Zimmerman case is simple: Trayvon Martin acted in self-defense

Friday, May 31, 2013

Good morning:

I hope to forever put to rest the following argument: Since the defendant had a right to get out of his vehicle and a right to follow Trayvon, those actions cannot be considered as evidence of guilt.

As I will soon show, that argument makes about as much sense as arguing that the purchase of a gun with intent to kill someone cannot be considered as evidence of premeditation because the person had a right to purchase the gun.

Both arguments fail because a lawful act can be committed to achieve an unlawful result. Yes, indeed. A would-be bank robber can purchase a clunker to use as a getaway vehicle after robbing a bank.

As any lawyer familiar with the law of conspiracy well knows, conspiracy indictments typically allege the commission of lawful acts by co-conspirators in furtherance of objectives of a conspiracy. Thus, simple events like using a cell phone to confirm a scheduled meeting with a co-conspirator are often charged as overt acts in furtherance of a conspiracy.

Therefore, the issue is not whether the act itself was lawful. The issue is what was the actor’s intent when he committed the act.

Nobody would seriously argue that the defendant could not get out of his vehicle and follow Trayvon Martin. He certainly could.

The relevant questions in this case are why did the defendant get out of his vehicle to follow Trayvon Martin and why did he lie about it afterward?

I do not believe the jury is going to have any difficulty figuring out the answers to those questions: The defendant intended to prevent this “asshole” from getting away and he shot him to death when Trayvon resisted. The defendant lied about it afterward because he did not want to go to prison.

Trayvon Martin is the only person who acted in self-defense.

That is basically all there is to this case.

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666 Responses to Zimmerman case is simple: Trayvon Martin acted in self-defense

  1. Woow! says:

    Who is the gentleman with the white hair that is always sitting behind the defense. He came forward during one of the recess breaks and I saw he was wearing a badge clipped to his tie?

  2. ic2fools says:

    LLMPapa new video MISSTATED

    O’Mar there skid marks your Legal Briefs emitting a horrible stench!

  3. Since when does a journalist not fact check information/news before presenting it to the public? Rene Stutzman need to be held accountable for this.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      @SG

      it goes much higher than stutzman in this case. her editor, the managing editor and the entire OS owes a retraction for reporting misinformation. take action, it’s important. please join me in contacting the managing editor. i will suggest that sunday evening is not the best time. i will be calling them on monday and writing to their advertisers.

      they have foolishly opened themselves to a major liability here and it is our duty to hold the press’ feet to the fire.

      • Fauxmccoy,check this out from the updated article at the OS.

        http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-trayvon-martin-fight-video-20130602,0,6996223.story

        On Thursday, in preparation for the anticipated release of the fight video, an Orlando Sentinel reporter drafted a story describing it, intending to publish it once the video had been made public. A web producer prematurely posted it to OrlandoSentinel.com Friday but quickly took it down after discovering the video had not been released. The story correctly characterized the video. After readers found a cached version of the story online Sunday, Zimmerman’s attorneys released their statement and decided against posting the video.

        This bs came from straight from the CTH. They’ve been discussing this video of Trayvon fighting for months. How could O’Mara do this? How could he take this bs to the court from a bunch of racists misfits who want nothing more than Zimmerman to get off for killing a black kid even if they have to deceive the court.

      • cielo62 says:

        Faux McCoy- I have never done such a thing before. Could you save all your addresses and link them here? I am willing but I don’t even know how to get started!

        Sent from my iPod

        • fauxmccoy says:

          cielo — of course i will gladly share info that i gather. i plan to start with a phone call to the managing editor tomorrow. i will have to turn my ad blocker off in order to see what lame asses advertise there, but will share what i come up with. thank you for joining me. this is almost as important to me as the original petition we signed for gz’s arrest. this is the press we are talking about — the last bastion of government oversight and look at this flipping mess. i’m disgusted.

  4. Mark O’Mara LIED to the court knowing his information was false and then claimed “OOPS” and Rene Stuzman helped him do it. It was all part of a plan to get that lie out to the public. I’ve completely lost faith in the system with anything goes and then claiming a mistake later.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      SG2 says

      Mark O’Mara LIED to the court knowing his information was false and then claimed “OOPS” and Rene Stuzman helped him do it.

      yup. more hideous than o’mara’s sleazewad actions is that the press is complicit. at this point, we cannot solely point the finger at stutzman, but her editor and the managing editor.

      the managing editor has chosen to pull the story regarding o’mara’s (and their) grievous error regarding the homeless person fight and who was actually fighting. now, only misinformation stands at the sentinel. the sentinel is as complicit as the defense for failing to check facts and taint the jury pool.

      i don’t know about the rest of you, but this is worthy of direct action and i for one will do so. i shall be contacting the managing editor as well as anyone above that person along with notable corporate advertisers regarding my complaint. i invite you all to join me.

      • Rachael says:

        I’m joining you.

        • racerrodig says:

          You know where I stand. What purpose does it serve to lie and then after being busted be as genuine as Fogens “I’m sorry for the loss of your son” shit.

          Both of them walk away and say “…think they bought that?”

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Shouldn’t Attorney Crump, Tracey Martin and Sybrina Fulton be notified as well? This ongoing campaign by the paper to savage their child at this sensitive time, while the wounds of his tragic death are still open wide. Should certainly be redress able and subjected to vigorous judicial review! I do not believe that I am the only one who can see the terrible pain and suffering this papers salacious stories have caused.

        • Any chance Trayvons parents could sue MOM for libel…defamation or some such?

          All while fogen sues NBC for the same thing…..

        • fauxmccoy says:

          lonnie asks

          Shouldn’t Attorney Crump, Tracey Martin and Sybrina Fulton be notified as well?

          yes, the likely should be notified if they are not already aware.

          i am approaching this not from the perspective of a political litigant for defamation, but as the average citizen who demands accurate reporting from the media. i can only cover the concerns which related directly to me, the reader. i think that a campaign of readers who demand better fact checking, combined with threat of boycott to national sponsors may get some action. the sentinel has a big trial coming up which they hope to use to sell their rag — they better be getting their facts straight. they owe it to their readers.

          by all means though, let crump know and he can do as he pleases.

    • parrot says:

      The defense holds Judge Nelson in contempt.

    • tonydphotog says:

      I knew immediately he lied because it was so obvious! A video of a homeless man being attacked? Just like the one fogen selflessly helped bring justice to? Definitely, not a coincidence!

      A really bad lie!

      Pretty much everything the defense is claiming to be evidence is fabricated! Even the graduation photos are fake!! I went to the Seminole State College Sanford/ Lake Mary website, to try and find graduation photos. The gymnasium where graduation is held looks nothing like the one in fogen’s photos. Much bigger! And the banners in the background are only for Women’s basketball, and stop at 2008.

      Mark O’mara and Skeletor need to be held accountable for their actions!

      • racerrodig says:

        It’s a pretty fucked up show when the defense lies about homeless black men at every turn…..yep…..pretty bad. No worries, their asses are grass and God has the lawnmower.

    • ic2fools says:

      The question now is will OM write a formal apology to the Court? He posted on gzld for the zidiots, why? To prepare them for when he apologies in Court in hope of saving himself from the consequences.

      What zidiots fail to realize and are in denial about is the fact that OM lie was pre-mediated in order to boost the beg for donations. He has mastered what makes zidiots tick to loosen their purse strings. . And they will forgive him, never letting go of that lie think some way or somehow OM was forced to make that apology.

      Notice after court OM said in that wftv interview with Belicher/Sheaffer he may need Sheaffer if it is found he said something untrue. Leads my belief that he knew when he stepped into court Tuesday that he would tell that lie. Waited for that money to flow in, when it slowed to a trickle he posted that last minute apology. Ya’ll know me by now “IT WAS A SETUP”

      OM needs to be held accountable for that, not a wrist slap either!

      Zidiots will feel the burn during the trial, after conviction and when OM is barred. Ha, some of those fools will send OM money for his legal defense.

  5. Rachael says:

    God this man is SICK!!!!! Yeah, just try to unring that bell you asshole!! Damn you to hell!!!

    Correction and Apology Regarding Misstated Nature of Trayvon Martin Video

    on 02 June 2013.

    During the Tuesday, May 28th hearing, Mr. O’Mara misstated the nature of video from Trayvon Martin’s cell phone which was included in the Defendant’s 3rd Supplemental Discovery. He stated that the video showed “two buddies of his beating up a homeless guy,” when what happened was Trayvon Martin, along with a buddy, was videotaping two homeless guys fighting each other over a bike. Though it was unintentional, it is a particular concern to us because we are and have been committed to disputing misinformation in every aspect of this case, not causing it. For that, Mr. O’Mara apologizes.

    http://www.gzlegalcase.com/

  6. Zimmerman Legal Case ‏

    Correction and Apology Regarding Misstated Nature of Trayvon Martin Video in Zimmerman case.

    http://goo.gl/CL9rB

    During the Tuesday, May 28th hearing, Mr. O’Mara misstated the nature of video from Trayvon Martin’s cell phone which was included in the Defendant’s 3rd Supplemental Discovery. He stated that the video showed “two buddies of his beating up a homeless guy,” when what happened was Trayvon Martin, along with a buddy, was videotaping two homeless guys fighting each other over a bike. Though it was unintentional, it is a particular concern to us because we are and have been committed to disputing misinformation in every aspect of this case, not causing it. For that, Mr. O’Mara apologizes.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      SG2 posts

      Correction and Apology Regarding Misstated Nature of Trayvon Martin Video in Zimmerman case.

      GAG!!!

    • fauxmccoy says:

      it’s stuff like this that makes my blood boil. people will remember his first statement and forget about this part, if they ever even find out about it. just like john’s recantation — the zimmerman apologists only recite his first, error riddled statement and forget the rest.

      will quote my husband here regarding both zimmerman and o’mara — “play stupid games, win stupid prizes”. prize time is only 9 days away.

    • type1juve says:

      Oh, so now comes the apology after the lies have been put out there for public consumption. This defense is so full of shit that it’s sickening. The media and specifically the OS have been complicit in trying to let a murderer go free. This case is not that complicated. A racist murderer killed a child and he needs to be punished for it, it’s that simple!

  7. ay2z says:

    Is what is going on in this case, the dirty tricks to win at all costs, to poison jury pools, to attack with conspiracy theories against the state (The People) ?

    Is this what the legal profession wants for a judicial system, publicly attacking lawyers for criminal activity (with holding evidence, suggesting and pointing to a lawyer in the media conference crowd outside the courthouse?

    Waht was that supporter of GZ, youtube user ‘Trayvon George’ up to with the WESH feed after court was over, listening in and showing the lawyers as they discussed issues in earshot of court microphones? (I say youtube channel Trayvon George’ supports the defense because he/she/they have attracted an audience by posting full uninterrupted professional grade copies of the recent hearings, and now they have added youtube captions to these same videos, that ask for support to the gz legal defense fund).

    This is justice equal to all, or just those who can commit a heinous enough or novel or socially contentious criime, or one who for some reason can engage media and public interest over time for some reason?

    New standard set by some self-proclaimed Rennaisance Man?

  8. Judy75201 says:

    If any of the depos taken had evidence in fogen’s favor, O’Mara would have ordered the transcript(s) immediately. There can be no doubt of that.

  9. dianetrotter says:

    If racism is addressed during the trial with AA’s blamed for being overly sensitive or race baiters, prosecution should bring up the Cheerios ad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM7Q1mNg5q0

    • Two sides to a story says:

      My gosh, people are effin’ nuts. I’m sure all these racists claim to not be racists as well.

    • Rachael says:

      That is crazy. Who would even look at a commercial and come away with those thoughts? It sickens me to know I breathe the same air as people like that.

  10. ic2fools says:

    I have a question, what the hell has Wesley and OM cooked up? Now it seems as if Krudbo was the tool (i use the term loosely) for nefarious purposes.

    ‘O’Mara said to the Judge, Mr White indicated he would only disclose his client to me in this hearing after I subpoened him to appear.’

    Why would White request to be subpoened and only say on the stand who Ben Kruidbos is and what he had done?

    What do ya’ll think?

    • I’m not sure, but it sounds to me like West knew Kruibdos would be fired when his name was revealed, so West insisted on not revealing it unless subpoenaed to court and asked to reveal it on the witness stand.

      It’s ironic that this subterfuge is so unnecessary because the information is irrelevant, inadmissible and not even exculpatory.

      • ic2fools says:

        Thank you Professor. Seems we will find out very soon their motives. I wouldn’t be surprised if Ben Kruidbos got in the box an start chantin’ ‘Justice for Z’ when questioned by Mr. De La Rionda.

        Here’s a tidbit Professor:

        MOM said in his interview w/Kathy Belich/Bill Sheaffer: “if I said something to the Judge that turned out to be completely untrue by indisputable evidence, I might need Mr. Sheaffer.” (Bill Sheaffer is a legal analyst)

        HAHA! O’Mara told on himself, speaking out about possible needing legal representation for the lies he has told attempting to mislead court.

        ‘that turned out to be completely untrue by indisputable evidence’ —- TRANSLATES INTO: ‘I know what I said to Judge Nelson and my actions in this case completely untrue and intended to mislead. By law I will be legally charge for these actions the very near future and will need legal representation.’ ‘Will ya’ll please donate to the Mark O’mara Legal Defense Fund?’

        BTW, I say O’Mara is stackin’ Fogen donations for his own defense, ain’t that a hoot!

        Apologies, I haven’t located the wftv link for O’Mara w/Kathy Belich/Bill Sheaffer interview taken after last hearing.

      • ay2z says:

        Do they have witness stands ‘in’ camera?

      • ay2z says:

        But it does support the arrest or bust, conspiracy spouted by MOM and the Zimmermans. The arrest was only because of the improper bowing to ‘the masses’, another key defense ‘term’. The ‘masses’.

        What the heck is ‘the masses’ supposed to mean? A synonym for ‘voters’?

        • ic2fools says:

          Thank you ay2z! I appreciate you finding this link.

          Its’ time I share with ya’ll. I’m feeling terrible not participating more researching more to share, you know doing my part to keep up and responding to all of your comments.

          I have been quite ill lately and will be having surgery within the week, just not up to par, I tire quickly now. I will be much better soon.

          Again, thanks ay2z for your help and everyone for your replies.

          Now back to business, ’cause I got a few things to say about OM so called apology and correction…..

          🙂

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Yeah, I thought this subterfuge seemed awfully convoluted and risky considering the rules of evidence would cancel it all out anyways.

  11. Malisha says:

    During Serino’s interview of Fogen either on 2/27/2012 or shortly thereafter, he told Fogen that someone had called the police anonymously (and he explained that a little bit, suggesting that the caller knew Fogen and knew that he might be dangerous) to say that they (he was careful not to reveal even the gender of the caller) witnessed Fogen confronting, restraining and interrogating Trayvon Martin. Serino, at this point in time assuring Fogen that he was ON HIS SIDE, actually said that he HOPED that person was not going to call back because if that person DID call back, Fogen might be looking at something completely different that he never even imagined. Fogen stays quiet while this is being said. I have not seen this interview on video; only audio.

    Not in a million years would I believe that the “person” was able to maintain anonymity with the police unless the police simply WANTED to disregard that person’s statement. Then, once Corey took over, I am sure that the “person” was identified (after all, the “person” had to be within view of the events on 2/26/2012 and the “person” had to phone the police from some telephone somewhere!) and I’m sure that person’s statement was taken. Yet I am pretty confident that the “person” would not be on the witness list. Why? Because that “person” is a rebuttal witness. He or she will only be called if and after Fogen puts on a defense of “self-defense.” So since it’s not testimony for the main case and it’s not exculpatory, the defense does not yet have it.

    But if O’Mara and West together have a combined I.Q. in the double digits and if either of them has actually listened to the tapes of the Serino interviews, they have to know it’s there. It’s there.

    “I don’t know ’em”
    “I’m begging you”

    These comments fit right into a scenario of Fogen confronting, threatening and interrogating Trayvon Martin. And if anybody wants to believe that Fogen would do that without his gun drawn, that’s OK too but I don’t.

  12. ic2fools says:

    Part 3 Zidiots Hero Ben Kruidbos:

    These fools truly DO NOT UNDERSTAND that Mr. De La Rionda turned over all the data in its’ purest form ‘RAW’ that was for durr-fense to retain their own experts to interpet!!!

    This is what happens when one does not partake in the company of intellectually reasonable thinking people, with a legal scholar ‘The Professor’. Writing continually about the law and it applications, for this case and others in which we learn from, churning our reasonable thought provoking comments.

    ZIDIOT COMMENT:

    The Governor/Bondi are going to want this SHUT down immediately, perhaps a confidential pay out to the whistle blower/attorney.

    (remember the blank CD’s turned over by BDLR, missing texts from DD, missing info on the night TM died, could it have been deleted from MOM’s information?)

    ————————————————————————————

    Shyte on a hot tin roof!

    First of all KrudBo breached confidentially of his position giving the defense information. As of yet it is not know if pics of a mj potted plant, hand holding gun were ‘CREATIVELY INSERTED BY KRUDBO’ then given to durr-fense.

    We will know quite soon though. According to White KrudBo was released on administrative leave shortly after he testified on Tuesday:

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/05/29/3422379/lawyer-zimmerman-prosecutor-withheld.html

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Fogen supporters will just cry more railroading . . . Not two brain cells to rub together, I’m afraid.

      • ic2fools says:

        I’ve tried to make sense of it, only to realize it was a fruitless effort.

        Reading they truly believe in their ongoing comments that Fogen has the best legal defense. Goes to say if anyone of ’em needs legal counsel and retain the likes of OM or West, they may as well pack their bags for a long incarceration.

  13. tonydphotog says:

    I just found this document on one of the racist blog sites, listing several motions in limine the defense should file. I don’t think anything was filed from this, but isn’t it proof that they’ve been telling the defense what they should do?

    I did get a chuckle reading this. Some of the motions for limine they listed are ridiculous!

    When I clicked on this link, I had to scroll up above the comments to see the list.

    http://annettekblog.wordpress.com/2013/05/29/may-29-2013/#comments

    • ic2fools says:

      Gosh tonydphotog those mofos’ are insane! Seriously now, they believe that last hearing works in OMs’ favor!

      Part 1——————————————————————–

      They actually DO NOT UNDERSTAND ON SHRED OF FORENSICS OR EVIDENCE!!!!!!

      COMMENT:: George Zimmerman can get an acquittal just by focusing on the events and forensics of that night.

      Judging from Mr. O’Mara’s comments the defense got what they wanted.

      Ohhh my goodness!!!!

      • ic2fools says:

        Part 2 Zidiots’ theory of Conspiracy in States Attorneys’ Office:

        I must say first while reading the following all I could think of is ‘This is Taaffees’ doing’

        ZIDIOT COMMENT:

        I go back again to the document posted here by someone which claimed that BDLR tampered with witnesses in the past. He coerced false testimony from a witness under oath, and recorded. When the witness wanted to come clean and tell the truth, BDLR told him that if he didn’t say exactly what he said in the coerced deposition, he would charge him with perjury. BDLR also wanted to place the witness in a jail cell with another defendant he was charging with a crime, and wanted the witness to act as a snitch as to what that defendant said to him. BDLR is pure corruption and conspirator. He is evil and has no place in the legal justice system.

        REALLY!!!!! Not Mr.De La Rionda,whose reputation is impeccable. Damn HATERS, will say anything to bring a good man down.

        http://annettekblog.wordpress.com/2013/05/29/may-29-2013/#comments

      • Malisha says:

        Oh they can’t admit how bad it looks for them this close to trial. Professor Leatherman pointed out that they failed to get the transcripts of the depositions — how negligent is that? If you needed those depositions, you damn well better realize you needed those transcripts. These guys WISH the case was a family “law” [oxymoron] case where all you have to do is call people names. Come trial, they’ll be standing there going, “who’s on first?”

      • ic2fools says:

        @Mailsha
        Zidiots lack of common sense and reasonable thinking is chilling. Those people could be any of our neighbors, co-workers, etc….

      • racerrodig says:

        One of the Zidiots labeled the defense strategy “brilliant”

        Yep, Bernie fell right into that “I have an unbeatable Appeal” defense.

    • dianetrotter says:

      My thoughts: It is better to be silent and thought a fool than to post on the Internet and remove all doubt.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Ms Annette is a Canadian Fogen supporter, and yes, she frequently contacts and receives messages from GZLC. Many Fogen supporters look up to her for this. She promotes her unfounded opinions as fact, based on her own opinions of evidence.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        PS – Oh, and like many racists, feels she is not racist. But she knows for sure Trayvon is a thug and she’s thoroughly obsessed with Trayvon’s family and often promotes her negative opinions of them as fact.

  14. evokid7 says:

    To reply to my response above. I was questioned am I stereotyping gay people, as molesters. I don’t think so!!! BOTH OF MY PARENT ARE GAY. My blood father I met once, and my birth mother, gave me up and choose drugs over me, and more importantly herself. Me being the only child I was raised in a strict home, with a grandmother who did not want me around and had no problem taking out her disappointment of her gay daughter on me, and me hoping I could be some other place, and just hoping to make it to be 18. I am surprised to see that RZJR is the oldest because, in my opinion fogen looks the oldest and the most worn out. I don’t know either of their story’s outside of this case. But there is a saying that older eyes see better than younger eyes. With me being in my mid-twenties, I think GOD’s eyes see a whole lot better than mine. So when S/he imprints a thought on my mind, I observe it and listen with the ear, behind the ear. As someone who was molested by someone in my church, who now looking back groomed me. It was molestation to me. But to, that person it was sex. I know they know they did wrong. When they were worried I would tell (But did not ask me not to tell.) I finally broke it off and I told. I say this, because I believe that RZJR is a opportunist in the highest oder. His behavior is of someone who needs to be validated. There is a buffer in him, but he chooses to ignore that, for the sake of, any type of attention. When he sits by the family, or tweets hate and racist things. It’s him having his ejaculation in another form. Meaning that, I have a friend who is a older transexual, (who I need to call 🙂 and say high to: i’m bad with social connection sometimes)…. Maya use to have me in knots laughing, at some of the sexual encounter she, would have with men. One time she told me, that after such an, encounter the guy told her, (in a straight face and tone) “You know, you are going to hell right?” Even though they both just, got through being naked. To me Robert comes off as that type. The kind you can’t leave your husband around. The kind who will see where, you work at and just make any type of excuse to be around you. And if you give him the slightest type of attention, to him you are full on F******. I also say that, because at times I have done something; such as, buy a box of cereal, ate to bowls, take them back to the store, with the milk- and swear up and down I didn’t like them, and would even request to speak to the store Manger, if the employee dared question me. Even though I was and knew fully aware that I am in the wrong. So I can see my behavior in others being displayed, because I don’t judge nor, come of as sainthood. I would never molest anyone, or kill someone over anything, (now I will whoop some ass if provoked) and thats only cause I live alone and have no family or kids. So everything falls on me. And living in FLA, people will try you big time. But I am not ashamed or afraid to admit that, when I am in the wrong, I can put on the poker face all the way to the end. Even when I know I am lying, and not just be lying but because I am in ego, and I don’t wan’t to be called out. Which I believe the Zimmerman brothers are doing. I can sense a dark energy around them. It is as if Robert is jealous that Fogen is getting this attention, so to sort of Molest him again, he goes on air and in the media, to talk about shit nobody care’s about nor believes. I can see that also by him sitting next to, Trayvon’s family. What is the purpose if not, only to agitate and bother the family. He knows that he doesn’t have it in his power to, get Ms. Jackson or Mr. Crump disbarred. But instead of him being the adult, and finding his place and center within himself. He chooses to behave in ill manner ways. I don’t know if that explains my above post. I don’t see gay people as molester, because they are gay. But I will call a behavior a behavior, without judgement from me. I can’t prove my theory but then again I don’t need to. Because I am very assured that every-time Robert open’s his mouth he has that tug at his mind and heart that he is wrong. He know’s inside, that It is over for Fogen, and that after this trial and justice is given for Trayvon. He is going to be left with his life still and no matter how risky he thinks black people are, his very own thoughts are going to reflect back to him that, his life is not worth a damn. So I guess this trial is a distraction for him, in order to not have to face the truth for his actions, and his choices.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Interesting. I do feel that Jr knows in his heart that his brother is lying to avoid prosecution. He’s just a bit too shrill and a bit too strident. If Fogen was truly innocent, I don’t think there would be a need to go on such a visible campaign. Jr is on the anger/ denial step of accepting the truth.

      • evokid7 says:

        Thank you for understanding. I am not labeling anyone. Just going by my experience, and wisdom to call a thing a thing. I feel Jr. Is acting out of his own self hate, and conflicting idea’s about himself. I feel he is ashamed to be gay, because he might not have started out, in the “NORMAL” way a gay person might have. If that makes sense- by him molesting his brother, he might have been doing that out, control and sexual gratification. I lean more on the control. Because he can’t molest, the Martin family, or their attorneys. But he can, do so by egging them and being in their personal space. I only say that because that is what I would do, or better yet what I have done. My actions might have been one thing, but my intentions were another. There are plenty of people with EBT card’s who will only shop, or use them late at night. Fully forgetting they applied, and they are hungry and need help. But instead of admitting, and being ok with themselves that they need help, and there is nothing wrong with being supported. They put on a face after the food and items have been wrong up. When they open their mouths to take, a bite of whatever. The are not on food stamps or support in their minds at that moment. And they feel as if everything they are eating the food they paid for with, their own money. They won’t allow themselves to feel the sting of being on food stamps, out of shame and self hate. That they are not living up to the standards that, people in society think they “should” be living. Even though they have the option to live up in whatever higher standards they feel is right for them.

        • cielo62 says:

          Evokid- you can’t be “turned” gay. If Jr is ashamed of being gay, blame his family and church. Being molested doesn’t “make” one gay.

          Sent from my iPod

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Simple, O’Slimy asked Jr to move and sit near the family in hopes he might provoke someone to slug him. Exactly the kind of news O’Slimy would relish! Could you imagine the headlines?

    • GirlP says:

      Evokid7, I’m so sorry that this happen to you, know that there is real love in the world, your story made me cry….You may be right about the Zimmerman’s and I know that things can go on in a family that defies anything that is right. It’s apparent that the Zimmerman home was not a healthy environment for children and that IMO GZ’s parents ignored anything that they did not consider normal, I doubt they ever got proper help for GZ (if he could be helped), and would not be surprised if RZ Jr molsted GZ and it was ignored. However, molestation does not make a straight person gay my oldest brother is gay and was never molested all of his suffering came from society all of his family loved him including my brothers and my dad homosexualty just is. When you look at the Zimmerman family dynamics GZ comes from a sick family group and I would not be surprised at anything that has happened in that family.

  15. ay2z says:

    Prof says “the Zimmerman case is simple: Trayvon Martin acted in Self-Defense”.

    Ben Crump says that he and Trayvon’s parents, believe the killer will be found guilty “Not on emotion, not on innuendo. Just on the evidence. The evidence is clear as day.”

    Prof and Ben are on the same page and LLMPapa has provided the short videos to illustrate this clarity.

  16. kllypyn says:

    (Repost because im a lousy typist.)…MEMO TO ALL JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON SUPPORTERS….I’d like to publicly apologize. to the Martin’s because over the past year and 4months in addition to getting angry when the Zimmerpukes would post lies about Trayvon,i also got angry at them for not publicly defending trayvon. And each time i felt like a low life scumbag. because i knew my anger was unwarranted. With what they have been put through what right did i have to be angry at them for?

    They did nothing but morn the lost of a son brother and cousin. and fought for justice for him. Sometimes i get really emotional about this case. I’ve been planning on this apology for months but i didn’t have the guts to write it because i was afraid of what you would think of me. I wanted to send it Mr Martin and Ms Fulton but i don’t know their e-mail addresses. A true justice for Trayvon supporter has no business being angry at the Martin’s. Again i’m sorry. Kelly D Payne. P.S. Sometimes i get overly emotional about things

    • racerrodig says:

      Don’t fret. There is a master strategy at work. Trayvon’s family and support are taking the high road and have not given the Zidiot Nation anything to take hold of. The rest of it is what we’re here for.
      It will all pan out and become plain as day.

    • cielo62 says:

      I think they’d be more impressed with your passion for justice for their son who is a total stranger to you. That is something we all share. I, too, would love to punch MOM in the eye, and hit gz square in the crotch with my knee. But the legal system will do their job. They will BOTH get something much worse in the years to come.

      • racerrodig says:

        I hear ya. I have this awesome set of tools…..all of which, if we use our imagination, can be used in a somewhat Medieval fashion, especially that vise, oh and that 4 foot pry bar, the vise, the cutting torch, battery acid……I’m thinking mmp can chime in here as well.

        Don’t get me wrong, I don’t wish Fogen any harm, I’m just sayin’ I have this awesome set of tools.

    • ay2z says:

      Thanks, wish we could get a direct link to post.

    • ay2z says:

      Looking forward to seeing The Martin’s on ‘The View’ on Thursday. Not everything is about the fogen on June 6!!

      That’s the same ‘The View’ where Barbara Walters set fogen and his agent MOM, out on their ear when they had the nerve to call and try to get an invitation to an interview after the failed attempt at free hotel stays for the killer and his bond-lying deceptive wife.

  17. kllypyn says:

    MEMO TO ALL JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON SUPPORTERS….I’d like to publicly apologize. to the Martin’s because over the past year and 4months in addition to getting angry when the Zimmerpukes would post lies about Trayvon,i also got angry at them for not publicly defending trayvon. And each time i felt like a low life scumbag. because i knew my anger was unwarranted. With what they have been put through what right did i have to be angry at them for?

    They did nothing but morn the lost of a son brother and cousin. and fought for justice for him. Sometimes i get really emotional about this case. I’ve been planning on this apology for months but i didn’t have the guts to write it because i was afraid of what you would think of me. I wanted to send it Mr Martin and Ms Fulton but i don’t know their e-mail addresses. A true justice for Trayvon supporter has no business betting angry at the Martin’s. Again i’m sorry. Kelly D Payne. P.S. Sometimes i get overly emotional about things

    • ay2z says:

      Kllypyn, everyone reacts in different ways, and you are absolutely right in your observations and that we can’t judge the Martins for not responding and engaging in the mudslinging. To not respond each and every time some one spews hatred, must have torn these parents apart and they must have been frustrated too, every moment of every day. But these parents are amazing, and I’d doubt they do not require our apologies for whatever we do with hearts in the right place.

      No doubt your heart was and is, in the right place and you don’t need to concern yourself with what we think, except that you might get a quiet standing ‘o’ for your passion and dedication.

      Take a deep breath, you are in a safe place here with good people.

      Sybrina and Tracy have had to learn to grieve and honour their fallen son, in ways no parent should have to, under the invasion of public scrutiny and with the hatred of hate groups doing anything they can to disrupt the justice system and attack them personally.

      They, above all, will understand the frustrations of the people who stand beside and behind them and have been an incredible example for all.

      • ay2z says:

        edit mistake… “doubt that they would require our apologies…”

      • racerrodig says:

        Yep, Trayvon’s parents and family have taken the high road and have not gotten into a pissing contest with the likes of Robbie the racist. In fact, as much the collective members of Team Trayvon have not really done that either. Discussing this, exploring theories and such is one thing, waging a twitter / media war is another altogether.

  18. ay2z says:

    Read this and enjoy!! (isn’t a little bias revenge sweet, especially when served up by a certain so-often biased media outlet?

    🙂 SERVES THEM RIGHT for having pro-defense on the brain!

    Enjoy! Am sure a big retraction with flashing lights at the bequest of the defendant will be put up, but in the meantime……

    Zimmerman said he shot Martin after the teen attacked him. The defense says Zimmerman, who is white and Latino, jumped to conclusions about Martin because of his race.

    Screenshots anyone??

    • Malisha says:

      ay2z, read what?
      Can you give me a url?
      Thanks.

    • parrot says:

      Where did you find that gem???

      • ay2z says:

        well, should I tell ya, or should I make ya guess…. Hint, what media mainstream has posted about this case as the mouthpiece of police and the defense…..

        Love the irony…. 🙂 Love it!!!

        (won’t tease for long, I promise….)

      • ay2z says:

        Malisha and Parrot….

        Damned, they already deleted that bit….. and it was NOT my typing, I did a copy and paste so no mistakes. It WAS there in the lower part of the article after a bit about Z pulling his ‘9-millimeter’.

        http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-trayvon-martin-peace-miami-20130601,0,1898187.story

        By Desiree Stennett, Orlando Sentinel
        9:46 p.m. EDT, June 1, 2013

        The high-profile trial for their son’s killer in Seminole County is a week away.

        And Trayvon Martin’s parents expect a “rough road” during George Zimmerman’s second-degree-murder trial in Sanford.

        Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin joined their attorney, Benjamin Crump, as roughly 300 people gathered for the Community Program of Peace, Justice and Prayer on Saturday afternoon at Bethel Apostolic Temple in Miami.

        “We’re going to have to sit through all the negativity,” Tracy Martin said during an emotional prayer service.

        He was referring to defense attorney Mark O’Mara’s attempts to cast his son as an aggressor whose actions more than a year ago prompted Zimmerman to fire in self-defense.

        Prosecutors say Zimmerman profiled, pursued and fatally shot 17-year-old from Miami Gardens on Feb. 26, 2012, in Sanford.

        Zimmerman, a Neighborhood Watch volunteer, will go on trial June 10 in one of the most-watched trials of the year and the biggest in Seminole County history.

        Fulton’s voice shook as she talked about how her son’s death catapulted her family into the international spotlight.

        “I would have rather gone back to my job with my same two kids, to my same house,” Fulton said.

        But in the months since her son’s death, she said she has accepted her role as the mother of the teenager whose untimely death sparked cries for justice all over the world.

        “I no longer have any regrets and say, ‘Why me?’ because God decided it was me,” she said.

        Crump told the prayer service that jury selection alone could take two to three weeks, a prediction that drew reactions of surprise from participants.

        Crump accused the defense of resorting to “a desperate attempt to try to play on people’s prejudices” by releasing texts and photographs taken from Trayvon’s cellphone that O’Mara said show him as a fan of weapons, fighting and marijuana.

        “It’s bad enough they had to lose their child. It’s tragic they had to assassinate his character,” Crump said.

        O’Mara, though, has argued that such evidence shows that Martin might have been on drugs, paranoid and prone to violence the night Zimmerman encountered him in his father’s Sanford gated complex.

        The unarmed teenager was on his way back to his father’s girlfriend’s home in Sanford after going to a nearby 7-Eleven to buy candy and a soft drink.

        The Los Angeles Times contributed to this report. dstennett@tribune.com, 407-420-5447 or @desi_stennett on Twitter

      • ay2z says:

        parrot, the OS switched headline stories, found my correct story link from earlier today.

        Link again is
        http://www.orlandosentinel.com/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-20130601,0,1642862.story

        And, a correct cut and paste–> see last paragraph.

        🙂 The irony is rich!

        …..
        Crump accused the defense of resorting to “a desperate attempt to try to play on people’s prejudices” by releasing texts and photographs taken from Martin’s cellphone that O’Mara said showed him as a fan of weapons, fighting and marijuana.

        “It’s bad enough they had to lose their child. It’s tragic they had to assassinate his character,” Crump said.

        O’Mara, though, has argued that such evidence shows that Martin might have been on drugs, paranoid and prone to violence the night Zimmerman encountered him in his father’s Sanford gated complex. The teenager, who was black, was on his way back to his father’s home after going to a nearby store to buy candy and was unarmed. Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer, spotted Martin, began following him, and then pulled his 9-millimeter.

        Zimmerman said he shot Martin after the teen attacked him. The defense says Zimmerman, who is white and Latino, jumped to conclusions about Martin because of his race.
        ….

        • racerrodig says:

          “The defense says Zimmerman, who is white and Latino,…”

          I wish they’d make up their minds….Afro – Peruvian, Get it right.

          WTF are they gonna tell the jury…..

          “As you African American jurors can see, well…it’s undisputed my client who is Afro – (unintelligible) and for the rest of you….well, It’s undisputed he’s white, just look at his drivers license.

        • parrot says:

          Wow! The truth at last.
          Thanks, ay2z.

        • I noticed that neither Rene Stutzman nor Jeff Weiner wrote the article (Tina Susman wrote it). Could it be that the OS is attempting to move toward a more balanced approach instead of nonstop shameless pimping for the defense?

      • ay2z says:

        About the new author of the OS article, yes Prof, that crossed my mind, however, the skeptic in me thinks there might be just a widening of the company resources, with sharing the writing with LA and others as the trial nears?

      • ay2z says:

        The article with the comment was by Susman of course, the other related article I linked above, was by Desiree Stennett.

        Stuz and Weiner are both caucasians, Stennett and Susman are both black women reporters.

        Could be this will naturally bring balance, at least now the Stuz and crew in Orlando, don’t run the main pipeline from the defense any longer.

        Here are the ‘new’ faces on Twitter.

        https://twitter.com/Desi_Stennett

        https://twitter.com/@tinasusman

  19. Santrina says:

    Prayer service held for Trayvon Martin http://www.local10.com/news

  20. Ezz-Thetic says:

    Folks y0u have to see this to believe it. A black preacher/Zimmerfan who bashes Trayvon Martin. Unbelievable. Uncle Ruckus lives.

    • Manning is a disgusting fool. I suspect someone is paying him. He does it to the President as well. I read a while back that SS paid him a visit.

      • Malisha says:

        I don’t think people like Manning need to be paid to spout this drivel. I think he realizes that if he were saying rational, reasonable things he’d be a little tiny fish in a big pond full of people of his same caliber and they’d each have very little power and very little notoriety. If he takes this bizarre “Wizard of Oz Gone Mad” position on stuff, though, he stands out from a crowd and that makes him feel “special.”

        Very self-referential. My friend the Montessori teacher would say: “He is very deviated.” And she wouldn’t mean “septum.”

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Eh, just a black conservative Rush Limbaugh.

    • dianetrotter says:

      Why OH why did I click the link to hear this idiot??? I am a Christian and offended that he wastes time talking this crap. I guess he wants to be a zidiot. He talks like he has absolutely NO idea of why this case has so much significance. I don’t believe in calling people Uncle Tom. There is absolutely nothing about what he is saying that gives me any idea that he knows about Christianity. I will find his website so I can leave comments. What an idiot!

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Thanks for the heads up.

      I will NOT click on the link.

      • dianetrotter says:

        I went to Youtube and tried to blow this fool out. You can only leave a short message. I tried to leave this: I listened to this and wondered are you any more a minister than Al Sharpton. Why didn t you appeal to people to let due process take course. You bring up all types of stereotypes and you are fitting a stereotype yourself. Why not cover 1) Why was George Zimmerman not arrested in the first place. 2) Why are you so sure it was a matter of self defense? Have you followed all of the discrepancies, evidence, and testimonies. 3) You are the only person I have heard say Al Sharpton is homosexual. You are gossiping. The Bible addresses that. Why are you not appealing to everyone to pray that the Lord will cause the truth, whatever it is, to come out. You say you are a pastor. The Lord knows His sheep.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Good job, Diane!!

      • ay2z says:

        same here, thanks.

    • Malisha says:

      Oh Manning is just a total wacko. I first saw him when he opined (citing his mamma as his source of information about how to judge other people, by the way) about the “white trash” status of President Obama’s MOTHER. The fool played the dozens with the President so he could call himself a commentator; he’s — excuse me — a horse’s ass but he doesn’t know which end of the horse he’s on. Perhaps he should go to the racetrack and take notes so he can figure it out.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I’m not sure notes would help him! I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s all a big act. Yuk.

      • racerrodig says:

        What is his deal ????

        • dianetrotter says:

          The idiot is a straight up kook! Obviously no role model for AA youth. Anyone that attends his “church” or listens to him has to be brainwashed. He doesn’t sound like a minister of the gospel. He sounds like a bearer of the bull!

          • racerrodig says:

            I’m thinking that when the pass around the plate at his “Church” people take money out.

    • tonydphotog says:

      So Trayvon was a bully, a fighter, a drug addict, difficult, etc. I’m surprised he left out murderer, and molester! Oh, wait, fogen is the murderer, and molester. My bad.

      The people who know for a fact that Trayvon was a thug are complete strangers who didn’t know him at all! Someone needs to let the people (who knew Trayvon personally) know what kind of person he really was!

      • racerrodig says:

        Ya gotta admit the hypocrisy of Moron O is just off the scale.

        It’s a sure sign of a criminal if they have (allegedly) a picture of a gun

        It’s a birthright to carry a real gun

        Sure sign of criminality if (allegedly) you have a picture of pot plants

        It’s not an issue to be a drug addled nut case in therapy

        If it’s alleged you were attacked…..call it fact

        If you are gunned down……you earned it

      • Rachael says:

        That is as succinct as I’ve seen it yet.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Don’t bother the creep is just trying to attract attention to himself.

  21. Trayvon Martin’s family speaks at Miami peace gathering

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-trayvon-martin-peace-miami-20130601,0,1898187.story

    With George Zimmerman’s second-degree murder trial just days away, the family of slain teenager, Trayvon Martin, spoke at a peace and prayer meeting in South Florida Saturday afternoon.

    Trayvon’s parents, Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin spoke along with family attorney, Benjamin Crump, at the event that started at 3 p.m. Saturday at the Bethel Apostolic Temple on 119 Street in Miami. A crowd of more that 1,000 people were expected to attend the Community Program of Peace, Justice and Prayer.

    Since the February 2012 shooting in a Sanford subdivison, Zimmerman, a neighborhood watchman, has said he shot and 17-year-old Trayvon in self defense. The much anticipated trial is scheduled to begin on June 10.

    • The Sentinel updating.

      Sybrina Fulton: “I no longer have any regrets and say ‘why me,’ because God decided it was me.

      http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-trayvon-martin-peace-miami-20130601,0,1898187.story

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      excerpt from the article that SouthernGirl2 linked:

      “Trayvon’s parents, Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin spoke about the “rough road” ahead….”

      .

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Please remember, Sybrina and Tracy, that you do not walk alone.

      You have so many of us walking arm in arm with you in spirit.
      .


      .

      When you walk through a storm
      Keep your head up high
      And don’t be afraid of the dark.
      At he end of the storm
      Is a golden sky
      And the sweet silver song of a lark.

      Walk on through the wind,
      Walk on through the rain,
      Tho’ your dreams be tossed and blown.Walk on, walk on
      With hope in your heart
      And you’ll never walk alone,
      You’ll never walk alone.

  22. Trained Observer says:

    Do you think Whispering Sister, Boobles & Gladazz, the Granny and Fogen’s Missus will show up to support? Likely only limelight seeking Joonyar will show on most days.

    • Rachael says:

      IDK, but I do think if She’lLie doesn’t show up there will be lots of speculation of all kinds of things.

      • Trained Observer says:

        After last week’s hearing and all the confusion on whose list she was on, am not sure if defense or state is still intending (or not) to call her as a witness. If she’s set to testify, she likely won’t be in courtroom until after her testimony. (Am still laughing over Sim’ s comment that her perjury case is “loosely” tied to Fogen’s murder case.)

        Let’s see now … it apparently was HER gun, HER husband who shot Trayvon, HER testimony and lies under oath on their poverty to get low bond for Fogen, HER willingness to talk code about that money on taped jailhouse calls, and HER effort to shift that secret money around without calling attention to their windfall fortune. So how loose is that?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        “(Am still laughing over Sim’ s comment that her perjury case is “loosely” tied to Fogen’s murder case.)”

        That made my ears prick up too.

    • ay2z says:

      Jnya will show up, get himself into some position with Trayvon’s family lawyers again so he can get his ignore on camera and get a dig at Natalie again, now that he has threatened her publicly via his twitter, to ruin her career.

  23. George Zimmerman trial will bring media village, public-assembly area

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-trial-logistics-20130602,0,1080541.story

    SANFORD — With the George Zimmerman murder trial just one week away, a village of satellite TV trucks is about to pop up outside the Seminole County criminal courthouse.

    For months, courthouse personnel and others have been getting ready for what’s expected to be one of the most-watched trials of the year and the biggest in Seminole County history.

    Mostly, they’ve tried to figure out how to prepare for the crush of people expected to descend on the 215,000-square-foot building once Zimmerman’s second-degree-murder trial begins June 10.

    They’ve hashed out who gets a seat in the courtroom, despite its limited space, and who does not.

    They’ve put together detailed — and secret — plans on how to ensure the safety of Zimmerman, Trayvon Martin’s family, witnesses, the judge and jurors.

    They’ve implemented a set of rules to manage protesters and spectators — they’ll be confined to a specific part of the lawn — and enlisted a group of local black pastors to watch the proceedings and try to keep everyone calm.

    They’ve also agonized over anticipated traffic jams on U.S. Highway 17-92, the road that fronts the courthouse, as well as what to do with all the cars sure to fill the courthouse parking lot.

    And they’ve strategized over how to make sure there’s enough electricity, Wi-Fi and radio-frequency capacity for the multitudes about to descend on the $45 million building.

    “It’s a big deal,” said Steve Hyvonen, news director at WKMG-Channel 6, who plans to have 15 staffers at the trial every day. “It’s a very big deal.”

    And it’s a challenge for the 9-year-old building, built by county officials who had no idea of the demands that would be placed on it because of a confrontation one rainy evening between Zimmerman, a Neighborhood Watch volunteer with a gun, and Trayvon Martin, a 17-year-old high-school junior.

    The courtroom

    The courtroom seats have been carefully parceled out. Thirty-one will go to journalists. Six are being set aside for Trayvon’s family and six for Zimmerman’s.

    Twenty-four will go to members of the public through a daily lottery. Four have been set aside for black local ministers, part of a much larger group of Sanford-area religious leaders who’ve been working with the U.S. Department of Justice since Trayvon’s shooting to minimize racial tensions.

    The Rev. Valerie J. Houston, pastor at Sanford’s Allen Chapel AME Church, said they’ll watch the proceedings, communicate with their congregations and go outside and talk to protesters if there’s a need for crowd control.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      And the same mentality continues.

      excerpt from paragraph 6:
      .
      …….and they have “enlisted a group of local black pastors to watch the proceedings and try to keep everyone calm.”

      Yet, they have not enlisted WHITE ministers to keep the zimmies calm???????

      Back to the same pattern of suspicious black profiling????? This time simply because blacks might be gathering?

      • Rachael says:

        I was kind of taken aback by that too – they mentioned it more than once.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Yup.

        And, we all know from our experience in various discussion forums this year, how a great number of the zimmies have “behaved” in post after post.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          This is a good opportunity for blacks to show that they’re intelligent people too. What blacks should do in response is, pick a location even further away from the courthouse to hold their rally.

          Because distance doesn’t really make much difference in this digital age. They can bring their grills and lawn chairs and plenty of tripods, video and still camera’s microphones and laptop computers. A few portable generators and they can be on the net “Live From The Sanford Trial Rally” Hahaha… Lots of good food and fun, some serious speeches and maybe even some live feed from the courtroom. Work together an make a peaceful unifying event of it, with the world watching. The media is sure to cover it that way as well. But, if not, they’ll still get millions of viewers over the web on their own.

      • There were no arrests during the protests either.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Exactly.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        That’s kinda strange and offensive.

        • racerrodig says:

          ????? How many peaceful rallies / prayer services / vigils have been held for Fogen ?? None………..’nuff said. No rallies anywhere of record, just Robbie the Racist and crap from the Desk of Papa the Liar and Momma the Ignorant.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Like this caught them by surprise, not! They could have selected a bigger courtroom or even taken over an auditorium or school gym and made some changes. But nope, they just let things drag along until they portend to create a situation that makes it excusable to exclude every body and cause maximum confusion and trouble.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        There ought to be a law that they need to select appropriate sized facilities for high profile cases. I’m not saying they need a football stadium but, hey, a 200 seat venue shouldn’t have been too difficult to arrange.

  24. Malamiyya says:

    It seems compelling to me, too.

    • Rachael says:

      That is a bit misleading because yes, it was a homicide. However, what GZ is trying to say is that it was a justifiable homicide, IOW, A homicide is justifiable when committed in self-defense.

      So yes, it is a homicide but…

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Ha – but even junior went on a twitter campaign objecting to that term. He doesn’t like Trayvon being termed a victim of a homicide even though he’s clearly a victim of a homicide.

    • ay2z says:

      SG@, remember this?

      Serino: At the time of the encounter with him, was there anything in your hand?

      Flashlight,

      Serino: Ok. Your flashlight.

      Was it working or was it not working?

      [It was] dead.

      It was dead, ok it was not clicking on. Was it in your right hand or your left hand?

      Do you realize how these cases can go?

      Yes sir.

      Ok, well how can they go?

      “… justifiable homicide… er… [inaudible].”

      (and of course, remember what he told Hannity, played dumb about the self defense ‘SYG’ term, never heard it before.

  25. LLMPapa says:

    After all this time, I still can’t get past 53.5″.

    That’s just too strong for me to believe as coincidence.

    • Rachael says:

      I agree. But the really ironic coincidence is that there had been people out there yet no one saw the actual shooting – it was captured on the call, people heard it, but no one saw it. People were there up until the exact time of the shooting but no one supposedly saw it.

      I mean I can sit at home all day and my phone never rings but just the moment that I step out to tak my dog outside, it rings and I miss it so I understand, but hmmmm. So perhaps that is a coincidence too but IDK.

      • EdgySF says:

        Sigh. Wouldn’t it be nice if an eye witness DID exist, and we just haven’t been informed yet?

        I know, not likely….

        But it does make me wonder what “arrows” the prosecution has in their quiver, to borrow a phrase from MOM. They have to have even more evidence.

        They’ve been so quiet…I take that as a sign of confidence ….& diligence.

      • ay2z says:

        I’d rather have the bullet casing, the position of the victim, and the victim’s own statements to police than eye-witness John who made assumptions about who was calling for help based on who he thought was on top or not.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      I’m with you on that. If the plan was to find Trayvon’s heart, the method would be to use the shape of his chest pectorals and go to the bottom and off the center line. But, that fails with Trayvon’s being practically skin and bones. Wrapped in his garments his body would seem too featureless to find any guides.

      gz’s left hand could probably find the mid line easy enough, but without more muscle mass the correct vertical location would be almost impossible to find. Not that gz would have an easy time with Trayvon struggling trying to pull away.

      If they’re both standing and gz has located the mid line with his left hand while grabbing the garments (easy enough to do since you’d feel it with the thumb as you dragged across the chest area), then simply raising your arm to straight out shoulder height, automatically takes care of the vertical height needed.

      With so many variables it’s hard to see how he gets a straight in shot, with no angle, that passes through the heart, unless they’re both standing upright. Remember, the right arm is on the right side of the body, so the hand holding the gun, will always be at an angle to the victim’s heart, unless the victim stands to the gunman’s right.
      Kneeling that isn’t going to happen, especially not with gz having to pull downwards on the garments, meaning he’d have to be bending over when he fired the kill shot.

      Oh well, BDLR says he has a witness who saw the whole thing from start to finish. If the circumstantial evidence is enough to sink him, the hard evidence leaves him blowing in the wind. So much so for the good life George, last man out get the lights.

  26. racerrodig says:

    Only 9 days Fogen……I remember when someone would state 265 days. Then later 241……235…..229, and on and on.

    9 days Fogen……..by the way, nobody will be charmed by those Chipmunk Cheeks…….just sayin’

    • ay2z says:

      Especially, racerrodig, if he spits his nuts during trial.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Oh geeze… I swore, Racer, not to tell these kinds of jokes anymore, but you just had to leave an opening. Suffice it to say, somebody will be charmed by those chipmunk cheeks, only they won’t be in the courtroom. 😆

      • racerrodig says:

        For the record, there are about 8 or so of us who predicted the defense would ratchet up the BS a month or 2 before trial and then the defense would collapse big time. Gee……Hmmmmmm, I think it’s “…well, undisputed” that was a good call.

        Anyway, I’m referring to those Chipmunk Cheeks filled with nuts and the 3 or 4 chins he has. Ramrod Johnson can deal with the other stuff.

        I still say we send him cases and cases of Skittles, Hoodies and Arizona Iced Tea to his prison cell. Just a friendly “Hello” ya know, like the old days with the “Welcome Wagon” So when Ramrod takes a few bags of Skittles Fogen goes down this road…

        “….um warden, it’s Cheorge again, and um, there’s a lot of suspicious guys here.”

        Warden “Really….”

        Fogen “…um yeah can you sent a unit to…oh shit, I don’t know the exact address is…..cell block, uh, just go straight in and don’t make a left….can you have them call me when they get here”

        Warden “What are they doing…..”

        Fogen “They’re black males……not teeeens, and one has a tattoo, and he’s coming ti check me out.”

        Warden “Check YOU out, hell boy, can’t imagine why”

        Fogen “Well they keep stealing my bag of Skittles and stuff”

        Ramrod {“YOOOO Bubba….George just stole your favorite pillow……..cab= see ’em….sheeet yeah,,,,,he’s running……where else, the back entrance……

        Bubba “…follow em’ damn right I’ll go in he same diction he’s going, WTF does he thing got his ass in here in the 1st place….brother runs to get away and some lard-ass follows and shoots ’em…. Welcome to hell block Fogen….them roaches we saved fro the stew will go down good now, won;t they.

    • LLMPapa is just so damn good!

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      He was chased down by one of the worlds oldest punks! At 28 years of age George Z was nothing but a punk of the worst kind. He even out punked younger punks, because, at least they had the excuse of youth for being punks. Zimmerman, however, had grown and matured into a punk who was beneath the feet of the youngest punks to walk the face of the planet.

      Now he sits in the defendants chair with that “poor me” look on his face, while his unnecessarily dead victim lays in an early grave, put there by “Mr. Poor Me”. Believe me, I’d like to show him all the sympathy of a swift foot to his rear.

  27. crazy1946 says:

    Just 5 business days to go until the trial is scheduled to start… However if one were to consider that two of those days were scheduled for hearings, one should probably remember that the defense (and Fogen) only have three days to come up with a defense… Too bad they have squandered a year holding a trial in the media, and not actually preparing for a trial where he will be judged by his peers (it is questionable however, that he actually has peers that could serve legally on a jury)! It is yet to be seen that he will actually show up for the trial!

  28. Malisha says:

    I think the report on the voice expert’s analysis of the NEN call and the 911 call with the terrified scream show us a picture that fool O’Mara and his psycho-client could actually have USED to defend Fogen, but of course now it’s way too late (ha ha ha ha ha): NOT GUILTY by reason of insanity. Oh yes, it does not fit the legal definition of insanity for Fogen to have been so out of touch with reality that he felt himself entitled — nay REQUIRED — to rid the world of this “real suspicious guy” on 2/26/2012. The fact that he could still tell right from wrong is proven by the fact that in his written statement to the police he calls Trayvon Martin “the suspect” over and over. But his voice sounded like a “carnival barker” or a preacher! WOW! He got himself worked up into a true snit! He thought God was on his side! Consider the words:

    “Dear God … these assholes, they ALways get away … but not on ME!”

    Nuts? I would say “nuts” — but where is that in the DSM-V?

    Individuals with paranoid personality disorder first show signs of their problems during childhood. They exhibit: “poor peer relationships, social anxiety, underachievement in school [bingo], hypersensitivity [hey didn’t he end up estranged from his whole family?], peculiar thoughts and language [“THESE SHALL BE!”], and idiosyncratic fantasies.” It’s more common in males than females.

    As adults, these folks persistently bear grudges and are unwilling to forgive any insults or slights they “think they have received.” Minor slights [“yep; he’s comin’ to check me out”] arouse major hostility. They are “constantly vigilant to the harmful intentions of others” [“there’s a real suspicious guy”] [“he was just walking along, lookin’ about, leisurely”] and are “quick to counterattack and react with anger.” They may gather trivial and circumstantial “evidence” [“He didn’t look like he was checking his mail”] [“He has his hand in his waistband”] to bolster their mistaken beliefs in the wrongdoing [“He looks like he’s up to no good”] of others.

    Although they may appear to be objective, rational and unemotional, they more often display a labile range of affect with hostile, stubborn and sarcastic expressions predominating. Their combative and suspicious nature may elicit a hostile response in others, which then serves to confirm their original expectations.

    OOPS! Maybe O’Mara should have tried for the NCR early on. NOW he can’t back-track because he’s stuck his client’s big smirk on Hannity saying he was right and he was attacked and beaten within an inch of his life and frankly, that story is not really subject to a “do over” this late in the game.

    • Rachael says:

      You know, one of the things that really piss me off the most about GZ and his whole getting beaten within an inch of his life story is that every day on the news I see stories of women beaten, bar fights where people are beaten, muggings where people are beaten and all kinds of things and they all LOOK like they were beaten badly, with swollen faces, black and blue, black eyes, open areas with dried blood. I mean they – well, they actually LOOK like they were beaten.

      Now this is NOT to say that *IF* GZ was being beaten by a stranger (which I do NOT believe he was, but just for the sake of what I’m saying here, go along with me) he was not in fear for his life, what I AM saying is that the “beatdown” he talks about just flat out do NOT match his “injuries,” and no amount of stupid butterfly bandaids on his head make it look like it.

      So for me, that is where the real problem lies. Not in that he “claims” he was in fear of his life, but in the fact that his story sounds like a total LIE because his “injuries” do not match at all what he says happened.

      Of course the claiming fear for his life makes no sense to me either because who in their right mind calls the police about a suspicious person who looks like they are on drugs, looks like they are up to no good, is checking them out and has their hand in their waist? There is NO way I’d get out of my car if I’d seen someone like that, NO way!!! So the fact that he did shows me he was not afraid at all.

      He’s an idiot.

      • Soulcatcher says:

        Only an idiot would freely agree to be questioned without a lawyer present. I’m pretty sure that information was taught in the classes he was taking. I can’t imagine SR, Gladass, nor Osterman did not advise him to Lawyer up. Maybe they did, and he chose not to. Only an idot would think jail house recordings would not be recorded. Only an idot would agree to an interview on TV. Only an idiot would say he has no regrets, and it was Gods will.

        We have many inconsistant versons ot the story, statement he made to LE, statements coming from family and friends that he said, and his recreation the next morning on the video. He has minor injuries that are inconsistant with the near death story he tells, no injuries or DNA on Trayvon that would be consistant with to story he tells, the story he tells after shooting Trayon in not consistant with the first witness on the scene. We have a timeline that proves what he says ocurred, did not occur as stated. I believe one of the most damaging pieces of evidence is where he states a fight occurred, his recreation the next morning of where it occured, and where the body was found. He will have to take the stand to explain why the body was not found in the same area in which he states the fight occurred, and once he does, see ya. What remains under seal may be an added plus.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          soulcatcher says

          Only an idiot would freely agree to be questioned without a lawyer present. I’m pretty sure that information was taught in the classes he was taking. I can’t imagine SR, Gladass, nor Osterman did not advise him to Lawyer up.

          if i remember correctly, it has been established that osterman did tell his pal to go ahead and talk to the cops. yes, it was his statements that will convict him (i pray). idiotic move talking to the cops — yup, i guess the company he keeps is as dumb as he is. osterman sure as hell should have known better, based on his employment.

          i’m quoting a fave video on youtube here, but it’s important

          “anything you say can be held against you, and nothing you say can possibly help you.

          i’ve posted this before, but will do so again. i believe this to be critical information that from which we can all benefit. i review it myself on occasion. conclusion being that osterman and the defendant are both idiots.

          “Don’t Talk to the Police”

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Fogen wasn’t afraid because he knew darn well he was armed and he was going to do something about them “always getting away.”

        • racerrodig says:

          Yep…his minor injuries are a medical joke. Just today about noon as I was trying to install a new clutch pedal return spring on a gorgeous 66 Mustang, the vise grips let go and I got hit just above my left eye. I had at least 10 times the blood Fogen had on his face from it. Blood all down my shirt and the left sleeve.

          Can’t wait for the prosecution to show what real injuries look like. If I hadn’t started wiping so fast, I’d have had “..blood all in my eyes”

          Almost in diapers Fogen, Robbie……Right !!

          • Made a stud for clutch return out of a head stud out of a 383 mopar

            ’66 ‘Tang……MY PUSSY GETTER 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            “’66 ‘Tang……MY PUSSY GETTER :)”

            I’m telling Xena….and she’ll say “Go stand in the corner”

            That 69 Cyclone and my 65 Fastback Mustang, even being radical, bad to the bone street racers were certified babe magnets. Picture John Milner cool and undefeated as well, from American Graffiti, in a dark blue 69 fastback Cyclone….Cruzin’ sure ain’t what it used to be.

            I’ll post the pictures on Xena’s private chat…..just don’t laugh at the glasses I wore.

  29. I have yet to be swayed from the mind set that YES that is exactly what I heard on the tape…”f-cking coons” I was shocked about that before there was any mention of it. Then more shocked when it became in question. Then I realized that is indeed what I had heard.

    I have yet to be convinced that zimmermanass did anything other than scury across the top of that “T” and down the front side of the street trying to catch Trayvon at the back entrance asuming Trayvon would be heading out of the complex, and not seeing him there, coming up around the bottom of the “T” and forcing Trayvon back up it.

    DD says he was at or near his Father’s door. Nothing else would answer why Trayvon was lying dead where he was. There is no DNA on Trayvon. I will put my money on the bet that zimmerman had his gun out, drawn. Hence, the terrified screaming we all hear and know is Trayvon.

    Hoodies Up! Only 8 days left….

    • Rachael says:

      It is coons, clear as day. No way in this world it could be anything else.

    • Trained Observer says:

      BDLR doesn’t even need to mention any of the claimed variations on what he allegedly said — goons, coons, punks et al.

      Just play the damn tape. Jurors will know.

    • ic2fools says:

      Judy I whole heartily agree with every word of your post. I tried replacing the c word with cold and punks, it just don’t fit

      No way Trayvon double back, I believed he turned away from his fathers’ to get away from Fogen.

      What Fogen had done in the blanket of darkness will all come to light on his judgement day June 10, 2013….

      TEAM TRAYVON
      ALL HOODIES UP JUNE 10TH!!!!

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        As I note, gz would not have to go all the way south to Trayvon’s house to prevent him from getting inside. All he would have to do is get close enough to be seen by Trayvon. Trayvon has to think of his little brother and not put him at risk, by trying to enter the house while he’s still at risk himself.

        Remember Trayvon has no idea who this stalker is or what he’s capable of doing or why. If he opens the door and goes inside, or if he calls Chad to come open the door, there’s a good chance that gz will be on top of him, by time Chad opens the door, then they’ll both be in serious trouble. If gz sees which house Trayvon enters, there’s only a glass patio door that’s easily broken to enter. So the house, really offers little protection from gz, unless Trayvon’s parent and girl friend are home. Terrible thing is, if they were home, they might have been shot too. In which case gz would have gotten away scott free, since there would have been no one to raise the hue and cry.

        My guess is, since Trayvon didn’t know the area that well, going out the back gate never occurred to him. What did occur to him was that there were people home to the north and that maybe someone could be found there who would help. In danger you would run to a place where there were people and that’s exactly what Trayvon tried to do.

      • ic2fools says:

        @Lonnie Starr

        It make sense, that Fogen chased Trayvon that way and up the T. Heartbreaking us knowing Trayvon didn’t have a chance, and he knew if he had gone home neither would his baby brother.

        All of your hard work seeking the truth is greatly appreciated.

  30. ay2z says:

    So timely, SG2

    3 PM EST, the peace gathering for Trayvon at a Miami church

  31. Hey, what’s that sound? Everybody look – what’s going down?

    Protesting The Killing of Trayvon Martin.

  32. ay2z says:

    9 days

  33. hottopping says:

    4. If the stranger tries to grab them, then they need to be ready to run, kick and scream. This should include where a child should try to kick. Also biting and poking the eyes. I know this sounds harsh, however a child needs to practice what to do. This is the time for you to protect them. 5. Do not drill fear into them, drill knowledge and action.

    • ay2z says:

      That, according to SYG inFlorida, would mean the stranger can shoot to kill and claim self defense.

      • ay2z says:

        (even diff avatar, that’s my post– I see the problem)

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        AND that is the basic ILLOGIC of the SYG (immunity) laws!

        What these new laws are saying is, not that you can kill unarmed people for no reason and get away with it. That is why they continue to stand, because they’re not being attacked for the real reason they’re so dangerous.

        The real reason they are so dangerous is, not because the killer does not have to retreat, but because, in 9 out of 10 cases, he’s going to be killing the only witness against him/her self.

        That is what makes these laws so dangerous because they are: “KILL OR FACE TRIAL” LAWS! It’s a crime to pull a gun on an unarmed person, so you’re facing a felony charge and years in prison. But, if you pull the trigger and kill for sure, then there’s no one to say that you weren’t facing great bodily injury or death yourself. Presto, you’re free! So this law makes the choice clear, either shoot and kill or face trial.

  34. evokid7 says:

    I am lying back, reading the various comments. A thought popped into my mind; what if MOM, and company are ringing the cash bell once last time before trail. With a plan to either “quit” before trail or, have Fogen, fire them claiming some bogus s*** and delay the trail to buy him a lil more time. It’s like when RZJR sits close to the family and their attorneys, to rub it in knowing he looks like his sorry ass brother, probably wears loud cologne and such just to f*** with them mentally. I think FOGEN’s team has informed him in such terms; “Look you fat cookie eaten f*** we know you are guilty and so do you, let’s just ride this train until the wheels pop off and get all we can get”
    And also I believe Robert Zimmerman molested his brother and the family found out in a shocking way and that explains the absent relations. so now Robbie the lair, speaks out for him because of ego but also as a way to control and emotionally and psychologically molest his brother and the family. I believe that Is something I would do if I did care and would not be willing to face the real truth about my decisions.

    • evokid7 says:

      My bad! I meant to, type the word trial.

      • Rachael says:

        You probably meant to type liar too – but hey, love your pic! Is that your dog? Beautiful.

      • evokid7 says:

        No somebody left him around my lake, so I took him in and found him a good home after tying to find his owners. I called him HD I just like the picture, I had 7 inside dogs at one time, now I just have one little whining dog.

    • Dan Q. Smith says:

      R. Molest G? Do you have any evidence or are you going on the stereotype that gay men are child molesters? Real evidence or this doesn’t work for me.

      • Trained Observer says:

        All too many people equate gay men (sometimes lesbians, too) with being pedophiles. That’s a croc, but homophobics love to buy into and spread such nonsense.

        Joonyar is a piece of work to be sure, but I don’t think any evidence has surfaced on him molesting Fogen or anybody else.

        It’s Fogen himself who has been accused by his female cousin of molesting her for years on end during their childhoods. People need to, pardon the pun, get that straight.

        • “All too many people equate gay men (sometimes lesbians, too) with being pedophiles.”

          I was one of those people….after having been molested in a children’s home as a kid……..

          By my mid 30’s I understood the difference….

      • EdgySF says:

        Xoxo mountainman. Sorry you suffered like that. You did not deserve it.

      • Trained Observer says:

        MMPat — Regret you suffered that childhood experience in what already must have been a difficult situation. I also started life in a children’s home … fortunately was adopted early on by caring parents. Through an odd sequence of events, I recently learned my first crib/playmate died a couple of months ago out west. Too young for my tastes, given that we were born with days of each other. His death preceded by weeks that of his bio mother, 92, who had kept him. Mine didn’t keep me. Yet each of us (and perhaps you’d include yourself as well) ended up with better chances at enjoying life than Fogen ever gave Trayvon Martin.

        • “PERHAPS”?

          Without a doubt………….Trayvon never had a chance against fogen…….All his dreams taken from him in the time it takes to take a breath…

          I’ve said it before……I would believe Trayvon would have accomplished a lot more by the age of 28 than fogen would have in his entire life….

      • Rachael says:

        Molestation is often similar to abuse in that it can be a cyclical thing. It is possible then that GZ was molested and he was continuing the cycle.

      • Rachael says:

        And I am deeply sorry to all of you who ever suffered any abuse. It sux.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        dan q. smith says

        R. Molest G? Do you have any evidence or are you going on the stereotype that gay men are child molesters? Real evidence or this doesn’t work for me.

        agreed.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        If it’s true that Fogen molested his cousin, it’s highly likely he was molested himself as a child. The mystery is who . . .

        One of my children was in fact molested by an older gay half-sibling when he was a toddler and the sibling was a young teenager. It may be a stereotype, but it does also happen. And I’m not homophobic, by the way.

    • pat deadder says:

      evoked Just because a person is gay doesn’t mean they molest people but I do believe rzjr hates his brother.I suspect they could have been molested by a priest but then that is jumping to conclusions as well.There is something radically wrong with that whole family but I guess we will never know what it is.No matter what it is he needs to be held accountable for once in his life.If they are such a close family why don’t they all hunker down together to save money.If this blog is here after this trial is over I will be reading.If my ship ever comes in I would love to ensure this informative blog is here I do what I can but alas if my ship ever came in I’ll probably be at the airport.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        The hatred between the Z brothers has been documented in jail calls.
        Just because a person is gay doesn’t mean they molest.. but molesting is not the exclusive domain of heteros either. We don’t know anything about RZJr and GZ, but if GZ was molesting at an early age, I think he must’ve learned it.

      • cielo62 says:

        Not all molestation is learned behavior. I believe gz started at a young age because he was born without a conscience at all. He was BORN a sociopath. Probably saw porn movies at home, since the boys weren’t allowed outside to play with the neighborhood kids. gz was born with no empathy, compassion or even how to fake it. Asperger’s? I don’t know. But MANY of those folks learn how to behave. gz never did.

  35. ay2z says:

    Nothing Else.

  36. kllypyn says:

    TRAYVON BENJAMIN MARTIN Born 2-05-1995 parents SYBRINA FULTON TRACY MARTIN.Brother JAHVARIS FULTON. He wa not known for picking fights,he would defend himself if he had to. occasionally he would do dumb things which he would get in trouble for.like most teens.HE HAD NO PROPENSITY FOR VIOLENCE. He smoked weed some times hardly a big deal more tha half the teens in this country smoke weed sometimes.

    Some time in mid to late february he got caught with an empty baggie which might have had weed in it at one time. Or maybe he had just finished a sandwich we will never know. Anyway he was suspended for 10 days. Sybrina sent him to his fathers while he serves his suspension. She did not want him home alone while she was at work.

    Contrary to trayvon’s supposed tweets he was not kicked out of her house he was still living with her at the time he went to sanford with his father. I don’t care if he hid his weed before going to sanford. He is not the first teenager to hide his stash from his parents.(It’s no ones business who he was living with anyway.) I read somewhere i don’t remember where he was never alone during the week prior to his death he was always with an adult.

    February 26 2012 a little after 6pm he went to 7-11 after paying for his stuff he left( i dont care if he knew the so called 3 stooges or not if he did,so what and not relevant. At some point Trayvon noticed a “creepy” guy was watching him.He begins walking home again the creepy guy is following him in a car. he tells his girlfriend that he’s now being followed.She tells him to run he doesn’t at first.Finally trayvon’s fear gets the best of him and he runs.

    The creepy guy gets out of his truck to pursue. he eventually stops running nad tells the dispatcher he will meet the police at the mail boxes. suddenly he changes his mind and says Call me and i’ll tell you where im at.Obviously he was looking for trayvon. Trayvon who had stopped running because he had lost the “creepy guy”. He had no clue he had got out of his truck to pursue.(Trayvon specifically ran to the dog path because a car couldn’t go there.)

    Trayvon sees the “creepy guy” again. He tells his girlfriend he’s coming closer. She tells him to run. Hr doen’t want to run anymore. she said she could tell he was tired because he was breathing hard. As the “creepy guy appraoches His girlfriend again tells him to run. He says he’s not gonna run. Finally the creepy guy gets close enough where Trayvon asks”What are you following me for?”A legitimate question that any one of us would have asked.The creepy guy asks what are you doing around here?THE CREEPY GUY NEVER IDENTIFIED HIMSELF OR TOLD TRAYVON THE POLICE WERE ON THE WAY.

    Dd heard the start of the confrontation. The creepyn guy grabbed or tackled Trayvon DD heard trayvon yell get off twice the call ended abruptly.Seconds later a flurry of 911 cals are recieved. One call in particular is telling because you hear the last 46 seconds of trayvon’s life as he desperately tries to escape from a crazy man with a gun.

    The creepy guy knows he was never screaming for his life. the creepy guy knows trayvon never made any effort at all to hit him. “I’M BEGGING YOU!!” “GET OOOFF!!” (I ALSO BELIEV HE SAID DON’T SHOOT BUT I’M NOT SURE.) HELP!! HELP!! HELLP!! hELP ME!! I DON’T KNOW EM!!? I DONT KNOW I DON’T KNOW. NOOO!!!(VOICE CRACKS DON’T!!! NOO!!!!!!!(HORRIFIC SHRIEK) HELP!!! OR STOP!!!.

    We also hear the instant of Trayvon’s death.At that point he was dead or dying and was not able to speak. THERE WAS NONE OF THAT BULLCRAP ABOUT TRAYVON SAYING OK YOU GOT ME OR YOU GOTI IT AFTER HE WAS SHOT.

    THE EVIDENCE WHICH HIS SUPPORTERS DON’T GIVE A CRAP ABOUT SHOWS HE WAS HOLDING THE FRONT OF TRAYVON SHIRTS WITH HIS LEFT HAND WHILE AIMING HIS GUN AT TRAYVON’S CHEST WITH HIS RIGHT WHICH IS WHY HE HAD TO BE CAREFUL NOT TO HOT HIS OWN HAND.PREVENTING HIS ESCAPE. THAT IS THE CAUSE OF THE DESPERATION IN TRAYVON’S SCREAMS. He knew he was about to die during those last 15 seconds you could hear it in his voice.

    The creepy guy knows he killed trayvon out of rage,a rage brought on by his bigotry.Bigotry which he learned from his parents.He continues to try to justify his actions that night.

    Even now as his trial approaches he and his lawyers and his family lie about what happened that night. Even now as Trayvon lays in his crypt never to walk the earth again,the Zimmerpukes continue to lie and attack Trayvon’s family. Even now as Trayvon’s family and friends continue to grieve,the zimmerpukes try to use every little mistake he made to justify his death including calling him a thug which he was not.

    Some of them are nothing more tha thugs themselves. Some have had pending felonies against them.Trayvon died without ever knowing who the creepy guy was,or what he wanted. he never knew the police were on their way.

    The creepy guy was the aggressor not Trayvon. If he wants to claim self defense he’s going to have to take the stand,and he’s gonna have a lot of explaining to do

  37. elcymoo says:

    George Zimmerman Spent His Trayvon Kickstarter, So His Lawyers Want You to Pay Them

    By Alexander Abad-Santos | The Atlantic Wire – Wed, May 29, 2013

    http://news.yahoo.com/george-zimmerman-spent-trayvon-kickstarter-lawyers-want-pay-202554548.html

    • racerrodig says:

      “…In the days ahead, we need to spend thousands of dollars on transcripts of crucial depositions. We need to pay experts and provide them accommodations during the time they may be needed at trial,…”

      Uhhhhhh Note to Moron O’ Mara : It’s a little late for this, don’t ya think. Maybe it’s just me, so somebody help me out, but isn’t this supposed to have been done a year ago ??

      He needs at least 75K for his client to have “…a fighting chance..”

      Note to O’ Mara : I don’t think you’ll be able to bribe all the jurors with 75K, because that’s the only chance.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        racer says

        Note to O’ Mara : I don’t think you’ll be able to bribe all the jurors with 75K, because that’s the only chance.

        hahahahahahahahahaha!!!

        • racerrodig says:

          just sayin’ 9 long days and just now they think “…hey, call some expert witnesses and reserve some rooms at “Motel 6″ tell ’em to leave the light on, we’ll be burning it well past midnight. Maybe they can all share a room”

          Note to O’ Mara : Just friendly reminder…..ONLY 9 days in 1 minute.

      • Jun says:

        What Omara truly means is

        “I want 75K to defend this idiot and continue my smear campaign of a murdered dead kid that this asshole killed because I have no morals”

        • racerrodig says:

          Sometimes I fail to “read between the lines” but experts….what experts.

          I just found a picture of his audio expert trying to ascertain who just yelled I’m beeeegggging you”

          • So what do you have against dogs to use one in such a way?

            Can’t think of too many dogs that don’t have more sense than fogen or mom……

          • racerrodig says:

            I have nothing against dogs in any way. I’m just saying this is the only type of expert he’ll be able to find……

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Clerk: So you’re the defense audio expert?

            A: Yes!

            Clerk: Take off your hat!

            A: Okay!

            Clerk: Raise your right hand!

            A: Sure!

            Clerk: Put your left hand on the Bible!

            A: There!

            Clerk: (exasperated) TAKE OFF YOUR HAT!!!
            …………..

          • racerrodig says:

            Ohhhhh like this..

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            That is the only expert that would risk dealing with the scheme team. Most especially after seeing the fee non payment debacle, the attempt to obtain a court ordered fee cram down, the excoriation of his own expert witness, in the effort to have his fees reduced. MOM shows himself to be an inconsiderate jerk in dealing with people who provide him with their services. If he does get an expert it will be because he’s the experts last hope. Not a good thing to have to consider when you’re facing 2nd degree murder charges.

          • ic2fools says:

            Lol, lollollol…..

      • O’Mara has admitted that he has taken many depositions and not paid for the transcripts.

        The depositions will be of little use without the transcripts.

        Yet more evidence of irresponsible financial decisions.

        • racerrodig says:

          I forgot about that !! I still marvel that he keeps saying to the media “George Zimmerman vs Trayvon Martin”

          I believe there is no doubt he’s trying to make it seem like small potatoes as “The State of FL. vs George Zippyhead” looks like Goliath vs David, and they’re picking on my client.

          His comments to Rev. Sharpton the other day that the states experts NEVER said Trayvon was screaming was, well….a real scream. What a sense of humor, that silly man !!

      • Rachael says:

        So Professor, what is he trying to do? Is he going to try to blame his poor money management on the fact that he was not given more time and say that is reason for an appeal? I don’t see how he could possibly do that, but other than that, I’m not understanding what he is doing, except burying himself.

      • Hereslookingatyou says:

        I actually thought that also Racerd, aren’t all the expert list already to have been exchanged at this point? I get , now you can depose say some of the prosecution experts but this give me money or doughboy will not have a fighting chance is smoke and mirrors , they either have a defense or they don’t.
        I myself am looking forward to doughboy taking the stand and going through all the talk Trayvon did right after that bullet had just shredded his heart…

        • racerrodig says:

          I know most states have scheduling orders where evidence, depositions and such must be completed and turned over to the opposing counsel. It’s a week to go and Moron O hasn’t even retained 1 expert on record ?? He has depositions to take still. They take several days to be transcribed.

          He’s done….

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Foggen says he kept his gun in his hand until Ofc. Smith arrived, then he holstered. Ofc. Smith arrived some 3 minutes after the gunshot? Jon says that gz had walked all the way down to the T, so he could easily have dropped the key chain flashlight there himself.
          After all, he did need whatever evidence he could fashion to bolster his story.

          I think the plan was for him to chase Trayvon all the way back to the T, but Trayvon wouldn’t cooperate and stopped near a house where he saw a light burning, in hope that someone might come out and help him. While Foggen panicked that he might lose either his nerve or his prey, screwed up the plan and did his dirty deed right there. Leaving witness 11 with an unsupportable story about a group of men running east and turning the corner while yelling and making a racket.
          And witness 6 was left holding the bag, with a story of MMA fighting that didn’t hold enough water, such that he had to retract it.

          A big healthy, strapping adult, angry and combat ready, does not need any help with a scrawny underweight teen. Most especially not if that adult also carries a firearm. Gun owners simply do not ever forget their weapons when they are in a strange dark environment. But, foggen was so superior to his prey that he was not even struck in defense, since Trayvon would know by the force in the hand holding him by his clothes that it would be useless for him to fight.

          Once gz grew tired of torturing the kid, he finally pulled out his weapon and said “you’re gonna die tonight” and fired. Creating a huge ruckus, giving him a reason to leave his house before eviction, to hide his truck and stay at MO’s place where there was food and a few dollars around for gas.

    • KA says:

      The comments on these articles are so depressing. Half of the comments I read and disgusting displays of direct racism…shameful!

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Thanks, Elcymoo.

    • Malisha says:

      “Please help a guy get away with murder. Please. C’Mon, you know YOU’d like to get away with murder. You can do it vicariously by sending money to …”

      • “And we’ll send you a vial of miracle spring water for each donation”

        peter poppov’s nephew is a friend of mine…….thankfully he thinks his uncle’s an asshole……

      • parrot says:

        “Please help a guy get away with murder. Please. C’Mon, you know YOU’d like to get away with murder. You can do it vicariously by sending money to …”

        Yes, Malisha, incisive, sardonic comment and absolutely true.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        The actual message reads more like: “Com’on white people, a white guy just murdered a black guy and we know how you feel about that, so send in those dollars, this is an “invisible empire” deal!”

    • cielo62 says:

      That was a fun article! Once again I am amazed (though I shouldn’t be) at the vast legal ignorance displayed in the comments section. I was gratified to see fewer gz supporters there.

  38. acemayo says:

    “George maintains it was absolutely self-defense. Normally, criminal defense attorneys don’t want to put their client on the stand, but in this case, Mark O’Mara (George’s attorney) feels so strongly in the evidence, and in his innocence, he would be inclined to allow him to testify.

    “The decision to put George on the stand won’t come until the prosecution rests their case,” the source close to the case added.

    So what MOM is lets put GM on the stand tell what in way he
    can’t be cross examne. Is taht possible

    • Girlp says:

      If Georgie boy takes the stand he will be cross examined he can’t get out of that.

      • racerrodig says:

        Ladies anddddddd Gentleman…..now, under the big top, the show you’ve all been waiting for……to big for any average Circus….

        …it’s FogenPhoole and his lying band of Phooles……watch them run around in circles until they’re dizzy,,,,step right this way…watch them trip and fall on words alone….yes sir……step right up….watch in amazement as Robbie the racist declares there is no Justice……

        P. T. Barnum is up there saying…..damn, I was born 175 years too early.

    • Jun says:

      You mean like how he maintained he was broke at the first bond hearing and continues to claim to be broke yet has money in his blood money fund? Kind of like that?

      • aussie says:

        Jun, HE is broke. The fund has money. HE is broke as he only has, physically on him,. the $1.32 change from his last pizza order (I don’t see him as a big tipper). In fact MOM might have tried to keep him on a tighter leash — the security guys said they kept having to buy stuff for him from their own money and wait to be reimbursed, so perhaps GZ wasn’t being given any money in his hand. That counts as broke, doesn’t it?

    • ay2z says:

      He already tried to do that, remember April 20 2012? Bernie got to cross-examine him after his self-serving presentation to the media by using a fake apology to ‘the parents’ when he really said he was going to address ‘the court’. (the ‘court’ is the judge, not the media, but he got away with it)

  39. Brandi, missouri says:

    I wonder if anyone has counted how many versions gz has given, then break down what part he changed the most.

    • racerrodig says:

      That’s a problem because of his many versions there are “subversion’s” I believe there are 6 “Primary” versions yet every one has different additions / subtractions that make his story perverted, subverted, and only God knows what else….but his Zidiot Nation say he’s just misunderstood…..just like Hitler.

      • hotheadpaisen says:

        I agree completely and I think it’s important also not just to know what your lies, but to ask ‘why this particular lie about this particular issue’? like the way he vacillates about his phone. First he stated that it was in his hand the whole time, and then he didn’t remember if it was in his hand, and then he did remember but he couldn’t reach it, and then he had no fucking idea where it was… I think that the lies about his phone being in his hand is directly related to his absurd lie about forgetting the whole time that he had a gun?Why on earth would someone portraying responsible gun ownership say He ‘forgot he had a gun’?? Well he had to lie, because it was not his phone but the gun was in his hand the whole time. He learned through Osterman and through his concealed carry class that it is illegal to brandish or show anyone a gun, so he was in a panic to express that he did not have a gun in his hand (Even though he did ) so without thinking it through, He just blurted out that most ridiculous of all his statements.

        • racerrodig says:

          You got it. During one of the interviews, after a long bs’ing about which pocket / hand his phone was in, he demonstrates a pistol draw from the ass holster. Huhhhhh ? Hey, quick draw, another Freudian slip.

          I love the reenactment, which is actually a “dress rehearsal” since most of it never happened, when he says he was just walking along “crossing the “T” and didn’t see anyone looking down the long leg of the “T”……when all of the sudden, out from BEHIND THE BUSHES” pops Black Dynamite Slim, and he punched me in the nose so “I fell down” Uhhhhh “fell”

          Note to FogenPhoole : a fall (past tense fell) is the direct action of an accident or inadvertent event i.e. “I fell down the stairs” That wrench fell on the floor” “The baby took his first steps yesterday, then he fell down”

          “I punched that guy and knocked him down” “Mike Tyson used one shot and the other guy went down”…..he didn’t fall….he was knocked down.

          And Serino indicates where he would have gone down and then the swatting of flies started.

        • X2….gun drawn while on the hunt

          • racerrodig says:

            Yep, had to be…..his ass was pinned to the ground….allegedly pinned. I still say it would have been a real hoot had he blown his left hand off.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          hotheadpaisen says

          so without thinking it through, He just blurted out that most ridiculous of all his statements.

          his blurts remind me almost of those i know with tourrettes, really. the defendant just unconsciously blurts out that which would be most disadvantageous to himself. don’t get me wrong, i’m glad that he did. his statements to both NEN and investigators are what nails his ass, but what a dumb ass!

      • Rachael says:

        hotheadpaisen – you’ve got it!!!

      • Jun says:

        My count is 3245 but hey Asians are good at math is the stereotype and as you know, the Zidiots like stereotypes

      • Soulcatcher says:

        Hey he’s the one telling the stories. I wouldn’t say he is misunderstood, I understand everything he says, I’d say he’s just a liar.

        oh shit he’s running, no he’s not running, skipping.walking away quickly. I saw him walk thru and make a right, I don’t know. Do you have any regrets, do you regret following him? NO

        Are you following him? Yes. I wasn’t following him, I was going in the same direction.

        You got a problem homie. You got a problem. Yo you got a problem

        just a start

        • racerrodig says:

          Oh, I know he’s a liar….it’s the Zidiot Nation who say he’s misunderstood.

          I’m Fogen, do you understand me now
          Sometimes I’m just a little bad
          But don’t you know that no one alive
          Can always be an angel
          When things go wrong I seem to be bad
          But I’m just a soul whose intentions aren’t good
          Oh Lord, please don’t let me be misunderstood

          I’m Fogen, sometimes I’m so carefree
          With a hate that’s hard to hide
          And sometimes it seems that all I have is a story
          Then you’re bound to see my other side
          But I’m just a soul whose intentions aren’t good
          Oh Lord, please don’t let me be misunderstood

          If I seem edgy I want you to know
          That I always mean to take it out on you
          Life has it’s problems and I have my share
          And that’s one thing I never meant to do
          Oh, Oh baby don’t you know I’m human
          Have thoughts like any other one
          But I find myself never regretting
          Some foolish thing some little simple thing I’ve done

          And I’m just a soul whose intentions aren’t good
          Oh Lord, please don’t let me be misunderstood
          Yes, I’m just a soul whose intentions aren’t good
          Oh Lord, please don’t let me be misunderstood
          Yes, I’m just a soul whose intentions aren’t good
          Oh Lord, please don’t let me be misunderstood

      • He isn’t going to get anywhere claiming he does not understand English.

    • Lynn says:

      @Brandi, missouri

      If you haven’t seen this video, it is worth the 15 minutes. It tells of his lies.

      • parrot says:

        Thanks for posting this, Tzar. I couldn’t get to it.

      • ay2z says:

        parrot, the photos are ‘png’ not ‘jpg’. The link works, maybe your computer needs to know how to handle a png file so it will open it?

      • parrot says:

        Thanks, ay2z.

        I am able to open Tzar’s link here. It was a previous link that I wasn’t able to open.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        So Tchoupi has Trayvon at ~45 feet from the north walk to the T.

        Good to know. I just picked up from other posters working the case on the bcc:list.com we’ve all gotten pretty used to using 40.5 feet.
        thanks Tzar.

  40. colin black says:

    Give me shoe fly an I dont care
    Give me shoe fly an I dont care
    Give me shoe fly an I dont care

    Cos pigs wont fly an the fat ones scared.

  41. Girlp says:

    @fauxmccoy, pci seems to have switched sides as well but waffles sometimes, they seem to want to blame Trayvon for some things but basically believes that GZ comitted manslaughter.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      @girlp

      interesting about both of them though. they were both complete jerks for a long time. it takes courage to publicly change your mind in such a way, i will give them both credit for that.

      • Girlp says:

        pci I think may be authentic not so sure about shoo fly(still manic as ever) but if he had the guts to actually read the evidence and see the real deal good for him I’m hoping he’s sincere.

  42. Girlp says:

    @Fauxmcoy no it’s shoo fly

    • hotheadpaisen says:

      I could be wrong, but I don’t think shoo fly changed. I think the current shoo fly is a new profile of an old TM supporter. Keep in mind there has been a shoofly, shoo fly, sh00fly, shoo flie, and probably others. My list of known socks topped out over 300.

      • ic2fools says:

        Hotheadpisen! Hey there 🙂

        I remember that one all too well, collectively ‘Sybillll”. Ya’ll will like it here. Hope to see ya’ll more.

      • ic2fools says:

        Please excuse the mispelling. Time I lay it back down for some sleep….

      • Girlp says:

        True I forgot about the many shoo fly’s there.

      • lady2soothe says:

        HHP, I agree the new Shoo Fly is an old J4TM Supporter, s/he has too positive much info. to be a converted Zimbot. You’ve seen/commented on my list and know I have hundreds of socks listed. Maybe it’s about time I re-publish (w/out Gasperilla) 🙂

      • ic2fools says:

        Hey Lady2Soothe! Seeing more of my pals, its’ a good thing.

  43. Lito says:

    Professor leatherman I’m far from perfect or passing the bar. Ima blue collar contractor. I’ve learned so much from your blogs that I feel like I’m back in college. U deserve every cent you get and I will donate for a good cause like this. Trayvon was an average teen. I was WAY worse than him at 17 so are many others. You, malisha, crane, xena,racer, Lonny, and many others are extremely smart people. I hope that fat pig fries for making himself the villain trying to be the hero God bless u all. #J4TM!!

  44. Malisha says:

    “So the fuckin’ punk said what’s yur problem homie — or not homie — I dunno — and he punched me and I fell right down the first time he hit me but not there, there, and [tiger paw tiger paw step step tiger paw step step wiggle] and then he mounted me [oooooooh] and he was smashing my head on the sidewalk so I shimmied and he was punching me in the face and I was butter in his hands I said do what you will with me — uh — no, I mean, I was yelling yelp yelp yelp — or, ora, orally — help me help me — and he tried to smother me because he saw that I wasn’t dead yet and he assured me I was going to die that night and I said no, don’t call the police, I already called them but I can’t find my cell phone because I put it in the wrong pocket — uh — so I had blood in my eyes — and then he put one hand on my mouth and another hand on my nose — uh — and then I said, mmmmmph mmmmmph mmmmmmmph and he said, ‘Listen here you afro-Peruvian mentor you, don’t you mmmph at me, learn English, how long you been in this country, man?’ and I feel like he saw my gun — I mean, I feel like he saw THE gun — and then it was all God’s plan, amen.”

    And I hardly know what music it is best to set it to unless it be the madman’s song in Verdi’s Rigoletto.

    • Rachael says:

      ‘Listen here you afro-Peruvian mentor you,

      roflmao!!!!

    • mgs710 says:

      You’ve got Fogen pegged.

    • racerrodig says:

      Picture this in court…….Fogen slithers into the box.

      BDLR (part way through cross) “…..now then, you stated you had all this blood in your eyes (plays interview segment) is that correct?”

      Fogen “……um yes, see he was pummeling me and beating my head on the sidewalk and just like my brother said I was almost…
      (blah, blah, boring typical Fogen lies for 15 minutes) …..then like my dad said I was (more boring blah) and then I almost died”

      BDLR “Really, that’s quite a tale, now show the court which of these evidence pictures shows any blood in your eyes”

      Fogen “…..I almost had to wear diapers for the rest of my life, and..”

      • KittySP says:

        lets not forget w11 statement that she hardly recognized him immediately following…not sure what it was she saw so unrecognizable…he only had that small smattering of blood pooling below his nose. Again, if we are to believe GZ, I’d expect to see him looking more like Will Smith’s character in the movie Hitch, while having allergic reaction to food he’d eaten.

  45. BillT says:

    the defense has no experts because any rational person that looks at the evidence CANT defend fogen in any way…….ALL of the physical, recorded, written, evidence shows GUILT

  46. Girlp says:

    @racerrodig, on HP there is a poster who claims to have come over to Trayvons side after reading the released evidence (actually 2 have come over) this one person in particular is saying that ljp is GZ. I don’t know that this can be trusted because I don’t have a way to verify but this was one of the worst and they assisted with most of the spamming .

    • fauxmccoy says:

      girlp –

      is one that changed his mind that pciorlando guy with the obnoxious orangutan avatar? i saw a post the other day that made me think he had changed his mind, but he never responded.

      • dianetrotter says:

        If it is improved that ljp is gz can anything be done about that? If the post are from him and are unpenitent, that shows something about his character and lack of remorse.

        • racerrodig says:

          LJP is Papa Z. Fogen used about 100 other names. His IP Address was pulled by investigators and even telling him to stop does not work…pure arrogance. Here’s a quick sideline proof. Whenever Papa Z is in court…….LJP is off the air. LJP is on just about 24/7 other than when there is a court hearing.

      • racerrodig says:

        pcorlandosales….Monkey Brain, that’s what I call him. He’s pretty much a moron. I haven’t seen anything there for a few weeks.

      • kat says:

        Yes, pci is the one. He claimed lawyer friend convinced him.

      • Nef05 says:

        @Faux – yes, the two are PCI and Sh00Fly. I didn’t believe them, but the seem to be in earnest and have publicly repudiated their previous positions. I guess we’ll see as the trial commences.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          nef says

          @Faux – yes, the two are PCI and Sh00Fly. I didn’t believe them, but the seem to be in earnest and have publicly repudiated their previous positions. I guess we’ll see as the trial commences.

          all i can say is that i’m impressed that they would publicly voice their change of heart, even if they are willing to consider manslaughter as the appropriate charge. that is a dramatic change. perhaps all that posting of fact we did there made a difference.

      • lady2soothe says:

        I don’t have any of his original HORRIBLE and NASTY statements about Trayvon however some of the new and supposedly improved PCI statements are below. Please see paragraph 3.

        Tues. 4-9-13
        pciorlandosales… I understand where your coming from, however … by the HOA settlement stating that they have no culpability that too states that they are not willing to throw Zimmerman under the bus. If they are defending their situation they are defending him. If there is a trial and he is acquitted, which is not a far reaching circumstance. You could very well be right about a suit being filed. I have my personal doubts as to wither they would be successful. Witness #6 placed their son on top of Zimmerman when he tells him to get off and stop or he is calling the police. Martin refused, this makes him the aggressor at that point in time. By continuing with what he was doing he left few choices as to how this would end.

        ME @ pciorlandosales… May 21, 2012. Witness #6’s legal statement retracting his original statement.
        “Um, but as to who was yelling, you know, I can’t make that call. At first I thought it was the person on the ground, just because, you know, me thinking rationally, if someone was on top, the person on the bottom would just be yelling, but you know, that’s just an ASSUMPTION. I truly can’t tell who, you know, after I thought ab-, you know, after I’m thinkin’ about it, who was yelling help just because it was so dark out on that sidewalk.”

        ME @ pciorlandosales… This is you, right?
        About P C I Security Inc
        Harnessing 65 years of collective experience in military, police protection, intelligence, and anti-terrorism, the founders of PCI are changing the way today’s security is performed.
        No company takes security-and the reassurance it offers our customers-as serious as PCI. Discover the difference that an experienced security force can have on your property and your bottom line. Call us today for a free consultation.
        PCI isn’t just your security company. We are your partner-as concerned with the success of your investment as you are. We start by making ourselves accessible 24 hours a day through our communications command center, where actual PCI employees provide on-the-spot answers to any of your questions or concerns. Our clients also enjoy the benefit of being able to access senior management 24 hours a day if the need arises.

        Bonez1….. from the looks of it,PCI has no clue how to provide secure neighborhood with its IN-experience if he believes everything fogen has done is legal and eithical and safe for the community….

        GoneLongGone…. If it’s him, I wouldn’t use his company based upon his postings here.

        GoneLongGone…. He got caught posting the witness’ original statement trying to pawn it off as the retraction.

    • Rachael says:

      I thought LJP was supposedly GZ’s daddy – but when I got into it with “him,” he insisted he was a she.

      • Girlp says:

        Hah!, LJP told me he was a man I call him/her it sometimes Sybil because of all the socks it’s has there.

      • looneydoone says:

        gz’s “rock” (little sis Grace C) ???
        Actually, with 25k comments published during the past 12 months by LJP, and half again that many removed for TOS violations, I suspect more than one person is posting under that screen name/account…either the whole fam damnily, or one seriously crazed supporter exhibiting symptoms of a lengthy manic phase

        • fauxmccoy says:

          looney says

          one seriously crazed supporter exhibiting symptoms of a lengthy manic phase

          joker!
          joker!
          JOKER!!

          i’ll take ‘manic phases’ for $100, jack ….

      • racerrodig says:

        It’s Papi….I even call him that and he won’t deny it, he just makes like it was never said. I tell him flat out “..your son is going to prison” and I’ve never had a reply to the effect it’s not my son, what are you talking about, you got the wrong guy….nothing. Of course having someone in the investigation business run the IP address and such helps.

        He’s an arrogant pos.

      • Rachael says:

        LOL – I kept calling him daddy-o

    • racerrodig says:

      I wouldn’t trust any of those Zidiots. LJP is Papa Z and he’s almost admitted it a few times. I have my connections who verified it.

      • Girlp says:

        Explains a lot, he posted W9 info on HP then deleted it, also said it was legal to dox it just depends on how you use the information. I don’t know if HP still has the deleted post because I don’t know how often they back up the post and he deleted the name and other info he posted about W9 in less than an hour (Ithink). He also has or had some people working for him we caught darkskies posting to a “co-worker” and one sock admitted they took direction from ljp. The Zimmerman family they are a diabolical bunch, with a sense of entitlement…disgusting

      • lady2soothe says:

        Tues. 3-12-13

        darkskiesrbest
        312 Fans
        Become a fan
        Unfan
        5 hours ago (11:24 PM)
        Sorry for the auto dig.
        Had a coworker write a response to another group that we had to have her re-read 4 times before she saw it.
        She meant to say – “In order to help you assess…” – but instead wrote “In order to help you asses…”
        When lines split the words our minds fill in the blanks was the point

    • ic2fools says:

      Hiya Girlp! Longtime, good to see you here.

      Just couldn’t take reading the sickening racist hatred over there. I do miss many of ya’ll.

      • GirlP says:

        Nothing’s changed but I’m taking a small break until the trial starts, since O’Mara started his smears LJP has been crowing I don’t answer him often because I am a true Aries and they’d shutdown my account if I said exactly what I wanted to say maturity has taught me a lot, I would not mince word with Robert Sr. at all. BTW I have broke some serious rules when it comes to them but they never posted.

  47. colin black says:

    I M O Prosecution can enter reconstruction tape as exhibit A

    The immpossable tale of a lie wrapped with in a riddle layered with impossabilites time travel.
    An physic gravity defying punches an stumbleing shrinking 5ft 9 kID Hideing behind two foot hedges that then morph into.
    Hideing in the Dark an thats no fare if your a Darkie.
    An foggagges ability to read trayvons mind an get a feeling he had saw the gun was reaching for said gun wherupon.

    Haveing read his mind an intentions he dissarmed him by pinning an imobiliseing his arm.

    Had him totaly restrained took carefull aim centre chest makeing sure to aviod his left hand clutching an holding his prey an shot him one time.

    An then sudenly Trayvon haveing been shot by a gun forgot all about the gun he was just reaching for.

    Because he surrendered an said you got it .

    Just like Sean got foggagges phone number

    Trayvon got his hollow point
    from a hollow souless man.

    Id sit down after Jury sees the video listens to the death SCREAMS EXHIBIT B
    An rest my case.

  48. colin black says:

    Better bigots pay for his defence than decent taxpayers.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      colin says

      Better bigots pay for his defence than decent taxpayers.

      that is exactly the way i see it.

      i am not lying when i say that i truly want him to have the best defense his supporters can afford. i do not think he is getting it, however. i would want this for any defendant, any where. yes, i think this defendant is guilty as hell, but in our justice system, we all deserve the best possible defense when accused of a crime.

    • racerrodig says:

      He’s not raking it in like they claim but I’ll bet this conversation has happened in the not so distant past……..

      Wife “…….hey Billy Bob, what the hell are all these notices from the credit card companies?”

      BB “…..huhhhhh?”

      Wife “…..and this Notice from the mortgage company???”

      Wife (envelope opening) “…..this one say we missed the last 3 payments….and this payment to GZ what?”

      BB “uh, I been meaning to tell ya….”

      Wife “….and where the hell is that tow truck taking my car !!!!!”

      door slams…….

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Best yet, if the FBI or IRS gets their hands on that donors list, wow!!!
      Makes it easier to corral them. Hey, maybe someone could bribe O’Mara for a copy of the list? Just a thought.

      • LLMPapa says:

        Thanks, Lonnie.

        You and I have been in the trenches for a long time, my friend. I feel humbled to be in this fight for justice with thousands of dedicated people across this great land.

        We’re almost at the end of our journey.

        • racerrodig says:

          Remember when one of you guys or gals would post “266 days” then “251 days” “213 days” “151 days” “96 days” Now it’s single digits.

          Only 8 days…..Yep, it must suck to be Fogen.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Thank you too for your great work, without which I would have had great difficulty illustrating this piece of work which is quickly becoming my most viewed post ever on my evidence pile.

          Oh, if I find the time I would like to go through your and Trents collection and make a play list that best illustrates things from start to finish. Trouble is, how to get in the narrative needed to connect one video to the next, by bringing the view along without creating confusion. I think the text would have to be in the video.

          Could it be time for you to do one long video? Say an hour? Pulling together from your work and the works of others? That would give you a chance to use some of Professors law instruction and statues.
          As an artist you should never worry about whether or not your work will be popular, whether or not the video will be too long or too short. Just do what you feel you need to accomplish the project to your own satisfaction, then leave the rest to society at large. Remember, no society could exist if the majority were like the CTH. That much we do know for sure!

          Oh, here’s a site I found for countdown clocks you can set as you choose, maybe you’ll find it useful?

          Meanwhile thanks for all the great work your doing.

          Justice for Trayvon
          Tick Tock

  49. LLMPapa says:

    Professor if George doesn’t get on the stand, how’s his really swell story, complete with all the cute lil hand moves, gonna come out?

    • They ain’t going to come out unless he takes the stand.

    • ic2fools says:

      @Rachael, according to Ostermann Shellie put those bandages on Fogen.

      She stated at bond hearing she had not seen Fogen when he went into hiding. Osterrman said he put the both of ’em up. Another Shelies told.

      • looneydoone says:

        ic2fools,
        nice seeing you, my friend, and many other supporters of JFTM gravitating to this site…I enjoyed slapping down the zidiots on huff-pfft for a number of months, but it’s become such a cesspool of inanity and racism, am not spending much time there these days. Only 9 days until jury selection begins. Hopefully he’ll be sentenced to LWOP for the murder of Trayvon Martin (pity we can’t ship his supporters off with him, some are as unhinged and dangerous as him)

      • ic2fools says:

        backatcha my friend. whoa we were behind the firewall over there continually. stuck together working hard to keep zidiot trollz from twistin truths. too many fake socs from just a few posters whom seem to be at it 24/7. truly mental.

        they dare not tread with venom here, f one slips in it is met with outstanding responses and patience of saints. i couldn’t do it so i don’t respond, ’cause you’ve seen i get down right nasty. so my motto now is ‘DON’T FEED THE TROLLZ’..: -)

        i read pc orangatang has changed his position. i’ll be damned if i believe ‘it’, never have an never will trust that one nor the rest of the Sybills’ collectively.

        LOL, I Changed my avatar back to the old one used over there, O’mara running with a bag of donation cash!

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Really great work you do LLMPapa. I’ve just used your video “evidence of direction” to help lock in an interesting point HERE.

      I remember the cartoon of gz and Serino reeling around on the dog walk, we really can use a few laughs, hope you’ll do another one, oh and to finish it off, you can get a screen cap on youtube of one of those looney tunes endings, just to make it more hilarious, maybe add some Charlie Coyote? 😆 Thanks again for all the great work you do.

  50. Two sides to a story says:

    Meanwhile, Dunn has been taking some legal lessons from Fogen, apparently.

    http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2013-05-23/story/duval-judge-jordan-davis-case-steps-down-after-michael-dunn-accuses-her

    • I had some doubts about the judge’s denial of indigency status to the defendant. That didn’t make any sense to me.

      Rookie judge stuck her foot in it trying to be a hard ass and wound up just another ass.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I wondered about the indigency issue and getting turned down. We really don’t know what sort of assets he has, but we know he’s not working, so that should be enough for indigency.

        Of course, getting spared the expense of the case isn’t going to help much. He’s toast. Maybe he and Fogen can compare notes down the road.

  51. Ty Flair says:

    Which five story of fogen you thinks is the worse,if you ask me I think it is the first story he did not have that much time to get his lie together saying Trayvon jump out some bushes. The other four stories was the iceing on the cake.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Conviction cake.

      • ic2fools says:

        with candles spelling out ‘ 35 To Life..’

        • racerrodig says:

          ic….remember from last summer I said I’m having a huge Celebratory Conviction BBQ, all on Team Trayvon are invited….that’s a tremendous idea for one of our desserts !!

          Icing made to look like a cinder block wall, one small window up high, black vertical bars and “35 to Life” written across it…..!

          Date to be announced….

          • ic2fools says:

            Sure do racer, I’ll be there with my apron ready to help. I make a mean pot o’ green beans with potatoes n turkey, peach cobbler and bake my blue ribbion winning homemade bread.

            Hey racer remember we use to send them trolling zidiots back under their bridge. My dear friend I finally left there too. It has become sickening over there.

            Here, I learn, inter-act with opinionated intellectual folks. Every once in awhile we do cut-up here. Hey we got to let the steam off sometimes with a chuckle or two. Hard as it is knowing the seriousness of this case and the sadness it has brought to Trayvons’ family and many of us who it has touched personally.

            JUNE 10, 2013
            TEAM TRAYVON HOODIES UP!!!!

          • racerrodig says:

            i must say the Professor has provided an safe landing spot….and i learn something everyday. Not to mention the people here are the best.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Ty & ic2 ;D

      • ic2fools says:

        I sure do remember racer. I’m there with apron on ready to help. I make a mean pot o’ string beans with smoked turkey, peach cobbler and will bake my blue ribbon winning homemade bread.

        Gosh racer remember we use to send those trolling zidiots back under their bridges.

        Here I learn, inter-act with intellectual opinionated folks. Every once in awhile we cut up. Hey, we have let off some steam every once in awhile. As hard as it is, serious as the case is, the sadness it has brought to Trayvons’ family and those of us whom it has touched personally, we muster up a smile or chuckle.

        (re-post of the same not sure if my original got through, sorry guys)

        TEAM TRAYVON
        JUNE 10, 2013
        HOODIES UP!!!!!

        I’m putting on my hoodie no matter how damn hot it is June 10, I’ll just turn the AC….

        😉

        • racerrodig says:

          BBQ ribs ‘n chicken, home made potato salad, Cajun Style, home made BBQ sauce, and a whole myriad of things attendee’s stated they will bring and a good time will be had by all.

          My son’s band will play along with a few mystery guests and songs dedicated to Trayvon and his family and support.

          Celebratory Conviction BBQ……Date to be announced.

      • ic2fools says:

        Thanks TSTAS ^_^

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      You might want to have a look a this, it’s another story that hasn’t yet been told, but it might very well yield something

      • Malisha says:

        I don’t like the title of that page, Lonnie. “George Zimmerman versus Trayvon Martin” is just the way O’Mara and West are looking at it. They’re saying: “Our guy [who is perfect in every way and therefore not guilty of any wrongdoing] versus some dead Black kid whom we now get to attack to prove the goodness and rightness of our guy.”

        This is not a divorce.

        Fogen had no right to kill ANY VICTIM WALKING HOME that night, much less a child. He had no justification for killing a person of any sort that night, regardless of that person’s prior text messages, school records or propensity for conduct unbecoming the Chief God of the Hemisphere. Seeing the case as “ours versus ‘theirs'” or “insider versus intruder” or “right guy versus wrong guy” or “Afro-Peruvian versus African American” or “decent American versus teen-age gangsta druggie skipper” or any of that is totally inappropriate. The State of Florida has laws. Those laws do not tell you what kind of person to BE. They DO tell you that if you kill someone with a depraved mind and with malice, you have violated the law against Murder-2 and you will, if convicted, be subject to the prescribed punishment/rehabilitation. That’s all.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I’ll agree the title is unfortunate, but when I came to the box and needed a name I just put down the most identifiable thing I could think of. Later, when the page became known, well, too late to make changes. In any event, after some consideration, it doesn’t much matter on one hand, since “what will be will be”, while on another hand, perhaps there’s a chance that some pro Z’s will read there and change their minds. So, I see it as a “6 of one, half dozen of the other” kind of thing.

  52. YQ says:

    (If Trayvon had ran home, he would have been there within 2 mins.< If GZ had got the address of the house he parked in front of, he could have been back into the safety of his vehicle EVEN BEFORE Trayvon gets home.)

    Neighborhood Watch… lived there for three years… needed to retrieve an approximate address?? I'm calling BS on that one.

    I am also calling BS on the story of how the confrontation began. In the reenactment, he says TM jumped out of the darkness and ambushed him with a few choice words before punching him in the nose. When he walks past the crossection of the T, he claims he didn't see anything at first and then TM appeared or somehow materialized from thin air. Whereas, this negates the whole point of you bringing your flashlight, so you can see in the dark. Anyone can see someone that they are following from that vantage point at the crossection-it is wide open area. Anyone can hear footsteps on wet grass. He said he was ambushed??? BS!

    And I know many thugs. A confrontation is not happening like that. The strength of the wolf is the pack. If there was a problem with Zimmerman, his story would have been more plausible if he were in Miami Gardens getting dragged out of his car and packed out by a group of Trayvons all with hoodies and Dickies on.

    He will get his packing out soon enough when he goes to Avon Park or Coleman Federal.

    • A real thug wouldn’t have been running away. A real thug would have been packing heat and shot Zimmerman the instant he realized Zimmerman was following him. He wouldn’t have asked…”why are you following me” either.

      • racerrodig says:

        Exactly, a real thug uses a gun…..did I just say that?? Yep, the only thug in this case used a gun.

      • Jun says:

        They claim Trayvon is some big bad black dynamite but if you think about it

        If Trayvon was really bout it bout it and a hard core muthafucka, he would have started attacking Fogen inside his car, and started pistol whipping him with his gun, however that’s all fantasy LOL

      • Shari says:

        Exactly. If Trayvon were a thug he wouldn’t have been running scared. If Trayvon were a thug Fogen would have stayed in his truck. Trayvon was a CHILD, Fogen is an ADULT.

    • Jun says:

      That’s not true… from the clubhouse to Trayvon’s house would have taken about 4 minutes running at the average human speed of a teenager

      and Trayvon began running away from Fogen starting at the clubhouse after 2 minutes into Fogen’s phone call to Police

      However, if Fogen was really truly intent on going back to his car to fetch an address, he would have been there before the end of his phone call to police

      • YQ says:

        @southerngirl- exactly!!!

        @jun-now that you mentioned it, I didn’t think about it at first but now I see that with each of GZs stories, he tries to slow TM down a second or so. Now we’re down to 2 mins?? GTFOH

      • colin black says:

        Yup Serrino sorta clues him in on this discrepencie dureing his second interveiw I think.
        An foggagge ivents this standing about stock still on R T L for a while because he was near a steet lamp an there was light?

        Just standing chilling in the light as his flashlight was dead.

        An he was so so scared of the dark after all he had just walked throught the dark path unlit past the T with no torch
        An he wasnt anxious to return once again into the scarry dark path back to his truck .

        So nervous he needed that light .
        Thats why he said can you just get them to call me when they arrive an I will tell them where im at at.

        He was to feart to move from the safety of the light an to sissy to admit it.

        But after a while he put his big boy pants on an ventured into that scarey dark an wet an stormy T path .

      • YQ says:

        @colin nicely put. by the way did you ever figure out the surveilance video? I think someone uses a flashlight in there. I don’t remember seeing a timestamp in the video that I saw.

      • Jun says:

        I forgot to include that, you also have to add time for Trayvon to find his keys, open the door, close the door, and then he is home safe, and that is another extra 2 minutes right there and even if his brother was opening the door, more time would be needed, so to be fair, for Trayvon to safely make it home, running at full speed, out of breath, he would be safely inside in 6 to 10 minutes from when he started running

        so 4 minutes to run the distance full speed

        2 to 6 minutes to open the door and get inside the house and be home safe

        Obviously mathematically and circumstantially Fogen, prevented Tray from getting home safe

        I think they can use Fogen’s GPS records on rebuttal and they do not have to disclose rebuttal

        Anyways, Fogen was witnessed by 8, 18, 2, 3, 1, MAry Cutcher and Neighbor, witness 11’s 911 call, Jeremy, witness 6’s drawing, Fogen was stalking and chasing Trayvon and terrorizing Trayvon before the kid started begging and pleading for his life and for Fogen to get off him and stop before Fogen murdered the kid and then staged his self defense claim to try and hide his crime

        The two distances between the clubhouse and the location where Trayvon was killed, Fogen could have only ended up where he was, if he continually stalked and went after the victim as that is a distance of over 500 feet

        There’s no dna transfer or any forensic evidence that Trayvon caused anything on Fogen and only Fogen had forensic evidence of causing any injury to Trayvon and himself

        That 2 minutes crap is a load of crap

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        I’ll ask because I’m afraid to look… What time did gz’s call end?
        We know that he’s located under the first 911 callers window at 7:16:11.

      • KittySP says:

        If we are to believe GZ’s account of being asked to look for an address to direct officers…responsible NW would have asked the dispatcher to stay on the line while the address was obtained and you returned to the safety of your vehicle…considering you just expressed concern over recent robberies, and described a ‘suspicious’ looking person that you didn’t know what their deal was.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      They always do, money-wise. I don’t think God or the karmic winds will be pleased, however.

      • dianetrotter says:

        Looks like people are giving him just enough to support his case. No fluff for security, modifications to O’Mara compound, endless room service, etc., etc.

    • Where are we headed as a country when an accused murderer sets up a fund to solicit blood money after killing an unarmed child?

      • bettykath says:

        I don’t have a problem with a defendant doing what’s needed to get funds for a defense. The problem with this one his bass-ackward priorities of blowing a bundle on non-essentials that would have better used in hiring experts and providing transcripts.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Fortunately, I don’t foresee this as a trend. Too many people coast to coast and beyond know how Fogen used “defense” donations for phones, other tech gadgetry, paying off credit card debt and other previous obligations unrelated to his crime.

      • parrot says:

        @bettykath

        “I don’t have a problem with a defendant doing what’s needed to get funds for a defense.”

        “… a defendant …? We talking about GZ here.

        What did it take to raise the funds?

        O’Mara’s carefully orchestrated flurry of motions that made a mockery of the rules of evidence and interviews containing spin, innuendos, half-truths and outright lies.

        He knows EXACTLY how the donors he is courting think, and he plays to their ignorance and bigotry.

      • Jun says:

        It happens, even in canada

        We had a case where an accused murderer defendant had a defense fund

        He was eventually convicted of murdering a lady

        I think the only major difference is the media is more hardcore in the states so you see Omara smearing the victim more than you would in Canada

      • Cercando Luce says:

        SouthernGirl2@, we are watching the underpinnings of our society erode like a sand castle as the tide comes in.

    • KA says:

      Unfortunate. It makes me ill.

  53. Whyand where is Zimmermans callsand texts from his phone?

    • Malisha says:

      Although there would be hardly any “real” benefit to Fogen from pleading rather than going to trial, one REAL benefit might be that the evidence from HIS phone and other things that have not yet been revealed publicly about HIM (which would come out one way or another or at sentencing if not at trial) could remain under wraps. I am betting that there were things in

      his communications with (a) Osterman and/or Taaffe; (b) Shellie and/or Gracie; (c) his family; (d) Tim Smith and/or other cops; (e) whoever else was part of the cover-up at first or part of the “I DO SO NEED MY GUN ON PATROL” operation itself

      that he does not ever want revealed. And probably some of them the State itSELF does not want revealed.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      They were sealed early in the case.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Fogen’s texts and calls, that is. Some of these may surface in the trial if they are relevant to the case.

      • colin black says:

        yup include nasty snide remarks about Trayvons Pop an an Un named revrant

        Ive specultted is he intelegent enough to know whom Revrant Martin Luther King was.

        An mayhaps he commented sarcaticly in regards to Trayvon Martins Father as

        REVRANT MARTIN.

        But he is to dence to m,ake that conection i m o
        An was most likeley dissin Rev Al Sharpton.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Ain’t it sumpin that some kook reveals the contents of Trayvon’s phone records to the defendant, but no one reveals the contents of Fogen’s? Now THAT IS INTERESTING!

    • type1juve says:

      @Barbara Salters
      That’s what I want to know too. Why is the murderer being given every consideration and the victim is being put on trial after his death? Everything about this case is a sad commentary on where we stand in America as far as race relations are concerned. Even so, I am grateful for everyone here on this blog who has the courage to stand up and let their voices be heard in the quest for justice for Trayvon Martin.

      • racerrodig says:

        Take a chill pill gang. Fogens phone records and texts are so damning they are court sealed until trial.

        Only 9 days…….You’re going to find out he was in contact with several “associates” prior to and just after his NEN call……

        He who laughs last are all members of “Team Trayvon”

      • kllypyn says:

        He did that simply to spur more donations that is their pattern. running out of money pull some stunt the cash flows in.

      • willisnewton says:

        Regarding GZs phone records – it’s my opinion they aren’t “sealed” it’s jut that the prosecution hasn’t had to include them in (publicly released) discovery material since the defense already possesses them.

        • racerrodig says:

          They were sealed by court order early on as being “Highly Prejudicial” that’s because he was calling Taaffe, Osterman, SheLie and they were talking / texting while he was allegedly on his way to Target (someone)

          Stay Kool on this one…..when they get discussed in court, you’ll learn new dance steps.. He who laughs last, are members of Team Trayvon.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Hmmm… Maybe BDLR could include them in one of his motions? Hahaha!

      • Malisha says:

        I think O’Mara and West may have yet a third ulterior motive for releasing things they are not allowed to release and for flagrantly and blatantly doing unethical and wrongful things right now: to goad BDLR and/or Corey into making some kind of misstep that they can start screaming about to feather their “set up for appeal.” They’re begging for prosecutorial misconduct. Looks like they can keep begging; they’re not getting any.

  54. colin black says:

    An you mess with us at your peril

  55. colin black says:

    Judy75201 says:

    May 30, 2013 at 8:41 pm

    Colin, been wondering where you were. Thought you would get a kick out of *someone in a tree* speculating that you are Crump lol.

    Reply

    colin black says:

    May 31, 2013 at 2:06 pm

    Thats a compliment I wish i was that hadsome erudite an compsionate dinified and young an in good health.
    And such a beutifull smile white teeth an complexion.

    Unfourtunately Im a decrepit 54 yr old Scot with a rather small tolarance for blithering eejits.

    Perhaps Fred can enlighten them.

    My name may ne col in black or call in blacks as foggagge loved to do but thats a coinkidink.

    Thats my real name an unlike mr Crump I reside in the UK.
    As my email addy would confirm.

    My name is BLACK as my ancestors were exciled from there CLANS/TRIBES…
    Mc Donalds Mc Greggors .Campbells Macintyres Mc adams were not only familys but actuall tribes of people whom took on the name like
    Native Indians wer apache or Innuits ect
    They were not all incestuously related an neither were Scotish Clans.

    But you took on there name.

    The worst punishment even than death was exile.

    An people exiled from the Clans were stripped of every thing .
    There land possesions ther Familys and there NAME.
    An were for evermore known only as a Black.

    This was about a thousand years ago.
    Hundreds nae thousands of men roamed Scotland known as BLACKS an were shunned by all.

    They bannded together an formed the most fearsome formidable fighting force in SCOTLAN .

    We took there catttle there Women and there whiskey an where feared an respected.

    The English Crown recoggnised there strength an offerd them pay to fight for them against the French Spanish or whom ever.

    The Black Watch regiment was formed some 800 years ago an went on to become.
    The oldest most decorrated regiment in the British Army over 70 percent of the S A S where taken from the Black Watch Regiment.

    Im a Scot an A Black an no one is prouder of me than my name an heritige,
    An thankfully therse a gazilliion colin blacks on google or facebook an im no one of them.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      So THAT’s where Black Watch comes from! In my opinion, it’s the only tartan plaid that looks nice.

      • Malisha says:

        I’m with you. I have always wanted a black watch plaid hoodie.

      • colin black says:

        Aye Black Green so dark its almost black an a dark green that apears light in contrast
        The finest Tartan and or tweed ever produced .
        But of course the kilt as today is modern a couple of hundred years old
        The original kilts were called Cladagh an was a five foot square peice of tartan tweed like a blanket.
        That was worn as an upper an lower garment over shoulder wrapped round an round your butt an front kind of like a short Sahri.

        It wasnt just a garment to wear dureing day but whilst fighting ect .
        It was your blanket at night .

        Or the black watch tartan made excellent camoflage if covered by when liieong in the Highland mountains folliage of ferns an Pine treees .
        One could disapear like those
        Predeter alein dudes.

        Dont mess with the black watch.
        Its the queens own regiment an is her gaurd six months of the year is a detachment of Black Watch Prince Charles is the Regiments Comander.

    • pat deadder says:

      Colin Wow My brother in law was in the Black Watch Regiment for many years in Nova Scotia.Of course he served all over the world.

  56. dianetrotter says:

    Wouldn’t there be impressions of Trayvon’s fingerprints on Zimmerman’s face or some of his dna if Trayvon was holding his head pounding it in the ground?

  57. bettykath says:

    http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/05/30/watch-george-zimmermans-lawyer-talks-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/

    I just finished watching MOM on Rev. Sharpton’s gig. Good respectful discussion.

    The “following” segment of the NEN tape got cut short so the breathing after the “ok” was cut off.

    Rev. Al seems to think it was a police decision to not charge fogen. MOM is correct, imo, that the police needed to have a case before charging. They didn’t until it became obvious that fogen’s stories were like swiss cheese and Serino tried to get him charged. It was finally the DA, backed by the mayor, who said no charges.

    Rev. Al took to MOM to the woodshed, sort of, for releasing all the photos and texts. MOM defended them b/c of all the discovery put out by the state that hurts the defendant. Just a bit of tit for tat.

    It ended with MOM endorsing the demonstrations by Sharpton et. al. in order to move things to the court.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I loved that ending!

    • Cercando Luce says:

      All I know about Mayor Triplett is that he had the 911 calls publicly released. I never heard that he supported Wolfinger’s decision not to charge.

      • willisnewton says:

        “I never heard that he supported Wolfinger’s decision not to charge.”

        Me either. The mayor voted twice however to break a tie by the city council – once to have the police chief step down and once to have him stay on salary, IIRC. He seems to be a fence-sitter who cares mostly about his own job and the reputation of his fair city.

        I’m not a local however and it’s only my two cent opinion, but I don’t see the mayor as much of a “player” in what happened.

        What’s sad is that there was never a full credible outside investigation into all this – what went on inside the SPD, Norm Wolfinger’s office, etc. The family of TM asked for the DoJ to investigate all this, but it seems clear that all the DoJ did was THREATEN to do this and make a big stink, but when the governor appointed a special prosecutor the actions stepped down a big notch to a short-lived investigation into the idea that maybe George Zimmerman may have violated the teen’s civil rights. If they looked any deeper than that, I’ve not seen ONE scintilla of evidence that such an investigation ever occurred.

        Instead, the police chief stepped aside temporarily (while still on salary) and a political fight went on for a while until the council split their vote again and the city manager un-cerimoniously fired him, as was his right as an appointed official. Also, Norm Wolfinger quietly announced he would not seek re-election in order to “spend more time with his family.” Both of these actions reek of back-room dealing that we’ll never know about, sadly.

    • Malisha says:

      Serino and Singleton knew on 2/26/2012 that Fogen did not kill the kid in self-defense. They became more convinced of that on 2/27/2012 and I’m sure that by 2/28/2012 forward there was no doubt whatsoever in their minds.

      Lee and Wolfinger had already agreed to let Fogen get away with it; that was the hitch. It was not (a) lack of evidence of murder or (b) inability to complete the investigation; or any other of the many dishonest excuses offered by the cover-up artists.

      • willisnewton says:

        “Lee and Wolfinger had already agreed to let Fogen get away with it; that was the hitch. It was not (a) lack of evidence of murder or (b) inability to complete the investigation; or any other of the many dishonest excuses offered by the cover-up artists.”

        I’m inclined to agree with you Malisha but where is the proof of this?

        I think Serino and Singleton knew GZ was lying, in general since his story is simply not credibe and set about trying to find a star witness, and didn’t find one. To them it seemed George killed the only “witness” to what happened in the missing minutes, until the world heard about W8/Dee Dee, who as we recall was NOT proffered to the SPD, because by that time the family was pinning their hopes on the DoJ, who IMO didn’t really come thru for them either. It was the people, all 2 million strong who brought the pressure on officials, mostly the governor of Florida to appoint a special prosecutor and conduct a better investigation. The DoJ managed to go through the motions to present a threat to the reputation of the state, and that was enough. But the leader of the change that occurred was “we the people.”

        We are about to see if the Special Prosecutor did conduct a better investigation or not. They got darn lucky with w8, that’s for sure. What else they did is not clear yet. IMO/

        Norm Wolfinger may have just played it safe and pushed for an open and shut case to be handed to him. I haven’t the slightest idea what his real intent and backstage actions were.

        I still maintain there was no credible outside investigation into his actions. Again, if there was, where is the evidence thereof?

      • pat deadder says:

        Imo fogen never got on Trayvon after he murdered him..He was already on top he turned him over after he shot him.He knew people saw him on top so he had to make up that BS story along with the rest of his diatribe.He is a cold,calculating murderer..The sooner he is in prison the better.Everyone deserves a good defense but omara and west have gone beyond the bounds of decency.

      • Malisha says:

        Willisnewton, I was’t proving my allegations about what Lee and Wolfinger did. I was inferring them, of course. If the feds do complete an honest investigation into possible civil rights violations by the SPD and Wolfinger’s office, we should be able to “prove” it at that point in time. Right now I’d say it stands at:

        “There’s a prima facie case for the proposition that Lee, Wolfinger and at LEAST Tim Smith if not other cops as well actively participated in AT LEAST a cover-up of the true events that occurred on 2/26/2012 if not actually contributed to the situation by committing ‘endangerment’ as well as malfeasance and misfeasance in office during the months leading up to that date.”

  58. Donna Flores says:

    I dont know if this has been discussed before, but what happen to the bag that was found without the snacks? Did the bag bust open and Zimmerman plant the stuff on the kid. Put the skittles in the hoodie pocket and then the can in his waistband, maybe that’s why his DNA was found on the under shirt?

    • dianetrotter says:

      Can in wastband – if there was a scuffle, I would think the can would fall out of his waistband.

    • willisnewton says:

      FWIW the “bloody head” photo taken shortly after the killing shows George squatting at the place where the bag was found. There is a distinctive break in the sidewalk right there, where one block is a darker color than the other. The bag, which was photographed and tagged right there shortly thereafter is not in the photo but it should have been, possibly.

      Much to speculate regarding all that, but anyone who has ever carried a “t-shirt bag” for a long distance knows that the plastic cuts into your hands eventually and you start looking for other ways to carry the load. I’m guessing the “hand in his waistband” comment concerned TM holding the bare can in his hand or hoodie pocket as he walked along. Or else the can was there in the hoodie pocket and the hand held the cell phone out of the rain beside it.

      I also wonder if GZ pulled the bag out hoping to find contraband. It’s possible that TM smelled of marijuana, whether he had smoked recently or not. Or GZ was grasping for straws after discovering the teen was unarmed, and he’d just killed him for nothing.

      We’ll never know, absent a full and credible confession from you know who.

      Little of this matters however, except to the curious, like us.

      • hotheadpaisen says:

        Since were speculating about that photograph it’s been said that it looked like he was on the phone in that photograph… what is that thing next to his right ear?? I guess I dismissed the thought , until I read the statement of that first witness (#13) who came around the corner with a flashlight. he told FDL E, “I think he was on the phone it sounded like he was on the phone.” Does anyone have any opinions on that? his phone and text records will come out at trial, right??

        • racerrodig says:

          His phone / text records are so damning they were sealed until trial…..O’ Mara won’t even say a thing about them. That’s a major part of the putting the victim on trial aspect…..It’s gonna be a hot time in the old town in “only” 9 days.

          • Just thought about it……There are groups in this country that would hide and support him were he to rabbit…..

            I just want it over with and fogen behind bars…

            His life was unraveling….debt, rent, school (and the lies told along with it)….Who knows what else….add that to an inferiority complex.

            Just a wild guess….If it hadn’t been for Trayvon…….he would have been involved in some type of similar shit within the year…

            Sad that Trayvon had to pay to bring this train wreck waiting to happen to the light.

            Ya’ll have a GREAT weekend

            HOODIES UP

            JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON

          • racerrodig says:

            Absolutely….Fogen was just going to happen to somebody. Like I’ve said before, I believe he was of the ilk that just because he had a gun he had to find a reason to use it on someone. Sooner or later, it was going to happen.

            He’ll get his. Look, I have TV, a car, a lot of tools, a computer, a stove, a fridge, a freezer, a lawnmower, a gun, a truck, guitars, furniture, clothes and a temperature regulation system (heater / AC). Now, which of those are bad to take the posture “I must use” ?

            Not a very hard choice, but I’m betting everyone here will get that one right.

            You have a great weekend my good man…..

            Remember “only” 9 days…Hoodies up & Skittles held high.

      • LeaNder says:

        Willis, not that it matters much. My cousins were all rather tall and all were rather lanky. When I heard the statement about the hand in his waistband first; for whatever reason, I immediately saw my favorite cousin in exactly this position. We did a lot together, and at one point I copied it, since I thought it somehow looked cool. Besides, the pockets are further down, and let me tell you, it is even comfortable. 😉

        I may be completely mistaken, but didn’t you sometimes have problems with were to put you hands exactly at that age too?

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        O’Mara’s “swaying at 711” is shot down because, most 711 stores have music playing, so many customers sway to it.

  59. willisnewton says:

    What was GZs intent when he deliberately left out the part of the story where the teen ran away each time he told his (impossible, contradictory, inconsistent) narrative to the SPD investigators? He never once volunteered this information and only speaks about it reluctantly when prompted. He left it out of his written statement, he left it out of the first account to singleton, and he left it out when he related his ” story” to the “voice stres test administrator” who was nothing but a decoy sent in to get him to tell his story uninterrupted once more.

    Why did he leave this out? Because its clear IMO he parked his car facing the mail kiosk and then chased the teen briefly down Twin Trees Lane causing the youth to run away in fear.

    George drew a map showing this parking spot but quickly crossed it out just before relating an impossible tale of TM “doubling back” to circle his car.

    IMO GZ tried to push a false narrative that left out any instance of him having moved on his car behind trayvon because he knew what an aggressive act it seems like to stalk and slow-creep behind someone inside a gated community. How did he know? Because that was his INTENTION, to be aggressive.

    • type1juve says:

      @willisnewton
      Yes, GZ’s intent was formed before he ever exited his vehicle. He was aggressive and intimidating to Trayvon, a typical bully. I also believe he was itching to use his gun and saw this as an opportunity to do so.

    • KA says:

      I suspect he did not realize NEN calls was recorded as well.

      • dianetrotter says:

        What was GZ’s intent when he got out of the car. If Trayvon asked why GZ was following him, that was the time to state his purpose. If he had a good reason to get out of the car, not the address BS, he could explained that to Trayvon and the police. The looking for an address and stating that he didn’t have a problem don’t fit the flow of events. The dialog GZ alleged doesn’t fit the flow of events either. I can’t wait for the trial. My husband looks over my should and thinks I’m obsessed with this.

        • racerrodig says:

          The fact that Dee Dee and at least 1 witness said Trayvon asked FogenPhoole what his deal was, makes him the problem.

          He’s a kid who ran then asks why he’s being followed, and we’re to expect Trayvon just smacked him.

          Fogens reenactment does not have Trayvon asking him that, but at least 2 witnesses said Trayvon did…….one lives how many miles away and when she said that had no idea that at least 1 other person heard it.

          Bye ~ Bye Fogen…….

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          With the disruptive unitron gone and 8 days remaining until trial, we’ve not only had people here making good catches, but we’ve also had people fashioning new theories, incorporating new learning too boot.

          Like a ship sailing the seas, not everyone on board can be the captain or the chief engineer etc. So to the same goes with a nation. It is upon those of our society who find an interest, to work that interest and that accrues to the benefit of all. So, if you’ve become obsessed with the social task of working for justice, society needs you to do so. As I’ve said, not everyone in society or the nation can do it all alone. Who better to search for an obtain knowledge of the minutia needed to determine if things are on right track, than those few who can become obsessed?

          Take that badge of obsession as a compliment, for you are making a generous contribution to our society, it is more properly termed a PASSION! Inform him that you have become passionate with this cause for justice!

          Okay so now we’ve locked down that there are two area where gz has manufactured stories out of whole cloth. One in the area of Frank Taaffe’s place, and the other about being attacked at the Tee. We now know that gz was, in fact, 40 feet or more south of the Tee when encounter occurred. The hard evidence places him there at a time when he claims he was at the Tee, and he therefore could not have been in both places.

          We are not using made up stories or conjecture, theories or guesses to place him ~40 feet away from that place, we are using the capture of his own voice on the 911 tape, further bolstered by the testimony of eyewitnesses to place him there. So, his story of an attack at the Tee is a false self serving concoction, made to conceal the fact that he hunted, caught and killed a helpless kid with his handgun. And disproves that he is some sort of neighborhood hero, risking life and limb to keep the neighborhood safe.

      • willisnewton says:

        I agree that he spoke to the SPD investigators as thought the NEN call was not recorded, even though of course that’s the first thing the call-taker told him – “this line is being recorded!”

        That’s how arrogant he was, and how stupid he is. I wonder if he liked calling that number because he ALWAYS thought it wasn’t recorded. One would think that after calling the cops 46 times he might have gathered that much but I agree he acted like he thought the call wasn’t recorded.

        His escapades with his jail calls are enough to show he isn’t the sharpest stick in the bundle. He had ample warning there as well.

      • KA says:

        Yes, they also say it for jail calls, but he didn’t listen then either…

        I am sure he went “hot in the face” when he found out the officers had listened to his call….

        • racerrodig says:

          “…I am sure he went “hot in the face” and still didn’t realize it put his ass in even hotter water….

          I’m thinking he’s got 3 or 4 of the spots taken on Worlds Dumbest Criminals top 10 list.

          SheLie “…oh, you’re such a role model…..and we’ll live the good life soon….do you really think our conversation is being recorded like this sign says”

          FogenPhoole “….Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, that’s only on TV and in the movies…..just ask my dad”

          • Give the fogen credit for knowing the jail calls were recorded. He used a code to discuss money. Not a very sophisticated one, but a code nevertheless.

            He apparently did not know that the NEN call was being recorded and that is worth an arched eyebrow or two.

          • Coded messages….yeah right…..about the same kind of codes we made up in grade school…….

            Gotz me a name for their team…..The monster & the moron

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Gee, just about any call we make today is: “monitored for quality assurance”. How could he think that the police wouldn’t? After all, these calls to them could contain critical evidence.

      • ay2z says:

        KA, he knew. Self-serving to claim he was ignorant.

        A few examples starting with the night of the 26th Feb:

        I get the idea that in the midst of eyebrow distortions, Prof doesn’t buy it either.

        NEN Sean: “Sanford Police Department, line is being recorded, this is Sean.”
        GZ: “Hey, we’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real supsicious guy, ah it’s Retreat View Circle…”

        NEN Diedre “Sanford Police Department. The line is recording, this is Diedre.”
        GZ “Uhn, our neighborhood got burglarized or robbed today and my wife saw one of the kids…”

        NEN Sharon:
        “Sanford Police, this line is being recorded, Sharon speaking.”
        GZ; “Hi, I was just calling because ah we have had a lot of break-ins in our neighborhood recently and I’m on the neighborhood watch…. two Afrtican American males….”

        NEN René “Sanford Police Department, this line is being recorded, this is René.”
        GZ “Hey, can I get an officer to [blanked out] ?.”
        NEN René “Your name?”
        GZ “George [redacted]”
        (bomber hat trash days black guy in vinyl printed pajama pants)

        Call 7
        NEN Carlette: “Sanford Police Department, lline is recorded, Carlette speaking.”
        GZ: Hi, ah, I’m sorry did you say Collette?
        NEN Carlette: Carlette
        GZ: “Carlette, my name is George…. kids… kids gotten accustomed to playing in the street…”

        http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/zimmerman-9-1-1-calls/

    • Malisha says:

      The voice-stress guy, Erwin, was sent in to do that test at Fogen’s request (probably advised by Osterman to request him) and he said to Fogen, “Your wish is granted” when he started the test. Fogen wanted the test because the SPD and Wolfinger were trying to set up a “good story” to excuse their decision to NOT CHARGE Fogen. Erwin was on Lee’s and Wolfinger’s side and he performed his trained-seal act for THEM. The fact that it started with Fogen giving his story was not to try to draw Fogen out; at that point, Fogen was delighted to tell his story over and over (even though he changed it each time) because he had been assured there would be no negative consequences. He was enjoying that.

      Remember that when the police showed up on 2/26/2012 (Tim Smith first), Fogen never asked, “Is he alive? Is he gonna be OK?” He said that he didn’t know his victim was dead until about an hour later in the police station. This was not only NO ACCIDENT, it was something Fogen absolutely GLORIED IN until it came around to bite his a55, and then when he began to realize that his a55hole might not get away!

      • hotheadpaisen says:

        Great points regarding Ervin. I couldn’t believe it when he started out by telling Zimmerman he could be stressed because, “You were attacked. The guy got shot.” REALLY??! Isn’t that what you were supposedctovdecide after the ‘anslysis’? (and we know officer Smith had already told Ervin that GZ was attacked. And we know Ofc. Smith told Doris Singleton that it was a ‘probable self defense’ before she interviewed Zimmerman. and we know that even after the case was handed up to Detective Serino, Zimmerman called Ofc. Smith to ask if he was allowed to leave town. Gee will we ever find out why Ofc. Smith was so vested in Zimmerman being seen as innocenct? To Your other point, it has always bothered me enormously that none of the investigators ever asked Zimmerman when he found out the kid was dead or how he felt about it. Yes, it is said that he didn’t find out for hours, but I find it impossible to believe that. He knew that the EMTs rushed to Trayvon first. he knew that within minutes they returned to clean him up. He knew Trayvon was not taken away by ambulance. all of the witnesses knew he was dead. Of course he knew Trayvon was dead. I believe he knew Trayvon was dead when he mounted his body and searched him, trying to find anything he could claim was a weapon.

      • Mary Davis says:

        @ Malisha. “This was not only NO ACCIDENT, it was something Fogen absolutely GLORIED in until it came around to bite his a55, and then when he began to realize that his a55hole might not get away.

        I agree that he gloried in the attention with no thought about him just killing an unarmed teen. Well his a55 is getting way more attention now. Wonder how he’s enjoying it now, besides trying to eat himself to death before trial.

        • racerrodig says:

          “Only” 9 days !! The heat is on !!

          The heat is on, on the street
          Inside your head, on every beat
          And the heat’s so high, deep inside
          The pressure’s high, just to stay alive
          ‘Cause the heat is on

          Oh-wo-ho, oh-wo-ho
          Caught up in the action justice been looking for you
          Oh-wo-ho, oh-wo-ho
          (Tell me can you feel it)
          (Tell me can you feel it)
          (Tell me can you feel it)
          The heat is on, the heat is on, the heat is on
          The heat is on Oh it’s on the street , the heat is – on

          Oh-wo-ho, oh-wo-ho
          Caught up in the action justice been looking for you
          Oh-wo-ho, oh-wo-ho
          (Tell me can you feel it)
          (Tell me can you feel it)
          (Tell me can you feel it)
          The heat is on, the heat is on, the heat is on
          Oh it’s on the street , the heat is – on

          You’re life on the darker side
          Behind those doors, it’s a wilder ride
          You can’t make a break, you can’t win you can only lose
          That’s a chance you take, when the heat’s on you
          When the heat is on

          Oh-wo-ho, oh-wo-ho
          Caught up in the action justice been looking for you
          Oh-wo-ho, oh-wo-ho
          (Tell me can you feel it)
          (Tell me can you feel it)
          (Tell me can you feel it)
          The heat is on, the heat is on, the heat is on

          It’s on the street
          The heat is on, the heat is on, the heat is on
          Yeah it’s on the street
          The heat is on

      • Two sides to a story says:

        You can see Fogen enjoying his stories. He seems to show little stress about answering questions (even considering that some people internalize stuff) and seems to have little regard for his victim).

      • Jun says:

        I believe that there was a conspiracy to cover it up

        If you check out Fogen’s allegations presented by Omara

        Fogen claim he felt betrayed that he was arrested

        If there is truth to that, that means someone said something along those lines to him

        • racerrodig says:

          “Fogen claim he felt betrayed that he was arrested”

          Explain that one in court…..Another Freudian slip, or a ratting out of sorts. Either way, one prosecutor and one Chief of Police are now unemployed, as is Fogen, SheLie. Osterman, Oliver, Taaffe, and Donnie West quit a good job to join this motley crew.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            The money raised so far by the defense may seem a princely sum, however with most of it spent and the remainder to be all they have for the rest of their natural lives, unless the defense team finds new employment, they’ll starve. In less than 2 more weeks MOM’s reputation and practice will be in tatters, but hey, it’s Orlando, there’s Disney world and I-95, a great place to set up a frozen banana stand for the tourists, wouldn’t you say?

          • racerrodig says:

            But people have a tendency to avoid buying anything they know is poisoned. I’m thinking he’s going to apply for this role.

            http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Dopey

      • Your average person who has had to defend themselves to the point where they had to kill someone is usually in shock or extremely upset after doing so. GZ was so glib about the entire incident to the point where he was telling a neighbor to “just tell my wife I shot someone”. Any man who truly cares about his wife and protects her as Osterman claims GZ does, wouldn’t want his wife to be alone when she finds out this type of life-changing information. He could have had the neighbor call Osterman and have him go to Shellie and tell her the news in person so she wasn’t alone. Yet GZ’s total lack of interest in TM’s condition is evident from the minute he climbed on his back, possibly pressing his face into the ground since he was found face down. Only a moron would buy the story that TM was moving around and GZ was telling him to, “stay down, don’t try to get up” to the point where he needed help restraining him. GZ was aiming for a lethal shot, not one that would impair TM so he couldn’t run, but a kill shot, right in the center-left of his chest. Most people would be so upset or in shock after having to shoot someone that they would want to find out the condition of the person they shot, not GZ. He was calm, cool and collected with normal vital signs just moments after the shooting. This despicable POS needs to go to prison for life for taking the life of an innocent kid. I’m praying for a jury to see the real truth in this situation and to see right through GZ’s many different fairy tales relating to 2/26.

      • EdgySF says:

        Fogen said it was he who hollered for help, not the victim.

        Clever, isn’t he? He figured ear witnesses would have HAD to hear that desperate cry for help. It did go on for about 45 seconds.

        What he didn’t figure was that the death cry was recorded.

        The first witness on the scene says that Fogen was calm, cool & collected.

        It will be interesting to hear MOM explain how Fogen went from crying desperately for help one second, to being calm, cool and collected the very next second.

        Who said that Trayvon’s face had a dried tear on it…the funeral director, or the ME?

        Anybody who thinks a grown man with a gun would cry like that – especially with an unarmed teen – has an agenda. That is clear.

      • willisnewton says:

        Where’s your proof of this theory?

        It’s my contention that the voice stress test was a ruse; it had the effect of getting GZ to tell his inconsistent and contradictory narrative one more time after only haltingly telling it to Simgleton. It also had the effect of making him confident enough to continue to cooperate without a lawyer present.

        It’s POSSIBLE he felt a fix was in but it certainly doesn’t sound to me like Serino and Singleton were in on anything.

        And whatever you believe happened with Lee or Wolfinger, I’ve seen no proof.

        many things are possible; what GZ claimed happened is not possible.

      • LeaNder says:

        Fogen claim he felt betrayed that he was arrested

        No conspiracy necessary for Fogen to feel betrayed. 😉

        Mark Osterman, told him, tell them simply what happened and nothing will happen to you. He was a former deputy after all. When Osterman’s book was published Fogen had not ever contacted him again, after having spent the early weeks there. At least that is what he claims via his ghostwriter.

        Besides, the stand your ground law made it more difficult for police to arrest people someone who claims self-defense. Before it was introduced it meant: arrest first, ask questions later, after it police needed probable cause before they could arrest.. They first had to prove there case.

        I am wondering about this Erwin guy too, surfaced too prominently in O’Mara’s activities. But why did they interview him twice, didn’t they file a motion to be allowed a second interview with him? Doesn’t really suggest he talked his head off the first time. On the other hand he seems to have witnessed Tracy’s infamous statement to Serino. Were more of them present there all carefully watching Tracy? Couldn’t one of them have mentioned him. Admittedly I was enormously suspicious of Randy Smith, till O’Mara published his partial knowledge via deposition, after that not so much anymore. Fact is O’Mara can manipulate us perfect by his partial releases. He selects bits and pieces we focus on. He does not tell us why exactly these parts.

        So best I have heard or read so far is Frederick’s theory he uses motions to shape public opinion. But if there were others, why mention Erwin in this context?

        Does anyone remember at what point he makes the remark about Serino, before he asks him to tell the story or after?

        Serino/Smith may have made sure this took place somewhere with a video running, so they had video of his version(s) to compare to the reenactment. But strictly, couldn’t it be that Erwin too, needed to have a certain amount of spoken language to compare and maybe even check if there were prominent features or changes at specific points of his tale?

      • Trained Observer says:

        Malisha — His a55hole will not escape attention in prison.

    • Mary Davis says:

      @ willisnewton. My thought exactly. Some believe that fogen did not set out to intentionally shoot and kill Trayvon, but imo his behavior proves otherwise. He already knew that Trayvon was a minor (his own words, “he’s in his late teens”). The simple fact is, he chased Trayvon, Trayvon ran in fear, fogen caught up to him and killed him, even after he begged for his life. Would he have done this same vicious act to a real thug?. I don’t think so. Imo this should have been a first degree murder charge because this is a cold blooded killing.

    • LeaNder says:

      willis, seems I have never seen this map, or I forget. Do you have a link? Or alternatively can you tell me, where I find it?

  60. pat deadder says:

    Thank God put like that it is very straight forward.I just want to ask a probably irrelevant question. Can the potential jurors be asked any questions about guns.eg do you own a gun.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I’m guessing that’s something the prosecution might be interested in. But IANAL nor do I know much about jury selection.

    • LeaNder says:

      The question for concealed carry would be more interesting. But strictly towerflower seems to hold a concealed carry license too, and I wouldn’t really want him out of the jury.

      While, yes it seems to be a basis for support, I am not even sure if in that would ultimately influence him or her if the evidence points the other way.

      I could imagine someone holding a concealed carry license coming out of the trial after conviction stating: I am glad, I was in there. Strictly I hadn’t make up my mind before about the case. The only thing I wondered was, could it happen to you, if you really only defended your life, they could be prosecute you without giving you the slightest chance, as some some acquaintance suggested to me about the case before. …

      Without going too deeply into it, I guess any “single” selection feature may well leave a trace of uncertainty as far as far as expected response or position is concerned.

      What would interest me most, admittedly just popped up in my head, are there people in Sanford that support the gzlegalcase fund raising efforts over the year and spend a lot of time closely reading their case releases and all their statements, could they turn up on the list? Oh, I forgot Rene Stutzman’s articles. 😉

      • LeaNder says:

        shit! I made some changes and did not really check the results, I hope you get the idea anyway. Or has it been turned unreadable by not checking? I may well have

        Maybe this is the worst passage:

        Correction: I only wondered, if you could be really prosecuted without the slightly chance to prove your case for only having defended your life, as some acquaintance suggested to me about the case before

      • fauxmccoy says:

        i cannot imagine that ‘do you own a gun?’ type questions will be entertained by the court, especially in florida nor will questions regarding self defense. it is a basic human right to be able to defend ones’ self.

        our second amendment guarantees that we can own a firearm. this question would be no more valid then ‘have you ever disagreed with the government and spoken about it?’

        as you can see clearly, within the confines of this blog alone, many of us do own firearms. it is because we are responsible gun owners that we view the defendant’s actions as questionable (ok, beyond questionable, but he has not been convicted YET).

  61. Trayvon Martin family to speak at Miami peace gathering

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-trayvon-martin-peace-miami-20130531,0,2094797.story

    With George Zimmerman’s second-degree murder trial just days away, the family of slain teenager, Trayvon Martin, will speak at a peace and prayer meeting in Miami Saturday afternoon.

    Trayvon’s parents, Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin will speak at 3 p.m. Saturday at the Bethel Apostolic Temple at 1855 NW 119 Street in Miami. A crowd of more that 1,000 people is expected to attend the Community Program of Peace, Justice and Prayer.

    A prayer service will be held for Trayvon and the upcoming trial.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Sybrina, Tracy and all of Trayvon’s loved ones,

      As the trial date approaches, I wish to reiterate my complete support for all of you during this most difficult time.

      You are a first class act as you seek justice for Trayvon. I admire your inner strength and graceful, calm amidst all the negative overtones of the Z people.

      You have weathered the storm with great dignity, faith, and courageous perservance.
      .
      .

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Sabrina and Tracy:

        .

        Tears in your heart
        Weeping for your child
        Soul ache

        Moving forward in the name of your child
        Using the ache in the name of your child
        Steadily stepping toward the light of justice

        Lifting up all children
        Seeking a safe world for them
        saying never again

        A journey overseen by Trayvon
        A cause built of tears
        A clear voice that will be heard

        .

        Tho’ the walk be rough,
        the din will be silenced
        by the goodness.

        Yours is a steady light,
        dispersing the darkness.

        You WILL be lifted up.
        You WILL sail to the worthy heights.
        Your wings will be supported by us.

      • racerrodig says:

        Beautiful Sentiment…..you all know where I stand.

    • Jun says:

      I gotta give a shoutout and mad love, namaste, amitaba to the soul sister number one Sybrina and her family and RIP Trayvon

      1 Love ❤

  62. renah says:

    Apology in advance for being OT but i am so upset.

    i havent posted here before but i have read everything from the very beginning (& firedoglake, too).

    peter hyatt, owner of another blog, posted an article about this case and i replied with a link to this site if reader’s wanted more details.

    peter hyatt removed my comment/the link–after horrible people posted god awful vitriol. UNINFORMED vitriol.

    i added 2 more comments which were totally non threatening or critical or unreasonable. Two of my comments are now poofed into nonexistence & probably the 3rd comment too by now.

    this is the first time–the first time!– i have ever been censored in over a decade of internet use. i am in total disbelief!

    how can anyone form an opinion without knowing the facts??

    • renah says:

      And btw– the hateful vitriol is allowed to remain, if not encouraged!!

      i think ive gotten closer to understanding how victims of prejudice must feel.

      😦
      renah

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Yes. There’s a lot of vitriol going around. :/

      • Malisha says:

        Renah, the hatred and vitriol show in the starkest relief when the bigots feels themselves losing ground. It’s like a kicking screaming hissy fit that discharges all the rage-energy they have pent up inside, and it happens when they can’t manage to bully everybody into submission. You’ll see a lot more of it in the next month, so get inoculated. 😀

      • LeaNder says:

        renah, I experienced the same on Jeralyn Merrits blog TalkLeft, that was a first time for me too, or that I ever had comments disappear or being censored ever.

        It made me really angry first, and I thought the best would be to leave. First I started to take screenshots of comments my own and others that I felt would disappear. Then I decided that I wanted an explanation from her why she considered the comments against her comment rules. What followed were some highly interesting exchanges. She did in fact stop to delete my comment after she realized she had to explain the rules I had broken. I also asked her why someone else’s got deleted and she started to invent lies for it. She obviously was not aware I had taken screen shots.

        Sorry, long answer, but I wrote this to let you know who have my deepest and most sincere sympathy. I am not a very emotional person, but it seems to deeply hurt. I only experience rage in such moments.

        That said, my impression is that people that do that want to somehow control the message. In other words they want supporters of Trayvon to feel alone and want them to give up responding or join what they perceive as majority. That’s what it feels like to me, anyway. And partly it seems to work.

        But Malisha is right too, it may have to do with the fact that they cannot allow any challenge to their positions and face the fact that they really do not know what happened. In other words they need GZ’s narrative deeply. It helps them keep up their view of the world out there. Not allowed to challenge, you know. The “suspect” has to remain “suspicious”, although there is no evidence for it.

  63. KA says:

    MOM’s current argument that pot made Trayvon paranoid is interesting when you compare it to being followed and pursued at night by someone you don’t know….

    Is that really the definition of “paranoid”? (see number 2)

    par·a·noid (pr-noid)
    adj.
    1. Relating to, characteristic of, or affected with paranoia.
    2. Exhibiting or characterized by extreme and irrational fear or distrust of others: a paranoid suspicion that the phone might be bugged.
    n.

    Is reacting to someone unknown CONTINUOUSLY and deliberately following you through the dark rain in your exact path, both in and out of the car, through a dark cut through considered irrational fear? or paranoia?

    I would call that a logical,impeding threat. No paranoia about it.

  64. Shari says:

    What facts do we know about Trayvon’s actions? We know only that there definitely was some kind of contact/struggle, do we know Trayvon ever was able to defend himself or strike GZ? Was the contact only GZ wrist lock restraining the child, then the child tries to flee his unknown assailant? I thought the autopsy lent credence to the fact that Trayvon never struck GZ? In the beginning I assumed he went out fighting. Now with the evidence it seems like the minute? Encounter didn’t include Trayvon going down fighting.

    • cielo62 says:

      Shari~ With the absence of both DNA on Taryvon’s person and the total lack of defensive wounds of any kind on Trayvon (when you hit someone you also get bruises), then no, it appears that Trayvon never so much as touched gz.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      There was only one spot on Trayvon’s clothes with GZ blood. That was on the bottom shirt near the bottom seam. If Trayvon would’ve so much as touched GZ’s face while it had blood on it, there should’ve been blood on Trayvon’s sleeves, cuffs and under his fingernails.

  65. ay2z says:

    Thank you Prof, for the article and for this comment to reinforce with the clarity of Papa’s video.

    May I suggest we reflect on Prof and Papa’s messages and let go all the fluff and smoke and dust and dirt?

    Let ourselves be invigorated through the simple clarity of this case as we move forward through the final few days before trial.

    (perhaps something in tomorrow’s Miami Peace Gathering and prayers for Trayvon, will give me an idea for a new avatar.)

    Peace gathering story link:
    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-trayvon-martin-peace-miami-20130531,0,2094797.story

    By Desiree Stennett, Orlando Sentinel
    11:11 a.m. EDT, May 31, 2013

    With George Zimmerman’s second-degree murder trial just days away, the family of slain teenager, Trayvon Martin, will speak at a peace and prayer meeting in Miami Saturday afternoon.

    Trayvon’s parents, Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin will speak at 3 p.m. Saturday at the Bethel Apostolic Temple at 1855 NW 119 Street in Miami. A crowd of more that 1,000 people is expected to attend the Community Program of Peace, Justice and Prayer.

    A prayer service will be held for Trayvon and the upcoming trial.

  66. Malisha says:

    Before Corey was appointed, Fogen knew he could get away with the old “just say anything” defense because he knew the fix was in for him to get away with murder.

    He has never gotten over the fact that the fix could not last past a giant public outcry and the assignment of a REAL prosecutor to deal with the actual evidence produced at the scene.

    He’ll have time to get over it, though.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      “I haven’t really had the time to reflect on it. When I was in jail, obviously I was in solitary confinement and I had a lot of time to think and reflect. I just think it’s a tragic situation, and I hope it’s the most difficult thing I’ll ever go through in my life. But –”

      But what?

      • KA says:

        He is too busy being vigilante “SUPERSTAR” to the funding racists…

      • Yep, that there’s some hella deep thinking.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Two sides —

        Well when I was in jail … I had a lot of time to think and reflect, but I concentrated mostly on how to handle Peter Pan and what to order from the canteen list for my snacks.

      • KA says:

        TO –

        Financial scamm’in takes a huge amount of brain power and energy…I mean, he had to create a unique CODESPEAK!

      • KA says:

        (because Pig Latin would do..)

      • KA says:

        *wouldn’t

      • Two sides to a story says:

        The jail calls show he did a significant amount of thinking about the Peter Pan, where to put all those $9.99 and that thing locked in the box.

      • Rachael says:

        You know TSTAS, he talks a lot but says absolutely nothing. Totally circular. Goes nowhere.

      • lurker says:

        Seems as though he spent a whole lotta time on the phone there in solitary.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Nowhere Man

      • pat deadder says:

        Two sides Yes that’s exactly what he said on Hannity.Can you imagine.He definitely is crazy as a loon.

      • hotheadpaisen says:

        That is among my favorite of all his absurd statements: ‘he didn’t have time to reflect while he had lots of time to reflect.’ He cannot remain consistent, even from one sentence to the next. How I wish we cold have a look into his mental health records. ~IF~ he has ADD , that’s only the tip of his pathological iceberg.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          hotheadpaisen says

          How I wish we cold have a look into his mental health records. ~IF~ he has ADD , that’s only the tip of his pathological iceberg.

          oh man, it would be fascinating, but that is one rabbit hole i would not want to crawl.

        • racerrodig says:

          “…“I haven’t really had the time to reflect on it. When I was in jail, obviously I was in solitary confinement and I had a lot of time to think and reflect. I just think it’s a tragic situation, and I hope it’s the most difficult thing I’ll ever go through in my life….”

          I don’t have ADD or ADHD or…..oh look….a red truck !!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Holy crap. A red truck! I have ADD and can make better sense of life than that . . . definitely his pathology runs much deeper than that.

      • LeaNder says:

        Yep, that there’s some hella deep thinking.

        Yep, that’s the most interesting part of it all. I don’t think he is able to face it, that’s why I also suspect he told no one the truth, not even his family or his wife. Hard as it seems to believe. But everyone he told it too would have power over him.

        What comes to mind in this context, is his odd grin, as he answers the question, if he wished to have done anything differently. What a pity, to pick up on others associations, here we do not hear an honest answer either: Well, look, I never had such a huge support ever in my life Look, Hannity, would I ever have been on your show, if I had done something differently?

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          You’re doing it again, reaching deep into the mind of the offender to fish out the sordid elements of his thinking. It’s like catching nuclear mutated fish in some putrid stream ala “Friday the 13th”.

          Of course we know that gz idiot was failing at everything. But he had been doing that for a very long time. Only thing different this time is, something unforgivable he had done, had caused Daddy and Mommie to cut his umbilical chord. Now, he sat at home all day with no money to do the usual shopping, a wife going hungry who, I don’t believe he’d let her go eat dinner at her father’s house if he wasn’t welcomed also. He was in a terrible fix and facing a terrible humiliation. He was behind in his rent, facing eviction, payments on his truck had not been made and his bank accounts empty.

          Worse thing ever is, in his abject despair, you’d think that his so called friends would come to his aid. Nope, instead they just fanned the flames of his egotistical based racial hatred. I guess they all had brought into the meme that blacks moving into the RATL, had cause the home values to drop. That makes sense because, they’d be trying to deny that Florida’s putting Bush in the White House, and his deregulation of F.I.R.E. had anything to do with the real estate boom and subsequent bust. No, they’d rather just blame it on blacks.

          So, they got together and pushed the weakest most fragile personality among their racist Klan into the fire! Which is why, I’m pretty sure that gz believed that what he was doing was going to be popular with his family and friends and the HOA board. Which is why this post of mine is getting so many hits. Over the last year we’ve found plenty of reasons to believe that there were plenty of people who would have involved themselves if they could have. It seems apparent now that some of them did.

  67. Zia B. says:

    HLN is pissing me off.

  68. bettykath says:

    Thanks for this explanation. I have read many comments (not here) that claim the defendant was always acting legally. This explains why not. And if it’s shown that from his phone calls immediately before and after, that Taafe and/or Osterman were involved, may we see more charges?

    • We might and we might not.

      I believe we won’t because anyone who might have assisted the defendant to locate and detain Trayvon probably wasn’t down for a murder and may have decided to cooperate and testify against the defendant.

      GZ’s phone logs and text messages would be a good starting point to unravel that part of the case.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Doubt Fogen intended to share the glory of his heroic community service act. …. his statement about calling out for help, but “nobody would help me” further underscores his lone ranger mindset. (I don’t believe he was generously trying to cover up for his pals whose involvement in the spotting/stalking may be exposed in those phone logs and texts.)

      • bettykath says:

        hmmmm. Now that would be a kick in the teeth to fogen.

    • Malisha says:

      You know, a person locking his kitchen door is not illegal. A person cutting off phone service that is in his own name is not illegal. A person pouring canola oil all over his own floor in his own house is not illegal. A person leaving heavy objects on strings and attached to cabinets in his own home is not illegal.

      But if a person does all these things, and then goes to the backyard and loudly calls to his wife (who can only walk with crutches, who is life-dependent upon medications and who is quite frail) and tells her that she should go down to the kitchen to check something out, and she goes down, falls, gets crushed by falling objects and cannot call for help through 911, is it legal for that man to get in his car and drive away while he hears the agonized shreiks from inside the kitchen?

      Certainly driving away from home in one’s own car is legal!

      The test of a person’s conduct to judge it as legal or illegal is not dependent upon a series of separable segments being judged as if they were not part of a continuous act. And nobody is being asked to find Fogen guilty of “getting out of his car wrongfully” or of “wrongfully following.” He did actually kill someone. The question is whether or not he was justified in that killing. So his prior acts leading up to the killing may be judged NOT as crimes or non-criminal acts, but as acts that display the characteristics of the killing itself.

      Was the killing itself done with ill will?

      Following indicates ill will.
      Threatening indicates ill will.
      Identifying the victim as a “suspect” indicates ill will.

      Was the killig itself done with a depraved mind?

      Insisting that the victim was an asshole who should not be allowed to get away indicates a depraved mind.

      Calling the victim a “fucking punk” indicates a depraved mind.

      Refusing to assure the victim that he is not about to be hurt indicates the most depraved mind.

      I think that’s a Q.E.D.

      • Dan Q. Smith says:

        It was “coon”.

        • racerrodig says:

          Yep, and I’m thinking the prosecutor will have enough watts in the system so all of the jurors can hear it very clearly.

          • Shari says:

            I remember when CNN replayed that segment of sound over and over. Afterwards I agreed with the “punks” and that’s what Corey put in the 2nd degree murder information. I thought it was the other word, someone is very invested in removing race from this murder.

            You never know with this kind of thing. A reality show star was accused of saying f_____g n____rs. She said her words were mushed together and she said f____g ladies. I still don’t know about that one either.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @shari

            i think the prosecutors stuck with the word ‘punks’ because that is what the defendant admitted to saying and it is damning enough in regards to motive/intent.

            they are not limited to supporting that argument in court, however. if they have good expert testimony that more ugly words were chosen by the defendant, you can be assured that they will go with that. even if that particular point is not proven beyond a reasonable doubt, ‘punks’ is good enough for their purposes.

            to put this down to a more personal level, anyone who is ever pulled over for speeding usually responds to the officer’s question ‘how fast do you think you were going?’. once you’ve stated a speed (and folks generally will admit to some speed in between the posted speed limit and their actual speed) the officer writes down what the speeder ADMITS to driving, while usually adding that they were clocked at much higher. the important thing is what the speeder admits to because that is what would be considered if case went to trial. speeder admits to speeding, there is generally no way out. it’s a confession.

            i was always taught to say something to the effect of “officer, i believe i was going the speed limit”. this has worked quite well for me (note that this has not occurred in over 25 years). generally, however, i was let go with a warning, once it had been explained that admitting to any speed over the posted limit is in fact a confession that can and will be used against you.

          • racerrodig says:

            I have quite a bit of high quality sound reinforcement gear (P A System) and by using certain pieces, the EQ and effects processor, I can isolate different frequencies or remove those that muddy the words up.

            He said coons.

      • LeaNder says:

        That was a perfect illustration of Prof. Leatherman’s post. I especially like the suspense technique you used. 😉 I was wondering what would follow.

        Incidentally it reminds me of a co-student in the limited classes I took in law over here. He never used one single German paragaph of the laws or it’s numbers, he always illustrated it. The way you do above. Mostly quite hilariously. But our focus wasn’t on criminal law.

      • aussie says:

        LOL Malisha…. And if that very “legal” guy is GZ, he’d tell the cops he put canola oil by mistake, he wanted to use polish stripper.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        @malisha
        Excellent argument.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Sure, if at this late date their involvement is discovered they face conspiracy charges.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      I really don’t understand why people keep claiming that GZ was acting legally when he repeatedly followed and harassed Trayvon.

      IANL but GZ’s conduct seem to fit nicely into what is defined as stalking under Florida Law

      (1) As used in this section, the term:
      (a) “Harass” means to engage in a course of conduct directed at a specific person which causes substantial emotional distress to that person and serves no legitimate purpose.
      (b) “Course of conduct” means a pattern of conduct composed of a series of acts over a period of time, however short, which evidences a continuity of purpose. The term does not include constitutionally protected activity such as picketing or other organized protests.
      (c) “Credible threat” means a verbal or nonverbal threat, or a combination of the two, including threats delivered by electronic communication or implied by a pattern of conduct, which places the person who is the target of the threat in reasonable fear for his or her safety or the safety of his or her family members or individuals closely associated with the person, and which is made with the apparent ability to carry out the threat to cause such harm. It is not necessary to prove that the person making the threat had the intent to actually carry out the threat. The present incarceration of the person making the threat is not a bar to prosecution under this section.
      (d) “Cyberstalk” means to engage in a course of conduct to communicate, or to cause to be communicated, words, images, or language by or through the use of electronic mail or electronic communication, directed at a specific person, causing substantial emotional distress to that person and serving no legitimate purpose.
      (2) A person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person commits the offense of stalking, a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
      (3) A person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person and makes a credible threat to that person commits the offense of aggravated stalking, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

  69. Lonnie Starr says:

    DD also confirms that Trayvon ran. After gz gets close enough, Trayvon asks why he’s following him, gz fails to give a non hostile answer and some vigorous movement causes Trayvon’s phone to fall to the ground, where DD hears Trayvon saying “get off, get off”.

    DD’s call disconnects at 7:16:xx because T-Mobile doesn’t give seconds. But a 911 callers phone picks up from there at 7:16:11. So we now know for a fact that DD’s call disconnected in the earliest few seconds of 7:16 pm. At that time we hear Trayvon screaming in either pain or terror. So, we know for a fact that gz was more than 40 feet south of the T and no where’s near any path that should have carried him back to his truck.

    Had gz been on the north walkway of the T, then it would have been possible that he was actually on his way back to his truck. Unfortunately, had he actually turned around and headed back to his truck, when he claims he did, he would still have been on the phone with NEN when his self serving claims of being attack had occurred.
    However, we now know that is not the case.

    The evidence places him 40 feet or more south of the T, in an area he has no explanation for being, other than that he pursued Trayvon to this area. As opposed to his false claim of innocence, based on Trayvon pursuing him.

    • LeaNder says:

      DD’s call disconnects at 7:16:xx because T-Mobile doesn’t give seconds. But a 911 callers phone picks up from there at 7:16:11.

      Lonnie, they round up to full minutes over here. T-mobile is the split off and privatized telephone part of our former state hold “German Post”. But strictly this habit was used by others too. Meaning if the call disconnected at least theoretically at 4 minutes 5 seconds it would be charged with 5 minutes. I have seen online records of another provider for a prepaid plan that shows precisely the seconds but than charges as T-mobile quite possibly does the rounded up full minutes of the call.

      So the 4 minutes can mean anything up to 4 minutes straight but not 4 minutes 38 seconds, since that would make it five.

      T-mobile must offer some type of prepaid plans too, since the records tell us that DD calls in from a T-mobile connection, which means they must have some type of software in place to keep track of the difference between the time the calls last and the time that is charged. I am assuming Tracy had some type of flat rate that allowed him to include family members, were strictly it may matter less. But I doubt that the T-mobile’s US management would not want to know this very precisely, since it is deeply connected with the price they can or want to offer for the minute. I have not seen a single person in the field we call controlling over here, using the English word that would not want to have precise data. And that is exactly the area, often headed by people with a background in mathematics were such date would matter. Which makes me feel it must be collected. Pricing is an important tool in economics.

      So I have been wondering for very long now if there is not a different more precise number of the call somewhere out there. At least there may have been at an earlier date.

      Am I repeating myself, or have I only thought that, when I saw similar posts? Sorry, I didn’t want to make this so long, but yes it is an important point in our story.

      Afterthought cell phone tower connection and disconnection times. Could they exist? Would they be more precise?

      Another afterthought, are all the records rounded tor the connection time too?

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Great point, so 7:16:xx means anywhere from 7:15:00 to 7:15:59.

        But, all that does is put the first contact at somewhere between 11 seconds ago and possibly as much as 1 minute 11 seconds ago.
        That would seem reasonable because that would give gz nearly a minute more torture time before the 911 call starts.

        It’s significant for what might have happened during that time, but it still locates gz and Trayvon from the start of the encounter to the gunshot. Fill the extra time with whatever speculation, but gz can’t be anywhere near the Tee at the time he claims.

        I’ll keep this in mind and make the needed adjustment later, but for my purposes it isn’t very significant since my question is, “who are those people making that racket that bent the corner?” I think she drew a diagram of their movements too. So, either she’s lying or there were other people out there racing, in the rain, towards gz and Trayvon.

        But yes! Thank you for the help, as I said ITAV to get it right.

      • aussie says:

        LeaNder, if it’s billing minutes, that means they’re charging up to 7:16, which means the call would have ended earlier, anytime after 7:15:01. Which makes sense, as 11 seconds was not enough for something to happen and the first caller to hit 911.

        I don’t think they’d keep the cell towers logs for this long. They’d not be billing logs, only error-finding ones.

        The company though is sure to have more details. But if the prosecution got them, we’d have seen them in an evidence dump by now.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Okay, I’ve added your correction. Thanks for the catch.

    • looneydoone says:

      Lonnie,
      ref: Case 24023, official report by ME Forensic Investigator, Tara Malphurs
      >>”At approximately 1910 hrs, on 2/26/2012, 911 dispatchers received a call from a resident of the complex. The resident advised of a BM who was at the complex between the townhouses. The caller stated the male should not have been in the area and observed the male while out walking his neighborhood watch”

      This 3:07 min 911 call from a male resident, reporting the presence of a BM between the townhouses doesn’t mesh with fogens 4+ min call with NEN
      ESC CAD #12-0570199
      Agency Report # 201250001136
      Event #2012 057167

      • aussie says:

        That report is wrong to start with, because he didn’t ring 911, he called NEN. But … same office I guess just a different phone. When they came out, the dispatch logs were examined in detail. The start time for GZ’a call wasn’t right; apparently the logged time is when they started typing, not when the call actually connected. (They can’t start writing until they’ve heard enough to know what to write).

        So we know more about it than the investigator who wrote that report. It was the same call. If anyone else had called as well, I think we’d have worked that out by now.

      • ic2fools says:

        Mi pal looneydoone, so good to see you here, miss ya’ll!

        IIRC, there are surviellance tapes, that should show time stamp when Fogen entered and exited RTAL. Including Lakes’ Edge, 711 and the Bank that night. Those tapes will speak truth that Fogen has not.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Yes, I read that some time ago but it didn’t click since I had nothing else to connect it to, with the evidence we had not showing anyone else observing and so many erratic reports, I guess I just let this one go bye bye. I’ll add it to my timeline and other post as a link to your comment. Thanks

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Ah yes, Aussie reminds of why I forgot about this, we had this long time ago over on bcc:list.com. I think I’m going to quit for a while and cook some dinner.

    • LeaNder says:

      Aussie, that’s exactly what I meant here.

      at 4 minutes 5 seconds it would be charged with 5 minutes.

      But yes, I would have advised Lonnie too, to change his “1 minute 11 seconds” to a maximum of but unlikely “one minute 10 seconds”, which would make DD’s call 3 minutes 1 second.

      Since if one minute and 11 seconds could pass between the end of DD’s call and the 911 call recording the screams, her call would have ended at 19:15:00 and had only taken 3 minutes not four.

      The company though is sure to have more details. But if the prosecution got them, we’d have seen them in an evidence dump by now.

      They may have had costumer specific data early on but only during a limited time frame. No you don’t have that in the US.

      Beyond that time frame I would expect over here the data is recorded according to specific rules statistically that the people that may deal with it find most convenient. Our customer specific phone data had to be preserved for three month but was changed lately to six. That type of data would allow you to take a look at specific calls.

      • LeaNder says:

        have ended at 19:15:00 and had only taken 3 minutes not four.

        not taken three minutes but been charged three. Sorry, that was misleading phrasing.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Hmmm… so this means we’re back to the 11 second gap? Not the 1 minute 11 second gap? (I’ve got so much going on I’m not doing any thing well right now).

      • LeaNder says:

        No Lonnie, we are not back to the 11 second gap, we can be anywhere in between 1 minute 10 seconds and 11 seconds. Means we are facing a little insecurity. We have a tape were we hear screams, at point the fight must have been going on, because w11 must have responded to something. And I think it is fair to assume it started with a verbal encounter as some report.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Okay, but her phone still locates them a few dozen feet south of her location and had they moved north, the sounds would have grown louder and clearer. The 1min. 10 second gap is 70 seconds and that’s only a “guestimate” the bell curve would put the most probably time around the 35 second mark, since it’s a “trim” between Dee Dee’s dropped call and the 911 begin.

          We have the rounded time of DD’s drop out, which is what gives us the 70 second max gap. But that’s reduced by the time it takes Witness 11 to hear, identify and decide to call, then dial and connect. which can credibly take us easily towards the mean of 35 seconds gap. They’re hardly going to travel 80 feet in 35 seconds, while screaming and struggling, without causing any variation in intensity of the 911 call pick up.

          Thus, either way they’re still located there, some 45 feet south of the Tee, where in just 45 seconds the gun is fired. Foggen’s full minute of head bashing is gone, and without any trace on Trayvon’s hands, and them located 45 feet south of the Tee while all this happens, gz’s claimed of being beaten by an underweight “skin and bones” teen with no familiarity with physical offensive/defense at all, well, suffice it to say that gz is caught telling lies once again.

          • LeaNder says:

            Lonnie, please erase the maximum gap, it may well be statistically unlikely.

            Yes, fact is that w11 needed time to respond. No one picks up the receiver immediately when he notices something.

            Also keep in mind that the other side in the person of Jeralyn Merrit considers the fact that w11 was the first to respond as evidence that the struggle started exactly were Fogen said. Never mind that the way sound spreads makes it very hard for us to guess at were originates. Cat are much better at that than we are.

            Concerning the full minute of head bashing, even w6 makes that go away. On the other hand O’Mara will argue it is hard to guess how much time passed in under such “seriously life threatening” circumstance.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Nope they never made it back to the T, LLMPapa’s “Evidence of Direction” and the dropped items, when coupled with the lack of movement in the 911 call tape, where they neither get louder or fainter, as they would if they’d been moving around. Shows that from the time of DD’s call drop to the time 911 picks up, there is almost no motion, nor any indication of any. Even the witnesses who peek out, see them in the same location within a very few feet.

            If there was anyone else making noises that “bent the corner” it could not have been Travyon and gz. So, either witness 11 is lying, in a mangled/misguided attempt to place gz and Trayvon at the T or north end of the walkway, or those noises she claims she has heard, were made by someone else. Funny the 911 call doesn’t pick them up, eh?

          • LeaNder says:

            I have no idea about witness 11, and I would never accuse her of lying. It was Jeralyn Merritt’s argument, not her’s. Witness 11, never mind she is on the HOA board did a good job by calling 911 so fast. She is the one of the people that to a large extend made the publicity this case got possible.

    • LeaNder says:

      Lonnie, no idea how it happened but it seems now I have perfectly managed to confuse you even further.

      OK, the verbal struggle could have started only 11 seconds earlier with w11 reacting enormously fast. That would be if Trayvon’s cell phone disconnected at 19:16:00 straight, or it could have started up to 59 seconds earlier. Although it more likely was somewhere in between19:15.01 and 19:16:00 .

      Crazy, no idea how this blunder could happen. Sorry.

      • KittySP says:

        Is it also likely that what w11 heard was young boy and his dog? Is that the direction he was walking? He said he heard someone moaning in pain and appeared to be only one person. I often wondered if at that time, is when the ‘smothering’ took place…GZ could have heard this kid approaching and quickly layed on top of Trayvon to keep him quiet.

        Also, w11 claims of hearing the rucus bending around the corner of the ‘T’…if it was that much of a comotion, I can’t imagine residents whose back of the homes that faced that sidewalk not having heard and witnessed anything.

  70. Stormwatch says:

    Trayvon Martin was the one standing his ground when Zimmerman murdered him.

  71. Trained Observer says:

    For everyone who gets hopelessly bogged down in minutiae, this posting is a wonderful KISS lecture.

  72. If GZ had killed in self-defense, he would not have had any reason to lie about it.

    But he did lie, and we know he lied because, as Investigator Gilbreath said,

    We have Mr. Zimmerman’s statements, we have the shell casing, and we had Mr. Martin’s body.

    Specifically, Trayvon’s body and the shell casing were found 40 feet away from the T-intersection where the defendant claimed he was attacked.

    He lied about where he shot Trayvon because he wanted to conceal that he went after Trayvon instead of returning to his vehicle.

    It’s all so simple and obvious. Nothing complicated about this case at all.

    Here’s Papa’s video:

    • Two sides to a story says:

      And boom. To this day, Fogen supporters claim that what Gilbreath said is proof the prosecution has no evidence and no case. As we can see, they have very simple proof that what Fogen described did not happen. This is not unusual with criminal defendants who lie about what they did!

    • racerrodig says:

      “…I fell down…” I looked up fell & fall on several sources. Why didn’t he say the punch “knocked” me down ?? or “I was knocked back by the punch”

      Fall, past tense fell is by definition a act of ones own and / or accident “I fell down the steps” or “I tripped and fell”

      I believe this is another Freudian slip.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Agree ,,, .

      • colin black says:

        I think his mom slipped an droped him an he fell on his head as a baby an dindt bounce.

        • racerrodig says:

          Something happened..maybe she appeared out of nowhere, the dark or from behind some bushes and didn’t know what his deal was. Maybe, just maybe, she punched him in the nose.

          Maybeeeeeeee he fell out of bed and bonked his noggin to hard. Whatever, he’s a nut job of that there is no doubt.

    • Tzar says:

      did I miss a release, how do we know Trayvon acted in self-defense at all?
      we can be pretty sure he ran
      but his hands are free of blood or defensive wounds?

      • ay2z says:

        What would stop somoene from hitting out in defense, but yet sscreaming, no…. crying out in terrified shrieks?

        Maybe if someone had a gun out, emotionally torturing, threatening to kill him. That is one option.

      • Shari says:

        Yeah Tzar I agree with you. I want to believe he went down fighting but I see no evidence that he acted in self defense. I don’t think he laid a pinkie on GZ. Trayvon’s actions were all trying to get away.

        What sickens me about this is that we practically have the murder on tape. People should be outraged about GZ following a child in the dark. How can that be defended? I know I would be terrified if a man in a truck followed me then left his truck to track me on foot.

        Who says Trayvon harmed GZ? Well, GZ and that’s it. GZ has no credibility because he has lied. Lied about his graduation. Lied about the passport and money. Lied about what happened. Trayvon’s body was not found near the truck, so the facts don’t mesh with GZ’s words. The only corroboration he had was the witness that went on FOX, but he has recanted. He didn’t witness Trayvon harming GZ. And how could Trayvon have? GZ was an armed adult who had worked as a bouncer. GZ’s adrenaline was rushing, like he said those azzholes weren’t going to get away.

        I can’t agree with this “Trayvon acted in self defense” statement because I have no evidence of any action on the part of Trayvon. I can only assumed he tried to get away from GZ’s grasp.

      • tonya B says:

        I agree with you tzar

    • lurker says:

      Thank you. O’Mara referred to his questioning of Gilbreath last night when he was on the Rev Al Sharpton’s show. Last night he made it sound as though Gilbreath said there was no evidence, and leaned particularly on any evidence of who started the altercation. Was meaning to go back and check exactly what was asked and answered.

      • KA says:

        I believe the questioning to MOM in the hearing was “Outside of witness testimony… do you have any other evidence that GZ confronted Tryvon?” Gilbreath’s answer “No”…

        That is a LONG CRY of no evidence for this case…

      • KA says:

        I meant FROM O’Mara, not TO O’Mara..

      • racerrodig says:

        O’ Mara also stated there is no evidence at all anywhere that Fogen was not heading back to his truck on the command of the dispatcher. Huhhhhh ? ! ?

        How about 40 ~ 1 foot pieces of evidence counselor.

        You boy initially stated he was punched at the T and fell backward. 40 ~ 1 footers dude and it’s ONLY 9+ days to trial.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Just OM trolling for dollars. He got them. Fogen still goes to jail.

        Boom.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Racer – Fogen is on tape 2/27/2012 in his reenactment demonstrating how he continued to follow to “look for an address.” Out of all the lies that OM has told on national TV, that one is really a whopper.

        • racerrodig says:

          I apologize for not getting back with anyone….man has it been busy in the shop…..anyone interested in a beautiful ’32 Caddy?

          Anyway, you’re right. maybe we should have a top 10 lies list. He has basically said to the world……

          I think you are all so stupid, you’ll buy anything. Trouble is, he’s the stupid one, “…I think it’s……undisputed”

      • kllypyn says:

        there is evidence the “creepy guy” started it. DD heard what happened before Trayvon’s phone went dead.
        will no long refer to the murderer by name.

        • racerrodig says:

          I think at this point we should use the word “only” when we refer to the days to trial.

          It’s only 9 days…..look how far we’ve traveled on this.

          Only 9 days Fogen…….

      • cielo62 says:

        Racer~ a 1932 Caddy??? What color is it? The Google images are to DIE FOR!! YIKES, I think I’m in love!

  73. Justchill says:

    Sorry to be off topic but wasn’t there supposed to be some sort of hearing scheduled for today? Or is the next hearing on June 6-7? Thanks!

    • KA says:

      It was over the media and photographing jurors. Media filed yesterday making the hearing not needed so JN cancelled it. I think the next one is June 6/7

    • lurker says:

      The hearing on June 6-7 may attract some notice, although I haven’t seen a lot about the issue except for the Miami Herald. Apparently the AG’s office is investigating and has put someone on admin leave in connection with the charge that the state did not hand over pics and texts from Trayvon’s phone.

      My thinking is that this will be a tempest in a teapot once it gets to court, and Bernie can show that O’Mara was given the raw data from the phone (and I don’t know if he also received the recovered texts/pics at some point or not)–and if anything any sanctions will be put off until after trial (which will not be delayed), along with the others.

      But, I have seen some folks itching to blow this into a conspiracy to destroy or withhold evidence.

  74. fauxmccoy says:

    thank you, professor – this has been my argument from the moment i became aware of this case.

  75. KA says:

    That is an iInteresting argument. I had read something with the same conclusion but a slightly differing argument written last year.

    I will try to find it and link it, but she made the case that Trayvon’s obvious awareness of someone following him and watching him Deedee’s testimony and “he;s running” NEN GZ comment) could be interpreted as an assault threat. She inferred that the implied “threat” and legal “assault” would be then be instigated and maintained by GZ and thereby giving Trayvon the right, not only to defend himself, but a SYG right as well.

    She quoted a few cases where people had driven a car towards someone and was ruled as an “assault” by FL courts. She felt in the same way, the apparent awareness of Trayvon that he was being “threatened” by following (also considering him a minor) that he could legally confront, punch someone, knock down, and do all to stop the one doing the assault.

    I would assume if this is a valid argument, this would not make GZ’s injuries a factor considering the “assault” that was initiated by him. I am not sure though, what additional consideration would be given to Trayvon since he was a minor, obviously knew he was being followed, and aware he had a 14 yr old stepbrother alone at home about 100 FT away. He had no knowledge of who GZ was (and if he did ask, GZ gave a juvenile, 12 year old answer “I don’t have no problem”) thereby felt reasonably threatened for not only his own safety, but the safety of his 14 yr old stepbrother at home. He knew he was being followed initially, when he thought he “lost him” and started to calm down and walk, the “stalker” appeared again, and if Trayvon ran home and the guy followed him, he would be risking the life and safety of his stepbrother. (

    (The GZ defense theory that “Trayvon didn’t want GZ calling the police” holds no real water as Trayvon was not in trouble with the law, and had no legal reason to fear the police being called.)

    Don’t get me wrong, I do not think Trayvon punched him in the nose and beat his head in, the DNA, physical, and circumstantial evidence does not support that, BUT even if he did, it would seem he would be granted the SYG status as it is proven (by GZ’s own words) that Trayvon had an awareness he was followed. That being said, regardless, the injuries, nor the position of the “fight” should not prove anything in this case.

    I would like to see the defense “prove” that Trayvon did not fear for his life…GZ said he was running…that is obvious fear and retreat.

    • Malisha says:

      Fogen’s “proof” that Trayvon was not running from him in fear was that HE, Fogen-of-the-always-right, SAID to Hannity that Trayvon was not running in fear. Remember? “Skipping” or “moving away quickly but NOT in FEAR.”

      Fogen thinks he can reinterpret not only his own actions (“God’s plan”) but Trayvon’s as well.

      • KA says:

        So he was running, but not out of fear?

        If someone is running, you can tell what their thoughts are?

        I think “Shit, he’s running” in the heat of the moment is pretty obvious.

      • KA says:

        Also, why else would Trayvon run? Because he didn’t want him calling the police? he was “guilty” of something? He was “doing” something illegal?

        Since Trayvon had no police record, a reason to be there, he purchased his products legally with cash, and he was a minor, legal guest, what other reason did he have to run outside of fear of an unknown, stalking man?

        Even in GZ’s false, stated response, Trayvon had awareness he was following him since he asked “what his problem was”…

        Since GZ offered no reason for him following him (in any told version), his “going for his phone” in his pants pocket or whatever would still be considered a suspicious and threatening move to a kid, doing nothing illegal, being followed in the dark.

        If some one followed me in the dark both in car and on foot, I asked “what his problem was” and he said “I don’t have no problem” and went for something in his pocket…I would consider that a threat, take my keys and jab them in his eye and run like hell…and I have never smoked pot or anything else…

        I think whomever’s “version” the jury believes in a worst case scenario, I think, at a minimum, the implied threat of following at night, and the reaction to fight and ward off the “threat” is a plausible action anyone would take.

        Saying Trayvon came up behind him and sucker punched him is not even consistent with GZ’s own story or the presence of a phone call.

      • KA says:

        “Fogen’s “proof” that Trayvon was not running from him in fear was that HE, Fogen-of-the-always-right, SAID to Hannity that Trayvon was not running in fear. Remember? “Skipping” or “moving away quickly but NOT in FEAR.”

        Would that not be called “conjecture”? Is there an evidence rule is for that?

      • Malisha says:

        KA, I guess it could be called a “conjecture” but I’d probably call it a bold-faced lie. As in, “so now you want us to pretend… uh … you want us to believe … oh c’mon son …” 🙄

      • JustMe says:

        KA.. very good catch..!

        If fogen was sucker punched, how in the world would he even have time to think of reaching for his phone, let alone reaching for his phone or have time to get it out as he said in one of his interviews?

        “Saying Trayvon came up behind him and sucker punched him is not even consistent with GZ’s own story or the presence of a phone call”

      • Nellie Nell says:

        He knows damn well that kid was in fear. He thought he was playing some type of game and that he would not be questioned about his actions by anyone other than his SPD buddies. All that snickering and smirking has come to a halt. This murderer thought he was much more smarter than his actually is. Every time I watch any of his interviews, he make me want to puke! The Hannity interview is the worse as he smirked when he said, “Just myself” when asked if there were any witnesses to the murder. He is a lying coward.

    • dianetrotter says:

      I would be scared too death if someone were following me in plain sight. When I turn to ask what the problem is he says “I don’t have a problem.” If he doesn’t have a problem and is obviously following, the logical conclusion is that “He is the problem.”

      • Trained Observer says:

        Exactly … as in EYE don’t have a problem, implying that U do, baby.

      • kllypyn says:

        Trayvon never said that. He said what are you following me for?O wosh people wpuld stop quoting zimmerman said we him to be a liar.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Whatever GZ claims he said and how the encounter occurred is false, we have hard evidence that refutes him completely and entirely HERE

          You can also look for ScreamingJ’s collection which is his transcripts of the calls and testimony HERE.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        SCREAMNINGJ’S COLLECTION is where he tries to reduce the calls and testimony to transcripts on a spreadsheet giving the times the statements were made.

        I have no idea of where he sourced his information, but what he has from witness 8, aka Dee Dee, I think you’ll all find very interesting.

      • Malisha says:

        Lonnie S, I can’t get access to that very interesting spreadsheet thing. I have tried three times now. Can you give me a url where I can view it?

      • thejbmission says:

        dianetrotter says:

        I would be scared too death if someone were following me in plain sight. When I turn to ask what the problem is he says “I don’t have a problem.” If he doesn’t have a problem and is obviously following, the logical conclusion is that “He is the problem.”

        Diane, I would be scared to death too!
        Without a doubt, Trayvon was defending himself as Prof. Leatherman stated. Trayvon Martin was standing his ground.
        That has been my stance since day one because at no time did GZ inform TM that he was the NWC.
        GZ had a couple of opportunities to do so as detective Chris Serino pointed out. One, GZ could have told TM when TM supposedly circled his vehicle. <– as GZ claims.
        And two, if we believe DeeDee which I certainly do. She says she heard TM ask GZ a very logical question, "what are you following me for?" IMO, when TM asked that question, it was GZ's moral duty as NWC to tell Trayvon, "I'm the NWC and I'm just trying to find out if you have a valid reason to be here..yada, yada."
        Who knows, TM may have decided to accommodate him and tell him. "I'm here visiting my dad, yada, yada".
        Had Zimmerman done that and then Trayvon attacked him <– as he claims, then he might have a defense but since GZ is a murderous buffoon, he killed an innocent young man and he should pay the price.
        JMHO

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Yep, with just a few simple words gz could have prevented the death of a child. Instead gz willfully and maliciously withheld those words and instead drew his weapon and killed the kid in cold blood. A child who was neither a thug nor a criminal, who had committed no crime.

          The main reason, for all practical purposes, that gz should be held to serve life without parole in prison is, because he claims that his mission was to fight crime, when in fact, he had no legal, social or other right to fight anything or anyone at all that night, in that place and at that time. There was no mission he could claim to be on, that gave him a legal right to frighten anyone at all, less a child!

          Then, while on this insane and illegal “crime fighting mission”, gz fails to exhaust every alternative to use of force and killing, even though he has no right to be there behind the child, forcing him away from his home –[See: “Evidence of Direction” an LLMPapa Video Here]– It was not legal for gz to cause Trayvon, to alter his path home by one solitary inch!

      • parrot says:

        @Lonnie
        I can’t get to the spreadsheet either.

      • aussie says:

        I’ve long held the first close contact was south to north up AS FAR AS THE T. where they turned and ran south again. So both witnesses could be right.

        My theory is, the phone fell where it was found but Trayvon broke free and ran further north, where GZ caught up with him. I like to think GZ ran into the little tree, giving Trayvon enough time to turn south again to FIND HIS PHONE to get help. And that’s when GZ twisted his arm and started getting really nasty.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          They made contact before DD’s phone call cut, there would have been as much as 1 minute 11 seconds before the 911 call picks up, there’s 80 feet to move and witnesses peeking out, cutting into the 71 seconds available and without the sounds being picked up by the 911 caller getting either louder or fainter. Thus it’s extremely unlikely that they moved very much at all after contact was made.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            To make matters even more complex, why would they somehow, even coincidentally come back to just a couple of feet south of the phone? Most likely, if they’d dropped things and moved away from that area, they’d be unlikely to return there at all. Most especially not within some 71 seconds. And remember 71 seconds is the max possibility on a bell curve the median is the norm and the most likely.

            So we’re probably only talking about some time in the range of about 35 seconds or so.

      • aussie says:

        Screaming Jay listened to the original tapes as per AxiomAmnesia, and added the times himself.

        It’s in a Google Docs thing, you may have to sign up to be able to get at it.

        At first a lot of it looks blank, because he lined them up by time, so the later calls are empty at the top of the sheet. You can fold the columns to get any two statements side by side and compare what they were saying at the same time.

    • lurker says:

      The problem remains–Z’s narrative cannot be told unless he takes the stand. And if he takes the stand he loses, because no matter what he says on the stand, it contradicts something that he is on the record as saying.

    • Brandi, missouri says:

      This is very well thought out. Makes sense

  76. CherokeeNative says:

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