Defense Raises Tempest in a Teapot in Trayvon Martin Murder Case

I write today about the defense motion for discovery filed yesterday in the Trayvon Martin murder case. Donald West wrote the motion and he is asking Judge Nelson to order the Martin family attorney, Benjamin Crump, to turn over the recording device with which he recorded his telephone conversation with Witness 8, whom we know as Dee Dee. That conversation occurred on April 2, 2012 and it is important to the case because she was telling him about her conversation with Trayvon on her cell phone when the defendant attacked Trayvon, mere moments before he shot him to death with a single gunshot to the heart.

Dee Dee was Trayvon’s girlfriend and she spent over 6 hours talking to and texting him the day the defendant shot him to death. She heard Trayvon describe the defendant as a “creepy man” who was following him for no apparent reason, a menacing man from whom he fled in fear. She heard him ask the defendant why he was following him and she heard the defendant respond by asking him what he was doing in the neighborhood. She heard what sounded like a scuffle with Trayvon yelling, “Get off me.” Then the connection went dead. We now know that the defendant fired the fatal shot mere moments later.

Mr. West relates in the motion that the State has provided the defense with a copy of the recorded telephone call between Mr. Crump and Dee Dee. However, Mr. West complains that the copy is very poor and mostly unintelligible. He wants a better copy and he wants it before he deposes Mr. Crump and Dee Dee.

He complains that the State says its copy is no better than the one he has and it claims it cannot force Mr. Crump to surrender the original recording device so that a new and possibly improved recording can be made.

This type of dispute is not unusual when third parties possess materials that the defense desires. The rules of discovery only require the State to turn over materials in its custody, possession or control. Here, the State is telling the defense that the material it requests is not within its custody, possession or control.

Presumably, Mr. Crump does not intend to part with the original recording or allow anyone to mess with it and potentially damage or destroy it.

The importance of the original recording to the defense is that it contains a statement by an important prosecution witness as well as potential evidence of coaching or tampering with the perception or memory of the witness by Mr. Crump, who was asking the questions. Now, mind you, there is no evidence or reason to believe that Mr. Crump attempted to pull a Serino and “correct” or change Dee Dee’s recollection. That is mere speculation in support of a defense request that prosecutors like to call a “fishing expedition.”

At this point, I do not believe that the defense has established that the copy it has differs from the copy that the State has or that the original copy that Mr. Crump has is any better. Seems like this could be determined in a reasonable and civilized fashion when the defense deposes Mr. Crump by playing the original and directing the court reporter to transcribe it. If the defense then wants to continue the deposition to another time to prepare questions for Mr. Crump about the recording, it may do so.

Basically, this is a tempest in a teapot and the defense needs to proceed with the depositions.

436 Responses to Defense Raises Tempest in a Teapot in Trayvon Martin Murder Case

  1. William Walton says:

    With it raining, there would be a blood dilution factor. As such the blood would be thinned by the rain water. The result would be a lengthened clotting time. Instead of scabs, fresh thin blood would be observed.

  2. Brown says:

    Now we have to dig back into discovery, unless someone knows when this picture was taken.

    • Brown says:

      how about this for starters

      Following the shooting:
      7:17 – Officer T. Smith (first there) arrives in squad car at Retreat View.
      7:17:40+ – Officer Smith arrives at crime scene.
      7:19:07 – Photo taken of Zimmerman’s head injuries by a civilian bystander.
      7:19:43 – Officer Smith takes Zimmerman into custody.
      7:25+ – Sanford police take a photo of George Zimmerman in a squad car.
      7:30 – Trayvon Martin pronounced dead at the scene by paramedic.
      7:40 – Sanford Fire Department treats Zimmerman for his injuries.
      7:52 – Zimmerman’s arrival at police station recorded on video.
      10:30 – Martin’s father and girlfriend return to the townhome, realize he is missing, they are concerned, but think he may be with a cousin.
      11:15+ – Photos of Zimmerman’s physical condition are taken.
      11:21 – Crime Scene Tech D. Smith photographs Zimmerman’s injuries and hands; uses Gunshot Residue Kit to collect GSR in Interview Room 2, Sanford Police Department (SPD). Zimmerman’s clothing taken as evidence after wife arrives with a change of clothes.

    • Brown says:

      finally a color photo, BTW that blood looks photoshopped.

      • JUN says:

        I thought I was the only one, there’s something a lil off with that pic…

        This was the mysterious photo that got passed around through email from a cell phone

      • Jun says:

        I believe Cheorge staged a bloody nose, either by self inflicting, accident, or wiping Trayvon’s blood on his face

        • Brown says:

          I believe the gun hit him in the nose. IMO

          • Xena says:

            You know, I think that the gun’s recoil hit him in the nose too. Wish that someone who knows about that gun, and shooting with one hand, could offer an opinion. And, we do know that GZ shot with one hand.

          • Brown says:

            If only we could get that guy who does those Jack ass Movie’s I bet he would do the experiment. Hell, he ran into Mike Tyson fist on a roast for Charlie Sheen. Hmmmm, let me see if I can find this dude.
            🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            i know quite a bit about guns and was raised around them by a cop. I seriously doubt that is a recoil injury. The arm movement backwards is way off for that, but hey…..it’s Fogen, so who knows.

          • Brown says:

            Yep, the people you know, are definitely not he who shall not be named.

          • racerrodig says:

            I’ve been around guns a loooong time and I doubt that the gun hit him. Now it is Fogen so if there could be anything abnormal, it would happen to him. The gun reacts up & back not straight back unless he is so weak armed, he allowed that. Even the wussiest of wusses has enough arm strength to have an upward arc.

            But OTOH it’s friggin Fogen. If I get some time tomorrow I’ll print out a few of his pictures and do some test shots.

    • Xena says:

      @JUN. Right. It doesn’t agree with the photo taken of him at the police station where he has no swollen or scared lip, and there is no “lump” on his nose either.

      Also, compare GZ’s facial expressions. In the police car, he looks a bit afraid — wondering. His eyebrows are up. In the police station, he appears angry. He has a frown.

      • JUN says:

        There’s something fishy going on… also the blood in the pic, its centralized… why is the blood not flowing from the nostril?

      • The original color version posted by the defense today of the B&W photo we saw in the discovery, looks photo-shopped to me because the high definition photos taken the night of the arrest at the station are very different. His nose could not have healed that quickly.

        But even if the photo accurately depicts him, he still has admitted that he was not in imminent danger of suffering death or great bodily harm when he shot Trayvon Martin to death.

        O’Mara better get an expert to examine that photo because he may be in for a most unpleasant surprise at trial, if he plays that card without first checking its authenticity.

      • Jun says:

        I am putting two and two together and I believe that George staged his injuries, hence them being so minor

        either way, does not mean much, because Trayvon had no trace of George at all on his hands or sleeves, so therefore, there is no way he made any contact at all with George by striking him

  3. Malisha says:

    The idea that he had a couple of scabs and rubbed them sounds plausible to me. The idea, also, that he had some kind of run-in with someone, providing those little wounds, thus being filled with rage and helpless indignation by the time he got out of his car to chase Trayvon down also rings true. Hurt earlier in the day; mad; “gonna show THEM”; sees Trayvon; “PUNK!”; goes after him; does not get immediate obsequious compliance with his “authority”; goes ballistic; etc. That does make sense to me. Scratches his scabs; says “I did it in self-defense.”

    • fauxmccoy says:

      i am not willing to speculate on the source of the wounds. what is definitive however is that they were superficial and that one of the medics who treated him (o’rourke, i believe) stated that the blood was dried when gz was being treated. considering the rainy, humid conditions of that night, i cannot fathom how the blood could have been completely dried if they were obtained during a scuffle with martin which had occurred less than an hour previously.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        That would be 17 minutes for the medics, 35 minutes to the station cameras. Fifteen minutes after the wounds preceded the shot being fired and a minute after the police arrive. About 17 minutes and the medics are observing dried blood. On a wet rainy night, the wounds and the blood have to be more than half an hour old. A doctor at the ER might have said 45 minutes to an hour and GZ’s story would have folded.

        I now see, as I already wrote, that these wounds and the blood were the key to his planned act of heroism. They were there to provide GZ with a ready made crime, with which to blame whomsoever he was to detain. The plan collapsed when TM didn’t present as a believable thug, leaving GZ looking like he’d apprehended a baby, if TM had lived to be observed. That is what made GZ so angry, he realized his lack of a believable thug, left himself exposed to prosecution. He blamed TM for causing him this trouble and he knew that he could not let this kid live, and still hope to be seen as a hero. So he killed him, then attempted to use his already well rehearsed story, of having been attacked by surprise and being beaten, then added “within an inch of my life”, to up the ante to justify the shooting.

  4. Malisha says:

    I don’t think head wounds happened at home before he left. I think they were either inflicted by the helpful photographer himself or some other way because Fogen did not know that he wouldn’t be able to simply get his prey trussed up for arrest without undue activity; he imagined he was going to walk up, confront him with a gun, scream “help” a couple of times, and then stand there victorious for the cops to catch up to his superman self. He (and Jeralyn and Dershowitz and it seems maybe Turley and assorted others) seemed very put out by the idea that he had to sustain injuries on the way to illegally restraining or outright killing “the suspect.” As if you should be able to do that without getting a scratch. All the defenders of Fogen forget that Trayvon Martin had a right to stand his ground.

    • jm says:

      “I don’t think head wounds happened at home before he left.”

      I actually don’t think so either. I was just joking about ShelLIE getting angry and hitting Chorge because she looks so hefty and so mean.

      Not having studied the evidence I think Chorge was a klutz who slipped and fell in wet grass and injured his head initially, self-inflicted injuries, but not on purpose. The injuries are not consistent with multiple slams against cement as Chorge claims. As far as the nose injury maybe Trayvon fought back against Chorge but he certainly didn’t do much damage to Chorge’s face if we are to believe Chorge’s story about being beat about the face and smothered. I think Chorge knocked Trayvon over, “mounted” him, drew his gun, and shot Trayvon in an angry rage. Chorge has a history as a bouncer and a bad temper.

      Just my theory. I can’t see a skinny teen wanting to initiate a fight with a “white” stocky stranger where there were plenty of witnesses on a Sunday evening when most residents are at home. The kid just wanted to get home to watch his basketball game.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        I’d like to think that GZ got his wounds by accident, unfortunately, I can’t see a way for accidental wounds to be uniformly superficial. Into a bush or a tree, if a branch pierces the skin, it’s just as likely to go deeper as you move against it. These were not thorn bushes or cacti with needles you could scratch along as you passed by.

        Just about anything that will break the skin for a couple of centimeters is going to go deeper at some points than others. It’s random. If George has drugs and/or alcohol as a reason for not wanting to go to the ER, then accidental injuries must be avoided, since he can’t know if they will send him there or not.

        But think about it, if he’s going to apprehend someone who he has not witnessed any crime, he knows he’s going to be guilty of felony! So he needs to come prepared with a “crime” to display on demand. A carefully bloodied head fits the bill quite nicely. It almost ensures that he’ll be a hero if he doesn’t kill anyone.

        The only thing that went wrong with the plan, was that Trayvon was just too easily recognized as a helpless child. GZ could not stand side by side with a live TM and have his claims given any consideration. They’d be laughable.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      There are problems that come with any theory we choose. If he obtained the wounds outside at or near the scene, it would have been pretty precarious a situation, to allow for much care to be taken. He must not get wounds cut deeper than capillary, or the Medics are going to insist that he go to the hospital, where tox screen and professional exam awaits. Anyone doing that for GZ after the murder, would be seen and implicated.

      Why would he need bloody wounds before? Well, what he was planning to do, even if it wasn’t murder, would require serious justification! Pulling a gun and/or detaining someone are serious felonies. You’d need to be able to say you were attacked and it’d be best to show some evidence of it.

      My guess is, if he didn’t plan on killing TM, but only wanted to hold him for the police, he’d need to, at the least, be able to claim that some crime had been committed. So carefully prepared wounds, that would not need medical attention, but would make lots of blood available to show that his story was true, would go along way towards protecting himself from kidnap, unlawful restraint etc.

      It that is the case, then his examination of TM revealed that, with this kids obviously childish personality, these claims of criminal assault just aren’t going to work. After all, no thug is going to scream MOMMA! GZ probably realized, that if he was going to get away with this, he’d have to kill the kid. Because TM was so obviously a non-threatening, helpless momma’s boy, no one who heard them side by side, was ever going to give GZ a seconds worth of doubt. He had screwed the pooch and he knew it, killing TM was his only way out.

      • jm says:

        Lonnie says: “There are problems that come with any theory we choose. If he obtained the wounds outside at or near the scene, it would have been pretty precarious a situation, to allow for much care to be taken.”

        Don’t you think Chorge just winged his story without an exact plan. He slipped and fell in wet grass striking his head or maybe he backed into a tree so he created the story about Trayvon banging his head against the sidewalk. His nose was injured (perhaps by Trayvon trying to stop Chorge’s assault) so he says it was broken by Trayvon. Trayvon started screaming for help, so Chorge said it was him yelling for help. After the shooting when Chorge was rubbing his head, it could be to evaluate if the wounds would match the story he was going to tell about Trayvon banging his head on cement.

        It’s hard to believe Chorge would have a plan to execute and inflict those head wounds on purpose. He seems like a reactionary person who creates stories to go along with bad circumstances he creates for himself.

        I think Chorge has a lot of rage inside of him and he took it out on Trayvon that night while trying to get recognition from his loser racist friends and estranged family because he was failing miserably in life.

        Then again, maybe ShelLIE was angry and inflicted the wounds after she learned Chorge would not graduate, etc and after he killed Trayvon he made sure the wounds would grow by rubbing his head so wounds would match his story.

        I doubt we will ever know how he got his surface injuries Chorge claims Trayvon inflicted.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Having an accident would mean he obtained those wounds by sheer luck. There isn’t that much luck in the world with wounds that trace as long as several centimeters in two different locations on the head. Not to mention that the supposed plan would be to commit a couple of felonies, absent anything else. For there would be no crime to justify GZ’s felonious actions. A stink would rise and he’d soon be on television, facing an innocent childlike Trayvon, whose personality would quickly reveal he was incapable of doing GZ any harm. Against the back drop of a heavy and powerful looking GZ it would not be a believable tale.

          As I said before, if he had just winged it, slipped and fell in wet grass or crashed into a tree, it is unlikely in the extreme that all of his wounds would be so superficial that they would not require a trip to the ER. That is what he must escape, because he’s probably taken drugs and drink to bolster himself for the exercise.

          Planning? Yep, he needs to plan this one very carefully. You can’t just go out and commit felonies without planning, even if they don’t involve capital crime. Just for drawing his weapon without cause he faces 20 years. For detaining a youth while armed, he faces years behind bars. His only way to protect himself, against such an eventuality, is to have a pre-prepared defense, one that allows and/or gives him good reason to have acted. Before he leaves home on some notice, if he plans to become a hero by taking some action, he needs to carry with him a defense he can count on to be there, and not be so terrible as to require professional medical examination. Like a lawyer, who will not ask a question, that he doesn’t already know the answer to, GZ cannot commit to this plan to make himself a hero, without knowing that a defense is already there.

          Finally, there are only a very few minutes in time, for him to have any supposed accident. That brings us back to the question: How does the blood from this injury congeal in well under 5 minutes and most likely less than 2.5 minutes? If the injuries were accidental, there could be no guarantee that they would not require medical treatment via a trip to the ER with a drug screen and professional exam. There being no time for the blood to congeal, the blood would not have these discrete trails, but would, instead be smeared.

          One cannot account for only a selection of the conditions surrounding these wounds and the blood spatter, one has to account for it all. The only theory that does that is, one where the wounds are created somewhere else, before he leaves home, where he has the time to ensure that the wounds are entirely superficial. It is because of the increased time, home made wounds entail, that explains the blood being congealed in less than the 2.5 minutes proximal to the shot being fired and the picture being taken. Because that is what his defense requires. Accidental wounds would most likely ruin his defense if that were to have happened. He could not take that chance.

          It goes like this: His plan is to detain a target and claim credit for fighting crime. He has spotters who have located a target, but there is no crime to justify any further action. Thus he’s deprived of the opportunity to engage his planned heroics. The solution is to come with bloody wounds already in place. Wounds that present with copious bleeding, yet are so superficial as to easily escape professional inspection.

          Thus the bloody wounds on his head are actually the key to his act of heroism, because they represent the required crime he needs, to justify the heroic action. The unplanned killing comes about, when he realizes his story is a no sell, because the extreme childish passivity of the nature of the child. GZ blames the child for the predicament he finds himself in. If only the child had been a bit more believably thuggish, GZ’s plan would have worked, he thinks, so Trayvon is now responsible for thwarting GZ’s plans and for that he must die, since it’s GZ’s only chance to sell the story.

          The evidence of this kind of thinking is evident as well! GZ still tells the original story he had planned, that TM came out of nowhere to attack him at the ‘T’. The only thing wrong with this well rehearsed story is, the body is 40.5 feet away!

          While, consider this, if TM had actually lived, the 40.5 feet would be easily explained away.

          • racerrodig says:

            About 85 % of this would get my vote as a great opening statement.
            The remaining 15% is great set up / background. How do you do it.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Unlike most investigators, I gather facts and work forward from there, creating an illusionary narrative that puts all the facts in place. Then I examine the details that don’t fit, and I then work backwards to see where they can be fitted. After I have a good narrative that accounts for as much as I can, then I sort of try to view it “from the side lines”, looking for the nexus of critical details, in other words, if this had happened, then this is what had to have been taking place as well. Then you take a closer look at what had to have happened along side what did happen, and if the narrative is false, insurmountable obstacles/anomalies appear.

            Evidence can only lie by being contrived to give a false impression. People, however, have more options to falsify. So, believe the evidence more than the people who observe it, but only believe the evidence itself, if you cannot imagine that it has been contrived. If it is possible to contrive evidence, then it is possible to fool witnesses, and this is exactly the objective of the criminal mind.

            So, you work backward, then forward and backwards again and take looks from the sides, it’s like panning for nuggets of gold. The chaff and waste eventually washes away, leaving the hard stuff behind.

            It puzzled me for a long time, why a law student, would go out on a hunt that both the law and the rules of NW definitively prohibited. What would be the percentage in that? He’d have broken every rule and the law besides! How could he think that would make him a hero? When, any fool could see, all he’d wind up with is a harmless kid being held, who had a right to be in the neighborhood. What could he possibly do in that event? The answer is, kill the kid! That’s the only thing that prevents the comparisons from being made. But that is only a stall, since the truth would probably come out anyway.

            So then, what does GZ need to make the planned hunt okay, despite the laws and the rules? The answer is: evidence that a crime had been committed. So then the question is “what kind of crime can be carried and displayed under a wide variety of circumstances”? The answer is: Bloody wounds! They can be claimed to have happened outside of the sight of any witnesses who later appear. They are hard to refute because, it’s hard to believe that a “pillar of the community” would actually harm himself, for the purpose of misleading the public, about a crime, it doesn’t appear he would or could plan.

            But think about it, if George leaves his house bleeding from carefully designed wounds, he has a “crime” that can be used in a variety of ways, to excuse all breaking of rules and justify breaking the law as well. Those wounds were designed to shield him from the prohibitions of rules and laws. But, because they were created before any other actions were taken, they must not be professionally examined, if the time of their creation could be determined at all. This means that the creation of these wounds could not be left to chance. They are an integral part of the nights activities, however or whatever else happens. Only the how of obtaining them need be changed to fit what actually takes place.

            This leaving home on the hunt for this project, is a “high octane” emotional performance, that required dedicated intent. It is likely that medication and alcohol, which lowers inhibitions and increases calm, would be taken to steady the nerves. If so, it adds yet another reason why the ER must be avoided at all costs, and of course, to accomplish that, the wounds must be and remain superficial, and not require professional treatment.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Next up is GZ undoing himself. He rehearsed a plausible story, probably several. As a NW, who knows that he cannot be either on patrol or following, he leaves home with a story about going shopping. To cover up notification, he “spots” his target over by FT’s cut through, a good story for night time affairs, since it comes through a “strange” area. (Of course, we are later to learn it wasn’t so strange to find people walking that way at all).

            But George has his bloody head wounds to shield himself, which ever way the story plays out. The first problem arises, he can’t find the target, where he has been told to look. So he retraces his path, looking to pick up the trail. (tchoupi’s work), His fellow Watchers see his predicament and call him to correct his error, by pointing out that the target is still there at the mailboxes. George goes back and spots him, and there the play begins.

            According to the script, GZ needs to frighten his target into engaging actions that can be portrayed as strange. He accomplishes this by shining his lights on the target as he shelters in the mail shed. Unbeknownst to GZ, however, his target is on the phone and gives notice of GZ’s hostile presence. So, an explanation of TM’s actions from that point onward are explained. Bad news for GZ!

            When TM leaves the shelter of the mail boxes, it is actually raining harder than it was when he first got there. Meaning he was already spooked. But he contains himself enough to walk, probably out of GZ’s sight before he actually runs. However, GZ has his little defense shield in place, and since this gives him the lattitude he needs to break the rules and the law, he sets up the scene with “he’s running” to the NEN operator, then he exits his car. This one cannot get away, because George has intentions that will not allow it to happen that way. Meanwhile TM is unaware of how dangerous the situation really is, so he quickly assesses that not seeing GZ, means that he’s no longer being followed, and continues his walk home. Only to find GZ behind him again.

            GZ intends to grab and hold TM for the police, using his wounds as a reason and lawful cause for doing so. That would make him a hero, if it would play out that way. Only trouble was, TM was still extremely childish far beyond his years. If only TM was more mature, the story would have worked. But, since TM was so extremely childlike, the planned story would quickly reveal as absurd. A whining, crying child asking for his momma, isn’t going to sell as a thug of any kind. GZ blames TM’s lack of maturity for inexplicably thwarting his heroic plans and decides that TM’s demeanor and character must not be allowed to display. By killing TM he accomplishes, preventing immediate challenge to his claims of attack, while making himself the only credible witness of all the events of that night.

            GZ had a well rehearsed story, for how things transpired. In his drug and alcohol induced state, he can do no more than recite it verbatim. It all occurred at the “T”, where he did not follow TM, but was instead attacked while attempting to retreat. The trouble is, he was unable to modify the story as needed, thus he cannot account for the fact that the body is 40.5 feet away from where it needs to be, for the purpose of his well rehearsed story.

            This story could have easily been modified to account for this distance south of the ‘T’, but Georges becalmed state, as evidenced by his bio stats, precluded critical thinking.

          • Lonnie, I’m going to feature and main page your comment so that we can all discuss it together in one place.

            Fred

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Thanks Professor, but note that it’s really two comments, the one immediately up thread is part of this one.

            Otherwise I’m thrilled to discover you find my comments so worthy, I do try very hard. I appreciate the acknowledgements.

          • I combined two of your comments at 9:19 and 9:57 am this morning. Let me know what you would like me to include and I will edit it into the post.

            Fred

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Sorry, I spoke too soon, you got it right the first time. Just that I had 300 plus messages in my blog folder, so I got a little antsy.

          • You deserve to be acknowledged for the excellent and thorough work you do and my only regret is that I have not featured you more often.

  5. Malisha says:

    Back to the issue I have with the bloody head pictures:

    1. The first was taken out there on the scene less than a minute after the killing. It even has a time-stamp on it, in the original.

    2. Then the EMTs clean him up in the squad car, failing to save the blood for analysis at the crime lab, ain’t that cute?

    3. Then he gets transported by buddy Timothy Smith to the station house in the squad car with the gun lying on the front seat. Wow.

    4. Then he gets out in the garage of the station house and his head is just fine and he looks right smart.

    5. Then he gets inside and somebody takes a photograph of his head and the same injuries reappear and the same blood trails appear. HUH? (no, make that, “Hey wait a minute wait a minute, hey back up a minute, OK OK? Huh?”)

    Homie.

    Oh, and

    6. Then the next day he has two big-ass bandaids on the back of his boom boom head gebounce gebounce and another biggie on his nosey wosey in case the blood decides to start again and go down the same trails again, ’cause’n you KNOW that can happen at any time. And — my personal favorite …

    7. After the FIRST photograph is given to ABC by “someone” O’Mara is asked by a journalist what HIS response is to seeing it and he says he is not sure “how or if” the photograph is going to be used by the defense.

    (Well that would probably depend upon whether he is hired to defend anyone against charges of obstruction of justice, tampering with evidence, fraud, or the like; it probably has little to do with any murder charge, which made O’Mara start to draw attention to the allegedly broken nose in pretty quick order. That, folks, is called “counter-irritation.”)

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Exactly, from the site to the station, despite the clean up, the blood trails show no change at all, as if they’ve merely flipped and cropped the photo taken at the crime scene.

      That and what kind of “accidental injury” leaves wounds that do not go deeper than capillary depth anywhere along the course of them?

      If he cut himself on a bush or the sign, he had to do it twice, and never once did any uneven puncturing occur. Well, we know he could not have gotten these wounds in any fight that never happened. The injuries could not have been rolled in wet grass either.

      So where did he get superficial wounds of uniformed depth from? Only by having them carefully incised by someone, is my guess.

  6. Malisha says:

    Somebody asked what Unitron said to provoke my answer, upthread. I don’t remember. My impression was that Unitron was getting caught up in a critique of Crump’s credibility, and sort of posing questions in a way that suggested that the support Trayvon’s family got after the killing was in some way less than respectable, less than appropriate, shady, dishonest, etc., and that really touched a nerve, because just the opposite is true (those adjectives apply to the support GZ was getting after the killing). Massive projection has been part of this case ever since the original statement, “He looks like he’s up to no good.”

    So that’s what touched off the polemic, on my part. If it came off as an ad hominem attack on Unitron, I’m sorry because that was not my intent. But I do have a tendency to take on all comers.

    Now to answer the quasi-charge of racism leveled (sort of) at me by Unitron (whom I am sure I have irritated but whose opinion I am not prepared to derogate or discount entirely), my first piece of advice is that I freely admit to being racist. So that doesn’t scare me. I was born and raised in a racist culture (the United States of America, small town New Jersey to be more precise) and I have worked all my life to recognize those vestiges of racism that still affect my thinking and my learning. But my comment about Shellie having to escape by being a “wetback” and going paper-free to Mexico was humor, and not racism. Here’s how it goes.

    On Monday nights I used to attend a comedy writers’ networking meeting at a local bar. The leader would always give an intro because some of the attendees were always new. She’d start by saying, “We are all comedians here. This is about how we do our comedy. What is funny to some is not going to be funny to others. So if somebody says something that you find offensive, the general rule is: EFF YOU, GET OVER IT.”

    We all start off with a hearty laugh no matter how many times we have heard it before.

    This does not mean that I either consider what I said racist or that my response to you, Unitron, about it, is “Eff You get OVER it.” Neither one. But here’s how the humor runs on that particular post: We know that native-born Americans often refer to undocumented Mexicans as “wet-backs” because it is presumed that they crossed the Rio Grande somewhere in the dark of night on foot, getting their backs wet. At least that’s how I understand it. Now if somebody is doing the reverse, and trying to escape this country to Mexico, but can’t do it with a passport the up-and-up way, she might try to ford the Rio Grande and get her back wet, and it’s a “reversal joke” which is a quite common humor device. Like people out in boats trying to leave New York and get to Vietnam. See? So I used that joke to taunt Shellie.

    So now we get right down to it, to the comparative niceness or meanness and especially the name-calling business of the folks on this thread, and I’ll speak here only for myself. I call George Michael Zimmerman degrading, denigrating, demeaning, unkind, mocking, contemptuous, disdainful names. Some of them I make up; some I adopt from others. Why do I do this if I know that it is, in principle, wrong and unkind? Because I can.

    Damnit, the level of rage I feel about the fact that no matter what is done to George Zimmerman, that will not bring Trayvon Martin back to life is so galling to me, so infuriating, so grossly atrocious that I sometimes feel “my head is going to explode” because of the inequity of it. Had GZ been arrested right away I probably would not have eve heard of the case, of course. But then learning how the police and prosecutor protected him from the natural results of his having killed an unarmed innocent stranger, even to the point of lying about the evidence, and learning about how he carried on with his “poor me that big bad thug bumped my head” routine made me so much madder that there was no room left in me to care about acting nice. You see? It was, at that point, about MY SURVIVAL as a human being in the world and in the same world with George Zimmerman and in a world that Trayvon Martin had been removed from.

    Unitron, my real wish is that I could arm myself, go to Florida and kill the amoral lying psychopathic trash talker (“What the Fuck’s your problem homie?” “Problem homie?” “PROBLEM HOMIE?” YOU EXPECT ME TO LISTEN TO THAT SHIT?) myself but nay, I cannot, I am a civilized person and it hurts to be one, sometimes. I don’t believe in the death penalty and it hurts not to want that, sometimes. I really do believe that George Zimmerman deserves the benefits of the Eighth Amendment to the US Constitution and it hurts to believe that, too. But I am telling you my feelings.

    To make it less horrible on myself when I get to feeling that I cannot contain this amount of rage and indignation inside myself, I give myself permission to call George Michael Zimmerman: Cheorge, Fogen, Georgie-Porgie, an impotent wannabe, a puffed up little would-be hero, a busybody, a racist, a punk, an asshole, and whatever else I have called him. Damn, I don’t even remember WHAT I have called him. Let him sue me already.

    And I give myself permission to make fun of Shellie. SHE chose to stand by her little button-nose baby-doll when she knew that he had gunned down an innocent kid; she lied for him; she goo goo talked to him when he was in jail from whence he should never have emerged; on and on; she put herself where she is now and if, as I suspect, he turned on her and she is trying to escape, OK, who cares. Really, I do not care, even though I have a long history of being an activist for battered women.

    So that’s where I am. I indulge myself with name-calling against GZ, Shellie, O’Mara at times, the Outhousers, Dershowitz (may his name be forgotten), West, Robert Jr., Daddy Zimmerman, Gladys the Innocent, etc. It gives me some measure of equanimity to be able to get off these little zings.

    Am I lowering myself to their level?

    Well, there, I have to say a categorical NO. Once I target and kill an innocent person, pretend that I had to do it because THEY were the bad guy and tried to hurt ME, solicit money from everybody because oh poor me I can’t take a public defender like poor folks have to do, quit working and go on the dole but stay critical of others who have not “made it” in the rough and tumble world, lie cheat and steal, insult people whom I have harmed, pretend that there was some divine plan for all this to happen, and declare on national television that I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO REGRETS ABOUT ANY OF IT, THEN you can come in here and accuse me of having sunk to their level.

    And not a minute sooner, please, thank you.

    And I do sincerely respect your position on this blog and I do genuinely consider the things you say and I have no urge to call you names other than Unitron.

  7. Lonnie Starr says:

    Let me try this embed thing again:

    • jm says:

      Can LLMPapa’s videos be used in court or a varient of them if not LLMPapa’s? The truth of the videos is indisputable and makes a mockery of Chorge’s story.

      • Exhibits that summarize evidence or explain its significance can be admitted into evidence and used for illustrative purposes, typically by a summary witness. I think some of his videos could be used for that purpose although I do not believe the court would permit the musical accompaniment because of its emotional impact. Only a just-the-facts presentation would be permitted, I think.

        Illustrative exhibits are admissible in the court’s discretion, but they do not go back into the jury room during deliberations. The reason is they are not evidence. They are summaries of evidence.

        They must be shown to opposing counsel far enough in advance of the time they are offered into evidence so that opposing counsel can review them and make any appropriate objections.

        Appropriate objections usually challenge the accuracy of the summary and/or its alleged disproportionate impact.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        They won’t be used if they contain any emotional content like stirring sound tracks or commentary that characterizes the facts. They can use any that plainly and simply display the facts in an unemotional/dispassionate way, sticking dryly to the evidence.
        Any drama must come from juxtapositioning one piece of evidence against another, without drawing any conclusions. Then that might be used.

        • jm says:

          I am thinking of the gravity blood flow link you posted is an excellent example of Chorge being on top of Trayvon when he shot him if the other evidence supports this theory.

    • Malisha says:

      Now you’re trying to use GRAVITY to impeach the credibility of a decent American! How low can you get?

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Hahaha… Of course, in reality the blood flow is over a very small area, so it seems like it would not take much time to happen. But it’s not the area, it’s the shape that I’m talking about. In 2.5 minutes of vigorous activity in the rain on wet grass and concrete, blood simply doesn’t get to assume the configuration in time to congeal, before getting seriously messed up.

        Where the blood should be smeared all over the back of the head, we see instead, discrete trails of it. That is what takes the time I’m referring to. Because the blood has to flow almost undisturbed, then stay in place for several minutes to congeal. There is only less then 2.5 minutes for this to happen, if the blood started flowing during the claimed fight.

        That’s why one has to search for a time, when there’s time enough available to trace wounds of uniform depth, then position the head to create the blood flows, then hold it so it congeals. This has to be done before going out on the scene. Because, if what is claimed happened, did in fact happen, this pattern would have been seriously messed up.

        Then you add in there’s no grass or other debris sticking in the blood mass, even as it shows on the shoes. You get that Trayvon never touched GZ with his hands, AND GZ’s head never touched the ground. So I ask again, where were these wounds created?
        The most plausible answer is at home. Otherwise we have to suppose that someone was in the truck with GZ at some point. Or they met him on site during the available time there.

        • jm says:

          Lonnie says: “So I ask again, where were these wounds created?
          The most plausible answer is at home.”

          ShelLIE? She looks like one tough chick who I wouldn’t want to anger. It would be interesting if there were blood stains inside Chorge’s shruck. . Can the prosecution team still check? I thought I read you can never get rid of trace blood even if Chorge and ShelLIE tried to clean it up.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            GZ’s truck is pretty much off the scope as far as evidence is concerned. If they find blood in there now, they’re no way to tell when it got there.

            Interestingly, officer Smith, knows RATL well, having responded there several times. Had he stopped on TTL and gone to the back of the buildings from that position, likely the EMS and other responders, would have blocked GZ’s truck in. Instead he drives all the way around to come in, using a cut through from RVC. Talk about “as luck would have it”, eh?

  8. Malisha says:

    I can just see the opening cross-examination of DeeDee by West:

    “Ms. [name omitted] is it not true that you are in fact two different girls?”

    DD: No.

    West: No? Can it be assumed that you are resisting the obvious necessity to change your answer to yes?

    DD: No… um… I…

    West: YES OR NO!

    DD: To what?

    West: Your Honor, will you order the witness to answer the question?

    JUDGE: Which witness? There are two of them.

    • Jun says:

      LMAO

      West: According to my sources we have found your twitter. This is you tweeting about Justin Bieber?

      DD: My twitter is a private account and only those I allow to follow and can follow me can see my tweets, so I believe you are incorrect at seeing any of my tweets

      West: Liar, David Piercy said so.

      DD: Who the hell is David Piercy?

      West: AHA, so you admit you know him

      DD: You’re a creepy strange man

      RZ Jr: White Black White We are not racists

      West: So now David Piercy has stated you falsely pinged your cell phone logs?

      Bernie: Your Honor, objection. I dont know what to object but its objectionable.

  9. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    I took a trip over to the other side to read a little bit on how they took the latest motion. Did any of you know that SDC is saying that he knew a long time ago, by connecting the dots, that there is two DeeDee’s? Yep, he says that the one Crump interviewed is not the same one that BDLR interviewed. All I can say is…wow…I think they are smoking something over there.

    • Rachael says:

      Yes, that has been a long-held theory at the outhouse that DeeDee is a compilation of 2 females.

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        OMG…so is it safe for us to assume that this is what MOM and West think as well? I know that they read over there as well as all the other blogs, but seeing how they have been in the last hearings convinces me that they read more of the wacky stuff from over there.
        I guess they are hoping that it is two different girls, for what…to try and get Corey’s arrest affidavit thrown out saying she based it on Crump’s interview with DeeDee and not the one with BDLR? Is that even possible if it were true? Two different DeeDee’s- how freaking stupid.

    • Malisha says:

      They’re not smoking something; they’re snorting something. And it ain’t morning coffee.

    • jm says:

      Maybe they are confused by the name Dee-Dee and think there is a Dee and a Dee?

      • racerrodig says:

        Here’s how easily they are confused. This is a true story.

        Back in early Sept. one of the Zidiots posted a link to the results of an ongoing random internet poll on Fogens guilt. At the time it was approx. 90 % guilty of at least manslaughter. That Zidiot, I won’t name BiggRedd stated that was proof he would not be convicted as the poll was not unanimous.

        I had to reread that at least half a dozen times. Needless to say I had to go on the attack on that one. Redds stated that’s the fact, it’s not unanimous so he walks !! I tell you all no lie !! Seems a poll is a jury to them.

        Easily confused…..You Betcha!!

        • Xena says:

          Here’s how easily they are confused. This is a true story.

          Hahahaha!! The Zidiots also seem to believe that the judge can sue sponte, dismiss the case. Even now, they think that if there is proof that attorney Crump lied about DeeDee, that the judge will sue sponte dismiss the case. In the alternative, they believe that Corey will drop the charges if they intimidate and demean her enough.

      • Jun says:

        They fail to realize that Deedee is a codename used to protect her identity and its so obvious why

        LMAO I feel sorry for any black girl named Deedee due to the Zimmernuts trying to harass and intimidate who they believe is Deedee when it was not even the witness’ real name

        But they can file federal and state charges for stalking, harassments, and threats against the Zimmernuts (the ones who the Zimmernuts thought were Deedee)

      • Malisha says:

        As opposed to the Ding and the Dong in Fogen’s house.

    • Xena says:

      Did any of you know that SDC is saying that he knew a long time ago, by connecting the dots, that there is two DeeDee’s?

      He and his minions think that all Blacks look and sound alike. Since they don’t want DeeDee to testify, they can keep their bigotry going, even to alleging that Beyonce talks like DeeDee and could be her. Then, they’ll try to find tweets to Crump from a handle such as “JZiscool” to argue that’s Beyonce talking to Crump so she must also be DeeDee.

      • I guess that constitutes an admission against personal interest. He has double vision because he drinks too much.

        He should try closing one eye.

        Then he would only have one Dee to deal with.

        Of course, he could also stop drinking.

        • Xena says:

          He should try closing one eye.

          Then he would only have one Dee to deal with.

          In that case, wouldn’t he look like a drunken pirate? (snicker)

  10. Malisha says:

    Unitron, nobody has to come up with one event that they can say actually happened; what we are saying is that anybody without an anti-Trayvon (and probably racist) agenda can easily RULE OUT what did NOT happen that night. What did NOT happen that night can, in fact, be ruled out by evidence alone. Here is what did NOT happen that night.

    1. Zimmerman (hereinafter “GZ”) did not become distracted from his shopping trip by the fact that a kid in his late teens with a grey hoodie was walking at a leisurely pace in the rain.

    2. Trayvon Martin did not circle GZ’s vehicle.

    3. GZ did not exit his vehicle to get an address to give to the NEN dispatcher.

    4. Trayvon Martin did not leap out from behind bushes OR appear suddenly having “emerged from the darkness” to say either, “What the fuck’s your problem homie?” or “What’s your problem?” and then “Well now you have a problem” to GZ.

    5. Trayvon Martin did not, without provocation and without being touched or threatened, suddenly punch TZ in the nose hard enough to throw him onto his back on the ground, proceed to “mount” him and then punch his face more than three times while smashing his head on the ground more than three times while also smothering his nose and mouth and assuring him (GZ) that he (Trayvon Martin) was going to kill him (GZ).

    6. GZ did not reach into his holster while pinned on the ground on his back and having his head and face pummeled, pull out his gun, aim at Trayvon Martin, carefully avoid shooting his own left hand, and shoot one hollowpoint bullet directly into Trayvon Martin’s chest at intermediate range which bullet entered the hoodie at point blank range, which bullet entered Trayvon Martin’s chest at NO ANGLE of entry, clean straight in.

    The rest of it, including DeeDee’s age and Crump’s veracity, are not yet ruled out or ruled on. Certain issues included in the catch-all phrase “the rest of it,” such as DeeDee’s age and Crump’s veracity, are irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent to the issue of whether or not the story provided above in numbered paragraphs 1 through 6 is true or was even physically possible.

    Now for the rest of it, and I think this is important, because you seem to be a serious commentator (although it appears that each time there is some attention-getting wriggle from the O’Mara camp, a new commentator appears looking quite “interested and objective and impartial” who is raising quite irrelevant questions that appear to raise doubts in side stories and silly tangents), I would like to directly address you about POSITIONS. The POSITIONS we take and the POSITIONS we defend and feel attached to, and even proud of. Yours, if I have understood you, is:

    I AM NOT FOR GZ OR ANTI-TM, BUT I WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH NO MATTER WHO FEELS AGGRIEVED BY IT.

    And my response is: oh please.

    Trayvon Martin was killed for no reason. He was not killed because he was a thug. He was not killed because he chose to attack a poor harmless fellow looking for an address. He was not killed because he and his kind are racist against white Hispanics or Hispanic whites or any combination thereof.

    His father was then asked to believe that he was killed because he had violently — no, VICIOUSLY — attacked a guy who happened to be carrying a loaded (with hollowpoint bullets!) gun, and so his own bad judgment and criminal behavior led to his death.

    His father did not believe that and when his mother was notified, she also did not believe that.

    The SPD then tried to get Fulton and Martin to go along with that explanation even though they did not believe it because, to them, it was inherently unbelievable, and because there were other things that made them mistrust the SPD’s version.

    Fulton and Martin looked for help and they got Attorney Crump to help them, and help them he did.

    When somebody is trying to victimize someone else (such as when the SPD was trying to victimize Fulton and Martin), they always resent helpers who try to assist and protect the victims. This is usually very effective because victims, without help, can usually be overcome. Crump stood his ground.

    As a result, there are campaigns all over the place to try to help the victimizers attack the helpers of the victims.

    Really, Unitron, this is how the thing looks to any truly objective outside observer. It is not too worrisome to me and I believe, from what I observed of Crump in the courtroom with West “interrogating” him, it’s not terribly worrisome to Crump either. He knows how to stand up for himself and for the Fulton-Martins too and that is what he has chosen to do, more power to him.

    So it will work out. But I like to call it what it is. And I like to state my own position:

    Officially, i have been in the past a helper and I have been in the past a victim. I am more effective as helper than I am at getting help when victimized, so be it. But I do know how to tease apart the strands of an assault on the helper’s credibility. And I want to give a single example of this, from my own past.

    I was speaking with a New Jersey Division of Youth and Family Services worker named Boniface Something-Or-Other (forgot his last name or I would use it here). He had a beautiful mellifluous voice and a lovely “Islands” accent. As a phone persona I quite liked him. I was speaking with him about a child of four who had bruises on his neck showing two thumb-prints in front, and several (not eight, but several) fingertip-shaped bruises in the back, indicating the kid had been choked. The kid SAID he had been choked. Photographs of his bruises the first day and the third day taken AT DYFS headquarters showed the bruises to be reddest on the first day and fading and getting yellow and purple-tinged on the third. DYFS was saying there was no evidence he had been physically abused. I was trying to get Boniface to change his “take” on this evidence. He admitted that the bruises were consistent with the story and that the story was credible. Finally I asked, “Then what exactly prevents you from saying there is evidence of physical abuse?” He answered, without apology, “You are nobody to us; you have no credibility with this agency!” I asked, “Why should my credibility affect the photographs, the bruises, or any evaluation of the report of abuse?” He said, “because you are telling me there was abuse but I don’t have to listen to you.”

    So now, if you will, understand how irrelevant Crump’s credibility is to the issue of whether or not GZ murdered Trayvon Martin. Do you think even if Crump DELIBERATELY LIED about DeeDee’s age, or if he coached her to lie about her age, that would change the bullet that exploded in Trayvon’s chest, or the depraved intent of GZ saying, “These assholes, they always get away,” or the hunt, or the threat, or the terror, or the shriek, or the begging for mercy caught on the 911 tape, or any of the rest of this evil deed and this filthy corrupt cover-up?

    How could it?

    I can find you any number of dishonest people, truly reprehensible people, horrible criminal wicked people, who believe that the Holocaust occurred. How many of such people do I need to find before we can state authoritatively that the lack of credibility on the part of people who believe it occurred effectively proves that it never did?

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      Malisha- I just love your comments. 🙂

    • fauxmccoy says:

      malisha – a couple of things — i believe in the simple truths you state above. i would like to point out that unitron is not a new poster, but rather one returning from hiatus. he posed a question and we ought never fear open and honest questions, for in examining them, we can arrive at some semblance of truth. i think you addressed that question very well.

      • Malisha says:

        Oh sorry, Unitron, I hadn’t remembered your name. Either way, I mean no personal ad hominem attack on you, but do want to stand by my take on how the “official doubters who are always objective” misuse certain peripheral and tangential bits of pseudo-data.

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        unitron is also not new to a few other fora where he is regularly accused of anti-Zimmerman bias for trying to be objective rather than toeing their party line.

        unitron

        (wordpress has my original screen name attached to a password I’ve long ago lost track of and an email address I long ago lost the use of when my ISP was bought out by another)

      • nemerinys says:

        Malisha – Just what was it that unitron wrote that provoked that response?

        He’s been commenting on this subject on various blogs since the beginning. I’d been missing him, and when he returned to another blog, I made a point of asking him to return to this blog as well.

        I’d particularly missed his ‘voice,’ alongside that of commenter whonoze, in that he keeps the conversation ‘grounded.’ He’ll ask questions of or make comments to both Trayvon and Zimmerman supporters.

        I hope he stays with us, and that his questions or comments will be understood as an endeavor to keep tthe conversation on an even keel.

        • cielo62 says:

          LOL! If you mean grounded in denial then by all means, let him blather.

          Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            A Zidiot is a Zidiot is a Zidiot no matter where they unload their preposterous condescending filth. I don’t even bother with what name they use anymore. Half of them are Pa Pa Z or Jr anyway.

    • gbrbsb says:

      Just read it again Malisha; you must be some kind of logical information-processing machine! Can´t you go work for the prosecution!

      • Malisha says:

        I would love to work for the prosecution, and I’d do it for free.

        But I can give them anything I do without actually working for them per se. As to the logical information-processing, I do want to thank you for that. It’s what I have been trying to hone my skills at for these last 60 years (the first five, I got a lot of the data all mixed up!) so I could figure things out. And what it took was trying to wade through a complex and chaotic mass of lies. Once I did that a few times (well before I ever heard of Trayvon Martin, by the way) I began to take pleasure in it. Perverted, ain’t it?

        I’m not in the least antagonistic toward Unitron, by the way, and I am going to respond to the idea that I was racist to use the term “wetback” in my comment about Shellie. (I’ve been too busy for my taste, all weekend, but now I have a minute to reflect.)

        I appreciate your words.

    • Jun says:

      Actually we know Trayvon did not start the dangerous turn of events or event the actual struggle, we have proof of that

  11. I have banned Ed Nelson as I believe it to be in the best interest of the community.

  12. Brown says:

    @Anyone.

    I don’t know how to Twitter, and I am trying to send an email to Trymaine Lee @ HP but it comes back as failure. If someone can Tweet to him that a current email or another email besides HP is needed I would be totally grateful.
    Thanks 🙂

  13. colin black says:

    Its a cowardly way to attack a few years ago in the UK there was a craze for so called happy slapping .Youngsters mainly but older people to would go up to complete strangers an punch them of gaurd tottally unprovoked an at random..An film results on phones to show there cohorts…Cowardly attack one oh one,,Never Never give the victim any indication attack is imminent..So they have no chance to run /defend themselfs..If a thug had plans on puttin the bangaz on a cracker an filming it or recording said beating..There ie no chance of a pre assault prep talk to get face to face an let you know of there presance an likely to be violent with confrontational rhetric..That the suspects problem .He is just to dumb to fathom out events happening in the real world ,As oppose the wee filmroll in his head..An his version of events about phantom trips to get a pointless adress an violent beatdown merchants whom give you a verbal warning of there presance.Are just not feasable an insulting to think you would be gullable enough to swallow this pile off verbal freestyle fantasy..This is how thease cowards attack in reality http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3V_6hNV7zIQ

    • gbrbsb says:

      I didn´t get felled like the one in the video but it happened to me as I walked home late one evening in central London. I was absorbed in thought so I didn´t feel or hear anything until I received an almighty slap on the backside and I saw a tall youth sprinting across the road and away. He was so quick I didn´t think it could have been him except that on looking around there was absolutely nothing else that could have done it!

  14. colin black says:

    Malisha,,,, Unitron, “Just because Zimmerman remembers him suddenly appearing with ninja-like stealth and the element of surprise, that doesn’t guarantee that his memory is accurate.”…The premise of gz tale is that Trayvon delibrately set out to confront an attack him…Hideing in the bushes?/ or emergineing from the dark.Where you conseal an hide your self from the person you intend to attack.So you go to all this trouble to hide an have stealth supprise on your side as you attack your prey from behind…But wait a minute Id better give this guy a heads up That Im here by talking to him an asking what his Frackin problem is hommie???….Its street ettiquete you know even thugs have rules….

    • gbrbsb says:

      Well said Colin. IMO Trayvon didn´t hide. Why would he when, as professor said in an earlier post, he had successfully eluded GZ who confirms it on the NEN and DD confirms it too. So when Trayvon turned down the dog walk, or wherever he turned as it may be GZ´s not telling the truth on this part either except that we absolutely know that he disappeared from GZ´s view before he had even exited his car, he had no way of imagining GZ was going to follow in hot pursuit which is why he told DD he had lost him. No, I don´t believe GZ hid, merely chilled out in the shadows chatting to his girl until GZ suddenly appeared again and he asked him “why you following me”. I mean, just as you say if Trayvon had wanted to jump him why would he warn him… that is ridiculous. As ridiculous as it is for MOM to spread the rumour Trayvon had MM training. What stupidity is that… had Trayvon had MM training and as according to GZ Trayvon is the is vicious thug who attacked him out of the blue with no provocation, well GZ would have looked a lot lot bloodier, blacker and bluer than he did.

      • Rachael says:

        IF Trayvon did hide, it was, IMO, to get away from GZ. IF he hid and then came out, it was, IMO, because he felt safe to do so, thinking GZ was gone. Unfortunately, GZ was not and, IMO, initiated a confrontation.

        • gbrbsb says:

          I agree Rachael, if Trayvon did hide, but my workings bring me to conclude he didn´t, at least not in the strict sense. Firstly because as professor said “he had successfully eluded GZ” once he turned the corner, and if he did hide then he must have known GZ had exited his car and was chasing him up the cut through which doesn´t really tally with telling DD that he lost the creepy guy. On the other hand the discussion I was commenting was was about whether Trayvon hid in the bushes, which IMO considering the dark rainy night, the layout, porches and the walkway between every 2 or 3 houses etc. he didn´t as had he wanted to hide he had plenty of better and easier places than to try to crouch below and behind the really low bushes up close to the houses as well as risking getting scratched and making a noise. No, IMO once Trayvon “skipped” round the corner, upon which GZ left his truck, his inexperience led him to think he had lost GZ… like kids playing hide n´seek thinking that covering their eyes makes them invisible! I am sure he did keep a low profile, standing near walls or away from the light, etc., but that he went back to casually chatting to DD until suddenly GZ was there again which is when DD heard him ask, “why you following me”.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I wonder how high the bushes are at GZ’s townhouse. Maybe, they are higher than in back of the townhouses at the crime scene.
        .
        As I remember, when he actually did the video reenactment, he made no mention of the bushes. Was that because the bushes at the crime scene were shorter than those at his townhouse?

        • jm says:

          It seems like it would be hard for a tall lanky kid like Trayvon to hide behind the bushes that I saw in the reenactment.

        • gbrbsb says:

          @You all have thoughtful… “I wonder how high the bushes are at GZ’s townhouse.”

          Clever question… it was actually funny when during the re-enactment Serino looked towards the mini golf type hedge/bushes tight up against the wall… I swear he looked perplexed when he said something like “those bushes”! Maybe those near GZ´s house can be seen on Bing or Google maps.

        • gbrbsb says:

          Well, well, well… you might have discovered why GZ said Trayvon had jumped out from the “bushes”. Just checked with Google Earth (better than Gmaps as you can rotate it on its axis) and:

          1. There are a lot more bushes around the area of GZ´s house.

          But… even more importantly,

          2. There is a similar “dog walk” between the houses on TTL and those on Long Oak Way just in front of where GZ lived and lo and behold at the entrance that would correspond to the turn into the dog walk, or the “T” as we call it for the other, there is a line of what appears to be thick bushes, hedging or large shrubbery.

          What a liar he is! (I know we knew that but just can´t get my head around how much of a liar and how downright stupid he is!)

          • Brown says:

            Try Bing maps they have Birds eye view thats better!

          • gbrbsb says:

            Thanks Brown, but tried both GoogleMaps and BIng but the best for seeing the bushes is GoogleEarth which allows you to rotate the map and the path that leads to the other dog walk in front of GZ´s house is lined with thick vegetation. Whatya wanna bet that when making up his story about Trayvon jumping out of bushes he just presumed there were bushes the same as the one near him! Hahahaha… what a zidiot!!!

          • gbrbsb says:

            Brown… I´m grinning from ear to ear too!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Stand Your Ground Petition: 13 http://wh.gov/52B2

            Pro Z petition: 629 (search for it)

            TM petition: 765 http://wh.gov/IXcy

            No one seems to be bothered in the SYG law, by appearance, even though it is hugely unpopular, and has the potential to turn the country into a nation of shut ins.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            That shows that, when he was out there that night, his focus was singular. Such that he simply assumed that the RATL had the same vegetation everywhere in it, and that he constructs lies “on the fly” as needed.

            The SP needs to depose him with a psychologist outside the room, but taking the lead. Because he’s prone to create lies “on the fly” a psychologist will be able to force him to box himself in (as if he hasn’t already done so) by suggesting questions GZ will want to answer, by creating another lie. Then ask the same questions, but this time in a way that GZ won’t want to answer, causing him to say he forgot his own claimed defense.

            “I forgot I had my gun”, is nonsense, but, he could have said that he forgot his own name, and it would have to be accepted, because people can do that, no matter how illogical it seems. But, if in the course of questioning him about other parts of his story, you suddenly ask, “Where was your gun when you ___________” After a while he’ll catch on to what’s going on, and that’s when you end the interview abruptly. Leaving him to stew over what he might have said that he can’t remember. Of course, if he does remember that he gave an incriminating answer, he’s going to go crazy looking for a chance to answer. Don’t give him a context to do it.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I just returned. Good to see that you feel this could explain George’s bush story.

    • Malisha says:

      But thugs have THUG rules, Colin B. They aren’t allowed to say stuff like, “What the EFF’s your PROBLEM, homie?” That brings public ridicule down upon all good thugs. They have to say stuff like: “Man, your puerile attempt to stalk and confront a decent American makes me need to credibly assure you that you are going to die tonight.” 👿

      • gblock says:

        If Trayvon was going to hide and then jump GZ, why didn’t he get himself a baseball bat or other weapon? Or is that also against the rules of thugdom?

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          If he was planning to assault GZ, he’d have waited at the first corner east of the first row of buildings, to catch George as he came near that point. But, alas, he couldn’t do that, because he could not know that GZ would get out of his truck to follow him.

          TM had a good lead, but on that quiet night in that area, is strongly suspect that he could hear GZ’s truck door slam. If so, that would prompt him to go into hiding. He had to be tired from his long brisk walk to the store and back. He, obviously, did not see GZ walking over to RVC, so GZ probably took another route to cut TM off from the rear gate, (and that’s only if he really did not know where TM was staying. Since TM had been to RATL many times before and played with other kids there, it’s likely that he was known, either to GZ or one of his NW cohorts), in any event TM waits in hiding for a minute or two, and doesn’t see GZ following, he assumes he’s lost him. Then GZ reappears, probably by coming through a cut through, and a chase begins with TM running back north.

          He gets caught before he can get very far because he’s tired and out of breath. Untrained kids, when they’re scared, expend their energy too quickly to be very effective at escape, even with their speed advantage. While an adult would expend his energy more carefully, letting him last longer. Notice that TM’s body is north of where he loses his phone. TM has carried the 711 bag, almost all the way home. I note that these bags have so many uses, it’s unlikely he’d just throw it away at that point, since he probably had something in mind to do with it at home like packing or wrapping.

          Tchoupi’s work shows there’s just about enough wind to carry the empty bag into an area where the wind voids out, like up against a building, under a bush etc..

          In any event, GZ’s stated agreement not to follow, means he should never be south of the T, let alone 50 or so feet south too boot.

      • Malisha says:

        At the very least, if Trayvon was going to hide and then leap out to try to kill Fogen, he would have opened up his iced tea so that as he sprang out at Fogen he could throw cold tea in his eyes to make him stall and be blinded for a minute so Trayvon could then get the jump on him and really do him in. Let’s not presume that Trayvon was even one percent as stupid as the Outhousers want to believe all Black people are.

  15. Jun says:

    http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2012/901.25

    Turns out that Corey was allowed to arrest Shellie, under fresh pursuit

    • Xena says:

      Turns out that Corey was allowed to arrest Shellie, under fresh pursuit

      That applies to arresting officers, but nevertheless, the Information charging ShelLIE was signed appropriately by special appointment to that circuit. Also, I suspect that since the alleged crime was committed in that circuit in a case where Corey is appointed, that the court has jurisdiction.

      I would like to see the filed motion to see what statute(s) ShelLIE’s attorney cited. As it is, I’ve only read news’ articles reporting the filing and reason.

    • Xena says:

      I checked the docket for ShelLIE’s case. The attorney filed a motion to dismiss of in the alternative a Quo Warranto. I’ve heard of that in civil cases challenging whether an official was elected to office, but never in a criminal proceeding. Maybe the Professor can address this.

      WHAT IS MORE INTERESTING however, is a dated 10/31/2012 “Def Mail returned unclaimed” which is a Notice to Appear. Seems as though ShelLIE does not reside at the safe house and no one there is accepting her mail. I suppose we shall see next week whether she appears in court.

      • cielo62 says:

        Is there any more info to the rumor that Shellie and Voldemort are no longer together?

        Sent from my iPod

        • Xena says:

          Is there any more info to the rumor that Shellie and Voldemort are no longer together?

          Not that I know of. Several here are of the impression that they are no longer together. The docket entry sounds as though the mail was sent Certified and no one was home to sign for it, neither claimed it at the post office. Maybe ShelLIE isn’t communicating with her attorney properly either.

          • jm says:

            Xena says: The docket entry sounds as though the mail was sent Certified and no one was home to sign for it, neither claimed it at the post office. Maybe ShelLIE isn’t communicating with her attorney properly either

            Sounds like the Zimmermans are out and about and are dodging the law.

            Don’t mean to pile on to ShelLIE, but she looks as if her mental state in her mug shot is about the same as Chorge’s has been in his last 2 appearances in court. Maybe they are both heavily medicated and to a degree not normally responsive. Wonder if her drugs came from her mother’s stash or if they are legally prescribed.

            Where is RZ Jr when the medicated Zimmerman’s need him? 🙂

          • Xena says:

            Wonder if her drugs came from her mother’s stash or if they are legally prescribed.

            In the Credit Union statements are several small payments to a clinic. It is not Altamonte where GZ was seen. IIRC, GZ was in jail when the debit card was used for those clinic payments. I figured it was for prescriptions at a rate applicable to their insurance co-pays. The payments were about 2 weeks apart of each other.

      • Malisha says:

        If she flew the coop, it’s a toss-up whether she was trying to escape Corey or Cheorgey. In either case, her choreography must be off, unless she’s a wet-back and illegally got into Mexico. In which case I hope she took her cell phone.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          You’re calling someone a wetback but Zimmerman’s the racist?

          unitron

          • jm says:

            onlyiamunitron says: “You’re calling someone a wetback but Zimmerman’s the racist?:

            Why don’t you stick to defending Zimmerman, the person accused of second degree murder who PROFILED a black teen, called him an azzhole and an effing punk, who then FOLLOWED him, confronted him and shot him through the heart at a very close range after he took the time to AIM his gun after he spoke to a witness telling him it was not necessary to call the 911 because they were already called. That’s cold blooded murder.

            Why don’t you focus on GZ instead of random things from a poster who has not killed anyone.

            Is this the best you can do to defend GZ? Attack posters in cyberspace for their choice of words?

          • racerrodig says:

            Anyone who signs his posts is an asshole. He signs everyone “unitron” as if he’s so much better or smarter than others. The bottom line is he is so transparent it’s a laugh, yet he thinks he fooled someone. Nuff Said. His prose is all to familiar.

          • Xena says:

            You replied to Malisha:

            You’re calling someone a wetback but Zimmerman’s the racist?

            At least she did not refer to ShelLIE in the plural. GZ referred to Trayvon in the plural; “These assholes, they always get away.” “Funking punks.”

            GZ lumped one person into a group that he already judged as assholes and punks.

          • Sure sounded to me and a lot of others that he said, “coons” and not “punks.”

            Needless to say, “coons” is not a race-neutral word.

          • Xena says:

            Sure sounded to me and a lot of others that he said, “coons” and not “punks.”

            Oh, I agree. I hear “coons” or “poons” but take the position of the prosecution that he said “punks.” By referring to Trayvon in the plural, GZ was certainly profiling him as a group; as in race.

          • jm says:

            There is no doubt in my mind Chorge was profiling.

            I don’t care what RZ Jr says about the family not being racist. I get what Chorge’s cousin said, that the Zimmerman’s accept black people who act white, because I know a lot of people like that. Unfortunately it looks like Trayvon did not act white enough (“skipping” (?!) in a hoodie) so he was profiled by Chorge. as an azzhole and a punk/coon/goon who was up to no good and on drugs. That is a racist conclusion made by CHorge no matter how RZ, Jr spins Chorge is not a racist.

          • Xena says:

            There is no doubt in my mind Chorge was profiling.

            Absolutely!

            I don’t care what RZ Jr says about the family not being racist.

            It seems to me that if I am going to convince others of not being racist, I would start by addressing organizations with goals for unity and equality. Papa Zim already criticized the NAACP on his and Glady’s website. Talking to bigoted racists about not being racist is like telling the Italian Mafia that you’re not a gangster.

      • Jun says:

        Cheorge and Shellie cant be mexicans because they both despise them LMAO

        • cielo62 says:

          Shellie is quite caucasianly white. No doubt due to mom’s brainwashing effort that its better to marry white to improve your station.

          Still she COULD cross into Mexico illegally via the river, hence the term wetback. We know GZ had passports to spare but somehow I doubt she even had one.

          Sent from my iPod

      • JUN says:

        whether someone here is a racist or not, it still doesnt change the fact that Ziimernuts is a racist

        Jun LOL

  16. Jun says:

    What efforts will be made for Deedee during deposition?

    Shelly and the Zimmernuts were allowed to testify by phone and I feel surely that Deedee should be protected until trial and I feel she should be allowed to be deposed by phone, just as it was afforded to the defense at the first bond hearing

    Cant really trust the Zimmernuts and there is massive amounts of proof that they are going after her, in that they have mistaking cyber stalked and harassed to intimidate people who they believe was her

    And when they have no proof, they make up things like she is 18 when they have no proof to support such an accusation

    She needs to be protected from those rabid psychos

  17. Xena says:

    As a reminder. Beginning at about 4:55 of the following video is when West approached the court about clarification regarding the DeeDee interview conducted by attorney Crump. The video was provided by Trent Sawyer and contains some commentary from him.

    • Jun says:

      The guy’s an idiot

      Like Jesus Christ, Lord Have Mercy

      Fine, Crump’s tape cant go in, but Bernie’s tape sure can LMAO

      • Xena says:

        I hope that the State will inform Judge Nelson that they interviewed witness 8, the defense has admitted that they have the tape of that interview and there is nothing wrong with the sound.

      • racerrodig says:

        They’ll never get it………….Never. Just like the Ping Logs would bust this baby WIIIIIIde Open. How did that work out.

        • cielo62 says:

          Ah, the Ping Logs! Sounds like a cheesy Christmas present!

          Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            Now if the Zidiots said Cheese Logs I may think it would bust the case wide open. See, the way I look at it is Fogen would eat all the Cheese Logs then go on the hunt. Easy………Columbo has nothing on me.

          • cielo62 says:

            Racerridrig- no indeed! Columbo can’t hold a candle to you! LOL!

            Sent from my iPod

        • jm says:

          Did they get their ping logs?

          • racerrodig says:

            Not that I know of….and that was months ago !!

          • cielo62 says:

            Jm- I never heard that they had. Wasn’t it something about local towers being too close together for the pings to be accurately measured?

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            It was something stupid. One of the Racist’s on HP and then at the ConOutHouse made a huge deal about this. Notice the actual “Defense” and the prosecution did not.

            I argued this with them from Sept to about 3 weeks ago and they finally died out. Now when someone brings it up to slap them in the face they disappear for a day or so so as not to have to answer.
            Typical Zidiots !!

          • jm says:

            What were the pings supposed to prove?

          • cielo62 says:

            I think they were supposed to prove that Trayvon was lying in ambush near the bushes. Or that he had actually gone home and circled back. Or maybe that the phone that was found is not really Trayvon’s. Y’know? I’m not sure WHAT it was supposed to prove! But it WAS going to blast the case wide open!

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            That’s exactly right !! Notice where that went ?? Right down the drain.

          • racerrodig says:

            They thought the logs would pinpoint the exact location of Trayvon that showed he was the attacker.

          • jm says:

            I just went over to the squirrel treehouse and the latest is that there are 2 actresses playing Dee-Dee, one 16 and the other 18, I guess hired by Crump. Why he would hire actresses is beyond my understanding.

            Honestly how do they come up with this stuff? Instead of recognizing Chorge profiled, followed and murdered Trayvon Martin as heard clearly on NEN and 911 calls, they are focused on Crump and other prominent black people who have supported the Martin family and calling them liars. They are also angry at the media for not correcting Dee-Dee’s age once they learned she was 18.

            There sure are a lot of “Christian” racists over at the squirrel hangout with the inability to address Chorge’s role in killing Trayvon Martin but would rather demonize everyone but Chorge & family.

            I still want to know what was in it for Crump to say Dee-Dee was 16 rather than 18. What would his motive be to “lie” about her age? Maybe he misunderstood her?

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @ jm

            do we even have proof that DD is 18? all i have seen is rumors (including west’s recent motion). also, it’s important to remember that we are close to the one year mark since the shooting and everyone but trayvon is a year older. if you have any links to a credible news source stating that she is 18, i’d like to take a look. please note though that i consider this to be of little significance to her testimony.

          • racerrodig says:

            There are racist Christians everywhere as we know all to well. As Lewis Black would say…….”They’re Deeee – Luuuu – sion – aaaaal”
            when referring to the Zidiots. Ping Logs, 2 Dee Dee’s…what next ?

            Trayvon shot himself because there is a trigger DNA issue?

          • Xena says:

            There are racist Christians everywhere as we know all to well.

            Which is why I refer to myself as spiritual. Every sovereign citizen I met when I worked in the courthouse claimed to be “true” Christians, yet they did harmful, vindictive things that got them arrested and justified their actions on “common law.”

          • racerrodig says:

            Well I’m a Christian, and a human being making me an “Imperfect Christian” and I freely admit that.

      • Jun says:

        Xena – I agree with Crump and Bernie and I wouldnt turn over the original either to the defense. If they want to listen to Crump’s tape, they can depo him and listen str8 off his recording device in court. Look at the madness the defense caused with their “Deedee” theories. Lots of black girls named Deedee were repeatedly harassed and cyber stalked and threatened, just because they believed they were Witness 8.

        What the bloodclot hell is a Ping Log and what is supposed to prove? Its from Zidiots so I need a good laugh LMAO

        • racerrodig says:

          Ping Logs are records that are intermittent from the cell towers that give a “GPS” style location of a phone. The Zidiots claimed that the Ping Logs would prove Trayvon was hiding in the bushes or something and lying in wait. The problems are many. They logs are only kept for a few days and are not even close to being accurate enough to make that determination.

          AND they would have the Ping Logs showing Fogen was on the hunt. I slapped the living shit out of newbee and LJP on the Racist Patrol on HP over that.

          They actually had worked themselves into a huge lather over Ping Logs when someone said what they were as a an innocent comment.

          Typical Zidiot Behavior.

      • Jun says:

        It is as pathetic as digging into the kindergarten records to prove self defense LMAO

      • Rachael says:

        They are idiots. A ping is a signal to the nearest local tower. It would tell nothing more than they were in the vicinity of that tower. To find anything more, they would have to track the GPS, assuming the GPS was on. But a ping will not locate anything as precise as say a bush – just an area relative to the tower so one would know where to look. Again, if they were looking for someone, pinged the tower so they knew where they were, they could follow by GPS, but that would be the only way to pinpoint – and it is not something that can be done after the fact.

        But anyway, here is some info in pings.

        http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2007/12/cells-tracking.html

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Petitions update:

      Stand your ground: 13 http://wh.gov/52B2

      Pro Z : 613 (hunt for it)

      TM petition: 750 http://wh.gov/IXcy

    • groans says:

      Wow – thanks for the video, Xena and Trent.

      She wouldn’t let him re-argue the decided matter, declares Mr. Crump a “court witness” for him, and tells him to go do discovery.

      He doesn’t do the discovery (i.e., Crump’s deposition), and is now asking her for an order to compel the decided matter?

      That’s too unreal. Am I missing something here?

      • Xena says:

        That’s too unreal. Am I missing something here?

        You’re not missing anything. Now, with West saying they received the recording but are not satisfied with it and want attorney Crump’s personal recorder, I suspect that Judge Nelson will have some questions. Recorders that I have use micro-tapes. As long as someone has a micro tape recorder/player, they can play what I record.

  18. Malisha says:

    Unitron, “Just because Zimmerman remembers him suddenly appearing with ninja-like stealth and the element of surprise, that doesn’t guarantee that his memory is accurate.”

    What Zimmerman “remembers” has nothing to do with the memory of actual events that took place in the world. In fact, he “remembers” Trayvon Martin appearing with ninja-like stealth as he “emerged from the darkness” [Cheorge’s own words on his witness statement that night] because he is remembering his STORY, the story he first told Singleton and then had to repeat.

    He remembers his story each time he tells it; however, he has to adjust little parts of it as he finds out more and more about what evidence has been collected that will “give the lie” to the lies he is giving. His memory is only “faulty” in that he cannot remember which parts of the story are unchangeable. That’s why Singleton caught herself saying, “and then you want to pretend…” but then corrected herself. She had it right the first time, but obviously, with the police directives coming down from her superior officers telling her that Cheorge should not be charged, SHE had to pretend not to be pretending. And SHE had to pretend she didn’t realize Cheorge was obviously pretending. A dirty little deal all the way around. And they want us to pretend we do not know that!

    • Jun says:

      Another proof of action is that Cheorge is intimate in detail of his imagined attack

      if you watch MMA fighting, when someone gets hit that many times in the head, and are going out, they always wake up from the mat not remembering anything that happened

      This is yet another point to liar liar pants of fire Cheorge

      We all know he is purposely lying, because he doesnt want to go to prison so he dreamed up his story

      He only says I dont know because he knows he has been caught in his lie

      But if he truly wants to stay at that, him not remembering doesnt change the events of that night

      If you drive drunk and kill a person, and you dont remember, you still get charged and go to prison for it

      So what makes this any different is a tale only the Zimmernuts can conjure up and the tales will still rile us with ridiculousness as we easily point out the lies and falsehoods

      I’m glad this trial is so public so any funny business will be seen worldwide and they will be called out on it

  19. onlyiamunitron says:

    There doesn’t seem to be a way to reply directly to gbrbsb, so I’ll just have to hope they see this.

    When first setting up Thunderbird or some other email client, look in the options and preferences and such for something worded similarly to “leave emails on server”.

    That way, they (or to be picky about it, copies of them) will be downloaded into the email client’s inbox, but not deleted from the server.

    You’ll have to use the provider’s webmail interface to manually delete them from the server if you want them deleted from there.

    emails you send out may only wind up saved (that is, a copy made) in the client’s sent folder or in the sent folder accessible via the webmail interface, depending on from where you send them, but quite possibly only from whichever one from which you send them, but not both.

    unitron

  20. colin black says:

    William Walton says:

    December 1, 2012 at 6:57 pm

    It goes back to my original statement from a physics concept that both were standing. Once shot, Zimmerman would have fallen on Trevon and therefore, would have been on top of him. Also go back and look at blogs which state that Zimmerman had grass in the toes of his boots/shoes. This would indicate that they were standing and Zimmerman fired the shot. With the force of gravity and the momentum of Trevon’s falling body, Zimmerman would be pulled toward him and thus, Zimmerman’s boots/shoes would show that evidence.
    Its possable both were upright but not standing for the shot to enter through an through .No deviation imagine both men crouched as gz pulls Trayvon towards him to attempt to restrain an detain.Trayvon resisting pulls away he also is crouched relitive to his attacker to try an get leverage through space an use your weight /momentum to escape clutches.An thats exactly what gz has a cluched /clenched fist of both Trayvons hoodie but also the loose T shirt underneath .With a wee twist almost impossable for Trayvon to escape .As they are both crouched in stance relitve to each other in a tug of war over the hoodie t shirt .The suspect/accused /murderer/………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….The killer then levels his weapon takeing aim prolly couple of inches to his left when fireing to avoid shooting his left hand that had the death grip on his two upper garments.An thats why as LMMPappa showed the other day the through an through kill shot corraletes perfectly with gz height an Trayvons height if he held his arm out straight an fired the bullet enters exactly where it does as shown by the trajectory discovered duering the post mortem.So the straight through kill shot would still be level as both were in a similar stance one pulling away attempting desprate to escape screaming for mercy begging for your life.The other got a fist like a limpit dragging you towards at stalemate untill you levell aim an fire the gun with hollow point bullets into a terrified childs chest.???..Dumb dumb move on your part sinnerman,,,You thought you could silance the only witness an tell your tale of dark stormy nights rife with roaming black thugs terrorising the retreat.An when to your discomfort you hears Trayvons pleas an screams of terror were caught on tape via 911 callers …You decided to steal his voice like whats the big deal you had already stolen his life…So as you lie about as convinceingly as Donald Trumps Syrup Of Figg….wig….So Gods Plan does seem to be moveing along splendidly because although Trayvon died needless at the hands of a derranged wannabe rent a robo cop..He has a voice he did talk to us.Even with the half assed alleged investigation by the S P D…Trayvon still showed us with his body an position in death that the suspect was lieing.Trayvon speaks to us via his childhood sweet heart whom he spoke to 120 or so seconds that Trayvon had to live .As he asked an adult whom had been following him via a vech ic kill…An on foot into the darkness behind your Fathers home were you thought it safe to linger an finnish your talk with your girlfreind…He can speak Trayvon can an does speak to us even in death.An unlike a certain someone the deads words always remain constant.And the dead dont lie..They may lay in a grave..Never do they lie from the grave..

    • infuriating this asshole put his filthy hands on Trayvon! HOW DARE HE TOUCH SOMEONE ELSES KID!!!! I WOULD PAY TO BE A FLY ON THE WALL THE FIRST NIGHT GZ SPENDS IN GEN POP!

      [The rest of your comment about GZ is too graphic, Shannon]

      • i’m sorry if i offended anyone. please don’t be mad. i’m not usually such an angry person. this gz is just the most repugnant thing i’ve ever seen! i hate his guts!!!!!!!!!!!!!
        Professor i’m sorry, i understand if you want to delete. i’ll control myself better! sorry.

        no, i’m not drinking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      • cielo62 says:

        Dang, I don’t want to be in YOUR sh*t list!

        Sent from my iPod

      • Malisha says:

        It’s OK, dear shannon, fantasies like this have saved many a sore person on many a hard night. In fact, I don’t believe you would really put up with this kind of abuse being heaped upon a prisoner, and I think you would uphold the Eighth Amendment to the US Constitution, but Fogen’s blame-the-victim and heap-further-abuse-upon-the-innocent activities have inflamed your sense of justice and righteousness beyond tolerance.

        You will be OK. We will be OK. Peace.

        • jm says:

          Have faith in karma and Chorge will get what he deserves. In the end, I believe Chorge will be scared to death because he is ultimately a coward/weasel without his gun.

          Thinking about Chorge killing Trayvon, I would have more pity for Chorge if he had not lied continuously, had some remorse for what turned out to be the killing of a kid who had just turned 17 and who had no record of violence, no weapon and was a guest of a resident in the neighborhood, had not started his begging website and was not selling his autograph to raise money for he and ShelLIE to live on.

          Because of Chorge’s history at this point, I don’t mind what happens to him as far as a violent end.

      • eggnog is gross! not that i’ve ever tried it (it looks too gross) but i can’t imagine mixing perfectly good liquor with raw eggs and milk!
        but it could be a hearty breakfast for some who wanna get an early start on spring break!

      • Oh Malisha, thank you for having a better opinion of me than i have of myself.
        but it still sounds like a good idea and it couldn’t happen to a more deserving POS 🙂

      • Xena says:

        I’d take enormous pleasure watching him get beaten and gang raped …

        Not raped. Prisoners who have been “in the life” probably think that GZ is spoiled in that area already. If he experimented with his girl cousin, he probably experimented with his gay brother too. In prison, GZ has “pretty lips” if you get my drift.

      • Yeah i knew it went a lil overboard sorry.. it was right after i read colin’s comment above.

        racerrodig says:

        December 2, 2012 at 3:30 pm

        God I love you guys…and gals!

        @racer, i feel the same way!! lol we are lucky to have each other here!!

    • groans says:

      Wow. Thank you.

      This won’t stop ringing in my ears:

      “An when to your discomfort you hears Trayvons pleas an screams of terror were caught on tape via 911 callers …You decided to steal his voice like whats the big deal you had already stolen his life.”

    • OK, how does gz hold Trayvon’s shirt AND twist his arm??? this has to reconcile with the ballistics!
      any idea?

      also, is there a report that interprets the ballistics? or will that happen at trial? Like from a gun shot wound analyst or whatever they’re called??

      • Yes, there will be expert testimony from the Assistant Medical Examiner who performed the autopsy and a ballistics expert.

      • and are the ballistics expert going to show exactly the killer and Trayvon’s respective positions at the time of the shot? like that? and does anyone know if there are any written reports with this description out there already?
        because then we can see what the states theory is about the shot and how it happened and we wouldn’t have to speculate as to whether gz was on top or bottom…

        • Xena says:

          because then we can see what the states theory is about the shot and how it happened and we wouldn’t have to speculate as to whether gz was on top or bottom…

          The State has something else to establish that GZ was not pinned down by Trayvon; i.e., the debris in Trayvon’s clothes, and lack of debris in GZ’s clothes.

          This is something I noticed in the case of John Orr during his immunity hearing. Orr claimed that he was pinned to the ground and like GZ, that his head was being bashed on the concrete. The State argued that the debris on Orr did not substantiate that he was “pinned down.” I suppose that anyone can get debris on their clothes, but alleging they were “pinned” results in debris found in a certain manner, or depth than it does when simply being on your back with no one PINNING you down.

          The State does not have to prove that GZ was never on his back, only that he was not pinned on his back. If they argue like they did in Orr’s case, GZ will be denied immunity.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Analysis of the gunshot wound will be “work product” and so it won’t appear in discovery.

        • OK, that’s what i was goin for, i couldn’t explain what i meant. but you understood my gibberish, thanks lonnie

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            When I first came on the internet, just when bbl’s were going out and we were talking about the 14,400 baud barrier (that’s bits per second, not bytes, so you have to divide that by 8 to get the bits/sec.), that we were being told was the top speed for internet traffic. Bandwidth was so precious, we had to understand what the other person was saying. at 1440 baud this board would have been impossible, taking days to load. That’s the speed at which we were using the Air Mosaic browser lol, google it, it should make interesting reading. We had Windows 3.1 and configuration files to deal with among other things.

            Today, unfortunately, while I can understand most of what people are saying despite typo’s dropped words and even munged and mangled expressions. I find that I am required to be extremely fastidious about what I write, or fail to be understood.

            Write something that insults me, but it makes no sense that you would do that in the conversation we’re having, I immediately sense that you mean something other than what I’m reading. If I can’t figure out what you meant, then I ask. It was all about the need for speed back then, so we made up for errors using reading comprehension and context evaluation.

            In any event, anything that amounts to the work product of the attorney’s is not discoverable. Which is why we can’t really know where this case is. We have a lot of the raw materials, but we can’t know how they are treating it, because much of what they’re working on, is held in related materials or work product of other actors they’ve enlisted. So their work lines are off our scopes.

            If, for instance, they feel that the wounds and blood on GZ’s head are suspicious, by the analysis of their professionals, they’ll probably go to work on Shellie as the best suspect for helping create them. If she testifies positively for this, then they’ll have to keep her away from GZ. My guess is, if she has anything incriminating of GZ, it won’t take much for them to get her to crack.

            So we wait!

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      What does “follow” mean?

      • gbrbsb says:

        I also wanted to know that and Lonnie Star & Xena explain that in the post: Trayvon Martin’s Killer Trolls for More Dollars by Offering to Sell his Signed Autograph… a couple of posts back otherwise sure Lonnie will answer you direct.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          It’s a quick way to follow new threads when you haven’t a comment to post yet. write follow, then check the “notify me of follow up comments via email, and you’re done. Otherwise there’s a row of hoops you’ve got to jump through to do the same thing.

          • gbrbsb says:

            I´m on the job Lonnie after your previous advice. I Downloaded thunderbird today but as I´ve never used email programs I am going to tread slowly till I suss it out… well I did try one years ago but when it started to download all my emails and delete them from yahoo I cancelled scared I was going to lose it all. I have been meaning to try again cos my spam box is something ghastly… I was looking for a virgin flight one day and my bad spelling wrote Virgen instead and I have been overwhelmed ever since by emails about viagra, enlargements, Canadian pharmacies, and god knows why, fake rolex watches. Grrrrrrrrr

      • gbrbsb says:

        Sorry, meant to also say I would explain but I´m still trying to get my own head around it and how to get comments via email so I don´t have to keep scrolling up and down and of course missing some… but without swamping my email!

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          When you first post you’ll be offered a chance to use your facebook account or create a new one. After you write a comment, such as “follow” you’ll see the “notify me… by email” check box, check it before you click the post button.

          Now, you’ll get your inbox swamped with blog post. So you do this.
          in your mail client, go up to “file” and click “new folder”, name it Fred/Blog. Next, go to Help and search for “create filters”. There you’ll spend a few minutes learning to create a “filter” that will send all downloaded mail from this blog to the Fred/Blog folder. Once done your inbox will remain pristine. When you have time you visit your blog folder. Copy and save this so that next time some one asks you can be the guru.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        gbrbsb…yeah…Do you think that “follow” just means that they have been here and read the comments without commenting on the topic?

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        gbrbsb– do you have any ideas on what ChrisNY-Laurie and I have been discussing above?

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Wow…nifty. Thanks Lonnie!

      • Malisha says:

        What does “Follow” mean?

        Answer #1, for bloggers: It means you will get notices of comments in your e-mail in-box.

        Answer #2, for Serino: It means you get out of the vehicle to pursue the suspect on foot because you’re the good guy.

        Answer #3, for Fogen: It means “going in the same direction as.”

        Answer #4, for Robert Jr.: It means that no decent American should ever have to be subjected to the unwarranted accusation that he was following an African American simply because of racism; it means that our forefathers founded this country so that this would not happen in derogation of the rights of citizens and the meaning of the Constitution; it means that the credibility of decent Americans and their right to live where they want and not have to give away blankets to prove their value and the admiration of the community is befrundelated above all other methodical restitutions beneath our forspacious skies; it means that supernatturated annilexations although heaped upon the gesticular (this does not apply to mammals in the normal course) has been routinely overtaken and we need to step up to the plate and make it clear we will not prendifoul! Thank you.

      • gbrbsb says:

        @You all have etc. etc.

        Just found your two questions to me. I thought “follow” was doing more than just saying “been here, read it” but I wasn´t sure what it was doing.

        I hadn´t read all the comments between you and ChrisNY-Laurie until just now when I went back to look for them… that is why I must get my email sorted so I can receive comments and replies as they come in because scrolling up and down I miss tons!

        Anyway, just read all the missed posts and the scenarios are more or less in line with what I envisage happened but am unable to describe in such a detailed and gripping way. And then I do have a few caveats;

        I don´t think Trayvon hid behind any bushes not just because I think they are too small and close nor because with the darkness, screens, cut throughs, etc. he had better places to hide, I just don´t think he did hide as he didn´t know GZ was following him, so I think he just chilled in the shadows talking with his girl until the creep reappeared behind him which bought him to ask “why you following me?” I am convinced GZ grabbed Trayvon and subjected him to an arm and/or wrist lock to try to force him to disclose accomplices which is why Trayvon screams desperately, “I don´t know em” (I am convinced I hear this), as I think GZ mistook Trayvon for one of the burglars that got away a few weeks prior. I believe the car key is important but not sure why because while on the NEN I hear GZ say under his breath, as if to someone else, “the keys are in my truck” and although I am sure GZ did the shooting on his own my hunch is MO was involved somehow, perhaps trying to cut Trayvon off at the back gate by car while GZ followed him up the cut through.

      • gblock says:

        I think it is quite possible that, in a dark area, Creepy Guy couldn’t see Trayvon when he didn’t know where to look for him, without Trayvon purposely hiding from him.

      • Rachael says:

        OMG Malisha, this is the funniest thing I have ever read. I can’t tell you when I have laughed so hard!!!

        Okay, you started off funny enough to begin with. But when I got to:

        ” means that the credibility of decent Americans and their right to live where they want and not have to give away blankets to prove their value…”

        I busted out laughing so loud I scared my dog. And everything after that just had me in a fit of laughter to where I thought I couldn’t breathe.

        That is just too much. LOL

  21. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    From Singleton interview (2-26-2012)

    Zimmerman: …… then he still kept trying to hit my head against the pavement, or, I don’t know if there was a sign or what it was…

    George points out the direction (“he says”) Trayvon came from at time stamp 3:02 of

    click> George Zimmerman Reenacts Shooting of Treyvon Martin for Police at Crime Scene (Part 2)

    .

    You can see the back of the sign that is part of the dog trash can at time stamp 2:42.

  22. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/trayvon-zimmerman-case-photos/evidence-photos/
    .
    Did any of you notice the small, torn, black piece of plastic by the dog trash can in the evidence photo from the above link? It looks as if it is torn off of the black trash bag of the dog can.
    .
    [The evidence photo I am looking at shows the dog trash can in the left foreground with Trayvon’s body in the right background.]
    .
    .
    Because the sign is right next to the trash can, perhaps that is the sign GZ was referring to when he said he might have been hit into a sign.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I wished they had gathered up that torn piece of plastic and tested it. When have you ever seen a torn piece like that from a public trash can? And, especially a dog-poop trash can?

      I just noticed it for the first time today after all of these weeks.

      • gblock says:

        There is something small and dark on the ground near the trash can, but I’m not convinced about what it is.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        After you click on > http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/wp-content/gallery/evidencephotos/046.jpg
        .
        Pull down your view option at the top of your screen and click “zoom” in.

        • racerrodig says:

          Since the Zidiots have branded Trayvon as having SuperPowers, why didn’t Trayvon stick Fogen into the dog poop can head first. I guess he didn’t really have those powers did he?? The piece of ripped trash bag at the bottom does beg the question, did anything start there and maybe Trayvon had the can between them and when Fogen tried the direct rout he whacked his noggin. He did mention the sign in his interview in a Freudian slip.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            The problem is, if you bump into something, a bush, a tree, branches, sprinkler heads, screws in a sign post, etc., the wounds you get will NOT be of even depth along their entire course.
            At some points the wounds are going to be shallower and at some points they are going to be deeper than at other points. They will not be evenly capillary depth along the entire course of two separate wounds.

            The only way you get this evenly superficial depth is, if someone carefully incises the wounds using a sharp instrument, while the subject sits perfectly still so as not to add additional motion to the effort. Any movement, during the exercise, is likely to cause the wounds to go deeper than intended. That would lead to the medic to be required to make the call to require the trip to the ER, because the wounds could not be dismissed as superficial.

            The key here with the wounds is, GZ needs the blood to bolster a self defense story. But he cannot risk having the wounds created at random at the scene, because he would lose the option to refuse medical intervention. He must refuse medical intervention, because the exam would include a blood test and x-rays for his nose. Drugs could wreck his SYG/SD claims. Thus the wounds must be carefully done, so as to provide lots of blood, while at the same time remain so superficial, that they do not require medical attention.

            See? I’ve read too much already and even though I’ve tried to stop, I’m still discovering more GZ deceit!

            He’s probably taken drugs and a drink or two. He needs to bleed, but not from wounds so bad, that his drug and alcohol use will be detected by a mandatory trip to the ER. Thus the wounds must be kept to superficial. Or he will lose the option to refuse to go to ER.

            He cannot have the wounds created when he’s in his truck, so they have to be created before he leaves home. That’s the only place where he has the “peace and quiet” sufficient to accomplish the task properly. He then took the time to turn and twist his head, to fashion these blood flows, which were congealed in place, by the time he made his NEN call.

            Had the wounds been created by accident, out in that area behind the houses, there is no way he could be sure they would not be so deep as to require a trip to the ER. The earliest photo shows the discrete blood trails that shouldn’t be there, had already congealed. What? In less that 2.5 minutes? When copious blood flows should still have been present? The blood trails on his head should have been filled with very dark fresh flowing blood. The area surrounding them should have been filled with marks and stains where the starting blood flows had been smeared by the rubbing against wet grass which acts like a brush on the back of his head.

            Even as water on the ground and the rain, kept diluting the blood and kept it from drying on his wet, soft, oily skin, at 60 degrees in high humidity to boot.

            In the LLMPapa video I posted up thread. Did I notice dried blood around GZ’s neck at the end? When was that picture taken? GZ was at the station in under an hour after the fatal shot was fired.

            Of course this isn’t needed to get a 2nd degree conviction, but it does go towards proving that GZ had something dramatic planned before he even left home.

          • cielo62 says:

            I was certainly thinking at least a few drinks. Men used to get good and drunk before getting a tattoo. Same thing.

            Sent from my iPod

          • jm says:

            cielo62 says: “I was certainly thinking at least a few drinks.”

            Does GZ have a history of drinking in excess? Also where was GZ the before he decided to go to Target?

            Just wondering if all GZ’s “mistakes in judgement” were due to drugs and/or alcohol and if he has any sort of history of abuse? I know it means nothing in court since he wasn’t tested and doesn’t excuse the murder of Trayvon, just wondering what would make GZ do something so stupid.

          • racerrodig says:

            We all have our theories and I cannot argue what you said. The more we dig the uglier it gets.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        gblock–
        .
        As I look again at the photo, I notice that the part of the trash can in the foreground has the garbage liner correctly tucked over the side at the top. The part of the trash can in the background shows that the garbage liner has slipped down into the trash can.

        It looks as if the torn piece caused part of the garbage liner to sink down into the can.

      • gblock says:

        Yahtcs, I figured out how to do the zoom in, even though the way to do it with my browser is a little different than what you said in your instructions. I see what you mean about the liner. I actually like photo 45 better than photo 46. 45 shows the whole trash can, in 46 it is over on the left edge.

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      I would like to see more pictures of that sign and trash can. Why was a piece of the plastic trash bag torn off and laying there? GZ’s injuries definately could have come from that sign. I wonder what the back side of it looks like. Someone posted on here what brackets used on signs look like and the shape of them match his two small lacerations perfectly.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        That’s what I am thinking.

        You know…..at some point GZ could have been grabbing the back of Trayvon’s sweatshirt both facing the T.

        Trayvon could have cut left (west) in a pivot toward Witness 11’s house. GZ, still holding on, could have been “whipped” into the sign and trash can, maybe even falling and still being dragged to the well- known tree (where he drops his keys) because he wouldn’t let go.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        ChrisNY-Laurie–Do you know how to zoom in a picture that you select. When I did that, it really helped me see everything in more detail.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I agree that the evidence works best by starting at the T. Witness heard everything start at the side of her townhouse at the T and then bend around south to the back of her townhouse. The keychain with flashlight is a key piece of evidence.
        I am going to go retrieve two of my past posts on Newsvine and post them to you here.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          The problem with GZ’s wounds is that randomly created wounds will exhibit random depths along their course. He has two wounds that both are of uniform capillary depth. The only way to achieve that is to have one sit very still in a chair, while a sharp instrument is dragged carefully over the scalp.

          If the wounds were the result of any kind of randam action, the depths would not be uniform over their courses. This is why I add this evidence to the evidence that there was dried blood on GZ when the medics examined him. After only 30 minutes elapsed, there should not have been any dried blood. Congealed, coagulated, of course, dried, no! Then look at how the wounds would have been treated upon their supposed creation! They would have started bleeding on concrete, began smearing with each claimed head bash, on wet concrete, then rolled in wet grass within less than a minute after they were opened.

          Look carefully at the picture taken within 2.5 minutes after they opened. What do you see? You see that there were blood flows that are discrete trails that have coagulated in place. The head was obviously held one way to get the blood flowing in a direction, then the head was re-positioned to have it flow in another direction. There it formed the pattern we see in the photo, and it congealed in that pattern. Those blood flows do not happen in 2.5 minutes, and most especially not while the head is being rolled around on wet grass.

          Thus it is likely that when GZ caught TM, and they fell to the ground, GZ never went fully down. He managed to keep his head aloft as they rolled. GZ probably fell on top of TM, grappled him to prevent him from gaining his feet first. He then rolled to the side to get himself up first and holding TM by the clothes, he pulled him to his feet. Applied a painful hold to TM that started him screaming in pain and fear, then drew his gun and caused TM’s terrified pleading screams. Knowing it would be a felony, to be seen holding this kid at gunpoint, he fired to give himself the ability to claim SYG.

          Had Trayvon lived, it would be impossible for GZ to claim his screams as his own, nor would it be possible for him to claim that he had even been struck by TM. TM’s living demeanor and manner would be available for all to see, making GZ’s claims of a fight, ridiculous in the extreme. In death, only the lack of trace on TM’s hands can testify that he struck no blows at all. One does not live 17 years and three weeks, respectfully obeying and honoring adult authority, only to change that posture in the last 3 minutes of life.
          Less a last minute of life spent at gunpoint.

          Lose the idea that TM ever struck GZ at all. There is absolutely no reasonable evidence or scenario where it makes any sense to believe that this “fight” is any more than a concoction whipped up in the fevered mind of the Zimmerthug!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        The above interview proves that George never made it to RVC. He met up with Trayvon before getting to RVC and NOT on a return trip from RVC.

        • Xena says:

          GZ made it to Retreat View Circle by taking the T and going around the block. He cut Trayvon off. For a week now, I’ve been fleshing out something I posted here in another thread, inspired by Dave’s LLMPapa’s, and Trent Sawyer’s videos. There’s a reason why RVC is so important to GZ. Maybe I’ll get that finished by Monday. It’s too much to present in comments.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        This last comment belongs in the next section where I have now placed it.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Remember [ in the video reenactment] how GZ said Trayvon came to the T from that direction?

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        From Singleton interview (2-26-2012)

        Zimmerman: …… then he still kept trying to hit my head against the pavement, or, I don’t know if there was a sign or what it was…

        George points out the direction (“he says”) Trayvon came from at time stamp 3:02 of

        click> George Zimmerman Reenacts Shooting of Treyvon Martin for Police at Crime Scene (Part 2)

        .

        You can see the back of the sign that is part of the dog trash can at time stamp 2:42.

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        I will watch the reenactment video now to see the back of the sign. I have saved tons of pics and enlarged them, and played around with contrast to try and make them clearer. I just don’t have a pic of the back side of the sign.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Great ChristNY-Laurie. Are you able to take a frame from a video and enlarge it? I don’t know if that is possible.
        .
        I am simultaneously talking to our Trayvon team on Newsvine. One of them suggested the following–
        .
        .
        YAHTC – the torn trash bag could also be because TM put the trash can between him and GZ as protection. GZ grabbed TM and TM grabbed the can thus ripping part of the bag as he tried to get away. During this scuffle, GZ ran into the sign. Makes more sense than any of GZ’s many lies as to how it happened.

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        I see the back of the sign, but it’s not really clear enough.

        I’d like to give my personal opinion on what I think happened.
        I think that George stopped at the T and walked down the path between the town houses looking for his “suspect”. Trayvon was hiding in the bushes (that is where George got the bushes from) near witness 6’s house and came out thinking that George was gone. He began walking home and noticed George was behind him and told DeeDee that the creepy guy was back. I think that they exchanged words and Creepy guy shoved Trayvon (that is his MO- to push people), this is where Trayvon dropped his phone and creepy guy dropped his flashlight, maybe Trayvon did punch the creepy guy after he shoved him and then ran, a witness said that she saw two figures heading north, so clearly he ran away from creepy guy after dropping his phone, which was found south of witness 6’s house and Trayvons body. Near the T is where more shoving and grabbing from creey guy happened causing him to drop his keys and where the wrestling began and where creepy guy hit his head on either the sign or the metal trash can. I think that they were wrestling on the ground when witness 6 saw them from his patio. I think that Trayvon was trying to get away from creepy guy and creepy guy was trying to hold on to him. I think that creepy guy was so pissed off that he hit his head, hurt his nose and wasn’t strong or man enough to “detain” his “suspect”, so he decided to get his gun out and use that instead.
        Or, after Trayvon ran heading north, creepy guy took his gun out near the T and is why he told the stupid story about reaching for his cell phone in case someone saw him reaching for his gun and was going to try and “take the suspect in”, but Trayvon was scared and swung his bag with the canned drink in it hitting creepy guy in the face and creepy guy stumbled backwards hitting the back of his head on the sign. Creepy guy grabbed Trayvon and they fell to the ground wrestling, Trayvon got on top and was holding creepy guy’s hand with the gun down, screaming for help. Creepy guy knew that someone saw them and knew that LE would be there any minute and that he was going to be in trouble for having his gun drawn on a kid, so knowing that he was out of time he pushed Trayvon off of him and grabbed a hold of him and shot him straight in the chest. Then he got on top the Trayvon and with all of his 204 pounds pushed the life right out of him to make sure he couldn’t talk and tell what really happened. He did not spread Trayvon’s hands apart at that time, that was only told by creepy guy in case someone saw him on top holding Trayvon down seconds before shooting him.
        Either scenario works with the forensic evidence, creepy guy’s past history of violence and his MO.
        What doesn’t work is Creepy guy’s story.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          Do you really think the bushes are tall enough and far enough away from the building for Martin to have hid behind them without having to lie on the wet ground?

          Without getting all scratched up?

          Without his clothes getting snagged and torn?

          Without making a hell of a racket coming out from behind them?

          Just because Zimmerman remembers him suddenly appearing with ninja-like stealth and the element of surprise, that doesn’t guarantee that his memory is accurate.

          unitron

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I agree that the evidence works best by starting at the T. Witness heard everything start at the side of her townhouse at the T and then bend around south to the back of her townhouse. The keychain with flashlight is a key piece of evidence.
        I am going to go retrieve two of my past posts on Newsvine and post them to you here.

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        I used to think that it started at the T because of that keychain, but if it started at the T, then how would Trayvon’s phone and creepy guy’s “cop” flashlight get south of Trayvon’s body? That was why I was thinking it started there and moved north by the T, then south again.

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        onlyiamunitron says:

        December 1, 2012 at 9:17 pm

        Do you really think the bushes are tall enough and far enough away from the building for Martin to have hid behind them without having to lie on the wet ground?

        Without getting all scratched up?

        Without his clothes getting snagged and torn?

        Without making a hell of a racket coming out from behind them?

        Just because Zimmerman remembers him suddenly appearing with ninja-like stealth and the element of surprise, that doesn’t guarantee that his memory is accurate.

        unitron

        Have you seen the photo’s of the back of the townhouses? They are definately tall enough for Trayvon to just squat down behind and they are not all right up against the houses either.

        Zimmerman adds half truths into his story. His memory is accurate…he just lies.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        “then how would Trayvon’s phone and creepy guy’s “cop” flashlight get south of Trayvon’s body?”
        .
        .
        They could have come out of GZ’s and Trayvon’s pockets when they were struggling on the ground in front of Witness 6’s house.
        .
        Remember how Witness 6’s sketch had #1 #2 and #3 to indicate
        the three different locations of the fight–
        .
        Drawing #1 is the grass location where Witness 6 FIRST saw George and Trayvon
        .
        Drawing #2 is the dog-walk sidewalk where Witness 6 THEN saw George and Trayvon move onto.
        .
        Drawing #3 is the final position of Trayvon’s body seen by Witness #6 after the shot when he looked out after his 911 call.
        .
        This indicates quite a bit of movement on the ground during which time, both Trayvon’s phone and GZ’s flashlight could have fallen out of their pockets and the two of them could have been north of these objects at the end of the struggle.
        .
        Here are some quotes from the Bachelor interview of Witness 6–Batchelor: All right, now you just mentioned moving to the sidewalk.

        Witness 6: Mm hmm. So, when they were wrestling, when I said, “Cut it out” and before I turned to go inside, they moved up onto the sidewalk, and they’re no longer laying this way, they were this way at that point. So, they had wrestled to that point.

        Batchelor: And, you’re showing them parallel with the-

        Witness 6: Yeah, this is the-

        Batchelor: With the dog walk?

        Witness 6: Yeah, this is the sidewalk.

        (Batchelor interview-March 20)
        At that point Witness 6 went inside to call 911 and heard the shot when he was inside.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        George’s motion in relation to the 911 call.

        Now what we have to understand was that George in Audio Part 3 on February 29 was unable to prove to Serino and Singleton that he had ever made it to Retreat View Circle by way of the T.

        Before I pick out references to prove this point, I really have to put the pertinent section of that interview here. But, I want to highlight a very important part of the section first–

        Serino–(plays tape 2:48 to 4:03 )
        Zimmerman: I’m thumping the damn flashlight as I was walking through.

        (call ends)
        .

        (plays tape 2:08 to 2:10)
        Serino: OK, is that you getting out of the car?
        Zimmerman: Yes.
        Serino: OK.
        Singleton: So as soon as he runs, you’re getting out of the car to follow him.
        Zimmerman: When he says which way are you running, I turned off the ignition.
        Singleton: I don’t know.
        (plays tape 2:10 to 2:14)
        Serino: At that point you’re out of the car?
        Zimmerman: I think so.
        Serino: OK, so you basically jumped out of the car to see where he was going?
        Zimmerman: Yes, sir.
        Serino: OK. That’s not fear. You know what I mean?
        Zimmerman: Yes, sir.
        Serino: That’s one of the problems I have with the whole thing, or I’m gonna have. I mean, I don’t have any problems at all, it’s just that… it’s gonna be a problem
        (plays tape 2:14 to 2:17)
        Singleton: It sounds like you’re running right there.
        Zimmerman: I wasn’t running.
        Singleton: Oh (unintelligible)
        (plays tape 2:16 to 2:17)
        Serino: What is that you’re whispering? @!$%#ing what?
        Zimmerman: Punks.
        Serino: @!$%#ing punks. He wasn’t a @!$%#ing punk. (clears throat)
        (plays tape 2:17 to 2:26)
        Serino: OK.
        (plays tape 2:26 to 2:34 )
        Serino: OK, at the point where he said, are you following him, and he said, we don’t need you to do that, what went through your mind?
        Zimmerman: He’s right.
        Serino: So you shoulda stopped and went back to your vehicle.
        Zimmerman: I still wanted to give him an address.
        Serino: OK.
        (plays tape 2:34 to 2:40)
        Serino: You said he ran again. OK, this is, this is because you don’t

        And

        (plays tape 2:40 to 2:47)
        Serino: Where you at now?
        Zimmerman: On Retreat View Circle, I think.
        Serino: OK.
        (plays tape 2:47 to 3:06)
        Serino: What are you doing right now?
        Zimmerman: Walking back to my car.
        Serino: OK.
        (plays tape 2:17 to 2:41)
        Serino: OK, if I time this portion, this is important, OK? I almost gotta reconstruct this.
        (plays tape 2:16 to 2:41)
        Serino: When do you start walking back to your car? Time here. You’re going towards Retreat View, right?
        Zimmerman: Yeah.
        Serino: OK.
        (plays tape 2:28 to 2:41)
        Serino: OK, where you at now?
        Zimmerman: I think on Retreat View Circle.
        Serino: OK. Is that 2:41? OK.
        (plays tape 2:41 to 2:47)
        Serino: OK, you’re walking back to your car?
        Zimmerman: Yes, sir,
        (plays tape 2:48 to 4:03 )
        Zimmerman: I’m thumping the damn flashlight as I was walking through.
        (call ends)

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        And so, here are the important time stamps of the NEN tape from this interview–
        2:08 GZ- “He’s running” (George exits car)

        2:24 Dispatcher- “Are you following him?”

        2:25 GZ- “Yeah”

        2:28 Dispatcher- “We don’t need you to do that”

        2:48 GZ is knocking on his flashlight right after giving his last name to dispatcher.

        .

        First of all I want to point out that George is knocking on his flashlight (2:48 time stamp)………40 seconds after he exits his car.

        .

        But, look where George says he is at time stamp 2:40 to 2:48

        (plays tape 2:40 to 2:47)
        Serino: Where you at now?
        Zimmerman: On Retreat View Circle, I think.
        Serino: OK.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        The above interview proves that George never made it to RVC. He met up with Trayvon before getting to RVC and NOT on a return trip from RVC.

      • gblock says:

        Compare to the “reenactment”. Creepy Guy had more than enough time to make it to RVC and back. If he didn’t make it there, he must have been running in a different direction. Which may very well be the case, but we should be clear on that.

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        Xena, thanks for the link. I just read what you wrote there. I’m confused about where you say George goes after the T. Are you saying creepy guy ran to the T and accidently dropped his keychain there, then continued straight to RVC and turned right down RVC heading towards the back enterance to the end of the 1st row of townhouses and then turned right between the two rows of townhouses to get back to the dogwalk, at the other end of the T and cut Trayvon off there?

        • Xena says:

          Are you saying creepy guy ran to the T and accidently dropped his keychain there,

          Yes. That’s highly likely since he only has 2 hands and one was pre-occupied with the cell phone while he banged on his tactical flashlight trying to get it to work.

          then continued straight to RVC and turned right down RVC heading towards the back enterance to the end of the 1st row of townhouses …

          No. If you watch the bonus part of Dave’s video, you will see where the “T” comes out at RVC. IMO, GZ took that route to where the dog path comes out at RVC and entered it from the south.

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        Xena- I get what you’re saying and it makes perfect sense! Thanks

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Xena, I have always kept that scenario in the back of my mind and I keep looking for evidence (unsuccessfully so far) to back it up.
        .
        I do want to know where GZ’s vehicle was found.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          And just as important, which way it was pointed.

          unitron

        • Xena says:

          I do want to know where GZ’s vehicle was found.

          That might be denoted in some of the code in the calls to check the registrations of vehicles. The State probably already knows. If they don’t through the calls, they do by the clubhouse video tapes. The State entered the calls and videos into evidence, and I go on the premise that they did not do so without understanding what it means to nail GZ’s coffin shut.

      • gblock says:

        Xena,

        On your blog, you mentioned something that had occurred to me as well. That is, that he might have banged on his tactical flashlight because he wanted it to work before he started heading down the dark dog walk path.

        I’ve also wondered whether the truck was parked further down than usually claimed, but I thought about it last night and I think that the assumed location is probably fairly close. My reasoning is that Trayvon probably took the cutover and turned down the T, both because he wanted to get to where Creepy Guy couldn’t see him and because he was probably familiar with that path, and it would have been natural for Creepy Guy to initially follow the same path that Trayvon took, instead of immediately looking for a different route.

        • Xena says:

          On your blog, you mentioned something that had occurred to me as well. That is, that he might have banged on his tactical flashlight because he wanted it to work before he started heading down the dark dog walk path.

          Until I see something differently, that is my belief.

          I’ve also wondered whether the truck was parked further down than usually claimed, but I thought about it last night and I think that the assumed location is probably fairly close.

          In his re-enactment, GZ said that he pulled up and stopped in front of the “For Sale” sign. I don’t believe that, and the reason I don’t believe that is because when he was giving the re-enactment for Trayvon coming back and circling his truck, he made no adjustment for where he purportedly parked on the 26th, to where he was parked while telling his lies to the officers. His arm motions were as though he was parked where the investigators parked.

          Wherever GZ was parked when he said “He’s coming to check me out,” is where GZ was when he got out of his truck, IMO. Now, I could be wrong — there are others who have studied the background sounds of the gears and such. Logically however, if Trayvon was coming towards GZ’s truck, GZ was not driving/moving.

          My reasoning is that Trayvon probably took the cutover and turned down the T, both because he wanted to get to where Creepy Guy couldn’t see him …

          Ahh, and that might be true had GZ actually pulled up and parked where he said so that Trayvon knew GZ was on foot. It is my impression that Trayvon ran to the cut-through and dog path because he knew GZ had followed him in a vehicle, and there was no road for a vehicle beyond the cut-through. The “T” however, extends to Retreat View Circle where cars can drive. IMO, Trayvon did not know that GZ was following him on foot.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Tchoupi’s analysis shows that GZ stopped and trained his lights on the mailbox area, GZ leaves that out of his narrative as well.

          • Xena says:

            Tchoupi’s analysis shows that GZ stopped and trained his lights on the mailbox area, GZ leaves that out of his narrative as well.

            GZ intentionally terrorized Trayvon. He probably wanted to instigate a confrontation from his truck.

            There’s so much that GZ leaves out, such as the pics taken of his head by a resident. When? In his story, he flows from being on Trayvon’s back to seeing a flashlight thinking it was a cop, to seeing another flashlight that was a cop. There is no time, in GZ’s story, for taking photos or talking to the witness. Why would he leave that out? Because he was on his phone maybe? With whom? It wasn’t with ShelLIE because he asked a witness to call his wife.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Let’s focus on George Zimmerman’s keychain with the flashlight attached.

      In my opinion, its location at the crime scene ……on the T side of that well known tree…….is all that is needed to defeat George’s claim to SYG or George’s claim to self defense.

      All the other evidence……. all of George’s statements both in audio and video interviews……..all of the other evidence is simply icing on the cake for the prosecution.

      The keychain clinches the case!

      Why?

      Because the keychain marks the location where George should have stayed. The fact that the keychain’s light was still on is an extra gift to the prosecution. It was in use!

      Trayvon’s body was found a good 30+ feet south of that keychain. Trayvon was trying to escape toward home.

      What did George do? George pursued Trayvon. No valid self defense there.

      George should have gone in the opposite direction. Had everything gone north toward the T from the keychain, George might today have some chance at a self defense claim because north would have shown that George was attempting to retreat.

      But….no. George was on the offense. He headed SOUTH of the keychain after Trayvon as Trayvon attempted to get away toward home. He just would not let go of Trayvon……..he would not let Trayvon go home.

      The keychain with its flashlight is solid, physical evidence.

      The keychain ALONE defeats George’s self defense claim.

      • Xena says:

        The keychain with its flashlight is solid, physical evidence.

        I agree, along with the tactical flashlight. As we hear on the NEN call, GZ got out of his car quickly. That means he had to have had the tactical flashlight within his reach. By him having that tactical flashlight conveniently within his reach and with him when he got out of his truck, also indicates that he planned to physically walk and/or look into dark areas.

        Where GZ lived has an attached garage. It would not be necessary for him to have a tactical flashlight in the truck within his reach to see how to enter his house.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        “Where GZ lived has an attached garage. It would not be necessary for him to have a tactical flashlight in the truck within his reach to see how to enter his house.”
        .
        .
        Good point, Xena.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        By him having that tactical flashlight conveniently within his reach and with him when he got out of his truck, also indicates that he planned to physically walk and/or look into dark areas.”
        .
        .
        Very excellent point, Xena. Yes….and he would not have needed that to shine a light on a number for an address on RVC.

      • Rachael says:

        Xena, I wish you were on the defense team – I hope somehow you can get this to the defense, because it speaks volumes.

        • Xena says:

          Xena, I wish you were on the defense team – I hope somehow you can get this to the defense, because it speaks volumes.

          Rachael, you mean the prosecution team. 🙂

          I would love being their right-hand assistant to develop questions for cross, or opening statement points to the jury for trial in the event GZ does not testify.

      • Rachael says:

        ACKK!!!! WTF am I saying! I mean the prosecution. Sometimes I get confused because we are defending Trayvon and he is not the one who should need to be defended. OMG, I’m sorry. Ughhh.

      • thanks for all those transcripts.
        also, about the flashlight(s) plural! why have 2? i can understand one on a key chain. but obviously that tactical one is for his self appointed NW *patrols* people saw him with it before, and even that night, on his so-called trip to target he found it necessary to creep around the clubhouse? well, why didn’t he mention that little detour during the questioning? ever??? he’s clearly seen on the CCV, on foot, with his flashlight and red jacket. i think those CCvs wll show the jury without a doubt he’s lying about going to the store and lying about merely happening upon Trayvon as he was heading to the store.
        those prove he was looking for trouble with a flashlight and gun, not going shopping.

        ps. but i still think the stuff at the T were placed there purposely though, i don’t think it was an accident they were sitting there.

      • Jun says:

        Cheorge does a lot of slips of the tongue and I believe he meant he was going after his Target and then he realized he was trying to stage a self defense claim, so now his story is he was heading to Target with 40 cents and a gun LMAO

      • Erica says:

        @Xena. now I believe gz is a coward that bullied a kid but Im trying to understand ur theory that it was within reach. We cant hear when GZ stops his truck so, in my objective opinion, supporting Trayvon mind, he may have been sitting there for a minute before he got out of his vehicle, we don’t hear his car running, we don’t hear when he turns the vehicle off, we just hear the door openning. I think we are giving O Mara too much information, he looks at what is posted and videos and he finds solutions to our concerns before trial, I think he or his assistant reads these posts, looks at LLMPAPA videos and is looking for a way to address these issuses in court but I guess you cant change the evidence

        • Xena says:

          @Xena. now I believe gz is a coward that bullied a kid but Im trying to understand ur theory that it was within reach. We cant hear when GZ stops his truck so, in my objective opinion, supporting Trayvon mind, he may have been sitting there for a minute before he got out of his vehicle,…

          Sitting there playing with his tactical flashlight and taking it with him by accident when he left his truck????? Nope. He had that tactical flashlight within easy reach.

          I think we are giving O Mara too much information, …

          Good. That should confuse him more in trying to develop a reasonable, logical defense for GZ’s lies.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      .

      I speculate that George Zimmerman shot to kill that tragic night. He did NOT HAVE TO aim for Trayvon’s heart.

      .

      That cry for help was a cry of forlorn desperation! It was a cry from someone looking death in its face!

      .

      I truly believe that cry was Trayvon’s. It was a pitiful cry from Trayvon as George aimed at him and said, “You are going to die”.

      .

      Why would a seventeen year old react to George and say, “You are going to die.”?! Trayvon did not need to do that. He defensively took care of the creepy pursuer by jabbing George in the nose……( which probably caused George to injure his head against that tree as George fell to the ground.)

      .

      I believe that was TOO MUCH for the wannabe cop….the man who just never seemed to be successful at anything…..the man who desperately wanted to prove himself after failing at so many ventures………. from insurance (unable to pass the test to obtain a license)………. to police cadet (not accepted)……..to D’s in criminal justice courses …………….to rejection of his application for an associates degree at Seminole College.

      .

      Yes, George…………… who was “at the end of his rope” due to so many failures………… let his RAGE take overafterthat JAB to his nose— because that jab ENDED another of GZ’s attempts to shine as a hero……..a hero watch patroler

      .

      Yes, George decided that Trayvon was going to PAY for the “put down” that GZ had just endured from that jab to the nose! I truly believed that George decided that he would make Trayvon pay for it with his LIFE!

      .

      In this cold act……..George revealed that his mind was truly DEPRAVED!

    • leander22 says:

      you mean this image?

      Look at the other side, there are dark, black spots too. But I am with you there must have been a reason GZ walked into that direction. He obviously was looking for something.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        and this image click> http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/wp-content/gallery/evidencephotos/046.jpg
        .
        also SHOWS the torn off plastic trash liner on the ground next to the trash can.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          So then, here’s how the blood on Z’s head is supposed to have concealed in something under 2.5 minutes after the concocted fight story, which involved a head, bashed several times on wet concrete, then almost immediately being rolled and slid around in wet grass during a life and death struggle: http://youtu.be/0NoiAZcuqrA

          If you can believe GZ’s story, then please step into my office and let’s get the bargain priced Brooklyn Bridge sale done, so you can set up your toll booths by morning!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        As an aside…….You can see dirt debris around the well known tree in the photo link I provided.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Lonnie, I have always thought that is one of LLMPapa’s BEST videos and is most helpful in disproving GZ’s version of events.

      • gblock says:

        Lonnie, I thought that the photos of Creepy Guy’s head were taken at the police station. That would have given the blood some time to dry.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          The first picture of GZ’s bloody head with the blood trails was taken just before the police arrived, while GZ was on his cell phone it appears. It was taken by a neighbor. He couldn’t take this picture once the police arrived, because the policeman held GZ at gunpoint, removed his weapon and cuffed him. So, that picture had to be taken within 1 minute after the shot was fired, because the Police arrived 1 minute after that happened.

          So the claimed fight happened sometime after the NEN call ended and GZ was chasing TM for some seconds according to ear witnesses. So, in reality, there is no time for GZ’s head bashing to have happened, the time is filled with activities that are partially witnessed by different people. Even the ear witness testimony is telling us that GZ had control of his senses, if the screams he claimed were his. Of course, even that false narrative is interrupted by calm, while he asks a witness to help him.

          So, where the slice of time can be found, for this head bashing event to have taken place is seriously questionable. Maybe our sleuths might want to go to work on that.

          In any event, assuming GZ’s story is true, then less than 2.5 minutes are available before the first picture of his head is taken at the scene. He has to have obtained his wounds during that 2.5 minutes. As far as at the station, George is taken there in about 35 minutes after the shot is fired. 37.5 minutes in total, the picture at the station is an enhanced frame capture from the stations cctv.

          The blood should have taken more than 70 minutes to dry according to the ball park example I found that says, a drop of blood dried in 70 minutes on a hard surface in low humidity at room temperature.
          Because all of those conditions are the exact opposite of what it would take to dry blood any faster. GZ’s skin is a soft oily surface, it was raining, the grass and concrete were wet, the humidity was high and the temperature was 12 degrees below room temperature.

          Yet, within some 15 minutes of the supposed fight, medics found dried blood on GZ at the scene. While the first photo shows a blood stain with discrete blood trails and no debris. Are wet shoes more sticky than a bloody head? The wet shoes show grass debris sticking to them, why shouldn’t the sticky blood on the head have picked up debris as well? How does blood congeal into discrete blood trails in less than 2.5 minutes, after being whacked on wet concrete then rolled in wet grass? How does concrete or anything else, create two separate wounds of uniform “capillary” depth along their entire course?

          Wounds that fit within a necessary set of parameters for cause? Not so deep as to require a mandatory trip to ER, yet deep enough to provide a large blood flow? GZ needs to stay away from the hospital where a blood/toxicology test is almost certain to ensue. Yet, he needs blood to make serious his claim of a life threatening
          assault.

          • cielo62 says:

            Early on in the case I said something like this (not anywhere nearly as detail) about the need for the blood flow to have been smeared or stuck with grass or SOMETHING to indicate that it was smashed against concrete. I was immediately drowned out by ProZ voices, blaming the rain for “cleaning it up” or the EMTs cleaning it up, but the wounds were just so serious they kept on bleeding. Forget that the blood was found DRY. They would have none of my questions. I learned early on to pick my sites where to comment.

            ________________________________

      • gblock says:

        Lonnie, didn’t some contributors to this blog figure out that the on-scene pictures were almost certainly photoshopped?

        How long after Creepy Guy’s arrival at the police station were the photos taken?

  23. William Walton says:

    Prof: The term “Get Off Me” has been used many times in many blogs denoting that Trayvon & Zimmerman were on the ground. During the Thanksgiving Holiday I had a chance to ask my young adult daughter and young adult son what the term “get off me” meant to them. Their response was “Leave Me Alone”, “Get Out of My Face”, “You Are Invading My Territory”, “Do Not Touch Me”, “You Grabbed Me, Let GO”. In essensence, it means, “You are Annoying Me, Leave Me Alone, & Go Away”. My daughter (MS Chemistry) has also used the term to tell a guy “Quit Hitting on Me”. According to Son and Daughter, this is common jargon for young people today.
    This would also substantiate my theory that Travyon was standing when shot.

    It would also be interesting if you would put together a blog which lists what pertinent data is available to show that Zimmerman as we know is guily of Second Degree Murder.

    • Malisha says:

      William Walton, you can go to Axiom Amnesia and basically hear and see most of the information needed to buttress the 2nd degree murder charge.

      I agree that “get off me” is equivalent to “go away” but I also think the “gowaaaaay” sound meant “go away” and they didn’t have to indicate, in either case, that the two were standing. I do think it is likely that Trayvon was on the ground on his back when he was shot because the bullet went straight in at no angle and because many witnesses, including those who seemed to want it to come out Cheorge’s way, said both were on the ground at some point. But another reason I believe Trayvon was on the ground on his back when shot is this:

      Cheorge had to make up a part of the story to cover several inconvenient facts that he knew were witnessed by too many people to “undo” them:

      They saw him on top of Trayvon Martin;
      They saw him doing something to Trayvon Martin after the shot was fired;
      They saw him get up from ON TOP of Trayvon Martin’s body.

      I think what he was really doing was this:

      Kneeling or standing over Trayvon Martin while that last terrified shriek is heard, with his left hand holding Trayvon’s hoodie while he aimed and shot with his right hand.

      THEN he settled his ass down on Trayvon and realized there was no more movement, but worried immediately about the possibility that the bullet passed through, exited the back, and lodged in the ground (although hollowpoints are designed to burst apart while inside the target). So he turned Trayvon OVER to see if there was an exit wound. Satisfied that there was not, he got up and walked away, rubbing his head and possibly face. Possibly distributing some of Trayvon’s blood on his own head and face.

      That’s what I have, considering the facts that don’t fit very well and considering the amount of time that passed and considering Cheorge’s habit of making up one little lie or another little lie to take care of inconvenient facts he can’t just outright deny.

      • William Walton says:

        It goes back to my original statement from a physics concept that both were standing. Once shot, Zimmerman would have fallen on Trevon and therefore, would have been on top of him. Also go back and look at blogs which state that Zimmerman had grass in the toes of his boots/shoes. This would indicate that they were standing and Zimmerman fired the shot. With the force of gravity and the momentum of Trevon’s falling body, Zimmerman would be pulled toward him and thus, Zimmerman’s boots/shoes would show that evidence.

      • leander22 says:

        “from a physics concept” if I may, supposing for one moment that defense will have to work with whatever witnesses reported, they can very easily explain that the grass on the toe/tip of GZ’s shows could have happened when he kneeled over him “was straddling” Trayvon’s body, while Zimmerman supposedly stretched his arms out, since he did not believe he was dead after a close distance shot into his heart. And Trayvon kept on talking. Who exactly did put them back under the body later? From a defense perspective that can’t have been police since they did such a good job.

        I could imagine that defense would like to have a brainstorming on possible scenarios, wouldn’t be bad to be prepared for every argument. Even better if Fred did it, resulting in a thread where everybody could add his perspective and ideas. 😉

      • leander22 says:

        sorry, when I get slightly emotional my inner proofreader seems to deny service:

        GZ’s showsshoes could have happened got there when he kneeled over Trayvon’s body or was straddling him.

      • Mirre says:

        @william walton
        W18 saw them struggle on the ground and was watching when the shot was fired. She never saw either one get up until GZ got up about 40 seconds after she heard the shot.I think that excludes the possibillity that they were standing when Trayvon was shot.

        • cielo62 says:

          No, but they COULD have been kneeling; not all the way down or up, either. Remember, people’s eyewitness accounts may be faulty, but the forensic shot evidence indicates a STRAIGHT shot into the body. And that will trump whatever people “think” they saw.

          ________________________________

    • racerrodig says:

      When our significant other is in that pester mode, does “Get off my back” ring a bell. Has anyone physically climbed down after that was said.

      Get off me may have meant let go of my hoodie…let go of my wrist….let go of my arm……

      • cielo62 says:

        It could also mean ” leave me the eff alone!”

        Sent from my iPod

      • jm says:

        Younger kids say “get off” when they want their toy back or someone gets into their things. It’s a short cut for lots of stuff you want someone to get off of.

      • leander22 says:

        Strictly, I associate “back” in our context with being followed, get off my back in this context would signal to me, if I had to translate it with the obvious problem to find the adequate colloquialism, “stop following me”, stop being behind me/in my back. Since if someone follows you, and thus gives you an uncomfortable feeling, he is usually behind your back, sticks to your heels, so to speak. To return to the initial grass on the shoe tip versus the opposite side.

        Reminds me, I have to donate to the Trayvon Martin fund, considering the latest autograph for continued flowing fund marketing. Petition-wise we are staying well ahead. And we have 8 more days than “they” have. I hate to use “they” this way but in this context, I can’t avoid it.

        Justice for Trayvon!

        • racerrodig says:

          As to the grass stains on Fogen’s boots toes. There were no such stains on Trayvon’s sneakers. I say Fogen was on top in a conventional sense. But that’s just me.

      • leander22 says:

        racerrodig, explain:

        Has anyone physically climbed down after that was said.

        Keep always in mind, that DeeDee was cut off at least as far as we know in the first moments of the encounter. The other side wants us to believe that it started with Trayvon hitting Georgie’s nose. Nothing she can have experienced acoustically can have been related to the later witnessed scenario.

        • racerrodig says:

          True.

          Dee Dee states Trayvon said “Get off me…”

          Dee Dee never states anything prior as to any encounter physically, nor do any witnesses that would even suggest an attack by Trayvon.

          I’d think if she knew he did attack Fogen, she’d have said something even we suspect……remember she knew of no details of the crime scene when she gave her 1st statement. She did not know if Trayvon had a broken knuckle from a punch…nothing.

          There is speculation that Fogen initially stopped Trayvon at the T and Trayvon used the poop drop as a barrier. It may be one of them ripped the trash bag. Fogen may have smacked his head on the sign, which is what I have thought for a long time.

          All 3 cuts are tooooooooo straight to have been inflicted by a sidewalk.

      • Jun says:

        I believe Cheorge’s cuts are self inflicted. He was seen by witnesses after murdering a kid he stalked, fiddling with his head after, and I believe he was staging his “injuries” for his self defense claim. I also feel he ran into a tree branch, and slipped and fell chasing Trayvon. Cheorge went across the top of the T, went back a bit and then noticed Trayvon down the back pathway, and then decided to chase the kid down and confront him. When he caught up, he cut the kid access to go home, and started herding Trayvon north. When Cheorge decided to run down the back pathway after Cheorge, he ran into a tree branch.

    • Jun says:

      I believe Cheorge, the adult with no self control, lunged at Trayvon and grabbed him, to which Trayvon stated “Get Off”

      Witness 18 can give a clearer indication of what happened

      as she saw it from the confrontation onward and she specifically states that Cheorge was overpowering Trayvon (as if pressing his dreamed authority on the young boy)

  24. colin black says:

    Also want to repost this from last thread in case anyone missed it………………………………………………………………………………………………..tonydphotog says:

    December 1, 2012 at 1:19 am

    It still amazes me on how the killer is estranged from his family for years, and then is tight with his family after killing a kid!

    Did the killing make him worthy of his family name? Is this some sovereign citizen ritual?
    _______________

    Xena says:

    December 1, 2012 at 1:33 am

    Did the killing make him worthy of his family name? Is this some sovereign citizen ritual?

    Probably more like blackmail. If Junior and Papa Zim didn’t go to the media to defend GZ, he would tell about all those skeletons in the closet that resulted in him being a lunatic killer. But yeah — sovereign citizens are like cults in that they want to know everything personal about others as leverage to use against them if they dare say “no” to the cult’s demands or leave it.

    ——————————-

    I think BOTH of you are RIGHT.
    And i think it goes like this:

    * GZ was NEVER good enough in papa’s eyes ( by default, glayds’ didn’t like him much either) a few of those reasons might be;

    1. GZ’s physical appearance; he isn’t white enough. and there’s reason to question whether GZ &RZjr are even biologically papaz’s. (personally i don’t think they are.) and so there’s that internal unconscious rejection from the git go.
    I’ve seen a phenomena where white men are attracted to darker women. but that doesn’t necessarily include the mixed kids from that union.

    2. i also think papaz does have a drinking problem, a self-control problem and self esteem problems that contribute to his probable propensity & disrespectfulness and violence against women & racial inferiority complex. In order to feel good about themselves they have to dominate and discriminate against someone else! And it typically is a big family secret.

    3. People like papaz like to be perceived as good christians and good family men. They have to keep that image up no matter the cost. And lying and cheating to maintain the status quo is common and pretty much essential in their lives and NOT considered inconsistent with their beliefs.
    These people are not opposed to disowning their kids if their indiscretion’s become public/known within their circle of peers/family members. I think that’s what happened when GZ’s molestation accusations were exposed by the other family members. Papaz decided to cut GZ off and used the molestation to do that. Then with GZ out of the picture, all was right with the world again.

    Then GZ killed an innocent kid.
    But because GZ had been using his father’s name and contacts all over the place to weasel special treatment, even though they weren’t speaking for years, this threatened papaz’s perfect world. So he had to come out on his own or be dragged out by the media.

    His *imaginary* reputation was at stake so he picked GZ’s lies/side for his own selfish, self-serving purposes. Papaz does NOT want his nasty family secrets (and possible crimes) coming out publicly. And he figured in order to protect himself he had no choice but to help GZ beat the rap.

    Reply

    • looneydoone says:

      Colin,
      Why is it assumed Mrs Zimmerman is *dark* ?
      I have many friends born and raised in Peru. Two, Charles and Karl are blonde, blue eyed, very fair complexions. Their families emigrated from Germany/Austria to Peru nearly 100 years ago.They both attended private schools in the very large Euro-emigrant community near Lima, and both grew up speaking German in the schools and home..Spanish when outside their own neighborhood/community . There are hundreds of thousands more across Latin America with the same European background/ancestry….particularly Peru, Bolivia, Venezuela, Cuba and Mexico.

      Gladys Zimmerman may not be *dark* after all. Gladys is not a name given girls outside that demographic in Latin America

      Just something to consider

      • @LoooLoo, i said gz’s mother is *darker*, not colin. and the reason why i say this is because *i* can see gz & rzjr are much darker than papaz! no scientific expertise required! Gz looks typical peruvian to me. a mix of African, Asian and european, with maybe some indian, but i can’t figure out what american indians actually look like.

        and you’re right about peruvians ethnic diversity. but the majority of the population is not *white european*. it’s a mix of european, Asian and American Indian and African. and historically there’s been an ethic/class divide. so much so the country refuses to acknowledge the true ethnic census. they (government) want to be perceived more european than what the reality is. it’s a problem. and probably just another clue into gz’s troubled life!

        as far as gz’s mother, there’s suggestion that glayds isn’t really the mother of those two boys, and that they actually belong to her sister. now i wont repeat what was said about gz’s alleged birth mom unless and until she actually comes out and claims him and condones his behavior. because as far as i’m concerned, if she didn’t raise him it’s not her fault he’s the way he is! But, gladys OTOH, if she wants to come out a perpetuate his lies, then she’s a dumb ass bitch!

    • looneydoone says:

      shannoninmiami

      Firstly, I’m not Looo Loo. That’s another person who’s screenname I’ve seen on a couple of comments posted here on the Professor’s site. My friends call me “Doone” (the nickname “cookie” makes me looney )

      Lastly, I used “Mrs Zimmerman” to describe Gladys…rather than “the mother of rj and gz”. …as there seems to be considerable speculation about that. In conclusion, the name Gladys leads me to suspect she’s not *dark*, despite there being so many who assume it’s a fact due to her being “Peruvian/Latina”.

      que le vaya un buen dia, shannon

      • sorry Doone! like i said, there’s that phenomena and my name is shannon and i ain’t Irish!! LOL

        rzj and omar, the whole bunch, are screaming how un-racist they are from the rooftops!!
        these peeps are totally lost in moronland.

      • gbrbsb says:

        @Looneydoone
        I think shannoninmiami has a good point even if it´s not proof. Papa Zim is definitely white while both GZ and RZJr definitely show latin traits, and more especially GZ, which had to come from somewhere and if not Papa Zim then it would have to be Gladys which is logical if you consider that Peru has very large native indian and mixed race populations with Asian, black and white together adding up to around just 20%.

        Obviously without more info the above is IMO so you may not agree. It is of course also possible Papa Zim is of mixed ancestry. I am sceptical about the sons being adopted because 28 years ago, at least in the UK it was practically impossible for whites to adopt ethnic minority children as it was the policy that these should be adopted by persons of their own race.

      • gblock says:

        gbrbsb, the adoption claim was that Junior and GZ were actually the biological children of Gladys’s sister. If so, the Hispanic features could come from the biological father.

        Also, I remember that in the late 1960s, some Americans were already starting to adopt Asian children who were not related to them, so it was legally permitted by then. My sister and her husband adopted a Brazilian baby in 1985, which is only a few years later than the time that we are talking about, and it seemed to already be a fairly well-established practice at that time. (Although, if it was an adoption of relatives, it may not have been an issue anyway.)

      • leander22 says:

        I am with you on this looney, thanks for explaining your aka. But how and why does a cookie makes one a looney? And what exactly was signaled by friends calling you Doone? That is the point were my language abilities fail me.

        Basically when I traveled with my best teen age friend, while we were both Germans we were usually assumed to be Italian or Spanish, me Italian my friend Spanish. So much for our abilities to guess origins. Interestingly my mother’s blue eyes surfaced again in my nieces. My sister is as dark haired as I am but has green eyes, her then husband had brown eyes. So some genetic traits may well surface again over generations.

        Strictly I am assuming that GZ’s half-sister is his father’s daughter from an earlier marriage. I think that the father’s military background may be more important, resulting in a mainly absent father and maybe also to a certain in a special type of education (training?). I found it interesting that GZ polished his boots every morning at as a boy intending to join the military. …

        Strictly I wonder about the wisdom to dive into whoever’s racial make up in this context, beyond the well-adapted and the suspicion of his former ex in this context. I am not completely objecting to it, because obviously if her impression was correct it matters but it feels maybe only in a hyper confirmation to what are felt to be dominant norms.

        I don’t like this argument especially considering the following type in the treehouse circles:

        The whole thing is an institutionally media-generated racialist/socialist psycho-political agitator’s dream come true.

        They obviously don’t want to understand that the issue is discrimination against blacks by US police. What for instance explains Ayala’s urgent activities on 02/26/2012 to get a fingerprint scanner? That’s why Trayvon body covered by a yellow sheet had to remain in place for hours. Would it have happened if Trayvon was white? That’s something the treehousers would never admit, since he is a thug for them after all. So the activities from their perspective were perfectly justified, and have nothing to do with racism. As the above suggests, its in fact us that are the racists.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          “They obviously don’t want to understand that the issue is discrimination against blacks by US police. What for instance explains Ayala’s urgent activities on 02/26/2012 to get a fingerprint scanner? That’s why Trayvon body covered by a yellow sheet had to remain in place for hours. Would it have happened if Trayvon was white?”

          Google “fingerprinting children for safety”

          A criminal record is not the only reason a young man’s fingerprints might be in the system.

          Regardless of what color he was, he was unidentified and they were trying to indentify him.

          Unless you’re saying they wouldn’t have bothered to try to identify a dead white kid.

          unitron

  25. colin black says:

    LLMPapa……Respect an awe at all you do to support an show the truth…

  26. colin black says:

    Of course there will be know coaching on the tape or digital recording ..Sounds like both Crump an a media station both recorded the interviue via telephone with Dee Dee..As Frederick pointed out your not going to coerse .coach a witness with a 3rd party present an recording your crime tampering for possterrity/evidence.Logic an common sense though does not prevail with people whom lack either or both of those functioning within there cranium.

  27. onlyiamunitron says:

    Crump was saying she was a 16 year old minor and now it looks like she was 18 at the time.

    He apparently copied the original recording via the “air gap”, i.e., speaker to microphone, with we have no way of knowing what if any edits or ommissions.

    ABC apparently has better audio quality copies of at least some of the interview than what Crump has made available.

    Possibly through no fault of her own her credibility as a witness and the admissability of any testimony by her may be in question.

    I think that tempest may grow too large for a teapot before all is said and done.

    unitron

    • You are speculating that he might have done something improper without any evidence to support your speculation.

      I believe it’s improper to assume that an officer of the court would not only do that, but do it in front of witnesses.

      Good grief! People don’t attempt to persuade witnesses to change their recollection of an important matter in front of witnesses from ABC News.

      • jm says:

        To what benefit would it be to state Dee-Dee’s age as 16 rather than 18?

        I mean for those who think Crump was “devious” in saying Dee-Dee was 16, what difference would it make if she were 18 to the defense, prosecution or to Crump. To me she was a teen who was talking to Trayvon shortly before GZ killed him.

        This sounds like much ado about nothing to distract from GZ’s lies after profiling, following and killing Trayvon Martin.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          If it didn’t matter, why not tell the truth about it from the beginning?

          It brings into question Crump’s credibility and raises the question of about what else might he have not been accurate.

          unitron

          • jm says:

            There is a possibility Crump misunderstood. Because of Dee-Dee’s dialect I have a difficult time understanding her. Even so to what benefit would it be for Crump to misstate her age as 16 rather than 18. She’s a teen talking to a teen prior to him being shot and killed. Isn’t that the issue? Why the focus on Crump?

            On another note, when GZ said MOM knew about the money in his Paypal on prison taped phone call and MOM said he didn’t remember him being told about the money, does that bring MOM’s credibility into question. Does it bring GZ’s credibility into question?

            Just curious because I really don’t understand what this has to do with the killing of Trayvon Martin.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            It has to do with what will and won’t be permitted to be presented at trial, and whether the defense is being provided with all the info to which it is legally entitled.

            Of course if you want Zimmerman to have lots of extra grounds for appeal in case he gets convicted…

            unitron

          • Crump’s credibility is not an issue in this case. He is not a witness to anything. He had a conversation with a witness that was broadcast over a speakerphone with 6 others present listening, including two people from ABC News.

            You are attempting to make an issue out of nothing.

            The defendant is the murderer and liar with the credibility problems.

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        I’m speculating about the possible speculation of others.

        I’m not on anyone’s side here except the side of finding out what really happened, but after half a year of referring to her as “the young lady” and not even using the nickname everyone else was out of my respect for her status as a minor, to find out now that maybe she’s been 18 all along certainly has me in “what else is being withheld?” mode.

        And all of my years working with audio make Crump’s choice of the lowest-fi possible duplication method like fingernails on a blackboard.

        unitron

      • Jun says:

        Do you have any proof of her age? Her identity is witness protected and you dont have it, so yes, you are speculating.

      • Rachael says:

        I *think* as a minor, she would be awarded privileges a person of age woul not (i.e. privacy) and perhaps handled/questioned differently? IDK though, just guessing.

      • grahase says:

        Perhaps it was done to protect her from harm. Look at the CTH and the way they harassed relentlessly a girl who they THOUGHT was DeeDee. Perhaps the hate and the threats were something the prosecution and those associated with DeeDee anticipated.

      • Xena says:

        It’s my impression that the only interview with DeeDee that means anything at trial is the interview conducted by Bernie. IMO, Attorney Crump conducted the interview because of the discovery that Trayvon received calls from DeeDee within minutes of being killed. He wanted a record of what was communicated during those calls.

        Had DeeDee not agreed to the interview, the phone records still substantiate that GZ changed his tone of voice, and his plans on where to meet the cops, after and during the last phone call that Trayvon received, thereby indicating that GZ heard Trayvon talking on his phone.

        GZ went from saying “He ran” to not wanting to give his address to dispatch on the basis of “I don’t know where this kid is at” indicating his belief that Trayvon had not left the R@TL, that GZ had not stop looking for Trayvon, and in fact, that he believed Trayvon was within a close enough range to hear GZ talk.

        The defense has the State’s interview with DeeDee which is sufficient for them to formulate questions for her deposition.

        DeeDee’s age only means something for the defense. If she is indeed the age of emancipation, they will try to get her personal information released to the Zidiots to further their agenda of witness intimidation, IMO.

      • Tzar says:

        I think the defense is coming off looking like a bunch of assholes with these shenanigans. (forgive my French)

      • @Tzar

        Don’t fret. You called it right. It’s what they are.

    • Jun says:

      The only witness credibility damaged is the defendant’s own

      As usual, you Zimmernuts have no proof and are making wild accusations, and pathetic ones at that

      1) You have zero proof of her true identity, therefore, there is no way for you to know her age. She is under witness protection and her identity will not be revealed to the public and there is loads of proof of attempts by your cult to stalk and harass her over the internet.

      2) Although the quality of the recording is bad, her interview with ABC, the original Crump recording, and the state recording tell the same story – that Cheorge Zimmernuts was stalking, chasing, threatening and terrorizing Trayvon Martin, the victim

      So her testimony stays….

      All you have is mere speculation that she may be 18 or 16, which proves, absolutely nothing

      why dont you worry about Cheorge Zimmernuts own testimony, which will surely be impeached and wont be allowed to presented by anyone else but Cheorge Zimmernuts himself?

      • racerrodig says:

        Don’t ya just love it when a Zidiot says “..I’m not on anyone’s side…” then states what is All Z …all the time. As if we buy the garbage in wholesale fashion. Hey unitron…it’s you spew that is like fingernails on a blackboard. What planet are you broadcasting from.

        The only one with Zippity Do Dah as to Credibility is Fogen aka DADD (Dumb Ass Depraved Defendant)

    • gbrbsb says:

      Just because it “looks like” DD was 18 at the time, doesn´t confirm she was. I mean, on what basis and who is saying she was 18? GZ, Mom, & Co or prosecution, Martins or Crump & co? She is certainly being very protected from prying media etc., and quite rightly so, but what is the importance unless proved Crump purposefully misled. Even if 18 it she would have to be immature to date Trayvon who was apparently immature for his 17 years! Girls I believe are generally deemed to mature emotionally and mentally before boys so date above their own age not younger… just my opinion and experience. Whatever DD seems to be painfully shy from the interviews which makes her vulnerable.

      I also agree with Professor´s point below, because if Crump were going to do something like coaxing or grooming, a witness, and to date there is no evidence he did, he would have to be a complete idiot to do it in front of no less than reporters… I mean who would be stupid enough to do that.

    • @0nlyIAU, puleeezzz, you said ‘it looks like she was 18 at the time” where exactly did you see this vision? on omar’s website? in west’s whining? or on some conspiracy theorist’s website?
      i mean age isn’t very hard to confirm since the state has named her as a witness in a high profile murder 2 case that will be followed by millions. Are you suggesting there’s a *birther*issue here??? That maybe she’s faking her birthday?? hmmm can’t trust anyone huh?

      So you think DD’s credibility is at risk because Mr.Crump recorded a conversation without higher tech equipment. He isn’t an audio expert, it’s not his responsibility to provide GZ with anything. GZ can depose her whenever they please, so what’s the problem?

      As far as *your* accusations against Mr.Crump tampering with the tape, i think you should consider what his motive would be to attempt that when another, more technologically sophisticated TV station present? why would he even invite them if he wanted to fake a statement from someone so important to this case?

      Don’t you think that sounds a little stupid?
      you know what, i think your barking up an empty treehouse.

      • gbrbsb says:

        Love your bit about the “empty treehouse”. Methinks you are correct in more ways than one!

      • @ canadian Gbrbsb, i know but damn you & i said the same exact thing!!LOL
        but isn’t it weird, ya know, seeins how you being a canuck and all!LOL
        BTW, is canuck like a derogatory term for Canadian? i ask b/c years ago i *thought* i made it up myself, and i have no idea why…only to hear someone else say it somewhere. my very first room mate, belinda is a canuck! do ya know her? LOLO she ended up moving to alaska- go figure!

      • Jun says:

        They have no proof

        You cant just accuse people without proof

        the fact remains everytime Deedee spoke. the story has been exactly the same

        whether on ABC

        Crump’s tape

        or Bernie’s Tape

        Crump has provided the witnesses to the first tape and does not need to provide anything else

        If the defense wants to hear the absolute original they can depose the witnesses to the tape and play it off the recording device to them during depo but it wouldnt be smart to turn over the device to the defense because they are sheisty and we have proof of that

        LOL at the Tinfoil Hats trying to claim to be objective and want to know what happened but Cheorge’s many foibles with manipulation (proven)are never brought into question yet a mere speculation that Deedee was 18 or Crump means more against their credibility

        This is why she is protected

        Next they will say numbering the witnesses is tampering witnesses ROFL

        So witness 18 is a lie because its not her real name LMAO

      • Malisha says:

        I can just see the new defense forming. The first OLD defense was “Trayvon was a thug.” Then there was the OLD defense called, “George Zimmerman has a Black grampa.” Then there was the famous, “Black Panthers wanted to kill us all!” Then there was, “The police officers are very upset that George Zimmerman was accused of a crime!” And now we have, “Crump is a very bad man.”

        Oh well, if any one of them is proven, that will mean that George is entirely innocent. Of course, if…

      • Jun says:

        LMAO

        How exactly were the cops upset?

        They stated that they felt at the time they did not have enough evidence yet, and they had insufficient evidence at the time to charge Cheorge, Trayvon Martin’s killer and murderer, with a crime

        They get to keep their jobs and Cheorge is in trouble… really does not affect the cops’ feelings at all LOL

        Is Singleton mad? No, she knew Cheorge was a lying piece of crap and an idiot because his story did not even match evidence

      • Malisha says:

        Jun, in answer to “are the cops upset?” I can only say that I remembered from the silly emergency motion filed by O’Mara in open court that he said he deposed some cop who said that the cops were “upset” that George was charged and that some assistant prosecutors felt “frustrated.” My reaction to that was approximately: BOOO HOOOO HOOOO HOOOO oh glub glub blub glubbbb boo HOOOOO boooo hooooooo!

        Or, put more succinctly:

    • gbrbsb says:

      Thanks OIAU, for explanation about settings for emails. I can´t reply where you posted it because the software wants to post as a new entry even though I click reply. I only saw your reply by chance as decided to return here from FL´s latest thread cos Ed seemed about to crash many incoherent rambling comments ago, but doesn´t so the thread ain´t going nowhere!

      Another question, can I do something my side so there is a reply button? I´m new to blogs using my mac for work up till now.

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        The way I am replying to you is that the email that informed me of your post has a “reply” button/link that, when I clicked on it, brought me here and presented me with this text box, and what I type here will, when I click on “Post Comment” be appended to your post.

        Apparently comments more than a couple of levels “into” the nesting (like a reply to a reply to a reply) don’t get a reply button.

        WordPress.com’s comment handling software really isn’t very good.

        unitron

    • leander22 says:

      I think that tempest may grow too large for a teapot before all is said and done.

      It surely will, if you belong to the Treehouse crowd, may I suggest to you that from now on Team Zimmerman will be off on a “Machiavellian” that in the end may be close to, quite possibly even worse in their attempts to shape public perception than the “evil media campaign ‘Machiavellian’ forces” ever were.

      Machiavelli is always about shaping public perception according to your own chosen desire, you can’t just blame his techniques on the side you define as evil. He is always around when you intend to force your perception on the masses.

      They also have to, since they want to revert public opinion to Lee’s or Serino’s statement: There never was probable cause for a prosecution. The only reality that counts from their perspective is the reality of the shooter. The accompanying necessity in this endeavor is to reduce Trayvon to a thug, that had it coming.

      • leander22 says:

        I forgot a word:

        will be off on a “Machiavellian” tangent

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        I’m sure everyone at CTH is, or would be, convinced that I am rabidly anti-Zimmerman and pro-Martin.

        unitron

        • cielo62 says:

          Unitron: pro-Z or anti-z depends on how you treat the known evidence. You don’t have to agree with people here but you must be able to explain how any piece of evidence can be used to support GZs narrative(s). So far, nothing has been found to substantiate the Trayvon Thug scenario, the Beating Head on Concrete scenario likewise is a dud. Much medical and pictorial evidence strongly deny a broken nose. Deedees age is irrelevant as what she shows is a lynchpin to the shooting’s timeline. Plus the fact, corroborated by recorded 911 calls, GZ was clearly the aggressor and in control before the fatal shot. If you can disprove/ support any of these parts, then you will be addressing actual evidence, NOT the rabid screaming at CTH about pings, cell phones or illusions of thug hood.

          Sent from my iPod

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “…you must be able to explain how any piece of evidence can be used to support GZs narrative(s).”

            I consider myself under no such obligation whatsoever, nor do I consider myself under any obligation to choose any side other than the side of figuring out what actually happened.

            “…Deedees age is irrelevant…”

            It’s not the young lady’s age which is in question, it’s whether Crump was honest about it.

            “Plus the fact, corroborated by recorded 911 calls, GZ was clearly the aggressor and in control before the fatal shot.”

            If either party had been in control, there wouldn’t have been a struggle.

            Zimmerman may have been “aggressive” in his attempt to keep Martin in view and track his movements and whereabouts, but which party first laid hands on the other is not known for certain.

            Whether Zimmerman is being completely truthful or not, or whether his memory is faulty or not, does not conclusively prove which party first initiated physical contact.

            I consider “Left handed Zimmerman used his left hand to grab right handed Martin’s right arm to hold him for the police (without bothering to offer any explanation for his actions), at which point Martin used his left fist (the only place on his body, other than the gunshot wound, to show any damage) at the end of his free arm to strike the right hand side of Zimmerman’s nose, which might explain that small area of broken skin to the right of Zimmerman’s nose” a plausible theory of how the struggle started, but since I wasn’t there, it’s only a theory.

            I consider it less likely, but not impossible, that Martin, for whatever reason, struck first without having been touched by Zimmerman.

            I have more trouble with the second scenario, because it seems to me that if Martin was prone to that sort of thing we’d have heard of previous instances by now.

            But teenagers, the males certainly no less than the females, and probably more so, are prone to acting impulsively at times, and teenage males worry about not being seen as tough and manly and don’t necessarily react well when they think someone is challenging that view of themselves, so Martin may have decided he’d had enough of being intimidated by this guy, so I can’t discount the possibility.

            But I wasn’t there, so I don’t know for sure if either or neither of those scenarios is true or close to being true, and so far I haven’t seen enough other evidence to convince me either way.

            And I don’t think anyone else looking at the situation objectively has seen enough other evidence to narrow it down to only one possible explanation, either.

            unitron

          • cielo62 says:

            No unit rob I’m sure you haven’t seen enough evidence. This blog goes back for months with detailed descriptions, photos and videos that I can’t reproduce in one response. Certainly you are under no obligations; this is a public blog. I merely set out the main parameters as I have seen them evolve. There is recorded evidence as to who started the altercation. It’s in GZs original NEN call. Once initial aggressor has been established its really irrelevant whether Martin hit GZ 1st or not. But sine Martin has zero (that is NONE) GZ DNA on his hands or clothes, I would logically conclude Martin did not hit GZ at all.

            Based on what has been ascertained about the character of the 2 involved, it is well documented GZ has rage issues and responds violently to any seeming provocation. Although one 911 call might actually record GZ “interrogating” Martin, maybe one could argue no one was “in control.” Anyway, I’m not an enemy. I’m here to learn and work for justice. I have an opinion. You are welcome to yours as well. But if you float it here, be ready to back it up.

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            Unit is just another Zid from the planet Zidiot. Anyone who feels compelled to speak the way he does and actually sign his moniker at the bottom of every post on an anonymous website, states he has no side and blah, blah, boring blah….has an agenda. In the real world it is called an race baiting hate monger.

          • cielo62 says:

            Racerrodrig- yes I thought Unitron’s name looked familiar but I’m willing to give the benefit of a doubt, especially with my faulty memory. Really, he can be Pro-Z. But like its been said here, use the evidence and convince us our possible scenarios are wrong. To me, no pro-Z advocate will convince me until they can explain the baby scratches on melonhead’s melon head as being produced by a concrete pounding. Well, there are many facts that would need to be explained but really! I get worse scratches medicating my cat!

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            They use that “I examine the facts” which means “My opinions, hopes, desires are used as facts”

            When they say “I don’t have a side” it means “I think you’re stupid enough to believe anything”

            When they say “The state has no case” it means Holy shit…is he f’d, but I love guns and hate n’s so I hope he gets off”

            When they say anything where the phrase “..reasonable doubt..” is used, it means they have no grasp on reality and actually think the jury will say….”well I doubt it happened like it did….exactly…so he’s good to go….”

            Unit makes statements that have these characteristics and I for one “Ain’t fooled”

          • cielo62 says:

            LOL! Well now I am armed with a Zidiot Dictionary. I shall never be fooled again! 🙂

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            No Problem. My wife and son think I should be in comedy. Maybe. I love turning things from the ridiculous (by them) into real world language.

            Some time ago I posted a real world version of the “Zidiot Nation Constitution” on HP. Since they banned me, it’s gone but I can reproduce most of it from memory.

          • Xena says:

            Unit is just another Zid from the planet Zidiot.

            On the right side-bar to this blog are two subject matters “self-defense” and “self-defense SYG Florida.” Anyone reading those entries would not want to argue from the who threw the first punch angle in determining the aggressor.

            Recently, the Dooley case was decided by a jury who found him guilty of manslaughter. Dooley claimed SYG. There were witnesses, including the victim’s daughter, who testified that when Dooley tried walking away, the victim grabbed Dooley’s shoulder and turned him around.

            Why did the jury find Dooley guilty? Because Dooley left his garage, walked across the street, and confronted the victim about words that the victim said to him. Dooley was the initial aggressor.

          • cielo62 says:

            That case (the Dunn case) should have GZ sweating bullets right now. Based on that, and GZs NEN call, we can certainly hope GZs goose is cooked!

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            Fogen…..fuget about it, as the Italians around here say. He’s toast.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            Lampooning someone’s name.

            How mature.

            unitron

          • jm says:

            “Lampooning someone’s name. How mature. unitron”

            Seriously, is that all you have?

          • cielo62 says:

            When you have nuthin’, go for the name-calling. I suppose I’m unpatriotic as well. 🙂

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            I’m the one who coined these names / phrases over the last 8 months on other sites.

            Cheorge
            Schruck
            Kalubb house
            Zidiot
            Zidiot Nation
            Miss Piggy (Shellie)
            Moron O’ Mara
            The Octopus Defense
            The Pit Bull Defense
            The My Brother is a Stupid Idiot Defense
            The Frank Taaffe Made me do it Defense
            The Diaper Defense

            And possibly a few others and this was in response to what the Zidiots call Trayvon, the victim and his parents. Then they went to a full scale verbal assault on the lawyers.

            I have also rewritten the lyrics to several songs to fit the cause here and on other sites.

            The fact that they are gleeful in this defenseless kids death is sickening and we’ve discussed this before.

            If you, unitron, have issue with any sort of name calling, bring it. I have no problem smoking you like I have done to other Zidiots in the past. I have a problem with lying, murdering, racist, hate mongering Morons and those who defend them and make all effort to vilify and demean the victim.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            Are you sure that reacting to what you find objectionable in others by lowering yourself to their level is really the way to go?

            unitron

          • racerrodig says:

            It seems you have a real serious mental issue pal. I’m not the one who lowered to anything. You must be confused here. I’m not the one who initiates an assault….you guys do. Big Difference in the real world and that condescension you exhibit is a real laugh riot.

          • cielo62 says:

            Since he doesn’t live there, visiting ain’t gonna hurt none!

            Sent from my iPod

          • Brown says:

            Boy what a list. The only thing I have started/created was the “follow” in the reply box. 🙂

          • fauxmccoy says:

            i started Blushed-Brown and am quite pleased with it 🙂

          • BlushedBrown says:

            And I use it proudly!!!

          • racerrodig says:

            I like it !!

          • racerrodig says:

            And this is why the Zidiot Nation hates me, as if I actually care about that. When I created the Zidiot Nation Charter, they went haywire.

          • cielo62 says:

            Aw. But WE love you!

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            I wouldn’t want to be anywhere else either !! Love you all.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            And what a good move that was. Often one doesn’t have anything to say when a new article is posted, because they haven’t finished the mail they already have. Yet, we needed a quick easy way to climb aboard so we didn’t miss anything, and “follow” does the trick quite nicely. Thank you.

            I noticed at the hearing that MOM is beginning to choke on his own words. I sense a little twinge of fear creeping in, as he tries to use West’s motions to try and push a theory, knowing that the Judge is well aware of what he’s trying to do. She let’s him get a few words out, before she “slaps” back at him, with “we’ve heard this before” or “take that up with them”, or “I’ve already giving my ruling, there’s enough there for you to proceed on your own”. MOM tries to split hairs, as a way of “proving” there’s something that has not been addressed as far as the Crump recordings.

            MOM knows that Mr. Crump isn’t going to surrender his recording device, nor will he ever be required to by the court. He’s an attorney and has material on it that is covered by A/C-P. All he has to do is ask Mr. Crump to allow him to hear the original, or get provide another copy. The Court will not support his “shotgun” approach with another attorney. So MOM has resorted to pursuing ineffective motions, loaded with stuff he can use only in internet discussions.

            Meanwhile Shelly is gone from view? Well, if she cut GZ’s head for him before he left home, my guess is she’s in serious trouble. Hardly a wonder then that she’s out of sight now. We will see!

          • Brown says:

            @Lonnie,

            Aw schucks, thanks Lonnie! And where is Shellie? Hmmm. I say by the new year things will change. Holidays either bring you together or further apart, ImO.

          • Xena says:

            And possibly a few others and this was in response to what the Zidiots call Trayvon, the victim and his parents. Then they went to a full scale verbal assault on the lawyers.

            Exactly. This is what gets to me. The Zidiots are quick to point out when others use phrases or names for GZ and his Feign Team, but they say nothing to those who call Trayvon “Traycoon, “Trayboon,” “Traythug,” and attorney Crump names such as “Uncle Ben.” On another blog, I often refer to GZ as “Zimmermeth.” A Zidiot accused me of poking fun at people with ADHD. That is not my intent, but in applying the same standard, when they use “Traycoon” and other racially demeaning terms and dog whistles, they must intend it towards all Black people.

          • racerrodig says:

            Thank You…when ever I come up with something it is in response to the racist garbage they spew as a start. I have taken the stance “Game On” at all times since they, to a man, have no problem with the racist, gleeful manner in which they look at this murder.
            God forbid any of us point out anything that hurts his “story” like it appears Fogen was not alone that night. Now there are 2 Dee Dee’s ??

            Game on Zidiots…..Game on.

          • racerrodig says:

            That’s his best. This is all any of them have when backed into a corner. Give me some time and I’ll be able to tell you every sock puppet name he’s used in the past by his prose, illogical thought process and how he reacts to getting smoked.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            And if you come up with anything other than unitron, which I have used online since 1998 everywhere I’ve posted, you’ll have confused me with someone else.

            Too many nutjobs out there and not enough in the budget for multiple full-time round the clock security guards for everyone I care about for me to use my real name, but I’ve always been consistent about being the same person with the same screen name anywhere and everywhere on the internet.

            unitron

            and it’s only where I have to log in via WordPress.com that I “sign” my posts because of being forced to not be able to use it for the account.

          • You said,

            “Too many nutjobs out there and not enough in the budget for multiple full-time round the clock security guards for everyone I care about for me to use my real name, but I’ve always been consistent about being the same person with the same screen name anywhere and everywhere on the internet.”

            Odd, I use my own name and my beliefs and the positions that I advocate and support are far more controversial than anything you’ve written. Yet, I am not afraid.

            Your paranoia appears to be cut from the same cloth as the defendant and his extended family.

            Have you been looking over your shoulder for the New Black Panthers?

            Who are you afraid of and why?

            BTW, I’m not asking you to identify yourself. AFAIAC, you are welcome to remain the only unitron in the universe.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            I didn’t say anything about being afraid for myself.

            unitron

          • So you are saying you use an internet alias because, if you did not, you would have to pay for the security of other people at a cost you cannot afford?

            Sorry, but I do not believe you and I regard your fear as a form of racist paranoia that I have come to associate with right wing crazy people.

          • racerrodig says:

            I second this !

          • For some strange reason, the poor old chap didn’t appear to like where that series of questions was headed.

            What the deuce! I wonder why?

          • racerrodig says:

            I have yet to see a Zidiot who can stand up to being confronted. He cant take the “…insult my way out of this…” stance here, but his transparency was comical nonetheless.

            Beating up on Zidiots……Child’s Play !!

          • racerrodig says:

            Thank You….my name is easy to find and Dino Domingo cyber stalked me and posted lies of all sorts about me on HP. Of course I then found his arrest record, with a little legal help and I didn’t post it all over…..oh my bad….I just did.

            Unitron has very familiar prose form other sites, he’s not kidding anyone. He’s All Z….All the Time.

          • cielo62 says:

            Sorry. My iPod automatically corrects words and I don’t even pay attention anymore. Unitron it is. It’s even now underlining my “wrong” spelling.

            Sent from my iPod

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            Then perhaps I could persuade you to do me the kindness of also not capitalizing me.

            It tickles.

            Perhaps I did you the dis-service of lumping you in with the anti-racists who demonstrate their sensitivity by spelling Zimmerman’s first name in the written form of a faux Latino accent.

            In which case, my apologies.

            unitron

          • cielo62 says:

            Make no mistake: I detest George and his evil. But initials are good enough for me. BTW George’s written pronunciation is based on GZs plosive initial sound speaking pattern. Not meant to be racist name.

            Sent from my iPod

          • You said,

            “Whether Zimmerman is being completely truthful or not, or whether his memory is faulty or not, does not conclusively prove which party first initiated physical contact.”

            This issue is irrelevant under Florida law because there is no question that the defendant provoked the physical confrontation by following Trayvon Martin in a menacing fashion first in a vehicle and then on foot, passing up two opportunities to identify himself.

            He also admitted to shooting Trayvon after he got control of him with a wristlock. Since he admitted to shooting Trayvon to death when he was not in imminent danger of suffering death or serious bodily injury, the questions you raise are all irrelevant.

            Benjamin Crump could be the biigest liar in creation (he isn’t) and Dee Dee could be a figment of his imagination (she isn’t) and the defendant would still be guilty of murder in the second degree.

          • racerrodig says:

            Well stated, all factually correct, and they’ll never get it. From day one we state that nothing exonerates the profiling / insulting / demeaning / following / hunting / stalking / terrorizing / detaining / holding / shooting to death a minor who was just walking home in the rain doing nothing that even come close to be suspicious to any normal person.

            So as you say, if Dee Dee is wrong or Crump doesn’t do what the Zidiots want Big Freaking Deal. What changes words 16 to 54 above. Nothing !! But they’ll never get it because the Zidiots as a whole are racist shit bags. Anyone who supports a racist murderer has some real issues.

          • Xena says:

            I consider myself under no such obligation whatsoever, nor do I consider myself under any obligation to choose any side other than the side of figuring out what actually happened.

            True, but respect should be given to the home of others and those visiting. That doesn’t mean you are obligated but it does mean that if you go in a direction other than that of the blog, it might be disrespectful of others.

            When I first discovered this blog, I went back and read previous posts and comments while lurking on the current post to keep up with comments also. I wanted to see the environment. I wanted to see the focus.

            In the same manner, if someone was to invite me to their home, I would want to know how they conduct their household. If they say to take your shoes off at the door and everyone else visiting does, it would be disrespect for me to tell them I’m not obligated to take off my shoes.

            Here, evidence is discussed. Opinions outside of evidence are shared but generally supported by connecting the dots in evidence.

        • racerrodig says:

          How so ??

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            Mostly because, in addition to an apparent huge disparity in our relative politics (I’m disinclined to indulge in the willing suspension of sanity being practiced by the right wing these days), they, based on the few times I’ve looked at anything there (stuff connected with the Martin-Zimmerman case), all pretty much seem rabidly anti-Martin and pro-Zimmerman, and people out on the extremes never see the center as the center, they see it as the start of the other side, and anything or anyone slightly to their side of the center as still too close to the other side.

            unitron

          • racerrodig says:

            Really………….I don’t believe you at all.

          • The case is not a political question with right, left, and center arguments.

            It is a legal question and the defendant has admitted each and every element of the crime charged.

            Everything else is mere commentary. Interesting in its own right, but irrelevant in the big picture.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            Did you even read the question to which I was replying?

            unitron

          • cielo62 says:

            This IS no “center”, right or left. This is not political! An absolute sociopath killed an unarmed teen! He either murdered Trayvon or not. There is no middle “a little bit pregnant” side if the issue.

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            Thank you, but he’ll never get it.

          • cielo62 says:

            Well unit rob (sorry I mean unitron) has not come back. I guess he didn’t like the rules of the class. 🙂

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            I’m shocked he split when I told him “Bring it” Hmmm, maybe it was my body language…

      • Jun says:

        LMAO Unitron’s obvious bias is fairly easy to dye-teck

        Funny how Crump is not credible or Deedee is not credible or Trayvon but the adult Cheorge with the history of manipulation and lying and scheming and violence is an American decency LOL

      • looneydoone says:

        leander,
        You asked about my screenname earlier
        “Lorna Doone” is a type of cookie produced by Nabisco Corp girls with the name Lorna are often called “cookie”, a nickname I detest..in fact, it makes me *looney*.

    • jm says:

      Unitron says: If it didn’t matter, why not tell the truth about it from the beginning? It brings into question Crump’s credibility and raises the question of about what else might he have not been accurate.”

      Do you have any issues with the discrepancies in the defendant’s, story, for example telling the dispatcher Trayvon ran and changing the story to Trayvon skipping. Does this raise the question of Chorge’s credibility for you? Did Chorge tell the truth from the beginning or did he lie on the Hannity show?

      How about Chorge’s credibility when he schemed with ShelLIE to hide money in his Paypay account to hide from the court?

      Is a liar a liar a liar and can do you trust Chorge’s credibility only part of the time or not at all based on known history of his lies?

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        Do you mean the various holes and inconsistencies in Zimmerman’s various accounts big enough to drive a diesel locomotive through?

        Those discrepancies?

        unitron

        • jm says:

          onlyiamunitron says: “Do you mean the various holes and inconsistencies in Zimmerman’s various accounts big enough to drive a diesel locomotive through?”

          Why yes a person accused of 2nd degree murder can’t afford constant “discrepancies”. In case you forgot, Crump did not commit murder and you would never have heard of him if GZ did not kill Trayvon Martin so what he says is irrelevant to the case. GZ profiled, followed, confronted and killed Trayvon Martin long before Crump’s name came up. Focus.

      • racerrodig says:

        Fogen has credibility problems ?? Holy Smokes…!!

        So does this mean the Martins need a new lawyer ? because a Zidiot named unitron says Mr. Crump has credibility issues. Hell, compared to Mr. “..it’s undisputed my clients nose was broken” Moron O’ Mara, he’s as clean as St. Joseph.

        Some advice to unitron / LJP / newbee or what other names you use elsewhere. Ping This.

        Tell us what altered the events prior to the discovery of Dee Dee’s call that sets your hero free ?????

        There will be a test.

  28. Two sides to a story says:

    Thank you. Your article clarifies the situation and brings up some points I hadn’t considered. So much for all the negative carrying on about Crump over at the Treestump.

    • Malisha says:

      I agree completely. There is no issue. Crump is not on trial; he did not coach DD, she’s probably 16 or 17 and it’s very unlikely she said on the phone, “I’m 18,” and all that tempest in a teapot is just the defense lawyers trying to do more blah blah blah blah because they have nothing better than blah blah blah right now.

      And unless the Angel Gabriel lands on Zimmerman’s head and declares an end to all murder prosecutions in the United States of America until further notice, that’s all they’ll ever have.

      I say, fuck’em, give’m a new teapot to keep their future tempests in. (Make them either red or white.)

    • leander22 says:

      Malisha, West writes this in footnote 2:

      “Witness eight is 18 years old and was 18 at the time of Mr. Crump’s interview of her according to her sworn statement to the prosecutor on April 2, 2012. Her unedited statement to the prosecutor was not released to the defense and only after repeated requests. Her age was edited out of the interview in a previous disclosure.”

      Strictly I don’t care much. I had many younger friends at that age, my favorite cousin is two years younger than me too. During my teens started to choose friends that were interested in the arts. One or two years age difference upwards or downwards was unimportant.

      We seem to be back to what is correct and what is not expectations. The expectation is that a girl is one to two years younger than the boy even at this early age. If it wasn’t a mistake by Crump, it may have been simply the realization the extend to which such a strictly unimportant detail could be misused.

      The problem is, they can use this really irrelevant detail now to taint DeeDee, just as I feared for longer now.

      I can’t stand to read much at TCTH, It starts with the fact that they label everything “discovery/creation” which comes from the family’s side. Same as Diwataman who calls Trayvon’s cell phone “his alleged” cell phone. And got applause from Jeralyn Merrit in this context.

      They also claim a fast perusal tells me, that the time of DeeDee’s cell phone records Pacific not Eastern time. Which may be hopefully wishing since otherwise West would have immediately picked it up and not bothered about getting his hand ideally on Crumps cell phone, footnote no 13:

      To assuage Mr. de la Rionda’s concern about taking Mr. Crump’s “personal property” undersigned offered to buy Mr. Crump a new recording device to replace the one containing the material evidence in a murder prosecution.

      I can’t help, but this sounds like advise from Zimmerman to me. 😉

      • yeah it does sound like gz trying to act big and bad – as if price is no object! we know he felt empowered during the hannity interview, he had a high end lawyer, international attention, *he* was a guest on a ‘big time’ TV show! his smirks at such inappropriate times looks like he’s confident and his grandiose opinion of himself were just reinforced by everyone around him! makes me sick!

        but he’s not smirking much these days. he’s got a totally new attitude. and yeah his lawyers barely looked at him last time in court. that is sooooooo not what was going on before. something is going on with the zimmerlovers, and i think omar is leaving the team. i think west is gonna stay, but omar seems distant, especially with the *new* begsite under new management?? gz is not allowed to have a bank account. so he has to receive cash only- or i guess he could have a paypal debit card? is that considered a bank account i wonder… i’d like to know how the money is handled…

        • jm says:

          Shannon says: “but he’s not smirking much these days. he’s got a totally new attitude. and yeah his lawyers barely looked at him last time in court. that is sooooooo not what was going on before.”

          I love Chorge’s new look and attitude. It’s as if reality is setting in and he is eating his way to oblivion. And at the first hearings MOM seemed like BFF. Now it looks like MOM is embarrassed at the sight of Chorge.

          I think the new “begsite” will be run by RZ, Jr as a payback to his PR BS media tour, who will give GZ cash and pay his bills. Hopefully this begsite will not generate income GZ hopes and the sale of his autograph is one huge failure.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            i am not sure when the ‘chorge’ name began … but i have been thinking of him as ‘gorge’ since his last court appearance 😉

          • racerrodig says:

            Months ago I stated “Cheorge – Schruck & Kalubb house” from his slurred NEN call.

            I also do the scripts with

            GZ “…..um,…” since he “um’s” a lot.

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