Zimmerman: Once Upon a Midnight Dreary While I Pondered Weak and Weary

Much of the background noise during the NEN call is unintelligible, but I heard one statement clearly.

“My keys are in the truck.” George Zimmerman was out of his truck when he said this to someone.

I also heard what sounded to me like racking his gun to chamber a round, just before he says, “Zimmerman.”

I do not believe anyone would get out of their vehicle to chase a potential burglar and leave their keys in it unattended. For example, what happens if that someone doubles back and steals the vehicle?

No, that never made sense to me.

That led me to think that someone was in the truck or George Zimmerman wanted someone to use his truck.

Keeping in mind that GZ lies all the time, he did say that he and Shellie customarily shopped on Sunday night for groceries for the coming week and that he was on the way to do that when he spotted TM.

Could Shellie have been in the truck?

Probably not, because I think we would have heard her objecting to him getting out of the truck to follow Trayvon Martin.

That means he may have wanted someone who lived nearby to use his truck or else someone else got out of the truck with him and accompanied him a short distance before they decided to separate.

Apparently, TM did not mention seeing more than one person to Dee Dee, but he might not have been able to see anyone inside the vehicle after dark, particularly if the windows were tinted, the headlights were on, and he was in front of the vehicle looking back at it. Even from the side, a passenger may not have been visible.

The next question is to whom would GZ have made this statement while he was hunting TM?

Where was Frank Taffee?

He did not live nearby, but GZ might have picked him up, if Taffee had called him to tip him off about a potentially suspicious stranger entering the neighborhood from the street using the cut-through that passed by his townhouse.

What about the curious story recounted and later retracted by W6 (John Doe), that TM was on top of GZ raining down blows MMA style? That is not the sort of activity that someone is likely to innocently confuse with some other sort of activity, especially from close range illuminated by a porch light that he always left on.

Nope, he made that up. He lied and we know he lied because GZ did not have the wounds one would expect to see, if that happened.

Why did he lie?

We are missing GZ’s cell phone records that would show, if he called anyone or anyone called him before and after he called NEN.

GZ seemed distracted toward the end of the NEN call when he suddenly suggested the dispatcher have the officer en route call him when he arrived in the neighborhood. I do not believe there is any doubt that this change of plan meant GZ intended to hunt down TM and prevent him from getting away before the officer arrived.

Did someone else go directly to the rear entrance and start working his way back from there toward RVC and possibly signal “all clear” up to GZ standing at the cut-through sidewalk and RVC?

Did both then move to the N and S ends of the green space between the back sides of the two rows of townhouses and start approaching each other looking for TM?

Was GZ coordinating actions with this person while talking on his cell phone just before he saw TM?

Did he receive a call from someone, possibly W6, who told him TM was in his backyard or nearby?

Did TM suddenly attempt to make a break for it as GZ approached him?

Did GZ have a gun in his hand or was he reaching for it when TM ran? Might that have been what caused him to run?

If I were GZ and working alone, I would have driven directly to the rear entrance and parked my vehicle. Then I would have started working my way back from there confident that I had sealed off the escape route from the neighborhood.

There were two avenues of escape to the rear entrance, however. One was via RVC and the other one was between the two rows of townhouses. I could not cover both, so I would have had to wait near the rear entrance where I could see anyone who attempted to escape the neighborhood via that route.

When I ask myself why GZ went all the way to RVC supposedly looking for an address that he never gave to the dispatcher and why he waited around in the vicinity of the T intersection chatting with the dispatcher on the NEN, instead of proceeding directly to the rear entrance, the answer that immediately comes to mind is that someone else already was down there and he knew it because he ended his call with the dispatcher to talk to his confederate on the cell phone.

If I’m right, the police have the phone records, they know who the second person was and this would be one of the facts that they probably would withhold until the last possible moment for maximum strategic value.

At least that is what I would do.

Now whom might that person have been?

I’ll hazard a guess that, if it was not Frank Taffee, who may have accompanied him in the vehicle and then on foot for a short distance before separating to return to the vehicle and cut-off a possible escape at the rear entrance, it was the first person who arrived at the crime scene carrying a flashlight and a cell phone with which he took a photo of the back of GZ’s head.

Consider the following question: Of all the things you might do when you first came upon the scene of a shooting, including checking the victim for signs of life, administering CPR, calling 911, etc., what priority would you assign to taking a photograph of the back of George Zimmerman’s head?

Now consider that flashlight and key chain up near the T intersection. Could that have been the keys to which GZ referred earlier? Did the someone he spoke to get in his truck and drive it to the back entrance, park it there, lock it, pocket the keys, and start working his way north?

Did he surreptitiously drop the keys where they were subsequently found and switch the light on to make sure they were found?

I pose these questions because they keep rolling around in my head disturbing my sleep.

What do y’all think?

Note: The title is from The Raven by Edgar Allan Poe

743 Responses to Zimmerman: Once Upon a Midnight Dreary While I Pondered Weak and Weary

  1. Lonnie Starr says:

    I just noticed a funny thing about wordpress. The mixed up thread about the GSR. It looks like after we’ve resolved the issue, we go back to arguing the matter again, from the order the posts are in.

    I guess this is because some people are using the reply button on site here, while others (like me) are using the comment button we get in the email. WordPress isn’t designed to get these posts in the right order, since it tries to align post, that are written using the email button, with the one that the email replies to. But, since the email reply can come back later, after people have used the on site button to write, the order gets munged. So that now our posts raising the questions about GSR are preceded by our posts declaring the matter resolved.

    It makes reading the board posts on site a bit confusing. We’ll have to read up thread a few posts before using a reply button on site.
    Maybe this warrants a standing caution of some kind?

  2. bets says:

    at 2:32 in the first video there are questions about the background noise. How about windshield wipers?

  3. sjackson says:

    I dont know if anyone has caught this “slip up” yet but im just now catching it. As i was looking at one of the re-enactment videos on YouTube uploaded by teeslaw, at the beginning when gz is by frank’s house. When he’s describing what tm was doing , right as they where pulling away from FT house gz says tm is “just looking around” then he say “to see who else” then he quickly says he dont know why tm was just looking about. So could tm have seen someone was with gz? I went over a few of the re enactment videos and its clear in this one. Its George zimmerman’s re-enactment vs. The world pt 1.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      Yes another GZ slip …to see who was.. just another one of the reasons I truly believe that GZ did not act alone that night. He has had a few slips of the tongue along the way.

  4. RNSONE says:

    Many gun owners when carrying a semi-automatic hand gun tend to keep the chamber empty when walking around with it.Its until they’re ready to use it is when they will rack a round into the chamber.The reasoning behind this is in case someone manages to get your gun away from you,you know they would have to rack it before they can use it against you.This gives you a second or two to try to get it back.I think GZ did rack it on the NEN call as he was ready to use it,believing he was following a criminal.I believe he had it out.The question I have is if I’m right why didn’t TM relay that to DD on the call? Maybe he didn’t see it right away?

    • boar_d_laze says:

      I hate to do gun stuff.

      The pistol Mr. Zimmerman carried was a DAO (double action only). When it was recovered by the police the magazine was full but for one cartridge and there was a cartridge in the chamber.

      Unless Mr. Zimmerman reloaded after the shooting, he came to it with a full clip plus “one in the pipe.” In order to load a gun that way, the user puts a loaded clip in the handle, racks the slide to get a cartridge in the chamber, removes the magazine from the gun, fully loads it, and returns it.

      Because the gun is DAO, once loaded with a cartridge in the chamber, it did not need to be cocked by racking the slide. A DAO is cocked by pulling the first half of the trigger pull.

      Loading a DAO semi with a full clip and another round in the chamber is an awkward task if done without a good place to hold everything while you move the various bits around and fiddle with them. It’s not a thing usually done on the move, for instance while getting out of a truck to pursue someone.

      I agree that the tape “sounds like” a gun being cocked, and the sound is highly evocative. However “sounds like” and what likely and/or actually happened are two different things.

  5. gbrbsb says:

    Professor, I’m so sorry! I don’t know how, but I accidentally just posted a long text containing thoughts and replies to several comments I was ruminating on, all disconnected, unfinished and some even superseded, and most certainly not for posting! It was something to do with “cut and paste” when I was transferring it to a word doc so as to post one small reply. Please can it be deleted or does the software or whatever oblige me to live with it into posterity… how embarrasing!

    • Ms Cielo Perdomo says:

      Fear not! It was all grand to read! Although as a Colombian descendent I rather object to putting down our Spanish language “purity”.  🙂


      • gbrbsb says:

        Thanks for that… Cielo! I was feeling pretty stupid!

        I didn’t mean to “put down” any accent or its purity. By “pure” I meant the language as imported with Colon and Co., but obviously in each country it evolved and some stuck more to the original than even Spain. I agree, Colombian is also considered to be one of the purist as well as being one of, if not the, prettiest… hope that has made it better.

      • No offense taken. Thanks for participating. As many have said, we discuss what comes from our thoughts. I find this site the best EVER for intelligent discussion and civility.

  6. ziibiqwa says:

    @looneydoone……..”We indigenous to the Americas (North, Central and South) refer to you as “squatters”. How do you like them apples ??”


    • looneydoone says:

      We refer to non Indigenous (non Amerindian) people in the America’s as “squatters” rather than “settlers” ,”Immigrants” or the “descendants” of those who do not carry Indigenous DNA (primarily Euro’s)

    • looneydoone says:


      You’re most welcome 😉

  7. looneydoone says:

    The Inuit and some of the northern tribes migrated across the Bering Strait

    The remainder of we Amerindians did not. We have been in the America’s many thousands of years longer than those in the north

    WE don’t care what your anthropologists “suggest”

    • lynp says:

      In Alaska, the natives are called Inuit.
      In Canada, Aboriginals.
      In North America, Native American.
      In Central and South America, Amerindians.
      They all descend from the Asian Race that crossed the Bering Straits something like 10,000 years ago.
      They all carry the same physical traits of straight black hair, eye fold, flat noses and medium toned skin.
      The DNA is similar also. Google is our friend and all this can be “researched”.
      Hispanic is becoming the word for those of the native people of Amerindian descent from Central and South America but started off as “those coming from the Spanish Speaking communities below the American Border. Whether folk care or not, the Anthropologists are the ones in the know and of course, the DNA folk.

      • looneydoone says:

        “”In Alaska, the natives are called Inuit”
        “In Canada, aboriginals”
        “In North America, Native Americans”
        “In Central and South America, Amerindians”

        Those are names *you’ve* given to the original inhabitants of these lands…we are ALL “Amerindian”

        We indigenous to the Americas (North, Central and South) refer to you as “squatters”. How do you like them apples ??

      • lynp says:

        I don’t have a problem with that. In fact, I believe that Native Americans or Amerindians have been protecting America since 1492.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          Sorry – Canada has Aboriginals AND Inuit in the Northern regions.
          Never have heard an Aboriginal or Inuit in Canada call anyone a squatter. Everyone has come from somewhere, so indigenous is not exactly the term you should use to define yourself and separating yourself from your native brothers and sisters in the North.

  8. lynp says:

    George and Robert Zimmerman Jr look exactly alike. It is not a black vs white issue but a black vs hispanic issue. Seeing is believing.

    • ajamazin says:

      HISPANIC IS NOT A RACE OR A COLOR. [write it on the palm of your hand]

      So you think Trayvon gave George a language test  before George killed him?

    • ajamazin says:

      How many times do I have to explain to the idiot lynp that Hispanic is not a race?

      >________________________________ > From: Frederick Leatherman Law Blog >To: aja_young@ymail.com >Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 10:08 PM >Subject: [New comment] Zimmerman: Once Upon a Midnight Dreary While I Pondered Weak and Weary > > > WordPress.com >lynp commented: “George and Robert Zimmerman Jr look exactly alike. It is not a black vs white issue but a black vs hispanic issue. Seeing is believing.” >

      • Cielo says:

        She’ll get it when the rest of America gets it, which will probably be “never”. I, too, correct ad nauseum but to no avail.

        Sent from my iPod

  9. CherokeeNative says:

    Shall we take wagers on whether O’Mara’s Writ will be summarily denied without the COA seeking further briefing? LOL As I see it, if the COA takes this Writ up for consideration, it will be to clarify Judge Lester’s confusion contained in his footnote regarding whether or not O’Mara’s motion to recuse should be looked at as his first or second motion – Otherise, it will be summarily denied. JMHO

  10. TruthBTold says:


    Aussie is not referring to links for this whole lineage discussion that is going on, but references for your comment about Judge Lester’s decisions being overturned on appeal. A few people have asked you to expand on your comment.

    • ajamazin says:

      Good grief!

      Do you record a link for every fact you read and remember? I don’t.

      When Lester was appointed, I did  research on him –  family, educational, and career background.

      I read an article on circuit judges in Florida with a  notable numbers of decisions being reversed on appeal. Lester was included.

      [ Oddly enough, Lester and O’Mara were co-defendants in a   case filed under civil rights violations in which the plaintiff was a serial filer of frivolous motions.]   


      • aussie says:

        No but maybe you COULD say “I did some research on him when he was appointed and if I recall about 60% of his cases….. or he had the highest % of appeals……” or whatever.

        “Going on how many overturns he has…” is okay once that is accepted/common knowledge in the room.

        • ajamazin says:


          “”Going on how many overturns he has…” is okay once that is accepted/common knowledge in the room.”

          If you did your homework, you would know about Lester.

          Far too many accept what is published in the media and do no research.


      • lynp says:

        My interest in Judge Lester could not be statistically less significant – that includes his family and career. No doubt we can all google, oops “research” with the best of them.
        None of those Zimmerman links worked, however, considering the obvious latino/hispanic/Mestizo traits the sibling and mother Gladys have, paraphrasing Goucho Marx “Are you gonna believe me or your own lying eyes”?

      • aussie says:

        ajamazin I do not have to do homework.

        You have to back up what you’re saying, if you make statements others don’t know about. Stop playing Mystery Woman and tossing in unsubstantiated morsels and expect US to check it out. You say it, you back it. That’s the rules of the evidence game.

        Once something is common knowledge in the group, it may be referred to in shorthand, eg it’s ok to say “he said to Singleton” without giving the page number in the evidence dump. But only because everyone by now knows who Singleton is and when GZ spoke to her.

      • aussie says:


        Ah, “scat” now is it? when you put up BS and refuse to back it up?

        The Maria Cristina DIAGO BRULL (Mali) you claim is George and Rob Jnrs real mother had a daughter and a son from her first marriage, ended in 1983, before George was born. Her next marriage was in 1990.


        Are you suggesting these two sons were out of wedlock? and do you have the slightest evidence for it? Or do you just pluck things out of thin air based on some resemblance of names?


        Really, the Zimmerman family tree is not of great relevance here.

        What IS relevant is your claiming to have important information, based on totally sloppy guesswork. Then refusing to spell it out or back it up with links that actually show what you are claiming.

        And then turning personal and telling people to “scat” when they call you on it.

        You used to have some good and relevant posts. Sadly it seems you are well down the path to becoming a troll. Please turn back before it is too late.

        • TruthBTold says:

          @ aussie,

          Totally agree about the Zimmerman family tree not being relevant. It went on long enough.

        • ajamazin says:


          You have misrepresented my statements and personal attacked me.

          >________________________________ > From: Frederick Leatherman Law Blog >To: aja_young@ymail.com >Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 2:09 AM >Subject: [New comment] Zimmerman: Once Upon a Midnight Dreary While I Pondered Weak and Weary > > > WordPress.com >aussie commented: “ajamazin, Ah, “scat” now is it? when you put up BS and refuse to back it up? The Maria Cristina DIAGO BRULL (Mali) you claim is George and Rob Jnrs real mother had a daughter and a son from her first marriage, ended in 1983, before George was bo” >

  11. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    True conversation? No kidding! GrannyStandingforTruth<–clamping her mouth shut because the truth I stand for would have him and his client in tears begging for forgiveness.

    Off topic, would any of y'all know why my smilie face is not showing up like it did in the beginning like the smilie face on TruthBTold comment? I miss it. ( :

    • Dave says:

      Very interesting. According to this, GZ’s FATHER, Roberto (Rob) Zimmerman, was born in Peru in 1949 apparently when the latter’s father was an official at the US Embassy. As such he would have been born a US citizen with no claim to Peruvian citizenship. There’s very little info on GZ’s mother’s background beyond the fact that she was born in Barcelona.

  12. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    “Lester’s rhetoric played well with Trayvon supporters,
    but will prove detrimental to the State’s case”

    How will it be detrimental to the State’s case?

  13. TruthBTold says:

    LOL @ boar,

    You are funny.

    SN: Professor we need a new thread. This one is getting quite lengthy :).

  14. TruthBTold says:


    You are making too much sense. I tell ya. They want people to feel sorry for GZ by using certain type of language and hope that people will start raining dollars on them. Pathetic.

  15. O’Mara’s press conference is to announce that he is filing for a writ of prohibition in the Court of Appeals to prohibit Judge Lester from acting further in the case.

    In effect, this is his appeal from Judge Lester’s denial of his motion to disqualify Judge Lester.

    Go here for live stream:


    • TruthBTold says:

      Thank you Professor. Wow, that was anti-climatic.Press conference? Really? They are seriously going after this judge *quizzical look* Hmmm……

    • ajamazin says:


      In reviewing the percentage of Lester’s decisions overturn on appeal, I am not surprised.

      • Ms Cielo Perdomo says:

        Don’t keep us guessing… HOW many of his rulings are overturned?


      • boar_d_laze says:

        What percentage of Lester’s decisions have been overturned?

      • aussie says:

        may I ask you please to give FACTS? don’t just drop in a statement without any backup. If you know the percentage please state it with links or sources. If you don’t know, or won’t say, it makes you sound like you are just sniping.
        The same when posting links to interviews with someone called Zimmerman, please explain the relationship and the relevance.

        • ajamazin says:

          Robert W. Zimmermann and Silvia Brull Baralt are the parents of  Robert J. Zimmerman [the indigent, disabled Nam vet].

          Consequently, George is a grandson of Robert W. Zimmermann  and Silvia Brull Baralt. 


          I am willing to expand on this if you accept that the naming  conventions used in Spain and among the elite Cuban immigrants are unlike those in the US.

          Alternately, familiarize yourself with the naming conventions  used in Spain.

          Names used by some who were born out of country, or  used when living abroad, or who have family roots in a foreign  country will not necessarily agree with the names on Social Security  records or birth certificates.


      • aussie says:

        Thank you ajamazin.

        That link is dead.

        Did it explain about “not natural children” and so on, as well?

        If Gladys was born in Barcelona how does that fit with the “sister of Peruvian Army comrade” meeting??

        Where’s the line connection that Robert W. Zimmermann (who I will take your word was mentioned in that link) with the Robert W. Zimmermann in the oral history interview?

        How many Robert W. Zimmermanns are there in the United States? (hint 3.4 million Google hits, can’t be just 3 or 4 of them).

        Seriously, if you’ve done some work digging things up, don’t be shy, please share. This making unsourced announcements is a worry, on a blog that is supposedly relying on evidence. .

        • ajamazin says:


          Odd, that you can not view my links.

          Let’s try this! 


          Ines TELL DE PALLEJA * Born: Barcelona, Spain * Marriage: Roberto (Rob) ZIMMERMANN BRULL on 21 Jun 1975 in San Miquel D’olerdola, Barcelona, España Family Links Spouses/Children:  Roberto (Rob) ZIMMERMANN BRULL 

          * Beatriz ZIMMERMANN TELL+ Ines married Roberto (Rob) ZIMMERMANN BRULL, son of Robert ZIMMERMANN BECKER and Sylvia BRULL BARALT, on 21 Jun 1975 in San Miquel D’olerdola, Barcelona, España. (Roberto (Rob) ZIMMERMANN BRULL was born in 1949 in Lima, Peru.) 


          Roberto (Rob) ZIMMERMANN BRULL * Born: 1949, Lima, Peru * Marriage: Ines TELL DE PALLEJA on 21 Jun 1975 in San Miquel D’olerdola, Barcelona, España

          Family Links Family Links 

          Spouses/Children:  Ines TELL DE PALLEJA 

          * Beatriz ZIMMERMANN TELL+

          Roberto married Ines TELL DE PALLEJA, daughter of Unknown and Unknown, on 21 Jun 1975 in San Miquel D’olerdola, Barcelona, España. (Ines TELL DE PALLEJA was born in Barcelona, Spain.)

          GEORGE ZIMMERMAN’S PATERNAL GRANDMOTHERSylvia BRULL BARALT * Born: 14 Apr 1919, Washington, DC, United States Of America * Marriage: Robert ZIMMERMANN BECKER on 27 Dec 1947 in Ottawa, Canada * Died: Dec 2001, Washington, DC, United States Of America at age 82 * Family Links Spouses/Children:  Robert ZIMMERMANN BECKER 

          * Roberto (Rob) ZIMMERMANN BRULL+ * Philip ZIMMERMANN BRULL * Mark ZIMMERMANN BRULL * Michael ZIMMERMANN BRULL Sylvia married Robert ZIMMERMANN BECKER, son of Unknown and Unknown, on 27 Dec 1947 in Ottawa, Canada. (Robert ZIMMERMANN BECKER was born on 8 Feb 1919 in Chicago, Cook County, Illinois and died on 5 Mar 1999 in Washington, DC, USA.) 


          • Patricia says:

            OK, got it – despite marriage locales and birthplaces due to diplomatic postings of parents, GZ’s father is half “midwestern US” and half Cuban. GZ’s mother is from Barcelona (Spain, although they are assertive in that region that they are Catalonian.)

            Thus GZ is one quarter US-midwestern, one quarter Cuban and half European Spanish. Hmmm – I always thought hybridization improved an organism. Just didn’t work in GZ’s sorry case. Pity.

            Doesn’t look like there’s some foreign locale that would welcome an escaped GZ as the prodigal son as long as he had a cache of donated dollars. That’s what I was looking for.


          • ajamazin says:


            George and Robbie Jr. are not the Zimmerman’s biological  children.

            That explains why they bear no resemblance to Robert and ” Gladys”.

      • aussie says:

        Sorry to be obtuse about this, but
        if Robert (GZ father) had ONE child with his first wife
        and the boys are not HIS biological children, and NOT the children of Gladys, then WHOSE ARE THEY? they can’t be earlier children of the first wife as they are younger than the one child he had with her.
        And who is the Florida resident half-sister, if the one with the first wife (Beatriz) went off to get married in Greece?

        Any chance of making a proper genealogical family tree type illustration of this please?

        • ajamazin says:


          What first wife?

          Robert J. Zimmerman had only 1 wife.



          Ines TELL DE PALLEJA * Born: Barcelona, Spain * Marriage: Roberto (Rob) ZIMMERMANN BRULL on 21 Jun 1975 in San Miquel D’olerdola, Barcelona, España Ines married Roberto (Rob) ZIMMERMANN BRULL, son of Robert ZIMMERMANN BECKER and Sylvia BRULL BARALT, on 21 Jun 1975 in San Miquel D’olerdola, Barcelona, España. (Roberto (Rob) ZIMMERMANN BRULL was born in 1949 in Lima, Peru.) 

          Family Links Spouses/Children:  Roberto (Rob) ZIMMERMANN BRULL 

          * Beatriz ZIMMERMANN TELL+


          George and Rob are the offspring of   María Cristina DIAGO BRULL (Mali) * Born: 14 Jan 1952, Bruselas, Bélgica * Marriage (1): Guillermo GALMES CEREZO DE LUNA on 20 Apr 1978 * Marriage (2): Félix VALDÉS VALENTÍN-GAMAZO on 27 Jul 1990 in Madrid, Madrid, España who married twice. María married Guillermo GALMES CEREZO DE LUNA on 20 Apr 1978. The marriage ended in divorciado in 1983. (Guillermo GALMES CEREZO DE LUNA was born in España.)

          María next married Félix VALDÉS VALENTÍN-GAMAZO on 27 Jul 1990 in Madrid, Madrid, España. (Félix VALDÉS VALENTÍN-GAMAZO was born on 15 Nov 1951 in España.)

          María Cristina DIAGO BRULL (Mali) is the daughter of Cristina BRULL BARALT who is a sister of Silvia BRULL BARALT, who married  Robert W. ZIMMERMANN BECKER on 27 Dec 1947 in Ottawa, Canadá. We know Cristina BRULL BARALT as Grandmother ‘Cristina’ who lives with the ZIMMERMANN Family! DO YOU NOW UNDERSTAND WHY GEORGE IS SO CLOSE TO CRISTINA?

        • ajamazin says:


          My reply is pending moderation.
          My reply will explain why George is so close to his
          grandmother Cristina.

          Cristina is actually the sister of Robert J. Zimmerman’s
          mother, Silvia.

          Cristina is not a blood relation of Gladys [Ines], but
          rather of Zimmerman.

          Why do you accept the narrative told in the MSM?

      • boar_d_laze says:

        I’m struck by how little I care about Mr. Zimmerman’s family tree.

        I’m also confused why someone from Barcelona would self identify as Catalan. That’s as silly as someone from Los Angeles insisting she’s Californian.

        • ajamazin says:


          The Zimmerman family’s narrative can be proven false by  documentation on various Spanish websites.

          Questions should naturally arise why Robert Sr. has falsified  the family history and arouses curiosity if this has a bearing on this case.

          This cause struck me immediately as quite odd. Nothing about it makes sense    If you review by comments with links, you will see, as an example, that George and Robert Jr. are not the biological sons of Gladys and Robert Sr. and learn that Cristina is not a blood relation of Gladys.

          Rather Cristina is the aunt of Robert Sr. and the biological grandmother of George and Robert Jr. . [This should explain George’s attachment to Cristina.]

          Robert Sr. , George and Robert Jr. are direct descendants 

          of Adelaida Baralt Zacharie [affectionately known to Cubans as Adelita, friend of Jose Marti], and Mariano Brull Caballero, renown Cuban poet and Cuban diplomat. During WWII, he had some rather interesting assignments.

          And Robert J. Zimmerman’s father was Robert W. Zimmerman, who was stationed at US embassies throughout the world, His work in the foreign service provided his ‘official cover’ as a CIA agent. Robert J. Zimmerman followed in his father’s footstep.


          Now does any of this have a bearing on the case? I do not know, but I think it would be unwise to disregard the possibility. 

          >________________________________ > From: Frederick Leatherman Law Blog >To: aja_young@ymail.com >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 10:31 AM >Subject: [New comment] Zimmerman: Once Upon a Midnight Dreary While I Pondered Weak and Weary > > > WordPress.com >boar_d_laze commented: “I’m struck by how little I care about Mr. Zimmerman’s family tree. I’m also confused why someone from Barcelona would self identify as Catalan. That’s as silly as someone from Los Angeles insisting she’s Californian.” >

      • aussie says:

        Ajamazin, all the complication to finally get to this:
        you are saying George and Robert Jnr are the sons of Robert Snrs cousin Maria, right? whose mother (Rob snr’s aunt) lived with them qua grandmother?

        Wouldn’t it have been easier to say so instead of going on about “not his biological children” without ever until now mentioning the Maria Diago Brull connection????

        Do you have any proposed/provable/likely scenario to explain how and when this arrangement came about?

    • ajamazin says:

      I believe Lester will be forced to recuse himself.

      Lester’s rhetoric played well with Trayvon supporters,
      but will prove detrimental to the State’s case , I fear.

      2 judges have been eliminated.
      Who is next in rotation?

      • ks says:

        Why? You still have to have a legal basis to ask a judge to recuse himself/herself. IMO, neither the judge’s remarks nor what the defense presented in their first removal request come close to meeting that burden.

        Also, how would JL’s remarks prove detrimental to the State’s case? That doesn’t seem to follow. They are not evidence and are immaterial to the State’s case.

        IMO, what this is all about is playing for time and, of course, money though you think that O’Mara would get it by now that the longer he leaves GZ to his own devices, the worst his case gets.

      • boar_d_laze says:

        Wanna bet?

        What “rhetoric” should Lester have used?

        “George is a fine fellow, as honest as honest can be. Nevertheless, I feel compelled to raise his bail even though he didn’t lie but out of fear, naivete and general bonhomie mistakenly, with the talented and lovely Mrs. Zimmerman, accidentally and with no ill intent whatsoever, managed to hide $150,000 from the court.

        “He just needs to be more careful.

        “I promise on my honor to believe every word the man says about anything from now on, because — really — why not?”

      • Ms Cielo Perdomo says:

        Why? He didn’t actually SAY anything that wasn’t factual. Judges always speak their minds and what he said was rather mild if ticked off. You would have to be Mother Theresa to see anything that remotely looks abusive. And OF COURSE once you’ve been caught in a lie, you will be embarassed! As for Judge Lester conjecturing WHY he pulled bond is within his rights to suppose and be suspicious of a flight risk! I don’t see Judge Lester being forced to recuse himself. And if he does, I don’t see any guarantee that a worse judge won’t take his place.


      • ajamazin says:


        Yes, I will bet you a gourmet dinner!

        Lester shouted when a whisper would have sufficed.

    • Mike S says:

      O’Mara is still saying some strange things on this case. According to one report today:

      “He really has to live as a hermit, unfortunately,” O’Mara said Zimmerman, citing the fact that Zimmerman was threatened at the beginning of the case.

      “If we had a true conversation,” regarding the night Martin died and Zimmerman’s case, the defense would be in a “much different position in this case,” O’Mara said.

      I can’t believe O’Mara is still playing on the Zimmerman-feeling-threatened card. As for the next line – I’m not really sure what this “if we had a true conversation” stuff is about.

      • aussie says:

        Haha, true conversation means if people like us wouldn’t be pulling poor George’s story to pieces all the time.

        Stories, sorry.

      • ks says:

        O’Mara seems to be surprisingly tone deaf. The donations look to have pretty much dried up and the old dog whistles aren’t going to work anymore. “Live as a hermit”? How many “hermits” give exclusive interviews to SH? Also, if GZ’s is living like a “hermit”, it’s due to the sundown curfew, travel restriction and electronic monitoring which, frankly, are his own fault.

        • ajamazin says:

          Unfortunately, the majority of Americans would disagree with you.

          Frankly, I am stunned by people who believe in the  right to carry a gun and exercise their own judgement  in killing others.

          And I am shocked that so many see this as black versus white issue. 


    • boar_d_laze says:

      Going to the DQ well a second time with a petition for a Writ can have some negative consequences for the defense in terms of good will and credibility both with the trial and appellate courts.

      IMO, they should have either let it go or waited until Lester actually did something which showed bias, as opposed to characterizing Mr. Zimmerman’s disingenuous attempt at manipulation as a disingenuous attempt at manipulation.

      It’s crystal clear that Mr. Zimmerman attempted to deceive the court at the first bail hearing by suborning perjury from Mrs. Zimmerman.

      The court was correct to raise Mr. Zimmerman’s bail because he had hidden money from the court in an apparent attempt to preserve an option to flee; correct not to consider evidence of self defense at the second bail hearing (because it wasn’t an Arthur hearing); and correct to deem the State’s case as “strong” in the Arthur hearing, because the case had made it’s prima facie case, and the defense presented no substantial evidence to either refute or show justification beyond making the claim.

      In responding to the motion for reconsideration, the court had to give its reasons for ruling as it did, and those reasons were completely in keeping with the evidence educed.

      Thus, it is difficult to see how an appellate court would DQ a trial judge on the bases claimed in the Mo to DQ.

      I really hate to say it, but I don’t see a good reason for petitioning other than to preserve their funding base as a proactive excuse if and when they lose the Motion for Immunity.

      I’m going to put my respect for Mr. O’Mara on hold, until I’ve had a chance to read the petition. It will be interesting to read the traverse as well. So far, the State’s written submissions have been unimpressive. Let’s hope they take the time to do better.

  16. On the conservativetreehouse.com today:

    According to local news sources in Sanford, FL, the Mark O’Mara Legal team has announced they will issue a statement within the hour and hold a Press Conference this afternoon. No details were provided as to the topic or content.

  17. TruthBTold says:

    Regarding a possible TM 911 call, I strongly believe to be a fake. That story did not gain much traction and was eventually scrapped. Not only that, TM was on the phone with DeeDee at the time. I believe GZ’s call ended around 7:15 or so, TM’s ended around 7:16 or so, and the police were on the scene around 7:17 or so. I know there seems to be some discrepancies with time, but it doesn’t appear to have been much time from TM’s disconnected call to the shooting. Also, the way things appeared to have escalated the same way I don’t believe GZ was reaching for his phone to call 911, I don’t believe TM would have been thinking to call 911 either. The circumstances doesn’t seem to have allowed for that type of action. Just my opinion.

  18. Obwon says:

    Please tell me it isn’t so, that GZ was on his way to the store, with no cash or credit cards? To do his weekly shopping?

    • boar_d_laze says:

      Alas, it must be said.

      • Obwon says:

        Then he had not left his house on a shopping trip at all! He left his wife –who, no doubt, was waiting for this trip to happen — unprepared to shop at all.

        Hardly a wonder, then, that an alternative reason for him leaving his house and wandering the RATL, appears. Meaning that once the shopping trip excuse is debunked, the only thing left is the hunt.

        If he left his house with the hunt as his reason for departing there, then he had to have been informed that there was “prey” to be had.
        Since he could not see either area traversed by TM from his house. Someone had to convey that information to him. Otherwise, his weekly shopping trip would have been the only thing on his schedule.

        Now, that puts him on NW duty and on an illegal NW patrol. Meaning that he was breaking the rules he had agreed to abide by, the moment he left his house. There was no crime committed, so there was no one to apprehend, there was no reason for him to search for or follow anyone, and he’d agreed not so to do.

        The NSA advises that breaches of their rules can have disastrous results, and it did!

    • CherokeeNative says:

      GZ had two quarters in a plastic sandwich baggie. Since they did not impound the truck, we do not know whether he had other means of paying for his groceries in the truck. But since LE saw his CWP, I am assuming he had his wallet on him.

      • Damned decent of him to leave his money in his truck, assuming he had any, together with leaving the keys in the ignition.

        He might as well have stuck a sign on the windshield stating, “Steal My Truck.”

      • Obwon says:

        True, but we’re, inch by inch, getting closer to the truth. Now that Shelly is on the rack, so to speak, she has only to tell us that either she had the cards, or the bank to tell us they were maxed out.

        Osterman was with Shelly when they retrieved the truck, so there’s a source for knowledge about what the truck contained, and that knowledge can possibly be obtained. If it hasn’t already been.
        The walls may be closing in really fast on GZ’s little story.

    • aussie says:

      He had a wallet. We don’t know what was in it, apart from his CCW licence. Then the cops gave him back his wallet to take home and never recorded what else was in it.

      Anyway he wasn’t going shopping. He was going stalking and you don’t need money for that.

      • boar_d_laze says:

        It was my impression that the police looked in his wallet. I may have picked up some misinformation from another site which I credited it because it fed into my already developed speculation that Mr. Zimmerman never actually intended to go to the store.

        If so, I apologize.

        • If the police took his wallet, they would have inventoried its contents, particularly any money he might have had, if for no other reason than to protect themselves from a subsequent allegation that they stole some of it.

      • boar_d_laze says:

        I also apologize for bad grammar, spelling, and extraneous wourds caused by lack of proofreading.

        I stuck.

      • You might need money for bail 🙂

      • aussie says:

        They did not take or keep the wallet. I think they let him pull it from a pocket and give them the Carry permit out of it, then gave it back to him. This is not documented anywhere except for a mention in a police statement about him producing a CCW permit from his wallet.
        He was not being charged or jailed, under which conditions they would retain his possessions and inventory the contents. They needed his clothing for evidence, no doubt could see no reason why the wallet would be relevant to a SYG claim.

    • WritingOntheWall says:

      He had a gun though. Do Targets allow Conceal Carry ? Doubt it. Likely that this seek and destroy was his only mission for the night. The call logs of GZ, MO and FT will have a lot to tell.

  19. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Professor Leatherman, I apologize to you and the rest of the posters, but I had a moment of righteous indignation. I’m gonna say night.

  20. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Yep, his family and friends didn’t have anything to do with Trayvon’s death, but that didn’t stop them from rushing to give GZ’s hearsay testimony on national television and pleading his case and smearing Trayvon and trying to paint him as a thug to justify a senseless killing to save GZ’s lying behind and a gun law that needs to be amended. Not to mention, how GZ’s supporters floated around that picture that was supposed to be Trayvon the thug, but was another Trayvon Martin that lives in Atlanta, Georgia or how they hacked his Facebook account and made it out of a thug page. But I guess, that’s what you consider righteous, huh?

    I saw his original Facebook page. The kid talked about going to college and his future career. Oh, did I mention that he was an A and B student in a magnet school and the teachers said that he was full of cheer.

    Trayvon was not committing any crime. GZ had no authority or right to question him or stop him and Trayvon was not obligated to answer him or stop and talk to him. Slavery ended back in 1865, black folks don’t need a pass to go anywhere anymore. GZ should have stayed in his truck and waited for the police to get there, and maybe, the matter would have been cleared with no death, and I did say maybe because some of these cops need anger management classes themselves. But no, GZ insisted on playing wannabe cop and now a child is dead and his mother and father will never see their son again. At least the Zimmerman’s will get to see their callous,conniving, sick-minded, worthless son again.

  21. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    You’re right they didn’t have anything to do with Trayvon’s death, but they sure didn’t waste any time rushing to plead his case on national tv, did they?

    I don’t not know if the witnesses are lying or not, but I do know that George is! However, none of those witnesses bothered to step out of their comfort zone and go outside and they heard that child terrified cries for help. .

    Obsequious? Thank you for the compliment! I’d rather be obsequious than support a child murderer any old day.

  22. Thanatos says:

    “For all we know, they may have confronted W6 with information about a phone call with GZ that caused him to retract his story about MMA fighting. Doubt if he did it out of the goodness of his heart. If they have evidence about such a call, I wonder what he told them.”

    Your conspiracy theories are neither characteristic nor befitting of either a former professor or a former attorney. To drag third parties, such as Zimmerman’s family and friends, into them is shameful.

    But to actually accuse witnesses in the case of “lying”, and to suggest they were participants in a conspiracy that led to Trayvon’s death? Appalling, given your former professions.

    But crackpots come in all shapes and sizes. Your comments are an embarrassment to both of your former professions. Your obsequious pupils will undoubtedly jump to your defense. But you have as much credibility in my mind as Zimmerman does in yours.

  23. Thanatos says:

    “For all we know, they may have confronted W6 with information about a phone call with GZ that caused him to retract his story about MMA fighting. Doubt if he did it out of the goodness of his heart. If they have evidence about such a call, I wonder what he told them.”

    Your conspiracy theories is neither characteristic nor befitting of either a former professor or a former attorney. To drag third parties, such as Zimmerman’s family and friends, into them is shameful.

    But to actually accuse witnesses in the case of “lying”, and to suggest they were participants in a conspiracy that led to Trayvon’s death? Appalling, given your former professions.

    But crackpots come in all shapes and sizes. Your comments are an embarrassment to both of your former professions. Your obsequious pupils will undoubtedly jump to your defense. But you have as much credibility in my mind as Zimmerman does in yours.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      Just theories – possible, probable, impossible, outrageous – just theories.

      • Thanatos says:

        No, not just theories.

        a. direct accusations that a witness was “lying”
        b. Highly improbable, groundless, and, above all, irresponsible theories in that they involve identifiable third parties, many by name.
        c. over-the-top rhetoric.and character-assassination of Zimmerman- as well as his friends and family who had nothing to do with what happened to Trayvon.

        The “just a theory” excuse is “just an excuse”.

      • Dave says:

        Witness 6 retracted a statement that strongly supported Zimmermann’s case. He must have had a good reason. Professor Leatherman’s hypothesis would explain this retraction. If Thanatos has a more plausible explanation I’d like to see it.

      • Dave~ I guess the fact that the forensic evidence just didn’t support that report. There was no GZ DNA on Martin’s hands, so being seen “hitting MMA style” would be impossible. The witness, once caught in his own lie (or misperception, if you will) retracted his statement. Retracting is better than being labelled a liar as proven by DNA analysis.

  24. Justkiddin* says:

    I am watching some older Utube News articles and case related videos. On one of the videos this guy said 1 witness held the phone to the window so 911 could here the fight. Supposedly this call has not been released. Has anyone heard this? I do not recall hearing about this one but keep in mind my children have diagnosed me with old timers.
    It would be nice if there is some piece of evidence that wraps this in a nice bow for the prosecution. There has never been any doubt who the screams belong to imo. Zimmerman had his mouthpiece in his holster. Trayvon had nothing, even with him screaming for his life and not one person felt the need to go out and try to help him. I can’t imagine the pain, I love all 6 of my children. Life would not be the same with the loss of 1 of them. What kind of NW allows a moronic idiot to run around with a gun, he could have killed a innocent child. Oh he did. :/

    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      JustKiddin, that disturbs me too that not one person felt a need to go out and try to help him and heard that child’s terrified screams for help and admitted to the police that they heard it. I know that bothers them.

      But what really ticks me off is how some have attempted to slander and smear Trayvon to justify murder of a child. Some have even tried to label him an adult to justify murder. We’re living in an age where, “Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold.”

    • Obwon says:

      They say that “Clint Zimmerwood” often prowled the streets of the nabe with his lights off. That must have been a comforting sight.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Obwan: You make me laugh. Some witnesses say he creeped around the neighbourhood while some say he didn’t. Maybe he was picky about where he creeped. He probably wouldn’t want the head of the HOA catching him. Apparently, he went door-to-door with a clipboard to introduce himself. Now, what kind of notes did he write on that clipboard.

        • Obwon says:

          I don’t know, but I do have a question for the lawyers here:

          Let’s assume that it takes GZ a bit of patrolling to discover TM by the mailboxes, and because of this TM realize he’s being followed and is frightened by it.

          Judging by what you think GZ should know of the law, do you think he could have feared that, he, himself could be in trouble if this incident is reported? If so, what kind of trouble would he face?


  25. Zhickel says:

    Nothing at all to do with Zimmerman or Trayvon, I thought you would enjoy this article.


    Wawra said he and his wife were confronted in broad daylight on a paved trail by two men who asked “in a very aggressive tone” if the couple had “been to the Stampede yet?”

    “They approached in such an aggressive, disrespectful and menacing manner,” he wrote, that the off-duty cop instinctively reached for where his sidearm would have been had he been south of the border.

    “I quickly moved between these two and my wife, replying, ‘Gentlemen, I have no need to talk with you, goodbye,'” he said. “I thank the Lord Jesus Christ they did not pull a weapon of some sort.”

    “Many would say I have no need to carry (a gun) in Canada,” Wawra added. “Yet the police cannot protect everyone all the time. A man should be allowed to protect himself if the need arises.”

  26. TruthBTold says:

    @Mainstreamfair and Professor,

    Speaking for myself, regarding MOM’s knowledge of or the extent of any monies in the fund piqued my curiosity based on a couple of things and not GZ’s word alone. Noooo way. Just another area of exploration as we have all explored and expressed a lot of things. Nonetheless, points taken and thanks for the input. Peace.

    • CherokeeNative says:

      We can give O’Mara the benefit of the doubt, but I am absolutely convinced that there is no way that he didn’t know about the funds, he just may have not known the extent of the donations. He was aware of the Paypal account from the first day he took over to represent GZ, he mentioned it in his PC. I don’t believe that O’Mara would risk his reputation before the Court had he known the substantial amounts of money that had been donated, because he would have known that due to the very large amount, it would eventually become public knowledge. However, I can see him thinking that the small sum of 37k couuld be spent towards GZ’s bills and never be noticed. As a defense attorney, he owed a duty to the Court and GZ to delve into all sums of money and assets available to his client before seekng to claim him indigent. He admittedly failed to do that. While the Court and BDLR may be giving him the benefit of the doubt as well, O’Mara will be under their scrutiny from here on out. JMHO.

      It does go to show that GZ will throw anyone under the bus. It will be interesting to see how the Shellie perjury case plays out since if it is true that O’Mara was told of the monies, Shellie could testify that she relied on the advice of GZ’s counsel when testifying at the bond hearing. While it won’t relieve her of her crime, it goes to mitigation. This could get really nasty folks.

      • CherokeeNative says:

        I have another thought on the Shellie perjury case, and would like to know what Professor Leatherman thinks about this. If Shellie were to testify at her trial that she relied upon the advice of GZ’s attorney, (and possibly if GZ were to testify at her trial that he advised O’Mara of the funds), wouldn’t this put O’Mara in a conflict of interest situation necessitating his withdrawal as GZ’s attorney – or how would that work? Just running potential scenarios through my head and sharing them with you all.

        • First, looks like Shellie’s case will come up for trial before George’s.

          Second, she has no defense to the charge because she testified under oath at the hearing that she was not aware of any money that had been donated to the Paypal account, or words to that effect, after she had transferred $130 K into her account and George’s sister’s account. Since she has no defense, she has no reason to go to trial and probably should be considering pleading guilty.

          Third, the critical question for her is whether she has information she can trade in exchange for a reduction of the charge (i.e., charge bargaining) or a reduced sentence (i.e., sentencing bargaining).

          I suspect she could sink George’s ship.

          Fourth, is she willing to cooperate? She may not be willing to rat him out, since she is still subject to his daily influence and not looking at a long sentence.

          My guess is she will plead guilty, accept full responsibility for her lie, and resolve to do her time for her man.

          I don’t think the prosecution is after O’Mara and I doubt they would believe her, if she told them that he had advised her to lie about the money. Don’t forget that George and Scott (his brother in law) agreed to keep O’Mara in the dark. Their conversation was tape recorded.

          • ajamazin says:

            Shellie, alone,  has felt the legal effects of George’s deception.



          • Sandra E. Graham says:

            Shelly Zimmerman plead not guilty.

          • Yes, she pled not guilty, but everyone does that an arraignment. Courts will not take guilty pleas at felony arraignments because counsel must first be confirmed, rights must be explained, discovery must be released to and reviewed by the defense, and a decision must be made whether to try the case or plead guilty.

            Even guilty people have a right to go to trial, but if they decide to plead guilty because they have no defense, they have to go through a lengthy inquiry by a judge regarding the rights they give up if they plead guilty.

            Shellie is going through the review process with her lawyer and I am predicting she will plead guilty because she has no defense.

            George is not in a position to help her out since he has his own charge pending.

          • Sandra E. Graham says:

            The processes are complicated to someone who does not know how the system works. It is no wonder the courts are back-logged. But, it comforting to know that every i is dotted and t is crossed prior to an actual trial. It has to be right and proper for Lady Justice to work. I now know why every lawyer I have met look haggard before their time.

      • TruthBTold says:

        Cherokee wrote,

        “However, I can see him thinking that the small sum of 37k couuld be spent towards GZ’s bills and never be noticed.”

        Right. Perhaps not affecting his poor man claims.

      • Obwon says:

        As you say MOM knew about the paypal account and the website from the first day he took over, but, there had not been any money coming in before, so why should he believe that money would suddenly come in now? Remember, these are not people used to large amounts of money moving so fast. I don’t think GZ wanted MOM to know about the money, since that would definitely restrict his access to it immediately. He very well might not have been able to pay off his bills, if he had revealed the cash to his lawyer, because the lawyer would have to seek advice from the court, before even one red cent could be spent.

        No, I rather think that the donations suddenly started coming in really quick, and caught everyone by surprise! An account that O’Mara believed to have only a few hundred dollars in it, would hardly have been cause to seek advice from the court on how to apply it, less, be an influence on the amount of the bond.

        Besides, O’mara would not conceal what he knew, because he has “no dog in the hunt”. It makes his position neither better nor worse for the revelation to the court of any amount. So, without a motive, the issue goes to O’Mara.

  27. Patricia says:

    Question(s) for ajamazin:

    You are an absolute wonder re the Zimm pedigrees!

    Please help me with the clan profile:

    GZ’s American grandfather (bom est. 1917) marries the daughter of the 2nd-in-command of the Cuban Embassy (who had been re-assigned to Canada), when “Grandfather” Zimm was about 30. Wedding held in Ottawa in 1947.

    Thus his children (just one son?) – George’s father, Roberto – is half Zimmerman (of whatever combo of European and other ancestry “Grandfather” was) and half Cuban.

    The son, Roberto (George’s father), had two wives: one the mother of George’s half-sister (that’s the first wife?), and one the mother of George and George’s brother, Robert, Jr., yes?

    That’s Roberto’s current wife, Gladys, right?

    The grandmother who raised George so kindly was the Cuban grandmother, Cristina? They moved to Florida because it was kinder to her health? (Cristina’s not Gladys’s mother, right?)

    Now, the two sons were borne by Gladys, who had some connection to Peru but is really Catalonian? Of Catalonian stock that emigrated to Peru at some point, but did not intermarry with the locals?

    Non-Peruvian (but proud Catalonian) Gladys is the current wife of Roberto, Sr. and is the sister of ____ Meza who came up from Peru to fight alongside the US military in Vietnam in the 60’s/70’s?

    Is VietNam vet Mesa the father of the cousin who was allegedly molested by George from age 7 to 17 (“The Altar Boy Years”)?

    George is “the son her father always wanted”?

    I see a new soap opera on the horizon:
    “As the Malevolent World Turns” (think, Pay TV)

    Thanks, ajamazin.
    Your help is appreciated!

    • lynp says:

      Gladys Zimmerman is not Catalonian (a small segment of Spain) but clearly Mestizo/Peruvian Amerindian. The Zimmerman Persuvian Clan are Brown not white like Spanish Catalonians. The millions of Amerindians in Central and South America are desended from the Asians who crossed the Bering Straits about 12,000 year ago. Geoge, brother Robert, sister Sue and Gladys share the Asian traits of straight black hair, eye fold, flat noses, medium skin tone such as brown and short of stature. The Catalonian bear no resemblence to the Peruvian Zimmermans. The locals in Peru are Amerindian and Mestizo not of European heritage with their fine hair, white skin, and thin noses.

      • lynp says:

        “A picture is worth a thousand words” Lao Tzu, who is brown.

      • Patricia says:

        Wow, Lymp, that’s a clarification! I thought Gladys was NOT Peruvian and, therefore, there could NOT be a refuge for GZ in Peru.

        But Sue is a half-sister. With some other Peruvian mother?

        Just looking for where GZ could put down roots some day.

        I have some of that Bering Straits heritage myself, but after 12,000 years it’s only noticed by my skin tone and my long flat feet. Really long, and really flat. (Where do you think the idea for snowshoes came from?)

        Thanks for the quick response!

      • ajamazin says:

        lynp ,

        I disagree.

        The Mestizo of Peru are of mixed heritage – Spanish [European] and Amerindian ancestry.

        Please post a link to the pics of sister ‘Sue’ and mother ‘Gladys’.

        I have posted links to pics of ‘Gladys’ – she has none of the physical traits you describe.

    • ajamazin says:

      1. Robert W.  Zimmermann was the son of Clemence Zimmermann. His mother’s maiden name was Becker. Therefore, he was known abroad as Robert  Zimmermann Becker.

      2. The wedding of Silvia Brull [Baralt] to Robert W. Zimmermann:


      OK, I am impressed.

      3. Silvia and Robert had 4 sons. Robert J. Zimmerman, Roberto ZIMMERMANN BRULL (,  is the eldest. http://personal.telefonica.terra.es/web/jrweb/laura/2824.htm 

      Over the past several month’s, I have seen information altered or scrubbed before my eyes.

      Silvia was quite active in the anti-Castro movement.  I find it stunning that she was killed by a hit and run driver while crossing a street in D.C. 

      “The son, Roberto (George’s father), had two wives: one the mother of George’s half-sister (that’s the first wife?), and one the mother of George and George’s brother, Robert, Jr., yes?” \

      I can not give a definitive answer. Apparently,   Roberto ZIMMERMANN BRULL  and Ines have only one natural child,  a daughter, Beatriz.

      I have reason to believe that Silvia is the great aunt of George and Robert J. Zimmerman Jr.  

      I doubt Meza swam to Washington, D.C. to fight the Viet Cong  but that story must wait for tomorrow.


      • lynp says:

        Well, as noted before “a picture is worth a thousand words”. George and the sibling are obviously Mestizo while their mother is either pure a Amerindian Peruvian native or a Mestizo herself with the brown skin, eye folds, flat nose, straight black hair and short stature of the Asian Race they are descended from but as short folk have small feet. We can see them, up front and personal and don’t have to speculate about their heritage.

        • ajamazin says:



          You have not shown me a photo of the ‘mother’ of George and Robert J. Zimmerman.

          You offer NO PROOF. 

          You ASSUME that ‘Gladys’ is their mother and that they derived they appearance from her.

          ‘Gladys’ does not have brown skin, eye folds, a flat nose, etc. 

          She was born in Barcelona, Spain.


          hint: George and Rob Jr. are not her natural children.


      • lynp says:

        BTW, the link posted for Gladys Zimmerman’s picture, as you too noted, did not work.

    • ajamazin says:

      I suspect her brother was a covert agent collecting intelligence on Cuba and possibly involved in the failed Bay of Pigs invasion.

      Were he actually Peruvian, he would have been a good candidate to infiltrate the Sendero Luminoso for the CIA.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        So far, at my end the links you have provided have been fine. I am not an American. So, being on the outside looking in, I agree with your statement.

        Interesting (and frightening) to think there are people who believe in the right to carry a gun and exercise their own judgement in killing others. The right to bear arms is one thing. But, if someone has that right removed through incarceration or whatever, isn’t that a violation of an American citizen’s 2nd Amendment right. To me, the right to bear arms is a privilege deserving of standards, like a drivers license. With a drivers license, you may lose the privilege should you violate the terms allowing you the privilege. I am not saying this to enter into any debate. It is not my place to do so. But, it is so confusing to think that owning a drivers license is harder than getting a gun because it is merely assumed that the gun owner will be responsible.

        I am more shocked at MOMs comments about GZs broken nose and head injuries during his press conference today. The broken nose still appears to be the focus for those who believe GZ had the right to use deadly force. And, there are some that still insist that this a black vs. white case.

  28. Justkiddin* says:

    Dang I had not thought about that. Dude sends wife back to house all alone after he shoots and kills a thug and then the little sweetie allows her to get arrested for him. With a husband like this I am surprised the domestic violence came from the ex and not the wife. I know if he were my husband he would be meeting my cast iron skillet.

  29. Vicky~~re Professors true love is beautiful. I think it depends on the camera angle.

    Speaking of true love, the ex-fiancée with the rabid pitt bull did mention in her interview that she and George did have a couple of get togethers after they parted ways. IIRC, this was after Shellie became Mrs Zimmerman.

  30. Patricia says:

    To Professor Leatherman:

    Thanks for putting up the obscene tape of George trying to imitate Trayvon’s final screams of mortal terror.

    I hope the prosecution wraps up with a clip of “No regrets George” saying “It was God’s work”, then plays George’s “demo” after explaining how and why it was officially re-created:

    “The defendant wants you to think he was terrorized, in mortal danger. Here are HIS words:”

    (Then you hear chirpy George yelling,
    “Help ME! Help ME! Help ME …. ”
    So very George, with the emphasis on “ME! ME! ME!””)

    The prosecution continues:

    “Of course it wasn’t George Zimmerman screaming at all that dark night. Here is the actual 911 tape, just before the shot is fired

    (play tape, ending with gunshot and then, extended silence …)

    “Trayvon Martin’s voice was forever silenced when George Zimmerman’s hollow-point bullet tore his young heart to shreds.

    “You cannot bring that young man’s voice to back to life.
    But you, the jury can speak for him.
    Just one word:


    • Justkiddin* says:

      Patricia maybe you should do closing arguments. That was beautifully stated. Point taken!

    • Now THAT is one hell of a powerful closing rebuttal argument.


      If I were defense counsel, I’d be tempted to throw a white towel over counsel table so it flutters to the floor in front of the jury.

      The prosecution should have you do their closing rebuttal argument.

      • Patricia~~you are so right. Reading you comments covered me in goose bumps. The one aiming the gun did not make those screams. Zimmerman trying to say that Trayvon said, “you got me” or “you got it” is totally ludicrous.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        LOL! Me too! In addition, I’d be tiptoeing quietly out the courtroom through the back way to avoid any news reporters. I think I’d even take a vacation on that one.

    • Patricia, you rock & roll!

    • TruthBTold says:


      Good job. The whole it was “God’s plan” is the final nail in the coffin.

    • Thanatos says:

      Even if it were Trayvon’s voice, I doubt Trayvon would have been able to recreate it any better. You have to be in the right emotional state. I won’t be surprised, however, if the defense introduces a new tape of GZ screaming.

      • Patricia says:

        So, let’s hear the Li’l Executioner sing.

        I bet there are a lot of folks who would like to put him in the right frame of mind.

        Frankly, what we need is a volunteer, who will appear at the trial with a shaved head, a la Zimmerman, and a dermatologist who then cuts two itty-bitty miniature scrapes into the back of the volunteer’s head (no anesthesia, naturally – because none is needed) – and watch the blood flow.

        Zimmerman thinks he can claim his life was threatened by the nicks he got – by tumbling briefly onto the dog walk – because his own blood scared him. Too embarrassed to blame the force of gravity – or his own lack of agility to stay upright

        Then the dermatologist can ask the volunteer, “How do you feel?” and the answer will be, “Same as when I came in. It’s nothing. But can you hand me that towel?”

        I’ve already had similar tiny scalp cuts and I can guarantee you, Thanatos, that IT’S NOTHING.

        Chicken George just hasn’t had any “real life experience.” He’s a wuss, and he knows it.

        BTW, I’m willing to be the guinea pig volunteer –
        shaved head and all.

  31. Vicky says:

    GZ seems to have forgotten the “fall on your sword” aspect of true love. Apparently, for GZ, true love really does mean “never having to say you’re sorry” at least not and mean it anyway. Or maybe following his “near death experience” he decided to invoke the “until death do us part” aspect of his marriage vows. At the very least, he has the right to go solo into the future if necessary.

    Sadly, Sherrie seems to be a means to an end for George. Hopefully, she will wise up and take his “near death experience” and the events that followed, as a sign that is in her best interest to move on and never look back.

  32. TruthBTold says:

    Diary wrote,

    “I am still shocked that Mr. O’Mara has not been called up on that jailhouse conversation, which clearly points to his knowledge of at least $37,000.”

    Booyah, my thoughts exactly. I like JL and BDLR, but their constant compliments of MOM is annoying. Maybe there is some hesitation on the State’s part in going down this road, but I don’t understand how it hasn’t been explored. I would think this warrants being a serious issue. MOM tried to play like he didn’t remember that particular sum of money or something like that.

    • I cannot fathom Mark O’Mara jeopardizing his career by deceiving the courts in any way shape or form. I thought Mark may make his exit from Z’s case when he learned of the coded phone calls and money transfers. I think O’Mara sees this case as a challenge and will probably stick it out to the end. Win or lose, he has built up a good reputation among his peers and the Bar Assoc. Thirty seven grand is a mere pittance to a successful attorney. I have followed Mark for over three years and will back him as being a man of integrity all the way.

      • In evaluating MOM’s potential complicity in hiding $37 K from the Court, we have to keep in mind the Zimmerman Principle; namely, he lies all the time whether he has to or not.

        Anytime he is the only source of information about something, assume it is not true, unless corroborated by independent evidence.

        This is why I am assuming he did not know about the $37 K.

        Judge Lester and de la Rionda are probably doing the same thing.

    • boar_d_laze says:

      Professor Leatherman is right.

      Also you have to bear in mind that EVERY TRIAL JUDGE IN AMERICA has a fantasy in which everyone behaves as though they’re in an English period mystery and opposing lawyers refer to one another as “my learned friend” and go out for drinks after court.

      Lawyers who don’t learn to blow that smoke work and compliment one another in public (at least) work at a huge disadvantage.

      Don’t let smarmy fool you. A smarmy outside is useful for hiding the “Hulk Smash” inside.

  33. TruthBTold says:

    Vicky wrote,

    “I don’t think George is a flight risk at this point. He wants his SYG hearing.”

    Neither do I. GZ really believes his accounts of what happened that night (that’s the scary part), he ain’t going anywhere.

  34. TruthBTold says:

    Professor wrote,

    “True love is beautiful, isn’t it?”


  35. CherokeeNative says:

    boar_d_laze says: The subject might have become confusing when Professor Leatherman suggested that the defense might want to petition for a Writ of Prohibition before or at the same time it appealed a denial on the Mo for Immunity in order to prevent Judge Lester from making further decisions on the basis the denial. For the reason I already described, as well as some others, that (almost certainly) will not happen.”

    Boar_d_laze, you are correct, I was confused, but not about what you were saying which was perfectly clear. I was responding to the initial question presented by Diaryofasuccessfulloser and incorrectly clicked on the “reply” under your comment thinking I was adding my comment to the end of the conversation – not realizing that it would appear that I was responding to your comment. Sorry for the confusion.

    • boar_d_laze says:

      [Oh crap! Now I’ve clicked reply too. Better say something… ]

      Thanks for the explanation. You, sir or madam, are either a gentleperson or damn good at creating the illusion. People like you make this site fun. Please know I look forward to your posts; no matter to whom they’re intended.

      Professor Leatherman’s seminar would be perfect if we could only get a few principled, intelligent, agreeable people who disagreed. Agreed?

      • Ms Cielo Perdomo says:

        LOL! A few wander onto here on occasion but usually leave or are banned when they can’t play by the rules.


  36. Vicky says:

    No doubt. I would imagine they have arranged his security as well.

    • Vicky~~your comment made a great deal of sense. Bravo!

      • Vicky says:

        Thanks MSF. I’m not saying GZ has any intention of leaving the country, I just don’t think he would seriously consider it until after the SYG issue is resolved and all the pretrial discovery has been turned over.
        I do wonder if he would include his wife in any future plans were he to decide to leave the country. For some reason, I think he might view her as excess baggage and an unnecessary expense if things arrived at that point.

      • Dave says:

        Some of us (myself included, I’m sorry to say) have said some pretty harsh things about Shellie Zimmerman but I have to respect her for standing by her man the way that she has. She is a far better woman than GZ deserves.

      • Cielo says:

        But imagine if she DOES decide that she is too good for him. What a wealth of information she could be!

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        Professor, you meant “blind love” didn’t you? : )

  37. Vicky says:

    I don’t think George is a flight risk at this point. He wants his SYG hearing. I think any judge who would allow him to leave the immediate jurisdiction knowing, what is public record now, would be exercising unsound judicial discretion.
    If his SYG bid doesn’t go well for him, he just might be impulsive enough to make an attempt to flee. Especially if it appears the prosecution has him dead to rights, once all the discovery and expert witness materials are turned over. It’s not like he would be on the hook for the bond. And it’s not like he is ever going to see the money he had to put down returned, because he appears. And if George has proved nothing else, he has proved he has no impulse control what so ever.
    That is where the account mom and dad Zimmerman have collecting PayPal donations might become important. Neither the court, the government or anyone else has the right to know how much money flows through that account unless a single contribution exceeds $10,000.
    If his parents are unwilling to see their son incarcerated, mom Zimmerman could facilitate a move to Peru. That is definitely a country with many places to hide. GZ has turned over his passport, but people purchase phony documents all the time. Especially if there is enough money involved. By what I understand, GPS monitoring is basically a joke. People rid themselves of their ankle bracelets all the time. Fleeing the jurisdiction would not add any significant amount of time to his prison sentence were he to be found guilty at trial, so he might view it as worth the risk.
    I hope the bonding company is keeping a very close eye on GZ.

    • They have one million reasons to be keeping close tabs on him.

    • Ms Cielo Perdomo says:

      His biggest obstacle is the fact that nearly everyone has seen his picture, and he wouldn’t be able to just breeze through unnoticed.


      • Vicky says:

        I’m sure many have seen his photograph, but there are just as many who wouldn’t recognize him if he stood next to them in line at the grocery store. In a crowded airport, with most people in a hurry and worrying about far more important things than the possibility that GZ is trying to leave the country, and with a few minor changes in his appearance, it would not be that difficult for him to leave the country. Not if he was in possession of what appeared to be a legal passport and a plane ticket. There are also private jets leaving the country on a daily basis. The private plane terminals/airports aren’t nearly as circumspect and it would be customs in another country where his documentation would be scrutinized if at all. I’m not sure how problematic that would be. I guess it depends on whether or not certain arrangements were made in advance.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          As evidenced, GZ has the ability to shed weight or pack on the pounds in a very short period of time. Each of the mug shots could be a different person. He could slip through many many places without being recognized as GZ.

          • ajamazin says:

            Sandra E. Graham,

            Zimmerman is a consummate actor who is able to assume  multiple personalities.


          • Sandra E. Graham says:

            I am a firm believer that the key at the T is the key. There is a cut through further South and maybe this is where he was parked knowing that Trayvon was on the walkway. The chase ensued S to N. Now, the story has to be he was at the T. The truck has to be moved and then moved again. In your opinion, did GZ act alone. There is a couple of times where he says car instead of truck. Some are focusing on the lies when his being a liar has already been established. GZ did not act alone. … and thanks for your answer about the tattoos. As soon as I read your answer, I recalled having read it somewhere prior. Thanks for the refresher.

    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      People can take a gps monitor off and put it on a dog’s ankle. As for him not having a passport, phony ID and another passport should not be a problem either. He could pass for his brother.

      I’m sorry, but I don’t trust anyone in his family because the father lied and claimed that was GZ yelling for help, the sister was in on the transferring of money to different banks, the brother swore up and down on national tv that George was nearly a vegetable. The only one that has not come out to lie in George’s behalf is his mom, unless they’re saving her as a last resort.

  38. ajamazin says:

    ““My keys are in the truck.” George Zimmerman is heard to say.

    His keys are subsequently found at the ‘T’ with the small flashlight shining.

    1.] Zimmerman returned to the truck to retrieve his keys with the small flashlight attached.

    2.] Someone other than Zimmerman removed the keys from the truck and placed them with the light shining at the ‘T’ .

    [why would anyone risk a lock out by carrying the duplicate set inside their vehicle?]

    • Dave says:

      Has it been established what key or keys are attached to the small flashlight? I ask because someone recently posted that there was just one key. Also I haven’t seen a decent picture that shows both the flashlight and key(s).

      • Brown says:


        here you go Dave…

      • Brown says:


        big flashlight

        the above post is keychain and small flashlight

      • ajamazin says:


        Change ‘keys’ to ‘key’ and ‘are’ to ‘is’ and ‘them’ to ‘it’ and strike ‘set’.


      • Dave says:

        Thanks for the pics, Brown. The one of the small flashlight is the only one I’ve seen. Is that black thing attached to the keyring the head of a car key or something else–say a key fob or a remote switch. I can’t see anything that looks like the blade of a key.

        • Brown says:

          sorry it took so long to reply. I don’t see a key blade either.

          • Obwon says:

            I could be wrong, but from what I’m reading elsewhere, pretty nearly everything is done electronically. He doesn’t need a house key because he can simply enter through the garage. Some cars can be started with remote switches as well, so maybe he doesn’t need any keys at all.

          • Sandra E. Graham says:

            Mailbox key, gun locker key, bicycle lock key, desk key (apparently he brought his own chair into work and locked it to the desk before going home). Point is, how many people have one key on their person. Just thinkin…

          • Obwon says:

            Yes, definitly needs some explanation. My guess would be that you wouldn’t want to expose those keys, to the risk of loss that a more frequenly used and carried vechicle key. If so, a second ring would be in order. A ring you don’t need to carry all the time.

      • Obwon says:

        Before I forget this time… It, more than once, occurred to me that small flashlights aren’t very good a illuminating things, but they are very good at signaling, since their small bright light can be see for quite some distance, even when the figure holding the light can’t be seen.

        What to make of this factoid, I’ll leave to those working the evidence trail. I just think it should be noted.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          You are right. The most those flashlights do is help you find the keyhole to fit your key for unlocking a door. But, in darkness it is a beacon.

    • whonoze says:

      Hs it been established that the key found on the scene if for the Ridgeline? Apparently Shellie also had a Honda of some sort, yes?

      IMHO, in his hurry to chase Trayvon he left his keys (with car, house, etc) in the ignition, but he had his key to Shellie’s car with him, with the little flashlight, which he pulled out once the big tactical flashlight failed.

      • ajamazin says:

        Excellent question.

        Has it even been established there was a key on the key ring?

        But on a previous blog, many made comments assuming that there was…….

        And Frederick Leatherman wrote:

        ““My keys are in the truck.” George Zimmerman was out of his truck when he said this to someone.”

        on his current blog.

        Consequently, I am confused and do not know.

        • Whonoze has convinced me he knows GZ said,

          “My keys are in the ignition.”

          And he said this to Sean, the dispatcher, asking him to pass the info on to the cop en route.

          This was in addition to a vague description of the location where it was parked without a street name or house number, or any other description of his truck, which might as well have been a UFO.

          And then, all of a sudden, it was “have him call me when he gets here.”

          Sounds like he was in a big hurry to see Officer Friendly.

          Methinks he had a little business to take care of first.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          I have said from the beginning that the key is the key to this case and have been told by more than one that the key means nothing. But, it is the key that binds his story at the T. Otherwise, he could have used a more believable story. The key being where it was found also allows for a claim of self-defense in that he did not pursue Trayvon. More evidence about that key, please.

      • aussie says:

        In the reenactment there’s a blue sedan following the police car; at the mailboxes it is pulled up ahead of the reenactment and the officer waves at the chubby woman standing beside it, who looks like Shellie. Someone identified that car as a Toyota.

        The key+flashlight at the T were always described as a Honda key.

        I ask again… after GZ audibly stops running, are there ANY SOUNDS that may indicate he got back in the vehicle and drove it anywhere?

    • Thanatos says:

      3.] Zimmerman didn’t say “My keys are in the..” and took his keys with him.

  39. Digger says:

    Never gave thought that the attorney was GZ’s puppet. From all indications, O’Mara firmly stating he was with GZ to the end, leaves me thinking they work teet to teet. Why would O’Mara want GZ to leave Seminole County. If GZ were to flee, isn’t the entire responsibility that of O’Mara, or in granting the motion would judge Lester share in it, therefore due to criticism, would step down. Imo Lester will never step down unless something comes about that would keep him from appearing less professional. If donations are from public contributors, why is it not on open record. To put their request on internet, they should also have to report regularly what monies they have received. To say what they do with it would most likely be lies.

    • Ms Cielo Perdomo says:

      Maybe try re-reading F. Leatherman’s excellent piece “I’m worried about Zimmerman and O’Mara”. I think GZ is a bone-headed stubborn client and O’Mara can’t control him. One time MOM even said “The client calls the shots.”

      Also the donations are “gifts” hence no need to report them like one would with a 501C charity.

      PS I learned that here, folks.  🙂


      • The Senior Zimmerman’s do not have a non-profit fund set up. I am not sure of the tax rules in the US but I would assume they have to submit quarterly statement to the IRS. Any donations under $13K are considered gifts and not taxable income. Anything over the $13K, the income tax is paid by the donor. If Z were to skip town, someone would have to come up with a million bucks. O’Mara would not be responsible nor the judge if Z skipped town. O’Mara certainly would not be aiding and abetting in Z making a run for the hills. Since Zimmerman feels he is going to win the SYG, he will probably stick around.
        We must not forget that Z not only deceived the court about his finances at the first bond hearing, he deceived Mark as well.

        Zimmerman wants to leave Seminole County so he wont have to pay so much for round the clock security. Maybe O’Mara will mention the motion about Z leaving Seminole in his presser tomorrow. There will be reporters there asking lots of questions.

      • mainstreamfair~ I think security 24/7 would be expensive no matter where he went.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        How did O’Mara not know about the donations when practically everyone in America knew about it? As his lawyer wouldn’t it have been standard practice to ask GZ or find out how much money GZ had collected in donations. In addition, the jail conversation he had with Shellie hints that MOM knew.

      • PYorck says:

        I am sure that O’Mara knew that the donations existed even if he did not know exact numbers. He just thought that he could keep it in the realm of plausible deniability. That the Zimmermans would hatch their ingenious plot on a recorded jail phone was something he did not anticipate. Without that plot it would not have been a big deal.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        MOM should have dropped this case when the jail tapes came out, but well, a whole lots of money will make some people do some strange things. It reminds me of that song by the O’Jay called “Money.” I betcha that the NRA has offered him a substantial reward if he wins this case, but like the donations GZ collected I’m sure MOM won’t volunteer that information either. Him going to speak at a gun conference raises my eyebrow that it must be the money. Some folks will sell their soul for money.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          Yep. Being a defence lawyer is a thankless job. But, I tell you, if I needed one, I would want the best there was.

      • I am still shocked that Mr. O’Mara has not been called up on that jailhouse conversation, which clearly points to his knowledge of at least $37,000. To be honest, Mrs. Zimmerman could easily say that she was led to believe that the money was not of importance because her husband’s attorney said so. It does seem to me that the whole misunderstanding has Mr. O’Mara in the middle of it. I just don’t know why no one has made a stink of this yet, including the judge that O’Mara feels is biased against his client.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          George lies – to family AND friends. He knows these jail house calls are being taped. Maybe, just maybe, he was telling Scott that OMara said it was okay to do what they were doing (like, within the law) in order that his friend Scott would go along with it. Maybe Scott was being used and didn’t know he was being lied to. Rather, could it be he was helping out because he believed George. I don’t think OMara would risk everything on GZ. Everyone says GZ is a liar but they believe him when he says MOM knew about the large sum of money. He knew about the website, for sure. But, IMO, he did not know how much cash was being raked in.

      • Pooh says:


        “He told someone named “Scott” that MOM knew about $37 K and then agreed with Scott to keep MOM out of the loop as to the rest.

        “Scott may not have been the person’s real name.”

        Scott Wilson is GZ’s brother-in-law. This has been common knowledge since the second bond hearing in June. You’re not keeping up with the details, sir!


  40. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    GZ lied about not knowing the street. He had lived there for 3 years on Retreat View Circle and Twin Tree is a cross street There are only three streets in that community. In order to go to work or whereever he had to cross Twin Tree, there is no possible way to bypass it. How did he give directions to his friends, family, or businesspersons to get to his house? In order to do that that he had to know his cross street. I realize that GZ is not too bright, but even children can tell you their cross street.

    Normal human reaction is to bite someone’s hand if they have it over your mouth. I know if someone had their hand over my mouth I would try my best to bite a plug of flesh out. And I definitely would have been fighting hard to remove their hand off my nose or mouth and I’m a woman. But 200 and something pound George was too weak against a 158 pound Trayvon. Gz is full of dung! A 158 pounds is lightweight for a male.

    The young man at the 7/11 put Trayvon’s mercandise in a bag and he left with them in that bag. However, the police report states that the can of ice tea and skittles were in Trayvon’s pocket. The plastic bag that the police used was given to him by some Asian man and that is in thepolice report as well. It does not make sense that Trayvon would accept the young man putting his merchandise in a bag and throw the bag away after he left the store because he would have told the young man that is okay I do not need a bag. That’s usually what people do when they do not want to carry their stuff in a bag.

    GZ is definitely sneaky, callous, and conniving, and he has mental issues as well. I suspect that is why “daddy” always runs to the rescue to protect him. His father outright lied when he claimed that was GZ on that tape hollering for help and he knows good and well that is not his son’s voice. Anyone who listens to the 9/11 tape and the tape recording of GZ screaming for help that was made during the interrogation would recognize that without any problem, unless they are tone deaf. So, I really do not understand why the FBI pretend that they couldn’t tell because that is some bulldung and they know it.

    • Does anyone know if Zimmerman had a store list in his pocket when he emptied them at Sanford PD? How about credit cards and/or cash? Z mentioned he and Shellie did their weekly shopping on Sunday nites. Without Shellie, Z would have needed a grocery list.

      • Ms Cielo Perdomo says:

        Someone had stated earlier that Zimmerman had no money or credit cards in his pockets, just some loose change. Maybe the gun was for “shopping”! LOL!


      • aussie says:

        He would not need a grocery list if he does a lot of the cooking, and/or is a control freak, and/or “cooking” is microwaving the same frozen meals every week.

        He did have a wallet on him. Nobody knows what was in it, except his CCW permit which he showed the police on the night. He was then allowed to take it home. We know they had credit cards, because they paid them off with the early donations money. We don’t know if they were maxed out or not.

    • What Mr. Zimmerman had with him that night could have been in his truck. This is why his truck should not have been moved from the scene.

    • Patricia says:

      GrannyStandingForTruth, this is more than a little rude, so close your eyes, please.

      Re the FBI, the Professor has already opined about the capability of the Bureau.

      Of course they could do VASTLY better with the audio recordings – and everything else. (And if they think they can”t, they should ask WhoNoze.) They could have read the full-page report in the recent document dump by the investigator assigned to Sanford gangs. All FOUR: three Black, one Hispanic. And all three Black Gangs call themselves “The Goons.” Even Chris Serino uses the word “Goon.” Even Zimmerman’s first attorneys said Zimmerman used the words “Fuckin Goon!” WHAT ELSE do the Feds need to establish that Zimmerman profiled Trayvon Martin as a BLACK CRIMINAL???

      I hark back to an earlier time in my life when I spent ten years closely allied to law enforcement on an international level – yes, including the FBI, Secret Service, CIA, RCMP and Scotland Yard and hundreds of local law enforcement agencies, developing counterterrorism training materials. Of course, I used local law enforcement personnel as technical advisors (the guys with the boots on the ground and their lives on the line) and enjoyed their cameraderie. More than once I heard “the three most over-rated things in this world are home cookin’, home fuckin’, and the FBI.”

      I bet, Granny, you’re a dynamite cook. So please forgive the remark about home cookin’. I send my apologies.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        Patricia, no need to apologize, I loved the way you expressed it. In fact, I love reading your summations. Now, see, Patricia I’m beginning to think that your not only a female Perry Mason, but that you also have EPS because I am a great cook. LOL!

        Keep up the good work!

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        Sorry for typo Patricia, I meant to say ESP, but I’m sure you figured that out already.

    • aussie says:

      Hi Granny,

      in the 7-11 video we see him put the skittles in his right-side pocket, and then ASK for the bag. The drink was placed in the bag.

      It is obvious he still had the bag at the scene. He may have taken a swing at GZ with it, causing the drink to fall out. In theory the bad may have fallen with the drink in it, and GZ taken the drink out to see what kind of “cosh” it was, but then I don’t see him putting it into the front pouch of the hoodie on a person lying face down. So it is more likely it fell out early enough for TM to have a chance to pocket it himself.

      My theory is they first met at the scene, a bit of pushing and shoving, that is where they dropped the phone, earpiece,drink and large flashlight. Then TM ran up near the T where GZ caught up with him. GZ slipped (with or without help from TM) giving TM a chance to run south again to find his phone to call for help. He picked up his drink and earpiece as he found them first. By then GZ had caught up with him again, this time really REALLY angry.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        If you were in fear for your life, would you stop to pick up your ear buds and drink!!!

      • boar_d_laze says:


        The body was found near the bag and nearly all the rest of the physical evidence. The only exception was Mr. Zimmerman’s key chain.

        Because Zimmerman’s black flashlight, and Martin’s plastic bag were of the type typically carried in the hand; and because the Martin/DeeDee phone call disconnected involuntarily immediately after the confrontation begun, we’re forced to infer that the confrontation began at the site of the evidence, and that the keys near the T were dropped for another reason.

        That the location of the evidence (including Mr. Martin’s corpse) (a) does not comport with any of Mr. Zimmerman’s statements about the location of any part of the fight; and (b) shows the actual location to a level of “res ipsa,” is hugely important.

        • Obwon says:

          This is exactly what GZ’s failure to observe Neighborhood Watch Rules and Regulations caused!
          — – – — — — — – — – – —- – — — – —- – – – —-|->

          In the common law of negligence, the doctrine of res ipsa loquitur (Latin for “the thing speaks for itself”) states that the elements of duty of care and breach can be sometimes inferred from the very nature of an accident or other outcome, even without direct evidence of how any defendant behaved. Although modern formulations differ by jurisdiction, the common law originally stated that the accident must satisfy the following conditions:

          A “duty” exists for a person to act “reasonably”; and
          A “breach” of this duty occurs because a person [or agency, etc.] acted outside this duty, or “unreasonably”; and
          There was “causation in fact”…the result would not have occurred “but for” the “breach” of this duty;
          There was actual legally recognizable harm suffered by the plaintiff who did nothing wrong (i.e., no contributory negligence).

          Upon a proof of res ipsa loquitur, the plaintiff need only establish the remaining two elements of negligence—namely, that the plaintiff suffered harm, of which the incident result was the legal cause.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      I am sure the Zimmerman family are just as shocked as everyone else and are trying desperately to find a way to justify their family member’s actions. No one would want to believe their son would actually kill someone for no reason. They love him, too. When something like this happens, their are always more victims – those who have to live with the consequences of the tragic event. Just as it was offensive to have the Martin family dragged through the mud, to blame the Zimmerman family is just as bad. They are retelling what they have learned from GZs perspective and you know GZ lies. So, please, go easy on them. They are victims too.

      • Obwon says:

        Also, remember, this case would never have capture national attention, if the police had processed the case for judicial review as they should have. The prosecutor should not have stood in the way of the process, since, until the evidence is collected, how could they say with any certitude what law(s) should be applied?

        This didn’t fit the category of a storekeeper under attack during a robbery. A cafe shoot out with patrons joining in to defend themselves. It was something happening on a dark walkway, between two people, one of whom could not give testimony.
        So, at first blush, all you can do is test the veracity of the story of the “last man standing”. That story could not pass the “smell test” if the police still had questions needing answers.

        Also remember, what we’re learning now, is mostly what has been developed after those 45 days of inactivity have elapsed. Fortunately indeed it is, that the police did continue to do follow up work after GZ’s release.

      • Ms Cielo Perdomo says:

        True. We have seen that GZ doesn’t care WHO he throws under the bus, as long as he benefits from it. That includes his wife, his friends, and obviously his family. NO WONDER they were estranged.


  41. Digger says:

    Patricia, I go with you, GZ did not need any accomplice to pull the trigger. The only way I would include Taaffe would be as in the area to intimidate Trayvon to help GZ’s approach. GZ couldn’t take the chance that Trayvon might survive to tell his story about that evening so as he himself stated, he “TOOK AIM”!! right to the heart knowing it would keep that from happening.

  42. Patricia says:


    Two or three years from now, after all appeals are heard, and in the process all available evidence has been revealed and all testimony has been given and cross-examined, we will look back and wonder why we were so certain of our theories du jour.
    I try to base my reasoning on evidence provided by official sources, but knitting these bits and pieces together is at best conjecture, subject to re-examination when each new fragment of evidence is revealed.
    In light of the Professor’s proposed conspiracy exercise (good to stretch our analytical muscles) I am now DESPERATE for the release of phone records. Cell phones are ubiquitous in our society, as are the records maintained for them.
    What calls were made on Shellie Zimmerman’s cell?
    Taaffe’s cell?
    Osterman’s cell?
    Chief Bill Lee’s cell?

    What other calls were made on George Zimmerman’s cell?
    Trayvon Martin’s?

    Has the WGN/Channel 7 report that Trayvon called 911 been verified? Anybody interview the on-air personality whose intro we can hear, but, unfortunately, not the supposed 911 clip?
    Was that “ABC-7 Chicago Acknowledges Existence of 9-1-1 Call by Travyon Martin During Attack” a hoax by an anonymous announcer? Any students of Professor Leatherman in the Chicago area who will contact the station to check this out?
    If you are convinced a conspiracy existed that night, wouldn’t you like to know if GZ set up three-way calling to Osterman BEFORE calling the NEN? To impress Osterman, who would be listening in, as GZ convinced the dispatcher to rally the troops in GZ’s behalf? Would a 3rd participant’s number show up on the NEN screen when GZ talked with the dispatcher?
    Consider this scenario:
    GZ has asked MO for a loan (February 26 is close to the end of the month).
    MO stops by bank ATM Sunday evening for cash.
    On the way over, notes TM gaining entry through the hedge gaps.
    MO phones GZ to meet him at the gate (and open the gate)
    so MO can drive over to the Z’s house.
    Arriving, MO comments to GZ that he saw an unknown person entering via gap in the shrubbery.
    GZ sez “Hey I’ll check that out. And I’ll be right back with pizza.”
    GZ leaves house (in vehicle), searches then spots TM on the road in the complex, moves truck into good observation site. Calls MO to let him know he’s spotted the intruder, proudly sets up 3-way call so MO can listen in to GZ’s expertise in coaxing NEN dispatcher into sending out the troops.
    Amusing to MO, but then things start turning a little hinky.
    GZ now is in pursuit of his prey. MO, startled, gets back into his vehicle at GZ’s house. He knows where GZ’s truck is parked (from the 3-way call), heads in that direction.
    Personal observation: I ignored all the bumps & clicks on the recording because those things happen, especially with a shifty critter (note my prejudice) like GZ.
    I did not hear any of the amplified statements like “Good job!” However I did hear GZ say to the dispatcher – under the dispatcher’s words, “Look for my truck. The keys are on …” (I assume, on “the seat.”) This could be a message to MO. MO already knows what GZ’s car looks like and has a good idea where it is, from the conversation he heard. (When deposed, MO said he has been to the Z’s house 50 times.)
    Few people leave their keys in the ignition, but some will drop them on the seat, under casual cover – a map, a notepad, etc. GZ could lock the car, because he has a spare Honda key on the ring with the mini flashlight. (GZ may be preparing for his triumphant ride to SPD in the squad car, with his prey TM in the back seat, that he envisions happening in a half hour. But he wants MO to know where the keys are, and it’s easy enough for MO to get a locked car open if he needs to).
    GZ sets off in pursuit of TM in the dark dogwalk area between the rows of condos, all the while talking to Sean (dispatcher). Meantime MO has hurried over and encounters GZ at the head of the T. MO sees TM is still on the phone and stays quiet, assuming (correctly) GZ is talking with NEN.
    GZ spots friend MO (MO is probably thinking at the time, “Shit, what did I get this dumb-ass into?” and is here to provide adult supervision) but GZ does not want to acknowledge MO’s presence, with Sean listening.
    THEN, in the dark, at fairly close distance, MO’s cell phone rings.
    (It’s Shellie, to ask MO, “What’s happening? What’s happening?”)
    NOTE: I HEARD THAT CELL PHONE RING TONE just prior to George suddenly, and seeming in a hurry, hangs up on Sean.
    Or was this Trayvon’s cell phone ringing as DeeDee is calling back?
    Assuming it’s MO’s (and he quickly kills the call and/or gets rid of Shellie), the two guys together locate TM a few feet away, trying to hide up against the building.
    MO and GZ challenge TM. MO knows he can no longer claim to be “Police … Freeze!” because he’s lost that authority. Both GZ and MO know from the dispatcher that officers are on the way. GZ convinces MO to let him take care of this situation, and MO, knowing officers would be on the scene in less than a minute, acquiesces, so his young “mentee,” who has never known a triumph in his life, can finally get some glory.
    MO leaves, heads back to Shellie.
    GZ, in all his controlling glory, starts badmouthing TM. TM still has no idea who these guys are. Scared that the one who seemed less crazy has left. He’s now with the guy with the Kung Fu goatee, the “creepy” one, who is enjoying inflicting pain on TM. (WITNESSES HEARD WHIMPERING).
    TM manages to break loose – maybe by bumping GZ, GZ falls, scrapes head, grabs at TM, TM falls, two guys now rolling in the grass. (Note: no grass stains on GZ’s jacket which is primarily non-abrasive polyester fabric, and the grass is wet, so they are sliding on the grass without bruising the surface of the leaves, bruising that would cause visible staining if the grass were dry and the friction caused the vegetal juices to ooze.)
    I am convinced GZ had TM’s body AND ARMS pinned by straddling TM. GZ had his head bumped and abraded just moments earlier. Typical for bullies (yes, I am pre-judging GZ), George is exquisitely sensitive to the tiniest pain to HIMSELF and infuriated that anyone would inflict it on his precious body – although I believe it was inflicted by gravity, not TM, as they came briefly in contact with the dogwalk.
    TM is totally imprisoned by GZ’s 207 lbs. (MD weigh-in report, next day) and GZ’s grasp on TM’s two shirts, together. TM calls out for help. GZ tries to stifle TM’s cries.
    TM whips his head back & forth; GZ is unable to get TM to “shut the fuck up.”
    In fury at this turn of events, feeling the blood flow from the back of his head across his cheeks into his goatee, overdramatizing the extent of his “wounds,” he draws his gun. He may have even taunted TM: “Tonight, mutha-fucka, you die!”
    TM’s screams turn to “No, No!”
    GZ easily plugs TM in the heart, shooting perpendicular through the grasped, stretched sweatshirts and the “intermediate” airgap into TM’s torso – AS THE TRAJECTORY PROVES.
    GZ immediately rises from his “saddle position,” FRISKS TRAYVON FOR WEAPONS (GZ testimony) hoping to find proof that The Goon was armed, giving him a certain self-defense claim. No such luck. Arranges TM’s hands under him, with TM face down.
    ALTERNATE SCENARIO: I have long considered ajamazin’s theory of a few weeks back that GZ shot TM in a vertical position. She is a great analyst AND researcher.
    If I had not heard that long series of cries and wailing (which cause my belief that Trayvon was fully restrained on the ground) I could conceive that maybe, summoning his last ounce of desperation, TM struggled free, with GZ only restraining him by holding onto the shirts. As he rose, GZ was in a panic that maybe TM would escape, and Ostrander would say “What the hell happened?” and GZ would lose face with his only friend – AND lose out on the opportunity he long cherished: to catch a burglar on site. Fearing the shame and loss, GZ drew the Kel-Tek, extended his arm forward (AS GZ RE-ENACTED) and shot TM in the heart.
    TM was leaning as far away as possible from the gun. GZ avoided (in either instance – sitting or standing) shooting himself in the hand that grasped the shirts, making the bullet holes in the shirts (which align with each other) out of the normal alignment of the shirts to the body.
    Because GZ was holding on to the shirts with all his force, and death removed TM’s ability to pull away from GZ, the dead TM pitched face-forward toward the force that had been pulling him, and as GZ hastily hopped aside as TM crashed forward, TM ended up face down with his hands beneath him.
    AS EYE-WITNESSES REPORTED and GZ TESTIFIED TO SANFORD PD, he got over TM’s body, re-arranged the arms, and searched the body for the (non-existent) weapons.
    So there may be alternate ending scenarios – TM prone and captive, TM rising to escape, TM fully upright trying to flee – but ajamazin, the trajectory of the hollowpoint, and I all agree: GZ shot TM at a right angle to TM’s torso.
    This through grasped, stretched sweatshirts that prove GZ had control over TM, HAD NO NEED TO SHOOT WITH POLICE ON THEIR WAY, BUT HAD THE ENRAGED MOTIVATION TO MURDER, with the freedom to draw and place his gun precisely to blast open TM’s heart and lungs without hitting GZ’s own precious hand – AND DID THIS KNOWINGLY, WILLFULLY, AND WITH CONSIDERED MALICE.
    I do not believe there was a conspiracy, and that if others were involved – Shellie and Ostrander in particular – they would not have let this escalate to GZ’s enraged termination of Trayvon Martin’s life. Both, however, from their relationship with GZ, have tried valiantly to defend him … after the deadly fact.

    They shoulda stuffed a gym sock in his mouth instead.

    Now let’s see what the cell phone records produce.

    • Another excellent summation and I think TM’s phone is ringing with Dee Dee calling. Don’t think Osterman is present.

      Here’s a video of GZ being questioned by the cop operating the Voice Stress Analyzer.

      Note what he does with both of his hands to demonstrate how he shot TM.

      That doesn’t look like self-defense to me.

      Yes, indeed, the cell phone records will answer a lot of our questions.

      • Patricia says:

        Yes, I don’t see a conspiracy, but acknowledge there COULD be others briefly involved (to back up witnesses saying that early in the encounter they heard multiple angry authoritarian voices.)

        Joined in on your class assignment to examine the issue.

        But George’s friends know he is damaged goods. Osterman could not afford to lose his job serving as backup to this crazy operation. Who would take the risk of CONSPIRING with somebody so dumb, so unstable, as Zimmerman?

        What was the hitherto “unknown factor” to everyone was George erupting in rage ove such minor paper-cut injuries to the back of his head.

        This is typical of a bully. They can dish it out but not take it.

        George instantly opted to play judge and jury for Trayvon’s involvement in this “injury” to George. (It’s also likely that gravity-to-concrete caused the scalp lacerations and kickback from the Kel-Tec or chamber dinged George’s nose.)

        So, George killed him — that seems even-steven to George. In fact, Zimmerman probably feels that “Trayvon Martin owes me one” and that everything that George is being put through right now is Trayvon’s fault.

        With Zimmerman, “narcissism is the only ‘ -ISM ‘ for me.”
        He’s the ONLY one tha counts.

        It’s “God’s PLAN.”

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          That ringing phone could be the cops calling him to find out where he is as he asked them to. The first address he gave was the clubhouse and the gate needed opening, so the call just may be from Timothy Smith asking for further information. Or the ringing phone may be an incoming call at the despatch office

      • boar_d_laze says:

        Good catch on the video tape.

        But can the prosecution get him to do it again.

        As you know, but for nearly everyone else’s benefit: The voice stress test tape is not evidence because the prosecution does NOT want to introduce the video because the results would come with it.

        While the defense not only doesn’t want to show how Mr. Zimmerman acts out the shooting, but can’t get it because the “test” is inadmissible according to whatever cases Florida uses to ban “non-scientific” expert testimony (in California we cite Kelly-Frye, Daubert is current Fed, etc.). Also, the statements in the interview are “hearsay not within an exception” to the defense.

        • You said,

          “As you know, but for nearly everyone else’s benefit: The voice stress test tape is not evidence because the prosecution does NOT want to introduce the video because the results would come with it.”

          The results of the voice stress analysis test probably are not admissible in Florida or anywhere else that has a Rule 702/Daubert/Frye rule, but that should not mean that the interview prior to administering the test is not admissible.

          If the results of the VSA test are inadmissible because they are not sufficiently accurate or reliable, then the result of the test should be inadmissible if the prosecution introduces a portion of the video as an admission by a party opponent. The Rule of Completeness might arguably allow another portion of the tape to be played to present a complete picture of what Zimmerman said, but that would not include the result of the unreliable and inaccurate VSA test administered later in the interview.

          Note for non-lawyers:

          If you have served on a jury or watched a jury trial and wondered what the lawyers and the judge were discussing during a sidebar conference, this discussion we’re having is a possible example of an issue that might come up during trial and be handled at sidebar, or the judge might excuse the jury and handle it while they are out of the courtroom.

          Simple matters are handled at sidebar. More complicated issues are handled with the jury out of courtroom.

          The point is that the lawyers and the judge don’t want to mention the test and the result before the judge rules on its admissibility after the lawyers make their arguments. They follow this procedure to avoid the unringing-the-bell problem.

          Experienced lawyers anticipate issues like this one and others coming up at trial and raise them as motions in limine (i.e., at the beginning) before jury selection and opening statements. Judges always appreciate a heads-up to carefully consider and reflect on important evidentiary issues before they arise during trial. They do not like having to make important decisions quickly under the gun that might affect the outcome of the trial.

    • Totally agree that the phone records will all fill in large gaps in the mystery. The part where Zimmerman says in the interview “I aimed” and “I made sure” [not to shoot my other hand] and where he extends his arm to demonstrate shows that the two were separated, that GZ could have left but he did not.

      I think that someone else told GZ about TM in the first place. The statement “He’s here now,” for example, is a very odd thing to say, almost as if GZ was expecting for TM to show up.

      I don’t trust any of these people. Investigators will need to get all the phone records from the cell phone companies. They will be able to get more detailed records from the phone company than what we get in the mail for our phone bill, and I hope they do this.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        “The part where Zimmerman says in the interview “I aimed” and “I made sure” [not to shoot my other hand] and where he extends his arm to demonstrate shows that the two were separated, that GZ could have left but he did not”

        I agree and thought the part about “about not to shoot my other hand” did not fit with the scenario that GZ created. That was a dead give-away to me that he is lying.

        • Obwon says:

          Exactly… On his back with someone sitting on top of him, it would be difficult indeed to even get his hands together at all, since his arms would be mainly “elbows to the ground” and only raised or extended with great difficulty and with a very small range of motion.

          Yet, he keeps reflexively extending his arms as he shows himself taking the shot. Then mentions that he’s trying to avoid his left hand.

          If he were on the ground, with his elbow to the ground (right arm), there should be no problem avoiding involvement of the left hand/arm. That possibility only comes into play, if he’s standing and his left hand is doing something that can put it in front of his right hand, if he’s not careful.

          I can imagine that “something” he might be doing with his left hand, would be, attempting to hold onto someone trying to pull away, where their twisting and turning, pulls on the clothes being held, and is dragging the left hand back and forth in front of the right hand.

          Don’t get me wrong, I’m only guessing that, even for someone like GZ, the profundity of the killing shot, had to impress his position on his mind. So, I think that if he took the shot like he said, with his elbow to the ground, that would be exactly what he would demonstrate, EVERY TIME! Yet his reflex is to show his arm extending with the gun, and his left hand in a position, hard to reach when on your back on the ground.

          Maybe someone here could get a buddy and try to reenact the on the ground positions to see what the range of motion for both hands would be? It would be interesting to hear several reports.

          • Patricia says:

            And, Obwon, remember THE TRAJECTORY. It’d not just that Zimmerman would have to wriggle his fist and KelTek into position, it would have to be perfectly placed to match THE CORONER’S REPORT. And he could NOT do so, “under” Trayvon.

            It’s the science that’s going to send George to jail. It proves he was holding onto Trayvon, preventing Trayvon from escaping.

            Then he executed the kid.

            Because he was pissed the kid did not obey his “authority.”
            So he could show a dead kid as proof of his “police prowess.” WHAT A FAKER!

      • ajamazin says:


        Think Amdoc and Converse.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        And, yet, you believe there was no Conspiracy.

    • Brown says:

      Excellent summation.

    • whonoze says:

      Patricia wrote: “MO phones GZ to meet him at the gate (and open the gate) so MO can drive over to the Z’s house.”

      But on other boards, people who have actually been to The Retreat, report the gates close at 7PM. Which would mean:

      a. If Osterman was coming to visit, it would seem he timed his arrival so he would not be held up at the gate, and his freind would not be bothered.

      b. Somebody has to go close the gate at 7PM. Who is that? Couldn’t this person have seen Trayvon under the mailbox awning? How is this person not identified, not on the witness list, not interviewed?

      • Ms Cielo Perdomo says:

        Hey it was raining and chilly! Dude just wanted to lock the gates and get back to the game. Anyway, people don’t always linger after doing some mundane task. If he locked up at 7pm and left, maybe 5 minutes in all, he would have missed the entire thing.


      • whonoze says:

        I think you’re missing the point. DeeDee’s statement places TM under the mailbox awning at 6:54. If the State could prove that was the case beyond a reasonable doubt, then they prove beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ did not spot TM by Taaffe’s while driving to Target, and that will have to make an impact on a jury (or a judge in an immunity hearing). But DeeDee alone doesn’t get them there. If they have just one corroborating witness that saw TM under the mailbox awning, and could verify that the time was before 7PM, then that solidifies DeeDee’s timing, and the whole first chunk of GZ’s story is gone, beyond a reasonable doubt, and in a simple, easily comprehensible refutation that isn’t as complicated as parsing light patterns in the security videos, or trying to ahow that GZ’s account in the ‘re-enactment’ don’t match the times it would have taken tose events to occur.
        If i were the preosecutor, I would have investigators canvassing the whole complex for anyone who might have seen TM BEFORE 7PM…

        • Obwon says:

          Also after ~6:17 when the first police respond to RATL, they come straight in, no mention of having to wait for gates to be opened. So they were probably never closed that night.

      • mataharley says:

        Not sure what all the speculation about the security gate going on is about. At the time of the murder, the R@TL gates remained closed at all times (noted in the complex’s Feb 2012 newsletter) following some construction they had going on. Residents and/or visitors enter via remotes, or by a gate code – the latter which is usually typed in at a keypad located at the entrance for both cars and pedestrian entry.

        The note that residents will be needing their remote or gate code full time, since construction was done, is mentioned in the first doc dump from May, which included the newsletters. Pg 150 of the PDF.

        Ergo, no one had to meet anyone at the gate to open or close it, as it electronically opens when the remote is used, or the gate code is input correctly. The gate stays open for a pre programmed length of time, then closes automatically.

        As is done with most gated complexes, residents give visitors, pizza deliver types the gate code. The HOA generally changes that gate code every month or so. Were Osterman a frequent visitor, or expected for a visit, the Zimmerman’s would have given him the current gate code for entry.

        • What about emergency vehicles like cops, ambulances and fire dept?

          • Sandra E. Graham says:

            Re: The Front entrance. In one of the newsletters, there is concern about tailgaters – more than one car going through at a time. However, there is much talk about the front entrance. Is there no gate or security camera at the back entrance – where most of the problems in the community originate.

      • mataharley says:

        More details on the security gate access system at Retreat at Twin Lakes, here is their gate code form.

        You’ll notice that residents and visitors program in their own codes for their remote transponders via this form, or visitors can use a directory that calls the residents’ phones (they prefer they aren’t cell phones), which they can open the gates remotely by pressing “9” on their phones

        Residents can also opt for programming four digit gate codes for the keypads at the gates (at the bottom), which they can provide to regular visitors. (note the disclaimer that they will be held responsible for actions of individuals using their gate codes).

        So this community has a system where the access codes can be individualized, and not a community-wide key pad access code.

      • mataharley says:

        masonblue/FL: What about emergency vehicles like cops, ambulances and fire dept?

        There are varied ways around the emergency public services, and I’m not sure which one the R@TL uses, FL. But these overrides include methods such as sensors that respond to a transmitter that all emergency vehicles have, or emergency gate codes that the HOA provides to the public services.

      • mataharley says:

        BTW, FL, the emergency access is something that emergency personnel have been dealing with on local levels for a while. Some local area governments mandate it, others are working on making it easier.

        Here’s an article from a security management company that discusses all the methods of emergency entry, and some of the laws.


        R@TL is a recent development, only finishing off their construction in late 2011. My guess is that they accommodated for emergency entry via their HOA gate system somehow. But I don’t know that for sure.

        On the gate form I linked above, you’ll see an email for the HOA about the gates. You could always give it a shot and ask them how emergency vehicles enter the complex.

    • Patricia,

      ABC took the video down about Trayvon making a 911 call. It just disappeared without a retraction. But I did find the sound cloud.

      • Patricia says:

        To SouthernGirl2 –

        Alas, on the new link you sent, I get more of the announcer’s words, but none of the 911 tape.


        When does the prosecution have to release it?
        Two weeks before the trial? WOW!

        (PS, my cat sez “meow” to your cute kitty … that’s “Hi!” in Persian.)

      • I just ♥ cats. 🙂

      • The tape has never been released. ABC7 reported Trayvon made the 911 call and then took the video down and not a word about it has been spoken since. Was it a mistake or do the Feds have it?

        • Obwon says:

          So maybe they do have something to show Trayvon’s state of mind, to counter GZ’s claim of him “skipping away”?

          • Sandra E. Graham says:

            I am sure we are going to see a few bombshells in the next wee while, for sure – especially since they charged him with Murder 2.

          • Ms Cielo Perdomo says:

            I am sure that this call was pulled because it did not exist. When the altercation took place, Martin was on the phone with DeeDee. There were numerous 911 calls that night and maybe someone just assumed one was from Martin. When you want to scoop other news sources, you make mistakes. This was one of them.


          • Sandra E. Graham says:

            Re: the 911 call
            DeeDee said There were a few times where the calls were dropped during their conversation. It is possible there was something on the phone.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        SouthernGirl, it won’t play.

      • Thanatos says:

        I probably wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for Trayvon’s 911 call. It doesn’t exist.

      • Obwon says:

        Here, remember this site it’s easy to use, just type: tinyurl.com

        into your browser box and paste the url into the box they provide and hit enter. You get back


        as a result for the long url you just posted.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          True or untrue, the news report must have had GZ scrambling if he heard about it. But, there is no date on the article. It just says 5 months ago. This, to me, is odd for a news broadcast.

          • Obwon says:

            I keep hearing mentions of it, but I see no place in the timeline where it could occur, because he’s connected with DD most of the time. After the confrontation begins, I don’t see him having access to the phone.

      • @Obwon

        I thought about tiny your url after I posted the long link, but it was too late already. I should know better. I use them all the time when links are so long. Thanks for the reminder.


        I read where others couldn’t get it to play either. I don’t know what’s up. I’m not sure what to do.

        • Obwon says:

          It played for me, but it was just a news report about a 911 call, not the call itself.

        • Obwon says:

          Not a problem, I do it myself when in a hurry even I don’t think sometimes. But I posted it for everyone’s benefit, because long url’s are likely to break and that leads to a lot of needless back and forth postings.

          I think we like the long url’s because they often contain a bit of a description. But tinyurl.com offers an option to contain a preview in the shortened link, so I think I’ll be using that feature from here on.

      • Pooh says:

        This is obviously mistaken reporting from five months ago. Likely the news report got the idea of a recorded 911 call mixed up with the initial reports of DD’s phone call with TM. That sort of partial information happens all the time in breaking news stories. TM couldn’t have called 911 (with GZ’s recorded voice in the background) because he was on the phone with DD.

    • aussie says:

      Guys, don’t forget the NE call was being recorded at the NEN END. Everything we hear after GZ hangs up is inside the NEN office and nothing involving GZ. It’s a police phone line, they get a lot of calls, it doesn’t matter to us who the next caller was. An earlier distant cell phone tone MIGHT be TM’s phone, which would give away his location. Have you done the times on this?

      Patricia I agree with a lot of your scenario except for MO’s role in it. There is nothing to indicate MO would want to get involved in anything like this. And GZ would not want a witness to HOW he becomes a hero by letting others listen in on his NEN call (and maybe interrupt etc).

      Don’t forget MO had been trying to mentor GZ to go straight, lose the anger, act sensible, work a job etc.etc. There is nothing criminal or corrupt in MO’s history, either.

      He lost the Deputy job over taking on outside work without permission. The outside bodyguard work was an issue only because the client turned out to be a con-man, who drove his “security” around in a flash car and took them clubbing. That doesn’t show MO to be corrupt or violent, it shows him to like a bit of extra money and some fancy nights out.

      To my mind he is GZ’s only true friend and the straightest person on the GZ side in this whole sorry saga.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        MO being his best friend and still GZ lies to hi. MO tells GZ to just tell the truth and GZ will not heed his best friends advice. But, GZ calls Frank Taafe and leaves a voicemail indicating he would like to be like him someday. If GZ would throw his wife under the bus, what makes you think he wouldn’t do the same to his friends.

      • Patricia says:

        Aussie, I wasn’t positing a conspiracy. The Good Professor gave us an assignment to consider the possibility. I couldn’t find a conspiracy in the true sense of the word (as in: planning) and I think George would want to do this on his own to capture all the glory.

        I also think Osterman would not get involved in anything like this in a million years – George is too unstable, and Osterman would risk the job he’s had for ten years.

        But George could be tipped off that “there’s a stranger among us,” only in harsher terms. That’s possible. As in “anything’s possible.”

        There should be a LOT more evidence coming down the pike. Maybe a conspiracy develops, maybe not.

        Who knew GZ would blow his volcano over essentially two tiny scratches and a cracked nose? What a wuss!! But as I said, a coward can dish it out, but not take it.

        To GZ, all anger is justified – if it’s his.

        I don’t envy Osterman taking on George as a “special project.” Likely deserves a medal. Just make sure it’s a bullet-deflecting one.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          Well, MO is making sure GZ is secure and knowing that his good friend is a liar who has a totally unbelievable story about how he killed someone. I don’t know about you, but, if I were working for Homeland Security, I sure wouldn’t want to be associated or implicated with this whole scene. And, yet, he has been there every step of the way. Even school teachers choose their friends wisely because they value their jobs and wouldn’t want to be tied in with something illegal. They always say- you are what your friends are or birds of a feather flock together.

  43. ajamazin says:

    An Orlando Sentinel review of Central Florida “stand your ground” cases found that suspects were far more likely to be exonerated if they were the lone surviving witness.

    • ajamazin~~what you just said is sad but true. If you want to win on SYG, shoot to kill. That law needs to be amended pronto but it will be some time next year if and when they decide to make any changes.

    • Ms Cielo Perdomo says:

      Assuming that there wasn’t a ton of extraneous available forensic evidence or video.


    • GZ gutted his defense with bits and pieces of damning admissions that, together with the forensics, torpedo his self-defense claim.

      For example, the scream comparison tape:


      And this:

      Game, Set, Match.

      • ajamazin says:

        We are talking Florida.

        Need I say more?  


        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          No defensive or offensive wounds on Trayvon. Here is a scenario: Maybe Trayvon booted GZ in the nose and when GZ was down took the boots to his head. Obviously, he wasn’t wearing boots. This would carry on down South. GZ gets up and goes to try and defend himself by trying to get up tugging at Trayvons hoodie and shirt with his dominant hand and shooting with the other. The fight may have had little to do with hands and the fight could have moved N to S with GZ shimmying and wriggling on the way down.

          • Ms Cielo Perdomo says:

            Some 30 feet? That’s SOME shimmy!


          • Sandra E. Graham says:

            Yeah – there are a couple of funny YouTube videos about GZs shimmy. But, if you have been knocked to the ground with a few side kicks and you are trying to escape – maybe GZ was trying to escape South because that was where the fight was progressing. Kick, down, up slide, kick, down, up – no grass stains

      • IamI says:

        Hello to all… 2 month reader, but first time commenter on this enjoyable blog.. I came across this revealing video (by LLMPapa) of another George Z. slip-up. He is admitting being at the “T” And seeing Trayvon go down that walkway!

      • IamI says:

        Sorry I suck at embedding videos, Here it is… http://youtu.be/61E0sBPQams

  44. HarborSprings902 says:

    Hello! I think the additional possible accomplices being involved peripherally would be mostly irrelevant to the actual shooting, but only relevant as to showing that Zimmerman had a shady friend Osterman who probably fueled his paranoia about supposed “thugs” in the neighborhood due to his own bizarre personal problems . Osterman or Taffe may have shown up later at the scene with the flashlight and helped with some poorly done head cut manipulation and head photography. Zimmerman will never tell the truth about this unless Taffe and/or Osterman is cross examined or investigated by prosecution and admits to any involvement if faced with conspiracy /obstruction of justice or cover-up charges as is found in many cases of murder when the defendant had looked for assistance with body remains or weapons disposal . Whether Osterman or Taffe was peripherally involved does not release Zimmerman from being the actual shooter and being fully responsible for following and profiling Martin . Zimmerman had a reckless and superior view of himself that is shown by his beratement of the police force and the self conviction that his father ,yet simply a court magistrate , could get him out of any trouble. I’ve seen people like that….very disturbing.
    Like I said…Taffe or Osterman could end up being seen as accomplices in covering up a crime , but not in conspiracy to murder.

  45. Just as a layperson, if I were to profile George Zimmerman, the first thing that comes to mind is immaturity. I believe George was coddled all of his life including the present. When Shellie spoke to him in the jail calls, she sounded like she was talking to her little boy and not her spouse. I found Z’s very doting sister laid the pampering on thick.

    Z also comes across as sneaky. If the allegations are true, he was that way at 8 yrs old when he started to fondle his cousin, under a blanket, behind a curtain..etc. Z was sneaky when he was giving instructions to Shelly on how to transfer the money. He knew the jail house calls were being monitored yet he was speaking in monotones barely above a whisper. Mentally the guy comes across as a 12 year old. (no offense to twelve year olds intended).

    I am still shocked how Z was able to obtain a concealed weapons permit. Don’t they have questions on the application to assess one’s mental stability and run a thorough background check for any past offenses? ( Florida lowered the price of permits by approx $10 and there are more guns in the state of Florida than people-just an aside here)

    Back to George- His grades, post graduate are nothing to brag about, all being way below average. I am not sure when he developed ADHD and started to have anxiety and for which he takes perscribed medications. When I looked at George in his first court appearances, he came across as ‘zombie.’ I began to wonder if it was the meds or narcissism. Did you notice that Z seldom blinks? It is just a wide eyed stare and remains calm as can be.

    So far we have an immature sneaky individual who managed to get a grown-up gun and some real bullets. Off he goes to play cops and robbers. Sadly we know the outcome. Z was expecting to show the Sanford PD…” look, what a good boy am I? Right?” He almost made it come true thanks to the bungling of Sanford, PD.

    In conclusion, George Zimmeman strikes me as someone who does not have the incentive to climb up a corporate ladder, in his fantasies and conniving, underhanded, lying, deceitful ways, he wants to descend from the sky like God and land on the top rung. After all, he believes he is God.
    I needed to vent so thanks for bearing with me. This is somewhat against the norm for this old girl but damn, it sure felt good. *wink

    • Digger says:

      lol MainStreamFair, you can just say you came out and spoke as you see it. There are many who have already attributed all your findings to George Zimmerman’s personality. My personal concern, is he going to get away with it? Most, including the Professor here, feel not, but who can tell before the final act. Thing is, there are others all around who will never expose their true character as GZ has, unfortunately for one Trayvon Martin.
      I don’t understand the “wink? Don’t want to flirt back. lol

      • Digger~~Mark O’Mara has a presser tomorrow along with an announcement. I believe tommorrow may be the deadline to file an appeal against Judge Lester’s ruling not to stepd down. Now will this be the announcement tomorrow? That is anyone’s guess.

        I am not sure if O’Mara is Zimmerman’s puppet and Z is calling all the shots. If that is the case, Z will not want Judge Lester to be on the bench when he goes for the SYG mini trial. Many legal analysts feel Z just may get immunity and his case will be thrown out. We have to take into consideration that many of these analysts are defense lawyers.

        O’Mara was going to file a motion requesting Z be able to leave Seminole County. I cannot see Judge Lester granting that motion not when he thought that Z was a flight risk. It would be interesting to find out how much money in donations Robert and Gladys rec’d after starting their website soliciting funds. I am sure a lot of that money would go to their son. Mexico may look very inviting to Z if he has enough funds to survive . JMO

        Re that * wink… I am quite harmless but ya can’t blame me for getting in a bit of practice. lol

        • Ms Cielo Perdomo says:

          Zimmerman would not go to Mexico as he has no family there. His mother’s family is in Peru.


          • ajamazin says:

            Ms Cielo Perdomo,

            No, they are not. That is a myth that has gone unchallenged by the MSM. 

            Le sugiero que sitios web de investigación ascendencia con sede en España o mantenido por los españoles.


          • Ms Cielo Perdomo says:

            En serio? No sabia. Gracias!


  46. Digger says:

    Whonoze, hard to say, could be opening of door also. Can you tell us if this was just as George stated to the dispatcher that
    “he (Trayvon) is checking me out, coming toward me”?

    I have always felt George did have his gun drawn as he left his vehicle and continued on foot to follow after Trayvon through the area.

    • whonoze says:

      No. It’s as he recovers his breath after chasing Trayvon.

      I think what people need to remember here is that GZ lost TM, hung up the NEN call, time passed, and then the two men came in contact again leading to the fatal shooting. That’s indisputable fact.

      So, after the NEN call ended, GZ had plenty of time to continue scoping the area for signs of the “asshole,” time to get either more frustrated, or to have his anticipation build, time to pocket his non-working flashlight and pull out his gun. But it’s still not logical that TM would say ‘What you following me for?’ and get into a shoving match with a man holding a gun. The logical sequence, it seems to me is short verbal confrontation, getting in the other’s face, shove away, return shove, grabbing and pulling and shoving and losing balance and falling to the ground. And THEN Zimmerman pulls out his gun. A little ‘wrestling’ — no head-smashing, MMA punching blah blah blah — and then over 45 seconds of abject terror as Trayvon Martin stares down the barrel of a gun, screaming for his life, and…

      Hell, the State undercharged this. 45 seconds of torture. GZ should get life without parole.

      • Horror was my first reaction and Murder1 was my first thought after I heard TM’s terrified screams.

        I never believed that was George Zimmerman screaming.

        The case is actually undercharged, but the prosecution should be able to easily prove the depraved mind element of Murder 2.

        • Ms Cielo Perdomo says:

          At the beginning I didn’t think that the prosecution COULD prove that “depraved mind”

          requirement. But now, especially AFTER the interview with his 2 statements that : No I don’t regret anything I did, and 2. It was God’s Plan, I see that requirement neatly solved, and ALL out of GZ’s own mouth!


  47. whonoze says:

    OK, I’ve made a YT vid in response to this “you can hear GZ cock his gun just before he says ‘Zimmerman’!” mania.

    “Physical Evidence. It’s Always Your Best Prosecutorial Value!!” ™

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      Good Video. Could that sound be from his other gun or a different holster. GZ has 2 guns. FTaaffe says what they are and I would have to dig if there is a possibility. The sound, through my untrained ears again, is just too rhythmic and crisp to be the banging of a flashlight, IMO.

      • whonoze says:

        I don’t know anything about guns, but I would guess a similar kind of gun would make a similar sound. But banging things DOES make crisp sounds. That is to say, the sharp attack and direct decay of the noises on the NEN call is characteristic of sound made by an impact. In this case, my guess is it’s a battery bouncing against the inside of a metal flashlight barrel. On the other hand, the longer waves of the gun are characteristic of something sliding against something else, in this case quickly enough that it sounds like a ‘click’ at normal speed. But I guess that’s how a gun works: you pull the slide back, a bullet pops up into the chamber, and then the slide goes forward. Each of those is metal moving against metal, rather than metal striking metal.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          Thanks for your answer. I know nothing about guns, either. The comparison video sounds not the rhythm but the sounds are very different to my ear. The Keltec in the video sounds like metal against metal and the NEN call sound is crisp. This is why I ask about the sound being a locking-type holster (not the kind GZ has) sound. Anyone out there know if there are sound comparisons.

  48. ajamazin says:


    Elle Jay says:

    “–taaffe’s presently in foreclosure…since october 2011.”


    Note: ANSWER AND AFFIRM DEFENSES BY DEFT, FRANCIS TAAFE were filed on February 22, 2012 and the COMPLAINT was FILED on 10/03/2011

    1.] What is the usual amount of time a defendant is allowed when a MOTION FOR EXTENSION OF TIME TO FILE ANSWER TO COMPLAINT has been granted in a case involving a

    2.] Who do you think was the UNKNOWN TENANT IN POSSESSION in 2011?

  49. Does anyone know if they have set a date for Shellie’s perjury trial? I am wondering if she is still calling him her ‘little cutie pie’ and standing by her man. Zimmerman was the mastermind behind all the bank transfers and hiding the money.

  50. TruthBTold says:


    Well, as I’ve stated before GZ is quite a few things. It’s everyone else but him. As far as the lies and lack of accountability, they can start running together. Meaning, lying about following Trayvon. GZ was trying to get away from that because he knows that by saying outright yeah I was following him, it wouldn’t look good for him so, tries to shirk the responsibility of how his actions resulted in this confrontation and deadly consequence. Another example is the d-list movie lines he attributed to Trayvon. No one with any amount of good sense believes that. In my opinion, there is or can be a relationship between the two, even if not technically meaning the exact same thing.

    • Digger says:

      TruthBTold, thank you, I think along the same. He has carried out to the extreme as he is determined to put everyone else down except himself. He doesn’t have to utter “N” in negative because everything else he does and says “relates” to a “better than they” self.

      I too wonder how far into this Shellie will stay committed. Guess she could always have her “story book” planned as in “Living with My Cutie” for a profitable later day.

  51. More from the pathological liar department:

    Serino tells GZ he wants to meet him the next day after GZ gets off work to do the videotaped walk-through and says “Call me at 5 pm.”

    GZ says he has a class @ 6:30 pm..

    Serino asks him what he’s studying.

    GZ says he’s working on a Bachelor’s Degree in Political Science at SCC (the community college).

    Was he lying to conceal that he was pursuing an AA degree in Criminal Justice because he feared that, because of that training, they would have realized that he knew he did not act in self-defense?

    Or did he just lie because he feels so incredibly inadequate no matter what he does that lying is his default response to every question?

    • Small lies about minor situations do point to residence in that department.

    • TruthBTold says:

      LOL @ pathological liar department. I tell ya. It becomes quite tedious having to deal with these types. From my understanding though, UCF is in partnership with SCC, so I guess that’s how he was pursuing the Bachelor’s degree. No longer in CJ which they already knew from earlier on when they asked his higher level of education. Nonetheless, you were pretty spot on with respect to your last questions. I think he might be one of those.

    • PYorck says:

      I think his lying is literally pathological. It is not just the number of lies. He also lies very indiscriminately. I know that if I was accused of murder, racking up pointless lies would be something I’d try to avoid.

      • Digger says:

        TruthBTold, How is pathological liar related to one who never accepts that “they” error, while destructive behavior is always the “other persons” fault. Is it same?

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          How many times does it take to misspeak before they are called a liar. How many times does it take to lie before it becomes pathological. I am sure many defendants lie in court to escape consequences. So, are two lies worse than one. If a person’s credibility is gone — its gone. He can lie all he wants and he knows he is lying, obviously. It is only the evidence that will be presented to the court – the defence interpretation and the prosecutions interpretation of the evidence. Okay, so he is a liar. But, what story does the evidence tell us.

    • whonoze says:

      SSC does not offer Bachelors in the liberal arts. It’s AA programs in Poly Sci and Crimin Justice are linked, probably share courses and faculty. “The Associate in Arts (A.A.) degree is designed for transfer to an upper-division public college or university in the state of Florida.” So if GZ intended to get a BA or BS in Poly Sci, he would be working toward that by completing an AA at SSC. But he would have to transfer into a program at a 4 year college (.e.g. UCF) to complete it.

      So his comment to Serino was just minor spin, registering about a 0.05 on the Zimmomendacimeter.

  52. Obwon says:

    There is a problem with this theory that needs a bit of work.
    Remember that GZ’s truck was found somewhere on TTL by
    the police sent to sweep for vehicles that didn’t belong in the area.
    So, we know that the truck didn’t move until Osterman and Shelly came and got it.

    Now, I know that “ignorance is no excuse for the law”, but I’d still find nothing suspicious about Shelly removing the vehicle by herself, since she can credibly claim that she didn’t know not to do that. But, with Osterman’s credentials, I have to say he did know that the vehicle should not only have not been moved, but it should have been pointed out to the police as having possible evidence value. Isn’t removing evidence some kind of crime?

    Also, GZ is no stranger to using coded language. So “tell my wife I shot someone!” could, very well be code for “come get my truck outta here”.

    Just like when he says “My gun is on the ground”, while in reality, his gun is already back in it’s holster, could have been a signal for some one to remove a second gun from the scene.

    Maybe I watch too much tv, but, police (and GZ is in tight with them, waltzing through the station freely on his arrest night, and being there frequently over time), do quite a bit of talking about second “back up weapons”, and “throwaways” (guns that cannot be traced to an owner, that can be dropped at a scene as the assailants weapon)

    GZ can’t get a throwaway gun, but my guess is, as a wannabee cop, he’d be trying to do things as “professionally” as he could, so why not have a back up weapon, in case something went wrong? Only things, after the shooting took place, that gun would have to be removed from the scene. If not, and it was traced to GZ or his wife or friend, then he’d look like he came prepared to do a shooting.

    Well, that’s my two cents.

    • I don’t believe there was a second gun at the scene.

      If GZ had a throwaway gun, he would have planted it on TM when he straddled and patted him down for weapons after he shot and killed him.

      We also would have heard a far different story that he would have tacked on to the he’s looking-at-me-and-reaching-into-his-waistband story that he told Sean, the dispatcher, during the NEN call.

      • Obwon says:

        GZ was chronically short of money and “throwaway guns” cost a lot of extra cash. Which is why I don’t believe he had one. But, a “back up” weapon is one that some police carry, in case something happens to their service weapon. If it jams, or they lose control of it somehow. So, I wouldn’t put it pass GZ to, say take his wife’s gun along as a back up. After all, he is playing cop, so he might just as well play the role to the hilt.

        If he did so, then things unexpectedly came to this end, he’s got to get the second gun away from the scene. Don’t get me wrong, the only thing about this hypothesis is, I’m trying to find an explanation for him saying that his gun is on the ground. Yet, no witness says they saw him pick one up off the ground, and the first officer on the scene, takes GZ’s weapon from his hip holster.

        I mean, it’s another anomaly just like “the keys are in my truck”. Why is he saying these things?

  53. angela_nw says:

    I forgot to mention, the exchange with Det. Singleton begins at around 4:50.

  54. angela_nw says:

    Prof. Leatherman, could you write a post on Zimmerman’s perception of himself as cop? To me, the most significant commentary in this case comes from George’s own mouth the day after the shooting, when he is left alone in the interrogation room with Det. Singleton, whom he knows/has met from previous “neighborhood watch” activities (discussed later in tape).

    In an informal situation (she just sits by the door) he talks to her openly and frankly. When he describes the shooting in what comes across as almost an “intimate” exchange, he does not say anything like “I was afraid that kid was going to kill me” or “I was so scared” but rather indicates that he failed in detaining/controlling Trayvon – a role that he had no business expecting to perform. And yet here he is the day after, still delusional about his role. This aligns with Taaffe’s remark (which I believe he DID get from George) that Trayvon was expected to “submit” to George. Notice George’s hand gestures while he is talking. He is not reflecting on any “imminent danger” that he himself had felt but rather his inability to come across as an authoritative figure.

    ‪George Zimmerman Sanford Police Interview [Lie Detector/Polygraph] (February 27, 2012)‬

    the exchange as best I could transcribe it:
    GZ: Have you ever had to shoot anyone?
    Officer: No.
    GZ: Well good for you. (pause) … You’re probably stern enough to get the point ….
    Officer: Sorry?
    GZ: You’re probably stern enough where you can get the point (see hand gesture) … you’ve got that…
    Officer: huh
    GZ: … authoritative, commanding presence.
    Officer: (inaudible) female all-geared-up-thing???
    GZ: …even without it, I wouldn’t question your (deployment?).


    • julia says:

      If I were on a jury and saw this I would think that Zimmerman is a sociopath.This tells me everything I need to know about him.

      • He laughs casually with Detective Singleton as if nothing has happened.

        EMT’s took Zimmerman’s vitals about 20 minutes after the shooting –

        Blood Pressure – NORMAL

        Temperature – NORMAL

        Pulse – NORMAL

      • lynp says:

        George Zimmerman has no glibness, charm or obvious ability to con a rock which is my understanding most Sociopaths are quite good at such as Ted Bundy. George can barely complete a sentence or show any signs of being articulate. He is a dumb guy. He is going to have to pay for shooting Martin and killing him but a Master Criminal, he is not.

        • Ms Cielo Perdomo says:

          According to his cousin who claimed sexual abuse at his hands, he is very charming in social settings, so much that her own father considered Zimmerman the son he never had. I think his true nature is being revealed as he realizes more and more just how much trouble he is in. Dont underestimate his psychopathy because he appears awkward on TV. If you notice on the tapes he tries to suck up to all authority figures.


      • ajamazin says:

        I tend to think he has multiple personalities.

        Refer to his tattoo on his arm.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          Where can I find the photo of the tattoo.

          • ajamazin says:

            Sandra E. Graham,

            Zimmerman has a tattoo of the two theatrical masks on his arm – the

            crying mask and the laughing mask.

            The two masks associated with drama represent the traditionalgenericdivision betweencomedyandtragedy. They are symbols of theancient GreekMuses, ThaliaandMelpomene. Thalia was the Muse of comedy (the laughing face), while Melpomene was the Muse of tragedy (the weeping face).

            Never underestimate Zimmerman.

            The two theatrical masks could also stand for “play now, pay later” , which are gang tattoos.


          • Sandra E. Graham says:

            All the worlds a stage and the men and women merely players. Shakespeare. George Zimmermans tenet I will be what you want me to be.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          A chameleon, to me – the ability to change personality to fit the circumstances, IMO (not a personality-disorder professional).

    • TruthBTold says:

      Great post Angela,

      GZ is definitely detached from reality among other things. To say towards the end of the SH interview, when he was trying to clean up his earlier damaging remarks, that he wish there was something, anything that he could have done differently that wouldn’t have put him in the position where he had to take his life. Well I be damn. Let’s see, how about remaining in your truck and let those with real legal authority to handle that. I remember also his brother RZjr., interview on Piers Morgan where he stated that the whole situation potentially could have been avoided if someone would have come out and helped. *blank stare* Just unbelievable. He also stated that GZ was barely conscious. Laughable.

    • “Respect my Authority!” Eric Cartman

  55. Justkiddin* says:

    Even if the witnesses discussed the case in some of the original reports the witnesses made mention the police told them “the screamer had been GZ” so imo witnesses then just assumed GZ was the victim. I am not saying the media did not help influence some of the changes in testimony but maybe the witnesses then realized what they said originally had been influenced by LE.

    IMO GZ scared the shit out of TM. Those screams do not sound like a man carrying a gun. Those screams are the kind of screams I would expect to hear when a person is about to die. When faced with a gun. None of us know TM but on the night of his death LE has determined he did nothing wrong so as far as I am concerned the only thug is GZ. The fact that GZ never went back home tells me he knew from the get go he did the wrong thing. Why did he never go back home? This was not national? He had no problem sending his wife home alone, but he never went back. That speaks volumes, at least to me.

    Professor I like everyone else love it here. You stimulate this great grandmother’s mind and to be honest it needs it. I am unable to comment everyday but a day does not go by that I do not read here. Everyone that contributes brings a little something that makes you think. I do not mind the GZ supporters, I do question why they believe every word he says when he is caught often in his own lies. jmo

    • boar_d_laze says:

      It appears the SPD may have put words in the witnesses’s mouths during the first canvas — in effect writing the witness’s statements.

      That’s an all too common practice when “first on the scene” cops draw a conclusion before conducting a thorough and open-minded investigation.

      Certainly all of the other hallmarks of faulty assumptions combined with slipshod police work are here; so why not that one too? Especially when at least a couple of witnesses said they were “led.”

      • The most egregious example of eyewitness/earwitness contamination was Serino correcting Mary Cutcher, her roommate and others that GZ was the person screaming, not TM.

        Little wonder that he’s back on patrol, graveyard shift.

        That kind of investigatory prowess can cause the arrest and conviction of an innocent person while the perpetrator goes free to reoffend and hurt someone else.

        In this case, however, the innocent person died and the perpetrator almost went free.

        I’ll bet this type of police misconduct is far more prevalent than most people realize and police departments really need to focus on exposing the violators and stopping it.

      • boar_d_laze says:

        You and I see the “criminal justice system” universe in a similar way: Too many criminals, way too much system, not nearly enough justice.

        We should have get together some day.

    • Vickie Votaw says:

      I agree wholeheartedly . I feel thankful to have read the amazing amounts of important information shared here by serious people seeking serious answers. It is a beautiful study in human interaction, also, 🙂

  56. chi1224 says:

    Good morning Professor, I was reading a news article today about the Martin case and I saw you were quoted:

    “To the extent that he had some knowledge of self defense, he would have been able to put together a story that made some sense,” said Frederick Leatherman, a retired Seattle defense lawyer and legal-issues blogger who has reviewed all the Zimmerman case evidence. “As he conjured up this story, he didn’t know that a lot of the forensics would not match.”


    Keep up the good work! Justice for Trayvon Martin!

  57. lynp says:

    Getting the facts straight is always good and certainly before throwing stones. OUCH!

  58. TruthBTold says:


    Stop lying. Trayvon parents are divorced.. Even if they were still married, still has no relevance on what happened. Grow up and stop trying to throw shade on that family.

  59. Justkiddin* says:

    IMO GZ is a known liar. Any all statements by GZ are lies unless there is evidence to support it as true. Broken nose, lie. I have read possible and likely. I have yet to read confirmed broken nose.
    Someone up thread said TM’s mistake was not going home. IMO He tried! A flipping lunatic made it a little difficult. GZ is 27 or 28. TM had barely turned 17. Any and all his action if immature is acceptable. TM probably was scared to death. A freaking moron who acts like a deaf mute is following him, not explaining what is up and to top it off he has a GUN! Hmm how would you act?
    One last comment. I believe Mainstreamfair mentioned the witness statements changing. I do not believe it is because of they watched the news. Most of them said at one point or another in the questioning and statement writing an officer said this is what happened or no the guy that was screaming is banged up but okay. The police should have just wrote out the statements that night and signed their names because they influenced what these witnesses said and wrote down. LE took GZ’s words to the street as gospel. They believed a lunatic who imo does not like walking black in a hoodie. But he is cool with hiding like a girl in the back of a car in a hoodie leaving jail.

    • aussie says:

      On the Thursday after the shooting there was a residents’ meeting, with police present to “explain things” and ask for more information, if anyone had any. A few extra witnesses turned up out of this. BUT this means, as well as casually one on one, there was a chance for all witnesses to compare notes and talk about what “must have happened” rather than what they saw with their own eyes. This would go part of the way to why their stories changed, and probably more so than anything they saw on TV.

      • whonoze says:

        Agreed about the comparing notes, which probably happened several times in different casual encounters, and people seeking out other witnesses they may already have known.

        But still it would be unwise to estimate power of TV, and its role in what pomo philosophers call ‘the hyperreal’: the constructed “fake’ reality so juioed up it not only seems more powerful or relevant than ‘actual’ reality, but functions to remake the ‘genuine’ real in its own image. (c.f. Jean Baudrillard, “The Precession of Simulacra”).

      • whonoze says:

        damn geriatric fingers: i meant to type “it would be unwise to underestimate the power of TV”

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          I may not be LE. But, I do know that the best witness testimony is given immediately following the incident. I was taught that you keep them separated as much as possible in order that their testimony is not influenced by others. Smith, Osterman, and GZ all know that too. Yet, right at the scene, GZ and MO were conversing with everyone. So, it was already too late. Don’t blame TV or other media. Blame the handling of this case by LE prior to the Martin family’s persistence that an arrest be made.

  60. Justkiddin* says:

    I am so far behind so I may need to go back and refresh my thoughts. Basically this may be more than my usual 1 comment and run.
    1) I believe GZ ran down the road to the back entrance, I think TM took the path.
    2) with that in mind I believe TM asked GZ about following him but TM did not turn around he still had been heading home. When he noticed the gun he fled the other direction. (according to witnesses)
    3) It never crossed my mind that Shelly went home alone. All I have is WTF? I would kill my husband if he sent me home ALONE after a “thug” had just been shot dead by him. Why did GZ not worry about his wife going home alone?
    Yep there is more in my head but I have to go back to refresh my mind. Old age is not fun. UGH

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      I believe he stock him from the 7″11. Can someone post the video of the 7″11… I believe it was stated on this blog they believe Shellie was inside the 7″11.

    • rayvenwolf says:

      From what I read Shellie and Mark stayed at the station until GZ was cut loose and then they went directly to MO’s home where they stayed until they left R@TL completely.

      • FactsFirst says:

        Did anyone else notice a picture of a woman and a man (wearing a WHITE SHIRT) entering the police station that night?? It stood out to me because a few of the witnesses stated they seen a guy with a white shirt “ON TOP”… Could the guy entering the police station in the white shirt be Zimmerman’s accomplice??? Also, I read a police officer statement saying he took a picture in the evidence as well…. But, I thought the witness took those picture?? Things that make you go hmmmmm…

  61. Arch Stanton says:

    Advice Zimmerman should have followed:


    “However, being a good witness doesn’t require explaining every minute detail about your act of shooting. When you were attacked, you were likely under extreme stress in survival mode and the fight or flight instinct kicked in. Physiopsychological effects known to occur during stressful incidents make you a poor witness about the facts and specifics of the attack. These physio-psychological effects include distorted perceptions of time and distance, plus tunnel vision and auditory exclusion, any one of which can result in an inaccurate report of the event if you try to report specific details.

    Instead of going into detail when speaking with responding officers on the scene, I recommend briefly explaining what the attacker did to precipitate your self-defense actions plus pointing out evidence that could be lost or overlooked and identifying witnesses to the event. Next, state that you would like the counsel
    of an attorney before you give a formal statement, a written statement or even a tape-recorded statement. Once you’ve said that, keeping your mouth shut is likely the best approach. You have been a good witness and cooperated with the police. You have reported the crime committed against you, and frankly that is as far as you need to go at that time.”

    • Up until the time of Zimmerman’s arrest, was he ever read his Miranda rights? Anyone??

    • rayvenwolf says:

      Unfortunately Arch his buddy Mark gave him bad advice. Considering MO’s former job you would think he would tell his good friend to not say anything without a lawyer. Instead he told GZ to “just tell the truth.” Either MO is an idiot(considering why he lost his deputy position I might agree with that) or was so sure of the concocted story that nothing would have happened to GZ

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        I don’t think MO thought he was giving GZ bad advice. He knows the law as does GZ and GZ obviously has a mind of his own. GZ doesn’t take kindly to advice, it seems.MO knows the first officer at the scene and has friends in high places in Sanford. GZ knows the officer because he had responded to a few of GZs reports on the NEN line. People are buying in to GZ being stupid. Knowing both of their background as little as we do, it is my belief that they had a story good enough for the paperwork and the case would go away for the most part. They really only made one mistake and that is that Trayvon was not a so-called bad kid. I remember Serino saying – had he been a bad kid, two thumbs up. I found that disturbing because had he been a bad kid just walking home doing nothing wrong, he would have gotten away with it. MO, GZ, and Officer Smiths made a mistake – Trayvon had parents who cared and questions were being raised. So, it wasn’t that there was a kid (good or bad) who had been killed. Neither good or bad were doing anything wrong. Trayvon did not have a weapon and he was a good kid. Just tell the truth was advice given by someone who had confidence that there would be few questions asked. Because MO is an Air Marshall doesn’t negate the fact he was fired as a County Deputy leading me to think one would be scratching their heads wondering why he has been given free range at the scene when he wasn’t a cop – he was only a friend of GZ that night.

      • Cielo says:

        I feel the latter is true. And in a way, almost worked. Zimmerman was free for an additional 44 days. Surprise surprise! People of all colors and background care about justice! I don’t think they expected the uproar which is why Zimmerman didn’t have an airtight story already scripted. Good! Now there’s an excellent avenue for justice. Sent from my iPod

      • Obwon says:

        …Or… Hoping that a swift conviction would preclude a search for others who may have been involved in any way.

        But, more likely at that point in time, they all realized the deck was stacked in GZ’s favor and wasn’t likely to come undone.
        I keep forgetting that it took 46 days of growing public outrage to get the case off the ground.

        I shudder to think that if GZ had clearly pronounced “Goons”, the growing outrage would have been tamped down as the debate shifted to just how terrible the goons gangs are, and how worthy a goon would have been for profiling.

  62. TruthBTold says:

    One more thought as it relates to the question of whether GZ said the word “coons.” In my opinion and it is very unfortunate, but the n-word rolls off of those type of people’s tongue more naturally or is the word used more than the c-word, especially of a particular age group (emphasis on particular age group.)

    • Dave says:

      I’m old enough to remember when “coon” was a commonplace slur for African-Americans (back in the 50s and into the 60s) but I can’t recall hearing the word used in that sense since the late 60s. Sadly the N word lives on.

      • Dave says:

        Come to think of it, Archie Bunker , the archbigot on the early 70s TV comedy “All in the Family” used the C word regularly but it was anachronistic by then. I guess the writers needed a stand-in for the N word.

    • whonoze says:

      Strictly anecdotal evidence, but my limited experience suggests that ‘coon’ is not as archaic as one would imagine. Bigotry is not necessarily an all-in proposition. People can understand how offensive the n-word is, how marked as abjectly hostile and hateful, yet still want to have a racialized epithet to employ on occasion, especially when talking among friends or family, or even to one’s self. So it’s entirely possible that GZ is all but incapable of even thinking the n-word, but still needs a term for those bad black people who aren’t like his nice middle-aged, middle-class, assimilated buddy Joe. And maybe he picked up ‘coon’ from his charming Mom while she was abusing him…

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        I can’t find any proof of GZ being abused. I found Ostermans statement about it. But, I don’t think he knew GZ as a child. Could be just another GZ fairy tale. After all, didn’t Osterman hold a graduation party for GZ and GZ didn’t graduate. Osterman is GZs friend and GZ still has to lie – to his own friend. Maybe GZ has determined in his own mind that his Mom was abusing him when she challenged him as he lied to someone. In any case, I see no documentation indicating abuse in the Zimmerman household.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Please don’t characterize a mother who has had to live with GZs shenanigans throughout his life as abusive unless there is documented proof. I think she has probably had her world turned upside down over this and she has no bearing on this case.

      • whonoze says:


        You seem to have missed the ‘maybe’ in the last sentence of my post. Perhaps, you inferred I meant sexual abuse. I did not. GZ could have been abused physically or merely psychologically. I’m guessing the later. You also seem to have missed W9’s discussion of the mother’s personality and behavior.

        GZ is screwed up. I don’t believe people are born that way, and I don’t believe in demon possession. SOMETHING happens to turn him in that direction. GZ displays a pretty classic profile of a (psychologically at least) abused child — the pathological lying, the taking advantage of a weaker child to regain some sense of empowerment, sucking up to the crowd at work and ganging up on the Middle-Eastern outsider, his constant state of grievances he demands others to put right….

        And, of course, he WAS an alter boy as well.

        But yes, your point about the report from GZ to Osterman being far from proof is well taken, as it could be greatly exaggerated, completely fabricated, or a figment of his imagination.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          Sexual abuse never entered my mind. The allegation of GZs mothers being abusive has no bearing on this case. In a family with the same mother and father, for instance, each child will have a personality of their own. So, GZ is screwed up and you jump on the – how did you put it – his charming mother blame. GZs cousins allegations have yet to be proven and have no bearing on this case, as far as I am concerned either. I don’t buy into people who use a cop-out like – I am the way I am because of ……… you fill in the blank.

          • ajamazin says:

            The elite of Spain and Cuba [those who are of European origin] keep meticulous records of their family’s ancestry.

            There is equal emphasis on both the maternal and paternal lineage, which we see reflected in their naming conventions.


            Rob [Roberto ZIMMERMANN BRULL] and Gladys [Ines TELL DE PALLEJA ] have only one biological child, a daughter
            named Beatriz ZIMMERMANN TELL, Born: 8 Apr 1976, Chicago, Cook, Illinois, USA .

            Beatriz married Panayotis LIANOS PROTAGORAS on 22 May 2004 in Athens, Anatolikis Attikís, Grecia.

            Name variations are a normal consequence of different cultures.

            [We must remember that while Americans believe the United States
            to be the determinant and dominant culture, the rest of the world may disagree.]

          • Sandra E. Graham says:

            Exactly. The only dominant society is not tethered to boundaries. The only dominant society is the elite.

        • ajamazin says:

          More likely, his father.


  63. A poster on another blog said the following: “They won’t appeal Judge Lester’s decision because it’s not something that can be appealed. The proper way to dispute his dismissal is to request a Writ of Prohibition from the appellate court (again, not an appeal), which has no dead-line (so there is no 10 day or 30 day limit). I can see Mr. O’Mara going to a SYG hearing and if Judge Lester doesn’t go in favor of Mr. Zimmerman they’d easily get the writ and Mr. O’Mara would get a new judge to do a new SYG hearing with, and if this happens Mr. O’Mara would see what cards the State is holding.” What are your comments on this, Professor?

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      I understand that the defendant has the burden of providing evidence of the self-defence claim. But, does he have to actually take the stand. If so, can he plead the fifth when cross-examined for any reason. Does the defendant lead in that the prosecution can only cross-examine him with what has been presented.

    • I don’t know the answer to your question, but I think an appeal within the time limit for an appeal would be necessary or the issue would be waived. Also, he may waive any objections he might have if he submits a motion and Judge Lester exercises his discretion and rules on the motion.

      The writ of prohibition seems to me would be sought in the COA while the appeal is pending to prevent Judge Lester from entering any orders until the appeal is resolved.

      Appellate procedure was not my specialty area since I rarely had to appeal anything but that is my understanding.

      • I’m still not quite sure I understand, but thank you for responding.

      • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

        Dear Professor, I notice a lot of mistakes of releasing docs in the case are emerging. Do you feel that Angela Corey is deliberately releasing files that the public should not see? I believe SPD did a lot of this at the beginning; but no one cares to get to the bottom of it. Heard nothing else.. Your thoughts?

      • boar_d_laze says:

        I believe Professor Leatherman is mistaken (forgive me, sir). I don’t know Florida procedure, but…

        In most jurisdictions, decisions on motions may not be appealed until the case is decided as a result of the “final judgment rule.”

        Some interlocutory (i.e., no verdict yet) decisions can be attacked by a petition for a writ of mandate or prohibition, but most may not.

        Because the Motion for Immunity is like a Motion for Summary Judgment (aka an “MSJ” or “12(b)(4)” in FedWorld) in so many ways, my GUESS is the rules for review are similar and the ruling may not be appealed unless it results in a dismissal; nor (still guessing) is it be subject to writ relief.

        Whether by writ or appeal, it is NEARLY impossible to attack a decision based on evidence and fact on evidentiary or factual grounds. The only practical hope for reversal is a decisive error in law.

        • I’ll defer to you on that issue. Like I said, I didn’t do much appellate work.

          I also never seriously considered asking a federal or state judge to recuse himself or herself.

          In state court, our clients could file one affidavit of prejudice in a case and I occasionally did that. Judges signed off on them routinely without so much as a harrumph!

          Not so in federal court, as you know. The dumbest thing in the world to do in a case would be to piss off a federal judge.

          A lawyer who did that would deserve serious consideration for a Darwin Award.

    • boar_d_laze says:

      If the defense petitioned for a Writ of Prohibition on the Mo to DQ, after the Mo for Immunity was decided, and the petition was granted, the only way to get another Mo for Immunity would be to petition the new trial judge.

      In the absence of obvious and serious legal error by the ruling judge (presumably Lester), or of newly discovered evidence, the likelihood of the court allowing the defense a second crack at immunity is zip.

      FYI, the way these things usually work is that you’ll have a very good idea of who will prevail on any motion from reading the moving, opposing and supporting documents.

      Finally, Professor Leatherman and nearly everyone competent who has looked carefully at the evidence agrees, it’s highly improbable that an unbiased, competent and thorough judge would grant the Motion for Immunity anyway. The evidence for self-defense is so very thin and so very rebuttable, you see.

      • CherokeeNative says:

        Taken from the Florida Bar Journal:

        Unlike most forms of appellate relief, the writ of prohibition is preventative, rather than corrective.25 The 30-day time limit does not apply. Prohibition is a very narrow writ that functions to empower a higher court to prevent an inferior court or tribunal from improperly exercising jurisdiction over a controversy; however, it is not the appropriate tool for revoking an order already entered.26 If a petition for a writ of prohibition demonstrates a preliminary basis for entitlement to relief, the court can issue an order to show cause why relief should not be granted. Unlike other original writ proceedings, once a show cause order issues in prohibition, it automatically stays the lower court proceeding. Fla. R. App. P. 9.100(h).27

        The writ of prohibition is commonly sought when a judge denies a motion for recusal. Carroll v. Fla. State Hosp., 885 So. 2d 485 (Fla. 1st D.C.A. 2004) (noting that prohibition is the appropriate way to review a trial judge’s order denying a motion to disqualify).
        It is also the appropriate method for forcing a lower tribunal, including an administrative agency, to dismiss a matter for lack of jurisdiction.29


      • boar_d_laze says:


        If that’s to me, my sincere thanks for trying to fill me in. I certainly don’t know everything and can use all the help I can get, but I was already aware of the procedure for filing a petition for Writ of Prohibition to “appeal” a denial of a Mo to DQ.

        The subject we’re talking about is how the defense would seek appellate relief if it’s Motion for Immunity were denied, and what the timing would be.

        Because the Motion for Immunity is, at bottom, a request for dismissal, its denial probably (I’m not an expert on the motion or on Florida law) can’t be appealed until after a final judgement (usually at trial) is rendered.

        The subject might have become confusing when Professor Leatherman suggested that the defense might want to petition for a Writ of Prohibition before or at the same time it appealed a denial on the Mo for Immunity in order to prevent Judge Lester from making further decisions on the basis the denial. For the reason I already described, as well as some others, that (almost certainly) will not happen.

        Hope this clarifies.

    • mataharley says:

      diary of a successfulloser: A poster on another blog said the following: “They won’t appeal Judge Lester’s decision because it’s not something that can be appealed.

      Without reading the original comment you referenced, I’m not sure what decision by Lester they think cannot be appealed.

      If Lester denies Zim immunity after a pretrial evidentiary hearing, it can be appealed… which would likely put a hold on the trial. That has been done already.

      If Lester grants Zim immunity, followed by the case’s dismissal, the State can appeal that dismissal as well. This was discussed when a Collier County judge granted immunity to Jorge Saavedra earlier this year. The State reviewed the decision, and decided not to appeal since they couldn’t find any issues to appeal.

      As an update to my prior links about the dispute between the 1st and 4th District courts on denial of immunity hearings due to existence of disputed issues of material fact. The Supremes of Florida did weigh in back in Dec 2010 with some detail via the corrected opinion of Dennis v State.


      In that, they held Peterson (First District) as approved… that the existence of disputed issues of material fact did not warrant denial of a motion to dismiss asserting immunity.

      This ruling weighs in Zim’s favor as any of his disputed “facts” won’t necessarily stop him from getting his pretrial evidentiary hearing. Whether Lester grants immunity, or either side appeals that decision, is something we’ll only know in time.

      I can understand not wanting Zim to take the stand, leaving him open to cross. The man is his own worst enemy. But I also don’t see where he has enough with his statements and videos… most of which seem to conflict… combined with varied witnesses to prove justifiable self defense. I would think he would have to get on the stand to give it the ol’ college effort.

      Without his additional testimony, It truly comes down to a few cuts on the head, a slightly damaged nose, and the veracity of his word. t’ain’t much to hang your hat on, but strange things can happen in court rooms.

      • boar_d_laze says:

        Dennis v. State was very useful, thanks. It unambiguously links 776.032 to 3.190(b) instead of 3.190(c)(4), and holds that any defendant claiming 776.012, .013, and/or .031 who moves for Immunity is entitled to an evidentiary hearing.

        I’d thought perhaps that if the quality of the traverse and demurrer were sufficient the Motion could be denied before a hearing. But Dennis sure makes it seem that… well… no.

        So it looks like we’re heading for a hearing, willy-nilly.

        One thing I don’t understand about Dennis, is if there’s no way for the prosecution to beat the Motion by traverse and demurrer, what’s the point of requiring one? Perhaps the Florida Supremes will get back to us. Or not.

        Reading between the lines, a ruling on a Mo for Immunity which is adverse to the defendant may not be appealed until final judgment is rendered. That is, since the Dennis court held that despite the denial of the hearing, the Dennis conviction stood (denial was harmless error), we may safely infer his appeal was not considered until after the verdict.

        As to a hearing without Mr. Zimmerman’s testimony. Sure. But how. And why bother?

        One huge problem with the defense relying on Mr. Zimmerman’s prior, out of court statements to advance his claim of self-defense is getting jumping the hearsay hurdle to get them into evidence.

        If Mr. Zimmerman does not testify, the defense is restricted to using only those interviews, written statements, etc., the prosecution chooses. I just can’t see making the Motion without having made the decision to put Mr. Zimmerman on the stand… but I’ve been wrong about a great many things in my merry life.

        • The defense certainly would be hampered by the hearsay rule with the prosecution able to cherry-pick what it wants using the Admission by a Party Opponent Rule.

          We might see some interesting arguments about what is admissible under the Rule of Completeness and the Present Sense Impression and Excited Utterance exceptions to the hearsay rule.

          Of course, the judge can let it all in and will be presumed to have correctly decided what statements he can consider.

          I predict that it all comes down to Zimmerman’s Conumdrum: He can’t win if he doesn’t testify and he can’t win if he does.

  64. Professor Leatherman~~since the SYG mini trial will take place close to the trial date, do you think that the state will have passed over all their discovery to the defense? O’Mara will have deposed all of the witnesses/experts by that time?

    I read many blogs both pro and con Zimmerman. I also listen to many legal analysts. Many feel that Z may win the SYG. The way the SYG law was amended in 2007 it leaves a lot open for interpretation. I guess it all depends on the sitting judge how he rules.

    Am I correct in assuming that if Z wins the SYG, the state can appeal the decision? TIA

  65. ajamazin says:

    I did not know Taaffe owned the residence at 1460 Retreat View Circle. [L103 RETREAT AT TWIN LAKES]

    He purchased it from Tousa Homes Inc in June, 2006 for $241,500.00.

    [The townhouse is currently assessed at $82,000+.]


    Interactive map from Seminole Co, Property Appraiser:


    Zimmerman’s townhome, 1950 Retreat View Circle is owned by Denise W. Cummins. [L76 RETREAT AT TWIN LAKES]

    Cummins mailing address is 680 KAREN CT, ALTAMONTE SPRINGS, FL 32701 – 3637

    Cummins purchased from Tousa Homes for $235,600.00.

    Townhomes rent from around $1,200.00 per month.

  66. TruthBTold says:

    Am I the only one that thinks that BDLR and the team are salivating at the mouth in anticipation of cross-examining GZ?

    • TruthBTold~~no you are not alone. I can see Angela Corey’s bright red lipstick smeared all down her chin. Sry, I bad. lol

      • TruthBTold says:


        You ain’t right LOL.

      • bwa ha ha ha ha @ I can see Angela Corey’s bright red lipstick smeared all down her chin. That’s killa!

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          I will make a comment that may evoke emotion in some. It seems many do not like a liberal thinker or a right wing thinker. Very divided in the US. Being from Canada, I think a few more political parties may create a more diverse selection for you all. Not everything in this world is right or wrong, left or right. This is why I have been following this site. I really just can not tolerate the haters. This site offers a respect for one another, it is a real learning experience, and it manages to maintain decorum. For all of this, I thank you all. Now, I had better check out some of the Canadian sites to see if we have the same problem on the Internet. Most-likely. Haters are everywhere. Sad testimony when some people can not comment in a civil manner and resort to name-calling.

    • Nope. Cross examining George Zimmerman is a cross-examiner’s wet dream.

    • Arch Stanton says:

      They can’t win the SYG due to the political nature of the case. De la Rionda will twist words, take things out of context, and generally make mountains of molehills. Beyond that, I expect yelling, pounding, fake outrage, and various other histrionics.

      This is why you never talk to the police or prosecution without an attorney. Subjective accounts such as this NEVER fail to have inaccuracies and inconsistencies. And anyone can make an ostentatious display of them if they wish.

      I have a handbook on self-defense I read recently that talks about how often people defending themselves are wrongly prosecuted, or overprosecuted. This case fits their description to an absolute tee about what happens.

  67. TruthBTold says:

    @SEG and Brown,

    Interesting how we all hear something different. I never got that impression from GZ. He seemed to treat both detectives with equal deference and when they both pushed back against his statements, he shrunk like a kid being chastised by his parents when he wasn’t playing crazy not remembering certain things. Ha!

  68. TruthBTold says:

    Professor wrote,

    “The defense could use the SYG hearing as a discovery hearing to find out more about the prosecution’s case and not even put GZ on the stand.”

    As opposed to having any intention of winning because that would be near impossible if GZ didn’t take the stand right? The same holds true for the prosecution as far as seeing the type of case the defense is going to put on? And when I mean case, I know that the burden is on the State but a defendant asserting an affirmative would want or need to put on some evidence? Correct? Thanks in advance.

    • Defendant has the burden of proof by a preponderance of the evidence at the SYG hearing, but if he’s using the hearing for discovery purposes, instead of trying to win it, he can put on some evidence but not put GZ on the stand.

      Prosecution could go light too and turn it into a cat and mouse game.

      Basically, defense can’t hope to win unless GZ testifies, but can’t win if he does.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        Is MOM planning on using the hearing for discovery purposes?

      • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

        Dear Professor, do you think the prosecutors they have chosen are effective enough. In my opinion they just don’t have the persona to win.. I guess looks can be deceiving..

        Maybe I’m looking at Prosecutor Wendy Murphy she just seems so fired up and a no nonsense prosecutor and Mike Papantonio. They appear strong. These Floridans seem weak; don’t see the strength.

        Your thoughts?

        • They haven’t had much to do except watch GZ and MOM destroy his claim of self-defense. Sometimes silence is the best tactic.

          If I were the prosecutor in this case I would be patiently watching and waiting for the game to come to me. That’s what I believe they are doing and that’s smart.

      • Will Angela Corey take an active role at the SYG or regular trial, or will Bernie de la Rionda run the show? I notice that Zimmerman’s attorneys both ask questions. Will this happen with the state’s team?

      • boar_d_laze says:

        Have to disagree with you Professor.

        The prosecution cannot “go light.”

        They must turn over everything they have before the hearing which is discoverable, because that’s the law. That also means that the defense isn’t going to learn much in terms of discovery; but they might get a feel for how the prosecution plans to present its case.

        They prosecution MUST play to win when they write the traverse and if and when the dog and pony show goes to a hearing.

        The defense doesn’t lose much by losing a Mo for Immunity, so it’s worth the risk even if they believe they have a low probability of success. On the other hand, a loss would be FATAL for the prosecution.

        Prosecutors should seek justice above successful prosecutions, never prosecute without a sincere belief that the defendant not only committed the crime but can be convicted for it, scrupulously observe the defendant’s rights, save judicial time and resources by offering deals as appropriate, etc…

        Once the decision has been made to prosecute, the case should be pursued balls to the wall. Prosecutors play to win, not to tie.

        • I agree with what you said and I’m guilty of a quick slipshod answer. I apologize for being sloppy.

          What I meant to say is that I don’t think GZ will testify at the SYG hearing and that probably would mean the prosecution would not have to present its rebuttal evidence.

          BTW, I am assuming the prosecution would present its case first, even though the defense has the burden of proof.

      • aussie says:

        IF they go for a SYG at all, I believe it would only be for trying to get more funds coming in. It is a big risk, letting GZ destroy himself (even more) vs maybe another $50,000 which is a drop in the ocean if it then has to go to full trial.

      • boar_d_laze says:

        With all the usual caveats, provisos and disclaimers about the abysm of my ignorance of all things Floridian…

        I did a lot of motion practice. If there is an exception to the rule that movant always goes first, I can’t think of it; although that’s not say that this isn’t the one.

        There was an old lawyer (me, actually) who used to say: You never know if there’s an invisible poodle in the room until it jumps up and bites you on the ass.

        • Most criminal defense lawyers would not know what to do if they had to lead off and put on a case. They are so used to letting the prosecution set the table that, if they suddenly had that duty, they probably would forget the table.

          If the defense files a motion to suppress evidence, the prosecution still leads off, even though it’s the defense motion. Of course, the prosecution still has the burden of proof.

    • boar_d_laze says:

      Motion to Suppress is an exception to the rule alright — or at least to the way I wrote it. But it’s not the same as other motions in the sense that the burden is on the proponent of the evidence to prove that it was obtained legally; which makes it’s more in the way of an objection than a motion with the necessary grounds already included in the moving papers.

      One of the good parts of doing defense is getting the cops to go first. They’re cute when they’re testilying.

  69. TruthBTold says:

    Brown wrote,

    “A person from the Bronx does not sound like a person from Brooklyn.”

    Word up! LOL. In all seriousness, it sounded like he said Honda Ridgeline; going on to describe his vehicle after telling the location to Sean, it just got drowned out. I don’t hear what others are hearing and keys in the ignition and stuff doesn’t seem to make much sense.

  70. TruthBTold says:

    Cielo wrote,

    “Is this the same officer who doesn’t know the difference between blue jeans and khaki?”

    Awww damn LOL.

  71. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    Stateoftheinternet posted the Trayvon Martin video on the bullet entry today… Interesting view…

    • TruthBTold says:

      Did he lift this from a previous post on this blog? Hmmmm…….it’s okay if so, he believes in what he believes and can see right through the nonsense; totally dedicated. He’s a potty mouth for sure, but he is funny and so deadpan with his comments. I like him.

      • I’m a fan, too, but he missed the misalignment of the two holes in the sweatshirts with the entry wound.

        • TruthBTold says:


          Oh he did? He mentioned the contact with the two shirts and then it being 2-4 inches away from the wound. I know there were some others you spoke on in your post. I would have to revisit the post to refresh.

      • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

        I just found it on youtube. If already posted. my apology….

        • TruthBTold says:


          No, no, no, it wasn’t posted here. I saw it on my own time. No apologies necessary. I’m sure others will appreciate it if they haven’t seen it on their own already. Thanks.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          Did you watch his Shimmy one — hilarious but a good demonstration.

      • Marilyn says:

        FL mentions the misalignment. The bullet went through the chest area of the garments (that is, above the nipples); while the bullet hole in the body was below the nipple and about 1in off center. In other words the bullet went through upper clothing into a lower point on the body. This is absolutely impossible if george was lying down firing up.
        The offset was approx. 3-4 inches. I read an exact measurement somewhere, I believe in the last big evidence dump with the photos of the bloody clothing(?).

  72. TruthBTold says:

    Arch Stanton wrote,

    “Not going home, confronting Zimmerman, attacking Zimmerman, and not ceasing his attack on Zimmerman. The last one was, by far, his worst judgement.”

    Uh oh, we got a live one tonight that’s coming out of the woodwork feeling strong LOL. It’s no secret you guys bore me with your redundant crazy talk. Silly rabbit, tricks are for kids.

    • Cielo says:

      Yep! They’re easy to spot. A lot harder to shut up. LOL!

      Sent from my iPod

    • Arch Stanton says:

      “It’s no secret you guys bore me with your redundant crazy talk.”

      I’m confused. My statements bore you, yet you’ve taken the time to not only read them, but to comment on them? (It sounds like you don’t have much tolerance for opposing viewpoints.)

    • @

      Uh oh, we got a live one tonight that’s coming out of the woodwork feeling strong LOL. It’s no secret you guys bore me with your redundant crazy talk. Silly rabbit, tricks are for kids.


  73. Arch Stanton says:

    “Much of the background noise during the NEN call is unintelligible..”
    I agree with this part. The rest of it is highly imaginative, but unlikely. In my opinion.

  74. TruthBTold says:

    Brown wrote,

    “I have a theory as to why Taaffe said “If only he answered his questions. It seems to me by my own life experiences that a man like Taaffe, would expect someone like Trayvon should answer. Meaning, young and black. I don’t believe GZ told Taaffe that, I believe FT was speaking from his POV.”

    Good point! It’s funny though because FT claims that TM should have answered questions validates what DeeDee said. TM: “Why are you following me or what are you following me for?” GZ: “What are you doing around here?” as opposed to “Yo, you got a problem, now you do.” Ha! FT is a tool with a lot of personal problems. I can hear FT now, “Whatcha’ doin’ round here boy?” He said on Nancy Grace, “If you plant corn, you get corn.” Nice, huh?

  75. ajamazin says:

    In the 2005 mugshot of Zimmerman, he is NOT wearing clothes issued by the jail, as some have assumed.

    That orange shirt is his very own and has a collar and buttons.

    [Apparently, George enjoyed dressing like a big, fat, overly ripe pumpkin.]

  76. TruthBTold says:

    Tzar wrote,

    “what? lol
    he does not repeat that in the reenactment and he clearly does not say that in the nen call”

    Actually Aussie is correct, he does say that. It happens when they reach RVC? before turning and heading back to where TM supposedly attacked him.

  77. TruthBTold says:

    Tzar wrote,

    “we all know it was coons, I have no idea what game the state and the FBI are playing”

    Really? We do? How can you speak for everyone? LOL. Y’all funny. Needless to say, whether he said it or not doesn’t take away from what happened that night, perception/hidden biases, and his weak self-defense claim.

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      I watched how the media swept it under the rug, quickly. I knew that was what GZ said “coons.” I feel the politicians are going to use this case to incite a race war riot and this is so scary.

      Many of the shows were discussing the case on a nightly basis as soon as the word came down to Al Sharpton accusing him of using his show as a Trayvonn Martin Campaign Headquarters he shut his mouth quickly. The other talk show host of The Last Word he will not even speak of the case after Craig Sonner (zimmerman previous attorney) left him in the studio to interviewing a chair. (so funny) Someone is using this case as a tool and it is so sad.

      Did anyone realize that mysteriously any new information on the case was being release on Friday’s. They would tell the public Monday or Tuesday but everything started being released on the weekend; by the time Monday came around it wasn’t news. This is being controlled by someone.

      We have a dead child and the family wants answers. My concern is I pray the Martin Family gets the answers they will need to heal from this tragedy. GZ permenantly in jail for 40 years to life.

      Can the state ask for the Death Penalty?

      • TruthBTold says:

        @ EIETTO,

        Actually, I watch those shows (huge crush on Lawrence, but that’s another topic lol) often and they have continued to report on developments in this case when they occur. Not to the extent as before, but they will talk about it. The goal was to bring awareness to the case and that was successful by the work of many even though, people like to name drop Rev. Al Sharpton for everything. I totally agree with your last statement. I reckon based on the charge, the death penalty is not applicable in this case. I respect your opinion absolutely, but I don’t believe this to be some politically motivated case or pawn to start some race war. I think when people jump to quickly on race or to the other extreme as far as resisting anything to do about race, we weaken dealing with racial issues.

      • Dave says:

        In Florida, Murder in the Second Degree, if committed with a firearm, carries a minimum sentence of twenty-five years in prison up to life. The death penalty is reserved for Murder One.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          Are the squad car dash cameras always recording. With all the vehicle movement, would one of the dashcams parked on the street have captured anything.

      • Murder 2 is not a death penalty offense.

      • ajamazin says:

        EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion writes:

        “I watched how the media swept it under the rug, quickly. ”

        And they have failed to question the Zimmerman family history.

        There is virtually no investigative reporting.

        Those who expect justice for Trayvon will be sadly disappointed.

    • Digger says:

      Absolutely “coons”! Someone got to somebody real quick and snuffed the word, changing it to of all things, one was “punk”
      How anyone can get a PU out of a COO is really laughable.

      • whonoze says:

        Especially when you have low quality audio like the NEN tape, unless you do the kind of breakdowns I’ve been talking about, words can appear to be things they’re not. The first time I listened to the loop of ‘fucking ___’ I heard ‘coons’ and ‘punks’ alternating. That is, they both seemed equally plausible.

        This has a lot to do with how the brain processes sound, which is much more dependent on pattern recognition than vision is. The ‘p’ and ‘k’ that aren’t really there are what we might call pattern recognition interpolations of the sound waves before and after.

        When you isolate the word, play just parts of it over and over, compare the vowel sound to other exemplars, and so on, you can begin to tell what’s actually there and what’s not.

        I can say with full confidence that it’s not ‘punks’ but i can understand how people hear ‘punks’. On the other hand, the guy from CNN who said it was ‘fucking cold’ after he ran it through a BNR module is just a absolute tool (which rhymes with ‘fool’).

        On the other hand, I still think it’s ‘coons’, but ‘k’ and ‘g’ are close enough phonetically that I have to consider the difference well within the margin of error of both the recording technology and my own hearing. I hear a ‘k’ and NOT a ‘g’, but it would be hubris beyond reason to assert that’s what it IS with any firm confidence, especially since ‘goons’ is plausible in context if it’s the preferred local slang for hoodlums in general or one ‘gang’ in particular.

    • aussie says:

      He said “Goons”… which is the name given to the local gangs in the Sanford area. In the 2nd evidence dump there is an interview with the local gang-expert police explaining all about these gangs. They are predominantly black, and like everyone else they often wear hoodies and “layered clothing” in winter (fancy that!!).

    • Obwon says:

      My take is he actually said “Goons”!

      I think so because it makes very good sense for him to have made a remark like that. I don’t think he’d have been able to reason, that making such a remark would be an extraordinary strategic move, because on his own, he’d have probably shied away from making what could be a racist remark.

      I think someone encouraged him to be sure to say this. The reason? If you google “Sanford Florida Gangs Goons”, you will see why. The goons are a terrible and dangerous gang. There are videos of them carrying on all over You Tube.

      If GZ had not muffed it and said goons loudly and clearly, the focus of the early debates on his guilt or innocence would have quickly shifted to the conduct these people who call themselves goons, making it likely the racist would have drowned out voices of reason with confusion and other nonsense focused on how terrible the goon are. That didn’t happen because GZ didn’t enunciate clearly, thus a great dodge turned into a route as it turned into a possible racial slur, instead of the focus shifting tidbit it was intended to be. This kind of thinking is within Osterman’s pay grade, right up his alley.

      Also, this couples with the fact that on previous occasions GZ does, at least, adhere to the NW rules and does not follow suspects. Until there comes this one night and suddenly we see him so willfully and wantonly throwing the rule book out the window. That kind of behavior doesn’t happen so abruptly without some sort of “coaching”, there has to be someone or some group behind the scene instigating this behavior.

      We can’t see them or their hands yet, because they’re not center stage, everything they’re doing is hidden in the shadows, all we can see is hints and clues of their actions, but no direct evidence of it. But remember, criminal gangs may be bad, but vigilante gangs aren’t any better, they both inspire fear in the public, to gain the power to operate with impunity. But the vigilante’s hide their lawless intentions and pretend to be the communities friends. People fed up with crime, tend to close their eyes to “minor imperfections” of the “hero’s” to the rescue.

  78. whonoze says:

    Speaking of attorneys… Does anyone understand WHY Sean Hannity would offer to pay for GZ’s defense if Jose Baez became his attorney? i thought the conservative media was down with the ‘MSM’ in being SURE Casey Anthony murdered her daughter, believing her to be evil incarnate, and Baez thus the paradigm of the slick amoral defense attorney who tricks juries into perverting justice and letting the perps walk free. Don’t the win-nut pundits like Hannity, and more importantly their audience, think Baez is a slimeball? Why would they want to put their ‘guy’ GZ – a holy martyr to the devil beast of runaway gun-stealing, thug appeasing Al Sharpton led liberalism – in bed with somebody like that? Seriously, i don’t get it. Am I missing something?

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      Because, with the evidence in this case, GZ needs a lawyer who is exactly as you have described. Casey Anthony was set free, wasn’t she.

      • lynp says:

        Whonoze, really enjoyed reading your comments on the case. Looking forward to more of them.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          Don’t know if you are serious. But, I will thank you hoping that you were. I am just trying to did for the truth and many of you are light years ahead of me. Thank you for allowing my participation.

    • whonoze says:

      Yeah, I’m serious. i don’t understand why conservatives would want Baez in on this. I didn’t follow the Anthony case at all, but in the recaps I’ve read, it seems to me like Baez was merely competent and the State just put up an awful case. No cause of death. No DNA. No evidence the duct tape was applied while Cayley was still alive. No chain of custody on key pieces of evidence… There’s reasonable doubt that Casey Anthony killed Cayley. The hypothesis that the child drowned seems quite plausible. And her parents, who are clearly as warped as she is if not more so, had means motive and opportunity to hide the body and cover up an accidental death (or one due to negligence).

      In comparison, there is no (credible) doubt that George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin. While Casey Anthony lied about every aspect of her life, she did not tell the kind of specific incontrovertible lies about the events leading to the death in question that George Zimmerman has.
      Baez is a celebrity because of the Anthony case, but he’s not a later day Clarence Darrow. He’s hardly on top of the criminal-defense food chain.

      So Hannity’s offer strikes me as nothing more than a hyperbolic attempt to juice up some ratings, and so obviously so that anyone paying attention would realize that he (Hannity) doesn’t give a rat’s ass about George Zimmerman. Which I assume to be the case, but I’m surprised he’d act in so revealing a way about it.

      The best i can do to parse an explanation is that, at this point, the right wing wants GZ to get convicted so they make lemonade out of this lemon and try to paint him as a 2nd amendment martyr. Since he’s going to lose anyway, the cause gets a boost if his martyrdom is louder, more spectacular, more in the tabloid eye — for which Baez offers a lot more juice than the restrained Mark O’Mara now also has started to seem weak, and he could take the blame if GZ loses. The right wants the blame to fall on… well they want it to fall on Obama, but they’ll take Rev. Al and ‘the liberal media’ (ha!) as surrogates.

      But I have basically pulled this explanation out of my butt as wild speculation, and I just thought somebody out there who knows more about Hannity and/or Baez than I do might have a better idea…

      • mataharley says:

        whonoze, it’s misguided to classify this as a left vs right subject issue. I am one of those apparently hated conservatives. Moreover most of the conservatives I personally know, who value RKBA rights and know something about the evidence of this particular case, cringe when anyone wants to depict Zimmerman as a responsible gun owner with CCW. Soooo *not*. We know very well that his choices and behavior will be used as an example to punish other gun owners who are cognizant to that responsibility.

        But Constitutional rights belong to all of us… including idiots like Zimmerman.

        This is also the reason that you don’t find NRA representatives, or Marion Hammer herself, jumping on the media bandwagon in support for Zimmerman.

        Yes, there are those in the conservative world who are as adamantly convinced of Zimmerman’s innocence and justification for murder as I am that he’s not telling the truth. But I’m not the lone ranger, I assure you. And I can just as easily point out the liberal division on this as well… Frederick Leatherman’s opinion with that espoused by Jeralyn at Talk Left being a prime example.

        Ergo, this isn’t a matter of political beliefs, but just the different ways people look at the events, evidence, and the defendant himself. Guess what… occasionally people from opposite spectrums of political view points can find common ground.

        So personally, I can do without the political slams. Hey, I can’t abide Hannity myself, and never could. But I can also state with absolutely certainty that while I agree on this issue with many here, I would disagree on a plethora of other issues.

        Then again, that’s what makes this nation great. It’s just too bad that such political differences generally dissolve into personal effrontery and ugly labels applied with a broad brush stroke.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          This is the difference between a right and a privilege. And, this is why alot of people are afraid. A privilege requires testing and standards. As you say, any idiot can own a gun. Question: when someone as committed a crime using a gun, does this person loose the right to bear arms. Just curious. I don’t live in the USA.

        • I actually think of myself as a mix of conservative and liberal, probably what people call a paleo-conservative.

          I believe in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Rule of Law, equal justice for all regardless of race, gender, sexual preference, religious preference or not, and universal human rights for all people. I consider these to be conservative values.

          I also believe in Modern Monetary Theory and its fundamental principle that everyone has a fundamental human right guaranteed by the government to a job that pays a living wage with benefits and I also believe in affordable universal single-payer health care. Most people probably would label these liberal values.

          Most important: I believe in the Golden Rule.

      • mataharley says:

        Frederick Leatherman says: I actually think of myself as a mix of conservative and liberal, probably what people call a paleo-conservative.

        LOL! FL, I didn’t mean to pigeon hole you, personally. Merely to point that that you aren’t exactly known as being a “right wing”, conservative attorney/blogger via the public.

        But I agree… and it’s the problem with “labels” that I mention. I think that most people are their own mixes of conservative/liberal, depending upon the issues. But when it comes to voting and elections, people are going to lean one way or another in their vote, based on which of those issues are more important to them. It’s been the nature of general elections all my life… picking one of the lesser of two evils generally offered up to us.

  79. TruthBTold says:

    Officer Ayala stated seeing a handgun in the front seat of Officer Smith’s car. However at the station and according to Smith, Zimmerman had a gun/holster on the right side inside the waistband of his pant. Smith took possession of the gun, cleared the gun, and placed it in a gun box. So was the gun giving back to GZ but he was handcuffed and then when they got to the station Smith took it? *smh* Confused.

    • Truth B Told~~when Officer Smith wrote up his report, you may note he did not state things in chronological order and I believe this is what created the confusion. At the scene, Smith stated he removed the gun and holster from Zimmerman. When Smith recounted what happened at Sanford PD as per his written statement, he had Z in the bathroom then putting the gun in the gun box and then mentioned Fire Rescue being present. IIRC, it is on page 23 or the doc dump. I do not believe that Sanford Fire Rescue accompanied Z to the PDept.

      (This is to the best of my recollection in how I tried to explain it to party in another blog.)

      • TruthBTold says:

        Thank you Babe. I was wondering if it was out-of-order or something. It definitely can lead to confusion.

      • whonoze says:

        It’s the same Officer who falsely wrote in his original police report that he had no further involvement in the case after transporting GZ to SPD, and falsely implied in that repoirt that he had not heard GZ’s account of the incident, when in fact he was present during Singleton’s entire interview, and attended to GZ, getting him water and so on.

      • nan11 says:

        @ Whonoze
        Blessings and thank you.

  80. whonoze says:

    “I think he says ‘….see my truck… the truck is a ridgeline’.”

    Not even close. There is no ellipsis between ‘truck’ and ‘the.’ The words following ‘the’ are UNMISTAKABLY ‘keys in the.” None of the phonemes of the word after ‘the’ are even close to the components of ‘truck’. Neither are the components of the last word, i.e. he cannot possibly be saying “the keys are in the truck.” For one thing, the last word has three syllables. The first clearly begins with a vowel, the accent is clearly on the second, and there’s no hard consonant (like the ‘k’ from ‘truck’) at the end. The middle syllable is the ‘giveaway’, as it has the least cross-talk with Sean. It’s ‘nish’. There’s a small chance I could be misreading the consonants with some very close in sound: ‘mish’ or ‘niche’. But I’m 100% on the vowel. When you put it in the paradigmatic context of the other phonemes, and the syntagmatic context of “the keys are in the __” ‘ignition’ is the only candidate that both fits the phonetics and make sense as an utterance.

    Also, it’s not just a question of ‘ideal’ phonemes: neither the word after ‘the’ or the last word sound anything like George Zimmerman saying ‘truck,’ of which there are any numbers of exemplars for comparison.

    I have 40 years experience in audio recording and post-production of actualities centering on human speech. I know enough about the underlying science and technology to teach the subject at a University level. I not only have ‘good ears’ I have _trained_ ears. When there are questions about these sounds, I don’t just listen repeatedly to the segment in real time. I throw into audio software, edit down component parts to isolate phonemes, and/or run it at different speeds and/or compare waveforms. Unless you have a similar level of experience and expertise, and have the ability to perform the same sort of analysis, I don’t care what you think you hear, and you have no business comparison your uninformed perceptions to my far-more-informed conclusions.

    Not that I can’t be mistaken. It’s just that I’m several times more likely to be correct about these things than anyone else posting on these forums. And I should point out that exclusion is easier than inclusion. It’s easier to say what a word is not than what it is. This is part of how you get to a good idea of what a word is: by ruling out possibilities people may hear in context, and narrowing in via the process of elimination.

    Check the YT video I put up on ‘punks’ vs. ‘coons’:

    It’s not very successful overall, in part because the reconstructed exemplar of ‘coons’ didn’t come put very well, and I didn’t feel like digging through all the rest of the GZ audio to find better exemplars in addressing an issue I believe to be trivial anyway. But listen to my reconstruction of ‘punks.’ Do you think that would pass for GZ actually saying that word? Can you cut audio well enough to do that effective of a constructed exemplar? If you can, we can argue about what GZ does or doesn’t say when Sean is interrupting him. If you can’t, maybe you’d wanna guess that I know what I doing and figure that I’m probably right.

    You might also want to review my history of posts and check my blog, and notice that I’m not prone to too much wild speculation, that what speculation I do make I generally label as such, and generally (not always) I’m very careful about what I claim to be able to know (that being the whole point of my blog: that much of what people will take as ‘knowledge’ from seeing or hearing audio/video/photo material are mere chimera.)

    So when I say GZ said, “The keys are in the ignition,” that’s not a wild stab, or even a guess. That’s a carefully considered expert opinion, based on proven principles of analysis. OK?

    • Okay, but to whom does he say, “The keys are in the ignition?”

      • whonoze says:

        He says “The keys are in the ignition” to NEN operator Sean, as I noted in the OP, as a means for the arriving officer to identify which truck is his.

        “You’ll see my truck: the keys are in the ignition.”

        “You’ll see my truck” is obviously directed at Sean, as it follows his second labored attempt to describe entering The Retreat, going through the RVC/TTL intersection, past the clubhouses and mailboxes, and then taking the turn to the left on TTL. The following phrase comes right on the heels of “You’ll see my truck,” as an elaboration would, and without a pause or any other vocal markers that he had shifted address to another person.

        Again, why this phrase is important is not that it reveals the presence of a second person, but that it indicates GZ was much farther from his truck at the time than he claimed he be, which helps in establishing hypotheses that fit the timeline but still wind up with GZ and TM back at the North end of the sidewalk.

        • Seems like an odd way to describe a vehicle to someone who doesn’t know what it looks like.

          No color.

          No make.

          No model or year.

          No indication as to the style of truck

          No License plate number.

          No location on the street.

          Just look for the truck with the keys in the ignition, so the cop has to get out of his patrol vehicle to look at every truck on the street to find it.

          Sounds more like what someone would say to a person who knew what his vehicle looked like rather than to a stranger who didn’t.

          Not saying you’re wrong, but what the hell was GZ thinking when he said that?

          Doesn’t make sense, which is why I thought he intended someone else hear what he said.

    • Arch Stanton says:

      “So when I say GZ said, “The keys are in the ignition,” that’s not a wild stab, or even a guess. That’s a carefully considered expert opinion, based on proven principles of analysis. OK?”

      Have you been subpoena’d yet?

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      Having said all that you have and you believe the word to be ignition rather than truck by professional means, why would GZ tell the despatcher the keys are in the ignition. I don’t know much about law enforcement. But, if I were a cop, I would prefer a license plate number rather than looking inside every truck to figure out where GZ is or will be. Make and model would be good, too. On a rainy night, I don’t think police want to get out of a squad car to peek in windows. Makes no sense since the ignition happens to be in the truck. Right (Question Mark).

      • Brown says:


        I know you have stated your creds. I have a question as to the sounds of words, vowels etc. Sometimes people who speak 2 or more languages, are not saying to themselves, ok let me make sure my plosives are accurate because this call might be used against me in a murder case. Some spanish people I know will say chair, but comes out sounding like CHer, or Share. Southern people say here without no h. Whatcha doing round here sounds like ear. A person from the Bronx does not sound like a person from Brooklyn. I live in Texas and some people here can detect that I am from NY. Depending on who I am speaking to I can sound Spanish or from my hometown of Bklyn, NY.

        Also noted IIRC GZ has problems with his tonsils. He was also on medication that may have slurred his speech.
        GZ grew up in different places. Isn’t it possible that he doesn’t have the diction that is required for perfect english?

        On a side note, he did pronouce Black accurately.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          You are right about language. When I was in Britain, many thought I was Australian (I am Canadian). It is the same all around the world. He seems to be quite eloquent when on the stand, when speaking with the police. You know about speech patterns. When GZ speaks with Serino, and other male officers he keeps his cool. But, listen to his answers when Serino and Singleton are challenging him. He sounds to my untrained ear quite at ease with Serino. If he doesn’t want to answer a question or is challenged, he just says – I don’t know. But, when Singleton presses him, his voice has an angrier tone to it. I don’t think he likes to be challenged by women. Maybe the prosecution should get a woman lawyer to ask the hard questions if he takes the stand. His answers may be more animated and revealing. Your thoughts.

          • Brown says:

            You are so on point. I caught that also when he was being questioned by Singleton. His response was,, it is so hard to get the sound via typed words. His response to her question was like look you idiot I am telling you slowly and saying my words clearly so I don’t have to repeat myself tone, if that makes any sense.
            I also agree with you that a female prosecutor should do the hard line questioning. I also noted that when he was talking to the female officer about insurance and she had an authoritive look of her. His tone was like did you have to shoot someone, like he was a fellow officer to her recounting their day together. He seem to me he firmly believe he was one of them.

          • Sandra E. Graham says:

            He also told her that she probably never had to shoot anyone because she is intimidating. Your description about his attitude toward Singleton is what I heard too.

          • Sandra E. Graham says:

            I don’t think we are ever going to hear from him again except through his attorney, IMO.

          • Cielo says:

            George keep quiet? Are you serious? As money continues to slide away, he will do something outrageous to get his blind followers to send more money. But like a slapstick civ routine, he will do something to shoot himself I’m the foot and the put that foot in his mouth.

            Sent from my iPod

          • Brown says:

            I forgot to add that to my post to Sandra. GZ can be quiet when he needs to be for himself. But I think the more he HAS to keep his mouth shut per O’mara, the more he won’t be able to contain himself.

          • Sandra E. Graham says:

            I find myself,sitting at the computer and laughing out loud after reading your comment. What was I thinking!!!

          • Brown says:

            O’mara has been testing the waters. Put up a website. Let him do a interview. Tried to clean up the first one by trying to get on with Walters. Posting a possible Syg hearing on his website then two days later saying there will be a SYG hearing. Followed by a media announcement this coming Monday. I wonder if O’mara has lost control of his client? Are his interns seeing all the work that has been done on the internet debunking alot of what GZ has stated? Lots and lots of questions……

      • Dave says:

        And if GZ isn’t near the truck what difference does the truck make to the cops?

      • Cielo says:

        Dang I hate automatic spellers! I meant comedy routine, shooting himself in the foot! Sigh!

      • whonoze says:

        FL: “Seems like an odd way to describe a vehicle to someone who doesn’t know what it looks like.”

        SEG: “I don’t think police want to get out of a squad car to peek in windows. Makes no sense…”

        You’ve been following the Martin/Zimmerman case for how many months, and you’re still expecting NOT be odd George is odd, still expecting him to make sense?

        (You guys are making this too easy…)

        Color, make,model or year, style license plate…. Please. The dude can’t even remember the name of the main through street in his 3 street community. Operator Sean knows the correct address of the Retreat’s clubhouse, but GZ doesn’t. He stumbles repeatedly trying to describe the truck’s location:

        GZ: When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the clubhouse.
        Sean: So it’s on the lefthand side from the clubhouse?
        GZ: No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left…uh you go straight in, don’t turn, and make a left.

        Three times here and he can’t make it clear. He tries again near the end of the call, just before the phrase in question.

        GZ: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, they’ll see my truck.

        Of course, he’s actually wrong here. They would pass the mailboxes before they make the left. This had us all confused before we had photos that showed definitive where the mailboxes are.

        Sean apparently just gives up trying to these directions clear after GZ’s fifth vague attempt, so he says:

        Sean: What address are you parked in front of?
        GZ: I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.

        Thus allowing GZ to step into his magic time machine and offer this query as his motivation for something he did about 60 seconds before the question was uttered. But here he’s actually lying. He can’t give Sean an approximate address because at this point he’s nowhere near the damn truck, and he doesn’t have the street numbering system mapped in his brain.

        Throughout the NEN call, at points where he has no reason to lie or be secretive, he fails to mention details you’d think any observant person would. He says TM is running toward the other entrance. Sean asks, “Which way is he running?” Like describe the path. GZ doesn’t say “East down the sidewalk”, or “South down this main street I’m on I can’t remember the name of” or “Down the sidewalk between the two rows of buildings.” Again, he just repeats himself. “The back entrance.”

        SEG: “I don’t know much about law enforcement…”
        Surprise! Neither does George Zimmerman. Which probably qualifies him for a job with the SPD, if you’ve read Smith’s and Ayala’s ludicrously brief vague and woefully incomplete police reports.

        AS: “Have you been subpoena’d yet?”
        No, but then i haven’t taken a two-by-four upside the head of someone who thinks Trayvon martin made a bad decision by attacking George Zimmerman. Yet.
        But seriously, there are people who know a lot more about this than i do. Full-time professional dialogue editors. There’s a guy named Jay Rose who has written several books on audio work, (Amazon page:http://tinyurl.com/c3tft3e). I’m nowhere near in his league, so if an audio expert was going to be subpoened to decode those words, it wouldn’t be me. But I clearly know a lot more about sound and video than the people posting on Martin/Zimmerman forums, because what they know is basically nothing.

        • You said,

          “You’ve been following the Martin/Zimmerman case for how many months, and you’re still expecting NOT be odd George is odd, still expecting him to make sense?”


        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          Your right about his bait and switch, smoke and mirrors, divide and conquer, muddy the waters tactic.Could it be he needed a stalling tactic. Is he as crazy as a loon or as dumb as a fox. I teeter on my opinion about this part of his character.

      • whonoze says:


        This has nothing to do with perfect English. GZ’s diction in the NEN call is a tad bizarre at several points, and would say his speech IS slurred somewhat throughout, especially in comparison to other examplars like the re-enactment or the Hannity interview. That said, his speech is not heavily accented.

        And AFAIK, there is no dialect where ‘truck’ sounds like ‘ignition’ or ‘keys’ sounds like ‘truck.’ Besides, as I noted, there are plenty of examples of GZ himself saying ‘truck’ and none of them remotely match the sounds people are interpreting as “the truck is a Ridgeline” or “the keys are in the truck.”

    • aussie says:

      whonoze, I’ve seen your analysis. I know how you arrived at that phrase. But it makes no sense for several reasons
      a) who gets out and leaves the key in the ignition with someone suspicious lurking around?
      b) how did those keys then end up at the T?
      c) if that’s another set, why would he be getting around with2 sets of keys?
      d) in the reenactment he says he told the dispatcher “you’ll see my truck. It’s a silver Honda ridgeline” and we know he does tell the truth in the unimportant things

      after he audibly stops running, can you hear ANYTHING that might sound like getting back into the truck and driving it?

      Because that would make sense: get back in and search around by car, not on foot. (And all the more reason to have the vehicle removed before the police get there).

  81. lynp says:

    Zimmerman made bad judgements that night. Martin made a bad judgement himself. It all happened quickly resulting in a tragic death. George Zimmerman is a slow thinking, slow moving guy. I can’t see him being able to involve himself in a simple conspiracy, let alone a complex one. It is difficult to accept that the world is a violent unpredictable place out there where tragedy, loss of life, illness happens by chance all the time to folk who don’t deserve it but such is the way of the world whether it is Martin, Sharon Tate or going to a midnight movie, No matter the circumstances, Martin is still dead. Zimmerman admitts to firing the shot that killed him. Zimmerman is going to have to pay for this crime or at least I think he will. Or perhaps, he will be found Not Quilty by a jury of his peers like OJ and Anthony.

    • TruthBTold says:

      lynp wrote,

      “Martin made a bad judgement himself.”

      Excuse me. What bad judgement did TM make?

      • Arch Stanton says:

        “Excuse me. What bad judgement did TM make?”
        Not going home, confronting Zimmerman, attacking Zimmerman, and not ceasing his attack on Zimmerman. The last one was, by far, his worst judgement.

      • Dave says:

        Being young.
        Not having a car.
        Wearing a hoodie.
        Going outside unarmed.
        Not smashing Zimmerman’s skull on the sidewalk.
        Then there’s the Black thing.

      • Mike S says:

        I think something that many people forget is that Martin did not live in the complex, he was just visiting and staying at his father’s girlfriend’s place. He was not, as far as I can tell, intimately familiar with the area.

        Zimmerman on the other hand had lived there for years and was a neighborhood watch person.

        This puts a very specific spin on the events. For Martin – he was in unfamiliar territory while Zimmerman was on his home turf. So talking about Martin “not going home” doesn’t make any sense. You have a 17 year old who’s been suspended from school in an area he’s not too familiar with being followed by an older guy for no apparent reason in drizzling rain after the sun has set. We can’t know what Martin was thinking but we do know the environment he was in and how comfortable he might have been at the time.

        Now look at Zimmerman. He’s in his truck watching this kid. He’s on the phone with NEN. He’s got a loaded pistol and a flashlight. He sees the kid run and admits to following him.

        Now stop the action right there. Kid in the rain on unfamiliar ground has an older guy following him, the kid runs and the older guy gets out of his truck and starts chasing after him.

        Now look at Zimmerman. You’ve left the warmth and dryness of your truck on purpose with your loaded weapon (full clip and one up the spout) and flashlight and gone chasing after the kid.

        All the above is pretty well documented and not really in dispute. We know Zimmerman at least started chasing after Martin, he admits it on the NEN call. We know he was in a comfy car and had a loaded weapon and a flashlight. We know Martin had no weapons at all, no flashlight, and had been out in the rain for awhile.

        In that scenario how on earth can you imagine Martin going from a weaponless 17 year old running away to suddenly being the attacker and the aggressor?

        Likewise, on the flip side how can the man who is heavier, 11 years older, and carrying a flashlight and a loaded gun going to be afraid of this 17 year old kid? The man who admits to the NEN dispatcher that he did get out of his truck and started following the kid.

        Think about a prosecutor asking Zimmerman these questions on the stand. Think how Zimmerman is going to look trying to answer these questions. Think how ludicrous Zimmerman’s story is when you look at it this way.

      • verafish says:

        I’m with you, TruthBTold; “What bad judgement did TM make?” There’s NO proof whatsoever that Martin confronted or attacked Zimmerman. By asking “Why are you following me?” it seems that HE was the one who was attempting to defuse the situation. NO indication that he did the approaching, let alone confronting nor attacking. None. In point of fact, Dee Dee’s testimony proves that he was *trying* to get home, away from the creepy guy. It’s clear that Trayvon was afraid….or why even mention the guy in the car?

    • Arch Stanton says:

      I agree with your characterization of George and your discounting of the ‘conspiracy theories’. What I don’t understand is what crime you think Zimmerman committed?

      • Cielo says:


      • “Not going home, confronting Zimmerman, attacking Zimmerman, and not ceasing his attack on Zimmerman. The last one was, by far, his worst judgement.”

        The entire statement you wrote, Arch, is pure conjecture based on the words of the accused. We do not know if Mr. Martin, indeed, went home. He might have attempted to do so and could not get in, especially if his younger brother was deeply into a video game or something; Mr. Martin did not have a key on him. We have no idea who confronted whom. Dee Dee suggested that he turned around and asked why he was being followed, which might lead one to leap to the conclusion of confronting. But then, why didn’t Mr. Zimmerman identify himself at this point? In addition, only Mr. Zimmerman knows if he is being honest that he was “attacked” by Mr. Martin. Finally, it is only Mr. Zimmerman’s word that the alleged attack continued without ceasing. Nothing that you have presented is based on evidence.

    • Dave says:

      IMHO George Zimmerman is a stupid guy who thinks he’s a smart guy. He is sneaky and devious and fully capable of thinking up simple and even complex plots. Whether he could convince others of the viability of these schemes is questionable.

      • lynp says:

        According to DOJ stats, 93% of crime on blacks is committed by other blacks with an assorted 7% left to hispanics, asians and whites. George himself is hispanic. Of the 680,000 deaths to black men in the last 25 years, 640,000 were done by black on black. Very sad. I agree with Geraldo that the hoodie bring a serious negative vibe to the wearer. What happened to escalate this event to a death in the 4 minute? George admitts he fired the shot that killed Martin. This is not a whodunit but what are we going to do about it, if anything?

      • lynp says:

        George is a dumb guy. If he though he was a smart guy, that would surprise me. He knows his school and job path. There is nothing in it that reads smart or successful,

        • Ms Cielo Perdomo says:

          Apparently what he craves are power and acceptance. He can get those with a badge and a gun. Failing to get the badge (hence the “D” in criminal classes) he settles for having the gun. Big Bad George, loved by his neighborhood.


      • aussie says:

        lynp, those statistics only show that most killings involve people who know each other. Robbery and burglary would be mostly done against strangers but those who seem to have something worth taking. Make sense? It has precious little to do with skin colour except insofar as there may be more better of white people than black ones in USA.

        None of this is a reason or excuse for anyone to follow, track and shoot dead an innocent person of any colour. Trayvon was not shot in a gang fight or cross-fire aimed at someone else. He was personally targetted by someone who profiled him.

        You are right, this is not a whodunit. We know whodunit. It is what they call a “locked room mystery” where what we have to work out is HOW it was done.

      • Mike S says:

        I think that’s a spot on characterization. He thinks he can talk and think his way out of situations, then he pushes himself in even deeper. The Hannity interview was from all indications Zimmerman’s idea and O’Mara didn’t want him to do it. And Zimmerman caused himself serious damage. On his prior NEN and 911 calls Zimmerman is afraid of giving out his address, but he does give out his full name and telephone number. Does he not realize you can pretty easily find out someone’s address from their name and town on the Internet?

        The whole first bail situation, with Zimmerman “cleverly” trying to hide all that money moving around by having his wife and sister move it in amounts under $10,000 and talking about it in code. I’m sure George thought he was being exceedingly clever at the time, but in retrospect both the money movements and talking about it on jail house phones was asinine. If he had just said “Move all the stuff to my sister” it’s possible no one would have ever found him out, because a single transfer not involving cash actually isn’t all that suspicious at all. It’s the many movements of amounts just under $10,000 that causes banks to file suspicious transaction notices to the Feds. Speaking of which Zimmerman or his wife may still be guilty of violating the transaction structuring laws, because more than $10,000 of that money was in fact converted to cash (Zimmerman tells her to keep something like $10,000-$20,000 out in cash in some of the calls).

        I think you can see the same pattern at work on the night he killed Martin. Zimmerman undoubtedly did somethings and made up some fake statements that he thought were enormously clever and devious at the time, but which (once again) in retrospect were a disaster. A disaster which he compounded over and over again. Not only did he make up a non-sensical narrative, but then in a “clever” move to claim SYG he did a detailed walk through with detectives the next day – which just gives the state more evidence. And over the coming days he gives more and more statements, each conflicting others to some degree and giving the state yet more evidence.

        If he had just said that night on the scene when the cops got there “It was self defense, he attacked me and I shot him but I shouldn’t say anything else, I need to talk to my lawyer” I think we would be in a very different place with this case. But Zimmerman’s repeated attack of the “clevers” won’t let him go that way.

        The irony of course is that some people think this makes him look honest. I guess it’s easy to confuse honesty with lack of intelligence.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          After GZ was on the stand answering questions from the prosecution, I thought he did a rather good job of testifying. I donèt think he is as stupid as you believe. He has played with the system thus far and is still out on bail working on his case. The trial will not be an easy one for prosecutors.

        • Cielo says:

          Also I think Shellie’s ability to think as deviously is NOT on par with George’s. He HAD to use some kind of “code” with her or she might well have left the money where it was. Sorry but I am not too impressed with her mental acumen or choice of spouse.

          Sent from my iPod

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      Martin did not make a bad judgement. This American citizen was walking home with a bag of Skittles and a Arizona Ice Tea. What bad judgement is that? He lived in the complex with his father and it was his right to walk home to get back to the game. Lets not minimize Zimmerman who is a mentally disturbed person.


      • TruthBTold says:


        I saw this video before. Bless his heart. Good one. I know it is difficult, but don’t let them get to you with their inflammatory and senseless statements.

      • lynp says:

        No, neither Martin lived in the complex but visting the Sr. Martin’s girlfriend with his son, although, he still married at the time.
        James Holmes is mentally disturbed. George is just everyday, ordinary dumb. He admitted he fired the shot that killed Martin Jr.

      • Lynp,

        The Martins are divorced. There is no need to smear them.

    • Martin made a bad judgement himself

      What was the bad judgement? Walking on the public street, walking in the rain, wearing a hoodie, or walking in black skin?

  82. I ran across an interesting summation of events related to Mr. Zimmerman’s NEN call. I will put a link below. After reading this and your last few threads, I am very curious about something. Why on earth would Mr. O’Mara decide on a SYG hearing with there being so many “elephants” in Mr. Zimmerman’s accounts as compared to the NEN call? I don’t see a SYG hearing turning out positively for the defense at all. As little as I know about the law, I can see some serious issues with the stories pressed forward by the accused. Please, Professor Leatherman, tell me what you think the defense team is thinking.


    • This is just my penny’s worth while we wait for the Professor’s response. Hope that is okay.

      I am anxiously awaiting Mark O’Mara announcement and presser which is due Monday. We never know what he has in store for us.

      What does the defense have to gain or lose by having a SYG hearing? Of course the defense will be showing their hand because it is almost a given that Z will have to take the stand. You never know what you will be given unless you ask, probably Mark’s reasoning by going forward with the mini trial. Let’s say that the judge denies the immunity. This may give the defense the opportunity to see what they did wrong and be able to fine tune their strategy before it is presented at a jury trial. We are not 100% sure that the defense will appeal Judge Lester’s ruling not to step down. In the event that Lester is still the judge who is still around for the SYG, a liar does not necessarily make a murderer. I believe that was one of Cindy Anthony’s clichés when her daughter was facing murder one charges. I think that Judge Lester will base his ruling for immunity on the evidence presented and not on Z and his spouse having deceived the court re the hiding of the monies.

    • whonoze says:

      I am inclined to think willisnewton on bcclist is correct in thinking the SYG announcement is theater to keep the case in the news and fuel more donations to the various Zimmerman funds. GZ would seem to have too much to lose by having to make an SYG case, so the defense may not intend to follow through with it. Even if they do get one scheduled, they might cancel it.

      I’m also inclined to think that only GZ himself would want an SYG hearing, and he would want it because he’s delusional enough to think he can get people to buy his BS. So if the defense did go through with a hearing, I would conclude that GZ demanded it, that MOM has completely lost control of his client, and will be looking for the nearest exit.

    • boar_d_laze says:

      Even if the defense thinks it’s quite likely to lose a Motion for Immunity, there’s not much downside but infinite upside if they do manage to prevail.

      Everything in the Motion, traverse and hearing (if there is one) will come out in trial anyway. Might as well try it out in Philadelphia before opening on Broadway.

      My feeling is that if the defense doesn’t plan to put Mr. Zimmerman on the stand where he can tell his story, the Motion is so sure to fail, there’s not much point in making it.

      There’s nothing the prosecution has or will have which won’t come out in discovery long before trial — because no surprises and plenty of time to prepare are the point of discovery.

      The rules governing “reciprocal discovery,” in terms of what and when the defense has to show are looser. But even in cases with much murkier and more ambiguous factual patterns than this one, the prosecution’s will have a very good of who will testify to what with plenty of time to prepare.

      But when the defendant claims self defense, and has given multiple statements, it’s not going to be as complicated as a SODDI defense where the defendant kept his mouth shut.

      FYI, SODDI (pronouced sahd-dee) is the nickname for “some other dude it,” the classic prosecutor/PD term for what law school professors call an “alibi defense.” Now you too can sound like a PD. If you want to look the part, think corduroy sport coat (preferably with leather patches), a blue shirt with a tie your kid gave you, and pressed Dockers.

      Getting back to discovery in this case… The prosecution already knows all the evidence Mr. Zimmerman has; and any juicy new stuff is likely to fall under “expert testimony” which is so discoverable (at least in Cal and FedWorld) the defense provides the expert’s report to the prosecution with plenty of warning.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Is the FBI bound by the Sunshine Law since it is a Federal Department and could this be the Prosecutions ace-in-the-hole if they are not.

      • boar_d_laze says:

        If the prosecution has any evidence discoverable by the defense, it also goes to the public under the “Sunshine Law,” unless it fits within a legislative exemption. It seems though that you’re not really asking about the Sunshine Law which concerns public disclosure of public records, but about whether discovery rules have teeth.

        The prosecution can’t park evidence with the feebs in order to hide it from the defense or the public. It would be a “Brady violation” to hide it from the defense. A Brady violation is serious stuff and could draw very serious sanctions up to and including dismissal.

        The prosecution has no business even dreaming about hiding evidence; and no prosecutor with a shred of ethics would dream of it.

  83. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Me, myself think that Patricia analysis on a prior post hit the nail on the head. I do not think that anyone was with Z that night and believe that he did it all by himself. Now, as far as him and his buddies talking about what they would do to a “thug” if they caught one, there is a possibility that may or may not have happened, but I wouldn’t doubt it. However, Z made the decision to follow and kill Trayvon all by himself and he felt that he could get away with it because the victim was a black male. Let’s face reality, most people tend to believe in the “dangerous black male” because they are bombarded by the media with black on black shootings and for some reason do not want to accept the fact that NOT all young black males are criminals or dangerous. The truth is that there are good and bad in all groups of people, but people do not see that when it comes to black people. Nope, I’m not playing a race card, I’m playing a reality card.

    • Patricia has done a great job of putting this together and certainly influenced my thinking a lot.

      My theory of a second person does not conflict with it. It just adds someone helping find TM, but in the end, GZ finds and kills him without the other person present.

      • Professor~~thank you for your response re the ‘exculpatory’ evidence. As you can tell this old armchair detective is a long ways from writing my bar exam. lol This is why I do appreciate getting answers to my questions from someone who is very knowledgeable.

        I am not into speculating and opining and want cold hard facts. When we do get a document dump, it is like Christmas morning. Sadly, thus far, I have not seen much out there. Surely the prosecution is privy to a lot more than has been made public. How about the toxicology report, phone records of Z, T and the girlfriend, Dee Dee? Have we heard from all the eye/ear witnesses? Will cell phone pings come into play or have they even been investigated? I realize the pings within Twin Retreats would not add up to a hill of beans being that the towers are so close in proximity.

        Not only has Z changed his recollections of what took place, a least 4 of the witnesses changed theirs. I think the latter may have been due to watching the media coverage which in turn made them alter their original accounts of the events. Ahhh the truth is so much easier to recount without changing the facts.

      • Digger says:

        Patricia did do a great job. She must be working on something special to bring in. Where are you Patricia? lol

      • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

        Dear Professor do you feel GZ made a racial slur or negative suggestions towards other races? This bothered me for months.

        Do you believe the FBI would expose to the media what was determined GZ said? They have the best technology in the world.

        Do you believe if it was determined GZ did make such statements the FBI will use it at a later date in a sepearte hate crime? case.

    • CommonSenseForChange says:

      2000% agree. That’s the entire problem in a nutshell. It’s self-perpetuating and it saddens me deeply.

  84. I am asking questions prompted by hearing GZ say to someone, “The keys are in the truck,” and nowhere suggesting there was a conspiracy to commit murder.

    I do not see any evidence to support that theory.

    I am asking if someone drove GZ’s vehicle to the rear exit to prevent the suspected thief from escaping and began working his way north toward GZ. First, they checked RVC and when they did not see him, they decided to check the area behind the two rows of townhouses.

    That person’s intent may have been to assist GZ to detain the person for police, which is probably what GZ’s original intent was.

    But GZ got carried away, lost his temper and executed an innocent person who did nothing wrong.

    I do not subscribe to the rite-of-initiation theory.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      The rite-of-initiation theory was just thrown out there because all of the players are connected in some fashion. A is a friend of B who works with C, who is married to, and on and on. From a common killer through law enforcement connection, and political intervention. I really don’t think you would find a coincidental mix such as this very often (if ever). Intriguing. It is but a theory, after all.

      • I don’t have a problem thinking outside the box and asking questions. I encourage it.

        I’m just explaining what’s been on my mind lately.

        We should be open to other possibilities and look for evidence that confirms or eliminates them before reaching a definitive conclusion.

        A rite of initiation seems a bit far fetched to me but I’ll support it if there is evidence to support it. Haven’t seen any though.

        I have heard evidence to suggest someone else was there with GZ and I am attempting to work through that theory.

      • CommonSenseForChange says:


      • CommonSenseForChange says:

        Put another way…

        “quid pro quo” made nice, nice.

      • CommonSenseForChange says:

        Put yet another way…

        Being neighborly or civil is slowly being perverted into no need to know me, just know my title and back me up ’cause I “helped” you in the past keep the neighborhood safe. Next step, pay me for my protection. (Over the top, I know. Just see this as the natural progression. New, privately paid police.)

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          Ahhhh, yes. Thanks. I was thinking about the 7 degrees of separation and was waiting to find out if Kevin Bacon is Mystery Flashlight guy. LOL

    • Tzar says:

      “That person’s intent may have been to assist GZ to detain the person for police, which is probably what GZ’s original intent was.”

      I have thought of this too
      on the 911 call with the screams, late into it and after the shot is fired, many claim to hear someone walking into the house saying, “he warned me off”

    • Dave says:

      I don’t understand why GZ and his putative accomplice(s) would be so intent on detaining Trayvon. He hadn’t been observed committing any crime and even if he had been a thug plotting some heinous crime against the good citizens of The Retreat he would have abandoned his evil plan when he spotted the alert Neighborhood Watch Captain phoning the cops. He takes off running toward the rear entrance and the honest folk of the community are safe in their homes thanks to the ever-watchful Captain Z. Why stop him? Let those “other” people outside the gates worry about him. (Never mind that Trayvon was a harmless kid going about his lawful business in a place where he was an invited guest.)

      I can see that GZ is stupid enough to attempt an “arrest” in this situation but it’s a bit harder to believe that he could get others (particularly Osterman) to go along with his idiotic operation.

      • If there were others, they may have made the same mistake GZ made.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Exactly — why would GZ follow him. If he were there to watch him to make sure he wasn’t up to no good that is one thing. But, detaining someone without cause is another thing altogether. This is not just another GZ see suspicious activity and report thing. Not this time.

        • Obwon says:

          Actually it would be a crime for a citizen to detain another citizen without a very substantial reason for doing so. “I didn’t recognize him”, would not be enough.

          In fact the fear GZ caused TM, when TM learned he was being followed, would, under these circumstances, be enough for TM to charge GZ with “stalking”.

          Perhaps that was on GZ’s mind? I’m sure with his legal knowledge, he could see what would happen if TM got home and reported to his parents what had happened.

          The likely sequence, that wouldn’t take a genius to figure out, would go something like Ms Greene calling the police to make a report. Under some questioning TM would then describe the vehicle and GZ would have a serious bit of explaining to do.

          What kept surprising me doing the reenactment was that GZ did not take the opportunity’s he had to wind things down by identifying himself. So, it seems to me that after admitting to the dispatcher he had been following TM, perhaps he realized that he couldn’t risk letting this kid get away… Most especially if he was innocent of any wrong doing, because a complaint might be forthcoming. Ah, who knows?

          All this speculation is making my head spin. Everything is on again off again it seems.

    • whonoze says:

      Professor L:

      You wrote: “I am asking if someone drove GZ’s vehicle to the rear exit to prevent the suspected thief from escaping and began working his way north toward GZ. First, they checked RVC and when they did not see him, they decided to check the area behind the two rows of townhouses.”

      If you check the timeline established by the NEN call, and the measured maps of The Retreat, you’ll see that Zimmerman himself had the time to do this on foot, though not within the confines of the NEN call itself. That is, he could have seen Trayvon flee down the sidewalk, and assuming, as he told operator Sean, that the young man was heading for the back gate, he could have gone East to RVC and then cut South in an attempt to ‘head ’em off at the pass!’ Once he got to RVC and turned South, there may have been enough illumination at the lower intersection of RVC and TTL that GZ could see the “asshole” was not crossing it and heading out the exit.

      So he could have continued to head South, in ‘search’ rather than ‘chase’ mode. He might have spotted something and cut through one of the gaps between the buildings. Or he may have gotten all the way to the end of the block, walked around the building containing Brandi Green’s unit, and headed back North up the sidewalk. There was enough time for this, given the gap between the end of the NEN call, and the logical start of the confrontation as back-timed from the first 911 call.

      If it did happen this way, that would put GZ to the South of TM at the point where he re-encounters him, leading to a South-to-North pursuit that would take them back toward the T. This is consistent with W2’s statement that she saw shadows moving in that direction, and DeeDee’s account that both men were winded at the beginning of the encounter. Other scenarios that have all the movements remaining near the East-West sidewalk crossing the T would not involve either GZ or TM covering enough ground fast enough to have labored breathing when the verbal exchange began.

  85. everyoneisentitledtotheiropinion says:

    What is sad you have many who are freinds with Zimmerman lie. A lie goes around many times before the truth comes out.

    • CommonSenseForChange says:

      But with the Internet, you’re a little closer to finding out what everybody knows and can contribute. Never know what you’ll find out from others who might just bring perspectives you hadn’t ever thought about.

  86. TruthBTold says:

    This is a place where we are encouraged to critically think (this should be done generally as it relates to our everyday lives), push back on stuff that’s being fed, pull back the layers and get to the core, think outside of the box etc., but I think some stuff is getting lost in the sauce. I am not attempting to discourage anyone from expressing theories, etc., and I mean this with all due respect but making this incident out to have been some intricate plot involving multiple people, an initiation of sorts, hearing other talking on the call, etc., is just too much for me. It can start looking a little crazy. Don’t get me wrong, there is cause for pause as it relates to the veracity of GZ’s account(s) as we’ve already established, etc. I don’t know, I might have to watch this part from a distance.

    • julia says:

      I agree.

    • CommonSenseForChange says:

      I, too, agree. I think the professor was simply allowing folks to present their theories (hypos as some insist). You never know what we collectively may have missed.

      My peeve is can it be proved.

      • TruthBTold says:


        Oh absolutely and I think I’ve said as much. My comments weren’t a slight or anything negative against Professor Leatherman, his lovely wife, or any other student/contributor here. I am sure they know that. Doesn’t mean I am going to be in lockstep with everything though:). I love and appreciate this forum and we are going to keep it going.

    • ajamazin says:

      The more complex and convoluted the crime, the more likely there will be relatively few charged or convicted.

      Enron is a prime example.

  87. TruthBTold says:

    Mike wrote,

    “For some reason Zimmerman never wants to give his address out when he calls the pollice, and it has nothing to do with being overheard by any suspects.”

    Agreed. Even when he was concerned when he gave it out the night of the incident, TM would have to have been pretty close to hear it. Bizarre.

  88. TruthBTold says:

    Sandra wrote,

    “I just think it odd to have someone visit after dinner on a Sunday night.”

    I don’t think so at all. What might be odd to one, but not be odd to others. I would caution not to get too caught up in this type of stuff.

    “Usually someone would be invited for dinner”

    Just have to confirm something because there is a lot being discussed around these parts. This is just speculation that he was visiting or at the house, correct?

    “I don’t think if I did have a visitor that I would head out to go out to do my weekly grocery shopping.”

    Agreed. Not something I would do.

    “Strange to just lend money without even a short visit with a friend, IMHO.”

    Not at all to me. A person could be in a rush or whatever. I’ve seen this happen where a person drops something off and keep it moving. No big deal.

    • CommonSenseForChange says:

      Yes. I’ve loaned/gave money to those not doing so well that I think need help. They didn’t have to have me over for dinner to receive help. I usually fit those drop-offs of cash/gifts into my paths along other journeys/errands. I do see the point about being in the neighborhood being relevant in that regard, but not required.

  89. C Shell says:

    Professor, I am so glad you are addressing this issue. I thought I was hearing things when I heard that statement when listening to the 911 call carefully. There are a couple of instances when I believe I heard someone whispering to GZ and GZ whispering to someone. I have emailed my concerns to the Prosecutor. I really hope they can have an audio technician enhanced that 911 call because there are some really damaging things on there but it’s hard to make out with just a normal earphone. Good job!

  90. whonoze says:

    I watched that 3rd video. What a steaming pile of bullpuckey from start to finish, but lets cut to the Big Reveal…

    A porch light coming on? OMG!

    Methinks Sawyer needs some remedial physics. Light fall-off is governed by the inverse square law. (http://tinyurl.com/krabt) John’s and Jennifer’s units are 140 yards from the pool camera. So, say you’re on your porch looking at someone who’s 7 feet from your 60 watt porch light. You can see them OK. 140 yards away, the illumination level is going to be 1/3600th of what it is on the porch. Unless they hang 2K Fresnels on porches in Sanford, I’d say the chances you can see John’s porch light come on in the radiation reflected off the wet pavement are nada, bupkiss, and zilch. And a FLASHLIGHT? *scream of anguish*

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      Sawyer is not the only one who have analyzed the clubhouse videos. It was Sawyer who first identified that the time stamps were off by 18 minutes. Check out YouTube CCTV by manybuddies. There are a couple of good ones there.

      • whonoze says:

        And your point is… what exactly? That because other people have analyzed the videos, or Sawyer recognized a timing issue in them, that somehow validates a hypothesis that anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of the physics of light recognizes is absolutely ludicrous? I think you’ve been spending too much time listening to recordings of George Zimmerman.

    • CommonSenseForChange says:

      Here, the porch light is not the main take-away from the mostly erroneous vid (which was released way back in June, possibly before the author had more to work with).

      Here, the main point I see is that the FLASHLIGHT (or possibly a headlight) used by Zimmerman WAS SHINING brightly.

      Why was Zimmerman claiming to be afraid to walk back past the dog-path? Light’s went off? Too dark? I think not.

    • Arch Stanton says:

      Didn’t he also sound like Mr. Garrison from South Park?

  91. Sandra E. Graham says:

    I think the last part of your questions are a good possibility. Witness John probably saw little. After the shot, when witnesses emerged from their houses, GZ and Osterman talked with witnesses. I think the chit-chat planted a few seeds in John’s mind before he gave his statement.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      Mainstreamfair – Mark drove Shelly to the scene. Yet, Shelly was permitted to take the vehicle to get GZ a change of clothes. Why would the PD not want to check out the vehicle and why would Osterman not drive her home. Should she have been driving at all. She must have been totally devastated by the scene and Mark, a good friend, stayed at the scene to left Shelly take the truck – the truck he knew was part of evidence (he was a cop, after all). It was inevitable and predictable to Mark what would be going on at a crime scene and GZ, being the loving, caring husband would not have wanted Shelly to be on her own. No, Mark Osterman stayed (in his report) because GZ didn’t know the process. Caring friend and caring husband dropped her like a hot potato. OR — she wasn’t devastated at all. If she wasn’t, why wasn’t she. As far as GZ not knowing the process – he was arrested before. Besides, the police are very good at telling you what to expect, what is going to happen next, etc.. Osterman was not a cop that night.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        It’s also my understanding that SPD may have forgotten that GZ was driving in the all the post-shooting confusion. Dispatch knew he was driving, but the officers at the scene didn’t seem to know or o recall this if the dispatcher had indeed conveyed this information.

      • CommonSenseForChange says:

        @Two Sides –

        That’s my take. Some of the officers at the scene also seemed to have recognized George Zimmerman as the NW guy since they’d responded to prior calls placed by Zimmerman. If they didn’t realize it on recognition, they’d certainly realize it once Zimmerman “bragged” it.

    • CommonSenseForChange says:

      1000% agree!

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        The officers at the scene knew he was driving for Pete sake. The despatch would have given that information to the cop assigned to check it out. The first one there was Tim Smith. He was not responding to the witnesses calls. He was on his way to find George.

      • FactsFirst says:

        @Sandra… Yes, they sent Officer Smith, a narcotics detective… I guess because Zimmerman said TM looked like he was on drugs or something… But what puzzles me is, I thought the officer was suppose to call Zimmerman for his whereabouts, but when Officer Smith got there, he went to the other entrance while Zimmerman was shooting TM.. Sounds like a crock of bull to me..

        • The front entrance would have been closed.

          Don’t know if emergency vehicles had a way to bypass the closed gate.

          Come to think of it, maybe the the thingamajig attached to the key chain and little flashlight that was found a few feet south of the T intersection was a remote that opened the front gate and/or a garage door.

          I don’t recall seeing a key attached to it.

      • aussie says:

        The only report we have about the gate being locked says it is locked at 7 pm. There is no firm evidence that this actually happens or did happen that night. In any case police normally have some way of getting into such places, eg a keypad code.

        There is no evidence on the light patterns from the clubhouse videos that the police or emergency services had to hang around at the gate. The lights show them driving straight in.

        Many newer car keys are just a stubby little key, mostly a lot of electronics, radio frequency things that at close quarters turn off the engine immobiliser etc. The item was consistently identified as “Honda key” so we can safely assume it is some gadget to allowing entrance into a vehicle. “Honda” must be written on it or it would not have been so named, and they don’t do gate openers, afaik.

        There was an arrangement (of sorts) for police to ring GZ about his whereabouts. This was overtaken by the events, so the police already on the way for GZ’s NEN call were “diverted” into becoming the emergency response to the flurry of 911 calls about a shooting… and they were given the address being given by a witness.

        Not big mysteries. And way too early in the piece for anything odd to be happening to help GZ or cover up anything; at the driving in stage they knew nothing about what happened and who was involved.

  92. whonoze says:

    “He says a neighbour called his wife and then his wife called his friend Mark. Now, why would Shelly have to call Mark if Mark was at their house visiting. ”

    She wouldn’t. So maybe GZ is, you know, LYING about the part where Shellie called Mark….

    • Professor Leatherman~~you are certainly putting what few brain cells I have to the test. I listened to the unredacted 911 calls several times. It pays to listen with ear phones and in that way, you can pick up certain sounds better. I did recognize what I thought was the clicking of a gun. I did not hear any other voices whispering. It was also a toss up between Zimmerman chewing gum or the sound of the windshield wipers.
      I listened intently to the audio you posted here but found the different sounds a tad confusing.

      One thing, IIRC, Zimmerman said that he and Shellie did grocery shopping on Sunday nites to do their cooking for a week ahead. I found it strange to be buying groceries at 7 pm on a Sunday. Did they stay up until the wee hours to do the cooking as they had to both be at work the next day?

      I am still sitting on the fence as to someone else was in cahoots with Zimmerman before he pursued Trayvon although I do try to keep an open mind.

      Is it true that the prosecution can withhold exculpatory evidence from the defense to within 30 days of the trial, but only if said evidence does not aid the defense? I am thinking of Zimmerman’s phone records that may prove he did have an accomplish on the evening of Feb 26th.

      Thank you for all your efforts in making your blog a great place to visit. I wish that I had found you earlier.

      • Sry *accomplice not accomplish

      • masonblue says:

        Exculpatory evidence is any evidence that helps the defense, including evidence that impeaches or discredits prosecution witnesses.

        Exculpatory evidence should be turned over as soon as practicable.

        Evidence of an accomplice probably wouldn’t be exculpatory. If there were an accomplice, the person may not have volunteered to assist in a murder. He may have decided to cooperate and testify, for example, that the purpose of the evening’s activities was to prevent the guy from getting away and detain him, if necessary until the police arrived.

        That testimony would come very close to establishing that GZ was the aggressor.

      • CommonSenseForChange says:

        I heard possibly gum, too, atop a slurring of words now that we’ve heard Zimmerman speak in other circumstances. In certain amplifications, I hear wipers, too, but the schedule for the wipers seems off for it to be intermittent wipers. Could just be my playback slack.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      The phone records will verify whether it happened or not. So, if Shelly didn’t call Mark, how did Mark get to the scene immediately following the shooting. Did Shelly and Mark drive to the scene in Marks vehicle. There is always little truth to his many lies. Mostly role reversal.

      • Sandra~~wasn’t it Shellie who picked up George’s truck? I know she went to Sanford PDept with a change of clothes for Z. I do not understand why Z’s vehicle was not towed in to the compound and examined. Was Z’s hands dusted for gunpowder residue? He was allowed to use the washroom at the PDept. Unless someone had accompanied him, how would they know if he washed his hands? Since this was a homicide until proven otherwise, I found Sanford PD very lax in their investigation. George should have been made to go to emerg and have his blood drawn for examination. You can have a fractured nose without a lot of blood and a fractured nose can be diagnosed sans X’rays. A CT scan to rule in or out concussion should have been manatory regardless if Z wanted it done or not.

        PS, I am a Canadian too and find so much in some of these cases very baffling including the gun laws and SYG.

      • CommonSenseForChange says:

        @mainstreamfair –

        I think SPD was attempting to do the best investigation they could “barney fife” style. They needed an Andy! 🙂

    • aussie says:

      oh don’t be like that, whonoze…. poor George…. always some truth in what he says. She called him from the next room. Doesn’t have to be by phone.

  93. Sandra E. Graham says:

    GZ asks someone to call his wife. This someone does not ask the number. When GZ is talking to Singleton, she asks GZ if his wife is going to be worried about his not returning from the store. He says no. He says a neighbour called his wife and then his wife called his friend Mark. Now, why would Shelly have to call Mark if Mark was at their house visiting. She would probably have to call him because he was out and about. Where would he be if he was not with GZ. I don’t think he would be out sight-seeing while George was grocery shopping. It would be good to know how much money GZ was carrying, if he had a Target credit card or what. He doesn’t mention Target when he tells Shelly to pay off the bills.

    • aussie says:

      His wife was called by Jon W13, the same one who took the photo of his head. He may have done so on GZ’s own phone which would have the number on it. Maybe he said “speed dial 5” , it’s a detail nobody would bother to give in evidence; nor if they had to ask the number. This can come out in cross-examination maybe.

      Mark probably did not want it known he was around at the time. Nor would GZ want it known Mark is sitting with Shellie waiting for him to come back from stalking someone, when he told the police he was GOING SHOPPING.

      My theory is MO was there in the first place to lend GZ some money (he took some out of the ATM immediately before going to visit).

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Could be. Could be GZ was headed to the store for snacks before the game. I just think it odd to have someone visit after dinner on a Sunday night. Usually someone would be invited for dinner. I don’t think if I did have a visitor that I would head out to go out to do my weekly grocery shopping. Does anyone else think this odd. If he was just there to drop off some money and leave, then Shelly would have to call him about the shooting. In that case, GZ would not be lying. Too bad the CCTV cameras did not catch the comings and goings of the vehicles. Strange to just lend money without even a short visit with a friend, IMHO.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Apparently, GZ told his father he was going to the store for milk. There is always a grain of truth in a lie. Milk would probably be a –Mark, on your way over, could you pick up a quart of milk.

      • Dave says:

        Might Shellie have sent GZ to Target so she could spend an uninterrupted hour of “quality time” with Osterman?

      • C Shell says:

        I listened to a snip that LLMPapa did and GZ tells Singleton that he asked the officer if he could call his wife. The officer says no but the “eye witness” calls her and GZ says Shellie called his buddy Mark, who was there!!! It’s also interesting to note that GZ says his wife knew within 5 minutes. That statement leads me to believe his buddy Mark was there at the scene the entire time of the murder. I am really hoping the Prosecutor is making note of these little details. Also, white t shirt issue is very puzzling! Did Mark have on a white t shirt? Or, was it Frank?

      • aussie says:

        Hi C Shell,

        wife knew within 5 minutes because the neighbour called her at 7.20 -7.21. She and Mark then went there, she took away the truck, Mark spoke with police and GZ “but not in detail” according to the only statement we’ve seen from him. They were I believe sitting in GZ’s house about 500 feet away, so wouldn’t take them long to get there.

        White T shirt is increasingly likely to have been Trayvon himself. His sweatshirt was a light grey, which would “pop” as one witness said, appearing white, if the hoodie rode up around his shoulders.

        • Obwon says:

          The reference to “short sleeve” says differently. It’s one thing to miss the color, but quite another to fail at two features of the same garment. Makes me believe that there is most likely someone else out there, who’s being seen and not identified because people aren’t watching closely, allowing that person to move in and out.

          I kept puzzling over “white t-shirt”, until I came across this reference of short sleeve, which is exactly what a t-shirt has.

          Page 16
          Page 17
          Page 18 (diagram)


          Page 2

          Ricardo Ayala SPD
          PO Smith had two people at gunpoint.


          Then there’s page 21
          witness hears pop after police arrive?

          saw body on ground before neighbor says he’s going to call 911?

          And as if that’s not bad enough there’s this on page 23:

          Smith takes GZ’s gun away at the station, after he’s just used the bathroom unobserved.

          There seems to be a whole lot more going on here than meets the eye.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      It’s my understanding that GZ wasn’t carrying cards or money except for some tiny bit of pocket change on this expedition even though he claims he was on his way to Target to shop.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        Interesting! How does a person go to Target to make groceries with no money or credit card? That does not make any sense. Was he planning on stealing the groceries? I don’t believe that Target gives away free groceries.

      • aussie says:

        I know there’s about 400s of pages of evidence, but a lot of it is just lists of evidence items. Actual statements only come to about 95 pages from the 3 releases. It’s worth skimming through all of them to get the big picture. And watching each major interview once.

        GZ had a wallet with him. He took his CCW licence from it to show SIngleton. The wallet was not entered into evidence so must have been returned to him. The 2 quarters in a sandwich bag are recorded because they must have been left in his pocket when they took his clothing as evidence.

        Besides, he DID have his truck with him and nobody knows what goodies he had in there, as Shellie took it away before the cops got to it. May have been $2000 in unmarked $1 bills in the glove compartment for all we know.

        • You forgot the freakin’ code, Aussie.

          That’s $2 in unmarked bills.

        • Obwon says:

          Possible but extremely unlikely. He apparently was in some financial straights before the donations came pouring in.

          In any event, doesn’t it seem odd to anyone that the witnesses are getting things so grossly wrong? I mean, yeah, eyewitnesses aren’t the most reliable evidence, but usually they tend to corroborate each other on various points. Here they seem to be corroborating each other on false points. That seems to say that they’re not false points at all, and that there really was someone in a white tee shirt involved at some point in time.

      • aussie says:

        ooops, sorry Professor.

        glovebox full of “ones”.

        Am I forgiven?

  94. whonoze says:

    Sorry professor.
    Zimmerman says “the keys are in the ignition.” He says it to operator Sean in a continuous flow following “They’ll see my truck.” He is offering this detail so the officer can identify which truck is his. He left the truck hurriedly after “Shit, he’s running,” so he wasn’t thinking about the keys.
    What’s telling about this comment is that it reveals he is concerned the officer might arrive at the truck before he does. Which would mean a.) that he’s not that close to the truck, and/or b.) that he plans on continuing to look to see if the “asshole” is hiding, having concluded that that the “suspect” could not have made it to the back gate and exited the complex. Either way, it’s another part of the NEN call that points to the lies in the ‘re-enactment.’

    And the infamous clicking sound is not a Kel-Tec being chambered. the sounds DON’T match, and Zimmerman doesn’t have three hands (phone, flashlight, gun…).

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      GZ is reluctant to give the despatcher his address cause he doesnèt know where the kid is. So, why would he tell despatch – the keys are in the ignition. Sorry, I must disagree. GZ clearly says – the keys are in my truck. I think it was mystery guys gun everyone hears. It might not be the KelTec of GZs. GZ has another gun (I forget what type it is). Either way, either gun would have been GZs. If GZ couldn’t carry through with his daunting task, somebody would have to help him out. I think of it as an initiation requirement to prove yourself worthy. According to GZs voicemail to Taaffe – doing the right thing no matter how hard it is.

      • Mike S says:

        @Sandra: “GZ is reluctant to give the despatcher his address cause he doesnèt know where the kid is”.

        In previous calls to the NEN Zimmerman would not give out his address – when he was safe in his house and the suspect was outside and not aware of Zimmerman at all.

        For some reason Zimmerman never wants to give his address out when he calls the pollice, and it has nothing to do with being overheard by any suspects.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        I could be wrong, but do you think that there is a possibility that the reason GZ does not want to give out his address might have something to do with stolen merchandise or something illegal that he wouldnt want the police to see?

        I can’t spell her name right off, but on a prior post she brought up the fact that Shellies’ dad had a criminal record for burglary.

      • ziibiqwa says:

        @Sandra……you’ve got it exactly right as per the motive……initiation. And you don’t have to be a genius to figure out the club he’s being initiated into.

      • Playing devils advocate here, Sandra, to WHAT is George being initiated? He DOES seem the psychological type to crave acceptance and belonging, the traits that draw many young folks into gangs. But I can’t imagine what secret organization would require a blood initiation UNLESS it’s some secret society that is racially motivated. In which case, Zimmerman is too “brown” to be “pure.” Like I said, just throwing this out as a question. Your thoughts?

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          I have no idea.as far as secret societies go, For example Freemasonry now accepts every race, creed, colour, and yes – even gender. I was just throwing it out there because there are just too many coincidental friendships going on.

      • CommonSenseForChange says:

        @Granny –

        Absolutely! He’s been in hiding for years for some reason.

    • aussie says:

      I think he says “….see my truck… the truck is a ridgeline”:.. which he actually claimed in the reeenactment he had said, too.

      The gun – anybody who carries does so loaded and ready. The clack sound some think are the wipers and some think are changing gears would be the chambering, at the latest, if not already done at home.

      The repeated 3-clicks pattern is him banging the flashlight against his arm to get it going.

      Aren’t we committing some kind of offence, like slander or defamation or something, naming real people are conspirators in a premeditated murder? should we really be doing it?

      Certainly the guy who took the photo of his head was not a partner.