If I were the judge l would admit expert opinion evidence regarding who uttered the death shriek

It’s important to remember that every scientific principle, law, or methodology that is generally accepted in the scientific community today was once a novel theory or new methodology.

The process by which these novel theories and new methodologies become generally accepted in the scientific community can take many years.

It can be extremely frustrating to have to wait for general acceptance to develop in the scientific community when a pressing need exists to use a novel theory or methodology to solve crimes as was the case with applying DNA testing to solve otherwise unsolvable crimes or to hold a pharmaceutical company liable for birth defects that mighth ave been caused by anti-nausea medication prescribed by doctors for pregnant women.

The so-called DNA Wars of which I was a part in the late 80s and 90s resisting the admissibility of DNA test results that implicated my clients in death peenalty cases and the pressure on the courts to provide a legal remedy for parents of children born with birth defects possibly because the mothers ingested prescription Bendectin at the recommendation of their physicians to overcome morning sickness placed a mighty stress on our legal system.

The National Association of Prosecuting Attorneys pressured the courts to admit DNA testing and they were eventually successful in overcoming criminal defense lawyers like me who fought hammer and tong to prevent the evidence from bein admitted.

Plaintiff’s personal injury lawyers fought hard to persuade the courts to permit them to show a link between not only Bendectin and birth defects, but also between certain lung cancers and exposure to radioactiviy, coal dust, asbestos or smoking.

The SCOTUS decided the Daubert case in the midst of this war being fought in the courts to reject or at least loosen the strictures of the Frye Rule to allow litigants a shot at convincing juries to rule their way.

For those who cling to the Frye Rule believing the scientific tradition should be respected and followed before a litigant should be permitted to introduce into evidence the results of a scientific test based on a novel scientific principle or new methodology, I think they need to reexamine their view in a manner that recognizes that most trials consist of a lot of evidence from different sources that often independently confirm a result obtained using an experimental theory or methodology.

In addition, one party or the other has to satisfy a burden of proof and each side can call its own experts to challenge or support the results obtained with the new theory or methodology.

I have confidence in the ability of jurors to evaluate evidence obtained as the result of new scientific theories and methodologies in light of other evidence in the case and to fairly and impartially determine guilt or innocence according to which party has the burden of proof in any case, whether civil or criminal.

Of course this requires skilled lawyerswho understand science and can explain it to lay people. Unfortunately, we have a shortage of those lawyers, but the times are changing.

Daubert recognizes that, although a courtroom is not a laboratory, it is an excellent crucible for determining the truth and judges, lawyers and jurors are capable of making correct decisions and delivering justice in a way that no laboratory can accomplish.

The death shriek in the Zimmerman case is an excellent example of a situation where other evidence in the case confirms the hypothesis that Trayvon Martin uttered the death shriek.

Briefly, the evidence will show that Trayvon was an unarmed 5’11,” 158-pound 17-year-old male walking home in the rain minding his own business after purchasing Skittles and an iced tea at a 7/11. He spent most of his time during his walk home talking to his girlfriend on his cellphone informing her about a creepy man who followed him slowly at a distance in his vehicle in a menacing manner without identifying himself or attempting to engage him in a conversation. Trayvon attempted to elude the creepy man by running away from the street and ducking into a grassy area corresponding to the backyards of two rows of town houses,That area was not visible from the street and once there he told his girlfriend that he thought he had successfully eluded him.

The evidence will also show that the defendant was a 5’8,” 207 pound 28-year-old Neighborhood Watch Captain, professionally trained fighter and former bouncer, who was armed with a fully loaded 9 mm semiautomatic handgun that he carried in a holster concealed from view inside the right rear waistband of his pants.

The evidence will show that he got out of his vehicle after Trayvon ran away, ran after him in hot pursuit, and continued running after him despite being warned not to do so and agreeing not to do so by the NEN dispatcher. Then, instead of agreeing to meet the officer dispatched to the scene at a set location such a his parked vehicle, the RTL front gate, Clubhouse, or the rear entrance to RTL though which “these assholes always get away,” he instructed the dispatcher to tell the officer to ring him up on his cell phone when he arrived at the RTL so that he could tell him where he was.

Finally, the evidence will show that Trayvon’s girlfriend heard Trayvon say to someone, “Why are you following me for?” and then she heard an older male voice challenge Trayvon stating, “What are you doing here?”

Then she heard a sound like two bodies coming together and Trayvon yelling, “Get off me. Get off me.”

Then the phone went dead.

Less than one minute later, the defendant shot Trayvon in the heart, killing him.

I contend that nothwithstanding Dr. Nakasone’s legitimate concerns about the capability of audio technology today to positively identify the source of the death shriek from an isolated 3 second recording of a 911 call, a jury can reach the right conclusion by considering Dr. Nakasone’s opinion together with the opinions of other experts, and most importantly, the other evidence in the case, and the possibility that only Trayvon Martin or the man with the gun could have made those screams.

This, by the way will be the State’s argument, given the questions that Mr. Mantei asked Dr. Nakasone.

I hope this clarifies your understanding of the issues that relate to the admissibility of expert opinion evidence regarding the identity of the person who uttered the death shriek.

In my experience, judges have almost always allowed the expert witness to testify and express an opinion in a situation like this. They rule that objections by counsel go to the weight that the jury should give to any expert’s opinion rather than to the admissibility of the evidence itself.

I believe Judge Nelson will reach the same conclusion.

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202 Responses to If I were the judge l would admit expert opinion evidence regarding who uttered the death shriek

  1. PiranhaMom says:

    @Professor Fred,

    (1) If the 911 call is played in the courtroom, may he jurors later request a copy of the tape to play in the Jury Room during their deliberations?

    (2) Will the jurors be provided earphones and individually be permitted to increase the volume?

    Thank you.

  2. dianetrotter says:

    I just read the Stutsman/Weiner for today. What the Fudge????? Did we observe the same testimony?

  3. Lynn says:

    Audio-visual problems delaying trial this morning. Ugh. I have to go to work in 15 min.

  4. Lynn says:

    no stream anywhere?

  5. Leisa says:

    Goog morning everyone. have a good feeling today because the French Open tennis tournament is on and my man is winning semi-final match.

    There is coverage of yesterday’s hearing on u-tube for anyone who missed some of it (like me). It is very clear and you can even hear the judge. Unfortunately it is not one done by Trent but there are no comments so it is watchable.

  6. LeaNder says:

    I would appreciate help concerning a working link. Without any interruptions for talking heads, news or ads.

    I guess this one uses these “experts” too to shape public opinion. As can be seen by only 33% voting guilty over there.

    Not completely sure which I used yesterday, but I think it may have been the Orlando Sentinel. The link does not work any more. In any case it was a pure live stream.

    Other watching experiences except towerflower’s special IPhone app?

    The wild about trial link at this moment produces odd little crackling noises in my earphones. which I would prefer not to have.

    • ic2fools says:

      Good morning LeaNder.

      this link works, but it is not

      uninterhttp://www.wftv.com/s/watchlive/rupted coverage:

      I have wildabouttrial tab open and hear the cracklin noise too. it should stop when actual stream begins. guess we see then ay…

      • LeaNder says:

        good to know. Was this an uninterrupted live feed yesterday?

        • ic2fools says:

          Unfortunately no. Jus as Wesley White was speaking the live feed cut to Bill Sheaffer laughling with another reporter about events other than the trial. Actually Sheaffer was bragging about being a sexy bald guy blah blah blah ugh!!!

          I had wildabouttrial open in my other tab finished watching the hearing there.

          May the streaming work for you better today.

      • ic2fools says:

        BTW wildabouttrial live feed yesterday was uninterrupted. Good quality.

      • LeaNder says:

        I’ll stay with wildabout trial then. Thanks all. See you. 😉

    • SearchingMind says:

      The OS link to the hearing should be activated a few minutes to the hearing – is my experience.

    • LeaNder says:

      Ok, Weiner links here. That’s the link I got using the one yesterday.

      Delay? Starting later? Nothing on wildabout trial yet either. Time should be correct.

      Oh, sorry, Good morning everybody. I can be enormously impolite. That’s one of my flaws. 😉

      Who was the expert listening in yesterday. Felt defense has another one who was waiting outside yesterday.

  7. vickie s. votaw says:

    Morning, y’ll, I was just looking at the picture of fogen listening to the 911 tape, I think he is reliving it , he looks creepy. Anyway, my prayers for all today & I love this blog & the people devoting their hearts to justice 🙂

  8. towerflower says:

    The tree peers are in rare form, actually not. Now they want you to contribute to the defense fund because the State of Florida has jeopardized the lives and liberty of the defense witnesses. SD must really be a real trip in person with all his conspiracies.

    • towerflower says:

      Hate auto correct spelling….that should be treepers.

    • Jun says:

      THEY WANT ME TO CONTRIBUTE LMAO?

    • SearchingMind says:

      On several occasions, Diwataman said for the record that he has never contributed and will not be contributing. Sundance Cracker has also never contributed. Jeralyn Merritt will neither confirm nor deny that she has ever contributed. Only the jackA$$es contribute the money the never earned but given to them on a monthly basis by The Big Government (they oppose vigorously).

    • vickie s. votaw says:

      42% say yes?, no wonder we have such a hard time in this country, almost half of us are deranged!

    • Tzar says:

      well since HLN spent so many days not telling the real story(ies) George told then, i can see how their audience could be confused, but I am pretty sure, joonya and his band of merry-men got to that poll.

    • GirlP says:

      Believable due to the way they are presenting it.

      • Malisha says:

        Regardless of how believable polls NOW say Fogen’s story is or is not, that makes NO DIFFERENCE. To GET his story before a jury he has to TELL it. To TELL it he has to get in the box. THAT’s his problem. Belief in something that might or might not be won’t change the fact that if he testifies, after the cross-examination, there will be not a shred of his story that is believed by any person with a minimum intelligence.

  9. Jun says:

    I think Nakasone is full of crap regarding his 3 second claim. There is a full phone call and I can hear quite a bit without using any audiology equipment. However he even agreed that the methods are accepted. However I feel he was bought for the “3 second” claim.

  10. Rosalyn5

    Zimmerman and OMara went from using the 911 call to prove GZ was innocent to not wanting it played in court. ZM went from being fearfull when Trayvon circled his vehicle to leaping from it to give chase. OMara will get a job on Fox and Nancy Grace show. Zimmerman will go to prison.

  11. groans says:

    The defense seems to be all about having a “secret” trial and imposing prior restraints on speech. Is that really how they interpret the Constitutional fair trial provisions?

    The defense stakeholders clearly feel deep shame and want to impose their denial, projections, etc. on the general public. As Racerrodig would say: It must really suck to the killer or his friends/family right now.

    The judge won’t allow any blatant displays of favoritism inside her courtroom. But, outside? That’s not within her legitimate control.

    • groans says:

      Well, yeah…. “Subject to searches,” and not allowed to carry water or food during the long summer trial days? Sounds too broad to me, as well as inhumane.

      • ladystclaire says:

        I don’t recall any other murder trial having people on the court house grounds, or any other grounds where people have protested for the defendant. Every bit of this shit is wrong and, it shouldn’t be allowed.

        Trayvon Martin was a child and, above all he was a human being. This child has never harmed anybody, yet he is being so mistreated by the IGNORANCE among us in what is the U.S.A. yes, the rest of the world is definitely watching and seeing what a racist country this really is!

      • aussie says:

        It’s a PLOT.

        GZ’s family can set up food and drink stalls and rake in a bit more for the defence fund. If they can keep GZ from eating the merchandise during court breaks.

        Seriously, searches is fine, considering the millions of death threats involved in this case. Food and drink is not likely to be disguised bombs.

  12. silk says:

    Hello everyone, what’s up with the knew witnesses? I mean, could this be a fast one like witness 6? I mean that’s what caught my attention. After all , the defense do lie a lot. They was lying the whole hearing. And with the racist support that fattys given , now he’s come up with knew witnesses.

    • Xena says:

      @silk.

      They was lying the whole hearing. And with the racist support that fattys given , now he’s come up with knew witnesses.

      It’s a secret, so come close while I whisper. (whispering) It’s the 3 stooges — the guys that came into the 7-Eleven when Trayvon left out. But since O’Mara doesn’t have the REAL 3 guys, and at least one guy can be recognized and the other 2 are Black, O’Mara wants the fake guys to be hidden from view. 🙂

    • Tzar says:

      I mean, could this be a fast one like witness 6?

      say what now?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Oops, while I was slowly posting, you beat me to it, SG2! You’re speedy!

      • ic2fools says:

        where is this mess about? more waste of paper and time. defense is doing way too much.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Deadline for motions before trial, I think and defense tossing out everything they think will work for them.

      • groans says:

        The deadlines for pre-trial motions has long passed, pursuant to the court’s amended scheduling order dated 10/29/12. I think we might hear fact that mentioned by the judge.

        Defense has been doing most everything EXCEPT what it was supposed to be doing in preparation for trial. Too bad, so sad.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Gray hoodies for all! More nonsense. There aren’t that many seats in that courtroom … most are taken by legal staff, families, media.

    • It’s really hard to describe how unscrupulous this guy is. His motion leaves wide open for Zimmerman supporters to wear supportive buttons and ribbons, he just doesn’t want that for Martin supporters. But, he wanted some of the witnesses behind screens?

      Unbelievable. What a spineless weasel. I mean, there were little ribbons in the recent Arias trial, right?

      What the fuck is he really talking about, because, well….did he say anything about the obvious? Does he want grey nike hoodies banned? How about tea, and skittles?

  13. Operacarla says:

    Thanks team members for all of your insight for those of us unable to check in during the day. I really appreciate it. Hope Professor and Crane are well! To Professor and Crane..given that you ride motorcycles in TN. have you ever ridden the Natchez Trace? Wonderful ride!!!

    http://www.nps.gov/natr/index.htm

  14. JOINT STIPULATION AS TO EXPERT WITNESS TESTIMONY AT FRYE HEARING

    http://www.gzdocs.com/documents/0613/joint_stipulation.pdf

    • Xena says:

      @SG2. Judge Lester entered an order allowing Zimmerman to go to Orange County to his attorney’s office.

      11 p.m. is rather late, unless GZ thinks it’s going to take him several hours to eat a late dinner after leaving O’Mara’s office.

      • Hold on to your seat…O’Mara will become even more dramatic leading up to the trial and beyond.

        • Xena says:

          @SG2. I could see O’Mara’s nervousness today. They are not prepared for trial, but that’s his own fault for running after Zidiot conspiracy theories instead of building GZ’s defense.

          • racerrodig says:

            “…..instead of building GZ’s defense.”

            What defense……you mean the one built on loose and shifting sands….? that defense??

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig.

            What defense……you mean the one built on loose and shifting sands….? that defense??

            Yep. That defense. The Zidiot “he should not have been arrested” defense. That’s not working well for them is it?

          • racerrodig says:

            Ahhhh Memories…The No Arrest Guarantee…..seems like eons ago.

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig.

            Ahhhh Memories…The No Arrest Guarantee…..seems like eons ago.

            Last year just before his first bond hearing, the Zimmerman wasp nest on Yahoo said the charges would be dismissed. Didn’t happen.

            After they repeatedly argued the thugfication of Trayvon, they said that Sybrina and Tracy would have the charges dismissed. Didn’t happen.

            Then, they said after Romney was elected that he would fire AG Holder, charge him with participating in the BGI to have GZ arrested, and set “George free.” Didn’t happen.

            The Feds sent a group to Seminole County to talk about race relations, and the Zimmerman wasp nest said that was because after New Year’s, GZ was going to be “set free.” Didn’t happen.

            Based on comments made by the Zimmerman wasp nest that have been reported to me, it seems that they thought the same regarding depositions of DeeDee and attorny Crump. All the Richardson hearings suggested by Zidiots were suppose to result in charges being dismissed. Didn’t happen — ain’t gonna happen.

      • racerrodig says:

        I heard he likes to stay until Golden Corral closes. In all reality, this should have been filed a month ago. Nothing spells loser like Last day Motions.

        • Xena says:

          @racerrodig. Judge Nelson already set a date deadline for pre-trial motions. The trial is being held in Seminole County. Let O’Mara and West stay at GZ’s residence until they have finished their work for the night.

  15. DEFENDANT’S MOTION TO PROHIBIT SPECTATORS FROM WEARING ITEMS THAT DEPICT SUPPORT

    http://www.gzdocs.com/documents/0613/motion_to_prohibit.pdf

    • Lynn says:

      Does this mean if I get a lottery seat that I can’t wear my hoodie?

      • racerrodig says:

        If this is granted then Robbie The Racist should not be allowed in…..He’s had his puss all over the place and I’m sure just about every juror has seen his antics.

      • groans says:

        @ Racer – Right! Robbie the Racist’s face IS the equivalent of a button in favor of the killer!

      • Cercando Luce says:

        OK, no hoodies or slogans or buttons with the deceased’s image, but you could wear a Hollister tshirt.

        • racerrodig says:

          I have a friend in FL who is going to try every day to get a ticket. If the judge rules on this he’s wearing a Skittles shirt and a Reese’s shirt. Unless those 2 are spelled out as barred, he’ll be recognizable. Skittles is obvious but there is a picture of Trayvon wearing a Reese’s shirt. He’s looking for an Arizona Ice Tea shirt.

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      This motion is no doubt because Junior tweeted that he couldn’t help but notice that the prosecutor’s choice of refreshment today was arizona iced tea.

    • Jun says:

      I think it will be denied

      Omara can’t take away people’s rights to peacefully gather and protest or wear what they want

      Besides, these people will be outside the courtroom and Nelson or the court has no control over that

  16. Two sides to a story says:

    Yikes, I just got to the point in the testimony where the defense plays the infamous 911 call. I’d love to see a body language expert (I realize this isn’t scientific) take on Fogen’s posture during that call. I couldn’t bear to listen to that for months and it still affects me deeply.

    • aussie says:

      Look a the JURY’s BODY LANGUAGE when it’s played in court. That’s when you’ll know the result. I’d not be surprised to see a few tears there. And that is bye-bye GZ.

  17. Tee says:

    I think the judge will allow the recording and the experts in. I believe that she is just and will let the jury hear both and let them decide for themselves. We all know even if the media don’t mention it, that you can’t yell for help while you mouth and nose are covered and someone is “stoppingyour breathing.” all while your head is being slammed into the sidewalk. Like my mom use to say ” you can fool some of the people all of the time.” You can fool all of the people some of the time.” But you can not fool all of the people all of the time, and you sure as Hell can’t fool me!”

  18. Two sides to a story says:

    A bit off-topic, but it’s nice to always return to the victim and the victim’s family – Charles Blow interview with Sybrina –

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/05/opinion/the-sorrow-of-trayvon-martins-mother.html?_r=1&

  19. 1.) I thought O’Mara had his own expert.

    2.) There is more than just a shriek, There is an “I don’t know…”
    Has Zimmerman ever addressed that? It’s pretty audible.

    3) There is no need for any expert, IMO.

  20. Tzar says:

    here is what is on my mind tonight:
    Jeremy is involved in this up to his eyeballs
    DeeDee hangs up at 7:16??
    w11 connects at 7:16:11
    Trayvon is shot dead 41 seconds later
    a maximum of 61 seconds from first contact to death
    a maximum of 11 seconds from first contact to the Trayvon begging to be released

    (feel free to add a few seconds for the opening verbal exchange)

    NOW
    in the middle of physical conflict is that enough time to detain someone who is screaming bloody murder and care enough to “warn” to a random passer by that you are “serious” about shooting this struggling detainee?

    More importantly
    and if you got enough time to warn anyone, aren’t you just that much further away from wearing diapers and being fed by dear ole bro?

    • BillT says:

      a video in a thread last night of a fast KO in a mma fight showed that a blow to the head makes a VERY loud cracking sound….NO sounds of physical fighting are heard on the 911 call, and as posted above the 911 call in its entirety shows there was NO physical fight.

    • disappointed says:

      I never understood why LE believed this liar to begin with. After finding out about Trayvon’s final cell phone call compared to 911 incoming calls from neighbors{call times}. I mean seriously WTF? Explain to me how someone can pull a gun and shoot another human being and then use self defense when there is no bruising, broken bones{proven thru x-ray) or 1 measly stitch to his head. I thought self defense meant equal force not pull a gun from your ass and shoot.
      You are right, nothing adds up. Zimmerman is a liar and if he walks he will feel that he can kill again. I for one hope that he never moves to my area. I walk my dogs in a hoodie, I walk in the run in a hoodie, and I look about when I walk in a hoodie. Guess if he walks- “vest” will be sold like hotcakes.

      • disappointed says:

        walk in the rain… oops sorry

      • These people reject the obvious. Such as the NEN audio leaves absolutely no room for the events that GZ said happened and in no way could TM run back and circle his car in that timespan. What is also obvious is that GZ jumped out of his vehicle and chased TM the second TM started running. It’s obvious but that clarity is muddled in a race issue.

    • Lynn says:

      I know what you mean about time constraints. He does the reenactment and adds line after line of various “help me neighbor” BS to make his story fit his plea of not guilty. Add them all up and maybe he didn’t have enough time to make eye contact with each neighbor and converse with each one. Then let me flip the body, pat it down, walk back and forth to the T, make a phonecall, have a double photoshoot, and talk about about guns and ammo…Oh, look how time flies! Here comes the cops!

      We’re talking a couple of minutes people!

      LLMPapa would have to strap that rocketman backpack on GZ’s butt to make it fit into the timeline.

    • disappointed says:

      plus get gun out which involves shimming so the shirt comes up and then being felt up. I mean he felt Trayvon saw the gun.

    • looolooo says:

      If he had to rely on dear ole bro, he’d soon starve to death due to dear ole bro’s tendency to usurp his lil bro at every opportunity.

  21. Ty Flair says:

    Professor I was watching the news and two lawyers said if O’mara lose this case and BLDR is found guilty of what O’Mara claim he did it’s ground for a mistrail because O’Mara wanted to delay the trail cause he did not have enough time since he say BLDR hide evidence. Could this happen.

    • Malisha says:

      IANAL but I believe there is such a tiny chance of that happening that it’s negligible. First of all, not a scintilla of evidence alleged to have been “hidden” was either admissible or probative. Secondly, there have been findings all along that there was no prejudice to the defense from anything they whined about no matter how loudly they whined. Under those conditions, there would be no grounds for either mistrial or successful appeal, I think. Of course, that doesn’t change the fact that the motions being made and argued by the defense are strategic two ways: (1) Poison the jury pool; and (2) set up an appeal they can fuss about for 10 years minimum. First appeal would be “they didn’t give us time to prepare because they were railroading our client” and that would go all the way up to the SCOTUS and then post-conviction relief based on this or that and possibly on ineffective assistance of counsel and that would go all the way up and back and fail (harmless error at best) and then wrangle wrangle wrangle federal habeas fail appeal to federal appellate circuit fail bounce up to SCOTUS again and of course no cert. Blah blah blah blah and each time something happens the Outhousers or those like the (or their children’s children) scream and holler and Jeralyn and Dersh get their panties in knots and on and on and on and on. Shellie leaves if she has not already left and she becomes responsible for ruining her own life all by herself. Ho Hum. Martyr.

      • pat deadder says:

        I am really confused didn’t the state turn over the bin file or whatever the hell it’s called in February and tell the defense to hire their own expert and didn’t the defense put off doing this because#1 they had no money#2 they kept whing about the state not doing it for them.Am I even more confused than I realize.

    • I think it’s extremely unlikely because none of the evidence allegedly withheld is relevant, admissible or exculpatory. Finally, since the defense now has everything, they will not be able to show that they were prejudiced or disadvantaged in any way.

      The motion for sanctions is frivolous and the only possible benefit to the defense is the possibility that potential jurors in the jury pool will have paid attention to it and concluded that the State hid evidence and got caught.

      Frankly, I believe they filed it for that reason only. They are hoping for a stealth juror who will lie to get on the jury and then vote Not Guilty regardless of the evidence.

      That;s the only hope they have because they sure don’t have a defense.

    • Jun says:

      I am not a lawyer but I watched it and even Fogen’s witnesses proved and admitted that Omara must have got the information and discovery already to be able to inquire regarding the discovery by looking at it

      Considering that, I think it will be denied and then the state can go after Omara for all his frivolous motions

      Wesley Dumbass White and that IT guy CryBoss pretty much proved that they only had accusations and nothing to back up anything they claimed and everything Wesley had was his own underlying prejudice

      Skeletor is even bigger of an idiot and he pretty much just repeated everything the IT guy had agreed with Bernie that the Fogen gang got everything in timely fashion, according to figuring out the CellBrite forensic information

      Basically they wasted about 4 hours of court time

  22. Please remember that Dr. Nakasone is conservative by nature and there is nothing wrong with that. In scientific matters he prefers not to speculate about anything or go out on any limbs.

    He is very careful to avoid expressing an opinion or making a statement that is not fully supported in the published peer reviewed literature.

    You are extremely unlikely to read about him expressing an opinion as an expert in a field in which he is not an expert. He will not speculate and cannot be cajoled into agreeing with a statement he does not fully support.

    He stands out because this character trait is relatively unusual among forensic scientists and analysts. An invesstigation of personnel at the FBI Crime Lab triggered by revelations from FBI Crime Lab whistleblower Fred Whitehurst identified testifying beyond expertise as the most common offense committed by lab personnel.. Dr. Nakasone is determined not to make that mistake and I respect him for that.

    He is suspicious of new methodologies and wants to see the data they produce before forming a conclusion about the use of the methodology.

    Most research scientists are like this because it is a bedrock belief that all of them were taught. Any other approach is dismissed as non-scientific and not taken seriously. That is why ASA Mantei was having trouble making any headway on cross.

    In fact it is impossible to overstate the importance of professional journals in science and the role of peer review in evaluating new theories and methodologies because that is how theories become scientific knowledge.

    This core process is responsible for all that we know about the universe and separates us in a very significant way from our ancestors who believed in evil spirits and the supernatural.

    Don’t get me wrong. I do not believe science can define consciousness, love or morality, so it has limitations. However, that is a subject for another post.

    In science, results are reliable only if they can be reproduced.

    Therefore,

    KEY PRINCIPLE TO REMEMBER: A novel theory or new methodology in science must be tested by someone. The results must be published in a professional journal describing the experiment that was used.

    Until other scientists have reviewed the published paper, commented on the experiment and the results, and run the same experiment in their labs to see if they get the same result, the novel theory or new methodology remains nothing more than an unconfirmed possibility.

    When other scientists get the same or reproducible results, the theory or methodology is recognized as reliable and becomes a part of accepted or established science.

    This is the scientific tradition by which novel theories and new methodologies become accepted science.

    It is evidence driven.

    That is why we have evidence based discussions on this site.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Already people assume that because of Dr. Nakasone’s conservative testimony that there will be no expert testimony about the tape at all in the trial . . . I wish people would wait until they hear all the testimony and Judge Nelson’s decision before sending their opinions out all over cyberspace.

    • heartofhearts says:

      Professor, This may be off base but what kind of test was it that GZ took when they asked him a series of questions with his back to the detective during his initial interviews and they came to the conclusion he was being factual. I cannot use the word “truth” because I don’t think he would know it if it were staring him the face. Will that be admitted into court?

      • It was a voice stress analysis test that the SPD and many other police departments use as a lie detector tool to interrogate suspects. When the interrogator thinks the suspect is lying, he accuses him of lying based on the machine’s reaction to the suspect’s answer. The interrogator assures the suspect that he cannot fool the machine, so he might as well confess. Police get lots of confessions this way.

        There was a small town police department in sparsely populated eastern Washington State that wanted to buy one of these machines back in the early 90s, but they could not afford it.

        One of the detectives used a little Yankee ingenuity to come up with the next best thing. He went to a Walmart and purchased a colander, insulated copper wire and two alligator clips. Returning to the office, he attached two six-foot lengths of wire to the two alligator clips and attached the two clips to the colander. He stuffed the loose ends of the two wires in the back of his desk drawer and placed the colander in the front part of the drawer.

        The next time he interrogated a suspect who refused to confess, he opened the drawer, placed the colander on the suspect’s head, and accused the suspect of committing the crime. When the suspect denied it, he peered into the back of the drawer and informed the suspect that the lie detector machine said he was lying.

        The suspect subsequently confessed and the detective had a great story to tell.

        The voice stress analysis machine is not generally accepted by polygraph experts as being capable of accurately and reliably determining whether a person is attempting deception. Therefore, the results Erwin obtained while questioning the defendant are presumptively invalid and not admissible for any purpose in the defendant’s trial.

      • LeaNder says:

        Frederick, listening to it again in one of the videos by either LLMPapa or Xena, don’t remember, I noticed that at one point his no is enormously short, he completely drops any stress on the o at the end, almost reducing it to a hardly heard schwa sound. There is also a pattern of series of yes answers. I think it would be much better if there was a more frequent shift between yes and no answers. Maybe not. I have to look closer at this sometimes especially concerning the precise context of the more relevant questions.

        • Xena says:

          @LeaNder. Regarding GZ’s voice stress test. A question was if he was in fear for his life when he shot “the guy.” GZ answered “yes.” On Hannity’s program, GZ said his fear was that the cop would arrive and find him with a gun and shoot him. Thus, the question was honestly answered in GZ’s mind. He was in fear for his life, but that fear was not caused by Trayvon.

          • LeaNder says:

            thanks Xena. I wouldn’t have remembered that.

          • Xena says:

            @LeaNder.

            thanks Xena. I wouldn’t have remembered that.

            No problem. You’re welcomed. That’s why it takes a “team.”

  23. mgs710 says:

    Professor, you truly are a godsend to those of us who are seeking truth and justice in this case.

  24. whonoze says:

    My guess is that, in the long run (e.g. when the Frye hearing resumes) West and O’Mara’s stalling tactics will backfire. Based on his general cluelessness regarding the tech issues surrounding the audio of Crump’s interview with W8, I suspect Don West doesn’t know enough about audio to effectively cross the State’s experts. Perhaps if Dr. Nakasone were sitting by his side, he could come up with some more pointed and effective counters, but I’m thinking even Tom Owen will be able to run rings around him, not to mention Alan Reich who has a PhD and was a professor at a well-respected university. If West and O’Mara hadn’t wasted most of the day chasing BDLR about that discovery BS, they’d have been able to hear some of the State’s witnesses in the Frye hearing and have Dr. Nakasone respond to them point by point. Now the shoe is on the other foot.

    But then, I doubt MOM and West actually expect to win any of their motions, either on sanctions against BDLR or on the Frye hearing. (They have to know Dr. Nakasone’s testimony will go more to weight than admissability.) So, the whole point still seems to be to aim a rhetorical assault on the jury pool and the media: to get HLN or whoever to run sound sound bites of Don West saying “We caught you!” and Dr. Nakasone essentially calling the State’s experts dangerous quacks (though I’m not the good Dr. is quite as sound-bite friendly as they’d like…)

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Thanks for your comments, Whonoze. Very helpfull to someone like me who is reeling with both the legal wrangling AND the technical stuff today.

    • Malisha says:

      IANAL but I believe there is such a tiny chance of that happening that it’s negligible. First of all, not a scintilla of evidence alleged to have been “hidden” was either admissible or probative. Secondly, there have been findings all along that there was no prejudice to the defense from anything they whined about no matter how loudly they whined. Under those conditions, there would be no grounds for either mistrial or successful appeal, I think. Of course, that doesn’t change the fact that the motions being made and argued by the defense are strategic two ways: (1) Poison the jury pool; and (2) set up an appeal they can fuss about for 10 years minimum. First appeal would be “they didn’t give us time to prepare because they were railroading our client” and that would go all the way up to the SCOTUS and then post-conviction relief based on this or that and possibly on ineffective assistance of counsel and that would go all the way up and back and fail (harmless error at best) and then wrangle wrangle wrangle federal habeas fail appeal to federal appellate circuit fail bounce up to SCOTUS again and of course no cert. Blah blah blah blah and each time something happens the Outhousers or those like the (or their children’s children) scream and holler and Jeralyn and Dersh get their panties in knots and on and on and on and on. Shellie leaves if she has not already left and she becomes responsible for ruining her own life all by herself. Ho Hum. Martyr.

    • Malisha says:

      He didn’t actually say the words “dangerous quacks” did he?

      • whonoze says:

        “Quacks” definitely not. IIRC, he did say “dangerous” or something like it.

      • LeaNder says:

        What I wondered about was his emphasis on two independent researchers. Which strictly makes sense. But it also only surfaced lately in a recent reports that did it’s best to attribute the sceams equally to Trayvon and Fogen. What struck me about that report is that it arrives at conclusions, but also denies to have a solid acoustic study base for. Wasn’t that an FBI report again? Was Hirotaka Nagasone the supervisor of these scientists again?

        As far as I remember the first report was by him only. But I do not remember exactly the exchanges at that point. Did he have someone working on the tape too, someone that was still training and not certified yet, or was that a different context. Could some type of apprentice surrender to someone who has a supervisory function? So there are limits of departure from the master’s voice?

    • groans says:

      @ Whonoze, re:

      If West and O’Mara hadn’t wasted most of the day chasing BDLR about that discovery BS, they’d have been able to hear some of the State’s witnesses in the Frye hearing and have Dr. Nakasone respond to them point by point. Now the shoe is on the other foot.

      Exactly! A major strategic blunder – especially since they KNEW their own expert was available only today. And the fact that the prosecutor ever-so-considerately brought that up and offered to allow Dr. N to go first only ACCENTUATED how a$$-backwards the Frye hearing would proceed, precisely because of the defense’s discovery sanction shenanigans and BS! They put THEMSELVES in the position of trying to “rebut” something that nobody’s heard yet!

      SMH.

      • groans says:

        In hindsight, I think the defense buffoons’ “strategy” was actually to continue on merrily with their time-wasting discovery sanctions (Richardson) hearing without mentioning a peep to the judge about their Frye hearing witness. And then, the day would end and they could cry and whine about their Frye hearing expert being unavailable tomorrow – so, they were absolutely entitled to a continuation of the trial (whine, cry, moan)!

        But the judge could see that one coming, and nipped it in the bud (well … in the semi-flower stage). She’s no fool – she’s probably seen all the tricks in the book, and maybe even from O’Mara and West, themselves, in the past!

    • LLMPapa says:

      So, the whole point still seems to be to aim a rhetorical assault on the jury pool and the media: to get HLN or whoever to run sound sound bites of Don West saying “We caught you!” and Dr. Nakasone essentially calling the State’s experts dangerous quacks (though I’m not the good Dr. is quite as sound-bite friendly as they’d like…)

      With no disrespect to the good Dr., but wouldn’t a non native accent in his own speech sorta take the edge off a jury’s perception of his credibility as to voice recognition?

      • whonoze says:

        It shouldn’t. But the trial is in Florida.

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @LLMPapa,

        Despite the waves of immigration, we are a remarkably xenophobic society when it comes to accents (even regional) and speech patterns.

        A good handful of those jurors will distrust Nakasone because “he’s not one of us.”

        And they will be infuriated by the plodding pace and the fact that “thar’s no meat with them potatoes.”

        The jurors want experts to make facts CLEAR to them. Nakasone can’t.

        They will lame O’Mara for this — “why couldn’t he bring us somebody we could understand?”

        Frankly, I disagree with the claim that there cannot be any overlapping for speech identification. Haven’t we all had our kids speaking to us at once – and we understood perfectly what each was saying!

        Great tailor, though. That was one lovely suit he was wearing. And I liked his independence – he was not going to hand O”Mara any bon bons.

  25. Two sides to a story says:

    I gotta hand it to all you intrepid souls who sat through this testimony live today. You rock!

    I can barely sit still for it and I’m stuck in place, working at the same time! I don’t mind that it’s precise and scientific, but I just about fall asleep between words and sentences. S-L-O-W.

    Hopefully I don’t blinkblinkblink and look sideways like Fogen.

    • jm says:

      I didn’t follow it either.

      What is up with GZ? His face is looking more and more bloated and his earlobes are weird, along with his other weird manerisms.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Um, been that way for quite some time now – you just noticed?

        • jm says:

          GZ looked worst than I have ever seen him today. I think he may have serious health issues on top of serious mental issues.

      • Lynn says:

        @jm
        You could see his earlobes? The jowls have protruded to the point his earlobes are hidden.

      • Michael Stewart says:

        FWIW….

        Today was the first time I noticed fogen’s involuntary eye tick. Sporadic blinking is associated with Tourette’s Syndrome/Tourettism and is frequently a co-occurring condition with ADHD.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourette_syndrome

        – Among patients whose symptoms are severe enough to warrant referral to clinics, obsessive–compulsive disorder (OCD) and attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) are often associated with Tourette’s. Not all persons with Tourette’s have ADHD or OCD or other comorbid conditions, although in clinical populations, a high percentage of patients presenting for care do have ADHD

        – Comorbid conditions (co-occurring diagnoses other than Tourette’s) such as attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and obsessive–compulsive disorder (OCD) are present in many patients seen in tertiary specialty clinics. These other conditions often cause more functional impairment to the individual than the tics that are the hallmark of Tourette’s, hence it is important to correctly identify comorbid conditions and treat them.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Elongated earlobes are common in people with Asian and Native American ancestry (which is basically also Asian). Fogen is part Peruvian – probably the source of his long earlobes.

        In Asia, this is considered a sign of beauty. Buddhas always have long earlobes in pictures and statues.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        PS – I thought Fogen looked a little better – a little less gray – than the last time we saw him. The mannerisms are the same though.

      • groans says:

        @ Michael Stewart – Thanks for your insights. But could the tic(s) possibly be due to medications? I just wonder because maybe it’s a recent development (i.e., since last winter/spring)?

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        I thought he was blinking and rolling his eyes because of his contacts.. My eyes get dry and irritated when I wear mine and I have to blink a lot. The circles under his eyes today are worse than the days following his fake broken nose too, even with the tan he has. I guess he’s been stepping out getting some sun lately.

        Also, I noticed his hair is a little shorter and I still don’t see any spots on the back of his head where there should be no hair due to scars from deep lacerations, more proof that they were minor cuts and explains why there wasn’t swelling around these cuts that would be there had his head been slammed against the concrete dogwalk.

      • LeaNder says:

        His face is looking more and more bloated and his earlobes are weird

        I notice his earlobes too for the first time, wondering why. Besides there is something peculiar about the bloated face. For whatever reason it triggered: just explode, Fogen.

        But on a more serious note. I know people with quite a bit of weight, but their faces usually aren’t that bloated. Actually no one’s is.

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Leander,

          Reviewing the videos I thought how similar fogen looks today to the “old” Chaz Bono. Some of this must come from water-retaining drugs. But for the first time I watched him from the rear as he waddled out. He has saddlebags! Surely he’s not wearing bulletproof Jockey shorts! (Not that there has ever been a155 kilo jockey.)

          • LeaNder says:

            Piranha, I think I figured out today why the ears drew my attention suddenly. The earlobe sticks out so curiously. Could that be the result of of the bloated face? I compared with Mattai’s (if that is how he spells), I had to concentrate on his ears to at all notice them. No lobe sticking out.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Leander,

            Yes, today I noticed that fogen’s earlobes flip out at an angle. They did not in the past.

            Looks like Judge Nelson added a flip to her hair style.

            Fogen going to the same stylist, to build some affinity with the judge?

          • jm says:

            Looks like GZ got some sun or maybe Shellie gave him a fake tan to try to make his face less pasty. Wonder what’s up with Shellie’s perjury case? Long creased earlobes could be sign of heart problems in men. One would expect with all the extra weight GZ is hauling around he may develop other health issues. .

          • Xena says:

            @PiranhaMom.

            Yes, today I noticed that fogen’s earlobes flip out at an angle. They did not in the past.

            Well now, after GZ has eaten all the food, ShelLIE has to chew on something. 🙂

          • jm says:

            Ewww Xena. I don’t want to think about ShelLIE chewing on anything associated with GZ or vice versa.

          • Xena says:

            @jm. (gulp) ROFLMAO!

      • aussie says:

        Steroids often leave the face bloated.

    • groans says:

      It was SO s-l-o-w that I turned it off. (It was too sleepily distracting for me to be able to continue multi-tasking!)

      I think it’s safe to predict that West (and his “style”) will bore the heck out of jurors. O’Mara has similar tendencies, though not quite as boring (who could be?).

      And I think the defense has shown all along, and again today, that they are “over trying” their non-existent case. It gives them something to do, but it won’t help them in the trial. It’s more likely hurt them – especially with a sequestered jury who will want a thorough, but EFFICIENT, presentation of evidence.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        “And I think the defense has shown all along, and again today, that they are “over trying” their non-existent case.”

        I half-expect a movie director to jump into the picture yellling CUT! CUT! CUT! . Let’s make this REAL, PEOPLE!

  26. ic2fools says:

    Addition, excellent article. 😳

  27. Tzar says:

    let’s do something very simple
    listen to the first 48 seconds of w11’s 911call
    Say you assume those mortified screams are
    a. Zimmerman
    i. does it sound like he is in the process of getting punched in the face 20-35 times?
    ii. Des he sound like he is sustaining the second half of a 1 minute onslaught of his head being bashed in the concrete?

    b. Trayvon
    i. does it sound like the screams of someone in the process of raining down 20-35 mma punches on someone’s face?
    ii. does he sound like he is seconds away of rendering his opponent unconscious with his final head bash into the concrete?
    iii. do you think someone can carry out that kind o activity while sounding so convincingly mortified and terrified?

    This is not that complicated

    • BillT says:

      from day one just reading zmans claims i wondered how on earth can anyone believe one word of that nonsense?

    • Rachael says:

      Exactly. Anyone who has ever heard punches to the face knows that the screaming would be punctuated by the blows and the same for the head bashing thing that would most likely render one unconscious if it were true.

      I am not saying the expert testimony isn’t important becasue it is, and together with common sense is devastating to the defense.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Definitely we would hear “the voice” yelling help changing and stopping and starting if Fogen were yelling and being punched and smothered at the same time. That wasn’t happening.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Rachael, common sense is the key words to this entire incident. a lot of folks are just ignoring the evidence and, just jumping on the save Fogen band wagon because, this is something that they themselves, would love to do.

        I’ll say one thing though, this case has awakened the closet racist in this country.

    • groans says:

      @Tzar:

      a.i.) No way.
      a.ii) No f’g way.

      b.i.) No f’g way.
      b.ii.) Are you f’g wit’ me?? No way!
      b.iii.) Geez, what planet DID YOU come from?

      Not complicated at all.

    • racerrodig says:

      This all comes down the common sense theory.

      Fogen is Buzzard Bait…..

    • type1juve says:

      @Tzar

      “This is not that complicated.”
      You are so right! That’s what infuriates me about this case. It’s obvious that it was Trayvon screaming, yet people still pretend to think that it’s his murderer.

    • LLMPapa says:

      Tzar says:
      June 6, 2013 at 7:23 pm

      let’s do something very simple
      listen to the first 48 seconds of w11′s 911call
      Say you assume those mortified screams are
      a. Zimmerman
      i. does it sound like he is in the process of getting punched in the face 20-35 times?
      ii. Des he sound like he is sustaining the second half of a 1 minute onslaught of his head being bashed in the concrete?

      With your permission, my friend, I’d like to add a number (iii) to the above:

      iii Does it sound like someone being smothered by an assailant having one hand over his MOUTH and one hand over his NOSE?

      Also a general curiosity on my part…exactly how does one vocalize those screams while swallowing copious amounts of blood?

      • Tzar says:

        Papa you can add whatever you want
        Thug I’ve got a question for you and the peanut gallery.Why does George and his team not want this audio in? Is this not evidence of his self defense in the purest sense? George should want video of the conflict of it was available, non? This it’s as close to a preponderance of his innocence, non? If what I did happened happened, I shot this child in self defense, then the most objective and probative datum from that night can only reveal what I did happened and therefore can only reveal my self defense. Right George? In fact this kind of evidence is the next best thing to an immunity hearing. So does George not want it?

        • racerrodig says:

          Fogen himself said he wished someone had this on tape not knowing it was…….there’s that Karma thing again.

      • Tzar says:

        Thug=though
        Lmao

      • Tzar says:

        Did=said
        Damn Swype auto correct, damn it to hell

      • Tzar says:

        Papa you can add whatever you want.
        I forgot the reason why I left out the smothering, but I had a one…yes it was because the the last second or two before the shot are audibly crowded and confounded my questions a bit, I wanted to keep it real simple.

        The “blood swallowing” is spot on as a question, imo. I had forgotten about that one at the time of the post.

        Though, I’ve got a question for you and the peanut gallery. Why does George and his team not want this audio in? Is this not the best evidence of his self-defense in the purest sense? George should want video of the conflict if it was available, non? This is as close to an exposition what happened that night when he acted innocently, non? If what he said happened happened, ie. he shot this child in self defense, then the most objective and probative datum from that night can only reveal what he said happened and therefore can only reveal his self-defense. Right George? In fact this kind of evidence is the next best thing to an immunity hearing. So does George not want it?

        The truth is this tape reeks of his guilt, everything about it says that he is guilty and I mean EVERYTHING. That thing we all feel in the pit of our stomach when we hear the screams is the thing that we know George does not have because of this audio and this is how we know he is guilty of depravity and murder 2.

      • aussie says:

        HAHAHA

        He MUST have swallowed the blood, there sure weren’t any left to show on the outside.

      • pat deadder says:

        I was married to an abusive husband for 25 years left over 20 years ago.He hit in the face.I always had black eyes after and I never screamed for help because a person is in self defense mode like trying to protect your face.IMHO a person can’t concentrate on screaming while being punched in the face.This man needs to be convicted.Not one person I know believed his BS story from day one.

    • LeaNder says:

      perfect argument, Tzar. Nothing to add. Or maybe, if I may? 😉

      Strictly while listening to Dr. Nakasone, one point stuck out for me, science is developing. I added and the evidence won’t go away. And I found it as interesting as others that Fogen lowered his head at point the tape was played. So Fogen, you could be acquitted but the same science you try to bank on now could well haunt you till the end of your days. The evidence will not go away.

      If we consider Luce’s statement above and add the shooter maybe only would stop to scream while concentrating on how to get his gun out and aim carefully to not shoot his other hand. At least there would be a variation in the intensity, it feels. There is one reason, why he cannot cry for help after though, people may notice the difference. What about: Help me restrain this guy? Did he or didn’t he need help anymore?

      I also seriously doubt that you forget how you screamed, if it was something close to a life threatening experience. I absolutely doubt this. In his scream re-enactment, at a point he was completely unaware a tape existed, he simply verbalized his statement. I cried for help, but nobody helped me.

      Tiny little barks, nothing like the scream.

      This is from a 2013 paper for the Acoustical Society of America by a Australian researcher:

      I consider the aural-spectrographic approach to forensic voice comparison (also known as “voiceprint” or “voicegram” examination) in light of this principle, and also the current widely practised auditory-acoustic-phonetic approach (these two approaches do not appear to be mutually exclusive). Finally, I challenge the audience members to consider what each of them thinks constitutes the relevant scientific principles regarding acceptable practise, and then consider their own approach to forensic-acoustic analysis in light of those principles.

      I would like to know more about the spectrography program Reich uses or more precisely it’s difference to other programs that visualize sounds. There must be a difference for the images of Reich’s WP article are not even vaguely similar to the visual representation Diwataman based his analysis of coon versus punk on. In any case what the Doctor suggested is that you need training in phonetics to read the output of such a program. And I admittedly also suspect the program that Reich uses is different from Diwataman’s or Jera’s Sony Sound Forge.

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @Leander,

        Astute and scholarly observation, Leander.

        “Strictly while listening to Dr. Nakasone, one point stuck out for me, science is developing. I added and the evidence won’t go away.”

        That the evidence REMAINS is a brilliant observation.

        (I’ll add, “consider the source” — a colloquial observation in the US – please take this as a compliment … richly deserved.)

        Thank you so very much for scouting out and including the Australian acoustic expert’s report. Complete, balanced and sane.

  28. EdgySF says:

    Good Lord, I hope you’re right. Thank you, Professor.

    Who in their right mind honestly believes that a man armed with a gun would scream for help? Ever? Much less for 45 seconds???

    Against a skinny, unarmed teenager. That would never happen. The scenario defies logic.

    Plus…wouldn’t they have to include thr tape if only to compare it to the “help” sample the killer gave Det. Serino? GZ agreed to provide an example of how he yelled for help, and it’s nothing like the tape. Of course, the killer did not know at the time that the scream was recorded. He just figured that somebody had to have heard it.

    The first witness in the scene is on record as saying the killer was calm, cool & collected. There’s no way that matches the intensity of that scream. Plus his vitals were normal!

    Anyone with ears that can hear knows that that is a “death scream.” And the killer is on tape at police headquarters looking fresh as a bunny. Not at all shaken up.

    • EdgySF says:

      Also – IMO, the killer had his gun out.

      That is why Trayvon was crying bloody murder. He saw the weapon on him.

      I have a visceral reaction to guns. I think most people instinctively do. Trayvon was terrified, as I suspect we all would be.

      IMO, the killer was telling Trayvon to shut up.

      • groans says:

        IMO, Jeremy saw the gun drawn, too. There was a different sense of urgency in his voice in the background during the 911 call when he said to his partner, shortly before the gunshot, “They need to call in a car now!” (Or something very similar to that.)

      • tonya B says:

        I concur

      • ladystclaire says:

        I have always thought he had that gun out, holding this kid at gun point. At what point did he cry, when he eas told that Trayvon died? I read that on another site but, I don’t believe it.

    • abbyjj says:

      @Edgy, Yes, it defies logic. As Judge Judy has been known to say on frequent occasions, “It’s a lie because it makes no sense!”

    • ladystclaire says:

      I agree EdgySF, how unbelievable it would be, that a person with a gun, would be screaming for help when, he is armed? this makes no sense what so ever.

      Fogen knew nothing about that scream, until Serino played the NEN tape for him. I believe that either his father or one of his racist buddies, told him that he had better own those screams as his own.

      • Mary Davis says:

        @ Edgy. Yes it really does defy logic. How logic is it that a grown a** 28 year old armed man, professional trained athlete and fighter, bouncer, neighborhood watch captain (and this is the nice side of him), would be scared of a 17 year old skinny teen.

        Instead of holding his own, this hero, this protector, this super star simply screamed in fear the whole time. There is no logic to this at all. If a jury actually believes this, Lord help us all.

  29. ic2fools says:

    Thank you Professor, we know its’ been a long day and trip home. We greatly appreciate your tenacity and loyalty.

    Soon as I get past my surgery and its medical expenses my family will be sending donations to ya’ll. ,(no insurance right now, but my family has helped me much with med expenses )

  30. Xena says:

    @Professor. Thank you for the explanation. Judge Nelson is very intelligent, knows the rules and the law, and will most likely allow expert testimony for voice identification. IMO, West made a mistake for the defense today when playing that recording. Now that Judge Nelson has heard it, it probably peeked her interests to hear what the experts have to say.

  31. fauxmccoy says:

    follow

  32. Rachael says:

    vet

    • Rachael says:

      I know there was some lady who used to be a prosecuter talking about this the other day (or at least I saw the clip the other day) and she said something about it had to be GZ screaming because he was the one getting hurt.

      Well first of all, I do not believe that he was the one getting hurt.

      And then there is not so much what you can hear but what you can’t here – and that is any more screaming after the gunshot.

      It makes no sense if someone was getting hurt and screaming that they would stop screaming. But someone with their heart and a lung blown out would.

      • ic2fools says:

        It makes no sense if someone was getting hurt and screaming that they would stop screaming. But someone with their heart and a lung blown out would.

        Absolutely!

      • Nef05 says:

        Exactly. But, just out of curiosity I wonder what argument O’Mara will come up with to counter your perfectly logical and sensible assertion (that I expect the prosecution will use as well).

        I wonder if this is supposed to be W6’s job. For that matter, I wonder whether O’Mara has gotten past MMA-style blows, yet. If he tries to get that from W6 to explain why it was fogen who was screaming, and I don’t put it past O’Mara to deliberately try to present recanted testimony to the jury, BDLR will wreck him.

      • crazy1946 says:

        I simply have a difficult time accepting that people still accept Fogens version of what happened! If the state had been allowed to openly release the records, and things like Fogens posts on the internet, his cell and text messages and such, perhaps the public perception of him would be different! But then again, if Travon had not been guilty of walking in the rain wearing a hoodie while black things would not be the same either!

      • Cercando Luce says:

        I think that a person screaming for help, who then shot his attacker, would pause and then call for help again.

      • diary73 says:

        Serino really should have point blank asked him when he stopped yelling for help.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Rachael, what really makes no sense to me, why in the hell would someone who is carrying a damn gun on them, would have a need to be screaming for help in the first place. common sense is not something that’s hard to come by because, even though some may have a limited amount of it.

      • heartofhearts says:

        ladystclair, Excellent point.

        You may or may not remember fogen being on Hannity but I think at that point he was already coming up with his alibi. He said he didn’t even remember having his gun on him. Really? But he cannot keep his story straight because earlier or later in the same interview he said he carries it with him everywhere but work. The fact that he would do the same thing all over again tells me there is something very wrong with him. I suppose he may of been playing to his supporters which I find insane that he even has any but hey, he only killed a black kid. Its sickening. This guy has absolutely no credibility.

        I certainly hope we find out more about what medications he is taking and why.

        The other thing that really fry’s my cupcakes is his brother saying what a passive and easy going guy his brother is and just doesn’t have it in him to behave as an aggressor. I wonder how those anger management classes worked out for him because he didn’t volunteer for them!

        • Xena says:

          @heartofhearts.

          He said he didn’t even remember having his gun on him. Really?

          On Hannity’s, GZ said that he carried everywhere other than to work. During the voice stress test interview, he said that he had forgotten that he was carrying.

      • Malisha says:

        Crazy1946, I don’t think they really DO believe Fogen’s version of events. They are mental cowards and emotional bankrupts. They prefer to think that a bad Black kid hurt a good white man (nobody believes he’s Afro-Peruvian, even his silly brother; that’s just unmitigated bullsh!t) and thus got himself killed than that a “good white man” went hunting to bring himself in a trophy bad Pba-lack kid and when he failed, shot the kid dead without the sightest sign of regret.

        They do not WANT to believe the version that is, at this point in time, actually undeniable. They do not WANT to believe that the “NW captain” lied, cheated [his landlord, his lawyer, all and sundry] and stole, and that that same NW captain committed murder and then lied in his teeny weeny voice with his big boo hoo sighs. “The suspect again emerged from the darkness,” he wrote. Big dramatic drivel-shnivel. “emerged from the darkness.” Ooooooh, chills, huh? His “bette noir” was a pBa-lack kid. he was scared of a leisurely pBa-lack kid sauntering along in the drizzle. Poo widdow scaredy waredy Fogen.

        They don’t want to believe that. They don’t like the guy trying to be a hero and only amounting to a pissy little scaredy cat.

        They don’t want to watch that humiliating scene. They would rather join the criminal in being liars and lying to themselves about what happened so they can save the little scaredy part of themselves that is always peepee-pants afraid of shadows.

        That’s why they pretend to believe that Trayvon attacked and beat up Fogen. They can’t face the idea that Fogen was ALL THE WAY WRONG and the victim was actually just that: a victim of the depraved act of a murderous villain — somewhat like them. He acted on his arrogant psycho-rage. They don’t but they’re afraid of it and don’t admit its presence, in themselves or in Fogen.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Great post, Malisha.

        “I think that a person screaming for help, who then shot his attacker, would pause and then call for help again.” Cercando – totally – and call 911 again to see where SPD is and to send medical help.

        Seems like all Fogen was interested in was his gun thug drama dreams.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Passive, easy-going guys stay in their shrucks after their 911 calls and go shopping.

    • ic2fools says:

      delta

  33. groans says:

    Beta?

  34. Nef05 says:

    Alpha?

    • Nef05 says:

      That clears up a lot. I confess I nodded off more than once During the Dr’s testimony, but I did see various portions where he stated aural testing was acceptable and the methodology with the wave lengths. Even Mr. Mantei had the Dr stating that those methodologies were acceptable and other experts may simply have a difference of opinion, which is to could be expected.

      JN seems eminently reasonable. I believe she’ll let it in. I think she realizes People are smart enough to look at everything and make their own decision.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Now I’ve got it right:

      LeaNder reminded me that when Trayvon’s phone cut off, the minutes were rounded up to the next minute by T-Mobile.

      That means that the 911 call, that picked up recording at 7:16:11, had to have picked up after as much as one minute and 10 seconds had elapsed.

      Okay, that means that gz had been engaged in the encounter for as much as 1 minute and 10 seconds before the 911 call picked up. So, it is then that the expert Reich states that he finds gz uttering the words: “These shall be…” near the beginning of the 911 call.

      So, after having made physical contact with Trayvon, and having been in contact with him for as much as one minute or some part there of, we hear gz still speaking from a superior posture: “These shall be…” in biblical tones. Hardly a person in fear for many seconds already.

      By this time there can be no question of any sneak attack, nor does the evidence bear out that there was one. Trayvon’s hands bear no evidence of any contact with gz, nor any blood smears or scrapings from under his nails. Hands that had, supposedly, been in contact with a bloody head, a bloody face, a bloody saliva filled mouth and nose, had not a trace of gz’s dna or other trace evidence of contact.

      Yet, here is gz after nearly a minute of close physical contact with Trayvon, still exhibiting the elements of secure superiority. Exactly as you would expect of a 28 year old male ex bouncer, trained in martial arts and knowing painful wrist control techniques. Of which Trayvon knew nothing at all.

      While there is no evidence at all that Trayvon mounted any defensive action other than trying to pull away. The evidence shows that gz held on to Trayvon, while he withdrew his firearm, aimed it carefully, while pulling on Trayvon’s garments in a controlling manner that would have prevented him from withdrawing, and then firing the fatal kill shot without any warning!

      Add the fact that this all happens nearly 45 feet south of where gz’s claimed surprise attack, prevented him from returning to his truck and you have a story that cannot possibly pass any smell test at all.

      Twice, since the two of them met, the testimony of DD and the recorded 911 call, both find gz exhibiting a securely superior posture, while, at the same time, both instances portray and record Trayvon to be in fear or in pain, or both!

      Stay tuned as the “walls” of evidence are likely to close even further on what really happened that night, and crushing any hope of freedom for the killer gz.

      • racerrodig says:

        Well said as always….don’t forget those phone records. I’m thinking The Moron Man is thinking to himself “maybe Bernie will forget about them”

      • ic2fools says:

        Your onto it Lonnie, Fogen never feared only fear was to finish the ‘deed’

        Mr. Reichs’ letter of 911 analysis clear said ‘it was ongoing analysis’ so there will be more exposed of Fogen words and phrases connected into sentences or utterances he made before and after he murdered Trayvon.

        Just a hunch FDLE may have tested Jons’ car for Fogen blood, once I read your opinion of jon driving Fogen to the back gate. FDLE sure cut a large portion from back of Trayvons’ hoodie.

        Fogen said he flipped Trayvon over got on his back. There maybe a bloody Fogen handprint we’ll see the rest of Bernies’ evidence soon.

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @Lonnie … ”

        Re: “Add the fact that this all happens nearly 45 feet south of where gz’s claimed surprise attack … ”

        Well, it sure wouldda been a surprise attack if that tall skinny kid emerged from hiding behind those spindly 18″ “bushes!”

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          That would be correct… Trayvon tells DD that “he’s behind me again!”, meaning that gz has found Trayvon, not that Trayvon has found gz.

          The problem here is that Trayvon was talking to someone and he was telling them what ideas were coming into his head, given the conditions and what he was seeing. Everything he says is geared towards, coming from a mind that is seeking to escape and/or end this hostile situation of which he has become extremely concerned.

          On the other hand, everything gz says and does, even words he says that are captured without his knowledge, shows a mind in a clearly superior mind set, confident and hunting and sure that the victim presents no threat.

          Upon effecting “capture” some vigorous activity causes Trayvon’s phone to fall and disconnect. DD hear’s Trayvon’s inferior pleadings: “Why are you following me for?” and “Get off, get off”, while the counter parties verbalization’s are superior demands, informative and/or commands. “What are you doing around here?” [Instead of “I’m the NW I haven’t seen you around here before”.] DD’s call drops and a 911 call picks up some 70 seconds later and we still find gz issuing superior verbalisations. “These shall be…” is not an utterance evocative of any life threatening situation a person may be facing.

          Where, according to gz’s survival story, the attack upon him came quickly and persisted until he discharged his weapon.

          Ear witness testimony closely confirms eyewitness testimony, bolstered by what remnants are picked up on a 911 call that recorded the incident, gz’s superiority is unquestioned, his own safety is beyond question as confirmed by the lack of evidence that Trayvon ever gave offense with his hands.

          The question that still remains puzzling is, since gz was under no assault, or in any danger at all, why did he decide to shoot and kill a black child? How did he come to believe that illegal events in the neighborhood, would justify taking a life? What made him believe that as the NW Captain, he had any duties or responsibility, beyond simply reporting to NEN and either waiting for an officer or leaving?

          Oh, wait… He didn’t believe any of those things at all did he? After all, if he did believe he had a duty, or that what he was doing was justified or his responsibility, then he would not have contrived falsehoods to conceal that he believed no such thing. All of his falsehoods are designed to make it appear that any violation of rules and law, were either coincidental (possession of the firearm while on patrol) or excusable (shooting a lethally violent attacker).

          Never once does gz make the claim that he was doing the right thing because…!” Everything is coincidence, happenstance and/or unavoidable and excusable, or else action that had to be taken without a choice. Egad! The man is toast!

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Lonnie,

            Re: “DD’s call drops and a 911 call picks up some 70 seconds later and we still find GZ issuing superior verbalizations. ‘These shall be…’ is not an utterance evocative of any life threatening situation a person may be facing.”

            Lonnie, I think that would have been “This shall be … ” (“the last time you rob anybody here.”) May even have been truncated to “This’ll be the last time you rob/steal around here … ”

            Keep in mind this is a guy who pronounces his vehicle as “schruck” so the s in his statement may be less sibilant “ss”, and more “sh:” “Thish’ll be … ”

            I think he was still role playing as “SuperCop,” trying to burnish his credentials with the HOA and SPD (not that he could burnish them enough for SPD employment, but he needed those contacts to prove his value to the HOA.)

            Keep in mind he dashed after Trayvon after saying “These assholes, they always get away … but not on me.”

            He was determined to make the capture. I think what the acoustics guy heard reflects a continuation of that line of thought.

          • Xena says:

            @PiranhaMom.

            @Lonnie,

            Re: “DD’s call drops and a 911 call picks up some 70 seconds later and we still find GZ issuing superior verbalizations.

            DeeDee’s call disconnected at 7:16. T-Mobile does not document seconds. The call disconnected within seconds of GZ coming into physical contact with Trayvon because DeeDee did not hear beyond “get off.” The first 911 call clocked in at 7:16:11. That call captured the gunshot at 7:16:56. In all, from GZ meeting Trayvon to killing him took place in one minute, give or take a few seconds.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Lonnie,

            Re: “DD’s call drops and a 911 call picks up some 70 seconds later and we still find GZ issuing superior verbalizations. ‘These shall be…’ is not an utterance evocative of any life threatening situation a person may be facing.”

            Lonnie, I agree with you. But I also think that would have been “This shall be … ” (“the last time you rob anybody here.”)

            May even have been truncated to “This’ll be the last time you rob/steal around here … ”

            Keep in mind this is a guy who pronounces his vehicle as “schruck” so the s in his statement may be less sibilant “ss”, and more “sh:” “Thish’ll be … ”

            I think he was still role playing as “SuperCop,” trying to burnish his credentials with the HOA and SPD (not that he could burnish them enough for SPD employment, but he needed those contacts to prove his value to the HOA.)

            Keep in mind he dashed after Trayvon after saying “These assholes, they always get away … but not on me.”

            He was determined to make the capture. I think what the acoustics guy heard reflects a continuation of that line of thought.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes, but my point is not to focus so much on what exactly was said, but to what him having the ability to say it, shows that no lethal attack had begun in the 70 seconds prior to the 911 call picking up.

            In the remaining 45 seconds, Trayvon screams in pain and fear, while gz appears to speak more “conversationally” and/or certainly not in pain or terror, and he is the person who is armed with a weapon that is concealed. Even if his shirt and jacked rose up, only someone behind him could have a chance to see anything, if they knew what to look for.

            Since Trayvon was never behind gz, gz knows that his weapon was never in contest. So, during those final 45 seconds, Trayvon was screaming in pain and terror and gz was not and was preparing to use his firearm, despite the fact that there was no threat to himself at all. There is no proof that gz was ever in danger of being killed by the unarmed child. While the unarmed child screamed and pleaded to be allowed to go.

            Thus gz decided, for whatever reasons, that he would take Trayvon’s life and lie about why he did it. He must have had, what he believed were ironclad supporters with unquestioned power to set him free.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Lonnie –

            I agree with you 1,000% I’m just offering up a variant of “These shall be … ” that is less stentorian and more in line with Zimmerman’s speech patterns. Until they decipher the whole statement, it’s up for grabs.

            But that jerk really could have been lording it up over his helpless victim with “These shall be the last seconds of your life.” BANG!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yep and that is true too. It’s remarkable to find him speaking at all, if engaged in an ongoing life threatening attack as he claims. If he was struggling to free his weapon he would not have been screaming or talking at all, but his entire focus would have to have been on gaining and keeping control of this dangerous weapon. Instead he’s giving neither the supposed beating, nor the attention needed to control his weapon any serious thought at all. Instead he finds the mental “breathing space” needed to converse with people nearby and to simply talk to his supposed attacker, while his attacker is screaming in pain and terror. Exactly what you’d expect his adversary to do, upon being held in a wrist control lock and/or seeing a weapon being held on himself.

            In a fight for your life your focus is very very narrow, there’s no time to think of things to say, you have to keep your mind on the fearsome life and death struggle. Only the person in the superior position can take the luxury of talking.

      • LeaNder says:

        maximum but unlikely 1 minute 10 seconds.

        Can anyone tell me when the last voice expert will speak? Or will they do only the jury selection today?

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