Second day of trial has been completed in Zimmerman case

Tuesday, June 25, 2013

Good evening:

Trials ebb and flow. There are good days and bad days. The struggle for us is to remain on an even keel throughout the case, taking the good with the bad without getting too excited or too depressed.

The good news today was provided by Diane Smith, a crime scene technician employed by the Sanford Police Department. Using flashlights, she and several police officers visually searched the two sidewalks that intersect each other forming the “T.” They did not find any blood.

This result is inconsistent with the defendant’s claim that Trayvon attempted to beat him to death by punching him repeatedly in the face and slamming the back of his head into the concrete sidewalk many times.

She also testified that the DNA lab did not detect the presence of the defendant’s blood or DNA in Trayvon’s fingernail clippings or on the cuffs and lower sleeves of Trayvon’s two sweatshirts. This result also is inconsistent with the defendant’s statement.

Finally, she told us that Trayvon’s DNA and latent fingerprints were not detected on the defendant’s gun.

I believe Don West told the jury during his opening statement that Zimmerman’s DNA would have been detected on Trayvon’s clothing, if his clothing had been packaged in paper bags instead of plastic bags.

Turns out that the clothing was packaged in paper bags

Mark O’Mara joined the hit parade today when he accused witness Selene Bahador of recently changing her statement to add that she heard loud yelling behind her townhome that appeared to be moving N/B in the direction of the T. He was nasty.

She said that she formed her opinion long ago but failed to include it her statements.

I assume she is telling the truth. Whether she is or not, she did not deserve the treatment she received from O’Mara.

We resume tomorrow morning at 9 am EDT.

Here’s the link to the livestream coverage.

277 Responses to Second day of trial has been completed in Zimmerman case

  1. LeaNder says:

    so sad, so sad, I could cry. Remember Malisha, this was my biggest fear from early on, and it was obvious.

  2. LeaNder says:

    Malisha, do you remember I told you, this girl needs help? She needs to be prepared for their attacks. If you ask me from a purely phonetic take on matters, they managed to put something inside her speech she hasn’t even said.

  3. LeaNder says:

    Now they are trying to get in Diwataman and Jeralyn Merritt’s wisdom. I wrote about here does anyone remember?

  4. Nellie Nell says:

    I love this girl….. she is smarter than expected and she will not be duped by the bozo.

  5. Dee says:

    The court camera stayed focused on Zimmerman sister for a very long time. I hope someone mentioned how many times she was leaving the court room, most likely telling her parents what was going on in the court room. However, they are out for a reason so when they testify their testimony would be geared to what they have been saying throughout the court testimonies.

  6. I missed Jeannie’s with BLDR. Anything major was said?

  7. Prosecution is supposed to demonstrate their case to the jury. Will the jury be forming an opinion based on the cross-exams only? I mean it is an interestingly complex case where dots need to be linked. Is it up to the Jury to do that based on what is going on or will the state bring up its view.
    There is nothing like “Hahaaa! You saw this and GZ said that”
    Can a witness be called multiple time too? I’m afraid one time is too short to build an opinion when you don’t already have a larger picture in mind.

  8. ladystclaire says:

    BTW, this is I believe why West is asking for so many breaks between asking questions of the witnesses, to get a drink of water. there is something funny going on there.

    • “He’s on water or sumtin”

      • ladystclaire says:

        LOL, I think they need to have a cooler by the podium with bottled water in it just for him. there is something going on with that as well as how fogen is looking at that computer screen, writing something down and then he slides the piece of paper to O’dirty who in turn glances down at it.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Perhaps he is becoming diabetic and his sugar is very high. That could explain some of his incoherence too.

  9. ladystclaire says:

    It’s my belief that Fogen is writing down things from the CTH and, passing it to O’dirty who in turn gives it to West. if this is the case, then something needs to be done about it. just watch Fogen when he is looking at the computer screen in front of him and, he is writing down stuff on paper.

  10. Jayne claims that the higher pitch voice she heard earlier is the same one yelling “HELP MEEE”! West tries to make her admit that she doesn’t know but she won’t budge.

  11. Boyd says:

    Operation West— wear em down until you hope they’re confused.

  12. Ms.X says:

    The men were on the ground in the grass. I’m so thankful there was an eye witness to the murder.

    • Dee says:

      He differently can’t get your head bashed in the grass. Zimmerman self-inflicted these wounds to his head himself, with the butt of his own gun. People have shot themselves before to try to cover a murder they have committed. So this is not something that could not have happened. Now yes maybe Trayvon punched him trying to top him from pulling his gun on him. However, I really don’t’ think that Tryvon even hit him at all in the nose. For one reason, Trayvon didn’t have blood on his hand. As well as his knuckles were not brushed in any way, nor was any DNA of Zimmerman on him. I believe that Zimmerman caught up with Trayvon when he first got away from Zimmerman; and when Zimmerman caught him, he grabbed Trayon by his shirt swinging him to the ground, and while still holding on to Trayon shirt he aimed at Trayvon and shot him once in the chest. Trayvon said. ”you shot me” if that is what he said at all, because a shot in the heart, I doubt he even said that much but could have been his last words. And as Zimmerman was walking up and down he probably was hitting himself making sure it looked as though he was in a serious fight for his life. However, they didn’t even take a DNA of the clip that was in the gun to even see if DNA was on it, that was something they should have done, but evidentially didn’t.

  13. Ms.X says:

    West just doesn’t seem so smart to me. Different people have different phraseology & I guess I don’t like his. He tries to get people to agree to his inane phraseology. His cross examination is stupid. Maybe he is dumb like a fox. Maybe I’m wrong.

  14. RastaGirl says:

    I totally dozed last night, however I would really like to see BDLR go buy a good human size doll tell the court to dim the lights and put a spotlight on him and the doll, ha ha have JN hold a stop watch and viciously bang it’s head on the floor for a minutes time (in head banging that would be a very long time) and after he’s tired out of breath he just says “Nothing further” lol

  15. Ms.X says:

    I guess Omaras interns are looking fo her facebook page.

  16. Ms.X says:

    Shuzaaaaam! She really dropped a bomb!! Omara is livid. Hes going to try to eviserate her. My nbc link died.

  17. Dee says:

    Good Morning everyone,

    I want to bring something to your attention, Keep an eye on Zimmerman sister in court. I have noticed how many times she leaves the court doing session. I can imagine that she is updating her parents on what is going on. I can’t believe that the court is allowing her to leave back a forth so much. She cannot be going to the restroom that much. She is probably telling her parents what’s going on so that they can adjust their testimonies I assume.

  18. KittySP says:

    Local 6 reported a witness being excused…which one was?

  19. KittySP says:

    Does anyone else get the feeling that as result of GZs actions, some of the witness have had to move for their homes?

  20. Jun says:

    I know some of yall hate the media circus from FogenTV but IMO, the media worked with the state and played Good Cop Bad Cop with Fogen Gang

    Think about it

    Everything Robbie The Racist said can now be used against him in a court of law

    Everything Omara said, can now be used against him in a court of law

    Fogen’s hannity thingy is being used against him in a court of law

    They did the same thing to Jodi Arias and all her media slander campaign was used against her in a court of law

    I personally hated it but at the same time I can see the positive in that there’s material to be used against them LOL

  21. Lynn says:

    Anyone out there have any recollection or a link to the anonymous tip to crime stoppers? I had things tabbed and computer crashed w/ no recovery. ARGH!

    A little while back I read on another blog about witnesses telling a “girl” to get back inside because someone got shot. That had me opening tabs and I had everything ready to talk about here when my tabs were lost.
    I remembered the crime stopper tip saying there was an 8 yr old who lived in a townhouse within eyesight of the murder and that they had an enclosed porch.
    I looked through statements and saw that one witness had her daughter and a neice at the house. I looked at maps of RATL and didn’t see a porch on that side. I was thinking it would be like the end porch with a small overhang.
    WELL, yesterday’s photos show Selene’s apt and it has an enclosed porch!!!! It lays flat with the building. Like a screen covering the opening, not a built on porch extending out. OMG. Selene talked about kids in her house.
    Any one have any ideas??????????????????????????

  22. FactsFirst says:


  23. chi1224 says:

    Good morning to everyone. Reflecting on the testimony yesterday, when O’Mara was bullying Ms. Baladour I wish she would have said- Yes I signed that petition I think Zimmerman is guilty as hell, would you like me to tell the court why I have that opinion?” Where does O’Mara get off acting like she has a duty to remain impartial? She is not a juror. This murder happened in her back yard. She heard the victim screaming. Of course she has an opinion and she is entitled to it. I was appalled by O’Mara’s behavior yesterday and I hope the jury was too.

  24. diary73 says:

    I thought things were to begin at 8:30. Is NBC not airing today?

  25. disappointed says:

    MOM came across as a bully when he grabbed laptop as the witness was reading what he asked her to read. If that makes him feel good so be it. I personally think it was rude as I am sure some of the Jurors who happen to be women like me did too.

  26. Trained Observer says:

    Good morning, all. heading out this morning but a few
    quick questions:

    * When MOM gets going on asking the same question seven ways from Sunday all the while getting the same answer as with yesterday for the “event” witness, could BDLR have chosen to object with “asked and answered” or “badgering”?

    * Can JN do that even if BDLR chooses not to?

    * On the left to right issue. When everyone knows the sun rises in the east and sets in the west and an “event” occurs two hours after high noon, would anybody be questioning the direction of the sun?
    Investigators all knew where wit lived and where body was found.

    * Is State likely to call FDLE investigator to explain lack of specific “left to right” verbiage?

    • Tzar says:

      I wondered the same about the “asked and answered”

    • crazy1946 says:

      I would suggest that the that with it having been exposed that in “none” of the interviews with the witness, the question was asked, it is now a non issue as to why the FDLE did not ask! Perhaps it is a better question as to why the defense did not ask, they are the ones that did a long and tedious interview with this witness!

  27. crazy1946 says:

    Realizing the BDLR does not ask a question for no purpose, does anyone have any idea why he asked the crime scene technician (Mz. Smith) about the residue on the bags found at the scene? could it be that the Fogdiot’s finger prints were found on the bag? Or? Any ideas?

    • disappointed says:

      I think there may be finger prints on the 7/11 bag. That witness does not analyze the fingerprints or the DNA therefore we have to wait for it. :/

      • SearchingMind says:

        I am almost sure that is the case with regard to the 7/11 bag and other items. I can’t imaging Fogen not thinking that Trayvon had a firearm and searching desperately for it.

  28. SearchingMind says:

    Good morning Professor and all

    O’Mara’s behavior towards Ms. Baladour was juvenile and silly. Granted, O’Mara has by nature the demeanor of a wimp. But acting like a street thug in Court to counterbalance that “wimpy nature” made him look bad and diminished him considerable.

    I congratulate Ms. Baladour for her good performance yesterday. Via her three good piece of evidence were introduced to the trial: (a) Trayvon and GZ moved from left to right towards the “T”, (b) Trayvon and GZ were both standing facing each other when she saw them few seconds before the shot, (c) Trayvon lay as cops found him – i.e. face down in the grass, several feet away from the grass with his head pointing towards the “T”.

    The Face Book petition is not an issue, IMO, because: physical evidences upports Ms. Baladour’s testimony (the position of the GZ’s flash light, Trayvon’s cell phone, etc.). All these will become clear when prosecutors begin connecting the dots. This will happen later. Right now, there laying down the ground work and positioning themselves for the strike.

    The only thing I desperately want to see improved is the application of “objections” by Prosecutors. I am sure Prosecutor have such confidence in their case that they do not see the need to engage in a guerilla-warfare against West, expose, embarrass and “destroy” him in front of the whole world. This shows how dignified and graceful Bernie, Guy and Mantei really are. But they also do have to watch out. The government MUST be correct 100% of the time. The criminal and/or defendant has to be correct just ONCE to wreak havoc.

    • Tzar says:

      SearchingMind says:
      June 26, 2013 at 7:40 am

      Good morning Professor and all

      *snipped for focus by Tzar*

      The only thing I desperately want to see improved is the application of “objections” by Prosecutors. I am sure Prosecutor have such confidence in their case that they do not see the need to engage in a guerilla-warfare against West, expose, embarrass and “destroy” him in front of the whole world. This shows how dignified and graceful Bernie, Guy and Mantei really are.

      This is what I am thinking as well
      there is no way on earth they will jeopardize this case
      it would be a national embarrassment
      So I don’t see them taking a genuine laissez faire approach
      I have to assume that they have this one in the bag

  29. LeaNder says:

    Hello everybody good early late morning early afternoon whatever it may be.

    There was something about the call of teacher, at least I think it was her. But for whatever reason, and I think there was a discussion about the call and it was not entered into evidence.

    Connection time: 19:17:06

    did anyone here pay closer attention, no time to look at all the comments, sorry.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      The following are excerpts from W18’s (school teacher’s) call:

      Oh, my God. He’s shot. He shot the person

      Oh, my God. Why does he have to be killed?

      Oh. Oh, my God for somebody to be shot.

      I can’t even believe that I because um this is the other person Oh, my God.

      This is like a NICE neighborhood It isn’t like, you know Oh my God. I don’t want I’m too scared to live here.

      Oh, my God. To see someone killed laying in the grass. Oh, my God.

      Oh, my God. Why would somebody kill someone like that?

  30. Tzar says:

    2008 Zimmerman applied for citizen’s law enforcement academy (4:00 minute mark) but you should watch the whole video.

    • disappointed says:

      Tzar thanks for the video. Very interesting. Vinny seemed a little upset. Maybe that is an understatement. But for Fogen Trayvon would be alive today. Says it all and sums it up!

  31. YQ says:

    My Opinions-

    About Dorival: Fogen was feeling the pressure of getting himself ahead, especially in law enforcement. It has to be typical (as with any vouch to get ahead) that one puts his best foot forward. Dorival is not going accept any volunteers who approach, else that might make her a liability. So why would she testify to feeling that he was a little “off”? If she testified that in court, it could mean her job. Of course she wouldn’t say he was shady, nor would he have given her that impression.

    About O’Mara: It seems like he is using the Conservative Treehouse playbook and running it step by step. He also implied yesterday by “exposing” Bahadoor’s page that certain witnesses are not be trusted. He’s some kind of lawyer, especially the way he snatched the laptop away after she read the page heading. Kinda reminds me of the NBA-Jaokim Noah. You get a rebound put back and score two points, and then celebrate like you won the whole game. I get the feeling, though, that maybe he is putting too many eggs in that basket, and that it was good to see this part of his strategy early on. Bahadoor IMO doesn’t have the most damning evidence and that maybe he rolled craps too soon and should have held on to it for another day. Now if he uses it again, the jury would begin to feel like witnesses are being intruded upon.

    • Jun says:

      I dont think he hurt Witness 2’s testimony to be honest

      Simply liking a page on facebook and answering the question that people need to know what happened and testifying that she did not want to be on TV but she did so to inform people, does not prove any of Omara’s points

      Omara actually looks like a hypocrite because he is the one seen in the media day in day out regarding the case

      Witness 2 never said left to right but she did say “towards the T” to officer Serino, and Serino said something like “you mean this direction”

      Lastly, since the defense opening, the jury saw the close up photos of Trayvon’s hands and heard the testimony from the CSI tech, saw Fogen’s up close photos and now they know that the defense lied to them

      They saw Trayvon’s dead body and hands up close and there was nothing indicating that he attacked Fogen in any way

      IMO, they lost some credibility with the judge and jury

      I do not see how exactly he exposed Bahadoor to be perfectly honest and Omara was being a rude prick to a lady, in front of a female jury, and for no reason

      I am not the jury but I do not feel he came off very well to the jury and the judge

      At this point, it looks to me that Omara is conspiring to cover up a murder, lying to slander and disrespect the deceased

      • cielo62 says:

        Jun- BINGO!


      • Dave says:

        JUN, you’ve brought up a very good point. Most of the key prosecution witnesses are women and O’Mara and West have to be very careful not to appear to be beating up on them during cross examination in front of an all female jury. O’Mara doesn’t seem to get it.

  32. crazy1946 says:

    Just a little factoid about blood being washed off the sidewalk..

    Isn’t it strange how an old mind can process information? Remember “an old mind is a terrible thing to waste” or was that “an old mind is a terrible waste of things”? Hmmm, too much time on my hands, time to get busy, right?

    • LeaNder says:

      They will argue that at the time CSI arrived and could take a look everything was washed away. It can’t have been much anyway. I have been wondering about the tools they talked about for a long time now. Seems it wasn’t done.

      • crazy1946 says:

        There are some links about this subject that indicate the residue would last for quite some time, especially since this was not a smooth closed surface piece of concrete? I still think that if MOM had thought this story was true it would have been done by the defense….

      • LeaNder says:

        Yes, I know. That is why I am wondering why it was not done, crazy.

      • Malisha says:

        Wasn’t done because the cops were satisfied they did not need evidence to SHOW self-defense since they had been told to go ahead and ASSUME self-defense. Not until Fogen got CHARGED was there any issue.

    • crazy1946 says:

      Now if you have read that link and processed what it stated, would it not seem that someone from the tree slum would have found this information and had MOM and crew out checking the sidewalks for evidence that would have verified his clients story? Wonder why that was not done? Could it be because there was no “SIDEWALK WEAPON” used?

  33. disappointed says:

    Good morning Everyone!

  34. elcymoo says:

    Real Lawyerin’ Goin’ Down

    DateTuesday, June 25, 2013 at 9:39PM

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Thanks for posting the link, elcymoo.

      From the article:

      on redirect, de la Rionda asked her if any one of the investigators had asked her which direction the movement came from. She said no. As a matter of fact, none of the transcripts made mention of that question. No one asked her. That includes the Defense deposition of Ms. Bahador. Mark O’Mara never asked her the direction. Neither did Don West. What was that old saying? You’ll never know if you never ask. Or something like that.

  35. Malisha says:

    Knock Knock.
    Who’s there?
    West Who?
    West awhile befaw you get back in da ring wit Bernie!

    Knock Knock.
    Who’s there?
    O’Mara who?
    Right, up until now!

    Knock Knock.
    Who’s there?
    Senior who?
    Seen your book and kept my $3.99.

    Knock Knock.
    Who’s there?
    Timothy who?
    You know, the guy who went on TV to call himself a motherf*cker.

    Knock Knock.
    Who’s there?
    W-6 who?
    Stay tuned; we may find out after he gives his third version.

    Knock Knock.
    Who’s there?
    Uhrig and Sonner.
    Uhrig and Sonner who?
    Uhrig and Sonner who figured it out and beat it the Hell outta there.

    Knock Knock.
    Who’s there?
    Nelson who?
    We shall see …

  36. gbrbsb says:

    Anyone any idea how to set up a mac using chrome to receive the WP livestream feed so as to update automatically, as I have to do “refresh” all the time to update the thread which is a pain.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      Be carefull what you wish for. You don’t want threads with a large number of comments, to automatically refresh. It will freeze up your browser.

      • gbrbsb says:

        Yeah I thought that could be a prob, but I’d still like to try because if I get comments by email it clogs up that, so need to see which is the worst of a bad deal!

        Was just reading yesterday’s comments, some yours, about W1, after reading David Knechal’s (Marinade Dave) article about the happenings in court yesterday and even he who is on this side got it wrong, explaining that W1 had never testified they were running before yesterday rather than that she never testified to the direction… probably thanks to BDLR not crossing with the full and/or correct details and/or objecting.

        Seline from her first interview with Serino on 1st of March 2012 said:

        “They were running in the back”

        and it’s “running” that is the important part, as it doesn’t matter whether left to right or right to left, whether she testified to the direction now or then, because once established GZ & Trayvon were running it proves GZ must have gone past the T, whether via RVC cutting through to the dog walk between houses or along the dog walk, who cares, they were running which GZ never made any reference to nor ever stated more than “I must have stumbled” down the T.

        One of your comments gave brought me some relief, i.e. that W1 will likely be called back to clarify all of this. Please, please let that be the case, amsterdam, because what happened yesterday to her testimony between what MOM did and what BDLR didn’t do, IMO was a complete travesty.

      • gbrbsb says:

        Sorry for my moan.. read Knechel’s article again and he does explain more or less correctly just that he puts emphasis on the “left to right” which IMO is not so important:

        As for running from left to right, why is it so important to O’Mara? Because it would mean that the fighting started farther south; let’s say, closer to Trayvon’s house, and it would mean the fight didn’t start at the “T” intersection. Unless the Defendant was running back to his truck from the south side and they caught up there.

        because even if running “right to left”, considering where W1 said she saw them that would mean GZ would have run down into the dogwalk in pursuit of Trayvon.

  37. Tee says:

    @ Milisha, you are right, The calls GZ made are very important and I believe they will be let in. They do show ill will and its crazy how he says a lot of the same things in other calls as he did with NEN about Trayvon that night. I listened to one where he tells the dispatcher ” I don’t know what his deal is”, heard one when he start off by saying that it’s been some burglaries in the area and its a real suspicious guy he’s noticed”, and I’ve heard one where he says ” i think he’s on drugs or something”. They show a pattern of behavior of when he’s calling about a black teen.

    • KittySP says:

      @tee- I commented about him using same pattern of speech and words on Local 6 live chat, but not all comments make through. What stood out for me, was him NOT saying anything about being ‘NW’ on the 2/26 call…all the calls they played yesterday he had no problem volunteering that information.

      • Malisha says:

        Oh wait a minute — I think I have figured out why he would not say to anyone on 2/26/2012 (either Sean OR Trayvon): “I’m with the Neighborhood Watch of this community”: it was because there had been fussing in the HOA about complaints residents were making after being harassed by Fogen. More than one complaint was made to the POLICE by residents. I think the HOA was going to have to act on this stuff pretty soon (especially since Fogen was about to be evicted) and especially because of the fact that he was KNOWN to carry a loaded GUN. Therefore, he did not want to say to Sean, “I’m the NW captain” because he intended to “have to use his gun” when he apprehended the “asshole trying to get away” specifically to prove to the HOA that he really NEEDED his gun and they really NEEDED HIM. I think the whole plan was to put him back into the driver’s seat with the NW/HOA thing so that he wouldn’t get ejected from the NW (the non-existent NW) and could cling to his “home” in RTL even though he couldn’t pay the March rent. In the prior calls to the police, he was not in such a tough spot with the NW/HOA/residents so he could still brag, “I’m with the NW.”

      • Tee says:

        What made my mouth hang open was him saying the same thing about not wanting to give his address out because he didnt know where the person was, when he was on the call from hs home.

  38. Malisha says:

    RE: self-defense in a fight you start

    Think of it. Nobody would be permitted to defend themselves against anyone bigger, ever again. Take a fictional (because this would NEVER HAPPEN) example. A guy gets drunk and goes home on a Saturday night and starts beating his wife. She fights back. She lands two good ones (giving him a bloody nose and a bonk on his head) so he shoots her in the heart.

    Self-defense, right? She’s dead; he can easily say she was beating him. My My look at his injuries!

    • Tzar says:

      this is why I think the people who defend fogen are actually more depraved than he is. what the fuck kind of society are they trying to live in?

  39. Malisha says:

    Fogen’s ONLY defense is self-defense. “I meant well but I killed someone” is not a defense because he killed someone under the age of 18 who was, furthermore, unarmed. So even if he skittled out under “accidental” homicide he’d be in for a serious sentence. His ONLY defense being self-defense, the issue of his having a motive of ill will is key to the case.

    If those prior phone calls to the police (NEN or 911) revealed a pattern of ill will or depraved mind towards youngsters in the neighborhood, they are essential evidence of exactly that state of mind that makes the charge murder-2 and I think it is legally inexcusable to exclude them. Even if they do not, taken alone, PROVE depravity of mind or ill will, coupled with following and refusing to identify himself (as per HIS OWN TELLING of the tale), they prove ill will and they DISPROVE self-defense because you cannot use self-defense as an excuse to employ deadly force in a fight YOU START.

    • tashatexas77048 says:

      The NHW angle is an important one because if he admits to “going in the same direction” as Martin then he admits he failed to keep a safe distance. He also put himself in harms way because according to his story the “direction” he saw Martin run was into the dark between houses. Its not like he was observing in the daylight and saw Martin running openly on the street and followed by car. He went into a danger zone and then claims he arrived at the danger zone with a flashlight that didn’t work. Therefore once he was in the dark he could not fulfill the second part of his NHW duty which is to watch and report. Without the benefit of light there was nothing he could do from a NHW perspective in terms of continuing to watch Martin. Therefore the fact that being in a dangerous area without light didn’t immediately send him back to his car means he wanted to confront Martin at all costs, regardless of the NHW rules.

      • tashatexas77048 says:

        One more thing, Sean saying “let me know if this guy does anything else” should have prompted Zimmerman to return to his car because according to his story He COULD NOT SEE.

  40. tashatexas77048 says:

    I now see why BDLR called W1. The defense introduced the “head banged on concrete” bullcorn in its cross of Mrs. Smith so the state called W1 to refute the notion of a head to concrete banging but I still don’t see why they didn’t ask her specifically about this if that was there reason for introducing her at that time. They need to make sure the jury understands their reason for calling a witness and which part of the defenses cross examination they are attempting to dispel.

    • Malisha says:

      Their reason for calling her was quite sound: they are building a cinema scene on the stage of the jurors’ mental “screens”: A guy decided to make himself a watch captain; he insinuated himself into the HOA of his neighborhood; he assumed “cop-like” powers; he spied a kid who had come from a visit to the convenience store one evening; he called the cops to “set up” a scene HE was about to stage; he chased the kid down (that is where Witness-1’s testimony fits in) and killed him.

      She testified to a chase. It’s part of the scene. There was no “wandering around/ambush/beating/shot” scene in the film. There was only a “silly fake-ominous phone call/chase/murder” scene.

    • Jun says:

      There was no blood on the sidewalk or grass in the area

      Omara’s rainy day wash bullshit is just that, bullshit

      If Omara’s logic flies, I could just as easily say that Omara had Trayvon’s blood all over his hands. but the rain washed it away

      Omara’s logic, you could frame anyone, when there is no trace of anything that proves they were there, and just say “the rain washed it away”

      The rain was drizzling, it was intermediate and the rain did not wash away Fogen’s blood, and yet it was also able to self heal and dry? But there argument is rain can only wash away blood on a sidewalk and off Trayvon’s hands, cuffs, sleeves, arms only? When rain comes down, is it prejudice to what it decides to wash away?

      Oh yeah, West beat up Fogen, but, the rain washed away the evidence from his hands

      West and Omara robbed a bank, but the rain washed it away

  41. tashatexas77048 says:

    I meant the defense knows not all of the calls are “good.”

  42. tashatexas77048 says:

    Obviously the state is admitting that Fogens previous calls could be considered “good deeds” as opposed to his last one because if all of the calls were good he wouldn’t now object to all of the calls being played.

    • Tzar says:

      the state is admitting no such thing, in fact Mantai laughed at the notion in his rebuttal to O’Mara response.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      The state is illustrating how gz’s behavior in his NEN call the night of 2/26/12 DEVIATED from his earlier calls.

      Clue: Frank Taaffe said that gz “was mad as hell and wasn’t going to take it anymore.”

    • tashatexas77048 says:

      My point is O’Mara changed his argument to
      “the Defendant’s good deeds cannot be used against him” yet we are his last NEN call 24/7. Clearly the call we are currently hearing isnt considered to be among Zimmerman’s “good deeds” or O’Mara would have argued that the NEN call the night of the murder waa simply a “good deed” call and should not be admitted. Im sure that is not the argument he made because then the judge would allow the older NEN tapes for the same reason she allowed the first one. The fact is the last NEN call was outrageous in relationship to the previous ones by virtue of the fact that he murdered Martin after his last NEN call. The defendant doesn’t want the calls played because of the juxtaposition between those calls and his last one which shows something in his mind change catastrophically by the time he made that last call.

      On the other hand, if all of his calls were great then his opinion should not be that they would prejudice the jury. It’s funny that the friendly NHW Coordinator wouldn’t want the jury to hear all of his “good deeds.”

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      The night of February 26 gz’s words to the NEN dispatcher foreshadowed his intent………..”These a$$h@les, they always get away.”

      In a quiet tone he implied that the system was flawed because they “ALWAYS get away” before the police arrived.

      The implication was that he would do things differently and NOT just watch.

      HOW DIFFERENTLY was vividly demonstrated by George’s action that night.

  43. Malisha says:

    Amsterdam, do me a favor. Get a greeting card and write the point that you thought of (which I still haven’t figured out) and send it by actual physical mail to BDLR or Corey and try to get it there within this week or by Saturday so he will have it by Monday morning next. Or, better yet, if you know someone in the US close to Florida or who could get it to the FDLE offices sooner (written on paper, not electronically), let them know about it so they get it there faster. I am wracking my brain to figure out what you mean but I know there are a few little gems to be uncovered — the problem is that steamrollers don’t always find little gems. I DO SO WANT to see O’Mara and West explode when Serene is recalled to the stand on rebuttal.

    I’ll re-post this on the “today” thread. :mrgreen:

  44. TheUsualSuspects says:

    I didn’t get a chance to watch Mantei’s full argument about the Rule 90.404 issue re the NEN calls. Does anyone know whether in addition to state of mind Mantei argued that the NEN calls are admissible on the basis that the calls show (1) proof of motive (to catch a thief); (2) a common plan or scheme to identify young AA males as suspicious by using the “recent burglaries” script; and (3) that GZ’s fixation on Trayvon was not a mistake?

    If Mantei’s only argument was state of mind, not so sure JN will bite unless the 20 cases provided to her present state of mind as the basis for admission. The calls definitely show a pattern of conduct, so I pray one of Mantei’s arguments was that the calls show GZ’s intent or at least a habit as it relates to young AA males. Since JN appears to be following the letter of the law, she may not admit the NEN calls if the prosecution did not argue the exceptions permitted by statute or provide on-point case law.

    On the other hand, it’s my understanding the defense had no objection to the admission of the calls, and I’m not so sure why JN would give the defense a do-over unless the prosecution failed to identify the calls in writing 10 days before trial, as required by the statute.

    Working late hours hasn’t allowed me to follow the proceedings as closely as I’d like, so thanks in advance for any details you can provide. Feel free to post a link to a video or transcript if you have one, and I’ll work through them during my breaks.

    • Malisha says:

      I would think that the door is wide open for ALL Fogen’s activities involving the police, since his NW history with the RTL HOA is part of the — get ready for the phrase — res gestae of the crime. HE was involved in an activity with the police “on behalf of” his neighborhood. How are his communications with the police not relevant to the actions he took on 2/26/2012 which were also allegedly part and parcel of his activities with the police on behalf of his neighborhood?

      • tashatexas77048 says:

        Exactly. Further his own attorney flushed the toilet on his “prejudicial” argument by then claiming what Zimmerman did were “good deeds.” How can JN disallow evidence on the basis that it was a good deed when the original objection was it would be prejudicial? I hope this judge doesn’t make me sick to my stomach today.

  45. EdgySF says:

    IIRC, there was speculation that the African American (aka “blahks”) jurors feared retribution from their communities had they convicted OJ.

    As a white native southerner, I can’t help but wonder if MOM will take a page out of Cochran’s (winning) play book.

    Is it possible the white jurors might sense pressure from their communities to vote along racial lines? Could a fear of job / career loss be a factor?

    Could he factor this in via intimidation & subtle clues?

    I want to believe that a stealth racist is not smart enough to have gotten on this jury. But this case has attracted extremists of the most frightening kind. And the media, for the most part, have gotten it so, so wrong.

  46. Dennis says:

    Q: If a lawyer never asks a question he doesn’t know the answer to–unless he’s reasonably sure it can’t hurt–why would De La Rionda ask about direction when he couldn’t possibly know?

    A: Because he did. And any astute juror now knows that the state isn’t to be trusted.

    • boyd says:

      what’s the big deal about a witness catching a glimpse of a direction? I go one direction for 30 seconds and then change directions for 30 seconds. which one did you see?

      the important thing is she said they were standing, it was about 15 seconds between her walk to the stove and the shot.

      boils down to GZ is lying about all that hands on the mouth, I’m gonna kill you, head being smashed into concrete. .

      and no blood s found, as he said he got punched n the mouth at the ‘T”, what happened to all the blood?

      Her sister who lives with her said left-to-right. they both saw it , one was upstairs one was downstairs , both were looking outside because they had the windows open and heard noises..

      • tashatexas77048 says:

        She is among a string of witnesses that can all verify one thing: George Zimmerman was on top of Martin instantly after that shot was fired and the problem with that is those two players could not have changed positions instantly. Martin would have to STAND UP, back up, turn around and then fall down while Zimmerman would have to rise from a supine position (his words) and get on top. The problem with both W6 and Fogens statement is he could not have gotten up and gotten on Martin only after the shot was fired without anyone seeing this position change. The chilling fact is Zimmerman was standing when he pulled that trigger.

      • boyd says:

        I always had him standing, no way he got that shot off on the ground with someone on top

      • tashatexas77048 says:

        Its also evident because Martin had grass even on his hands after supposedly only being on the grass after he fell there in death yet Zimmerman was REMARKABLY GRASS AND MUD FREE so he was not in that grass as was Martin. He may have fallen on that sidewalk at one point but at no time was he half in grass with his head on concrete. He immediately came up with that to explain why Martin found in and was covered in grass and also to put a “weapon” in Martins hands (concrete) at the same time. That’s one cold blooded SOB and I can honestly say I hate George Zimmerman.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        gz had mud and grass on the tips of his shoes.

      • tashatexas77048 says:

        I noticed he had grass and mud on the front of his boots so the grass was wet enough to be transferred yet it only jumped on the victim and not the killer who was supposedly the one being held down in grass per W6. If I were the state I’d put up the slide of the grassless Zimmerman as opposed to the grassy and muddy Martin and ask W6 “are you sure you saw the victim on top of the defendant while the defendant lay in grass?” I know that what happen but if I were a prosecutor on this case I’d pull out all the stops to convict Fogen.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


        W18 saw gz on top at the exact instant of the shot.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

    • Malisha says:

      The State DID know what direction they ran from and that they were running towards the T. And it asked the question. I don’t know what your thing is.

    • Malisha says:

      AND neither side is to be trusted, ever, in any trial. The issue is not whom to trust (among the lawyers) the issue is was this killing a murder or a justifiable homicide. The evidence says it was a murder. And I wouldn’t ever trust BDLR, Guy, Mantei, Corey, West, or O’Mara farther than I could throw Fogen and if I ever saw Fogen on a dark rainy night and I was unarmed I’d run like bloody Hell because he’s a murderer.

      • Jun says:

        I dont think it matters any time of the day, he attacks everyone and then claims it’s the other person’s fault

        This is Fogen Mentality

        Fogen Attacks cops = the cops fault

        Fogen attacks Ex = The Ex’s fault

        Fogen kicks dog = the dog’s fault

        Fogen attacks lady at his bouncer job = the lady’s fault

        Fogen molests and attempts to rape his cousin = Cousin’s fault and she just wants fame and fortune

        Fogen accuses 8 year old boy of stealing bike and terrorizes kid, even though police conclude the kid did not steal bike = kid’s fault for making him feel suspicious

        God forbid this looney tune walk the streets again

    • Tzar says:

      you know what Dennis, this case is now in a court of law an it is day two. isn’t that great?

    • PYorck says:

      I think what is often overlooked when talking about the direction is that – given the location of her home and where GZ and TM ended up – south -> north is the straightforward direction. People running the other direction and being north just moments later would require a more complex explanation. Of course O’Mara wants to emphasize that she never spelled it out before, but it fits her earlier testimony perfectly and shouldn’t be a big surprise.

    • Jun says:


      I do not see where you jump to “the state can not be trusted” from the state asking a question

      The witness on the stand was actually witness 2

      She told Serino early on, she saw a chase towards the T

      That’s why Bernie knew to ask for the direction she witnesses

      The only difference is she said left to right, which is saying the same direction with different words

  47. boyd says:

    Fogen should have thought about what Prison will be like with irritable bowel syndrome. His roomies will not like that.

  48. ladystclaire says:

    @Woow, in reference to your reply to my comment on the previous thread, I agree that the SPD is responsible for a innocent seventeen year old child is gone too soon from this world. you know in some cities/towns, a person is not permitted to call NEN or 911 habitually like this JERK was doing. and each time he called, he had the same script that he used the night of 02/26/12 for each and every one of those calls. I thought it was established that, there wasn’t a lot of crime in that complex but, this Wendy person is telling something different.

    Any ways, Trayvon was not committing any crime and, he wasn’t up to no good. he was just walking home from the store. my GOD it was so heartbreaking to see his body laying there in that manner. I trust and I pray that GOD will work with Fogen, in a manner that only he can do. I also hope that he will be charged with a hate crime by the feds and, this crime most certainly fit the bill as being a hate crime.

    • pat deadder says:

      LadystClaire I think the NEN dispatchers began to make fun of fogen’s calls.Like saying Well I wonder if he’ll call tonight or god it’s him again or what now after all he was a pain in the neck.Many of his calls were ridiculous etc.

  49. boyd says:

    I did not like Selene at all. She had plenty of time to digest what she saw so when FDLE came to her house in March and spent 30 minutes with her, she should have listed everything.

    the facebook ‘likes’ by itself is nothing , OMara had every right to make her look not credible I believe her but she should have told FDLE

    • TheUsualSuspects says:

      I think what happened to Selene is typical of what happens when you discuss things with someone you are close to (her sister) and a year passes. Subconsciously, the other person’s thoughts and statements become your own.

      The defense twisted things as if Selene is a liar. When the sister testifies that SHE saw the standing figures moving a certain direction, the jury will forget all about the Selene misstep.

    • tashatexas77048 says:

      I think the likes are smoke and mirrors and BLDR did a horrible job reminding the jury of this. He did a horrible job on re-cross as he could have made it known that bias could have made her say things that were much more damning to the defense. He also didn’t spend enough time with her and I am once again not impressed with his manner of asking questions. He could have spent far more time getting her to talk about what she meant by “upright.” Why couldn’t she demonstrate what she saw? He could have done a better job of asking how long after the shot was fired did it take her to look outside again. He could have asked if she had seen the person who got shot, fall down. Indeed if Martin backed up and then fell down as Zimmerman rose from a supine position, someone should have seen them change positions and no one did. I got the impression she looked out the window 2 times? First she heard something then saw arms flailing from left to right? When she went to the window and looked out did she say other people were already looking? Then she heard Jon say what he said? What was she witnessing in regards to the flailing arms now? Is she saying both people passed her house on the way to where they eventually fell in the grass? Did she say the person directly across from her was already at the door when she looked out? Wouldn’t that mean a person in her same area would have heard something before they ended up closer to Jons house just like she did? Wouldn’t that mean both of them would have seen the same movement?

      I want to see how the state intends to tie all of the eye witnesses back to W1 but I’m disappointed that I have questions when it was BDLR’s job to tie up all loose ends for the jury.

      • boyd says:

        you right, they have confused the hell out of me.

      • Malisha says:

        that bias could have made her say things that were much more damning to the defense

        That’s argument, not questioning. Believe me, the issue of “witness ‘bias'” is a non-issue but it will be dealt with, in its way (because the real issue is witness credibility) on closing arguments. And believe me, there will be maps and time-lines showing the jury, in closing argument, that what W-1 and W-2 saw was a fight as Trayvon was chased North towards the T and the fight was not to “kill” Fogen but Trayvon’s fight to get AWAY from the crazy man with the gun. John Good will look bad. The real design of the murder of Trayvon Martin will be described in words and pictures and there will not be reasonable doubt about it. But argument does not happen with questions — it happens in the wrap up in the end, where the significant and unassailable portions of each witness’s testimony will be part of a picture revealed.

        Jury selection is not the same, structurally, as the evidentiary phase of the trial. These witnesses are not being questioned to reveal “bias” or their personal habits or anything else; the defense is trying to confuse people about that issue. These witnesses are FACT WITNESSES, not opinion witnesses. Their opinion as to whether the victim or the killer was right or wrong is utterly irrelevant.

        Only because the defense’s position is “this accused citizen should never have been charged” has this become the neon red herring that it is.

      • vickie s. votaw says:

        “I got the impression she looked out the window 2 times? First she heard something then saw arms flailing from left to right? When she went to the window and looked out did she say other people were already looking? Then she heard Jon say what he said? What was she witnessing in regards to the flailing arms now? Is she saying both people passed her house on the way to where they eventually fell in the grass? Did she say the person directly across from her was already at the door when she looked out? Wouldn’t that mean a person in her same area would have heard something before they ended up closer to Jons house just like she did? Wouldn’t that mean both of them would have seen the same movement.”

        What I heard her say was she looked out the little window when she heard the movement, she couldn’t see because it was dark & the view from that window is blocked by hedges or something. She then moved to the sliding glass door. There she saw 2 people standing , with arms flailing, she also saw two other witnesses, one shouted out he was calling the police, she went back to the stove, heard the shot, went back to the window, saw a body lying on the ground & no one else. I don’t know how you heard what you did, what you thought you heard doesn’t make sense IMHO

    • Malisha says:

      Selene would not realize she “should” tell FDLE. People don’t live their lives by what significance their every act has or may have in a court of law run by a tolerant judge with an unscrupulous legal team for a dishonest defense. By that standard, TRAYVON MARTIN should never have communicated freely with his buddies in high school because some day somebody might KILL him and if he wanted his death to be taken seriously by American racists he would have to be perfect at all times and never have made a single “questionable” remark or gesture in his life. Selene always told the truth about what she had seen and heard; she did not ask to be involved in a murder arranged and perpetrated by a madman in her backyard. It’s like DeeDee who did not expect questions about how she RESPONDED to the death of her friend; how can she arrange HER life to be “beyond reproach” when it is unexpectedly picked apart by her friend’s murderer’s unethical advocates?

      • boyd says:

        maybe, I re-listened to her FDLE interview. I’m different than her, that’s all. I would tell the story instead she allowed FDLE to drive the interview just answering the questions. FDLE did not ask her about direction, they asked the sister..

        And then she said they were erect , then she let OMara blow her up, I’m like don’t let him do that to you.

        she’s too passive maybe that;s it.

      • Tee says:

        Was she the best witness no, but not to like her based on what you think you would have done it not right. You can only assume that you would be in the drivers seat, if you’ve never been questioned before by LE and a lawyer you have no idea how you would respond. Lawyers first rule don’t ask a witness a question you don’t know the answer to, so she was never asked it doesn’t mean much!

    • Jun says:

      Selene is witness 2

      She actually did tell Serino

      Only difference is she said “towards the T” instead of “left to right” which is the same direction but in different words

      That’s why the state knew to ask her that

  50. ic2fools says:

    Omar 6/25 interview with Anderson Cooper 360 link

    Talked about west knock knock joke, Frye hearing and Judge Nelson “no, no”. So what now Omar is not only defense counsel but first hand legal analyst after todays’ proceedings? This needs to be stopped he’ll want to do this everyday after court.

    Hopefully Bernie brings this to the courts’ attention, anybody needs to bring this to the courts’ attention.

  51. zhickel says:

    My take on the first two days of trial proper; the defence is throwing out all-and-everything in the hope that some of their statements make it past the prosecution.

    O’Mara and West are going to go down fighting.

    If the prosecution has not done their homework and are not prepared for all eventualities, O’Mara and West may prevail.

    However, I don’t think this will happen. The defence is determined to force the prosecution to make their case; and they will, by being better prepared, in possession of more facts and having impeccable resources at their disposal.

    The defence is a rouge electron. The prosecution is a slow and inexorable train.

  52. gbrbsb says:

    Bernie, West, and Mantei’s course through the trial

    • ay2z says:

      We need one of those courses around here!

    • Malisha says:

      Bernie, GUY and Mantei. Right? 😳

      • gbrbsb says:


        Please please please professor either delete post or change the name ! I was going to put O’Mara and West for Mission Impossible, but changed my mind ‘cos the squirrel does make it.


      • Malisha says:

        Don’t be mortified! No matter who plays “squirrel” the thing is hilarious. I vote that Bernie, Guy and Mantei will get lots of acorns and I predict that West and O’Mara will fall on their skinny behinds somewhere along the way. But I loved the video. 😀

  53. ay2z says:

    Not sure we need to worry about today’s witness, because what she suggests will be backed up by others, no worries.

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @Professor Fred –

      Re Fred’s “The good news today was provided by Diane Smith, a crime scene technician employed by the Sanford Police Department. Using flashlights, she and several police officers visually searched the two sidewalks that intersect each other forming the ‘T.’ They did not find any blood.”

      Tech Smith and others searched by flashlight. There is a chemical solution spray used to detect the presence of blood. Did they go back the next day when the sidewalk was dry and spray E-W at the “T” and then N-S on the dog walk for 60-70 ft. or so?

      From Day One of this crime, I have wanted L.E. to blood-search the concrete where Zimmerman claimed his head was smashed. It would be so very easy to prove he lied.

      When the blood/DNA reports were released, why wasn’t this report released?

      • pat deadder says:

        Idk but I’m sounding like a nag but isn’t the walk where Trayvon was murdered called the dog walk because the deviant told Singleton that he walked through the dogwalk.He changed his story the next day.

      • diary73 says:

        She admitted that they did not use the chemical to search for blood.

        • cielo62 says:

          Diary- I wonder if they used the black lighting that detects blood? Nobody asked and she didn’t volunteer it. But walking around for several HOURS with an entire TEAM of investigators using strong lighting should have revealed something if anything was there.


  54. Jun says:

    To be honest, I skipped over West’s opening. It was too boring. However what i did watch, the jury knows he’s lying, and they have been caught in a few lies now. It’s just the start too.

    • ay2z says:

      The ‘joke’ was purposeful, sure it fell flat, but it made headlines and at the core of it, is the controversy and the ‘placate the masses’ mantra of the defense all along. They did this on purpose, may not have helped West, but he apologized (part of the plan if needed too), the only thing that matters is to make a splash and a point.

      If fogen is acquitted, then the full charge against those who did this to him, will follow and then MOM will go for the immunity.

  55. Jun says:

    I dont feel Selene did that bad today

    I personally feel Omara lost the jury by lying in their opening statements

    The jury saw the photos and now they know the face beating allegations were false

    The jury heard the crime scene tech, that blows away a lot of their lies

    Omara has lost quite a bit of credibility with the jury IMO

    Selene is witness 2 actually guys, and Omara actually lied today

    Witness 2 did tell Serino that she heard the chase and it was towards the T

    Her saying left to right today, is the exact same direction she explained

    I dont know how much weight the jury will give the facebook petition allegations but it sounds like a crock of shit and Omara already lied to them, so, it sounds like petty allegations to me

    All people are different but I do not feel Omara phased her at all to be honest

    IMO Wendy Dorvial and The HOA president were pointless witnesses

    • ay2z says:

      If the state did not bring in Dorval, couldn’t the defense have brought her in to talk about how wonderful fogen was and how etc etc etc (gag)?

      And the HOA guy, isn’t the state laying a foundation for the NW, and about the praises fogen recieved for the stucco’rs capture? Fogen should have done that… he got the praise though. But he saw that the two manual workers did what he wanted to do to make a difference.

      • Nellie Nell says:

        The stucco guys up the anti so GZ felt that the out shined him at his job. That could not be, it will not be and so I have to go out and catch someone so that I can be the hero instead of them stealing his glory. Freaking pig

    • ay2z says:

      Selene did not come across as any type of slick manipulator, She is educated, works in health records (responsible position with a high level of confidentiality) and shse came across well, human if anything, in her actions.

      • boyd says:

        she withheld information for a year in an murder investigation and she thought she had no information for police initially. 3 interviews over 30 days and she just now throws in new stuff

        she just pressed the like on george zimmerman’s facebook. by not telling police everything. FDLE came to her house to speak with her for 40 minutes.

      • vickie s. votaw says:

        “she withheld information for a year in an murder investigation and she thought she had no information for police initially. 3 interviews over 30 days and she just now throws in new stuff”
        No, she did not withhold evidence, she answered every question that cops asked & that defense asked her. Mom tried to imply she withheld info

      • Tzar says:

        boyd says:
        June 26, 2013 at 3:08 am

        she withheld information for a year in an murder investigation and she thought she had no information for police initially. 3 interviews over 30 days and she just now throws in new stuff

        she just pressed the like on george zimmerman’s facebook. by not telling police everything. FDLE came to her house to speak with her for 40 minutes.


    • aussie says:

      Must disagree on that, Jun. Their evidence is what shows GZ as a wannabe, without anyone having to say the word. The NW scheme was his idea, nobody else joined, the HOA wasn’t even too keen, these were the rules he was told (and didn’t keep to).

      The FB petition is beside the point. And was written weeks after she already made a statement, ie the statement was not influenced by the petition or public fuss about the case.

      • crazy1946 says:

        aussie, those who say the president of the HOA added nothing to the trial are possibly wrong. Put your thinking cap on for a moment, he gave a description of the culprit that was caught after breaking into a home in the neighborhood, correct? Now here is the point that occurred to me last night as I attempted to sleep, that description was actually pretty close to one that could be given of Trayvon. It also was brought out that the culprit had lived close to the back gate,( not too far from Mz. Green). Could it be that when the Fogdiot made the comment that he shot “another” person, he actually thought that he had been chasing the culprit from the first burglary? Whoops, he killed the wrong black kid, and suddenly needed a new story to explain his murder and this is what we are hearing (and have heard) the defense telling now…

      • zhickel says:

        Good point crazy. Reminds me of the Derek Bently case, “Let him have it.” We forget to consider alternative readings of the intent of comments.

        With Chad, the first witness, the prosecution started building the map of RTL by showing the proximity of Brandi Green’s house to the back entrance.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      Selena is W1. She mentioned running and movement in the back, long before any of GZ’s statements were available to the public. This was a big big fail on the part of the defense. They knew she had said she heard running feet, but when they deposed Selena, a deposition worth 31 pages of transcription, they failed to ask her if she had an opinion about which direction she thought they were moving.

      • gblock says:

        No, that wasn’t a fail on the part of the defense. Their purpose has not been to get facts, it has been to cast doubt and sow confusion. Selena not including that statement in her deposition allowed them to do that.

    • Malisha says:

      I believe the HOA president was a very important witness because the information came in that nobody was really up in arms about the “victimization” of the neighborhood BUT FOGEN and it was Fogen who wanted to do the whole NW thing, so all of this was Fogen’s little project, not the real necessity to save the world from threats like Trayvon Martin.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      One more thing, the defense will want to rely on earwitness, not eyewitness testimony, to show the struggle went from north to south.

  56. gbrbsb says:

    Thinking about yesterday, isn’t GZ really lucky boy ? A truly stellar part of God’s or nature’s mysterious ways?

    Well, at least MOM & Co must think so because:

    1. None of GZ’s DNA on Trayvon’s hands
    2. None of GZ’s DNA under Trayvon’s fingernails
    3. None of GZ’s DNA on Trayvon’s cuffs
    3. None of GZ’s DNA Trayvon’s hoodie
    4. None of Trayvon’s DNA on GZ’s gun
    5. None of Trayvon’s DNA on GZ’s holster
    6. None of GZ’s blood found on footpaths after lengthy search

    are explained away by MOM & Co as all being a result of the natural phenomena called rain which apparently washed it all away… or was that purified?
    ; -)

    • Jun says:

      The jury also saw close up shots of the hands on scene of trayvon


      • ay2z says:

        His hands looked so youthful and clean. Those photos hit home, as they are the instruments and symbolism of what the killer said were used against him in an aggressor attack to the death.

        Hands of a killer? Let the jury ponder that.

      • gbrbsb says:

        OK jun, I stand corrected, but I took the poetic license for brevity hoping the DNA would stand for everything!

      • ay2z says:

        Those cement ridges, the kind in an LLMPapa video to show how these sidewalks were surfaced as anti-slip, would hold blood in areas, it would not pour off with rain. There would be some caught, probably with tissue from scalp, in the fine rough ridges. And impressions and debris from the concrete would embed microscopically into the wounds. Peroxide wouldn’t necessarily clean it out when it was ‘pounded’ in like someone describes.

      • Jun says:

        I am waiting for the tests done on Fogen’s big ass flashlight

        It’s possible Fogen hit himself with it to frame Trayvon

      • gbrbsb says:

        I was struck by that too, youthful, clean and they didn’t look big or strong or muscular at all. Those are the hands that are supposed to have been used as weapons… the ones with which according to GZ Trayvon was trying to suffocate him with. They didn’t look big enough even. And killing someone or something with a gun is remote, killing someone or something with bare hands is very up close and personal, it takes a callous and cruel psychology that Trayvon just did not have.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Jun, I’m thinking that he did something of that nature and, also with the help from one of the witnesses at the scene. it is truly my belief that either W6 or maybe the other John, assisted him in obtaining those places on his head.

        There is no damn way, that someone would have their head banged on pavement for the length of time Fogen claims to have had done to him, then get up and walk away. for those who buy his wolf tickets, even though they know it’s not humanly possible, for him or anybody to experience such a beating, to not have even as much as a concussion, is a bold face lie and, Mark Oysterman is the one IMO, who wrote this script of falsehoods and, not a hint of common sense between them.

        I find it quite strange that we haven’t heard a sound out of the air marshal and, I really wonder if he has flipped, since we know Fogen’s mentally challenged wife hasn’t. anybody as dumb and stupid as this woman is, should be charged with a crime for being just that.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        He looked so young. I was watching some of the stupid commentary by Bill Schafer. They were talking about how those photos lifted it from the abstract to the real world. That just pissed me off. What is it people think happened? It was a real flesh and blood teenager that was murdered there for no reason. Those are real parents sitting there, who not only had to live through the worst thing possible, losing a child, but then had to suffer through everything that happened afterwards.

      • Tzar says:

        amsterdam1234 says:
        June 26, 2013 at 4:20 am

        He looked so young. I was watching some of the stupid commentary by Bill Schafer. They were talking about how those photos lifted it from the abstract to the real world. That just pissed me off. What is it people think happened? It was a real flesh and blood teenager that was murdered there for no reason. Those are real parents sitting there, who not only had to live through the worst thing possible, losing a child, but then had to suffer through everything that happened afterwards.

        Those media dumb assess live in the abstract and
        they gattdamn create it for fun

  57. ay2z says:

    Lightening up the mood with a little of what the defense tried to lay down today, BS.

  58. RastaGirl says:

    Gosh I just read the report out about DeeDee and her tweets smh Whyyyyyy Whyyy Whyyyyy did she do that! Ugh

  59. fauxmccoy says:

    ebbing and flowing

  60. cielo62 says:

    >^..^< Trial watching cat potato.

  61. ay2z says:

    Knock knock

    Who’s there?


    Fogen WHO?


  62. Tzar says:

    one more for the night professor
    Mantai mention in his argument regarding the admissibility of the calls that a juror had been unduly struck because a document or claim was not vetted and how when they found out nelson said it was too late to un-ring the bell. it sounded like it was someone that the prosecution wanted to keep, anyone remember this?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I think he was citing an example from another case as an argument to not let OM ring the bell and then make a motion to exclude evidence.

  63. diary73 says:

    I am very thankful for this forum. It is very difficult to watch the trial continuously, but everyone’s comments have kept me abreast of much of the details.

    On a different note, I am appalled at the severe doxing that has taken place concerning W8 since her name was revealed. If the pictures and Twitter posts are in fact hers, I wish someone would have counseled her about staying off social media. It saddens me to read the terrible comments from GZ supporters. They are mean-spirited, cruel, and relish in pushing the envelop of racism through their comments.

    I am so mad right now I can kick the wall with my foot that is not quite right from a bunionectomy.

    Goodness, I pray for this young lady.

  64. Tzar says:

    I believe Don West told the jury during his opening statement that Zimmerman’s DNA would have been detected on Trayvon’s clothing, if his clothing had been packaged in paper bags instead of plastic bags.

    Turns out that the clothing was packaged in paper bags

    Professor help me out here
    I know Op. St. are not evidence but can attorneys flat out lie about the evidence in opening statements?

    • Puck says:

      The benefit will come when the prosecution irrefutably shoots the lies down one by one — since these were introduced in West’s opening, the jury will question the defense’s ENTIRE case, and as such everything they’ll present. Once the prosecution rests, is the defense just going to present its nonsense and think it’ll fly, having already been shown false? And with the prosecution on cross?

      This is what it means to give them enough rope to hang themselves with.

    • My Forehead Tho says:

      My same exact question. They knowingly lied several times.

      If there isn’t any consequences for that, there should be

      • Rachael says:

        Unfortunately (or fortunately – depeneding on who you are) there are consequences. The consequences will be that GZ is found guilty.

      • Jun says:

        Well all it shows to the jury is Guy is truthful and Omara and Fogen are already proven liars, and IMO, it sounds like they try to blame others and make dumb excuses, like when they tried to blame Sean the dispatch

        Fogen’s a fucking grown ass adult, I am sure he knows what Sean means when he says “Just let me know if he does anything else” which means just say what he’s doing and when he found out he followed and stalked Trayvon, he said “it was not necessary” and then explained why

        However, Wendy Dorvial and the HOA President were kind of pointless witnesses

    • Malisha says:

      Regrettably, lawyers are “allowed to” lie all the time. So rarely is there any negative consequence that it is like jay-walking. Ever see someone get a ticket for jay-walking? It’s supposed to be forbidden but it’s so common nobody even notices.

      • vickie s. votaw says:

        Police use jaywalking tickets to intimidate people, I was ticketed for jaywalking in Southern California when I was young

    • Jun says:

      They told a horrible knock knock joke at a trial for the murder of a minor

      And now I am sure the ladies can see they are lying too

      And considering they are women, I think Omara looks like a jerk to the ladies on the jury

      • vickie s. votaw says:

        He is extremely condescending , I can’t stand listening to him!

      • pat deadder says:

        I noticed fogen’s reaction to the pictures of Trayvon’s body.He is a deviant.
        fogen seems angry at omara.When omara put his hand on him fogen gave him a dirty look.
        Omara lacks respect for JN.and he always calls LE officers cops and when questioning the officer who tried to save Trayvon he asked why he became a cop.The officer referred to himself as LE when answering.
        Wish Selena had just said yes I’ve formed an opinion since reading Professor L. blog..

    • TheUsualSuspects says:

      I know you asked Fred for a reply, but I, too, was somewhat unsettled by the lies in West’s opening statements.

      Granted, Guy should have given the defense some room to lay out its case, but once it became clear West was giving an argument, the prosecution should have objected to West’s mischaracterization of the evidence. West’s improper argument went on for 2.5 hours. If Guy had objected to it sooner, JN would have sustained. MO’M and West would feel less emboldened.

      I just need the prosecution to wake up and make timely objections. And, when a prosecution witness like Dorval volunteers she found GZ to be meek, it shows the prosecution needs to tighten up its witness control.

      It’s early, though. I think they’ll reign things in by the end of the week.

      • Tzar says:

        you make good points
        I hope you are correct about the prosecution pulling in the reigns

      • Malisha says:

        I have a theory that the prosecution is withholding objections so they don’t look like they’re “hamstringing” the defense. They don’t want to create the misperception that there are real defenses that are being prevented from reaching the jurors’ ears (and eyes) because of an unfair judge and a politically motivated crooked prosecutor’s office kow-towing to the pBa-lack mob.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      The defense team is simply keeping gz’s spun lies SPINNING.

      It is like circus plate-spinning madness!

      I imagine a lot of plates are going to break!

    • Rachael says:

      Remember opening statements are not evidence

  65. trina cosbie says:

    Some people on here having strokes over Selene’s testimony today need to have several seats. My goodness folks its only day 2 & there was no bombshell just because Selene signed or liked a petition.

    • Tzar says:

      She never signed it

      • raiikun says:

        Yes she did. She tried to dodge it so O’Mara showed her the Facebook page and made her read it.

        Underneath the petition title, it did very clearly:

        “Selene signed this petition.”

        Signing it wasn’t as impeaching as the fact she tried to hide it, and was caught.

      • LeaNder says:

        It’s getting as bizarre as this whole case is. If she indeed witnessed something and for whatever reason was not contacted. Or even thought that the others maybe witnessed more but somehow the same she did. Wouldn’t it be obvious to sign the petition? Even more if you were as close to the event and so shocked about it that you decided to move out after?

        • Tzar says:

          I would have no problem with her signing it either
          but that was never established in court, Omara tried to pull a fast one
          anyone who wants to can listen to what she read

          • LeaNder says:

            Tzar, I was wondering why she did give them the chance she did. Had she simply stuck to what she said before, they couldn’t have challenged her the way she did. I saw it coming the moment she said it. I start to understand why prosecution and defense meet the witnesses now much better. Remember Serino’s interview? There it was. It would have been easy to study all the stuff before she took the stand. What I am not completely sure about is, if I would have been able to completely disguise the disgust I feel for both O’Mara and West, especially West. O’Mara is much more obsessed with his surfaces. But even in his case it shows.

            But strictly it is a horrible situation as AA to be in anyway. And that is something I cannot quite judge.

          • Tzar says:

            It takes a few tries as a witness to understand the power of I don’t know and I don’t remember when it is the actual truth
            -do not rack your brains
            -do not invent memories
            -do not speak out of your knowledge

            if you don’t remember, say you don’t remember

            look at the professional testifiers like Smith and Raymondo (sp), they do not hesitate to say, “i don’t that”

            this i where they failed her in her prep

            I had to go through a series of depositions
            by the 3rd one my lawyer gave me this pep talk summed up above.
            and it set me straight
            cut my deposition time by 3/4

          • LeaNder says:

            Tzar I wish someone had advised DD, I surely hope she had a lawyer. Honestly listen to this, what do you hear.

            It’s behind Jera’s “here” link. It feels they made her confess to something she never said. But she seems helpless against the machinations.

          • Tzar says:

            I hear her say “he heard me say what are you talking about”:
            it seems she was interjecting her comment in the middle

          • LeaNder says:

            not what I hear, Besides I think the last two words belong to what follows. I’ll look for the whole tape.

          • Tzar says:

            what do you hear?

            I think her testimony is clear today and I believe the state ca shore it up

          • LeaNder says:

            What do I hear?

            complete ABC audio file

            They are obsessed with this tape since they would love to prove that Crump coached DD, but since there is no evidence for that, now they try it with DD lies. Again I do not hear: “”What are you talking about” And I have no idea how they manage to convince themselves to hear her say it.

            about 3:19

            Trayvon ?then? say: What you are following me for? This man he only say: What are you doing there (the short phrase I don’t quite get, only a distinct “here/hear”)

            She seems to sometimes speak fast and does not articulate all the syllables, the phonemes i get beyond the hear/here does not help me to add up the complete phrase. I could only guess, I spare you the two possible variations that come to mind.

            The first version was the passage Jera used it feels, they seem to argue that the later version is change, here the last test before the official Crump tape: 4:00.

            Crump: you know like when you told Mr. Tracy and Ms. Sybrina,when you say, he loud was like, What you doing a’ here and stuff.

            DD: Yeh, and then ..

            Crump: Ahem*, go ahead

            DD: The man comes and What you doing around here. Trayvon (?) come ask him(?) What are you following me for? And the man, what are you doing around here, ( here again another “echo here/hear” plus incomplete syllables that don’t help me to fastly connect the diverse phonemes I hear up to the complete short phrase that follows)

            Concerning my comment in paranthesis, I think Crump is aware that she sometimes talks so fast that she, what we call here, swallows up syllables that makes it hard to understand. You can only guess. That is why he asks her to talk slowly it feels. I could in this passage just as in the first only guess what exactly follows, it is definitively not what Fogen claims he said.

            What I call echo here/hear above, reminds me very much of the passage I don’t quite get in the first example. Maybe a specialist on AA vernacular, Haitian influences via the mother? could tell us more.

            * I could only transcribe this ahem sound, definitively not a clearing of the throat sound, in phonemes or in phonetic alphabet, I have no idea how you would spell it.

            Maybe I am wrong and this is not at all what the brouhaha was about. I missed a passage of West’s cross due to supper.

          • Tzar says:

            BDLR needs to clean that up on redirect

      • raiikun says:

        Yes, it was what she read.

        Screenshots of the Facebook page are up now too, though she took the Facebook page down as soon as she got home from court.

        • Tzar says:

          sorry don’t trust screen shots
          AND NO SHE DID NOT
          I know what I heard (near the 16:00 mark)
          She read the generic heading that comes with all these links that people post on facebook : “PROSECUTE THE KILLER OF OUR SON, 17YO TRAYVON, SIGN THE PETITION”

      • raiikun says:

        And to be clear, this is what O’Mara had her read:

        • Tzar says:

          did you notice that the affirmative part of the alleged facebook post in your screen cap was not actually read in court
          do you really think O’Mara would not nail that don if it was real?
          16 minute mark

      • raiikun says:

        Okay, if you don’t trust screenshots to show she really signed the petition, here is her page that shows she did.

        • Tzar says:

          sorry dude there is no way to authenticate that
          but even more hilarious is that it shows that she recruited someone to sign the page yesterday

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @tzar — i did not even consider that comment worthy of reading, clicking or responding to — but thanks for the great catch!

      • concernedczen says:

        Raikun, get your facts straight. Selene did not sign the petition, she LIKED it on her facebook page.

        As soon as she got on the stand, I googled her and looked at her facebook page. The liking of the petition was the first thing I saw, so it was obvious the defense would bring that up.

        What O’Mara did, however, was lie. He asked her about liking it and then he asked her again about signing it when he knew that he was referring to the same thing. She liked the page on her facebook but never signed the petition. Go search the petition if you must, but get your facts straight.

    • Xena says:

      Reminds me of a line in the movie “A Time To Kill.” Selene should have told O’Mara, “Yeah I signed the petition, and I hope he rots in hell.”

      • Tee says:

        That made me laugh thanks Xena.

        • Xena says:

          @Tee. Observed a case in court once — divorce. The wife claimed that her husband abandoned her, closed their bank account, and she was unemployed. She wanted alimony.

          The husband earlier alleged that his wife was living with a man. His attorney asked her, “Are you living with a man?” The wife replied “Yes.” The attorney’s eyes brightened up and she thought she was going in for the kill. She asked, “What is his relationship to you?” The wife answered, “Our adult son. That’s who I moved in with after my spouse abandoned me. It was that or be homeless.”

          The attorney turned beet red, looked over at the husband with a scrawl, turned to the judge and said, “No further questions.”

          There are times to agree quickly with thine adversary. 🙂

      • Shari says:

        That movie was one of my favorites. As a child I watched Eyes on the Prize and X with my parents. I’m sure they wonder what happened to me. That movie really effected me and I was so young I really couldn’t wrap my mind around a hate so strong. Wow. I could ramble on forever but I must sleep.

      • abbyj says:

        X2, Xena. Good.

      • CherokeeNative says:

        Exactly Exena. Had it been me, I would have said, “Yes, I signed it – after witnessing what I witnessed and hearing the lies George was telling about what happened, I believed the case should go before a court of law and I still do.”

        If anything, I tend to think O’Mara showed that he is a horse’s ass to the jurors and didn’t make much of an impression in trying to impeach her.

        • Xena says:

          @CherokeeNative. Had it been me, I would have said, “Yes, I signed it – after witnessing what I witnessed and hearing the lies George was telling about what happened, I believed the case should go before a court of law and I still do.”


          btw, got your invite to join Twitter. My handle as well as the name of my blog are already taken. Add to that I don’t know how to navigate Twitter and right now, have too many other irons in the fire to learn as I go. But, thanks for the invite.

    • Mirre says:

      The bombshell for me was that she saw them standing.

    • boyd says:

      the facebook crap was not my concern. it’s the jury and what they believed they heard yesterday,

    • Nellie Nell says:

      If I had witnessed the running and the standing fight going in the direction of the T (which she did tell investigators), I would have started the petition and not just signed it! I am just at a lost why the state did not focus more on the fact that the arms were not seen on the ground but were standing and 15 seconds later, the kid lay dead.

      I am also confused why the transcripts that she was handed did not include what was published in the previous thread where she clearly said the movement was going towards the T when talking to Det Serino.

  66. MichelleO says:

    Hello, Professor. Thank you for your insightful and learned input.

  67. Trained Observer says:

    Just finished watching Selene’s testimony again. Most noticeable the second time around is the condescending manner alternated with sarcasm in which MOM addresses her, as if she’s a not too bright child. Selene is a bit of an enigma, but I think she’s smarter than MOM.

    Another question: Why did she have to come forward at a community meeting to declare what she’d heard/seen? Given proximity of her home to the killing site, why did not the Sanford PD come knocking on her door that night or the next day? Same for Wolfie’s office, if they were “investigating”?

    • Tzar says:

      Why did she have to come forward at a community meeting to declare what she’d heard/seen?

      off the record
      social control

      • Malisha says:

        Many witnesses found the police refractory to their attempts to give them information about what happened.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      They don’t want to know what she saw and don’t want anyone else to know it either.

    • Girlp says:

      There were others who were ignored or not approached. Some called SPD and they refused to take their statement or were told it was self-defense…some witnesses statements were changed to fit self defense or they were told to say it was self-defense.

  68. Dave says:

    Although Professor Leatherman is too classy a guy to push the issue, I think that this would be a particularly good time to click on the DONATE button at the top of the page.

  69. Judy75201 says:

    “I believe Don West told the jury during his opening statement that Zimmerman’s DNA would have been detected on Trayvon’s clothing, if his clothing had been packaged in paper bags instead of plastic bags.”

    A clear attempt at reasonable doubt. 🙂

    • PiranhaMom says:


      West is an asshole.

      Did not even read the FDLE documents released to the public September 22 last year. – which most of us here read long ago.

      The analysis request on all Martin and Zimmerman clothing submitted to FDLE on 3/20/12 from Chris Serino/Sanford PD listed the individual articles by ID# (“Item Number” – first column) and in the second column, under “Package” each is listed as contained in a “sealed brown paper bag.”

      This was released with the FDLE Document Dump on September 22, 2012.

      You can access this at Axiom Amnesia. Check out page 4.

  70. unabogie says:

    Or second.

  71. unabogie says:


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