPD tried to cover up his crime and allow him to get away with murder. I find it hard to believe they were that incompetent because in the interrogation they brought up so many valid points and they knew his narratives were inconsistent.

      You are very observant smokeegyrl! I am sure Bernie did some research to see what others were saying about the evidence.

    • aussie says:

      May I nitpick here please? again???

      This is ONE point on which GZ is correct.

      Address = street name + house number.

      On the corner which we all know as the east bend on TTL, there is a house (Jeremy’s) with a very visible number. But he’s forgotten the name of that street. So that is only half an address

      The houses to the left he KNOWS are on RVC but it’s the back of the houses with no numbers. So also only half an address.

      His plan is to go through to the other curve on RVC (which he knows without a a sign because it is his street) and find a number there, to get
      number+street = address.

      So the highly visible number on Jeremy’s house does not prove he’s lying. Even forgetting the name of TTL for a moment doesn’t prove it. But he could have gone to the first known-RVC house to the left and looked at that. No need to go much further to the other side.

      The BS part of the story is he never gave the address to Sean and it was an address no action of interest to Sean was happening at, even the truck wasn’t parked there. So it was all an excuse to go on the top path to look down the T to see if Trayvon was there. And keep going down RVC to “cut him off at the pass” (as he started to draw on the map for Singleton, before quickly turning the line back towards the T).

      (Running noise)
      Are you following him?
      We don’t need you to do that
      more running noise.
      noise stops

      But even after that he continued to follow. Proven by LOCATION OF THE BODY — 41 feet away in a place he never said he went to on any excuse. Body and dropped flashlight. GZ GOING DOWN THERE is the only way he could have got there. So, claims wasn’t following because he’s lost him. Okay, Ill buy that. In that case he was HUNTING. Looking for him. Seeking him out.

      • groans says:

        @ Aussie, re:

        On the corner which we all know as the east bend on TTL, there is a house (Jeremy’s) with a very visible number. But he’s forgotten the name of that street. So that is only half an address

        Yes, Aussie. That made me cringe, too, when Bernie argued that a couple/few times during closing, too.

        I also didn’t find it condemning that CAC knew the street name the next day during the reenactment. As a juror, I would think it would be natural that the guy would learn it after he left the police station and that it might forever be etched in his mind thereafter. (That’s not what I think as a member of Team Trayvon … but jurors should not be a member of any “team,” so they could reasonably view it that way.)

      • Malisha says:

        The police have google maps and google STREET views.
        This whole thing is a pickle in a red herring on a pterodactyl. But what do I know?

    • riisey007 says:

      Catchy tune, I can get jiggy with this. lol

  19. Woow! says:

    Has anyone noticed that W and MOM never have case law to back any of their arguments and if they do it is never on point. What the heck are their law clerks doing, scanning blogs?

    • Sophia33 says:

      I have noticed that and wondered the exact same thing that you have.

    • cielo62 says:

      Woow!~ BINGO! Straight from the Outhouse to teh courtroom floor!


    • KateW says:

      Because they are too busy whining they don’t have enough time, they don’t have this or they don’t have enough that. They had over a year and a half to prepare. Instead of doing interviews or celebrating they “beat stupid” with ice cream social parties they should have been on their business. They do more whining and West does more arguing and shows more contempt for the judge than anything else. I agree with your assessment and I would add that they look like they are “winging it”. I know attorney’s get busy but you don’t hear a lot of them whining. This is the nature of the beast and I believe they underestimated the prosecution’s close because on Anderson Cooper 360 on Wednesday, again with the interviews, OMara stated the state would probably try to gain sympathy for Martin because he was a young man and something else he heard in court. That told me he thought they had nothing as to the meager show the prosecution put on during trial. That is why they asked for an acquittal because like many of us a little disappointed with the prosecution’s showing during court, we thought they were lacking a lot of information.

      What he didn’t know, what we didn’t know, was that they would bring out the big guns like video, audio, maps, timelines, witness testimony, some information about what they needed to show to prove murder 2 according to the law and they did that, he brought in that photo the defense kept parading before the court and De La Rionda used it to his advantage, they used the model the defense brought out and used the defendant’s friend’s own words against him, De La Rionda did not sugar coat anything, he was real, he was raw, he showed compassion, he was reasonable and practical. He talked to the jury instead of at them. He was like a professor who was not only seeking justice for the victim but teaching and building the evidence brick by brick. Perhaps if they focused more on their “high profile case” they wouldn’t be so ill prepared.

  20. Sophia33 says:

    Burning some cyber sage to cleanse this site and only call in positive energy.

  21. Endless Summer says:

    Just wanted to leave a quick comment regarding a lot of the internet chatter about this case (and I am repeating myself from the other day, so please forgive me). Rumors of riot threats or other unrest are just that–rumors. There is an organized effort from sites like Breitbart, Red State and the Treehouse to foment controversy. They like to use sock puppets on Facebook, Twitter and other social media to try to plant false narratives or to control the narrative and sway public opinion. Some of these operatives have hundreds of twitter and facebook accounts. They think if they use an avatar with a picture of a black person that they have everyone fooled. They also freep polls, so don’t be too concerned about the results of any online polls.

    As for Infowars, Alex Jones makes his living by trying to scare people to death, and he never met a conspiracy theory he couldn’t embrace. Most people don’t consider him a credible news source. He is, if nothing else, a gifted spin-master.

    I feel certain that whatever the outcome, most folks are going to follow Sybrina and Tracy’s lead, take the high road, and conduct themselves with grace and dignity.

    • KateW says:

      Excellent post.

      Well my lovelies, I am off the air for the night. I pray that you all remain safe and get a good nights rest. May the wheels of justice continue to press on for the victims in this world. I sleep well knowing there are those out there that continue to fight the “good” fight with stead fast dedication and determination for those victims who no longer have a voice, and for the families, friends and strangers determined to get them justice.

  22. fauxmccoy says:

    i will be honest. i would love manslaughter at this point. i had hoped for better.

    i heart BDLR and team, but if this is what passes for formal logic and debate in the state of florida, then god help them all — they in fact have the government they deserve.

    if you have taken a semester or more of formal argument and debate or logic and critical thinking, you would have to questions the soundness of the prosecution’s argument, legally. does anyone really think this was more than calling the defendant’s credibility in question and a plea to emotions? logically, significantly more must be accomplished. i am skeptical, but it ain’t over till the fat lady sings.

    if i were black and lived there, i would not even wait for a verdict before i moved. if i were so poor that i had to give my 2 week notice at work, stiff my landlord and put my family and whatever else i could fit in my car, i would do so to get the hell out, moving in a northern direction. just as people come here illegally from latin america, i would do any fucking thing i could to better the lives of my family members and i would not care too much about fall out. that’s me.

    • Sophia33 says:

      I agree with you faux about the manslaughter.

    • aussie says:

      How much formal logic has the defence shown? at any time? before or during the case?

      There is assorted forensic and physical evidence of a killing.

      The shooter is claiming self defence. Many times. Many different ways.

      To prove murder, all the State has to do is throw reasonable doubt of that story. All of them. Any of them. Some of them. If his credibility is shot to smithereens, his story of self-defence is not believed, and that just leaves murder or manslaughter.

      Stuff he said before the shooting can be believed because we HAVE IT ON TAPE, thanks to the NEN call he clearly didn’t think was being recorded. That shows ill-will, plus the timelines show he chased/followed Trayvon which is enough to prove he was the aggressor And he’d taken a loaded gun to a fist-fight = ,murder, not manslaughter.

      What more logic does it need? it wasn’t a game of chess. It was a game of catch a n*a punk, with only one willing participant. The other one is dead.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Theoretically, at least, the prosecution is supposed to prove its case and the defense to cast doubt on the case.

        But there’s been nothing normal about this case and I can see why the prosecution took this approach in the closing arguments.

        Bernie’s approach was weird and at first glance, seems to play almost entirely on emotion, but the emotion he provokes does peel away the false logic that the defense promotes and exposes the defendant’s lies. A sort of circular logic, if you will.

        • cielo62 says:

          Two Sides~ I like that he humanized Trayvon. I remember somebody saying that NEEDED to happen. Not as much as I would like, but presented as a very human boy feeling very human fear.


        • fauxmccoy says:

          yes two sides, i think you see what i’m getting at. i am willing to entertain that this was a pre-emptive strategy to discredit the defense and their silly animation before they begin. if it works, great. i’m just saying i am concerned over that specific instruction to the jury.

          • Sophia33 says:

            I think his goal is to discredit the prosecution. I think in rebuttal Guy will say what the prosecutions theory of the case is. Just my two cents.

            But I am glad that manslaughter is on the table.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        as i see it their purpose is two fold

        1. to prove the elements of the crime they charged (M2). one element is stipulated, the defendant shot the victim. second element would be technically proven if self defense is effectively disproved. third element is the depraved mind, ill will etc. component.

        now, the third element is legally not that which many of us here think it to be, that’s about all i can really say. if florida courts have long held the thought that simply holding a gun on someone, much less firing one, meets that element, then the jurors need to know that.

        if that third element is not proved, the correct verdict would be manslaughter.

        what concerns me, specifically, are the jury instructions for self defense. read them. they favor the defendant. if anyone of the 6 jurors think the defendant’s actions were remotely reasonable, then they must acquit.

        that concerns me. lord knows that i understand what you are thinking and consider the defendant guilty as hell. i hope he rots in hell, i hope his life is hell. he deserves no less. simply stating my concerns, based on my experience with jury service and knowing that jury instructions count for a lot.

        • aussie says:

          They will get instructed on the bit about an aggressor’s different rights to self defence. Who was aggressor will be covered in the ill will/ following part. The words”circumstantial evidence” will not be in the instructions, it was specifically covered at the conference (Supreme Court threw it out 30+ years ago, West wanted it back in). We didn’t get to see the full final versions.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            i know. i watched the arguments about instructions closely this morning. i remain concerned but hope for the best. at the very least, jurors are the gate keepers of their communities. if this community wants this as their reputation or is fine with a not guilty verdict, then as i said, god help them all – and i’m agnostic.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            p.s. language for self defense is on the net and easily accessible. i did not hear any proposed or accepted changes to it. the burden is very high for the prosecution based on the standard language.

    • tashatexas77048 says:

      Well clearly this meana you are a Troll. I expressed the same concerns earlier and was attacked by the rabid bunch of idiots with Cielo usually leading the pack. Im sure he’s an ugly, fat ass drama queen that wears hair weave.and rolls his neck, but I digress.
      BDLR did better in the second half but in two hours or more he failed to drive home John Guys essential point and that is e murdered Martin because he wanted to. Time and again we saw that BDLR easily loses his train of thought and honestly is not very meticulous. He called Martin’s headset “that.thingy” and several times said things like “I think” and “if I.recall.correctly.” His slideshow was sloppy and he rushed thru it.

      All I can say is I’m happy that manslaughter is on the table and JN was dead wrong not to allow the 3rd lesser charge that was sought.

      • cielo62 says:

        Tasha- is that what you look like? That massive projection of yours will tell every time. My biggest complaint with YOU is your foul language and inability to actually think before spewing negative comments over everything. If you were banned once , I will request you get banned again, and each time you show your disruptive cancerous mug on here.


        • aussie says:

          Fred said he banned Tasha so there must be two (or more) Tashas here, which might explain why they seem to change position so much.

          • tashatexas77048 says:

            Fred said he banned me? Wouldn’t he know if I had more.than one.IP address and why would I come back with the same name?

            Cielo I’m not.projecting. Im also positive that your breath smells of ass and corn chips. I just have a sixth sense about.these.things.

    • type1juve says:

      Agreed! If I lived in Florida I would get the hell out ASAP. Hell, and I thought Texas was bad.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        @type1 — i hear ya. what would be your incentive to stay? i see none. yes, it’s hard to move if you are poor. i know. i’d still manage it somehow. head north and keep moving. massachusetts or bust i reckon.

      • ladystclaire says:

        You and me both type1juvie. I wouldn’t step one foot in that state for nothing or nobody. every last one of those witnesses for the state, really showed their racist hate and, that’s the truth. why even officer Singleton had her racist ass up on her shoulders. this is so unbelievable to see even someone in LE acting in such a manner, as this woman did.

        I hope nothing good ever come to those people, who lied for their POS of a friend. they proved what I’ve been saying all along, these people DID NOT want AA living in their precious neighborhood and, what better way to get them out, harass them even to the point of following them home (FOGEN) or, accuse them of stealing.

        Why didn’t we get to see what was being kept under seal concerning things that Fogen said, that would have gone against him before the trial? information was gleaned from the wrong phone, while that fat bastard just sat there acting as though he had a right to invade this kid’s private life, while his is being protected by the state as well as the defense. how unfair is that?

    • whonoze says:


      Having taken more than a few classes in argumentation back in my undergrad days, and having taught argumentation skills at several points in my academic career, I agree that the Bernie’s closing argument was rhetorically mediocre at best.

      I have to wonder why such a hot-shot prosecutor doesn’t bring a better argument One thought — and it would be a sad comment on the judicial system if true — is that Bernie knows what works with juries, and that bluster actually trumps sound argumentation in practice. But then I have to wonder if Bernie has built up his impressive trial record by bull-dozing 3-time-loser skells represented by over-worked and sleep-deprived public defenders.

      Having traveled through Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina and Virginia, I can’t say I’d advise any black Floridians to head North unless they keep going and sneak into Canada. They might have better luck grabbing a boat from one of the baseball players defecting from Cuba and heading toward Havana.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        @whonoze — havana or candad sound fine as well. i just figured that the east/west option was limited by land mass so i’d head north first and work on it from there. the important thing would be getting out. i have spent plenty of time in the region myself. as my extended family is rapidly aging, i don’t see too many more obligatory visits, which is fine with me.

        you said

        One thought — and it would be a sad comment on the judicial system if true — is that Bernie knows what works with juries, and that bluster actually trumps sound argumentation in practice.

        that was precisely what i was thinking which lead me too beg ‘god, help them, all’ and mean it. as an agnostic, that is something.

        thanks man, i appreciate your opinions.

    • groans says:

      Fauxmccoy – Thank you for your realistic input. I share your concerns, but objectivity is rather hard to come by on this blog lately, unfortunately. You’re one of few here that

      I had hoped for better, too – throughout the trial and including closing. That’s not to say there weren’t great points made during both, but there have also been many weaknesses.

      As I’ve watched the trial, I can’t help but analogize it to a basketball game with a running score board. During the prosecution’s case in chief, one would expect the prosecution to accumulate a huge lead. After all, they’re presenting THEIR story before the defense has a chance to present its story.

      When the prosecution rested, I didn’t sense any huge lead at all, as one would expect after only one side of the story has been told. Actually, it felt more like a tie.

      Fortunately, the defense’s case was weak – most of it was parading friends and family up to say: “That was definitely Georgie’s voice,” “He’s a soft, fat loser,” and/or “Hey, I know that guy – he’s kinda neat!” That said, I missed Di Maio’s testimony – which was apparently strong, though apparently Bernie scored a few points.

      So at the close of the evidence, it still felt pretty much like a tie (viewing it objectively, rather than with my Team Trayvon uniform on). And that’s worrisome. Even in a civil case, a tie goes to the defendant. In a criminal case we need more than “51%” – we need “beyond a reasonable doubt.”

      MOM will present a strong closing tomorrow. Guy will then have plenty to rebut, as well as strengthen. That’s putting an awful lot of pressure on the last play of the game.

      I would feel more comfortable if the prosecution had split its closing argument time 1 hour / 2 hours. But, then, what do I know about such strategies? Like Dr. Bao: “NOTHING! I HAVE OPINIONS, NOT FACTS!” (OK, that’s an exaggeration, but I SMH every time I think about that guy.)

      • fauxmccoy says:


        ha! ha ha ha ha! on the ‘i am bao’ reference, as well as the parade of friendly opinions on the defendant. you made me laugh and that’s not easy.

        thanks for your input, i do appreciate it. i guess we’ll just see how this goes. i am really wondering though if this is how this SAO normally prosecutes. if so, wow.

        at least we have now seen the second tier characters for real and can have all kinds of fun with bizarre trial references that no one else will appreciate for years to come. i keep hoping to get back to the running commentary we made during the trial. it was impossible to keep current and the email notices were overwhelming. i missed a lot, maybe much of it entirely miss worthy. i tried to document highlights along the way for historical reference as well as my usual nonsense. best memory — the crucifixion of the animation ‘expert’ 🙂 (had i been rooting for the other side, it would be Dr. Shiping Bao, ME. which sounds like a name for a fabulous tv series i’d like to write, now that i think of it. sort of a surreal medical coroner/comedy number. i will add it to the pile of other ‘greats’ i have written such a ‘East Bay CPA’ which go nowhere, but i have fun!)

        what a trial!

        • Malisha says:

          You can tell from the trial that the prosecution did not properly prepare its witnesses. “Why not?” people ask. “Because they didn’t have to put forth an effort. History of the case: Put forth as much effort as you MUST.”

      • Malisha says:

        I actually think the prosecution proved its case because the case is not terribly difficult to prove. The killing part (the biggest part in most murder trials) started off admitted. The depravity was obvious because of the NEN call and the Hannity interview. The only nick in the prosecution’s armor would be self-defense but in view of the very minor injuries, and the lack of DNA on Trayvon Martin’s hands, sleeves, and cuffs, I don’t think self-defense sounds rational at all. Furthermore, if the defense thought they would have a chance with self-defense, why would they have given up their SYG hearing? I think the reason people are doubting and so shaken now is the media have been cheer-leading for the murderer. Let’s clear our heads. It was an imperfect prosecution that pulled its punches from day one until the end, but I think we got him, firmly. I also think JN is wise to the effort to get rid of her before sentencing and I think she will ride the storm and send Fogen’s ass to prison.

        • abbyj1 says:

          Malisha, it was an imperfect prosecution, and they did pull their punches. To their credit, they never got into grandstanding, and that was, IMO, one of their greatest strengths: no media muscle flexing. They just laid low and kept moving.

          JN knew that they were laying in wait for her. One misstep that showed just the scent of a lack of judicial temperament on her part, and the defense would have seized on it. She conducted herself impeccably, even when openly provoked, and the defense would be hard pressed to find grounds to remove her. I couldn’t agree more: she will ride out the storm and kick Fogen’s ass from here to Kingdom Come.

    • abbyj1 says:

      Faux, I still can’t get my head around how the entire SPD worked to wink and nudge to GZ, to let him off. It makes me want to throw up.

      And there was that a-hole, Bill Lee, being interviewed on TV that he knew his team “had done an incredible job” and that their “investigation had been taken away from” them. There WAS NO investigation!

      If that’s the way that fucking community works—all colluding together to free a white guy who executes a black kid—I would do any fucking thing to get my family and myself outta there, if we had to crawl out on the side of the highway with just the clothes on our backs.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        @abbyj — yup. we shall know by the verdict if this is the behavior that sanford and florida wish to be known.

  23. KateW says:

    what’s CAC? I know what fogen means but I am not familiar with that term.

    • aussie says:

      crazy ass cracker – what Rachel (DD) told us Trayvon had called him, when he told her he’s being followed. It was adopted as having been Trayvon’s name for him.

      It is pronounced like a cat hawking up a hairball.

    • Woow! says:

      crazy ass cracker

    • Susan Moore says:

      “creepy assed cracker”

    • aussie says:

      Apologies. Getting tired. CREEPY ass is right, and I believe cracka is the right spelling, not with “er” on the end.

      Still pronounced as cats say it.

      Cats know. Looked like cat scratches on the back of his head that he tried to blame on concrete.

    • Dave says:

      Creepy ass crack

    • abbyj1 says:

      KateW, I hope I have this right. It’s what Trayvon told DeeDee (Rachel) over the phone when GZ was hunting him down: “There’s a creepy-ass cracker following me.” IMO, that surely must be the nicest thing anyone has EVER called GZ.

    • abbyj1 says:

      Wow, everyone had a chance to throw it in! Creepy-Ass Cracker!!! I didn’t see the others’ answers below. GZ never had such a compliment come his way in his lifetime.

  24. Two sides to a story says:

    We already know these well – John Phillips on 50 questions he’d like to ask George Zimmerman


  25. mrsdoubtfire says:

    I have been critical of this prosecution team and BDLR But today he did Trayvon Martin proud. Yes he wandered at times. But he never took his eye off the ball. which was to demonstrate and GO BEHIND the lies of George Zimmerman. That was so necessary. The defense want to gloss over Z ‘s actions that night. BDLR made it clear that Zimmerman was the one who started this whole tragic chain of events and then he escalated a situation into a deadly one. I hope Guy can start where he left off after OS and also cancel out anyting O’Mara does .I hope its enough. But Id settle for manslaughter. Because then legally Z is being held accountable for this young man’s senseless and totally avoidable death. Can you imagine the alternative? Zimmerman cleared by a jury. Zimmerman the poster boy for Government Corruption?. And where would vindication of Zimmerman put Trayvon Martin. Instead of innocent victim he would be viewed by many as a gangsta thug who caused is own death. .And what of te people of Sandford and their PD? Business as usual.

  26. Sophia33 says:

    O.K. You know what?!?!

    If Tasha had to go, then so does Dennis!

    This is what Dennis wrote to Cielo62. Sorry, I don’t know who to make quotes, but this is what Dennis said and I FIND IT UNACCEPTABLE!!!

    I know I am new and this may be overstepping, but again I find this unacceptable to what this site claims it wants to be:

    He said the following to Cielo62

    Dennis says:
    July 11, 2013 at 10:37 pm

    Go fuck yourself. You are gay and that is a crime against nature. I’m tired of the personal attacks from cunts like you. The world would be much better if you washed your mouth out with buckshot.

    Again NOT ACCEPTABLE!!!!

    • Rachael says:

      I just got here, haven’t been following much today but have some so I was going to start at the bottom and work my way up and this is the first thing I see and I say OMG

      I totally agree. That is totally unacceptable!

    • cielo62 says:

      Sophia~ Thank you for saying that. I must admit I have been yanking his chain, but each time he posts on here, he blathers on about conspiracy theories everywhere. Then he gets shouted down by reasonable people with facts and disappears from a few weeks and then comes back. I see his MO hasn’t changed except to add filthy vulgarities to his limited vocabulary.


      • Sophia33 says:

        Then why is he here! I’m sorry, but calling a woman a C^NT should be the end of the line for him.

        • Dennis says:

          Again, I can change my IP and email in 1 minute. Quit acting like you actually know how to do anything with a computer besides looking at porn.

          • Sophia33 says:

            And then we should keep banning those IP addresses too. Every time you show up you should be banned.

            I can understand why porn is the only way you can get some.

          • cielo62 says:

            Dennis~ Don’t need porn as I can get some. Too bad you can’t. That explains the massive projection and hostility. Pure jealousy.


          • Dennis says:


            If I am banned, I will make sure you are. Why are you lowering yourself to my and Cielo’s level?

          • cielo62 says:

            Dennis~ MY level?? LOL! I haven’t called you anything vile and vulgar like a ticked off tween, NOR have I insulted Jews, Christians, gays, women, Muslims or scientists. I’ll take a reprimand, since I am having fun messing with you and your ridiculous notions. But you’re so immature you can’t handle the interchange without cussing and insulting.


          • cielo62 says:

            Dennis~ BTW, how can you “make sure” anyone else gets banned? Are you that powerful?


          • Malisha says:

            Nothing stupider than a woman thinking they know anything about a computer.

            Um … first of all, should be: “Nothing stupider than a woman thinking SHE knowS anything about a computer, but that’s just grammar, not computer science.

          • Malisha says:

            Well now that’s actually interesting. In the form of bragging, Dennis, you are saying that you don’t care about the rules the community may have (and may not, after all, we have not yet heard from Professor Leatherman on this matter) because you will get around them, because you have a superior technological capability than those who claim you are breaking the rules, so you cannot be effectively “banned.”

            “I am superior so I can break the rules and get my own way and because of my superiority if I choose to break the rules I will and I will get AWAY with it and I will find a way to do whatever it is I WANT regardless of the circumstances” is exactly the kind of conduct and the kind of attitude that put Fogen into the defendant’s chair today, that put his parents in the seats behind him where they make mocking faces at the proceedings, and puts many people into conflict with their environments.

      • Dennis says:

        Yanking somebody’s chain and calling them names is completely different. You seem to be a big fan of bullying people and don’t even realize what you are doing.

        A civilized response: “I don’t agree with the article.”

        Uncivilized bully tactic: “You are a conspiracy nut.”

        • cielo62 says:

          Dennis~ We ALL have told you that the articles you cite are baloney as well as being OT. After being TOLD and RETOLD and RETOLD ad nauseum, the only things we can conclude is that 1. you are mentally retarded and dont undertsand what we are saying to you OR 2. you are a conspiracy theorist cult follower. Which one is the truth?

          IF I were to ask, yet again, to STOP posting ANYTHING about ANY conspiracies, would you? I don’t think so. There’s a fine line being civil and being a doormat. I will not be your doormat.


    • elle says:

      Cielo, I am stunned someone would speak to you like that. Every time I think bigotry is dying, someone goes and makes me feel like a naive fool. I do believe someday this insane bigotry will go away, I just really wish that day was today. Keep your chin up.

    • aussie says:

      He’s been here before. We should ignore him and he’ll soon go, he’s as tired of trying to convince us as we are of hearing it. Sometimes he’s ok so it does seem to be a meds issue.

      That said, yes, the item you quoted is way over the top. Perhaps the Professor could remove those posts and warn him,, which I vaguely recall was successful a year ago (maybe someone else, not sure but it works sometimes).

    • Girlp says:

      I agree Sophia that is a personal attack and extremly bigoted.

    • DruDo says:

      I imagine we won’t be seeing Dennis anymore. At least, I would certainly hope not. Things can get a little heated occasionally, but his remarks are way beyond that. They are bigoted, personal attacks on someone here and that should never be allowed.

      • Dennis says:

        I was called named like “conspiracy theorist” and “crazy”. If you don’t like labels, then don’t use them.

        Cielo62 wants to call me names, I have no problem calling them gay.

    • @Sophia

      Totally unacceptable. No one needs that disrespect here.

  27. KA says:

    I have not watched all of Bernie’s closing yet (can’t wait to see the ending), but I have to say, I think the single most important thing to emphasize today was GZ is a liar. Tomorrow’s closing and cartoon by the defense as well as every other thing that will be argued is based on GZ’s word. If that impression in the mind of the jurors is that he is a liar and will skate and dodge truth everytime it is a disadvantage to him, then anything MOM presents is lessened in value.

    I think, as we have seen, John Guy can nail this closing with fact, but really Bernie’s passion and constant reminding of the lies that were told about material issues, automatically watered down the defenses argument that is solely based on, the words of GZ.

    I put myself in their place. If I had a person that I had caught repeatedly in lies tell me a grandiose story, I would have to say, while he was telling it, I would be thinking “yeah right” the entire time thereby missing any important “fact” they were trying to tell me.

    I think the strategy was perfect to get every juror in that room thinking “yeah, right…what about THIS) as MOM drones away with the words of someone now considered a liar.

    • Malisha says:

      Liar Liar actually IS the major issue for the jury, I think. The reason I think this is that only Fogen’s words attribute any kind of aggressive behavior to Trayvon Martin. There is no doubt at all that it was at least manslaughter and much more likely murder-2 unless Trayvon Martin made an unprovoked attack against Fogen, and if Fogen’s word is the only word that says Martin did so, there’s really no reason to think that happened. None. No reasonable person would think it for a minute.

      In this respect BDLR’s closing was a stroke of genius. Everybody leaves SOMETHING out; I leave things out of lectures and presentations I have given a dozen times before, it’s inevitable. But the gist is: Only two people know what happened; one is dead and the other is a LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR. (married to a perjuror)

  28. My Forehead Tho says:

    I think we’ve got to preview the defenses closing throughout the trial. MO’M:

    1. Explains that Trayvon was acting suspicious, looking through windows, which justified Fogen’s suspicion of him

    2. Explains when Trayvon ran, Fogen only followed the directions of NEN operator when he followed Trayvon.

    3. Explains why the address in front of Fogen’s face was invisible due to the plant in front of it. Thus forcing him to walk in the direction that Trayvon ran.

    4. Explains that when Fogen was walking back to his truck, Trayvon approached him with 1974 gangster movie lines.

    5. Explains why Rachel isn’t reliable and is a liar- brings up the fact that she lied about her age, why she didn’t go to the funeral, and writing the letter in cursive that she couldn’t read (though she really said her friend helped her write the letter).

    6. Reminds the jury of how soft and non-confrontational Fogen was

    7, Explains how with Trayvon in front of him, Fogen went to call 911 to give his location. Reminds the jury he said he’d call and tell them where he’s at in his NEN call.

    8. Explains how Trayvon suckered punched Fogen and began to slam his head repeatedly into to concrete and punched him repeatedly.

    *Plays animation*

    9. Explains how they teleported to the spot where Trayvon died, and where Fogen began to scream for help

    10. Reminds the jurors of witnesses who saw Trayvon mounting and beating Fogen.

    11. Explains how Fogen made the decision to take a life to save his own.

    12. Explains how after being shot, Trayvon didn’t cooperate and why Fogen sat on him and spread his arms apart to check for weapons.

    13. Explains how after Fogen got off Trayvon, Trayvon put his arms under his body, reminding the jurors of Di Mios testimony of somebody being able to move with no heart

    14 Explains how all of Fogens inconsistencies and lies can be attributed to the fact that he was stunned and couldn’t remember the whole story until 72 hours later. Cites Root’s testimony

    11. Explains that the lack of DNA on Trayvon’s hands and hoodie cuffs can be attributed to the rain and bacteria.

    12. Tells the jury how this is all Crump’s fault

    13. Explains that following isn’t illegal but beating a man to death is

    14. Reminds the jury of how ridiculous it is for the trial to even exist, and reminds them of why the police didn’t charge Fogen in the beginning.

    15. Tells the jury about the State’s sneaky plan to trick them into choosing manslaughter and how smart they are not to fall for it.

    14. Rest.

  29. ay2z says:

    Here’s tonight’s Hardball.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Thx, AY2Z.

    • Woow! says:

      So what does former Judge Garcia mean that JN should have allowed the special jury instruction W wanted? W was wrong in wanting the instruction to read in a way that was not true.

      Garcia should not make such comment. He will give the defense team ideas they do not need.

  30. Jun says:

    Remember Surdyka’s testimony that

    a) Fogen was on top of Trayvon

    b) Trayvon was screaming and yelping

    c) Fogen shot Trayvon and was on top of Trayvon when he shot the boy

  31. Susan Moore says:

    I think Bernie did a very good job pointing out so many key lies. IMO, the most important facts have to do with the gun and the gun shot:

    1) Today, he pointed out that it would have been impossible for TM to see the gun and reach for it, and for GZ to reach for his gun, while GZ was on his back.

    2) Tomorrow, I am really hoping the state proposes the possibility of Z getting his injuries from the gun recoil, and a shell casing. All the evidence is there to reach this “common sense” determination. And it certainly suggests that TM never even punched GZ. If the state does that, I will forgive them for making me wait so long to hear it, and I will love to see the state do so when the defense has no more time to dispute it.

  32. crazy1946 says:

    Dennis?, might I suggest you review the portion of the trial where Judge Nelson asked the defendant those questions, and then if the truth is not obvious to you come back and ask the question again…. Just curious, to whom are you referring when you say the haters will hate anyway?

    • Dennis says:

      I posted an article the other day from Infowars about rioting if Fogen is acquitted. I was personally attacked for posting the article, even though there are hundreds of tweets and facebook posts from African-Americans expressing desire to kill Fogen or riot/loot if he is convicted. They said I was full of shit, even though the evidence is right in front of their eyes. I don’t listen to the mass-media networks run by the Illuminati and Jews, no offense to people of the Hebrew descent or followers of Judaism.

      • Malisha says:

        Huh? (Or, in the Aramaic and “street Hebrew,” Chuhh?)
        Those folks who desire to riot/loot if Fogen is convicted need to go back to the drawing board, or check with their neighborhood Jews, just to make sure the plot thickens properly.

        • Malisha says:

          (No offense to the descendants of the Barbarians or the followers of Jesus of Nazareth.)

          • Dennis says:

            I don’t think we need to go there. We all know who murdered Jesus.

          • cielo62 says:

            Dennis~ Himself? ALA The Passover Conspiracy?


          • Malisha says:

            Well, Dennis, according to the kids I went to school with in small town New Jersey, I actually murdered Jesus. At the time I had no idea what they were talking about but later it was explained to me that I had done it and then suffered from racial amnesia. It happens to people who are over 1900 years old and who ate unleavened bread made with the blood of murdered babies. But to date, because of a massive cover-up, I have not been charged.

          • Susan Moore says:

            Dennis, why say “no offense” when you make plainly offensive comments? Why not go back to Infowars and Stormfront where such comments can be appreciated.

          • cielo62 says:

            Susan~ Thank you. Even though I am NOT a christian NOR a Jew, I found that post in poor taste as well as offensive.


          • Malisha says:

            I consider such talk harmless right now, but when I was a kid I had to walk my brother to school since he had polio and used crutches. When we were attacked by the kids who were mad at us for killing Jesus, I was the only one who could fight, so I was pretty well trained (worked out less than Fogen, though). That was until “Piggie” who was one of the kids from the three (3) Black families in town took a liking to us because I had practiced reading with him and helped him write a book about his dog. Piggie was about 6″ taller than all the other kids in our class and he was stronger than Kokopelli. He’d come to the house to pick up my brother and me before school and we’d walk in together. On one of the first trips in with him by our side, a couple of regulars rode by on their bikes, dismounted shouting “Christ Killers Christ Killers” and headed towards us. Piggie put one of the into the hedges and was headed towards the other one (who had not even reached us yet) when they both screamed and got on their bikes so fast I didn’t know what had happened. Every time I replay that scene in my mind, I have another fit of laughter. My brother had lifted one crutch ready to strike and Piggie said, “Hey, can I try that for a minute?”

      • ks says:

        Whoa now, that’s crazy talk.

      • cielo62 says:

        Dennis~ Oh Dennis! PLEASE double your meds! There IS no conspiracy, nor hundreds of people of ANY color just waiting to kill and pillage Sanford! Same morons posting and tweeting in the anonymity of their technology like at ANY forum! If such people continue to post/tweet/FB with such plans, rest assured that proper authorities are keeping an eye on them.


        • Dennis says:

          Double my meds? You’re the idiot that thinks 9/11 was done by cave-dwelling muslims and jet fuel can melt steal. Don’t think I don’t remember your personal attacks against me.

          • cielo62 says:

            Dennis~ And yes, I STILL think you are full of shit pudding! What IS it with your crazy conspiracy people anyway? Isn’t reality fucked up enough?


          • Dennis says:


            Go fuck yourself. You are gay and that is a crime against nature. I’m tired of the personal attacks from cunts like you. The world would be much better if you washed your mouth out with buckshot.

          • cielo62 says:

            Dennis~ Now now little boy. The truth hurts, huh? The world is NOT full of conspiracy theories and not everybody is out to trick, fool or kill you. “Against nature” when every mammal species on the planet plus many bird species ALL have homosexuality as part of the normal spectrum? Or are you jealous you can’t get a date with ANY gender within our species? My attacks are against the kind of ignorance that you post that have NO basis in reality. That you buy into them with such relish shows a demonstrative lack of critical thinking skills. Your pathetic use of naughty words is so very amusing little boy. Isn’t it past your bedtime?


          • Deborah Moore says:

            Dennis –
            I’m finding your comments extremely offensive.
            You think being born gay is a crime against nature?
            That’s cave man thinking.
            Hateful comments are a crime against nature.
            I’ll say bye bye, ’cause after this comment to cielo, I imagine you’ll be gone.

          • Dennis says:

            @Deborah Moore

            If people want to personally insult me, I will be glad to lower myself to their “homosexual” level.

          • cielo62 says:

            Dennis~ Sorry but you’ve no lower to go at this point. Too stupid to advocate for justice, too ignorant to think for yourself and too block headed to know any better. BIGOT is what you are and you can’t get lower than that.


          • Dennis says:

            @Deborah Moore

            I don’t care about this case anymore. I’m done being attacked for defending the memory of Trayvon Martin. I’m done visiting this site. People like cielo62 can go jump off a bridge or go to a FEMA camp and be raped for all I care.

          • cielo62 says:

            Dennis~ Buh Bye! Don’t let your stinking IP address hit your ball-less butt on the way out!!


          • Deborah Moore says:

            I don’t even know what that means.
            We are all equal.
            This trial is about hate and how hate kills.
            I’ll leave you to God, for now.

          • aussie says:

            ahemm…. Dennis…. they MAKE steel by MELTING IT, then pouring it into shapes or into a slab which they then ROLL into shapes. Before it cools. Jet fuel is plenty strong enough to get to similar temperatures.

            The cave-dwellers had not planned for the buildings to collapse. That was just icing on the cake for them. They only wanted two huge fires that would burn for a week as a blazing symbol of their success. .

            Plenty of them are very well educated, same as the leaders are in every country. Education and being hostile are not mutually exclusive.

            Anyway this is way off topic here. Fact is a lot of WHITE supremacist sites are trying to spread fear that the blacks will riot all over America (today I even read “all over the world”). Nobody can tell your colour on the internet. The same whites can have 50 accounts each and pretend to be black.

            It is just yet another way of spreading fear and hatred for black people. It has worked enough that some police departments are “making arrangements” for what to do if there are riots.

            Luckily it is all moot. The riots are supposedly going to be when GZ gets acquitted. Seeing as he’s going to be CONVICTED the whole supposed reason for supposed riots won’t exist.

            So you can sleep safe after the verdict, okay?

          • Sophia33 says:

            So what God finds it acceptable to call someone a “C$NT”! So you think it is Godlike to tell someone to go fuck themselves?

            What the hell is wrong with you?

            You are’t supporting Trayvon Martin, you are attacking people who support Trayvon Martin.


          • Dennis says:


            If you don’t have the ability to read cielo’s comment then you are stupid. I was attacked first, called named. Cielo is the type of bully that probably made kids go cut their own wrists. People like that have no respect for anyone else’s opinion. I am not going to apologize to people that personally attack me. Only pussies talk shit behind a computer.

          • Susan Moore says:

            Dennis, I believe you when you say that you “don’t care about this case anymore.”

        • Dennis says:

          How am I a conspiracy theorist when you sit here all day babbling about George Zimmerman conspiracies because you have no life? I came here to ensure justice for Trayvon Martin, but as a white person I am starting to not give a fuck because of stupid trash like you.

          • cielo62 says:

            Dennis~ And HOW have I 1. stopped you from seeking justice for Trayvon and 2. WHAT “conspiracy” have I advocated for gz? I didn’t realize I had so much power in your little computer world. If my posts are oh so stupid, then how can they stop you from doing the right thing? I’m white, too and NOTHING will stop me from advocating for justice for Trayvon. Go ahead and NOT give a fuck. THIS IS REALITY. Go ahead and head back into your self-congratulatory world of fantasy and conspiracy. I promise I won’t miss you one bit.


          • Dennis says:


            You have no respect for anyone’s opinions if they don’t suit you. You resort to calling them names and labels. If you think you didn’t then you are an idiot that can’t control your own actions, like Zimmerman.

      • Susan Moore says:

        Offense taken!

      • Girlp says:

        Wow Dennis your statement is extremly bigoted, you did offend those of Jewish faith as well as African-American’s you are making assumptions and way off base.

    • Dennis says:

      I was also laughed at by idiots who called me a conspiracy theorist and think jet fuel burns hot enough to melt steel. LMFAO

    • Sophia33 says:

      Folks please don’t try to reason with Dennis it is impossible. My current roommate, who I had NO choice in picking is a (cult) follower of Alex Jones. There is no reasoning with this people.

      I’m reading rational arguments from rational people to someone who reads the writings of an irrational person.

      Just stop. We have enough to deal with right now.

      • Dennis says:

        Nine Danish scientists analyzed multiple samples of WTC dust. Nano-thermite and other explosives were found. You’re a woman and believe everything the government tells you, please stop acting like you have a brain.


        • aussie says:

          Yeah Dennis, that’s right, we saw that last time you linked to it here.

          The problem is that was a long time ago, Hasn’t anything of interest or value happened in YOUR life since then? Time to move on, son.

          Thank you for supporting Trayvon and his family.

        • Sophia33 says:

          “You’re a woman and believe everything the government tells you, please stop acting like you have a brain.”

          Oh, I see what your problem is…a woman treated your woman better then you ever good. You emasculated little boy. I feel sorry for you.

        • cielo62 says:

          Dennis~! And all of that has been DEBUNKED time and time again by scientists ALL OVER THE WORLD, not just 9 Danish ones all high and happy on weed.


          • Dennis says:

            So now you are joining the piece of shit West and O’Mara show and blaming imaginary things on Marijuana.

        • crazy1946 says:

          Way to go Dennis, you have managed to offend blacks, jewish people,gay people, and now you add the female portion of the population to your list! You really need to expand your horizons past the Ron Paul propaganda network if you want to remain even remotely relevant in any discussion with reasonable people…. Now if you want a conspiracy here is one for you, one of two groups is responsible for the funding of the Fogdoits defense, it is either the TeaParty, or the Ron (Rand) Paul alliance, those are the two most visible hate groups operating in this nation today, that being with the virtual demise of the KKK. Now spend a little time explaining that statement and how it does not fit into your little Paulite (racist) world view….

        • Malisha says:

          Uh …

          You’re a woman and believe everything the government tells you,


      • Dennis says:

        Roasted by science. If you think otherwise you are just retarded.

      • cielo62 says:

        Sophia~ Thank you. I should have realized he was a brainwashed cult follower. I will desist from teasing the zombie.


        • Sophia33 says:

          Yeah, me and mother other roommates don’t talk to the Alex Jones lover. Certifiable!

          • Sophia33 says:

            my other roommates is what I am trying to say.

            “my other roommates” turned into “mother”. I really need to go to sleep.

        • Sophia33 says:


          Dennis is a REAL TROLL. Someone needs to alert the professor and it needs to go.

          • Dennis says:

            I was insulted first. Only takes 1 minute to change a damn IP address. Nothing stupider than a woman thinking they know anything about a computer.

          • Deborah Moore says:

            Good night, folks.
            I’ll see (most) of you in the am, with Hoodies Up!
            I’m having some warm milk to help me relax.
            Cielo – Hugs, new gf. (I’ve enjoyed chatting with you).

          • cielo62 says:

            Debora Moore~ Sweet dreams!


  33. Dennis says:

    For those of you that are furious with the failure of the police to arrest Fogen, here is another article detailing the horrible corrupt police of Florida:


  34. esentrick says:

    Love Natalie Jackson. One of the mock juror on after dark hltv stated she believe blood was going down the throat suffocating him which caused the killer to believe he was in imminent fear of his life. So Natalie asked so if blood was in in his throat causing suffocation how did he scream? As Bernie said use you common sense.

    • ks says:

      Heh. What was the answer? That’s such a strange theory though because GZ had minor bleeding at best.

      • Malisha says:

        A thimble full of blood. I have had worse from bumping my nose on a pair of binoculars at the zoo.

      • esentrick says:

        Sorry for the late response did not notice the indicator! But the juror said ” ah oh well I think maybe” then they cut her off and went to commercial. 🙂 I didnt watch anymore after that.

    • Donna Flores says:

      Believe me, if he was swallowing his own blood, he definitely would have mentioned it in his many interviews but he didn’t, so it never happened.

  35. Dennis says:

    I did not watch the sessions of today and yesterday. Can anybody explain why Judge Nelson had a complete trip-out after advising Fogen of his right to remain silent? She demanded answers from him without allowing his defense to speak? Even as a person who wants Fogen put in prison for life, her actions have disturbed me. The judge is not supposed to be doing idiotic things like this that will open the door to a overturn of conviction or retrial. You may not like the source of my article, but the haters will hate anyways.


    • Puck says:

      When she’s informing him of his right to remain silent, she means in terms of testimony. She is required to ask him if he’s going to testify. It is completely improper for counsel to object to a judge, let alone keep pushing an issue on which she’s ruled. The article completely misunderstands procedure and contains unsubstantiated information. It’s bullshit through and through, and I do not base this on the source but the content of the article. If it were printed in the New York Times it would be bullshit.

      • Dennis says:

        They say it is improper for the Judge to ask if the defendant will testify if the defense has not rested their case. Apparently, the defense did not rest their case yet before the Judge asked him. This sounds shady as hell.

        • ks says:

          Huh? Think about what “they” are saying. What sense would it make for JN to ask GZ if he wanted to testify AFTER the defense rested their case? This was a minor and standard procedural thing that West turned into drama.

          • Dennis says:

            You don’t understand.

            There is a big difference between asking the defendant if he will testify, and instructing the jury his lack of testimony is not evidence of guilty.

            BIG difference.

          • ks says:

            Um, what are you talking about? The jury instructions come after the closing arguments. Long after both the defense and prosecution have rested. JN will instruct the jury then but she had to ask GZ if will testify beforehand. If he decided to testify then JN doesn’t have to give the instruction you mentioned and if he doesn’t, which he didn’t, then she will give it when it’s appropriate – after closing.

          • Malisha says:

            Dennis, there are many federal habeas corpus petitions filed by convicts whom the state courts have convicted, that are filed based on a single constitutional violation involving ineffective assistance of counsel. The convict would have exhausted all his state court appeals and then headed into a federal court under a law that says if you have been denied your constitutional rights, and the state courts won’t approve your appeal, you have a federal avenue.

            So they claim that their lawyers were ineffective because they did not let them testify in their own defense. So to prevent that, many states have laws that specifically provide that the judge asks them directly if they want to testify and informs them right in front of their own lawyers that they have that right and the lawyers cannot force them to give up that right. It’s just a SOP that has arisen to close off the avenue of habeas corpus.

            In this case, both at the SYG moment and now, Fogen has said that ON THE ADVICE OF HIS LAWYERS, he is voluntarily giving up a right he has under law. I will bet if he is convicted and his appeals are denied he will file a habeas on that issue anyway, saying his lawyers’ advice was all wrong and he took it to his own detriment.

        • Puck says:

          “They” are extreme-right conspiracy nuts who also write articles about Obama being secretly gay-married.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      West was out of order. Judge Nelson was doing what she’s supposed to be doing.

      • Malisha says:

        What she’s REQUIRED to do. Furthermore, he was trying to derail a process that is essential to the constitutionality of the trial. He wants to get JN into a position for him to complain about something. It’s manipulation, plain and simple. I do not think it will work the way he wants it to. She’s pretty sharp.

    • It wasn’t a trip-out by the Judge. This was standard procedure in a criminal case. There’s a provision called the 5th Amendment to the US Constitution that grants all criminal defendants the right to testify on their own behalf. Any waiver of that right must be “knowing, voluntary, and intelligent.” What that means is that the defendant may consult his/her attorney in order to arrive at a decision, but the final decision as to whether to testify must come from the defendant, not his/her attorney, not the prosecutor, and not the judge. The judge must inquire on the record of the defendant’s knowledge of that right and whether the defendant chooses to invoke or waive that right in open court. Judge Nelson had to ascertain whether Fogen understood his right to testify and she asked Fogen what his decision was regarding testifying. Nothing she did today was improper. His attorney was simply showboating.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Spent the afternoon listening to Rush Limbaugh discuss this case (I’m in a part of the country that has his radio show on 2 different stations on the AM dial). The man is somehow very influential, and has this continuous rant whose rhythms alone penetrate the mind. Similar to the voices on infomercials. However, he is very ignorant.

      Today’s focus: Judge Nelson’s treasonous role in the conspiracy to maliciously pursue an innocent man. “Did you know, can you bee-leeve, she is so conniving as to be ready to tell the jury to consider lesser charges? That’s proof they overcharged him with Murder2 and don’t even have faith in their own accusation. Guest star murmurs agreement, it proves he should never, ever have been charged.

      Thank you, Prof Leatherman and all participating here– I knew from you what JN had to instruct, knew Limbaugh is a blithering ignorant fool beyond a doubt, and wonder why so many follow him blindly, and why so many buy his syndicated shows.

  36. KateW says:

    Bernie was animated. I know it is no laughing matter but at times he had me laughing.

  37. KateW says:

    Bernie reminded me of one of my professors today. Sounded so similar and the use of the power points were effective too. They helped highlight key points.

  38. Judy A Vallejos says:

    I was reading up the comments here and someone touched on a subject I had a question about but forgot to ask

    the child abuse the state wanted to bring in

    it is required by the law to add that isn’t it?

    death of a minor a person under age of 18

    so even though the judge did not allow it this morning no matter what it is a given right?

    • aussie says:

      No, it’s not a necessary lower charge to Murder 2. It’s actually from a child protection law, which is why West was taken to much by surprise that they’d asked for it.

      The advantage of it would be that it is proven by using a firearm against a child, no debate about self defence as it is considered abusive therefore the child is automatically the victim.

      There is already provision in the usual Murder sub-charges for additional penalty if the victim was under 18 and additional if a gun was involved (so shooting a kid gets more prison time than stabbing them, apparently, don’t ask me why in an otherwise gun-friendly State).

      The whole morning conference was about the exact wording of instructions she’ll give to the jury, abut what to include, what to exclude, what legal advice to give the jury about self-defence etc. Both brought their suggested version (in a standard format) and they argued out each one item by item.

      The sub-charges are possibilities, not compulsory. West was trying to get manslaughter taken out, to make it M2 or nothing. So Mantei tossed in the child abuse death one to get him mad. And they ended up back with M2 or manslaughter as the 2 choices she will tell the jury. Well, 3, as they also can choose not guilty. PLUS they have to then decide on the extras for under age and gun, if I recall correctly.

      The jury is not told what the penalties are, so they won’t know that manslaughter can come to about the same prison term as the M2, unless they already know from outside. THey have to decide on facts, not on punishments. .

      • cielo62 says:

        aussie~ Thank you. But I thought the enhancements were mandatory? 10-20-life law for the gun, plus 10 for killing a minor? I read that yes, both will basically add up to the same amount of mandatory years.


  39. Woow! says:

    Dedicated to CAC with love from all of us on Frederick Leatherman Law Blog:

  40. Tee says:

    Professor, what do you think the prosecution need to do tomorrow to get a conviction, after the defense give its closing?

    • Depends on what O’Mara says.

      Other than that, John Guy needs to review the elements of murder 2 and self-defense and identify the evidence they introduced to prove murder 2 and disprove self-defense.

    • Sophia33 says:

      I am hoping that they give their theory of what happened. Yes, I know I am not the Professor, I just wanted to answer.

  41. sadlyyes says:

    good nite all,mebbe soon SYG cretins will be afraid to meet out their racist sociopathic justice,sure hope so

  42. boyd says:

    when this is over ad Fogen is convicted I’ll miss Don West.

    yeah I know I know but I’ll miss him.

    • disappointed says:

      Oh my! That is the last thing I expected to read, ever.

      I am sorry that you will miss him. I won’t, he has given me a migraine everyday for the last month.

    • crazy1946 says:

      I would probably miss him also, but then again my eyesight is not as good as it once was, and I miss more shots now than I did when I was young.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      hahahahahahahaha — yes, we’ve had a lot of laughs at his expense. what a goon! we can find out where this sideshow plays next and watch that, but i don’t think i’ll miss him that much. a highlight reel would be good though of major west meltdowns.

      (thanks boyd, for making me laugh)

    • Sophia33 says:

      Well, there are always episodes of Tales from the Crypt on Youtube.

      Here’s one.

  43. Jun says:

    I bet you Lester is pretty pissed at Fogen for scheming the appellate court to take him off the case

    Lester is right

    He is a liar who flaunted the system

    • Rachael says:

      Except he didn’t flaunt the system, he flouted it.

      Flaunt: Display (something) ostentatiously, esp. in order to provoke envy or admiration or to show defiance. Dress or behave in a sexually provocative way.

      parade – show off – display


      To show contempt for; scorn: flout a law; behavior that flouted convention. Openly disregard

    • KateW says:

      They should have kept him on because he got experience first hand how dishonest and conniving this defendant really is. Crafting and hiding passports and money….for what? Did he have something to hide? Why lie about something so small if he were innocent because he knew he did something wrong.

      • crazy1946 says:

        The is a small flaw in your logic about the removal of Judge Lester, that also applies to the defense team. The appellate court actually made a wise decision by removing him, and if you will take a moment and consider that due to some of his comments it would have been an almost guarantee of a mistrial or overturned conviction at best. The ignorance of the defense in thinking they had won a great victory is astonishing, they never considered what a great thing they had going. Perhaps if people would take the emotion out of viewing this case and actually looked at what has happened (a lot of wise moves by Judge Nelson) in this case that will not only allow a conviction to occur, but will allow that conviction to stand a judicial review, there would be more respect for the bench.

  44. Yorazigo says:

    Was thinking — wonder if Dershowitz is watching and, if so, what he’s thinking now!

    • Judy75201 says:

      He’s thinking, “I’m still relevant, I’m still relevant” LOL.

    • aussie says:

      Last I saw 4 days ago Dershowitz was saying on some show that it had been overcharged just so the jury could drop it to manslaughter if they felt a bit sorry about a boy being dead. But that this was a nasty trick because that carries a very long sentence too.

      He’s still maintaining it’s totally political and GZ is innocent. .He’s going to be screaming mistrial and violations by judge and prosecution, if GZ is convicted.

      • Malisha says:

        Good. Let him work for free for 10 years on the appeals. It will keep him off the street.

        On the other hand, naw, let him go out on the street often and visibly. For skittles.

    • Sophia33 says:

      Well, I saw him on one show the day of opening statements. He said Fogen should have jumped up and demanded new counsel after that Knock Knock joke by West.

      That’s the last I have heard of him.

  45. ada4750 says:

    I listened again the first part before the break. I liked it better. Bernie had very good drive. He was convincing. I am sure that many jurors consider very seriously that GZ chased Trayvon all the way. This is the first key point. The second key point is about GZ injuries. Same thing, the message past to the jury. There is enough there for manslaughter.

    Things got somewhat less good after the break. The last key point is whether GZ was under Trayvon or not when he shot. BDLR raised doubts but i am afraid that was not sufficient.

  46. breelee says:

    Sorry guys, one more: Please Guy, remind the jury fogen bought that gun to shoot a poor dog!

    • boyd says:

      wow what a rebuttal that would have been

    • DruDo says:

      breelee, I’d put his oversize butt in jail just for even thinking about harming an animal. I am, and always have been, an advocate for animals, have long been involved in animal rescue and know that very often, anyone who harms animals don’t hesitate to harm children and those who can’t defend themselves. Fogen is said to have kicked his ex-gf’s dog in the stomach and stated he bought gun(s) to protect against a neighborhood dog, he SAID on the advice of an animal control officer. I don’t believe that. An animal control officer would be extremely hesitant to even suggest that. That’s a potential legal issue and doubt it happened. Fogen lies to cover his butt and always tries to point the finger at others to justify his actions. He really disgusts me.

  47. colin black says:

    GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    July 11, 2013 at 7:16 pm

    I was glad that Bernie pointed out that there was no blood on the sidewalk. That was important to me. Blood does not wash off the sidewalk, it leaves a stain.

    Yup An next day special detox cleaning teams have to wash down clean up blood.

    There was none to collect as evidence there was none left to clean up.

  48. breelee says:

    Wanted to add, I was furious papa z was allowed to make rude faces and thought he should have his sorry butt kicked out. I have re-thought that, and think it’s good for the jury to see what a**es the zims are. IF no zimbots snuck though and got on this jury, I’d say we have a really, really good chance for Justice for our Trayvon.

    Continued prayers and strength for Tracy, Sybrina and the rest of Trayvon’s loved ones.

  49. Judy A Vallejos says:

    Tomorrow Tomorrow man that song just keeps ringing in my head!!!

  50. Woow! says:

    West morning breakdown.

    • aussie says:

      And later they cheerfully allowed it to be taken out.

      Mantei put that is JUST to rattle West. And succeeded.

      • gwynne says:

        That is exactly what I thought. Go Mantei, giving westie the business.
        westie really doesn’t realize that if he just did the work, rather than constantly wasting precious time complaining and moaning about how hard work is, he would be done a lot faster.

        This is a really old hee haw song…but it comes to mind every time westie starts moaning about how hard his job is. I think it could be westie’s theme song! lol

        Gloom, despair and agony on me,
        Deep dark depression excessive misery,
        If it weren’t for bad luck, I’d have no luck at all,
        Gloom, despair and agony on me.

      • cielo62 says:

        aussie~ THANKS! That was SO funny! West is SUCH a whiner. Just admit that you were outmaneuvered by the prosecution. LOL! Yes, West was livid and shaking with anger.


    • Jun says:

      West IMO is an idiot

      Fogen killed a kid

      Of course it is at the very least manslaughter

      and there’s no evidence that Trayvon was pummeling Fogen, that’s just what West says or Fogen

      Trayvon is 17, therefore a minor

      I do not see how this is supposed to be a big fucking surprise

    • Sophia33 says:

      Isn’t this the fool who started with a bizarre “Knock Knock” Joke?

  51. breelee says:

    I haven’t read any of this new page, just got done with the previous. I haven’t been sleeping or eating since the trial started. After Bernie stopped today, I literally collapsed, slept for hours. : ) My poor doggies had to walk on me to wake me up, but I’m feeling super hopeful! : ) I think Bernie did a amazing job.

    I want to repost my last post on the older thread, as it had about 4 posts that I don’t think understood what I said:
    “Bowing to Bernie,BUT, no mention of fogen talking on the phone seconds after killing Trayvon. No mention that fogen HAD to say he was checking for a weapon since witnesses saw him on top of Trayvon. What he was doing is speeding up the kill! Bernie, please!”

    Each poster responded he DID mention checking for the gun. That’s not what I said, I wanted Bernie to say he used that as a excuse to speed up Trayvon’s death. I also really want it told that fogen was on the phone in that picture taken by Jon, and he sure wasn’t calling for an ambulance!

    BUT, now that I learned Bernie had to hold some things back until after the duhfense speaks, I’m hoping those two points will come out. I am loving that the state can hold back points and gets to go last, that’s Huge! Anyhoo, thanks all, and Racer, I love the Skittle idea, and if I get out I’m buying my own Trayvon clelebratory bag.

  52. riisey007 says:

    Ha ha, this is funny. This woman just asked Frank Taffe what is he getting out of defending Zimmerman. He was livid and said he was just trying to get help for his friend. People have gotten wise to Frank and they seem to think he has done something and is covering.

    • aussie says:

      Well we never found out who gave him the TIP OFF.

      Except he allegedly first saw him at…. guess where??? Taaffe’s place.

      I’m sure the show is paying him something, too. There’s an actors’ union that demands everyone be paid, so they can’t get free people in and take away “professional” jobs. They can interview a guest, once, for free, sure, but a talking head has to be paid. For an unemployed and unemployable guy facing DUI charges and facing foreclosure, that might be very good money.

      • Rachael says:

        Oh, I saw it – he says sometimes he is lucky and they give him a sandwich and a cab right – that’s all he’s getting “paid.” I believe it. I think he just likes being on TV.

        Now on MSNBC they said that night on Sean Hannity GZ had no regrets but tonight he probably has regrets that he was on Sean Hannity LMAO!!!

  53. Woow! says:

    Don West need to learn when to shut up.

    • racerrodig says:

      Waaaaaaaaaa, Waaaaaaaaa, Waaaaaaaa, Waaaaaaa

      10, 20, 30, 100 hours….hey dude….nothing like having a 1,000 % time expended error……..must be that “New Math”

      • fauxmccoy says:


        i noticed that about west and billable hours. i’m beginning to worry about how he bills clients.

  54. Woow! says:

    I bet MOM wish he did not let his client go on the Hannity show.

    • whonoze says:

      GZ should have ‘skipped’ that interview.

    • FactsFirst says:

      @BERNIE, HEY BOO!! If your reading this I never doubted you.. I saw JN and I know why you pulled in the reins.. Don’t forget about GZ’s claims of meeting “AN OFFICER HE HAD CALLED” in that Hannity interview.. In the walk through, he said he was looking for an address, but on Hannity he said he was meeting an officer he had called…Make sure Mantei point that HOT MOUTH LIE out too… Love you Bald Head DUDE!

  55. Judy A Vallejos says:

    malisha my neighbor the county sheriff came over for a minute tonight when he got home from work (we were out front watering the yard my husband and I) anyway he says if zimmerass goes to jail for a day he will buy me dinner and if he don’t I buy him dinner

    im thinking I want to go to a bigger town for this and Red Lobster ummmm…love me some Red Lobster

    heres the deal though…he was trying to tell my husband this kid smoked pot and he was 6’2″ almost 200lbs and I said oh no no you have that all wrong there and hey I used to smoke pot when I was a kid too should I be dead too then?

    I advised him to go home and watch the closing arguments from today to start with and then maybe look at the autopsy report

    GEEEZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!! what people don’t know right????

    • Malisha says:

      That’s the thing. People who are making bets on the acquittal don’t know diddlysquat about the EVIDENCE.

      Prosecution hasn’t been running around screaming about the evidence in the press. Defense has been running around screaming about the ANTI-EVIDENCE in the press.

      Enjoy your lobster dinner, my dear. Be sure to order dessert!

      • Judy A Vallejos says:

        at minimum It would be a 5 hour drive : ( rural mountain town we live in here

        but yes that is the thing people don’t know and I think it is awful what they have done to Trayvon after he was so wrongfully MURDERED

        then you got this taffie ass saying how wrong and persecuted his bff is being treated in the court

        they have afforded zimmerass everything none of which he gave Trayvon….

        • boyd says:

          where the F do you live in Colorado? 5 hr drive to anywhere?

          Geez I’m sitting here if I should take my annual 6 hr drive to Saratoga Springs,NY in 2 weeks for the races. A buddy of mine is in syndicate spends 30k a year on racehorses. But a Killer drive on the NY/NJ state thruway. And NY’ers are too loud , they get on my nerves, but they are funny

        • boyd says:

          back on topic, I don’t pay attention to taafe, he’s harmless. it’s those Pro-Fogen lawyers. Theye need a can of whup ass

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Ooo, and eat lots of those good Red Lobster biscuits too.

        • elle says:

          I made copycat cheddar bay biscuits last night! Ham, mashed potatoes, gravy, green beans, and cheddar biscuits. I have made too much bread lately (agitated), so I had to make biscuits instead.

    • EdgySF says:

      I know! It’s crazy seeing denial first hand, isn’t it? People aren’t thinking.

    • aussie says:

      You should change that bet to once a week, if he gets more than 20 years. 🙂

    • Woow! says:

      Your county sheriff neighbor should no better.

      • Judy A Vallejos says:

        yeah I cut him a break…he had a long busy day with all the town meth heads today so glad we don’t live up in all that our area is pretty calm

    • gwynne says:

      Unless someone has taken the time and trouble to watch and listen to a live feed they are clueless. Getting “information” from cable and network news talking heads who pick and choose what to say is a waste of time.
      The “news” shows spend hours with biased analysis, presented as facts.

  56. Jeanette says:

    At first I didn’t get Bernie’s closing style, but I think that was only because it was not what I had expected.

    After listening further, it started to make sense and I think it was effective in that, it was offered in such a way to suggest a conversation/dialogue with the jury, rather than a lecture or proclamation.I also think there were subtle hints to the jury that he trusts and respects their ability to make decisions.

    Attempting to establish a reciprocal level of trust with the jury is a great strategy.

    • sadlyyes says:

      yes he was not speaking AT them,he was speaking WITH them,as a coach,or counsellor,just recounting facts as witnesses described them,Atticus DLR !

    • gwynne says:

      Bernie has a great style! Cordial, respectful, not condescending, and he knows to use sarcasm only when appropriate and sparingly. I love his conversational manner.

  57. sadlyyes says:

    BDLR was busy today PAINTING the portrait of a socipathic killer,who knew better ,than anyone(bad assumptions) WHO TRAYVON MARTIN was.with all his mma training,college courses in police work,he felt so confident,that he was smarter than all the cops,smarter than the jailers(ph call to shel) smarter than nen operators etc.He knew,that child had to die to satisfy his power/control lust…plain evil…carry on Bernie,bravo

  58. Malisha says:

    Knock Knock.
    Who’s there?
    Fogen who?
    Just Fogen. Because of what he has done, that’s all there is.

    Knock Knock.
    Who’s there?
    Fogen who?
    Yeah. Cool.

  59. Judy A Vallejos says:

    oh my goodness….LOL
    my husband and I are discussing the case…
    I just referred to zimmerass by calling him fogen…
    now my husband wants to know who the hell the fogen guy is???? and how/why did he and zimmermass do this? and get away with it?

    • Malisha says:

      I have found myself calling him Fogen when I speak with people about him, too, and I correct myself and find it hard to call him Zimmerman. IT’S WORKING! WE’RE FORGETTING HIS DAMNED NAME! YAY!!

      • Ty Flair says:

        Me to Malisha I always call him fogen my friends get confuse.

      • gbrbsbblogs says:

        Even I have found myself calling him “Fogen” when talking to others, Malisha, and I have never once used it when I post!

        On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 2:14 AM, Frederick Leatherman Law Blog wrote:

        > ** > Malisha commented: “I have found myself calling him Fogen when I speak > with people about him, too, and I correct myself and find it hard to call > him Zimmerman. IT’S WORKING! WE’RE FORGETTING HIS DAMNED NAME! YAY!!” >

      • pork que says:

        That was the goal … FOrGEtName …

        Personally, I find it easier just to call him “the Killer” seems no matter who I speak with, they all know he is “the Killer”

        • fauxmccoy says:

          i’m probably weird about this, but i call him ‘the defendant’ … i hope to soon be able to just call him ‘the convicted felon’ if i refer to him at all.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        It’s working for me too! I find myself calling him that in conversations now.

      • elle says:

        I will not say his name. I call him the murderer or fogen. I will not put his name into the universe.

      • racerrodig says:

        In the beginning I did this “..Z (I still refuse to type his name)…” when I was on HP. Last year about Aug – Sept someone here came up with Fogen and it’s that or cac (crazy ass cracker)

    • Sophia33 says:

      I just found out last week what Fogen meant. Now I use it all of the time online. I thank you guys for that. However, telling me about the treehouse is something you all should be ashamed of. 🙂

  60. Jun says:

    i dont buy for a second that it is Fogen screaming and I honestly doubt the jurors will either

    because of that, I believe he already lost the jury, because if he is willing to steal a young boy’s screams, who knows what else he lied about and I am sure they will understand the danger Fogen is to the community if he is trying to steal a kid’s screams

    as for the SYG, it’s unconstitutional in the aspect, and they should change that if there is reasonable doubt in a defendant’s claim of self defense, he is automatically guilty or something like that

    The SYG makes it unfair for a victim and it is dangerous because people like Fogen with knowledge of it will commit violent crimes and stage the scene to benefit themself

    Anyways, I feel this is one of the most frivolous claims of self defense ever

    It’s so obvious that Fogen was going after this kid and the Fogen even admitted it himself and then later tried to cover up his crime with lies

    There’s no dna on Trayvon’s hands, sleeves, cuffs, arms to show he attacked Fogen in any way, and the kid is innocent and I doubt any moral person can justify the kid being killed when he did nothing but flee from the defendant and then try to defend himself by wrestling the defendant off him for a few seconds

    The kid had every reason to flee because let’s be real,. when Fogen caught the kid, he threatened the kid and then killed the kid as the kid begged for mercy, then sat his 208 pound butt on the kid’s back asphyxiating the kid

    Only creeps and weirdos support this POS

    • Malisha says:

      Trayvon Martin had a right pursuant to the SYG law to stand HIS ground and to use maximum force to defend HIMSELF against an armed and dangerous man following him. PERIOD. No, make that: EXCLAMATION POINT ❗

    • My Forehead Tho says:

      “because of that, I believe he already lost the jury, because if he is willing to steal a young boy’s screams, who knows what else he lied about and I am sure they will understand the danger Fogen is to the community if he is trying to steal a kid’s screams”

      Agree with everything except this, I think you may have it backwards. Because jurors know he’s a liar, and BDLR made sure of that, they won’t doubt for a second that he is capable of stealing a kids screams. If he lied about something as obvious as following Trayvon and Trayvon running, i’m sure they’re convinced that he’ll lie about any and everything.

  61. Woow! says:

    BDLR skipping in court.

    • whonoze says:

      Thanks for posting that.

    • ada4750 says:

      LOL That’s one part that i was not looking, it was playing in backgroung while i wise doing something else. Bernie is a comedian.

    • pork que says:

      Exactly! I dang near fell over laughing — AT the Killer — when BDLR went skipping in court

    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      That was hilarious. I know the people in the court wanted to laugh at that one, but Bernie illustrated how silly amd ridiculous Zimmerman’s BS lie was.

      My brothers are natural comedians like the Waylan brothers and one of them came by my house today mimicking the skipping along. My side is still hurting from laughing so hard,

    • Girlp says:

      I loved that part BLDR skipping…LOL! BLDR did a good job of discrediting Zimmerman’s statements and shows that Zimmerman’s version of 2/26 is not close to possible. Now I’m waiting for Guy to show how O’Mara’s version is implausible, once O’Mara expands on Zimmerman’s lies and shows his cartoon (if he does) and I expect Guy will get into the forensics I believe his part will be more technical than BLDR’s. We will see.

  62. boyd says:

    the media in favor of Fogen, people need to start hammering them, how would you like being followed , or your wife and kids. oh then it’s a different story. really pisses me off.

    I’m sick of this. I was followed once when I was 18-19, got mugged, let me tell you …takes a while to figure out what’s going on and then it’s too late.. the big cat pounces. for me it was 3 kids a little older than me beating me up. . we’re all not James Bond.

    • riisey007 says:

      That’s right Boyd, this boy was a teenager. when he took off running he thought he had left Zimmerman in his truck. He was on his phone probably thinking well I lost him but maybe he was being strange by looking at me but he won’t actually get out to follow me but he was wrong,then again who knows Rachel said he said he was to his dads fiance’s home so it could be Zimmerman drove around back and jumped out of no where and Martin said “what are you following me for?” then he ends up grabbing Martin and they run back the other way. Let’s not forget the police had no clue that Zimmerman was in his truck, they thought he was on foot. Shellie moved his truck.

      • aussie says:

        Sean the NEN dispatcher testified he didn’t know he was in a vehicle, either, till he started running after Trayvon.

        The truck was still in the area when they went checking tags, some 20 minutes later, but they didn’t think it was significant…. they were only looking for a stranger, hoping to identify Trayvon. So they said. BUT the witness on Skype, the sick black former neighbour, said she’s seen Trayvon in the area before. So why didn’t she tell that to the cops when they were showing her pictures? (oh, maybe she did and they took that as confirmation of a criminal casing the place yet again???)

        If not for the NEN call we’d not even know he’d followed Trayvon AT ALL. And without that his story could not be disproved.

  63. riisey007 says:

    Nancy Grace just lost it on Taffe, she kept trying to talk and Taffe kept talking she busted out with BS BS BS Taafe. She almost said bullshit, she turned red. Finally she said did anyone forget that there is a dead boy? I was like finally. She said you have a dead body why do you not prosecute? I have finally figured out that Nancy kept bringing Taffe on the show she wanted him to keep saying the wrong thing. She so wants him to keep up his racial crap. The more he talks the more I feel like he had a big part in this murder. Zimmerman was over there shaking his head, he knows the cameras are on him. Nancy said if he wants to shake his head no then he should have taken the stand. I need Zimmerman found guilty because I got a feeling that he is gonna squeal like a pig on Taffe and the gang. Nancy also uncovered that Zimmerman is fat because he is eating well and not because of stress. O’mara lied this man wasn’t worried not until Bernie played all of his lies today but not only that Nancy Grace said he is getting 30,000 a month in donations. No wonder O’mara stays on t.v. giving all these interviews. He is full of crap. Zimmerman is living like a king. Who among us is making 30,000 per month?

    • boyd says:

      when will someone ask MOM how would you like it if your family member is stalked by a gun holder? they all cowards.

    • Patrcia J-C says:

      Taafe had a freudian slip tonight on the Jane Velez-Mitchell show. He said, “I was there”, then quickly changed that to say he lived there. Think about how he told a reporter last year how George was tired and not going to take it (burglaries, break-ins, or whatever his delusions were saying at the time) anymore. Remember how some of the witnesses were talking about someone in a white T-shirt? I really hope there is Justice for Trayvon because from where I am sitting, he has been demonized and slandered.

      • trina cosbie says:

        WOW, I am so glad I wasn’t the only one who caught that. A panelist asked him, “how we he know if he wasn’t there?” & he said, “I was there”, but quickly then said “I live in the neighborhood, that’s how I know”……..I’m still not convinced GZ didn’t have someone else helping him look for Trayvon. That person just wasn’t present during

    • aussie says:

      Don’t know where she claims to get 30,000 a month from. There was one month like that, I know of. And they’ve not been publishing the figures lately.

      Of course not from stress, but possibly partly from medications. But he’s always had a tendency to be a fatty; and people on healthy diets generally don’t get IBS, either. So I’d say eating a LOT, not “well”.

      • riisey007 says:

        Well Frank Taafe didn’t dispute the money and he said that Zimmerman needed the money because lawyers cost money and he had to pay 400.00 an hour for a witness. I believe he is still receiving his hate money, perhaps she did her research, maybe she knows someone. If Zimmerman was not getting this money Taffe would have surely put that fire out with the he is barely getting by because he can’t work blah blah. I know he has tendencies to be fat it is not like I haven’t seen him over the year and his mug in 2005. I was being funny when I said he was eating good but definitely is not starving. I also stated that the monitoring of his medicine may be the cause of him gaining the weight back a couple of months ago. I have IBS-c from having intestinal surgery in 1996 there are other ways to get IBS.I really dont know what he eats nor care but I will assume with anyone telling me that he is still getting plenty of money from all the gun nuts, the racists, the KKK, and those nuts at conservative tree house. There is a lot of hate here in America and black people are the most hated world wide. You can go to any political site and see what they say about Obama, and then go to any site about this case and you will read how much hate there is for us. I don’t believe that all people are bad and that people of all races hate any and everybody but there are a lot of people that would love to see me and my people on the auction block.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Diet doesn’t cause IBS, just saying. Once you have it, diet can worsen it.

        • cielo62 says:

          Stress causes IBS. It’s very common. It’s called the Cold of the intestinal tract. Diet and some strong antacids help, plus relaxation exercises. Nothing special unless it escalates to ulcers or GIRD.


    • Sophia33 says:

      I don’t understand why he is on EVERY HLN show. He was on like 3 shows tonight. WHY?!!!!!!

      Is he on leave from work? Is he independently wealthy, because tonight I saw him say that he isn’t getting paid for these appearances.

    • Xena says:

      Taaffe was on HLN After Dark. He played the role of GZ by getting on his back to demonstrate how GZ got his gun out. Know the first thing he did? Try to push the guy’s thigh down. LOL!! Vinnie said no, GZ didn’t say he pushed Trayvon’s thigh out of the way. My phone ranged and I didn’t see the rest, but Taaffe had turned a dark shade of red.

  64. Malisha says:

    Thanks Sophia!
    Bozo, Bozas Bozat, Bozamus Bozatus Bozunt!

  65. tharealkeisha says:

    Justice for Trayvon. The fight will never end! Repeal ‘Stand your Ground’

  66. Rachael says:

    Bernie even pointed out that GZ’s weight gain is a lie. Oh, not that he is wearing a fat suit, but yeah, like in a way he is. It makes it much easier in to make it look like he is that pathetic marshmallow that the gym guy said. But Bernie pointed out he looked quite fit and capable back then.

    • riisey007 says:

      Yeah it was very important for people to see him at the weight he was at that time because we do not need people looking at him like that was his weight that night. Everybody around this piece of crap is trying to make money off of him. The Ostermans, West,O’ mara, Shellie, his parents, the gym owner, the 400.00 an hour specialist. The list goes on and on. I can guarantee that West and O’mara especially West cared more about the racial aspect of the case then the actual murder case.

    • Sophia33 says:

      He intentionally gained all of that weight IMHO.

  67. I have banned Tasha from this site.


    • boyd says:

      wow,missed what she said

    • Judy75201 says:

      I don’t know if she was a troll or not, but if not (and “if” is iffy), she was entirely too immature and baiting, so I’m glad.

    • aussie says:

      Don’t think she was a troll, but very disruptive and hurt a lot of people whose nerves were already frayed. Seemed to be bipolar except swinging up and down every 10 minutes. Constant panic, no overview even of outlines, never mind the big picture. The kind of person who, in real life, would need a quick slap to snap out of hysterics in an emergency.

      A holiday as reader-only will help her settle her own nerves, too. Good all round.

      • Malisha says:

        Well, Aussie, I hope you are not “the kind of person who, in real life,” would be the one to decide who needed that quick slap and who, having decided, would quickly administer it. I mean, just to settle down folks’ nerves. Whereupon folks respond, of course, “thanks, I needed that [homie]” …

    • EdgySF says:

      Ahhh…thank you. I’m stressed enough as it is, and am in need of comfort.

    • MrSykes says:

      Thank you! I had my doubts a few times about this as well, and have even expressed as much in the previous thread, but I still choose to hold out hope and relish the esprit de corps in this forum. Her constant negativity was downright toxic.

    • Puck says:

      Can you take care of Dennis now? Look downthread: it’s beyond the pale.

  68. boyd says:

    Fogen support is dying a little. Getting close to the end I sense people are getting it. I saw where the fight club guy is getting bad reviews. Guy will kill it.

    I’ll be paying attention how long MOM/west can beat the photos, screams,John Good and the fight into the ground. they ignore everything else. 3 hrs of repetitive stuff.

  69. Tee says:

    All I hear is that Fogen eill get off the state hasn’t proven their case. I believe God is good & that Fogen,will be going to jail it’s time to pay the piper. he’s gotten away with so much in his life its time to pay for all the crimes he has gotten away with.

    • boyd says:

      only the media, people are PO. have not met a woman cool with it, as I would expect. don’t think they like being followed.

  70. pork que says:

    Dear Mr. Leatherman

    You are a most gracious website host. You are host to many good men and woman, of all ethnic backgrounds, of whom come here to share facts and their souls.

    Without your generosity and passion, we would be stuck in the bowels of other websites that only pretend to give a damn about facts and only pretend they aren’t geared to enable the hate-spreaders.

    Thank you

  71. boyd says:

    after a couple relaxing shots of some decent Courvoiser, I came up with a reason to bypass ‘prior bad acts’

    Who drove over to the GF’s house and started a fight?

    Who went outside the bar to confront a cop?

    Who went after Trayvon Benjamin Martin?

    I smell a pattern, instigator.

  72. uhoh says:

    Tomorrow OM will play his scamimation as part of his closing argument. IIRC, the animation goes blank at the gunshot on JL’s call just like TM’s life bleeding away.

  73. 7SCORE says:

    GZ’s grappling skills need to be emphasized. GZ admitted to Serino that he had Trayvon “under control” with a wrist lock, before he pulled the trigger. Since a wrist lock is disabling, GZ definitely killed Trayvon because he wanted to.

    Bernie briefly mentioned MMA/”wrist control” this afternoon, but I think this should be a key part of Guy’s rebuttal tomorrow.

    This is my first post ever.

    • aussie says:

      Welcome 7SCORE. Never to late to join our merry band.

      They’ve kept a few things low again, to let the defence make yet another mistake they can pounce on at the end. Defence has a comic strip animation showing “what happened” (mysteriously leaving out the gun altogether) so this will be a good rebuttal to that.

    • My Forehead Tho says:

      Yes, I hope Guy elaborates on that and the blood flow on GZ’s head, which supports the State’s theory that they both were top.

  74. Sophia33 says:

    For Malisha, since you asked!

    Hopefully, we will have the same result in a few days with people surprised by the verdict of GUILTY

    • whonoze says:

      I don’t think the support for GZ is about GZ or TM at all, really. I think the whole thing is symbolic politics, and it’s all about Obama.

      • aussie says:

        It’s a redoubling (let’s hope last ditch redoubling) of an age-old effort to keep the under-man, the untermensch, the subhuman, down — where they belong. One of “those” becoming President was a shocker warning that those days may be drawing to a close.

        Even though Obama is not African American. Well actually with a Kenyan father his is more so than most, but by the descendent-of-slaves-who-should-never-have-been-liberated standards he’s not AA at all.

        The saddest thing to me, in this past year, was the number of bloggers who’ve talked about having to have “the talk” with their sons. The Talk. What to wear, how to act, how to talk, to not be in danger. yet another, this time self-imposed, staying in their place, placating whitey with deference just to physically survive to grow to adulthood.

        Unlike poor Trayvon. Listen, mothers, the WORST advice you can give your sons is to arm themselves. Had Trayvon been armed (even legally, say, if he were a year older) it would be automatically 100% self-defence for GZ, no charges.

        • Let me get this straight. If you’re unarmed…you’re dead. If you arm yourself…you’re f’d?

          • Malisha says:

            Even if Trayvon had been unarmed yet had managed to get the best of Fogen and either killed or disarmed HIM by the time the police arrived, it would be Trayvon in prison for 35 to life or (if Fogen died) on death row. They had him almost (or totally, we still don’t know) pegged as the aggressor and the would-be murderer when all he did was GET MURDERED, so imagine if he had committed the additional crime of NOT getting murdered! Then (a) there would have been no hesitation before making an arrest on 2/26/2012; and (b) we would never have heard of his case until the death row folks got ahold of it and started sending around petitions for his appeal or clemency petitions. Trust me.

          • Talk about some f’d up ish. Where are the rights of the Trayvons in this world?

      • Sophia33 says:

        I agree. Hence all of these claims about what the DOJ is supposedly doing supporting “anti-Zimmerman” rallies. If Obama hadn’t said, this could be his son, not as many of them would be supporting Zimmerman.

  75. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    I was glad that Bernie pointed out that there was no blood on the sidewalk. That was important to me. Blood does not wash off the sidewalk, it leaves a stain.

    • whonoze says:

      And BDLR might have pointed that out… Now that you mention it, concrete IS porous, and the same textures that made those “punctate abrasions” (or PUNKtate abrasions as West might label them) would indeed trap and hold blood.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        Yup, maybe, Guy will do that in the rebuttal.

        • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

          But then again, whonoze, I think most women know that if they have children. Not only that blood is hard to get out of clothes too and they should know that from washing clothes.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            any teen female who has reached puberty knows a bit about blood and clothing. mothers, of course, even more. any parent who routinely does laundry would have a clue.

      • Rachael says:


      • groans says:

        Maybe I missed it, but I was also hoping for some mention during the trial of the “S” shaped reddened area adjacent to CAC’s scalp “lacerations.” How was that “consistent with” a concrete sidewalk head bashing?

    • Malisha says:

      Interesting you mention that, Granny. When my kid was 10 years old we were in DC for a concert given by a friend of mine (she’s an evangelist) in a church in the NorthEast somewhere. We followed directions on public transportation and came within five or six blocks of the location. We walked. It was an early Sunday morning, hazy, a bit cool. There were blood stains and broken glass on the sidewalk. My kid stopped, appalled, and said, “WHAT’S THAT?” It was a spatter pattern, hard to miss, but there was no yellow crime tape, no cop cars with flashing lights like on TV crime shows. I stopped with him. “Looks like blood stains,” I answered. He was paralyzed with horror. “What happened here?”

      After a minute or so I got him to slowly walk away from the place, and we tried to concentrate on the directions to the church, which we soon found. He kept mentioning the blood stains, though. I bet they were not going to wash away very soon.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        Malisha, one of the kids had a nose bleed before and little blood drops splattered on the ground. Rain or shine those dried blood stains remained on the ground, until the city did renovation upgrades and jack hammered it up

        Blood is hard to get up. When it is a murder, the city comes out and sprays some type of chemical on it to clean it up. That’s another reason why I know Zimmerman is lying. There was no blood on the concrete.

        • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

          It could rain forty days and forty night and that blood stain would remain with a slight change in color…bright red to a rust color red.

    • racerrodig says:

      And you can bet the farm if there had been blood on the sidewalk, we’d all know about it, Fogen would have beaten that one to death as would Papa Z, Robbie the Racist and Taaffe.

      They can all stick it in their collective ears.

  76. vickie s. votaw says:

    I really like the end, you did it all beautifully!

  77. Judy75201 says:

    I don’t have a gripe with Bernie’s closing. This is not a scripted multi-million dollar movie with amazing script writers. It’s real life, with real people. I think he was effective, and for that I am grateful.

    • Puck says:

      I agree completely. Basically, he’s pointing out GZ’s BS and saying “really? I mean, really?”

    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      I agree. Bernie did a wonderful job and he explained it where a common ordinary person could understand it. The people on juries are not lawyers or judges trained at law schools. They are employed in occupations that do involve extensive knowledge of the law.

      Some of you on here are lawyers, so naturally your view is different from people without that knowledge.

    • Judy75201 says:

      Wow, I honest-to-God did not see this post before I posed my “grateful” comment below.

      I am also grateful for the enormous contribution you have made toward Justice for Trayvon Benjamin Martin.

    • Momma says:

      Oh, Papa. . . . crying my eyes out. Bless you.

    • Romaine says:

      great recap LLMPAPA one of my favorite songs perfect during this time of the trial, much luv…

    • Rachael says:

      OMG, that was the best yet. I am crying so hard. Tears for Trayvon, tears for justice, tears because you are so artistic and Bernie is so good at what he does and this was beautiful.

      Stunningly beautiful.

      Yes, thank you Bernie, but thank you too LLMPapa. Trayvon is in good hands and you helped put him there.

      We all did.

      Because we all want the same thing for him, his family and for all moms and dads and kids.

    • pork que says:

      You are my favorite video-man

      I bow, in “thank you,” to you for sharing your work!

    • Sophia33 says:

      Beautiful as always LLMPapa!

    • KA says:

      Best tribute….He is watching and justice will be done.

      [where is the Kleenex]

    • Valerie says:

      *tears* priceless…thanks LLMPapa

    • Absolutely beautiful, LLMPapa. Thanks for all your work.

    • riisey007 says:

      Oh Lord this video almost killed me. I really sincerely pray that this young mans killer is found guilty. He started this, he killed an unarmed kid and he should have to pay for his assumptions of this child. Zimmerman had no right to take this childs life he was not bothering him, he was minding his own business.

    • Ty Flair says:

      You have done it again Sir. Thank you.

    • Jeanette says:

      What a touching video.

      Not enough can be said of the tremendous work you’ve done.

      Thank you so very much.

    • I salute you, LLMPapa!


    • Two sides to a story says:

      A job well done, LLM Papa. If I were the video making type, I’d do a tribute to you for your work toward justice for Trayvon.

    • elle says:

      With my gratitude to two masters. Thank you, Bernie. Thank you, Papa.

    • racerrodig says:

      You are incredible. Bernie’s closing was on point and well done and this compilation is just amazing.

    • Yorazigo says:

      Bravo LLMPapa! Thank you for all your hard work.

    • groans says:

      Great tribute, LLMPapa.

      I laughed out loud today when the deputy had to check the gun before Bernie used it as a prop (in the first 30 seconds of your video). When the deputy checked the gun for safety – holy cow – there AGAIN was that “non-gun-racking” sound that is so clearly audible during CAC’s NEN telephone call!!

      It sure reminded ME of an unexplained sound during CAC’s NEN call. (I don’t recall CAC’s “flashlight slapping” explanation being shown to the jury during trial.)

      And I gotta wonder if the jury noticed it, too.

  78. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    If O’Mara brings up the weed, I’m sure it will be more adults in America speaking up and calling him out on that lie because many of them smoke weed or have smoked weed in the past, so that dog don’t hunt. They don’t want to legalize it for nothing.

    Besides which, Queen Victoria smoked weed and guess what she smoked it for…medical purposes. They can research and look that up. Even most people who don’t smoke weed with any lick of common sense knows that weed does not make a person violent. It makes them mellow, laid back, giggle, and hungrier than a blind dog in a meat house.

    • Rachael says:

      I guess it all depends on who you are. You wouldn’t believe how many times I’ve seen them call Trayvon out as a drug addict thug for weed while they then relay their own experiences with it and other drugs and alcohol. I guess weed is only bad if you are a black teen.

      • Dennis says:

        The defense wants us to believe Marijuana is just like PCP or Alcohol. If it made people aggressive and violent, then hippies would be the most dangerous group in America.

        • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

          Amen, and the hippies were all about love and peace.

        • Judy A Vallejos says:

          LOL im an old hippie LO

          • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

            : ) @ Judy.

          • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

            Judy, you know what I think about sometimes, is how during that era everyone was giving peace signs, but there was no peace. Vietnam War was going on, protest against the Vietnam War, Black Power Movement, Women’s Lib Movement, and every type of Movement you could think of, but what was more odd about it was that the people were UNITED in a strange sort of way,

      • aussie says:

        Yeah, amazing how it makes him a thug, but CTH for instance claimed to know all the going prices for various quantities. As well as at least 5 recipes for “lean” and disputes about which is the most authentic etc.

    • riisey007 says:

      Yes!! this is true but don’t forget people have been talking about that THC and bag of weed remnants for over a year and they are not in the least saying that Weed never hurt anybody. These people have decided weed is bad simply because a young black boy smoked it.People have been smoking weed forever. Hell I have smoked it a few times and till managed to go to college twice and graduate. I have a wonderful job in the healthcare field. I happen to know of a very famous rapper who is worth around 110 million dollars and he smokes weed every single day of his life, we accept it, his fans consist of multicultural and multiracial backgrounds. He is the one and only Snoop Dog. Snoop is laid back, hell he smoke so much weed he could have been a professional witness for the prosecution. Perhaps we all should have been smoking some weed and learning how to become a millionaire. It is not about the weed it is about demonizing a dead teen and too many people have gotten on board to do this.

  79. kllypyn says:

    they are going to have to touch on the fact trayvon was trying to escape when he was killed.

    • willisnewton says:

      As much as we’d like to say that is fact, we don”t know that and I doubt the defense will mention it at all.

      We’ve already heard every argument they have. Get ready for a repeat performance of everything we have already seen.

      • kllypyn says:

        it’s obvious l trayvon couldn’t escape otherwise why would he scream and the hole in trayvon’s shirts say it all. i don’t buy that crap about gravity. and there’s the l shaped tears in his shirts.

  80. Judy A Vallejos says:

    does that song TOMORROW TOMORROW come to anyone’s mind besides mine??? who sings that? it was in a movie right? she is on a mountain singing it???

  81. Cynthia, TX says:

    The Boots remember the picture showing all the grass and scuff on GZ boots. The grass was short and wet. GZ had this all on the front and top of his boots…meaning at some point he was on top of TM to have gotten all that grass and stuff on his boots.

    We know TM had wet/grass stains on the back of his hoodie and his pants. The stench from them not putting them in paper bags.

    But, he did not have any wet/grass stains on his jacket or any tear marks on it. If the grass was wet and he was on the bottom (head getting bang continuously on the concrete/grass wouldn’t there be something?

    Just food for thought.

    • Puck says:

      And there was no grass on the heels of his boots. If he were doing all that shimmying, there would be grass and dirt all over.

    • uhoh says:

      There is no smearing of blood on the back of the head either and Joe Manolo states he took his photo within seconds of the gunshot.

  82. Ty Flair says:

    I’m having this feeling that O’Mara will bring up Trayvon had weed in his system to try and paint him as a thug thats why they wanted it in for. Just be prepare for it that will be the so call bombshell he will try and make it look like Tryvon was so high when he attack his client. We had a great day today but don’t get to upset when O’Mara start twisting words and lying to the jurors. Remember Guy did the opening and that was great now he will finish where he left off with the closing. MURDER2!!

    • aussie says:

      That is not allowed in.

      It has to be GIVEN IN EVIDENCE, anyway, and nobody came to give evidence about it.

      He’ll just have to paint him as a thug without the weed. The comic strip video already does, making him heaps bigger and menacing looking against an smaller and angelic GZ (which the jury can see the real one of, so won’t fall for that anyway).

      The only bombshell they can come up with now is GZ NOT SHOWING UP. .

  83. KittySP says:

    Good evening y’all. I don’t know if its been mentioned here or previous thread since it got to be a lot read. Did anyone else pick up what BDLR talked about ‘shimmy-scoot shuffle? It never dawned on me until he said it, so obviously I’m slow….”if Trayvon was mounted on GZ as he claims, with knees up to his armpits, and he scoots away from sidewalk, does the jacket rise up or would it pull down?

  84. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    I wish that I could observe the juries’ facial expressions and body language, Is there anyone else who post on here who is in the courtroom? If so, I loved to hear what they observed about the jury,

    • Puck says:

      you could ask diary73 — she was there one day.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        What about today?

        • Puck says:

          oh… summary: I heard only two were taking notes, the rest listening intently with the possible exception of the Hispanic nurse (or CNA) who’s seemed detached the whole trial, one juror put her hand over her mouth when one point was made, perhaps as if in shocked realization, and one of them gave nasty looks to GZ or MOM/West.

          • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

            I think that Hispanic nurse who seems detached is worried about her kids or finances and just wants them to get it over with and go home.

  85. Dee says:

    It looked like Zimmerman was really thinking hard as he stared at whatever he was looking at. Wonder if he is going to plead guilty to manslaughter to get a less time. West didn’t even know that the lesser charges hold the same weight 15 – 20 just for gun charges.

  86. DruDo says:

    The defense knows their client is guilty as sin and it would be so much fun if they finally crack. West would be likely to do this:

  87. IMBack says:

    Bodyy language expert in court today predicts juror E40 will be the foreperson. She was a safety officer for over 20yrs

  88. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    I have one question for this Frank Taffee…if you are such a good friend of Fogens and you know him so well, why weren’t you in court sitting in the family section to support him? Oh wait…that’s right you weren’t asked because you are NOT a close friend. It blows my mind that they keep putting you on these shows. Do you not realize that they laugh at you along with millions of viewers?

    • KateW says:

      Because his attorneys probably felt he was a liability. Have you seen his twitter? Frank Taffe is a racist a – hole! He would have brought nothing to the table. I see they didn’t bring Joe Oliver in either. But they brought his other friend Elmer Fudd, who I think, helped damage the defense.

    • ay2z says:

      He was also on the witness list for the state, therefore also on the list for the defense.

      Unless he snuck in or tried to sneak in, and is the person under investigation for violation of sequestration rule by Judge Nelson.

      • ay2z says:

        Rule of Sequestration was invoked = no witness can watch the trial any which way, until they are released after testimony which means they are no longer under subpoena and are not subject to recall.

      • He’s on HLN just about everynight.

        • Puck says:

          And, unlike Donnelly to whom JN gave the benefit of the doubt, Taaffe, who is clearly following the case, would have known from day one that the rule of sequestration had been invoked.

          • Will there be consequences?

          • Puck says:

            I don’t think so, since the trial is over and so there’s no testimony to argue be striked. So I’m starting to wonder if she would bother with Taaffe. I wonder who it is — she told the attorneys the name in a sidebar at the end of the day yesterday.

          • cielo62 says:

            Puck~ aside from the trial itself, it IS a legal violation. They should get Contempt of Court fines/jail time.


          • Puck says:

            Sure, but I don’t know if it’s really that important to them. Who knows.

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        Oh, I didn’t realize he was on the witness list. Either way he is a loser.

      • aussie says:

        YAY. Of COURSE. If he’s on the witness lists? and has been a Talking Head about it every night? BIG ONE. Nice catch, ay2z.

    • anita says:

      Frank is a crazy POS. That nutjob is mean & certifiable.

    • Woow! says:

      He was not asked to be a witness b/c MOM knew he was a CARC

  89. KA says:

    So did Bernie address the illogical reasoning for the screams being Zimmerman’s. Sorry I missed the whole day…

    Do if blood was running down his throat, he was being muffled, and he believed Trayvon to be still a threat at the shot….how does that explain ANY of the dynamics of the screaming?

    Anyway…dying to know how those were handled.

    I also hope Bernie watched that animation a hundred times last night to hit the evidence that was inconsistent with every point….I noticed in the small amount I saw, Trayvon does not have a phone in his hand. It is proven that he did….things like that.

    • whonoze says:

      He made a big point of the muffling, a minor point of the lack of blood gurgle, and didn’t really hit the ‘the-screams-end-with-the-gunshot’ point much at all, at least that I heard (I did have to take a couple bathroom breaks in there).

      • KA says:

        Guy had stressed it in the opening, hopefully he will nail it home tomorrow.

      • YQ says:

        He mentioned it, but IMO he focused more on the inconsistencies. He implied that at some point the defendant had his gun out and I think we’ll get a theory from Guy in rebuttal. He lit it up, tho.

        • Puck says:

          I’m thinking Guy will revisit a lot of what he said in his opening, but here, referring to evidence and testimony in order to support these points, such as GZ wanting to kill Trayvon, rather than having to. And I’m really hoping the button will come in as a late-game a-ha! moment for the jury.

    • aussie says:

      More importantly, the comic strip doesn’t show the GUN at all.

      Bernie did make some pointed remarks about this not being Hollywood “we don’t have animations…” so the moment defence produces theirs the jury will be prejudiced against it as being fake.

      He did the muffled thing (smothering himself while talking), Put up a display, who LOGICALLY would be screaming, the guy with the gun who followed or the guy with the skittles who RAN AWAY (gun and skittles just photographed, not written out).

      He quoted Osterman saying Trayvon was mounted with his knees up to GZ armpits. Then demonstrated it on the grey doll and shouted, twice,. How doe he get the GUN?

      He did good. He covered the lies, always with snippets from the interview tapes. Proved them with GZ own words.

      • whonoze says:

        If MOM is smart, he won’t show the animation. Just more of what the State can show as inconsistencies: How DID they wind up in John’s backyard if TM knocked GZ down at the T? MOM’s line needs to be ‘George was stunned and traumatized, so he doesn’t remember the details right, and there’s your reasonable doubt on the entirety of Mr. dlR’s closing argument.’

        • Woow! says:

          Shhhhhhheee don’t tell the defense thier video will convict CAC, let them show it.

          • ic2fools says:

            lol Woow!

            Omar doesn’t realize the word animation is thought of ‘fantasy films’ which is bad taste in a murder trial. It holds no facts.

            Well except is show how far fogen went from his truck ‘In Search Of ‘Yetis’ Address’

            Omar in front of court had the nerve to ask Twitchy could he ‘fix it’ that night.

            Poor Lil’ Twitchy twitchin’ went into overload. Ah ah ah blink blink, well well ‘NO’!

        • cielo62 says:

          whonoze~ SSSHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! Don’t give them any ideas!


  90. smokeegyrl says:


    get to voting folks… look 56% saying no… that says prosecution has not proven their case… probably all of the Carole Green’s group

  91. whonoze says:

    I guess I’m in the minority here, in that I continue to maintain that the far more significant criminals in this sorry affair are Norm Wolfinger, Bill Lee, the blue-curtain of the corrupt SPD, and the NRA lobbyists responsible not only for the SYG law, but the FL self-defense statutes that put an unreasonable burden of proof on the State (which, if I understand Prof. Leatherman and other legal commentators correctly, is not the case in other states).

    I have mixed feelings about the amount of my time I have devoted to this case. I want it to be over, so I have no excuse for getting on with something else (anything else) for the rest of my life. But I am now faced with a reasonable prospect that it won’t be over…

    If Zimmerman is convicted, that will be the end of things. No higher authority will investigate, and there will be no civil suit against Zimmerman for the simple reason that he will have no tangible assets.

    As much as I would like some closure now for personal reasons, I have to entertain the thought that an acquittal would bring greater scrutiny to that more powerful and institutionalized set of villains. If GZ gets off, he’ll have plenty of opportunity to cash in on his ‘thug extermination.’ Book contracts, personal appearances for conservative causes, maybe even a regular gig as a talking head on Fox or HLN (sorry Frank, we’ve got the real deal, now). A successful wrongful death suit by the Martin family would put the kibosh on all of that.

    And I have confidence that as part of any such lawsuit Mr.s Parks and Crump would have no problem exposing the SPD for both their willful incompetence and their CYA corruptions. I would very much like to see that happen. (I have no confidence, alas, that any official investigation by the Feds will be forthcoming under any circumstances.)

    So, perhaps the outcome of this trial is win-win, AND lose-lose, no matter what verdict the jury brings back…

    • cielo62 says:

      whonoze~ I join you in that minority because I believe bureaucracies protect each other. THIS trial MIGHT bring some light to just the SPD, which SHOULD be cleaned out like an infected boil, but won’t be. The bigger disease is the south’s own racism and inability to come to terms with its history so that it can move into its future. It’s up to people in FLORIDA to work to clean up their OWN state, now that the ugly scars and sick puss has been shown for all to see.


      • vickie s. votaw says:

        It is that way here in Virginia also but I did hear on the radio that 58% of Virginians support same sex marriage, so that is changing

        • cielo62 says:

          vickie~ GOOD! I intend to retire to Maryland where my spouse of 20 years (this August 15, to be exact) and I can be married. 12 down, too many to go!


        • DruDo says:

          In VA here, also and I’ve read nearly the same statistics. Attitudes are changing in that respect and I support that enlightenment.

        • Malisha says:

          I don’t think the same-sex marriage branch of civil rights is the same as the voting rights and life interest branch of civil rights, though. It’s a long long exhausting topic and I won’t go into it but the gay rights thing has produced a “minority” that has outstripped all other minorities in terms of political power in just a few decades and the real reason is money and the “white men” contingent. No other movement has had a sizeable powerful “white men” component. Gay rights had that component only for one reason: they could stay in the closet and use their power and money while others (women, Blacks, immigrants, etc.) didn’t even HAVE closets. I don’t see Virginia changing. I have seen worse things in the Commonwealth of Virginia than almost any other state (possibly than Florida and/or Texas) and it’s not getting any better as far as I can see. There are little pockets of “exceptions to rules” here and there but by in large, a wasteland of hostility, gun-crazed cowboyitude, racism, misogyny and ignorance.

          • cielo62 says:

            Malisha~ You just explained Texas to a T! I can’t imagine Virginia to be worse than here.


        • Jun says:

          i honestly feel gays have it easier than people of color

          a gay person can at least publicly hide the fact they are gay

          if you are black, asian or latino, you can’t really hide that fact

          Just saying it is easier to discriminate against people of color

    • Jasmine says:

      I know what you mean. The SPD was so wrong and they should be held accountable for that. The buck does not stop with Fogen. They helped cover up his crime and endorsed what he did.

    • ks says:

      Well said look at the totality of the big picture.

      Though I think if, God forbid, GZ gets off, he will quickly learn the difference between fame and infamy. His 15 minutes are almost up.

    • EdgySF says:

      “If Zimmerman is convicted, that will be the end of things.

      How ya figure?

      Do we have to march again?

      I want to know exactly what Wolfy’s involvement was.

      • whonoze says:

        If GZ is convicted that will be narrative closure enough for the culture as a whole, and public attention will turn to other matters. The Martin family will also have a form of closure in seeing their son’s killer put behind bars for a very long time, and probably won’t be up for a civil suit even if there was a point to it, which there wouldn’t be. Most of the people who post here will be letting out war whoops and thanking The Almighty. We will have the illusion of full and proper justice, when in reality that justice will be fractional to the conditions that enabled GZ to kill Trayvon Martin and think he could get away with it.

        • cielo62 says:

          whonoze~ All you say is certainly true. Racerrodig is even having a huge Celebratory BBQ at his place in New Jersey. BUT MY POINT is that once “we” see justice done in this case, we must turn to justice IN OUR OWN STATES or cities. Do you know why America is so despised worldwide? Because we do NOT mind our own business. We try to GIVE people something that they need to fight and earn for themselves: freedom, democracy and self respect. Once this trial is over, each of us, wherever we live, must continue to fight for justice wherever we are.


          • RobUK says:

            “War is a racket. It always has been.

            It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small “inside” group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.

            I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”

            Major General Smedley Darlington Butler.

        • Malisha says:

          Unless this is the test case for the life interest, not a shred of cover-up will be unraveled.

    • aussie says:

      If he gets off they can STILL sue him in a civil case, so….

      Exposing the wrong-doer LE? that’s not as simple as one single court case. They can simply lie, like they’ve done before. They can’t subpoena all their files, or guarantee any of them would not be shredded. A lot of this institutionalised corruption is not written down, anyway., “Everyone knows” what to do, and that’s it. And no-one will blow the whistle if they want to survive in it. Or in extreme cases, just to survive.

      And it spreads a lot further than Sanford. From what I’ve seen about other places this past year, it is nationwide. So even a successful “proof” in this tiny town won’t put an end to it.

      This one case will not clean up America. It is futile to dream that it could.

      It can get Justice for Trayvon and be a warning to other wannabes and vigilantes. I believe we’ll get that justice.

      Whonoze, we can see it as personal closure. Or as personal opening for taking on other such cases, as a group. Maybe more for the defence than for the prosecution, as many more minority people are badly done by with false arrests. I don’t know what can be done, but what’s wrong with crowd-sourcing justice? crowd-sourcing digging into evidence some overworked public defender has no time for?

    • willisnewton says:

      I sympathize greatly but have a slightly different view. The march of time and the dignified fight that the Martin family brought to this is what matters. Since this case hit the news, no new state has passed any SYG laws. Bonaparte fired Bill Lee. Norm Wolfinger, an elected official quietly announced he would not run for re-election. They are out of power, and out of work.

      The president of the USA spoke out about his concern for the case and what it means, and the DoJ made a small show of federal response and thru this managed to help put pressure, the pressure brought to bear by 2 million internet petition signers, to have the governor of a backwards state at least try to do the right thing and appoint a special prosecutor. The great weight of the state’s FDLE and a team of good lawyers put on a case for M2 and the world is watching it.

      Who made a difference? Two million people learned they have the power to put pressure onto a bad situation and get results. Hopefully that’s two million and more who learned a lesson.

      The struggle continues. Did the (real) bad guys get away? Don’t they always? The struggle continues.

      GZ is small potatoes. He’s a garden variety loser and his life is over any way the verdict comes down. Put him in the minus column, and soon the dustbin of history, and put the two million plus who petitioned and peacefully demonstrated into another. And put the Martin family on a pedestal for all-time in the grace under fire and dignity hall of fame. Forget the lawyers, all of them. Especially the defense lawyers. They do their jobs and get paid. Some are good and some are good at what they do. No one should feign surprise however at anything they do or say. We knew this was going to be a bumpy road. (Forget it Jake, it’s chinatown.)

      I agree the larger case deserved a full and credible OUTSIDE (that means federal) investigation that dragged Wolfinger and Bill Lee into the Florida sunshine, and more importantly dragged ALEK and the SYG laws into same. But on some levels the latter happened. The struggle continues.

      This was all a sideshow if people don’t wise up and take a lesson from it, and I mean everyone who was touched by this case, be it treeslum or me and you, whonoze. Many of the intolerant will never be redeemed in this lifetime. But the best we can hope its that when they crawl out into public , people recognize them for what they are, which is Human slime. Slime evolves eventually to a higher life form but it takes time. The struggle continues. Each time a racist has to get on a soapbox, they get marked for what they are. Good for us. Hopefully we can cross the street when we have to pass them, and don’t suffer the fate of Trayvon Martin when he did the same. Mark them for what they are and shame them into their compounds, I guess.

      But what about us? What can we learn here? How can this case change us and what we feel and think? We can evolve, too I hope from this. We’ve seen the power we have when we crowd source, and organize and work and play well with one another. But could we have done more? Should we have done more? Let’s keep discussing these issues.

      • whonoze says:

        Thanks for the substantive and well-thought-out response willis. Good points all around.

      • EdgySF says:

        I live in Orlando. If Fogen’s found guilty, that will be a huge wake up call for this slow town. Trust me.

        America’s psyche changed ever so slightly upon Obama’s election. Despite the tea partiers, we have the momentum.

        It will bring healing…and a bright future…to my home state that I sometimes truly love

    • ic2fools says:

      your not alone whonoze, i am that same minority as you.

      fogen is the sacrifice for SPD. if not then the other nite interview of billy lee he would not have said the investigation was hijacked.

      from the onset billy lee always said it was clear cut SYG and so did wolfinger.

      now billy is saying he wasn’t finished with the investigation, bull chips billy. because as of 2/27/2012 billy lee was finished and was winding down SPD to finish the investigation. wolf signed and billy co-signed to close the door on this murder.

      so now to have fogen convicted they think it all will pass over.

  92. ay2z says:

    Off topic, but related to the wrap up concerns of this trial. Judge NElson is investigating an ‘unnamed’ witness who was not called to testify but who may have violated the rule of sequestration.

    Will this investigation have to be revealed before the jury gives their decision?

    Obviously if the person (or persons) did not testify, they can’t have an effect on the trial, unless this violation had something to do with not being called.

    • Hi, Ay2z!

      Who is Judge Nelson speaking about?

      • ay2z says:

        Someone on the witness list, she said she was not going to say a name.

        Tjos happened in the Donnolly and John Good discussions, but it was not any of the named witnesses.

        That’s all she said. The WFTV video has cut off the first part, it’s not on the Part 14. MOM continues talking immediately after she says this, to say he will put the John Good issue to rest and that he did not m eet with Schumaker.

        This is something that JN interjected as being the same rule of sequestration topic. They would have gone up to the bench later and been told who was under investigation. So we don’t know.

        • Unabogie says:

          It’s Jeremy, IMO. Schumacher let out that he consulted with Jeremy, and he was described by Nelson as a) someone on both witness lists, and b) someone who hadn’t actually testified.

          So my guess is it’s Jeremy.

        • jodiwankanobi says:

          maybe shellie, she was never going to testify, knew the sequester rules and asked one of their witnesses to go to court

      • ic2fools says:

        JUN-YER! I do remember in omar presser he was asked about jun-yer would he testify.

        even though fogen sr. got it in the box, he was asked a ‘few very limited questions. i believe fogen sr is involved.

  93. elcymoo says:

    I missed several parts of Bernie’s presentation today because of visitors, but I thought that one of the most important things he did was talk TO the jurors, not at them. I never once saw him condescend to them or imply that they weren’t capable of understanding the facts he was laying out for them, whether those facts were neatly arranged in chronological order or not. Both West and O’Mara (and some of their expert witnesses) have disrespected the jury members’ intelligence and professional capabilities on several occasions.

    I heard one ot the pundits/legal analysts on MSNBC say that two of the jurors were taking lots of notes during Bernie’s closing, but the rest were paying very close attention.

    • KateW says:

      Thank you. EXactly. Some folks on the board were saying that he should have this or that but I think he was very effective. We should not, as Bernie says, assume these folks do not or cannot follow his logic. He did good.

    • whonoze says:

      The odd thing about Bernie’s presentation was that the delivery did not match the content. Stylistically, he was in his standard hyperbolic bulldog mode, basically shouting at the jury… (insert voice ID expert joke here)

      But the substance of his words were Socratic. He kept asking the jury questions instead of making declarative statements, and he kept saying ‘you decide.’

      From what I understand, this is not a typical rhetorical strategy for lawyers to take. Trial attorneys typically don’t want to leave the thinking up to the jury, and instead spell everything out for them. That’s certainly what Bill Scheaffer expected BDLR to do.

      If the style and substance don’t cancel each other out, there’s a chance (I can’t say how large) that the Socratic approach will be effective: that BDLR will have planted the idea that ‘GZ’s lies prove his guilt’ powerfully enough that the jury will take it upon themselves to make their own inquiry into GZ’s relative veracity and medacity. If so, they might well come up with a number of the lies Bernie didn’t mention. Which would be all the more powerful in their thinking because they will feel they came up with them on their own.

      • Puck says:

        I find this rhetorical technique effective when he asks a question that is the most likely and supported by the evidence, then asks “or, [ridiculous, highly improbable, and/or unsubstantied GZ lie]? You decide.” Is it this, the most likely and supported by the evidence? Or is it part of the GZ scenario?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        A jury who doesn’t know the case evidence backwards and forwards nor has has 16 months to consider it has to connect a lot of dots to come to a solid conclusion. So BDLR is probably right to encourage the jury to doubt Fogen’s stories and to look closer and decide rather than have taken the more traditional stance of “proving” their case. There’s as much or more circumstantial evidence as direct evidence in this case.

  94. colin black says:

    willisnewton says:

    July 11, 2013 at 4:44 pm

    I feel Bernie did okay for a country lawyer. He managed to SAY that GZ was a liar plenty of times. I would have preferred however that he PROVED him a liar instead.

    And as far as an organizing principal, he could have gone in chronological order more.

    It’s important to know that GZ never parked at the clubhouse parking lot. It’s important to know that he found TM at the mail kiosk and trolled it, then doubled back to face the kiosk, where the teen walked past him – the only place possible to reconcile the timing of the NEN call is for him to have been exactly where he himself marked on a map, before crossing it out to tell the lie about circling the vehicle.

    Then it’s important to KNOW and PROVE that after TM passed the vehicle, GZ moved his car during the NEN call – as he admits – (just not where – he lies) causing the teen to run at just the time the call between he and Rachael Jentel is cut off. It’s important to know that the reason the teen ran was to get off the roadway as a MOVING CAR was following him.

    It’s also important to know that GZ NEVER told SPD that the teen ran. He ONLY told the NEN operator, and then tried to omit, obscure and obfuscate it later in his many inconsistent and contradictory statements regarding the matter.

    In fact if you see it in chronological order, many of the lies and inconsistencies start to make sense, including why he had to say he was INSTRUCTED to move TWICE. He was caught in a lie about being at the clubhouse parking lot and had to double down on his earlier lie. There is no instruction to move on the NEN call. So why say it happened twice? Because he was caught in his own tangles web of lies.

    And so on and so on.

    I;ve spent four minutes typing this. I wish Bernie had spent at least that time organizing his silly powerpoint presentation.

    Theres so much that we know that never made it front of the jury

    Via evidence an as evidence however

    Most if not all will have mimmilised there knowlage off events dureing voire dire.

    COME ON!

    This we know as a Dan Tooting Fact

    Every single prospect jourour practicly sad oh no vaugeley heard about it

    But then never paid it much more notice or concern after that.

    Well if you believe that I got a brige to sell you.

    Theres more than enough knowlage to convict amongst thos e Six Women

    The WORST IS Theres a stealth raceist an we get a hung jury

    • colin black says:

      An unbiased afir jury will convict this I know an if a Trayvonete did sneak on board this Jury theres no way they would let five white raceist ladys let hat p o s walk

      This I know

      But I feel a an honest jury will return an honest verdict.

      Some may even have a slight compassion for foggagge because he such an idiot its almost pityifull pityfool

      But that wont cut him know slack for his cowardly attack.

      An all of the flack his an other haters have spat.

      r I p tray justice is on its way.

  95. KateW says:

    Bernie humanized him with the going to the store and buying a drink and candy, he had $40 in his pocket, he had a button on his shirt, he planned to go home and hang out with his little brother, said he was walking in the rain on his way home after doing a very normal thing.

    Very methodical.

  96. KateW says:

    So Bernie began with a kind of speech. Ha! The defense thought they had nothing until he started pulling out the videos, the evidence, timeline, walkthrough, his very bloody picture, SPD interrogation, what the witnesses said etc.

    I am watching it again. I think he was very methodical in what he did.

  97. Woow! says:

    I can see CAC in jail talking about “what’s yo problem homie”…. then get stole on BAM you my problem before he say another word.

    Did I get the ending to his movie script right?

  98. Girlp says:

    I did not get to hear BLDR’s close, working with a sister company and away from my office, though I did see comments from you all from time to time can’t remember if I posted anything today…getting old. Can someone give me a good link to today’s close I will have to watch it in a few have to get dinner started.

  99. boyd says:

    JN tell Fogen to stop shaking his head , he passed on testifying. He’s trying to testify without taking the stand and answering questions

  100. Woow! says:

    CAC will break down and cray like a baby when the guilty verdict is read. Hopefully he will have 35 to infinity to fight with grown black men instead of young black boys.

  101. Woow! says:

    Who is think MOM is a f-in a-hole….teee heee

    I bet CAC will be calling MOM and W all kinds of coons and f-in a-holes tonight after that beat down they got in court today.

  102. Woow! says:

    Boyd says:
    July 11, 2013 at 2:01 pm
    what part of UH?

    He currently lives next to Reliant Stadium but I do not want my daughter having to come home by herself at night over there.

    I want them to stay within a 10 mile radius from campus.

    You are right. Houston layout if funny. One minute your on a street with mini mansions, the next a run down house of junkies. I hate driving through the 3rd Ward.

    • boyd says:

      hey that’s near where I lived in Bellaire. Reliant is okay on the that side of the Highway.

      I see, then you may want the Hospital/Rice U area about 1-2 mile away.

      She may be able to take an express bus to school and it’s a very populated area. They do a good job with express buses.
      I would not be surprised if they had buses going from light train stops to the school.

      • cielo62 says:

        boyd~ Hmmm… I live in Katy but used to drive by that area every day. Houston is a sprawling mess. Those toy trains don’t do much to alleviate traffic.


    • boyd says:

      3rd ward… is that all the little white board houses? with few stores around? who the congressman, some guy,. not shelia jackson lee.

      • Woow! says:

        3rd Ward on one side is ghetto and on the other side little Mexico and both are a hot damn mess. The blacks are country ignorant and the Mexicans pretend they can’t speak English and knowt the language better than I do.

  103. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Begin at timestamp 1:15

    Well, I better get a little housework done–

  104. colin black says:

    theres a new post up init?

  105. colin black says:

    Will foggagge bee sentenced an hear victim impact statements as soon as his guilt is confirmed.

    Or will J Nelson allow a month for say reports an mitigation?

    Say a couple of weeks?

    An then he is hauled back into court for sentanceing an impact statements

    An if given the chance to speak before sentence any one think he will mutter more than

    No gulp Mam?

    • aussie says:

      They won’t have any of that,Colin. Mandatory sentencing. Judge has very little choice. Also where it’s not mandatory minimums, they have mitigation hearings, where the defendant can put in his sob story about how his awful life pushed him into doing it.

      Fred will tell me I’m wrong, soon enough. Good.

      He may speak whether asked to or not. I am sure it will be along the lines of “it’s not fair”.

    • Malisha says:

      He’ll remind us that he loves his children (who haven’t even been born yet!) and that he sincerely wishes he had not been the cause of divisiveness that hurt America. (Oh if only everybody simply supported HIM and wasn’t being divisive.)

  106. colin black says:

    pork que says:

    July 11, 2013 at 4:26 pm

    That family is filled with sociopaths whose lies and actions are a danger to society. I suspect generational incest played some role.


    disappointed says:

    July 11, 2013 at 4:46 pm

    🙂 Pork que I do not believe you are far off.


    Yes they are a very tedious FAMa laze

    Where they insestious?


    And realitvely boreing.

    But theres relatively boreing

    An theres boreing the Realatives

    And then there BOREING the reltives.

    One things for sure there was no life gaurds present at the edge of the Zimmerman family gene pool.

    If you insist there indulged in inceset I will not detest.

    Besides Ive hears in some cultures Insest is legal as long as you keep it with in the family.

  107. crazy1946 says:

    How many of you noticed the three (or four) big security type people that were escorting the Fogdoit into the court and left with him at the end? The real question that I should ask, are they to protect the Fogdoit from other people or to protect him from what he might do?

    • colin black says:

      Well he will get free security gaurds to the


      An then he is on his own homes sweet homles.

    • Judy A Vallejos says:


      I wondered that myself

      funny im not the only one


    • cielo62 says:

      crazy~ I really believe that they are security from the BONDSMAN to secure his one million dollars from running away.

    • aussie says:

      They’re the guys who have $1milion invested in his bail that they lose if he skips.

      • crazy1946 says:

        It would not surprise me if he chewed off his own leg in an effort to avoid his just punishment! It has not been shown anywhere in his history that he has accepted responsibility for his actions, so why expect him to do so now!

    • Thrace says:

      Possibly the bondsmen and also there was a bomb threat at the Sanford Civil Courthouse today (different court from Zimmerman;s). Read a tweet from a WFTV reporter who said the Chief of Police thought it might have occurred to direct security away from the criminal courthouse.

      • crazy1946 says:

        I suppose in some ways they want to blame this on the black people in the area that are going to do all these huge riots if the Fogdoit is acquitted! What a bunch of racist fools, they still think the “New Black Panthers” will send a million of their members to Florida as well!

        • Thrace says:

          They arrested a 68 year old White man last year for death threats against Chief Lee and his family. But you never hear the media talk about him. He’s the type (crazy lone wolf) that people should be frightened of.

        • Dennis says:

          Did you know that it was the FBI that wrote the sick twisted cartoons for the New Black Panther party. I could not even look at them because they were that disturbing. When you realize the FBI did this, you will know that the government and power elite play a major role in the racial division of America.

          COINTELPRO still exists today. They infiltrate truth movement groups with the sole purpose of gaining intelligence on them and discrediting them.

  108. Judy A Vallejos says:

    does anyone else notice how much that blonde lady from hln smiles as Bernie does his closing? she the one sitting behind the stuztman lady ?

  109. gldgirl63 says:

    sorry i meant to say a person doesn’t have to have injuries to claim self defense…..so by the jury not being able to read his mind or thoughts…..and to make his claim of self defense more believable is to show some blood….to make his story more believable….(there i think i said if right this time)…… lol

  110. smokeegyrl says:

    I just watched the ending… Did you see Fogen shake his head at Bernie. that was the highlighted… To me Bernie got to Fogen. at last at last…

    • crazy1946 says:

      smokeegyrl, I read that just a little differently than you did, I actually think (I know that is not allowed) that he was shaking his head in disbelief that he had be caught in a web of lies and had no way out, it was shock on his part that caused him to do it…..

      • cielo62 says:

        crazy~ You can think all you like here. Remember, you’re NOT at the Outhouse!

        • crazy1946 says:

          cielo62, I know that, but thanks for the reminder! However over the last several days I have had to back up and make sure that some how I did not end up on the Tree Sewer accidently, because of all the hate and words and discontent that was being exhibited here! Hopefully this will all self correct now. Y’all have a wonderful evening and keep the faith, all will be done as it is supposed to….

          • cielo62 says:

            crazy~ yes, that’s true. It got ugly last night. I debated coming back today. But the goal is in sight.  I never doubted but got very angry at all the doom and gloom posters.


      • smokeegyrl says:

        I also read that… that is exactly how I read that what did I type… that’s how I meant it when Bernie got to Fogen…

        • crazy1946 says:

          We said the same thing, just used different words! I started to be ornery and say “You done good for a Girl”, but then not wanting to commit internet suicide, I decided not tooooooooo…… 🙂

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Can you imagine the moment when gz saw BDLR skipping toward him?

      Ha! Talking about an in your face moment!

      • Judy A Vallejos says:

        yes that was good

        I so wish Bernie would have skipped right on over there and actually hit him into reality with that doll

      • anita says:

        The “skipping” by Bernie was a really funny touch, just showed how ridiculous fogens lie was. LOL

        • Malisha says:

          When he said it on Hannity (I forced myself to watch that shit!) I dissolved into hysterics. “not from fear” “skipping” “Homie” “God’s plan” “trying to smother me” “angry because I called the police on him” “looks like he’s up to no good” — this guy says lines that sound like they come from a poorly written high school melodrama!

    • dr. koura gibson says:

      I saw that! They just showed it on the news. At that moment he felt a jolt!

    • Sleuth says:

      ~ smokeegyrl

      Yes I did. He did it at least twice. He did it when BDLR was “skipping” in front of the courtroom, in reference to the Hannity tape. Illustrating to the jury how he told Hannity Trayvon was not running away from him but skipping

      Then he shook his head as BDLR pointed at him while telling the jurors, “He is a man guilty of second degree murder”.

      He was obviously disturbed by this.

  111. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    Professor, I have a tweet with a nice picture of Trayvon and Jahvaris from Sybrina Fulton’s twitter stuck in moderation, can you let it out? Pretty please?

  112. KateW says:

    I surmise that Guy will summarize it neatly. Bernie gave them a taste, probably not as neat but effective and coherent enough. I understood him just fine as did many of you, and I am sure the jury had no problem understanding him. I am sure they are intelligent people and just like many of us could understand Rachel Jeantel, I have no doubt they had no problem understanding Bernie.

  113. sparger says:

    This may be the first time that idiots family has really looked at the evidence. I think they bought Georges dumb story hook line and sinker.

    • anita says:

      That is entirely possible, never tho’t about that.

    • Woow! says:

      I disagree. I think they knew and didn’t care because the victim was black. They got involved with Sundance “grocey clerk lawyer” Cracker and started a blitz campaign to destroy the character of an innocent child hoping that enough like minded folks would get on the jury and free their new buddy.

      After the parents saw how much money CAC was generating from his website, what was the first thing they did, started their own.

      • Thrace says:

        His parents are no different than about 95% of the parents/family of guilty defendants. I’ve seen too much trials where they defend their loved even if there is video of the murder or they confessed to it. I do think they got caught up in Sundance’s BS and that bolstered them to do the book and begging websites.

        • anita says:

          I don’t have any children, but I think if I did, I would Quietly stand by them. To turn your back on them would be wrong. To beg for money Is completely wrong.

          • KA says:

            I have 7 kids and if one murdered or abused another and I found out about it. I would turn them in. I would still love them and support them, but I would not, in any way, condone what they did or testify that I felt it okay.

            I love my children too much to aid illegal, immoral behavior that hurts or destroys another.

        • Dennis says:

          If I had a child and they killed somebody, I would have no problem letting justice prevail. Family or not, people have to be held accountable and be punished for their actions. It must be hard to give up on your own child, but at some point you need to face reality and show some respect for the victim.

      • anita says:

        Who is sundance cracker? I’ve heard of him but don’t really know. The parents are clearly racist. They are greedy, money grubbers too. Just for curiousity, I went to the treehouse this a.m. for the 1st &last time. I saw the Lords Prayer for the fogen family & I was off that disgusting site. They’re nuts.

        • Thrace says:

          The guy who runs that website you went to. He’s the lead racist and conspiracy nut. Always kills me to see the religious quotes and videos over there when their main mantra is hate for others they don’t agree with or live the way they above of. Plus I know Sundance is a hypocrite – he has a boat load of personal issues and his big talk about accountability and family is laughable.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          I don’t like the Treestump support of a man who did not kill in self-defense and the politics surround this support, but I think it’s okay and even necessary to pray for everyone, or to wish them enlightenment or transformation. One of the most important prayers in Tibetan Buddhism goes like this:

          All mother sentient beings,
          Especially those enemies who hate me,
          Obstructors who harm me,
          And those who create obstacles on my path to liberation and all-knowingness-
          May they experience happiness, be separated from suffering,
          And swiftly will I establish them in the state of unsurpassed, perfect, complete and precious Buddhahood.

          • Vickis Smith says:

            Beautiful. And Christians are taught to love and pray for our enemies, do good to those who persecute us. We are to hate the sin, but love the sinner. Not always easy, I’m afraid.

    • Sleuth says:

      ~ KA

      I’m feeling you, and share your sentiments. I pray I never have to go through such a tragedy.

  114. gldgirl63 says:

    someone correct me if i am wrong……part of self defense and imeninate fear….(according to the law of fl….) a person does not have fear…the thought that plays in my mind since closing…we cannot see or read g.z mind…….and in order for him to claim self defense… he has to make it look convincing as well…..thus show some blood……in hopes that ppl will not doubt his story…….

    • aussie says:

      Exactly. But he couldn’t find enough blood for that, while he had to keep escalating the seriousness of how he was attacked. So the more he said, the less it matched with the little bit of blood on him. Plus he figured the cops would take his side anyway, him being a wannabe well known to them.

      • gldgirl63 says:

        i want to see how the defense will come back on this….i also think what ever points he missed….i hope will be cleaned up on when guy gets up……

      • Vickis Smith says:

        I expected the prosecution to have had some expert testimony that even the most minor of head wounds tend to bleed a lot. You would think, however, most of us would know this by experience.

  115. YQ says:

    Fogen cried in court… that means the Prosecution is on the right track now. HOODIES UP!!!

  116. Rachael says:

    Don’t y’all forget that John Guy has the last word. They haven’t shown their full hand. If Bernie did the time line today, the defense could change their “story” for their argument tomorrow. Bernie got in what he needed to and tomorrow Mr. Guy can put it all in chronological order, give the timeline, add any details necessary and give it to them all nice and neat.

    • KateW says:

      I think Guy will do well.

    • cielo62 says:

      Rachael~ I don’t see HOW the duhfense could get anything slapped together overnight. They look too old to be doing all-nighters to get a project together. They have been outplayed at nearly every turn.

      • Thrace says:

        They’re going to hold up those pics of GZ’s bleeding head a lot, rely on that animation video and talk about what a fat frightened weakling GZ is.

    • Bernie placed O’Mara on defense (1) by proving that the defendant lied many times about many important matters and (2) by offering a simple all encompassing reason to explain why he lied.

      The jury is going to be looking to O’Mara to explain why they should believe anything the defendant said that is not supported by independent credible information.

      O’Mara cannot win a debate regarding his client’s credibility.

      • YQ says:

        Exactly, Professor! If it didn’t happened the way Fogen said it did, then there is no way it could be self-defense. They took his claim off the table and left the defense with little to fall back on. O’Mara will have to take this head on.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        “O’Mara cannot win a debate regarding his client’s credibility.”

        Though I worried about BDLR’s rambling style, this case did start with credibility, both when we discovered Fogen’s differing stories and when he and his wife concealed money and his good passport, so it truly is fitting that BDLR left the jury with a picture of Fogen’s lack of credibility.

        I’m relieved that you’re pointing out the strength of this approach.

        • Prosecutors usually spend the majority of their time during the first closing argument reviewing and discussing the jury instructions and their burden of proof. Rebuttal usually is devoted to refuting the fact arguments asserted by the defense in their closing argument.

          Even though the prosecution must disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt, the success of a self-defense claim usually depends on the defendant’s credibility.

          By introducing the defendant’s statements during their case-in-chief, the State controlled the order and manner in which the statements were presented. In a case rich with irony, the State appropriated the defendant’s voice to make its case against him, such that the jury only knows him by his defining characteristic. To them he likely is and will remain a devious and manipulative liar.

          O’Mara is unlikely to find any sympathy when he faces the jury tomorrow morning.

          Assuming I have accurately assessed the current state of the jury, Bernie de la Rionda’s somewhat unconventional tactical decision to destroy the defendant’s credibility during the State’s first closing may turn out to be the difference between winning or losing the trial.

          No matter what O’Mara says during his closing argument, the State gets to have the last word.

          Rebuttal is a great insurance policy.

          • ic2fools says:

            To think Omar will be using that animation to show their theory. One thing and the only thing I see and speaks volumes in that animation is how far fogen had walked from his car to ‘look for an address, ehem meet an officer he had called’. When there was an address right in front of him or he could have driven to the other ‘address’.

            Fogen looked disgusted and angry yesterday. He wanted to get in the box and battle Bernie

            States’ Rebuttal will be the final reflection for the jury to hear before deliberations.

            I sincerely hope that the State picks apart Omar/West non-factual theory CGI animation.

            The word itself animation in a murder trial is a big fail.

      • Yorazigo says:

        Way back after the second bond hearing MOM said himself GZ was not credible.

  117. KateW says:

    Skeletor’s interview with Anderson Cooper yesterday is proof they had no idea what the state was going to bring up. He thought they might just bring up the way he said the expletives and get sympathy because Trayvon was a child, speaks to how grossly underestimated the state was today. The state didn’t just talk about this and that, they showed the jury. They played his words, they showed what he says happened, they presented the forensic evidence in conjunction with what he says happened and what the forensics says actually happened.

    Just as I had said, the state did not want to show their hand at trial but showed it today. So the defense has 16 hours to refute and rebutt their client has said and done.

    • Sabrina B. says:

      Seems you were correct about the state. I am sure they will come up with some B.S. to counter. Might even try to bring in ‘Mr. Wonderful’ again.

  118. colin black says:

    Toomorow is only 58 mins away in the UK Its almost Friday.

  119. tashatexas77048 says:

    My early.thoughts on the closing was that BDLR was doing entirely too much ranting and ad libs and therefore his delivery was very.disjointed. It also irritated me that several times he called TM a man but in retrospect I think he did it on purpose because anyone listening knows TM was a young boy, calling him a man is actually shocking and the gut reaction is to immediately place him in a boy’s category. I think BDLR was doing that by calling him a man and then following it up with young boy.

    The second half was much better and he made some excellent points but he started rushing thru his presentation and.that.sucked.

    Overall there is no way the jurors left the courthouse without a negative view of the cowardly Defendant.

    • newmediacounsel says:

      I find comments like yours strange. And didn’t you just pot above when your analysis. So why are you claiming this is your first comment on the subject?

    • crazy1946 says:

      tashatexas, It’s good to see you back down on the ground again! Hang in there it will all work out ok! 🙂

    • Sabrina B. says:

      Yes. There could be no doubt that he did not look like the sleaze bag he is. Nothing wrong with changing your mind either. I was fearful before closing too and was put at ease after his arguments. from what I was able to see, so I feel you there. I’m still waiting for the video because I did not see much of the end but, as I said he hit points that our own common sense as laymen caught onto earlier on.

    • Sleuth says:

      ~ Hi ya Babygirl (tashatexas)

      Good to see you here. Nice catch! I missed that one. You brought up some excellent points.

      My grandchildren have been following this trial, and have been asking me when is it going to be over. I keep telling them when God says it’s over.

      After today’s session I told them we would know something soon. They said, “Man o’ Man, God sure is taking a long time, I wish he’d hurry up”. :-).

      And I see you finally put that fire under BDLR. You go guurrrrl!

      Keep your chin and Hoodie Up!

  120. Judy A Vallejos says:

    wow I am surprised that some would want an orderly timely organization of so so many lies and untruths

    there are so many and they are so scattered about because that is what they are lies and more lies to cover lies already lied and cant remember this one or that one so tell this one

    oh my goodness there are so many untruths

    well here you go

    zimmerass shot and killed Trayvon for no reason other than being a young black male and not bowing down to him when it was demanded of him

    that is the truth and god will see to it that his plan is fulfilled and in his own son’s name this will be done

    that is all the organization I need

    I cant wait for tomorrow…

    Hoodies Up!!!

  121. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    • elle says:

      What’s wrong, SmokeeGyrl?

      • smokeegyrl says:

        elle, I just talk to my brother, the one with cancer, he knows that I’m going through tests.. and for the first time in his life… he wanted to talk to me without calling me Darlene… he said.. Hi sissy… then he said… that we have take what God gives us… for me to stay calm… that he has to live a new lifestyle… and that he loves me… *tear*

        • pork que says:

          You just made me cry … your brother sounds awesome, as do you.

        • elle says:

          SmokeeGyrl, you really are in storm right now aren’t you. I am so sorry that you are. I hope you and your brother are better and get good news soon. Try to get some rest. We are here for you.

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:

          Love and hugs, smokeegyrl.

        • cielo62 says:

          smokeegyrl~ (((((((((HUGS)))))))))) I’m sure I speak for many here, we’ll still be around if you need us even after the trial. Stay strong. I’m sending my love as well as a few purrs from my cats (I hear they have healing properties)

        • fauxmccoy says:

          smokeegyrl — unlike most, i can honestly say ‘i know how you feel’. twice before age 40, i have had to wait for the pathology reports to confirm what my oncologist knew and warned me to expect. twice. the waiting is agony and having a family member going through the same is rough too.

          what i do know is that somehow, we do get through these times, whether it is our faith, our support network or internal settings. survival rates have improved across the board. i hope you have answers soon, because answers come with solutions and options. i hope that if the answer confirms your fears that you have learned this early and that you have good care available.

          hang in there, i know it sucks and the waiting is truly the hardest part.

      • changsterdj says:

        I felt they should cover the fact that Fogen was a stranger to all the witnesses and the biggest lie is Fogen trying to steal Trayvon’s voice

        • Two sides to a story says:

          I wish BDLR would have said that Fogen not only lied, he tried to steal Trayvon’s voice.

    • crazy1946 says:

      (((((((HUG))))))) Feel better now? Things are moving in the right direction and will be ok!

  122. elle says:

    I wonder how many babies will be named Trayvon this year? I would love a child named Trayvon or Sybrina someday.

    To stay on topic: Go BDLR!

  123. Cynthia, TX says:

    Bernie didn’t need to prove GZ was a liar. GZ did that with his own words.

    As juror I would have rather he tell me with his mouth the lies. I just need Bernie to point them out, point to the evidence and weigh against the jury instructions.

    • willisnewton says:

      fair enough. But when a person tells a story two ways, and they can’t both be true, what about when NEITHER version is true? Berni could have hit a few of those nails on the head and got the jury started in the right direction, I feel.

      I do think that when the Jurors try to put it all together they will have little difficulty finding some big lies. I think that may be enough, but this defendant told THE BIG LIE and lots of it gets lost in the fog. It makes me sick to think that most people believe the guy ever, at all. Most all of it is a lie. And so he gets away with plenty. And it shouldn’t be since it can be proven to be lies.

    • newmediacounsel says:

      I think some of you have a TV version of what it is lawyers are supposed to do.

      I don’t practice in this area. He didn’t need to engage in the dramatics you wanted.

      • whonoze says:

        I don’t know who you’re speaking too nmc. I would have preferred less shouting and more facts to establish the lies. The concrete evidence is there, and BDLR didn’t use it.

        He didn’t even line up Z’s statements with the NEN call to show the discrepencies He should have done Unabogie’s stopwatch demo, and about three more watch, mapand NEN demos: TM supposedly getting to the CH by foot from Taaffe’s only seconds after GZ gets there by car; no time for GZ to get from parked by the CH to his final position on TTL; no time for TM to disappear down the dogwalk, return, circle GZ and go back down the dogwalk again…

        Not to mention the security videos, the bullet alignment, the first spot GZ marked on the map, and about a dozen other things I’m too exhausted to remember right now…

        • newmediacounsel says:

          I am not sure why you would think that I am talking to you since my comment isn’t addressed to you.

          If so many others found what he said compelling, but you didn’t, I am trusting the majority opinion.

          Many of the comments about why people didn’t like what he said are over style.

          Are you saying he didn’t cover many other lies at all?

        • newmediacounsel says:

          Let me put it to you another way:

          Do you think the state didn’t demonstrate that Zimmerman is a liar today?

          That was there goal. If you think they did that, regardless of what you think is missing, that would be effective to me.

          As for the telling of a story with all the evidence in place like you want, that can come tomorrow after the defense tries to weave a story with a flawed lead character.

        • vickie s. votaw says:

          That’s the jury’s job, to look at all the evidence, he gave them a clear way to get to the truth, he led them just far enough.

  124. KateW says:

    OMara said his client wanted to testify. I bet he is fuming right now he was not able to give his side of the story. But too late. Your words were used and they will seal your fate.

    • Woow! says:

      How many times did JN tell him he had the right to testify?

      MOM did not provide that me with adequate representation. He did not prepare a defense but played to the emotional disconnection of bigots and defame the character of a murdered child to illicit money for an entire year.

      The days are gone where a white man or any man can kill another and get off by playing up to a perception of privilege, “white privilege”. There are more sane caring people than there are bigots. If the racist can not see that they will be left behind. People of all nationalities came forward to demand justice for Trayvon Benjamin Martin. White, Black, Chinese, African-American, Mexican, Italian, our brothers and sisters in Europe. We stood together and fought hate.

      Bill Lee was on CNN last night subtly hinting that Boneparte allowed the Martin/Fulton’s listen to the tape due to political pressure and that he was not given an opportunity to complete his investigation. What he wanted to say was b/c they were black and he was black. What Lee did not say was Boneprte was my boss, he thought I f/up by letting that CAC off b/c I did, and I detest the fact that some N(*(a can tell me when and how to release a tape.

      Donald West doe not respect the court. Can we really expect him to respect JN and Fulton/Martin?

      MOM is an opportunistic a-hole that saw a change to make a lot of money and brought he best bud along for the ride. I wonder why that attorney commentator that referred CAC to MOM didn’t take the case. Hummm, oh I know b/c he knew that fool was guilty and he did not want the stank all over him for representing CAC.

      I could rant for days but I will stop here for now.

    • PYorck says:

      That doesn’t surprise me, but it does surprise me that O’Mara says this in public at this point.

    • cielo62 says:

      I wonder if that was what gz signed last night that had MOM and West laughing? His signature where he refused to testify on his own behalf. That would be rich.

      • Malisha says:

        Application to remain free on bail pending appeal, that’s my bet. His affidavit in support of their motion for bail pending appeal.

  125. willisnewton says:

    I feel Bernie did okay for a country lawyer. He managed to SAY that GZ was a liar plenty of times. I would have preferred however that he PROVED him a liar instead.

    And as far as an organizing principal, he could have gone in chronological order more.

    It’s important to know that GZ never parked at the clubhouse parking lot. It’s important to know that he found TM at the mail kiosk and trolled it, then doubled back to face the kiosk, where the teen walked past him – the only place possible to reconcile the timing of the NEN call is for him to have been exactly where he himself marked on a map, before crossing it out to tell the lie about circling the vehicle.

    Then it’s important to KNOW and PROVE that after TM passed the vehicle, GZ moved his car during the NEN call – as he admits – (just not where – he lies) causing the teen to run at just the time the call between he and Rachael Jentel is cut off. It’s important to know that the reason the teen ran was to get off the roadway as a MOVING CAR was following him.

    It’s also important to know that GZ NEVER told SPD that the teen ran. He ONLY told the NEN operator, and then tried to omit, obscure and obfuscate it later in his many inconsistent and contradictory statements regarding the matter.

    In fact if you see it in chronological order, many of the lies and inconsistencies start to make sense, including why he had to say he was INSTRUCTED to move TWICE. He was caught in a lie about being at the clubhouse parking lot and had to double down on his earlier lie. There is no instruction to move on the NEN call. So why say it happened twice? Because he was caught in his own tangles web of lies.

    And so on and so on.

    I;ve spent four minutes typing this. I wish Bernie had spent at least that time organizing his silly powerpoint presentation.

    • YQ says:

      I agree, but I think the whole point was to get those lies in there and hammer them in. It’s clever because they deliberately didn’t want to prove the lies in their case if chief. They waited until they absolutely had to-now the defense has little time to rebut and even if they do, the State still gets the last word. I also think Guy will put it together in the end and propose a theory, but I also think it that a theory matters not. For example: We don’t know precisely what happened when Jodi killed Travis, but no one is disputing the verdict and we can live with that. It would be nice to know what happened 2/26/12, but we might not ever know. What we do know is that Fogen lied and it couldn’t have happened how he said it did. If it happened any other way than that, would it still be self-defense?

    • tashatexas77048 says:



      • cielo62 says:

        looking in a mirror?

        • ic2fools says:


          • cielo62 says:

            ic2fools~ Good to see you! I almost stayed away today, I was so mega-steamed last night with the contents of the trolls on here. They did a fine job of demoralizing many who don’t know how the process works. I hope the prof wakes up and starts to ban some sewer-dwellers (who shall remain nameless, unless you want to know ;) )


          • Please email me with your concerns.

          • cielo62 says:

            masonblue~ certainly. I believe one was already warned, and she sent me 2 filth-filled diatribes. How do I reach you? Better yet, please use my email which you can access and I will respond. Thank you.


          • gbrbsbblogs says:

            Ceilo, I am so sorry to butt in here, but I reading the posts I saw the professor replied to you and as you know I am having a problem posting on the blog since Monday. If you email the professor please could you tell him my plight and on my behalf ask if he can have a look at what is happening and see if he can get me back to posting.

            WP appears to have flagged my IP, computer, or whatever as something my comments are not being published only erratically whether I use this new ID “gbrbsbblogs” or my old one “gbrbsb”. I had the same problem both on whonoze’s and Xena’s blogs and both fixed it so I can post with no problem. Xena had to fish me out of the spam and approve me, and I don’t know what whonoze did but he my posts were on his admin page but weren’t publishing on the page. If the professor doesn’t know how, maybe he can ask one of them.

            Please, please ask the professor for me because I have lost all these days and I miss my fellow bloggers terribly, and feel very lonely not being able to share with you all.

            If this posts please don’t think the problem is solved not even with this new ID. I just now tried to reply to your comment on the page and zilch. I am now trying to get in using email and around an hour ago one post worked but I also sent another after and it didn’t so it is erratic and it may be I just got one in by surprise but now the system has detected it I won’t any more.

            On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 2:25 AM, Frederick Leatherman Law Blog wrote:

            > ** > cielo62 commented: “masonblue~ certainly. I believe one was already > warned, and she sent me 2 filth-filled diatribes. How do I reach you? > Better yet, please use my email which you can access and I will respond. > Thank you. ________________________________” >

          • cielo62 says:

            gbrbsb~ I sent your message to the Professor to his personal email. Fingers crossed that you can get online!

            ________________________________ From: Frederick Leatherman Law Blog To: alphamonster@yahoo.com Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 10:34 PM Subject: [New comment] Discussion regarding Bernie de la Rionda’s closing argument

            WordPress.com gbrbsbblogs commented: “Ceilo, I am so sorry to butt in here, but I reading the posts I saw the professor replied to you and as you know I am having a problem posting on the blog since Monday. If you email the professor please could you tell him my plight and on my behalf ask if” Respond to this comment by replying above this line New comment on Frederick Leatherman Law Blog gbrbsbblogs commented on Discussion regarding Bernie de la Rionda’s closing argument. in response to cielo62: masonblue~ certainly. I believe one was already warned, and she sent me 2 filth-filled diatribes. How do I reach you? Better yet, please use my email which you can access and I will respond. Thank you. ________________________________ Ceilo, I am so sorry to butt in here, but I reading the posts I saw the professor replied to you and as you know I am having a problem posting on the blog since Monday. If you email the professor please could you tell him my plight and on my behalf ask if he can have a look at what is happening and see if he can get me back to posting. WP appears to have flagged my IP, computer, or whatever as something my comments are not being published only erratically whether I use this new ID “gbrbsbblogs” or my old one “gbrbsb”. I had the same problem both on whonoze’s and Xena’s blogs and both fixed it so I can post with no problem. Xena had to fish me out of the spam and approve me, and I don’t know what whonoze did but he my posts were on his admin page but weren’t publishing on the page. If the professor doesn’t know how, maybe he can ask one of them. Please, please ask the professor for me because I have lost all these days and I miss my fellow bloggers terribly, and feel very lonely not being able to share with you all. If this posts please don’t think the problem is solved not even with this new ID. I just now tried to reply to your comment on the page and zilch. I am now trying to get in using email and around an hour ago one post worked but I also sent another after and it didn’t so it is erratic and it may be I just got one in by surprise but now the system has detected it I won’t any more.

          • gbrbsbblogs says:

            Gracias mil, Cielo, for what you are doing for me.

            I’m trying reply button in notifications bar now, but don’t know if it will work… it sometimes does. I just posted you an apology via email which didn’t publish; this is more or less what I said:

            Eureka it posted! So, sorry for repeated comment but I had never posted from email until a few hours ago and I forget to remove that bumph!

          • J4TMinATL says:

            In the last thread during closing arguments, I pointed out at least 5. Fred hasn’t been reading our comments.

          • ic2fools says:

            Yes I saw that too, I collectively call all 5 Sybill. Hopefully the Professor will be able to catch those comments.

            I do believer that Professor and Crane do read our comments as many as they can possibly can. We have to remember Professor and Crane have literally thousands of comments to get through all day every day. That is a tedious job.

            I know my eyes and brain would be exhausted from the overload.

        • ic2fools says:

          hey cielo! same here i’ve been in and out watching and reading. its’ been a bit crazy here, collectively Sybill are on an all out bashing.

          its’ taken away from the intellectual conversations we have experienced here from months. its’ saddening, so sad some of it is too funny because of the immaturity and flipping like a fish outta of water.

          • cielo62 says:

            ic2fools~ I knew we’d get more folks once the trial started in earnest but I never dreamed our little haven of academic law blogging would be co-opted by ghouls and spectators. ‘sigh’


          • dianetrotter says:

            I think some of the new people are not use to the tone of this blog. I’ve never noticed arguing or insults in the past. It also loads the thread with too many comments when people go back and forth.

          • cielo62 says:

            diantrotter~ SORRY! I was just having a flame war with Dennis! I promise I’ll behave! 🙂


          • ic2fools says:

            Thanks you dianetrotter, for your opinion. I didn’t think of saying it this way. Your hit the nail on the head.

        • ic2fools says:


          i’m as shocked as you. i never dreamed it would get bad as it has been lately.

          i was so happy to see many from across the world posting here. and to have them visit only to see the horror of trolls is saddening.

          the only way to deal with trolls is to ignore them, don’t feed them. but there are just those times you have to interact to stop their maddness.

          • J4TMinATL says:

            Best way is banning them. Period.

          • ic2fools says:

            Whew ain’t that a good thought. Unfortunately that is not our choice. It would be nice if long time members could take a poll of about how to handle those distractors.

    • Beverly says:

      Your country lawyer insult is so unnecessary when a man has been working on something for months and poured his soul into
      something very important….Remember To Kill a Mockingbird…and talk about country.

      • willisnewton says:

        Atticus Finch was prepared. And he didn’t need a powerpoint and a clicker and a dummy, either.

        I _LIKE_ BDLR. He may have split the goalposts with this jury and won that case. Does that mean he couldn’t have done a lot better? NO.

        I’ve written extensively elsewhere that the jurors can choose between a dignified team like the state and TM’s family or a nightmare of self absorbed and biased, unruly clowns like MOM and DW and GZ and co. It’s one strategy and he stuck to it until today, when he seemed to have the right demeanor and such but rushed thru things haphazardly. He’s had months to practice this closing. Do YOU feel he came across as calm and organized?

        My basic point is that he DOESN’T understand the WAY GZ lies and WHY he lied the lies he did, and it means he MISSED a huge aspect of the crime itself – the chase down TTL in a moving car as the teen ran off the roadway to avoid the creepy stalker.

        • newmediacounsel says:

          1. They didn’t need to know what you are descriing. what you describe sounds like a tv show. not a trial.

          2. This is one of two closings. The first one could set up “he’s a liar” and the second one, after t hey hear the defense, can set up “how his lies matter in the context of this trial”

          If they had did what you said, what do you think would happen with the defense?

    • ks says:

      BDLR did prove GZ is a liar. Mostly using his own words. The “country lawyer” thing is silly. BDLR is a well regarded prosecutor.

    • cielo62 says:

      That was unnecessary. Are you going to Florida in a few weeks and tell them that Bernie does NOT deserve that Outstanding Prosecutor Award he’s being given? So you didn’t like the outline. So what. It will be efficient and will get a murderer off the streets.

      • willisnewton says:

        outline? what outline? But sure he’s getting an award and he’s a decent lawyer. This case is very complex and he could have and should have been better organized in his presentation and his investigators should have availed themselves of the crowd-sourced research that was easily available to them a few clicks away.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Good post. More organization would have been nice. A little more professional writerly polish on the visuals would have been nice.
      A little less rambling and some referral to notes and timeline could have nailed it better.

      I see the current Mercury retrograde at work in BDLR’s presentation. But it had good emotional impact and captured Fogen’s falsehoods, so can’t ask for much more than that.

  126. operacarla says:

    I have been mesmerized by this trial since it’s inception. I want to thank The dear Professor and Crane for all of the special knowledge and encouragement. I want to thank all of the posters for your very special comraderie. We have walked through something very transformative together. Trayvon will NEVER be forgotten. He DID cause change for good. He sleeps with God! I have sent in my monthly donation. I suggest a passing of the hat for Frederick who has offered us a welcoming gathering place. HOODIES UP!!!

  127. Unabogie says:

    Fauxmccoy made a good point in the last thread here which hadn’t considered.


    Tomorrow, O’Mara will start in on his “bashed his head, punched and attacked, jumped out of the bushes, ooga booga!”

    Had Bernie spent today layout out timelines and not clearly establishing Zimmerman as a liar, then those statements could carry some extra weight tomorrow. Now, when the jury hears O’Mara quoting Zimmerman, they’ll remember that Zimmerman is a liar and cannot be trusted. And if they do that, they’re left with scant physical evidence that clearly shows a minor scuffle. They’re left with no blood on Trayvon. They’re left with magic broken noses that heal themselves and get snapped back into place by fairies.

    In short, I think this was necessary today. Not perfect, and still could have been more organized, but necessary.

    The proof is that “pundits” are stepping back and reconsidering for the first time.

    • aussie says:

      The pundits are in it to get eyeballs on their advertising. They’ve consistently and pigheadedly refused to look at any real evidence, because making it up sells better.

      Quite obviously they would have to change sides as SHOCK DECISION GZ gets found guilty, then they have to backpedal to give the impression they said so all along.

      They’ll still get all the reasons wrong, because they didn’t even look at what evidence was presented in court (never mind all that got left out, that we here have been party to).

      • fauxmccoy says:

        has CNN picked out their ‘george zimmerman: jury deliberates’ theme music yet? how about the follow up “georgie to the slammer!” or “zimmerman prevails!” wrap up themes?

        we will know soon. my guess is ‘yes’ already in the bag.

        • Cercando Luce says:

          How about Louis Jordan’s “Run Joe”?

          • fauxmccoy says:

            i toured their studio once and actually asked them how they get their major disaster themes up and on the air so fast.

            the response was kind of disgusting to me and contributed to the media cynic i am today. they have pre made graphic backgrounds chosen, add a few situation appropriate graphics then go to their library of generic music files they have purchased. god only knows what disaster of a failed musician writes them. as a process, i think it’s sickening.

            your musical suggestion works fine with me, but it’s too upscale when they already have the crap they’ve pre-purchased.

    • ks says:

      Indeed and that’s why demolishing his credibility was so important for BDLR to do today. The whole “GZ says…” angle is gone for the defense though they will try and use it along with some conspiracy stuff.

      As I was saying on the previous thread, this is not a whodunit. We know who did it and he’s asking that we believe his story so showing that he’s not credible, based on his own words and forensics, is a very key thing to do.

      • Malisha says:

        Right. It’s amazing how people who seem perfectly normal start out their description of the case with:

        “A Black kid who got kicked out of high school attacked a neighborhood watch guy and was smashing his head on the sidewalk when …”

        Although liar John Good started out confirming that version (without trying to lie about seeing the first punch thrown), once he recanted and tucked tail between his legs and ran squealing away, there was one lone voice saying it: Fogen’s voice. He chose not to testify. Whose testimony now enters “Zimmerman was punched…” onto the record?

        The nose fairy. The tooth fairy wouldn’t touch it with a ten foot pole.

        • cielo62 says:

          Malisha~ YOU WERE RIGHT!! I owe you a $16 hoodie…


        • fauxmccoy says:

          🙂 ewwww … what do you have to put under your pillow for the nose fairy to visit? and is that the stuff the defendant has been wiping from his sleeve the past couple of weeks?

    • fauxmccoy says:

      thanks unaboogie.

  128. Sophia33 says:

    Is this what those crazies at the Treehouse were talking about? When I was over there, realizing that they blame everything on Obama or Holder, I couldn’t figure out WHY they kept referring to the DOJ and rallies. Now I get it! At least I think I get it.

    Another conservative lie going around.


    • Woow! says:

      Yes, that is the explosive information Sundance Craker was feeding his flock of bigots. Last week was also the Judicial impeachment of JN.

      • Thrace says:

        He has real head issues. I read this morning that he has the inside scoop even down to the fact at Judge Nelson rec’d a phone call at 12:51 yesterday, informing her to stick to the script. His inside info is a NG is coming down. So I guess the jury fixed, lol.

    • cielo62 says:

      LOL! I guess every act can have a “dark side of evil” if you just LOOK hard enough…

    • aussie says:

      Don’t forget these guys go to Area 51 for their vacations and picnic on the Grassy Knoll. I mean, they’re not strangers to conspiracy theories.

      They MUST keep inventing new ones, because they have to find some way to cling to the idea that they ARE right and WERE right all along. So everything has to be twisted to justify why it doesn’t SEEM to be so. What better than secret (ideally government) plots to cause all these “lies”.

      As if people like them would be in the know about secret government stuff. OR as if anyone who DID know about secret government stuff would survive more than a week blogging about it.

      Hey CTH guys, ever hear the “if I tell you I’d have to kill you” line? eh? in really really secret circles that is not a joke. So any supposed top secrets you think you know about are not all that top or secret or known about.

      • Thrace says:

        One of them that cracked me up is that this case is going to lead to another financial collapse. No kidding one of them actually believes it. Something about riots, the media and the stock exchange. It must wear on one to be so hypervilligant over imaginary world ending conspiracy theories. I’d never sleep if I bought into half the nonsense I read on some of those type of sites.

    • EdgySF says:

      A coworker shared this fairy tale with me this morning. He got very worked up about it m

      Folks…if Fogen get M2, white folks may riot!

    • kllypyn says:

      these are the same who claim trayvon had a suppressed criminal record which is sorry Mr Leatherman bullshit.

  129. Woow! says:

    I don’t know why but scan known bigoted blogs to get their take on what transpired for the day. I do so because it baffles the heck out of me that those people can view something and come up with asinine theories/logic what ever you want to call it.

    Is there no critical thinking in schools anymore…..gee Louise.

    Well today in my scan the crazies think BDLR lied in his closing, the prosecution put forth no evidence CAC had ill will, Sybrina shouldn’t have put her kid out of the house, MOM is going to wipe the floor with BDLR and expose all the lies he told to the jury. According to our favorite crazy who can’t expose too much or the left will know what they are up to but the defense is gearing up for a big appeal and sanctions againt AC, BDLR, and JN (wtf), CAC had a right to follow TM because the dispatcher asked where he was therefore he had to follow in order to tell him his location.

    Wheew, all the talk about black rioting local police should be worried about all the KKK that will commit suicide if their poster boy for killing blacks is found guilty.