Closing arguments start tomorrow in Zimmerman case

Wednesday, July 10, 2013

Good evening:

Judge Nelson announced his afternoon that closing arguments of counsel in the Zimmerman case will begin at 1 pm EDT tomorrow and wrap up on Friday.

Richard Mantei will give the State’s first closing argument.

The defendant apparently has decided not to testify.

Judge Nelson also said that she has been conducting an independent investigation of apparent violations of the sequestration rule by several individuals listed as possible witnesses by the prosecution and the defense. These people were excluded from the courtroom and prohibited from discussing the case, until they completed their testimony and were excused by counsel and the Court.

John Goode and a Mr. Donnelly were identified as two of the offenders. Both were seen in court discussing the case and Donnelly has admitted discussing the case with the defense expert who produced the computer animation.

The purpose of the sequestration rule is to prevent witnesses as well as jurors from contaminating their memories of events relevant and material to the case.

The State has filed a motion to strike the testimony of the witnesses who violated the rule. They are defense witnesses who identified the defendant as the person who uttered the terrified death shriek.

Court resumea tomorrow at 9 am EDT.

557 Responses to Closing arguments start tomorrow in Zimmerman case

  1. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    I change my mind…BDLR is doing really good now.

  2. degraveegmailcom says:

    Goddamit crying.

  3. degraveegmailcom says:

    Shut up West!
    Stay strong Mantei!

  4. Tzar says:

    Shut up West!

  5. anita says:

    Morning to all! Last eve. when I was watching the commentators almost all of them, except Sunny H. & that new really cute, young, black girl on msnbc, tho’t the dummy demo. with Guy was conceding that Trayvon was on top. I knew he was showing that fogen couldn’t have drawn his gun while lying on his back. I just hope the jury gets it. The state thinks fogen had the gun out way sooner, so do I.

    • mrsdoubtfire says:

      The gun was out before these two men made it to the ground. That’s the scenario that best fits with how this tragic event unfolded so quickly and those pitiful screams for help.

      I have always been very suspicious of Z’s unprompted story about reaching in his right pocket for his cell phone. Would you put your cell phone away in a pocket if you didnt know “where this kid is at” and you were expecting a call from responding police officers. Could Z have been thinking about what possible witnesses saw him do that dark rainy night? Absolutely. Just as he knew Selma Mora had called out to him three times “What’s going on”.when she saw him on TM’s back.

  6. degraveegmailcom says:

    I am Elizabeth but I have to logout login to get that above my comments.degraveegmailcom is what is automaticly shown if I stay
    logged in so…..

    Hello, good morning all,Hoodies Up!

    Mom is late,good show. 30 minute recess.

  7. MDH says:

    IF I was a juror, then there are many ways to argue that GZ is guilty of M2:

    1) The evidence proves way beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ is a liar.

    2) I would disregard any testimony of a proven liar and any by witnesses with a proven interest in either self promotion or in GZ

    3) The evidence not tainted proves beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ caused the struggle and, as such, T had a right to defend himself with reasonable force.

    4) Because T had a right to defend himself, GZ forfeits his right to self-defense in that he was the aggressor (the damn fool brought the mess on himself).

    5) Because GZ can not claim self-defense, he is guilty of M2

    M2 is proved by:

    The fact the GZ killed T, thus establishing elements 1 and 2.

    The use of a gun with hollow points. Note that the act of using a gun to kill is, in and of itself evidence of a deprave mind, thus establishing element 3.

    • Malisha says:

      If there is one sentence said by one witness that will win this case for the prosecution, this is it:

      Why did he get out of his car to follow my son?

      Tracy Martin.

  8. ay2z says:

    Yesterday’s problems. Caught this on wftv’s part 14 end of the video clip and 15 biginning of the clip.

    Have to wonder about Shellie Z with her known ability to lie to the court, and two others. Whatever role she may have had if any.

    “The court is very concerned over the fact that there are three alleged instances of the rule [of sequestration] of defense witnesses and that’s something that should have been known by counsel to not have occurred.

    [ pt 14 wftv to part 15– words may be missing]

    “… of sequestration , although they have not been called as a witness, but I am investigating that also, but I wanted to inform both sides….”

    • aussie says:

      The guy Shumacher (sp) who made the cartoon video that has not been allowed in as evidence… he stated he made the video in consultation with the attorneys and witnesses John Good, one of the HOA women I forget which, and Dr Mi Maio, so that makes 3 who gave evidence and himself the 4th who didn’t give evidence. Someone here said he was in court a few days, too.

      Then on top of that is Donnelly who sat in court for days then gave evidence, claiming he’d not heard the scream tape until Saturday (after it was played heaps of times when he was in court). So he’s a perjury case as well as a sequestration issue.

      Plus some other witness that wasn’t called may have been in court, or listening, or tweeting etc etc They are dirty, the lot of them.

      • ay2z says:

        But this is aside (apparently) from those issues, JN was speaking after she discussed the witnesses who testified, John, the woman neighbour with the child, and Donnolly.

        This part was completely separate from witnesses who had testified, Judge nelson explained. And she said she would be investigating and would let the lawyers know at the bench, the names of the perople involved, but not publicly as she was having this investigated.

        It’s a separate issue.

        (source is wftv’s part 14 (very end, and part 15, very beginning)

  9. diary73 says:

    Does anyone have a link that works on iPad?

    Good morning to all.

  10. type1juve says:

    Good morning everyone!

    Well the killer is sweating bullets again this morning. It must be really hot in Florida.

    • MedicineBear says:

      He’s feeling the heat of the flames of hell licking his child-murdering azz!

      Toasted marshmallow man (that smells like toasted Michelin man).

  11. FactsFirst says:

    If GZ gets off then they need to let this woman go!

    Where’s her petition? This is a travesty of JUSTICE!

  12. Donna says:

    I am thinking the Judge did not go after Donnelly because she has a bigger fish to fry. She is investigating someone else and she seemed very concerned about it.

    She said it was brought up during the testimony of the guy who built the animation. Who did he say he spoke with? I think he said John Good and Di Maio.

    That is speaking to other witnesses.

    I think something big is coming down that pike.

  13. Boyd says:

    You have to have special skills to be a high profile trial lawyer. One mistake, one overlooked item, one poorly expressed thought , result you lost and people suffer not getting justice.

    Plenty of people including my wife have said “you should have been a lawyer” well I don’t think I could handle this, I can handle lower income on the books because of a poor product that I can handle.

    looking for a rebound from the prosecution, time to get personal, picture your kid, if MOM allows it

  14. Tony Pipitone ‏@TonyPipitone

    State will NOT seek testimony from state alcohol agent who arrested #Zimmerman. He is “not available,” prosecutor just told me.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      What a pity.

      On a personal cheerful note:

      I just came inside the house after feeding shelled almonds to my two chipmunk friends.

      One comes within four inches of my feet, and the other comes right next to me and lets me pet her while she gathers the almonds in her cheeks.

    • HeresLookingatYOU says:

      they didn’t want to use him after the defense shot back with good character blah blah witnesses… so I’m not surprised

  15. pork que says:

    The Killer’s lawyer, West, told the Court that Shellie asked Donnelly to attend Court even though Shellie knew Donnelly was a witness subject to sequestration.

    Thus, it is very clear, the Defendant (the Killer) knew his own witness was going to violate the Court’s order — which is grounds for striking his entire testimony.

  16. ay2z says:

    Good morning.

  17. You all have thoughtful comments says:

  18. J4TMinATL says:

    Morning all!

  19. willisnewton says:

    Morning all. It’s a good day for justice. Let’s hope the state is up to the job at hand. The certainly have the evidence to present a great argument for M2 I feel.

    To me this case needs to be about who LIED and not who may have cried help. It needs to be about who DIED from a gunshot to the heart and not who got minor injuries. Who closed the gap, vs who was talking on the phone to a friend about a creepy guy who was pursuing him and kept getting closer with his car and on foot in the proverbial dark alley where he had zero business being. If the state can go there instead of fiddling around with witnesses for the defense who offered little facts and only biased and paid for opinion, then we might have a jury who will deliberate quickly and bring in a guilty verdict.

    • MedicineBear says:


      One who unnecessarily LIED, and one who unnecessarily DIED.

      (I submit above to public domain usage — MedicineBear)

  20. chi1224 says:

    Good morning everyone. I’m still so disappointed that the judge did not give sanctions on that liar Donnelly, but I guess what is done is done and it’s over with now. Now I am just praying for sanity on that jury. Sigh. I wish we knew what they were thinking. I so badly want, even NEED justice in this case.
    I’ve already decided that I will NOT be watching the defense closing. I just can’t stomach any more of them. I just can’t. I wish bad things for them. It’s not good.
    Anyway I will be here until the end. I will be praying for Sabrina, Tracey and the rest of Trayvon’s family and friends every second of the day. Hoodies up, and dear God please let there be justice in this case.

  21. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    I submit that the defense is SWEATING the evidence including statements + technical verifications of technology evidence that the prosecution has not tied together yet.

    The defense IS fretting as it is being kept in the dark as to the prosecution’s game plan today.

  22. HeresLookingatYOU says:

    The state needs to put ALL the different statements IN THE FACE of the jurors… they’ve got to bring it home.

  23. HeresLookingatYOU says:

    I forgot to add the jurors have heard the scream… they know that is a kid screaming that is silenced by a bullet..

    • HappyinNM says:

      Craig Melvin, MSNBC, been in the courtroom, said every time juror E-40 hears the scream, she puts her head down. Is that a sign? What do you know about E-40?

  24. mrsdoubtfire says:

    I imagined before this went to the Jury we would have seen the State play Z’s re-enactment and pause it at every demonstrable lie using the real time NEN call.and Z’s statements. Will or can they do that in closing or am I setting myself up for more disappointment?

    • HeresLookingatYOU says:

      I would think they can still can if they choose , I’m hoping they play that voice exemplar the killer made to represent his scream that night. No way that sounds like Trayvons horrific death wail.

  25. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    There’s a man by my side walking
    There’s a voice within me talking,
    There’s a voice, within me saying,
    Carry on, carry it on.

    When you can’t go on any longer,
    Take the hand, hand of your brother,
    Every victory brings another,
    Carry it on, carry it on.

  26. HeresLookingatYOU says:


  27. HeresLookingatYOU says:

    Manslaughter Must be on the table .. I do not see anyway this jury is letting this asshole get away… they see the killer had two tiny scrapes…no dna blood on Trayvons hands…Trayvon was not found at the T… the killer has many versions….free him and the story will be clear… it’s ok to kill a black kid perios

  28. crazy1946 says:

    Now for my prediction for the morning, the jury will reach a decision to convict the Fogdoit by no later than 12:00 noon on Sat.l The defense will make and emergency appeal to the the appellate court shortly there after, The defense will request that bond be continued, the appeals court will find that he is not a flight risk (I disagree with that part, because in my opinion he is) and set a hearing date for approx. Jan 2014! Let’s see how far off I am…. I’m going back to the Dr. again today, so y’all try to post what is going on so I can get some sort of feel for how it went today. Thanks in advance…..

    • Sophia33 says:

      Take care of yourself.

    • aussie says:

      I don’t see them letting a convicted Murder 2 person sit around on bail pending an appeal. They might let him do his time in jail, rather than the big prison, like everyone else being held without bail.

      There may yet be an outburst from him, eg wanting to give evidence. He wanted to badly. His lawyers had a hard time talking him out of it.

      I don’t know the law on this and I don’t know of any precedents. But…. if the case is not yet over, if they’re just doing closing arguments, and the defendants declares he wants to give evidence, and he is refused, that might be usable for an appeal.

      I don’t think it’s going to go smoothly.

      And if closing arguments don’t start until 1 pm, I can see them going on way past 5, even to 7. State might take only 2 hours on theirs (the main one with the timelines explained) but MOM and West can’t say hello under 20 sentences, so might take ages, especially if they have to explain their little comic strip video.,

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Well, you have got me thinking aussie.

      • boyd says:

        Okay I’ll try to be positive.

        did not like the sequestration not even a slap on the wrist and no rebuttal on Fogens bogus witnesses. JN allowed West/MOM to walk all over her.

        • aussie says:

          The State can demolish that guy’s evidence anyway, it was way over the top. “Who gave evidence for GZ??? people who want him to get off so bad, they’ve contributed $thousands to his defence fund”.

          IF Judge Nelson were to wipe out the (at least) 4 witnesses who broke sequestration, it would open the door for an appeal, while not helping the jury to forget, as they’d have to replay those witnesses to be able to tell them what to forget.

          The closed morning session may, however, contain some wrist-slapping for the defence lawyers, who should have been more careful. It’s really their fault not warning their witnesses and calling ones who were obviously openly sitting in court for days.

          But the drama is not over. Or melodrama, more accurately.

      • jodiwankanobi says:

        i was thinking that myself, i wouldn’t be surprised if today before closing arguments start he decides to testify. We all know he wants to, that’s why he couldn’t keep his mouth shut in the beginning, he thinks he can smooth things over and charm the ladies.

        On another note, even if Donnelly didn’t know about the rules, fact is he lied his ass off when he said he had not heard the calls….he heard them over and over and over.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Thinking of you, crazy….may all be well with you!

  29. TheUsualSuspects says:


    Why all the long faces? Prosecution kept it simple.

    Under Fla. Stat. 782.04(2), all the prosecution had to prove was:

    1. TM died (see photos in evidence and ME testimony in evidence);

    2. GZ killed TM (see all of GZ’s statements in evidence where he says he shot TM); and

    3. GZ committed an act imminently dangerous to another and demonstrated a depraved mind without regard to human life.

    The third element is proven by GZ’s various statements in evidence wherein GZ himself says he:

    – made several calls about suspicious black males (depraved mind)
    – followed TM in his car (imminently dangerous),
    – called a NON-EMERGENCY number to express his feelings about punks and assholes (depraved mind),
    – exited his vehicle with a flashlight and 9mm with hollow points to chase someone he described as a teenaged punk/asshole wearing a photo button running AWAY from him (imminently danger, depraved mind, no regard to human life),
    – fired off a shot in the middle of a dark courtyard where a child was walking a dog and residents had open patio doors and windows (no regard to human life),
    – then told someone to call his wife instead of 911 (no regard to human life).

    ^^See, you can accept everything GZ said as fact and still find him guilty of M2 beyond a reasonable doubt.

    For self-defense under Fla. Stat. 776.012, the defense had to show GZ used deadly force because GZ REASONABLY believed shooting TM through the heart with a hollow point was necessary to prevent dying from blunt force head trauma or being in diapers for the rest of his life. (I think the defense will get the self-defense instruction because GZ “testified” through his various statements that TM pounded his head into the con-CRETE, the new weapon of choice in Florida, I guess. In addition, reasonableness is a fact question for the jury.)

    Finally, the prosecution had to disprove GZ’s self-defense claim by showing the jury that (a) GZ was the AGGRESSOR and (b) shooting a photo button-wearing teenager carrying Skittles was UNREASONABLE.

    I think the prosecution accomplished this through the following evidence:

    1. Aggressor – GZ “kept an eye” on TM (a minor) by following TM in his car (a menacing maneuver considered the crime of assault in most jurisdictions);

    2. Aggressor – GZ went “in the same direction” as TM with a 9mm and hollow points when TM ran from him (i.e., chased his victim);

    3. Aggressor – RJ says she heard someone bump TM and TM say “get off, get off”;

    4. Unreasonable – A photo button-wearing teenager who walked to the store for Skittles and was talking on a telephone headset while running from a creepy stranger is likely NOT the aggressor;

    5. Unreasonable – GZ was not in fear of imminent death because although GZ says his head was slammed into the con-CRETE 25 to 30 times, he only had two lacerations .5 cm and 2 cm in length that were referred to as “not significant”;

    6. Unreasonable – No fear of imminent death because although GZ says his bloody nose and mouth were being smothered, none of GZ’s blood or DNA was on TM’s hands;

    7. Unreasonable – No fear of serious bodily injury because despite the police car photo showing a possible broken nose, the police station video and police station photos show no broken nose or signs of life-threatening trauma;

    8. Unreasonable – No fear of serious bodily injury or imminent death because GZ’s wounds did not require stitches, he did not seek further treatment from an ENT specialist, and he was looking to return to work;

    9. Unreasonable – The “confrontation” happened between the time the RJ/TM call was disconnected and the first 911 call — 2 minutes, which was only enough time for neighbors to hear a moving scuffle, see arms flailing, hear TM begging for his life and hear a gun shot; and

    10. Unreasonable – Within that crucial 2-minute period, in addition to the moving scuffle and flailing, there was also the “homie” conversation AND the punch in the nose AND the MMA-style ground and pound AND the slamming of the head 25 to 30 times into the concrete AND the shimmy AND the struggle for the gun “concealed” in a holster behind the back hip that was not visible in the dark.

    Sure, we wanted the jurors to see the clubhouse videos and the GPS records, and hear about GZ’s violent past. Plus, we wanted an FDLE rep to wrap it all up. But you know what? None of that goes to the elements of the crime needed to prove guilt.

    All the juicy stuff we know is too difficult to explain to six people who don’t have the benefit of consulting the great minds on this blog. That’s why there was no need for a rebuttal.

    Everything the prosecution needs the jurors to focus on for the 2-minute timeline is all in evidence. The 2-minute timeline effectively makes the defense’s closing argument dead on arrival. Way too many variables for a such a short time frame.

    Think about it. A teenager’s life was taken in 120 seconds. The jurors can figure out for themselves to whom those death cries belong.


    Keep your heads and your hoodies up, soldiers. Looking forward to reading your comments during closing arguments.

    • PiranhaMom says:

      Now 26,955 signatures on the petition supporting Rachel Jeantel

    • crazy1946 says:

      TheUsualSuspects, How dare you come on here and post something that makes sense! Do you not understand what you have done? You have upset the balance of those people who live and breath negative thoughts, they will probably have a stroke if somehow they can not release those into the atmosphere to pollute the entire population with negative vibes! Ok, enough of my sarcasm for the morning, Good Post and I am glad someone else is bringing out that all is not lost, I’ve grown tired of trying to point that out to those who only see doom and gloom in all things.. Have a great day, stay calm and all will work out as it is truly supposed to…..

    • aussie says:

      Adding to TheUsualSuspect’s list

      there was a considerable size and weight difference between them, and GZ was a trained fighter including grappling techniques, Yet claimed no other defensive moves and neither he nor Trayvon showed physical evidence of his having tried any.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I think the fact that Trayvon had no other injuries, could be used against GZ. Guy got Root to say, that GZ’s tactical flashlight could’ve been used as a weapon.

    • MDH says:

      One more point.

      If the evidence reasonably shows that a person in T’s situation would deem GZ an aggressor, then T had the right to defend himself.

      IOW, there is a strong case that GZ forfeits his right to self-defense.

    • FactsFirst says:

      Thank you sooooo much! I needed that!


    • Elizabeth says:

      Thank you TheUsualSuspects!!!

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      Bravo. Excellent summary.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      @the usual suspects

      good post!

  30. i really felt the prosecution was going well apart from a few weird decisions made towards the end by the judge. They didn’t cover everything that we thought they would but i guess they know the evidence better than we do, what is admissible and what can be proven etc. but today i’m feeling really flat. I don’t know if it is that the media have only picked up things that help the defense or if the feeling on the internet/media and here is that he is going to walk. There has been so many positive things from the prosecution, so many touch down moments imo so i’m a bit concerned about why the mood, including my own, is so low.

    On another note, the nuthouse is saying that because the texts were inadmissible because of authentication issues then that hands the defense the win because they allowed dee dee’s testimony….but she authenticated that the call came from Trayvon so that is why her testimony could be used. So i think they are barking up the wrong tree there.

  31. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
    For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.

  32. Woow! says:

    Does the media (liberal and conservative) know something that we do not know?

    There are too many headlines about Florida and the DOJ gearing up for riots in case of a not guilty verdict. Why are the predicting not guilty for CAC? I guess either the media was no confidence in the all white female jury or they are using the assumption that white men always get off for killing a black man/child, or they know of a fix that we do not have knowledge about.

    If CAC get off shame on those women. How in the same hell did
    no blacks get on that jury?

    But I don’t see him walking away.

    • I strongly suspect not guilty. The defense has given an excuse for every bit of evidence that was brought to them. I don’t expect a guilty verdict at all despite his obvious guilt. We wouldn’t even make it this far if races were reversed.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      What about the lady who’s said to be mixed black / hispanic?

      I’m ignoring the media at this point. Too sensationalistic.

  33. abbyj says:

    Good night, all. Everyone has a heavy heart, but let’s see it through. We’ve come this far, and we need to keep the faith.

  34. My Forehead Tho says:

    The probability of a teenager coming back and attempting to murder the creepy guy he avoided and ultimately ran from is zero to none. I doubt the jurors, especially the mothers, will believe that and as a result will give Rachel’s testimony a huge amount of weight.

    Once the jurors conclude that Fogen most likely confronted and grabbed Trayvon, he won’t be leaving that courtroom with anything less than manslaughter.

    • MrSykes says:

      You know, I’ve been having my doubts especially since the media seems to be rooting for the Defense. But this brings it into perspective. Hope remains in me.

  35. Jun says:

    I am curious

    Why is Fogen’s background not brought up?

    He opened the door by claiming to be a wuss and not a hot head

    They should bring up all his attacks on others

  36. fauxmccoy says:

    closing argument example
    florida, murder 1 case — although not a direct comparison, gives some hints as to what to expect. prosecution intends for 3 hours, that is significant.

    • MrSykes says:

      Yep. Even longer than Don West’s opener. This should be good.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        in reading this example, it answers many of the questions that have been asked around here or complaints made.

        but — they never asked an expert about the defendant’s bloody head picture and what gravity would do.

        look, you do not need to ask an expert. as my husband’s T-shirt says ‘Obey Gravity … It’s the Law’.

        but beyond that, every medical expert testified that blood flow was affected by gravity. all the state needs to do is say that, hold up o’mara’s favorite bloody head picture and rotate it before the jury until blood is flowing down. the jury can draw it’s own conclusions.

        obey gravity, it’s the law! we don’t need an expert to establish the law of gravity.

        as i read through this and know that the BDLR and johnn guy have done this over 600 times between them, i expect that they know what they are doing. they did not blow opening arguments, i doubt they will blow this.

        there may have been mistakes throughout trial, o’mara made some too. there are problems with the case they have no control over — such as evidence storage, peculiar MEs, etc., but the prosecution did not create that nonsense, it was the hand they were dealt. they decided to charge M2 anyway and have spent i hear over $300k preparing this case.

        i will wait until they have finished closing before i judge them.

        • MrSykes says:

          This is reassuring, faux. Thank you.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            all i can do at this point. it is out of hands and has been since charges were filed. i am glad if that you found reassurance there, i think it does resolve some, if not many questions that have been raised.

  37. diary73 says:

    Good night all! Having a difficult time sleeping this evening. Closing my eyes now. Thank you all for your kindred hearts!

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Goodnight, diary. I, too, am saying goodnight to all.

      Kindred spirits….yes that is what we all are!

      Let us all believe that our light has power……our light will disperse the darkness…….our light will warm the world and melt away the cold.

  38. Kandigurly says:

    Just to be clear, did singleton lie under oath? She said she felt so bad for Tracy martin and saw him visibly upset when he listened to the 911 call but she was not there when mr. Martin heard the 911 call?

  39. boyd says:

    using Doris Singleton’s map. I hope BDLR shows the long distance the kid was followed. 1/4 – 1/2 mile by a 4,000 pound vehicle.

    getting out of the car with loaded weapon at night..

    This was Freddy Kruger stuff. Friday the 13th. Late Night Horror movie. They need to put that visual in those Jurors mind.

  40. J4TMinATL says:

    Good night all. I’m headed to bed with a heavy heart. I will see y’all in the morning as we unite as one for J4TM.

    I’m listening to one last song before bed: Lean On Me by Al Green. I hope you do too.

    Kisses to Trayvon who is in heaven.

  41. Cercando Luce says:

    Oh for crying out loud, Zimmerman killed his neighbor’s guest. A guest who had been admonished by his father to show his best behavior at all times (a text message released by the defense to the public). A guest who was audibly begging for his life.

    He KILLED HIS NEIGHBOR’S GUEST. Some hospitality state is Florida, when law enforcement and the local public twist themselves to justify it, right along with the shape-shifting defendant.

    • breelee says:

      Wow, your post made me feel like I was kicked in the gut, it was so true and raw. In all this time, I’ve never heard this horrid murder worded this way. I wish there was a way to get this sent to the state to use in the closing.

      “He killed his neighbors guest!” That’s what they should yell just like Guy yelled funkin punks. Thanks for posting this Cercando. The kicker is he killed his neighbors guest, so he could look like a hero too all his other neighbors. smdh

    • “He KILLED HIS NEIGHBOR’S GUEST.” <— Yes, Cercando. This is the bottom line. With the last few days defense fog of "critical stress amnesia" and "force continuum" among other thing, it all boils down to an unlawful killing. Period.

  42. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Sorry about lack of question marks at the end of questions, but I just don’t feel like being grammatically correct. Besides I’m lazy. Does that make me subhuman or inferior?

    It’s not about skin color, it’s not about whose wrong or right. It’s about when the dispatcher told GZ that he did not need him to follow Trayvon and he said okay, but then turned around and followed him anyway. When he followed him anyway, he became the one that executed everything that happened from that moment on and that’s makes GZ the one who is the cause of everything that happened. He is responsible for that child’s death no matter how MOM and West try to whitewash it,

    A suspect is a person that is one they suspect after a crime is committed or a person connected to someone who committed the crime. No crime was committed, but GZ called Trayvon a suspect. For him to follow him, what crime was committed? The whole case has been centered on GZ and his wounds, but what about the person who is dead.

    Suckered punch? That’s bogus. You got GZ’s statement, but the other person is dead. Abnormal is how people want to take the murderer’s word as the gospels truth. Smh!

  43. DruDo says:

    This is an excerpt from a review of a first film by a young man named Ryan Coogler, called Fruitvale Station which won the Audience Award and the Grand Jury Prize at the Sundance Film Festival:

    “Asked to elaborate on the phrase “how we die,” Coogler looks up. “Young black males, in cities all across the country. People who know us cry, but no one else does.” ”

    The complete review is at:

    I want to see this movie.

    • Dee says:

      Yes because this friend of Zimmerman named Frank Taafee said that he was going to celebrate, and buy pizza for everybody on the Jane show. How could someone say that they are going to celebrate. And they still let him go on the other shows, making this man a house hold name who people will hate and remember for a long time to come. All of this when Trayvon’s parents are grieving for their son whom they lost but still love very much. And their absence of their son was for no
      reason. I don’t understand why they are continuing to put him on their show, but if it was my show, I would never have condoned what this man has been saying in nothing but racial over tones. He is a horrible man I think he is the demon who mentored Zimmerman to watch for black kids; I really do.

    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      One of my nephews was on his way home and on the BART that night and witnessed Oscar Grant’s murder, He was video taping it with his cell phone and sending the pictures to my granddaughter as the whole ordeal was taking place. He said that people had to hide their cell phones because the police were taking people’s cell phones and cussing at bystanders and making them leave.

      • DruDo says:

        Oh, Granny, how traumatizing it must have been for your nephew to have seen that happen! I’m sure he and your granddaughter will certainly never forget it. It’s the stuff of nightmares. I’m not surprised at the behavior of the police and it’s easy to figure out why they acted that way. What a sad, unnecessary death, just as Trayvon’s was.

      • abbyj says:

        Granny, at moments like that, the Thin Blue Line becomes a circling of wagons to protect their own. Documentation of what really happened is taken, suppressed, or vanishes, as best they can make it happen. Thank goodness for the availability of camera phones now. Still, it did poor Oscar Grant no good. His killer went free. IMO, BART police officer Mehserle should be in prison.

    • I lived by the Fruitvale station for 7 years. I used to get off it from work everyday. I don’t think that I have the stomach to see this movie.

  44. smokeegyrl says:

    Six women on the juror panel doesn’t and will not negate how I feel if they come back with a not guilty verdict.

    Since March of 2012 when I first heard of the murder from the mother of Trayvon Martin on Twitter. Everything that I have researched on this case, read, viewed, and come to my own conclusions. Those 6 women will not change my mind. I believe that Fogen killed Trayvon Martin intentionally because he couldn’t let another a$$hole get away because he looked at this young teenager as a fuggin punk who was like the black man who broke into that young girls house. For me all this timeline BS is irrelevant… what is relevant is before he got out of his car… he knew exactly what he was going to do… he loaded his keltec 9mm with magazine… and was so damn dark outside… he had that damn gun in his hand… that’s why no prints were found on that gun… not paying attention to the NEN dispatcher… caught up with Trayvon Martin he became angered when Trayvon questioned him asking him why you following me for… not identifying himself to him… instead he asks… what are you doing here… grabs him and shoots him dead in his heart… end of story… Fogen knows this…

    There is a lot of things that the Prosecution missed and at first, okay I said… maybe they will bring it up… like why didn’t they bring up the clicking sound of the gun being loaded? Why wasn’t the fingerprint inside Trayvon’s jacket brought up? Why didn’t they explain the lingo dee dee spoke for her neighborhood? Why didn’t the state make Dee Dee more believable? There was a couple of times Bernie did Good… so did Guy… so did Mantei… but it wasn’t 100%… I understand they didn’t want to open up the doors… but damn it…

    I am in shock as to what has inspired so far. I don’t know the laws as most of y’all do even though I have worked in a court setting typing court reports for judges. I know some of the terminologies but not all of them. But I do know what “Blind Justice” is and this fits it so far. The Greek statue for justice is wearing a blindfold so she cannot see the bribes being offered to her, hence blind justice. I’m not just meaning bribes of money. I am meaning bribes of manipulation by the Defense Team or even maybe guided by a higher judge like the Chief Judge who’s name is Carmine Bravo. Since this is a high profile case you know he is keeping tabs on this case. Probably has been listening in on this case since day one of the Jury selection. I know in some court room they have a special way of communicating with the court rooms. I wouldn’t put it pass any of it.

    I wished it could’ve been more in the court room… but it’s not… it is what it is… and well have to live with it… like it or not… If he found guilty I will be happy… if he is not then what can I do, I will be very disappointed… *sigh* I don’t want any more harm to come to those who live in Florida… If harm is going to come to Fogen it will be by God’s hand not by man’s hand. I will pray on this. Avenge is my mine saith the Lord.


  45. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Okay, why are people so worried about a riot. Do they know something we don’t know. Do they already know what the juries’s verdict is gonna be because if that is so, then my question is was this jury handpicked before they were picked?

    • Dee says:

      I would advise them not to riot. Because that is just what they want to do. So that they can kill them off and be able to have their SYG law to protect them. If it comes back not guilty, this does not mean Trayvon died in vain. He opened up our wisdom and understanding to a law that we have to do something about. This is what he would want us to do. He was a friend of Rachel when nobody else may have wanted to hang with.

      This shows us that he had a good heart for people. Yes, kids may have their fights when they are young. However, that does not take anything away from whom he really was, a young 17 years old that had the rest of his life to go. However, Trayvon happened to come personally with the devil on that dark and rainy night. And he may have taken Trayvon’s body, but he couldn’t touch his soul, because that belonged to God.

      Now he does not hurt any more and is never going to be unhappy, because in the arm of Christ, there is rest, peace and happiness. We are those that have to continue to make it in a world that is growing colder and colder. So don’t cry for him, cry for ourselves and this evil world when live in.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        Dee, I agree with you. Lord knows I do not want them to riot, We don’t need anymore innocent bloodshed. What people need to do is organize, protest, and stand up and speak against unequal justice and laws.

        However, I’m mighty afraid that if they acquit Zimmerman it might be the straw that breaks the camel’s back. Tension and anger have built up to a boiling point. You can kick your pet dog too many times and he’ll eventually turn around and bite you.

      • Jun says:

        I am not so sure because the people who riot could also claim SYG if they kill someone while rioting and then cite the Zimmerman vs State case that you can go after someone, and kill them, and it’s self defense

        I feel bad for the kid, but I feel even worse for the State of Florida by having Fogen opening a can of worms for a rising homicide rate because of Fogen, any killing can be justified

        The big question is do they want to make their state safe and curb the violence or do they want the violence to rise?

        So many violent offenders can quote the Zimmerman vs State as legal precedent, in Florida and use comic strips to be appealed and exonerated based on fantasy

        I am Canadian but we have something known as a charter challenge and I feel the same can be done with the amendments in this case in how Trayvon was treated by Bill Lee and Fogen and his lawyer and his gang, for Americans because the way Trayvon was treated was unconstitutional

        Anyways, we are jumping the gun, and these people on the jury live in Seminole County too

        I understand that the residents want to be able to defense themselves and they would not want it taken away from the victim, which in this case is Trayvon, and they very well could be a victim

        I doubt they want a complete stranger to the whole neighborhood there, running around stalking and chasing their children, confronting and killing them, and not allow them to defend themselves and allow them to steal their voice too

    • dianetrotter says:

      Over the weekend someone suggested to me that there would be a riot…”get some of them.” I asked which “them” the person referred to. It is an opportunity to get killed and make a bad situation much worse. Gangs do revenge killings all the time and never, never get even. Many young and old die as collateral damage. I pray everyone on this list squashes that nonsense whenever it comes up.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        We just have to pray and ask the Lord to give us the words to speak to them to prevent more violence. That’s all we can do.

  46. IF a black man armed with a 9mm jumps out of his car, chases an unarmed white kid & kills him would pundits be talking about self defense?

    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      Nope! They’d be talking execution.

    • MDH says:

      If a 158lbs white boy had a 9mm and had shot a 208lbs black man who had come up on him in the dark after saying “f”in punks” and “assholes”, he would have walked because the jury would have ruled it was a clear cut case of self defense.

      Instead, we have to have our intelligence insulted by the argument that 208lbs GZ had no choice in the face of a 158lbs black boy with “natural born athletic prowess” but to shoot lest he be beaten to death.

      Why is T’s right to self defense blithely ignored?

      Why is GZ’s apparent right to trample on T’s fourth amendment rights ignored?

      Post racial USA, my ass.

  47. breelee says:

    Ellen Comisar ‏@elesscom 5h
    Read RT @NewYorker “This case is about a defendant’s presumed innocence and a dead teen’s presumed guilt” #Zimmerman

    Aint that the truth?

  48. I left this way up above to Xena. Bringing it down>>>>>>>>>

    Xena, can you condense this to where we can understand that even if it is a lessor charge the 10-20-Life Firearm Enhancement rule will send him away for a long time?

    Here’s an excerpt:

    If the jury finds that a firearm was used, Aggravated Battery is reclassified to a First Degree Felony, which increases the maximum sentence to 30 years in prison or 30 years of probation.

    However, because Aggravated Battery is an enumerated felony, if the jury finds that a firearm was used to kill Trayvon Martin, the judge would be required to impose a 25 year minimum-mandatory prison sentence and could sentence him to life in prison if she so decided.

    It is explained in detail there that just any lessor charge he gets many years.

  49. Puck says:

    In trying to introduce many, many points of “reasonable doubt,” from my perspective, the defense has in fact proposed a series of unlikely, even ridiculous, hypotheses that are by no means “reasonable.” Sure, Trayvon wanted to bash every side of GZ’s head, so he twisted GZ’s head each time. Why no neck injury, then?

    It’s beyond a reasonable doubt, not beyond a shadow of a doubt.

    • ZCBest says:

      Boom! You asked the question I have been fussing about with my reasonable self. And he elaborated on a back injury though. Said his back was sore, see any issues walking on video though? Perhaps that is what his head was connected to since he was brutally head bashed against the concrete. Would explain why he is a butthead at least! He didn’t think he should invent that injury because he was never attacked like that. Zidiot Nation.

      • Puck says:

        We know he had back problems long before then: he had a special ergonomic or whatever chair at work that he chained to his desk so no one would steal it.

        And we have to keep in mind proponderance of evidence. It clearly points to GZ’s guilt. What the defense suggests exculpates GZ is to a large degree really hard-to-believe what-ifs. Just because something is hypothetically possible doesn’t make it reasonable.

        Moreover, if they jury believes that most of GZ’s story is a lie, then why should they believe that he’s being truthful about the confrontation and “fight”? Especially taken in light of no GZ DNA or blood on Trayvon’s hands and the other evidence we all know. And then GZ says Trayvon got up and said “you got me” and, in one account, was still cursing even as GZ got on top of him and “spread his arms out.” Really? The jury is going to believe that because some paid expert said Trayvon would have been alive for, what, 10 to 15 seconds? As opposed to Dr. Rao, who’s the complete opposite of smarmy asshole expert-whore Di Maio, and far more credible? And does anyone really think that these six women will completely disregard Rachel Jeantel’s entire five or six (or longer) hour testimony in which she never wavered once from her story, because she told a couple of white lies not directly related to her testimony? Every time West tried to put words in her mouth, or get her to use his terminology (e.g. confrontation, or Trayvon “approaching”), she would catch him and correct it immediately, no matter how long she had been on the stand. Her story was solid from beginning to end. Now, take that against GZ’s various stories and the walk-through where he’s clearly trying to figure out his story on-the-fly and coming off as a total liar, and his appearance on Hannity in which he not only lied about SYG but also expressed not an iota of regret, smiling as he said so. Who is the jury going to go with?

      • Malisha says:

        OMG his injuries do not matter! Where is it written that you’re allowed to kill somebody with the guarantee that you do not even get a scratch in the process? Killing Black kids might be a dangerous job; perhaps Fogen should have stayed a telemarketer instead.

  50. dianetrotter says:

    Nancy Grace is going off on HLN. She asked pundits if they feel the prosecution has rolled over. She talked about the character witness today (lady whose home was broken into). She says prosecution should rebut with the leader of the anger mgmt program or something from his record.

    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      Nancy Grace seems to be the only that knows that Zimmerman is lying, You can see it in her eyes that she does not buy his stories or the way the case is going.

    • J4TMinATL says:

      Good night all. I’m headed to bed with a heavy heart. I will see y’all in the morning as we unite as one for J4TM.

      I’m listening to one last song before bed: Lean On Me by Bill Withers. I hope you do too.

      Kisses to Trayvon who is in heaven.

    • boyd says:

      The prosecution got none of that in. I am stll shocked

  51. Unabogie says:

    The more I think about it, the more I’m upset that Agent Fleischman was “unavailable” to testify. How could this have come about? If the prosecution was planning a rebuttal, they must have had Fleischman in mind since last week when the defense opened the door with the “meek” references. So how could they not have worked out getting him there to Florida? And if he couldn’t be there in person, have one of those Skype/Facetime sessions and this time get it right. I see no reason why this witness could not be there. Does anyone have info on exactly what happened with him? I missed that part today.

    • Unabogie says:

      Actually, I just watched this, and disregarding what O’Mara told to the press, Judge Nelson said they would take argument on this in the morning.

      Jump to about 12:30 here and see if I’m right?

      • Susan Moore says:

        If you get to the end of the video, however, she says she will instruct the Sheriff to bring the jury in at 1:00 for closing arguments. This has been very confusing.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        i believe that you are. ignore o’mara — his statements cannot be treated as fact any more than his client’s.

  52. endlessummer76 says:

    I keep wondering what would have happened if the defendant had just rolled down his window & yelled to Trayvon “what are you doing?” If he had just hollered at the kid the whole thing could have been avoided.

    He was on the phone with the cops. The cops were on their way. It seems so obvious that he wanted to play out some hero scenario that he had cooked up in his mind.

    • abbyj1 says:

      endlesssummer, If he had rolled down the window, that would have defeated his pursuit of Trayvon that had already been in motion for quite some time—tracking him by car with the lights out. And it would also have defeated GZ’s primary purpose: to kill Trayvon, no matter what. It’s what he WANTED to do, just as the prosecution stated in the opening. He wanted to kill him.

      • Exactly Abby! That whole phone call to NEN was a setup from the getgo just so he could hunt a young black male down. It was all apart of the plan. I saw right through this call when I first heard about this case.

        • PiranhaMom says:


          Zimmerman wanted to capture a YBM and hand him over to the cops when they arrived, the get big praise & hosannas.

          1. Assumed YBM was a crook.
          2. Stupidly, did not know it’s illegal to hunt humans.
          3. Was not authorized to pursue and detain anyone (was not a cop).
          4. Bungled the encounter with Trayon, so Trayvon could only be scared by their contact and try to escape
          5. Shot and killed Trayon as a cover-up of his bungling and illegal acts.

          So, it was Trayvon who ended up paying the price for Zimmerman’s bungling and illegal acts. That is why justice for Trayvon’s death is so important.

          Sending Trayvon’s killer to jail is the message needed for those who want to do what Zimmerman did. A big price must be paid: “your ass in jail!

  53. Jun says:

    Although jurors are not supposed to, I have seen them in other cases wonder why the defendant does not explain themselves and why they are so scared to explain themselves

    I am fairly sure the jurors are wondering why the defendant will not explain himself why he killed a 17 year old boy, who only had candy and tea on him

    All I have seen the defense offer is pure speculation

    None of the witnesses stated they saw Fogen shoot Trayvon while he was leaning over him or any blows being thrown, or anything happening at the T point, and that to me shows he is lying about something

    • kllypyn says:

      No sounds of a fist hitting a person’s head. that has a very distinctive sound.

      • abbyj1 says:

        kllypyn, True, it has a very distinctive sound, and it also leaves wounds on the knuckles of the person hitting. It often splits knuckles open and blood spills out from the hitter. Lots of bones in the hand can be broken and fractured from hitting the skull of another. We know that GZ didn’t need a bandaid, but also there is no evidence that Trayvon sustained any such damage to his hands. IMO, he could not have beaten against GZ’s skull without causing brusing, bleeding, and split skin on his own hands. We all know this!

  54. breelee says:

    I like these posts, found on f.b.

    “If you can defend yourself on the streets with a gun…you should defend yourself in Court!!!”

    “All George Zimmerman had to do is stay put in his car and wait on the REAL MEN to handle the situation. Trayvon Benjamin Martin would be alive today…”

    • You know that is so true. But, I can’t stop believing that George would not have been satisfied until he killed a young black male. If it wasn’t Tray, sadly it was going to be someone else.

  55. Sophia33 says:

    My posts are showing up now?

  56. Sophia33 says:

    You know the one thing that I think may hang Zimmerman that no one is really talking about? I think when they finished playing that Hannity video and he was laughing after having said that he had no regrets and it was God’s plan. I think looking back that may be the thing to seal the deal.

    • willisnewton says:

      Each juror will “seal the deal” on a different aspect of the case IMO.

      There was a star witness, Racael Jentel who withstood a 5 hour cross examination and never budged from a quite credible story that can be corroborated to the second.

      There is the inconsistent testimony of GZ, and the clubhouse video which hopefully will be discussed in closing arguments.

      There is the simple fact that GZ won’t take the stand and face cross examination – despite the jury instruction, this will be a factor for some jurors I am certain.

      And a zillion other things, not the least of which the defense witnesses all laid it on too thick. They were over the top, as was the defense team, whereas the martin family showed true class and dignity. This counts for plenty to a jury of all women.

  57. Deborah says:

    I wonder if the defense has played a trick on the court. Did they intentionally bring up Trayvon’s phone records etc and ask for them to be entered to force Judge Nelson to give them something else they wanted i.e the animation. I mean it seems strange to me that they would ask for those to be entered considering that it had been decided at the start of the trial that those records were in limine. I thought once something like that had been decided, there would be no changing the judge’s order. I know she has been bending over backwards to seem fair to both sides so maybe that was their tactic? Being in the public eye has made this even harder for her, as the trial is being watched around the world. I think the defense is taking advantage of that and behaving badly to get what they want.
    I also wonder about the prosecution’s lack of preparedness on the matter of rebuttal witnesses. Up to now they really don’t seem to have laid out a coherent theory regarding what they think happened that night. What about the witnesses who saw Zimmerman on top of the boy. Isn’t it possible different people were on top at different times during the struggle?
    Also when O’Mara demonstrated with the dummy, why did the prosecution not point out that it would have been very difficult for a skinny boy to lift a 204 pound man and bang him on the ground in that ridiculous way? Or did they??? I find it hard to believe that they could have missed that opportunity but they have missed so many others I suppose I should not be surprised.

    • type1juve says:

      I just wonder why they were even allowed to use a prop provided by the state. That just seems wrong to me, but I guess that’s the way it’s done.

      • breelee says:

        I agree, Guy should’ve said: “you’ve got your own dummy sitting at the defense table, use your own”.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        yes, that would be normal. had the defense brought in such a prop for questioning, the prosecution would ask to borrow it on cross.

    • Yorazigo says:

      I think the prosecution couldn’t put out a theory because it would be only guesswork – nothing they could prove.

      Also, animation can be used as an exhibit only – shown only once, presumably in their closing. It’s not evidence that will go into the jury room to be studied, watched over and over, and considered and discussed as “facts” of the case.

      • Deborah says:

        my friend thinks the defense will play it as many times as they possibly can in their closing so it sinks into the audience’s brain and they accept it as truth. I truly hope the prosecution is smart enough to laugh it off as Jun suggested below. I like the prosecution team and I think they are very smart people but I believe they could have done much better..

      • fauxmccoy says:

        they do not have to put out a theory.

        the need to disprove the defendant’s own statements and demonstrate his lies, along with the specific elements of the crime, which are pretty much established fact.

        as was said on the first ruling in judgement for acquittal —
        “there are only two witnesses to this crime. one is dead, the other is a liar.”

    • Jun says:

      Not really

      it’s a cartoon work of fantasy and any demonstrative evidence has to be supported by actual evidence before it can be demonstrated

      There’s nothing to support random teleportations or the positions Omara claims happens, therefore, the state should object to it

      However, I dont know if the state will object but they should object to what is shown if the defense lays no foundation to form their assertions

      Since the state gets final words, they can straight up laugh at the cartoon and call it a work of fiction, as it is a cartoon

      • Deborah says:

        Thank you all for taking the time to respond. There are so many smart ideas the members of this page have suggested and I really wish that the prosecution had used the power of the internet better. Many of you did so much of their work for them yet they ignored it all as if they never knew. How can they be so clueless in this day and age?? I used to hang out on bcclist and have seen many of those people on here and on JusticeQuest as well. I was so happy and excited at the great work you all did . I believe if you all were on the prosecution case, we would have this case in the bag. If they had even paid attention to half of what was written on your blogs, Zimmerman’s conviction would have been signed, sealed and delivered.
        What about the gun recoil possibly having broken George’s nose? I know they can’t prove it but surely that would have been another possibility for the jury to consider instead of Fogen’s and Goode’s cooked up scenario that Trayvon was on top of him beating him to death while he lay there and did nothing, yet had the presence of mind to reach for a gun in an inside holster (??) behind his back and shoot a boy straight through the heart. It just stretches the bounds of credibility and I cannot understand why so many are so ready to believe the lies of this Devil in disguise. Anyway have to be up early to catch the 9 AM court opening. Be blessed!!

  58. Lynn says:

    In the reenactment GZ says he grabs my head…head, people!

    Why was MOM squeezing that dummy’s neck and gripping the bejesus out of those shoulders of a foam dummy?

    Was 205 lb GZ so squishy that Trayvon could get that kind of grip? Oh, wait. GZ said he grabbed my head!

    Not to mention 6’4” MOM sitting back on the dummy’s thighs, near his knees. MOM is able to pull the dummy into a complete sitting position.

    Does the jury not have a clue? The tv lawyers sure don’t. They all are going on about how the defense gave the better floorshow. HA!

  59. trina cosbie says:

    Prosecution if your reading this, I hope you include in your closing that allowing this man to go free after following & continuing to pursue after being advised not, is like giving every sick pedophile, rapist, kidnapper, murderer etc; free reign to follow our young folks because not listening to a trained 911 dispatch to stop following is not against the law. Furthermore, not being able to defend themselves if they are in imminent fear because they are being followed by a stranger for no damn reason……

    • Malisha says:

      The message is if somebody creepy is following you, kill him.

    • Jasmine says:

      I am so in agreement with you. Every crime seems to involve following. They watch and wait for their victim to be vulnerable and then they strike. Anyone with common sense knows that and for the life of me I cannot figure out why no one has pointed that very crucial fact out.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        it is a jury of all women.

        closing arguments after each piece of evidence is connected and a time line established. elements of the crime are clearly defined as is reasonable doubt. it is the time to say

        ‘envision a teenager, alone, in a dark alley, being followed by a stranger, how would he feel? he had already been followed by this defendant in that defendant’s vehicle. now, how would he know that this person did not intend to hurt him? this defendant chose not to introduce himself as neighborhood watch and announce that he intended no harm, although he had plenty of opportunity. what would this teen do if this defendant got close enough to him that he could reach out and touch him?

        … and just then, this person reaches into their pocket, by the defendant’s own words. what was the defendant reaching for? how would this teen know?

        how would he feel? how would he react if he had already tried running, but now felt he could not escape? wouldn’t this teen have the right to defend himself?

        how would you feel if it was your teenager or yourself?’

        then play those death shrieks and let them deliberate

        (note, am not a lawyer and not positive that last question could fly, but i’m betting the prosecution does)

  60. I understand why the voice expert wasn’t allowed in but why not the clean version of the talking. Where TM was heard saying I don’t know them and I’m begging you, that would have been the nail in the coffen for fogen.

    • type1juve says:

      It wasn’t allowed in because it WOULD have been the nail in the coffin for him. There are so many unanswered questions about the way this case was handled. If there is no further investigation by the DOJ then we may never know. I would still like to know what was on his phone.

      • tryagainplease12 says:

        T1j that’s my point to much evidence left on the table that would be no doubt fogen going on a long holiday, now it’s where he will get off on reasonable doubt (I hope not), but this case was a easy case to win without any doubt.

  61. Jasmine says:

    I think that I will forever wonder how it was okay for Fogen to follow him? I will always wonder why Fogen was believed from the moment the ‘police’ came on the scene?

    Yes the saying if true. History is written by the victor or as we can say the survivor. RIP Trayvon this will not be forgotten.

    • Nef05 says:

      If it comforts you, know that Trayvon’s murderer will be no more remembered, by history, than Emmett Till’s

  62. diary73 says:

    My emotions are taking over right now. Typically very strong. Crying right now. Sniff.

    • Rachael says:

      Hope that use those in closing.

    • ZCBest says:

      I pray.

    • Yorazigo says:

      Excellent article and questions, KA.

    • esentrick says:

      Excellent article! Those questions are probably the same questions the jury will be asking themselves!

      How did George lose a fight to a kid he outweighed, when George paid over $100 per month for MMA classes for a year before this fight (which was subsequently named as the “George Zimmerman Training Program”) and he was the aggressor coming towards Trayvon?

      How did he get his head slammed 20 times into the concrete and never suffer a concussion or even need a stitch?

      How did George pull out his gun from inside his pants on his right buttock when he was sitting on it and Trayvon’s leg blocked it?

      How come the voice stops immediately after the gunshot?

      Justice 4 Trayvon! Hoodies Up!

  63. YQ says:

    If not guilty, then perhaps riots… I don’t want to entertain that thought, tho. Fogen will always be guilty BECAUSE HE ASSUMED AND HE WAS WRONG, and STILL HE HAS NOT ADMITTED THAT HE WAS. My cousin was arraigned and charged with vehicular manslaughter and sentenced to 60 years in prison in that same state that I call home. Steep sentence??? Hell yeah, but he made that choice so he has to live with it. And just not too long ago, a Jacksonville woman fired off warning shots at her abusive husband and caught 20 years in prison. She didn’t even kill the guy and she still got 20 years folks. But she has to live with her choice, unfortunately. So Fogen should be forced to live with his choice also, while he is in prison. That’s justice.

    Florida has a long, long history of questionable law enforcement procedures. Look into the cases of Arthur McDuffie, or Tyron Lewis and look at the results. So, the DOJ expects riots before the verdict is even read. Seriously, FUCK THE DOJ. They should have did something when the SPD threw the case, now they want to be pro-active?? GTFOH. I had my experience with those hotshots down there too. It’s not fun to have a cop shine a flashlight in your face with his gun drawn just because you looked out of place. No apology when my background came back clean and the excuse for being where I was, was actually valid. I’m still sour at that….

    This Trayvon Martin case is the chance for the State to get shit right. You can’t profile and follow people around because of what you think is about to happen. The world doesn’t, and has not ever worked that way. You have to actually commit the crime first. That was not a good shoot because the young tart stood his ground and paid for it with his life, all because he got profiled and followed, all because he was black. And it shouldn’t be that hard for us because there is now proof that all of us are not crooks, thugs, or criminally active. But when we get treated that way in the world, that’s what some of us can’t help becoming. So the riots may or may not come but I would be indifferent either way. Just prayers for my family to lay low and be safe. In hindsight, that fat fuck named Fogen wouldn’t be worth it, not at all and I definitely wouldn’t exchange the safety of my loved ones for a not guilty verdict. No sir.

    • breelee says:

      YQ, great post and a sad one. {{{hugs}}}

    • Girlp says:

      The nuthouse say’s the DOJ expects riots I googled and binged the statement made by the poster who said the DOJ was sending troops or whatever and did not find it. What is being reported is that Broward County has released a video asking that all sides not to riot no matter what happens. DOJ is not involved, if something like that did happen I think the Governer would call out the National Guard if necessary but I am sick of people assuming that AA riot everytime something goes wrong. People did not riot to bring this case to light they PROTESTED their is a difference.

      • YQ says:

        okay, thanks for the clarification. But protests do become riots and things like that happen. I hope riots don’t happen because nothing ever gets solved that way and AAs are always frowned upon as a result. This whole Zimmerman case is bs. I think the jury already reached the verdict before coming in. I hope 6 women will convict. Its very possible, but people can be racist. Sorry for the rant but HLN had me fumed.

        • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

          HLN had you and me both upset. They treat it like it is joke or a game and that is what is pissing me off because a child is dead.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        They want them to riot, so that they can gas them to death.

      • Nef05 says:

        They should. I lived (as a child) through the riots of ’67, in Detroit. Now, all riots are not the same, and I do NOT advocate violence on persons or property.

        That said – if the feds believe the AA community and their supporters (Skolnik, etc) will sit back and accept the STATE SANCTIONED MURDER OF A BLACK CHILD, they’re delusional.

        It has not been THAT long since the STATE allowed the sale of black children from their parents, never to be seen again. If they think we’re going to just “get over” the disappearance of our children, and the state sanctioning this BS – they are vastly mistaken!

        The only prevention is a conviction.

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:

          We should all be praying that wisdom will rule the day….the wisdom to know what response will be the most effective without bringing harm to our AA brothers and sisters.

        • Tzar says:

          I agree with you 100%
          there is a time for everything
          even going crazy
          there is a time when insult and injury goes too far
          and when they are allowing the murder and vilification of unarmed children and of a whole group of people, that time is here.

          You can’t sit back and let assholes think asshole behavior will go unpunished and unchallenged because guess what? they are assholes and don’t have boundaries, that is partly how you know they are assholes.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:


            I do agree that they have no boundaries, just a dark goal……that if you give them an inch that they will take another and another and another.

      • Malisha says:

        This is part of the defense propaganda. I hope the propaganda backfires on them, as did some of their idiotic pre-trial fantasy rants.

    • Jeanette says:

      The (blah) riots meme that has been heavily circulating since the trial opening bothers me to no end and I want to be clear–I’m not inferring any agenda on your part. I surely hope the DOJ hasn’t actually attached themselves to this mess.

      As a former 10-year south Florida resident who lived in that region’s version of Sanford and, during the course of my stay, resided in the most segregated city in the country at that time, let me assure you, there will be no Sanford riots.

      From my time there as a resident, working in an elected official’s office, and a marriage to a native, rural Black Floridian born before the Civil Rights Act, were an acquittal to take place it would be chalked up by many locals to little more than the way things work there. There are a surprising number of people in those parts that are just content they aren’t being lynched anymore. Responses by prospective Black jurors in this case are an insight into that reality.

      • Malisha says:

        I WILL bet, though, that NO 17-year-olds will be safe (white, Black or Hispanic) in the streets any more if Fogen is acquitted.

        • Jeanette says:

          I wholeheartedly agree.

          I’m a biracial woman with Black children, raised in a White family, with White and Hispanic nieces and nephews. Recently, I find myself in serious conflict with my brother over issues of race and he can’t seem to grasp the concept that when I advocate for rights and dignities, I can’t help but to think of my family in it’s entirety, and the implications of not pushing for justice and equality for everyone, in it’s purest form. The consequences of this case’s decision, intended or otherwise, are huge.

          Would I accept the treatment of Trayvon and his family visited upon my own extended family? Absolutely not and my solemn prayer is that they would never have to experience such a thing.

          • Malisha says:

            I also believe there will be some incidents where desperately unhappy Black men of a certain age, perhaps after getting a bad diagnosis or something and facing the proverbial “six months to live,” will go out hunting for white teen-agers. My kid is white. If he were a teen and Fogen were acquitted, he’d be grounded until he was either 30 or armed and dangerous. He would NEVER be allowed to go to the store for candy. ANY STORE.

        • Jun says:

          I honestly agree with Malisha

          I do not feel the jury is stupid enough to be hustled by Fogen’s nonsense and they have time to deliberate and think together

          However, if the jury does something ridiculous, the legal precedent is going to make it dangerous for women and children

          Look at this scenario

          A man targets a woman, and begins stalking her aka following her at night time. The women notices while she is on the phone with a friend and tries to make a run for it. The man eventually catches up to the woman and confronts her, and asks her what she is doing there and proceeds to grab her and get on top of her, causing her to drop her phone and a friend hears the woman yell “get off”. A resident notices and calls 911 and she captures the woman screaming for help and yelping, so the man shoots her, ending the screams. The man has a bloody nose with minor bleeding and a couple scratches. The man goes around telling everyone it was self defense and that he was screaming for help, and even gets his family to go on TV telling everyone he is screaming for help. His defense lawyer tries to object to anyone identifying the screams to be that of a woman. One of the man’s friends gets up and claims that when in danger, the defendant screams like a little girl. The man claims self defense and that he was attacked at the T as he was searching for an address. The man’s lawyer cites the State Vs Zimmerman case that he was following but not following as the woman was skipping, and that the woman would not stop beating him.

          All other states would have charged the man with aggravated stalking and murder in the second degree or first degree and convicted the man.

          Florida? Depending on what happens here, will be the key to if the residents can be safe and that law enforcement will help them

          I’m actually appalled that this nonsense is even being entertained and I do not feel the ladies will buy Fogen’s story but who knows

          Anyways, even if there is a riot, all the rioters that kill someone can cite the Zimmerman case and claim self defense and SYG, LOL

          I am not the one responsible for opening the can of worms here or pandora’s box if that happens because they could have easily charged and convicted Fogen long ago

      • Nef05 says:

        There are a surprising number of people in those parts that are just content they aren’t being lynched anymore. Responses by prospective Black jurors in this case are an insight into that reality. Did you SERIOUSLY just say that? Does your black spouse know this is how you think?

        Content not to be LYNCHED. There may or may not be (blah) riots – really – (blah) riots? REALLY????.

        • Jeanette says:

          Just so we don’t have a misunderstanding, I’m technically biracial, but I self-identify as Black. I’m familiar with you from another corner of the Internet where we may actually be friends, but I can’t be sure because I no longer visit regularly. Although anecdotal in nature, I offered my perspective, which if any bias exists, is offered as a born & raised Northerner. The referenced husband now holds the title of husband #1 for unrelated reasons. My experiences are based on my residency, public experiences, familial connections and extensive travel throughout the State, excepting North Florida. As just one of many examples, my ex-husband & his siblings, repeatedly and with some degree of amusement often tell a story of a white shopkeeper training his in-store parrot to say “n___rs stealing” when they shopped as kids. They didn’t seem at all bothered, but amused.

          Back in the North & ten years later, the apathy in this instance and a plethora of others still haunt me and the post-slavery “don’t make trouble” responses still hold significant weight there. The reaction is not generally how we do things up here. I hope you see where I’m coming from now.

          FLA is a big state and it’s not all Disney & beaches. There are probably a hundred “Sanfords” there.

          • Nef05 says:

            “Misunderstanding” is done.

            I’ve been to Florida SEVERAL times. What prejudice would make you assume I hadn’t?

            1. I’m not “technically” anything. I’m black. Why do I get the feeling “technically” means, I’m black, but I’m passing… I AM Black, Filipino, Caucasian and Cherokee, and proud of it. I’ve self idendentified as black from as soon as cognitive development allowed me to.
            2. Born and raised in Detroit (Northern) in 1963 when interracial was barely legal and 4 ys before the Loving decision.
            3. A born and raised Northernor’s “bias” is neither just being happy not to be lynched, not being referrered to as “blah”.
            4. You act you’re the only person who gains life experience by traveling. No one else get’s that benefit? Seriously? Did you not see my heritige? Do you not think there were any conflicts, or is is only YOUR family?
            5. Yes, I see EXACTLY where you’re coming from. You’re willing and eager to tell everyone how much you know (Now, of course – where was she when we had to stand against the crowd?) because of your heratige, husband, apathy, distress of slavery – yet you have not ONCE stood up to the crowd to voice your distaste for these this you so despise. Tell your story – it’s SO unique.

            BTW – I don’t know you on HP or FB. Unfriend me IMMEDIATELY. I have no desire to be friends with a token who would say things like (Blah) riot, or content just not to be L:YNCHED.

    • abbyj1 says:

      I hear you, YQ, and you have to know that so many of us feel the sadness and rage of the easy discriminatory behavior that goes on. It’s the unacknowledged racism that no one wants to admit to publicly. Don’t worry. We know. We’ve seen it.

      With GZ, it all came down to GZ having the audacity to believe that Trayvon was “out of place.” We all know what that means. It’s the 8,000 lb. elephant in the courtroom. Keep safe, keep your family safe, and know that there are so many of us who understand exactly what you’re saying. Keep the faith that justice will be served.

  64. Dennis says:

    I hope the last thing the prosecution does in the closing is play the tape of Trayvon begging for his life before psychopath Fogen shot him.

  65. Ty Flair says:

    What time court start.

  66. sadlyyes says:

    i cant listen to that child,i just cant,it tears me up this all willNOT be in vain..good nite all

    • MrSykes says:

      Yeah I’m gonna have to disconnect for a while myself and emotionally prepare for whatever may come from the jury. This whole event has shaken me to the core.

  67. ambernjcr1 says:

    While listening and watching this video I shead a few tears. This is so sad what has happen to this child. But im praying every day and night for justice. Justice for Trayvon Martin, hoodies up!

    • breelee says:

      I had to stop it, bawling my eyes out. What a beautiful, heartfelt tribute. We have to make sure this is heard, pass it on. We didn’t even need a trial, just have the jury listen and watch this video. Thank you for sharing, stunning.

      • ambernjcr1 says:

        I have passed it on on Facebook…. Everyone please do the same. I’m sure it will make a lot of people sad cause it sure made me. But it really needs to be past on and put out there. We all also have to remember that no matter what happens the Martin/Faulton family wants this to peace full ether way. Because justice will be served on way or another. Karma is a B****. But please everyone pass on as difficult as it may be. Good night all!

      • breelee says:

        Went to youtube, this has been out a YEAR and only 28,000 hits. I’ve shared on my F.B., and I hope everyone else does. If it wasn’t so sad, this would be a hit, and truly should be anyway. I made it through the whole song, wasn’t easy. When they show the little boy and then “Trayvon” at the 7-11, that’s when I lost it. These girls wrote it and sang, they’re amazing. Great find Amber.

      • tashatexas77048 says:

        No way in heck I’m watching….been on the verge of tears all day and if I watch it it’s all over. I’m sure it’s touching. May justice be served cold to the “Shimmy in the Grass but Get No Grass Stains”, bastard.

    • ZCBest says:

      That touched my soul. I felt a sense of pride in these young people and their message. I cried. I prayed. I smiled for Trayvon and all those seeking justice for him. It was magical and overwhelming to watch but I am more confident than ever that justice will prevail.

    • trina cosbie says:

      WOW….Nothing but chills & tears!!! Thx for sharing!!

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      When I first watched this video a few weeks ago, I cried tears of gratitude as I recognize in these precious children our country’s future leaders.

      I realized that they have given me a glimpse of the future of our country in their hands….a glimpse of possibilities, a glimpse of directions!

      May it be this! Amen.

    • This was too beautiful! Thanks for sharing.

  68. breelee says:

    1st, Happy Birthday Looo Looo, sorry it wasn’t a better day court wise.

    This is worth the read, and did make me feel a bit better. Its on the Justice For Trayvon Face Book, if you’re worried about the link.

    Thank you for posting LLMPapa, you’ve been missed. Even though you don’t know me, I’ve followed you for a long time. You Dear Sir, are the real deal. I wish you had been arguing in court for our Trayvon. I wouldn’t have a single worry if you had.

    Today was the 1st time I’ve heard Aggravated Assault is on the table. Can anyone lay out each possible charge and the punishments please? AA doesn’t sound like it’d give him much of anything, hoping I’m wrong. Oh, and will the jury be told what each punishment would be? I’m hoping not, as they might not know they’d be giving him a pretty good prison stay for manslaughter. TIA

    • MrSykes says:

      I think the 10-20-life rule in Florida is an enhancement on aggravated assault and other crimes when it results in the death of another. So even an agg assault conviction could result in a doubling of the original sentence; i.e. instead of 15 years, 30.

      • sadlyyes says:

        true,dat…any charge will send foagy away with no pizza for at least 20 years…lets NOT despair yet!


      Any conviction will carry a lengthy prison for the defendant,the more the merrier.

      The judge will be bound to impose the maximum sentence,,,
      25 to life is a mandatory law for using a gun and convicted.

      Injuring or killing a victim by firing a gun during a crime. 25 Years to Life

    • Xena says:

      Aggravated Assault with a deadly weapon (in Florida) carries a mandatory sentence of 20 years. It’s what Alexander got for shooting a gun above her husband’s head.

      • Nef05 says:

        Just as an FYI, Xena – it’s 25-life, mandatory. Up to and including “natural” life. Zimmerman resulted in you mentioned Alexander didn’t hit anyone.

        “775.087 Possession or use of weapon; aggravated battery; felony reclassification; minimum sentence.—[…] 3. Any person who is convicted of a felony or an attempt to commit a felony listed in sub-subparagraphs (a)1.a.-q., regardless of whether the use of a weapon is an element of the felony, and during the course of the commission of the felony such person discharged a “firearm” or “destructive device” as defined in s. 790.001 and, as the result of the discharge, death or great bodily harm was inflicted upon any person, the convicted person shall be sentenced to a minimum term of imprisonment of not less than 25 years and not more than a term of imprisonment of life in prison

        (b) Subparagraph (a)1., subparagraph (a)2., or subparagraph (a)3. does not prevent a court from imposing a longer sentence of incarceration as authorized by law in addition to the minimum mandatory sentence, or from imposing a sentence of death pursuant to other applicable law. Subparagraph (a)1., subparagraph (a)2., or subparagraph (a)3. does not authorize a court to impose a lesser sentence than otherwise required by law.
        Notwithstanding s. 948.01, adjudication of guilt or imposition of sentence shall not be suspended, deferred, or withheld, and the defendant is not eligible for statutory gain-time under s. 944.275 or any form of discretionary early release, other than pardon or executive clemency, or conditional medical release under s. 947.149, prior to serving the minimum sentence.
        (c) If the minimum mandatory terms of imprisonment imposed pursuant to this section exceed the maximum sentences authorized by s. 775.082, s. 775.084, or the Criminal Punishment Code under chapter 921, then the mandatory minimum sentence must be imposed. If the mandatory minimum terms of imprisonment pursuant to this section are less than the sentences that could be imposed as authorized by s. 775.082, s. 775.084, or the Criminal Punishment Code under chapter 921, then the sentence imposed by the court must include the mandatory minimum term of imprisonment as required in this section.
        (d) It is the intent of the Legislature that offenders who actually possess, carry, display, use, threaten to use, or attempt to use firearms or destructive devices be punished to the fullest extent of the law, and the minimum terms of imprisonment imposed pursuant to this subsection shall be imposed for each qualifying felony count for which the person is convicted.”

        IF he’s convicted, fogen will receive the maximum minimum and the judge has absolutely no legal discretion.

        • Xena says:

          @Nef05. Thanks for the correction. I understand that O’Mara and/or Vanilla Ice Cream West are going to argue against lesser charges on jury instructions. It’s going to be interesting.

          • Xena, can you condense this to where we can understand that even if it is a lessor charge the 10-20-Life Firearm Enhancement rule will send him away for a long time?

            Here’s an excerpt:

            If the jury finds that a firearm was used, Aggravated Battery is reclassified to a First Degree Felony, which increases the maximum sentence to 30 years in prison or 30 years of probation.

            However, because Aggravated Battery is an enumerated felony, if the jury finds that a firearm was used to kill Trayvon Martin, the judge would be required to impose a 25 year minimum-mandatory prison sentence and could sentence him to life in prison if she so decided.


          • Nef05 says:


            ANY felony conviction, involving use of a gun resulting in death/wounding, is a mandatory 25-life. There is no out, no good behavior or parole. It’s 25 to “natural” life, period.

            From your own citation:

            However, because Aggravated Battery is an enumerated felony, if the jury finds that a firearm was used to kill Trayvon Martin, the judge would be required to impose a 25 year minimum-mandatory prison sentence and could sentence him to life in prison if she so decided.

            Between the actual posted statute, Xena’s agreement and your own citation, I’m not exactly clear on what part you DIDN’T understand. Perhaps you could explain it to me, since “I’M” the one who’s clearly comprehension disabled. I really need your help.

        • Jun says:

          there’s mandatory minimums

          even if they charged him with aggravated stalking, which i feel happened, since Fogen killed someone with a firearm during that act, even that is 25 years in prison

          • Nef05 says:

            Yep, it is. BTW – wasn’t trying to be snarky ot anything. Just know you take pride in the integrity of your own site, so I wanted to make some small contribution with the actual statute you could quote. 🙂

          • Nef05 says:

            Oops, Jun – that was for Xena. My bad.

      • ada4750 says:

        This case is a total shame. Classic overcharged case from A. Corey hoping to get a guilty plea for less serious charge.

      • boyd says:

        Alexander was black.

    • Girlp says:

      Great article….I hope George is fond guilty the state is going to have to bring it home since they were in reality not allowed a rebuttal.

  69. sadlyyes says:

    all you animal lovers out there…some GOOD news,all the dogs have been settled out in San Bernadino Calif….will post the story as soon as it is written up!!! yea,lets not despair yet…

  70. Cynthia, TX says:

    If I had been a juror I would have wanted to hear GZ testify. I think only because it was a child that was killed. I would have wanted to know exactly as close to possible what was going on in his mind

    • parrot says:

      I would like to know as well although we caught a glimpse of it on his NEN call.

      But he will never tell the truth.

      It’s unspeakable.

    • mrsdoubtfire says:

      I would ask him how his flashlight and Trayvon ended up 30 feet from where he said he was suckerpunched to the ground. Did he have the flashlight in his hand while he was alledgedly being beaten to a pulp. . Did he shimmy 30 feet with flashlight in hand and TM on top.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      coincidentally, cynthia, most jurors on self defense cases feel the same, even though they are instructed upon the defendant’s right to remain silent and to not draw conclusions if the defendant does not testify.

      it is for this reason, that in a self defense case it is often said that the defendant MUST testify because they are the sole witness who can say what was on their mind at the time of death. of course, doing so puts them in dangerous waters and subject to rigorous cross examination. it is a damned if you do/damned if you don’t scenario.

      most jurors feel just like you. take whatever comfort you can in that.

  71. sadlyyes says:

    imo,it is very important for the lawyers or judge to explain,REASONABLE doubt,vs no doubt what so ever…and a reasonable person can conclude,the boy would be alive except for foagies HORRIBLE choices EVERY step of the way!

    • Dennis says:

      Exactly. When you have somebody stupid on a jury like Jennifer Ford, you will get injustice. The duct tape was obviously the murder weapon, and the jury was too hopped up on crack cocaine to realize that.

      • mrsdoubtfire says:

        Seems the interpretation of reasonable doubt varies from State to State. When Belvin Perry explained it, it seemed to me needlessly convoluted. The best explanation I heard of reasonable doubt was in the Jodi Arias case. i.e. A juror need only be “firmly convinced” …… That said its no excuse for the Anthony jurors who truly seemed to lack the ability to draw a logical inference if it smacked them in the face.. i.e the defendant was a callous pathologial liar who no doubt at some point had her dead baby in the trunk of her car. And babies who die accidentally dont end up tossed in swamps with duct tape around their lower face….

        • Dennis says:

          You couldn’t have said it any better. This analyst said that the Anthony jurors confused “reasonable doubt” with “reason to doubt”. Not quite sure how they believed the child died in an accident when all evidence pointed to homicide. Jennifer Ford started babbling about the pool accident and the dad being a molester. Jennifer said, “I believe he was there”. There was absolutely no evidence that he was present when the child died. How on earth do these idiots reach fantasy conclusions? I wouldn’t mind giving Jennifer Ford 2 years in prison for stupidity. She is trying to be a nurse but clearly she has no respect for human life, especially a child that was murdered and thrown into a swamp like trash.

          • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

            That is so sad. Smh!

            Jesus, Jesus, Jesus…Lord save our children and keep them safe from all hurt, harm, and danger.

    • Nef05 says:

      IIRC – The judge includes that in the jury instructions.

  72. My Forehead Tho says:

    Wow, is it just me or right before the shot does another voice yell “help me”? Listening to this really shook me up and not because it’s my first time hearing this, but because it’s my first time hearing what sounds to be two distinct voices. The second and the last voice almost taunting the first one right before the gunshot. This literally brought tears to my eyes. If i’m correct, the last “help me” wasn’t from Trayvon.

    • Dennis says:

      I doubt it. If that forensic audio analyst was correct, Trayvon yelled “I’m begging you”. If that is true, Fogen had his gun pointed at him and Trayvon was literally begging for his life before the psychopath shot him. It’s no wonder why the defense wanted that testimony excluded. Sounds to me like 1st degree murder.

      • disappointed says:

        I have always heard the I’m begging you! Sick bastard made Trayvon beg and he still killed him.

        I have heard the help me. I think it is to cover and confuse the hell out of the neighbors. It worked.

        • My Forehead Tho says:


          The last “help me” is a lot lower than the all the other screams.

          • Dennis says:

            Fogen did know neighbors were alerted to the altercation so if he did say something to that extent, I agree it would have been to gain support of the neighbors.

        • Malisha says:

          I don’t believe the neighbors were confused. They knew Fogen hunted down and killed Trayvon Martin. Those of them connected with the HOA also knew WHY he did that. Those like John Good who were in favor of the project may even have known WHEN he was going to do it.

        • Nef05 says:

          Me too. First thing he said!

    • CarolMaeWY says:

      Did the man in the background of call testify?

    • Judy75201 says:

      I think the word “enhanced” would have to be defined.

    • breelee says:

      OMG, why wasn’t Jeremy called to the stand. I read others say what they heard him say, but just now is the 1st time I did. I’d swear on my life he says: “he warned me he’d shoot him or them”. I cant believe this wasn’t at least mentioned for the jury to listen for. That child killer deserved murder 1.

      • disappointed says:

        If you listen really good it sounds like Fogen says something about fucking kill…. It has been a while since I listened closely because this call makes me have nightmares. I would say listen close and start from the very beginning. With the I am begging you. It is there you just have to listen in between talking and the death screams.

    • vickie s. votaw says:

      CAC was mocking Trayvon’s pleas. The old man Reich exposed most of the interaction between them but was not allowed to testify.

  73. colin black says:

    This this is for all of you minein freindz

    r I p trey justices iz on itz way.

    • disappointed says:

      Colin- Our children are suppose to out live us. When they don’t it puts a pain in your soul you will never grasp unless you have lost one. I wish I could explain it better than that, but without going into a long winded comment I will say be grateful for everyday you have and do not let a day go by that you do not say I love you. Nothing is guaranteed.
      Trayvon is lucky to have such a wonderful group pulling and fighting for him. I am lucky to have met you all and I hope we keep fighting these senseless deaths to “our” children.

      • Dennis says:

        Exactly. I want Fogen’s family to feel and experience the pain Trayvon’s parents feel. Just strap that wanna-be-cop loser into the electric chair, pray to Satan that he will take good care of him, then flip the switch & watch the fireworks. If the parents refuse to watch, waterboard them until they do.

        • Malisha says:

          Fogen and his family only feel pain for themselves, NEVER for others. It’s the hallmark of such sociopathic trash.

  74. trina cosbie says:

    Either way….I hope the DOJ goes after the SPD when this is all said & done!!! Serino got Baez for a reason & I think we will soon find out later….Who made the decision not to impound GZ car? Who made the decision to let GZ wash his hands? Who made the decision to let GZ clean himself up before pictures were taken? Who made the decision to not drug test the shooter, but the murdered?……I pray the DOJ has investigated this to the hilt!!!

    • Dennis says:

      Only in a racist police department do they drug test the victim but not the shooter. I don’t care if the officers had reason to believe he was telling the truth. How are we supposed to know he was not on medication, alcohol, or illegal drugs? You have to investigate an incident like this thoroughly, regardless of race or sex of the victim/defendant.

      • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

        Correct.. I also can not figure out why didn’t the procescutor play the 911 tape when he said “fuc-ing coons.” Let the jury decide if GZ is this created over night saint.

        Also, why didn’t MOM allow his father to tell what his position is in the legal system “A JUDGE.” a racist one at that…. They didn’t ask him nothing…

        It would have appeared all these law enforcement cover-up tactics exposed. Remember this, “It’s George!” what a bunch of liars and con people… Lied in court…. Osterman wife a joke…trailer park trash…

        • Dennis says:

          Whatever Fogen said, the tapes show he had a motive to detain Trayvon. Not one shred of evidence had been entered to prove Trayvon was “up to no good” as Fogen claimed. He hunted down a black kid in a hoody without any evidence of wrongdoing.

      • disappointed says:

        Dennis I have never heard of a shooting that is self defense not involve tox on both parties. Dead or alive. This department was run ass backwards under Lee. He is entitled to his opinion but honestly he is another that I believe should shut the fuck up. Sorry about the language but the smearing the victim needs to stop. Self defense works both ways. You can not take Fogen’s story about Trayvon hitting him here and there without starting at the beginning. Fogen in a 4000 pound vehicle following a teen.

        • Dennis says:

          I would bet Fogen was on something, whether it was medication or alcohol. His phone call to the police does not sound reasonable and he seems disoriented.

    • Malisha says:

      DOJ is on the wrong side in this whole thing. They are protecting the criminals; they can’t, however, protect Fogen.

  75. Dennis says:

    So the two strongest witnesses for the defense have violated court orders. Does not sound good for them.

    We have all seen this before in every murder trial. The families of the guilty refuse to accept reality that their child is a murdering scumbag. They will lie and taint the victim’s name in order to make sure their child is not taken away for life. Do people like this really even deserve to breathe?

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:


    • Malisha says:

      Nah, they get away with that stuff all the time; that’s why they do it more and more. People who will violate those kinds of rules and orders are the people who “get over” on others 99 times out of 100. It’s why they accumulate power and money, too.

  76. sadlyyes says:

    please,please help!!! tell your friends…use facebook etc.

    this is so sad,help the beautiful Sumatran Tigers

    i LOVE all you good,dear people

  77. bettykath says:

    I think all the evidence that’s needed is in. What’s necessary it for the closing to connect the dots for the jury. Provide them with a road map. All the inconsistencies in fogen’s stories are in evidence. All the materials needed to show the inconsistencies are in evidence. The prosecution didn’t bring that manikin in just for the retired cop.

    I hoping for a dynamic kickass closing.

    • tashatexas77048 says:

      We all hope for this…but we also hoped they could shred witnesses like John Good, Di Maio and Root and we also hoped they would bring in someone from FDLE to tie things together. We have been disappointed many times during this trial and I will keep my hopes LOW until they show me better.

      I believe they brought the dummy out today. I don’t know why they couldn’t get Root, who was pretending to be George Zimmerman, to get down and demonstrate how you could grab the head of a bald dummy and repeatedly bash it. Whatever he position on the dummy’s head he chose he should have asked if the person would feel/remember the grip the person had on their bald head. It is really a remarkable feat and a person should absolutely remember how it was accomplished considering it happened 25 times. It is amazing that Zimmerman claims to have experienced this yet “could not remember” how Trayvon managed to bash his head on concrete without digging into his skin. Obviously he could not remember because it never happened. 100 out of 100 people would remember simply because the feat itself would be extraordinary.

      • Thrace says:

        prosecution would have no idea how Root would have come across in a demo with the dummy. that could backfire on them big time. they try to never ask a question they don’t know the answer to and i’m sure that’s double for a demonstration. remember OJ and the glove.

      • willisnewton says:

        The jury isn’t blind. They can see just like you that the 25 head bashes are a lie. They don;t need Root to demonstrate the impossibility.

        I think its a mistake to expect the prosecution to behave as the defense has with histrionics and constant drama. The state presented a calm case IMO in part to counter the behavior of the defense. A juror who is conflicted can simply ask themselves who acted reasonable here – GZ and his defense team, or the unarmed teen and the state? And then ask themselves who to believe?

        Do you suppose the dignified family of the Martins would want a ranting lawyer like Don West to present their case? Do you suppose if Trayvon were somehow able to testify from the grave he would come off like the defense witnesses did, to a man, as biased and willing to lie about anything to get the verdict they wanted?

        Did Rachel Jentel have every right to go ballistic and act out in court? Yes, she did have that right after a 5 hour cross examination. But how did she behave? Like a person with truth and dignity on her side.

        (I did see that the dummy was black. That was a nice touch, and it helped to suggest that it’s uncertain who was on top. )

        • ZCBest says:


        • Dennis says:

          I agree.

          “Stick to what you can prove”

          Don’t want the prosecution to be gasping at theories like the Casey Anthony defense.

        • diary73 says:


          I have just read your posts in a new light. You offer a legal perspective of hope that I’d not recognized before. I wish there was a way to filter comments by posters. I now want to read everything you have offered in the past few days. Wow. Thank you.


          • fauxmccoy says:

            diary — you can filter comments out on wordpress. there are a few steps involved

            1. use firefox browser
            2. download the add-on called ‘greasemonkey’ which will enable you to execute specific user scripts on many web sites
            3. go to the greasemonkey site ( and search for a ‘wordpress comment blocker’
            4. enjoy

            alternatively, you can use your browser’s search function to seek out posts by individuals on a page.

          • diary73 says:

            Wow! Thank you, Fauxmccoy!

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            I spend so much time scrolling up and down looking for the latest comments. I just returned to this page.

            I choose to do this rather than getting hundreds of emails giving me the latest comments.

            So, I basically end up missing about 1/3 of postings.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          amen, brother!

        • Tzar says:

          Willis I appreciate your comments and I agree with most of it.
          I personally did not expect the prosecution to act like the defense team, in fact I thought they needed to remain as professional as possible given the burden they bore and the fashion in which SPD had behaved prior to their involvement as they too are law enforcement.
          But I remain curious as to what happened to Jeremy and the GPS data and why neither side were willing to present that examination and evidence. I also hope it is pure strategy that the prosecution has yet to nail down the time line and car chase for the jury.

      • Dennis says:

        I don’t think they need to show that. Fogen’s blood streaks are untouched. This proves Trayvon was not holding his head. The lack of DNA or blood of Fogen on Trayvon’s hands, fingernails, and sleeves proves that Fogen is lying through his teeth.

        How is the jury going to believe Fogen’s story that Trayvon held his head with both hands, slammed it repeatedly into the concrete, covered both his nose and mouth (his nose would have already been bleeding when he did that), without any blood or DNA getting onto Trayvon’s hands? There is no way they can. If they do, they are as dumb as a rock.

      • Malisha says:

        Besides which, if Trayvon had knocked him to the ground with a single punch, the obvious next move would NOT be to get on top of him but to violently kick him in the head, stomach and balls, boom boom BOOM which would have stopped all the conversation in a minute and put the guy OUT or OUT for good. They claimed Trayvon was a thug, not a fool.

        • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

          That sure would have been what a real thug would have did, and the majority of black males. Males don’t jump on top of someone they’ve knocked down. Only women knock someone down and climb on top of them.

    • ZCBest says:

      It will be so!

    • disappointed says:

      Me too! BDLR had some very good kick ass pre-trial days in court. Tomorrow he will bring it. He is not working on witnesses, motions or dealing with the defense’s bull shit tomorrow. Tomorrow is HIS day to speak up loud and clear for Trayvon. BDLR will show the jury what fogen did and why he should be found guilty. jmo

    • MrSykes says:

      Same here. I really wished more witnesses could have been called for the State, though. Wanted to hear from Jenna Lauer’s husband. He definitely interacted with Fogen during his wife’s 911 call.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        he probably did, mrsykes. do you honestly believe he would admit to such in court? or would he ‘lie’ like a potted palm? if the state does not have proof BARD, they will not bring it up. court is not the time for fishing expeditions. it is the time to prove what you can and punch holes into your opponent’s arguments.

  78. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    I really respect Norton Bonaparte’s courage to do what he did amidst the conditions that existed in Sanford and the SPD.

    He is a hero!

    • colin black says:

      Napolean Bonaparte

      I never realised the men from U . N . C. L. E.

      Were involved in this case.

      foggagges uncle was LE

      An quite connected in Virgina?

      Why was it that a person+foggagge

      So desprte to become a cop

      Anwe know nepotisim is a given right

      Is for sure in Florida every frikinle witnesses partner was also on or in the force.

      So riddle me this an UNCLE In Virginia none of whos Children he molestered ?

      Or did he ? anyway why didn’t fogggagge use his Uncle to pull some strings an get him hired in Virginia.

      Or what Im realy asking is WHY?

      Did the entire zimmskimclan flee Virgina like CARPET5 BAGGERS

      Head down South an Never Darken Virgina again

      Not even for a dream JOB

      We all inow his family black balled him exiled him to the retreats

      Pay to stay awy money

      From st marys an we know he was estranged from his big bro whoejunio.

      What better place to exile him back to Virgina get his assss on the force an away from Florida an them.

      But no some skellaton is buried in Virgina that the Family en masse is aware off an scared off. m o o.

  79. STORMWATCH says:

    It all flows from the top. Bill Lee is a disgrace and so are a few folks who were working under him. Norm Wolfinger and Jim Carter are in it up to their necks. If this had happened south of Lake Okeechobee, Zimmerman would have been arraigned in court 2 days later and charged with murder.

    • willisnewton says:

      Absent a credible outside investigation, those allegations will remain unproven. But I don’t doubt your opinion. I just wish that I knew justice was coming for the elected and appointed officials who mis-handled this case from the start.

  80. Been following closely, watching all day, reading tweets from in the crtroom & checking in here…I must be from another planet because I’m sensing this jury is ready, itching to punish GZ.

  81. Hola my friends!

    The Justice Train for Martin departed the station to the final destination long ago,it doesn’t matter how many plays the dumb
    defense played ,Justice is Coming!

    The sho sho defense train was left out empty and annihilated
    keep hope alive ,Justice for Martin is Coming!

    Remember? “It That Get That Far”? Look how far We are now,
    almost there,Justice for Martin is Coming!

    • Nice to hear from you Joe! It’s kieshythom!

    • fauxmccoy says:

      hello jospeh norton, old friend. always good to see you and your positive thoughts.

      peace out,

      • Hello Faux it’s Kieshythom! Nice to see you hear as well:-)

        • fauxmccoy says:

          i know it’s kieshythom 🙂 hello friend, good to see you too!

          • Good to see you too. I can’t say that I am happy with the case that the prosecution tried to prove. But, hopefully they will kill it in their closing arguments.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            all anyone can do is hope, pray (if you are a believer), know that we have all done our best to effect change, trust that the right thing will happen and be prepared for disappointment.

            that said, it ain’t easy, is it? never in my life have i seen such support for a killer, usually behind the safety of a computer screen. i guess it’s the modern equivalent of the white sheet society, but it’s sad stuff all around.

  82. colin black says:

    colin black says:

    July 10, 2013 at 8:16 pm

    July 10, 2013 at 7:22 pm

    Some lawyers argued. (are you kidding? you missed it.) Watch the closing and read some articles when it is over. We can’t be expected to summarize. Too much happened. Sorry to be flip.


    towerflower says:

    July 10, 2013 at 7:27 pm

    Yeah, I missed it. I go on a camping trip at this time every year. Missed the Anthony case too when it was on. Did the GPS logs ever come out in the trial? That was my big question.


    Beverly says:

    July 10, 2013 at 7:45 pm

    I do not think so; could have missed it. But I think they did not.


    colin black says:

    July 10, 2013 at 8:12 pm

    14 days

    Day one prosecution GOOD. defence bad

    Day Two ditto

    Day three draw.

    Day 4 good prosection
    day 5 ditto
    day six ditto
    day 8 order restored win for ths State

    day 9 ditto day ten draw
    Day eleven a non rubber
    day twelve win for State
    day 13 ditto

    An today was weird way to weird to call Id say to day was cancelled.

    Ive heard of jury nullification today we got just entire day wasted nullification

    An tomorrow we have closeing arguments.

    DVD with directors commentary comeing to a store near you.



  83. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    It appears DOJ is sending down law enforcement to control possible riots. Just sad…

    • colin black says:

      Its called Profileing
      Blahck people go mad riot burn an loot if they wittnees white people getting justice within the American legal System

      An if an Afro American Peruvian Caucasian mediterian Hispanic dude gets not guilty

      Man they gonna burn the eefin entire planet

      Send in the nukes man
      They got W M D s you just know it man

      Hit em hard hit em fast an STAND OUR GROUND

      Against thease real susspious Blahks up to no good getting read to riot at the Back entrance of democracy its called revolt an anarchy

      Cant you see the Blahks have only ifammy an infameatry

      Thoughts of the whites they see .

      They just want to target me an thee an when we see

      There sheer AUDACITY then must we remind them of History put them back in there place
      Then they will see

      This world only belongs to the likes of me.

    • willisnewton says:

      That’s likely the DoJ’s Community Relations Board folks, and they have been there before. Expect some speeches by local ministers and some sermons this sunday as the jury probably deliberates over the weekend. It may be a tense weekend but I predict by Monday or Tuesday there will be a verdict that puts GZ behind bars for many many years and no appeal. and a civil suit to follow.

      There aren’t going to be any riots if justice is served IMO, and if GZ is somehow fully acquitted and walks away a free man, then i’m not certain what should happen, for then it will be clear that the process failed.

      However it is important to respect the wishes of the Martin family, who have always called for calm and for the process to play out peacefully. If anyone has a say in how people should react it’s them. They are the ones who count.

    • Malisha says:

      Would have been better if DOJ had done something about the casual and yet very predictable murder of a child.

  84. My Forehead Tho says:

    I wonder what the significance of Fogen’s flashlight was. Both BDRL and I think Guy asked a few expert witnesses if it could be used as a weapon.

    • Thrace says:

      Because he kept it in his hand till the death spot…or at least that’s where it was found. So he held on to it thru out the whole tussle, what was he doing with it? Hitting Trayvon? I still wonder if Trayvon thought it was gun at first.

      • HeresLookingatYOU says:

        why not use the flashlight INSTEAD of the gun?

        • Thrace says:

          I just threw out the point I think the state is trying make about the flashlight. IMO, it was a quick moving fight that GZ instigated and when he bit off more than he could chew he shot Trayvon.

          • Tzar says:

            “Thrace says:
            July 10, 2013 at 8:35 pm

            I just threw out the point I think the state is trying make about the flashlight. IMO, it was a quick moving fight that GZ instigated and when he bit off more than he could chew he shot Trayvon.”

            Where is the evidence that Trayvon got the better of Zimmerman. I really wish it were so, however on the 911 call, all I heard was a kid who was completely dominated and crying for help.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        I thought he threw it down in order to grab Trayvon with his stronger hand, then drew the gun and shot him.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          Or it could be used in that gun and flashlight technique used by cops that someone posted a vid of a few weeks back.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I was wondering if they were going to go further with that, MyForeheadTho.

      I do think that gz shined it right into Trayvon’s face when he approached Trayvon which would have been scary for Trayvon.

      I also think that he lied to Singleton that first night when he said that he could not see Trayvon’s face because of the hoodie!

    • kllypyn says:

      There was speculation a few months ago that he may have hit Trayvon with it,and those tiny abrasions on his fingers may have been defensive wounds,.

    • willisnewton says:

      not much IMO. The real question was, since he said it was in his hand, why didn’t he drop it when he was supposedly sucker punched all the way up at the T? Consider that he seemed to have a working KEYCHAIN flashlight as well, which no one can place ever, esp GZ himself. If TM approached him as GZ claims (and RJ/DD/W8 seems to rebut strongly) and GZ had a flashlight in one hand and reached for a cell phone with the other, do you really buy that he was carrying it during that ridiculous “stumble” down south some 40 feet, only to drop it for no particular reason later?

      Hopefully BDLR will speak to this in his closing. It’s a big way to question GZ’s false narrative.

      It’s always seemed a great deal more likely that GZ is the one who closed that gap, from any direction to TM and that yes, the initial physical action brought them to the ground in short time.

      The “returning to(wards) my vehicle is a completely self-serving statement to which he’s attached an impossible timeline and distance both. He’s lying and a jury should be able to see that given the right guidance in closing argument or rebuttal to the defense closing.

    • Dave says:

      I tend to think that he approached trayvon with the flashlight in his left hand beside his own head and suddenly shone it in Trayvon’s face. Trayvon , blinded by the intense light, swung his right hand in the general direction of the light taking the killer by surprise and driving the heavy flashlight into the wannabe cop’s face. I think this is what really set zimmerman off.

    • Xena says:

      Because GZ carried it with him while going to Retreat View Circle, yet it had no fingerprints, blood nor DNA on it when retrieved from the crime scene. It was apparently wiped clean. The question is why?

  85. LLMPapa says:

    How can the prosecution have an officer of the law, Doris Singleton, on the witness stand TWO times and not even ask her about her incorrect and blatantly FALSE representation of the NEN call’s sequence of events?

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      Some people called me interjecting race. This case was all about race. Not one of those prosecutors looked up once the judge gave orders. They knew they were told not to fight for justice by some heavy hitter. They allow a jury selection of GZ peers not Trayvon Martins. Can someone explain to me how in God’s name was the prosecution unable to locate one black person to sit on that jury in Sanford? Are jury people only Caucasian in this town! It was staged.

      Blacks have no rights and for them not to prepare their witnesses it was staged from the beginning. Totally ridiculous day!!! Corey was only there to flavor the court room as if she was really concern. It is about her career status… These people need to burn in hell for their evil deeds…. Let God deal with them he is the only one can reward crooks and dirty deeds properly.

      How in God’s name were they even allowed to make that overweight child murderer and molester look like a saint. How do you exclude medical records he was running on psychotic drugs. And this doesn’t get into the jury pool.. It doesn’t matter when they selected all whites and no blacks from a town that large something is wrong…..

      GZ should have done this crap in China… Remember the bad dog food. They got rid of those two CEO quickly over a dog… The dogs and cats killed over bad food got more respect than Trayvon Martin…

      They are really sending a statement to one nationality. Their is no justice.. And justice is not blind. Every person who sit on a jury votes according to their life experiences. And coming out of Sanford you all should by now know what that verdict is… innocent when you kill a black child.

      • Endless Summer says:

        Sanford’s population is over 30% black. Statistically the jury should have had at least one black person in the make up. Two would be closer to demographically correct.

      • cielo62 says:

        EIEIO~ Are you so truly totally clueless to the right to a trial by jury of the DEFENDANT’S PEERS?? The jury is NOT to represent the VICTIM but the ACCUSED!! You have posted variations of this same ignorant rant several times, and each time SOMEONE besides me has corrected you. Are you willfully ignorant or truly here to cause trouble?


        • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

          My opinion… Freedom of speech that is the America way….

        • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

          CIELO62 – By the way don’t read it… It is my opinion… don’t respond to me. Interesting many understand exactly what I am talking about and eyes are being opened. Don’t call names if you have never been in this situation… You are ignorant and because I speak my feelings I causing trouble. Go to sleep…. CIELO62

    • willisnewton says:

      It seems the state didn’t want to highlight the MANY mistakes made by the SPD for the reason that this would allow the defense to introduce reasonable doubt into the case.

      The state presented an exhibit of their own timeline of the NEN call and 911 call times and the call times of the calls between TM and RJ/W8/DD.

      Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater yet, LLMPapa.

      Her timeline was NOT entered into evidence and this trial was not about highlighting the police missteps.

      I’m a lot more upset that she was not taken specifically through her line of questioning in the “mild challenge interview” where she kept asking GZ “are you still at the clubhouse now?” until he clammed up, clearly caught in a lie. But if this comes back in closing, we will see that this was a deliberate tactic by BDLR to allow the defense to think this was a case about cuts and bruises and who YELLED and not who LIED.

      Time will tell. I’ll be upset if this doesn’t come up in closing, but again I think it was a conscious choice to misdirect the clueless defense.

      For all we know the efforts you and I and other bloggers went to to point out the investigative findings gleaned from the evidence did nothing but frustrate the prosecution team when they were waiting all this time to spring a trap. Have you considered that?

      IMO I didn’t mind speaking the truth because there is no defense against the truth of a car-to-pedestrian chase, or the fact that GZ never ONCE offered the information that TM ran away from him when giving statements to the SPD. But the state may have felt different, since they think the defense might have prepared a strategy to meet that argument.

      We are all grateful however for your efforts. We bloggers should stick together, and always speak the truth.

      It’s just that this case is going to be decided in a courtroom and not on the internet. So we also have to respect that process, which is the process the family of the slain teen chose and pressed for all along.

      be well and keep doing what you do best.

      • bellesouth says:

        I concur with Willis. Too many shiny objects divert attention from the facts at hand. The facts prove their case.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        willis, i have been thinking.

        there is a damn good reason why the state would not bring up or would gloss over any error on behalf of SPD or FDLE and that is simple.

        why argue your opponent’s case for them?

        we all know there were tasks performed by SPD and FDLE which were glaring errors. the prosecution had to argue the case they had, not any fantasy case. would you pick dr. bao to be your ME if it was your job to present in court? hell no. are crime scene technician smith and her husband officer smith somewhat questionable? oh yeah.

        but what would the state get in pointing out errors of SPD and FDLE other than to degrade their own evidence and underscore reasonable doubt?

        their job here is to secure a conviction of this defendant. nothing more, nothing less. i wish that more eyes could see this simple truth.

        • willisnewton says:

          Seems obvious to me. You put it well – they have to try the case on the facts they had established for them, not a fantasy.

          On the other hand the defense can go for the “chewbacca defense” – make up as many nonsensical statements as possible and then claim the water is too muddy to see thru, so you must acquit.

    • Malisha says:

      First time in my life I have seen the police on the side of the defense rather than the prosecution. Most corrupt thing I have ever seen in a criminal court except for the REAL cases where the prosecutor railroads an innocent man/woman. THAT I have seen and this was not an example.

    • Rachael says:

      LLMPapa, I think you know the answer to that. Anyway, I can’t say anything about your videos that hasn’t already been said. All I can say is thank you, and I will always love you for all that you have done.

  86. disappointed says:

    I have no doubt that fogen is guilty of killing Trayvon Benjamin Martin. I have been praying for Justice for the last year. I know everyone here is hoping for Murder 2, I am too. BUT a lessor charge will get him a healthy amount of time but more than that he will lose his gun. To never have to worry about another child walking home or playing in the streets is comforting. We need to pray for Justice and think positive. The Fulton/Martin need us to be strong for them. Whatever the outcome we are not walking away from Trayvon.

  87. Ty Flair says:

    I’m telling you the State is going to lay out all the evidence in closing just watch they are going take the juror step by step why fogen is lying. You will be amaze when they put fogen statement all together and explain it to the jurors. When they are finish the jurors will know Trayvon did not have to die that night.

    • Jun says:

      in all honesty, the boy did not even have to die

      i dont believe for one second that that is Fogen screaming on the fucking 911 scream tape

      i dont know Trayvon’s voice but I know a kid’s voice when I hear it and that’s a kid’s voice screaming and yelping for helping

      i honestly do not even know why this nonsense was entertained from the jump

      jeez, the defendant is trying to claim he never went after the kid when he is found away from the clubhouse where he instigated the whole incident, 500 feet away, in the same location as where the victim is, seen on top of the victim as the victim yelped and screamed, and then shooting the kid?

      In the words of Rachel, this is the most retarded claim of self defense ever

      • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

        GZ is even trying to steal Trayvon’s death cry!! That is a cry of death… So upsetting…

        • Xena says:

          And, had the State gone to Laurer’s statement that she heard “what are you doing …” O’Mara and West would have stolen that from Trayvon and appropriated it to GZ. The State missed much evidence, but by doing so they deprived the defense from using it too.

          • Tzar says:

            this is the only thing that makes me think that the state is hodling back for startegic reasons
            but if they fail to deliver in closing
            I will be very disappointed
            because even with the SOD screwups they had this one in the bag

  88. Tzar says:

    can someone clarify what was said in court
    which side gives closing arguments first?

    • Thrace says:

      tomorrow state first for 2 (or 1.5) hours. court ends for the day. defense friday morning for 3 hours. then state comes back for an hour (or 1.5). case goes to jury for deliberations.

  89. Jun says:

    I dont get why there was no rebuttal

    I also do not get why the chase was not covered more…. it all started at the clubhouse, instigated by Fogen

    The crime scene location is 500 feet away from the clubhouse and toward Trayvon’s home

    Why was the ballistics and forensics covered more?

    I dont buy that gravity shirt nonsense and besides, Surdyka stated that she saw Fogen on top of trayvon, when he shot the boy, as the boy screamed

    • Malisha says:

      Every witness except John Good (connected to HOA) supported Jayne S’s version. The police tried not to let her version be heard; they discouraged her from giving her information about the killing. This is one of the biggest pieces of corruption that marked Lee’s regime. Our LE departments are petty warlords.

  90. Sophia33 says:

    Repost from previous thread


    Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    The courage to change the things that I can
    And the wisdom to know the difference.

  91. Thrace says:

    Chief Lee on CNN – Political pressure is why he lost his job. They wanted to find out what happened and seek justice. the law and constitution require probable cause and the evidence they had didn’t lead to that. Civil right leaders-SPD conducted an unbias investigation and race played no part. There was pressure applied to make an arrest by the city manager. He felt they (city manager?) just wanted an arrest and didn’t care if it was dropped later on. Investigation taken away from them. He didn’t get a fair shake, he upheld his oath.

    • Sophia33 says:

      Taaffe was on JVM talking about buying fat ass Zimmerman a pizza after his acquittal. The panel got on him for treating this like a joke. He’s an asshole and I don’t mean that in an endearing way.

    • Jun says:

      what do you expect?

      he did a bad job as a police chief and he is still bitter about being fired

      considering the job he did on Trayvon, you think he would suddenly change?

    • abbyj1 says:

      Poor Bill Lee. Didn’t “get a fair shake”. One more Pity Party to throw for all those who cleaned up the manure behind Fogen. Get this quote from him during his CNN interview today:

      ” I’m a man of faith and, uh, but I – it stings.”

      I’ll tell ya what STINGS, Lee. A hollow-point bullet through the heart.

    • willisnewton says:

      IMO he is right in some regards AND he still deserved to be fired. He’s a relic from the past and his department mishandled the case in a spectacular fashion. If W8/DD/Rachel Jantel had been found within 24 hours the investigators would have had a very different picture of how the events occurred.

      If the vehicle had been found and searched before someone moved it away, important evidence may have been found.

      The area could have been canvassed better. We still don’t know for certain if all the witnesses came forward.

      Things were leaked. Things were lost. The buck stops with him.

      The earphones are a vital piece of evidence that apparently were moved without really being documented as to what state they were in after the shot.

      He was hired by the city manager and laid off by a vote of no confidence by a majority of the council. He was fired by the man who hired him. If he wants to sue, that’s his option.

      If he wants to complain, that’s his right. If we want to not care, that’s OUR right.

      • Jun says:

        Yeah he’s a pretty bad police chief

        bottom line, Fogen killed a kid!

        That at the very least is reasonable suspicion of murder!!!!

        people stage self defense claims all the time!!!

        It’s good he was fired because the town of Sanford would turn into a crime spree with that idiot as the chief

      • Girlp says:

        In a way BLDR pointed that out when Serino was on the stand. BLDR pointed out that Serino did not have Rachel nor any of the forensics avialable to him at the time. However I feel Lee is not taking responsibility at all, I was being forced to bring charges, there was no evidence against Fogen, the case was taken from me so I could not investigate further…well which one is it self defense go home and sleep well, move to Alaska if you want or we are investigating and have not cleared Fogen yet. He declared this was a case of self defense with no true investigation and no forensics. I don’t feel sorry for him at all.

    • Malisha says:

      Oh boo hoo poor widdow Billy Lee and his best friend Mark Osterman. Boo hoo hoo. Political pressure, the pBa-lack mob.

      If there is ever a riot in Sanforrd, he’s the cause of it. Right damn there.

  92. fauxmccoy says:


    • willisnewton says:

      indeed. the present. We can’t change the past and we don’t know the future. Faux I imagine you are on pins and needles like most of us are. Keep the faith, buddy.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        thanks willis. yes, present was the best i could come up with at this very moment and it reflected just that. you are very perceptive, my friend.

        i maintain hope because failing to do so is the equivalent of death to me. i will deal with disappointment and anger if i must, but see no reason to rush out and greet them with open arms.

      • Judy75201 says:

        And to think I was going to be crass enough to say, “where’s mine?”.

  93. Two sides to a story says:

    I hated to do it . . . there are so many people here dismayed by the state’s presentation as well as by the events of the day, and who think Fogen will walk . . . I had put on my goggles and waders and trudge forth into Fogenville once again.

    Their chonies are all in a bunch about the lesser charges that JN allowed and many, many feel that Fogen will go to jail no matter what. Most are hoping for a strong appeal. A minority hold their faith that Fogen will walk.

    I rest my case.There’s still a ways to go in this case with the closing arguments and I don’t think this jury of women will take Trayvon’s death lightly.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      So everyone is questioning the court happenings on both sides?

    • abbyj1 says:

      Keepin’ the faith, Twosides. Keepin’ the faith. It feels, sometimes, as if Florida is the Wild West when it comes to the law–anything goes. Still, I’m keepin’ the faith. It ain’t over till it’s over.

    • Nef05 says:

      Nice job, 2sides. They’re in a bunch because they know the lesser charge brings the same sentence. They wanted him free, period. They said it enough and ignored the facts. They couldn’t care less about a half Hispanic fool. THEY (Brietbart wannabes) wanted to codify open hunting season on black males. (JMHO)

    • concernedczen says:

      I don’t think JN allowed the lesser charges in yet…she has not made her decision yet.

      I wouldn’t be surprised if she does not allow lesser charges based on her track record of having all of the IMPORTANT decisions go Zimmerman’s way.

  94. Girlp says:

    I hope the state does one hell of a job in their closing arguments because I feel Judge Nelson tied their hands.

  95. LLMPapa says:

    I’m shell shocked at the lack of presentation of available evidence to the jury by the prosecution. One of the most glaring examples is an almost complete disregard for the impossible elements of time Zimmerman’s story contains.

    Back in March, O’Mara filed a motion for the jury to visit the crime scene. Contained in this motion is a statement that is, without a doubt, the truest claim O’Mara has made in this case:

    Zimmerman’s NEN call and subsequent statements to SPD establish NUMEROUS specific locations and specific time markers that are physically impossible and clearly false as to his accounting of Trayvon’s, and his own, path of movement. Yet this minefield of misinformation has been all but ignored by the State.

    A jury member wouldn’t have to be a time reconstruction specialist to understand Trayvon could not possible have walked the 500 feet from the Clubhouse to the “T” in the FORTY SIX SECONDS of the NEN call that lapsed between Zimmerman’s statement of “He’s coming to check me out” at the Clubhouse and “Shit, he’s running” before he ever even got out of his truck.

    A juror wouldn’t have to understand a lot about time and movement if it was pointed out to them that Zimmerman’s specific time markers and locations have him being “attacked” by Trayvon BEFORE he even got off the phone with NEN.

    How can the prosecution ignore these documented facts of time and, yet, make such a big deal of his Hannity statement of never having heard of SYG?

    Quite frankly, my head is spinning. I’m feeling like I’ve been in some sort of space/time continuum for the past year, talking to the wind…..

    • ZCBest says:

      Oh boy LLMPapa, I feel similarly. My mouth is so open a fly could definitely gain entry.

      I am keeping the faith though. Justice for Trayvon.

    • Rachael says:

      I think we all do.

    • willisnewton says:

      You and me both, pal. I’ve been ranting to high heaven about the car-to-pedestrian chase for over a year. Racheal Jantel and DON FRICKING WEST spoke to it in open court, as did others and it flew by like it was nothing.

      But BDLR has a three hour closing presentation set, we have heard and the clubhouse videos were entered into evidence, as well as the very important map the GZ drew on marking his tru position on TTL facing the mail kiosk, before he must have MOVED his car in concert with TM leaving the mail kiosk and heading to the cut thru area. It was this aggressive move of his car that caused TM to run off the roadway and into the dog walk area.

      These lies establish the PATTERN of lies GZ told – when in doubt, he left it out. What he did, he blamed the kid.

      Some here hope/think that Bernie is going to lay it all out in his closing. I don’t have an opinion anymore.

      But we’ll see soon enough, and whatever didn’t make it into this trial should re-appear in a civil suit anyway.

    • towerflower says:

      LLMPapa, I had been gone for 10 days and missed most of the trial…..I’m surprised to hear that this wasn’t brought up. Did any of his hidden emails, texts, and the such brought up? Did the state bring up the possible “Z grabbed Trayvon’s shirt and pulled him toward him” instead of a wet shirt falling forward?

      • willisnewton says:

        GZ’s phone records were brought in as evidence but nothing was testified to as to what was in them. The shirt grabbing was spoken to but presented as TM pulling back to disengage and not as GZ attemting to detain the teen. ‘

        I tend to think since the State cannot PROVE BARD that the defendant was trying to detain the teen they did not go there with presenting witnesses to speak to this since it would have been speculation. (this never stopped the defense from presenting witnesses who spoke about speculative issues at length.)

        sorry i cannot summarize better, and that I was flippant earlier. You had to be there.

        • towerflower says:

          No offense taken willis, I know I missed out on quite a bit. Thank you for filling in some of the blanks.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        The state mentioned the shirt being held just briefly and I think that was today, if I’m not mistaken. Or perhaps it was yesterday. The text and picture brouhaha started yesterday and was denied today. They state mentioned the two minutes that Fogen could have been wandering and up to no good very briefly, either yesterday or Monday, I believe.

        So there hasn’t been much made of various issues we felt were important to the case. The case has hinged around the screaming, and the fact that Fogen profiled Trayvon as a criminal, left his truck, followed Trayvon, didn’t make any normal contact, and then killed him during a confrontation in which no one knows who started it or exactly how it transpired except for brief glimpses – except for Rachel’s testimony in which she felt that Fogen pushed Trayvon and started the confrontation. Which might just be enough to nail his a55. I’m probably more hopeful than many here.

        I saw your return message in the previous thread. Sounds like you had a great vacation – wish I could escape internet and phones for 10 days. There’s lots of great footage on YouTube and many of the news outlets have preserved some of the best and most interesting moments of the trial testimony in shorter clips.

        • towerflower says:

          Two sides, It’s good to be back but I really wanted to see this trial. But the white water rafting was good and the horse back riding scary at times with the hills and all the mud…..I am amazed that my horse stayed upright. I was with a scout troop in NC and then we made a side trip to WV for the rafting and horse back riding. I highly recommend Adventures on the Gorge in Lansing, WV for a little bit of everything.

          Looks like I need to make up for a lot of lost time. Is there any day which is really good that I need to look at?

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I have been left wondering.

    • Eric says:

      How can the prosecution ignore these documented facts? The answer is simple. The state,from the very start wanted to throw this case. Blacks have no rights that need respect.

      • willisnewton says:

        That may be the conclusion that many will reach. The true picture is a lot more complex than that. The state can only present what it can certify to as the truth they have proven beyond a reasonable doubt. I’m not sure exactly what points you felt they did not present, and the trial is not over yet – but keep in mind that while you are 100% right that ALL people deserve their rights respected, there are rules in a court case that often bend to favor a defendant.

        I think it’s clear that the witnesses who favored the defendant’s obviously false narrative are biased. Your own outrage is likely echoed by that of the six jurors.

        Look to the family of the slain teen as an example of how to maintain your emotions. They sat through all this and more, and never spoke as you are speaking. Instead they ORGANIZED and pressed for justice never faltered, not once in the face of everything they have seen happen. They always said they have faith in the process.

        Also no matter what the verdict I imagine a lengthy civil trial after this. Keep the faith and hold on to your respect for the dignity we all deserve.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          Good post, Willis. I also think we honor Trayvon and his family by honoring their example. They may be just as discouraged as many here right now, but they’ve also won in bringing Fogen to trial, and for the fact that there are many lesser charges now waiting for Fogen as well. That’s a big deal!

        • abbyj1 says:

          Such wisdom, Willis, when the spirits are flagging. Thanks for the good advice about keeping the faith. I know I will do just that.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          thank you willis, for stating the obvious. someone had to. i echo your sentiments.

        • Xena says:

          @willis. ((applause)) Personally, I refuse to give power to evil. Let it turn back upon itself. As I began, I remain — GZ shall be found guilty of 2nd degree murder.

        • elle says:

          Well said, Willis! Bravo. I will keep the faith for Trayvon and his family.

        • My Forehead Tho says:

          Very well said

        • Soulsistawoo says:

          Yes, the Martin / Fulton family have conducted themselves in an extremely controlled and dignified manner. IMO, the idea of this being something to admire is the wisest advice, however, this family would not be wrong if they chose to speak out and defend themselves and their deceased child… THIS seems to be the position most have taken concerning Trayvon’s right to defend himself against Fogen’s assault on him…
          The idea that AA’s who defend themselves against verbal and physical assaults are instantly guilty or violent and angry is BS!

          • towerflower says:

            The Martin/Fulton family have dealt with their public pain and search for justice with class and dignity. I admire them both.

      • Malisha says:

        Eric, unfortunately, your last sentence (7:47 pm comment) was pretty close to verbatim what then Chief Justice Roger Taney said in the Dred Scott decision. We are not moving forward here …

      • Soulsistawoo says:

        Trayvon runs away… ( Trayvon’s attempt to avoid a confrontation w/Fogen.)

        Trayvon ask “Why are you following me?” (Attempt to defuse the situation. Followed by an interrogation by GZ)

        Trayvon says “Get off… Get off” … (GZ assaults Trayvon and detains him against his will ).

        This is the entire case for me and the Prosecution NEVER attempted to magnify these points and fed into the idea that a fight occurred. I am so effin pissed today and I will never put my faith in the US judicial system again. I now see the light, this system is based on the constitution, which is the law of the land and is not designed to work on behalf of those who are define in the constitution as 3/5 people…

    • Sophia33 says:

      I feel the same way you do. Let’s just pray. That’s all we can do.

    • abbyj1 says:

      LLMPapa, Head spinning here, also. I mean, really, WTF? No matter how this turns out, thank you for your stunning contributions. You were never just talking to the wind. You were talking to us, and you were seen and heard by so many.

      • J4TMinATL says:

        Remember Bernie has the illustrative timeline, and illustrative map with stickers of each witness. We will see it closing.

        • Xena says:

          Also, the State did not have to prove that it was impossible for Trayvon to run between the townhouses, walk back, circle GZ’s truck and run again BECAUSE, GZ never said on the NEN call that Trayvon was circling his truck. On his NEN call when GZ said “he ran,” GZ got out of his truck and followed. He admitted to that.

          • Puck says:

            Some things people are upset weren’t presented or explained in the State’s case-in-chief or rebuttal are things that just aren’t allowed in those contexts, but rather are meant for closing arguments. Bernie said he (I think we’ve figured out Mantei will be speaking for them on jury instructions, BLDR will do the first closing, and Guy will do the rebuttal and have the last word, just as he had the first) would need around three hours. Three hours of him putting it all together with all of the evidence netered — I have faith he’ll pull it off.

          • cielo62 says:

            Puck~ THANK YOU for being a reasonable person! If I read one more “the fix is in” I’m liable to crawl through the computer band STRANGLE that idiot!


          • Puck says:

            For example, what kind of expert witness could come in and put the timeline together? None. The timeline is based on evidence entered, and will be put together and I’m sure very clearly and convincingly explained by BDLR. Perhaps, thanks to media depictions of court proceedings, people expect to see the attorneys addressing the jury throughout the trial and explaining everything, when in fact this is what happens in closing. So just because things haven’t been addressed yet doesn’t mean they won’t be, ESPECIALLY given evidence that has been unremarkably entered (e.g. clubhouse videos) or questions that seemed small but are in fact important (e.g. the button).

          • Puck says:

            My feeling is no doubt largely due to my ability, after having written countless academic papers and a dissertation, to propose a thesis, present evidence to support these and argue each part of this, and then slowly work my way to a critical analysis that refers BACK to the evidence and my discussions thereof in order to (re)establish that my arguments are evidence-based and ultimately support my thesis. I can’t argue my conclusion in the middle of the paper, nor can an attorney present closing argument material during witness testimony. It is a methodical process and it takes time.

          • cielo62 says:

            Puck~ LOL! Love ya and all, but that DID come across as a little bit pompous. I guess I should be more patient with people who don’t know the procedures. And with KIDS I have plenty of patience because I DON’T expect them to know any better. But with adults, I have very little patience. Jumping all over the place like drama queens gets old and frustrating. But you can’t get the conclusion without going through the building of it.


          • Puck says:

            I know it can come off as pompous, but writing papers has been my career, and none would have passed peer review had they not been argued thoroughly and successfully.

            I’m not blaming anyone for being upset or discouraged or angry — they are justified in feeling whatever they feel if they believe the State didn’t do a good enough job. I’m just trying to shed light on my perspective through my experience. I don’t want to be attacked for this yet again.

          • cielo62 says:

            Puck~ No attack from me. I have only a Master’s but it took alot of writing, rewriting, editing, heartache and heartburn. It’s in The Philosophy of Medicine, so also, same process you delineated. Anyway, I’m just glad SOME folks understand the only way to get a serious conclusion is to put the work into building it. The constant drama is getting on my nerves.


          • Puck says:

            Some were posting “the fix is in” here before opening arguments had even started.

          • Two sides to a story says:

            I don’t have a great grasp of law, but from listening to people like Puck and Xena and the professor, I can see that the process of presenting evidence and witnesses and doing so in a particular framework makes the expression of the case come out a bit differently than expected, especially in a case like this where observation of the altercation and murder were sketchy.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @ twosides

            look toward the bottom of this page. i posted a link to actual closing arguments made in a florida murder 1 case. i think it will answer a lot of the questions that have been raised here by people who do not understand the nature of closing arguments and how testimony combined with evidence are included.

        • Malisha says:

          His timeline was missing some important entries.

        • Judy A Vallejos says:

          yeah and that thing is 7 feet long too!!!!

          Hoodies Up

          im tellin ya we got no worry

        • abbyj1 says:

          J4T, Good to be reminded that Bernie has those three hours to create a very coherent argument tomorrow. Keepin’ the faith.

        • concernedczen says:

          False hope. Every step along the way when it was clear the prosecution was not trying hard enough, not objecting, just sitting on their hands…we’ve gotten the false hope posts.

          Don’t worry, they will put on the FDLE police to counter the SPD.


          Don’t worry, they will take care of it in their rebuttal case.

          What rebuttal case?

          Don’t worry they will tie everything up in closing.


          Ex-chief Lee is already making the media rounds on his victory lap. No one is pointing out that his cops got on the stand and lied and lied and lied.

          The prosecution is giving their concession speech on Friday, already scheduled.

          This whole trial was a fucking farce. It should not be in front of a seminole county jury, prosecution or judge.

      • MollyK says:

        Absolutely. I agree with abbyj1. Your videos have been brilliant, LLMPapa. I am disappointed that the state apparently is not aware of them.

        I’ve been away for 5 days and have missed a lot. I do remember that the clubhouse videos were introduced, but I don’t think they’ve been discussed. Is it possible that BDLR and Guy will tell the whole story in closing arguments, mentioning facts that have not been brought out before?

    • Tzar says:

      Same here
      and is the prosecution going first or second? I remember the prof saying that the PRos was supposed to go last

    • HeresLookingatYOU says:

      LLMPapa I would just like to take this moment to thankyou, you worked your heart out for justice for Trayvon, what an honor to have witnessed. I know if Sabrina and Tracey ever had the opportunity they would thank you for fighting for their child that became a son to us all….. much love and props to you….I know you will recognize this… you are FIRE….

      • abbyj1 says:

        HeresLooking, You said it for me and, no doubt, for others, and I thank you. LLMPapa did work his heart out for justice for Trayvon. None of it was in vain. None of it was ever lost on us for a moment.

        LLMPapa, my deepest respects to you, greatest of thanks. You have been a beacon of light during the darkest of times.

        • type1juve says:


        • Yorazigo says:

          Adding my huge thank you also, LLMPapa. Many points you brought out I already had noticed, but lots of others I became aware of through your revealing videos.

        • Abbyj!

          Co-Sign on everything you said.

          • abbyj1 says:

            SG2 🙂
            We’re going to keep the faith. I know your spirits are down a bit, but we’re going to see it to the end and have faith that justice will win out.

          • Abbyj,

            I’m so sad and going to bed with a heavy heart. We shouldn’t have to beg for justice.

          • racerrodig says:

            Same here. Incredible work by all of you sleuths and video detectives.

            I’m going on record, having seen this 1st hand, that the state will be firing on all cylinders over the next 2 days. Are we all disappointed that the state may not have hammered some things we know about…..yep….and they know from experience what matters and what does not.

            I can say from 1st hand exp. that in case I’ve been an expert things I swore were big time never even got mentioned proving once again I shouldn’t quit my day job. Even in cases we thought were lost, and wound up winning it was almost always the small detail that won it.

            How does Fogen pull his pistol. It is far to obvious to miss and the state mentioned it……they didn’t need to hound on it….mention it and let it stew. The misalignment…..let it stew. MMA training… if these women will actually buy that Fogen trained for 5 years, 3 times a week, 2 hours at a shot, spent all that money and can’t fight……..Pollack said it takes years to master this…….BUT the victim was an MMA champ that night with 0 training ????

            I find it hard to believe they will say Fogen was screaming the death shriek that ended instantly with the shot……only the brain dead buy that. More witnesses saw Fogen on top and the ones who say he was on the bottom came across as if they have an agenda…….because the do.

            Dorks like Osterman saying everyone should have a gun on them at all times did not go over with the jury, I can guarantee that.

            Focus on the profiling…pursuit….vehicle exiting …..armed…..Trayvon on the phone…..gets caught…..
            some struggle…….no DNA !! ….very minor injuries to Fogen that they made seem like he survived a Royal Rumble 10 on 1 Cage Match. Straight in shot and an impossible pistol pull. Clean gun, Don’t call 911….lets sit on the victim instead…..hey, am I bleeding……blood flow direction, pictures with no documentation don’t match police station pictures that do.

            My uncle unbelievable bs story….Osterphoole selling crap in wholesale fashion……the neighbor with donations and social media messages full of perjury.

            O’ Mara can wallow in his shit all he wants…..Trayvon was swaying in the 7-11… he wasn’t and no matter how many times he says it, it makes one more time he looks ridiculous. Rachael Jantel…..was very human and credible. You could tell she was straight from the heart. Mentally torturing her did not work at all.

            Papa Z today……he even admitted he had to listen to the 911 calls repeatedly before he realized the gravity, yet Tracy and Sabryna were heartfelt and credible.

            When you put together how many issues can be mentioned with this “….what are the odds of that happening…” it points to liars and their self serving lies……all carefully prepped and gift wrapped, and right on cue. Gladys was so disingenuous she should have had a neon sign over her head saying “Liar” with a big blinking arrow pointing down.

            Lets have faith…..I believe the best argument is to come. Who was sweating the last 4 weeks……Fogen and West (Moron O ain’t smart enough) Who gets an ass kicking by the judge regularly…..

            In fact they are so far removed from reality that Nelson had to get it on the record Fogen waived his Immunity AND his right to testify. Despite waiving his right to testify and their thinking all these witnesses did for him, the jury will want info from his lips and despite the jury instructions, this will leave them pondering what is he hiding. Rarely does that ploy work.

            He must show by a preponderance of the evidence he acted in self defense and he, not his lawyers, not his witnesses, must say this.

            I’m gonna take a stab that the state will show that Fogen would still have been on the phone with NEN when he claims he was attacked. Leaving this until closing is brilliant to be honest. Now the defense has no counter to it.

            If the jury decides that he could never have pulled his pistol like he says and the injuries are minor…..nothing else matters it’s M2……Game ~ Set ~ Match. They may say he would have been on the phone with Sean and he had to have his gun out. They may just say because he got out of his truck and Trayvon was just walking home…..Fogen don’t go home no more (homie)

            Several times the jury asked about specific pieces of information and would they have access during deliberations and I forget what they were, but hashing it clearly would be anti Fogen.

            Keep the faith, remember none of the facts have changed and as was said before, this is not their 1st rodeo.

            Let me spell out how stupid the defense is.

            Judge Nelson quizzed Fogen on his decision to refrain from the stand. We all saw this. After court O’ Mara states to the reporters that his client wanted to take the stand and has a story to tell….Huh ?????? You don’t realize what you said Mr. Moron…

      • diary73 says:


        I love you and everything you have done! Every time I look at my own son, I think of the picture you posted many months ago with your son and you when you shared with us your motivation in all this.

        I think of you often when I encounter little things with my young man who turned 18 years old just today. In fact, The picture of your son and you came to my mind today when I dropped my son off at one of the outlet stores. A sharp pain pierced my heart as that tall figure walked away from me in a dark grey hooded sweatshirt, shorts, and white sneakers. I then returned to reality and thanked God for my boy. I then thought of Trayvon and how sad his Mother must feel. I then thought of that picture of your son and you.

        You are a gem, Papa. I humbly thank you. Please don’t lose faith. Justice will prevail!


        • MollyK says:

          I love you, too, LLMPapa. I have two sons, and I’ve been haunted by Trayvon’s murder since I first learned about it. I am still stunned that so many people think that it’s fine for a barely 17-yo boy to go to the store for candy and be gunned down on his way home. The worst part is that GZ never, ever, gave a good reason for suspecting him. You have devoted so much time, effort, creativity, brilliance, to building a strong case against GZ and for justice. I just hope that the state comes through in closing arguments and the jury convicts.

      • Malisha says:

        I AM WAITING for LLMPapa’s video of the jury foreperson saying “GUILTY.”

        I WANT THAT, OK?

    • looolooo says:

      It has been proven that YOU have put in more time, dedication, and effort than the state did. Who knew that so many people would choose to be so very proudly prejudiced and biased against an innocent young boy? I’m astounded at fogen’s ability to lie, deny, convince others that he’s a fine upstanding citizen, and to boldly watch as they; one after the other, testify on his behalf as though he were Jim Jones or some other cult leader.

      That middle eastern gentleman said it all when he said that fogen was so convincing in his bullying denial that he doubted if it had really even happened.

      Today is the worst birthday I’ve ever had. 😦

      HOODIES (still) UP!

    • Likewise LLMPapa. All we can do is pray that justice for Trayvon is served. In addition, thanks for all of your support through videos throughout this whole ordeal.

    • Nef05 says:

      I’m right there with you, LLMPapa and many who felt the same as you withstood hell for days by some that made it feel like we were wrong for feeling that way.

      That said, and always having the greatest respect for your opinion,, since it mirrors mine a lot. 🙂 – Begs the question WHY? KISS is one thing. Not putting forward the pieces of evidence that GLARINGLY show his guilt, I don’t understand. This is Corey’s “A” Team, they don’t make these kinds of mistakes.

      Ergo, it must have been deliberate, but WHY? Nevertheless, I still say Agg man, which is the same sentence as murder two.

    • Xena says:

      @LLMPapa. You and Teeslaw (Whonoze) were mentioned in an article by Michael Skolnick. He is instrumental in the Trayvon Martin Foundation, so I’m sure that Tracy and Sybrina both know of, and appreciate your work.

      You’ve worked hard. I love you for it.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Great stuff, LLM Papa, and none of it is in vain. You gave shape to thoughts that needed expression, and though the prosecution team may be trying the case a little differently, your work paved the way in consciousness, a vital first step toward arresting and trying Fogen.

    • diary73 says:


      I love you and everything you have done! Every time I look at my own son, I think of the picture you posted many months ago with your son and you when you shared with us your motivation in all this.

      I think of you often when I encounter little things with my young man who turned 18 years old just today. In fact, The picture of your son and you came to my mind today when I dropped my son off at one of the outlet stores. A sharp pain pierced my heart as that tall figure walked away from me in a dark grey hooded sweatshirt, shorts, and white sneakers. I then returned to reality and thanked God for my boy. I then thought of Trayvon and how sad his Mother must feel. I then thought of that picture of your son and you.

      You are a gem, Papa. I humbly thank you. Please don’t lose faith. Justice will prevail!


    • elle says:

      Papa, I have said it before, and I will say it again, you say more in 60 seconds than most people say in a lifetime. I am in awe. And, my heart is with you.

    • smokeegyrl says:

      LLMPapa you know How I feel about you. I have two youtube channels. One under SMoKeeGyRL and one under Darlene January. I have been following you and subscribed to you back 1 year ago. I wasn’t creating any of my videos until march of this year because I was busy with the advocacy of Domestic Violence, Abuse and Rape and the Presidential Election. My support has always been there for Trayvon Martin and his family since the making of Kony2012. I met them on the #Kony2012 hashtag page when they were seeking help and how to get this out there virally. I stopped following Kony2012 and started collecting news about the Martin Family, join the Marches here in Colorado and started looking at all your videos and fell in love with the family and your support of this family. Then I started reading all the reports and did my own reports, my own timelines… ended up on HLN Events page (regrets that one). You have been Inspiration throughout all of this. You have been the one that has kept my head positive to stay strong for the Martin family. I absolutely THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart. Then I found this blog. I found all of you Thank You!

      This is a picture I created for one of my video’s. I am also sending this in wall frame for the Martin Family.

    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      LLPappa, I think you’ve done an excellent job.

    • LLMP, do not lose faith. There will be a civil case, just as there was in the OJ case and your work will save the family attorney’s some big money. Hold tight with your excellent presentations please. In a civil case the laws are to a lessor standard than they are in a murder trial. I have faith your work will be invaluable in a civil case.

      • Nef05 says:

        There will be a civil case,

        With what assets? Zimmerman couldn’t make rent!

        Simpson was a former pro baller and H-trophy winner, and endorser. Zimmerman’s cars were about to get repossessed and he didn’t have money for LUNCH. What ASSETS? All Civil cases are NOT Equal.

        • towerflower says:

          Another thing to consider is that Florida has bankruptcy protection laws that protect some items…..Did you ever wonder why Simpson moved to Florida after his bankruptcy? It was so he could buy another home and live off his retirement safe from collection of the judgment. Michael Jackson was also looking into Florida at one time when he was getting sued. Florida protects the home and retirement income.

          With Z, if he continues to gain money from supporters from his begging it could be attached and if he tries to write a book or movie rights it could be attached. But a win in civil trial will hang over his head for a very long time. Even Casey Anthony isn’t clear of hers yet and she is another one with nothing.

    • pork que says:


      You are to be forever held in the highest regard for your tenacity, accuracy and awesome music choices.

      Thank you –

    • Tzar says:

      from the bottom of my heart you get an E-hug from me. (and from so many others)

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      I’ve been thinking about that, but how would you present that kind of information? The evidence are the phonerecords, the nen call, Rachel Jeantel’s testimony, 911 calls and event logs, witness statements, crime scene evidence photos, and GZ’s statements. All that is in evidence, but none of the witnesses that were on the stand to give the evidence, can testify to any conclusions based on the combination of that evidence. The defense attempted to do this through the animation guy and was denied the opportunity to introduce the animation as evidence because it picks and chooses what evidence to use and not to use and draw conclusions based on that, while that is the job of the jury.

      The prosecution could’ve done a better job, nailing down the timeline. They could’ve used Jane Surdyka’s 911 call and used the connection time of her call, to establish exactly when GZ got up and started walking, when Jon Manalo arrived etc.

      They should’ve had an expert on MMA on the stand, someone who could explain what grappling is the dynamics of a fight, different techniques that are taught, how do you take someone to the ground, how do you detain someone.

      Both the defense and the prosecution entered maps and timelines into evidence. The prosecution has said they will need about 3 hours for their closing statement. That means 3 hours to explain what took place in less than 10 minutes.

      At this time I have to agree with the defense that the prosecution hasn’t really introduced a theory about what happened behind the townhouses, and I can’t really tell if that is because they don’t have a solid theory or because this was their strategy to surprise the defense during closing arguments.

      My greatest concern is that they seem to have missed the misallignment of the bullet holes, which leaves them with the theory that Trayvon must have been leaning over. At least that is what it looked like during the cross of De Maio and Root.

      • Nef05 says:

        I agree. They touched on it, but didn’t make it the alternate (true) theory it should have been. They just let him explain it all away, like no big deal, even after getting his to admit it would have created the same (only possible) effect.

    • Soulcatcher says:


      I can see how you feel that way. It is your video’s that made it clear to me how guilty fogen is. Your videos spelled it out very clear, fogen is a liar, and It did not happen the way fogen said it did. Impossible. I believe your videos showed the justice for Trayvon beyond anything I have seen from the state so far. The State better put on one hell of a closing, if fogen walks, IMO justice was not done. It will only confirm that the names may change but the game still remains the same. That hurts.

      For those of us who are white who stand with those of color, for justice for a young man who was only walking home with an Arizona Ice Tea and skittles for his brother,we only want a verdict that would be the same if that young man was white. There is no question as to what that verdict would be, that beyond a resonable doubt, what fogen says cannot be true, and only a liar and coward would not take the stand. A decient honest American
      would take stand and tell his side of the story, and swear to the thruth and God, the fact that he doesn’t speaks a thousand words.

      I hear fogens friend Corn Stalker Taffee is springgen for Pizza, and here I thought Oysterman said he was fogen’s white token friend. I guess that’s where his MIA black friend is,handing out invatations in the black community to all his AA friends to the pizza party to celabrate fogens aquittal. To bad a black kid had to die for Taffee to enjoy a pizza with fogen. I’ll bet Taffee will be swaying on his way out.

    • LeaNder says:

      Papa, I am slightly shell shocked too. Although, the term reminds me of the peculiar real flashbacks that I witnessed in London. The really peculiar thing about it that the men to which it happened were not even aware of it. But I can assure you it was really strange to watch.

    • Soulsistawoo says:

      LLMPapa I want to take this time to THANK YOU for all of your EXCELLENT contributions to this case. Between Your Youtube videos, Professor Leatherman and Trent I have been EDUCATATED and WELL INFORMED through out this entire case…

      So Thank you… Thank you… Thank you!!!

      • towerflower says:

        LLMPapa, You are one who is to be admired. Your work was not in vain and it opened my eyes to a few things that I never considered before. Your talent for the details is amazing. If by some chance we are ever able to meet I wish to shake your hand and buy you dinner and a drink for all that you have done.

    • Not Angela Lansbury says:

      I agree; something is not clean in the milk. I’ve wanted to scream every time a prosecutor complained that Fogen had two whole minutes after his call ended to get back to his truck, when they *must* know from the final interrogation that Fogen’s supposed trek back to his car began 84 seconds before his call ended. Two minutes is excusable; 3.5 minutes is not. So many similar points were left on the cutting-room floor. The state either threw this case or phoned it in when it deserved SO much more from them.

      Besides the parents and their legal team, I don’t believe anyone did as much as you, Papa, to secure Justice for Trayvon. The fact is that many know the truth, regardless of how this jury rules, and so your efforts have not been wasted. You raised the spirit of that lost child, as well as the spirits of the many he left behind. Thank you.

  96. willisnewton says:

    It was my understanding that she decided already that there would be no sanctions against Donnelly. What did others here see? (I am not a lawyer, but I thought she made he ruling on that issue.)

    Also it was my understanding that Mantei would be addressing the jury instructions issues in the AM, and that BDLR had a three hour closing presentation ready, absent a few final touches.

    Again what did others see? Have I got this wrong?

    • ZCBest says:

      Seeing through your eyes too Willis. I have done a little research and re-watched and that is exactly what my understanding is.

    • Thrace says:

      Pros is breaking up their closing into two parts. HLN says Bernie is going first. Then the defense. And John Guy will do the last half of closings.

      • willisnewton says:

        I’m not a lawyer. Is there some sort of rebuttal period here? what is the order of things?

        It seems you are saying that first we will hear BDLR, then MOM, then John Guy to close the proceedings?

        That sounds good to me.

        • Thrace says:

          State always gets the last word. It’s not unusual that they break up their time where one prosecutor goes first, then defense and then another pros rebuttal closing to the defense’s. I wasn’t sure which ones were doing it till HLN said Bernie & then Guy. O’Mara is not happy about it – he made a remark about hoping it wasn’t going to go the two attys route today.

        • PiranhaMom says:


          No rebuttal re Kokopelli guy because prosecution can’t impeach its own witness.

          Other rebuttal guy lives elsewhere in the state (ATF guy re the 8-year old arrest for assault on an officer) and may not be available to testify to Zimmerman’s rage.

          Or Bernie may re-thing using an 8-year old charge that was reduced to a misdemeanor. (I would.) It would be a weak ending. EIGHT years ago??? Ultimately, a misdemeanor ???? It’s like they have no other witnesses and likely they don’t have any they can use.

      • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

        John Guy needs to do the entire thing.. Sit Bernie down for God sakes..

    • Sophia33 says:

      I had that same understanding.

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @Willis –

      You are correct. Mantei will handle the argument in the morning expanding the choice of charges the jury may consider, and defining the jury instructions. He is THE BEST CHOICE for this. Analytical, armed with all necessary precedents and details; clear cut. This will be done outside the jury’s view, starting at 9:00 a.m Thursday.

      The jury assembles at 1:00 p.m. O’Mara will give his closing argument; he expects this to take three hours. He can use the “info graphics” video. None of the attorney’s arguments are EVIDENCE. The video may not be requested by the jury for review during its deliberations.

      Friday morning it will be ALL PROSECUTION in its closing argument. (O’Mara objects to this, because his presentation Thursday afternoon will have melted away.) O’Mara also objects that two prosecuting attorneys will present the prosecution’s closing argument, but Judge Nelson has always allowed that and she said she will continue to do so.

      Friday morning Bernie will start out – he has the manikin and timeline, among other exhibits. Guy will wrap up – in a fiery, incandescent, memorable finish. Bernie expects that to wrap up by noon Friday.

      Likely the jury instructions will be given right after lunch, and then the jurors will be sent to the jury room for deliberations. Likely Friday afternoon will be consumed by selecting their foreperson and setting up its “protocols” – whether to take preliminary votes; evidence they want to request to review in the jury room, etc.

      The CourtHouse is open on Saturday. I hope (and expect) they will start their in-depth deliberation on Saturday and get a major leg up on their work.

      Unless there are die-hard racists on the jury who will stall for a hold-out AGAINST ANY CHARGES, I expect they could reach a decision by late Monday, but agree to review their decision Tuesday morning, then announce to the judge that they have a verdict and gather in court at 2:00 p.m. on Tuesday to announce it. Possibly this would take an additional 24-hour cycle.

      This is, after all, not a WHOdunit. They know that.

      Because there is a wider array of lesser charges (not just manslaughter) this gives the “realistic majority” of jurors a chip to bargain with any holdouts (the option is a hung jury, say of 5-1 which results in a retrial. A re-trial is bad news for George as all his sins have now been displayed). But a hung jury could drag this out until the end of the week or into the following week.

      Willis, let me know your thoughts on this.

      And great thanks for your fine efforts throughout this whole sorry mess.

      Much appreciated!


      • Ann says:

        I thought it was prosecution closing (Bernie) at 1pm tomorrow; then defense closing Fri morning and prosecution final also Friday morning; Friday afternoon will be for instructing the journey. I am sure this is what I heard her say today.

      • LeaNder says:

        Piranha, I am with Ann. My impression was that defense said they would not be ready and thus wanted the closing arguments to start on Friday. Sounds familiar? It seems there was an objection from defense they wanted the closing arguments to start on Friday for both parties. What would the jury have done the whole day?

        Nelson, was great again in this context: It makes sense to me, it does not need to make sense to you. — or something to the effect. She also told them if they have their closing argument on Friday this will give them a little time. that they still had a little more time for preparations till Friday

        So yes, let’s see. I think Nelson’s concern is to keep the jury for longer than absolutely necessary. She even made night shifts to not keep them waiting for too long. That’s what I understood “makes sense to me” to be about. Keep in mind that in this scenario the jury could start deliberations during the weekend, in the West/Mom scenario they would waste another weekend waiting.

      • LeaNder says:

        But a hung jury could drag this out until the end of the week or into the following week.

        What influence will it have that most of these ladies will likely want to go home sooner rather than later?

        Do we have a list of all the exhibits they have to or can consider?

  97. Beverly says:

    Thank you for the update; we welcome your thoughts, always.

  98. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    Professor, explain the Donnelly decision today.. Didn’t she allow his testimony regardless of the violation?

  99. Malamiyya says:

    Seems you are.

  100. J4TMinATL says:


    Are you and Crane okay? We haven’t heard much from you.

  101. J4TMinATL says:


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