Don West is losing it in Zimmerman trial

Friday, June 21, 3013

Good morning:

Today is the Summer Solstice, the first day of Summer and the longest day of the year in the northern hemisphere.

I write today to express my concern about Don West. He is disintegrating before our eyes. As an empathetic and compassionate human being who knows what it’s like to try a big case with a client’s life on the line, I know that the pressure and stress of this case is nothing right now compared to what it is going to be in a few weeks when we get to closing arguments and the jury begins to deliberate on a verdict. I fear Don West may not survive this trial.

If you have any doubt about that, please watch this video of yesterday’s Frye hearing when he loses it while cross examining the State’s expert, Tom Owen.

To set the stage, West provided a copy of a document to his expert, Dr. James L. Wayman. He told Dr. Wayman that the document was Tom Owen’s report. Dr. Wayman ridiculed the report as incomprehensible and unprofessional when he testified at the Frye hearing on June 17th.

Turns out that it was not Tom Owen’s report. Mr. Owen testified yesterday that he had never seen the document and did not know what it was.

That is really shocking and inexcusable in any case.

Even though he had known for several days that Judge Nelson would hear final arguments in the Frye hearing after Tom Owen concluded his testimony, West did not prepare a written closing argument. Instead, he gave a rambling mess of an argument in which he constantly repeated himself until he ran out of things to say.

During the argument, he was jacked up on nicotine from chewing tobacco and swallowing the juice. You could see him swallowing, moving the plug around with his tongue and parking it between his cheek and gum.

He never addressed the State’s two central arguments that (1) the methodologies used by the State’s experts have been used for many years and are neither novel nor new and (2) it is a lot easier to exclude a known individual as the source of a recorded scream recorded than it is to match the scream to a specific individual.

He also failed to discuss the Florida cases regarding the Frye rule.

This is substandard performance and really not acceptable.

I have been observing as well as listening to him carefully. Even though I do not know him and cannot compare his conduct today to his conduct in the past, I can report that he appears to be deteriorating.

I am concerned about his physical as well as his mental health. The current pressure and stress is going to increase exponentially starting with opening statements on Monday morning.

As lead counsel, Mark O’Mara needs to do something.

George Zimmerman’s right to a fair trial is being compromised.

Here’s the link to the livestream coverage.

http://www.nbcnews.com/video/nbcnews.com/52117880/

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901 Responses to Don West is losing it in Zimmerman trial

  1. ay2z says:

    May I suggest a subtitle to go with??

    ‘Don West is Loosing it in Zimmerman Trial: A West side Story

  2. Leisa says:

    Question folks. Law says X is inadmissable evidence. If state makes a statement in opening contrary to X, does this allow defense to then introduce X?

  3. colin black says:

    In the Scots venicular to be leathered or get leathered or to give some one a Leathering is to give them a dam good thrashing.
    Or bad thrashing if your the recipitent as in I got leathered.

  4. Leisa says:

    Here is a link to the May 28, 2013 hearing JN ruled on Motions in Kimine.

  5. Big Willie says:

    Here’s proof Don West is putting on an act when he talks real slow!

    • Two sides to a story says:

      He looked a lot healthier last year, or is it just me?

    • Dave says:

      He was talking like a living human being during jury selection and then slowed down again for the Frye hearing

      • ic2fools says:

        Wow, West does not look any different now than he did then. Speech is clear and concise, truly does appear West is putting on an act in his latest court appearances. hopefully it soon will be revealed either he has health issues or he is just perpetrating a fraud.

  6. IMback says:

    Why can’t Judge Nelson ask a judge at the DCA what to do? Are any other judge for that matter..thats judicially on her level?

  7. While he works on the post, here is a Random Out of the Blue, Because I Can:

  8. Sophia33 says:

    So the state’s case is greatly weakened if they just can’t play those interviews in court. Why would they box themselves in like this?

    • Malisha says:

      The State does not NEED those interviews to win its case in main. Once the defendant puts on a case for self-defense, everything that has the possibility of REBUTTING the claim of self-defense is automatically admissible and comes in. BOOM.

      • Sophia33 says:

        But doesn’t the state need to prove that it wasn’t self-defense?

        • cielo62 says:

          Sophia~ imagine what the story is now, WITHOUT any of gz fairy tales. Trayvon was walking home, talking to his girlfriend. He says a creepy looking guy is following him and he’s afraid. He runs away (even gz agrees that “shit, he’s running). Several minutes later there’s a 911 call, you can hear screaming that ends abruptly with a gunshot. You got the shooter admitting he did the fatal shooting. The forensics show the trajectory of the bullet, the location of the all the evidence and the condition of Trayvon’s body. gz’s recorded NEN call includes angry and prejudicial statements about punks, assholes that always get away, he’s running, call me when he gets here. The recorded medical report includes compression injuries as well as one bullet hole straight into the heart. Based on THAT ALONE, can you convict for Murder 2? Yes, the ill will and malice are in the NEN call and the compression injuries. The lack of any additional injuries show no fighting at all. UNLESS GZ TALKS AND EXPLAINS HOW IT WAS SELF DEFENSE, then the prosecution only has to produce what it has. Leave ALL of gzs comments OUT of it. The defense is trying to get his claim that it was self-defense in as a exclusion to the hearsay rule, where something is said “in the heat of the moment.” SUPPOSEDLY when gz says to a neighbor, one of the 1st witnesses, “he was bashing my head in, I had to shoot” is such an exclusion. THEY want to introduce the concept for self defense but in a way that protects gz from cross examination. Nope, I don’t see that getting in. He already HAD his story ready; that exclamation is self-serving ONLY. It was premeditated and planned like a script. NOT exclamatory, heat-of-the-moment blurtings. Judge Nelson already has ruled on this; they are trying YET AGAIN to get it admitted THEIR way.

          ________________________________

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Also the evidence of contrivance is legion. The claimed attack would have happened while both subjects were still on their respective calls.
            gz with the NEN call and Trayvon with DD.

            gz’s actions after the shot are nothing more than silly contrivances, designed to explain away his perceived need to rearrange the evidence by making further and immediate physical contact with his claimed lethal assaulter. He claims those strange actions were necessary, because the victim was cursing and moving around. But the medical evaluation will say otherwise.

            Ever try to talk after some liquid has “gone down the wrong pipe”? Now try to imagine how it would feel to try to speak, after a lung had been punctured. With a ruined heart no longer functioning and a damaged lung, the ability to talk would be long gone, replaced by mere ineffective muscle spasms if anything at all.

            While gz’s claimed fear of further attack, by a trained gun handler in full control of his weapon and a trained self defense subject, would know that the best defense would be to move beyond the subjects reach and keep his weapon trained on him. Thus, the only reason he would wish to make further contact with the body, would be to rearrange the evidence, in some way, or to be certain that there was no other unexplained evidence, that should be included in his tale.
            For example, if Trayvon had a knife or some other weapon, gz would want to include that in his tale, rather than have it be discovered later as unused.

      • Sophia33 says:

        O.K. I trust you all. Thanks. I am clearly not understanding something. Thanks Malisha.

    • cielo62 says:

      Sophia~ No the state’s case is very strong. What they have done is FORCE gz to take the stand and claim self defense. And THEN the video tapes will contradict each other and cast doubt on his entire story(ies).

      ________________________________

      • Sophia33 says:

        But if the judge grants the defenses new motion then they will be boxed in and not be able to show the inconsistencies of the statements. Or am I just missing something?

      • Nellie Nell says:

        Ewwww weeeeeee, I can’t wait til Monday! Been waiting too long for justice for this family.

        Thank you guys, your knowledge is unmatched which helps me to understand what is going on. It also brings me tons of hope for the outcome I so desire!

      • Malisha says:

        Sophia — the State is not boxed in. Not to worry.

      • Nef05 says:

        @Sophia33 – If I’m reading your posts correctly, I think what you might be missing is that the state can enter the statements anytime they chose, therefore they have the luxury of doing it when it most benefits their case,and that would be on rebuttal. The defense on the other hand, does not have any luxuries, because they cannot introduce the statements, at any time, unless the prosecution has done so first. Which is exactly why the prosecution does not want to enter them “first”, to make fogen testify.

        This motion by the defense is an attempt to get around that rule, by calling fogen’s statements something they are not – “res gestae”. I believe Crane-Station mentioned the Professor will shortly put up an article on it. Hope this helps, a little…

      • Sophia33 says:

        Cielo:

        Thank you for the detailed explanation. I think I get it now.

        • cielo62 says:

          Sophia- you’re welcome. I’m sure it’ll get clearer as the trial strategy progresses. It took awhile but it makes sense to force GZ to have to explain himself and cross examine any story he tells.

          FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

    • The State is not boxed in at all.

      The defense cannot introduce the defendant’s statements because they are hearsay and the State has no reason to introduce any of his statements claiming self-defense.

      That means the defendant has to testify that he killed Trayvon in self-defense or the jury won’t hear any evidence of self-defense, the jury will not be instructed on self-defense, and the prosecution won’t have to disprove something that did not happen.

      Therefore, the defense is boxed in.

      Make sense now?

    • willisnewton says:

      The states case is easy. Dead body over here. Gun owner over there. Prosecution rests.

      Then when defense TRIES to assert what happened was not murder THEN they introduce GZs statements to SPD and a slew if other things. But to assert self defense GZ has to do so by taking the stand. Get it?

      This is what we’ve been calling the KISS prosecution strategy, for the “keep it simple, stupid.”

      • Sophia33 says:

        I see. Thank you Willis.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        The defense wants to imply self defense, rather than have the defendant state it. But, his plea of not guilty already implies self defense. Clearly, if he could be asked to kneel down for a photograph, with his gun still in his hand, in the dark by a stranger, he could not have been excited at all.

  9. Pre-Trial Motions Scorecard:

    Defense: 0

    State: 22

    *rimshot*

    • Malisha says:

      Pre-Trial Motions descriptors:

      Defense motions with merit filed: 0
      Defense motions without merit filed: (who’s counting?)
      State motions without merit filed: cannot find any
      State motions with merit filed: 22

      HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!

      Oh — and:

      Lawsuits about case brought by Fogen settled or won: 0
      Lawsuits brought by family of the victim
      favorably settled before they were even filed: 1

      HA HA HA HA HA!!!

  10. Malisha says:

    So, their wanting to get “res gestae” statements into the trial makes me think that in fact they do NOT intend to put Fogen on the stand. Professor, do you agree with this guess?

    • Sophia33 says:

      Well O’Mara said that he had no intention to put Zimmerman on the stand.

      However, I am confused as to why the state doesn’t want the video interviews included in the case presentation. The level of inconsistencies wouldn’t that help them.

      • Dave says:

        In the video interviews, the defendant claims he was acting in self defense. If the prosecution don’t use those interviews in their case in chief, the only way to assert a self dfense claim would be for the defendant to testify (and of course undergo cross examination). If the defendant testifies, the prosecution can introduce the interviews in rebuttal to show the inconsidtencies in the killer’s various accounts.

      • Judy75201 says:

        I subscribe to Cielo’s comment, Dave. Thanks!

      • Dave says:

        You’re welcome. Sorry for all the spelling errors.

    • Sleuth says:

      @Malisha

      I thought because his claim was self-defense, which I thought was an affirmative, he had to testify, or his disaster of a legal team had to prove it was.

      Is that how it goes?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        It’s my understanding that only in a self-defense / SYG hearing that the defendant must testify. At trial, the State has to prove M2 and the defendant does not have to testify.

      • Malisha says:

        I sure hope so.
        They can’t just show a movie in which someone defends himself and call it “Exhibit A” and then tell the jury, “If you liked that movie, acquit!”

      • Dave says:

        The judge will not instruct the jury to consider this a case of “justifiable use of deadly force” (self defense) unless evidence is presented that the defendant was in “reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm” and it was reasonably necessary to use deadly force to prevent it. Since there were, apparently, no eyewitnesses or video of the shooting, he will have to testify if he wants to assert that claim.

      • bettykath says:

        another 2 cents. The prosecution could, if it’s not paying attention, enter an interview or a video of the defendant claiming self-defense, or ask a question of a witness that opens the door to the defense cross-examining on claim of self-defense. I think that’s what MOM was referring to when he said that they could make the case for self-defense without the defendant testifying. After seeing the state attorneys in action so far, I don’t think that will happen.

      • bettykath says:

        another possibility, call a witness to claim that fogen was flat on his back receiving MMA blows from a crazed thug who was straddling him.

      • Sleuth says:

        @TSTAS

        That was also my understanding. I’ve always been pretty clear on what the State’s burden is, but not so much when it comes to the defense.

        I thought an affirmative defense allows the defendant to mitigate his liability in the event of any civil actions, not sure though.

        I do know he has a civil action pending against him by the former security company.

      • Sleuth says:

        @Dave

        So, based on what you’re saying, is his an affirmative defense?

      • Dave says:

        It is an affirmative defense only if he introduces evidence to prove it

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Sleuth, I guess everyone else is talking about defense strategy to counter whatever the State presents. That’s a murky area for me. I can see that the defense presents counter witnesses and experts that counter the state’s experts, but anything else is murky for me.

        It’s my understanding that because Fogen doesn’t have to testify at trial, that he’s not presenting an affirmative defense as his defense team would in an SYG hearing. His legal team will refute the state’s story line, trying to create enough doubt about the M2 charge that the jury cannot find Fogen guilty. At opening statements, the prosecution presents their story line and the defense presents the story line we’ve already heard Fogen tell in various forms.

        This is the first time I’ve followed a case, so I’m probably out to lunch!

      • Sleuth says:

        @Dave

        By “Dave”, I think I’ve finally got it! 🙂

        Thanks.

      • Sleuth says:

        @TSTAS

        I think I’ve got a better understanding. You’ve done a wonderful job explaining all of this, thank you.

        I just can’t picture him sitting there like a “potted plant” for 2-4 weeks keeping his trap close.

      • towerflower says:

        TwoSides, MOM gave an interview to HLN awhile ago where he said their case and evidence was so strong that Z didn’t need to take the stand in their SYG…….this was right before he told JN there would be no pretrial SYG. He has also said after that, that Z is looking forward to tell his side…..washy washy.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          As I understand it the judge will need to look at the complete set of circumstances surrounding these statements, to determine if they qualify as “excited utterances” or not.

          The facts show that gz did not act like a person who had been engaged in mortal combat, immediately following the shot. He acted like a person who was cool and collected enough to begin altering the evidence, and searching for weapons he could add to his story, as opposed to having them be discovered as unused.

          A person who had just survived an attack they believed might take their life would not be concerned with such minor details as what the victim had in his possession, he’d be perfectly willing to let the police find that out. Most especially if he had already uttered that he did not think his shot had killed the victim.

          Although he claims that the victim was still moving about and cursing, he doesn’t withdraw from the body and keep his distance, thereby defending his firearm from being taken. Most likely such a person would step back and hold the subject at gunpoint, secure in the knowledge that he could fire again, if the need should arise, before the subject could attack again. He would clearly be too shaken to be concerned about searching the victim or trying to discover his possessions. Only someone in “cover up mode” would do such a thing as alter the evidence and search the body.

          Finally none of his claims, made immediately after the shooting can be confirmed. More than likely, since people are unable to speak, when the lungs are even subjected to minor distress (like ingesting liquids) clearly a puncture lung is not going to let a person say anything at all. Since his only focus and concern would be on catching his next breath. Which clearly puts gz in “contrivance formulation” and “cover up mode”, such that there are no “excited utterances” that are not contrived.

          The State’s motion should therefore be granted.

    • Nef05 says:

      @Malisha – I have an extended question about this, if you or the others have some insight, you might share.

      Can Gilbreath’s testimony, under oath (first bond hearing), where O’Mara basically walks him through the murder (the portions “they” post as “proof” the state has no evidence), be entered, in any way, to accomplish the same goal of getting self defense before the jury without fogen testifying? Can O’Mara question Gilbreath (again) about the questions he answered under oath, and use that?

      Since any question about fogen’s statement is hearsay, I’m referring to this type of question that O’Mara could try to use to establish reasonable doubt.

      O’MARA: Any evidence that conflicts any eyewitnesses, anything that conflicts with the contention that Mr. Martin assaulted first?

      For refresher (I don’t want to paste all the relevant portions in a super long post), if anyone would like to remind themselves what he said.

      http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html

      • Nef05 says:

        I should not have said “get self defense before the jury”. What I meant was, can it be used to undermine the prosecution’s case, so as to create reasonable doubt. I got my focus wrong – sorry.

    • Rachael says:

      Breathing hard but his vital signs (including respirations) reverted to normal by the time paramedics got there?

    • Fred is preparing a post on this.

      me: Did you see this, that West filed?

      Fred: Yes

      me: And?

      Fred: It’s bullshit.

      Also in the news: Nikko, our parrot, is refusing to eat again, because the pot sticker is in his bird dish, and not in Fred’s dish. This is Nikko’s way of getting Fred to have dinner with him.

      #LeatherheadNuthouse <——All a y'all Trolls, listen up. We owned it and now we be wearing it like a Badge!

      • cielo62 says:

        Crane~ that man of yours has a way with words, don’t he?  🙂

        ________________________________

      • cielo62 says:

        WE ARE THE PEOPLE OF THE LEATHER! Own it!

        ________________________________

        • Xena says:

          (At the tune of the old Dr. Pepper Commercial)

          I’m a Leatherhead
          You’re a Leatherhead
          She’s a Leatherhead
          Wouldn’t you like to be a Leatherhead too?
          (All together now)
          Be a Leatherhead
          You should be a Leatherhead.

      • Xena says:

        😦 Poor Nikko. Better be careful or Nikko might poop on his head. LOL!!

      • ic2fools says:

        @Crane just read West Motion, is this why he wanted Judge Deborah home fax? Doesn’t it have to be filed with the Court before she reads it?

        Darn thing read like a bits and pieces taken from each of fogens ever evolving statements. ouch that hurt!

        I see he cites case law but does not clearly explain why and how it applies.

        Count me in the Leather crew!
        🙂

        • You’re in and…he is just about finished- he did have to review the cited case law on this first.

          We have discussed ‘excited utterance’ before, and my take was, it is more something that happens during the unfolding of an event…statements blurted out in excitement while something is happening.

          For example, someone on the phone during a 911 call suddenly exclaiming, “He’s got a gun! Oh my God and he’s chasing me…”

          -something like that, although I will have to read the post.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        So THAT:S what West was blubbering about in court yesterday and this morning.

        Not very impressive.

        Leather up! : D

        • LOL, and BTW, did I leave my riding crop in here?

          (h/t KrisAinTX, who left that wonderful random comment in one of my threads. I ripped it off, straight from him)

      • ic2fools says:

        @Crane

        Cool beans, I’m in!

        Darn it I get it West has health issues effecting his mental capacity and chew juice dependency. But what he is doing is confusing and wasteful. As co-counsel doesn’t he have to have O’mara head counsel approval before releasing that written statement called a motion? How many times is it now O’mara has left West unsupervised? What the heck they both need supervision. Judge Deborah has got her hands full. Each and everytime she has to explain to them the rules like its their first time in criminal proceedings.

        Just like today, West after the fact trying to entered evidence he should have a few days ago.

        I’m still reeling he asked for Judge Deborah home fax number. I could see her containing herself from absolutely screaming, she handled it well and got the heck out of there.

        Really looking forward to reading Professors post about West written statement. I know there are errors it must be that certificate of service just don’t read right either.

        • If I were that judge I’d be half tempted to get some supervision for the both of them, on concrete over at the county jail. But sigh, well…I’m prolly too mean to be a judge!

          • ic2fools says:

            @Crane

            Same here, Judge Deborah has great restraint dealing with West and O’mara. Goodness she has plenty evidence of their actions in and out court to Sanction those two. Point is will she be able to hold on, ’cause yesterday she was about to pop her cork with West. ‘Please listen to me’. Judge Deborah past reached her limit with them.

            You know West had the audacity to ask for her home fax. By law doesn’t any and all paperwork such as that to the Court need to be filed before she receives it? Sneaky West, maybe pulling a fast one giving the impression he has health issues to get her sympathy. Hopefully it will be revealed soon if he is perpetrating a fraud or truly is ill.

            With that said, I’m getting the defense team only defense is to misguide using distracting annoying tactics to get negative response from Judge Deborah, purposely to recuse her.

        • On my last comment about jail, I mean seriously. Chewing tobacco? Why not just yank down the pants and pee, right there in open court?

          • fauxmccoy says:

            crane says

            On my last comment about jail, I mean seriously. Chewing tobacco? Why not just yank down the pants and pee, right there in open court?

            crane, you just reminded me of a family nightmare. back in the 60s, my ever loving, bi-polar, cpa IRS agent dad went to an office christmas party with my mom. he did not like crowds, parties or the like and tended to self medicate with kentucky’s finest.

            apparently, he got loaded enough to tell a joke and the only one he could remember was ‘hey, what does a one eared elelphant look like?’. you got it, he turned one pocket inside out, unzipped his pants, and unleased what should have stayed in his pants.

            i do not recall my folks ever attending any more office parties. (and people think accountants are dull, heh!)

          • Oh bless his heart, fauxmccoy. Thing is, that was a party, so it can be chalked up as a humorous party event. But Mr. West is in open court being disrespectful , at least as I see it. I don’t even have a problem with people chewing tobacco in their seats, because the sessions are so long, but when a lawyer gets up and addresses the court, I believe it is not okay to be chewing anything, including gum, for that matter. At the very least it is distracting and it appears unprofessional.

            BTW Did you ever read The Glass Castle? That is my favorite memoir ever.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @crane

            have not read ‘the glass castle’ but will check it out with your recommendation.

            and yes, i do think west’s public nic fits are on the crass side.

    • cielo62 says:

      Crane~ to whit the Honorable Judge Nelson will say (AGAIN) DENIED!!

      In Houston, we recently (within the last year) had a guy, Raul Rodriguez, devise a murder of his neighbor where he called, videotaped and used every known buzzword in the SYG handbook to justify shooting his neighbor. ON THE PHONE to 911 he said “I fear for my life! I’m standing my ground here!” which “could” be a hearsay exception based on the fact that it was said DURING the commission of the shooting. It was used to convict him. 40 years to life. HOW can something said AFTER THE FACT be considered “in the heat” of, considering the entire episode spanned several minutes? Honestly, it does NOT matter whether this gets admitted or not; the forensic evidence doesn’t support a head bashing of any kind. I don’t see the advantage to the defense.

      ________________________________

      • Xena says:

        Well, that “he was beating me up and I shot him” is not to GZ’s benefit. Reasonable people do not shoot others in the heart just because they are getting beat up.

      • Romaine says:

        where did the staggering come in?

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        The motion is non-serious and merely manipulative. Omar will seek to use the imprimatur of the court as a gateway to: “Oops!” – Bring in bell ringing hearsay, “by mistake”. Then have a contentious sidebar, long enough for the jurors to forget that an objection was made, or even what it was about, while they internalize the innuendo. So then, that’s the “mirror”, now look forward to the smoke!

    • Sleuth says:

      @Crane

      And what’s up with this favorite words of theirs, “Shot, Shooting”? Never preceded by the word “DEADLY”.

      Didn’t they read the headlines, or get the memo that said their sociopathic client MURDERED, not shot, Trayvon Martin.

      They just keep making up more shyte as they go along. That’s just one of the many reasons their client is going to Statesville.

      Darn shame, trying to perpetrate another fraud on Lady Justice.

      • Plus, did you sort of notice how W13’s account um….didn’t/couldn’t have happened that way?

      • Malisha says:

        Junior also did NOT like his brother to be called “the gunman” or “the shooter.”

        Hmm. Let’s see. What was he? The armed marauder? The deluded weapon-wielder? The bullet originator? The Afro-Peruvian Terminator?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Jr. blocked me on Twitter when he was railing about how Trayvon shouldn’t be called a victim of a shooting and I defined homicide victim for him, LOL!

    • kllypyn says:

      He should also know that those statements are also lies.

    • Judy75201 says:

      Fogen asked witness 13 if Fogen was bleeding? HAHAHAHAHAHA. Needed to make sure, ya know.

      • Absurd. The whole goddamn thing. True story: I was in a traumatic accident in 2004. I fell, 25-30 feet. Broke both legs and my back (well, L-1 burst plus R calcaneous crushed, L fibula, but it was the sprain in the L that was worse than the fracture). I remember screaming, “My legs, my legs, my legs…help me, my legs my legs…”

        It never even once crossed my mind throughout the entire ordeal, to ask anybody, at any time, any where, if there was blood on me. It simply never even occurred to me.

        Am I bleeding? <— not a question a trauma pt would ask.

        What utter self-serving nonsense.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          crane — so sorry to hear of your accident. that’s the kind of stuff that although it may heal, it’s never right again.

          • Well, you are right about that, that’s for real sure. There was really only one good thing that came out of it. I had an outstanding orthopedic surgeon, who has published and is well-known in the area of calcaneous fractures. (Heel bone) It was an 8 1/2 hour surgery and he really did a great job. True the ankle is not the same, but it is as good as is can be.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        If he was beaten to the point of wearing diapers he’d be sitting there cross-eyed on the ground trying to get his bearings, not standing up, holstering his weapon, or asking am I bleeding or will you call my wife for me. What a dweeb.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Judy75201, he did indeed ask one of the witnesses “am I bleeding,” I guess he had to make damn sure that he conked himself in the head good enough to draw blood. this lying B*****D will hopefully go down by his very own mouth and hands.

        That horseshoe impression on his head, didn’t come from any head banging on concrete. that never happened and, he knows it didn’t.

        • Xena says:

          @ladystclaire.

          I guess he had to make damn sure that he conked himself in the head good enough to draw blood. this lying B*****D will hopefully go down by his very own mouth and hands.

          The following raises the same question about GZ’s head boo-boo’s and his gun.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I’m just going to speculate here, but that blood with the rivulets on the back of his head, someone has suggested it looks as if it were poured on. If so, that would make it a very good fit with the stain on Jon’s garage door frame. Trying to work quickly in the dark, one could expect mistakes to be made.

          I still don’t see how that little six inch long flashlight has the resonance to make that knocking sound gz claims. At that short length the metal would be too stiff and the chamber of the tube, just to small to resonate like that. He has to be hitting something much larger.

      • William Walton says:

        Judy, in otherwords, did I scratch myself hard enough such that I have some blood showing. My Dad was a Physician, Surgeon, and Trauma Surgeon and if he would have seen those scratches on me, he would have said go wash it off with soap and water and put a bandaid over it. GZ’s so called wounds were nothing but scratches.

    • Girlp says:

      They really are fighting hard not to put Georgie Porgie on the stand. I’m guessing another denial here.

    • willisnewton says:

      All this proves is that GZ is a quick liar and began his false narrative right away.

      I predict te judge will not allow these “excited utterances” in. Was his discussion of what caliber his pistol was also an “excited utterance?”

      • Trained Observer says:

        Yackety-yaking about his gun like fishermen talk about what bait they used to reel in a big one. Disgusting.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        My ruling would be that there is too much time elapsed and too many other events taking place, between the gunshot and the utterance, for it not to be a contrivance.

        Even worse, we look at the situation: A stranger who is a gunman, is walking about with his weapon in hand, and a homeowner comes out into the dark to meet him??? Asks him to kneel down so he can take a picture of wounds, on the back of the gunman’s head, that were claimed to be from a fight that never actually happened?

        Everything about this situation appears to be contrived. The only “exciting” feature of this mess is that the police are on their way and these events need some explanation.

        The homeowner/resident should be terribly fearful. Too fearful to approach a gunman in the dark, yet he not only does so, but asks for and gets the gunman’s cooperation to take a photo. The homeowner/resident claims to be a “stranger” merely to increase his credibility as an impartial viewer, but the situation belies that!

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      So this is how the defense hopes to get gz’s self defense claims before the jury, as hear say. And self serving hearsay as well.

  11. Beverly Lawson says:

    Friday afternoon….Quite a bit of NPR coverage of the case. Talking about allowing the specific language and the voice Issue…..

  12. Leisa says:

    Thanks!

  13. Leisa says:

    Does Fogen get the cash back he posted for bond after trial?

    • colin black says:

      I would think so at least the majority.
      Otherwise theres no insentive to show up at trial.
      No financial insentive at least.

      • cielo62 says:

        colin~ that is not his money. HIS incentive (supposedly) is that his parents won’t lose their home and whatever other collateral they put up to equal one million dollars. As for the 10% cash bond part, he gets NONE of that back.

        ________________________________

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Nope, 10% of the total amount is the bondsman’s fee. To get that big a bond, the bondsman gave MOM a discount and only charge 95K. Because to make that much money in Sanford, he’d have to write hundred of smaller bonds, since they probably don’t get that many big cases where the accused can afford to make a big bond.
      So, obviously MOM knew there was room to make a deal. But the 95K is gone! There is no money due back.

      Had gz not lied at the bond hearing, he might have gotten a bond that he could make with all cash, say a 300 or 400k bond. In that case, since he’d be getting all of that money back after trial, as long as he didn’t run for it. He could have taken loans against it to pay for his case, experts and such as well as living expenses. And he’d still have his credibility to an extent. Facing a murder 2 charge, you obviously need all the credibility you can get.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        He only had to pay 10k on that original 100k bond, did he not?

        • Yes, plus another $80 K when Jude Lester increased the bond to $1 M.

        • cielo62 says:

          Two Sides~ The original bond was $150,000. And yes he paid about 10% in cash.

          ________________________________

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Right, whatever bail the court sets, you have two options: 1. Post it yourself in total and get it all back when the case is over, or 2. Pay a bondsman to post it for you, the bondsman will have to post the full amount with the court and he gets it all back when the case is over, if the defendant doesn’t flee. For this service, the bondsman can charge whatever s/he wants to, but it is a business and the standard fee is 10%.

          If the defendant flees, the bailbondsman might still recover his money or most of it, if he can catch the defendant, or if the defendant is caught. He can then petition the court to lift the forfeiture. So, with a million dollars at risk, you can bet the BB is going to spend a few thousand, over then next few weeks to keep a set of eyes on gz at all times. It just makes good business sense.

      • willisnewton says:

        And in George’s case, all the credibility he’s mustered adds up to about negative zero.

      • willisnewton says:

        And in George’s case, all the credibility he’s mustered adds up to about negative zero.

        I wouldn’t trust that knucklehead with a burnt match.

    • No, that was the bail bondsman’s 10% premium or fee for putting up the bond and agreeing to take the risk he might rabbit on the bond.

    • willisnewton says:

      Heck no. You pay a bondsman a fee, and he puts up the actual money. The fee is usually around ten per cent

      • Trained Observer says:

        I thought it was 15% — am apparently wrong.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        In AZ, you pay the entire bond yourself. Don’t ask me what the bail bondsmen are for. To keep track of the bail, I guess. And to keep track of defendants.

      • Trained Observer says:

        On the first bail go-around, Fogen coughed up $15,000 on $150,000 bond. When Lester jacked his bail up to a million bucks after the potted palm fiasco, the earlier bond paid was applied to the new total. But I don’t know what the total was to spring him on the million.

    • cielo62 says:

      Leisa~ NOPE! It’s all gone! He had to post 10% (usually) and the bondsman pays the rest of the bond. The Bondsman keeps that 10% as his fee for 1. lending you the money and 2. taking a chance that you won’t skip bail. That is why I believe gz CANNOT make a run for it; the bondsman (and company) have one million reasons to keep close tabs on gz.

      ________________________________

      • He had to post 10% (usually) and the bondsman pays the rest of the bond.

        Not quite right. The defendant pays 10% and the bondsman posts his bond (promise) to pay the full amount of the bail, if the defendant flees.

        The bondsman generally secures the promise by taking title to property. In the defendant’s case, it’s the title to his parent’s home.

        After the case is over, the bondsman returns the title to the person who posted it.

        When real estate is involved the property is quitclaimed to the bondsman who quitclaims it back after the case is over. These transfers are recorded in the county clerk’s office to put third parties on notice that there is a cloud on the title while the case and bond are pending.

        • cielo62 says:

          masonblue~ thank you! I always supposed that the entire million is physically deposited into an account, hence the reason the bondsman is very careful. I didn’t know it was just a promise to pay. STILL the house would be forfeit should gz make a waddle for it. Not that he CARES what happens to his parents, but I’m sure the bondsman cares very much about his million dollars!

          ________________________________

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        There was a period of time when the City (NYC) had a controller appointed (Municipal Assistance Corporation) because of the financial crisis (Felix Rohatyn). During that time the courts were “expected to carry their own weight”, and the judges in the Bronx began to refuse to exonerate bail forfeitures, even when the bailee was recovered. The bondsmen then stopped hiring bounty hunters and escapeeism skyrocketed. After all, why pay to bring the guy back if you were still going to be out the money? Most bondsmen in the Bronx simply closed their door and there were no bail bonds to be had, the jails filled up because they couldn’t release anyone. Until they finally relented and began returning some of the bails that had been forfeited It was too late however, the damage had been done and most of these former bail bonding outfits had moved on. Where there had once been a thriving industry, there were then just a couple of players left.

  14. KittySP says:

    Jean Casareaz just reported parking lot at the court and clerks office is closed.

  15. colin black says:

    Told ya it would start on our Birthdays Prof.

  16. ladystclaire says:

    Has the defense pulled a Jose Baez, by having Fogen sit in front of the jury instead of where he has been sitting all along? I read that from one of the common sense people at HP. does anybody know anything about this? TIA

    • Two sides to a story says:

      The assistant prosecutor asked Judge Nelson this morning if the jury be lined up in a way they could more easily view the defendant and she said yes and the defense agreed. I don’t think this simply helps the defense. As weird as he looks half the time, I think it will help the prosecution and influence the jury to find him guilty.

      • KittySP says:

        @2sides, it was so they could be closer to the witnesses. Defense table will be where it has been.

      • Yorazigo says:

        Two Sides – I thought he asked for the jurors to be more able to see the witnesses as they testified? And I thought they said the tables would be turned back as they were originally? Did I misunderstand? Don’t have time to go back & check tonite.

        • Xena says:

          @Yorazigo.

          I thought he asked for the jurors to be more able to see the witnesses as they testified?

          I think it was Assistant State’s Attorney Guy, and you may be correct about the jurors seeing the witnesses better, but I thought he also said hearing the witnesses. He wants them sat 5 each in the first two rows in the jury box.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @TSTAS. thanks very much for your response to my question and, I hope so to that the jury will be able to look at this village idiot and, see him for the murderer he surely is. got to go watch Rev’s show.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        YW, Lady.

      • groans says:

        Two sides, I think John Guy was asking for the jury seating arrangement (five in first row and five in second row) so that they can more easily hear WITNESSES (not to more easily view the creepy defendant). 🙂

      • Two sides to a story says:

        groans and xena and kitty – you are probably right. I’m usually multitasking – even if I’m listening and watching to something more than once, I’m working as well and I sometimes get about half or 3/4s of the the story right. Sometimes I hear things right the first time but still twist it in my mind because I tend to think in pictures at times and I imagined the jury getting a better look at Fogen when John Guy said that! LOL!

        Get in the box, George!

    • Sleuth says:

      IIRC, it was ASA John Guy who suggested it, and the defense agreed.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      i am pretty sure that i heard during today’s hearing that the seating would be rearrange to it’s normal position for the trial. this special seating was to accomplish voir dire with 40 potential jurors in a small court room.

    • Malisha says:

      Something that certain defendants (who have gotten off) have that Fogen does not have: PRETTY. PRETTY defendants have a better chance of getting off, no matter WHAT the evidence says. That worked for Anthony; it didn’t work for Peterson; it will not work for Fogen. He shouldn’t try to sit where the jurors have to keep seeing him; he ain’t so pretty.

      • towerflower says:

        In Florida, we also had the female teacher convicted of having sex with one of her students……she said she was too pretty to go to jail.

  17. Sleuth says:

    Okay, let’s just say, for the sake of argument, its not Trayvon’s or the confessed murderer’s voice on the 911 call. Who’s voice could it possibly be?

    • Sophia33 says:

      The Ghost of Rodney King begging for a child’s life. {shrug}

      • Sleuth says:

        @Sophia33

        Could be, that’s a thought.

        Could also be the 14yo witness who was out walking his dog at the time when he said he SAW a person lying on the ground, and HEARD gunshots when his dog got away.

    • elcymoo says:

      It’s just absolute nonsense for one of the defense team’s experts to claim that it’s impossible to tell who’s screaming. I used to be able to distinguish screams from not only my two daughters, but i could identify those coming from their cousins or friends when they had sleepovers – and there was abundant screaming going on sometimes, as in the time one of their friends climbed through a window and slid off an icy roof. I identified her screams all the way to the ground…

    • Malisha says:

      Just someone. If you figure out who it was, the Outhouse will dox them.

    • cielo62 says:

      Sleuth~ grey aliens.

      ________________________________

    • Sophia33 says:

      Sleuth:

      I thought of the 14 y.o but he had walked off to catch his dog at the time of the shot.

      • Sleuth says:

        @Sophia33

        My experts just advised me that I just need to stop making shyte up as I go along. 🙂

        Now, you and I, and everybody here, know darn well that is Trayvon Benjamin Martin’s voice.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          That’s a question that the crazies made up, an angry armed gunman whose been trained in self defense by professional trainers, who held jobs as security and a bar bouncer, but was fired for being too violent, is hardly going to be bested by some skinny little kid without any training or fight knowledge at all.

          Why in the world would he be calling for help anyway? Unless Taaffe or Oysteman was there hitting him and carving up his head. The kid was unarmed, frightened and trying his best to escape. The kid never touched gz and the voice on the 911 call is dominant while the one yelling is screaming in pain. On top of every other advantage gz had, he’s in a super heavyweight fighting class, which is five grades above Trayvon. Trayvon would not even be allowed in the ring with gz, not even for practice, because that’s how superior gz’s weight/strength advantage would be.

          Truthfully? gz thinks he’s waaaayy smarter than everyone else, the world is his oyster and we’re all just a pack of fools. We’ll see!

    • Malisha says:

      “Racial” and “profiling” go together like peanutbutter and jelly?

      Hmmm. So when law enforcement officers profile criminals to help solve crimes they’re violating criminals’ civil rights?

      Or does O’Mara really mean that in this case, since the killer was not a law enforcement officer and knew NOTHING about real law enforcement work, it is obvious that his “profiling” was simply wrongful racism in disguise?

      AhAAAAA!

      Oh, and about that peanutbutter and jelly? Knock out those two words (or three words) as well. Substitute “chitlins and grits.”

    • Sleuth says:

      @elcymoo

      This stuff with the voice experts is way over my head. But I did understand the defense’s expert to say they don’t know of anybody who can hear what Reich hears.

      Heck, there are witnesses who heard what Reich HEARS, and most of us here also HEAR various words being spoken on the 911 call.

      They know it’s not likely their clients voice, that’s why they keep making shyte up as they go along, and keep stalling for more time, so the can make up so more bs.

      • cielo62 says:

        Sleuth~ IIRC, the defense “experts” hadn’t bothered to hear the sample at all. For one guy, it just wasn’t “laboratory pure” enough. BAH!

        ________________________________

    • Malisha says:

      Jeez. It just occurred to me!

      June 2013 (Frye Hearing) Fogen, West, O’Mara and their experts: “There is absolutely no way any expert using any method could tell whose voice is screaming on that tape.”

      June 2013 (bond hearing) Robert Zimmerman Senior: “That is absolutely my son George’s voice screaming on that tape.”

      Um… oh well, nothing has been inconsistent.

  18. Sleuth says:

    It sure will be interesting to find out who whupped his arse while he was living in Manassas, Virginia. Maybe it will come out during the trial, maybe not.

    According to Manassas Police Sgt. Eddie Rivera, he was “a victim of a minor criminal assault”. And I have been unable to find any evidence this happened. Maybe he was a minor when the assault took place and the court record was sealed.

    Seems like shortly after this alledged assault, they shipped his arse to Sanford, Florida. Hmmmm……I wonder why. I think the family mentioned this during the first bond hearing, not sure though.

    • Sleuth says:

      Could it be he’s been hiding from folks most of his life?

    • Leisa says:

      Here is a link showing his comments on my space. He says something about his buds not giving him up. i think he retaliated for that butt kicking and he didn’t get caught. http://www.examiner.com/article/george-zimmerman-s-myspace-page-includes-racial-slurs

      • Sophia33 says:

        So the wannabe thug was Zimmerman. Wow!

      • Sleuth says:

        @Leisa

        OooooooOWeeeeeee! Hotdog Leisa! Thanks for the reminder. Yes, I saw those comments a while back, and forgot about it.

        And I think he also thanks his homeboys at “Big Mike’s Securitiy”. Wonder if that’s “Big Mike” as in the security guard we’ve been seeing in court this week.

      • Girlp says:

        I suspect daddyz has been pulling strings for years to get GZ’s behind out of trouble sounds like he lucked out one time or maybe daddyz paid the friends off so GZ would not get in trouble…I wonder if he has a juvie record?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        The big guy that goes to court looks like the same guy in the picture. The reporters have been saying that he wears a family pass in the courtroom.

    • ladystclaire says:

      @Sleuth, I wonder if it had anything to do with what ever his boys did jail time for, and they didn’t pinch his fat ass. I had a feeling he had to leave Virginia and, I don’t think it was his choice to do so either. I also believe he had his sister’s boyfriend beat up as well.

      We are dealing with a person who has no soul and, that’s the truth. you can see it in his eyes when he was just a child. there is definitely something wrong with him but, he still knows the difference between right and wrong.

      • Sleuth says:

        @laldystclaire

        I think you just hit it on the nail! That’s the same thing Leisa said (upthread, just above you),

        Are you talking about Dawn’s or Gracie’s boyfriend? I don’t know he beat him up. Oh, my goodness. This family is starting to sound like “A Wanna Be Mob”.

        What’s the boyfriend’s name?

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Sluth, I don’t know which sister’s boyfriend it was or his name but, he mentioned something on his my space page about calling his boys and they would be there in no time and, he was referring to one of the sister’s boy friends. I’m just not sure which one.

      • Sleuth says:

        @ladystclaire

        I just finished reading his MySpace blabber on a website that took screen shots of his page.

        It does mention something about his boys taking care of some business regarding his sister, and you’re right it does not mention the boyfriend’s name.

      • Sleuth says:

        @cielo62

        You can bet that’s what happened, running his trap, and probably owed them money for drugs.

        Bragging about his arse didn’t get pinched………..well it’s about to be pinched real soon.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Sleuth, I’m guessing that he had his gang beat the crap out of his sister’s boyfriend and, this is what they served time in jail for and, the dummies didn’t pinch his fat ass.

        Fogen is a bad seed IMO and, he’s probably had more run ins with the law that we will never know about.

    • cielo62 says:

      Sleuth~ I’m willing to bet gz shot his mouth off to a “Mexican” who handed his ass back to him, and pissed of the local factions against gz. SOOOO…. daddy had to send him away to protect him from the consequences of his stupidity. Anyway, THAT is one of my guesses. I have more!

      ________________________________

    • Lynn says:

      I thought I heard Junior tell Dr. Drew that GZ had never been a victim of a crime or something to that effect. All I could think of was this. Maybe his “last appearance before GZ is aquitted” made it to youtube and I can listen again.

  19. Sophia33 says:

    Yeah West must have pissed her off. It’s almost 5 PM on Friday and I don’t think she is going to make a ruling on Frye.

  20. Sophia33 says:

    Thank you much!

  21. Shari says:

    I don’t want to hear that GZ’s right to effective counsel is being compromised. I don’t want this appealed. He murdered a kid in cold blood and the authorities were going to let him get away with it. He has M’OM as lead counsel and I think he has the authority to remove West. Because he has a competent lead attorney I hope this is enough.

    • Malisha says:

      He’s going to appeal and appeal and appeal no matter how absolutely perfect the trial is and no matter how vigorously all his constitutional rights are protected and overproteced. And he will file the state habeas, the federal habeas, the appeals of those and on and on and on and on and OOOOOOON. Count on it. He will be selling this as a grave injustice brought on by money-grubbing Black schemers (who should have apologized to him long ago) until either the cows come home or he kicks the bucket (which naturally will have kicked him first).

      • Sophia33 says:

        That is why I think JN bought into that bogus argument MOM made in jury selection and prevented two strikes from the defense.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          @sophia

          as much as we might want to call the jury strike issue a ‘bogus issue’ by o’mara, the law states that we cannot.

          leatherman was very good to explain the 2 supreme court cases for challenging a strike on a potential juror.

          just as the defense could not have arbitrarily issued strikes on any black potential jurists without being challenged, the defense also has the right to challenge any strikes offered by the state. minorities and women are protected classes, the challenge by the defense was perfectly correct and i can find no fault with the judge’s ruling. fred will correct me (i am sure) if i am off base.

      • Tzar says:

        He can appeal that is his right
        the state has played by the rules and the judge is by the numbers
        so he can appeal all he wants

    • Sleuth says:

      Shari, I feel the same way. That’s why I am hoping and praying that The Wiester’s health is not in jeopardy. Actually, I don’t want anything, or anyone to put this trial in jeopardy.

      I really would hate to see a mistrial and have the Fulton/Martin family go through this nightmare all over again.

    • Dave says:

      I suspect that West will soon withdraw from the case “for health reasons” and that O’Mara will use it as an excuse to ask for a continuance while West’s replacement gets prepared. It shouldn’t take more than a month or so.

      • Xena says:

        @Dave. HLN had a “Who are the people” type of segment and they said that Don West resigned his position as a public defender so he could represent GZ. How disappointed he must now be — probably drinks his breakfast, lunch and dinner.

      • cielo62 says:

        Dave~ And that excuse still won’t fly with Judge Nelson. MOM is the head attorney and originally was planning in flying solo anyway. No continuence.

        ________________________________

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I wonder how much it affects OM’s and West’s law practice to lose this first high-profile case rather than win it?

      • ay2z says:

        LOL, he’ll buck up and handle the pressure or bust. (literally)

  22. chi1224 says:

    Hey everyone, here is the link to the court website where docs are filed– for anyone who doesn’t have it:

    http://www.flcourts18.org/page.php?129

    • elcymoo says:

      Remind me, please – who is Gordon Pleasance? I noticed that the State has filed a motion to ‘perpetuate testimony’, [record a deposition?] since this witness may be out of state during part of the trial.

  23. Beverly Lawson says:

    This just continues to be so sad and now has become almost a mockery. What a mess…and it is not surprising that lawyers get shot. Often someone is about to lose everything….family, money, house etc. GZ, like OJ, is no doubt a scary person. We have to hope for the best and know also that there are many good people. I assume that the Judge is competent and has the best intentions, but any human soul can lose patience….No surprise. Thanks for this arena to follow and reflect.

  24. Sophia33 says:

    Just checking in…any word on the Frye ruling?

    • willisnewton says:

      I got the feeling JN was going to issue a ruling in the afternoon but after West made her angry she decided he could wait until Monday . Unsure tho.

    • chi1224 says:

      I too keep looking and checking in, but so far nothing.
      I hope we get it today.

      • Sophia33 says:

        I hope so, too.

        On another note. I type 60 to 70 words a minute and I post fast. You what this blog just said to me. “You are responding to quickly. Slow down”. LOL!!!

        Yes sir.

      • chi1224 says:

        Sophia that’s funny! You are probably just riled up like me about this case…. I pity my poor husband next week, I will be glued to the trial live stream! I plan to have all my work done, shopping done, food made, fridge stocked, etc so I can spend the entire day watching the trial!

        • cielo62 says:

          chi224~ LOL! Popcorn ready, cold beverages at hand, volume up and a “Do Not Disturb sign on the front door!

          ________________________________

  25. Yorazigo says:

    On the light side:

  26. Breaking, and this is not satire:

    4 shot at N.C. law firm, Wal-Mart; suspect caught

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57590480/4-shot-at-law-firm-and-wal-mart-in-n.c/

    • Two sides to a story says:

      America and guns. :[

      • willisnewton says:

        Guns stupidity and probably prescription medications too.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        And anger.

      • willisnewton says:

        It’s worth speculating about that GZ was a member of a fight gym and may have had access to steroids.

        So called “‘roid rage” is a known side effect. Legally he was already so full of pills that he rattled anyway. Who knows what he was jonesing for, combining and adding liquor on top of…

        Some say “he wasn’t a drinker” but often these people can be so altered they don’t NEED booze to be buzzed all the time.

      • ladystclaire says:

        It’s really a pity that some in this country can’t see the violence that has run amuck in this country, via guns and those who have no business owning a gun (ie) George Zimmerman, Adam Lanza, and James Holmes. even though Lanza wasn’t a owner, he still had access to guns in his home.

        Some in this country would just love to go back to the days of the wild west if they could.

    • Shari says:

      @Willis

      I get the idea that he was a drinker/alcoholic. Watch Joe Oliver’s interview with Lawrence O’Donnel.

  27. disappointed says:

    Anyone know about the shell casing? Location? Was it found where it should have been according to the story? I am not sure if I remember hearing about it.

    • willisnewton says:

      The shell casing was not found until the body was carried away. The csi people used a metal detector to spot it, resting butt up in the grass aprox in the middle of a triangle formed by the “tactical” flashlight, Trayvon’s cell phone and the body itself. Look for the evidence photo with markers 5, 6 and 7 all together.

      As near as I can estimate the shell casing was 40.5 feet south of the T

      • Trained Observer says:

        The casing must have been knocked out of the weapon and stumbled to that location.

      • Malisha says:

        TO, 😆

      • willisnewton says:

        The casing claims it was just looking for an address when it was struck by the firing pin 20 times, homie.

      • Judy75201 says:

        Haha, Willis.

      • Sophia33 says:

        Willis:

        What information can be gleaned from the location of the shell casing?

      • Dave says:

        Sophia,
        The casing can be proven to have been ejected from the killers gun. It can reasonably be inferred that the gun was fired from a location slightly (1-3 feet) to the left of where the case was found.

      • Sophia33 says:

        This is the only way I can reply to Dave. Thank you.

        One more question. Does the shell casing corroborate GZ’s story as far as who was on top or bottom at the time of the shooting. I know it doesn’t support where he said that the fight took place.

      • Nellie Nell says:

        I had this same question a couple of days ago. The professor probably answered me but I have not gone read it yet.

        Dave, I am under the impression that if Fogen had been on the bottom getting beat, the shell casing would have injected from the gun on the opposite side of Trayvon’s body which would have been closer towards the T? Does the casing eject from the left hand side of the gun? I may have to look at the gun pictures again as well as the casing, but because I have never shot or owned a gun I just can seem to grasp the info.

      • Dave says:

        The case is ejected upward, to the right, and slightly rearward. (assuming that the gun is held upright and parallel to the ground).If the shooter was standing upright with his right arm parallel to the ground and the sights at eye level, the cases would typically fall in the general area of his right foot or slightly to the right of it. Obviously the final resting place of the case depends on the position of the gun at the instant it is fired.

    • gbrbsb says:

      IMBW, but I was under the impression that there were problems relying on the shell casing as evidence to prove anything of where it happened as it could have been kicked or trodden on and therefore inadvertently moved from it’s original site by GZ, neighbours, EMT, police and even MO, all milling around.

      IMO where Trayvon’s cell phone fell is much more indicative of locations because it fell some 40 feet from the T and according to DD she heard it fall, she heard the “grass” sound of it being on the ground just before it cut off, and just before it fell Trayvon had told her he was “right by” his house which in the scheme of long journey Trayvon had just travelled, makes perfect sense even if on pro Zim sites they seem to think this shows a huge lie on either Trayvon’s or DD’s behalf !

      • Sophia33 says:

        I see. Well that makes sense.

        • cielo62 says:

          Sophia~ BUT we now that with a bullet to the heart, Trayvon was NOT going to be anywhere BUT where he was shot. Bullet casing was near the body, so it seems like a good bet that that is where the discharge took place.

          ________________________________

      • gbrbsb says:

        @cielo
        Agree absolutely Cielo, it is could well be in the place it landed, but whether it was 6 inches to the left or right, or 12 inches down or up will IMO never be provable BARD.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I’ve always thought DD meant to say “gasp” not grass. If you listen to her interview with Bernie, she said, and I am using Screamin Jay’s transcription here,

        Dee Dee: Yeah..and I hear, I hear a sound like “bump.” You cou’ hear that Trayvon
        bump…somebody bumped Trayvon, ’cause I could hear the grass.

        I think she may have been talking about the sound you hear if someone gets hit in the chest area.
        Grass never made sense to me.

        • gbrbsb says:

          I never thought of it that way way and I would so love you to be right because that could be what the prosecution is counting on to prove GZ confronted Trayvon as Guy referred to in court today when rebutting the words the defence wanted excluded from opening statements.

          That said, I never felt “grass” didn’t make sense. To me grass does have a sound, especially when wet. I remember finding a voicemail on my home phone which was over 5 mins of strange noises. I was totally perplexed until I realised that it was my mobile bouncing about in my wet raincoat pocket while I was walking.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        If you listen to the interview, DD imitates the sound while she is telling about it. At some later time she calls it the grass or gasp thing. I just think it is something to consider and not just accept that what she heard was the phone falling in the grass.

        The prosecution may be talking about DD, but I am still hoping they have additional witness testimony that we are not aware of at this time.

        • gbrbsb says:

          You have piqued my interest so I will listen to it again. I so hope you mean the interview with BDLR because the other is of such dismal quality I can’t distinguish half the words without going over and over let alone
          a “gasp” ; – )

          BTW, I saw your isolation of Reich’s “these shall be” on the previous thread and left you two comments that may interest you but due to nesting you may not see them. In resume, I hear a “pl” (or “pol” but with little space between the “p” and “l”) where Reich hears “th” and I hear “should be” not “shall be”. I am now concluding it is not GZ’s and supporting that it sounds much nearer to the mike than Trayvon screaming “I’m begging you” in the background. IMO it is more like “… police should be…”. I have also explained what I hear just after the shot which you may like to try yourself.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        But Gilbreath said, “We have Mr. Zimmerman’s statements, we have the shell casing, and we had Mr. Martin’s body.”

        So the prosecution investigators must have determined at the very least that the position of the shell casing didn’t match Fogen’s story. It found under the body, no? Even if it were kicked around by the EMTs and police, even by Fogen himself, it’s doubtful it could have gone all the way from the T where Fogen said he fell and later stumbled, shimmied, tiger-swiped, pushed. etc.

        • gbrbsb says:

          @TSTAS
          I never read as much into Gilbreath’s statement as some did, but I absolutely agree the bullet couldn’t have been kicked from the T, and its emplacement proximate to the body, I can’t recall if underneath or not, makes it logical to assume that where it was found was more or less where GZ shot Trayvon.

          But I never understood the significance and/ or importance of the shell case. IMO you don’t need a shell case to conclude GZ shot Trayvon 40 ft from the T when you have no less than a body, and with forensics telling us that GZ shot Trayvon at close to intermediate range it’s pretty clear GZ must have been very near… or am I missing something ?

          As I noted in my comment I found the emplacement of Trayvon’s mobile much stronger evidence as to where the altercation started because the struggle could have fairly easily bumped and rolled over the 40 feet from the T, but IMO, if we believe DD’s statement, where Trayvon’s mobile fell is pretty much indicative of where it all began… and it certainly wasn’t at the T !

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            It’s obvious that gz never knew about Trayvon’s phone, perhaps he thought the ear buds were for a radio or music player. Not to mention that gz’s mind would be on something else anyway. He had 3 minutes after the shot to work over the evidence, but he could do very little because by that time there were witnesses watching.

            Otherwise, he’d have liked to have picked up the flashlight and phone and dragged the body north to deposit it all near the ‘T”. Someone, either Tzar or Blushedbrown said that the blood on the back of gz’s head looked poured on. If so, it’s a good fit with Jon being involved and that would certainly explain why he knew to come out and take a picture of the gunman’s head, while the “stranger” still had his weapon in his hand. Did Jon also ask the “stranger” gunman to kneel down for the picture? That makes more sense in light of the “call my wife” artifact.

            “Just tell her I shot someone”, not “Tell her I’m between RVC and TTL on the north end of the dogwalk”. So, how would she know where to go so quickly, without any directions? From miles away she gets a call from a “stranger” telling her that her husband just shot someone? She immediately calls MO and the go in by the unblocked rear gate? How did she know that it wasn’t Colonial Village the call had come from?

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        @gbrbsb

        I’ll go back and find your replies.
        It was in the interview with BdlR. I think she was looking for a word to describe the sound. So the reason I think she may have meant to say gasp, is the context not so much because I can hear her say it.

  28. ZCBest says:

    WOW, Jerry! Welcome. Your name is as good as it was the day you were named.

    Be blessed.

    • cielo62 says:

      Shari~ EXCEPT that it’s illegal to do so. ONLY THE JUDGE can issue a gag order. I understand his frustration. But it STILL doesn’t change the fact there was nothing Bernie et al could legally do.

      ________________________________

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Thanks for posting!

    • Rachael says:

      from your article:

      “When this came to be with Trayvon,” Fulton said, “it was harder than me dealing with my limitations. I can find ways around my limitations. But..he’s gone.”

      My heart is breaking – for all of them.

      • cielo62 says:

        Rachael~ The media makes money by being slimes. I also found it interesting that the ONLY thing all jurors agreed on was the unreliability of the media. Once the real evidence comes to light, I believe that “unreliability” will turn into absolute disgust.

        ________________________________

    • Sleuth says:

      @Shari

      Thank you so much for posting this.

  29. William Walton says:

    Yesterday, I was amazed at West going on and on with Owen about algorithms. It would appear that he expected the algorithm to tell the computer that it was GZ’s scream, press print, and you have the answer. An algorithm is just a sophisticated flow chart that programers use. What was missing was an explanation of the acustic analysis which consists of a sine curve. A sine curve is one which consists of peaks and valleys. One has to interpret the scan both visually and by ear. In the case of the screams, the peak from TM’s scream would be high and narrow because it would be of a higher pitch. The scream if from GZ, would be a broad valley because it would be low pitch. The area under these peaks and for the valleys can be integrated to give areas which can mathematically be compared. In my opinion, I think JN should allow the experts to testify and allow the acoustic data to be presented to the jury. Acoustic analyses is not new and novel science. It has been around for years. We use it in reservoirs to determine rock structure. Just my opinion. I must state that I am not a programer but took one fortran class while at the University. My youngest son keeps kidding me, “Dad there is no place on your laptop where you can insert an IBM punch cardl.

    • Malisha says:

      I have an algorithm for Don West.
      I’d like to give him this algorithm personally.
      Because right now, he looks like he needs algorithm.

    • Dave says:

      I’ve got algorithm.
      I’ve got music.
      I’ve got my gal.
      Who could ask for anything more?

    • fauxmccoy says:

      i too, started back in the day of punch cards and mag card sorters. i was lucky that in ’79 as a high school freshman, my small, country highschool had a ‘computer’ that took up an entire small room. it’s possibilities and my math abilities is what inspired me to start college as a math/comp sci major, although i did lose interest in a couple of years, as desktop models became available. i realized i could accomplish all that i wished without having to write my own programs. i do not regret the time i put into learning such things, they helped me significantly throughout a variety of jobs/careers. i will say when i returned to college at age 30 as an anthropology major, it was a whole lot easier.

      • William Walton says:

        I am one up on you, I started the University in 1960 and graduated in Dec 1967 with degrees in Chemistry and Chemical Engineering. So, I have gone from slide rule, to calculator, to programable calculator, to computer, to laptop, to the internet. The University computer took up the whole third floor of the Administration building and was enclosed in a constant temperature and constant humidity environment. Students programs were run when the computer was not being used for payroll, registration, grades, etc. So, it could take 2-3 weeks before you got your program back. They would all be laid out on a table face down. You would cautiously pick up the corner of each program and if there was a picture of Newman from Mad Magazine you knew the program did not run. The caption under the picture of Newman would read “What Me Worry.” Finally got through the course with a C but it complted the Math Minor. Name of the Computer was Maniac.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          @william walton

          thanks for your CV … what? me worry?

          that’s funny to me because the man that inspired me most to get into the field was not only a huge fan of mad magazine, but also a mechanical engineer from university of utah in ’60, my ‘uncle walt’ coincidentally. he wound up working as a computer scientist long before they had a name for it. he did make me learn to use the slide rule and was an excellent chess mentor and was kind enough to buy me a very nice HP 11-C (you’d know the model) when i started college.

      • William Walton says:

        fauxmccoy, a funny interesting note for you. When my daughter was taking physics 101 at Texas A&M and was home, she was having questions about a problem and asked my help. She went to see a friend and when she came back the electriciy was off and I was doing the calculations using my slide rule. Keep in mind that this was in 2003. Her comment was Dad what are you doing using a slide rule when you have a scientific calculator. Told her I wanted to know if I remebered how to use it. She was impressed that I could solve the problem using a slide rule. When back at A&M, she went to the bookstore to try and purchase one. No Luck. Asked her Chemistry adviser who told her “Katie, they now call them computers.” Katie now has her MS in Chemistry, works for an engineering firm that does contract work for NASA, and is planning on working on her PhD in Chemistry. Thought you might find this funny. It is surprising how small this world really is.

    • KittySP says:

      William, thank you for that high level explanation. it was hard following the experts and I’m a visual learner…but you verbalized it so well that I could picture it in my mind and grasp the concept immediately!

      • William Walton says:

        KittySP, do not feel bad, I had a hard time following the dialog with West constantly bringing up algorithms as though they would spit out the right answer. Glad I added some unterstanding to it all as I was becoming confused.

    • MollyK says:

      I only caught part of the Owen cross-examination, but I did hear him say that he did not understand the theory underlying that analysis: “I’m not a mathematician.” You do not have to be a mathematician to understand the models and analyses, and it seems to me that if you don’t understand them, you aren’t an expert, just someone who puts data into what is for you a black box and gets something out. But maybe I missed something?

      • cielo62 says:

        MollyK~ A person can be an expert at cell phone repair and NOT know a single thing about how sound travels between call towers. They are different things. Owen knows how to get results from the samples he receives. He does it consistently and it is corroborated by others in his field. Yes, he is an expert. No, he is not a mathematician.

        ________________________________

      • William Walton says:

        MollyK, you do not need to be a mathematician or algorithm writer to use a program. I only want to know how to turn on the computer, choose the appropriate program, enter the data, let the computer crunch the numbers, develop a decline curve, and print it out. The computer is not going to interpret the results, that is something I have to do. I had a partner who was a computer nut and he would enter oil well data into the computer and expect it to come up with the well treatment procedure for him. It was totally frustrating. However, in defense of Owen, he most definately could be an expert in the interpreating the results generated by the program.

      • MollyK says:

        cielo62, I don’t think that’s a good analogy. A person who can repair a cell phone is a technician, not an expert in cell phone communications or anything else. Being competent is not the same as being an expert.

        • cielo62 says:

          MollyK~ but what is it you need? Own isn’t an “expert” on the science of the machine he uses. He is an expert in interpreting the results. OK. A radiologist (Highly paid MD) interprets X-Rays. But I bet he couldn’t fix the X-Ray machine if it suddenly went blank. Not his department. Owens can interpret the machine’s results. He doesn’t know the mechanics of how it works.

          ________________________________

      • MollyK says:

        WilliamWalton, I agree that you don’t have to be a mathematician or a programmer to use a program. If you are an expert in a scientific field, which is what I believe these experts are claiming to be, and you are analyzing results that are generated by a computer program, you certainly should understand the scientific principals on which the algorithms are based. You can be an expert in a scientific field and not know how to program. But you certainly should understand the calculations the program is doing. I heard almost none of the expert testimony, just a little of Owen’s testimony today. I interpreted his “I’m not a mathematician” comment to mean that he did not understand the theoretical foundations of his field. No mathematicians are required here.

        I have a Ph.D. in a hard science and have been doing my own programming for many years. So I do understand these issues.

      • William Walton says:

        MollyK, in your last post, you just made my point. Not trying to give my age away, in the old days, we had to do calculations using slide rules, then calculators, then programable calculators, To develop a decline curve we would do it manually using graph paper. However, the end product we had to interpret. This process could take several weeks. Now, the computer can crunch numbers, create a decline curve but I still have to interpret the decline curve. Yes, I know the parameters which go into developing the decline curve but I do not have an interest in the process of developing an algorithm to write a program to generate the data when I can use one already present. I could also say I am not a Mathematician only a GeoChemist and GeoEngineer. But I still understand the concepts as does Owen.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      West doesn’t have a clue what he is talking about. That last “expert” was full of it, as far as I am concerned. He loved making it sound more complex than it really is. The calculations he was describing weren’t complex, they just required many itterations, and you probably need a multidimensional array to keep track of results. The problem is translating sound to some kind of mathematical representation that can be compared to another mathematical representation.
      Human hearing is so much better than any automated system, because we add context to what we hear. Computer software and visual representations of sound, can help narrow the possible matches down to a manageable size. At that point human critical listening skills have to take over the last part.
      Computer software may help to minimize listener bias.

  30. aussie says:

    Welcome, Jerry Counellis.

    You haven’t lost your good name: every sensible person knows what O’Mara was up to, and the stupid ones’ opinions don’t count.

    O’Mara only accused you of being stealth because you’d forgotten that FB posting from ages ago.

    Well, that was his excuse.

    He really accused you because doxing everyone in this case is what he’s been doing for so long, it’s becoming second nature.

    Don’t worry about suing him, the trial about that would just spread the allegation to a lot more people. You could offer yourself as a witness though, if they do try to get him disbarred later.

    In a small way you are part of a historic trial. Your name is good. Be proud.

  31. groans says:

    For those like me who missed the hearing, there’s a good quality video without eardrum-bursting commentary here:

    • GirlP says:

      O’Mara your nose is growing sure you have been very careful with words in this case…you have been careful to use words to mislead in this case.

    • Nellie Nell says:

      Thanks Groans….. while I love Trent and his passion about this case, he just can not help but to blurt out his thoughts of disgust! Nothing like watching at a comfortable volume only to be scared shitless at an unexpected and very loud outburst! LOL

      • gbrbsb says:

        I love Trent too… for genuine, but exactly what you describe happened to me today with his upload of today’s hearing. With the volume up, just when I was concentrating on trying to hear what one attorney was saying… I near hit the ceiling and my ears rang for at least 15 mins after!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I love one in which the defendant and his bro walk into the courtroom and Trent makes you hit the ceiling with “WTF Is THIS!!?”

      • tinytruthseeker says:

        Try watching with grandparents within earshot….

  32. Also, from @Rodlen, upthread, a compiled list of State’s witnesses. Hit this up:

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vhRsjYvGlwMZvC1yYnAV2MBZGkHYqFloC6nlUCnrhl0/edit

  33. Folks, dig. There is a former PJ upthread! Everybody go give E-7 a warm welcome, he/she needs it after that experience!

  34. Rodlen says:

    Here’s a compiled State discovery list I’ve made over time. It may be of use for consultation during the trial. Started it a while back, and it’s as complete as it can be (no 14 or 15, as we don’t have them yet, but includes everything else).

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vhRsjYvGlwMZvC1yYnAV2MBZGkHYqFloC6nlUCnrhl0/edit?usp=sharing

      • Sleuth says:

        Just going over Rodlen’s State discovery list. I saw the names of 2 SPD officers, Perkins and Barnes.

        IIRC, these are the officers Serino blamed for the capias he wrote. He said they “made” him write it. He also said they were friends of Trayvon’s father.

        If true, do you think his allegations will see the light of day in the trial?

      • Sleuth says:

        @cielo62

        Okay, but I’m confused. Help me out here, pleeeeeez! 🙂

        Early on, when everybody was talking, except Serino, it was reported, and based on a police report, the confessed murderer was initially charged with Manslaughter, etc.

        IIRC, Serino’s allegations against Perkins and Barnes were included in one of the “Evidence” dumps, no? Or was it only just reported in the press?

        I don’t understand how is not a part of this current trial.

        • cielo62 says:

          Sleuth~ I think the entire Serino capias affair was more to do with WHY gz wasn’t arrested until HUGE public outcry and intervention by the governor. That aspect of why he wasn’t arrested has nothing to do with the murder itself; ie the stalking, profiling, confrontation and shooting itself. THAT SINGLE EPISODE. Serino’s actions/non actions AFTER that are interesting BUT NOT relevant to the murder itself. Get it?

          ________________________________

        • What the police believed or did not believe does not make it more or less likely that the defendant murdered Trayvon. That is why it is not relevant or admissible.

      • Sleuth says:

        @Professor

        and

        @cielo62

        Okay, I got it. Thank you both for your patience, and helping me figure this out.

      • Malisha says:

        They “made” Serino write a capias? So Serino’s a “made man”? WOW!!

      • Malisha says:

        Another thing about the “Perkins and Barnes made Serino do it” theory: did they make him write two drafts asking for Murder-2 charges and only THEN change his mind and ask for Manslaughter? Wow. That would really be interesting. 🙄

      • lurker says:

        Recall that BDLR’s in limine motion prohibits the defense from questioning the police about what they believe regarding Zimmerman’s guilt or innocence.

    • Oh wow, thank you so much, amazing. Really cool that you put the time and work into this, and sorry if you awaited moderation for very long.

      Fred is looking now, I am headed over; I have wanted to see this for a long time.

    • Sleuth says:

      @Rodlen

      Thank you very much. What a fantastic job!

    • Tzar says:

      @Rodlen

      Thank you very much. and Welcome (I have not seen you before so…)

  35. Trained Observer says:

    SouthernGirl … huge thanks. Audio fabulous, better than yesterday live!

  36. Watch the defense scrambling at the State’s strikes. Check out O’Mara’s action when B86 @ the 8:51 mark is struck. LOL!

  37. Jerry Counelis says:

    ..Hi All. Very interesting stuff here.
    ..Thought some here might be interested to know some Facts surrounding the abuse that I, (E-7)..suffered @ the hands of Zimmerman’s defense team as a result of doing my best to be honest & forthright as a prospective Juror…beginning with a conclusion.
    …..Guess I won’t be getting any apology / retraction…& HE /they won’t be getting SANCTIONED for purposefully trashing prospective Jurors by proffering Fabrications to the Court & then feeding Lies to the media.
    ..His complaint was that I Lied to the Court..when in FACT, it was Him that lied to the Court thru Don West.
    ..They Claim to intend to protect Jurors / prospective Jurors…while they purposefully Out IDs & Trash prospectives to pre-position for mistrial / appeal & to big-foot press accounts of Mom’s own public apology for the PREVIOUS victim-bashing of Trayvon.
    ..Mom HIMSELF claims further that MY “Lies” & following efforts @ self defense against HIS Lies..risked not only his case but the entire justice system, when the FACT is, that’s Exactly what His actions did…but to compound the damage afterward by PUBLICLY calling for my Arrest is Absolutely unforgivable, & as “I” see it risks the Jury system more that I EVER could have.
    ..With “Gavel-to-Gavel coverage”, future Jurors & prospectives..especially in high profile cases will need attys of their OWN upon simply being summoned @ the nexus of the “Justice” system, Social Media & 24/7 “News”…& Ironically, it seems that the Seminole County “Justice” System STILL “Needs an Enema”.
    …Nice for that defense team, but where do “I” go to recover my good name?
    ….Will history forever document the Fabricated Falsehood of ME as the revealed Lying “Stealth Juror” from the Zimmerman trial?
    “Mom”..Should be Disbarred!

    • E-7!!! A PJ, Oh My God! Sorry for the wait there, we have just approved your pending comment and are so grateful you swung by, with a heartfelt take. So yeah, we saw that, calling PJs liars and the like, disgusting, isn’t it?

      So excited to have you here, a most warm welcome to you!

    • diary73 says:

      Thank you for sharing with us! So sorry for you to have endured such treatment. Do you have an attorney who is willing to call for sue the defense for defamation and call for his disbarment?

      • diary73 says:

        Strike he words “call for.”

      • disappointed says:

        E7 Sorry you were treated badly. It is obvious like GZ the Defense has no shame in their game. Keep your head up and don’t give up. Do want you think you need to do, to stop the mockery this team is doing to Lady Justice.

    • Trial-is-underwaybaby says:

      Yes, I have been watching this whole thing since it started last year. Zimmerman, his lawyers, and his family are basically dishonest scum. if only all things were admissible in court, the jury would see how ridiculous they are, because even the trivial issues Trayvon had would be dwarfed compared to the Zimmerman’s and MOM who play that high and mighty role. They throw the most stones and live in a cheaply made GLASS house! Everything the defense has been doing is delaying and making false claims because the defendant has no valid claim of self defense. They want everyone to give “poor” George the benefit of the doubt and constantly complain about the media, when they are the main ones in every source of media spreading BullSHIT about everyone involved in the case from the victims family to law enforcement, to judges and jurors with no remorse. I could go on for day’s about the shenanigans they have been pulling, but I’ll I will just leave it at that!

    • Trained Observer says:

      Greetings, Jerry. Yes … where do you go to restore your good name?. For openers, I think it’s good that you came here.

      Apart from having been smeared, you raise important questions that need to be raised about how prospective jurors in high profile cases are handled in this era of new media. I thought many of the questions asked by both the defense and the State were overly intrusive.

      This Leatherman site is a spirited blog with huge insights. People give their opinion orpresent theories and either garner approval or get raked over the coals — but nobody gets shot dead. I hope you’ll stick around.

    • Yorazigo says:

      Welcome E-7 and thanks for your informative post.

    • Sophia33 says:

      Welcome! Wow! Thank you for coming by and sharing. So sorry for what you have endured.

    • Judy75201 says:

      I’m glad you found your way here, Jerry.

    • willisnewton says:

      E7 – I’m curious what your impression of the defendant was on a up close and personal basis; meaning what were your impressions seeing him face to facts and did he make eye contact with anyone ?

    • MollyK says:

      Jerry, I’m so sorry that your reward for performing your civic duty was to be called a “stealth juror” and outed. I was stunned that MOM actually said this. Is it likely that you will be successful suing him, or are statements made in a trial protected? I wish you the best.

      • concernedczen says:

        O’Mara also called the 2nd black female juror that he struck a possible stealth juror because her church has spoken out against the killing.

        O’Mara is a lowlife.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Sorry for your travails. Your identity should have been protected in perpetuity.

      OM was playing high theatre to open Zimmerman supporter wallets, something he’s done in a dirty way that should anger even them.

      And it won’t happen much longer!

      Hopefully, once this trial is over, the defense team will have smeared their own names so badly that yours will be forgotten. They’ve crossed the line of decency too many times to be taken seriously as defense attorneys.

    • ZCBest says:

      WOW, Jerry! Welcome. Your name is as good as it was the day you were named.

      Be blessed.

      We should start a petition to get MOM disbarred!

    • Sleuth says:

      Hey Jerry! Welcome aboard.

      I totally disagree with how O’Dirty and The Wiester handled you. What they did to you, they did to 2 other pj’s. Revealed the name of the church of one pj, and the name of an alleged friend of another pj.

      If you don’t mind my asking, just how did they know you had a FB account?

      Does the creator, Mark Zuckerberg & Co. warn FB account holders of the possibility of becoming under scrutiny?

      And do you by chance happen to know West Robinson?

      FB has been around for what, about 8 years? I’m thinking of the millions of people across the world who have FB accounts whose postings may well be brought under close scrutiny should they find themselves in similar situations.

      Anyway, I am so glad you stopped by, and hope you’ll hang around for a while.

      • Trained Observer says:

        How did defense know who had a Facebook account? All those unpaid interns needed something to do! FB’ers need to keep their setting limited so that non-friends can’t see. If receiving a summons, it might pay to edit their timelines.

      • Sleuth says:

        @Trained Observer

        You’re right. Several of us have noticed O’Dirty’s “Robert Palmer Girls” steady digging away.

        IIRC, each time it happened, he walked over to where they were and they handed him a piece of paper.

        But if this is in fact,”The Real E-7″ posting here, I’m hoping he will at least respond to one of the messages posted to him.

    • DruDo says:

      Jerry, I have family in Seminole Co. who are outraged by how you have been treated. They, among many others, applaud you for your honesty and courage. The defense has long made every effort to derail this trial and have sunk to new lows in their slander and smear of the victim and others. Those familiar with the workings of central FL., and in particular, Sem. Co., are well aware of how their “justice” system operates and it’s not pretty, but, hopefully, in this case, the truth will prevail and those who stand for Trayvon Martin will have peace that the right thing was done. O’Mara is a disgrace and beyond slimy, so, hopefully, his day will come in the form of, at the very least, legal sanctions, and/or being disbarred. I don’t really see that happening, as, unfortunately, in that area in particular, it seems the worse they are, the more they get away with. You have very right to stand up for yourself and I think there are more people than you imagine who support you.

    • concernedczen says:

      Welcome Jerry.

    • Malisha says:

      Dear Jerry:

      Welcome! (I just saw your post now — sorry)

      Your story is fascinating. Accusing people of doing exactly what the perpetrator is doing (Fogen [what we call George Zimmerman] called his victim “the suspect” and insisted that “the suspect” made a vicious unprovoked deadly attack upon him while he was innocently wandering around minding his own business, an exact reversal of the truth) is par for the course for this defendant (who became a defendant by being an accused citizen) and his attorneys (who became his attorneys voluntarily) who blames everything on his victim (who became his victim involuntarily).

      I hope you stay with us during the trial and keep illuminating us. How lucky that you posted here!

    • whonoze says:

      Just a note of caution here. We don’t know (BRD) that the person posting here is the real E-7. If Mr. Counelis intends to sue MOM for defamation, one would think his attorney would advise him NOT to post on pro-TM sites. Such posts would tend to confirm that he was indeed a ‘stealth’ juror, and of course truth is a defense for libel. A GZ supporter would have motive to impersonate Mr. Counelis and place posts that would undermine his potential lawsuit in various spots on the Web.

      I’m not saying the post above is fake for sure, just pointing out that nothing in these anonymous text-based forums can be taken at face value on mere faith.

      • cielo62 says:

        whonoze~ agree 100%, although I did welcome, and will welcome any new posters. Maybe a word to wise is all that is needed here…

      • Xena says:

        @whonoze.

        A GZ supporter would have motive to impersonate Mr. Counelis and place posts that would undermine his potential lawsuit in various spots on the Web.

        IIRC, last week he posted on another blog and others and myself responded. To the best of my knowledge (I subscribed to follow-up comments), he has not responded.

        Your perception is very logical.

      • Rachael says:

        Excellent point

        • Xena says:

          Maybe I should add a disclaimer. O’Mara could have handled presenting that info in a manner that did not require Judge Nelson to read out loud in court the title of the FB page and date of the comment.

      • Sleuth says:

        @whonoze

        I agree, and also responded to him.

        YOU SAID: “…..just pointing out that nothing in these anonymous text-based forums can be taken at face value on mere faith.’

        You’re right. Just like anyone can set up a FB account in anyone’s name.

        Interestingly, I suspected zidiots were posting and lurking here since jury selection began.

        Well, if it’s not the real E-7, the isp address can be captured if the real one needs it to prove it was not him, at least I’m hoping he can.

      • Tzar says:

        I see you completely

      • Sleuth says:

        @cielo62

        Great!

      • ic2fools says:

        Finally, I can’t agree more whonoze. Why would E7 jepordize an ‘impending’ lawsuit posting in social media about the case? An in various places at that. I find that out of place.

        Also,I have no apologies for not giving a warm welcome. A bit too soon for me. With all events surrounding this person I personally have no desire to discuss what occurred at court and after. Not being ficious, this is not the time,, Fogen supporters have been devious infecting poison by any means necessary.

        I learned the hard way too about clicking links posted by those whom I don’t know of. No telling what is waiting to infect our computers, one click is all it takes.

        Defense is scouring social media for anything to present to court and media regarding the jurors and the case. Last thing they need are any ideas to help them do their job or get any info they can twist and use negatively. I down right don’t trust defense and their client, his family and his supporters. That is my opinion.

      • ic2fools says:

        @Xena

        A disclaimer is a good idea.

        • Xena says:

          @ic2fools.

          A disclaimer is a good idea.

          Thank you. The manner in which O’Mara made sure that info was stated in open court was absolutely wrong. However, if there is an E7 impersonator, they are also wrong and if the real person, demonstrate politeness by responding to week-old replies on the other blog.

      • ic2fools says:

        @Xena

        Thank you. The manner in which O’Mara made sure that info was stated in open court was absolutely wrong. However, if there is an E7 impersonator, they are also wrong and if the real person, demonstrate politeness by responding to week-old replies on the other blog.

        Your welcome. O’mara truly did make sure it was stated. Last I would want to see is this blog or any of the other members blogs we follow closely is brought up like what we saw last week. Defense is williing and ready to use what they can to negatively disrupt court, smear anyone regardless of backlash. What we have here and the other members blogs do not need any negative representation that the like O’mara would bring. Because ya’ll are doing an excellent job, those haters will do what they can to shut it down.

        As far as E7 is concerned impersonator or not. Look back at what happened after he was dismissed. E7 returned to court, tried to talk to potential jurors and the court barred him from the courthouse all together.

        Now what was he thinking, is sure wasn’t about Justice for Trayvon, it was for the other jurors and himself. How is that helping Justice for Trayvon? It is not.

        Bringing disruptive negativity to the proceedings in the guise as a Pro Trayvon Supporter to inform other jurors. Was wrong regardless of what O’mara did to him, this is not about him in the least. It was up to him to be honest, if he had forgotten then so be it. But to return and and try to enter an area he had been dismissed from was not in the least bit reasonable thinking.

        So I ask myself, why would I want to interact with E7 in social media the weekend before opening arguments to discuss what happened. I don’t, discussing what happened with E7 won’t change what happened, that information is not revlevant to the case. It is distracting from where the case is right now. Very distracting. It can be discussed at another time or better yet read about somewhere else.

        Let’s not forget Judge Deborah instructions to the 10 jurors. No social media in any form or fashion. It has been already said there will be a watchful eye of juror activities, and I believe that has begun, especially now.

        Thanks for reading my long reply.

        • Xena says:

          @ic2fools.

          Thanks for reading my long reply.

          Read, appreciated, and makes lots of sense.

          • ic2fools says:

            Thanks my dear friend,

          • Xena says:

            @ic2fools. 🙂

            MSNBC, now, Rev. Sharpton, talking about today’s hearing and the jury selection.

          • ic2fools says:

            Ooo thanks, on my way right now!

            follow….

          • ic2fools says:

            1 year 3 months 27 days, here we are today just a few days from opening statements.

          • Xena says:

            @ic2fools.

            1 year 3 months 27 days, here we are today just a few days from opening statements.

            Just to think — after Judge Lester was removed from the case, O’Mara said he would be ready for a SYG hearing early “next year.” Yeah. Right.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            The “Stand Your Ground” hearing was rolled… into the gutter! 😆

          • ic2fools says:

            Well damn! Race neutral concerns

          • Xena says:

            @ic2fools.

            Well damn! Race neutral concerns

            Imagine that!! But the Zimmerman wasp nest will now say that Marcia Clark is a “racist traitor.”

          • ic2fools says:

            Well now I C they have saran wrapped their racist views and that plastic does leak.. oozeing leaking out everywhere.

            one juror asked why Trayvon was out so late. 7:16pm is late? Well ya know black folks shouldn’t be out after dark now should they.

            once evidence is presented and it does not change that jurors view, then there is nothing will ever change that type thinking.

          • cielo62 says:

            ic2fools~ maybe she heard that this happened late at night, OR she assumed it happened late at night because the pictures shown of the scene are always dark. Of course, in rain and in february, nights come quicker. BUT it is NOT “late” for anything.

            ________________________________

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Changing their mind is not the problem. Their problem will be to find some thing submitted at trial that backs up what they want to argue in deliberations. So, if they want to tell other jurors that they don’t think Trayvon was such a nice kid, they’re going to have to point to what they heard in the trial to prove it. If they point to the smoke, the pot plant or the picture of a gun, the other jurors will remind the juror that they can’t use that and must forget it. If they refuse to let go of it, the foreman can report them to the judge.

          • ic2fools says:

            Yep, Omara gave a clue even then he was talkin out of of both sides his mouth. One says SYG Hearing and the other side his mouth said, this is not SYG case. ya think SaranWraps cared, ahh noo. they don’t care about fogen, they care about their lifestyle of hate, races and, gender

        • cielo62 says:

          ic2fools~ Thank you for articulating my concerns as well. You are a wise lady. SO glad you are here!

          ________________________________

          • ic2fools says:

            No thank you such a nice compliment. I’m glad I’m here, Great group of folks.

            My mom told me, your only as good as the company you keep. I’m in great company here. I welcome your company and several other members company anytime, all up here in cyber waves.

            🙂

            Silly as I get, every once and awhile I leave my space cadet helmet on the shelf lol lol lol

      • DruDo says:

        Well, I suppose I’m perhaps too trusting, so replied to Mr. Counelis in the way I would to anyone I feel is unjustly treated. If this person is not Mr. Counelis, then have I tried to be a decent person for nothing? I don’t think so. Kindness never hurts…even for the possibly deceptive.

      • ic2fools says:

        @cielo62

        if you only knew how badly i want to believe that is truly the case.
        it was very dark when those pics were taken. and she may not know the time like we do. dear friend i will give her the benefit of doubt. we won’t know until after evidence is presented and deliberations if that is truly the case.

        in all sincerity we both have read the blog next door,CTH its’ too late for them they will never change. their ways,and views. i have tried to understand why, why do they hate and shame others because of race and gender. its not in me to feel that way. so i can’t even begin to understand. only to react as been treated, saddened disappointment..

        heartbreaking ain’t it.knowing people have that type hate and do everything to wield it as a power to to control, kill and destroy. without any type remorse.

        yes much has changed in the past 60 years,as we see it’ll take much more than that to clean that type poisoned hatred.

        • cielo62 says:

          ic2fools~ I admit, this case has really opened my eyes to the evil secret that racism is still very much alive. But not so well as it once was. It’s hiding behind anonymous monitors for the MOST part. It’s shouted down in public forums and on the innerwebs. Politicians lose races and offices over it where once before they didn’t. No, it’s not perfect, but each generation makes strides. I see it in the  search for equal rights for gays. 11 states now have marriage equality. Just 10 years ago, people were screaming for prison time for homosexuals. The changes are coming. But you are also right; some people stick to their blind hatred because that is all they know. And it is very sad. I’d be sad, if it didn’t make me sick with rage, to just bash them and remove them to the moon!

          ________________________________

      • ic2fools says:

        yep cielo62 i have learned and its’ opened my eyes too the strides that have been achieved.. yet my heart is heavy at times and is literally sickens my stomach. some pepto and positive reinforcement always helps.

        lol banishing to the moon, talk about taking it to outerspace!

        just finished reading West motion, my head is throbbing, it doesn’t make one bit of sense. so West wants to include fogens’ statements, then doesn’t that mean fogen will have to testify? i believe this motion West just wrote played right into the hands of the State thereby placing fogen on the stand to witness (testify) to those statements to be true in their entirety, each and every one regardless of the inconsistencies right? then leaving him open for the RIGHT HOOK — Cross by Bernie, the one and only De La Rionda. It’ll be a knock out and fogen is down for the count. The count 35 to life that is.

        That is if Judge Deborah grants West Motion to deny States Motion, right? But didn’t she alreay rule on that? oh digital cookies arrrgghhhh!!!!!

      • tinytruthseeker says:

        Thank you for this…. I have been having this little ick feeling since E7’s post…. I am thrilled if in fact it is him and he chose here to discuss his experience…. but something tells me your warning is accurate whonoze…. a good lawyer would be advising E7 not to be proving O’Smearas claims that E7 was in fact a potential stealth juror by hopping around the web on pro-Trayvon sites…. I do believe I will hold me opinions about his experience until we see a response to the many “welcomes” he has already received here today…

      • ic2fools says:

        @Lonnie, good to know. Sigh of relief the foreman can take that to the Judge. In order to prevent a hung jury. O’mara won’t be able to present evidence proving what he said in public is true. Those jurors will wonder and may even ask why. I hope it will be cleared up and they find out the real truth. O’mara lied about that evidence.

    • Nef05 says:

      Welcome Jerry. I read an earlier posting you wrote on another blog, detailing your situation and I was appalled. It is difficult to remember off hand comments a person may have posted a couple weeks ago, let alone months or a year. To use something like that to deliberately “out” you and defame you really is unconscionable. You also make excellent points regarding the direction simply trying to do your civic duty may lead to, in the close future. I’m sorry for what you’re going through. There are many reasons why I’d like to see O’Mara disbarred, and this is high on the list. I believe his behavior is unethical to the extreme.

    • Nellie Nell says:

      Hey Jerry! I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and am glad you are here! The entire defense team/side are nothing but a bunch of low class losers that will do anything to destroy people rather than seeking truth.

      I find you to be honest and forthright in your answering the questions that were asked of you. It is a terrible shame that MOM leaked your full name and other information. That alone tells you how low he really is. Once their client is cuffed for killing an unarmed teen, the truth will be known and those idiots will be silenced once and for all.

      Welcome to the group!

    • vickie s. votaw says:

      Welcome, I would say don’t worry because sane people know you are on the right side of history. The Professor & Crane know something about being trashed by the cth people, they may be able to give you some help.

  38. Anybody know what GZ’s former professor, a witness for the State, will talk about. Stand your ground class, maybe?

    • Sophia33 says:

      Yeah, I found it weird that a former professor would come forward.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      It’s the first I heard of this witness. I wondered the same thing. And the state is mentioning it – sounds like the guy is going to testify for the state, which is REALLY interesting.

      • We are thinking it may be likely that the professor taught a class, where the stand your ground law was covered, because GZ claimed unfamiliarity, or only passing familiarity, with the law. Anybody recall what GZ said about that?

      • Trained Observer says:

        Crane — Thought Fogen had stated (can’t remember where or to whom) that he was unfamiliar with SYG prior to shooting.

        (Transcript of his grades shows mediocrity at best in courses for his major. Wonder if Fogen ever tried to bully the professor into a better or passing grade … “Hey my daddy was a ‘judge’ (sic), and I know Norm Wolfinger and Chief Lee …”

      • bettykath says:

        Did fogen pass the class? Just cause a prof presents material doesn’t mean the student “caught” it. Maybe he slept thru the presentation. ok, i’m thinking like MOM. 😦

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Crane – You and Fred are probably right. Fogen said things about SYG and self-defense, I think, that the state will probably refute.

      • @Trained Observer:

        I am sure that poor school performance was not his fault. It was the fault of the professor, the biased media, Barack Obama, and that cruel, depraved heartless bitch Angela Corey, surely it was.

      • looolooo says:

        ……. and Eric Holder,…… don’t forget the “All Mighty and Powerful” Mr. Holder.

      • Nellie Nell says:

        Also at fault for his failing grades, the NBA, NAACP, the United Negro fund, Eric Holder and all the other organizations and people mentioned in papa Z racially charged rants in his $3 Amazon book on the Wrongful Conviction Of My Son – who by the way has not been convicted yet, but it sure seems as though papa Z knows he will be because he is guilty and finally will be held accountable for his actions!

      • Rachael says:

        OMG, when he smirks and says in response to no witnesses to the shooting SMIRK “correct, except myself.”

        I’m gonna barf.

        It just gets worse each time I see/hear it.

        • Xena says:

          @Rachael.

          OMG, when he smirks and says in response to no witnesses to the shooting SMIRK “correct, except myself.”

          There is something very sinister for why he would say that, and say it in such a manner that sounds as if he’s congratulating and proud of himself.

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena~ you’re probably right. He WAS congratulating himself, thinking there were no witnesses and that he would get away with murder.

            ________________________________

          • Xena says:

            @cielo62.

            He WAS congratulating himself, thinking there were no witnesses and that he would get away with murder.

            Days gone by — O’Mara had not gone over the evidence and now that he has, he wants to censure the State so that facts are not presented at trial, and get in inadmissible statements so GZ won’t have to take the witness stand. That’s not working out for him.

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena~ Judge Nelson knows her courtroom protocol. I believe all experts will be allowed and that hearsay will NOT be allowed. BOTH of those will help sink gz.

            ________________________________

          • Xena says:

            @cielo62. Yep! GZ dug his own ditch. His attorneys running after Zimmerman wasp nest conspiracy theories caused him to fall into it, and now their lack of building a defense for him is piling on the dirt. West handles the shovel.

      • Tzar says:

        Hannity was so surprised that he immediately gave him a chance to clean up, but niuuuuooope

        HANNITY: A lot of this case legally — and we are going to get to Mark in a few minutes here and ask him about a lot of legal aspects, because there are so many of them in this case — has to do with stand your ground. You have heard a lot about it. And I was just curious, prior to this night, this incident, had you even heard stand your ground?

        ZIMMERMAN: No, sir.

        HANNITY: You have never heard about it before?

        ZIMMERMAN: No.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Hannity: Had you even heard … Stand Your Ground?

        Fogen: Shakes his head ‘no’ with a shit-eating smiley-smirk.

      • towerflower says:

        It was on Hannity, he said he never heard about it before that night. I threw the bs flag because the state gives you several pamphlets about gun laws and SYG was one.

      • towerflower says:

        One of the things I would like to know from his professor was if the John Orr case was discussed. He was a Tampa area man who claimed SYG and said he was ambushed from behind, had his head repeatedly slammed on the concrete an d was being smothered by his attacker right before he stabbed him numerous times killing him. He did not win his SYG either, he had the victim in a head lock while he stab him and no injuries. It’s happened just a few months before TM’s death and I wonder if this case was discussed in his classes.

    • Rachael says:

      Oh but Crane-Station, how ever could that be? GZ didn’t know anything about SYG, remember.

      Oh wait, I forgot. He has memory problems. Can’t remember he’s carrying a gun – even though he knows he carries it all the time except to work.

      • ay2z says:

        He also has a unique medical condition on his right hip that causes no feeling through layers of fat, even when Kel-Tec 9 hits bone. (his soft holster didn’t look like it was padded with memory high density foam or anything).

        He didn’t realize when he rolled around being beaten that his gun was poking him, and heck, it could even go off if it was shifted around under his body enough, no safety and all.

      • Oh that’s right. What is the name of that condition where, memory improves over time? Pathological lying? Oh, that’s right.

        Pffffffffft.

        He knew all about stand your ground, and that professor is going to tell it, during the trial.

      • Soulcatcher says:

        @ Rachael,

        You mean “The Gun.”

        • ” even though he knows he carries it all the time except to work.”

          He must have never heard of workplace shootings…….or the term going “postal”………Works safe….just gotta watch out for those skipping thugs……F’n POS

          HOODIES UP

      • KittySP says:

        Rachel says, “Can’t remember he’s carrying a gun – even though he knows he carries it all the time except to work.”

        which of his many versions was it that GZ claims he ‘forgot’, he had the gun? I ask because, re-watching the video re-enactment while he was still riding with investigators, think it was at the CH and they asked if he had his weapon on him at the time and GZ replied, ‘Yes’. But I didn’t finish watching so don’t recall if later in the video is when he claimed not remembering having the gun.

      • towerflower says:

        When I heard him say he carried everywhere except work, I questioned his thinking. He even took it with him when he mentored those kids, totally irresponsible.

    • ay2z says:

      Anyone have a course list by name that was included in the ‘Associate’s degree’ forgen failed to get because he failed astrology…. err, astronomy, either way his extraterrestrial orbital bodys were not aligned right for him to be able to pass.

      Fogen told SErino he knew about (quote from memory but m sure it’s right) “Justifiable Homicide or…[audio fades] ”

      Also there is the coverage of SYG etc, as his firearms expert buddy told cameras… “he knew all that” from his firearms permit process.

      • Xena says:

        @ay2z.

        Anyone have a course list by name that was included in the ‘Associate’s degree’ forgen failed to get because he failed astrology…. err, astronomy, ..

        http://zimmerman-vs-martin.blogspot.com/2013/04/gzs-school-records-college-when-he.html

        My son had a criminal justice class and the professor actually had the class watch some videos of hearings in GZ’s case to discuss “justifiable homicide,” and Miranda.

      • Momma says:

        CJJ 2002 Juvenile Delinquency/Grade D
        CCJ 1020 Introduction to Criminal Justice/Grade D
        PLA 2303 Criminal Litigation/Grade A
        CJE 2600 Criminal Investigation/Grade B
        CCJ 2618 Evil Minds-Violent Predators/Grade C

        From the course descriptions, one could expect that Fogen would have a thorough knowledge of how to construct a bogus story that would satisfy the SPD, IMHO.

        http://www.seminolestate.edu/catalog/courses/

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          His trouble was he knew it too well. What was happening was, because he was simply making things up, and merely attributing what he did to Trayvon, then claiming Trayvon’s actions as his own, he had no real “anchor” that could keep the story straight.

          If you live through a terrifying five minute event, for example, you will remember the elements of it, even if you get them out of order, it only takes a little bit of thought (first this happened then that happened), to put them back in order. Because these things really did happen, the element of time, pretty nearly takes care of itself.

          If you don’t know how long it too, for someone to move from one place to another, and you can’t remember the order. The fact is that if the distance is measured and a reasonable pace assumed, there will be time in the five minute interval for this to have occurred. Because foggens story is made up of whole cloth, He winds up claiming that things happened for which there simply does not exist enough time to have them occur.

          That’s even before we get to the problem created by his knowledge of law. That problem is that, each time the questions are formulated differently, to focus on another area of the events, he has to alter the story to obscure a different set of rules and laws he violated. He can’t say that someone called him to report a strange person in the neighborhood, even if they did, because he knows that NW rules, do not allow him to go hunt that person down. If he received the call at home, for example, he should have simply called NEN from home as well and gone on with his business.

          He knew that, thus he had to fabricate a story to get himself out of the house = “weekly shopping trip”. He had to be told that Trayvon was in the Mail kiosk, or else he probably wouldn’t have found him. He didn’t see him on his first pass at the mail kiosk, so he turned away and appeared to be heading for home. When he suddenly stops, turns back and goes directly to the mail kiosk a second time, and this time he sees Trayvon.

          Obviously, had he been on his way to shop, he could not have seen Trayvon in the mail kiosk — because it took him two direct passes to find him there, if he could have seen Trayvon in the kiosk from RVC or at the turn to go out the front gate, he obviously would not have needed two passes at the mail kiosk — so he should have, uneventfully. gone out the front gate to the store.

          So, because he knew the rules and the law so well, each restated question forced him to revise his story to meet his new perceived legal status.

      • Lynn says:

        This is an older article but pay attention to the line directly below the video…
        http://thegrio.com/2012/05/24/did-sanford-police-know-george-zimmerman/

      • Lynn says:

        “Zimmerman, who was studying criminal justice at Seminole State College (where Tooley’s eventual replacement, Chief Bill Lee, was a law enforcement instructor,) …”

    • willisnewton says:

      One assumes he is either speaking to issues of not graduating but claiming to Serino that he had a degree, or more likely that the SYG and self defense issues were covered in a class. GZs self serving demonstrably false narrative included all te hallmarks of a rehearsed self defense narrative including the verbal death threat and fear of death, and was pretty much textbook “what a person needs to say to get let off”

      If this is what the professor will speak to its a powerful part of the whole picture the prosecution can paint. The “demonstrably false narrative ” is going to be presented. HOW it presented is important IMO

      • Malisha says:

        Remember Serino asked Fogen: “Do you have any idea how this can come out?”

        Fogen answers: “Justifiable homicide?”

    • Tzar says:

      Hey Crane, check this out

      http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2012/07/18/exclusive-george-zimmerman-breaks-silence-hannity?page=1
      HANNITY: A lot of this case legally — and we are going to get to Mark in a few minutes here and ask him about a lot of legal aspects, because there are so many of them in this case — has to do with stand your ground. You have heard a lot about it. And I was just curious, prior to this night, this incident, had you even heard stand your ground?

      ZIMMERMAN: No, sir.

    • Nef05 says:

      I was wondering about that myself, C-S. Glad you asked. I’ve seen many great answers. At first I thought maybe there might have been some issues regarding “boundaries” or “bullying”, since we know fogen has very poor social skills.

      Now, I’m wondering if fogen “said” something to the class, after 2/26. He didn’t get kicked out until a few weeks after this happened, right? I can’t see him letting the opportunity to portray himself as the “hero” slip by. OR, possibly he told the professor “what happened”, and we have yet ANOTHER version of what happened that night.

      We know fogen has told at least 8 versions:
      6 to police (1 written, 3 audio, 2 video)
      Hannity
      whatever he told family that made his dad write the letter to OS saying fogen never got out of the car.

      These don’t include what he told his co-workers, friends, his PA, and I submit – his professor and possibly classmates. We know he can’t keep his mouth shut to (literally) save his life.

      This is not opposite what you say about SYG, it’s in addition to. Who, at the school, would fogen like to impress with his “self defense” more than the professor who taught it in his class? Who could “understand and relate” to him? It would be just like fogen to brownnose the professor with his wonderful tale of how what he learned in his class was utilized in real life, like it put them on some kind of equal footing. IJS

      • Tzar says:

        his dad write the letter to OS saying fogen never got out of the car.

        you go a link for that?
        I missed that one 🙂
        I remember early on the OS or some other outfit was saying that Trayvon sucker punched Zimmerman as he was getting back into his car

      • towerflower says:

        At least one coworker has a statement in, he told the coworker he was mugged.

  39. Trained Observer says:

    ON TRIAL DURATION: Without separation of which side presents what witness in what order (and without a clue on actual witness lineups, as opposed to likely haystacking from both sides), I don’t see how this ordeal for Trayvon’s parents can take anything less than three weeks, more likely a month.

    Not even with JN’s efficiency, and BDLR’s likely adherence to the professor’s recommended KISS.

    Potty breaks, lunches, sidebars, witness arrival delays and other unanticipated snags eat up time.

    Below is a convoluted mess, I admit, but it’s a start for FauxMcCoy’s new spreadsheet. (Hello, Faux:)

    Please consider:

    * Day One: Opening arguments, housekeeping.

    Following Days in no particular order:

    * Expert Wits on audio/plus playing of tapes
    * Eye/ear witnesses for shooting — Jeremy, John, etc.
    * Ear witness on phone: Dee-Dee
    * Peripheral wit like 7-11 clerk on “swaying” or not “swaying”
    * Character wit for Trayvon — Mom, Dad, brother, a teacher, etc.
    * Character wits depicting Fogen as sterling citizen and altar boy — Osterman, Taffee, Z-fam members
    * Character wits on Fogen as thug — Landlady stiffed on rent, cousin alleging molestation, harrassed co-worker, former fiancee on assault, dog-kicking, etc.
    * * Mrs. Fogen’s recollections of that night, etc.
    * SPD on scene wits: Smith, Lee plus EMS, etc.
    * SPD at cop shop: Serino, Singleton, etc.
    * Wits at med clinic — physician’s assistant on snout injury, other boo-boos
    * Wits on whether Wolfinger was on site or on phone that night, subsequently
    * Testimony on Fogen’s various versions (this could take days!)
    * Possible testimony from the shooter himself.
    * Showing of Hannity interview highlights: No regrets, god’s plan, no time to reflect while having lotsa time to think, and other duhs.
    * Testimony on GPS tracking for phones of Trayvon, Fogen, Mrs. Fogen, possibly others, etc.
    * Testimony from SPD Neighborhood Watch organizer, HOA rep
    * Testimony on pre/post shooting texts, phone call
    * Closing arguments, instructions to jury

    Plus another couple or three days for deliberations and rendering of verdict.

    • ay2z says:

      Do you think the state will bring up ‘character’ so the cell phone pics will come into play, if only for ‘authentication’?

    • Trained Observer says:

      Forgot (among no doubt many other possibilities):

      * Playing of the NEN call … “we don’t need you to do that,” plus Fogen’s other hit parade of 911s and NENs.

    • Tzar says:

      * Character wits depicting Fogen as sterling citizen and altar boy — Osterman, Taffee, Z-fam members

      oh please oh please let them try

      • Rachael says:

        LOL – can you imagine character witnesses for the character witnesses? Osterman, Taffee and Z-fam member?

        Where would you even start with say Taffee? Would anyone really want him for a character witness?

    • willisnewton says:

      Don’t forget clubhouse videos
      Also map GZ drew on showing his car on TTL facing mailbox

      And GZs testimony in witness stand and the five days of cross examination to uncover all his lies

    • Tasha Harris says:

      You forgot forensics, ballistics, coroner, etc. BDLR said there would be death pics.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Tasha — Definite add-ons. At least couple of days for those, right?

        (West, being West, may want to dispute whether Trayvon is really deceased in the death pic, and might argue that he died while coroner was mishandling the body. Why, had the ambulance/hearse driver only noticed vitality, Trayvon could have been well enough to skip on home.)

    • Nellie Nell says:

      And God forbid West does any talking, it could stretch out for 2 more months with all his hissy fits!

  40. KittySP says:

    Watching this entire process unfold…I have several observations.

    Due to his parents constant intervening, GZ has not been made to be legally, or morally accountable for his actions…which has lead him to where he is today.

    GZ and brother both suffer from ‘self-imposed’ victim complexes. They both willingly choose to involve themselves in situations that they needn’t be. But want to blame others for their plights. Listening to RZ Jr last night on Dr. Drew, and his in court interview last week, he relishes in speaking about all the alleged threats against him and family. Yet, he can’t seem to keep his face from appearing in front of a mic and camera, to save the very life he claims to be in fear for! Well, just like GZ self-appointing himself as NW captain, RZ Jr. has become the family’s self-appointed spoke person. But he’s taken it far beyond speaking on behalf of a loved one that you may feel is being tired unjustly, to making out right slanderous and inflammatory statements about the victim, his family, and others.

    MOM and West, these two have hitched their wagons to this train wreck of a case and are headed for a major collision. I sense they were initially attracted for the potential celebrity and fame high profile cases can bring, but sadly, they have a client that is not the ‘ideal’ client, in sense that he he’s not some upstanding guy that happened on an actual crime taking place and had the living daylights beaten out of him, with medical treatment, records, etc to support it, yet still had charges brought against him. They are left to defend a person with proven credibility issues, is broke, and has no real sense of accountability. I get the feeling they’ve given GZ a false sense of hope in winning this case…when they know the evidence and certainly the odds are not stacked I his favor.

    • willisnewton says:

      I think MOM felt he could win the case initially by harnessing the power of social media somehow. Remember the Facebook site? Recall GZs personal site? A defendant who could raise six figures in less than a week SEEMED to be a popular guy.

      I think West thought he could break new ground here by using the same right wing echo chamber tactics that brought is the war in Iraq on false pretenses.

      • abbyj says:

        Bingo, willis. Mom heard that “ka-ching” of those early donations, and they were music to his ears. I’m convinced that he honestly believed that GZ WAS a popular guy with a huge following among the racist & gun nut lobbies, and that they would continue to pull in major loot.

        Wasn’t it during the Hannity interview that GZ shot himself in the foot by blaming his pursuit and murder of Trayvon on God himself? It seemed that donations, even from the nutcakes, took a dramatic dive then. It was around then that the donations dried up and GZ wasn’t such a popular guy any longer.

        • cielo62 says:

          abbyj~ I think there were many factors involved in the donation drop-off. Yeah, blaming God was one, but let’s face it; gz’s own massive stupidity is what people finally saw and said WTF!? This guy is an idiot! He was in solitary confinement and yet had/did not have time to reflect? NO regrets, not even fake ones? I think this is when ANY BODY with ANY brains said that gz is NOT a poster boy for self-defense. They cut him loose after that.

          ________________________________

      • KittySP says:

        I do agree they were drawn in by financial aspects. Admittedly, Ive never gone to the fb site, or his personal site. I have visited GZLC early on when initial influx of evidence was coming in. In fact, I’ve never visited sites that solely support Trayvon, or GZ…didn’t watch the Hannity interview, or listen to the jail house calls. I want my feelings/opinions regarding this case to be based on the evidence the state collected and not emotions that would surface as result of viewing/listening to him outside of court. My position is, I don’t know GZ or Trayvon personally, I’m in no position to judge GZ the man(sinner)…I can judge his actions (sins) on the night of 2/26.

      • abbyj1 says:

        @cielo, Agreed. It really was not just one single, pivotal moment, but the convergence of that Hannity interview and continuing abject stupidity on GZ’s part. It was the obscene lack of remorse, the gleeful heaping of blame on a dead kid. It was the parasitic family putting up one Begging Site after another with their pity pity stories. It just curdled the stomachs of most decent people–even those who favored gun rights.

        GZ had the chance to play the public’s sympathy for a brief window of time, but instead he always found a way to make people loathe him even more. His actions put his supporters and donors in a bad light that they hadn’t bargained for. You are so right that GZ just bottomed out as their poster boy. Of no use to them now, and I don’t see any more windfalls of cash coming GZ’s way any time soon.

    • Sophia33 says:

      Excellent observations on his background. It’s always someone else’s fault.

      • abbyj says:

        Sophia, “It’s always someone else’s fault . . .”

        Always blaming others is one of the eight major markers of the psychopath (and you only need three of the eight to qualify). No surprises here. A family of psychopaths, IMO, unscrupulous takers and perpetrators with no conscience.

      • parrot says:

        @abbyj

        “… eight major markers of the psychopath (and you only need three of the eight to qualify…”

        That’s interesting. I’ll have to google that and find out more.

    • Sleuth says:

      and

      @willisnewton

      and

      @abbj

      Too bad they didn’t pay attention to Dennis Baxley(?) the Florida legislator who authored the SYG law.

      I think it was the end of March 2012 or the beginning of April 2012 when he said the confessed murderer did not have a leg to stand on if he was planning a SYG defense.

      He said the SYG law was not applicable in his case. Amazingly, he said this although the evidence had not even started coming in.

      Also in agreement was former Florida Governor, Jeb Bush, republican candidates Newt Grinwich, Romney, and Santorum(?), and IIRC they are all members of the NRA.

  41. willisnewton says:

    What a morning! Judge Nelson laid down the LAW – now lets see her revoke bond and sanction MOM – he and George can prepare for Monday in jail together!

    • ay2z says:

      what a plan!

      The only reason MOM brought up sanctions and the state issue, was to detail it once again, in front of captive audience of reporters and camera persons. He was reminding the jury, by way of whatever information will seep through before the juror is able to stop it.

      He’s pushing into unethical ground, and it shows. He’s shown how dirty he will be. If he wanted this issue dealt with and if JN wasn’t doing it for him until after trial, why didn’t he appeal her decision to not deal with it before trial if it’s so important?

      • Tzar says:

        He’s pushing into unethical ground

        that train came and left

      • pat deadder says:

        Omg This blog is a godsend for me.I’m at work during hearings.I’ve typed up every single comment on here that has made me laugh till tears are running down my cheeks so when I get worried about outcome of this I just go to my list of funny comments.So far 200 pages.Was omara trying to get the pictures of the pot plant and stuff into evidence is that what he was yammering on about relaxing the evidence.

        • cielo62 says:

          pat~ I think he wants to release the videos where gz is claiming to have shot in self defense, so that gz WON’T have to take the stand, say it himself and get cross examined. Sneaky way around to having self defense being introduced buy without gz saying it himself in the box.

          ________________________________

    • Sleuth says:

      @willisnewton

      YES SHE DID! I guess she was trying to redeem herself after that disaster of a jury selection. She got a little confused at times. Let’s just say, it was not one of her better days.

    • abbyj1 says:

      @willis. Awesome suggestion.

    • Ms.X says:

      I really wish she WOULD lay down the law! She is infinitely patient-WAAAAAY more than I would ever be. I think she is sensitive about the other judge being kicked off the case. I’m sure that was a great humiliation for him. I think she wants to seem fair beyond a shadow of a doubt. But I also think the defense is punking her & they need to be stopped. Getting the other judge kicked off gave the defense too much cockiness. They aren’t deferential enough toward her or the rules. I hope she will stop putting up with their mess & disrespect.

  42. Two sides to a story says:

    So, does anyone know if the Frye decision that JN says she’s making this afternoon – will there be a public announcement, or will we have to wait until Monday to find out?

  43. bettykath says:

    I missed it all. Hope there’s a video up soon.

    • I would like to see it as well, does anybody have a link?

      • Xena says:

        Trent has up the video, but the sound is low and I can barely hear what is said. We have a severe thunderstorm watch so I might have to go offline anyway. 😦

      • 84 F and a gorgeous morning here in Kentucky Xena. Please take good care. (I am storm phobic. No joke)

        • Xena says:

          Severe thunderstorm warning until 11:15 that was just upped to 1 p.m. The high wind and downpour seemed to go through pretty fast but it might start up again. Still some rumblings of thunder but the wind has calmed down. It’s still pretty dark. When we have thunder storms, I close the blinds in my bedroom, pull the drapes and turn on the radio. That seems to be the only thing that keeps the dog calm.

          • I can sort of handle the thunderstorm warnings by twisting the blinds open and shut, but for tornado warnings, I put on the motorcycle helmet and hide in the bathroom with the parrot.

            I have already come to terms with being torn from that stupid little worthless bathroom we hide in, ripped to bits and slung to the nearest cornfield for the starving vultures.

            Someone on another thread pointed out that the vultures have to eat too and I agree and so, maybe it won’t be all for naught.

          • Xena says:

            @Crane-Station. I have a basement but always have to refresh my memory on where the shut-off valves are for the gas, electric, and water. I have a battery-operated radio in the basement, but would like to move one of the televisions into the basement too. It’s like a family room, even have a fridge.

            Although I stocked it with bottle water, my son took the water out into the garage and filled the fridge door shelves with various wines. So, no matter what happens, if I drink enough wine, I won’t care. LOL!!

          • cielo62 says:

            Crane~ in some cultures, that is called a “Sky Funeral.” (Tibetan) The body is dissected and left out for the elements and the birds. Afterwards, any bones are ground up and thrown to the winds. Aside from cremation, I like this method. Return all my parts to nature from whence I came.

            ________________________________

          • I agree. I did not know that, it sounds cool.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Trent has one at stateoftheinternet, if you don’t remind his remarks.

  44. Deborah Moore says:

    I have to admit a face-palm moment yesterday, when I realized I was on the wrong thread. I didn’t realize Fred put up a new one.
    S’oh, d’oh!
    And, now this morning I realize we have a crane-station AND a Rachel. So sorry. If I rest up and calm down over the weekend, maybe I’ll be in better shape for Monday.

    • There you are, thank goodness, as I live and breathe. I was fixing to hunt you down like a dawg!:)

      But anyway, please take a well-deserved weekend off, rest up, and we look forward to your fonts on Monday!

      Thank you!

      • Deborah Moore says:

        Hi, honey. You can’t believe how embarrassed I was when I saw the other thread. Sitting here all by myself with a red face. Ha.
        But, I did read thru the newer thread, and at least not doing so LIVE, I might have less chance at a higher blood pressure, as you and some others were worried about.
        Happy Weekend to you and Fred and All. Till then, Hugs.

    • Sleuth says:

      @Deborah Moore

      Don’t feel bad, I did the same thing yesterday. Stayed glued to the Frye hearing, not realizing a new thread for the Frye hearing had been started, silly me just kept right on posting my comments even through O’Dirty’s press conference he held afterwards.

      • Deborah Moore says:

        Thanks, Sleuth. That makes me feel not so D’oh.
        If I do something kinda silly, I don’t mind owning up to it. :O)
        I’m not blond for nuthin’.

  45. SearchingMind says:

    Professor said:

    “During the argument, he [West] was jacked up on nicotine from chewing tobacco and swallowing the juice. You could see him swallowing, moving the plug around with his tongue and parking it between his cheek and gum”.

    This is the best joke of the trial so far! I just can’t stop laughing. West may not know this, but he is the best comedian I have seen in real Court.

    • ay2z says:

      Three hot dogs and a chew.

      Mouth cancer might get him before trial is over, if he keeps this up.

    • ay2z says:

      Remeber seeing a defense attorney try to hide his Red Bull as he gulped it down at the table in another high profile? Later they put it in cups.

      Maybe he will slip up and spit instead of swallow. How dangerous is tobacco if you not only get it ingested through mouth tissues, but then add it in volume to the digestive system? That must have some cumulative effect and show up in increased heart rate? Must.

      Could yesterday’s symptoms clearly shown by West, flushed face and going pale, be simply a symptom of caffeine overload and physical symptoms of stress?

    • Oh no he didn’t write that in a post! Oh, no he….

    • abbyj says:

      SM, Yeah, I loved that one, too. The description was just so visual and sensory that I could see the wad of tobacco swishing about West’s mouth with his tongue, see the dark-juiced saliva he was masticating it all with, and smell the stink of the tobacco plug. And then . . .”parking it between his cheek and gum.” The Prof really gets high points on that one. Vivid, man. Thanks, Prof–a classic moment in gut-heaving cruelty by truthful observation.

  46. HereslookingatYou says:

    understandable…typo

  47. @NBCNews, on the transcript:

    “Sorry, we do not have a transcript available for this video at this time.”

    Chicken? Braaaack bok bok bok bok braaaaaak

    LOL

    • (I am so mean it takes your breath away. I’ve already packed my bag, for the bus ride to Hell)

      • Rachael says:

        Can I sit next to you? Seems we are headed for the same destination.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        LOL! In Tibetan Buddhism, there are peaceful and wrathful deities – perhaps you’ll pass muster and go to one of their pure lands!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        PS – I may be on the same bus, I confess. Bad thoughts, bad thoughts! : /

        • I often hear, ‘God don’t like ugly,’ and I know that, but I openly confess, this case often brings out the worst in me.

          I guess what concerns me about this case on another level is, will it or will it not, be legal to execute people of color, because of preconceived notions, and simply say, ‘Hey man, I was afraid of him’? That’s a scary thought, and this case is not the only one pending. How about that freak show Michael Dunn, who fired into a car killing a teen, because of music, and who turned around and claimed self-defense. <—-BTW, (and here is the ugly again) can you feature the likes of a 'pussy' to this extent? A low down coward, and a pussy. I think that loaded gun was an extension of his Hoo Ha, if you ask me.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Once the defense started publicly thugifying TM, it was hard to remain objective! Bad names, bad names!

        I doubt Satan would want me either. There must be a place for us somewhere!

  48. Hereslookingatyou says:

    Question to the professor or anyone that knows. If Dr. Reich’s is allowed to testify , the fact that his report was not complete at the start of trial make a difference? or will that portion just have to made available to the defense with time to digest it and then it will still be allowed in, in it’s entirety? I hope that is understand TIA

    • His report is inadmissible hearsay, but he can testify expressing his opinion and support it by stating what he did and what he relied upon in forming his opinion.

      The defense would be permitted to refer to his report for impeachment during cross examination.

      Dr. Reich’s CV and list of publications is admissible.

      My answer assumes Judge Nelson rules that Dr. Reich can testify at the trial.

      This is the standard rule and procedure for any expert who testifies regarding any matter in any trial, civil or criminal.

    • SearchingMind says:

      If Reich’s science and methodology withstand the pressure of the Frye-test, Reich will testify.

      If Reich’s science and methodology do Not withstand the pressure of the Frye-test, Reich may still testify under the “pure opinion exception”.

      When Reich completes his analysis of the tapes, that analysis and its results will be submitted to the defense within 24-hours – per Judge Nelson’s Order.

  49. FactsFirst says:

    @Fred, what “IF” after fogen is found guilty West is diagnosed with Alzheimer’s or Dementia… (God forbid.. I wouldn’t wish that on my WORST enemy) Will fogen get a new trial? How would that affect this case?

    One of the most common signs of Alzheimer’s is memory loss, especially forgetting recently learned information. Others include forgetting important dates or events; asking for the same information over and over; increasingly needing to rely on memory aids (e.g., reminder notes or electronic devices) or family members for things they used to handle on their own

    http://www.alz.org/alzheimers_disease_10_signs_of_alzheimers.asp

    Symptoms of Dementia = loss of

    •Memory
    •Communication and language
    •Ability to focus and pay attention
    •Reasoning and judgment
    •Visual perception

    I’m a little worried about West too.. I want the state to win this case, but not like this… West will be in my prayers…

    • Rachael says:

      As much as I agree that West may not be well, all of those are symptoms of stress as well, and a trial of this magnitude certainly is stressful. Though I suppose that one could say that GZ was not adequately represented because his attorney could not handle the stress. I guess I’m only trying to say it may not be Alzheimers, and I’m not a praying person, but regardless the reason, West is not well and your prayers are in order.

      • ay2z says:

        Yes. No doubt stress is a huge contributing factor and that’s leaking out.

      • abbyj says:

        Great points, Rachael. West does look shaken and unsure of himself, not just “out of it.” There’s an insecure, bumbling aspect of his behavior. He just doesn’t seem confident. It may be that it is stress, as you are suggesting, compounded with what appear to be physical problems that have yet to be fully explained. But chewing on a plug of tobacco?? Gross.

        That’s as sickening as watching fogen’s Peruvian mom chomp on gum all day, as she did. She was so “at it,” that I thought she was going to blow big bubbles and pop them. Don’t people know how to behave in the courtroom?

    • Fortunately, West is not the only lawyer representing the defendant, so I doubt that his performance, however bad it may be, will result in a mistrial or reversal on appeal.

      • whonoze says:

        Yeah, MOM is the lead counsel, right? So, any role West takes at trial would have to be considered as at MOM’s consent. All things considered, it’d be hard to argue that MOM is incompetent.

        I am wondering just how much of the questioning at trial proper West is going to be handling. Especially after yesterday and today, I’m guessing not that much.

    • cielo62 says:

      IANAL but MOM is there, and is the chief attorney. I doubt anything West has or be diagnosed with after the fact will have any effect on the outcome or appeal.

  50. Sleuth says:

    Professor,

    Mantai mentioned something about Rule 403 during the Frye hearing. Can you explain that to me?

    Thanks.

    • ay2z says:

      lol, seems by common sense that ‘waste of time’ be in the definition given West’s performance again today, about the no-name, no authenticated, non-report document in part or whole, he wants the court to consider. 😉

    • Sleuth says:

      @ay2z

      Damn you good! I kinda thought that was what it meant……just wanted to be sure. Thanks, I think you’ve answered the question much to my satisfaction. 🙂

  51. Sleuth says:

    This case has taken on the subtleties of the Andrew Breitbart scandal when he falsely accused Ms. Shirley Sherrod of the Department of Agriculture of racism and discrimination towards whites.

    I think Ms. Sherrod sued him. Shortly thereafter, Breitbart died of a sudden heart attack.

    • Woow! says:

      Did Mrs.Sherrod win her case against him?

      • I suppose that in terms of the Ultimate Court, you may be tempted to assume so, seeing as how he um, dropped dead.

      • Sleuth says:

        @Woow

        I think its still being litigated. At this point, I guess its a lawsuit filed against his estate.

        What’s so interesting about this case is that the very people Breitbart falsely accused her of discriminating against, came to her defense. An elderly white couple said she had help them out a lot with their farm.

        Ms. Sherrod and her husband co-founded a group called New Communities which won a 13 million lawsuit against the Department of Agriculture, of that I think about $300 thousand dollars went to Ms. Sherrod and her husband.

        I still can’t believe the Department fired her based on “cut and spliced” video used to record a speech she was making at a NAACP event. Portions of her speech were edited to make it appear as though she admitted to discriminating against white farmers.

        • You are correct and I believe it is important to note that the conservative tree house prominently displays a photo of Breitbart in a banner at the top of the webpage proclaiming him to be an American hero and patriot to be honored and emulated.

          The CTH is a Breitbart cult and proud of it.

    • lurker says:

      I am not sure the two events (Sherrod’s suit and Breitbart’s death) were related.

      I’ve heard some conspiracy theories trying to link Breitbart’s death to some White House plot and other such foolishness.

    • Shari says:

      I’m not sure that’s what happened. I don’t think his target was Shirley. He said he didn’t like the NAACP clapping when they thought whites were being discriminated against. The government fired Shirley without looking into the matter.

      • Sleuth says:

        @Shari

        IIRC, he recorded the entire event, then released only a small portion of what she said to the media.

        He basically did what the confessed murderer accused NBC of doing when they aired only a couple of lines from the NEN call in a story one of the journalist, Burnside did.

      • cielo62 says:

        CONSIDERING that they were clapping for SOMETHING ELSE entirely, I’d say Shirley WAS his target. Good thing he’s gone. No doubt somewhere warmer than Texas in August.

      • Sleuth says:

        @cielo62

        Dang! You’re so smart and observant. That’s right, they were clapping for Ms. Shirley because they were proud of the high level of integrity she has maintained throughout her career.

        I sure wish I could find the YouTube video that I saw a while back and upload it here, except I don’t know how to do that.

        I tried to up load one yesterday, and all it posted was a link, and not the actual video.

    • Sleuth says:

      @lurker

      Oh no, I was implying at all that his death and Ms. Sherrod’s lawsuit were related, although I did read about an alleged conspiracy.

      My point was, that chick called Karma, is a bad a55 biatch.

    • Shari says:

      @Sleuth

      Yes I don’t see why people blame AB. The government should have gave Shirley a fair hearing and not used AB’s footage in their decision with Shirley. They knew he was a partisan and activist with an agenda. Especially when you consider James O’Keefe and his projects.

    • Sleuth says:

      @Crane

      My thoughts exactly. Yes, I would say Karma is the “Ultimate Court”.

    • Sleuth says:

      @Professor

      You’re absolutely right. Yes, they do have a picture of Breibart as their header on their blog. I don’t really visit that sight but stumbled upon it while looking up some information on the Trayvon Martin case. Had never heard of the sight prior to that.

      I really believe its those monkeys, swinging in trees, or from tree to tree, that have convinced the confessed murderer that if Ms.
      Shirley sued and got paid, you can do the same to NBC and ABC.

      • cielo62 says:

        Sleuth~ I think that site is where gz get’s his daily dose of delusion. Only they seem to be able to turn each defense disaster into something “brilliant” that will benefit gz. He can’t see the reality because he puts very dark blinders on.

      • Sleuth says:

        @cielo62

        BAAAAM!!!! You hit it on the nail my friend.

        Yep, him and his disaster of a legal team, over there swinging from tree limb to tree limb, getting their ques.

        What when their going to realize it’s a sho nuff set up.

    • LeaNder says:

      I read about that story not long ago, and more about Breitbart. This time it will much better stick than checking Wikipedia shortly. The CTH are Breitbart fans, aren’t they. That definitively fits.

  52. ay2z says:

    Key today, may be the revelation that MOM got from JN, about her thoughts on opening statement ‘evidence’ not coming in front of a jury.

    He claims to take the high road, using ‘profile’ issue to get this out of JN and on the record, but was he really wanting clarification for something he wants to use in opening?

    MOM brought up the Casey Anthony opening situation, that was obvious the ‘absurdity’ he was raising as example as it was so public, but the defense won the right to use their opening statement as ‘evidence’ by listing witnesses to back it up, then pulling those witnesses during trial via back room conference with the judge, their client, the state.

    Is this defense planning something along the same lines, but with more subtlety?

    Dr. Danziger was listed on the CA case, filed a report, was deposed, so the Judge and the state knew exactly what he would testify to, and that his was designed to back up, authenticate, the defendant’s story of abuse, told to the JD and to a psychologist as well. .

    E6 knows about Dr. Jeffrey Danziger, knows he was listed on the witness list, so she knows what his specialty is. E6 may bring that to contaminate the jury, not even realizing that the witness list is not evidence, nor are names on it, and the assumptions they bring by merely being listed.

    This is a double edged sword because E6 may also know enough of the CA case, to know how the opening statement of sexual abuse was never brought into evidence, and how that jury bought it hook, line and sinker.

    They made the leap, and the seed is planted for this jury to do the same.

    E6 could be MOM’s own little stealther, without even knowing it.

    • Sophia33 says:

      I hope the other jurors drag E6 along to a guilty verdict.

    • TashaTexas77048 says:

      Everyone has noticed something about E6. It’s amazing that we all picked up on the same things.

      • smokeegyrl says:

        My thinking that E-6 since she is an abuse case… Didn’t at one time they said Fogen was abused by his own mother. and that E6 can be used for a sympathy juror.

      • Sleuth says:

        IIRC, E-6 is the juror who also said she thinks its okay to profile people based on their attire/clothing.

        IOW, it was okay for the confessed murderer to profile Trayvon because of the way he was dressed.

        • The State is going to introduce evidence that the defendant profiled Trayvon and race was one of the factors in that profile.

          The State also is going to show that the factors upon which the defendant relied did not create or support a reasonable suspicion that Trayvon was committing, had committed or was about to commit a crime.

      • Dave says:

        Sleuth,
        It’s a big jump from saying that profiling is OK to saying that shooting an unarmed teenaged profilee is OK. Let’s not assume that she is immune to reason.

      • cielo62 says:

        Sleuth~ I bet once she hears that Trayvon was wearing khaki CHINOS and WHITE SNEAKERS, she will say WTF? That’s NOT “gang attire”!

      • Sleuth says:

        @Dave

        Perhaps you misunderstood the intent of my comments.

        When I wrote:

        “IOW, it was okay for the confessed murderer to profile Trayvon because of the way he was dressed.”

        I was speaking specifically about the confessed murderer, not juror E-6.

      • Sleuth says:

        @cielo62

        You are so right!

        I think she, and a couple of the other jurors are in for a lot of BIG SURPRISES as far as evidence is concerned, and without a doubt it will re-frame any incorrect or mis-information i. e. LIES they might have previously believed.

  53. LOL, Sundance is probably trying to sort things out over there; this morning must have shook the tree:

    • ay2z says:

      Thanks for the intro to some new music… nice!!

      • ay2z says:

        Woman’s Day… it’s your day… turning the tide…nobody’s slave… …. shakin’ the tree…. nothing’ any man can do….

        Reminds me of the Zen Buddism story of the Bodhi tree that relates the tree to the body, the mind to a mirror that must be kept wiped clear of dust.

        (that’s West all over…. dusty mirror, confused and unclear.)

      • ay2z says:

        (the tree image that is, not the music)

      • I could do this all day. I love music. All of it. Peter Gabriel did an amazing version of When You’re Falling, with the Afrocelt Sound System, but my favorite from him is, Don’t Give Up, with ummmm, let’s see, with Paula Cole. Yes.:

        “Don’t give up, ’cause somewhere there’s a place where we belong…rest your head, you worry too much

    • Rachael says:

      You do NOT want to smell the refuse at the outhouse:

      “The defense should argue that it is fortunate the accused was armed and fired his weapon in self defense when he did, or else the police may have arrived a minute later and been required themselves to shoot in order to stop a chimped out cannibal chewing on a mouthful of white hispanic face meat.
      Reply

      June 21, 2013 at 10:12 am

      ROTFL. Best laugh I’ve had so far today. The end of that caught me totally by surprise!
      Reply”

      ******

      I am not even going to bother looking at anything else. That did me in. No, they aren’t racist at all, are the.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Good Lord.

      • Xena says:

        Bigotvoyants.

      • I avoid it too, Rachael. But you know what? It would be kind of cool if O’Mara actually did use the commenter’s exact words, in open court, on national/international TV…

        …to let the world know just how low he has sunk.

        At least he might get that continuance he wants so bad…because he would be in jail, for contempt.

      • PYorck says:

        They are always the most vicious on days when they know deep inside that they lost again.

      • Malisha says:

        The outhouser was trying to use that “subliminal” technique to encourage folks to equate two completely different situations simply because a Black person was involved in both events. In one event a man named Rudy Eugene was shot to death by police while he was actually cannibalizing a living victim. There was no similarity between the murder of Trayvon Martin and the justifiable police homicide of Rudy Eugene; the police had come upon an actual crime scene, warned the perpetrator to stop, and then shot him to protect his victim, who lived and was taken to the hospital.

      • looneydoone says:

        zimmermn sr “isn’t racist” either, but writes letters to sunburned cracker and tree dwellers thanking them for their support and contributions.

  54. Sophia33 says:

    Yeah, well get got West and needs to keep him. I wonder if West will be able to contain himself in the hearing.

    • RobertSF says:

      Their bravado is crumbling. In all seriousness, West apparently has a good reputation as a criminal defense lawyer. And the defense has been pooh-poohing the state’s case from the start, but now that it’s time to get into the ring, their knees are going wobbly.

  55. Sleuth says:

    The Wiester’s body was certainly there, but his mind was obviously somewhere else. I sincerely empathize with him and pray that he gets medical help if he has some type of health issue. He seemed to be “roaming and wandering”. God help him.

    • Sophia33 says:

      He needs Jesus. Did you peep the moment that O’Mara was talking to him?

      • Sleuth says:

        Yeah, and he looked disappointed. I also noticed O’Dirty sort of slighting The Wiester this week, basically avoiding making eye contact with him.

      • Sophia33 says:

        Sorry I meant to ask if West will be able to contain himself in front of the jury.

    • SearchingMind says:

      The Court will rule against the defense re Frye. I am SURE West has a reasonable degree of certainty that is what’s gonna happen. The only reason a lawyer (e.g. West) tries to push (I use the word: smuggle) in evidence AFTER the last minute, is that knows in his heart that his case is going down.

      West (it seems) is getting desperate. Additionally, he comes across as personally/emotionally involved. That’s a dangerous combination.

      • Tzar says:

        What I don’t understand is why he still thinks he can intimidate the judge
        should this be blamed on JDN’s soft touch?

      • lurker says:

        I don’t understand why they are so concerned with keeping the expert testimony out. At best it ends up a wash–especially if it looks like the Frye hearing, lotta folks that no one can understand and don’td agree.

        Simply playing the tape for the jury to decide would seem to be a far worse option for them. Listening to those screams does not lead any rational person to believe that they came from the person with a gun in their hand.

        • It would not be a wash because the defense was unable to find an expert who would testify that GZ uttered the terrified shriek and none of the defense witnesses were willing to attempt an analysis.

      • SearchingMind says:

        @ Tzar

        The Court is a theater. Like in theaters, attorneys must master their diverse roles and perform them as good actors do in Hollywood. I don’t think West thinks he can intimidate JN. I think West is just being West, i.e. ill-tempered, incompetent in handling delicate court theatrics, sudden attacks (such as objections, interruptions by the Judge, etc.). He quickly gets irritated when things don’t go his way. On top of that, he can’t quickly figure out what to do next, improvise and remedy the situation as good as possible. He then gets frustrated and (IMO) unconsciously acts disrespectful.

        @ Lurker

        O’Mara and West want Reich and Owen out because the defense’s case is completely built on those screams. If the defense can make the case that it was GZ screaming, that will be a huge coup d’état and the case is over. The defense wins. Reich and Owen are a nightmare to the defense in this regard. They not only exclude GZ as the source of the screams, they identify Trayvon as the source. This is a virtual guilty verdict against GZ. I would expect the defense to up in arms regarding Reich and Owen and its gonna get worse (I would not be surprised to see a Motion to recuse if JN rules against the defense re Frye).

        If the defense can get the jurors alone to listen to the screams (without expert testimony) and decide for themselves who was screaming, the jurors will disagree amongst themselves as to who was screaming. A hung jury (and thus defense’s win) is then assured (per defense’s calculation).

  56. ay2z says:

    Can you imagine if the stte bundled stuff in evidence with stuff not in evidence but just listed today outside Frye that will never be heard, and hope it all gets in front of a jury by some mistake?

    West sure wanted this in front of JN so she had it in her mind for today’s Frye considerations as she decides.

    • Judy75201 says:

      I definitely felt he was trying to slip something in. He was johnny-on-the-spot and pounced at the opportunity to give her his disc when JN said she did not have that file on her computer.

  57. Tony Pipitone

    Judge tells Don West “we are running in circles,” shuts him down. Hearing ends after 46 minutes.

  58. Leisa says:

    I was waiting for West to stomp his feet. Lol

  59. Two sides to a story says:

    Is there a reason she didn’t make a ruling on Frye – she said yesterday that she would today. What delayed that?

    • chi1224 says:

      I had the same question, prof said she will write her ruling this afternoon. I don’t know if we will get to see that today or not. I hope so.

      • smokeegyrl says:

        I’m thinking she was so pissed from last night that she couldn’t write anything… and yet this morning… they just pissed off even more… which made her have her conclusion as to what to write.

      • willisnewton says:

        I think she read the material last night and has to write an opinion today. She may have wanted to hear any last minute additions in the form o written motions but as we saw she didn’t get any – just some unwanted lip from west

    • Trained Observer says:

      She still plans that apparently, but warned West that if kept up the circular drivel it woudn’t happen today. That was when she revealed not having a fax at home.

      Defense still doing whatever it can to delay opening arguments and throw things off track. JN ain’t entertaining it.

    • RobertSF says:

      Well, she probably didn’t mean she’d have it first thing this morning. She’s not going home right now. Looks like she’s going to write up her Frye ruling and give it to both sides later today.

    • Rachael says:

      TSTAS: You ask – “What delayed that?”

      It isn’t What delayed that, it is more like WEST delayed that.

      • ic2fools says:

        Defense didn’t have any reason for a Frye Hearing, just another tactic attempting to delay the trial. Even up to the last minute. Intentional or not West send the wrong document to Wayman, he wasting everyones’ time and defense money for an Waymans’ testimony. Even still Wayman never took the time to review NEN 911 tape or was give Trayvons’ exemplar to analyze.

        Serious waste.

        Money they spent on Hirschorn was the only money seem spent wisely. Just how many times did O’mara ask Hirschorn his opinion on how defense should go forward and what to present.

        West and Omara will disrespect Judge Nelson in front of jurors one time too many.

      • LeaNder says:

        I wonder if Hirschhorn did it for free. Strictly they had to offer a huge amount of media attention. Anyway, I guess the guys rates are rather high.

  60. SearchingMind says:

    “We are running in circles here” – Judge Nelson. Well, that’s West. He runs in circles. West is the ultimate expert on circular logic.

  61. **cries laughing** a Zimmerman supporter wrote

    SkyWarp

    Trayvonites: Every time you’ve seen Don West look unprepared, or overly demanding of the judge, this is ALL by design. The prosecution has deliberately slow rolled and withheld discovery as long as they could get away with it, and the judge has been a relentless taskmaster about June 10th start date

  62. Judy75201 says:

    Mic is still on…

  63. Court is in recess until 9 am EDT Monday.

    I rest my case

    • gbrbsb says:

      Professor, did I hear something about the defence using an exception to be able to present one of GZ’s statements made to SPD ? I heard BDLR say something about that they were basing it on an exception but would have to chose which one.

      • Judge Nelson has already ruled that the defense cannot introduce the defendant’s self-serving hearsay statements.

        West is arguing that several of those statements are admissible under the res gestae exception to the hearsay rule.

        The res gestae exception applies to statements that are contemporaneous with the commission of an act and inseparable from it.

        This exception has been replaced in most evidence codes by the excited utterance and present-sense-impression exceptions to the hearsay rule.

        The key principle is that the declarant must be under the influence of the event when he utters the statement, such that there is little likelihood that he is speaking falsely.

        I do not know what statements West has in mind, but I doubt that any of the defendant’s statements are admissible pursuant to any of those exceptions.

        • gbrbsb says:

          Thanks Professor. Very interesting.

          Just a thought, and probably wrong, but could it be West was referring to GZ’s “utterances” to W13 just after the shooting, i.e.

          “… this guy he was beating up on me so I had to shoot him.”

          I mean, will it also fall under hearsay if GZ fails to testify? And presuming, (and IMBW again here too), that GZ would have to testify to confirm what he said to W13 so it did not fall under hearsay, could MOM & Co be trying to exempt that utterance from the hearsay rule under the res gestae exeption ?

          • There is no question that the following statement would be offered by the defense to prove the truth of the matter asserted in the statement:

            … this guy he was beating up on me so I had to shoot him.

            Therefore, the statement is hearsay.

            The res gestae, excited utterance and present sense impression exceptions to the hearsay rule do not apply because the defendant had an opportunity to fabricate a justification for the shooting.

            Therefore, the statement is not admissible, unless the State offers it as an admission by a party opponent.

            I do not see that happening.

          • gbrbsb says:

            Thanks again Professor. I think you are saying that Defence may try to introduce W13’s testimony about GZ saying he was beat up and had to shoot, but it will be rejected as hearsay?

            And they are already trying! West was desperately fighting to get JN to rule on two statements GZ made to two State witnesses under a res gestae exception today. I watched the hearing again and West was really pushing JN to look at it today, saying condescendingly:

            Your Honour, It’s his {BDLR’s} motion. It’s his motion to exclude the res gestae statements.

            and he looked pretty sick when she refused.

            Can we presume they are desperate to get these statements introduced under one of apparently 8 res gestae exceptions, to save GZ having to testify ?

      • Rachael says:

        Wouldn’t “These assholes, they always get away” and “Those fucking coons” fall under the excited utterance?

        • gbrbsb says:

          I suppose they are “excited utterance”, even if GZ says the first very lazily.
          ; – )

        • Those statements are not hearsay (and the exceptions are inapplicable) because they would not be offered to prove the truth of the matters asserted in each one. Therefore, they are admissible, regardless of which party offers them.

          Of course, the defense won’t offer them.

    • ladystclaire says:

      @Professor, and it was a good case indeed, you’re the BEST!

  64. Judy75201 says:

    Oh did you see that grin on BLDR’s face when he said “Nothing from the State” while looking at O’Mara?

  65. chi1224 says:

    What happened to the Frye decision??

  66. Rachael says:

    OMG – it is like trying to talk to a 12 year old.

    • disappointed says:

      No a 2 year old. Why? But why? How come? Why? But? Why?

      • Rachael says:

        My son never went through the terrible 2’s , it was terrible 12s for him, and he could not seem to understand no matter how many times he would ask, how many different ways he would try, my answer just was not going to change. It didn’t matter how often he would interrupt or try to present it differently – he never asked how come or why, he just kept right on in there trying different angles.

  67. It would be very interesting to get a transcript of this; she is livid.

  68. Two sides to a story says:

    Trap door.

  69. chi1224 says:

    West just won’t quit. I’ve never seen anything like this!!

  70. lurker says:

    Oh, no. The Judge is explaining her role in the Frye hearing and how a judge’s ruling differs from how a jury decides.

    Ish!

  71. Tzar says:

    West is now getting schooled on the role of the judge

  72. Basic Rule: Exhibits are identified and introduced by witnesses.

    This after-the-hearing submission is improper, especially when you do not give a copy to opposing counsel.

  73. Trained Observer says:

    Who is the guy seated next to the woman of defense butt-crack fame?

  74. Judy75201 says:

    Is West trying to sneak something into evidence on that disc? Or is that even possible?

  75. Tzar says:

    oh shit
    West is lost
    Reminds me of McCain wandering the stage during his debate with Obama

  76. chi1224 says:

    I hope Fogen is watching this on live stream somewhere

  77. SearchingMind says:

    The defense is already showing signs of a defense in disarray. It’s gonna get worse in the coming days and weeks. JN needs to be careful. I think the defense is looking for a reason to Motion for recusal and disrupt and discredit the process.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      LOL – Maybe that’s why the Treestump says West is the defense’s secret weapon!

    • Rachael says:

      Well if his “strategy” is to have a “staring contest” with the judge, I’m afraid he will lose. She is the judge, it is her courtroom, and while she may get angry, she will stare him down.

    • Xena says:

      I missed the hearing, (can barely wait for the video to be posted) but it sounds like O’Mara’s strategy to censor the State failed.

  78. ay2z says:

    Mr. Mantai, West yestesrday wanted to submit an exhibit, again JN lectures WEST .

    West is wanting JN to flip out and off the bench? Idiot. He doesn’t get that he can’t get her to consider new evidence on Frye that was not part of the hearing.

    West can mark the exhibit for identification (not being admitted so state can’t object).

    West made a big composite of some evidence in and out of evidence, so what’s his point, to get things in that are not in under Frye?

    • ay2z says:

      West reveals a youtube of Owen explaining his methodology. This jury needs to be at an isolated un’connected’ retreat this weekend.

    • Tzar says:

      West is wanting JN to flip out and off the bench? Idiot. He doesn’t get that he can’t get her to consider new evidence on Frye that was not part of the hearing.

      yup

  79. disappointed says:

    Do not beat your head on desk it does not make this shit any clearer. Only makes head hurt worse.

  80. West is embarrassing himself . . . again.

    And Judge Nelson is losing patience.

    • Sophia33 says:

      Losing? She LOST it about 10 minutes ago.

    • ay2z says:

      Whe’s quiet at the moment, as West gives her new ‘evidence’ outside the Frye hearing that includes admitted documents, and West’s new stuff..

      Is his confusion contagious because he seems to trying to spread it around.

      JN Lecture time again– ‘I am NOT going to consider things to me not presented in court.”…… “We are running in circles here….. that is all I want to hear on this issue,… unless there is something you want to put in as an EXHIBIT.”

      “…anything else?…. Thank you. I will see you all on Monday.”

      • abbyj1 says:

        ay2z, I also get the feeling that West & O’Mara don’t know what the word “NO” means. They just won’t accept it. When Judge Nelson says NO to delays, no to their endless motions, they just keep right at it, and try to steamroller over her. They look at her as if her “NO” is just a momentary setback to be renegotiated the next time they see her.

        IMO, West & O’Mara have no respect for the court, and certainly no respect for Judge Nelson.They treat her like they believe she can’t see through them and their attempts to manipulate her. She seems on to them, though, and we can all feel her digging in hard now. Only fools make an enemy of the judge before whom they are standing. Fogen’s “Dream Team” now has an enemy on the bench. If not a bona fide “enemy,” she’s royally pissed off. IMO, same thing.

  81. Sophia33 says:

    JN “Let me stop you now!”

  82. Tzar says:

    BDLR is facepalming so hard

    • Sleuth says:

      The ASA (I guess) seated next BDLR, has all but buried his head in the table, and is probably saying, “Oh Gawd, not again”!

  83. chi1224 says:

    I’ll say this much the defense is doing everything in their power to keep those audio experts out…. they know how bad it is for Fogen!!

  84. TashaTexas77048 says:

    Obviously Trayvon was on the phone with someone when this happened, obviously whomever he was talking to heard SOMETHING, obviously both Chief Lee and Frank Taafe confirm DeeDee’s statement that ZImmerman approached Trayvon, obviously the girl heard the phone fall in the grass which is where it was found and obviously Zimmerman lied about where he got out of his car SO THE STATE HAS A STRONG CASE THAT ZIMMERMAN FOLLOWED MARTIN.

    • Rachael says:

      GZ said he was following. When Serino asked him why he kept following him, he said he “wasn’t” following, he was going in the same direction – GZ admitted he followed him – same as admitting he shot him.

  85. May as well open those floodgates and thoroughly piss off the court, Mr. West…

  86. chi1224 says:

    What the hell is going on with the Frey hearing??

  87. Judge Nelson: If you want my Frye order today, I can’t sit here in court all day …

    SMACK!

  88. Dave says:

    Even O’Mara is fed up with West.

  89. ay2z says:

    JN is not using her not so inside voice, and she’s speaking more ‘slowly’ to help Mr. West understand. She’s frustrated with him for not understanding that the judge needs something in writing.

    LOL! but he’s happy to do this now ‘orally’, when JN needed the statements IN WRITING, now he wants to do orally again. What about written statement vs speaking statement does West not understand?.

    LECTURE TIME…. hope West gets it.

    • LeaNder says:

      If I were JN, I would want everything from defense in writing too. Even the blind can see that with many of their endless repetions they are only trying to collect a trail of appeal matters.

      She obviously is of the opinion that the Frye topic deserves a written order, and she is absolutely correct. She seemed slightly irritated by Wests attempt to now destroy Owen, he wouldn’t be the first target. DD, Crump, prosecution, JN, ….

      • LeaNder says:

        repetitions, e.g. not enough time, continuance needed, prosecution withhelds evidence ….

      • LeaNder says:

        shit I am tired, withholds or hides evidence. i doubt they would, since it surely would have serious consequences for them.

  90. type1juve says:

    These two fools are wearing on JN’s patience big time!

  91. disappointed says:

    Maybe their money would be well spent on hearing aids for West.

    • Rachael says:

      That would only help him hear. I don’t think that is his problem. He needs listening aids because no matter how well he hears, he is NOT listening.

  92. Sophia33 says:

    “I do not have a fax machine at my home!”

    Why does he keep going? West stop! Can’t you see you are pissing the judge off?

    • RobertSF says:

      She can probably send faxes from her computer since that’s a standard feature these days, but she’s certainly saying that she’s not going to dance to the tune the defense plays.

      • Sophia33 says:

        Very true! She was not having it.

      • EdgySF says:

        Snap a pic with a phone….email it. Ez Pz

      • ladystclaire says:

        @RobertSF, agreed and, a lot of printers come with faxing abilities also. my nephew has one such printer. this defense is IMO is an embarrassment to all defense attorneys in the country. maybe even in the world. they have played and tried this case before the media, as well as to the court of public opinion. they have also consorted with racist web sites (ie) the conservative slum house and others like them.

        They have allowed valuable time to slip away from them because, they were more interested in tainting a possible jury pool as well as, bilking their fellow racist out of their hard earned money, as well as vilifying the victim and his family. not to mention slandering the victim as well.

        All of the above is why they are so ill prepared for this trial.

  93. Rachael says:

    Professor, does this happen often where an attorney (be it defense or prosecution) gets a judge angry like this?

  94. Sleuth says:

    Good Morning All! Happy first day of Summer!

  95. chi1224 says:

    Good God! What is wrong with West!!!!!!

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Unbelievable¬

    • Malisha says:

      Soon Fogenpop will put out a sequel to his book: WHAT’S WRONG WITH AMERICAN LAW, by Judge Lord Kingly MasteroftheUniverse (alias because of death threats)

      It will show that the criminal justice system was perverted because:

      His son was not allowed to testify without being cross-examined;

      His son’s lawyers were not allowed to put in as “evidence” various things that were unauthenticated and several of which were just plain fraudulent or forgeries

      His son was prosecuted when all he did was kill a kid he found suspicious and his whole family agreed should have been killed (although he thought it regrettable that the kid had to then be buried)

      The law of Florida said nobody was allowed to just choose to kill somebody that the Fogen Family judged killable, in spite of the fact that the whole Fogen Family call themselves decent Americans

      His son’s prior unconfirmed nicenesses to various African Americans did not add up to a free pass to kill a single African American kid when he really needed it

      And all like that.

  96. gbrbsb says:

    Stop whining West, good of JN to work the weekend !

  97. Tzar says:

    He was hoping to taint the jury a little more

  98. Safe to say, she is furious.

  99. “May we…”

    “Could we…”

    Um, no, Mr. West. Negative.

  100. gbrbsb says:

    Uhh, what exception ?

    I thought the defence was not permitted to submit any of GZ’s statements that he made to SPD their being hearsay ?

  101. Trial-is-underwaybaby says:

    Get em JN!!!

  102. Tzar says:

    Sorry West
    can’t pull a fast one today
    peace out bitch!!!!

  103. West is totally crazy. Lay down the law, Judge Nelson!

  104. Wendie Dox says:

    whoa… west is gettingthe judge more and more pissed off

  105. Oh dear why does West torture himself so?

    Ouch, ouch, ouch, the court is yelling at him.

  106. chi1224 says:

    West is really pissing the judge off! Amazing!

  107. Rachael says:

    Oh, she is ANGRY!

  108. Sophia33 says:

    Damn! She is screaming. She is sick of West.

  109. gbrbsb says:

    Pre numbering evidence items is the system here in the UK… at last something familiar to me !

  110. TashaTexas77048 says:

    Oh and he confronted Trayvon.

    You are lying, you haven’t tried to keep this case clean which is why is people are claiming Trayvon confronted Zimmerman even after they heard “he ran” “yes” when asked he followed. BOOM!!

  111. Nate B says:

    Didnt Rene Stutzman write some article a few days back saying the Judge had already ruled and banned those terms? Bad journalism.

    • abbyj says:

      NateB, Thanks for the info about Stutzman’s article about the banned words. I keep hearing how biased her reporting is. Does anyone happen to know what dog she’s got in this fight? Why is she so gung-ho in the defense of fogen?

      • EdgySF says:

        She’s actually a nice person IRL. Go figure…

      • cielo62 says:

        She’s got the hots for MOM. It certainly CAN’T for gz!

      • LeaNder says:

        There was a curious moment during the court session a couple of days ago. O’Mara turned aroung in her direction somehow addressing someone behind. And Rene’s face lit up in a smile in his direction. A rare expression. But she realized it immediately, and upruptly turned her face in the other direction. But even there after a while her face lit up again over some secret joy. She only returned to her stern look straight ahead after he had turned his back on her again.

        Strange lady, there is something going on between the two, it feels. Information for articles that somehow help to shape public perception?

        Besides the “charming” elder female pj, tthe one that loving spoke of “George”, the wife of some type of retired law enforcement officer really seemed to be the purest expression of the mindset Rene writes for or creates for O’Mara, take your pick. (was that H-81, forget which letter) The “Trayvon Martin” image the OS used for Rene’s article about TM-the-aspiring-street-fighter obviously stuck on the old lady’s mind so firmly, she decribed it with great ease. The photo only was the ultimate proof that it all must be true.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Ooh, Leander, it could be… love!

    • ronald says:

      Understatement ” BAD JOURNALISM”

  112. ay2z says:

    Judge just laid open, her allowance of opening statement information and handling it in close.

  113. Sophia33 says:

    SMACK DOWN!!!

  114. chi1224 says:

    NEXT

  115. Rachael says:

    OMG, he is SO FOS!

    • ay2z says:

      I think there may be a use FOR the defense in the ‘profile’ ruling, because they may bring something into ‘evidence’ themselves, seed something to contaminate them.

      MOM brought up the ‘absurd’ opening statements problems (CA case was obvious) and he may have a plan with Danzieger parallel or tweeked, to do the same. (CA case also used Jeff Danziger in this way, listing as witness. Now jury knows, or E6 knows, that Danzieger was listed as a witness on the list she saw, and she recongized the name.

    • ladystclaire says:

      @ic2fools. LMAO, that was a good one as well as being a funny at West.

  116. Tzar says:

    “We have tried to date to be very careful withthe case”
    MOM

  117. Two sides to a story says:

    Stutter stutter. OM turning red. His plan isn’t working.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Omigod. What an incredible liar. We’ve tried so hard to NOT make this case what everyone else is making it. FAIL!!

  118. TashaTexas77048 says:

    O’Mara your client is dumb and he deserves to be called a vigilante and he profiled Trayvon and he was self appointed NHW.

  119. chi1224 says:

    Another smack down coming for O’Mara

  120. When O’Mara says, “We have tried to date, to be very cautious with the terminology in this case…”

    …he actually manages to make the snakes look bad. And if I were a snake, I wouldn’t appreciate that…

    OM: “I don’t want an infection of this jury…”

    he said, as he slithered around…

  121. Rachael says:

    Well, MO’M, if YOU think “profile” is racist, it is because YOU ARE A RACIST!~ He WAS profiled – incorrectly – as someone who was up to no good. Now if YOU think that is “racist,” that is VERY telling, MO’M

    • Got profiled leaving work one night……4AM…..Black / Hispanic neighborhood….Me?.older..white..male..265 lbs…shaved head…long goattee in a black sportscar….Cop did a U turn….followed and lit me up……..

      Asks for license reg & ins…and says….”I’ve seen you somewhere before?”………One of my side gigs was doing CIT (Crisis Intervention Team) trainings for the local cops….and had done this cops class about 2 months prior…

      While I’m getting the paperwork I tell him…”Yeah I did your CIT class”……..Him….”OH that’s where I saw you…have a good morning”….and left…

      PROFILED?…..GODDAMN RIGHT he profiled me with the description I gave you……I didn’t fit the neighborhood at that time…….Drugs?…..I also believe he was doing his job….and doing it good……

      • cielo62 says:

        MMP~ I think there’s a difference between “profiling” which is done EVERY TIME regardless of who lives there, vs “suspicious” as in what happened to you. There is a ritzy neighborhood called Bellaire within Houston (yea, a township WITHIN a city) and its cops are some of the most racist bastards you would ever want to meet. One saw 2 black men in a Lexus (better car, maybe a BMW), called it in. The stupid dispatcher told him it was stolen. Actually, that car belonged to the young man whose dad was a retired professional ball player. SHOT HIM when he tried to tell the cop to stop shoving his mom against the wall. He didn’t die, but he has a bullet lodged in his liver where it can’t be removed. OOPS. Car wasn’t stolen. He was at home, in his own driveway and gets shot because he wanted a late night snack! THAT is profiling. My brother, a hispanic guy with a full beard and in a 1965 red Mustang driving through a rough part of mostly black Baltimore was pulled over by cops and said to him “you must be lost, this isn’t your neighborhood.” Yes, actually he WAS lost, so no biggie. But he looked SUSPICIOUS and that was fine that he was pulled over. There IS a distinction.

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