Why would an Afro-Peruvian defendant want an all white jury

Saturday, March 2, 2013

Good morning.

I write today to warn everyone regarding a probable defense effort during jury selection to exclude all potential jurors who are black, notwithstanding the recent defense claim that the defendant is Afro-Peruvian, whatever the hell that means.

The simple truth is that this defendant self-identified as white until after he killed Trayvon Martin. When he was accused of racially profiling Trayvon, he rather conveniently decided that calling himself White Hispanic and more recently Afro Peruvian would dispel any suspicions that the killing was racially motivated.

Instead, given the convenient timing of his declarations and his confusion of race with nationality unintentionally showcases his intellectual limitations and the desperate lengths to which he will go to deny that he is a racist.

He doth protest too much, methinks.

Therefore, do not be surprised if the defense attempts to use its peremptory challenges to exclude black jurors from the jury.

Recall, that unlike a challenge for cause, a lawyer does not have to explain the basis for a peremptory challenge. Recall too, that the SCOTUS prohibited the use of peremptory challenges by prosecutors to systematically exclude blacks from serving on juries with black defendants in Batson v. Kentucky, 476 U.S. 79 (1986), because such systematic exclusion violates a defendant’s Fourteenth Amendment right to Equal Protection of the laws. See also Miller-El v. Dretke, 545 U.S. 231 (2005).

We have an interesting wrinkle in this case because, if it happens, the defendant will be the party systematically excluding jurors because they are black or non-white, whereas, in Batson and Miller-El the prosecution systematically excluded blacks violating the defendant’s right to equal protection of the laws.

The issue the prosecution must be ready to argue and Judge Nelson must be ready to decide before jury selection is whether the Batson and Miller-El prohibition against the prosecution’s discriminatory use of peremptory challenges applies equally to a defendant.

I believe the answer is “yes,” because to rule otherwise would constitute official judicial approval of discrimination against black jurors in jury selection, so long as the defendant is doing the discriminating. I do not see that happening, if for no other reason than blacks have just as much right to serve on juries as whites.

Consider this language from Justice Blackmun’s majority opinion in JEB v. Alabama ex rel. TB, 511 U.S. 127, 128-129 (1994), in which the Court extended the Batson rule to gender.

In Batson v. Kentucky, 476 U. S. 79 (1986), this Court held that the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment governs the exercise of peremptory challenges by a prosecutor in a criminal trial. The Court explained that although a defendant has “no right to a `petit jury composed in whole or in part of persons of his own race,’ ” id. , at 85, quoting Strauder v. West Virginia, 100 U. S. 303, 305 (1880), the “defendant does have the right to be tried by a jury whose members are selected pursuant to nondiscriminatory criteria,” 476 U. S., at 85-86. Since Batson, we have reaffirmed repeatedly our commitment to jury selection procedures that are fair and nondiscriminatory. We have recognized that whether the trial is criminal or civil, potential jurors, as well as litigants, have an equal protection right to jury selection procedures that are free from state-sponsored group stereotypes rooted in, and reflective of, historical prejudice. See Powers v. Ohio, 499 U. S. 400 (1991); Edmonson v. Leesville Concrete Co., 500 U. S. 614 (1991); Georgia v. McCollum, 505 U. S. 42 (1992).

Although premised on equal protection principles that apply equally to gender discrimination, all our recent cases 129*129 defining the scope of Batson involved alleged racial discrimination in the exercise of peremptory challenges. Today we are faced with the question whether the Equal Protection Clause forbids intentional discrimination on the basis of gender, just as it prohibits discrimination on the basis of race. We hold that gender, like race, is an unconstitutional proxy for juror competence and impartiality.

(Emphasis added)

White defendants certainly do not have a right to an all white jury. As Justice Blackmun said, they have a right to a jury selected in a non-discriminatory manner.

Therefore, the selection process must be non-discriminatory and that must necessarily apply to all parties and to the Court.

A final thought to consider:

If the defendant is the race-blind Afro-Peruvian that he claims to be, then he ought to submit his case to an all black jury.

What do you think the odds are that he would agree?

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192 Responses to Why would an Afro-Peruvian defendant want an all white jury

  1. KittySP says:

    Professor, please explain what, if anything, in w8 medical records could be considered “discoverable, leading to relevant, admissible evidence that would aide the defense in preparing their sorry excuse of a case?!

    I pray Judge Nelson denies this motion same as request to depose Atty. Crump. This witness’ personal struggles following the death of Trayvon should have absolutely no bearing on the states case against him.

  2. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    Professor,
    I don’t know if you have read the Defenses latest motion, MOTION FOR SUBPOENA DUCES TECUMSEH FOR STATES WITNESS, CIVILIAN WITNESS 8 or not, so I’m providing a link because I want to know if they are supposed to give their “good cause” or if the Judge just takes their word on it. I don’t see the relevance and think its ridiculous to invade her rights just to see if she was at the Hospital on the same day as either Trayvon’s funeral or wake when they can just ask her in her depo. Clearly they don’t want the Judge to know the stupid reason, is that why they don’t list it? I mean witness 8 is not accusing Fogens of harming her, so how can it be relevant in this case?

    Is this going to be another motion denied?

    http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/0213/sdt_w8.pdf

  3. willisnewton says:

    I believe GZ will get a fair trial. What do others think? So far the judges have seemed good to me, and while I have not agreed with every decision I do think they have all been reasonable thus far.

    I think ON COURT the arguments on both sides have been aired well and with due deliberation and consideration the judge(s) have been fair to the defendant. The fact that he is currently out on bail says a lot to me, for were I the judge I would not have granted bail the second time. IMO he clearly worked to decieve the court about hidden money and a passport, more importanty. However the GPS device foiled his probable escape plans anyway and the fact that he WILL face justice satisfies my sense of right and wrong.

    Again, I ask others – given all we’ve seen thus far, do you believe this man WILL receive a fair trial or not?

    • Malisha says:

      Oh he’ll get a fair trial if he’s fool enough not to enter a plea.

      • willisnewton says:

        And while we are at it: has he been treated fairly by the courts thus far? Do you agree with the decisions made on all the various motions set before the judges?

        Let’s get those complaints and concerns out in the open – whatever happens in the MSM and on the Internet on blogs is neither here nor there unless and until it has a material effect on the decisions of judge and jury. Before we continue to speculate about the future what is the opinions of how it has all gone thus far?

        I’d be interested in hearing from any dissenters and those who feel they may hold a minority opinion here especially. Is this man getting a fair trial thus far? What decisions do you disagree with personally and why?

        • cielo62 says:

          Willie- we are not a jury. We don’t owe GZ a fair trial. Our responsibility is to fairly look at the available evidence, and brother, there’s plenty of that!

          Sent from my iPod

    • type1juve says:

      I think he will get a fair trial. I don’t agree with him getting bail the second time, but I’m not a judge either. Judge Nelson’s rulings have been fair and on point thus far. The one thing I do have an issue with is why no gag order has been issued thus far given the efforts of the defense to taint the jury pool.

    • PYorck says:

      Yes, I think he will. As much as they like to complain, so far he has been treated rather well.

  4. To paraphrase….

    “God I love the smell of fried fogen’s in the morning”

    Now back to our regularly scheduled coffee 🙂

  5. Dennis says:

    Unless the racist jurors hate black people more than any other race, I see no reason for them to acquit Zimmerman. He clearly looks Hispanic and I don’t think their racist friends would be too happy about them acquitting someone that is not Caucasian. The idiot racists can dance all they want to the death of Trayvon, but that does not change the fact that Zimmerman himself is also non-Caucasion (I am Caucasian and I consider the word minority offensive). If a racist hates anyone that isn’t their own color, I see no reason to acquit Zimmerman. Then again, racists have a delusional way of thinking so I would not be surprised if they did acquit him.

  6. The only thing BLACK about Zimmerman is his Heart!

  7. rayvenwolf says:

    Sparky’s best jury would have to be stacked with people who have no like for teens/young adults or heck children in general. Racial makeup aside one or more parents on the jury and his buns are gonna be burnt black.

    Some built in bias towards young black males might help, but frankly he’s better off with people who think anyone under the age of 21 is in fact the devil incarnate, despite having been that young once themselves.

    • Jun says:

      How would a racist jury work for him, since he’s now Afro Peruvian? LMAO

    • Rachael says:

      You have a point there. He does seem to be the kind who would yell at kids if they played outside making too much noise, stepped foot on his lawn and would take their ball if it went into his back yard – and he would still call the police on them.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Interesting. I hadn’t thought of that – yup, Fogen would probably end up as one of those sour old men.

      • Malisha says:

        A March 2012 interview with a youngster from RTL confirmed that in fact every time Fogen was out “on patrol” he harassed youngsters. EVERY DAMN TIME. He also followed and harassed full grown (over 18) Bpa-lack residents, even homeowners. It’s on the record already. The police let him do this; they were informed about it; they were aware of it.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          That white Ransberg guy who had Burgess’ stolen laptop in his knapsack was arrested along with the other three blacks on 2/7/12. Everyone and his brother should be searching for a photo, to see if that’s the guy who mysteriously shows up to meet Trayvon at the 711 store. They also had a large screen phone that the police took away, saying that it was being used to traffic in stolen merchandise. So, why isn’t the media interested in whose data was on that phone?

          Oh, is it possible that this phone could have linked back to someone important? There’s good reason for conspiracy theories to fly, at least there’s more reason for it than there is to disbelieve the moon landing, eh?

  8. Its like Spongebob Squarepants opposite world show. GZ is the first black man that wants an all white jury. White folks are donating half a million dollars to a black man that killed a child. Conservatives complaining about a black man being railroaded by the system no matter how many lies he told… its like opposite world.

  9. Ty Flair says:

    If the shoe was on the other foot,an Trayvon did the killing he would of had a all white jury. They would of made sure to say Fogen was white. They say jury of your peers,so since he is mix he gets black,white,and peru. You claim to be innocent so it should not matter what the jury is. You no you is guilty and your fear of black people tells it all.

  10. colin black says:

    jm says:

    March 2, 2013 at 8:29 pm

    If Robert Zimmerman Sr. is not GZ and RZJ’s biologic father, who named Robert Zimmerman Jr. and why did they name him after RZS? This is so confusing.

    Reply

    Like I say above if they were addopted as infants.
    Then there new parents chose the names.
    New Names.
    Wouldnt it be great if they both turn out to be illegal aliens.
    Weezeejr an foggen that is.

  11. colin black says:

    Its kind of ironic that weezeejunior an foggen have no grasp of the reality of raceism .

    In central an Southern American Countries.

    Its is rife an this includes the entire region obviously not the entire population.
    But its very sad .
    And this is how it works they have all sorts of descriptors for Natives or Spaniards that have Black ancestory.
    Mulato ect theres to many to name.

    Now the darker your skin is the further down the chain you are .
    Pure African bottom of the totem.
    Then it goes up the lighter yours skin is say 50 50 still low down the pecking orser.
    Then one third African an on an on tilll maybe like fooggen you have a smigen way way way back in your family roots.

    An these are the most vile evil sick raceists you could wish to meet towards Africans

    Even Nazi Skin Heads might ask them to tone it down a bit.

    An this is the heritage he wants to lay claim to.
    To dissprove that he is raceist?

    Yoda
    Fix cannot stupid.

  12. colin black says:

    Two sides to a story says:

    March 2, 2013 at 2:28 pm

    I’m under the impression that Fogen and Jr are Gladys children from another relationship – ?

    If not, no I don’t see any failure to acknowledge the white portion if Papa Z is their blood father as Hispanics are considered caucasian anyway. And they operate in an Anglo-predominant culture and are good English speakers anyway, so what’s to acknowledge?
    @
    On the only tv show gladise has apeared on with junior at her side.
    Havent seen the clip but read a transcript .
    An she say an those boys I treat them as if they were my own.
    I was under the impression that gadises siter is the nuturall mother.
    An they were adoppted by the zimmerclan.

    So unless robert senior was haveing seuall intercourse with his sister in law.
    How do we know whom there bio father is.
    Do they know.
    Can someone tweet weezzeejunior an ask whom are his an foggens genuine bio parents.

    I also got that from the phone chat when he blamed his father?
    For picking an Anglo Name
    As in when bith certificates changed if addoption was legal
    Then I suppose new documents would be required.

    Does there aunt/mother? live in Peru or States?

    • jm says:

      If Robert Zimmerman Sr. is not GZ and RZJ’s biologic father, who named Robert Zimmerman Jr. and why did they name him after RZS? This is so confusing.

      • Rachael says:

        He may well be their biologic father – I think it is their mother who isn’t really their mother but their aunt or something.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Yes, I recall Gladys saying this, and in one of the earliest blogs here, I believe someone posted more about the situation. As far as I know, we don’t really know that Papa Z is the bio father. Not that this matters, since they grew up with Papa Z at the helm as far as we know.

  13. Judy75201 says:

    If the point of jury selection is to seat an impartial jury, why is it done by the prosecution and defense at all? They will impose their own partiality in their choices. Would it not be best that it was done by an impartial panel of people with no dog in the fight?

    • Rachael says:

      It would be interesting if the potential jurors were behind a curtain (maybe a voice cjanger too) so no one would know anything about them but their answers.

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        “It would be interesting if the potential jurors were behind a curtain (maybe a voice cjanger too) so no one would know anything about them but their answers.”

        It would be really interesting when they figure out they can lie like a rug and get away with it.

        Q. Are you black?

        A. (local Grand Kleagle) Sho’ nuff, boss, black as the ace of spades.

        unitron

      • Rachel said,

        “It would be interesting if the potential jurors were behind a curtain (maybe a voice cjanger too) so no one would know anything about them but their answers.”

        I disagree.

        Jury duty is not supposed to be easy. Jurors need to own their decisions. I think it’s very important for them to face the parties when their verdict is announced.

        I do not like the idea that they should be permitted to hide from their decisions.

        I am also opposed to using professional jurors because I think they would be like people who serve on grand juries, see themselves as quasi cops and prosecutors, and find everyone guilty.

      • Rachael says:

        You misunderstood me. I said potential jurors – so they it could not be seen if they are black, white, disabled, old, young, etc. Of course once the jury is selected they should be seen!

        • I need to hear the sound and pattern of speech, which is often more important than what they say, and see how jurors react to my questions physically during voir dire. I get much useful information that way. I also have to see how they react to my client. The limitations you describe would render voir dire useless, IMO, plus reinforce suspicion and fear that the anonymous process is necessary to protect them because my client is dangerous.

          Sorry, but I think it’s a bad idea.

      • Rachael says:

        Sorry, but that makes no sense. First of all, why would that be one of the voir dire questions? A question might be more like have you ever had an unfavorable encounter with a black person. And it would make no sense for them to lie because once the jury was selected and they see that the person lied, they would be off that jury.

        • That question is too easy.

          Better to use a hypothetical.

          For example, if you were walking down the sidewalk and saw a young black male stranger in the next block walking toward you with no one else around, would you:

          a. continue walking toward him; or

          b. cross the street so that you could avoid him.

      • Rachael says:

        You do have a real good point there. Othe nonverbal language says more than words. I guess I wan’t thinkng clearly at all.

    • onlyiamunitron says:

      “Would it not be best that it was done by an impartial panel of people with no dog in the fight?”

      Who gets to decide if they really are impartial or not?

      You need to look at all of these questions as though you were a defendant whom the state (with their virtually unlimited resources) believes they can convict, and wants to convict, even though you know that you are in fact innocent, and then decide what you think is or isn’t fair.

      unitron

      • Judy75201 says:

        I agree that if I look at it through the eyes of the defendant I would want something entirely different than an impartial jury. I would want one that favored me. I also get your point about resources. But I’m still not sure it would not be best for an impartial jury to be selected by a panel that is impartial to begin with.

    • A jury is selected by each side eliminating the people it doesn’t want on the jury.

      The jury is composed of the people who are left after everyone the parties don’t want is excused.

  14. Jun says:

    A funny joke Karma could play on Fogenhats is a jury with white women, black people, mexicans, and an arab guy

    Watching his racist head explode during trial would be mind blowing as those groups above are the ones Fogenhats victimizes

    • Xena says:

      @Jun

      A funny joke Karma could play on Fogenhats is a jury with white women, black people, mexicans, and an arab guy

      That would be funny. It would also be funny if GZ had an all White jury whose spouses are Black.

  15. fauxmccoy says:

    follow

  16. Wow, so George Zimmerman is the first black defendant ever in history to want an all-white jury….

  17. Trained Observer says:

    Having seen it in action a couple of times … once on an all-female civil jury of six … and once on a Murder 1 jury of 12 with 11 females weighing the fate of a white male teen who fatally shot a black male teen (where the lone lily-livered white male juror initially tried to get the defendant off), my message to Fogen would be this: Don’t for a split second think that you’ll get an easier ride with white women.
    You might be amazed at the swift verdict a white female jury is capable of delivering for what you’ve done.

    • Judy75201 says:

      A freakin men.

    • roderick2012 says:

      Trained, I was thinking the same thing.

      The State should attempt to get as many women especially women with young and teenage children on the jury.

      George’s ‘no regrets’ statement during his Hannity interview will have them begging to give George the needle.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Amen, amen, amen. Never, ever, ever underestimate a white woman. We take our shit seriously, dude. We know what it’s like to be oppressed.

  18. roderick2012 says:

    “I write today to warn everyone regarding a probable defense effort during jury selection to exclude all potential jurors who are black,”

    Well this something that l was alluding to last year when l posted the demographics of Seminole County.

    I knew that the last refuge of the defense would be playing the race card.

    Oh well I’m not one to say ‘ l told you so’ LOL

    • onlyiamunitron says:

      And if it had been a black guy who shot a white guy, the defense would be trying for as few whites and as many blacks on the jury as possible.

      The defense team isn’t there to provide justice, they’re there to fight tooth and nail for their client against the full might and force of the state, to serve as a counterbalance to it.

      The result of that clash is supposed to be justice.

      The state is supposed to be able to take everything the defense throws at them and still convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt.

      As we have seen time and time again, not everyone charged by the state and subsequently convicted by the state is actually guilty.

      So if the innocent are to have any hope at all, or if society is to have any faith in the justice and accuracy of rendered verdicts, the always outgunned defense has to be free to make the prosecution really sweat for it.

      unitron

      • Drew says:

        If the races were reversed, this whole thing would have played out way differently, so I’m not sure your devil’s advocating has any application here.

        But seriously, eff this guy. What he’s doing is the definition of that old right-wing favorite “race-baiting”, and he’s totally allowed to do it, yet any time an actual Afro-Peruvian demands justice or freedom from racism / oppression, they’re the ones playing the race card. Yep!

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          Yeah, he’s totally allowed to do it, because the defense needs to be given as much latitude as possible, because, assuming Zimmerman’s guilt for the sake of discussion, otherwise their ability to defend innocent clients would be impaired, and if you’re innocent but have still wound up charged and on trial, you need all the help you can get to not get steamrollered by the state.

          unitron

      • Jun says:

        That is not the case here

        It is the defendant attempting to create an unfair situation for the victim

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          “It is the defendant attempting to create an unfair situation for the victim”

          There is no situation for the victim. The victim’s only situation is that they are deceased.

          Thiis is all about the state versus the defendant.

          unitron

      • Jun says:

        Well, the deceased the victim, has rights and protections under the law, and the issue that the defendant is bringing up is who started the whole altercation

        It is about the victim because the state and the feds are standing up for the victim

        The victim deserves to be heard fairly as well, considering he is unavailable

      • roderick2012 says:

        If this had been a black guy shooting a white guy the black guy would have been promptly arrested and charged with Murder 1, assigned a public defender and plead to Murder 2 and served the rest of his life in prison.

        How do you like them apples?

      • Malisha says:

        This is not about being fair to a victim who has been killed; it is about being fair to the State, which has a responsibility to protect future victims from being killed. If the prosecution does not do its job, you get defendants like Fogen running around realizing they really DO have the power of life or death over anyone they dislike, anyone they profile, anyone they create a good “story” slandering, anyone they want to control, anyone they believe should be unable to challenge their authority.

        That is the all-important job of the State. Trayvon’s gone because the SPD did not do its job from September 2011 until February 26, 2012. Had they done their job then, Trayvon would be alive today. NOW the State of Florida has to run to catch up to protect future innocents from being killed by armed racist (or armed non-racist) self-appointed gods.

    • Well, don’t forget that I wrote a couple of articles about it last year too.

      9/18: Zimmerman: Jury Selection and Batson v. Kentucky

      9/20: Zimmerman: Motion for a Change of Venue

    • Jun says:

      demographically, the only race unlikely to be on the jury is Asian

      Considering the numbers and demographics of Seminole County, and especially Sanford, there will likely be at least one or two black people on the jury

      They can’t be discriminatory in jury selection and anyways, I had a feeling that Fogenhats would be playing games with jury selection

      Is there any penalties for not properly seating a jury?

      • Rachael says:

        Depending on which side you’re on, you lose. Seriously though, what do you mean by “improper” jury and “penalty”?

      • Jun says:

        Tampering with a jury to create an unfair position for the victim because as it stands, it sounds like that is what the defense is trying to do

        The jury is supposed to be impartial and no favor for either party

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          “The jury is supposed to be impartial and no favor for either party”

          And never in the entire history of the world has a prosecutor tried to get a jury that would be on their side.

          The two sides battle all of this stuff (who’s on the jury, who’s admissible as an expert witness, etc.) out in front of a supposedly impartial judge. That’s the way the system is set up to protect the innocent individual from the might of the state.

          unitron

      • Malisha says:

        I’m laughing because I know a woman who served on a jury in Oregon. She was a conservative looking slim white woman with white hair. She answered every question honestly and she seemed absolutely perfect for the kind of jury that Fogen would have wanted. (She ended up on a jury that had nothing to do with the kind of case Fogen’s is, however; that’s beside the point.) Her husband and two kids are Black. That would never have come out in voir dire and in fact COULD NOT legally come out in voir dire. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Fogen has a lot to fear in this world; it is really hard to control EVERYTHING, even when you have a gun!

  19. Rachael says:

    @Xena: “Osterman didn’t help by saying that GZ cut-out leaving his home and wife after seeing Blacks in a car out front. It turned out that they were visiting some neighbors. Apparently, GZ sees all Blacks as a threat — other than the one who works for $700 a week as his security.”

    But that means he STILL sees black guys a threats, just when they are working for you at $700/week – they are threats to someone else. And that is WHY you have a black guy bodyguard, because they ARE a threat (in his opinion), more so than a white guy – do you see what I mean?

    Anyway, IF GZ REALLY wants to prove he is so nonracist, wouldn’t it behoove him to WANT at least 1 if not 2 black people serving on his jury?

    And isn’t it just more proof of racism to think he wouldn’t get a fair trial if the jury is made up of black jurors as well as white and/or any other ethnicities? Someone at the outhouse said the other day there cannot be any black people on that jury. What, like there are no white people who could or would come to the conclusion that GZ just outright killed him and it was not self-defense? I know for a fact I am NOT the only white person who thinks it was not self-defense.

    Jury selection is always, IMO, the most important part of the trial – and this is going to be a very difficult jury to select.

    • Xena says:

      @Rachael (((((Applause)))))

      Your analysis of how the killer and accused murderer of Trayvon Martin perceives Black men as threats hits the proverbial nail on the head.

      Someone at the outhouse said the other day there cannot be any black people on that jury.

      That “someone” used the handle “TheGeorgeZimmerman.” If it wasn’t the real GZ, then it was an impersonator speaking in first person as him. The blog owner allowed it, so only “the real” GZ can challenge it as his own words if he disagrees.

      What, like there are no white people who could or would come to the conclusion that GZ just outright killed him and it was not self-defense? I know for a fact I am NOT the only white person who thinks it was not self-defense.

      Funny thing about racists — when they see the pictures of the rallies with White people in them, they still see Black. Some of the most portent photos from those rallies are of Whites holding signs supporting justice for Trayvon.

      Also, Zidiots should go on Youtube and see the many videos by Whites that are not supportive of GZ.

    • blushedbrown says:

      @Rachael

      Excellent post.

    • tonydphotog says:

      I’m white, and it’s definitely not self-defense.

    • Jun says:

      it has been made especially hard considering what Omara has done with Junior and their assault on the media for 90% of this case, instead of doing work

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        “it has been made especially hard considering what Omara has done with Junior and their assault on the media for 90% of this case, instead of doing work”

        If the state has a strong enough case, it’ll get a conviction anyway, right?

        So no problem, right?

        Do you want a fair trial, or just one where you’re not offended?

        There’s a reason why we have an adversarial system and why the defense is allowed a lot of latitude.

        Because if the state has a strong enough case, it’ll get a conviction anyway.

        And if it doesn’t, maybe the case wasn’t strong enough to deserve having been brought in the first place.

        unitron

        • Unitron said,

          “Do you want a fair trial, or just one where you’re not offended?”

          I believe the probability of a fair trial diminishes significantly if the party with the burden of proof is prohibited from making public statements about the case and the evidence while the opposing party is permitted to make as many public statements as it desires without regard to whether any of those statements are true.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “I believe the probability of a fair trial diminishes significantly if the party with the burden of proof is prohibited from making public statements about the case and the evidence while the opposing party is permitted to make as many public statements as it desires without regard to whether any of those statements are true.”

            So if the party with the burden of proof (which in the actual trial will be the prosecution) feels that the defense is going beyond that which it is legally allowed, then that party, the one with all of the resources of the state at its disposal, is powerless to do anything about it?

            unitron

          • Yes, with the single exception of requesting a gag order, which Judge Nelson denied.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            Then that must be the way the law works and the defense is within those constraints.

            unitron

      • Jun says:

        How is going around spreading propaganda and lies, considered, copping up a fair trial?

        A fair trial is where both sides get heard in a fair manner, and within their media pleadings, there is no fair hearing for the victim or the state, and it causes a probability of difficulty seating a jury considering the massive influx of misinformation

        How is it fair to make up lies about a victim, when the victim is unavailable to defend themselves against such claims and can only defend themselves within a trial by the state?

        How is it fair that a dead kid has to prove his innocence in a matter where the defendant killed the kid, and made claims that the kid attacked him?

        There’s nothing fair and just about how they are assaulting the media

        If someone were to god forbid, kill you Unitron, would it be fair for them to do what the defense is doing to Trayvon, and you can’t even get a fair hearing on your innocence in the matter?

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          The fair hearing will be when the prosecution gets a conviction of my killer, regardless of what the defense has done.

          Except for the whole being dead thing, I think I have a lot more chance of justice as the victim with the state trying to convict my killer than if the state were trying to convict me for a killing which I did not commit.

          Such is the power of the state.

          And if the state feels the defense is doing something illegal in its statements to the media, do you seriously contend that the state is powerless to do anything about it?

          Pretend, just for a moment, just for the sake of understanding the point I am trying to make about the necessity for our adversarial system as a preventer of injustice, pretend that there is something we do not know, that there is something which is not as it seems and that Zimmerman is actually innocent.

          In those circumstances, which is more important?

          Trayvon’s reputation, or George’s freedom and future, such as it would be?

          How many innocent men and women would you be willing to imprison to protect the reputation of the deceased?

          unitron

      • Jun says:

        I think it is important that the judgement is made within reason, logic, and impartiality and fairness to both parties

        I can see your point if the case was about who did it, but it is not

        The defendant clearly stalked and went after this kid with a gun, then confronted the kid, a struggle ensued, and then the defendant killed the kid, and is staging a self defense claim

        In a hearing like that, it is what I stated in my first line

        The defense is attempting to use underhanded methods to taint the jury

        That is not a fair hearing with reason and logic and impartiality for both parties

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          The notification email said you were replying to you, but I’m going to be egotistical and assume it was to me and that WordPress just screwed up.

          (assuming that WordPress screwed up is just playing the odds)

          “The defense is attempting to use underhanded methods to taint the jury”

          Well, then if it’s actually illegal the prosecution will do something to prevent it.

          Unless for some reason they think it’s to their advantage not to do so.

          And if it’s not illegal, then it must mean that it’s allowed.

          Are there any methods to taint a jury which are not underhanded?

          unitron

      • kimmi says:

        If everything else you said were true, then if those men and women were really innocent, then the state probably wouldn’t be able to get a conviction anyway, right?

        Dragging a murder victim’s reputation through the mud with lies by a defense attorney for the sole purpose to find a defendant not guilty, should not be allowed by any ethical rules of conduct, imo.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          “If everything else you said were true, then if those men and women were really innocent, then the state probably wouldn’t be able to get a conviction anyway, right?”

          Google The Innocence Project sometime.

          unitron

      • kimmi says:

        Unitron said,

        How many innocent men and women would you be willing to imprison to protect the reputation of the deceased?

        None, because if everything else you said above were true, then if those men and women were really innocent, then the state probably wouldn’t be able to get a conviction anyway, right?

        Dragging a murder victim’s reputation through the mud with lies by a defense attorney for the sole purpose to find a defendant not guilty, should not be allowed by any ethical rules of conduct, imo.

        Professor, if you get a chance and don’t mind, could you please delete the incorrectly posted post(s) above. Thank you!

      • kimmi says:

        Darn, I goofed up the blockquote again!!

      • Jun says:

        Well accordingly, the word “fair” is used to describe a trial

        It may not be illegal, however, the methods used are far from using a fair hearing in methods, because it fails to empathize with the possibility that the victim is not here to defend themselves, and what they are spewing in the media has not been checked for credibility but is being sold as credible, and attempts to lament the system by claiming the victim is guilty, without due process

        What they are doing, attempting to taint a jury, by keeping what was already gone from the news for a long time, is making the trial unfair to be had and this is about a fair trial

        In what the defendant is claiming, the victim too has the same rights and has a fair say in those rights, although the defendant silenced the victim

        It is not a fair hearing

        When it hits trial and the jury is impartial, then it is a fair hearing

        Until then, what the defense is doing is underhanded, and not considerate of fair play

      • Malisha says:

        OnlyIAU, the question of whether the case should have been brought in the first place has already been answered. The prima facie case was made, the probable cause affidavit was filed and was not vacated, Judge Lester ruled, and his ruling was not overturned or even challenged. If there is some result other than a conviction, that does not negate the fact that there was a valid charge and due process thereafter.

  20. Drew says:

    Did we decide that we were all being civil here now? If so, I will self-censor what I was planning on saying about this guy.

    Also, I wouldn’t want CNN to accuse me of terrorist threats against Fogen.

  21. Malamiyya says:

    Just so that it’s clear: “Afro-Peruvian” may sound made up. And it may be a convenient thing for GZ to claim at the moment. And real Afro-Peruvians might laugh at George for claiming to be one. But the category isn’t an invention. It’s more-or-less the equivalent of saying Afro-American, and there’s even a Wikipedia entry that goes through its history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Peruvian

    • Rachael says:

      Like you said, just so it is clear – “it may be a convenient thing for GZ to claim at the moment,” having never identified himself as anything but white before.

      • Malamiyya says:

        If it seemed convenient, I have no doubt that George would claim to be Native American. And if he were offered enough boxes to check, he might even claim to be Racially Conflicted, which might be a significant underlying factor in what drives him.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Am suprised Fogen hasn’t laid claim to be a a FSU grad and genuine Seminole by now the way his stories keep growing.

        • blushedbrown says:

          @Trained Observer

          I found what I was looking for, so you can understand the joke.

          Warning some graphic language.

        • blushedbrown says:

          @Trained Observer

          The phrase “Come On, Son” is like the phrase “Forget it bout it” Depending in the context used, it came mean different things.

          🙂

      • Trained Observer says:

        @Blushed … Please consider my horizons permanently widened, thanks to you. C’mon, sons and daughters, too. … 🙂

      • Jun says:

        LOL at cmon son

        I think it is a another lie for some agenda of theirs

        They have all been claiming to be white for a long time and suddenly just recently have claimed to be Afro-Peruvian

        I know in the beginning they had a real blurry photo of some random black guy whom they claimed was their grandfather

        Then they went on a campaign about the white man being railroaded by the system

        and now it is Afro Peruvian LMAO

        It does not mean much anyways

        Just because you are black, it does not mean you can’t hate black people or a black person for being black

        To me, they are white or white hispanics, as that is what they claimed to before they were accused of murder

      • cielo62 says:

        LOL! I predict that ZERO Afro-Peruvians will be called to jury duty. Plenty of White Hispanics will, though. And THIS white Hispanic believes GZ is dead in the water GUILTY.

    • lady2soothe says:

      @ Jun
      (Lets see if I’ve managed to get the blockquote right this time)

      Just because you are black, it does not mean you can’t hate black people or a black person for being black
      To me, they are white or white hispanics, as that is what they claimed to before they were accused of murder

      It’s called Internalized Racism and it occurs when people targeted by racism agree with the distortions of racism, as exhibited by Gladys Zimmerman per Veronica Zuazo GZ’s ex-fiancée, “it was the mother who taught her children racial prejudice. She taught her children to wed whites for social and political gain.” The Zimmerman Family gave carte blanche to *Internalized Racism* which is often accompanied by a real effort to distance yourself from your heritage, therefore GZ came to believe racist assertions about his own people.

      INTERNALIZED RACISM: In a society where racial prejudice thrives in politics, communities, institutions and popular culture, it’s difficult for racial minorities to avoid absorbing the racist messages that constantly bombard them. Thus, even people of color sometimes adopt a white supremacist mindset that results in self-hatred and hatred of their respective racial group. Those people may loathe the physical characteristics that make them racially distinct such as skin color, hair texture or eye shape. Others may stereotype those from their racial group and refuse to associate with them. And some may outright identify as white. Overall, minorities suffering from *Internalized Racism* buy into the notion that whites are superior to people of color. Think of it as Stockholm Syndrome in the racial sphere. The impetus to turn racism inward occurs when they see whites receiving privileges denied to people of color.

  22. Opercarla says:

    I really enjoyed the law lesson today Professor. Thanks!

  23. type1juve says:

    I don’t care what color the jurors are. I just hope that they are intelligent enough to see beyond this bs that the defense is pushing.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Yes, and I’m hoping old geez Army guys who might relate to Wolfinger and Fogen Sr. can be avoided.

  24. FactsFirst says:

    Followed…

    Donated….

    Thanks, Professor!!!

  25. To quote Yoda….”fogen?…..screwed he is”

    Oh yeah….Follow

  26. onlyiamunitron says:

    If you pick 6 people at random from the population of Seminole County, and come up with a representative sample, demographics say 5 will be white and the other one has a 50/50 chance of being either black or other non-white.

    No conspiracy needed.

    In fact, it would probably take major shenanigans to avoid a majority white jury in that county.

    unitron

    • onlyiamunitron says:

      Ooops! Forgot to check “Follow”.

      unitron

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I agree, unitron. If they happen to get 2 blacks on the jury it will be a miracle simply due to demo factors. It could certainly happen though. I hope so. Fogen deserves a jury of Trayvon’s peers, IMHO.

    • Assuming 1 or 2 blacks are among the 6 seated in the box after the panel has been passed for cause, I contend that Batson would prohibit the defense from disqualifying them with peremptory challenges.

      That is, unless they have a legitimate reason independent of race to support a challenge, Batson would require the Court to deny it.

      • Jun says:

        I think it would stand because it is plain discrimination and racism and the conclusions to your posted filings with court have to do with the 14th which is equal protection under law, and he is attempting to use racism to prevent that, which is discriminatory for the victim

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          “…which is discriminatory for the victim”

          The victim is the victim, but the alleged offense is alleged to have been committed against the state and the laws of the state (and I think some places even use phrases like “against the dignity of the state” or something like that), therefore a jury which is fair to both the state and the defendent is what the law calls for.

          unitron

      • Malisha says:

        Jun, not “discriminatory for the victim” but “discriminatory for the People of the State of Florida.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Seminole County demographics have changed dramatically in the last decade or so. Since Florida summons notices come from both Supervisor of Elections listings and the DMV, the likelihood has increased for what the professor calls a miracle, or maybe even 4 white/2 black and/or other, or possibly an even split in a random pull. Much depends on compliance from the summons list, apparently projected at 300 to 500.

  27. Xena says:

    Does anyone besides me get the impression that Junior disrespects his dad by his failure to acknowledge his dad’s race?

    • jm says:

      I think it is a plan to not have GZ appear non-racist by refusing to acknowledge their father’s race.

      I think there is a reason for this and probably has to do with hate-crime charges they see coming down the road. It is obvious GZ profiled a black male and who knows what is on GZ texts that will incriminate him.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Oh, well, I take that back a little . . . truly, they may be diminishing the white business, like you say, JM.

      • Xena says:

        @jm. You know, I too get the impression that it’s GZ’s phone and internet communications that reveal his true nature, and that includes racial bigotry. We get a glimpse of that from his MySpace page.

        Osterman didn’t help by saying that GZ cut-out leaving his home and wife after seeing Blacks in a car out front. It turned out that they were visiting some neighbors. Apparently, GZ sees all Blacks as a threat — other than the one who works for $700 a week as his security.

        • jm says:

          Xena I think this whole campaign to paint GZ as not white but rather AFRO-Peruvian by the Z family and MOM is because they know there is incrimating evidence of a hate crime.

          Why bother going to all this trouble with PR media appearances trying to ensure the public believes GZ isn’t white and his father isn’t Caucasian but AMERICAN, hoping the conclusion would be drawn that an AFRO-Peruvian non-white person like GZ would not profile a black teen who he reported was suspicious, up to no good, an azzhole and a punk. Surely AFRO-Peruvian non-white GZ wouldn’t profile a black kid, right?

          I think Team Z is protesting way too much and there is a very good reason. Looking at the haunted overweight GZ, I think he knows he has more problems than second degree murder charges.

          I could be off base here but I am suspicious of the PR tour that is basically all about the non-racist, non-white AFRO-Peruvian GZ.

          • Xena says:

            @jm

            I could be off base here but I am suspicious of the PR tour that is basically all about the non-racist, non-white AFRO-Peruvian GZ.

            You’re not off base at all. Since the feds interviewed GZ’s friends and co-workers, we can bet that they delve into GZ’s siblings too. Some of their questions must have made Junior very nervous because he knows the honest answers. Remember, Junior dropped off the face of the earth for months and came back with his racist diatribes around October last year.

            Junior still hasn’t released anything correcting Randy Hahn.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes and while discussions of race are informative in this matter, the fact we must remember is that race is a side issue here, the charge is 2nd degree murder, not racial discrimination such and the like.

            I do not believe there will be much, if any racial issues raised in the course of the trial. At least the SP has indicated that they are not seeking to get involved in litigating such matters.

            Thus the defense might just as well be discussing coal mining in Brazil for all the relevance race is expected to have on reaching a verdict of guilt.

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr

            I do not believe there will be much, if any racial issues raised in the course of the trial. At least the SP has indicated that they are not seeking to get involved in litigating such matters.

            Exactly. O’Mara is attempting a distraction, almost along the lines of defending GZ by saying if he’s not racists, then he killed in self-defense. The law and standards for proving self-defense apply to the accused regardless of the race of the victim. I wish that a journalist would write on that issue. GZ has to prove self-defense even if his victim were purple with yellow polka dots.

          • cielo62 says:

            Hey a major redirection worked with Baez and CS. Maybe MOM is hoping to do the same.

            Sent from my iPod

          • Xena says:

            O’Mara can forget trying to make someone else guilty. GZ admitted that he killed Trayvon. Forensics evidence that Trayvon didn’t touch GZ.

            I didn’t follow the Casey Anthony case but after the jury rendered its verdict, I did read how they came to it. While some people are of the impression that Baez distracted the jury to believe that Casey’s dad was involved in the death of his grandchild, the jury did not consider that. Casey plead not guilty to murder and there was no affirmative defense involved like in GZ’s case. What the jury saw was that the state failed to prove that Casey murdered her daughter.

            Evidently, Baez believed that the way to place doubt in the minds of the jury was to say that Calee’s death could have happened another way. What are O’Mara’s options if he wants to do the same? There are none. GZ gave physical demonstrations on how he killed Trayvon.

      • type1juve says:

        @jm
        If fogen was bold enough to use that offensive handle on his Myspace page just imagine what his text messages reveal. Now remember that calm before the storm, before he was arrested. I have no doubt that he was bragging and talking shit about murdering Trayvon. Oh yes, I think team Z is very worried about what the Feds have on him. I believe that’s what this media blitz is all about.

    • truthseeker66 says:

      No. Jr is rejecting being “white” cause it is inconvenient at this time. It’s all PR.

      • Rachael says:

        Agree.

      • Jun says:

        The thing is Junior was claiming to be white for a while, then claimed to be a white hispanic, and now he claims that he is afro peruvian

        It is hard to argue that that family is not racist when there is a huge issue of their own racial identity as if it is a big deal and exonerates them somehow, otherwise why would they claim to be white for so long, but suddenly protest so much to be afro peruvian?

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @Truth –

        I’m waiting to see if anybody wil flat-out ask Jr. “Is your Dad your biological father? How about your brother?”

        If he is, the apple fell wa-a-a-ay far from the tree in this case.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I’m under the impression that Fogen and Jr are Gladys children from another relationship – ?

      If not, no I don’t see any failure to acknowledge the white portion if Papa Z is their blood father as Hispanics are considered caucasian anyway. And they operate in an Anglo-predominant culture and are good English speakers anyway, so what’s to acknowledge?

      • looneydoone says:

        Two sides to a story,
        >> “I’m under the impression that fogen and jr are Gladys children from another relationship-?”
        That would be most interesting as there are 4 zimmermann kids
        Eldest..daughter. Name, date of birth unknown
        jr…born 1981
        gz…born 1983
        Grace C/susie/dawn (whatever) born 1986

        That appears to bolster the notion they are not the biological offspring of either rz sr. or his wife Gladys.

        • blushedbrown says:

          @looneydoone

          Are you researching the family tree? Just curious……

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @ Would be interesting to find out that the two nephews (on Gladys’s side)were given to the Zimmermans but either (a) they did not go through the formal adoption process, or (b) the boys were brought here without immigration visas – and somehow Pops Zimmerman had his contacts get them Social Security numbers.

          30 years ago there wasn’t the pressure on illegal immigration that there is today.

      • looneydoone says:

        blushedbrown,
        Am I researching the family tree ? That would necessitate first knowing who they are, no ? They are quite mysterious. I found nothing about Rz Sr, Gladys, and/or their offspring, but am curious if anyone knows jr’s date of birth.

        There’s mention of an elder sister in several articles, no name and/or birthdate for her either

        • blushedbrown says:

          @Looney

          All I have at my fingertips right now are the name, dob and last known address for Pappa and Mama Zim…..

          I really never tried an extensive search on jr or sister…….

          But if I do come across anything of value for you I will post. 🙂

      • looneydoone says:

        blushedbrown,
        Thanks. A birthdate for jr would be most appreciated.

        • blushedbrown says:

          @looney

          Okie dokie

          🙂

        • Xena says:

          @looneydoone. DPTM once had a post on Junior’s arrests. Criminal cases provide the month and year of birth. For instance, ShelLIE’s birthday is this month. Maybe someone from that blog has retained the materials and can fill you in on Junior’s month and year of birth. I had it at one time (being interested in astrology) but cannot put my hands on it now.

      • looneydoone says:

        Xena,
        Thanks for the tip. I’ll check DPTM and see what’s available re; jr’s birthdate

      • looneydoone says:

        blushedbrown,
        😉

        Off topic
        new artist you might enjoy. Emanuela Bellezza
        She’s the one who performed “fotografia” with Juanes

    • cielo62 says:

      No, I thought RZJr said his dad’s race was AMERICAN! LOL!

      • jm says:

        cielo62: “No, I thought RZJr said his dad’s race was AMERICAN!”

        Is that a dodge or is RZJ just plain stupid?

      • Xena says:

        @cielo62

        No, I thought RZJr said his dad’s race was AMERICAN! LOL!

        LOL!! Well, so much for Junior’s education on civil rights.

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @Cielo,

        I get it:

        “Inside every fat (White) man
        is a thin Afro-Peruvian
        struggling to get out?”

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @Cielo –

        Do I get it?

        “Inside every fat (White) man
        is a thin Afro-Peruvian
        struggling to get out … “

        • cielo62 says:

          PiranhaMom- yes, you get it! In GZs car, it’s 2 Afro- Peruvians!

          Sent from my iPod

          • Now wait a damn minute……..6 years ago I weighed 267……now down to 180 / 185…

            There are NO AFRO PERUVIANS in me….never have been either..

            Mothers side….Great grandfather Black…..Great grandmother Navajo……

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @MountainMan,

            Hey, maybe some skinny Afrojos got out! Or Navafros!

            Congrats on the weight loss. I’m have a serious talk with my inner Viking-Algonkians about getting off my hips. (It’s all that Danish pastry plus the Fry bread that put them there.)

          • My weight loss began with back probs…..surgery….and a DX of degenerative disc disorder……….Pretty much first words from the doc?………”Get rid of the weight”

            Oh BTW my grandmother on my fathers side was a Chicagho 🙂

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Mountain Man.

            We hybrids are resilient, yes? Yesss!

          • BTW……Cielo…..have you sent me any cat videos on youtube?

          • cielo62 says:

            MMP- cat videos? That’s Xena’s specialty. I don’t think it was me…

            Sent from my iPod

          • Musta been that Caterpillar that was just here….

            Your comment all of the sudden gave me the mental image of a bunch of Afro / Peruvian clowns climbing out of the clown car in the circus……..Thanks for the laugh 🙂

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @MountainMan, @ Cielo –

            My guess was that Cielo’s SpellCheck read the typo “cas” as “car” and that Cielo intended it to read”case.”

            What sayest thou, Cielo? Or thy SpellCheck?

            Gotta admit, the picture of those Afruvians bursting out of the car is a hoot!

            Outta the schtruck, I should say …

            Hmmmm – maybe we’ve discovered the accomplice.

            If George keeps on eating those pizzas, INS is going to investigate his body!

          • Ya know….U lurn sumtin new ebbery day

            I never knew that pizza was Afro / Peruvian cuisine……..go figger?

          • cielo62 says:

            MMP and PirhanaMom~ DANG! My Ipod does some weird “corrections”! YES I meant “case” but “car” DID look funny after I went back to check!   Wait! Is all that MISinformation or DISinformation?  🙂

          • Go ask Alice…..I think she’ll know…..

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Right now Alice has her hands full with Knox and Stutzman.
            😀

          • PiranhaMom says:

            MountainMan,

            The pepperoni is alpaca …

          • Ya know….in all seriousness…..a lot of people up here raise Llama’s….elevations are close to their natural environment…

            Raised both for their wool……and to be used as pack animals……less damage done than by horses or mules.

          • cielo62 says:

            Watch out! Afro-Peruvians coming through!          

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Doesn’t the title of this Article tickle you to death? Why indeed! Afro Peruvians should want to stay as far away from white people as is humanly possible, in GZ’s world. For, even while he attempts to deny racism, he uses racially divisive constructs to do it. “Balcks” are prejudiced against him, because they think he’s “White”, but he can’t be prejudiced against blacks because he’s black himself, and is therefore prejudiced against Mexicans and in favor of Hispanics of whose Heritage he is so proud of, that he has theretofore taken great pains to hide from. Oy Vey!!!!
      If this isn’t the most powerful spin cycle known to man, I don’t know what is. The Super Collider at Cern has nothing on GZ!

    • Malisha says:

      I think Junior simply uses words as if they are magic talismans that have no actual meaning. He and the rest of his family seem to just say words in ways they think will get the results they want in the audience they are playing to. “We are Afro-Peruvians with paternal American race components” is code for “We get to decide who is what and thus my brother’s perception and declaration that Trayvon Martin was a suspect and thus a killable criminal was authorized and nobody gets to challenge it.”

      The mark of an abuser, however, is that he uses words to justify his abuse. There is nothing new in that. It’s the oldest abuser technology in the book and by that, I mean the oldest book too.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        @malisha — as my baby bro (a pretty bright fella) would say — zimmermans open their mouths and all i hear is “words words words words words words words words”.

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