Did Mark O’Mara advise the HOA to settle the Fulton-Martin lawsuit

I am hoping to find out today if Mark O’Mara played any role in advising the HOA to settle the wrongful-death lawsuit filed by Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton.

Sundance Cracker at The Conservative Treehouse claims that he did. This is the website O’Mara has publicly referenced with approval as a source of ideas.

Since Benjamin Crump represents Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton that would certainly qualify him as opposing counsel for purposes of the silly deposition issue.

More importantly, he would have a conflict of interest because he would be in possession of inside information obtained from his client, plus all of the discovery that has not been released to the public, and advising the HOA to settle before the criminal trial.

That’s the equivalent of saying:

GZ’s self-defense claim isn’t going to fly. He’s going to be convicted of murder 2, so you better cut your losses to a minimum by settling now.

If true, that’s a conflict of interest and a major violation of a lawyer’s obligation to maintain client confidentiality.

Imagine how you would feel, if you were George Zimmerman.

O’Mara should be kicked off the case and disbarred, if he did that.

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686 Responses to Did Mark O’Mara advise the HOA to settle the Fulton-Martin lawsuit

  1. I am working on another post that may require at most 2 more hours.

    It should be worth the wait.

    The title is:

    I saw what you did there Bruce

    • parrot says:

      “I am working on another post that may require at most 2 more hours.”

      It has been a day since he posted this. I hope the Professor is all right.

  2. pat deadder says:

    Does anyone think fogen’s story about getting on top of Trayvon to hold him down after he shot him could be a lie because Ive been thinking he knows people saw him on top so he’s trying to say he got on top after.IDK I don’t care now if he pleads guilty or a trial I just want this SOB in prison.I f he goes for a plea doesn’t he have to say what happened.God I don’t know how Trayvon’s family stand it.

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @Pat –

      “Does anyone think fogen’s story about getting on top of Trayvon to hold him down after he shot him could be a lie because Ive been thinking he knows people saw him on top so he’s trying to say he got on top after.”

      Absolutely. He flipped Trayvon over (“flipped” was Serino’s word, and George did not dispute that) and I am absolutely certain he did so to frisk Trayvon for a holstered weapon in back, just like Zimmerman carried. This would establish Trayvon as an armed thug, with George having to fire first to protect himself. He had just frisked Trayvon in front, for the same reason – thus the spot of Z’s blood on Trayvon’s under-sweatshirt.

      Then, after checking the back waistband and finding no weapon, he checked higher on Trayvon’s back to see if the hollowpoint bullet did not, in fact, shatter – but shot right through Trayvon into the ground – just nailing it for Zimmerman that he was on top and had his victim, Trayvon, pinned to earth before he shot him. But there was no exit wound – the bullet performed “perfectly” for Zimmerman.

      The neighbors witnessed this on-the-back search.

      Nobody saw Zimmerman vertical until well after the fatal shot.

      • jo says:

        even though i do think gz tampered with trayvons body after the fact i think he was probably looking for proof he was a thief or something, or as someone said checking the wound and making sure the kid was dead. I think he knew trayvon was not armed.

        If Trayvon was armed and was mercilessly attacking GZ and was going to kill him(i don’t believe that but it’s gz’s story so lets just go with that for now) then why try and pummel him to death when he could have used his weapon…no need to approach someone and punch them in the face (again, gz’s story) if you can pull out a weapon and ensure the creep doesn’t follow you any more…. and it goes without saying that gz was lying when he said he thought trayvon was hitting him with something…no way in hell Trayvon repeatedly hit with just his fist let alone with a weapon or they would be scraping gz off the footpath.

        either way gz was lying.

        and now that he has used that mind boggling reason of trying to hold Trayvon down because he didn’t know he had even shot him i guess he can never say he was searching for a weapon so he must have known he was unarmed……by the way fogen, if you are trying to restrain someone on the ground because you think they are a danger to you..you don’t pull their lifeless arms out from under them and spread them and try to pin their hands to the ground (especially when their wing span is obviously much wider than your own considering he was a big scary giant)..you would pull his arms behind his back so he could not push up off the ground….busted busted busted

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @ Jo,

          I think GZ was checking for a possible weapon on his “suspect” because he knew he was in deep, deep guacamole after shooting the “suspect” and was desperate for a good alibi.

          Had Trayvon ACTUALLY been armed, this would put a whole ‘nother complexion on this case.

          I posit this based on the inner sweatshirt bloodstain caused by GZ. Don’t forget that 5 minutes earlier GZ was claiming “He’s got his hand in his waistband” trying to get Sean NEN-311 to think that Trayvon was armed.

          (D’ja think that little exchange with Sean REMINDED Zimmerman that he, himself, was armed at that time???)

          And yes, I think he was checking for a possible exit wound – again with how he was going to craft his alibi if there was an exit wound.

          To me, Jo, all that stuff was “all about the alibi.”

      • jo says:

        hi PMom, yes he probably looking for anything that could help justify what he did. There are so many ways to look at it it just gets confuzzling. I was pointing out that he knew Trayvon wasn’t trying to kill him. If he was he would have produced this imaginary weapon gz thought he had…so if GZ was looking for a weapon he had to KNOW that Trayvon wasn’t intending to kill him. Hence GZ was the aggressor. Haha, i know what i’m trying to say but don’t think the words are coming out right lol

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Jo, you’re doing just fine.

          I see what you mean – GZ was the aggressor and confident in that, especially since he had a gun.

          GZ was once required to take Anger Management classes (didn’t do so). I think he flipped out in a rage that Trayvon didn’t immediately confess to some local crime and agree to be “apprehended.”

          There was the immediate fall by the dogwalk – I expect GZ grabbed Trayvon’s shirts a soon as he asked “What are you doing around here?” and they both fell. GZ did not expect that.

          It turned into an on-the-ground struggle, and this infuriated Zimmerman. Kid started screaming, not “confessing,” which is what George was looking for. GZ realized this wasn’t going to look good when the cops arrived.

          So he killed him.

          Then started making up his alibi.

      • pat deadder says:

        Oh my PiranahMom It is just just so hard to imagine what a conniving pri k he was and still is.

      • jo says:

        i agree with all you just said PMom except i don’t think he killed Trayvon to stop him talking, he’s not that smart, but he is an arrogant hot head so i think when trayvon broke free from their tussle in the grass gz lost it and pulled the trigger in a fit of rage that this kid was going to get away.

        Lets face it, jnr and the nuthouse can scream as loud as they want that the photo’s of Trayvon were too cute and innocent looking, but we all know porge would never have tried to intimidate someone he was actually scared of….i bet he took lunch money from the small kids in school too.

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Jo,

          I hear what you are saying, Jo …

          “i agree with all you just said PMom except i don’t think he killed Trayvon to stop him talking, he’s not that smart, but he is an arrogant hot head so i think when trayvon broke free from their tussle in the grass gz lost it and pulled the trigger in a fit of rage that this kid was going to get away. ”

          Jo, George has a checkered history for “smarts” but he is certainly a schemer where his own interests lie.

          One of the issues that still stops me in my tracks is: how could Zimmerman, simply as a human being, endure hearing Trayvon’s screams, so PLEADING, so heart-rending, SO LONG, and still go through with shooting him?

          Let me give you a parallel – have you ever had a sensitive tooth drilled by a dentist – WITHOUT some form of painkiller? Now, next time you hear that 911 call with Trayvon screaming for over 40 seconds – imagine being under the drill all that time – with no pain blocker.

          Or putting your hand in boiling water.

          40 sends is a LONG time to endure intense pain. 40 seconds is PLENTY of time to recognize this is another human being and you should NOT kill him.

          But George Zimmerman’s attitude was “Fuck it! I’m now in such deep shit – and this kid CAUSED IT ALL – so I’m going to kill him to SAVE MY ASS, and besides, he’s Black – so nobody’s going to do anything about it, and I’ve got connections with the Police Department, and I’ll just say it was self defense, and I’ll get away with it.” BANG!

          And then Trayvon was dead.

          Jo, Trayvon was never ABLE to “break free from their tussle in the grass.” NEVER! That is why he was screaming so desperately. He was pinned to the ground by Zimmermann. UNABLE to escape and save himself.

          That is how Zimmerman could position the muzzle of the gun SO PRECISELY to (a) avoid injuring his own hand, and (b) drill Trayvon RIGHT THROUGH THE HEART with the EXPLODING BULLET – a slug of lead a HALF-INCH WIDE that RIPPED OPEN TRAYVON’S HEART AND LUNG.

          And he felt justified in doing it.

          Because Trayvon had not, in George’s opinion, ceded to Zimmerman’s “authority.” What fucking “authority” did Zimmerman have? Not one Goddamned molecule of authority! And Zimmerman was so SELF-CENTERED that it never occurred to him that he SHOULD have explained what he, Zimmerman, was doing out there in the dark, ACCOSTING THIS KID.

          AND, he KNEW it was a kid!

          As in, to Sean at NEN311: “Geez, I don’t wanna give my address. I don’t know where THIS KID is at.”

          “THIS KID” … got it?

          Go into your shower with the water on, in full force, Jo. Play the radio at highest volume, to try to mask the sound. Wear a waterproof watch with a second hand. Turn thev water to hot – hotter than you can really stand.. Then scream DESPERATELY at the top of your lungs, at your highest and most desperate volume – and sustain that for 40 long heart-rending seconds.

          Then towel off, and think to yourself, “Hmmm – did George have time to consider – and reconsider – shooting this kid?”

          OR: “Did George spend that time to center the shot to be sure ‘this kid’ would never survive TO TELL THE TRUTH?”

          Then let me know if you think this guy simply “lost it” … and pulled the trigger.

          Not being argumentative, Jo. Love your writing and your analyses. Just want you to put a physical experience into your own re-creation of those final seconds for Trayvon – the final seconds that Zimmerman CONTROLLED – to see if killing Trayvon was a DECISION by Zimmerman … or not.

        • Xena says:

          @jo

          i agree with all you just said PMom except i don’t think he killed Trayvon to stop him talking,

          GZ told Hannity why he killed Trayvon. He said he was terrorized thinking that the arriving cops would see him holding the gun, and shoot him.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “GZ told Hannity why he killed Trayvon. He said he was terrorized thinking that the arriving cops would see him holding the gun, and shoot him.”

            So he solved that problem by NOT leaving the gun in the holster to begin with?

            According to the transcript what he actually said was

            “… I knew that I had discharged my firearm, and I was scared, nervous. I also thought the police were going to come and see me with the firearm and shoot me.”

            implying that he expected the police to arrive on the scene knowing a shot had been fired and see him with a firearm, even if holstered, and possibly shoot him before he could explain the circumstances to them.

            In line with that thinking, if he actually was in danger of getting shot by the police just for having a gun in his possession when they arrived, which he apparently believed, he might have been in danger from them even if he never drew his gun out of the holster and the struggle was still going on, but firing the gun, and the police knowing a shot had been fired, would not have been the way to reduce that danger.

            unitron

          • Xena says:

            @Unitron

            “… I knew that I had discharged my firearm, and I was scared, nervous. I also thought the police were going to come and see me with the firearm and shoot me.”

            implying that he expected the police to arrive on the scene knowing a shot had been fired and see him with a firearm, even if holstered, and possibly shoot him before he could explain the circumstances to them.

            BULL!! GZ said he thought the police were going to come and “SEE” him “WITH” the gun. That implies he was holding it. The cops don’t have x-ray vision to see a gun in a holster because GZ’s holster was on his butt under his jacket. He even had to tell Smith where it was.

            Your opinion is contrary to “conceal carry.” If the cops could see GZ’s “holstered gun,” then so could Trayvon.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            So while the gun was still holstered and unfired he was afraid of the police shooting him because he had a gun, and the solution to that was to take it out and fire it?

            Because if the cops heard gunfire, or heard over their radios about reports of gunfire, they would assume that the period of danger was over?

            Cops use their own guns to shoot people with guns to keep those people from using those guns if the cops think that’s the only way to keep them from using them.

            Using the gun is not a way to convince the cops that you aren’t going to use it again.

            Even an idiot like Zimmerman is not going to think that there’s a danger that just having a gun is going to get him shot by the police but that actually shooting someone with it is going to reduce that danger.

            And I suspect even Officer Smith would eventually have been able to locate Zimmerman’s holstered gun on his own, but putting your hands in the air or on your head and telling him where the gun is reduces the chance that he’s going to misinterpret something you do and shoot you.

            unitron

          • Xena says:

            @Unitron. Oh no. Don’t start with the stupid questions. Stay with GZ’s statement to Hannity.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “Stay with GZ’s statement to Hannity.”

            I was staying with your misinterpretation of it, and pointing out why it’s a misinterpretation.

            There is no logic to “I’m afraid the police will shoot me because I have a gun, so I’ll actually fire the gun and that’s sure to put them at ease about it.”

            unitron

          • Xena says:

            @Unitron. You take GZ’s statement to Hannity, re-interpret it illogically, then when I ask you to stay with what GZ said, you re-interpret it again to agree with your argument for what you imply I said.

            Just in case you forgot, here is what GZ said:

            “I also thought the police were going to come and see me with the firearm and shoot me. I mean, I was terrified.”

            You argue that GZ said he was terrified that the police would arrive and see him with his holstered gun. What does conceal carry mean to you? That the holstered gun is not concealed?

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            Someone else said

            “i agree with all you just said PMom except i don’t think he killed Trayvon to stop him talking, ”

            to which you replied

            “GZ told Hannity why he killed Trayvon. He said he was terrorized thinking that the arriving cops would see him holding the gun, and shoot him.”

            So someone else says they don’t think Zimmerman fired for the reason PiranhaMom gave, which was to silence Trayvon, and then you say Zimmerman told Hannity the reason why he fired.

            Am I to understand that your next sentence was not the reason which you think he gave Hannity, but was just an unrelated something else you threw in there?

            Because if Zimmerman actually, intentionally, gave Hannity the reason for shooting anywhere in that interview, it was for the reason of self-defense.

            If he supposedly let the “real” reason slip out at some point, claiming that being afraid of being shot by the police was that reason makes no sense. There’s no way shooting Martin reduces or eliminates the chance of the police shooting Zimmerman, in fact it does the opposite, and even Zimmerman is smart enough to know that.

            Maybe there’s a “real” reason why he shot Martin, and maybe he let it slip out during the interview with Hannity, but fear of being shot by the police is not that reason.

            unitron

          • racerrodig says:

            Anothretr 1 hour and 7minutes of slap a Zidiot Day.

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig

            Anothretr 1 hour and 7minutes of slap a Zidiot Day.

            I’m in another time zone — there’s 2 more hours. 🙂

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Uni.

            Uni, old buddy, sometimes you’re bright and informative, and sometimes you can be a Chia Pet.

            What “struggle” between Zimmerman and Trayvon could Zimmerman expect the cops to arrive and see?

            He had that kid pinned to the ground – long enough to carefully aim, fire, and macerate the kid’s heart and lungs.

            Like so much dog meat.

            It was a wet, soggy night, even when rain was not falling.
            I expect humidity was 99%

            Sound travels over far distances when it’s humid.

            My bet is that Zimmerman heard the sirens arriving.
            Jenna had already called 911.

            Zimmerman knew he had less than a minute to SILENCE the kid who would accuse him of detaining him illegally. Forget about his hopes of being the heroic crime-stopper. Zimmerman would have been the laughingstock of SPD for his inept attempt to “collar” this “suspect.”

            And then a stretch in the slammer, when the truth came out.

            Geez, Uni – a skinny kid, at that. What the hell kind of macho cojones does it take, to grab a kid like that and take him down?

            Nuthin’ Well, maybe the size of raisins.

            Do you want to know why I am convinced Zimmerman had Trayvon Martin pinned, unable to escape, and right where Zimmerman needed him, to take that one precise shot that would send this kid to Valhalla?

            Listen to the 911 tape – Jenna’s tape. Hear any wavering in the screaming? Shifting of tone and volume?

            Naaah – that kid was immobilized. 207 lbs, of pissed-off thug pinned him to the ground, because “The Zimmerman Dream of Hero Medal” was fast retreating.

            Zimmerman knew the cops were enroute.

            He had no need to kill this kid, if he had any concerns for his safety.

            On the other hand, if he had to answer for assaulting a juvenile …
            well, that was going to be a problem.

            But Zimmerman had a cheap, simple solution.

            One single 9mm hollow-point bullet.

            He used it.

            Then, holstered his weapon and put hands on head. Standard “back off” signal to cops.

            He was now going to work his Old Boy Network …

            And for a few weeks, yessiree, he did.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            Those other reasons for killing Martin may be reasons for killing Martin, but have nothing to do with the original claim that his fear of getting shot by the police is the reason he shot.

            If he’s afraid that having a gun might cause the police to shoot him, even he is not stupid enough to think that he can lessen that risk by actually using the gun.

            If you say that he shot Trayvon because of reason “A”, you do not prove that by saying he shot Trayvon because of reasons “B” through however many other ones you want to throw in there that do not have anything to do with reason “A”.

            unitron

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @ Uni,

            Babe, recap “Reason A” and Reason B” for me please.

            Do you want me to put stock in Zimmerman’s claim that he was afraid of being seen with a gun – and the cops would just shoot him?

            All he had to do is put the barrel in his mouth.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “GZ told Hannity why he killed Trayvon. He said he was terrorized thinking that the arriving cops would see him holding the gun, and shoot him.”

            Assuming that those are not two completely unrelated sentences, and that the second is supposed to support or explain the assertion made in the first, i.e., the first sentence says he gave a reason and the second sentence states what that reason is, it does not do so in a way that makes any sense.

            If he’s afraid of getting shot by the police, shooting someone else does nothing to prevent that or lessen the chance of it.

            And a whole bunch of other reasons why he shot do not make what is said in that second sentence the reason why he shot.

            Having the police arrive without there having previously been a shot fired actually lessens the chance that they would shoot him, therefore it would be counter-productive for him to shoot if his only worry was not being shot by the police, and even Zimmerman is capable of realizing that.

            If the question is “Why did Zimmerman shoot?”, the answer is not because he was afraid of being shot by the police afterwards.

            The existance of other reasons for him to shoot does not change that.

            unitron

          • Xena says:

            @unitron

            he’s afraid of getting shot by the police, shooting someone else does nothing to prevent that or lessen the chance of it.

            Why did GZ said he was afraid that the cops might shoot him?

            Going by GZ’s story, at what point did GZ have the gun out and at that point, would the cops have had a clear shot to shoot GZ?

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Uni,

            Uni, when Zimmerman was on Fox with Hannity and gave his reason (below) for shooting Trayvon, this was not a sworn statement.

            Do you therefore, in line with your analysis below, believe that Zimmerman was lying to Hannity and the viewers, when he made that statement?

            (And thanks for your diligent recap, below.)

            “GZ told Hannity why he killed Trayvon. He said he was terrorized thinking that the arriving cops would see him holding the gun, and shoot him.”

            Per Uni: “Assuming that those are not two completely unrelated sentences, and that the second is supposed to support or explain the assertion made in the first, i.e., the first sentence says he gave a reason and the second sentence states what that reason is, it does not do so in a way that makes any sense.

            “If he’s afraid of getting shot by the police, shooting someone else does nothing to prevent that or lessen the chance of it.

            “And a whole bunch of other reasons why he shot do not make what is said in that second sentence the reason why he shot.

            “Having the police arrive without there having previously been a shot fired actually lessens the chance that they would shoot him, therefore it would be counter-productive for him to shoot if his only worry was not being shot by the police, and even Zimmerman is capable of realizing that.

            “If the question is “Why did Zimmerman shoot?”, the answer is not because he was afraid of being shot by the police afterwards.

            “The existence of other reasons for him to shoot does not change that.

            “unitron”

            (Only change I made was to re-spell existence. s/PMom)

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “Uni, when Zimmerman was on Fox with Hannity and gave his reason (below) for shooting Trayvon, this was not a sworn statement.”

            Sworn or unsworn, lying or not, nowhere does he give fear of being shot by the police as his reason for shooting.

            Yes, he mentions fear of being shot by the police, but not as his reason for shooting, any more than his mentioning going for groceries is the reason he gave for shooting.

            unitron

          • Xena says:

            @unitron

            Sworn or unsworn, lying or not, nowhere does he give fear of being shot by the police as his reason for shooting.

            When would the cops see GZ with the gun and shoot him? That was the reason he stated that he was terrified, right?

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “When would the cops see GZ with the gun and shoot him? That was the reason he stated that he was terrified, right?”

            That was the reason he gave for being scared AFTER he had already fired and gotten up off of the ground.

            “HANNITY: The one witness that you first met, the guy with the cell phone that I mentioned said — asked about your demeanor right after the shooting. He was the first person I guess on the scene?

            ZIMMERMAN: Yes, sir.

            HANNITY: The first person you saw. And he said you looked like you had been, quote, “butt whooped,” like you had had a fight and you were asking call my wife, just tell my wife. But, you know, he was acting like it was nothing. Is that how you were feeling at the time? Because you didn’t find out, you said, until later you said that Trayvon had passed away.

            ZIMMERMAN: No, I knew that I had discharged my firearm, and I was scared, nervous. I also thought the police were going to come and see me with the firearm and shoot me. I mean, I was terrified.”

            Hannity is asking him about AFTER the shooting. Not before. Not during. After.

            For whatever reason he shot, it is chronologically impossible for the reason to be the way he felt afterwards.

            Cause comes before effect, not after.

            unitron

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Uni

            OK, Uni, I see Zimmerman claiming a three-fer here: simultaneously (1) he “knew he had discharged his firearm” (wannabe cop talk for “shot the gun;” (2) didn’t know he had killed “this kid” (as he refers to Martin when talking to Sean @ NEN311, and, (3) was scared the cops would shoot him, seeing him with a gun.”

            So … on the BS-meter I give him 1,000 for claiming he didn’t know he’d killed the kid (what did he think he was shooting from the Kel-Tek? 9mm Gummi-Bears?) and he thought the cops would shoot him, seeing he had a gun in his hand.

            No, the cops would not shoot him (along with unknown bystanders). They’d yell, “Freeze, asshole! Drop the gun! NOW” And he would do it. All that crap about being afraid of the cops is just trying to muster some sympathy for His Dumbness here.

            So-o-o ssssscared …

            (Was his fourth simultaneous thought that he’d wet his pants?)

            I give him a one-out-of three on the truth-o-meter: he knew he shot the gun. Probably because the recoil slapped him in the lip and made it bleed

            BIG COSMIC QUESTION for ya’ here, Babe:

            WHY DO WE CARE how he felt?

            And how do you think this self-popped popcorn is going to give Zimmerman a “fair trial?”

          • Xena says:

            @PiranhaMom. This started with Unitron because I said GZ told Hannity why he shot Trayvon, and I quoted what GZ said:

            “I also thought the police were going to come and see me with the firearm and shoot me. I mean, I was terrified.”

            So, this isn’t what GZ felt as much as what he was doing when he felt terrified. I’ve asked Unitron several times now that according to GZ’s story for when he shot Trayvon, when would the cops see him with the gun and shoot him? Would the cops have a clear shot at GZ during the time he had the gun aimed at Trayvon, with (according to GZ) Trayvon on top of him?

            So, you are correct that had the cops arrived while GZ was aiming the gun at Trayvon, that they would have shouted “Freeze, asshole! Drop the gun! NOW”

            We know that GZ mixes truth with lies. We also know that his stories are not consistent. Remember too that GZ also said the following to Hannity:

            ZIMMERMAN: And I was yelling so that — I believed that the police officer was there and they just couldn’t me. So, I was yelling in the hopes that they were in the vicinity and they would come when they heard me yelling.

            http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2012/07/18/exclusive-george-zimmerman-breaks-silence-hannity?page=4

            At one point, GZ says that he was yelling for the cops to find him. Later, he says that he was terrified that the cops would arrive and find him with the gun and shoot him.

            IOWs, when I wrote that GZ told Hannity why he killed Trayvon, and asked Unitron that question, I’m looking at much more than that one statement made by GZ. If we add the fact that Jenna’s 911 call captured the screams AND GZ cursing at Trayvon, we reach the most reasonable conclusion that GZ was “terrified” that the cops would arrive finding him holding the gun on Trayvon while Trayvon was screaming.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            Xena,

            GZ is so FULL of it!

            The ONLY way the cops could see Zimmerman with the gun in his hand is if Zimmerman was ON TOP.

            And he WAS.

            You smartly pointed out Zimmerman’s SWORN testimony to Singleton.

            He SWORE he holstered the gun after firing. (Didn’t give us a rundown of all the calisthenics needed to get it back in the holster without shooting himself in the ass.)

            That holster was between his ass and the grass, Coulda’ shot himself in the glutes if that whole fabrication were true.

            Thanks for all your work on this, Xena.

          • Xena says:

            @PiranhaMom

            The ONLY way the cops could see Zimmerman with the gun in his hand is if Zimmerman was ON TOP.

            And he WAS.

            Or standing, but as you have pointed out, not while on his back.

          • racerrodig says:

            “He SWORE he holstered the gun after firing”

            And in his “reenactment” he says the gun was over there and points to his right, indicating he laid it on the ground.

            He can’t get lies straight from one minute to the next.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            None of which turns the reason for “when” into the reason for “why”.

            You offered a reason for why. Jo replied with a different reason for why.

            Xena replied by saying Zimmerman told Hannity why, and then tries to turn what might be interpreted as a reason for “when” into a reason for “why”.

            But the reason for “when” requires that the reason for “why” already exists. It is not a reason for “why” all by itself.

            unitron

          • PiranhaMom says:

            Uni,

            I sense a pattern here. You’ll do anything not to have to go out and cut the grass.

            You’re giving me a pollen attack and I’m not even allergic.

            Pass the Gummi-Bears. I need a placebo for all this.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “I sense a pattern here. You’ll do anything not to have to go out and cut the grass.”

            Unlike the shrubbery at TRATL, apparently there *is* room behind ours for someone to hide and spy on me.

            : – )

            an “amused in a paranoid sort of way” unitron

          • racerrodig says:

            Yoo guys are allowing a troll to darg this to a new low in majoring in the minore and applying logic to illogical minds.

          • Xena says:

            @unitron
            I asked:

            “When would the cops see GZ with the gun and shoot him? That was the reason he stated that he was terrified, right?”

            You responded:

            That was the reason he gave for being scared AFTER he had already fired and gotten up off of the ground.

            That contradicts what GZ told Singleton. He told her that after firing the shot, he holstered his weapon and jumped on Trayvon’s back. So, why would GZ be terrified that the cops would see the gun after he shot Trayvon since he had holstered it and it was concealed?

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            unitron says:

            Assuming that those are not two completely unrelated sentences, and that the second is supposed to support or explain the assertion made in the first, i.e., the first sentence says he gave a reason and the second sentence states what that reason is, it does not do so in a way that makes any sense

            So there you are… Standing in front of us and holding up your red “STOP” paddle, telling us that we’re not trying to extract the good common sense from what George has said?!? Is that it?!

            Well, then do we stand rebuked on that account?
            Or do you?

            HERE, YOU BE THE JUDGE:

          • racerrodig says:

            tron is making it up as he goes along. Fogen NEVER said he was terrorized about jack shit. His stated to the effect it would not look good….a far cry from terrorized. But that’s not just me this time, it’s the fact.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “Fogen NEVER said he was terrorized…”

            No, he used the word “terrified” in talking to Hannity, or at least that’s what’s in the written transcript.

            (I’d really rather not have to sit here and listen to the Hannity interview if it can be avoided)

            But Xena did use the word “terrorized” in this comment

            https://frederickleatherman.com/2013/04/07/did-mark-omara-advise-the-hoa-to-settle-the-fulton-martin-lawsuit/#comment-99874

            and the only times the word appeared in my comments was when I was quoting her.

            unitron

          • Xena says:

            @Unitron. Since you have made it known on another blog that you think we (as in everyone here) do not use logic, I deem your comments and intended actions, as verbal vandalism.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes, but my point was, how in the world can he have the temerity to ask us to look for the good sense in what GZ is saying, when GZ shows he’s capable of making no sense at all? That’s like presenting people with page after page of randomly struck letters, and chastising them for not being able to find a Shakespearean play in there.

          • racerrodig says:

            He’s a full fledged member of The Zidiot Nation. He claims he “…escalated it..” Escalated what…..Oh, more lies, misinformation, distention and hero worship for Fogen. He now claims a quote of his is not.

            But then at least he’s on the job making sure this is fair for Fogen….and Fogen alone. Spells trolling Zidiot to me.

          • Xena says:

            @Unitron

            If he’s afraid that having a gun might cause the police to shoot him, even he is not stupid enough to think that he can lessen that risk by actually using the gun.

            When would GZ be afraid that the arriving cops would see him with the gun?

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “When would GZ be afraid that the arriving cops would see him with the gun?”

            If, in some roundabout, cryptic fashion you were trying to say that he shot before the cops got there because he wouldn’t have the chance to do so safely after they got there, then why not just come right out and say that?

            Although that’s still only the answer to “why shoot at that particular moment” and not to “why shoot at all”.

            unitron

          • Xena says:

            @unitron I asked:

            “When would GZ be afraid that the arriving cops would see him with the gun?”

            You responded

            If, in some roundabout, cryptic fashion you were trying to say that …

            So your answer for when would GZ be afraid that the arriving cops would see him with the gun is that I’m “trying to say” something that I didn’t ask you.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            Okay, fine.

            “When would GZ be afraid that the arriving cops would see him with the gun?”

            Not until they actually arrived.

            unitron

          • Xena says:

            @unitron
            I asked:

            “When would GZ be afraid that the arriving cops would see him with the gun?”

            You answered:

            Not until they actually arrived.

            Intentional efforts of having a reading comprehension problem conveys that you cannot answer the question.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            You asked “when”, when you should have asked “under what circumstances”.

            If he was afraid that having the gun would get him shot by the police, does that mean he’d be even more afraid that having it in his hand would get him shot by the police than if it was in his holster? If he thought it through that much, probably so.

            Does that prove that he shot Trayvon so that he could get it re-holstered before the police arrived? No, it does not.

            If that were his only reason for shooting, then might as well ask why he didn’t shoot the guy with the cell phone camera. He could have done that and gotten the gun back in the holster before the cops got there.

            You can claim he shot when he did because of wanting to have the gun holstered by the time the cops got there, but that’s just a reason for the “when” of the shot. It is not a reason for the “why”.

            unitron

          • Xena says:

            @Unitron

            You asked “when”, when you should have asked “under what circumstances”.

            You couldn’t even quote me correctly to fault find. So your answer is to be the sentence structure police, and then throw ca-ca against the wall hoping something will stick because you cannot answer the question. When would the arriving cops see GZ with the gun?

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “When would the arriving cops see GZ with the gun?”

            If he had the gun in his hand when the police arrived, then they probably would have seen the gun.

            (if holstered they might, depending on the jacket length, have noticed the bulge in his waistband and suspected it was a gun as well)

            But that does not turn the reason for “when” he fired into the reason for “why” he fired.

            If he fired when he did because he thought he wouldn’t be able to later, that still requires him to already have had a reason to fire in the first place.

            PiranhaMom basically said that he killed Trayvon to keep Trayvon from telling the police it was all George’s fault. Jo disagreed and said it was because of rage that Trayvon was about to get away.

            Both of those are “why”s.

            Then you come along with

            “GZ told Hannity why he killed Trayvon.”

            but follow up with something that at best only addresses the reason for “when” and not the reason for “why”.

            If he needed to shoot at that particular time, that presupposes a pre-existing need to shoot at all.

            “GZ told Hannity why he killed Trayvon.”

            makes it sound like the next thing you say is going to reveal that “why” which he told Hannity.

            But the next thing you said only addressed, at best, the reason for “when” and not the reason for “why”.

            The opportunity to shoot being the last opportunity to shoot does not all by itself create a motive to shoot.

            Like I said, he could have shot the guy with the cell phone and holstered his gun before the cops saw it, so if he didn’t shoot him he must have not had a reason to shoot him other than the timing.

            In the case of Trayvon Martin, apparently he did have a reason to shoot him, whatever that reason was, but that reason had to already exist before “because he couldn’t do it later” comes into play.

            unitron

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Xena.

            Cops would see George holding the Kel-Tek, right?

            I guess Osterman had not yet advanced Zimmerman to Stage Two in his gun-handling course, right?

            “Putting the gun back in the holster.”

            First, he had to learn,

            “It’s not my holster,
            it’s not his holster,
            it’s THE holster.”

            Damn, that curriculum’s tough!

            You expect some Afro-Peruvian to learn Haiku?

          • Xena says:

            @PiranhaMom. Well you see, “The” gun was easy for GZ to remember because factually, it wasn’t his gun at all. It was registered to ShelLIE. I can only imagine the arguments they had when ShelLIE told GZ not to take her gun and he retorted it’s not your gun. It’s not my gun. It’s THE gun.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Xena,

            Then after the little recitation about THE gun about HER gun, Shellie whupped George upside the mouth & schnozz and said “It’s not MY frypan (BAM!); it’s not YOUR frypan (BAM!); it’s THE frypan,(BAM-BAM-BAM!)

            And so George had to go out and shoot an unarmed Black juvenile, to calm his nerves …

          • Xena says:

            LOL@PiranhaMom. Do you think ShelLIE owned a frying pan? LOL! It was probably the dog’s collar — the kind with the spikes in it.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Xena,

            ” Do you think ShelLIE owned a frying pan? LOL! It was probably the dog’s collar — the kind with the spikes in it.”

            Xena, now why would Shellie risk her best jewelry?

          • Xena says:

            @PiranhaMom

            Xena, now why would Shellie risk her best jewelry?

            (Gulp) LMAO!

      • jo says:

        hi PMom, me again. i can see what you are saying and if it can be proved that gz did in fact shoot trayvon while his back was to the ground then that is mind blowing stuff. Isn’t it crazy how so many people saw something but in the instant the gun went off no one was watching, it’s so sad.

        Well you could be right of course i guess it’s just always played out in my head differently. They hit the ground because gz was trying to restrain trayvon (as you said, under what authority, who the hell does he think he is, this was Trayvons back yard, his residence on the night, NOT gz’s). I thought GZ tried to restrain him, in the struggle gz falls to the ground pulling trayvon with him, hence trayvon being on top when john saw them, they wrestle a bit, gz trying to continue to hold trayvon and he trying to get away from this creep.

        As trayvon loosens the grip and tries to get up and get away gz decides it’s not going to happen, how dare this kid not respect my authority, i was gonna catch this thug for the police and be a hero, grabs his clothing in the chest area and pulls him back and BANG, that’ll teach you punk. I guess either way there is some sort of thought process going through his brain. When i said “lost it” i didn’t mean for one second that he was not in control of what he was doing, i mean he lost his temper because his imagined authority was questioned, more of an ego thing, as in “you are beneath me, i am better than you, do as i say” sort of thing. I think he picked Trayvon because he thought he could intimidate him and get the better of him. If Trayvon was scary looking he would have stayed in his damn car. He would have still called the cops because there was a black person in his territory but wouldn’t of dared confront him. If only he just pissed on lamp posts like other dogs do to mark their territory.

        anyway i guess no one knows yet, i am looking forward to hearing the prosecutions theory, it might be completely different again, but either way we do know what happened in the lead up at that is enough to tell anyone that it was not self defense…not by a long shot.

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @ Jo – you have caught the essence of Zimmerman’s “character” in your splendid account:

          “If Trayvon was scary-looking he would have stayed in his damn car.”

          Sing it, Sister!

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Well for one thing BDLR says he knows which way Trayvon traveled to get home and that Trayvon actually made it to his house, Tzar posted the relevant video and I added it to the master revisable timeline http://tinyurl.com/bn5e4xe
          near the bottom you’ll find it under her name as a collected post.
          That has to end the story about GZ’s innocence hands down.

          Elsewhere there’s a claim by BDLR, in some other court video, that someone was a witness to the whole thing and that the SP is in touch with them or some such. MOM knows about this witness because he’s got the discovery, funny he doesn’t even bother to ask to depose this witness, eh? Instead he makeum heap big issue with witness who only hear soneting. (heehee there’s those mistakes again creeping into my work:-)

          Well, George will never have to worry about rent, or where his next meal is coming from, could that be the good life about which he and Shelly spoke earlier? :LOL:

      • parrot says:

        @Xena
        @Piranha

        You ladies KICK MAJOR A**. . .

        • cielo62 says:

          @parrot,Xena and pirhanamom- I guffawed out loud! Spouse asked about it and both busted up!! “Finest jewelry”! “THE frypan” !!

          Sent from my iPod

    • racerrodig says:

      He can take a plea and maintain he did nothing wrong. i believe you have it as far as his getting on top story, since several witnesses say he stood straight up and walked away. Trayvon’s hands, for the record were under his torso, eliminating any “I put them out in a”Y” to make sure he was no longer a danger to my Phat Lying Ass”

      The witness “Mr. Flashlight” stated as much also. He stated he asked what are you doing as FogenPhoole was walking toward him. Fogen said he was kneeling and asked him to help subdue “the suspect”

    • Judge Nelson cannot accept a guilty plea unless there is a factual basis to support it.

      I don’t think the defendant is going to plead guilty.

    • ic2fools says:

      Thank you Professor I have been checking periodically today your new post.

      I have a question. If Fogen does take a plea bargain, will States’ evidence against him be made public?. It surely would connect the dots for us who have followed so closely. Also giving the Martain Family more information of what happened that night.

  3. fauxmccoy says:

    fred — just an FYI… if you check your email, i have submitted my article on internet security. thanks!

  4. colin black says:

    I have a feeling in my water that all this money settlement hints of up to two million dollars ect.
    With further pockets to be cleaned out this is the prelude to the end.

    I think behind doors its all done an dusted there will be no trial no truth re foggagges depraved actions laid bare before the world.

    He just couldnt handle that or take the chance of L W P an neither could his attorney.

    An attorneys job is to advocate for his client an get him the best deal possable.
    Not get them aquited especialy if they are guilty of the alleged crime.

    I beleive West an O Mara have had the come to Jesus talk shortly before they dropped there April date for the S Y G motion hearing mini trial to dissmiss all charges.

    If M O M is consulting with the H O A an advised them to settle its because theres a plea deal signed sealed an delivered an also signed of on by Trayvons Parents an Family.

    Foggagge pleads guilty an gets 25 Years all charges against Shellie droped or a garanteed sentance of probation,,

    All this nonsense an farce like buliding roads to no where re Crump ect has been a smoke screen to deflect whats happening behind closed doors.
    Foggage kops

    25 an walks after 15 max………. I hope Im wrong but Id make the most out of airyasses trial as foggagge has cheated people all his life you can bet he going to cheat us out of a trial.
    An an admission of what an assehole he realy is.

    PS Magret Thatcher has died R I P Maggie.

    • Tzar says:

      I really hope there is a trial, the killer and his supporters need to be exposed

    • Trained Observer says:

      Colin I loved it when the Baroness went steaming off to the Falklands with the QE2 transformed into a troop ship.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Colin — I truly hope you’re wrong, but you may well be right.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Also wouldn’t you be thinking “35 and walks after … “, being as how Trayvon was a minor, which ought to get Fogen an extra 10?

    • ic2fools says:

      @colin black
      If that is the case and Fogen does plea out, then would States’ evidence be available to the public. Not to sound crass but I wanted this to go to trial releasing the evidence compiled against Fogen answersing many of our questions.

      I remember last year Omar introduced West saying: ‘When I get into trouble, I call him’. Apologies I have been searching for the video of that interview and have not been able to find it. Plea bargaining is West speciality. First thing crossed my mind when I read about him, he was added just for that to plea bargain.

      Hope the State takes this all the way to trial for him to get maximum time for murdering Trayvon.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Plea bargaining may well be the specialty of Don “I’m telling you for the third time” West, since he hasn’t shown any particular astute qualities in front of Judge Nelson thus far.

      • cielo62 says:

        Ic2fools- IIRC in Florida, 35 years is 35 years. Like a federal prison, what you get is what you serve.

        Sent from my iPod

    • Jun says:

      I personally feel if they do a plea deal, it will be for 35 or 40 years

      Depending on the plea, they may just release everything to the public as closure

      I think it is a good thing in a way because it is easier on the victim’s family because they can get some closure and just mourn, without having to deal with the nonsense of lawyers and sleezebags

      • Cercando Luce says:

        IS it easier on the victim’s family? A plea bargain leaves them at the whim of the whackos who have dogged them since this incident happened, and therefore does not provide any closure, but makes things worse. (The world will never hear the end of “doubled back to attack George who was heroically protecting his neighborhood “) IMO a trial should air the many crimes, sins, errors and negligencies that characterize this case, and might serve to deflate the lies broadcast for many months by the defendant’s attorneys. The more I think about it, the more a plea bargain endangers the victim’s family and friends by failing to nullify false narratives propagated by the defendant, his own family, his attorneys, Mark Osterman, and supporters.

        • I don’t believe the fogen is going to plead guilty, so the case will go to trial.

        • racerrodig says:

          That’s a major league dilemma. if he takes a plea, which I doubt he will, being FogenPhoole and all, does this satisfy the state and the Martins. Remember, it’s the State of FL vs PhatAssFogenPhoole, not the Martins vs …..

          Many times the state will take a plea against the wishes of the victims family or the victim. We see this all the time. Personally I can’t wait to see him testify…….and just when we thought we’d seen it all, along comes FogenPhoole.

          The best part of him taking a plea is how his brother handles it.
          Damn Sam……where do we buy tickets for that one !!!

        • cielo62 says:

          Cercando Luce- you are 100% correct. A public trial will lay bare the public lies told and retold by the Zidiot Nation. Also, I see no reason for the prosecution to even entertain a plea deal. They got GZ dead to rights.

          Sent from my iPod

      • Jun says:

        How is it not easier for the victim’s family?

        All this media circus and drama is terrible, to have, on top of having a loved one murdered

        If the defendant pleads guilty, it is over and done with, no more nonsense

        The whole issue will fade in obscurity and Fogen will become Fogen

        The Fogen Gang Member Troll Unity will be forgotten

        It’s concluded

      • cielo62 says:

        Jun- anything over 20 years and you can practically guarantee GZ won’t be leaving by walking. He’ll piss off the wrong gang and that will be the end of sociopath Georgie.

        Sent from my iPod

        • racerrodig says:

          I can’t speak from direct experience, never having been in trouble with the law, arrested and needless to say, did jail time, but I have seen it on TV and stayed at a Holiday Inn !!. Well, and a friend who did time, but Fogen really won’t fit in with any gang.

          He certainly has “Pre – Pissed Off” the white supremacists, you know, being “Afro – Peruvian” The Hispanics all have a soft spot for kids…..cross them off as well. The Neo – Nazi’s…..not with a name like Zimmerman.

          The bloods, the crips…..Naaaaaa. Then of course there is the Brothers……now he claims to be Afro- XXXXXXX. My bet is they really won’t care about that very much.

          Yep, it sucks to be Fogen about now.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Racer –
            @Cielo –

            Re: “The bloods, the crips…..Naaaaaa. Then of course there is the Brothers……now he claims to be Afro- XXXXXXX. My bet is they really won’t care about that very much.”

            They got a pokey up at Maccu Pichu?

            Could we get a prisoner swap – we give them Zimmerman and they send us 1,000 vicunas?

          • racerrodig says:

            Some Senator may be interested in that…..Politics makes strange bedfellows.

          • cielo62 says:

            PirhanaMom- do you know how much crap 1,000 vicuñas would create? Hmmm… Almost as much as GZ and smells better! Ok, let’s take the vicuñas!

            Sent from my iPod

          • cielo62 says:

            Racer- GZ could cry for protective custody, but solitary confinement also sucks.

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            In most states, you need to get the crap kicked out of you a few times first before you rate any special treatment like solitary.

          • cielo62 says:

            Racer- with his “pre-pissed off” list, I’d say he’s gonna the crap beaten out of him numerous times.

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            I’m sure there will be no real welcoming committee there. I laughed my but off when he stated the bro’s all gave him a sign of solidarity when he was in jail before.

            It may be just me, but when a bunch of hardcore prisoners give you the finger, it’s not out of what we call in the real world, how should I put it…..”Respect”

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Racer,

            Re: “It may be just me, but when a bunch of hardcore prisoners give you the finger, it’s not out of what we call in the real world, how should I put it…..”Respect”

            It is, as we all know, the sign of Intent.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Cielo
            @Racer

            “in response to racerrodig:

            “In most states, you need to get the crap kicked out of you a few times first before you rate any special treatment like solitary.”

            “Racer- with his “pre-pissed off” list, I’d say he’s gonna the crap beaten out of him numerous times.”

            Well, that should solve his IBS.

      • Jun says:

        Jail obviously sucks, but it depends on your offense. If you did not commit a violent crime, you do not get put inside the violent prison, and it is fairly easy jail time. If you did something violent, jail is hardcore. You cant expect any less considering you are placing a large group of violent offenders into one area, something bound to pop off.

        Fogen may fit in as a Nazi Lowrider, as they are a white supremacist gang that accepts hispanics who are half white and ashamed of their latino heritage, so they have to digress their latino heritage, which is basically Fogen, since on all his government id, he considers himself to be a white person

  5. Off-topic: Fred just said, “Oh, I was going to get a haircut today,” and Nikko, our African Grey replied, “Wow…” LOL, Nikko has recently perfected his coyote yelp (Ow Ow Owwwww) and is now working on Cluck cluck chicken house.

    Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      funny, crane 🙂

      you reminded me of a time (many years ago) when i house sat for friends and tended their pets. they had a green parrot trained to say “I’m a greeeeen chicken, bok bok bok” … he also impersonated the police scanner they had nearby. funny stuff!

      • Malisha says:

        Friends of mine had two huge SouthAmerican birds who could imitate ANYTHING. One of them would imitate the father of that family yelling, “Here Mozart, Here Mozart, come here boy,” and the dog (a big husky) would run over to the couch to be petted — and then stare all around trying to find his master who had called him. While the dog gazed around in confusion, the two birds would laugh in exact imitation of the father and the mother laughing uproariously! I wanted them to film it for “stupid ped tricks” or “funniest home videos” but they didn’t and then the dog died. Damn!

    • ay2z says:

      Is Nikko a Louis Jordan fan? He might like BB’s version of Jordan’s ‘Ain’t Nobody Here But Us Chickens’.

    • colin black says:

      Betcha cant teach him a Rebell Yell……….

    • Xena says:

      @Crane-Station

      Off-topic: Fred just said, “Oh, I was going to get a haircut today,” and Nikko, our African Grey replied, “Wow…” LOL,

      They are so precious, and so intelligent.

    • cielo62 says:

      Crane- maybe Prof needed a haircut bad, but Nikko was too polite to mention it. 😉

      Sent from my iPod

  6. Rachel ‏@CraneStation 2m
    Seminole clerk: I’m gonna unseal settlement with Trayvon Martin’s parents http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-trayvon-hoa-settlement-not-confidential-20130408,0,5675871.story
    Expand Reply Delete Favorite More

    • Oops, sorry for the repeat. Question: Where did OS get the believed-to-be-more-than-a-million figure? Where are all these figures and numbers coming from, regarding documents that are sealed?

      • Trained Observer says:

        Does a county clerk make such decisions indepenently without guidance or orders from the chief judge in Seminole County?

      • Trained Observer says:

        iSorry, ndependently. Also, given Ben Crump’s expertise in such matters, could it be that he really wants the details out?

      • ay2z says:

        Crane, by talking to their legal analyst for an ‘opinion’ maybe?

      • Rachael says:

        Isn’t it very often almost standard to keep settlements undisclosed? Isn’t that often part of the settlement? I don’t understand why this needs to be disclosed.

      • ay2z says:

        Rachel, could be that the only requirement of non-disclosure in the settlement agreement is the amount of the settlement. Keeping the amount secret would benefit any insurance company/HOA by not making public what they agreed to pay, and it would benefit that side also in having the redacted document available to explain it was a voluntary payout for reasons allegedly explained in the document and not an admission of any wrong-doing etc etc.

        Seems that ‘payee’ may be happy to have that on the court record and may have asked that this be filed, or consented as in their best interest.

        There have been wild accusations of parents of a dead child, needing to accuse the poor admitted killer for money rather than justice.

        Mr. Crump could make the redacted document, with HOA group’s blessing, to eiminate legitimate speculation on the record. Also, this avoids future doxing as the true original copy in formally in the court file, open to sunshine or not.

        It seems that Mr. Crump has done nothing wrong.

      • ay2z says:

        Just speculating of course.

      • Rachael says:

        I guess I’m just getting tired of all the BS. I just want to get this trial going and stop with all the side show antics.

      • ay2z says:

        amen to that!, Rachel

  7. Seminole clerk: I’m gonna unseal settlement with Trayvon’s parents

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-trayvon-hoa-settlement-not-confidential-20130408,0,5675871.story

    That secret homeowners association settlement with Trayvon Martin’s family may not remain secret much longer.

    Seminole County Clerk of Courts Maryanne Morse has written a letter to Trayvon’s family attorney, Benjamin Crump, telling him that she doesn’t think it meets the standard of a confidential filing so she intends to make it public in 10 days.

    Even so, the total dollar figure paid out by the association will likely remain a secret. That’s because Crump edited it out before he put the 12-page document in the court file Thursday.

    It’s believed to be more than $1 million.

    Part of the 12-page settlement popped into public view for a few minutes Friday. The day before, Crump had made it part of the official court record in the second-degree murder case against former Neighborhood Watch volunteer George Zimmerman.

    Crump had instructed the clerk’s office to seal the settlement, but for a few minutes Friday morning, the first five pages were available for public review. The clerk’s office then blacked out all but the first page, which is a cover sheet filed by Crump.

    After further consideration, however, Morse decided that none of it should be kept secret, so she wrote Crump, telling him she would unseal it in 10 days.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      It just occurred to me that there’s a lot of news footage we haven’t seen of the area that night. Possibly capturing some of the people who don’t appear on the crime scene contamination logs or who otherwise did not want their appearance noted. Who knows, maybe they caught a picture of Osterman or Shelly there, before they claimed to have arrived, or maybe someone got a picture of GZ’s truck and where it was parked.

      In the clip they use as a background there’s someone who looks suspiciously like Lee, but we never get to see his face in the clip.
      So keep your eyes peeled gang and be sure to scrutinize the backgrounds etc.,

  8. Rachael says:

    A friend of mine who is 60 and lives in Texas was out taking her regular walk. She was wearing a hoodie and sunglasses and a neighbor called the police to report suspicious gang activity.

    I kid you not.

    Sigh.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      I wonder what that does to the mind of the responding officer.

    • I totally believe it.

      • racerrodig says:

        It had to be raining though ? Had to !!

        • Somebody called the cops/homeland security on Fred once, in our town, because Fred was doing back stretches/Tai Chi in a parking lot, while he was waiting for me to finish a meeting. He was stretching some sore back muscles, because he had been standing and waiting for quite a while. Amazing he wasn’t shot for being ‘suspicious.’

          Also, on the note of gun safety. A family member of mine is a marksman/very very conservative/gun ‘fanatic’/collector. He would never in a thousand years stand by and ‘back’ a gunman, if the person claims he ‘forgot’ that he was carrying. I can’t imagine that all gun ownership advocates support this sort of behavior. This person in my family is fanatic about safety, and ‘I-forgot-I-was-carrying-a-loaded-handgun’ doesn’t cut it, in terms of gun safety. ‘I forgot I had the gun’ is about as credible as ‘I forgot where I was,’ and ‘I forgot where I put the phone.’

          I am not a gun owner. Is this what they teach in gun class, that it’s okay to ‘forget’ that you are carrying a gun? Seems pretty crazy.

          • racerrodig says:

            I guess i better jog on my own property from now on. As a gun owner, and raised around guns by a cap named “dad” Fogen’s claim that he forgot or it was “the” gun are horseshit. There is no way on God’s green earth one will forget that. Your party is correct about that.

            I get customers who have an engine problem, call me, want free advice, then argue and have the nerve to say “…it can’t be…I checked everything” Duhhhhhhhhh If you checked everything, you’d have found the problem…..Game – Set – Match.

            For the record, they never teach you it’s the gun nor forget about it.

          • Well, that’s what I have always thought, especially having grown up with an expert (no kidding) RW gun owner. This person has been all about safety for as long as I can remember, crap like this would never fly in his book.

            GZ claims on the one hand, to ‘mentor children,’ and on the other to ‘forget’ that he is carrying a loaded weapon. What bullshit.

          • racerrodig says:

            He hasn’t even fooled those waskawy wacist phooles…..they just lie about believing him..

      • Rachael says:

        I’m totally with you Crane. How someone who carries all the time except to work can suddenly forget they are carrying but just as suddenly “remember,” makes no sense to me. I mean I put my glasses on every morning. I am not “aware” that they are there so that is sort of like I forget I have them on, but I can’t get out of bed and see without them so it isn’t like I can actually forget I have them on. I could no more forget to walk out my door without my glasses than GZ apparently could without his gun. The idea that someone is supposedly trained to use it but forgets they have it on them is scary indeed. Okay now I know he said he is forgetful and this is like some kind of a problem for him, but maybe someone who has that much memory problems shouldn’t be carrying a gun around anyway. I have never understood how he could forget he had it on him.

        • Good analogy. I was thinking of an analogy as well, along the lines of people don’t forget they are driving a car, for example. (At least I would hope not.)

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          It wasn’t even his gun, it belonged to his wife. He didn’t forget that he had it, he just wanted to make it appear reasonable to conclude that he didn’t draw his weapon the moment he heard someone coming towards him in the dark. Of course, it helps to “forget’ you’ve got a gun, when you’re trying to explain that you were reaching for your phone.

          But the real reason GZ has problems selling this story is, it’s made up of whole cloth! Trayvon never came towards him ever while he was out of his truck. GZ just makes things up because he believes that he’s the only witness so there’s no way to refute what he says.

          That has turned out not to be the case. Game Over!!!

          • racerrodig says:

            Lonnie, do you think Fogen being at Colonial Village answers the holes in the factual time line. It’s only a minute or so drive from A to B and he has about a 2 minute time line issue. Maybe he couldn’t “remember” the names of the streets because at that moment he was not at the RATL, he was in CV or on the way to RATL.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            The cctv evidence only works with the NEN call and Trayvon’s call with DD, if the RATL Mail kiosk is used as the start point for all three. So, anything that might have happened elsewhere, had to have happened prior to Trayvon’s arrival at the RATL Mail Kiosk.

            I kinda think that those 3 stooges at the 711, were the reason TM left home in the first place. I believe that Trayvon’s remark to DD that he wished his mother were there with him, on his walk to the store, means to me that he had trepidations and foreboding about what may be up ahead at the store. In short, he knew he was going to meet people at the store, and he wasn’t at all sure what the score was.

            Those guys came by car. They could very easily have followed him back to RATL, keeping an eye on him from a distance, or even driving past him. That might give him the willies enough to make him want to leave the main road and walk through the complex, since he could be sure no car could follow him undetected.

            Unfortunately he did not need to be followed because they already knew where he lived. So, they could easily drive over to RVC South and take up a position in the car and wait. Meanwhile they could just as easily report by cell phone to GZ. These guys didn’t cover their faces at 711 for nothing, they knew something was going down and they knew they did not want to be identified with Trayvon, which is why they waited until he left the store before they pulled up.

            Trayvon left the store but waited outside for 30 seconds, not a lot, but why wait at all? Unless you’re expecting to meet someone who hasn’t yet shown up, you’d start walking home. I think the SP has reviewed more of those pulled cctv’s and possibly seen these guys making strange movements around the area.

            Don’t worry, GZ is not getting away.

            |||=> Tick Tock! Clink Clank <-|||

          • racerrodig says:

            “|||=> Tick Tock! Clink Clank <-|||"

            Oh, I'm not worried in the least. Another interesting thing is the defense making a big deal about video from some neighboring store cameras. Then it died instantly. Maybe that showed Trayvon taking an alternate route??

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            More than likely it showed the “3 stooges” in their car moving along slowly and stopping in various places to keep an eye on Trayvon’s progress. Apparently GZ was waiting until the last possible minute to arrange the injuries and blood at home, in the hopes they’d appear as fresh as possible at the scene.

            Long time ago when I posted that those guys at 711 seemed a strange coincidence to me, that was because here was one white guy and two blacks. That tripped my memory that one white guy was carrying Burgess stolen computer and he was with three blacks at that time. So, minus Burgess, that white guy would now be traveling with two blacks and what-do-you-know, a white guy with 2 blacks suddenly show up at 711. Strange coincidence eh? Well, I guess some treehouser seized on that and tried to twist it into evidence of Trayvon being some kind of criminal, that maybe they could catch him on film breaking into cars and such, along the way.

            My guess is when they reviewed those store tapes, all they could find was the car those three were riding in, moving suspiciously behind Trayvon, as in following him, but from a distance. After all, if they’d set up this meeting, they’d know where he lived and they’d know where he was going. Still, they’d have to keep an eye on him, since they could not rule out that he might find some diversion along the way. My guess is the SP has picked up on this too and that’s probably why all has gone quiet, since it’s more indicative of M1 than M2.

      • Malisha says:

        Recently I was staying with a friend’s kid while the parents were out of town. A guy in their apartment building peered at us down the hall, ducked behind a wall and then peeked out at us again while we were entering the apartment. He looked either drunk or ill — unsteady on his feet. He was tall, white, middle-aged and wearing a black parka. I actually got a bit freaked out by his behavior and called security. I started off my report with: “I’m no George Zimmerman but…”

        They laughed and checked it out.

        • Well, good point, actually, and it’s telling that they did laugh.

          • cielo62 says:

            Crane- you know quite well that parrots are amazingly intelligent. Growing up I had a double yellow head amazon. He would laugh at just the right time when my mom told jokes in the kitchen (where his cage was). I never could get how he knew when to laugh!

            Sent from my iPod

          • Yes, they really are amazing. My family has had umbrella cockatoos also…a joy to have. (Umbrella cockatoos are the puppy dogs of the parrots. They are very cuddly and affectionate, much more that the African Greys.)

        • racerrodig says:

          That’s rich…..!!

      • Rachael says:

        Maybe people do forget they are driving and when they do, a disaster happens, just like a disaster happenened when GZ “forgot” he had the gun. All I know is if someone asked me if I had my glasses on, I wouldn-‘t say I forgot because when I say I don’t leave my house without them, I don’t forget.

    • colin black says:

      A few years ago we had an inititive by the then Tory Goverment of John Major..who?,,,
      Anyway a lot of bad press about youths causeing trouble wearing hoodies to intimidate people ect.
      It was sugested that many youths feel aleinated an uncared for by society an hoodies far from intimidation maybe a uniform of sorts for them to hide behind.An it was proposed an sanctioned that instead of crossing the road or avoiding eye contact with hoodie wearing youths
      We should aproach them a give them a big old cuddle.
      It was known as the hug a hoodie policy,

    • ay2z says:

      Remember the suspicious person in ‘printed vinyl pants’ (maybe fogen said brightly colored, can’t say for sure without checking) that fogen called in?

      What every bad guy with criminal intent on his mind, w;ears to scope out a neighborhood, maybe that way they’d ‘blend’ in with the suspicious children playing in the street.

    • cielo62 says:

      Was the dog a pit bull? People here in Texas shore are stoopid!!

      Sent from my iPod

  9. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    I am on another blog where the side issue of “racism” has had a lot of activity. Here is what I just posted in the last half hour. [I refer to a blogger there by his avatar name, but I will change that name to “xxx” here.

    I am so glad that I have had the opportunity to watch xxx’s gimmicks. I see him as a “study” subject.

    He assigns his racist attributes and label to us in an effort to wipe his hands clean and declare “End of discussion!”

    His attempt to be the “Teflon” man, of course, fails because of his earlier, recorded, written “deeds”……that is, his loaded words and replies that “bag” him.

    He has now left his defensive words behind as he goes on the offense with a untrue, fairy-tale description of us.*

    What xxx doesn’t seem to understand is that our team can see through his gimmicks.

    What is sad is that 4 posters voted xxx’s lame attempts up because they seem to love his “song and dance” routine.

    .

    .

    * Remember how George took out a restraining order against his ex-fiance AFTER she acquired a restraining order against him? That was his attempt to deflect being labeled as the problem and imply that she had the problem instead of him. He even went further on his MySpace page to let everyone know that she was the problem…..by calling her “the ex-HO.”

  10. SearchingMind says:

    @ boar_d_laze

    “If Mr. O’Mara breached his duty of confidentiality as described by the “conservative” blogger and Professor Leatherman, Mr. O’Mara would most likely be subject to pretty serious sanctions.”

    I disagree, Boar, on the following grounds:

    IF O’Mara did any or all of the things as “described by the “conservative” blogger and Professor Leatherman”, ‘that’ in and of itself would NOT amount to a “breach” of anything nor “subject him to pretty serious sanctions” within the meaning of the Rules of Professional Conduct.

    Presently, we do not know of (a) any waiver agreement between GZ and O’Mara, (b) what the waiver agreement contains and (c) if the parties could agree to such content without violating any laws. Above all, we do not even know of the contents of the private discussions between O’Mara and GZ regarding GZ’s (degree of) culpability in Trayvon’s death (maybe GZ has acknowledged some form of culpability in their private discussions). As such we are poorly armed to determine (d) what the interests are and (e) whether or not those interests are intrinsically or superficially adverse to one another. These issues must first be resolved before any “breach” can be established. Certainly, the information as provided by the Professor and the “conservative” blogger, is NOT enough to come to that conclusion.

    Lastly, thanks for using the words “conservative blogger” re SundanceCracker. I am not comfortable with the frenzied hate directed at that individual on this blog – because (a) such is/ought to be beneath us, (b) we commit the same “offence” we condemn that gangster for and (c) the issue is not SundanceCracker but the truthfulness/falsity of his allegations – which are not dependent on ‘who he is’ and as such must be investigated, proven or disproven. I am hoping that O’Mara did not mess up this time. Because if he did and is forced to quit this case, that will definitely mean new lawyer and by necessity loooong continuance.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I agree with you, SearchingMind, that “the issue is not SundanceCracker, but the truthfulness/falsity of his allegations – which are not dependent on ‘who’ he is.”

      And, yet there is that looming question out there that IS a side issue to this case. The question is, “Why do some people support gz? Added to that question is, “What types of people support gz?”

      • SearchingMind says:

        Why do some people support GZ? This question is not very simple to answer. I have articulated the following in an attempt to provide some answers (and hope that I will not be a member of a minority group anywhere I go):

        a. There are some who do not like African Americans and want to see them dispossessed, humiliated and suffer pain. These are the hardcore racists.

        b. There some who see this case as a liberal v. conservative issue. Many Whites individuals equate being White with being conservative (though they understand naught of conservatism). Such individuals are more likely to support GZ (not because GZ is White, but because they have to oppose the liberals and the liberal agenda – spearheaded in this case by Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Eric Holder, MSNBC, POTUS, etc.

        c. Some do not necessarily believe GZ’s stories. These individuals believe that GZ is innocent until proven guilty and want him to get a fair trial (so they claim at least). Most of them are (former) defense attorneys (e.g. Jera Merritt);

        d. There are some who innocently believe GZ is innocent. That innocent belief is based on misinformation and ignorance of the facts (and law), etc. The individuals in this group will turn against GZ the moment they are confronted with the truth of what happened.

        In summary, I concur with the Professor that anyone who knows all the facts of this case and still supports (i.e. believes) GZ (acted in self-defense) is a racist.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        @ searchingmind
        I concur with your analysis with one exception. I think Jeralyn Merritt needs a category all by herself.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I also agree with you SearchingMind.

    • Just wanted to add by way of clarification, that Fred did not report that O’Mara was allegedly involved. Rather, he was asking if the information on TCTH is/has been verified. We have zero information about the details of the settlement, just so you know.

    • Mary Davis says:

      @ SeachingMind. I agree with you. I hope O’Mara did not mess up either. This murder case has gone on long enough. It is past time for trial to start. I don’t want to even think about another six months.

  11. SearchingMind says:

    @ Trained Observer, Collin, Malisha

    The six-months logic

    IF O’Mara quits as a result of conflict of interest, a NEW attorney will be appointed. The NEW attorney will definitely NEED TIME (about 6-months!) to study the case and prepare for trial. That is the “real” world. I wasn’t expecting to “go abc” for that to be understood.

    • SearchingMind says:

      And given the nature of this case, 6-months would be a minimum. A continuance is in that scenario a ‘Fait accompli’.

      • Malisha says:

        But there are TWO lawyers on Fogen’s case. West is still on the case.

      • SearchingMind says:

        I do not think so. O’Mara and West form a unit/team. If (and I mean ‘IF’) there is breach of confidentiality, conflict of interest on the part of either one of them, both must quit. This is the way I understand the Rules of Professional Conduct is meant to- and should work. Of course there would people who would argue that the misconduct of a team member ought not reflect on the team as such. But that approach will, IMO, not be in harmony with the spirit of the law.

      • SearchingMind says:

        @ Trained Observer

        “To suggest the HOA civil settlement automatically means (or leads) to a COI and almost immediate step-down or dismissal of MOM because of silly commentary or other untoward behavior is what’s not, as you like to put it, “real.”

        I did not say or even remotely suggest what you stated above.

        Maybe you would like to REproduce what I said (that could be interpreted as did) – for the sake of fairness.

        YES, I know what JN is going to do – “IF” (…). IF (and I mean IF) what the Professor wrote is correct and O’Mara is forced to quit as a result, such would mean all of the following:

        a. Appointment of a new attorney;

        b. The new attorney MUST be given reasonable time to study the case and prepare for trial. That’s an affirmative demand of Fair Trial. Given the nature of this case, 6-months is about reasonable;

        c. West would not be appointed. West and O’Mara form a single unit. IF there is breach of confidentiality or conflict of interest on the side of O’Mara, both O’Mara and West MUST quit. That is the law and JN CAN’T do anything about that (never mind that you did not have West in mind when you wrote your initial commentary);

        d. By giving the new attorney reasonable time (6-months) to study the case and prepare for trial, CONTINUACE becomes a fait accompli (for that duration).

        Your statement: “You might try recalling that when Phil Spector’s attorney Bruce Cutler departed for other projects, Linda Kenney Baden stepped up from advisor to lead” – does not make sense. There were NO violations of any of the Rules of Professional Conduct involved(nor do you claim that Bruce Cutler and Linda Kenney Baden were co-counsels). There is a fundamental, substantial difference between the case you cite and the present case. The argument you make is therefore a non-sequitur and must be rejected.

    • Trained Observer says:

      SM — Nor was I on the ABCs.

      To suggest the HOA civil settlement automatically means (or leads) to a COI and almost immediate step-down or dismissal of MOM because of silly commentary or other untoward behavior is what’s not, as you like to put it, “real.”

      We don’t know what JN plans on any of the motions at the bench. Bar sanctions take time, and Fogen likely will be long gone to the slammer before O’Mara’s transgressions are examined.

      BTW, should MOM depart, you have no way of knowing that a “NEW attorney” would be appointed. West could take the lead and might or might not pick up a second chair without any judicial appointing. Fogen, ass that he is, might decide to rep himself.

      You might try recalling that when Phil Spector’s attorney Bruce Cutler departed for other projects, Linda Kenney Baden stepped up from advisor to lead.

      So why not expand your horizons and transport yourself a little farther down the alphabet to “O” for options, “P” for possibilities and “R” for reality?

      • SearchingMind says:

        See the comment above. I pressed the wrong reply burton.

      • SearchingMind says:

        “So why not expand your horizons and transport yourself a little farther down the alphabet to “O” for options, “P” for possibilities and “R” for reality?”

        Typical ghetto mentality, not?

      • Trained Observer says:

        “Typical ghetto mentality, not?” — searching (alleged) mind

        What? Do tell us more about typical ghetto mentality …

  12. jo says:

    just some oddities that always stick with me about this case, in random order:

    * Trayvon was probably standing by FT’s house because he was waiting for GZ to pass before crossing the road. There was nothing suspicious about this. What GZ described as suspicious loitering/looking around was probably because he was driving past so damn slow trying to get a good look at his suspect whilst frantically grabbing at his phone and dialing for back-up. If GZ had just driven past at normal speed and minded his own fucking business then Trayvon could have just crossed the damn road and continued on his way. Just another suspicious situation GZ created himself. Trayvon was standing in the rain cause he was waiting for you, asshole.

    * If GZ was scared for his life, so scared in fact that he shot someone in the heart to stop a “brutal” beating, then why didn’t he run like hell when Trayvon was on the ground? He says he didn’t think he had shot him. Well either you didn’t shoot him so why do you think he lay down in the grass motionless? What, did he think Travyon was finally bowing down to his authority? If you were bashed to near death why re-engage when you could be running away? Why did he tell this lie? There doesn’t seem to be a reason for it. He says he didn’t realise he shot Trayvon or that he was dead until way later at the station (Hannity interview i think), even though he aimed to avoid his own hand, even though Trayvon was now motionless in the grass, even though after he had walked away from the childs body and engaged in conversation with a witness Trayvon STILL remained lifeless in the grass. Usually people lie for a reason, so what is the reason for telling this lie that he didn’t know he had shot and killed until later. Bizzare. Perhaps to cover for tampering with the body. I don’t know.

    * If GZ thought he was going to die from being smashed beaten and suffocated, why couldn’t he fight off his “attacker” until he was nearly unconscious? That is pure bull right there. So it was only in his near unconscious state that he was strong enough to fight back.

    * How did he get his gun if he was laying on it, and how did Trayvon see it if he was laying on it?

    * He basically told Singleton what really happened. “have you ever had to shoot anybody?” he asked, when she said no he didn’t say “oh you are lucky you haven’t been nearly beaten to death”…no, he said something like “i guess no one would question your authority”. Case closed.

    • Xena says:

      @Jo

      He basically told Singleton what really happened. “have you ever had to shoot anybody?” he asked, when she said no he didn’t say “oh you are lucky you haven’t been nearly beaten to death”…no, he said something like “i guess no one would question your authority”. Case closed.

      Here ya go …

      • jo says:

        ahh thanks xena, i was looking for it for ages!!!!

      • jo says:

        yeah that’s it. “your probably stern enough” giggle giggle “i wouldn’t question your authority”….not “good for you, you’ve never been in a life or death struggle”.

        • Xena says:

          @Jo

          not “good for you, you’ve never been in a life or death struggle”.

          Right! Not even, have you ever had to shoot someone in self-defense? GZ took the position of having authority over Trayvon, even referring to him as a “suspect” in his written statement.

      • @Xena

        …And he’s laughing “ha ha” after killing someone like it’s no big deal. Sick psycho!

        • Xena says:

          @SG2

          And he’s laughing “ha ha” after killing someone like it’s no big deal. Sick psycho!

          GZ is a sociopath, but part of the reason for his giggles was because he was nervous as a son-of-a-gun. He did not get the response from Singleton that he wanted — sympathetic– so he turned to talking about his wife. GZ is a deceiver, and he’s done it for so long that it’s an instinct for him.

          • racerrodig says:

            And Fogen responds with “…my wife is a mess…” which begs the question………….What was she like AFTER she heard you killed someone.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @ Racer –

            What was Shellie like AFTER she heard?

            That’s the testimony I want to hear from witness “Jon.”

          • racerrodig says:

            Him saying she’s a mess after the fact and she was a mess before the fact. So, in effect, nothing changed.

      • LeaNder says:

        Xena, interestingly I have more problems with understanding passages of what he says here than, frankly I seem to have less problems with DeeDee.

        I understand clearly “Did you ever have to shoot somebody?” and the end: “My wife is a mess.” In between his reference to her authority sticks out, the rest would be partly guesswork. But maybe I should listen again to understand what could make him laugh in this context.

        • racerrodig says:

          “Did you ever have to shoot somebody?” Singleton could have said “No……but the nights still young” The look on his face would have been Pricle$$

          • fauxmccoy says:

            racer says … ‘but the night’s still young’

            priceless, buddy!

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Faux,

            If this were not such a tragedy, we could all write a great buffoon comedy script together.

            Seth Rogan plays GZ?

          • fauxmccoy says:

            sounds good to me, piranhamom

            maybe we could make it a musical?

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @ Faux –

            Perfect! Remember “Springtime for Hitler”?

            Jackie Gleason always said “Fat guys make great dancers.” When you watch old videos of Gleason’s work, you’ll know he’s right.

            And a-w-aaaaaaay we go!

          • cielo62 says:

            THE PRODUCERS!

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            On here and HP we did a movie cast with all the players. It was pretty good and everyone chimed in. Seth Rogen ?? I forget who played Fogen in the other cast, but it was someone who had played sinister deceitful roles.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Long story short, the horrible, disgusting, shameful and cowardly, hated lying, and psychopathic child killer, has been caught committing a senseless cold blooded murder. Worse yet, some LEA’s were willing to call the case in favor of the Fogen, before the processes they were interfering with were complete. The Fogen’s legal team has committed some pretty disgusting maneuvers, all in vain attempts to paint the Fogens victim as trash, even though that had nothing to do with the attempt to prove Fogen innocent, which is the mission with which they were charged. Thus they will not be winning any awards for difficult lawyering, they had a chance to display their legal competence and they failed. For the friends and supporters of the toxic Fogen it has been one disaster after another.

          • racerrodig says:

            Personally I’m glad they screwed up so badly. Every one of the 1/2 dozen lawyers I do expert work for says the Immunity Hearing should have been filed withing days of any lawyer taking him as a client. If they had filed a year ago, he had a far better chance of skating than waiting. Did they think playing this game would make him so rich with donations it wouldn’t matter ????

            Worlds Dumbest Criminals, contact O’ Mara at …………………

          • cielo62 says:

            racer~ I think everything MOM and GZ have done has been motivtaed by Peter Pan. MOM misjudged the depth of the evidence against GZ and really wanted to milk this cash cow. The cow has run dry and GZs goose is cooked.

          • racerrodig says:

            Yep, it looks like Peter Pan flew the coop on those invisible wires.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Anyone watching this clip without knowing circumstances, might think Fogen, with his jocular inquiry, was merely a witness to a school prank where some other schmuck had gotten caught mooning the the principal. Impossible to tell with camera angle, but his quick shift to the “my wife’s a mess” remark makes me wonder if Singleton had shot him a warning “don’t be a bigger ass than you are” glance.

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @Jo,

      I love the way you write. Nothing namby-pamby. Ya’ tell it like it is. And by the way, you’re right.

      Astute observation re the exchange with Singleton. It’s been brought up before, as all the issues have, but I like the way you entered it as the punchline.

      Absolutely no disputing your facts.

      That’s a good read. Thanks.

      • PiranhaMom says:

        Oh – and I’m still waiting to hear what Shellie said in response to “Jon” calling her and telling her “Your husband just shot somebody.”

        1) “Did he pick up the pizza, Tampax, cauliflower, pasta … ?(take your pick)

        2) “With MY gun?”

        3) “Who was he mentoring?”

        4) “Did he shoot himself in the hand? (name other body parts)

        5) “Was he drinking with Frank?”

      • jo says:

        haha yeah that would be interesting, or maybe she just turned to osterman and gave him a high 5……”he got one”!!

      • Trained Observer says:

        Piranha — How about “all of the above” — 1 through 5, along with Jo’ High Fiver?

        She should have asked about picking up Draino because that’s where her life is going to circle if she doesn’t flip and make a deal with Bernie.

    • onlyiamunitron says:

      “Trayvon was probably standing by FT’s house because he was waiting for GZ to pass before crossing the road. ”

      I thought this early on and it makes perfect sense.

      Except.

      During the interview under oath with Bernie in April of last year, Witness 8 has Trayvon running under the mail thing in the gated area, at which point the call drops and she calls back, which starts the 18 minute phone call.

      That would put crossing the road after Zimmerman passed back at 6:54 pm or earlier, 15 minutes before his NEN call.

      Witness 8 also has Trayvon saying someone’s watching him “a couple of minutes” into that 18 minute call, and him starting to walk in response, at which point the call drops again and she calls back for the final 4 minute call between the two of them.

      It seems unlikely that he leaves the “mail thing” and walks for 16 minutes, so I’m thinking her estimation of “a couple of minutes” is way off, but that puts Martin under the mail kiosk for most of 18 minutes while Zimmerman does what? Searches everywhere in the neighborhood except there?

      In short, Martin waiting for that old guy to get his truck out of the way so he could cross the street in front of Frank’s house made perfect sense, right up until Witness 8 came along and spoiled it.

      unitron

      • Trayvon wasn’t under the “mail thing” in the retreat, it was the colonial apt next to the retreat. That actually has a mail “shed” as witness 8 stated. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U6HVOvtLNk which now makes the most sense in the world.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          “Trayvon wasn’t under the “mail thing” in the retreat, it was the colonial apt next to the retreat. That actually has a mail “shed” as witness 8 stated.”

          And if she hadn’t told Bernie under oath that Trayvon was inside th gated area when he got under the mail thing, I’d agree.

          It makes the timeline work a lot better.

          unitron

      • jo says:

        well that is where gz himself said….i saw him standing there on the lawn just looking about in the rain…so going by what gz said, yes he was probably waiting for gz to pass so he could cross to the footpath. It was probably all of a minute, from the time GZ was driving up the road, passed Trayvon and continued to the car park as he said it happened. Unless GZ stopped to a halt, so he painted an extremely normal action (waiting for the car to pass rather than stepping out in front of it and becoming it’s new hood ornament) as suspicious behaviour to support his notion that this guy was out for trouble.

        When i heard the NEN call before i knew anything about the case i couldn’t understand the controversy, from the description GZ gave it sounded like this kid was really up to no good. GZ really painted a picture and anyone listening would have believed his propaganda. I thought it sounded like this kid was sneaking between places, and where he just shouldn’t have been….only to find out he was just walking on the street and between houses and past a public club house and that the caller was following in his car etc etc. GZ made very normal behaviour sound criminal. He wasn’t loitering and casing houses, he was waiting for the nosy vigilante to pass by….no doubt very slowly…so he could carry on home.

        as for synching it with deedee’s call, well i’m sure she is being as accurate as she can be. She knows what she was told or at least what she thought was happening by Trayvons commentary, but not even gz can synch his story of what happened with his own NEN call and he was there!!! so i’d allow for some inaccuracies in dee dee’s account given she was hearing it all played out before she even knew the significance of what she was hearing.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          “so i’d allow for some inaccuracies in dee dee’s account given she was hearing it all played out before she even knew the significance of what she was hearing.”

          How far do you go in tolerating inaccuracies in the testimony of the chief witness for the prosecution in a murder trial?

          I’m not talking about other stuff like her age or medical history, I’m talking about what she said she heard on the phone that night and the order in which she said she heard it.

          Like I said, early on I too figured Trayvon was standing there waiting for traffic to clear before he crossed the road, but to continue to believe that means having to disbelieve her, which means I’m back where I started, trying to figure out what happened that night.

          unitron

          • Xena says:

            @Unitron

            I’m back where I started, trying to figure out what happened that night.

            Why not stick with what we do know based on GZ’s NEN call and Trayvon’s phone records?

            1. GZ called in a suspicious person, Black male, in his late teens. He referred to that person in the plural; i.e., “These assholes. They always get away.”

            2. GZ said “Shit. He’s running.” And, we hear GZ again refer to one individual in the plural; i.e., “Fucking coons/punks.”

            3. We hear the dispatcher ask GZ if he is following the kid and GZ answers “Yeah.” The dispatcher responded “We don’t need you to do that.” GZ says “Okay” but the sounds that gave reason for the dispatcher to ask if GZ was following continue to be heard.

            4. We hear GZ say “He ran,” but subsequently also hear GZ say he doesn’t want to give out his home address because “I don’t know where this kid is.”

            5. Then we hear GZ change his plans on where to meet the arriving cops and ask that call him for his location.

            6. Trayvon’s phone records provide that he received a call at 6:54 p.m. It also provides that he received a call at 7:12 p.m. that disconnected at 7:16 p.m.

            7. We know by Trayvon’s phone records that he was on the phone with someone during the time that GZ said “I don’t know where this kid is” and also when, or just previous to, residents called 911 reporting screams for help.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “Why not stick with what we do know based on GZ’s NEN call and Trayvon’s phone records?”

            And just ignore anything Witness 8 has to say?

            unitron

          • Xena says:

            @Unitron

            And just ignore anything Witness 8 has to say?

            Did you hear the recording of GZ’s NEN call before you heard anything from Witness 8? What did you learn from GZ’s NEN call?

            Whose on trial, GZ or Witness 8?

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “Did you hear the recording of GZ’s NEN call before you heard anything from Witness 8? ”

            Yes, I did.

            “What did you learn from GZ’s NEN call?”

            That one should never ask him for directions.

            (it was also my first clue that, guilty or innocent, he’s a bit lacking in the good judgement department)

            “Whose on trial, GZ or Witness 8?”

            No, who’s on first, what’s on second and I don’t know is on third.

            : – )

            Are you familiar with the term “Trier of fact”?

            The way the defendent will be tried is that the evidence, including Witness 8’s testimony, if given, will be tried. The jury “tries” all the evidence and determines what out of it is fact.

            So Zimmerman is the one who is charged, and if found guilty, Zimmerman is the one who gets sentenced, but in a sense Witness 8, and all the other witnesses who testify, and all of the other evidence that gets presented, are also on trial.

            If you want to formulate opinions and theories of what happened that night that do not take into account what Witness 8 has to say about it, go right ahead, but don’t expect Bernie to jump on your bandwagon. Or me.

            unitron

          • Xena says:

            @Unitron

            If you want to formulate opinions and theories of what happened that night that do not take into account what Witness 8 has to say about it, go right ahead, but don’t expect Bernie to jump on your bandwagon. Or me.

            Witnesses can die before trial. They can drop off the face of the earth. GZ is still charged with 2nd degree murder and his trial shall still go on.

            You say that you are trying to figure out what happened that night, yet you reduce GZ’s NEN call to a joke — you are disregarding things that he said ON THE NEN call that tells us what he and Trayvon did.

            You are disregarding evidence, such as phone records, the clubhouse videos, DNA, the debris field and Trayvon’s body being about 40 ft south of where GZ said the confrontation took place. Those things tell us what happened that night. They also tell us what didn’t happen. For instance, GZ intending on returning to his truck didn’t happen because he said so — he wanted the cops to call for his location. That’s not his truck moving, but him.

            You are also disregarding the charging affidavit, placing too much emphasis on Witness 8 when only two sentences in the charging affidavit refer to her. The State did not base its case solely on Witness 8. Just in case you forgot, here is the portion of the charging affidavit that refers to Witness 8;

            During this time, Martin was on the phone with a friend and described to her what was happening. The witness advised that Martin was scared because he was being followed through the complex by an unknown male and didn’t know why.

          • racerrodig says:

            This must be “slap a Zidiot day”

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig

            This must be “slap a Zidiot day”

            LOL!!! Maybe it’s slap a Zidiot month. 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            And the month is still young…..

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            It’s truly sad that unitron can only formulate questions, that challenge GZ’s guilt, by ignoring all the related evidence that makes it unlikely or impossible, that what he is questioning, leads to exculpatory conclusions.

            Meanwhile we are all guilty of gross insanity ourselves!

            Think about it, if you were a parent in a highly permissive gun owner state, exactly how would you charge your teenage children about talking with and/or engaging strangers? Would you, at some point, remind them that strangers could be armed with deadly weapons? Would you explain to them that this is a serious reason why, they should mind their manners in the company of strangers?

            I think so because, this is exactly the thing you have to remind yourself when you get annoyed by circumstances. I’m not from a permissive gun ownership state and I do it myself. Try to remember that the person you’re about to have words with, could very well be armed. Probably not in an office or place of business. But not because you don’t expect business people and workers to be armed, but because you expect them to behave differently than strangers out on the street, because they have the business effort to be responsible for.

            But, strangers out on the street are different. So, you have to remind yourself to be gentle to that person who bumps into your new suit with that double scoop ice cream cone. Or who spills that tomato soup on your light colored dress. Or, who otherwise does any of a million other vexing/irritating things. You have to remember it is a gun state.

            So then, when Trayvon Martin sees that he’s being followed by a stranger, who seems to be angry or crazed for some unknowable reason. Trayvon cannot simply rush up to him and ask a question, because he has to be aware that this man could be dangerously armed.

            Don’t think so? GZ says “he’s coming towards me!” That is Trayvon signaling that “Here’s your chance to explain yourself”, while at the same time keeping a safe distance. GZ fails to explain himself at this opportune close encounter, Trayvon has no other choice but to assume that GZ is armed and dangerous therefore.

            It cannot make any possible sense to think anything else. A policeman, undercover, would have identified themselves as soon as they realized they’d been discovered. A security person, whose only intention was to maintain security, would have identified themselves and then asked any questions they had. GZ did not do that, he, instead continued to maintain a hostile atmosphere.

            That threatening hostile atmosphere could only be aggravated when Trayvon discovered that, the man in the truck he had fled from, was now on foot and coming towards him. There is not a sane way to supposed that Trayvon would move towards a likely armed stranger who was getting closer to him. There is no reason or purpose which would make him do so. Not even in the wildest stretches of the most insane imagination. People simply do not move towards deadly threats and GZ represented the worst kind of deadly threat that night.

          • I agree.

            I’ve always seen the case this way.

            Plus, the idea that he would announce his presence and proceed to attempt to beat a likely armed and menacing stranger to death with his bare hands is a non-starter for me.

            Absurd idea.

          • racerrodig says:

            With all due respect, You got that right homie……

            The “B” movie line tags told me right there this is baloney. Then we started to get facts and witness statements, baloney ballooned straight into “Total Bullshit” and needless to say, that’s where it is now,

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Powerfully stated Professor, powerful.

          • racerrodig says:

            My dad taught me just that from an early age in a state where we have the toughest gun laws in the Nation. Never challenge anyone in the real world who could pose a threat. Never act crazy to scare a crazy off, there is someone out there badder, faster, tougher, crazier, with a shorter fuse and all of it spells bad news.

            Just like in our hot rod / race car world. There is always someone with a bigger bullet (engine / HP)

            Fogen was intent on demonstrating this and Trayvon was one that just happened by.

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr

            Trayvon cannot simply rush up to him and ask a question, because he has to be aware that this man could be dangerously armed.

            But see, you’re realistic and logical, quite the opposite of GZ and Zidiots.

            GZ’s story and Zidiot double-back theory requires that Trayvon knew GZ was following him on foot, where GZ went, and that GZ would use the same route returning. Logically, since Trayvon ran down the T, then he would have needed to see GZ pass the T on his way to RVC. He would have no way of knowing that GZ was coming back that way.

            So, if Trayvon wanted to attack GZ, what would be his mostly likely move? Go on RVC and confront GZ.

            That is why I coined the phrase bigotvoyent, because the Zidiot double-back theory requires that Trayvon could read GZ’s mind.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Worse yet, Trayvon would still be on the phone, telling DD he lost him, as he turned back north to chase down GZ while planning to assault a big, heavy and possibly armed adult with only his bare hands as weapons. Of course, in GZ’s fantasy world, people do incredibly stupid things like that. Helpless frightened children, fleeing one moment, turn into towering lethal monsters in the next moment.

            Where a man who can, in a fit of anger, carry a hundred some odd pound woman across an entire room and fling her out the door so that she lands and breaks an ankle, Is now unable to push away a 158 lb teenager. While, he’s in a moment of danger, he forgets that he’s carrying a deadly weapon he trained to use for protection in just such a situation.

            I really can’t wait to hear him tell a jury these stories. They should do a split screen so that we can watch the jurors faces while GZ spins his tales from the stand.

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr

            I really can’t wait to hear him tell a jury these stories.

            Oh, I anxiously await trial. Can’t wait for GZ’s phone records to be introduced at trial. Noticed something…

            I was watching the tape of the first bond hearing again. Gilbreath was asked about GZ calling Corey’s office. BDLR asked Gilbreath that when GZ called Corey’s office, if it was true that GZ was aware that FDLE was monitoring him the entire time he was out of town.

            GZ left Ostermans, ShelLIE got her passport, and they couldn’t coordinate to flee because GZ was aware that he was being monitored.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes, I remember thinking that this was the real reason he went into the Jacksonville office. He believed he could con them into giving him the room he needed to flee, instead he was arrested.

            My guess is that even at that point the SP had enough to know that charges were needed. The hold up was probably that some in the office were inclined to go for M1. I wonder if they can add more charges now?

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr

            He believed he could con them into giving him the room he needed to flee, instead he was arrested.

            Yes. Remember too that according to Taaffe, GZ stopped off at Baez’s office and talked to him before he drove to FDLE. Evidently, Baez did not want to intervene and talk for GZ, neither represent him.

            My guess is that even at that point the SP had enough to know that charges were needed.

            Yes, Serino called GZ twice and wanted him to come in for more questioning during the last week of March. He told GZ to talk to his attorneys and get back to him. Apparently, GZ did not, cut-off communications with his attorneys, left Osterman’s and hit the road.

            The hold up was probably that some in the office were inclined to go for M1. I wonder if they can add more charges now?

            The State would not be able to up the charges to M1 because that requires a Grand Jury. They can however, add charges such as not having a valid CCL (Class G). Jury instructions can also instruct on lesser charges of manslaughter and assault with a deadly weapon since he fired a gun in a residential area, said he did not know if he had actually shot Trayvon, and rather than be concerned where the bullet went, jumped on Trayvon’s back.

            Trial is going to be interesting.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Uni,

            ” don’t expect Bernie to jump on your bandwagon. Or me.”

            Uni – sworn truth – in a million years I would not expect you to jump, crawl, skydive or inject yourself by Scud missile onto ANYbody’s bandwagon.

            As I view it, you see yourself as the lone mustang, and that’s OK.

            If you somehow got put on a bandwagon, you would fight to the death, kicking & snorting to get off.

            And that’s OK, too.

          • racerrodig says:

            I said it about 8 hours ago and I guess I was right when I said it looks like slap a Zidiot day.

          • cielo62 says:

            PirhanaMom- I love the way you write!

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            It was “Slap a Zidiot Day”

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Uni,

            Keep in mind that during the last day’s phone conversations with Trayvon, “DeeDee” had no reason to fasten onto every last detail. How could she know it was going to be their final conversation?

            Days later she is asked to recall the details as best she can. She knows nothing about the geography of the neighborhood where Trayvon was killed. As it turns out, her memory is fits a great number of the jigsaw pieces together. But let’s put DeeDee aside for a moment.

            You are a great and persistent questioner, Uni, so I have a question for you: considering where Trayvon’s body was found – on the wet grass – and considering the dried blood trails across Zimmerman’s scalp photographed immediately after the killing: why wasn’t the blood smeared on the back of Zimmerman’s head, from contact with the wet grass, if Zimmerman was UNDER Trayvon Martin, as Zimmerman claims, when he shot him?

            If the blood isn’t smeared, does this mean Zimmerman lied?

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @unitron

            in a sense, yes we do get to ‘play cafeteria’ with W8’s testimony.

            her recollections of events as told to her by trayvon are mostly hearsay and will not be entered into evidence. the exception to the hearsay rule, would be trayvon’s dying words which are exempt from the hearsay rules as ‘excited utterances’.

            it would be impossible to hold her to a strict play by play scene of the entire event because she was not there. since the call was not recorded, all we have are her weeks later recollections of a call. trying to incorporate her information into a timeline is futile at best.

            fred will correct me if i am wrong, but the entire interview with W8 will likely not be entered as evidence due to hearsay rules.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Uni,

            Before I accessed this site last spring, I avoided this issue because I was 2,000 miles west, had no links to FL law enforcement and could not figure out how I could help untangle the mysteries (and mysteries always remain in murder cases).

            But one issue kept screaming at me: I heard on and on about the NW guy getting his head bashed against the concrete. There was a crescendo about that.

            Here was my own personal reference, as I rolled the “NW guy head-bashing” narrative over in my mind: you get a lot of nicks & bruises in farm life, and take them in stride – but they stay in your memory bank. I got a small L-shaped scalp laceration as a teen – roughly 3/4″ x 3/4″. The blood gushed out. Covered everything. Other than the mess, it just didn’t bother me. But the mess was considerable – covered the entire front of my shirt and jacket. No pain that I recall, other than what you would get from a bump (I stood up under a piece of machinery. Dang, I was taller than I thought!) So there was NOTHING to this but a memory, and the later explanation that the scalp is a very vascular area.

            What I couldn’t figure out was this: how come Zimmerman didn’t identify the location ON THE SIDEWALK where he said his head was being smashed, so it could be tested for blood residue to substantiate his story that he was “beaten up?”

            Does it strike you that this would be the first thing the cops would substantiate? You have one dead guy, and one live guy who admits he killed him – based on this supposed head-bashing. The admitted killer is going to be in a heap o’ trouble if he doesn’t have an air-tight alibi.

            You’re a detail guy, Uni — tell me, if you were the lead investigator, what is the first thing you would check out?

            I’m asking for your opinion on this.

      • Malisha says:

        DeeDee had no idea the geography of the area; she only knew what Trayvon told her and, if she could visualize anything, whatever she could visualize. (Some people do a lot of that mental visualizing and others don’t.) I don’t think she could be aware of whether or not Trayvon was inside the gated community or outside the gated community when he stopped under a covered area (mail shed) for shelter from the rain.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          ” I don’t think she could be aware of whether or not Trayvon was inside the gated community or outside the gated community when he stopped under a covered area (mail shed) for shelter from the rain.”

          Which means she’d have no reason whatsoever to mention, or to even know to mention, anything about a gated area.

          Unless Trayvon specifically mentioned it to her.

          So unless he deliberately mislead her for I can’t imagine what reason, you either have to accept that what she said is correct or you have to accept that the testimony of the prosecution’s chief witness–pretty much their only real witness–is of no value.

          You can’t play cafeteria with her testimony and accept only the parts you like. It’s a package deal.

          unitron

        • Xena says:

          @Malisha. I was just listening to BDLR’s interview of DeeDee again and noticed something for the first time. She said that Trayvon told her the guy watching him was on the phone.

          Whonoze and the other guys did a great job analyzing the clubhouse videos. If I’m not mistaken, by tracking GZ’s headlights, they are convinced that GZ followed Trayvon before he called NEN.

          Trayvon’s phone records also provide that he was on the phone with Witness 8 at 6:54 p.m., and she said that is when Trayvon told her about the creepy guy following him. GZ’s NEN call was not made until 7:09 p.m. Therefore, he was on the phone while watching/following Trayvon, long before he called NEN.

          As Racer has told us, GZ’s phone records puts nails in his coffin. Prosecutors may not know what was said in GZ’s phone conversations, but they do know who he called or who called him, the times and approximate length of the calls.

          • racerrodig says:

            ‘As Racer has told us, GZ’s phone records puts nails in his coffin. Prosecutors may not know what was said in GZ’s phone conversations, but they do know who he called or who called him, the times and approximate length of the calls.”

            And time is running out…….The one here who thinks this should be oh so fair for Fogen and Fogen alone will crap their pants when they are made public. If Fogen has 1/16 of a live brain cell, he’ll ask for a plea……III=> Tick – Freaking – Tock <=III

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            The Fogen won’t get any plea deal because the SP has bigger fish to fry.

          • racerrodig says:

            As much talk as there is about a plea, I agree that none will be offered.

      • parrot says:

        @Unitron,

        It is NOT a package deal. One inconsistency or mistake or even a lie for that matter, does not necessarily invalidate the entire testimony of a witness.

        Jury instructions in a criminal case:

        In deciding what the facts are, you must consider all the evidence. In doing this, you must decide which testimony to believe and which testimony not to believe. You may believe all, none or any part of any witness’s testimony. In making that decision, you may take into account a number of factors including the following: 1) was the witness able to see, or hear, or know the things about which that witness testified? 2) how well was the witness able to recall and describe those things? 3) what was the witness’s manner while testifying? 4) did the witness have an interest in the outcome of this case or any bias or prejudice concerning any party or any matter involved in the case? 5) how reasonable was the witness’s testimony considered in light of all the evidence in the case? and 6) was the witness’s testimony contradicted by what that witness has said or done at another time, or by the testimony of other witnesses, or by other evidence?

        If you think that a witness has deliberately testified falsely in some respect, you should carefully consider whether you should rely upon any of that witness’s testimony.1

        In deciding whether or not to believe a witness, keep in mind that people sometimes forget things. You need to consider, therefore, whether a contradiction is an innocent lapse of memory or an intentional falsehood, and that may depend on whether the contradiction has to do with an important fact or with only a small detail.

        These are some of the factors you may consider in deciding whether to believe testimony.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          I don’t know how they managed to get it done so fast, but someone plagerized your original work.

          http://www.jud.ct.gov/ji/criminal/part2/2.4-2.htm

          unitron

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Parrot –

          Re: “In deciding whether or not to believe a witness, keep in mind that people sometimes forget things. You need to consider, therefore, whether a contradiction is an innocent lapse of memory or an intentional falsehood, and that may depend on whether the contradiction has to do with an important fact or with only a small detail.

          “These are some of the factors you may consider in deciding whether to believe testimony.”

          Thank you for that. VERY instructional.

      • gbrbsb says:

        @Unitron

        “And if she hadn’t told Bernie under oath that Trayvon was inside the gated area when he got under the mail thing, I’d agree.”

        and from a later reply:

        “You can’t play cafeteria with her testimony and accept only the parts you like. It’s a package deal.”

        I take on board what you note about “package deal” and agree that it has to be like that for it to work, but, not having the time to listen through the BDLR tape just now, dare I ask your eagle eyed person, are you absolutely sure DD affirmed that Trayvon was within the gated RATL community when he took shelter under the “shade” or “mail thing” and that it was the only time and community where Trayvon took shelter or could she have confused it with the “another complex” gated community?

        The BDLR interview, as I recall it, didn’t to leave anything crystal clear or finite, prime example the “hospital or somewhere”, nor did Bernie appear to allow DD to finish her own recounting of the events nor explaining in full what she wanted, more like he was guiding her to answer and explain only what he wanted, so are we absolutely sure DD fully understood what Bernie meant when he asked her if Trayvon was within the gated community when he sheltered under the mailboxes, and are we equally sure DD understood to which gated community BDLR was referring or could she have thought he was referring to the “another complex” of her letter/statement which was also a gated community and which since her letter/statement we know Trayvon decided to cross through.

        Just asking?

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          ” are you absolutely sure DD affirmed that Trayvon was within the gated RATL community when he took shelter under the “shade” or “mail thing” and that it was the only time and community where Trayvon took shelter or could she have confused it with the “another complex” gated community? ”

          Apparently Colonial Village has no gate, but Lake’s Edge Apartment’s are advertised as being a gated communiity.

          If you go to Google and click on the “Maps” thing at the top, to the right of “Search” and “Images”, and put in

          1000 Plantation Lakes Cir, Sanford, FL

          and then zoom in the result and pan up and to the left/west, you’ll see where the 7-Eleven is in relation to the entrance.

          I told you that to tell you this:

          I found a possible way for him to be in a “mail thing” in a “gated area” without having yet gotten to The Retreat at Twin Lakes, and it could fit the timeline of the calls, and what Witness 8 said, sort of.

          I don’t expect the location to be popular around here, or for that matter the video itself, or a certain reference to another video maker, but this is where I found it and I don’t know anywhere else to find the footage used.

          Go to:

          http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2013/01/23/like-a-shed/

          and play the video if it doesn’t start by itself.

          unitron

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Uni,

            Thanks for the link to DiWataMan’s video.

            Uni, would you call that structure a “shed”?

          • racerrodig says:

            He’s going to major in the minors until he gives you a headache so bad, you could cry. Tron, it was a pup tent……how about them apples.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “would you call that structure a “shed”?”

            Sort of depends on one’s definition of shed.

            I haven’t yet seen anything in Lake’s Edge, CV, or TRATL that I personally would call a shed, but then I haven’t seen close-up pictures of every building in all 3 neighborhoods, so maybe at least one of them has something somewhere in which they keep lawnmowers locked up out of the weather.

            Unlike the ‘mail thing” next to the clubhouse or the one in Colonial Villiage, this guardhouse looking thing at least sort of has walls, so it would come closer to my idea of what a shed is.

            (And it has the advantage of being part of the overall structure of a gated neighborhood, so perhaps might be considered inside the gated area without actually being on the inside side of the gate)

            But my idea of what a shed is has no relevence here–what we need to know is if Trayvon would have described it that way, or if he would have described it in a way that Witness 8 would have interpreted as, and perhaps therefore remembered as having heard, a shed.

            unitron

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Unitron

            Thanks, Uni. Most exotic “shed” I’ve ever seen – very “Mooresque” architecture, like something out of Arabian Nights. Or 1920’s bordello.. But Florida has always been exotic.

            Of course, we are trying to relate this to Trayvon’s take on condo architecture, and how he would describe it.

            So, we’ll see what the rest of the evidence brings forward.

            In the meantime, my mower is sulking something fierce. Just not keeping up with the Joneses, housing-wise.

            Thanks again for the input.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “In the meantime, my mower is sulking something fierce. ”

            Yeah, well ours either gets shoved into the shop/garage or under the carport depending on which one has an extra drop of space available at the time.

            Unfortunately now that we’ve been through summer and winter our 3rd season (Pollen) is here and that means that very shortly you know who will have to go out there and start shoving that mower around the yard.

            unitron

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Uni –

            re: “Unfortunately now that we’ve been through summer and winter our 3rd season (Pollen) is here and that means that very shortly you know who will have to go out there and start shoving that mower around the yard.”

            I HAVE THE SOLUTION FOR YOU!

            (scroll, scroll, scroll)

            BUY A CONDO! See how carefree they are?

            PSST – I know of some available in FL … cheap …

      • jo says:

        @ unitron. dee dee wasn’t there, she is recalling what she heard. Being that she couldn’t see what was going on and wasn’t actually there i guess she can describe parts that were clear and that she remembers word for word, but some of it must be her interpretation of what was said (unless she can remember everything everyone said to her …ever).

        But fine, if her testimony has to be thrown out because she is inconsistent or may have things out of order, then so be it, but by those standards GZ’s claim of self defense needs to be thrown out too…and if we take his blatant lies into account then surely his self defense claim should be drop kicked to the fucking moon….

        • racerrodig says:

          Tell ’em…..Remember tron is only interested in this being fair for Fogen and has stated it…..isn’t that the definition of “Zidiot”

      • Tzar says:

        @xena
        I have a feeling if Deedee’s pertinent testimony was impeachable, the state would not use her.
        I have a feeling that they have enough forensics and evidence to back her version. Between the GPS data and other witnesses who heard the killer say, “what are you doing around here” or the witnesses who saw the killer chase Trayvon North from his house,
        this won’t be too hard a task.

        in summary, there is very little need to suffer fools

        Let me put all your minds at ease by using the way back machine:
        The year was 2012, it was a simpler time. At a bond hearing in Seminole county, the following exchanges took place between A than much younger Wig Snatcher Supreme (WSS) and detective Dale Gilbreath:

        1: 29 : 07
        DE LA RIONDA: Isn’t it true, sir, that at least one witness described a person chasing another person in the back of that area where the murder occurred?

        GILBREATH: Yes

        ——————————————–
        1: 32 : 35
        DE LA RIONDA: And isn’t it true that the route that Mr. Martin was going to or I should say the 17-year-old young man was going to was in the direct — he was going directly to where he was living, where he’s — where he was staying, is that correct?

        GILBREATH: Yes.

        —————————————
        1: 48 : 16
        BD – Mr. Z never claimed that he chased, or ran after Mr. Martin, is that correct? (no) BUT you still have a witness who describes someone chasing another person from the area near where they ended up, in other words, from the area where Mr. Martin lived to the area where the MURDER happened.

        GILBREATH: Yes

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Good Work Tzar… I’ve added this post to the Master Revisable Timeline.

          We seem to have forgotten that there is a detective who testifies that Trayvon Martin was chased from his home, back to where he was killed.

          Although BDLR doesn’t go into what evidence there is that supports this claim of a chase from so far south of the T, we can bet that the detective will not testify about this under oath, nor with the Prosecutor ask for such testimony, if it were not a “carved in stone” fact!

          GZ supporters might just as well wrap it up right now!

          • Tzar says:

            this facts lay out the horrible truth
            this kid was chased by a crazy person who had been continuously allowed to chase other children for no reason. He had already chased a child to his house under the false pretense that that child had stolen a bike, this was proven false, yet it was the father of the child that had to be escorted out of the HOA meeting when he complained, the crazy person was protected from acknowledging his madness. On the night of February 26th, 2012, he decided to see just how much his community would sanction, he decided to push the envelop a little further to see if they would allow him to murder one of those children he would chase or profile ever so often.

          • Tzar says:

            we can bet that the detective will not testify about this under oath, nor with the Prosecutor ask for such testimony, if it were not a “carved in stone” fact!

            that is exactly my point, the state is not guessing, it knows these things

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “We seem to have forgotten that there is a detective…”

            Private investigator or member of law enforcement?

            unitron

          • Xena says:

            @Unitron
            Lonnie wrote:

            “We seem to have forgotten that there is a detective…”

            You have now asked:

            Private investigator or member of law enforcement?

            Lonnie said “detective.” You don’t want to know if it was a private detective. No. You want to know if it’s a private investigator. If it was a detective on law enforcement, I suspect you would come back arguing with Lonnie that he said investigator and ask for a link where the person is titled “investigator.”

            Unitron, you are an agitator, and it’s clear to me that you are assisting Zidiots in their efforts to make those on certain blogs appear stupid and ill-informed. Also, you are assisting in their claim that no one is able to answer their questions.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            People use the terms “private detective” and “private investigator” interchangebly.

            Detectives investigate and investigators detect.

            When someone says “detective” with no further specificity in a case that involves both the police and, as I understand it, a private detective or investigator working for the Martins or for Crump, it’s not unreasonable to want to know which was meant by “detective”.

            unitron

          • Xena says:

            @Unitron.

            When someone says “detective” with no further specificity in a case that involves both the police and …

            You are not that stupid. You consistently disregard the subject matter and then imply what others could be talking about to justify asking disruptive questions. Lonnie was referencing the first bond hearing. Did you see a private detective testify at the first bond hearing?

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            I do not read the entire page top to bottom, then reload it and re-read the entire thing, and then re-re-load it and re-re-read it, over and over again.

            I rely on the notification of new comment emails.

            If Lonnie had said

            “We seem to have forgotten that Gilbreath testified that Trayvon Martin was chased from his home, back to where he was killed.”

            I would have known who was being talked about.

            All I did was ask a simple question to obtain clarification.

            Then people started reading “motives” into it.

            The fact that a witness living near the area of the shooting says something like “I saw a couple of people run by my house” is not the same as “I looked all the way south to the end of the block and saw two people run several hundred feet up to and past my house” is a separate issue.

            unitron

          • Xena says:

            @Unitron

            If Lonnie had said …

            IOWs, in order for people to feel comfortable here, they have to go into line by line detail in every comment to compensate for your lack to wait until you’ve caught up with comments before asking them questions formulated to belittle them?

          • racerrodig says:

            Remember, majoring in the minors is the first sign of a troll.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I also told him where to go to read Tzar’s post and see the video she included with it. So, instead of asking a disruptive question, he could have simply gone and looked at the video. He chose to not look for the answer and instead stay here and ask a disruptive question.

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr

            He chose to not look for the answer and instead stay here and ask a disruptive question.

            The Zidiot wasp nest reveals their plots and plans so obviously even when they think they are using code. The current agenda is against Leatherman, and includes destroying his “false narrative” and showing that his “sheepple” have no knowledge of the facts and evidence; decided that GZ is guilty based on emotions (pics of Trayvon being an 8 yr old); are racists (goes back to when professor said that anyone supporting GZ is a racist), yada, yada, yada.

            When I see disruptive comments like those posted by Unitron, and comments posted on news articles that turn every issue to race, I know it’s the wasp nest following the White Supremacist agenda.

            Unitron is able to infiltrate because he plays a passive-aggressive game. The best to do is confront and challenge his BS so that the Zidiot wasp nest does not get the result they want.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Well the results they want are fading into the distance. They lose on everything they raise.

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr

            Well the results they want are fading into the distance. They lose on everything they raise.

            Stupid wasp nest actually makes it public that their agenda is to “destroy” Trayvon’s image, his parents, attorney Crump, and all pro-justice for Trayvon bloggers. IOWs, attack the BGI. Looks like Junior is trying to take the lead with his tweets.

          • racerrodig says:

            As a group, we are too smart and have too much solidarity for them. That’s one of the things they hate the most. We can have a civil conversation and go off topic in a pleasant way with no hassle. As a group, they cannot do that.

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig

            As a group, we are too smart and have too much solidarity for them.

            Well, the Zidiot wasp nest doesn’t discuss evidence and doesn’t want to. They prefer to talk about the BGI and since they can’t stop the discussion of evidence on this blog, intend to disrupt it.

            Here’s something for the wasp nest and Junior.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Jr has no idea of what he’s doing or where he’s going, I expect him to do something really stupid very soon.

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena- pirhanamom is the best at jousting against the unit Ron. Highly entertaining, too.

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            I think the best bet is don’t feed the trolls….talk around and never reply directly. His new name is “Delete”

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig But it’s slap a Zidiot month. 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            You’re right…..as you were.

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig
            🙂

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Wrong answer… I told you that it was Tzar who posted the reminder, I also told you that I had put a link to her post in my master revisable timeline. So, you should either look for her post or go to the master revisable timeline that you keep finding typos in, and look for the answer yourself. There’s a video there where she says that a 7:11 you will see the detective on the stand and hear him being questioned by BDLR. Or are we supposed to do that for you too?

            I find your questions to be silly, unnecessarily drawn out “gotcha” type questions that are neither helpful nor make important points when the answers are discovered, if they aren’t already know and haven’t already been answered several times before. You just constantly cause the discussions to get bogged down over trivia.

          • racerrodig says:

            Lonnie…this is what trolls do. Major in the minors, hi-jack the thread and intentionally misinterpret everything. This thread has now dropped to an all time low with him. It’s Booorrrrring.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I’ve been noticing that every time we get a good discussion going, he boggs things down in a welter of trivial corrections and attempted gotchas. We try to move forward instead he drags us backward into rehashing old stuff that’s long since been either settled or lost its relevancy. Worse yet, when answers are provided he ignores them and raise even more questions.

            He’s generated hundreds of emails and replies that have little if any practical interest for anyone, but they have stopped us from discussing what we want to discuss, in favor of defending against his trivia.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            here’s a hi-tech solution for you folks

            use firefox browser and download the ‘greasemoney’ add-on (which can do amazing things to enhance your browsing experience).

            greasemonkey is a conglomerate of script writers who devise ingenius ways of altering websites, be it facebook, ebay, or word press. their script site is called greasespot.

            i am directing you in particular to a script written for wordpress which allows you to ‘ignore users’. have fun guys 🙂

            http://userscripts.org/scripts/search?q=wordpress+ignore+user&submit=Search

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Thanks, lots of useful scripts there. But I’m from usenet so I never block anyone unless they’re waaaaayyyy off the deep end. Otherwise problems are better off faced than run from.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            that’s cool lonnie – i just wanted to share the possibility with those who are interested. i do find greasemonkey scripts to be quite handy and if you search around there, you may find ones you like too. the wordpress (and you can add other sites) adds a ‘troll hammer’ button onto posts so that you can easily block them – they can also be unblocked. just super handy sometimes 🙂

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Oh yeah, there are plenty of useful scripts there, I’ve saved the page to browse later. There’s plenty of useful stuff there and I’m going to get me some. 😀

          • racerrodig says:

            This is no longer Frederick Leathermans Law Blog, but the tron trivial garbage and crap show. That’s what trolls do.

          • racerrodig says:

            So tron is a private troll. Makes sense.

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig.

            So tron is a private troll. Makes sense.

            IMO, Unitron is a Zidiot infiltrator who is attempting to get comments posted that a certain Zidiot (who is obsessed with Leatherman) wants to use just before trial to paint this blog in a manner that we know nothing, believe GZ is guilty based on emotions, are racists, and unable to answer questions.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Apparently, since he could have simply followed the link I posted and answered this question for himself and left the rest of us alone. Instead he chose to not seek the answer himself, but to make an issue of the matter, to ensnare as many readers as possible in a discussion of nothing at all. I’m willing to vote for dismissal!

          • racerrodig says:

            He’s driven this thread to an all time low with stupid bullshit. Wake me when it’s over.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yep, I’ll have to agree Xena, the question he asked about the phone records is inconsequential beyond belief. It turns out that a call I had listed as 4 minutes long was in fact only 1 minute long and still overlaps the 18 minute call. He believes that because the call comes from North Dade, it has to be DD phone or no phone at all. As if DD is the only possible caller from whom Trayvon can receive calls from North Dade. I checked to see what he was talking about, and I not only discovered my error, but I also discovered that the error was so inconsequential, no thinking person would really have bothered, unless they had found something more to add, than that a small error had been made. I mean really, some days I have as many as 700 emails to read before I even get to surf the net for answers or pleasure. I’m sure most people here with blogs and email as well as “real lives”, couldn’t be bothered with inconsequential discoveries, but sadly that’s all that unitron has.

            I had hoped he had discovered an error of some importance that would, perhaps lead to even greater discoveries. Instead over the course of three days of “baiting” responses and queries, we’ve simply discovered a typo and that he had made yet another false assumption. I’m thinking like: “Unitron, we don’t need you to do that!”

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        In her interview with BdlR, DD doesn’t describe Trayvon’s walk to RATL. Now you can accuse her of claiming Trayvon was beamed back from the 7 eleven to the complex, or you can assume that she skipped that part, because she didn’t think it was important or she’d already told BdlR about that before they started recording her statement. The memo about DD’s interview does state that they were talking before BdlR said he asked if he could record the statement.

        According to Google maps, it takes about 14 to 15 minutes to walk from the 7 eleven to the clubhouse at RATL. Trayvon left the 7eleven at 6:30 pm, and if he arrived at the clubhouse around the time of the start of the 18 minute call, that is at 6:54, he would’ve had 10 minutes to take cover from the rain in CV.

        It is very clear that it was raining very hard around 6:55 pm. If you take the trouble you can observe it in the eastpool video. It appeared relatively dry between 6:46 pm and 6:54.

        The bank videos show that it was raining at 6:38 pm. I guess we call that phenomenon intermittent rain fall.

        So Trayvon running for cover in one of the breezeways of the appartment buildings in CV, and Trayvon running inside the mail shade at RATL at 6:54 pm, are not mutually exclusive.

      • Tzar says:

        1: 32 : 35
        DE LA RIONDA: And isn’t it true that the route that Mr. Martin was going to or I should

        1: 32 : 35
        DE LA RIONDA: And isn’t it true that the route that Mr. Martin was going to or I should say the 17-year-old young man was going to was in the direct — he was going directly to where he was living, where he’s — where he was staying, is that correct?

        GILBREATH: Yes.

        , is that correct?

        GILBREATH: Yes.

        It is important to note that the state believes they can show with certainty what route Trayvon took

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          The most direct route from the Mail kiosk to where he was living would have been up TTL to a cut through, then across the dog walk corridor to his house. This is nothing at all like what GZ describes.

          So, to catch him GZ would have to run up TTL to get behind him again. So, for a short time, after Trayvon turned off TTL to go through the cut through, he wouldn’t know that GZ had gotten out of his truck. He thought he lost GZ, because he expected to hear the truck coming after him. GZ, however, did not want to drive, because if he did that Sean would hear it. So he jumped out of his truck and ran, hoping to herd Trayvon back to the T, where leaving his truck there, would fit with and bolster his story about not having gone anywhere south.

          Trayvon didn’t go all the way back to the T, but instead stopped 40 feet short and GZ couldn’t get him to move north anymore, and worse yet, witnesses were popping out, preventing him from dragging Trayvon back to the T. Still he might have tried dragging Trayvon, but the effort would fail when Trayvon let himself fall to the ground. GZ had to go down there too, or his story of being assaulted would not work very well. They rolled as Trayvon tried to escape and GZ attempted to pin him.

      • Jun says:

        Perhaps, even if Trayvon was in the other complex, it could also be gated as well, you ever thought about that? Or perhaps Trayvon thought it was gated, told Deedee, but was incorrect?

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        @jun
        Trayvon was at the mail area at RATL when GZ called the nen. You check the eastpool video at 6:55 and you see it starts to rain hard. It was dry between 6:46 and 6:54. It was raining at 6:38 in the bank video. If Trayvon ran into RATL at 6:54 like DD thought he did, it would’ve taken 10 minutes longer to get to RATL than is necessary according to Google maps. The rain was intermittent, it makes sense he took cover in one of the breezeways of CV.
        According to a user on TL who visited the area and took photos, it is very unlikely that he paused at the mail area at CV. Apparently it is diificult to find, and really not a good place to hide from the rain.
        The user couldn’t gain access to LE, so I don’t think Trayvon
        would’ve entered

        It is highly improbable that GZ followed Trayvon from another complex.

      • I still think George Zimmerman is the ‘chief witness’ for the prosecution. But that’s just my .02.

      • pat deadder says:

        to Unitron I don’t know if the timeline fits but my theory is fogen spotted him at the other complex under the mail thingy.DeeDee says Trayvon is going to run from the back.Fogen also says somewhere as LLMP has pointed out He as in Trayvon didn’t look like he was getting his mail.DeeDee run from the back to me means he ran the path where all the kids did beside Taaffes house hoping to escape the creepy guy.then when he gets back on the street he sees him again.Zimmerman is such a liar we just don’t know where or what he was doing.DeeDee had no idea that this conversation was going to be so scutinized after all she was on the phone with him all day.After I hang up from a conversation and am asked what was said I’m hard pressed to remember exactly.

        • racerrodig says:

          Tron is baiting you. The timeline has already destroyed the I saw him at Taaffe’s already……months ago. It’s bad for your health to feed them you know.

      • Jun says:

        We wont know till we see the GPS records but even then, Fogen will have to take the stand

        Yall are overanalyzing it a bit

        DD can only say what she heard and there is no way for her to know the mapped out location of the area because she was only on the phone with Trayvon

        Considering that, she is amazingly accurate and sounds like pretty normal conversation

        It may not be word for word exact like Unitron the nazi wants it to be, but it is what it is

        Besides that, Fogen cant really do anything unless he wants to take the stand, swear an oath and submit to cross examination

        Keep it simple

        Phone records show that Trayvon was talking to witness 8 all day, the day of the murder

        During the stalking incident, Trayvon told DD he took cover under a mail thing, which Bernie straightened out to mean, a mail shed. Bernie can then point out with GPS the actual location during that time on the timeline they present to the court during trial.

        Trayvon tells DD there’s some creep stalking him, watching him in his car. Bernie can then bring up the NEN phone call, and that the mailshed is by the clubhouse. Bernie can then enter in the habit evidence of Fogen driving around by habit at night with his lights off.

        W8’s testimony is supported by witnesses and forensic evidence

        So even if we were to weigh the circumstantial character evidence of the hospital or somewhere issue, they have to take into account mitigating factors and how her testimony is supported by forensic and witness evidence, which shows she is being truthful regarding the conversation

      • LLMPapa says:

        amsterdam1234 says:
        April 8, 2013 at 1:08 pm

        It is highly improbable that GZ followed Trayvon from another complex.

        I’m not so sure, my friend. I think something else has to be considered.

        In this graphic, I separated three consecutive sentences from W8’s hand written letter accompanying BDLR’s recent response to a defense motion to further illustrate their sequence.

        First, Trayvon went to another complex. THEN he noticed someone was following him, and THEN decided to find a shortcut.

        I’m not aware of anything in his path of movement that more readily qualifies as a “shortcut” than the footpath at the end of Taaffe’s unit. It’s the only part of his likely journey that wasn’t on a public sidewalk or street.

        Coupled with her verbal statements, it seems to me she’s saying SOMEONE was following him before he got to the shortcut.

      • parrot says:

        @PiranhaMom,

        Yes, it does shed light on this subject.
        These jury instructions about how to evaluate the weight one would give a witness’s testimony are standard in every criminal trial that I have worked in the Middle District of Florida and elsewhere.
        It is simplistic to assert that testimony is a “package deal.”

        BTW, love your sense of humor…

    • Rachael says:

      **He basically told Singleton what really happened. “have you ever had to shoot anybody?” he asked, when she said no he didn’t say “oh you are lucky you haven’t been nearly beaten to death”…no, he said something like “i guess no one would question your authority”. Case closed.**

      So chilling, so true. That does pretty much close it, doesn’t it.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Amazing isn’t it? That taking a life, in his mind, boiled down to who had authority to do so and not be questioned. He actually thought he had the juice and felt put upon with the questioning.

  13. kllypyn says:

    What i posted on another blog in response to a nut job….HE is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law this is not a court of law.He admitted killing Trayvon. He is just trying to lie his way out of it.There is never a justification for killing an unarmed person especially a kid. he was the aggressor. when you chase someone they have a right to pop you one if they chose to because you are obviously up to something. If trayvon had known he had gotten out of his truck to chase him he would have kept running. We know he grabbed or did something to cause trayvon to yell get off which his girlfriend heard before his phone cut off he was also heard yelling get off during that infamous 911 call. Trayvon never touched him and if someone punches you you punch back you don’t pull a gun and kill them while they beg for their life.what the hell did you think Zimmerpunk was gonna do when he got out of his truck to pursue? Invite Trayvon home to dinner let him burrow his truck? Offer him a job? he was not going back to his truck he told the dispatcher to call him and he would tell him where he’s at. He knew the general direction Trayvon was headed,toward the rear entrance which by the way Brandie Greens home is just across the street from the rear entrance. Two tiny injuries is hardly a brutal beating a few scratches is hardly a brutal beating. His nose was never broken you need glasses if you can’t see that even if it had it would prove nothing. The photos taken at the police show his nose was never broken it’s perfectly normal and no swelling. every photo of him taken that night prove his fairy tales to be lies. Have you not been paying attention?
    all he had was scratches. no bustd lips no broken nose no black eyes no facial bruising and he needed no medical attention which he would have needed if he had been beaten like he claims. I know about being brutally beaten i had busted lips 2 black eyes my face was swollen i had a bloody nose but thankfully it wasn’t broken my head was also repeatedly slammed against a hard surface,I was knocked out,when i came to i was behind a building. Trayvon never touched him. He simply tried to escape. Zimmerman tried to detain trayvon,trayvon knew nothing about this man never knew the police had been called he had every right to resist. Zimmerman got angry and killed him despite his cries.he didn’t just kill him while he screamed for help he interrogated him before he killed him. It is impossible to repeatedly slam a persons head into the sidewalk the way he described. 1 you would not have enough leverage especially a kid with no special fighting skills or training. The human head weighs 8-12 lbs.and because of the way the head and neck move you cant repeatedly slam the head into the sidewalk in the way he describes with enough force to cause any harm. plus he had no hair to hold onto., The DNA report which you didn’t read shows trayvon never touched him the autopsy report which you didn’t read shows Trayvon never touched him,The ballistics which you didn’t read,shows he had Trayvon restrained by his shirts when he killed him which would explain the panic and desperation in his screams before he was killed. His own statements refute his claims his own reenactments refute his claims.his lack of injuries consistent with his story refute his claims. the only thing he told the truth about that night is his name. his gun was on his waist at his rear hip it would be impossible for him to unholster his weapon aim and fire at Trayvon’s chest while he was laying on his back getting beaten. those are his own words. the only way he could have killed trayvon the way he described is if he knocked Trayvon off then aimed and fired his gun which means he was not defending himself when he killed him. THE LACK OF ZIMMERMAN BLOOD OR DNA ON TRAYVIN’S HANDS FINGERS OR KNUCKLES OR UNDER HIS FINGER NAILS PROVE HE NEVER TOUCHED HIM. THE ONLY BLOOD WAS HIS OWN. THE LACK OF BRUISING OR SWELLING ON TRAYVONS HANDS OR KNUCKLES PROVE HE NEVER TOUCHED HIM. TRAYVON Made no effort to defend himself at all. He simply tried to escape but he couldn’t. Trayvon was innocent he did nothing. Zimmerman had a history of violence against women police harassing people including his neighbors coworkers. he has a history of reacting violently when things don’t go his way. Trayvon never did any harm to anyone. I find it tiresome and irritating that you and people like you keep saying there is no evidence to refute his claims. there is a mountain of evidence. He had no right to even approach trayvon. He had no right to try to detain trayvon. He had no right to pull a gun on Trayvon. He sure as hell had no right to aim a gun at Trayvon’s chest while he screamed and cried for his life and kill him. all while interrogating trayvon and terrorizing him. while Trayvon was desperately trying to break free from his grip. Zimmmerman is a bully a liar and a murdering punk and he should be treated as such.

    • kllypyn says:

      You really need an edit button so i wont have to repost to correct my typos.

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @Kllypyn

        Kelly, when you write long essays (as I do sometimes) your best bet is to write it in whatever word-processing program you have, then spell-check to your heart’s content, add extra white space for clarity, and edit it to a fare-the-well.

        Then hit copy, go to the Leatherman site, and hit paste.

        Done in a flash, and you will be happy and proud of the result.

        Also, try reading it aloud to yourself before the transfer. Spell check doesn’t catch a word you’ve spelled wrong if what you’ve entered is a real, live word in itself. On one topic I once made a big, righteous issue – but left out the “L” in the key word.

        The word was “public.”

  14. kllypyn says:

    What i posted on another blog in response to what a nut job said….HE is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law this is not a court of law.He admitted killing Trayvon. He is just trying to lie his way out of it.There is never a justification for killing an unarmed person especially a kid. he was the aggressor. when you chase someone they have a right to pop you one if they chose to because you are obviously up to something. If trayvon had known he had gotten out of his truck to chase him he would have kept running. We know he grabbed or did something to trayvon to yell get off which his girlfriend heard before his phone cut offg. he was also heard yelling get off during that infamous 911 call. Trayvon never touched him and if someone puncheds you you punch back you don’t pull a gun and kill them while they beg for their life.what the nhell did you think Zimmerpunk was gonna do when he got out of his truck to pursue? Invite trayvon home to dinner let him burrow his truck? Offer him a job? he was not going back to his truck he told the dispatcher to call him and he would tell him where he’s at. He knew the general direction Trayvon was headed,toward the rear entrance which by the way Brandie Greens home is just across the street from the rear entrance. Two tiny injuries is hardly a brutal beating a few scratches is hardly a brutal beating. His nose was never broken you need glasses if you can’t see that even if it had it would prove nothing. The photos taken at the police show his nose was never broken it’s perfectly normal and no swelling. every photo od him taken that nightprove his fairy tales to be lies. Have you not been paying attention?
    all he had was scratches. no bustd lips no broken nose no black eyes no facial bruising and he needed no medical attention which he would have needed if he had been beaten like he claims. I know aboput being brutally beaten i had busted lips 2 black eyes my face was swollen i had a bloody nose but thankfully it wasn’t broken my head was also repeatedly slammed against a hard surface,I was knocked out,when i came to i was behind a building. Trayvon never touched him. He simply tried to escape. Zimmer tried to detain trayvon,trayvon knew nothing about this man never knew the police had been called he had every right to resist. Zimmerman got angry and killed him despite his cries.he didn’t just kill him while he screamed for help he interrogated before he killed him. It is impossible to repeatedly slam a persons head into the sidewalk the way he described. 1 you would not have enough leverage especially a kid with no special fighting skills or training. The human head weighs 8-12 lbs.and becaue of the way the head and neck mjove you cant repeated slam the head into the sidewalk in the way he describes with enough force to cause any harm. plus he had no hair to hold onto., The DNA report which you didn’t read shows trayvon never touched him the autopsy report which you didn’t read shows Trayvon never touched him,The ballistics which you didn’t read,shows he had Trayvon restained by his shirts when he killed him which would explain the panic and desperation in his screams before he was killed. His own statements refute his claims his own reenactments refute his claims.his lack of injuries consistent with his story refute his claims. the only thing he told the truth about that night is his name. his gun was on his waist at his rear hip it would be impossible for him to unholster his weapon aim and fire at Trayvon’s chest while he was laying on his back getting beaten. those are his own words. the only way he could have killed trayvon the way he described is if he knocked Trayvon off then aimed and fired his gun which means he was not defending himself when he killed him. THE LACK OF ZIMMERMAN BLOOD OR DNA ON TRAYVIN’S HANDS FINGERS OR KNUCKLES OR UNDER HIS FINGER NAILS PROVE HE NEVER TOUCHED HIM. THE ONLY BLOOD WAS HIS OWN. THE LACK OF BRUISING OR SWELLLING ON TRAYVONS HANDS OR KNUCKLES PROVE HE NEVER TOUCHED HIM. TRAYVON Mad no effort to defend himself at all. He simply tried to escape but he couldn’t. Trayvon was innocent he did nothing. Zimmerman had a history of violence agaunst women police harassing people including his neighbors coworkers. he has a histpry of reacting violently when things don’t go his way. Trayvon never did any harm to anyone. I find it tiresome and irritating that you and people like you keep say there is no evidence to refute his claims. there is a mountain nof evidence. He had no right to even approach trayvon. he had no right to try to detain trayvon. He had not right to try to detain trayvon. He had no right to pull a gun on trayvon. He sure as hell had no right to aim a gun at Trayvon’s chest while he screamed and cried for his life and kill him. all while interrogatng trayvon and terrorizing him. while Trayvon was desperately trying to break free from his grip. Zimmmerman is a bully a liar and a murdering punk and he should be treated as such..

  15. Jun says:

    In a capital case, can you find the person guilty but not give a green light on the death penalty?

    • Rachael says:

      Not all states have the death penalty – and not all capital cases result in a death penalty in the states that do.

      • cielo62 says:

        Jun and Rachael- the are going for second degree murder so the death penalty is not an option in this case.

        Sent from my iPod

      • Rachael says:

        I realize that, but that wasn’t the question. But you are right. I’m just saying even in a first-degree murder, it is not always an option.

      • Rachael says:

        But of course I messed up. She said capital case – which is a death penalty case. Duhhhh. But this is not a capital case. I think it is bedtime now. I guess what I was trying to say is not every murder is a capital case. Time for bed now. Sheesh.

      • Jun says:

        I know its murder 2

        I was just curious because I was watching Arias on TV and they say its a capital case

        So I was wondering if they can find her guilty but not have to give a green light on the death penalty

        • If the jury finds her guilty of capital murder, the case will proceed to a penalty or sentencing phase. After both sides present their respective cases, the jury must decide whether to sentence her to death or to life without possibility of parole.

          The answer to that question depends on whether the jury decides that the mitigating evidence outweighs the aggravating evidence.

    • Trained Observer says:

      In Florida, on Murder 1, a jury can recommend life instead of Old Sparky. The judge weighs the jury’s recommendation before sentencing. And, yes, I (just like Rachael) know Fogen is up on Murder2.

      • Approximately 5 years ago, SCOTUS decided that a judge cannot overrule a jury recommendation for a life without parole sentence in a capital case. The legal basis for the decision is the Sixth Amendment right to a jury trial.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Thank you, professor. Clearly, there’s been change since I was a juror on a murder1 case. In Florida, death row inmates also now have the option of choosing between the needle and Old Sparky.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          in utah, convicts on death row are awaiting a firing squad, if you can believe that. while the method was outlawed in 2004, those who chose this prior to that date are ‘entitled’ if you will.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Faux,

            I’ve always wanted those facing the death penalty (which I believe should be applied rarely), to always have an additional choice of form of execution — “Death by the manner in which the victim died.”

            The choice would be made by the victim’s survivor.

          • cielo62 says:

            Pirhanamom- I feel likewise. But where would we find a similar sick scum to carry out the sentence?

            Sent from my iPod

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Cielo –

            Forgot to add that the victim’s survivor(s) get to make that choice ONLY if the convicted murderer has not chosen one of the traditional methods of execution..

            Who would do the dastardly deed?

            Unfortunately, I bet there would be a thousand applicants.

  16. Lonnie Starr says:

    X2 Professor, but then, the treehouse is not a bastion of legal knowledge. 😀

  17. Malisha says:

    NEWSFLASH:

    Patty Burke in Melbourne, Florida apparently discovered, when she bought a package of Pepperidge Farm “goldfish” crackers, that one of the crackers appeared to have two little indentations on it: one in the shape of a cross within a circle, the other the shape of a crown. She took this as a sign of the divine, or a MIRACLE.

    I warned the same thing I say about Sundance: DO NOT TRUST THAT CRACKER!

  18. colin black says:

    Xena I found the recording from the phone in radio show were foggagge bad mouths the police ect claims he went on citizen patrol an the officer pointed out good areas to sleep on the job ect .
    As if a serveing officer is going to divulge info like that to an outsider.

    Anyway anyone want to hear his rant listen here

    • Malisha says:

      Yeah he did that as a favor to Bill Lee and the Bill Lee contingent.

      Weird speech pattern. What’s wrong with him?

      • Xena says:

        No Spanish accent from GZ. Gee. How did that suddenly come about on his FB page to “friends”?

      • PiranhaMom says:

        Malisha, to me that’s a garden-variety “TV American accent,” not weird.

        Only “weird” contrasted to what we’ve heard – GZ sucking up to the cops, contrasting his whining and wheedling for over a year now. Sounds straight-forward (although he doesn’t know beans about the subject – you can’t arbitrarily revoke a police pension). I don’t catch ANY Hispanic, Afro-Peruvian or ass-kissing yes’m and yassir on that tape. Thanks for Colin for locating.

        I notice the gratuitous slam at MayorTriplett for getting the Fraternal Order of Police endorsement in the election.

        Over strenuous objections of Bill Lee, Triplett forced the release of the NEN311 tape. Must have been Sweet Karma!

        The only thing I recognized of Fogen on the tapes is the “ums.”

      • Trained Observer says:

        Here’s a guy who’s flunking out of school, has a rap sheet, a sketchy work history, and a fiasco financial status twarranting a part-time job in order to pony up the rent … yet he’s got time to show up at commission meetings, and the audacity to get up and speak … even though he A.) isn’t a taxpaying property owner B.) bases his squeal on police practices on his few “ride-alongs” and C.) knows next to squat about pension eligibility. What an ego-driven dullard.

        And what was Bill Lee doing even giving this jackass the time of day? Somewhere on the Sanford PD are some eye-for-an-eye cops willing to tell what they know …

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      Doesn’t sound like the soft spoken, over polite Fogen we hear on all other recordings.

      • gbrbsb says:

        @ChrisNY~Laurie
        No he certainly doesn’t, does he? I bet this is the intolerant, angry aggressive and bullying GZ that Trayvon met up with that February 26th, not the “yes sir”, “no sir”, “three bags full sir”, version. Just shows how he reacts when he feels empowered.

    • Xena says:

      @Colin Black. THAT’S THE ONE. Thanks so much.

    • Jun says:

      This is pretty much typical Fogen modus operandi

      The cops were up to no good, so Fogen attacked them

      Fogen’s ex was up to no good, so he attacked her

      It’s more of the Fogen “everyone is suspicious” act

    • colin black says:

      Was foggage complaing about two lunches?

      • Xena says:

        @Colin Black. I think it was a lunch and a going away party. For sure, since GZ was with him, he ate too. But there’s that “thin grey line” that GZ doesn’t want others to cross. And here we were thinking that he really didn’t use lines from movies. 🙂

  19. boar_d_laze says:

    “He would have a conflict of interest because he would be in possession of inside information obtained from his client, plus all of the discovery that has not been released to the public, and advising the HOA to settle before the criminal trial.”

    You’re talking about Mr. O’Mara breaching his duty of confidentiality, which isn’t the same as the a conflict of interest.

    A conflict of interest isn’t just about holding confidential information. A conflict of interest occurs whenever two clients represented by a single attorney (or law office) have adverse interests.

    If Mr. O’Mara made use of confidential information gained in the course of representing Mr. Zimmerman that would be a breach of his duty of confidentiality to Mr. Zimmerman.

    One of the reasons governing the rules preventing conflicts of interest is that it’s assumed that an attorney representing clients with adverse interests would be sorely tempted to use confidential information gained in the course of representing one to help the other.

    In this case, Mr. Zimmerman and the HOA DO have adverse interests, so for Mr. O’Mara to represent or advise the HOA would be a conflict. Setting aside the duty of confidentiality to Mr. Zimmerman, if Mr. O’Mara advised the HOA in any way at all, he would be subject to sanction by the court and to discipline by the Florida Bar.

    I knew two attorneys who had marginal COIs and refused to take care of them after “informal” advice from the court, but before being ordered to do so. In both cases, they were ordered to discontinue ongoing representation, received fines and were reported to the Bar. The Bar fined them again, and ordered them to retake the ABA’s Ethics exam. In other words, wrist slaps.

    If Mr. O’Mara breached his duty of confidentiality as described by the “conservative” blogger and Professor Leatherman, Mr. O’Mara would most likely be subject to pretty serious sanctions. In California, suspension would be almost certain. I doubt the Florida Bar has a better sense of humor.

    More than likely the whole thing is Sundance Cracker’s BS fantasy.

    BDL

    • boar_d_laze says:

      I should add…

      If the HOA’s representative came to Mr. O’Mara and said “we’re thinking of settling but won’t do so if it will hurt Mr. Zimmerman’s defense.”

      And Mr. O’Mara replied, “Not a problem for us. Go ahead.” That would NOT be a COI.

      BDL

    • Welcome back, BDL.

      Thanks for clarifying that issue.

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @BDL –

      Glad you’re back!

      This whole issue is inexplicable – but nothing has surfaced in writing. “More than likely the whole thing is Sundance Cracker’s BS fantasy. ” has more going for it than anything in the press so far.

      “Consider the source … “

    • gbrbsb says:

      @boar_d_laze

      As our corniest British talk-show host always says, “Nice to see you, to see you nice.” Thanks for the insight; the known, “More than likely the whole thing is Sundance Cracker’s BS fantasy.”, and for the unknown, “Mr. O’Mara would most likely be subject to pretty serious sanctions”… and welcome back!

  20. O’Mara’s alleged approval of the settlement agreement does not shock us because we had already figured out that the defendant has no defense.

    His alleged approval merely confirms what we already knew.

    Of course, this must be devastating news to the defendant’s supporters and financial contributors who must be wondering, WTF?

    That is why they are in such disarray and attempting to find some way to spin this news in their favor.

    Ain’t gonna happen.

    My questions now, assuming the news is true:

    1. Is the defendant going to attempt to fire O’Mara?

    2. Will Judge Nelson let him?

    3. If she does, will West take over?

    4. Does he want to?

    5. Is the defendant indigent?

    6. Will a public defender be appointed?

    7. Will the trial date be continued?

    Stay tuned.

    • two sides to a story says:

      Last I looked, the Treestump was already desperately spinning this as a brilliant move by O’mara to . . . um, well, the logic tied me in mental knots, so you’ll have to go read the anonymously authored post yourself . . .

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @Two Sides —

        Maybe O’Mara posited that he could advise the HOA to “take the hit” because HIS CLIENT, George Zimmerman, was NOT an owner, thus NOT a member of the HOA, thus would NOT have to pay an assessment if one was needed for the settlement …

        If the HOA Board consulted with O’Mara for legal advice, then they are even dumber than we think. Or are they ready to admit that Zimmerman was their UVC?*

        Bernie should have further interviews with Jenna …

        *Unrestricted Vigilante of Choice

      • Rachael says:

        Yep. They thonk this is wonderful and proop posotive there is no way GZ will be convicted

      • Rachael says:

        Oops texting, fat fingers

    • racerrodig says:

      As my dad used to say “…and the plot thickens”

    • ay2z says:

      To question no. 1, I’m betting some of this turning of the tide about O’Mara and the HOA question, might signal a disgruntled client, but why now?

    • Trained Observer says:

      To me, West appears dense when appearing before Judge Nelson. Yet is it not likely that he has more scruples than O’Mara has apparently shown? Not betting the farm or the back 40 on his taking over, though, if O’Mara gets the boot from either the defendant or the bench.

    • Jun says:

      1) I think it would make for good TV if the defendant fired his lawyers and then represented himself

      2) I think she would just appoint West and allow it, no need to waste time

      3) Yes

      4) I dont know

      5) Hard to tell

      6) Maybe

      7) No

      • racerrodig says:

        Could you imagine him representing himself. I’m sure just before the verdict is read we’ll hear this…

        “…..um, your honor, um, I need a recess to use the men’s room…..Oh, you officers can wait here, I’ll be right back”

      • Puck says:

        Like he could get through the window.

      • Jun says:

        LOL We’d probably see Serino and the bailiffs tackle Fogen when he tries to bail

    • jo says:

      if O’Mara was originally going to defend gz without payment then why, if all the money they solicited from racist America has been spent on security, hotels and take-away, can’t Omara go back to waiving his fee. Either that or one of them could get a job. Jnr would be a perfect candidate for Fox News, he puts on so much spin he makes O’Reilly dizzy.

  21. I just saw the comments at the shithouse. and I wanna know why they are still discussing the IMMUNITY HEARING???? LMFOA!!! didn’t they get the memo?? or are they still listening to the voices???LOLOLOLOL I can’t stand it, they are soooooo stupid!!! stupid, dumb as a box of rocks stupidddddddd!!!!! and in denial bigtime!! LOLOL

    and they can’t stop hating on omar! it looks to me that they hate omar so they can blame their loss ( and when gz is slapped with cuffs and shuffled off to prison for the next 25 to life ) on him instead of the fact that gz is guilty as hell. they gotta find a fall guy for their failures just like gz!! it’s interesting that the zimmerlovers are zimmer-like themselves!lolol

    btw: 63 days 5 hours 27 minutes 3 seconds till JUNE 10, 2013

  22. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Look what George believed :

    l. George believed he was watching a real suspicious guy because the guy was walking casually in the rain and looking about and looking at houses.

    2. George believed this guy was up to no good even though he didn’t know what his deal was.

    3. George believed himself to be scared of this guy when the guy walked toward gz’s vehicle with his hands in his waistband, and so George rolled up his vehicle’s window instead of identifying himself.

    4. George believed himself not to be scared of this guy, and so he immediately exited his vehicle to chase after the guy the moment the guy ran.

    5. George believed it was safe to continue on to RVC after agreeing not to follow guy.

    6. George, still not returning to his vehicle, believed it was not safe to give out his address to the dispatcher because he didn’t know where the guy was.

    7. When asked by this guy what George’s problem was, George believed he did not have a problem.

    8. Even though George believed he did not have a problem, he believed he needed to reach for his cellphone to call 911.

    9. George believed he fell down backwards on the T.

    10. George believed he did not fall down backwards but instead just fell down at the T.

    11. George believed did not fall at the T but stumbled south from the T and then fell down 20 feet south of the T.

    *********12. George BELIEVED that he needed to shoot THE SUSPECT in order to save his own life.*******

    13. George believed he needed to immediately get on top of THE SUSPECT after shooting him in the heart in order to hold him down.

    14. George believed he could not hold THE SUSPECT down by himself so he asked the “the man with the flashlight” to assist him in holding down THE SUSPECT who was shot in the heart.

    .

    DONTCHA think all of George’s beliefs were SCREWY enough to PROVE that his #12 BELIEF above is NOT CREDIBLE?

    • racerrodig says:

      Well stated……I wonder who wrote his crime script??

    • two sides to a story says:

      Great one!

      • “What made you think he was suspicious?”

        “It was raining.”

        • racerrodig says:

          AND he wasn’t training. Hell, I’m looking at houses right now, make something of it ?? Opppps, my bad, that’s not suspicious. Sorry !

          • LOL that means everybody living in the Pacific NW is a potential criminal, at least on the days they’re not working out.

            Just re-read the Florida self-defense jury instruction, and it has language about making every effort to get away, if you will. Now, I know GZ will claim he was on his back, but problem is, the blood was flowing the other way. Other thing is, even if TM were a card-carrying bad person, which he wasn’t, GZ would have had to have known that ahead of time….and…”It was raining” just doesn’t get ‘er done. Seriously. There’s a lot of stuff to get through on the self-defense jury instruction. This whole case will come down to who is on that jury, nothing more and nothing less. They’d best get some jury experts and I mean some people with some sense that can be verified.

          • Xena says:

            @Crane-Station

            Just re-read the Florida self-defense jury instruction, and it has language about making every effort to get away, if you will.

            Yeah, and O’Mara wants to skip to the end rather than starting from the beginning. Well, let’s put aside the beginning that if not but for the fact GZ got out of his truck to follow, and did follow Trayvon, the two would not have met. Let’s skip to the part where GZ says Trayvon appeared out of nowhere and asked, “You got a problem?”

            Rather than GZ saying “I don’t have a problem” turning and walking away, he stands face-to-face with Trayvon and starts going through his pockets. According to GZ, he was looking for his cell phone to call 911. GZ lied to Trayvon because he wanted to call 911 to report his problem — a problem that he stood face-to-face with rather than trying to get away.

          • A very simple “I am with neighborhood watch and I was just making sure [fill in blank]” would have been another option. I know we’ve discussed this before, pretty much ad nauseum, but the jury instruction is pretty detailed, on a deadly force self defense claim.

          • Xena says:

            @Crane-Station

            …but the jury instruction is pretty detailed, on a deadly force self defense claim.

            BINGO! That is why arguments that go around the mountain numerous times on issues such as Witness 8 seem so elementary. If there were absolutely no witnesses, and if GZ does not take the stand, his NEN call, physical and forensic evidence convicts him.

      • ay2z says:

        Crane, if raining makes one suspicious, I’ve been real real real suspicious all afternoon, and now I’m not suspicious any more, buy my soaked coat sure must be! It’s hoodie worked wonders though, and luckily no one reported me to the police.

      • Jun says:

        Going after someone with a gun, seems to contradict the idea of “trying to get away”, as it is the opposite of that idea

        And Trayvon yelling “Get Off” also contradicts the idea that Fogen was trying to get away from the dangerous “black dynamite”

        How much more of this idiotic charade from the Fogen’s do we have to go through?

        • racerrodig says:

          “How much more of this idiotic charade from the Fogen’s do we have to go through?”

          Oh…..until sometime in June / early July. Then he’ll be wearing a matching suit with the rest of the cell block.

          “SheLie…….does this make me look guilty, er, fat”

      • “What made you think he was suspicious?”

        “It was raining.”

        Zimmerman: Uh… It was raining, he was looking into the houses, looking behind, looking at me, he wasn’t walking quickly to get out of the rain, he didn’t look like he was trying to head home, he didn’t look like a hardcore athlete that wanting to like train in the rain or anything. He just looked out of place.

        And there you have it——> He looked out of place. How dare Trayvon walk around in the neighborhood purposely….at night!

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Isn’t it funny that people who are not racist, never have to say that they are not racists? While people who are racists always have to say that they are not racist. That’s probably because the people who have to say that they are not racists, have either said or done something that racists do.

          Anyway, GZ loses big time here, because we know that Trayvon Martin was not looking into other peoples houses, because he was not a thief or criminal looking to commit some crime, but just a kid trying to get home to watch the game. So, all this talk about looking in windows, hand in waist band and on drugs or sometin are just a bunch of self serving lies GZ concocted in an attempt to make his plaguing of Trayvon Martin, somehow acceptable.

          It is not! Fogen was told not to play cop, not to follow and not to carry a firearm on patrol, specifically because the Police told him that he could become the danger that nobody needs. A danger to yourself and the neighborhood because you do not have the training nor the expertise, nor the temperament needed to properly evaluate or respond to threats. So, if I didn’t know better by now, I’d be saying that you, Fogen, killed a kid because you thought police work was easy. Of course, now that I know that you went around telling everyone that you were white, before revealing your “proud Hispanic heritage” that you kept hidden, I now realize you killed this kid, in some foolish attempt to prove that you are actually a privileged white man. Not the “Afro Peruvian” you claim to be, now that you’re in front of a judge and facing a trial.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Jun, also going after someone with a gun, contradicts a claim of self defense. everyone connected to this trying to sweep a murder under the proverbial rug, should be facing charges for obstruction of justice. these people shouldn’t be allowed to get away with what they did.

        There will be no true justice for Trayvon, if those who tried to help his murderer get away with his crime is not prosecuted themselves.

      • Rachael says:

        “He just looked out of place.” Oh did he now? And why was that?

        Give me an effn break. Did GZ say hey, sir, you look out of place, is there anything I can help you with? I mean it is possible that because he was visiting, it was dark, Trayvon might not have been familiar with exactly where he was and was looking for landmarks.

        Of course we know GZ couldn’t POSSIBLY have thought that Trayvon looked out of place because he was BLACK!!!

        • cielo62 says:

          Rachael- y’know, GZ was using his Spidey Senses to find the bad guys.

          Sent from my iPod

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            If this is his idea of playing policeman, that resulted in the death of an innocent civilian, then GZ needs to be removed from society forever. He was told not to do that, he was asked not to do that, he was warned that this was something he was not supposed to be doing, yet he did it anyway and he killed an innocent child. I say lock him up and throw away the key. He seems to think that he had some kind of authority, that was a delusion. He should have known that, because he was taking law courses, and the first thing they teach you at law is, the differences between suspicion and and facts. Not only was he unable to grasp the difference between imagination and reality, he cost an innocent child his life, simply because he refused to listen to anyone. So, right, wrong, good, bad or indifferent he needs to be gone!

          • racerrodig says:

            It looks like his “Don’t mess with the man” thinking went wayyyyyy to far. And he thinks someone with more than 2 brains cells with electrical activity still buys that crap.

            How many days??? 62 going on 61 I believe.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Taaffe said all Trayvon had to do was answer the questions! I hope BDLR has asked Taaffe what those questions were.

  23. Soulcatcher says:

    Just remember there may be other factors invoved. What is the obligations as far as security, were they suppose to have a guard on patrol or drive through during different times. NW doesn’t count. The HOA is suppose to provide a safe and secure place, which means all the camera’s should be in working order and all common area’s to be well lit, gates locked, ect. Those duties fall to the property management co. Normally, when you have property managment, there is a section or a percent that are rentals. The law here in CA, states if there are more than 16 rental units, there must be at least one employee (manager, or maintenance person) live onsite to respond to emergency calls. You must stay on the property, and if you leave you must respond to that call within 15 minutes. In larger complexes you will more than likely have more than 1 employee onsite so they can rotate the on call duty. They are paid straight time for the first 8 hrs, time and a half for the next 4, and double after that. If you are required to live onsite, they can only charge you no more than 2/3rds the value of rent, or $423.51, whichever is less.
    My husband worked for property management for 25 years, and for many of them, we lived onsite. The inspections to the property are no joke. Small violations are a warning, larger ones will result in a heafty fine to the owner. Florida laws will differ.

    My husbands comment re Omar conflict of interest: He knows he’s guilty. They only needed to hear Taffee, yeah George saved my property from one of those colored’s, it was always them kind trying to burglarize us. When you grow corn, you get corn, Omar got popcorn.

  24. Jun says:

    News Announcement

    The Omara Trolls are all throwing an internet hissy fit at everything everyone here writes and what Freddy writes

    LMAO

    They be slamming down hard on they keyboards, son

    Internet gangs in effect

    • racerrodig says:

      Everyone ?? Man, I hope they mention me…..I loathe them and one cyber – stalked me to no end last year so “Game On Zidiots”

  25. CherokeeNative says:

    Just for the hoot – you all should go to the tree house and read the “Good Grief (Late Night Discussion Thread” and when you finish there, go over to Ditwattaman’s “Payout” thread and read the back and forth between Danny and Sundance. Pretty comical. Danny calls Sundance out for his conspiracy theories and “insider information.” Pretty comical to see the implosion of the treepers IMO.

    • Jun says:

      they are a group of internet trolls that stab people in the back, so naturally, I can see them as a group stabbing each other in the back

    • Stunned disbelief and panicked desperation as little by little more people wake up and realize the case was nowhere near as open and shut as they thought.

      Agreeing to settle a case for more than $1 million cannot be casually dismissed as nuisance value to make the case away and no defendant settles for that much money in a provable self-defense case.

      Nope, the sirens are wailing and the ship is going down.

      Mayday

      Mayday

      Glub, Glub.

  26. kenteoth says:

    If M’OM did that he deserves to be disbarred and kicked off the case…..I hope the official information surfaces soon

  27. Jun says:

    I did a little investigating, okay, let’s call it accurate speculation

    Sunprance Cracker is a right wing wacko and probably full of crap

    Thank You

    Anyways, I think at most, Omara just perhaps got a copy of the settlement and perhaps got news that Crump was going to sue Fogen afterward…

    I doubt any HOA with millions would go to Omara for legal advice

    • PiranhaMom says:

      Jun,

      Youv’e got the be kidding, that the HOA for RATL has “millions.”

      No HOA ever has enough in the reserve, even for deprecation (the primary responsibility of reserves).

      For protection against liability, they rely on insurance.

      FYI, for my HOA, I insist on insurance as the first priority, and my Board joins me in seeing that it’s paid in full, in advance, even if funds must be temporarily transferred from the reserve. While it can be paid monthly (offset in the budget by the standard monthly HOA fees received from owners), in the event of disaster that could discombobulate the daily affairs of the HOA (e.g. wildfires or earthquakes) I want that protection in force.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Smart way to play it, Piranha. Too many condo boards see the reserves building and cave to unit owners wanting to spend down on silly stuff without giving thought to upping insurance protection. It’s become quite clear on this board that there’s a lot of misunderstanding on how condo HOAs like R@TL work (or should work), as opposed to neighborhood civic associations.

      • Jun says:

        Well they are ccovered by millions, otherwise, they would not have coughed up over a million without fighting it out in court

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Jun –

          But we don’t know yet WHO is paying the settlement $$$.

          If there is an insurance company involved (and Travelers says there is, “but it’s not us,” – to paraphrase), then it can be a combination of:

          1) the HOA’s original carrier (insurance company) and/or

          2) the HOA management company (which was contracted by the HOA to manage the facility – and, perhaps, provide services to the HOA Board, like writing and sending out its newsletter), and/or

          3) a chunk paid out of the HOA reserve, and/or

          4) future assessments levied on the owners of the 260 units at RATL, and/or

          5) insurance paid on behalf of the HOA Board Members by the insurance companies that carry their personal insurance, including “umbrellas” that usually start at $1,000,000 (say, in case your dog bites someone).

          My bet is that the company that would take the biggest hit (the “deep pocket”) scrounged around and found EVERY source of liability and laid a share on them. Including legal fees, likely.

          That’s why you have insurance company lawyers and adjusters.

          It’s what they do.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Jun — Condo and co-op HOAs have their own real estate attorneys and management companies, which also have their own attorneys, typically specializing in the real estate management law realm.

      HOA reserves (which can run in the millions, depending on how ritzy the complexes and how many units are paying in) are held in anticipation of big inevitable occurences like replacing roofs, resurfacing pools, repairing or replacing gates, elevators or fountains , and offsetting storm/hurricane/flood damage not covered by insurance.

      When the real estate bubble burst, a lot of condo boards
      suddenly found themselves in a budget squeeze. Owners (especially recent buyers or those who’d treated their units like ATMs for home equity loans) had bought high and suddenly were underwater without ability to refinance. Renters including deadbeats like Fogen sometimes opted not to pay rent, leaving owners without a revenue stream to pay the HOA quarterly maintenance, much less their mortgage or tax bill.

      Once units got foreclosed on, banks (at least in Florida) have not been known to rush in to pay HOA fees. Prospective buyers then shy away from short-sale or foreclosure units, knowing they’ll be liable for the back-due HOA fees. Meanwhle, the HOA has ongoing expenses for lawncare, pool maintenance, etc. that put a drag on reserves, meant for the aforementioned big stuff, not monthly expenses.

      In conclusion, therefore … 🙂 🙂 🙂 … just let me say I wholeheartedly agree with your speculation that Sunprance Cracker is a right wing wacko and probably full of crap.

      • Jun says:

        I have never liked HOAs

        They have never done anything for anyone that owns homes and are forced onto home buyers

        It’s undemocratic

        • cielo62 says:

          Jun- agree wholeheartedly. Hate hate hate HOAs.

          Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            When we decided to move back in 91 we looked at having a house built where there was an HOA…….

            No Trailers
            No Boats
            No Race cars
            No Campers
            No hanging laundry outside
            On and on

            No racerrodig then…….

            Oh and the fees were in the area of 5K a year.

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Jun,
          @Cielo.

          You would love my HOA. We aim to serve. And now that we’ve thrown out “the dogpoop Nazis,” we do.

          Nobody ever put a gun to anybody’s head to buy a condo. If you do, watch your HOA like a hawk – and get off your ass and serve. (Tough talk, but it’s working here.)

      • Jun says:

        My point is that an HOA should be a choice, not a predicament added on

        99% of HOA’s are Nazis

        I pay for my property, that is all that should be cared for

        I need my lawn cut or whatever service, I pay for that myself

        I dont need an HOA nor does anyone else

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Jun.

          You pay for your property and mow your own grass — because it’s YOUR property.

          But those who buy into condos (not those who rent) made the decision to own and control only what’s INSIDE their unit – and share the responsibility and cost for the structural elements, exteriors, grounds and amenities – pools, gyms, golf greens, etc. with all other owners.

          Bluntly, they made the decision to be INSIDE capitalists and OUTSIDE communists.

          Not your choice, and I commend you for this. Double-commend you!

          Renters in condos are free agents, responsible financially only to their individual landlords.

        • cielo62 says:

          Jun- I agree again, based on personal negative experience with mine. They should be voluntary. I resent paying for stuff I don’t even use.

          Sent from my iPod

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Also, HOA’s turn neighbors into nutjob Nazis who become unable to mind their own business. In my subdivision, we’re 26 houses with no amenities. (collective status allows developer to increase number of building lots on the acreage beyond what zoning would allow, for greater profit- that’s why the USA has 60,000,000 people in 300,000 HOA’s).

      • aussie says:

        Jun
        if there’s no HOA who is going to look after the COMMON property? those parts of a condo complex that are shared by all owners? like the pool, clubhouse, lighting, security, roads and sidewalks?

        That’s what a HOA is for.

        If you say a management company can do all that — who will decide WHICH management company? who signs the contract with them? who will decide to get rid of one if it is not performing?

        HOA’s are elected by the owners. If they’re “nazis” then the owners elected the wrong people. But it is in their hands to change that.

      • aussie says:

        I want to add, it’s no more undemocratic than having a COUNTY or a STATE, both of which pay for a lot of things ( partly using your taxes) that you will never use.

        You don’t use the roads? the lighting? the commonly-owned roof is not keeping rain off YOUR head??? that roof is maintained in part from money collected from another owner who is not in that block.

        Same as you may never go near the state freeway — but doesn’t your food get delivered along that?

        If you don’t want to contribute to the common good, GET OUT OF USING IT, too. Go live on an island and do everything for yourself.

      • Bill Taylor says:

        for Aussie please, no disrespect is intended but you need to select better examples, the roads are paid for by the people that use them in the gasoline tax 18 cents per gallon federal and more than that to most states, and the folks that dont drive on them DO pay for the things other use those roads to bring closer to the buyer…..the lighting? i paid 100% of the cost of having the pole set and the line run from the trunk line and i pay every month for every watt we use(plus various city state and federal taxes)……the roof? yes we had a leak and replaced our roof not long ago and we paid 100% of the cost.

        i accept the responsibilities that come with having liberty

      • Jun says:

        I have lived in condos and do not even use the stuff or even notice anything they do because it does not benefit me, and then they molest my or my family’s bank account

        Sounds unfair to me

        The other parts of the condo are really not my problem

        The real estate developer built the damn thing and it should be up to code

        No bearing on me

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Jun,

          All anybody has to do is read the fine print before buying into a condo, to know what to expect. Then attend HOA meetings and see who represents you. Take notes. Run for office if you don’t approve of the representation.

          If you buy into my association, try not to treat me like the concierge.

          By law, I am an unpaid volunteer.

          You will find that I am also fighting FOR YOU.

          50 years from now when you do not have the verve you have today, Jun, you’ll like having a champion.

      • Jun says:

        Still

        I do not want to take care of the neighborhood or complex

        I only want to have the responsibility for my own property

        I already have taxes and pay for cops, ambulances, doctors, streets, lights, etc

        • fauxmccoy says:

          well jun – the answer is obvious then — do not buy a condo.

          honestly, as a lifestyle, it works for many people, especially the elderly. we know it works for them, because they willingly buy condos knowing full well what the deal is. my elderly mother is delighted to not have to worry about the roof needing repair and gets to enjoy a maintenance free pool. when she was 20 years younger, she maintained her own home, but at 75 this works great for her.

          the purchase price of a condo is generally less than for a stand alone custom built home, but has many of the same amenities. it’s a trade off of some freedom at the price of HOA dues.

          if it does not work for you, the answer is just as simple. do not buy one. it’s rather silly to buy a condo and then complain that you cannot cut your own grass because the truth is, you do not have your own grass. by the contract a condo owner agrees to, they share each blade of grass in common with other tenants.

  28. bettykath says:

    http://newsone.com/2359067/trayvon-martin-settlement/

    excerpt:
    “More from the Tribune:
    …….
    “The association’s insurer, Travelers Casualty and Surety Co. of America, filed suit in federal court in August, asking a judge to clarify its liability in the case, but that suit was dropped in November.

    “Travelers is not a party to the settlement,” the company said in a prepared statement. “The settlement would have been with other insurers of the homeowners association and/or the property managers.”

    “The policy had a $1 million limit, according to federal-court records, and went into effect March 30, 2012, a few weeks after Trayvon was shot. Trayvon’s mother filed a claim with the insurer after it went into effect, according to federal-court records.

    “During an interview in February, Zimmerman’s attorney, Mark O’Mara, said Trayvon’s parents had tried to settle through mediation and the association or its insurer had offered $1 million, but Trayvon’s parents had rejected that amount.

    “O’Mara said the two parties then renewed talks and agreed to settle several months ago.

    • Bill Taylor says:

      that last part makes no sense at all…it says they turned down a settlement offer in February which is only TWO months ago, and then they started new negotiations and reached a settlement “several months ago”?????

      • bettykath says:

        The February reference is to MOM’s statement. The lawsuit was filed months before. So, file in August, turn down offer in, say, Oct., reopen negotiations later. Speak to MOM in Feb.

      • Bill Taylor says:

        ty for the clarification, i did read that wrongly, but still find that they settled several months ago on a law suit that was just filed about 7 months ago, then had negotiations that broke off and then got restarted would be called settled “several” months ago….the way i use several months ago would still include the month it was filed., as in a “few” would be more than couple but less than several, few = 3 to 6 or so, and several being 7+

      • Trained Observer says:

        Bill, speculation here: Maybe they reached a settlement agreement in principle several months ago, but turned down a specific number that failed to address tax issues, legal fees, etc. Crump likely holding out for better terms, got the deal sweetened and the settlement ended up being “more than a million” with the insurer picking up some or all of the fees as well.

        Of course that’s no excuse for reporters who fail to repair holes in their own stories or editors who let them slide.

      • Malisha says:

        If I were the lawyer for the HOA, one of the most important pieces of factual I would need before deciding whether and how to settle this case would be what took place at the HOA on March 1, 2012. That is something I tried to FOIA and the SPD pretended they had NOTHING on it, although it was reported, and not denied, that Chief Lee was there and “a council member” from the City Council.

        Hmmmmmm….

        If I were that lawyer, and I found out that something inculpatory had occurred on March 1, 2012 when “a member had to be escorted out of the meeting,” I would settle for whatever it took to get the thing settled before the trial. AND, almost more important, BEFORE the feds came out with their report on the investigation of the SPD.

        I know full well something pretty shocking must have gone down on March 1, 2012 at that HOA meeting.

    • @ BK, you missed the best part!
      from the article just posted!

      “As previously reported by NewsOne, Trayvon’s parents, Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton, filed suit against the Retreat at Twin Lakes subdivision in August, 2012.

      Under the heading “Neighborhood Watch,” the neighborhood’s newsletter’s recommended that residents first call police and then “please contact our Captain, George Zimmerman … so he can be aware and help address the issue with other residents.”

      Their endorsement of Zimmerman, who claims to have been acting in that capacity when he profiled, stalked and ultimately killed the unarmed 17-year-old, left them vulnerable to legal action.”

      • and I recommend watching the video with renee! it’s surprising, but I must admit in the video interview renee is defiantly setting that other idiot reporter straight who’s acting like he doesn’t understand WHY the HOA would possibly want to “settle this thing” and should have “fought it in court” since they-the home owners, didn’t have anything to do with it. he sounds offended at the very thought of this settlement for Trayvon’s death. my oh my, why would anyone pay this kind of money for the likes of Trayvon???? ****says faux news idiot guy!

    • gbrbsb says:

      Just lifted this letter posted on TL yesterday evening in the discussion in respect of this issue. It shows the HOA decided NOT to challenge Travellers’ declaratory action, presumably because they were going to lose and which is presumably why Travellers dropped the action. It appears mediation went ahead on October 26 last.

      From: Tom Slaten [redacted]
      Sent: Monday, October 08, 2012 1:27PM
      To: Catizone, John
      Cc: Paula Aitken
      Subject: Travelers v Retreat at Twin Lakes Homeowners’ Assoc., Inc. I Estate of Trayvon Martin v. RTLCase
      No. 6:12-cv-1185-0ri-18TBS

      Mr. Catizone,

      As you know, I am corporate counsel for Retreat at Twin Lakes Homeowners Association, Inc. Your client, Travelers Casualty and Surety Company of America, filed a declaratory action against the Association and Sybrina D. Fulton in Case No. 6:12-cv-1185-0ri-18TBS. You were kind enough to grant my client, Retreat at Twin Lakes, an extension of time to respond to your client’s complaint and offered to grant an additional extension past the upcoming October 26, 2012 mediation.

      However, there are several Court imposed deadlines that require action if the Association wishes to dispute your client’s declaratory action. Based on my review of Travelers insurance policy attached to your declaratory complaint the Association has
      decided not to challenge your client’s declaratory action in the above styled case. Therefore, please feel free to file a motion for default against the Association. If you require a formal letter please let me know.

      Thomas R. Slaten, Jr.
      Attorney at Law
      Larsen & Associates, P.L.

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        “It shows the HOA decided NOT to challenge Travellers’ declaratory action, presumably because they were going to lose and which is presumably why Travellers dropped the action.”

        Just to be clear for the sake of future readers, this refers to the HOA not being able to prevail against what was basically Travelers saying that they were not the insurance company on the hook for paying out if the HOA lost against the Martins, and does not refer to the HOA losing the suit brought by the Martins or the HOA’s opinion of how that suit would be decided.

        Apparently Sybrina did something that involved Travelers and Travelers decided to get out ahead of things and get a court to declare that they weren’t the party that would be liable if it were decided that someone was.

        When Travelers went to court to get the declaratory action that they should not be involved in the suit, both the HOA and the Martins, as the parties who were involved, automatically got to contest that if they wanted to.

        This letter is the HOA saying they aren’t going to contest that, and basically admitting that the particular Travelers policy under discussion does not obligate Travelers in the grounds which are the basis of the Martin’s suit.

        unitron

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Uni,

          Yes.

        • Xena says:

          @unitron

          Just to be clear for the sake of future readers, this refers to the HOA not being able to prevail against what was basically Travelers saying that they were not the insurance company on the hook for paying out if the HOA lost against the Martins,

          Not exactly. The HOA gave Sybrina the claim form. After Sybrina filed it, the HOA wanted Travelers to represent them on Sybrina’s claim. From Petition For Declaratory Relief


          12. The Policy contains the following relevant exclusion:

          IV. EXCLUSIONS

          The Insurer shall not be liable to make any payment for Loss in connection with any Claim made against any of the insureds:

          1.based upon, arising out of, directly or indirectly resulting from, in consequence of, or in any way involving bodily injury, sickness, mental anguish, emotional distress, disease or death of any person, provided that this exclusion shall not apply to allegations of mental anguish or emotional distress if and only to the extent that such allegations are made as part of a Claim of Wrongful Employment Practices.

          13. Travelers is in doubt of its rights under the Policy and, by this Petition, seeks a declaration of its rights and obligations with respect to the claim and demand made by Fulton upon Travelers and The Retreat at Twin Lakes as a result of the fatal shooting of Martin, and a finding by this Court that under the above-referenced Policy of insurance Travelers has no duty to defend or indemnify The Retreat at Twin Lakes in connection with the Fulton claim because coverage is precluded by the above exclusion.

          On or about November 2, 2012, after stipulating to extending time to the HOA to file an answer that the HOA failed to file, Travelers dismissed their petition without prejudice.

        • gbrbsb says:

          Wow Unitron!

          But in my defence I think you could give credit that my explanation was a tad more succint!

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “But in my defence I think you could give credit that my explanation was a tad more succint!”

            Absolutely it was, but there’s so much talk going around that the HOA settled because they knew Zimmerman was guilty and they knew they’d lose the suit that I wanted to make it clear that this had nothing to do with that.

            I have no idea what the HOA thinks about Zimmerman’s chances in court (although they are what they are regardless of what the HOA thinks), and I don’t know if they thought they’d lose the civil suit or if whoever the insurance company that is on the hook for the payout decided they didn’t want to spend a bunch of money on lawyer-ing and still wind up at the mercy of a jury that might decide based on not liking their lead attorney’s neckties.

            unitron

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Uni,

            Wouldn’t take a unanimous jury, would it, to find against the insurance company(ies – or other potential payer) ?

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “Wouldn’t take a unanimous jury, would it, to find against the insurance company(ies – or other potential payer) ?”

            I cheated and used Google.

            According to

            http://www.greeneandtischler.com/trialPractice.htm

            “In Florida, a civil jury trial consists of six (6) jurors (except eminent domain cases). The verdict must be unanimous.”

            So you need 5 people who hate the ties and one guy that they didn’t find out had a beef with an HOA years ago and has been looking to get even ever since.

            unitron

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Uni –

            And is it prohibited to inform the jury that the HOA has insurance coverage, and how much?

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “And is it prohibited to inform the jury that the HOA has insurance coverage, and how much?”

            I would think someone would object to any attempt to introduce that on the grounds of relevance, although the jury could probably figure out for themselves that the HOA probably had insurance of some amount, and if one of them had a long standing grudge against an insurance company that went undetected, that’s one fewer juror that has to hate the neckties.

            unitron

          • gbrbsb says:

            @Unitron

            Ta.

            Etiquette aside, if you cast your eagle eye over the Zed team sites their interpretation is the other way round… and they’ve got a string of reasons too!

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “Etiquette aside, if you cast your eagle eye over the Zed team sites their interpretation is the other way round… and they’ve got a string of reasons too! ”

            Their interpretation of the existence of a settlement between the Martins and the HOA (and whatever insurance company), or their interpretation of Travelers getting a ruling that said it wasn’t their problem, regardless of how the suit went?

            unitron

          • gbrbsb says:

            @Unitron
            My mistake, should have quoted your text. Zed team got it the other way round to this:

            “…the HOA settled because they knew Zimmerman was guilty…”

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            They think the HOA settled because they, the HOA, knew Zimmerman was innocent?

            Or do you mean that they mean that the Martins accepted a quick settlement because they, the Martins, knew Zimmerman was innocent?

            unitron

          • gbrbsb says:

            The Martins, of course. That’s why I said they had a string of reasons… bad school records, DD’s lies, etc.

      • Malisha says:

        BUT the HOA would also have the option of paying a bunch of lawyers and having them: (a) get the action dismissed in a quick minute because there was no evidence of any negligence on the part of HOA; (b) get the action dismissed in a slow year or two because they could always buy new neckties; or (c) get the action dismissed on the merits because they were confident that any six people would see that the HOA had no responsibility for what had happened.

        Most people consider possibilities like this as alternatives to forkiing over a million or more dollars. On the OTHER hand, most people would think their chances pretty grim if they realized that the evidence of their own negligence and even their own misfeasance and/or malfeasance was so great that even a pink necktie couldn’t save them given the average intelligence of any six people.

        I still think it comes out to this general conclusion: the HOA, advised by attorneys, came to the conclusion that they had better pay up and get this thing out of the way before the REAL load hit the BIG fan.

        In that respect, the HOA settlement has a LOT to do with a legal assessment (sorry Dersh, sorry Baez) of the strength of the Zimmerman case.

        And remember, even if Fogen had killed in self-defense that night, he was not supposed to be patrolling with a loaded gun so he would have had to defend himself in a non-lethal way, were the HOA not remarkably negligent about educating its “captain.”

        • Xena says:

          @Malisha. Remember the interview with the HOA’s president? He didn’t know who GZ was until he received calls from residents reporting a man with a clip board coming to their homes.

          Had I been HOA president finding GZ was doing that without Board authorization, I would have stopped him in his tracks. He would have needed to fill out an application and agree to a background check including a credit report. The last thing NW needs is someone with an arrest record, and also behind in bills, knowing when residents are not home.

          Then, as a personal concern, I would have asked GZ how was he going to handle being NW Captain when having a full-time job and attending college? As a reasonable alternative, since his wife was unemployed and not looking for work, I would have asked why she did not volunteer for NW.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Of course it would not be a big help to the HOA to have the jury learn that, someone with a complaint about the NW Captain was escorted out of the room without his complaint being received, filed or heard.
          I’m sure the last thing the HOA would want is, a jury drawing conclusions from that kind of evidence. 😆

        • gbrbsb says:

          What style and colour the neckties?

      • Malisha says:

        Oooh Oooh gbrbsb, I beg you don’t use “Zed Team” to refer to the outhousers — the Zed Team was a nonprofit organization that promoted “zero tolerance for child abuse” and that ran out of money years back because they had all operatives on their team and no fundraisers and everyone who needed their help had no money and no influence. Still, I would hate to see them confused with the Outhousers! Team Zim is OK — OK?

  29. bettykath says:

    http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html
    /content/news/articles/cfn/2013/4/5/trayvon_martin_s_par.html

    Excerpt:
    “Crump asked that the agreement remain confidential. However, the court has decided that there is no reason for the agreement to remain confidential, and is giving Crump 10 days to appeal that decision.

    “We have learned that the homeowners association’s insurance company did not have to pay out a claim on the case.”

    • Rachael says:

      Why would Crump want to appeal his decision? Aren’t settlements often kept confidential?

    • itsallboutmeash says:

      The key word left out of the article is “current”

      “We have learned that the (current) homeowners association’s insurance company did not have to pay out a claim on the case.”

    • Judy75201 says:

      This is the same “news” article I linked yesterday that, at that time, said O’Mara was party to the settlement.

  30. SearchingMind says:

    @ Professor

    According to Rule 4-1.7(a) of the Florida Rules of Professional Conduct:

    A lawyer shall not represent a client if the representation of that client will be directly adverse to the interests of another client, unless:

    (1) the lawyer reasonably believes the representation will not adversely affect the lawyer’s responsibilities to and relationship with the other client; and

    (2) each client consents after consultation.

    (…).

    IMO, even if the story is true, O’Mara may still be able to wiggle out of problems. We do not know what GZ has signed on/consented to, while O’Mara is not the most kosher among jurists.

    • Depending on the facts, he may be able to wiggle off the hook, but probably not without looking pretty bad in the process.

      Unless there is absolutely no truth to this story and he had no role in or knowledge of the settlement, except to have been informed after the settlement that no agreement was reached concerning his client’s potential legal responsibility for Trayvon’s death.

      • Malisha says:

        This looks to me like a flap that didn’t originate in the real world. This is even less likely to lead to a continuance than a PTSD motion, in my opinion.

  31. Mary Davis says:

    @ SeachingMind. I dread that scenario too. To many things can happen between now and another 6 months. I don’t know of any other reason for O’Mara to be involved in this law suit, unless it is to get off the case or to stall for more time for GZ’s criminal trial. Whatever his advice, it seems O’mara took a great risk where his client is concerned. What about the NBC suit? Is O’Mara representing GZ on this suit as well?. I am not a lawyer, but it looks like a conflict of interest to me.

    • colin black says:

      There is no next six months its April seventh next up is May then
      JUNE 10TH.
      Maths not my forte but by my count makes two months 2 days till trial 62 days is way short of 6 months

      • Mary Davis says:

        @ Colin. I know that it’s only two months til trial. I was talking about if there is a six month continuance because of O’mara getting involved in the Fulton/Martin lawsuit. I don’t know what O’maha is up to. I am curious as to why O’mara would advise the insurance company to settle, especially at this time. Seems to me this would only hurt his case in the criminal trial. Anyway
        i’m just confused.

      • Trained Observer says:

        After months of talks, a civil settlement with the HOA has been reached. Period. Who would think there’s any reason whatsoever for a six-month criminal court continuance on a civil issue that’s been settled?

    • SearchingMind says:

      Yeah, Mary. O’Mara is a co-counsel in the NBC suit. But there is no conflict of interest there since there is only one client (GZ), one interest (money) and one goal (money 🙂 ).

  32. Ty Flair says:

    Lol!! here we go again with this smoke screen,do you really think HOA care about what Omara thinks. They are covering there behinds because there lawyers know fogen is guilty.I bet Omara found out about the settlement just like we did.I give Grump and his team the credit for reaching this settlement. It seems when Sundance say bad things about Omara some people want to believe him,so if you want to believe that believe every other mess he post over there. Sundance and Omara are brain washing alot of people with weak minds. So go ahead and play into Sundance little game,he got you where he want you. Omara is playing the same game,but his game is to brainwash a juror out there somewhere. These two Omara and Sundance are just making money off the stupity of people.

    • Rachael says:

      I don’t know if the HOA actually feels he was guilty, but they know he wasn’t a homeowner, they know he carried on “patrol” they must have known he was behind in rent. He certainly wasn’t an “employee” and they sure didn’t want to take any responsibility for his actions, guilty or not – so easier to pay because if he is found guilty, so are they, and for a whole lot more.

      • Ty Flair says:

        @Rachael the HOA is looking at the same evidence that we are looking at. The HOA have lawyers way better than Omara they could spend millions to fight this,but they know they have know case and fogen is guilty. Omara has no case,but the raciest think he have a case so as long as they send that money Omara will play that game and take there money.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Has it ever been determined how many months of back rent Fogen owed? And he had a job, up until the murder, … so what was his excuse for failing to pay rent. And if money was that tight due to their humongous grocery bill, why didn’t the missus go out and get a job?

        Deadbeats like this are one reason some condo boards insist that a unit owner can only rent to people with certain FICO scores and prompt payment records.

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Trained,

          The HOA cannot interfere between the owner and how he rents, his standards for renting, and who he rents to.

          The tenant is not responsible for the HOA fees or assessments.

          The owner is. But owners or their rental agents should set the standards you cite,

      • Trained Observer says:

        “The HOA cannot interfere between the owner and how he rents, his standards for renting, and who he rents to.

        The tenant is not responsible for the HOA fees or assessments.

        The owner is. But owners or their rental agents should set the standards you cite.” — Piranhamom

        Piranha — That may be the case where you are, but it’s not at many Florida complexes. (I happen to personally support the position you stated, but that doesn’t make it so.)

        For both long-term and seasonal leases in the Naples area, HOAs routinely demand an application from a unit owner’s renter with employment, vehicle registration, etc., etc., etc., PLUS (and this vexed me no end) how much the owner is renting the unit for along with a check for $100 per applicant, per year, even if the seasonal renter returned consecutive years.

        (One thing the HOA overlooked, however, in drafting their rules and regs was my ability to legally rent out the garage for a vehicle during hurricane season with no info on who or how much owed to anybody.)

        Rationale on above outlined oppressive regs is to prevent just what happened to R@TL — deadbeat scum like Fogen.

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Trained,

          Great info, Trained. Will see what I can use here. But frankly, we have renters here who are more responsible than resident owners.
          I came here as a renter after my farmhouse burned. For various reasons, I bought the unit and stayed.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Piranha — One other thing, the HOA I dealt with also cracked down on any new unit owner’s eligibility to rent. Language adopted about five years after the developer departed required that owners be in residence two years before being allowed to rent out. Board thought it had that sewn up tight to keep out a big influx of renters (and certainly to bar all convicted felons or known sex offenders), but they neglected to consider trust situations where a trustee as the new owner wasn’t “new” in a legal sense,

        Two Sides would appreciate… Nobody wants to see a complex go downhill because owners flee and rent to folks like Fogen. Yet to mindlessly interfere with an owner’s right to rent to whomever they please (when it’s their own investment risk) also creates drawbacks.

        The R@TL board was truly myopic to endorse Fogen (a renter in arrears likely to be evicted ) for any kind of NW role whatsoever.

        And that’s not even getting into whatever cozy biz deal Fogen might have trying to finaggle with the board. Had hoped some of those details would spill at trial, but that may not happen with the civil HOA settlement in place and BDLR likely to KISS.

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @ Trained –

          A recent amendment to the CA 1985 Davis-Stirling Act now permits HOAs to put restrictions on the renting of future sales – must be owned for two years before renting. That’s an option available to us, but not mandated. As I reported, we have had some wonderful renters and I was a renter myself in the old days (not saying how “wonderful” I was, though). Frankly, there’s a lot to improve before we impact owners economically, especially in this housing market, which, like many across the country, was hard hit.

          I am dedicated to keeping people in their homes, FIRST, before anything else. We can always plant new petunias later.

  33. i don’t believe that that freak has inside info. about omar being involved in repping the HOA. the main reason is because everything he said about this particular issue has been said a long time ago on the os website.
    another reason i don’t believe him is because he’s been saying he has all kinds of bombshell info and never produces anything that’s not been made public on national TV. that and that every time he’s said something about a bombshell it’s never been revealed until it’s AFTER it’s been printed or broadcasted! that’s when he comes out and decides it’s OK to let them in on it, after the fact!

    i think he’s just another self-important, self aggrandizing, self promoting moron trying to make HIS website THE place to go for the inside info! i just don’t believe him.

    • Rachael says:

      I have to agree with you.

    • racerrodig says:

      “i think he’s just another self-important, self aggrandizing, self promoting moron trying to make HIS website THE place to go for the inside info! i just don’t believe him.”

      I believe there is no doubt. To quote his target “….I think it’s, well, undisputed…”

    • Jun says:

      He’s bananas

      He should not even be a manager at a Publix

    • cielo62 says:

      Shannon- you hit the nail square on the head. SD is a delusional wanna-be, not much different than GZ.

      Sent from my iPod

      • that’s right, a wanna-be just like gz! birds of a feather!!

        I’ve only read the tidbits posted here and to me it sounds exactly like gz when he wrote emails to the COP in Sanford! oh I also read another letter he wrote to the masses about not covering gz’s case or whatever it was, awhile ago.. yeah that guy is trying to act as if he’s somehow involved in gz’s case.. except he sorta is since omar is actually LISTENING To them!LOLOLOLOLOLOLO omg I just can’t believe it!!!!!

  34. SearchingMind says:

    “What frightens us most in a madman is his sane conversation.”

    I would not want to engage in the fallacy that a thief/a liar could never tell the truth, even for once. SunDance might be mad, but remember that “in every madman there is a misunderstood genius whose idea, shining in his head, frightened people, and for whom delirium was the only solution to the strangulation that life had prepared for him” (Antonin Artaud).

    It is generally accepted that settlements of civil cases between legal persons/Cooperation’s and private individuals whereby the former pays out huge sums of money to the later are a results of business decisions by the former. In making such business decisions, the factor that plays the decisive role is ‘the chance of winning/losing’ the case in court (and the huge consequences of losing). After lawyers for a Cooperation have made a pure legal analysis and come to the conclusion that the private individual’s case has a reasonable/very good chance to succeed in court, they will advise the Cooperation to limit the damage and settle the matter asap (they are obliged to do that).

    In the present case, the HOA’s Insurer would not pay out almost $2mil in damages for wrongful death if it thought that GZ had a valid/reasonable case of self-defense and/or Stand Your Ground and as such IMMUNE from criminal and CIVIL liability. IF GZ is immune from civil liability, that immunity would also extend to the HOA. To make the necessary calculations and come to the right conclusion, the HOA would depend on someone in the know – i.e. O’Mara – for advice. IF GZ has a strong self-defense case, the HOA will fight or at least delay until after the Immunity Hearing. $2mil is a staggering amount of money and can bankrupt a business. No one pays out that amount just to have some peace of mind.

    So, I am giving Sundance the benefit of the doubt (and he argued his case well), WHILE hoping that he is hopelessly WRONG, because if he is not, O’Mara would depart the scene. And ‘that’ would force a (6-month) continuance in this case. I dread that scenario.

  35. Mary Davis says:

    If GZ was not a party to the lawsuit, why would Attny Crump give him a copy?. What am I missing?. Xena where are you?.

  36. LLMPapa says:

    I know this is O/T, but we spend so much time talking about what’s wrong in this crazy world, take a moment and watch something that’s as RIGHT as anything I’ve seen in a long, long time.

    From yesterday’s Nebraska Cornhusker’s annual Spring Game:

    Run Jack Run!

  37. ay2z says:

    From NYTimes article– about Stuzman getting the public part of the settlement from the court clerk. Is this settlement supposed to help the murder defendant by discrediting the parents of a killed child?

    “Settlement Is Reached With Family in Slaying”
    By LIZETTE ALVAREZPublished: April 5, 2013

    As is customary in such settlements, the association admitted no guilt in Mr. Martin’s death and all parties are bound to confidentiality. The Orlando Sentinel obtained the portion of the settlement that was made public Friday at the Seminole County courthouse.

    • ay2z says:

      O’Mara’s statement in the article, but NYTImes does not claim O’Mara’s role in the civil case, but obviously they quote him as some sort of authority in the matter. This part would not be covered by a confidentiality agreement, but who was talking to O’Mara about private negotiations anyway?

      The Martin family and the association tried to settle the lawsuit through mediation earlier in the year but talks fell apart after Mr. Martin’s parents rejected a $1 million offer, said Mark O’Mara, Mr. Zimmerman’s criminal lawyer.

      • Good point. MOM should not have known or publicized that information.

      • This comment by omar, about the 1st attempt at settlement is from a long time ago when the os/renee wrote about the The Parent’s rejecting the settlement way back in the day!

        i don’t see any NEW info from omar directly! it looks like they are still using that quote from the 1st article as if it’s new.

  38. amsterdam1234 says:

    I am confused. Very confused.
    Can anybody update me about the facts. A timeline maybe.

  39. Valerie says:

    I’m curious as to whether this type of civil lawsuit names the defendant, but as the articles said…he is not a party in the lawsuit. Does the mere naming of the defendant requiring the lawsuit require Fogen to have legal representation, and therefore Omara ,as Fogen’s attorney is kept abreast of the progress of the lawsuit…
    However,everyone knows Omara loves him a camera and a microphone, he inserted himself without explanation as to his role in the lawsuit and comes off as if he has some kind of inside information…and angered his base supporters.

    • No, since GZ was not a party to the lawsuit, he had no standing to be involved in it or to have his lawyer kept abreast of developments, much less any say in the settlement discussions.

      • ay2z says:

        If he has no standing, why is the confidential settlement agreement even entered as material the criminal trial, who entered it and is that an attempt to void the settlement by breach of confidentiality, should Judge Nelson require it be published?

      • kllypyn says:

        Mr Leatherman Could the Martins sue the CTH and other sites for their lies?

      • Mr Leatherman Could the Martins sue the CTH and other sites for their lies?

        I’d like to know as well. They’ve not only defamed Trayvon’s character but also Tracy & Sybrina. I read on a blog recently where Trayvon was accused of being a drug dealer. It’s just too much.

        • racerrodig says:

          Yep, Zidiots did accuse him of being a drug dealer. In one of the more recent interviews during a walk through, Taaffe said as much.

        • I don’t believe anyone can be held liable for what they say about a dead person.

          Tracy, Sybrina, Ben Crump and Natalie Jackson probably have valid causes of action against people who have defamed them, assuming they can identify who they are and prove that they suffered a financial loss caused by a particular defamatory statement uttered by a particular person.

          Such a person also would need to have sufficient financial assets with which to satisfy a judgment or it would not be worth the time, expense and effort to sue them.

          I suspect that they are ignoring the false and defamatory racist filth uttered by right wing wackos and repeated ad nauseum in the right wing echo chamber.

          There is a bigger fish to fry and his trial starts June 10th.

  40. ay2z says:

    I had no idea what was going on over at CTH and thought the posts you all were talking about yesterday, were in a comment section. Did a google search this morning and linked to yesterday’s ‘story’ by SD, and another google search link, to today’s article

    The first article suggests opinion about this or that but ‘fact’ about the O’Mara connection. Pushing ‘fact’ but no sources of that claimed ‘fact/.

    Today, they claim to have created a backstory that they suggest shows the brilliance of O’Mara’s involvment as advisor to HOA. From an ANONYMOUS email, contents of which make up the whole backstory.

    But, what the heck does Obama have to do with anything? Other than another fall guy to blame for the woes of Robert and sons?

    I haven’t read much of today’s article and don’t think I have the stomach to do that. (scanned over the rest, it’s sick in it’s attacks).

    I am curious about any comments O’Mara has made through legitimate media, not THC with it’s anonymous emailed articles.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      ay2z says

      I am curious about any comments O’Mara has made through legitimate media, not THC with it’s anonymous emailed articles.

      are you telling me that anonymous emails distributed on sketchy right wing web sites are not ‘fact’ in your book? 🙄

    • crazy1946 says:

      Hmmm, what an interesting combination of words, “legitimate media”! In todays society does such a thing exist?

      • ay2z says:

        yes, sadly, I should have put quotes around that term, thanks.

        When you have The Orlando Sentinel getting all of it’s information from O’Mara’s website for his client’s case and not independently from the clerk’s office (they seem to not link articles any longer for readers).

        The next case may have a ‘legal site’ run by a non-lawyer who has no problem doxing what is shared as coming out of the clerk’s office.

        Slippery slope.

      • ay2z says:

        (‘yes’ about the interesting combo of words)

      • Rachael says:

        Not only that, but when you see the disgustingly sick racist comments left at these “legitimate” media, it makes me wonder how they can consider themselves to be “legitimate” or how anyone else can either.

      • ay2z says:

        Rachel, those comments contain hate in the most disgusting language and directed towards individuals who did not ask to be killed, nor ask that they child and friend and brother be killed.

        I am shocked that these organizations allow these to be posted, and then allow them to remain.

        They have no responsibility and no ethics. This is not about freedom of speech, it’s about spewing hate and they condone it and by their lack of action, encourage personal hate attacks.

        This also allows the hate posters, to control the comments and participation.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Mebbe, in a twisted way, it’s better to let these folk out themselves in comments online . . .

      • Two sides to a story says:

        . . . get it in writing, so to speak!

  41. Trained Observer says:

    How would I feel, if I were Fogen?

    Shocked and betrayed, of course, but what with being a total weasel, I’d also be smirking and checking with Daddy and his pal Wolfie on how this might scuttle my June 10 date with destiny. You see, being dumber than a sack of doorknobs and all, I’m still hoping all this goes away and I can make a bloody fortune on a book or movie … or sumpem.

    This post is a jawdropper for those of us who steer clear of the CT, and depend on comments here for updates on comments there.

    The phrase “played any role in advising the HOA” seems broad enough to cover the waterfront … everything from the comparatively benign act of supplying a statement or other evidence about to become public on the case … to the most egregious equivalent of privately confiding GZ’s defense ain’t gonna fly.

    I’m no MOM fan, but on the latter it’s difficult for me to believe he’d do anything that stupid. Who’d put their entire career reputation on the line for one client up on M2, especially a lying stinker like Fogen?

    • itsallboutmeash says:

      “I’m no MOM fan, but on the latter it’s difficult for me to believe he’d do anything that stupid.”

      30 some days a passport of George’s sat on O’Mara’s desk that he swore to the court did not exist. He did not think he would be caught then.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Am not which passport was where … much less when. Fogen on a taped jailhouse call told the Missus to keep one (possibly hers) in a box, although it’s reasonable to believe they also were discussing his extra that they were keeping on the downlow. Was the passport submitted to the court (with the earlier expiration date) the one O’Mara had on his desk? This is like trying to follow a shell game.

      • @Trained Observer,

        on the jail house tapes it’s clear that shellie is telling gz about HIS passport, and he knows it. there’s no ambiguity in that conversation. and there’s no doubt omar lied about the passport in a pathetic cover up about having forgotten it in his briefcase… I’ve listened to that part a few times just to confirm for myself.

        i have the first 6 calls on my page if you wanna listen again. but note that shellie lets him know his passport is safe.

      • Tzar says:

        30 some days a passport of George’s sat on O’Mara’s desk that he swore to the court did not exist. He did not think he would be caught then.

        Let’s add to that
        OMara recently used recanted testimony to support a writ to the appellate court

      • Trained Observer says:

        Shannon , It’s been a while since I’ve listened. (Yes, I understood from way back when that the Fogens were blathering about both their passports, one being in a box. Where I get hazy is on what MOM said to Lester to smoothe over the duplicate passport issue. (Although they weren’t exactly duplicates, since Fogen opted to turn in the one with earlier expiration date, and sit on the one with the longer shelf life.) I never did understand Lester likening the two passports to losing a driver’s license, since a replacement DL is truly a dupe, not one that is good for a longer period.

        Where is your page, and thanks in advance.

    • ay2z says:

      TO, I am so glad to hear I’m not the only one.

      This post is a jawdropper for those of us who steer clear of the CT, and depend on comments here for updates on comments there.

      Someone has to keep an eye on what’s going on with O’Mara’s referenced as recommended source pages for information. Kudos to those for the stomach to read and share.

  42. itsallboutmeash says:

    Since George was not a homeowner he had no part in this lawsuit at all.

    Could this lawsuit settlement loosen up the tongues of the homeowner witnesses? If they don’t have to worry about being sued anymore might they come forward now?

    • It could, but they should have told the truth despite their financial interest in the outcome.

      They were being questioned about a murder!

      If they did not tell the truth, now is the time to do so.

  43. parrot says:

    That O’Mara advised the HOA is astonishing.

    As KS writes, here is one article that shows he did have what seems to be inside information:

    http://newsone.com/2359067/trayvon-martin-settlement/

    I remember that GZ told his father in a jailhouse call that he signed the contract with O’Mara without having read it.

    If the contract reveals the conflict, would GZ have waived his right to a conflict-free lawyer upon signing it?

    Can this issue be brought up in appeal?

    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-07-17/news/os-george-zimmerman-jail-phone-calls-2-20120717_1_trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-shellie-zimmerman

  44. crazy1946 says:

    Professor, I know this post is not directly on topic, however it is a point that does not seem to have been considered in the past, as far as my feeble old brain cells can recall. This whole case, in the eyes of the racist population, in this country is not about Fogen (what true racist could ever support this man who is not in their eyes a pure and white member of society), they really don’t care one little iota about him! This case is an attack on their rights as racist members of society to be in control of this nation! The folks over at the CTH who support Fogen, simply do not want this case to come to trial, and if Fogen were wise, he would forgot about protection from the NBPP and worry instead for his safety from the folks that support him at places like the CTH. If this case goes to trial, it will endanger their very way of life, and (in their eyes) destroy the very fabric of racism in this nation! The right to kill or injure the minorities in this nation with little to fear from the legal community is at stake for these people. I would not be surprised to see one of them take physical actions to prevent Fogen going to trial. What most people do not consider is that Fogen is not the only defendant in this case, a very large segment of society is on trial as well…

  45. Two reasons I think O’mara was involved in the lawsuit.

    Crump gave him a copy.

    He refused to confirm or deny to Stutzman that the amount was blacked out on his copy.

    • ay2z says:

      Wouldn’t that violate any confidentiality agreement between the parties if O’Mara were not involved in the negotiations?

      • itsallboutmeash says:

        It would not if in the agreement it said O’Mara was to be given a copy of it. Then you have to ask why that sensitive info would be given to him.

      • Seems to me that confidentiality would be violated, if MOM were involved in settlement discussions.

        He would be advising the HOA what to do based on information that only he knew by virtue of his representation of the defendant.

        If he did that, he may have saved the HOA millions of dollars by advising them to settle before all the awful facts come out at trial.

    • I can see Ben Crump providing him with a courtesy copy of the lawsuit and the order dismissing it, since MOM represents GZ and GZ is tangentially affected by the settlement even though the court will not permit prosecution or defense to mention the lawsuit during the trial.

      Don’t know why he would neither confirm nor deny the settlement amount. If he was not involved, he would not know the amount.

  46. Judy75201 says:

    The only news report I was ever able to find that claimed that O’Mara was involved in the settlement was this link which I posted previously. However, that part has now been removed (and I am quickly learning that screen caps are imperative and I won’t make that mistake again):

    http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2013/4/5/trayvon_martin_s_par.html

    Has anyone else been able to find a reputable news source that makes the claim that O’Mara was a player in the settlement? Thx.

    • Can you walk me through how to get a screen cap? Amazing the stuff that disappears (I have been looking at a different, unrelated matter). When you get a moment, can you answer, if you don’t mind?

      Also: So far, I cannot find a news source that confirms O’Mara advised, reviewed, gave the ‘nod’ or anything else, so I am waiting before concluding anything further.

    • Yup, I just learned and am now getting screen caps as well.

      And no, no news source yet. Crickets. So, makes me wonder if the whole thing was made up.

      • Lynn says:

        Is this the reference? Or are we looking for the interview?

        During an interview in February, Zimmerman’s attorney, Mark O’Mara, said Trayvon’s parents had tried to settle through mediation and the association or its insurer had offered $1 million, but Trayvon’s parents had rejected that amount.

        O’Mara said the two parties then renewed talks and agreed to settle several months ago.

        http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-trayvon-martin-settlement-20130405,0,6893976.story

        • Xena says:

          @Lynn. I’ve searched for the actual interview and have not been able to find it — think it never happened. Could there have been a press conference or interview of O’Mara back in Feb. of this year where he said that and it wasn’t reported? I doubt it.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Xena –

            What if we’ve all be conned? (Unitron will have a field day.)

            Let’s see what daylight will bring …

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “What if we’ve all be conned?”

            Forgive my ignorance, but conned in what way?

            unitron

          • PiranhaMom says:

            Uni,

            The lights are turned out, as in ConEdison.

            Or George”s Mim.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @ Uni —

            re: “Captain Renault phoned in from Casablanca to say that he was “shocked, shocked I tell you” that anyone discussing this case would do such a thing.”

            And this could lead to a beautiful friendship …

            (PS: Wrote “Mim.” Meant “Mum.”)

          • Xena says:

            @PiranhaMom

            Let’s see what daylight will bring …

            I’ve listened to every taped interview of O’Mara from February of this year. I’ve used advanced search engine formulas and gone through pages of returns. As far as I’m concerned, the treeslum took something reported without any support, embellished it, add theories to it, then found fault based on their theory being truth, and did so without first waiting on daylight.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “… took something reported without any support, embellished it, add theories to it, then found fault based on their theory being truth…”

            Captain Renault phoned in from Casablanca to say that he was “shocked, shocked I tell you” that anyone discussing this case would do such a thing.

            unitron

        • Not sure. The odd thing is, how would he know these things and why would he tell the OS? From the looks of his statement, at the very least he had information about the suit’s progression. But, why would he be involved and have information at all?

          • Xena says:

            From the article:

            During an interview in February, Zimmerman’s attorney, Mark O’Mara, said Trayvon’s parents had tried to settle through mediation and the association or its insurer had offered $1 million, but Trayvon’s parents had rejected that amount.

            O’Mara said the two parties then renewed talks and agreed to settle several months ago.

            I have been unable to find that interview. Had O’Mara said that in February, it would have been headline news for the OS.

          • If there are no original sources for these stories why are they being reported? Not snark- serious question.

      • Malisha says:

        Perhaps “shocked” because he left his cell phone in the wrong pocket. ?? Or perhaps he forgot he had it with him?

        • LOL that’s right. He totally ‘forgot’ that he even had a hollow-point-loaded, holstered, KelTec 9 on him. Easy to ‘forget’ all about that right? So, he forgot the street names, had to earthly idea where he was, forgot that he was carrying a loaded handgun, and yet he is the go-to for neighborhood safety? What am I missing here?

  47. Cercando Luce says:

    O’Mara would have to be very, very stupid to make any representation at all regarding the defendant to the HOA. Does he dislike being a lawyer? Or has he won a big lottery and won’t ever work again? Or is he so enamored of making public statements that he couldn’t help himself?

    I am going to assume the Treehouse to be chumming the waters to create a false feeding frenzy. Also, I don’t see Mssrs. Crump and Blackwell being party to O’Mara’s conflict of interest as opposing counsel. They would have pointed it out. Or does this have something to do with registering the settlement with the court?

    • Xena says:

      @Cercando

      O’Mara would have to be very, very stupid to make any representation at all regarding the defendant to the HOA.

      How stupid is O’Mara? He’s so stupid that he went before the Appellate Court arguing for recusal of Judge Lester on the basis that Judge Lester’s prejudicial statements reflect that he would not fairly preside over the immunity hearing for the defendant.

      Now O’Mara says there won’t be an immunity hearing.

      • bettykath says:

        iirc, MOM won that one.

      • Jun says:

        It was a stupid decision based on a weak case considering Lester but all roads lead to Rome

        Why would someone recuse a judge who is consistently known as the fairest and most liked judge in that county for Nelson, who is known as the firecracker?

        Either way, since Omara has her, he got to learn to adapt

        Lester will put up with nonsense and long windedness

        Nelson is what I would call a New York Minute judge

        To be good with Nelson, be prompt and concise with everything you do because she is fast and crafty and does not stand for wasting time

        It seems to be something that Omara and West do not understand

        STill, hilarious to me, because, the recusal of the Lester led to Nelson and it has been hilarious to watch the Fogen Gang act ineptly and stutter and no suave or swagger or charisma to deliberate their points nor are they articulate during hearings

        But cant say they were not warned by the other lawyers who have worked there LOL

        The devil you know is better than the devil you dont know

        • Xena says:

          @Jun

          STill, hilarious to me, because, the recusal of the Lester led to Nelson and it has been hilarious to watch the Fogen Gang act ineptly and stutter and no suave or swagger or charisma to deliberate their points nor are they articulate during hearings

          Indeed. Whether not prepared to argue their motions, or simply not prepared to have their motions denied, O’Mara and West have both behaved like spoiled brats before Judge Nelson.

  48. Back on topic, if this is true that O’Mara did this, what was he thinking? I keep waiting to hear that TCTH was simply mistaken about O’Mara’s involvement. It seems utterly crazy.

    • Rachael says:

      That’s why I’m kind of surprised Jr. has been so quiet. I would think one way or another he’d be chirping or tweeting about it – but I just got up. Maybe something happened overnight that I don’t know about. But he’s been awfully quiet.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Yes. Game up?

      • abbyj says:

        Rachel, Junior has laid low since he was on Piers Morgan to answer for his racist tweets. Remember how he had attempted to tie together Trayvon Martin with the black 14 year-old kid who allegedly shot a baby?

        Jr. couldn’t answer Morgan’s questions in any rational manner. His only argument was founded on the representations of both black males in their “social media,” and then Jr. blamed it all on the “liberal media.” He made no sense. IMO, he looked like a racist fool, only inflaming the racial undercurrents of the case.

        I believe MO’M issued a repudiation of Jr. during the show itself, and Morgan read that on air. Since then, Jr. has kept a very low profile. He has been awfully quiet. He must’ve had the riot act read to him.

        • racerrodig says:

          “He must’ve had the riot act read to him.”

          We can only hope, but he can’t unring the bell on his racist rants at this point.

    • Oh cool! I just got screen grab to work! Thanks guys.

  49. OT:

    Here’s the kind of effing BS I was talking about on another thread, as far as what the scumbags do, non-stop. It’s called STALKING:

    Suspicious activity in your account
    We detected activity on your Google Account from a location you don’t usually sign in from. Review the information below and tell us whether you recognize this activity. Learn more
    Event Description
    Details
    Time
    Browser sign-in attempt
    Prevented
    Japan
    e-mobile.ne.jp, IP Address: 49.252.232.101
    Apr 7, 2013
    12:17:33 AM
    Browser sign-in attempt
    Prevented
    Japan
    eonet.ne.jp, IP Address: 121.87.216.18
    Apr 7, 2013
    1:47:50 AM

    • wow! that’s freaky and disturbing!
      i don’t know how you can prevent it. i just watched a show where a it techy guy was cyber hacked to get cc info and open another cc.

      he actually said there wasn’t anything much he could do about it until it happened!! and he worked for a major tech company as security expert!!!!

      he did say that in most cases it’s the password guessing that gets hackers in. and you can do better by making your password as complicated as possible, and changing it often, but even then there’s software out there that some high-end hackers use to find out your password.

      i’m sorry about what’s been happening to your guys, i wish i could smash the fingers of everyone who did it to you!
      but you are brave and stand up for yourselves and that’s why you’re such a threat to these haters!
      but keep your guard up for your personal safety cas that’s what i worry about with these hate groups!! they really have you on their shit list!! i mean you are on the same list as BDLR, Corey and DD and rev AL! it’s very scary to see this!

      stay safe and keep your eyes open!

      • fauxmccoy says:

        @shannon
        @crane

        i am in the process right now of writing an article for the professor on how we can all improve the security of our online presence in the face of known compromises to people who post here.

        my husband is a well paid as well as regarded IT security geek and as a former tech writer, i spent much of yesterday ‘interviewing’ him. i expect that i will have the article to fred on monday and that the suggestions we’ll be making will improve everyone’s security if they were to follow them. it felt kind of silly to interview the hubster, but i wrote software documentation for several years during the glory days of the hi-tech world when good documentation was the norm.

        i look forward to being able to present my findings and suggestions because it is clear that we have a bit of a problem on our hands here.

        • sounds like fun, writing software docs!LOLOLOLO poor thang!! my second major was programing and i became stuck in a catatonic state 3 and half hours, 2x a week for over 3 months. this cause great brain damage that I’ve never recovered!

          • fauxmccoy says:

            shannon – kind of how i got started. i started college as a math/computer science major in ’82. ran away, pulling my hair out after 2 years and moved to san francisco. what i did find though was a strong skill in being able to interview geeks and reinterpret their words for the lay user. although it may sound on the dull side, it was lucrative work for a 20 year old and i’m grateful for it. it also put me in a good position in the mid 80s in san francisco to be on the cutting edge of the hi-tech world – i had amazing systems at my fingertips and learning them has served me well and i have maintained my interest ever since.

          • yeah tech was our big boom! the friend who helped me build my first computer was also who encouraged me to go to college by convincing me I was smart enough. it was my passion at the time.
            I started with multimedia until I realized just how terribly inartistic I was, so i changed to programming.
            but that networking class that first summer was unbearable for me. and I never did graduate.
            I just bounced around those years trying to figure out what I was into… it turned out that I enjoyed western civ and sociology more than i’d ever imagine, although I did love math too..

            ahhhh, san fran 😆 must have been heaven!!! in the late 90s I went to munich/frankfrurt/berlin for the summers and worked in interior design.
            but I need to learn CAD now, at least the basics, so I can actually make some real cheddar!! lol any tips about CAD? i’m afraid it’ll be too techie for me…

          • fauxmccoy says:

            shannon — sounds like all good experience. i did return to college when i was 30. majored in anthropology with minors in spanish and california studies. had planned to go to law school after that, but got way laid with a bout of cancer, a handsome young man and the babies that followed. i have no regrets. no advice on the CAD thing, it’s what my bro does. i am now just an advanced tech user and early adopter. my background helps, as does the much younger IT geek i married.

          • “handsome young man and the babies that followed”

            nice 🙂

            ” much younger IT geek i married”

            even nicer!! LOL
            I think I like younger men too! lol I can’t decide!

        • cielo62 says:

          Faux McCoy- thank you! Looking forward to reading it.

          Sent from my iPod

      • Thanks and yeah. It’s bullshit. Happened to my Twitter account too. I think everyone should best keep eyes open.

      • @fauxmccoy

        I’m looking forward to your article as well. We’re blessed to have you share it with us.

    • abbyj says:

      Crane-Station, Disturbing to hear that someone’s making such an effort to compromise your account. There are services, as you probably know, who can identify the person by using the IP. I don’t know if you’ve considered that, or just reporting it as cyberstalking. Sorry to hear about this.

    • gbrbsb says:

      At least they were stopped. My yahoo account was broken into twice recently from two different IP addresses in the Philippines and they are now sending emails in my name to everyone in my contacts with a link to different products. I am not sure what, other than changing the password, one can do. I was going to look online this weekend to see if there is any advice.

      • Wow, that happened to a friend of ours a couple of years ago. Because we were in her contact list, we got an email from her, only it was fake. In the email, ‘she’ claimed she was stranded in an airport or in a town somewhere and needed money. The fake email was sent to all of her contacts.

        • Xena says:

          @Crane-Station. I received an email like that from a friend — except it wasn’t my friend. He resides in Canada and said in the email that he was in England and was robbed. He needed to pay his hotel bill and money for a cab to the airport.

          Silly me — I emailed him back and asked for the name of the hotel, figuring I would conduct transactions directly with them. So when he replied without answering my question and said to send money via Western Union, I picked up the phone and called my FBI friend. He told me it was a scam. Often when people use public computers and check their email, they don’t close the browser.

          Even Jodie Arias testified how she was able to go into an ex-boyfriend’s email account by using the back arrow on the browser.

          • Very similar scenario. Stuck in an airport in Scotland or some such. Very strange. We ended up contacting our friend directly, and that cleared it up. I felt sorry for her though, because the fake ‘SOS’ letter soliciting money went out to her entire contact list.

          • Xena says:

            @Crane-Station. It took sbcglobal two months to stop someone from sending emails using my email address. They were not people in my address book because I never used sbcglobal online but through Outlook Express. So a bunch of strangers received email from my email address. 🙂

          • PiranhaMom says:

            I get those “I’ve been attacked in (name overseas city) and have no passport or money” e-mails all the time. Before computers, people got phone calls.

            I delete everything from an addressee I don’t know personally. Never open them.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            That is exactly why many small internet cafes that were springing up, stopped and went out of business. All they had to do was go behind their customers and clear the history and close the programs they’d used. Good thing I’m honest but, when I went to a few of these internet cafes, I could open the history and see what other people before me had done, the sites they had browsed, and a few even had failed to log out of their own bank sites, meaning that if I chose I could transfer funds out. Instead I just clicked the sign out button for them. But geeze eh? Today, banker/financial sites are a bit smarter, if there’s no activity for a few minutes you have to log back in.

            But I’m sure that people believed that internet cafes were the source of their problems and stopped using them in rural areas where they were beginning to spring up like mushrooms after a spring rain. Too bad because I liked using their printers instead of maintaining my own.
            If you don’t print a lot, you lose more ink cartridges from dried ink. oh well.

      • that same thing happen to me too. i dont know how or who or where from but that is what happen to me and i had to change my password on my yahoo account to stop it. i kept getting reply emails from family members and friends to things i had not any knowledge of. was kinda crazy for a bit until my daughter figured it out and had me to change my password.

  50. KA says:

    I agree. I saw a few articles on this that had quotes from MOM about the settlement and the case in which seemed to give the impression to me that he knew the “inside scoop”. I do not even know why he would offer comment on the settlement at all. It would seem a nest of bees that anyone sane [who was a party to this case] would avoid.

    • Rachael says:

      Yeah, but you know how he likes to insert himself into everything. There is a whole lot he should have and still should avoid, but that doesn’t stop him.

    • Tzar says:

      I do not even know why he would offer comment on the settlement at all.

      “By way of example: Defense Counsel not only himself courts anything resembling a microphone or camera…”
      -Bernie De La Rionda (Supreme Wig Snatcher)

  51. Malisha says:

    Why would anybody believe ANYTHING Sundance Cracker said? If he’s not delusional he’s a liar and really, it doesn’t matter how much each or to what degree or what the ingredient mix is. Slap together turn over bake it’s nuts.

    • truthseeker66 says:

      Agree!!!!! The HOA has their own attorney.

    • kllypyn says:

      We already know he’s a liar. All he has done was post lies about the martins and post then as fact including things that only trayvon’s family would know. like whether trayvon missed 53 days of school or not which is irrelevant and false. whether sybrina raised trayvon or not which is irrelevant and false.whetehr tracy owed back child support which is false that would have one of the things leaked. whether trayvon was in a gang or was a drug dealer or not also false. talking about smoking weed with your buddies doesn’t make you a dealer.if that’s his way to justify trayvon’s murder then we better go kill 70 -80 percent of the teenagers in this country. trayvon never hit a bus driver a question that supposedly was posted on hit twitter or face book page i don’t remember which. by his cousin which was posted the day of trayvon’s wake which make it suspect. the driver in question would have forward by now and also not relevant. they eventually some he might hjave hit a bud driver but he could have.because come kid somewhere did hit a bus driver. whether trayvon tried lean or not is irrelevant. lean by the way is made from sprite and cough syrup it has the same effect as drinking beer,not watermelon drink and skittles. There are murdered gang members who have robbed and killed people and have long histories of violence who aren’t vilified the way trayvon has been. There are child killers who haven’t been vilified the way trayvon has been. There are child molesters who haven’t been vilified the way trayvon has been . there are rapists and mass killers who haven’t been vilified the way trayvon has been. We know his face book and twitter accounts had been hack by a hate group. because they said trayvon had a pitifully simple password. even his email account had been hacked. All they found was emails about college and the s.a.t’s.he had began researching college. if they had found any emails they could have used against him they would have. thug generally don’t make plans for college. they expect to be dead or in jail. according to his friends a year before he was killed Trayvon began making plans for college. He even visited his brother’s college just a few months before he was killed. He had plans for the future. Now he has no future. Trayvon never harmed anyone.

      • kllypyn says:

        We already know he’s a liar. All he has done was post lies about the martins and post then as fact including things that only Trayvon’s family would know. like whether Trayvon missed 53 days of school or not which is irrelevant and false.In most states if your kid misses more than 20 days of school he or she is labeled a truant and the parents are taken to court.. whether Sybrina raised Trayvon or not which is irrelevant and false.whether Tracy owed back child support which is false that would have one of the things leaked. whether trayvon was in a gang or was a drug dealer or not also false. talking about smoking weed with your buddies doesn’t make you a dealer.if that’s his way to justify Trayvon’s murder then we better go kill 70 -80 percent of the teenagers in this country. trayvon never hit a bus driver a question that supposedly was posted on his twitter or face book page i don’t remember which. by his cousin which was posted the day of trayvon’s wake which makes it suspect. the driver in question would have come forward by now and also not relevant. they eventually said he might not have hit a bus driver but he could have.because come kid somewhere did hit a bus driver. Whether trayvon tried lean or not is irrelevant. lean by the way is made from sprite and cough syrup it has the same effect as drinking beer,not watermelon drink and skittles. There are murdered gang members who have robbed and killed people and have long histories of violence who aren’t vilified the way trayvon has been. There are child killers who haven’t been vilified the way trayvon has been. There are child molesters who haven’t been vilified the way Trayvon has been . There are rapists and mass killers who haven’t been vilified the way trayvon has been. We know his face book and twitter accounts had been hacked by a hate group. because they said trayvon had a pitifully simple password. Even his email account had been hacked THAT’S WHY TRACY AND SYBRINA HAD HIS FACE BOOK AND TWITTER PAGES DELETED. All they found was emails about college and the s.a.t’s.he had began researching college. If they had found any emails they could have used against him they would have. Thugs generally don’t make plans for college. they expect to be dead or in jail. according to his friends a year before he was killed Trayvon began making plans for college. He even visited his brother’s college just a few months before he was killed. He had plans for the future. Now he has no future. Trayvon never harmed anyone.

      • kllypyn says:

        I posted twice because the first posting had a lot of typos.

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @kllypyn,

          Typos or not, Kelly, we love your passion.

          You are fiercely incandescent in your defense of our beloved Trayvon, and in pursuit of justice for his needless, tragic murder.

          We have all lost a part of the future that Trayvon could have brought to his community, his country and the world’s future. We feel that loss keenly, and you express our feelings with such fervor!

          We thank you, Kelly for this.

      • lurker says:

        Any black male in any urban district in this country who took a swing at, let alone hit, a bus driver would have been expelled and had very little opportunity for defense.

    • gbrbsb says:

      Sounds the sensible thing to do to me!

  52. There is a possibility that this story is false and was planted to get O’Mara forcibly removed from the case.

    • crazy1946 says:

      Professor, I’m wondering if it is an attempt to remove MOM from the case or an effort to remove Judge Nelson from the case? When I read this yesterday, there seemed to be more bias toward the claim that Judge Nelson had overseen several civil actions in regards to the actions of Fogen and would be prone to carry her opinions about the civil cases over into the criminal case!

      • I do not see how this would affect Judge Nelson adversely because most courts try to assign all related cases to the judge that already has a case. This promotes consistency, conserves judicial resources and discourages forum shopping.

      • Malisha says:

        Since there was a settlement and no trial in the civil action against the HOA, I can’t imagine what basis there would be for an attack on Judge Nelson.

    • IIRC, Sundance Cracker published and later removed an open letter from his site approximately one month ago seeking to have Don West replace Mark O’Mara.

      I do not believe he is happy with the decision to waive the immunity hearing.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        i find it hard to believe that mr cracker at the nuthouse is sane.

      • Rachael says:

        Can there be an legal repercussions to someone making stuff up on their site? I mean public figures so no, but “tampering” with a murder case?

      • Malisha says:

        If Sundance is the source of information about O’Mara, it is not to be believed.

      • Xena says:

        Last night, I read the article on the treeslum and there are things said about the case filed by Traveler’s in federal court that are untrue. Hopefully today will present time for me to put something on my blog with the case documents to help clear up misunderstandings and misrepresentations.

      • Well, that would be interesting, Xena. To be honest, I had not really followed the civil case(s) because I did not think anything would happen until after the criminal case was resolved. Truly a situation where more will,be revealed.

      • Malisha says:

        Now I have to defend O’Mara. What COULD he have done at an immunity hearing? It would have been a blood bath!

        I think Nelson let him be graceful about not having an immunity hearing. She just slipped in, “will you need those two weeks?”

        uh…no…

    • Two sides to a story says:

      That would pretty much be in line with a lot of the manipulative and toxic nonsense that oozes from the Tree Stump.

      • kllypyn says:

        The sad thing is people are either stupid or hateful enough to buy their crap,maybe both.they get really pissed off when you call them out on their lies. One guy even threatened me and when i told him i told my relatives if end up dead or injured in some strange way he did it. he harried to bacj=]k off and say he wasa just trying to scare me. He probably wasn’t using his real name anyway.

    • racerrodig says:

      I’d bet on that as being the case. I can’t see any connection O’ Mara could have and for that matter being privy to any information in a civil case that his client was not a defendant to. Fogen may have his name mentioned as the tool used in this wrongful death but no more important than the gun itself.

      Sundance just makes shit up as he goes along. I doubt he even knows what ramifications his comment has to be honest.

      • Trained Observer says:

        As for making up a load of crap as things go along, are we absolutely sure Fogen and Sundance weren’t separated at birth?

        • racerrodig says:

          “…are we absolutely sure Fogen and Sundance weren’t separated at birth?”

          Anything is possible with this gang.

    • Rachael says:

      @ Professor: “There is a possibility that this story is false and was planted to get O’Mara forcibly removed from the case.”

      Are you saying SD made up the story to get O’Mara forcibly removed from the case or O’Mara himself somehow got a story out so he could be removed from the case.

      I know SD would like nothing more than to have him off, but it wouldn’t really surprise me if O’Mara wanted off too – but I don’t know that he’d do it this way.

      I haven’t read all the postings, just got up here on the west coast, no coffee yet, don’t even have my glasses on (that’s right folks, my face is naked) so I’m a bit fuzzy this morning.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      Planted by whom? SD?

      • Presumably to get rid of MOM and replace him with Don West, which SDC already attempted to do about a month ago.

      • racerrodig says:

        Notice Sundance starts with “,,,just got off the phone….” intimating he has some big time insider……Right,

        His Palm Reader just call, maybe that Tarot Card girl ?? He gets caught uop in lies as often as Fogen so to believe anything he says takes a real stretch.

      • Rachael says:

        But is a volunteer NW considered and employee?

      • Rachael says:

        Does that fall under freedom of speech or does that fall under tampering somehow?

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        This is ridiculous. It doesn’t matter whether it is true or not, the fact that O’Mara had himself tied to outside parties like cth in such a way that they can claim some legitimacy, makes a mockery of the legal process.

      • Malisha says:

        One doesn’t have to be an employee of the HOA to implicate the HOA for negligence while doing something tortious. Let’s say the HOA sent out a newsletter raving about a wonderful new doctor who was having free clinic hours in the neighborhood, gave his address, and said that he had cured several cases of cancer. Then some gullible person visiting a resident goes to the doctor who advises him to stop taking his chemo and his treatments, and rub himself down with palm oil and run a mile in the dark instead. He does that for six weeks and dies. Wrongful death points out that the guy advertised in the HOA newsletter had no medical degree and was a well-known fraud. Are they liable? I think they will settle!

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @ Malisha

          “Wrongful death points out that the guy advertised in the HOA newsletter had no medical degree and was a well-known fraud. Are they liable? I think they will settle!”

          Wonderful summary, Malisha.
          First thing they will do is call their insurance company.

    • CherokeeNative says:

      Good morning Professor. I was looking at O’Mara’s involvement, if true, in a different way. I know you know this stuff – but I am framing it towards the readers here. I’d appreciate your thoughts if I am looking at this from the wrong perspective. 🙂

      If you look at the wrongful death claims of the Martins as a claim against a corporation for the criminal/wrongful acts of one of its employees, there may be another reason O’Mara was involved. Often times, when a corporation is sued for the bad conduct of an employee by an outside third party (the Martins), the corporation will offer to indemnify the employee if it believes the employee was without fault by offering to provide a legal representation to the employee in connection with the wrongful death claims. Or the accused employee will make a demand for indemnification and legal representation afforded by the corporation. In order to avoid a conflict of interest between the corporation and the employee, the employee is usually provided with separate legal counsel than that which is representing the corporation. That conflict can be waived if the employee AND the corporation sign waivers acknowledging that there is a conflict in using the same attorney to represent them both; and acknowledging that should a legal issue between the employee and the corporation arise, they understand that the attorney would have to withdraw from representing the employee or corporation.

      In George’s case, it may be that O’Mara made a claim for indemnity to the HOA to provide a legal defense to George in any civil litigation that may arise out of his conduct on 2/26/13; or it may be that O’Mara gave notice to the HOA that he would be representing George in any civil litigation that may arise out of George’s conduct that night and demanding that the HOA provide payment to him for that representation, or it could be simply that O’Mara put the HOA on notice that George is an interested party with regard to any settlement negotiations to insure that there isn’t a settlement clause by the HOA acknowledging wrongful doing on the part of George.

      In any of these situations, O’Mara would be entitled to notice if the HOA was entering into a settlement with the Martins. It would be prudent of O’Mara to know the contents of any settlement agreement to insure that the HOA was not conceding that George acted criminally or wrongfully that night.

      I do agree that if O’Mara was in any way involved in the settlement negotiations renders his argument for Crump’s deposition that much more frivolous. I don’t see that this fact was included in Blackwell’s original opposing papers, and that may be because a settlement was not confirmed and therefore O’Smeara’s involvement not yet confirmed – dunno – but this is obviously the reason for filing the settlement agreement in sealed form with the Court in the criminal action. Whether they will be able to use it as part of the record in their opposition to the Petition for Writ is questionnable since it was not in the record at the time the Court made its Order denying the Crump depositions. Then again, reviewing Courts will sometimes take into consideration matters occurring after the fact to bolster its ruling on the issue being reviewed. It’s a wait and see.

      Basically, O’Mara could have avoided this situation had he only found George another attorney outside of his firm to represent George in all civil litigation matters such as the Martins’ against the HOA. Once again, O’Mara & West have demonstrated that they are not qualified to handle prime time high profile criminal cases – even with 60 years of experience between them.

      • You make good points.

        I think the HOA and O’Mara have some serious splainin’ to do.

      • Mary Davis says:

        @ CherokeeNative. Thank’s for explanation. I think I understand now. This is turning out to be a regular side show. I will be so glad when the trial starts and GZ is convicted. May he never rest in peace for murdering Trayvon.

      • Rachael says:

        OOoos, my comment was supposed to go here. Is a volunteer NW person considered an “employee?”

        • fauxmccoy says:

          rachael asks

          OOoos, my comment was supposed to go here. Is a volunteer NW person considered an “employee?”

          in a way, yes. his efforts, although voluntary and without compensation, were sanctioned and endorsed by the HOA as evidenced by their meeting minutes, newsletters, etc.

          when i was general manager of a natural foods co-op we accommodated a ‘volunteer worker program’ in which members who put in voluntary work received greater discounts on their purchases. my job was to ensure that these volunteers had same access to insurance programs (workers comp etc.) while they were performing work for the store. had they been injured while volunteering, our regular liability insurance would not have been the appropriate program to cover them. this was a relatively simple matter to administrate through various riders/clauses on insurance documents.

          on the other hand, i kind of knew what i was doing in this regard and had good legal advice. i doubt that the persons in the HOA who were responsible for maintaining such programs were as prepared.

      • crazy1946 says:

        Hmmm, loser for client, chance of being paid zilch, push on HOA to allow him to represent Fogen’s interests in civil suit, push for quick settlement, receive money from insurance company for his part in civil case, good payday for MOM, all the while crying that he was doing all this work for free! What’s the chance that this is what happened?

        • racerrodig says:

          There’s a better chance I can walk onto an NFL team, say the 49ers and make the final cut at age 57…….

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @Cherokee –
        @Professor Fred –
        @Mary –
        @Rachel –
        @gbrbsb –

        Zimmerman was not an employee and not a member of the HOA, and could not legally be a member of the HOwnersA, because he owned nothing.

        So far we have not seen that he got any “consideration” (such as a discount) for serving as the self-promoted NW. (He already discounted his rent 100% by not paying.) Ego-boosting doesn’t count in the courts of law.

        Imagine how bummed his landlord will feel if he has to pay an assessment as part of the settlement, in addition to being stiffed by this renter!

        The HOA was already crying the poormouth over improvements to the property requested by members (as I recall in their newsletter, relating to roads/traffic).

        Wait until Zimmerman and O’Mara/West sue the HOA, the management company and landscape contractor for the scratches to his noggin from the sprinkler head … mmm, mmm!

        As I see it, the HOA approved, encouraged and validated GZ as the freebie NW, DESPITE complaints of his pistol-packin’ forays that menaced residents – often selectively, as we have seen, dependent on race and color. The HOA did not, in any way known at this time, ever warn, censure or move to remove Zimmerman from that position.

        In addition, at least one HOA Board Member (Jenna), through her fiancé (Jeremy) knew that Zimmerman had his SCREAMING VICTIM under his control and at such grave risk that she called 911.

        As a Board Member she had to know of residents’ complaints about Zimmerman packing heat and harassing residents. (And if not, why not?)

        She should have been out there screaming at George herself, to knock it off – but she ran upstairs to protect herself from the fatal gunfire SHE HAD TO KNOW that Zimmerman was capable of, that she anticipated … and that did happen.

        Let me describe a similar responsibility an HOA could have: supposing my HOA has a petting zoo for the children, with goats and lambs, for example. And one of the residents, having to move, donates her rabbits, because the children will love them. For free. And we on the HOA Board vote to accept those rabbits. For free. Then, another resident has to move, and he wants to donate his pet python …

        What is my responsibility as a Board Member and what is the HOA’s liability if it accepts this offer?

      • Trained Observer says:

        Crazy, as outrageous — dare we say crazy? — as that scenario seems, it’s no more off kilter than anything else in this case.

        MOM seems desperate for a payday, somehow, some way.

        He should have stuck with DUIs and divorces among the better-heeled and stayed away from a not-a-pot-to-piss-in murdering heel like Fogen. That saga on how Fogen stiffed his lawyers in the overtime case should have told MOM all he needed to know.

      • KA says:

        I think there is a tie that that is similar to an employee as he was a recognized coordinator/worker of the NW program which seemed a recognized program of the HOA . I would imagine some kind of indemnity would come up in that situation.

      • LeaNder says:

        Convincing argument, CherokeeNative. Yes he somehow could have contacted HOA as counsel of Fogen regarding his interests in the lawsuit. Which means he may also have received information and thus could answer questions about matters. But in that scenario hardly anyone could have known he was involved and thus would have asked him questions about it.

        Thus I still wonder what brought up the subject in the interview Stutzman alludes to. Did he bring up matters himself?

        The only interview I can find in February, if I remember correctly, it was discussed here too was on the day of Trayvon’s dead was the one byPierce Morgan. But there the subject was clearly not addressed. i wish I had access to Lexis/Nexis to find out were he had interviews and where and in what context he talked about the family’s suit against HOA. Hmm, maybe in his post hearing comments to media, that should be easy to find.

      • Xena says:

        @Rachael

        OOoos, my comment was supposed to go here. Is a volunteer NW person considered an “employee?”

        The answer can be yes or no. Employment law can fall under federal jurisdiction, and the circuits are not on the same page. Courts use a general common law of agency doctrine that, in a case such as this, would consider the HOA’s right to control the manner and means by which the work is accomplished; the skill required, and the location of the work.

        Certain equipment or privileges to volunteers makes them employees under certain law. GZ apparently had access to the security cameras. He communicated with the management company about them. Would the HOA provide this privilege to all residents? Probably not.

        The thing with NW is that it comes with its own set of rules and policies. There were meetings and Dorvial went over the rules and policies. The HOA acknowledged GZ as THE person of responsibility for NW. The HOA gave GZ the means to operate NW.

        These would no doubt be issues for the court to determine, leading to briefs and arguments taking up the court’s time. The HOA would need a lawyer experienced in employment law.

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        “Basically, O’Mara could have avoided this situation had he only found George another attorney outside of his firm to represent George in all civil litigation matters such as the Martins’ against the HOA. ”

        If Zimmerman is neither plaintiff nor defendant in the Martins versus HOA suit, why would either side’s lawyers so much as answer the phone if Zimmerman’s civil or criminal attorney called, much less let them inject themselves into the case?

        Zimmerman does have a civil attorney from outside of both O’Mara and West’s practices. He’s from Philadelphia and named Jim Beasley.

        unitron

        • racerrodig says:

          “Zimmerman does have a civil attorney from outside of both O’Mara and West’s practices. He’s from Philadelphia and named Jim Beasley.”

          And what’s his involvement ?? Oh yeah, the NBC lawsuit. Your pointless point ????? Don’t even bother,

      • bettykath says:

        unitron,

        “If Zimmerman is neither plaintiff nor defendant in the Martins versus HOA suit, why would either side’s lawyers so much as answer the phone if Zimmerman’s civil or criminal attorney called, much less let them inject themselves into the case?”

        My question as well. I believe Trayvon’s parents are interested in at least 2 lawsuits, the one they just settled against HOA and another against their son’s killer. Since the killer was not a member of HOA, he was not sued…. yet. Therefore, his attorney would not be party to the mediation.

      • gbrbsb says:

        @PiranhaMom

        Great explanation as per usual, but did I ever say anything about GZ being an employee of the HOA? You have me confused!

    • gbrbsb says:

      Professor I too read the letter so your memory is good, but from before and certainly after the letter there have been ever more unhappy bunnies at the CTH, DWM, and other related sites to the Z team in respect of the way MOM is managing the case.

      In respect of a comment you make above about the date of the settlement, I am not confirming whether correct or not, I am myself gob-smacked with all of this, but at TL they are saying the settlement was finalised around two months ago but Crump only just now filed it with the criminal case… why’s and wherefore’s… tu mismo!

  53. crazy1946 says:

    This would go a long way toward explaining why MOM has been waging such a large defense of Fogen in the Media market, but at the same time done very little to prepare for a trial in the actual legal venue! It would appear (if this story is true) that MOM is very aware of the guilt of his client and knows that there is really no realistic defense for his clients actions! This could really be a good point for Fogen, because if his attorney is removed from the case, it will give him more time out of his future home, and allow him to remain sort of free for a longer period…

  54. fauxmccoy says:

    that was certainly curious information. there was also a quote of o’mara in the new york times regarding the settlement. i find it hard to believe that he would be advising the HOA, considering what a conflict of interest that would generate. i look forward to seeing information more reliable than the mr. cracker at the nuthouse.

    • @Fauxmccoy

      ———> mr. cracker at the nuthouse.

      Good one!

    • cielo62 says:

      >^..^< I don't think the HOA would need MOM to advise them. They could have:
      1. Read all of the available evidence and reached their own conclusion. OR
      2. Read everything HERE and share the professor's blog conclusion. Either way, MOM is superfluous.

    • Trained Observer says:

      The sentence dropped into the NYT story on where the OS obtained its info was curious.

      Reporters reporting on reporters and where they got what little they got … distracting from the fact that nobody seems to have obtained a copy of the settlement or gained access to the settlement number or other details.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        trained observer says

        Reporters reporting on reporters and where they got what little they got … distracting from the fact that nobody seems to have obtained a copy of the settlement or gained access to the settlement number or other details.

        yup – imagine my disappointment seeing the NYTimes using the OS as a source for anything 😦

      • Trained Observer says:

        Sad and sorry on many fronts, Faux. Traditionally, we’ve all come to expect more from the NYT. But apparently no more.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Cielo62, I agree and, in the days of outhouses the OS would have been very useful for the purpose of, well you get the picture. and if that’s not good enough, there is always the A’wipe Renee Stutzman. I would just love to see Lawrence O’Donnell tear into her again.

      • LeaNder says:

        I agree, absolutely no independent research by Alvarez simply copying and rephrasing Rene Stutzman.

        I consider this the most relevant part, her article in the OS:

        Crump provided a copy of the settlement to O’Mara’s office, that of Special Prosecutor Angela Corey and the judge Thursday, according to a cover page attached to the settlement that was placed in Zimmerman’s criminal-case file. It was not immediately clear whether in those versions the settlement amount was blacked out as well.

        Could the last passage refer to these entries:

        04/05/2013 LETT LETTER FROM THE CLERK’S OFFICE TO ATTORNEY BENJAMIN CRUMP REGARDING NOTICE OF
        04/05/2013 LETT CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
        04/04/2013 NOCI NOTICE OF CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION WITHIN COURT FILING

        with the clerk simply confirming the reception?

        Sounds like Crump responds to the writ of certiorari and the “opposing counsel” argument to me. Had O’Mara been the opposite counsel he would have had a copy of the settlement already.

      • Xena says:

        @Trained Observer. I’m coming here late today and was just reading comments from the top. I agree with your comment. Last night after reading that in February, O’Mara made a statement to a newspaper about Sybrina refusing a million dollar settlement last year and going into negotiations, I searched for that newspaper article. Nada. Nothing. Zilch. Can’t find it.

        Like most conspiracy theorists, Sundance apparently read that and added to it. If he cannot reference where O’Mara made that statement, I rank it as a conspiracy theory gone VERY wrong because it is defamatory towards O’Mara. It’s not that I like O’Mara, but right is right and wrong and wrong.

      • LeaNder says:

        xena, I guess if anyone of us had access to Lexis/Nexis, it should be easy to find out if O’Mara really said that in an interview in February and in what context.

        The problem I have with the Rene Stutzman scenario is feels really unlikely that he is asked about the suits of the parents in any interview. Then the question is what could bring it up.

        My fast impression is that almost everybody that picks up on the story is ultimately relying on the Orlando Sentinel article. The NYT author should have really easy Lexis/Nexis access and thus should be able to check the context. Did Stutzman interview O’Mara in February herself?

        I wish I had set a google alert for O’Mara with a special gmail account, if I had I had my own lexis/nexis database now. 😉

        Would she answer, if we asked her?

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @LeaNder

          1) Are you the original Leander who posts here regularly from Germany, with a very original avatar? Not the avatar we see on these posts today?

          2) re: “Did Stutzman interview O’Mara in February herself?

          “I wish I had set a google alert for O’Mara with a special gmail account, if I had I had my own lexis/nexis database now. 😉

          “Would she answer, if we asked her?”

          Last year I e-mailed her regarding the article she wrote about Trayvon living beyond being shot, quoting a single authority.

          She researched further, and responded quickly.

          So — ask her. It’s a valid question.

          Also, please send us the answer to my first question to you.

          Thank you

        • Xena says:

          @LeaNder

          xena, I guess if anyone of us had access to Lexis/Nexis, it should be easy to find out if O’Mara really said that in an interview in February and in what context.

          Lexis/Nexis provides court documents. It would not give us a newspaper article where O’Mara purportedly stated that Sybrina refused a settlement and went into negotiations.

      • LeaNder says:

        “Lexis/Nexis provides court documents.”

        Thanks Xena, it was my impression that lexis stands for court and legal issues and nexis for media. But I never looked into it admittedly. What would be the appropriate research tool for media only in the US?

        Piranha. my syntax changes with mood and attention. I am absolutely aware that I occasionally sound dyslexic at best or “dys-syntatic” at worst. There are days when my mind works in English and the appropriate term is automatically there, and there are times when I have to “translate” the German terms that come to mind first. Add to that changes in the writing process with often not carefully checking the result.

        For whatever reason, WordPress interfered with my avatar account. When I subscribed to it, it seems to have changed my name in my avatar.com account too, I wasn’t aware of that. Before that, whatever email I used I had connected with my avatar via gravatar.com it automatically added the avatar wherever I comment. Nice tool. But strictly it may have been my own inattention, I only visit gravatar.com to add a new email.

        One way or another I didn’t seem to be able to use my standard aka when signing up to WordPress. Seemed they allowed no capitals and leander is usually taken.

        But here it is again, for whatever reason or as the result of whatever type of fiddling it works again. Maybe it helped to ask WordPress to delete my account. No idea, what worked actually. I am logged in again via WordPress and I can use my standard aka. 😉

        • PiranhaMom says:

          Thanks, LeaNder – just VERY glad it is the real you. You are too important a contributor to these discussions to have your name and reputation hijacked.

          I understand having to shift between languages. I can never remember the word “rabbit” without having to go from conejo to lapin to rabbit – and English is my first language. Just a brain-twitch.

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