Jury begins first full day of deliberations in Zimmerman case

Saturday, July 13, 2013

Good morning:

A jury of 6 women, 5 of them mothers, deliberated about three hours yesterday before calling it quits for the day. They will resume deliberations at 9 am EDT.

They sent out a note yesterday requesting an exhibit list. That’s a good sign because it shows that they are taking their responsibility seriously and proceeding in an organized manner.

Impossible to say at this point how long deliberations might last. I’m guessing 3 to 5 days.

I provide a link to livestream coverage in case the jury reaches a verdict or sends out a question.


1,047 Responses to Jury begins first full day of deliberations in Zimmerman case

  1. You all have thoughtful comments says:

  2. looolooo says:

    OMG! My heart is in my throat! Dear GOD, let him be found GUILTY of something!!!

  3. ZCBest says:

    Verdict reached!!!

  4. Jun says:

    This is pure speculation from me

    But I feel Nelson wants a guilty verdict and is waiting to shove her gavel up Fogen’s ass

    and then she is patiently awaiting to shove her gavel up Omara’s ass for disrespecting her court and playing games

    Then Nelson will pop a bottle with her husband and Fogen will do the same with his husband in prison

  5. TheUsualSuspects says:

    The question I hope comes back from the jury: “To find the defendant guilty of manslaughter, what did the prosecution have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt?”

    I think this would allow JN to block the defense from shoving the excusable homicide part of the instruction down the jurors’ throats.

  6. Rachael says:

    Professor, could you start a new entry? This one is almost to 1000 and it is getting really bogged down and – well, you know, just in case.

  7. Katy says:

    It’s Bastille Day today in Australia.

  8. Girlp says:

    While we wait a good discussion on Melissa Hart Perry on the subtle side of the Trayvon Martin Case and racism…. http://www.nbcnews.com/id/45755883/ns/msnbc-the_last_word/vp/52456404#52467656

  9. breelee says:

    I don’t have a hubby to freak out, but scaring the pups to pieces. lol Here’s what I’m having a heavy heart over: They saw the “bloody” back of the head pic. a million times, but No one told them he was on the phone NOT calling for a ambulance. Depraved, hateful, cruel, etc. THAT is why he deserves murder 2 among everything else. I want them to know who he called!

    • KateW says:

      Yes, allowing that kid to suffer like that is cruel and depraved. So the kid was in fear for his life and then on top of that the killer cared about no one but himself. Shows an indifference to human life, especially knowing he was the one who caused the death of a child without knowing really who he was.

    • anita says:

      You’re absolutely right, breelee. This waiting is making me nervous, going to go wash my dinner dishes & watch msnbc for awhile.

  10. Deborah Moore says:

    This song’s been on my heart lately.

  11. Two sides to a story says:

    Omigosh. It’s painful to see the anxious faces of the prosecution attorneys. The defense looked more relaxed. It makes me feel as we did before the arrest.

    I would suppose that the prosecution feels by now that they’ve failed on the M2.

    I feel encouraged that they’re asking a question about manslaughter. Much better than them asking questions about self-defense.

    Hoodies up. I hope we get a verdict tonight, but wouldn’t surprise me if they wait until tomorrow or Monday.

  12. colin black says:

    If they want to still go an deliberate after question an not retire.
    We will have our VERDICT TONIGHT

    THE 13th an I would have been right.

    Well maybe not in Australia.


  13. smokeegyrl says:
  14. Puck says:

    You’d think they would decide the self-defense issue first, because if they agreed on that — therefore an acquittal — they would have been able to go home by now.

  15. colin black says:

    A banner sa
    saying after hours delibs jury asks a question about manslaughter??

    We know!

    When we going to hear the Question a thought 30 mins?

  16. Woow! says:

    Why is W letting his daughters continue to come to court. I have never known for family members of attorneys to sit in court every day of a trial.

    • colin black says:

      Becas both him an his spaw are cele BS

      Dontccha know an after this they think there the next kar dash ins FRONT off a film crew.

      Cos ma dadeee so cool he represented a fool

      An the state took him to school

      An now there gone but not likr TRAYVON

      He an his love will never be gone.

  17. smokeegyrl says:

    Lightning just hit closeby and knock my tv and computer down for a quick second… grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr…

    • elle says:

      Maybe that is really good news SmokeeGyrl. The Heavens are ready with their judgment. However, I am glad you are unhurt. Please stay that way!

  18. degraveegmailcom says:

    The jury has questions about the law.
    mom hedging again.
    “I can give a sort of straightforward answer”

    This is what I transcribed from Jury Instructions by JDN

    The lesser crime indicated in the definition of 2nd degree murder is manslaughter.
    The killing of a human being is justifiable and lawfull if necessarily
    done while resisting an attempt to murder or commit a felony or commit a fellony on any dwelling house in which GZ was at the time
    of the attempted killing.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2_STYhF53o&feature=c4-overview&list=UUnN4ZxVAFoGrg-EhoRxhtTA

    • LeaNder says:

      Yes, surely O’Mara can give a straightforward answer.

      May I remind you that I warned you, we do not want to see any of you back in court, if you don’t concentrate on the “justifiable and lawful” passages and forget about the rest?

  19. TheUsualSuspects says:

    Jury could still be considering M2. They may just be going through each page of the jury instructions to ensure they are following the rule that they be thorough.

  20. Shari/pensive says:

    Verdict watch yesterday was difficult. I took a break and went to a museum. Yesterday was the first day of their new exhibit. It was a nice break with the music and art.

    Thank you all especially Mr. Leatherman for helping me understand the law and why so much evidence against the killer wasn’t allowed in.

    The idea of him being found not guilty would be like re-enacting the Fugitive Slave Acts. Fogen is a private citizen who has given himself the power to stop black people and demand to know what they are doing on the street. He wanted to detain Trayvon for police. Trayvon is not the first black male he followed. I read about another case where he asked two black owners what they were doing there. They asked who he was and he refused to identify himself. He answered by saying that he didn’t want any problems and that it was his job to answer the questions “around here.”

    I really want to know what the jury is hung up on.

  21. breelee says:

    Professor, are the talking heads right, that JN TOLD the jury to look at murder 2 1st so its off the table? And can you pretty please start a new thread? tia

    • newmediacounsel says:

      again think, i am not a criminal lawyer, but think about this practically

      How would they do what you describe in practice if some believe M2, others believe man and someone believes l. how would they decide practically speaking by dividing up as you describe.

    • Malisha says:

      A judge cannot and will not and never does give a jury instructions about what to consider first, second, third or ever. No judge has that kind of control over a jury; if the talking heads said that, they should be re-named “talking asses.”

  22. The jury has ordered dinner.

    What does that mean? Are they going to continue to work and render a verdict tonight?

  23. The note will be sent in to the jury. Everyone will remain on standby waiting for a written response.

    Meanwhile, the jury has ordered dinner delivered to the jury room, so they are planning on working through dinner.

    • RobertSF says:

      Sorry for the off-topic note, but I couldn’t help overhearing that one of your users has problems posting and that you’re having problems figuring out what’s going on about that.

      Are you by any chance using a commercial WordPress provider, such as wordpress.com or wpengine.com? If so, have you considered using a general web hosting provider? I’m talking about the kind of hosting company that simply provides the space and allows you to put whatever you want on it. If it’s WordPress, that’s fine. if it’s something else, that’s fine too.

      The advantage would be that you would have complete control over the site and direct access to the database. It might also be cheaper since most such providers have adequate service plans for around $8 a month. And while using a general hosting provider might be a bit more technical, it’s not a huge leap. You control your general hosting account through a control panel in the same fashion that you control WordPress, and most web hosting providers already have WordPress (the software, not the organization) preloaded with a one-click install feature.

      There’s a free Kindle book on Amazon called “How to Start a Successful Blog in One Hour,” by Steve Scott. You already have a successful blog, but the booklet explains how to set up a WordPress blog on a general web hosting provider.

  24. Sleuth says:

    Did I just see The Wiester daughters leave the courtroom? Was that them exiting from the Fulton/Martin section?

  25. TheUsualSuspects says:

    The prosecution and defense have agreed to wording of note to be sent back to jury room. JN read the note to GZ, telling him that the proposed wording is as follows:

    “The court cannot engage in general discussions, but may be able to address a specific question, regarding clarification of the instructions regarding manslaughter. If you have a specific question, please submit it.”

    All parties agree, so JN has rewritten note in her own handwriting. It’s being sent to the jury, and court is in recess awaiting a response from the jurors.

  26. Deborah Moore says:

    John Guy is looking extremely tense, serious – not worried, but something I can’t describe.
    Oh, let’s eat dinner.

  27. Judy75201 says:

    The jurors have ordered dinner. They plan to deliver a verdict tonight.

  28. Rachael says:

    I’m a fat old lady, my heart can’t take this!!!!

  29. fauxmccoy says:

    west does not look too good regarding this question. …. trying to keep my hopes for conviction contained.

    • abbyj1 says:

      X2, Faux. Keeping my hopes up, too. Asking for instructions, as I understand it, doesn’t necessarily mean that anything is “off” the table, as the pundits keep trying to convince us. I’m keeping the faith.

      • Sophia33 says:

        Me too. Keep the faith.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        no, it does not really ‘mean’ anything.

        logically though, it would be easy as a juror to consider the self defense issue first, because if they bought that argument, then it’s an easy ‘not guilty’ and they can get home having acquitted. i am speculating here, but i would guess that they have considered and rejected self defense at this point. i could be way off base of course, one never knows with jury questions.

  30. Puck says:

    It just seems to me you’d want clarification on something versus something else rather than clarification between one of those somethings and neither of those somethings.

    • abbyj1 says:

      Puck, Well stated. That’s exactly what it means. I refuse to believe that anything is off the table. The jury is looking at options over and against each other. Great point.

    • Puck says:

      I could have phrased that better… Self-defense means not guilty on both the charges of manslaughter or M2. It’s the difference between one charge and the other that might need clarification, not one of the charges and acquittal on self-defense.

  31. abbyj1 says:

    Quick look at GZ sitting at the defense table. He looks absolutely catatonic: staring into space, flat affect, dead eyes. He looks like a . . . .cardboard cut out that MOM propped up in the chair.

    • Beverly says:

      And when I saw him, he almost looked asleep. That may be a blessing for him. Seems like his attorneys have treated him with apparent courtesy. Strange relationship, Im sure.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      the only breaks he takes from that mode (other than falling asleep) are for creepy, inappropriate ‘smiling’. i doubt the jurors missed that.

  32. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    After that closing that MOM gave, I would probably add another 30 years just for torturing the jury with boredom and racist stereotypes.

  33. The lawyers are drafting a question to submit to the jury asking them to ask a more specific question.

    The Court and the jury will be communicating only by exchanging written notes, which will be made a part of the record.

    • abbyj1 says:

      Fred, do you think this lawyerly communication with the jury is also a strategy to figure out what the jury is up to—whether, for example, M2 is off the table? Is this one of the ways that lawyers take the jury’s temperature? Thanks.

    • TheUsualSuspects says:

      Since there may be those like me who look for your posts and responses, here is the wording of the note sent back to the jury room:

      “The court cannot engage in general discussions, but may be able to address a specific question, regarding clarification of the instructions regarding manslaughter. If you have a specific question, please submit it.”

  34. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    My Forehead Tho, I’m thinking about organizing a boycott against HLN when this case is over. And thinking about sending a warning throughout our communities not to use any of the TV Legal analyst either.

    • abbyj1 says:

      Granny, they have been asinine, a study in innuendo and premature ejaculation. I’m with you on this one.

    • My Forehead Tho says:

      I haven’t figured them out yet. Idk if they are intentionally being bias to discourage viewers from a possible conviction to prevent possible riots (we of course no riots won’t happen regardless of the verdict) if in the jury does acquit; or if they are doing the aforementioned to get more viewers and a bigger story if there is a conviction; or if they are actually this bias.

      I don’t think I seen one pro-prosecutor/anti-defense pundit on there today.

    • deetruth says:

      I agree. I already started an email to CNN and HLN a couple times, but abandoned the effort, but I will send it soon. My first complaint with them is the fact that they “legitimize” Frank Taffee (and Ms. Ali). I will never again consider them a credible news outlet (they go in the same pot with Fox).

      Secondly, just about every legal analyst on just about every station has plucked my nerves. Yes, I know it’s all about ratings and the Benjamins.

      • texad says:

        I agree that both Frank Taffee and Ms. Ali add nothing to what could have been a very important discussion regarding race relations in America in the 21st century. They are both relics of a bygone era. Ms. Ali’s claim to fame is that she wrote several books that demeaned both AA men and women. Frank Taffee is the last person who should have ever spoken Trayvon’s name because Trayvon was a young boy who had two parents who loved and adored him-and a village who also loved him. Taffee, on the other hand, had two sons who died horribly and I have never seen him grieve or even say their names. His ex-wife hates him and at least one of his kids wrote a public account of the hatred they had for Taffee. He is so busy defending a man who is not his family that he fails to honor his dead sons by speaking their name.

        There are so many learned people who could have (and still can-if asked) move the conversation forward to a point where we can talk to each other without the screaming and yelling. My personal list would include Na’im Akbar, Dr. Joy DeGruy, Andrew Hacker, Tim Wise, Sonia Sanchez, Nikki Giovanni, Alvin Pouissant, any college student who has done graduate studies on W.E.B. DuBois or Carter G. Woodson or Marcus Garvey or Toussaint L’Ouverture. Or living pioneers like Myrlie Evers-Williams, Maya Angelou, or Marian Wright Edelman. The list is endless. But to constantly go to Frank and Ms. Ali is an obvious sign that the media is telling the story they want to tell for profit sake only.

  35. TheUsualSuspects says:

    I agree with Mantei’s suggestion that the court ask the jury for a more specific question regarding the manslaughter clarification they seek. Basically, jurors, on what part do you need clarification?

  36. Mantei had 30 mins and brought cases and argument. Love him!

  37. Sabrina B. says:

    They are back.

  38. degraveegmailcom says:

    Back on the record!

  39. Rachael says:

    I’ve got it.

  40. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    back in session

  41. Rachael says:

    So what is going on? Are they coming back? I’m lost!

  42. Leisa says:

    I am here but what do you say at this point? One thing I will say is I love Chris Cuomo on CNN. I think he is as fair as one of these guys can be. Loved seeing him on Good Morning America for a long time and appreciated him speaking about this case. Very intelligent man. What will this mean? Just something to get us all excited?

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I will have to starting watching him…..I haven’t watched too much TV this year.

    • abbyj1 says:

      Leisa, Chris Cuomo is very good. He’s always sharp and shrewd, and always careful in his analyses. I respect him so much. Glad you mentioned him.

  43. IMBack says:

    What will the SPD think about their silly investigation once he’s convicted?

    • Malisha says:

      They won’t really care because they have already been assured that none of them will be punished for what was done.

      • newmediacounsel says:

        Exactly. Have their been any civil cases yet? That will affect the tax payers, but not the individual actors unless someone does something to get rid of them.

      • Tzar says:

        Malisha do you have any hope that the state is leaving some red meat on the table for the DOJ or maybe even minimizing their encroachment into an obs. of Just. case so not to tip off the SPD as to the DOJ strategy?

        • Malisha says:

          No hope at all. It would have been nice, though, Tzar.
          One of the reasons I am convinced of the fraudulence of the federal investigation(s) in this case is the fact that the prosecution did not use the three drafts of Serino’s memo, when he was on the stand. It seems to me obvious that both Serino and Singleton (and of course, Lee) have been absolutely assured that there will be no real investigation of SPD by the feds. now or later. They will also be protected full force against the civil suit. NONE of the documents that prove their complicity will be produced; the judge who hears the case will not give the plaintiffs their subpoenas; everything will be a fake.

          Perhaps there will be a settlement without any information going out to the public. I don’t know. But a real investigation and then real lawsuits? I have no hope, whatsoever.

          And there are a lot of bodies buried. LOTS. Prior “Trayvons” never got to the point where anybody demonstrated. There are lots of bodies buried and lots of families marginalized and threatened off the scene and lots of skeletons in lots of very deep walk-in closets.

  44. TheUsualSuspects says:

    Defense is going to focus on the excusable section of the instruction, which is where I think the confusion lies.

  45. Malisha says:

    I wonder what the mechanism is that makes a person like Marinade Dave suddenly start to like someone like Frank Taaffe. Even another racist, who wanted to protect “HIS” country from “Trayvon-like dudes with their pants on low” would probably not begin to like Frank Taaffe from the contact Dave had with him in this case. Is there something in the water down there in Sanford? What’s in the water? Did the Communists poison our water or something? Help me Help me Help me BOOM! Oops. :oops:

    • mrsdoubtfire says:

      Dave’s a full time blogger… …..Taffe is probably a good source of gossip and easy access to RRTL…

    • MedicineBear says:

      Fluoride in the water? Fluoride has been associated with reduced IQs and has been used to make populations submissive and less likely to question authority.

  46. Dee says:

    The prosecution new what they were doing by adding manslaughter at the end of the trial. Because if they would have added it early MOM and West would have been dodging in out so they wouldn’t have wanted to choose it. 10 to 30 years and with gun charges it maybe 15-30

  47. Sleuth says:

    Seems as though the jurors are thinking about Manslaughter. If convicted, he could get up to 30 years in prison.

  48. breelee says:

    Uggg, talking heads saying that JN told the jurors to go through murder 2 1st, so they say that means the jury is now either xing out manslaughter or considering it. Which would mean they then go to not guilty. I’m trying to not read anything in it, but my hopes aren’t as high as they were.

    • HeresLookingatYou says:

      Perhaps they started out with ..
      Does anybody think this fool is not guilty..
      The judge will never know how they actually chose to deliberate

    • Puck says:

      It would make more sense for them to decide the issue of self-defense first, since that would lead to an acquittal on both charges. As I said in another reply, there’s no fine line between not guilty and manslaughter. The State has proven the elements of manslaughter. It seems to me the question would be between those elements and the added ill-will etc. element of M2. I just don’t think they’d be asking for this clarification if they hadn’t already taken self-defense off the table.

    • newmediacounsel says:

      I guess I do n’t know why people listen to talking heads. Why torturer yourself?

      • MedicineBear says:

        I know!!! These pundits are CONSISTENTLY WRONG but they never lose their job or their credibility, it seems. I daresay, though, that they do lose a lot of their audience from those like us that demand accuracy from “experts.”

        I’m thinking these talking heads are dinosaurs with their feet in tar pits — it won’t be much longer before they are extinct (for lack of credibility and audience).

    • newmediacounsel says:

      Also, it strikes me that some people may think murder2 and others may think manslaughter, so how would what the talking heads are saying even work in practice? You would think they would debate both to compare which makes more sense rather than one right the other.

  49. Deborah Moore says:

    Why is George smiling?
    He’s more animated talking to the blond than I’ve seen during the entire trial?
    Is he still clueless?
    Are his attorneys still lieing to him?
    I need answers, dang it.

  50. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    court back

  51. Johnnie says:

    Damn, I’ve been refreshing this page every 5 minutes for updates and then as I’s composing my post, all this action. No more postings for me; back to refreshing (LOL); God, let them give a verdict tonight.

    • TheUsualSuspects says:

      When you refresh, you’ll see this comment. Welcome!

      • Johnnie says:

        Thanks, TheUsualSuspect, for the welcome. Not sure if this will post under your post as it seems sometimes the Replies go wherever they decide to land (LOL).

  52. My Forehead Tho says:

    HLN’s bias is starting to irritate me. This guy just said something similar to, “They are considering manslaughter which is a bad thing”.

    How is that a bad thing -___-

    • Shari/pensive says:

      I am not trying to be a negative nancy but a manslaughter verdict would mean the jury doesn’t believe the state proved Murder 2. When AC announced the capias many people said Fogen was over charged. They would feel vindicated.

      I know he committed 1rst degree murder but I will be satisfied with any verdict. He will finally be punished for his crimes and he will lose his gun. He has victimized so many people and beat charges. If he gets away with it again I see further escalation because he would feel the public endorses his crimes.

      • Puck says:

        Those people would have said Fogen was overcharged regardless.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        people talking about ‘over charging’ are blowing smoke. the charging document clearly referred to lesser included charges. it’s an ongoing academic argument.

        those who fully support the defendant believe that any charge would be overcharging. take comfort in that.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      just my own opinion … but

      the sooner you turn that thing off, the quicker you will find peace of mind. they have nothing of value to contribute.

  53. Johnnie says:

    Error in above post. Marine Dave advised that he and Frank Taffee had become good friends.

  54. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

  55. anita says:

    I am hoping they’re not between manslaughter & not guilty. I think they might be going to get their answer, go back for more deliberations & deliver the verdict this evening. They probably want to go home.

  56. MDH says:

    1. Trayvon Martin is dead.
    2. George Zimmerman intentionally committed an act or acts that caused the death of Trayvon Martin.

    The above are the instructions give for manslaughter.

    • TheUsualSuspects says:


      You’ve only posted a portion of the instruction, thus the reason why the jury is confused. In addition to what you’ve indicated, the instruction asks the ladies to disregard negligence, as well as consider whether the killing is excusable under three circumstances.

      Way too many concepts thrown in there.

      To help the jurors out, I’m whispering into the wind a hint: “Never mind the stuff at the bottom of the page. The killing was not by accident or misfortune.”

      • MDH says:

        I guess I am hoping that they have not found a way for not guilty of M2 based on justifiable homicide and are trying to find out if that same basis applies to manslaughter.

        I am hoping that the issue is depraved mind.

        Not needed for manslaughter.

        MOM’s argument that T would have been charged with assault by deadly concrete is a sham.

        By that basis, any guy who creeps on a women and gets a karate chop to the face can put her in jail.

        What? A women has to wait till its in, to defend herself?

        the first thing taught in self-defense is to bust an accoster in the face and run away.

        In that scenario, the puncher would strike once they are touched and the post conflict evidence would be a bloody nose on the accoster.

        This whole trial is a farce.

        Instead, we are to believe that T had it all planned.

        Run away from GZ

        GZ will follow

        Jump from behind a tree foot high shrub and bust on GZ {on this lie, I get visions of the wee men dancing in front of the 12 inch Stonehenge in Spinal Tap}

        End the game by assault with deadly concrete

        • TheUsualSuspects says:

          I see what you’re saying. Some elements of this trial frustrated me, too.

          The main thing that got under my skin was the law enforcement witnesses saying that following a child in a car then by foot is not a crime. It is a crime. It’s called assault.

          Otherwise, I think the prosecution did enough for M2. There will be a guilty verdict. I am confident about that. Come on, how can six women not vote guilty when John Guy told them that being followed home by a stranger is every child’s worst nightmare? It’s every mother’s worst nightmare, too. The rebuttal closing was brilliant.

    • dianetrotter says:

      2, should be met by him aiming, making sure he missed his hand, and shooting through the hear. No CPR should add to the intention.

  57. Rachael says:

    It seems I missed something? The jury had a question about manslaughter? And did I hear they adjourned for the night?

  58. Johnnie says:

    This site seems to be the only Trayvon friendly place on the internet. I used to visit some of the supposedly Trayvon friendly and neutral pages on facebook but they were soon over ran by the Zimmerman supporters. Either there are a lot of dumb downing going on or they are pushing their agendas and using this case to promote them. I used to love going to Quest for Justice as they, like this site have a lot of knowledgeable and intelligent posters. In fact read there for the entire Casey Anderson trial but for the Zimmerman trial I guess because of the posters who supporter Zimmerman and their efforts to destroy and upset the lives of anyone supporting Trayvon they made it private. So I joined and about 2-3 weeks later tried to log on and got a message I was banned permanently with no explanation. I am assuming I was banned because I didn’t post and someone on the board was taking some of their posts over to the Treehouse (never been there and wouldn’t know the url for a million dollars.) I wouldn’t even want to go there if they are anything like the posters I have run across on facebook. I emailed the administrators to request an explanation for the banning but they never responded. I used to visit Marine Dave’s blog where initially he appeared to be in Trayvon’s camp. However, during the jury selection he announced that some news service had hired him to report on the case. He also mentioned him and Frank Taffee were not good friends. I stopped visiting his blog but checked on it a couple of days ago. I’m guessing the news service that hired him is Pro Zimmerman as he his blog opinions have completely changed. Prosecutors doing a horrible job and the defense doing great. 15 comments; all Zimmerman supporters so I’m guessing the Trayvon supporters left when I left. I notice during the prosecutors closing he seldom even looked up. All I can say is thank God for this blog. I appreciate you all. I hope Trent Sawyer is okay. I check his channel on YouTube and the majority of all his videos are gone and he hasn’t been uploading anything. I miss his, “Zimmerman fans are all fucking idiots.”

    • Rachael says:

      I have NO idea what’s happened to Trent. Last I heard was a week ago Thursday when he was going to try to get a lottery seat the next day, haven’t heard a thing from him since. Hope he’s ok.

      • vickie s. votaw says:

        His YouTube channel has been wiped clean, I did find some of his videos somewhere on you tube. I am concerned about him, I hope he is o.k.

    • elle says:

      We are so lucky here. The Professor and Crane take such good care of us. I also have been wondering where Trent is. I keep meaning to check his Twitter and I never get that far.

    • MedicineBear says:

      I know! What up with Trent? Has anyone heard anything about him? I miss my favorite righteous potty mouth.

      Trent? Where are you?

  59. breelee says:

    I just heard, that’s pretty good news isn’t it? I wish it’d be murder 2, but like most everyone here I’ll be happy if he’s sent away.

  60. elle says:

    I am a horrible, horrible person. In 2007, I had an asthma attack and the EMTs had to save me, and I was air lifted and intubated for three days in the RICU.

    I just got so worked up, I yelled outside to my poor husband that I cannot breathe (meaning I was getting worked up), and the poor man came running in the house to save me. It took two minutes to convince him I am okay, and I will never say that again. Poor guy. I am such high maintenance. I need to stay calm.

    • smokeegyrl says:

      please stay calm… and stay calm for me too! CUZ I’M NOIVOUS !

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Yes, do stay calm.

      And perhaps use the word “worked up” next time with your husband. :)

      I just noticed my husband and I came out “even” today: I was picking things up around the house and he was putting things down. :)

  61. colin black says:

    Hey foggagge look on the bright side
    Every cloud has a SILVER LINEING.

    you finnaly found a cure for your constipated bowels no more howls for you as you try to pass a massive POOO.!

  62. fauxmccoy says:

    i am going to hope that based on the jury question relating to manslaughter that the jury has now disregarded the bogus self defense claim. getting to nail biting excruciating wait now.

    • So they have ruled out bias and ill will and profiling, faux?

      • fauxmccoy says:

        not necessarily — the could be debating amongst themselves now between M2 and manslaughter. it is a strong indication that ‘self defense’ has been rejected, but now way to know until the fat lady sings.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        although i believe m2 is approproate, many do feel it is classic manslaughter, which is no ‘accident’, it would mean the defendant made a series of criminally negligent decisions which ended in in a homicide.

        although i have a preference, i would certainly accept manslaughter. the jail penalty is severe. what is critical to me is a conviction.

  63. Helppppppppp Professor please or Boar one helpppp what does this mean?

    • fauxmccoy says:

      it’s just a jury question and although there is a lot of ‘conventional wisdom’ that can be applied, the truth is that you never know until there is an official verdict.

      since the question involves manslaughter and clarification thereof, it would be appropriate for us to be hopeful that they have discarded any ‘self defense’ claim and are on to deciding between m2 and manslaughter. again, all bets off until official verdict.

  64. Sleuth says:

    Regarding the question, they may be going for Manslaughter. The confessed murderer came in smiling.

  65. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Are they going to add additional paragraphs to the manslaughter definition, description during these 30 minutes?

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      in order to clarify “manslaughter?”

    • Beverly says:

      So they have not returned the answer to the jury; I had not seen the closing part after the question.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      no — the judge just re-reads the official definitions they already have received, she cannot add to or delete from the standard language and what attorneys have already agreed to.

      • Johnnie says:

        Well, can she explain in layman turns. It confused the hell out of me when she was reading the instructions.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          the instructions in written form are much easier to refer to and that is what the jurors have.

          the judge cannot add to or delete from the official instructions or risk grounds for appeal and possible mistrial. that is why she just re-reads what they already have.

  66. My Forehead Tho says:

    It all depends on how the jurors are looking at. If these jurors started off by debating Fogen’s self defense claim and collectively believe that it’s BS, then they may have took it off the table and are debating between murder and manslaughter. On the contrary, if these jurors started off debating whether Fogen committed murder and they think he didn’t, then they may have taken that off the table and are debating between acquittal and manslaughter.

    These pundits are ridiculous

    • Here’s to hoping they took MOM’s advice and started with self defense.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        it would make the most sense logically to do so — if they bought ‘self defense’ then that is an easy acquittal and they all go home. they would not even have to pay attention to M2 and manslaughter.

    • Puck says:

      You’re exactly right. Still, it would be logical for the jury to start with the question of self-defense, since if they decide it was, that’s an acquittal and gets them out of there sooner. So if that’s the case, then the scenario of their debating M2 versus manslaughter would make sense.

      • newmediacounsel says:

        You would think so, but I am a lawyer (although not in this area of practice) and the one thing I’ve learned is never to assume you can predict the way someone will think. Just hoping they don’t vote for open season on people of color like me, because that’s the real issue for me in this case.

        • Puck says:

          You’re right about that. Still, my bet is that self-defense is off the table. Consider the burden of proof for manslaughter — it’s pretty straightforward, and we know GZ did do those things.There’s no reasonable doubt there. The question is, was the homicide justifiable through self-defense? I don’t see how they could be debating between acquittal (self-defense) or manslaughter (which the State has easily proven). There’s no fine line or distinction between those two outcomes that would require clarification. There is, however, a distinction between manslaughter and M2 that would lead the jury to ask for clarification.

          But of course, as you said, no one can predict what’s going on with them.

  67. colin black says:



  68. Sabrina B. says:

    Was that Chief Lee and the missus in the family bench? Not even trying to hide his bias.

  69. colin black says:

    bill shyster rewriting history .

    Saying DD was a dynamite an right witness now



  70. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    court in recess for 30 minutes

  71. TheUsualSuspects says:

    Having been on three criminal juries, I found the Zimmerman manslaughter instruction confusing.

    Final instructions are here: http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/Zimmerman_Final_Jury_Instructions.pdf

    Start with page 8, then skip to page 10.

    • TheUsualSuspects says:

      Based on my experience, the legal wording of jury instructions is frustrating from a reading comprehension perspective. I suspect the jury’s issue is wording in the manslaughter instruction about negligence and the examples of what makes the killing excusable or justifiable.

      If there is any juror who is still confused about the jury instruction after the court clarifies, it’s going to take a lot of guidance from the others to get her on the right side of the fence.

      Jury duty is no walk in the park.

      • newmediacounsel says:

        It doesn’t help that the Florida instructions are really confusing.

        • TheUsualSuspects says:

          Tell me about it. I once had to write on a jury room chalkboard the elements of the rule of law, then make bullet points under each element with the facts in evidence that proved the charge.

          It’s an interesting dynamic. When people get confused or frustrated, they sometimes give up on the law and just go with their feelings. They look at the jury instructions like they are pages of aeronautical engineering equations.

  72. colin black says:

    well manslaughter at the very least

    Boyd says:

    July 13, 2013 at 9:29 am

    I didn’t see it or hear it only based on what I read here. He reversed something. Tzar says situation, and that implies race to me it does. One does not have to come out and say it


    colin black says:

    July 13, 2013 at 4:46 pm

    ffs all he said was imgin if Tray seventeen year old black CHILD was driving about.

    With a loaded gun an saw foggagge walking home in the RAIN.

    Trey lifts the phone
    Hey I jut spotted a real suus Hispanic dude looking around an stuff.

    And your name

    A..Treyvon Martin

    Q Well what makes him suspicious oh a duhno he be lokin an shining a torch in empty houses hideing in bushes a shit.

    Q. Let me know if he does anything else

    A..Sure thing po po man u gotit Holy molly noe the craker assdud be running.

    Chime Chime Chime

    A…Hollymoly this dude be fast .

    Q. You following him sir .

    A for sure man this crakers running toward my Daddy next Baby Mommas house were my next little bro be chillin.

    Q.We don’t need you to do that sir whats your name.

    A Trayvon Benjim Martin Shit I don’t wanna be givvin out no data homes Im to near my momes an a don know where this niggaasedcraka dude be at.

    Q I thought you said he was hisapnic

    A I did

    Q..Do you want the Officers o meet at youe home sir

    A Hell no am a going on a spick trip an gonnanail me a punkassedsmellyhoe

    Just hae them call me an I will tell them were Imat at just listen for the sound of my chopper rat a tat tat.

    An then less then two minutes afer diddconect we realy do hear foggagge screamin g for an begging for mercy.


    Would be sitting rightnow on a capital murder rap waiting to heal if he would live or die.

    An every single person reading here knows hats the truth.



    Boyd says:

    July 13, 2013 at 9:38 am

    Did not Guy say something about race being brought in by the defense during his argument?


  73. mgs710 says:

    You can post on Gatorcountry.com under the too hot for swampgas forum. They give you warnings and delete some posts on there so I try to keep it to a civil discussion. The arguments are mostly from the right though. The mods do there best to keep it to a civil discussion. I could use the help, since I’m seriously outnumbered.

  74. Sabrina B. says:

    So no M2 then? At least it doesn’t look like they think he is “completely innocent.”

    • There’s no indication why they are asking the question.

      They could be deciding between M2 and manslaughter.

      They could simply be really confused by the instructions.

      • Judy75201 says:

        Good point.

        • newmediacounsel says:

          I certainly hope this means the outlandish self defense is off the table, but again, I agree with the analyst that says even that can’t be certain.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            that’s how i’m taking it. if they did buy ‘self defense’, i think they have considered and rejected it. if not, they would have acquitted right then.

          • newmediacounsel says:

            that’s logically what I would do since “why go through the trouble of analyzing manslaughter if you have already decided the self defense is right” So I am not saying that you are wrong

      • Sabrina B. says:


  75. RobertSF says:

    Bill Schaeffer just pointed out that a conviction of manslaughter does Zimmerman no good because it still carries a sentence of 15 years plus another 15 years for using a firearm.

  76. ZCBest says:

    OOOOH Manslaughter ey?

  77. FactsFirst says:

    anybody remember the jury’s instructions on manslaughter???

  78. towerflower says:

    Agreed, looks like M2 may be off the agenda and pondering manslaughter.

    • newmediacounsel says:

      No, that’s not what the question means. It means they could be deciding between the two (M2 or man), could be just confused, and it still is strongly possible according to the analyst of acquittal. Its not a good sign for the defense, but we shouldn’t read too much into it.

      • Tzar says:

        thank you
        you can’t read anything into it really
        my thinking is if they don’t have a stealth in there then there is no way the killer goes home

      • Girlp says:

        That’s what I was thinking newmedia, they are most likely trying to decide if the state has met the burden of the charges we still don’t know anything.

  79. Judy75201 says:

    If they are requesting a clarification on manslaughter, does that mean they’ve taken “not guilty” off the table?

    • mrsdoubtfire says:

      Possibly but looks like they dont believe self defense.

      • newmediacounsel says:

        We shouldn’t read too much into this, but I am hoping that’s the case. From a person level as a black man, I don’t want people to think they have the right to attack me simply because they think I look suspicious.

  80. Santrina says:

    Jurors want instruction on Manslaughter!!!!

  81. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    question from jury:

    “May we please have clarification on manslaughter?”

  82. TheUsualSuspects says:

    Jury asks for clarification on jury instruction for manslaugther.

  83. HeresLookingatYOU says:

    leaning towards manslaughter

  84. My Forehead Tho says:

    Jury considering manslaughter

  85. mrsdoubtfire says:

    Jury has a question

  86. HeresLookingatYOU says:

    question from jury

  87. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Live now

    Jury is going to come in to close for night.


  88. HeresLookingatYOU says:

    activity in court room

  89. Two sides to a story says:

    I’m through posting at news sites since the jury went into deliberations. Has anyone else noticed that the comments at news sites have gotten particularly foul? Only the worst of the worst and most racist Fogen supporters seem to be commenting now.

  90. Judy75201 says:

    I know the jury wants to wrap this up today. If they don’t, will they get to deliberate tomorrow as well, or do they have to wait until Monday?

  91. degraveegmailcom says:

    OT @aussie and Puck and Ay2z funny about the english spelling an’ stuff because I’m an ex dutch canadian and I have a passion for
    english.I hate to brag but love to boast I am also fluent at speaking

  92. Woow! says:

    Has the jurors left for the evening or are they still deliberating?

    Dershowitz is a fool. If he is a law professor and he interprets the evidence as CAC beiing innocent I am glad he is not a judge. I hope he is not ruining his students logical thinking process.

  93. smokeegyrl says:

    We can go on and on and on as to this is not racial and this is racial… If you haven’t lived in the shoes of people of color then you will not know. That’s like someone will never know what it is like to be a victim of rape or an assault if they don’t know… you will not know… You will only know if you hear the stories of the victims that tell it. If you are victim and can tell your story then people can learn from it. My story is out there. Back in 1964, a journalist wrote a book, you should read it. A movie was made from it. Those who were born in the 60’s will know of this movie “Black like Me”.

    • Rachael says:

      I remember we read that book in 5th grade and it changed my life for ever! It had such an impact on me.

      I still know I have no idea what it is like, but see, that’s the thing. I know I don’t know what it is like. I know my son does and I know I love him more than anything and I can see it, but I can’t actually experience it myself.

      But there are a LOT of people out there who don’t even know they don’t know what it is like.

      I don’t really know how to explain it. For example, in my job as a medical transcriptionist, people come fresh out of school thinking they can do the job, but until you know what you don’t know, you don’t know what you are doing. You are doing what you THINK you know, but if you really do know, then you know you don’t.

      I know it makes no sense, but I don’t know how else to explain it.

      Like the outhouse crew. They say oh, well “they” just feel that way and it is a bunch of BS. But the outhouse they don’t know what it is to feel like that so they have NO idea.

      I can’t remember what it was, but something in high school where something happened and it had to do with my son and he said it was because he was black. The outhouse type would say that he would say that as an excuse. Maybe he did, maybe not, but because they it happened, it happened to him, it didn’t happen to any white kids (I don’t even remember what it was) how do you know it wasn’t because he is black? And why would he feel that way if it hadn’t happened before? You don’t know if you are white. It is easy to say what the outhouse “they” say – but you don’t know what you don’t know. My son knows. I don’t.

      I hope someone understands what I’m trying to say.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Makes perfect sense.

      • elle says:

        Rachel, I was a medical transcriptionist. The newbies have no idea what they are getting themselves into. People have no idea how difficult it is. I was working more in research when I “retired” three years ago due to illness (no where near retirement age). I know exactly what you mean. And no one understands you absolutely cannot make mistakes. You do not know until you know.

    • Sleuth says:

      ~ Excellent recommendation. I think the book was written by John Griffin.

      Another good read is “The Learning Tree” by Gordon Parks. One of my most memorable lines from the book is, “People are like fruit on a tree, some good and some bad”.

  94. aussie says:

    Dershowitz has turned up again — wants prosecution disbarred for sayng “killed because wanted to”.


    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      We/re gonna have to stand behind the prosecutors when this is all over. This is nothing more than white backlash the prosecutors have been targeted as “N” lovers. That’s obvious to anyone who knows history and how racism works.

    • ay2z says:

      Geeze. Ders0h must be desperate for attention. What is to stop the state from having a theory of the case and being allowed to present it? Already a bunch of terms were tossed that the defense wanted thrown out.

      • ay2z says:

        (bunch of terms wanted tossed but not tossed by the judge) Sorry

      • Sleuth says:

        Ain’t he got some grandkids to take to one of the Trayvon Martin rally’s being held all over the place? If he’s not too careful, he just might learn something.

        He really needs to get a life. I believe he’s the person who encouraged a group of nay-sayers to start a petition to get Ms. Corey indicted.

    • Tzar says:

      I’m saying though
      why is he telling us?
      isn’t he a lawyer?
      why doesn’t he just get it done?
      honestly, ain’t nobody got time for all his talking

      • Tzar says:

        I actuallyhave more respect for Orly Taitz
        she went to court to get Obama’s Birth certificate and get him disqualified as president
        that’s a lot more than what Dershowitz is doing

      • HeresLookingatYOU says:

        I wonder why folks keep going and dusting him off…
        he is a relic put him on the shelf and leave him there…

    • Rachael says:

      What a wuss. So he said something you don’t like. Get over it. I found it a bit extreme too. I wouldn’t say he killed because he wanted to – he did it because he could – and he thought he could get away with it. Not quite the same as he wanted to, but it is HIS (Mr. Guy’s) case. He can say what he wants. I don’t have to like it and Dersh doesn’t either. Gads.

    • MDH says:

      Dershowitz states, amongst other BS, that the forensic evidence strongly proves that GZ was on the bottom getting his head bashed by a “stronger” younger “man”.

      Wow, if this isn’t a tell for the big black powerful negro man child racist horseshit, I don’t what is.

      Here are some biological facts:

      A) A human does not reach full strength potential till the age of 25 because that is when the rush of hormones (testosterone) has enough time to build muscle mass. A 17 year old has not even reached the peak of testosterone (about age 18) and, as such, there has not been time for muscle to grow.

      B) An adult is not a 17 year old.

      C) A fully grown adult can keep their strength peak well into their 30s by going to a gym and training on a regular basis.

      D) A persons percentage of body fat is not an indicator of strength. One of the World’s Strongest Men winners said it best:
      “in a world of brute strength, fat boys rule”

      A)Shorter stockier men tend to have better leverage and, as such, can move or lift more weight.

      Here are some trial facts.

      GZ was 27, weight 207lbs, trained on a regular basis, and had a short stocky frame.

      T was 17, 158lbs, and had a lanky frame.

      I pity any fool who buys into Dershowitz’s thinking. He should know better.

      • Rachael says:

        Shorter stockier men have a lower center of gravity which is what gives them that better leverage and control.

        • MDH says:


          In a fight you use what you have to advantage and what the other guy has to his disadvantage.

          A loose hoodie is a big disadvantage because it has a lot of tough loose material that can be grabbed for control.

          It also brings the shorter armed guy inside the longer armed guys range so that the grabbed guy can only flail without delivering power.

          The ME testified to a possible strike that did not show evidence of power.

    • Malisha says:

      Dershowitz has become a goon, whereas in the past he was just a weird guy whose mouth had survived the death of his brain. His descent began back in the William Kennedy Smith days when he suggested on national television that the victim of rape should be prosecuted for perjury because the alleged rapist had not been convicted. He’s not very smart any more, but he wants to still be a big important poobah so he comes out with these weird, aggressive, pompous statements that make me think he is actually suffering some senile dementia, if a bit early for his chronological age.

      From the beginning he did not want Fogen to be charged with any crime. It could not have been clearer that his position was a racist one for the simple reason that he didn’t think the killing of a Black kid was serious enough to be considered criminal. He believed that it should be PRESUMED that Trayvon Martin caused his own death — don’t these thugs always do that?

      I am ashamed of Dershowitz because it is widely known that he is Jewish — ugh — we do not need people like him being out there in the public eye spewing hatred. Lord have MERCY!

      He’s angry that the prosecution is winning. He’s racist and he’s arrogant and he’s probably nuts. Perhaps he ate food cooked in aluminum pots or something. Or perhaps he’s just a terrible person. There are enough of THEM to go around.

      Everybody wear a string of garlic and pray for protection from such as him. BTW I don’t think BDLR or any prosecution team members are scared of Big Bad Dershotush or his threats to have everybody disbarred and imprisoned for being mean to Fogen. :roll:

      • truthseeker66 says:

        @malisha, I knew u would post a comment about the derchowitz post. BTW alzheimers is being diagnosed in people in their 40’s. I work in a home for alzeimer and dementia and rece
        ive continuous training. It is hereditary and very sad. Derch could very well have it. One of our residents an attorny was disbarred because of it. She continued to practice…

  95. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

  96. mrsdoubtfire says:

    No quick verdict gives me hope Z will be held accountable for TM’s death. These ladies asked for inventory of evidence entered. They must want back to their families but looks like they are going to be methodical about going through the evidence. If they do that and as John Guy suggested start from the 711.surely they cant fail to see Z’s lies and how Rachel Gentile would have no way of being able to concoct a story that fits so perfectly with the phone records.

    • Aunt Bea says:

      Why should these jurors have to view the clubhouse video for themselves? I though I heard that in closing. Talking about seeing a car or maybe even a person in them. Did I miss a witness who pointed these “movements” out in the courtroom? Do they have to analyze it themselves?

      Yes, I am raggin’ on the prosecution without complete knowledge. Be cool.

  97. colin black says:


    July 13, 2013 at 12:16 pm

    Thank you so much!


    ladystclaire says:

    July 13, 2013 at 1:56 pm

    rnewton, good luck to you and your hubby in making baby #2. Babies are gifts from GOD indeed and I hope he will bless you guys with more.


    colin black says:

    July 13, 2013 at 3:35 pm

    You have a wonerfull birthingday an remember Tray an then we will all stay together in some small way

    On your joy ass day it will be divine

    Weather or not the sun will shine as its divine an allways shines

    We don’t always realise we let small things cloud our minds…

    You an yours will have a wonderfull day when a wee wane comes yer way.

    An may it grow an flourish always cared with love an always cherished.

    An all your life an days to come some will blaze just like the sun an all will be remembered an all will be fun.

    That’s whats kicking right now in your tum.


    Nellie Nell says:

    July 13, 2013 at 8:18

  98. dianetrotter says:

    Guilty seems likely. Intelligent people listening to all of the audio and watching all videos must know that GZ was pursuing Trayvon. This all started with “We don’t need you to do that sir.” There is no way a reasonable jury would come back with NG.

    • rnewton32 says:

      I agree. They cannot ignore the lies and the DNA evidence. The most convincing to me was that there is no blood on that boy’s hands. NOTHING, NADA! No swelling or bruising of the knuckles. No defensive wounds on Fogen. Bernie hit the nail right on the head when he said how can the rain wash away all the evidence that hurts Fogen, but preserve the evidence that helps him. We should have bottled that rain and sold it by now.

  99. jane parsons says:

    Does anyone think there might be a hung jury?

  100. YQ says:

    I wonder if the SPDs call for accpetance of the verdict was directed generally towards AAs. Florida has a long history of riots stemming from not guilty verdicts in situations just like this one. On the other side of the coin, if the verdict was guilty, how much evidence of Ws retribution would be swept under the rug?

    • Unabogie says:

      SPD has no more inkling of how this jury will go than we do.

    • Sleuth says:

      ~YQ, I was wondering the same thing. But then again, I thought about Miami, Trayvon’s hometown. The LEO’s are taking the same precautions. I don’t think, at least in recent history, Sanford has experienced a riot the magnitude of the McDuffie riots.

  101. ay2z says:

    gbrbsb, , a smile for you, hope you can see it. Thought you might enjoy and need a break from the frustrations.

    The guy is a Belgian variety best guess, with personality .

    • DruDo says:

      lol! Thanks for posting this. I have this video saved and love this dog!

    • Judy75201 says:

      Oh hahahahaha. I’m in love with that doggy.

    • gbrbsbblogs says:

      @ay2z Hope this posts as it should, searching for my posts your sweet lovely video came up. Even though I had to search my emailed posts to respond I had to because it was so kind of you to think of me in this sort of purgatory.

      Precious, a really good one… the dog is so purrrfect… the lovable scruffy dog par excellence. Thank you so much, and it certainly did bring a smile my way. Thank you again and really hope I can be back with you all soon! * *

      On 13 July 2013 21:15, Frederick Leatherman Law Blog wrote:

      > ** > ay2z commented: “gbrbsb, , a smile for you, hope you can see it. > Thought you might enjoy and need a break from the frustrations. The guy is > a Belgian variety best guess, with personality . > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGeKSiCQkPw” >

  102. Lynn says:

    Maybe others have noticed and I’m a little late, but just now hearing part of his reenactment…he mentions Goode coming out and he asks for help then he says he doesn’t know what happened to him and then mentions Manalo comes out with the flashlight and again he asks for help. BUT…he says he’s spreading arms of Trayvon out at that time and says my gun is here and asks him for help to which Manalo says I’m calling police. GZ says I already called them they’re on their way and I need help…and that’s when the police come up-he says.

    I thought when Manalo came around shining the flashlight on him and he said he heard him talking on the phone??? His testimony says nothing about him asking for help retraining the guy. That part was over and he has the conversation about you okay I’m calling 911 Is there Blood on my face Blah Blah

    • kittySP says:

      Lynn – because that’s just one more example of GZs lies. He was so convinced the he’d convinced the detectives of his story, that they wouldn’t bother following up on his story. The witness hadn’t given full written statements until few days later. Giving him plenty of time to get Goode, Jenna, and Jeremy time to go along with what he claims.

    • type1juve says:

      Fogen has told so many lies that it’s hard to keep track of them all. Add to that the witnesses that are lying to help him beat a murder charge. We will probably never know what happened, but we do know that the only one that can tell us never will because he appears to be a pathological liar IMO.

  103. Sophia33 says:

    This link has the length of time for deliberation in high profile cases. With the exception of Robert Blake, longer deliberations appear to favor the prosecution. And with the exception of the murderer in Connecticut, whose guilt was cut and dry, shorter deliberations appear to favor the defense.

    So this longer deliberation will hopefully be in our favor.


  104. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Does anyone have a good video of the song “Keep Your Eyes on the Prize”?

  105. My Forehead Tho says:

    According to HLN, these are other high profiled cases’ jury deliberation times and convictions:


    1. Jodi Arias
    15 hours
    Guilty of first-degree murder

    2.Jerry Sandusky
    20 hours

    3.Drew Peterson
    14 hours
    Guilty of murder

    4.Conrad Murray
    9 hours
    Guilty of involuntary manslaughter

    5.Phil Spector
    30 hours
    Guilty of second-degree murder

    6.Scott Peterson
    seven days
    Guilty of first-degree

    Acquitted- Not guilty:

    1.Casey Anthony
    10 hours and 40 minutes
    acquitted of first-degree murder

    2.O.J. Simpson
    4 hours
    acquitted- first-degree murder

    3.Robert Blake
    35 hours
    acquitted of first-degree murder

  106. degraveegmailcom says:

    I think she showed compassion when she asked if he wanted to testify,
    and made the lawyers back off.
    That was more than enough IMO and it should have made Fogen

    • bettykath says:

      I think she deliberately asked twice. The first time was to put him on notice that it was his decision and his alone and to make sure he was ready to make his decision by the time the defense was otherwise ready to rest.

      • degraveegmailcom says:


      • ay2z says:

        I thought the judge was not going to let the lawyers tell him what to say. The first time, he leaned to his lawyer who apparently said something to him before his answer. (same as they did after the big fuss in pretrial hearings, when he gave the same answer ‘after consultation with my lawyers….’)

        The first time, the lawyers fought hard to keep him from saying anything in answer to JN’s questions. This time, maybe they wanted to use it as a flaw in the case, had the defendant got away with relying on lawyer’s to tell him what to say about testifying.

    • aussie says:

      She has to hear it from him personally, by law. Prevents people later appealing and saying their lawyer said without consulting them. But West kept interrupting, probably to make sure he didn’t say yes, he wants to. .

      The same rigmarole went on when she had to ask him if he was dropping an SYG or immunity hearing.

      She did talk to him in a kind and patient tone. And took side smacks at West in between.

      • degraveegmailcom says:

        There where a few priceless moments from her like the
        “don’t no no no me!”
        and “stop jumping up and down”
        another good one that I loved was Moms “Object”
        Judge responded super friendly “OK” smiled and then
        never pausing “overruled” with a where-where-we attitude.

        Overall though more and more I was beginning to feel the way
        Tashatexas was expressing it.

      • rnewton32 says:

        Did the jury witness that? If so, that should have spoke volumes to Fogen’s credibility from his lawyer’s point of view. I know some are against taking the stand. But if your claiming self defense, I think you owe it to the jury to give your testimony.

      • anita says:

        ~aussie thanks for using the term”rigmarole”. My Daddy used it, haven’t heard it since he passed 5 yrs. ago. I never knew how to spell it. Must be an older term, not popular now.

  107. amsterdam1234 says:

    Somebody added a clip from a movie that had the exact lines GZ use. ” do you have a problem” ” now you do”. I forgot who posted the clip, from which movie it came, and on which thread it was posted. Anyone remember?

  108. Dee says:

    Good thing is they don’t know what the manslaughter hold which is up to 30 years with the gun charges included. The judge has been checking Z out and the way he does show any remorse. She is known for watching body language of the accused. She said that about a prior case of that black kid that killed someone and went in front of Judge Nelson, and she denied it. And also said that he had no signs of remorse. So you better believe she has been watching Zimmerman in court. How he smiles when he thinks is funny, and stare as though he has no heart.

    They will find him guilty of manslaughter thinking that they would give him a slap on the wrist. However, the slap will be 25-30 post possible after the strike Florida’s guns laws are added. Which Mr. West wasn’t even aware of, he said no it isn’t 25-30 The Judge corrected him and said yes it is, after the gun sentencing is added. West stood there with his mouth wide open for a while. This is when everything turned for West, I feel he thought immediately he had lost and Z is going to prison for a very long time. If you look at him now he has a more distant feel with Z, like a you don’t know exactly was you are about to face, type look.

    • rnewton32 says:

      I think that will be another form of karma. It was the gun laws that he thought he would find immunity under which extended his prison stay. Absolute karma!

    • rnewton32 says:

      Another form of Karma is the lesser charge giving him a longer prison stay, even though in his mind a lesser charge would mean the crime is not as bad as Murder. You see God’s plan is at work, just like he claimed.

  109. What do you think is going on in deliberations? It’s the past the 9th hour and I’m not liking this.

    • Rachael says:

      I think it is a good thing. It means they are taking their job very seriously and studying all the evidence very carefully. I’m not sure if they understand how far-reaching their verdict will be, but they do seem to understand it is not a decision to make lightly.

      • towerflower says:

        One of the “local experts” yesterday on the news said that a quick verdict would have favored the defense and a longer verdict normally favors the prosecution……don’t know how true that is.

    • boar_d_laze says:

      There’s no way to know what it means. None of the stuff people are talking really helps with predictions.

      This is a big case, and every big case is one of a kind.

      The only good way to know what the jury is thinking to wait for their verdict.


    • rnewton32 says:

      I know its hard but have patience. Use the wise tweets from Sybrina to guide you and keep your faith in God. I feel the jury already has their minds made up. They just have to decide if its Murder 2 or Manslaughter. If they felt he was innocent, I think they would have returned a verdict by now. I think they will use this weekend and deliver a verdict on Monday.

        • Dee says:

          Besides that, they know it is a big nationwide case they want to make sure when they start to get asked about this case, and they can say, they took their time and made their decision. These people don’t want to be on the opposite side of history, just because they may have some biases, on just race alone. They know they will have to live the rest of their lives. If they just let this man walk free without any punishment, because 1 he shouldn’t have gotten out of his car to begin with. If he let the police do their job nothing else after that point, wouldn’t have happened period. This is why we have to do something about this law that says it okay to follow someone. That is totally ridicules, and this has to be changed.

          This means we will never really know how and why someone is following us. What are we supposed to do. Just let someone follow us until they kill us. I really wished that Trayvon had a gun that night. However, he was following the law that he knew and that was it’s against to have a gun, not registered. However, if he had he may have been still alive today. These laws got to change. We might as well still be allowing them to hang us from a tree again, with these kinds of laws on the books.

          The KKK are not dead they have only changed their sheets to suits. Now they are secretly in our juridical system, prisons, hospitals as well as those who are making these laws, such as SYG, and you can follow who you want to in the dark and in the rain, without any repercussion for doing so. Making laws and that says you can follow someone provoke them by showing them your gun then shooting them. Then just use few simply words ” I was in fear of my life.” Which I couldn’t understand when they taught us this in class. When I was getting my conceal weapon license to carry. It was like they were saying don’t worry about it kill them and just remember to say I was in fear of my life. Why would I want to shoot someone who was not doing me anything.

          That’s when I realize who this law was really for the black not
          the white to stand behind for their hate crimes against other they
          may not like I thought, but they were making it sound like go have fun now shooting who you want, just make sure you use those words and nothing else. So I know that Zim was aware of what he was going that rainy dark afternoon. Now he has to pay through the same laws that he learned to take Trayvon life away from him. He will live by the laws of the accused soon.

  110. My Forehead Tho says:

    From Sabrina Fulton this morning:

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Beautiful message from Sybrina with her putting Trayvon in the Lord’s hands by symbolically letting both ends of the word TRUST hug the skittles-full “U” representing Trayvon and that night.

      Absolutely amazing! So deeply moving! *trusting tears*

    • breelee says:

      Omg, I didn’t even notice the skittles. That woman amazes me to the depth of my core, with her strength and grace. If my child was murdered, and then half the country was trashing him, I’d be a loose cannon out of control. I’d be locked up or put away, and here she and Tracy handle this better than Mother Teresa could have, imo. Women of the jury, please don’t let them down..

      • elle says:

        They would have had to eject me from the courtroom every time one of the defense lawyers spoke. My hysterical meltdowns would have been remarkable and hilarious to everyone who was not me. Sybrina has the strength of a mountain range, a determined unmovable force of love, I could not admire her more.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Sybrina and Tracy:

      Tears in your heart
      Weeping for your child

      Deep soul ache

      Moving forward in the name of your child
      Using the ache in the name of your child
      Steadily stepping toward the light of justice

      Lifting up all children
      Seeking a safe world for them
      Saying NEVER AGAIN

      A journey overseen by Trayvon with the Lord
      A cause built of tears
      A clear voice that will be heard

      Tho’ the walk be rough,
      The din will be silenced
      By the goodness.

      Yours is a steady light,
      Dispersing the darkness.

      You WILL be lifted up.
      You WILL sail to the worthy heights.
      Your wings are supported by us.

    • HotFlash says:

      TrayvonRoland U SabrinaTracey

    • elle says:

      I have been trying to articulate how much I admire Tracey and Sybrina. It is incredible that everything they have done has been about their son. They never make it about themselves. They discuss their pain when asked. This has always been about how much they love their son and what they feel they owe him. This is about justice for Trayvon, not themselves.

      I am a total drama queen, who always makes everything about myself without even realizing I am doing it. They are amazing, amazing people. My deepest respect to them.

    • Beautiful!

      Is there a way to notify Twitter of abuse & a false account? I stumbled upon one for Sybrina, and it was horrible.

  111. towerflower says:

    Things are not going well over at the Outhouse. SD is losing it, attacking MOM and others within his own site.

    They are also getting nervous about the length of time, most thought it would be a slam dunk with a verdict returned by now.

    Sounds like the tree is starting to become unstable (as if they weren’t already).

    • Rachael says:

      LOL – That is the best news I’ve heard in a LONG time. There is only one thing I’d like to hear more. And y’all know what that is!!!

    • MedicineBear says:

      Watch out if they start SWAYING!

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Loving it. People over at TalkLeft – some of the same people who post at the Treestump – were also amazed that the jury didn’t issue a not guilty verdict within the first hour. The evidence entirely absolves Fogen, don’tcha know?

    • Woow! says:

      Those people feel if CAC is found guilty, white people can’t protect their families anymore.

  112. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    I did it. Thank you Sleuth and Deborah. I pray that everyone is blessed by this song. There is healing in it.

    • Sleuth says:

      ~ Yay! You did it!

      Is this from the soundtrack of one of Tyler Perry’s movies? I love this song.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        Yes, I started to post one on YouTube that a church had a play and in the play a child is shot, but you cannot hear it that good, At least I couldn’t hear it, but I am hearing impaired,

  113. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:


      Thanks for posting this,Granny.

    • breelee says:

      Go Granny Go, you did it! Thanks for sharing, loved it.

    • texad says:

      IMO, this is the best 4 minutes of that movie. It’s like the end of a Shakespearean play. Forgiveness, recovery, agape love, faith of victim to move onward, a child’s faith, community encougagement, hope for the new day. It’s all there. But of course, that’s what gospel music is about anyway. LOL.

      Thanks Granny. You did good.

  114. breelee says:

    I’m so stressed on missing the verdict, and cant stand having those jerks on my tv. I have a pay-as-you-go phone, can it do that tweeting thing you guys were talking about for the verdict? I have it for breakdowns only since I live in the middle of nowhere, have probably used it 10 times or less. Can anyone talk..real…slow and tell me how to do it? : ) Its a LG if it matters. Thank you. Oh, or can I get it on my home phone? That’d be even better.

    • bettykath says:

      lol. You need to find a tween or a teen to help you. Go to your nearest middle school or high school if you don’t have one handy. I have a couple of nephews that I call on when I need tech help.

      There was a warning of some sort for droid phones. I passed it on but included a question for my nephews, “do I have a droid?” they responded with “lol, no you don’t.”

    • Breelee, go to http://www.twitter.com and make you a twitter account. You do not have to use your phone. You can have an account that shows tweets on a page just like this one. When you have your account just type in search for whomever you want to follow to get the tweet when a verdict is in.

      • breelee says:

        Hinkster, but how will it alert me? I hate to show how out of touch I am, but are you saying it’ll email me or call me? I was hoping not to have to have my laptop on at all times, so hope its not by email.

        Betty, lol wish I had one here. My grands are 9 and 14, but live over 50 miles away.

        And a big thanks to you both. : )

  115. Sleuth says:

    I just loved, loved, loved the heck out the twist BDLR put on one of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.’s most famous quotes when trying to get the jurors to better understand Miss Rachel Jeantel’s testimony.

    BDLR said, “She should be judged not by the color of her personality but by the content of her testimony”. So powerful.

  116. colin black says:

    What you talin about Willis?

  117. breelee says:

    1st I want to repost one I saw on the last thread, afraid others didn’t see it:

    “HeresLookingatYou says:

    July 13, 2013 at 7:52 am

    I would imagine these woman want to get back home soon.
    I hope they realize that’s all Trayvon was wanting too.”

    I’m hoping so also HL@Y. Well, my guess for a verdict was for 3:00pm today, doesn’t look like I’m going to get it right. I don’t care when it comes in, as long as he’s convicted. We’ve waited this long, we can wait as long as it takes.

    Not only will we be devastated if he’s freed, but having to see him and his family and friends celebrate will be the death of me. I can still clearly see that biotch jumping up and down after CA was set free. The old coot flippin the bird didn’t bother me half as much as she did. Who can be happy when a child has been murdered? I expect we’ll all need to be put on calming meds if fogen gets off.

    Professor, I must have seen it different than you and others. When Sybrina walked out, I thought MOM was showing a picture he assumed was “thug-like” of Trayvon. It looked like the bird photo, without the bird. Did everyone else see a death photo? Either way, he bites a big one. Imo, even if you’re trying to get a killer off, you should ALWAYS show respect for the victims loved ones.

    Thanks everyone for all the insightful and heartfelt posts. I read them all and shed tears for all the pain you’ve been through. I see the kids of today, being way more compassionate than when I was raised. I don’t think most see color, I know my boys sure didn’t. They always got so angry that a dog we had would have a fit when their black friends would come to the house. That dog got scolded a lot! lol Hoodies Up and prayers for Trayvon’s loved ones.

    • anita says:

      I saw the thug-like photo,but there were 2 photos. Either way, I’m proud of Sybrina for walking out. Hoodies Up!!

    • Imo, even if you’re trying to get a killer off, you should ALWAYS show respect for the victims loved ones.

      Mark O’Mara doesn’t give one iota about the victim or his loved ones. Why? They’re black and undeserving of sympathy. When he said he was sorry to Sybrina about Trayvon. That was for the cameras. He didn’t mean any of it. He showed it by cross examining the victim’s mother.

      • aussie says:

        He didn’t say sorry. He said “I apologise……” Apologise? for someone’s murder? like apologise for being late to a meeting? wtf???

  118. fauxmccoy says:


  119. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Remember when gz was talking about smothering and he slipped and said, “I had one hand….” and then he corrected and said, “He had one hand…..”?

    • FactsFirst says:

      I sure do… and “he started screaming, uh I started screaming help! Help!”

      • Rachael says:

        There was another one in the walk-through. Can’t remember what it is now, but he did that. He said, and he said and Serino (I think it was) said who said that, and GZ said “I said that.” I’ll go back and look, but he did that several times and correcting himself.

        • towerflower says:

          In one of the audio interviews, Z slips and says he was screaming and Serino stops him and asks who was screaming? and he corrected himself to say it was he who was screaming. One of many Freudian slips.

          • towerflower says:

            Should be more specific, in the interview fogen first said that he– TM was screaming which caused Serino to stop and ask “who was screaming?” and Fogen said he (forgen) was.

        • Rachael says:

          I mean that is how he knew how to say he was the victim, because he knew what he was doing to Trayvon and what Trayvon said so he changed places. That is why that thing at the end Mr. Guy did was so powerful. He was showing how GZ traded places with Trayvon in his lies.

  120. Just saw a video report on USA Today of a few people hanging out with signs in Sanford.

    A white dude held up a sign that said “Creepy Ass Cracker is Racist.” He was arguing with TM supporters.

    Imo, he’s up to no good. He’s looking for trouble. But, hey, whites are allowed to be jerks.

  121. degraveegmailcom says:

    Stole this pic from the Field Negro blog

  122. My Forehead Tho says:

    Karma, has anybody noticed it?

    1. Fogen had Trayvon scared of being murder, now he’s afraid of being murder. So much so, that he has hired 24 hour body guards and wears a bulletproof vest everywhere he goes.

    2. He profited off the misfortune of his victim, now his friends (Osterman) and family (Papa Z) have profited off of his.

    3. He ended a life, now the life as he knew it has ended.

    4. etc.

  123. KateW says:

    Kruidbos needed to be fired! If you have a grievance with your employer you go through the proper channels and follow protocol. You keep documents of how you followed protocol and procedure with your grievance. You don’t inject yourself into a case because you don’t know when or how that information will be given or why. He is not an attorney, he is an IT employee who decided to divulge information based on his feelings for the defendant in the case or whatever bias he has.

    Any Human Resources personnel will tell you that his is not some insignificant thing. Going to others to solve grievances with your employer is a NO NO. All companies frown upon this behavior, not just the government. Go to any interview and tell the HR person you had a falling out with your company because you took matters into your own hands outside the companies protocol and procedures and guaranteed they will not hire you. Bad mouthing a former company, boss or the way the company handled business will not get you hired anywhere unless your family owns the business.

    • Tzar says:

      hell he could have gone to the judge in the case
      he could have gone to the FBI and that would have been bad enough, but the defense by proxy of his lawyer? nope that is highly improper

    • Two sides to a story says:

      He thought he was a big whistleblower hero.

  124. riisey007 says:


    Geraldo Rivera is a piece of crap, he was the host of a sleezy talk show and now he is on Fox news running his evidently ignorant and very uninformed mouth. This is the reason why people are not able to see Martin as a regular teen who was doing nothing wrong. He really makes me sick, he has no class and he just does this so he can keep his place on Fox news because he is not the race they care for.

    • My Forehead Tho says:

      He is truly disgusting and despicable.

    • Rachael says:

      What a fucking asshole. And as far as how those ladies would have felt, they probably wouldn’t have been so stupid as to get out of their car if they felt that way. Common sense. You see someone you are scared of (regardless of why) you call the police and get out of there. You don’t get out of your car – so obviously GZ was NOT afraid of him and went looking for him. You can’t hunt people Geraldo!!!

      • riisey007 says:

        That is what a lot of the commenters were saying. No one willfully unless they are up to something or trying to save a child,etc would put themselves in harms way to catch someone who by their own admission was doing nothing but looking weird. I know I wouldn’t. I have seen a lot of strange things and the stranger it looks the more distance I give it. Geraldo is a piece of crap who when his show died out and he was trying to make it he was able to slither to Fox news. People like Geraldo who knows that Fox is racist seem to think he is in with them since he is shuck and jiving but in reality they probably talk about him and call him a big nose wet back.

        • anita says:

          Yesterday I called Geraldo a moron. Today I’m with Rachael, he’s a fucking asshole. I was trying not to cuss, so much for that.

    • MedicineBear says:

      If I weren’t such an evolved human bean, I’d be hoping for el Gerald-o to cross the path of an armed CAC wanting to bag one of them effing “illegal alien” Mexican porn-star-looking punks.

      oops . . . turns out I’m not that evolved.

    • Tzar says:

      make them pay and they will stop
      either boycott or reduce their ratings

  125. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    What plays over and over in my mind is Surdyka’s testimony. That woman was visually upset and she was in my opinion an eye witness to what happened. She said, “I’ve never seen anyone killed.”

    • HeresLookingatYou says:

      Whenever I’ve seen something going on I call 911 if necessary but I’ve always kept watching…

    • chi1224 says:

      And she called Trayvon a “boy” too. That call always sticks in my mind too. She was so upset, and so sorry she couldn’t do something to help. I also think she had one of the most compassionate 911 operators I’ve ever heard.

      • HeresLookingatYou says:

        I wanted to reach out and comfort that women she was so alone and so distraught…I felt so much compassion for what she had been witness to

    • riisey007 says:

      Amazingly her testimony was just swept under the rug, it just seemed so strange to me. She worked with teens as a teacher and she also worked with youth in another profession. She seemed more of a plausible witness to identify the screams at the very least. I am very confused by how little they valued her testimony.

    • Jasmine says:

      Her call really got to me too. I am sure that she felt so alone on that witness stand. It was hard to watch her. And she was wondering why Fogen shot him. She obviously did not see a fight so I am sure that she could not reason shooting anyone. If she had seen some kind of altercation she would have said. She saw nothing of the sort. I feel so bad for her, she has to live with that for the rest of her life. Witnessing a rape was a hard thing for me to deal with so Jane witnessing a murder must be an unbearable burden.

    • aussie says:

      And the other side dismissed her, from the start, as a hysterical crybaby whose word is worthless.

      What got me on first hearing was her saying “I don’t want to be a witness”…….. which nobody says unless they SAW.

      I missed her this time, does she still live there? I guess not, all of them seem to have moved away from the evil memory.

    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      Which house did she live in?

  126. Carmen says:

    I hope all of the Sean Hannity’s and Fox News cabal, start a defense fund for all of poor people of any race who were, in fact, overcharged and are wasting away in prisons throughout the country. Just ask the kid who did 15 years for possession.

  127. chi1224 says:

    Hello everyone! I have been very busy today and not had a chance to watch the news or go online, but a friend of mine just told me the jury opted to keep going through lunch! This could mean they are very close! Has anyone else heard that or any other new?
    Hoodies Up!

  128. HeresLookingatYou says:

    I hope the jury has already decided he is guilty and they deciding between . Murder and Manslaughter I will take so do either..
    Just no free walk

    • HeresLookingatYou says:

      I will take either .. sorry dang kindle wants to write for me

    • diary73 says:

      I hope for a verdict of nothing but Murder 2. A verdict of manslaughter will forever make this killer a martyr.

      • diary73 says:

        …among his followers.

      • HeresLookingatYou says:

        His followers mean nothing he is already their hero…
        I want other depraved people like the killer to know .
        It’s not hunting season on our children ..
        You will be held accountable and go to prison…
        But make no mistake I have lived and breathed this trial…
        Murder2 is the right decision…a Guilty is mandatory.

        • mrsdoubtfire says:

          Jurors compromise….always have. I’d rather see him guilty of manslaughter than walk. Acquittal means he has been rubberstamped as doing no wrong. He then can freely profit from his noteriety and knowing Z’s love for money he would milk it for all its worth. Hannity and Fox would give him and his family a platform to spew how badly they were treated by the establishment. But worse Trayvon will be deemed a thug who was responsible for his own death. The media will delve into those text messages and pictures on his phone which as far as I know have not been sealed and therefore can be freely accessed via Florida’s liberal public record law. Hell No The State’s case was not brilliantly presented. John Guy hopefully turned it around yesterday. I was relieved JN allowed the jurors the choice. West was totally opposed. He wanted these women only to have an all or nothing choice.

      • Deborah Moore says:

        I disagree.
        A verdict of manslaughter means he Killed some one.
        It also means prison time. Lots of it.
        Those who want to see him as a martyr will think that anyway it goes.

        • Rachael says:

          One of the reasons that the defense didn’t want aggravated assault was – at least this is what I heard on TV – is that he could have ended up with more time than the Murder 2 (or maybe it was the manslaughter) so even though it was a “lesser charge,” it had greater time – or something like that. Not that it makes any sense, but that is what they said.

      • MedicineBear says:

        I absolutely agree, diary!

    • Tzar says:

      I hope they are deciding what color hoodie they should each wear in order to deliver their verdict

    • chi1224 says:

      I would take manslaughter over NG for sure, but I honestly hope for murder 2. I think Fogen is VERY depraved. He shot a kid screaming for help, and then went on national TV with “no regrets” saying it was “God’s plan”… if that isn’t depraved then I don’t know what is?? And the jury should know both of those facts.
      But you never know with juries… if God forbid we have a hold out maybe manslaughter could be the compromise.

    • aussie says:

      Defence wanted manslaughter off the table to force an all or nothing decision.

      IF they bring in manslaughter a lot of people will say he wasn’t really all that guilty, it was just a sympathy for the dead kid thing.

      If they bring Murder 2 even though there was a lesser choice, that sends a strong message – DO NO GO ABOUT MURDERING KIDS.

      No way it’s involuntary manslaughter. Nothing involuntary about carefully aiming around to not hit the hand you’re holding the victim with.

      Plenty of ill-will in profiling an “effing punk azzhole” . Plenty of depraved mind shooting to eliminate a witness.

  129. riisey007 says:



    I was just sitting here and reading comments over this case, this SYG that occured after Martin was killed, this 17 year old was gun down over his music. i scrolled down on a site and seen the exact same types of comments in this case as in Zimmerman, people claimed they were upset over the national attention martin got but this case did not get nearly that kind of attention and people are still mocking the dead child, talking about his parents, accusing his friends. This is just rediculous. my son is suppose to go to Orlando on vacation with my family this month. I may have to cancel that. This is just rediculous, it is open season on teen AA boys in Florida. I just don’t get it.

    • RBLKMSCORPIO says:

      In the Jordan Davis case the shooter was arrested the next day and is being held without bail. But he still tried to sell the “fear the black thug/gangster” stereotype to mainstream society.

    • elle says:

      Riisey, my daughter (a tiny white female) is going to Florida this month also. I really do not want her to go. She looks about 15, she is less than 5′ tall. I cannot imagine how scary it must be for you, when I am scared and we are white. This is really hard. I pray both our babies are safe.

  130. Sleuth says:

    I think it was a brilliant move on the part of Mr. Guy when he transformed into what a call his “Matthew McConaughey” mode. He slowed down the pace, and told the jurors a story about this kid, walking home from the store early one night, while being followed by a stranger in a car. It was like a scene right of the movie, “A Time To Kill”.

    I believe his storytelling was very effective, especially when you consider the fact that five of these jurors have children.

    Hoodies Up!

  131. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Good morning everyone. Would someone post a YouTube of that song, “If I Had A Hammer” by Peter, Paul & Mary for me, please? I woke up this morning hearing that song in my spirit. And I am hearing it even now as I write my request.

  132. colin black says:

    Manue says:

    July 13, 2013 at 9:22 am

    Colin, I only know Argeles from crossing thru during a trip but the area is beautifull; I live on the west coast at the border of Spain, in the Basque Country (Euskadi in Basque language).


    Manue three or 4ntries Ive made my home an felt at Home UK ENGLAND SCOTLANDLD IRELAND WALES …India ….France.

    Argeliess was so good for me met one of the most Beutifell Women on the planet inside an out.

    A great Freaind off mine Richard A Canadian Bear of a Man an an his French wife rope me an aother Scots friend to help him turn 6 acres of vine yards into Camp round.

    Very basic shipped some old portable shower units from canads /porta cabins

    Turned one into a Burger chips cccrepe wine te ice cream /restraint.

    An had about 500 again ex military thistime ex britich army tents.

    Opened 1981.

    Today thres swimming pulls crazy golf three majors supermarket franchised an covers a sprall of

    Shit google earth its like a small city bot just Richards Campsite but hundreds if not thousands >>

    Butours was about the 4 th to open.

    Ah those were the dayzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    The Pyraneese in the back drop provided conditions so that lieing on the

    Beach or anywere thre was always not a gentle cool breeze but a substancial cool breeze

    Like lieing in front of a fan.

    So boy people couls burn most severe cases of sunburn ever seen in my life as the Brits Germans Northen Europeans just couldn’t take it out or figure out why thet didn’t fell them selfs cookin.

    After fifemonts out there I d come back to the Uk almost as Bronzed an dark as Trayvon

    Though never as handsome.

    treyjusticeisnearyounolongerknowofffear r I p.

  133. Sophia33 says:

    The longer the deliberate, the more likely I fee he is going to jail.

  134. acemayo says:

    All Blacks are evil
    If they can’t prove what they did is good
    Then all blacks are evil
    TM is dead he cannot tell what happen
    So we assume he was up to no good

    Remember the old saying
    Thee Only good Indian
    Is a dead Indian

    I can understand those believe
    GZ was just defending himself
    But many people just
    Wrote about their hates for blacks

    Isn’t all blacks alike
    We’re all gonna riot

    Why is so hard to
    Believe blacks are
    Not evil

    Tells Us
    What we do

    What they did to
    the Indians of this land
    When they made
    them evil

  135. Sleuth says:

    I apologize if this has been posted earlier, here’s a brief narrative on each of the jurors. If you find any discrepancies, please charge it to my head and not my heart.

    Most of the jurors told the courts they have either owned a gun or knows someone, such as a family member or friend who owns one.


    B-29 is a woman, whose ethnicity is unclear. She is the only woman of color in the jury. She moved from Chicago four months ago. She is a mother of eight kids and has been married for about a decade. She works as the nurse of an Alzheimer’s ward and when she is not watching reality T.V., she is checking her Facebook. She informed the courts that she was arrested once.

    B-76 is a white woman who is a longtime Sanford resident. She relies on an over-the-air antenna for T.V. news. Her son is an attorney who deals with foreclosures and bankruptcies.

    NOTE: The State wanted to get rid of B-76 because of a comment she made during her interview. Her daughter, she said, did not think it was acceptable for 17-year-old Trayvon Martin to be out late at night. He was killed about 7 p.m. She said the only reason why she refers to the Orlando Sentinel is to get the coupons.

    NOTE: Hopefully after going over the evidence she discovers the truth about the time Trayvon was actually out.

    B-37 is a white woman in her 40’s. She is an animal lover. She is married to an attorney who deals with space law. She works for a Chiropractor, and said that newspapers were for her parrot cage. “It’s a lot better use,” she said. “I just don’t think they’re (media) truthful.” The mother of two adult daughters also said she took care of three dogs, four cats and had recently rescued a lizard. She described protests in Sanford as “rioting” and Trayvon as “a boy of color.”

    NOTE: She is a former gun owner, and chose not to renew her CCW. Believes getting a CCW too easy too obtain, and believes it should be harder.

    B-51 is a white woman in her 60’s. Moved from Atlanta and has lived in Central Florida since the 1980’s. She now lives in the City of Oviedo. She is a single retiree who doesn’t have children. She has a dog and a cat. Her parents live in Jacksonville. She has experience in real estate. And as the director of a call center in Brevard County, she supervised 1,200 employees.

    NOTE: Experts believe she will be named the Jury Foreperson.

    E-6 is a white woman in her 30’s. She is a stay-at-home mother of two teenagers ages 11 and 13. She said she used to work in financial services, but hasn’t been working since September. During the interview, she also revealed she had been the victim of domestic violence and was arrested once.

    NOTE: The State was concerned that she may know some of the witnesses.

    NOTE: Various analysts have observed her taking lots of notes. She is the juror who repeatedly requested the word “cracker” be repeated. Said her kids said the death of Trayvon is a very unfortunate incident. Said she worries about innocent people going to prison.

    E-40 is a woman who has lived in Seminole County for seven months and has also lived in California and Iowa. She is married to a chemical engineer and has a 28-year-old son who works in the fast food industry. She has worked as a safety officer for nearly two decades and enjoys traveling, reading and sports.

    Observations from legal analyst, Sunni Hostin: She stated the jurors were respectful of both the Defense and the State, and further stated the jurors did not take their eyes off Mr. John Guy as he gave his closing. Said the jurors were more attentive during the State’s closing than that of the Defense.

    She also stated juror E-6 was very attentive throughout the trial, and took tons of notes.

    Hoodies Up!

    • I recall West’s interminable rambling opening statement in which he told the jurors that the defendant purchased the gun to protect Shellie from an aggressive dog in the neighborhood. That should sit well with B-37.

      • degraveegmailcom says:

        She was afraid of a dog?This pair is not the animal nor children
        loving kind.
        He called the cops on little kids playing on the road for chrissake!
        A serious NW would set about trying to slow down traffic on his street through city council or even just hang around keep the kids of the road.

        • Deborah Moore says:

          I agree, but don’t you think it’s a good thing that they didn’t make any babies?

        • texad says:

          I live in a community that used to have a pretty active NW program. We had block captains who got others on their street to be the eyes and ears on the street. My next door neighbor was a young guy who had no kids but took a very pro-active stance on how he wanted our community to look. When kids were playing basketball in the street (a no-no) and running in resident’s back yards (another obvious no-no) he came up with a couple of simple but unique ideas: He bought a couple of used lawn mowers and would lend them out to the kids to cut yards to earn a little money. And he and the kids would often congregate on his back porch and just talk. I asked him why he took such an interest in the kids and he said because somebody in the neighborhood had to and all they needed was a little postive male feedback. GZ was obviously interested in NW for all the wrong reasons.

      • SearchingMind says:

        When it comes to justice, I trust women more than men. And Di-mayo (defense’s expert witness) described how they shoot and kill innocent animals for the sole purpose of experiment, i.e. see how long they lived/remained conscious after being shot in heart.

      • Sleuth says:

        ~ Professor, I know, and was actually surprised that he brought that up. Must have been a result of him drinking all that water ;-)

        I sure hope B-37 took notice.

      • kllypyn says:

        Yeah for a dog. And since when do you need hollow point bullets for a dog. When you buy hollow point bullets you want to make sure you really hurt somebody and i’m not tslk about a dog. He knew he had hollow points and he knew trayvon was under age and he knew aiming at his chest would guarantee his death. That alone proves murder 2.

    • SearchingMind says:

      Thanks Sleuth for the excellent refreshing summary.

      • Sleuth says:

        ~ SearchingMind, you’re welcome. But I can’t take full credit, it’s a combination of my own personal notes and ABC’s website.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Can anybody guess who the foreman is? According to some news reports, the defense was not happy about who it is. E6?

    • MedicineBear says:

      TY for posting this! Which one is the foreperson?

  136. sadlyyes says:

    i forgot the worst part of foagy
    HE BLAMED G-D for the murder
    it was g-ds will he said

  137. KateW says:

    Why do people keep saying he got a jury of his peers?? Jury of your peers does not indicate all of one race. His peers consist of the people, of legal age, that are part of this society. That includes Blacks, Caucasians, Hispanics, Asians, Native Indians, Middle Easterners, Men, Women, etc. He does not live in a vacuum, surrounded by white women. This was not a jury of his peers. This is what was selected for this trial but by no means a diverse and inclusive bunch. I am not saying that these women, whatever their verdict, will not make a conscious and just decision. I feel the defense and State made a conscious effort to exclude any African Americans on the panel, the alternates did not include any African Americans either, and I feel there were a few qualified African Americans during jury selection.

    • aussie says:

      In the right sidebar, click on Archives for July and then open up the Jury Selection threads. It is all explained there by the Professor, how juries are selected.

      Basically, the notices are sent out to eligible people, who are all those things you listed. Then they’re lined up by lottery and questioned in that order; as soon as they have enough acceptable ones they stop. By luck of the draw the men and AA people were further down the list, so never got in.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Some part of karmic retribution that we don’t quite understand yet. Perhaps we will after the verdict.

    • A jury of one’s peers means a jury composed of fellow citizens.

    • cielo62 says:

      Kate- the Constitution right for a jury of one’s peers applies to the DEFENDANT and not to the victim. GZ got a jury of his peers; middle class people from his county. That’s all that’s required.


  138. degraveegmailcom says:

    Woops, defense instead of defence of course

    • aussie says:

      LOL you’re catching the British spelling.

      • degraveegmailcom says:

        Is it? Thanks,for teaching me.

      • ay2z says:

        defense defence

        Aussie, you spell it the second way, down under? We don’t spell it with a ‘c’ in Canada, using Brit spelling. And just checked with my comptuer’s language flag, it always resets itself to US English, and after changing my choice (AGAIN grrr), the two words I first typed, as the ‘c’ version underlined.

        However, using the ‘c’ version, is useful when you say someone is sitting on de fence. ;)

      • ay2z says:

        Aussie, interesting, I have just checked my book copy of the 9th Ed. M-W Collegiate Dictionary, (printed in USA but sold in Canadian U. bookstores for recommended student use),and there is no listing for ‘defence’ but under ‘defense’, the spelling defence is given a an alternate.

        We are so much more influenced by the US media from regular cable, even non-cable, TV stations (long pre-internet media viewing was common), that we may have slipped into the ‘s’ spelling, just as we are slipping in common use, with ‘color’. (each and every time I spell ‘color’ or other similar words, like in this case, neighborhood’, I am aware of which I am using for this primarilly US audience.

        Wonder if providing Canadian university students with a required choice dictionary of M-W, instead of OED, that we are slipping even further away from ‘our’ own written language, and accepting that of the bigger media influence from the US. We do have protections in place, but we are out numbered and out-weighed,.

        Colour, neighbourhood, defence, (will use it now) thanks!

        Now to find my Webster’s Canadian dictionary from early school years.

        • ay2z says:

          Correction, it’s ‘Winston canadian Dictionary for Schools.

          Where M-W had ‘defense listed with alternate Defence’, The earlier Canadian schools dictionary, lists ‘Defence with alternate defense’.

          Both correct in Canada for some time now, but why was this spelling changed where other words stuck with the ‘ou’ spelling and are still prominent today. Maybe there was a choice in the OED as well, simply two correct spellings.

          Could this have anything to do with ‘defence’ being a federal gov’t ministry and adopting a more common international spelling? Or is it simply a choice and always has been.

          (don’t have an OED available in print version)

        • aussie says:

          We get a lot of American TV here, so that lets the latest slang spread very quickly. But there’s not a lot of writing on TV. News stories printed in papers, sourced from the US, get changed to our local spelling. Very easy to do, now it’s all computerised (<<<note the s).

          But I agree with Puck, changing the spelling on LITERATURE from another country is very weird. It seems everything has to be cleaned up and modernised, even if it means rewriting history. I've heard serious talk that old films should be edited to remove the cigarettes from actors' hands.

          We also get a fair bit of British TV and some Canadian, so our ears get their exercise. Some from BBC Scotland, too, and some of those accents take some learning to understand. American pronounciation won't spread here though, as people spend a lot more time with each other than watching the "box".

  139. Elizabeth says:

    Good job on the Kruidbos firing, right?What a seriously sneaky
    sleazebag and defence did have that information anyway so talk about backfiring on himself.
    I have to laugh because of his dutch last name which means as much as Kruid=gunpowder and bos=a bunch.LOL

  140. Two sides to a story says:

    Sorry if this is already posted upthread.

    Black intern on Fogen defense team speaks out

    • Woow! says:

      I can’t deal with people like her. I disagree that CAC is not a racist and that the case is not about race. MOM made this case racail. GTFOH

      If all of these people volunteered what did MOM need the hundred’s of thousands of dollars for?

      • aussie says:

        It truly was a once in a lifetime opportunity for her. What’s she going to say? And we know what a charmer a practised psychopath can be.

      • dianetrotter says:

        I think this was a strategic move for her. I noticed that she is 34 – a little old compared young attorneys starting out. She doesn’t look 34. Many people would pay to get this experience/publicity. It looks good on the resume regardless of the side you are on.

      • smokeegyrl says:

        I believe she took this as a volunteerism because it is a high profile case and it will boost her grades up but the down fall is that people will look at her differently if this man walks it will shut her career down as a lawyer. Since the governmental labels have forced race down our throats with this Census crap and circled us into groups… she will not be accepted into certain groups of people.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          I doubt it will shut her career down if Fogen is convicted. Defense attorneys just keep practicing regardless. They win some, they lose some. O’Mara and West probably win enough to keep their careers going.

        • elle says:

          Omg SmokeeGyrl, my family keeps getting picked for “the extra census”, and I get so angry because you are forced to put your race over and over and over. My children and I always refuse to check a race box. The children will be naughty and write in things like human being and none of your business, which I tell them not to do. But they think it is funny. I have been really appalled every time I am forced to fill out one of those freaking forms.

      • Sophia33 says:

        The sistah is trying to advance her career. It’s a once in a lifetime opportunity for a law student. I don’t fault her for that.

        Hopefully, she uses this insight to help people in the black community and not hurt them.

        This interview was orchestrated by the defense. I’ve been in situations like this. It’s tough.

        • smokeegyrl says:

          No, I don’t fault her for that either… I just wished she would of weighed the outcome before she made her decision to do this first. I honestly feel bad for her. I would’ve refused any type of interviews…

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I think it’s a plum opportunity for a law student who wants to be a defense attorny to work on Fogen’s high profile case. I can’t fault her for that and more power to her.

        But I think she’s quite mistaken about Fogen. I suspect she hasn’t had much contact with narcissists or sociopaths.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        It takes more than two people on a big case like this. Not to mention that OM spent so much time on PR.

      • Sorry, folks, but imo she lacks integrity.

        She is indeed on the wrong side of history.

        She’s just another sell out. They used her and she let them.

        She assisted the guys who humiliated Rachel because Rachel did not look or act like a Disney princess.

        She assisted the guys who went out of their ways to increase the suffering of Trayvon Benjamin Martin’s parents.

        She is helping the man who murdered Trayvon Benjamin Martin avoid any punishment for his crime.

        She is supporting PapaZ and his racist manifesto.

        She is condoning the Trayvon Martin shooting targets.

        • Malisha says:

          Anybody who opens his or her mouth to say Fogen is not a racist has to be terribly stupid, a liar, or both.

    • Sleuth says:

      ~ YAHTC, I saw her interview last night on 20/20. Channa is a very beautiful young lady, she is one of the 3, sometimes 4 people that I nicknamed, “The Robert Palmer Girls/Guy”. Remember the song, “Addicted To Lies….Oooops, meant say, “Love”? :-)

      I believe she and the others were harvesting information from the pj’s and witnesses social media accounts, FB and Twitter for the duh-fense.

    • My Forehead Tho says:

      Good for her. Idk how she, after reviewing all the evidence, can say with a straight face that this case isn’t about race, when it clearly is. Fogen racially profiled Trayvon. For the last two years he only called the police for the suspected “suspicious activities” of black males. This is what he called the police on Trayvon for. If thats anything to go, it’s safe to conclude that Trayvon would still be alive if he wasn’t black because Fogen would have never gotten suspicious of him.

      • Malisha says:

        If he HAD gotten suspicious of him and gone after him and killed him, he sure as Hell would have been arrested for murder that first damn night! Just how stupid do they want us to pretend to be?

    • KateW says:

      It is what it is. They didn’t do a very good job helping the defense anyway. With the hoard of interns behind them they should have been more prepared. As the professor said of OMara, “due diligence” was lacking in their case given the hap-hazard, sloppy, scrambled closing he gave yesterday. I had stated the night before, prior to the defense close, he would get no sleep. Why? Because of the interview he did Wednesday night where he assumed what kind of evidence the State would put on and he basically brushed them off. Perhaps it is because of the “weak” showing during the trial.
      The defense was wrong! They had no time to rebut the evidence because they concluded the State had no evidence, therefore, they probably didn’t prepare much until after Bernie’s close. That is why OMara seemed so out of it. Swaying at times, slurred speech, mumbling, drinking lots of water, incoherent, at times he seemed agitated, angry and most importantly he was condescending to the jury.

      • Unabogie says:

        It’s amazing how confirmation bias works. I’m watching John Guy’s closing, and to me it was pitch perfect. And I didn’t think that about Bernie (and O’Mara, with his giant hunk of concrete and his tired discredited lies, was just ridiculous.) But if you read the pro-Zimmerman people, they said things like “John Guy’s closing was evidence-free and nothing but emotions”. Seriously? He talked about the only evidence we really have: the story of the killer, the lack of serious injuries, the lack of DNA on the victim, and the many ways in which the killer’s story doesn’t add up. And of course, when I hear the defense arguments they seem completely weak and stupid. But I’m biased as well. Since people like us who seek out and comment on the case are completely entrenched in what we think, I don’t think anything we have to say, for or against Zimmerman, about the closings carries much weight.

        I’m hoping that the six jurors were not entrenched coming in and are open to hearing the evidence as it really is.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          Where’s Puck? Puck explains well this vision from two different worlds – the conservative and the progressive mindsets.

          • Yes, he’s studying sociology in grad school…lots of helpful insight.

          • Puck says:

            I’m here. Social and cultural beliefs are constructs that are learned through socialization (from the moment one is born throughout their entire life). However, what has come to the fore on the Right, especially since Obama was first elected, is what I call the mainstreaming of delusion. Many call it Obama Derangement Syndrome (e.g. birtherism, death panels, FEMA concentration camps), but its roots go further back, and the current state of confirmation bias, cognitive dissonance, groupthink, and an inability to even “hear” facts that conflicts with one’s beliefs (based on their own “facts”), let alone consider the possibility that these might be true.

            There are a lot of reasons for this, and I’ve done a ton of research and critical analysis from sociological/social psychological perspective. Much of it boils down to the primal fear of the Other, which is largely at the heart of all of this “Take our country back!” Tea Party stuff. I think someone wrote above or in another post about white privilege being chipped away, and those whose minds and social beliefs, behaviors, and actions depend so greatly on this privilege. The realization that a black president was elected by a coalition of Others (who, in fact, represent the reality of America in the 21st century) is a dagger through the collective heart of racists, those who aren’t racist but harbor racial resentment, and those who aren’t racist but are highly conservative in their cultural and social beliefs and see a threat from these Others — who are collectively embodied in a black man. The Others have chosen a black man as the national and international avatar of America, and the racists and far-Right can’t take it. A black man has been twice elected to lead the most powerful nation in the world, indeed generally considered the most powerful person in the world (though some might debate this). Such a dramatic reversal in a symbolic power dynamic incites not only fear, but hysteria and rage. What else but those visceral emotions, and the psychological and psychosocial effects they have in informing behavior and action, can get older, white, usually racist, disproportionately Evangelical people (who probably spat on protesting hippies in the 60s) off their couches and away from Fox “News” to travel to Tea Party rallies such as Glenn Beck’s 9/12 march or Tax Day protests?

            There’s also the rejection of science among many on the Right. Climate change, female reproductive anatomy, even mathematics as they rejected objective polls showing Obama cruising towards victory in favor of completely unscientifically “unskewed” polls that supported their bias? Romney himself was relying on this type of data. The saying “you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts” no longer applies, because now they have their own “facts.” That’s why Trayvon is still characterized by many as a 6’3″, 190+ pound thug even as the autopsy report clearly shows his real height and weight. I’m sure all of you noticed how ridiculously taller the cardboard Trayvon was compared to the cardboard GZ. Make his shoes taller, make his hood taller than the top of his head — and then these are “factual” depictions of the two.

            Neuropsychology is now starting to show fundamental differences in brain structure between progressives and conservatives. I haven’t gone near this in my research, because it’s very difficult to present this without being called a Nazi eugenicist. But if you’re interested, you should check out “The Republican Brain: The science of why they deny science — and reality” by Chris Mooney. And please, don’t shoot me, the messenger, as if I were the one making these assertions.

            I could go on and on. I might repost part of the conclusion of that big paper I mention far too frequently. Unfortunately, I can’t give a link to it or email it because it would make me doxable. (I also can’t use specific terms I’ve coined or use in the title, either, which significantly limits my discussion in posts like this.) Perhaps once the dust is settled on this case those still interested can get in touch with me. But I’ll give you a taste of the very end, where I throw caution to the wind and totally go off on a polemic.

          • Puck says:

            @edruminations : if that info came from my defunct blog, it’s no longer current. I finished school some time ago.

          • Puck says:

            And reading through my tl;dr post, I see some wonkiness in sentence structure, though I’m sure you good people get what I mean in those cases.

        • aussie says:

          That’s why they weeded out anyone who knew too much. Both sides would be happy with someone who’s already taken their side, but of course the other side won’t have that. So between them they got a jury that wasn’t living under a rock but hasn’t taken enough interest to take sides, either.

          The bias goes deeper than confirmation. It goes down to what counts as evidence. Anything they don’t believe is not evidence. They start out from a belief and accept ONLY items which confirm it. Not easy, when a lot of what they believe was made up of whole cloth, often by the same people themselves.

          If you remember back to the earliest days, people here were poring over the minute details of evidence as it was released. Beliefs and theories were based on that, and amended as more evidence came out.

          By now there’s heaps of bias, for sure. But based on evidence plus on rejection of the demonising of Trayvon and his family.

          However, leaving out the content, the prosecution closings were a lot better than the defence’s, just on presentation: tone, vividness, lack of repetition, and respect for the jury’s intelligence.

          Let’s hope it was enough.

    • rnewton32 says:

      That was ignorant on her part to say he is not racist. She doesn’t know Fogen from Adam or Eve. Does she honestly believe that Fogen would be open with her to reveal his inner most demons. His only concern is what can you contribute to get me off. Why would he show his racist side to the very team defending him. Even in silence he lies. He’s already made racist statements about Mexicans and others. She didn’t even answer the question correctly. She just assumed racist meant racist against AA. A mistake the majority of these nimrods make. There are other races you can be racist against. Even though she is not getting paid, She’s just an opportunist in the sense to get that experience under her belt for her future career. She should of just said I don’t know. But if she did she would be contradicting herself when she says she would not work for a racist (especially if you are uncertain if he/she is a racist).

      • Two sides to a story says:

        The black intern came into the picture when Fogen is locked in a position to kiss azz and appear in whatever way works in his favor. She wasn’t around when his defense team was behaving as though he is disgusting. You recall how they used to barely talk to him at the defense table and walk away from him like the toxic man he is.

        And I have no doubt that O’Mara would lie through his teeth to a black law student to get her on his team just for appearances’ sake. I think the girl is willfully blind, but it’s an opportunity of a lifetime even still. Perhaps she’s a Condoleeza Rice type. Hopefully she’ll take her experience and fight for her people.

        • Nellie Nell says:

          The cousin that he molested said that the family only like African Americans who “act” white and/or talk like they are white. In others words, those that speak like Rachel and Trayvon less than those that speak proper English and are educated. Meanwhile, he graduated at the bottom of his high school class.

          For the intern to say that she was told by a lying lawyer that the client is not racist is the most ridiculous thing she could have said. MOM would not know what is in fogens heart. She is foolish to repeat that. She may be smart by working the case, career wise and I am not mad at her for working the case. I do not appreciate her trying to defend fogen.

      • SearchingMind says:

        If you think someone is smart because they are- or call themselves lawyers or are in- or went to law school, well think again. The stupidity of this 34, and I mean 34yrs 3RD YEAR LAW STUDENT (!!) is, indeed, immense.

    • Sabrina B. says:

      Of course he is not going to be racists to her. He wants her to help get him off. I can’t stand people that say well, he/she/it was never displayed any signs towards me so that means they aren’t. Those people, IMO, simply justify and excuse it happening in others. I, being of a lighter complexion than many family members, can certainly see where I have been treated differently than my cousins. Or my darker co-workers. I was sensitive to that as a kid and knew that it wasn’t right or okay. No matter how much further up the rung, in life I go, I won’t ever turn a blind eye to what is clearly racists. She sat there and heard them box Trayvon into a category to which he did not fit, simply based upon his race. SMH The things we do to each other.

    • SearchingMind says:

      This lady does not yet understand that she was a tool/a useful idiot for the defense. During the trial, she had to walk over to GZ now and then, pass something to him (GZ) or pour him (GZ) some water, pat him (G) with affection on the back/shoulder while returning to her seat. This was all designed to tell the all women jurors that (a) look ladies, women are very comfortable with GZ and (b) GZ is not a racist. She was “hired” for no other reason, something this bimbo did not understand.

    • Tzar says:

      she looks good from far
      I will just keep it that way

      • SearchingMind says:

        Tzar, I hope this lady becomes part of history’s garbage as soon as possible. She could not (un)tie the shoes of the likes of Nathalie Jackson, Esq., who work tirelessly to undo the kind of damage caused by this kind of ignoramus. She could not even provide a single sentence or coherent answer as to why she thinks GZ is not racist. She knows GZ is not racist because she “just knows” it?! I wonder why O’Mara did not let this lady do the closing argument for the defense. She could have gotten the jury to acquit GZ within ONE hour. No kidding.

  141. Carmen says:

    Could someone please explain the following;

    CAC and Fogen.

  142. Carmen says:

    I just recently graduated from law school and I have learned so much from this website and Professor Leatherman.

  143. smokeegyrl says:

    This is going to upsetting, so make sure you have some tissue next to you as I am dropping tears now.

  144. jodiwankanobi says:

    if i go to sleep i just know the jury will come back with a verdict

  145. State Attorney Angela Corey fires information techonology director who raised concerns in Trayvon Martin case.


    State Attorney Angela Corey fired her office’s information technology director Friday after he testified last month about being concerned prosecutors did not turn over information to George Zimmerman’s defense team in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin.

    On the same day attorneys finished their closing arguments in that nationally watched trial, a state attorney investigator went to Ben Kruidbos’ home about 7:30 a.m. to hand-deliver a letter stating Kruidbos “can never again be trusted to step foot in this office.”

    The letter contended Kruibos did a poor job overseeing the information technology department, violated public records law for retaining documents, and noted he was questioned in March when the office was trying to determine who had leaked personnel information obtained through a computer breach.

    • Sophia33 says:

      I think he did it to try to set up the SA office. Good for her.

    • Woow! says:

      I read his termination letter. This guy was angry he was demoted.

      I do not feel sorry for him. He knew what he was doing. Let’s see if White or MOM give him a job in their offices.

    • That was to be expected.

      The poor guy made a huge professional mistake raising his concerns outside his team’s hierarchy and even worse going to the rival team.

      I don’t know if he’s been dragged by the apparent rivalries within SA Angela Corey’s team or if he simply chose to go against his employer. In any case, his carrier as IT may be over.

      When I saw Kruidos in the witness box, I felt pain for him as I could not see any private or public entity trusting him with their information.

      • SearchingMind says:

        Wes White would run against-, defeat and replace Angela Corey as the SA in the next election. If that happens, Ben Kruidbos will become Nr.2 in the administration of the SAO. Somehow this folly was communicated to Ben Kruidbos. And he (Ben Kruidbos) believed it and thereupon became a spy. I pity him (Ben Kruidbos) not. On the contrary. Ben Kruidbos was very calculating, cunning and poisonous. I saw firsthand the mischief in his eyes when he was answering questions both from O’Mara and Bernie. He knew exactly what he was doing and he hoped to gain from it. His only weakness is this: he ain’t very smart.

        • Woow! says:

          I tried to tone down my comment regarding Krubidos but it appears he let someone onto the state’s servers.

          I always wondered how much info MOM was really giving to CTH. Now this shed a little light on where the info was coming from.

          He should count his blessing they did not arrest him.

          CTH should be careful before the DOJ start sniffing aroung their trunk.

      • Malisha says:

        I sure wouldn’t trust him with MY information.
        Let him go to work for the NRA. Or the Tea Party. They need IT people. Oh wait, the Tea Party wouldn’t hire anyone who got on the wrong side of Corey … HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

        Let him go to work for THE ONION newspaper; he can divulge FAKE secrets!

      • Tzar says:

        When I saw Kruidos in the witness box, I felt pain for him as I could not see any private or public entity trusting him with their information.

        not me I thoroughly enjoyed his excoriation
        Choosing this case to grind his ax, shows just how little he thinks of the process and the victim.

      • Jun says:

        Once a backstabber, always a backstabber

        Why would White hire him, when he stuck it to Corey and them? He could just as easily do the same to White and considering how sheisty White is, he will have a lot of secrets to hide. His career is over, that’s the gist of it.

    • Yorazigo says:

      Back in February when I first started posting here I had read at the CTH (where i checked out from time to time what they were saying – ugh!) a comment by someone who said they had received documents leaked from BDLR’s office. When defense accused BDLR of misconduct and brought Wesley White and Kruidbos to testify, my 1+1=2 was that the CTH comment and defense’s allegations against Bernie were tied together.

    • smokeegyrl says:

      I have said this before… if he had thought that the State was at fault for doing something wrong. He should have gone a step higher in his reporting than even Angela Corey’s office, if he didn’t trust her. There are levels you can take. I also blame the lawyer Mr White who worked for the State Attorney’s office before. Mr. White should’ve took it to the State Attorney’s General’s office not O’Mara’s office that was a wrong move in the first place. Now look at them!

  146. Woow! says:

    I think the jury already knows CAC is guilty. They are just trying to figure out if they M2 or manslaughter and which lesser charges.

  147. Valerie says:

    HLN reports Ben Kruidbos, the IT director for the State Attorney’s office has been fired.

    • ay2z says:

      That was fast! Did they wait until the jury was sequestered before announcing that?

    • My Forehead Tho says:

      Good. Hopefully he changed professions because he’ll never work in another law firm again.

      • aussie says:

        No non-law company would want someone that untrustworthy around their computers and data, either.

        I think he did this for a spot of revenge for that earlier investigation. The work he did on the phone contents was not part of his job, he did it for his own amusement. That part I can understand — the chance to decode some interesting data. But the way he brought it out was a revenge move, probably knowing he’s close to being fired anyway. .

      • elle says:

        Or anything related to medical.

    • cielo62 says:

      Valerie- good! What he did was illegal. Stupid idiot.


  148. Sabrina B. says:

    Good morning everyone. I see the jury has begun it’s deliberations for the day. I can see them pushing to get a decision today, as I am sure they want to go home. And because of their desire to push through rather than break a few times during the trial.

  149. Boyd says:

    If Fogen was dropped with one punch by Martin’s weak left hand. How hard would Martin have punched when he saw the gun?

    Or the flurry of devastating punches Martin would have thrown and landed while Fogen was getting the gun out. It would have knocked him out.

    When they play Martin up th be this Muhammed Ali like guy, then why would he at the most critical time be too weak to prevent being shot.

    • I wish the Pros said that one hit on concrete and your head “would explode”. You would be done. Put your head and tap the concrete in the jury room. There is absolutely no way someone could pound your head into concrete more than once and you would be able to function in any fashion”. While using M’OM’s display against him.

      • Boyd says:

        good point. too much to go over and we’ve been on it a long time

      • Two sides to a story says:

        When I was about ten years old, a neighbor boy straddled me in his driveway and tried to pound my head on the concrete. Point is, he only managed to do so once, and it didn’t leave a bruise or cut. Second point is that you do resist when someone tries to do that and it becomes hard for them to do it a second time, let alone a repeated number of times. You tend to tighten your muscles and not allow them to pick up your shoulders or your head. That’s why Fogen’s head-slamming story doesn’t add up for me.

        • Rachael says:

          If they would have been able to, despite your tightening up your muscles, you would have been SOOO sore the next day, not hopping in and out of cars or up steps the next day. You would be hurting bad.

          • Two sides to a story says:


            I also forgot to mention that with your arms free, you apply as much force as you can to push the person away and also you work hard to roll the person off. Not just to “shimmy” – you use every muscle in your body to get the person on top off. My neighbor kid was also punching me, though I think in the shoulder and not in the face.

        • abbyj says:

          Two sides, First, sorry that happened to you. Argh. Awful. Second, what was Fogen? A floppy rag doll? He and his lyin’ attorneys asked us to believe far too much that defies human nature and instinctive physical responses. Not to mention the evidence that exonerates Trayvon. I couldn’t agree more with you. The head-slamming story is total crap.

  150. sadlyyes says:

    from the article

    Florida again

    A driving force behind the push for ever-tougher sentences is the for-profit prison industry, in which Wells Fargo is a major investor…. Wells Fargo has been busy expanding its stake in the GEO Group, the second largest private jailer in America. At the end of 2011, Wells Fargo was the company’s second-largest investor, holding 4.3 million shares valued at more than $72 million. By March 2012, its stake had grown to more than 4.4 million shares worth $86.7 million.

    The GEO Group, which is headquartered in Florida,

    WELLS FARGO worst bank in the foreclosure crisis


  151. SearchingMind says:

    My good friend Tee, you are wrong. Dead wrong. GZ has vehemently refused/refuses to take responsibility for the Evil he did. GZ justifies his murder of a kid proudly, makes hundreds of thousands of dollars off that dead kid and smears his name and reputation in the most vile, venomous manner. We thus await the triumph of Good over Evil, of Truth over Lies. We will celebrate that triumph – to heal and strengthen our society, to protect our society from future GZs and bring some form of closure to Ms. Fulton and Mr. Martin. It all has nothing to do with GZ the man. I couldn’t care less about that odorous dunce called George Zimmerman.

  152. MDH says:

    I lived and worked in Northern Va.

    My wife and I had a discussion about GZ’s views on “Mexicans”.

    That is a “tell” in and of itself. There are not many Mexicans in Northern Va, if one just goes about their daily life without fear of the other such that stopping by a 7-11 for a coffee or big gulp is an experience about as traumatic as taking a morning pee.

    Northern Va has Hondurans, Guatemalans, El Salvadorans etc… who are actually quite nice if you say hi to them.

    As I said above in another post, I have rejected the idea of race altogether. So I have a hard time seeing generalizations attributed to a group as anything other than a futile exercise in abject stupidity.

    However, a colleague of mine says that people who are on the fringes of what is perceived to be a racial in-group often suffer from a marginality complex. A classic case is Hitler.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      As a response to your post, I am going to quote a comment by a fellow poster:

      >DOCJT said this to a another poster:

      Let me just say this…you will never be able to relate to Blacks, or any other minority, as equal individuals until you stop trying to predict their thoughts and behaviors and reactions from your white perspective.

      You are going to have to be willing to leave the safety net of white privilege for a minute, and actually admit that you know nothing of the Black experience in this country, and the only way to learn about it is to understand that you know nothing because you have lived with the protective umbrella of white privilege your whole life.

      This is not an accusation. It is simply the truth of this society.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Post note to those reading the above quote:

        Over the next few weeks, the person that DOCJT wrote that to, went from being a covert racist to a blatant racist.

      • MDH says:

        The truth is that our society is still based on the concept of white supremacy.

        How would you debunk this concept?

        IMO, the first step is to delegitimize the flawed science that gives basis to the concept.

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:

          I know that white privilege exists and that I benefit by it.

          Nothing to feel guilty about….I did not ask for it……it was bestowed on me at birth. No need for me to become defensive about it.

          But, I do have a responsibility of recognizing all the examples of it as they become evident to me and I do have the responsibility of educating my friends and others as to its existence.

          Only then can there be change.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            Within by being, I denounce white privilege every day as well as renouncing it.

            Unfortunately, it is deeply embedded in the institutions and power structures of our society.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            Some of the examples of my white privilege that I have become aware of are

            1.When reading a newspaper about a person of my race, I can expect that the writer of the article will not identify that person as being white.
            2. If somebody of my race commits a crime, I will not hear anyone using that person and his crime to stereotype my race.
            3. I know that I will not have to face inconveniences such as going to a hotel and not finding shampoo samples that will not work for my hair.
            4. Speaking of hair, I can be assured that no person will piss me off by asking to touch my hair.
            5. I know that when I walk down the street, no one is going to clutch her purse tightly when she sees me.
            6. I know that no one is going to come up to me and ask me to speak for my race.

            I can go on and on with many more examples.

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:

          I have read a book on the history of whiteness by a college professor that speaks to screwy development of the concept of race.

          However, to many people and even institutions are using the term “colorblind” to try to show that they are not prejudiced.

          The problem with this is that a person’s color is obvious. To be colorblind is to ignore another person’s identity, experience, and wonderful, unique being. Diversity in our country should be treasured and appreciated.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            Here is a link to an article entitled “Colorblindness: the New Racism?”


          • MDH says:

            That last paragraph speaks volumes. What I meant about rejection of race is that the concept becomes a prison that prevents an individual from enjoying the diversity of life in that one will see something that appeals to them, but asks “oh, that is for those people”.

            Take a look at the best guitar player threads on Daily Kos. It becomes a list of white players in a very narrow genre.

            Look at what Chris Blackwell did to Catch a Fire in order to make it palatable to “white” taste. It became over polished.

            Peter Tosh was right to call him Whiteworse.

            I bought Catch a Fire with both Blackwell’s final editing and the original work done by the Wailers.

            One might as well pitch Blackwell’s work out the window.

            We are all equally different and equally valid.

            I do agree that, as a white man, the white privilege drilled into our brains leads us to lecture down at people of color rather than keeping our mouths shut, eyes and ears open to learn something.

            The “colorbind” idea is merely thinking that the world would be a better place if all the square pegs that are individuals are hammered into the round hole that is arbitrarily defined by and as white.

            Look at the hullabo about braids.

          • vickie s. votaw says:

            I totally agree

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            The more we educated our white friends and acquaintances about the white privilege taken for granted the better will be the chance to see change.

            Of course, this is only step one.

            Sadly, the white power system and institution has a strong lock hold on our society.

        • MDH says:

          A good example of white privilege applicable to this trial is Tracy Martin.

          If Tracy Martin was a white man, then he could have had the privilege of venting his rage in public with most, if not all, of these ass clown talking heads nodding in agreement at his rightful anger at GZ killing his boy.

          Instead, he had to suffer in silence as that friend of the GZ family lied to get him removed.

          Instead, he had to suffer the indignity of the ass clowns in the media and the ass in court arguing that T brought his death on himself.

          Woe be to the black male who gets angry.

          It should be a right, not a privilege to be angry about the unjust death of your child.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:


          • texad says:

            And the fact that he couldn’t show his anger means that it is all bottled up. Neither he nor Sybrina have been able to work thru their grieving process. Justice will be served when GZ hears GUILTY. After that I want Tracy, Sybrina, Jahvaris, Rachel and all who knew and loved Trayvon to have time to grieve and remember the boy they loved so much. Repressed anger is not good.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Another classic case is Sundance Cracker.

    • DruDo says:

      MDH, I agree. I live in Northern Va., as do other family members, and our children are fortunate to have grown up with those of many varied ethnic backgrounds, races and gender preferences. Sadly, there will always be those who consider themselves “superior” to others, but our children do not agree with this misconception. They have no pre-conceived notions about others. They have always seen this as an opportunity to learn and appreciate someone else’s thoughts and feelings.They only care about what’s in someone’s heart, and to them, and us, as their parents, that’s all that matters. When I heard Mr. Guy say what he did about what was in GZ’s heart, I was glad and absolutely agreed because hatred, ill will and bias will destroy a human being and, as in GZ’s case, also destroy others.

  153. KateW says:

    Besides this murder, what really bothers me is the SPD attempt to assist this guy in covering up the murder of a Black person. They knew he was lying to them and during the interviews were skeptical of his narrative. But then they began leading his and helping to craft his story. This is unacceptable! If the law is allowed to be biased and assist criminals, I don’t care what color they are, in concealing a crime then this is disturbing and very very troubling! I understand we are human with emotions and feelings; however, the law and their enforcers are supposed to be the equalizers seeking justice for victims and not assisting criminals to assail victims of crime.

    • Claire says:

      Yep…I sorta agree.

      I strongly agree that the institution of the Sanford Police Dept. worked against justice for Trayvon.

      Serino wanted to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter but the people above him, including Lee, said no.
      In terms of the interview with Zimmerman, I heard the deep skepticism and the leading questions. I also heard BS where Serino assumed Zimmerman would have trauma, Singleton justifying Zimmerman’s actions by talking about how God would be OK if Zimmerman shot in self-defence, and Serino indirectly alluding to anti-Black stereotypes – ‘oh this one has a family who cares and is asking questions, I want to prepare you for that’…as if Black families do not care about our kids. Serino and Singleton especially, performed absolutely abysmally and unethically in court.

      Yep this is where white supremacy as a system, not talking about KKK, comes in – in terms of assisting criminals, in the very clear way you put it.

      • aussie says:

        You have to allow for good cop/bad cop methods, to keep the person talking instead of clamming up. A lot of what they said, Serino in particular, is to keep GZ talking and thinking he’s in the clear and then talk some more.

        But there is an old boys’ club kind of atmosphere there, and a wannabe like GZ is an almost-member, They may think he’s a bit of a nuisance or laugh behind his back, but when push comes to shove, he counts as one of them rather than as one of “them” the outsiders or not-quite-humans.

        And this is before anyone’s fathers start calling in old favours….

        • KateW says:

          There is a difference with allow the suspect to speak and then speaking for him. For example the state he made “That is you screaming for help.” When playing the 911 tape or allow the suspect to stop and correct himself when initially (tape #3) when the killer says it was Trayvon screaming for help. You ask questions. You let them talk. However, you don’t make statements for them(leading) or interrupt them when they make an “error” in their statement. Maybe you ask the question again, but you don’t stop them when you hear a problem with their story and allow them the opportunity to catch what they had said.

    • Black progression against racial bias hasn’t ended, they’ve simply moved up to the next barricade. This time its dealing with people who deny racism even exists even if that means covering up the murder of a black child. So not only is the SPD in on it, so is Frank Taffe, GZ’s entire family, Jenna Lauer(I think that’s the witness that pissed me off), as well as the media giants who refuse to explain something simple as a bullet hole underneath the button on TM’s hoodie.

      Honestly people, 46 calls on black people standing around including a 7 to 9yr old kid accusing him of being a thief? A cousin who confirms GZ’s entire family hates black people? Hatefully racist tweets by jr that castigate the entire race? Sr writes a book that says black people are the real racist? A suspected tweet by Frank Taffe that calls mary Cutcher a N-word lover? And yet we have to endure the argument that race has nothing to do with this case.

      • Claire says:

        Yep! Do you know why Cutcher didn’t testify?

        • Puck says:

          She did a bunch of TV interviews, so that would have come up in cross-examination to impugn her credibility or her reasons for being a witness, I guess.

          • Claire says:

            Yeah thought so RE: her interviews….really sucks. She was so adamant in her interviews…argh! TY.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Sounds like a racist to me. In fact, Fogen sounds like a racist who, as his cousin explained, likes blacks only when they behave like whites and speak the queen’s English. The black intern on the defense team doesn’t seem to grasp this concept because she’s highly educated, passes snuff in the racist white world.

    • Sabrina B. says:

      Totally agree. If there is no consequence for their actions in this matter, what will stop them from doing so again and again, and actually being more careful next time. That was truly heinous. That man should not have been allowed to walk our of that interview room with all of those lies. At the very least, the decision should have been made by investigators to CYA in case this backfires, tox screens on fogen, DNA testing of fogen’s hands, mandatory ER evaluation, especially based on the claim. And never simply allow him to go wash up in the bathroom. Especially since, like Serino said, they did not know what might or might not have been caught on the cellphone. Completely inept department even in the cover ups.

      • KateW says:

        Leroy I concur. Sabrina good point! They also assisted him by not performing a thorough and full investigation. I forgot about the tox screen. They did not impound his vehicle either as that is part of the crime scene. He could have had drugs in his car, other weapons or information pertaining to the crime like motive or other pertinent evidence.

        • When It comes to the tox screen, I can’t even call them incompetent. If you get in a car accident and someone gets hurt, tox screen, hurt on the job, tox screen, weaving in traffic, tox screen, beat up your girlfriend, tox screen, kill a black kid, uhhhh we forgot?

          They didn’t forget to give GZ a tox screen, they intentionally prevented him from getting one. That’s why he didn’t go to the hospital either. Why would they prevent it? Because he was dirty. If he was clean, they would’ve put it out for the whole world to see.

          • anita says:

            They protected him from the tox screen & all the rest. A whole bunch of them need fired, but nothing will ever happen. I just hope to God they don’t have a ringer on that jury. We’ll find out soon.

          • anita says:

            My husband wanted me to add– “he was one of them”

    • Nellie Nell says:

      Can you imagine what they do when no ones looking?

    • Malisha says:

      Tim Smith’s squad car tape-recorder. NO WAY did he ride Fogen down to the station both of them silent. Remember, according to Ayala, Fogen was telling the EMT’s, “I was yelling for help but nobody helped me” so he was already yammering away trying to explain the various elements of the scene as witnessed by those around him. HE SPOKE and SO DID TIM SMITH.

      Look at the things Fogen said to provide explanations for things he realized were seen or heard:

      1. Looking for an address
      2. Jumped on his body to see if there were weapons in his hands
      3. Ambushed by “the suspect” who had “emerged from the darkness”
      4. Yelling for help but nobody would help.

      All said to explain away:

      1. People realizing he followed Trayvon;
      2. People having witnessed him ON TOP of Trayvon;
      3. People who knew he had confronted Trayvon; and
      4. People who heard Trayvon’s frantic screams.

  154. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    If you look at the make-up of Zimmerman’s family the father looks like the Grand Wizard of the KKK. It is so obvious this family and associates are racist. Let’s see if this jury sends a message to people like this.

    You will not stalk children walking with Ice Tea and a bag of Skittles.

    • Michael Stewart says:

      Every time I see Zimmerman senior, I hear banjo music. Grown-up, that kid from “Deliverance” could be his twin brother.

      • MDH says:

        The connection to Deliverance is telling a story that is based on lies and having it fall apart based on common sense.


        Q: How can a canoe go upriver?

        A: I don’t know.

        Q: How come Drew wasn’t wearing his life jacket?

        A: I don’t know

        GZ trial:

        How does blood defy gravity?

        A: Don’t know

        How does GZ’s blood get washed away from T, but not GZ?

        A: Don’t know.

        Another connection is that law enforcement seemed to know the truth, but had an interest to just let sleeping dogs lie {Y’all can take my use of lie for a pun}.

    • aussie says:

      C’mon guys, you can’t say what someone is by looking at him., That’s what started this whole mess, remember?

      • Michael Stewart says:

        My comment (dripping with sarcasm) was made specific to Senior’s physical appearance, unrelated to whatever racial politics he may or may not endorse.

        As a former magistrate, he could be a fair minded champion of civil rights for all I know; but if some of his pubic statements are any indication, I kinda doubt that he is.

      • Rachael says:

        Agreed aussie. Thank you.

      • HeresLookingatYou says:

        Is this not the guy that just did an ebook and every black person and organization he could think he called racists…..I don’t care what he looks like but there is no question of how he acts…

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Are you old enough to remember Howdy Doody? Fogen Sr. looks like an aging Howdy Doody to me.

  155. Deborah Moore says:

    Georgie Porgy
    Puddin’ and Pie
    Kissed the girls
    And made them cry
    When the boys
    came out to play
    George Porgy
    ran away.

  156. MDH says:

    One of the flawed arguments presented by the right and their enablers in the so-called progressive movement is the arrest rate for black males.


    In statistics, there is selection and self confirmation bias.

    For example, if 1/10 of both X and Y are rapists, but I select Y five time more than X for an absolute confirmation, then there will be five times more of Y in jail for rape.

    Why do I bring this up?

    In NYC, the police stop and frisk people of color about five times more frequently than a white person, yet the white people stopped have a higher rate in absolute terms of having contraband.

    Whatever happened to the concept that the guilty slip past to that the innocent don’t suffer.

    OH MY, OH MY the supporter of GZ in progressive community ring that bell loud and clear, yet when the 99% of black males who suffer the indignity of being searched or confronted is brought up, they waffle with some sort of argument that the black community needs to take care of itself – I lurk on Daily Kos {maybe they should be renamed Daily Coward}

    Take care of itself?

    How racist is that?

    If one does not believe in race, then they know that we all belong to the community of man.

    And John Dunne said it best:

    No man is an island,
    Entire of itself,
    Every man is a piece of the continent,
    A part of the main.
    If a clod be washed away by the sea,
    Europe is the less.
    As well as if a promontory were.
    As well as if a manor of thy friend’s
    Or of thine own were:
    Any man’s death diminishes me,
    Because I am involved in mankind,
    And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
    It tolls for thee

    • sadlyyes says:

      the PRISON INDUSTRY in this country is one of the most profitable for WALL STREET…they will keep those prisons full to make investors rich,you can doodle it…we incarcerate more peeps than China with a billion people

      • MDH says:

        And the media foments “divide and conquer” to keep the prisons packed with fresh souls.

      • aussie says:

        In some States it’s very profitable for companies owned by the Governor…………they’re not likely to make laws that reduce prison populations, are they?

        Private for-profit prisons should be outlawed, for starters.

      • Exactly! For Profit Prisons are unethical!!

        I have felt strongly about prison reform for a while….gun violence, too.

        I’m close to somebody with a mental illness….she has no family, and struggles a lot. But ya know what? She has a beautiful heart & soul…despite her mental illness.

        She is high-functioning, but found herself in a desperate situation years ago and got in trouble with the law.

        They screw her over every chance they get. It’s horrible.

        The right meds for her cost, with insurance, $500 a month. She gets cheap meds from Wal Mart, but they have horrible side effects which discourages her from staying on them.

        This country is so upside down….we incarcerate the mentally ill, deprive them of their meds, and offer no rehabilitation.

    • changsterdj says:

      It depends

      if its a serial killer, or pedophile, cops usually look for white males

      Thats how some cops think

      • aussie says:

        AFTER the crime’s been committed.

        They don’t go searching the houses of random white males to see if they have bodies buried in the basement.

        • MDH says:

          When I was a child growing up in Detroit. Our two neighbors were Detroit Police officers. During the 1967 riot, his son used to tell us that “daddy was out shootin’ co.ns”. They had come up from somewhere in Florida. Soon after the riot was over, they moved back because, in the fathers words, Detroit was no longer going to keep “those people” {note I am not going to use the actual vulgar word he spoke}. One thing I noted from those days is the way they said coons. It kind of rhymed with cones.

          So my guess is that the hoodie with the pointed hat is in their closet.

          The other police officer was a hard core John Bircher.

          I must be weird for a white person. I felt my part of Detroit became a better place to live when black people started moving in and all that hate and paranoia left.

          • I guess I’m weird as a white person, too. My mom was an intellectual feminist. We had lots of AA friends…my tennis doubles partner, for example. We were invited to service to several black churches when I was a kid. Mom and I shared a deep love for Maya Angelou & Alice Walker…

            The first racist joke I ever heard was in college. It broke my heart.

            I have never used the “n” word in my life.

            I don’t understand racism…fortunately, it is not in my blood. But…I’m vigilante of any kind of subconscious racism. One cannot rest on one’s laurels. If I grew up in a racist society, I can’t just assume I’m not racist….know what I mean….? I want to always be teachable…and learn more.

        • MedicineBear says:

          Oh, tou-effing-che’!

    • Claire says:

      Racism exists and affects the material conditions and lives of non-white people regardless of whether one wants to believe that race doesn’t exist. A colourblind approach is fruitless. And in light of my slave heritage and the intense anti-Black racism i and many other Black people face-and I have tried to deny my Blackness-I am proud to be who I am and to be associated with Blackness and with other Black people. This is a big part of why I want justice for Trayvon.

      • Yes.

        And racism also hurts racists….just look at how ugly Papa Z is. I don’t say that to be mean. But they don’t realize the cancer in their souls. They have no idea how much pain and guilt they cause themselves.

        They are missing out….

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I absolutely loathe the argument that Fogen’s crime is insignificant simply because black on black crime is high or that our jails are filled with brown people. I do not understand the ignorance – all it takes is a bit of investigating to see why this is so.

  157. Tzar says:

    To be chased not knowing why you are being chased
    To be terrorized without knowing why
    To be killed not knowing why you are being killed


    the boy never got an answer.

    “HELP ME”

    All his requests were ignored
    some were mocked
    He died alone on the cold wet grass

    The shear terror of it all.

    • KateW says:

      Yeah that gun was already out. Trayvon Martin probably had his hand on the guy’s arm trying to keep him from aiming it at him, that is when the killer did his “WRIST MOVE” and got Martin’s left arm out of the way and was able to lift his right arm and aim it into his chest.

      Why lie? Because that is what was in his heart…..he knew he was guilty in what he did. He wanted to kill Trayvon Martin.

      • smokeegyrl says:

        Yeah, I watched on Piers Morgan last night… and just as I have said for a year and now everyone gets it… they all believe that Fogen had his gun out already. He never had it holstered when he was following and searching for the *suspect*.

        • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

          GZ did.. That’s why that boy scream… HELP ME! HELP ME! and when he wouldn’t stop screaming to get attention GZ “Grand Wizard of the KKK” son shot him.

        • KateW says:

          Yes smokeegyrl. I didn’t come to that conclusion until I heard about the wrist move during the trial and when Bernie or John Guy had said John Goode said he saw hand’s going up or down but what John Goode didn’t say was that he saw the killer’s hands. So where was his hands? And that is when it clicked for me. Very sad moment and that is when you know it was the boy screaming for someone to help him.

          • Boyd says:

            yeah probably, mix truth in with half-truths and outright lies.

            “I was reaching for my cell phone” “he must have seen my gun when my jacket lifted up”

            no, you probably were reaching for your gun

      • mrsdoubtfire says:

        Zimmerman started to lie from the second cops arrived.when he realised the importance of TM’s screams and stole them as his own. Am I bleeding e asked Joathan Manalo, not “Help me restrain this guy” He arrived at that re-enactment after spending hours with Air Marshal pal Osterman. Now we get the phony and embellished version of circling the car. He totally omits chasing TM immediately after saying “Shit he’s running” He removes any notion that he ever made TM afraid or that he pursued him. Just count the lies told on that re-enactment tape…..and Sandord PD said they had no probably cause.

        • Nellie Nell says:

          Everything that you say is so very true. His lack of sympathy is incredibly disturbing. He took an oath at the bond hearing and lied by saying he did not know how old Trayvon was and thought that he was a few years younger than his 28 years all the while knowing that the kid he was chasing at the time was a teen.

          When he told Trayvon’s parents that he was sorry that they had to bury their son was a big slap in the face. They would not have had to bury their child if you had not harassed, chased and then killed him.

          GZ is vile.

      • aussie says:

        He wasn’t seeing a human being at any stage in this process. That’s why he feels he’s not guilty.

        He wasn’t killing an unarmed teenager. He was killing a WITNESS.

        He set out to make a big capture of a criminal who’s been making trouble in the area for months. When he found out he’d made a mistake, his whole life-as-he-knew-it was going to be over — no glory, no police or judge job, no adulation, just everyone laughing at him, because he’d unlawfully detained someone innocent.

        One well-aimed bullet was going to change that completely. Was going to grab victory from the jaws of defeat. Turn the shame and failure of the mistaken identity into becoming a HERO for surviving the attack.

        Nothing personal. Just tidying up loose ends.

    • sadlyyes says:

      yes i believe the Hebrews say the name is to be forgotten,but after the Holocaust the phrase..NEVER FORGET was spoken

      • Malisha says:

        Forget the NAME of the evil-doer.
        Never forget to resist evil.
        And “Never Again” was what I heard most often.

    • diary73 says:

      This case brings out the poet in many of us. Thanks Tzar.

    • MedicineBear says:

      I pray the Jury responds to his last pleas for help.

  158. gbrbsbblogs says:

    Good morning Professor, good morning everyone,

    Hope this post arrives as these days I’m posting on a wing and a prayer, as sometimes it does and sometimes it does not.

    I have seen your reply professor, for which I thank you, and and am will be shortly replying directly to yours via my notifications page as I it is more likely to reach you, I may post it here too to see if we can sort out what exactly is happening.

    • Post acknowledged and received.

      • gbrbsbblogs says:

        Thanks for the acknowledgment Professor.

        I have just sent you a post in reply to your reply yesterday which I am going to repeat here so as to ensure you will get it. I am really truly sorry to have been such a problem with all of this, and I do so hope we can sort it out because I really appreciate your blog.

        REPEAT POST should the first one not arrive

        Thank you professor for coming back to me and sorry my reply is a tad tardy.

        Professor, I can assure you that since Monday 8th July, that is the first day I discovered I could not post on your blog (iirc, I didn’t post at the weekend so I can’t tell if working, but it was certainly working Friday 7th), until your reply on July 12th at 12:23 am, to my comment of the same day at 12:09 am, I had received no communication from you. Nor have I received a reply to my reply back to you also on July 12th at 4:02 am. (LINK TO THE THREE COMMENTS I HAVE REFFERED TO) And many fellow bloggers I have got to know and become very fond of, willis, amsterdam, Xena, faux, Cielo, Tzar, etc. because I know there were more and I ask their forgiveness if I have omitted their names, also posted you on several occasions trying to draw attention to my plight, all to no avail and none have told me you had replied to them either.

        As you can see, my first words to you in my reply were:

        Ahhhh, professor! Am I glad to see your fonts!

        Firstly, please don’t think with this reply I can post normally. I rarely can post on the actual blog. I can sometimes do so in reply to another from the notifications page, and now I have this new ID I can sometimes post via email, but no system always works.

        Also in my reply I referred you to a reply I made to aussie in which I described what was happening as I thought it would be better for you rather than adding another long comment on a page already taking time to load.

        No professor, sadly for me the problem has not resolved, so I am unable to post normally on your blog whether with my old ID or the present one. I am sure it has something to do with WP admin and or akisment spam guard, because at the same time it happened on your blog I had exactly the same problem at whonoze’s and Xena’s blogs too. Both whonoze and Xena fixed the problem, so I am back posting on their blogs perfectly and normally, but not on yours, which is very sad for me. If it helps, Xena had to fish me out of her spam, but whonoze must have done something else, because at first instance he told me I wasn’t in his spam but on his admin page and even showing as approved, but whatever he did after telling me that, it worked because I am able to post on his blog normally with either my old ID or the new one.

        In case you want more specifics of what exactly is happening, with neither my old or new ID can I post directly on the page as I am accustomed to, whether by starting a new thread from the bottom of the page, or replying to another poster’s comment, (that said, very occasionally I have been able to post directly on the page for a few hours early in the morning). MY OLD ID: I can reply to posters who have replied to me but only via the notifications bar, NEVER from the blog page. MY NEW ID: As I set it up with a dedicated email and opted to receive email of all posts there, I am able to post as new or reply by email but it is impossible to find the specific posts that I want to reply to, so I have given up and only post as a new thread at the bottom of the page or not at all.

        I do hope this helps, and please reply with anything I can do. I googled to find out what it could be and got results so I am sure there must be a solution and whonoze and Xena are proof of that, so I really hope we can sort it, because although this trial is now at an end, there may be another or another matter altogether, and I have so much enjoyed being a part of your blog, sharing with others a search for justice, and I would not like to miss being able to do so in the future.

        I must ask RVSP because otherwise I have no way of knowing you have actually read this

          • gbrbsbblogs says:

            Thank you so much professor.

            Maybe when whonoze next comments we could ask him what he did to allow me to post again on his WordPress site.

            I did contact WP support, and can do so again, but they advised it was probably due to Akisment’s recent tightening of the criteria which was flagging me as spam, and that I should contact the site owner who by approving my comments would make fine again. However, whonoze didn’t find me in his spam at all, rather he found my posts perfectly normally on his admin page and they showed as being approved too even though they were not figuring on the blog page.

            When suddenly I found I was able to post on his site (I kept trying on and off here and there) I posted him and asked what he had done to make it work but he never replied so I can try again, but I think he is not always attentive to his site from what I have heard but he just may be more attentive to you.

          • gbrbsbblogs says:

            Oh, I forgot to say, if if helps, my internet provider told me I have a DYNAMIC IP address not a static one so it changes every time I connect to the internet which I am told is the most often used here in the UK as it protects against hacking. On the other hand, as I have told you I am able to post at both Xena’s and whonoze’s WordPress blogs, so can’t see that is the problem otherwise they would not have been able to get me back posting on their blogs.

            Thnx again, Professor.

          • gbrbsbblogs says:

            Sorry forgot to also explain, I am unable to post on the blog page with my new ID either, therefore with neither ID am I able to post directly on the page by clicking either “reply” to a poster or “Leave a reply” at the end of the page. When I click “Reply” or in it’s case “Leave a reply” the typical “Posting comment” appears and it shows as working, but once done and the page refreshed the comment is not there.

          • I am absolutely baffled.

          • gbrbsbblogs says:

            Join the club!

            I have to go now, but later or tomorrow I’ll post whonoze again to see if he can tell me what he did that got me posting on his blog again. Perhaps toggling an approval on and off, or maybe there is a setting or something that was changed or that you can change, who knows!

            If you are a paying WP subscriber they may have a better support than the blogosphere one, but I will try again, however as I don’t really know what is happening on your side it is hard for me to say exactly what is happening on your side.

            Please keep hope a bit longer as “somewhere in all this shit there must be a pony”. I’ll be back!

          • gbrbsbblogs says:

            Sorry professor, I have been snowed under these days so I have been unable to get back to you yet about what is happening and to try to find a solution.

            I have posted whonoze today to ask what he did but no so I am waiting for that but no reply as yet. I will be back during the week when I have more time.

          • This comment came through without a problem.

          • gbrbsbblogs says:

            Professor, did you get my two last messages sent today, as follows:

            A. Posted directly on the page of your current post (“What went wrong with the Zimmerman Case”), which did not publish, (it was in reply to a comment you posted there dated July 15, 2013 at 12:25 pm about LLMPapa)

            2. A reply to this reply of yours which has published as July 15, 2013 at 8:00 pm on your post “Jury begins first day of deliberations in Zimmerman trial”

          • gbrbsbblogs says:

            Professor, you are unfortunately missing my point…

            I can ONLY post if I am replying to another blogger’s reply to me and ONLY from the page called “notifications” where WP archives replies other posters have made to my comments.

            I CANNOT post on your blog itself, NOT as a new comment NOR in reply to another’s post. Comments I post directly on the page are showing in your admin as approved but they are not posting on the actual page. The same was happening with my comments at whonoze’s blog but he fixed it.

            The fact is I can post normally on both Xena’s and Whonoze’s blog but NOT on your blog, so it has to be a setting of some sort at your end.

          • gbrbsbblogs says:

            Yes professor, but that is the point, I can only post in reply to a poster who has replied to me at some point and are still listed on my WP “notifications” page but the comments I am replying to are old which you will see if you check the date and your post to which it belongs, “Jury begins first full day of deliberations in Zimmerman case”.

            The problem is I am UNABLE to post from the blog page at all whether as a new comment using the “Leave a reply” box at the bottom of the blog page, or using the “Reply” button to reply to another poster’s comment.

            To show you how this works, I have just posted a test reply on your current post to your comment #205008:

            Frederick Leatherman says:
            July 15, 2013 at 12:25 pm
            I’d love to meet LLMPapa and talk about this case or anything else.

            I’m a big fan of his work.

            After writing my text in the reply box, I clicked “post comment”. The “Posting comment” advice window came up and the whirligig, or whatever it’s called, went round and round, but once it came to rest and the page had refreshed, my comment was not present. I am sure if you check your admin page you will find it there, or if not your Spam.

  159. Tee says:

    I know that I will recieve a lot of backlash for what I’m about to say, but I feel it must be said. I don’t care for Fogen or his family & friends one bit, but this is a man’s iife that we are talking and joking about. Yes he is scared, he’s scared to death we shouldn’t derive joy from someone else pain. He’s a liar & a murderer he will recieve his punishment from man or God, maybe both, but he’s a person and we should be more kind in our heart not for the sake of him but because that’s what makes us better than he and the people he know.

    • Judy75201 says:

      Any joy expressed is a fear that the unthinkable might happen, I believe. I’m not sure I can find kindness in my heart for fogen unless he admits what he did and is remorseful.

    • sadlyyes says:

      this man shows no humanity to his fellow beings,HOLLOW point bullets..he wanted to shoot a dog.this man needs to be caged,so he doesnt kill anything,or anybody anymore imo

    • HeresLookingatYou says:

      No backlash..but I doubt he feels pain or anything else. He and his attorneys and the whole clan have been nasty and smug..if he is scared good if he is fearful good he should feel one little bit of what that child suffered and bet this if they set him free he will continue to be smug and arrogant…I’m not making fun but he should be fearful he created this whole situation.guess he should have stayed in car or gone to target.

    • jodiwankanobi says:

      hi Tee, yes it’s easy to forget that this is about someones life. I must admit every time they show him i feel very sad for what he has done to his own life as well as that of his victims. His behavior since he killed Trayvon and that of his family has made it very difficult to sympathize with him. He fucked up badly, but he is still a person and yes, he would be very scared. It is such a sad time for all involved.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      As I said to my husband yesterday, this whole trial is sad.
      I don’t believe that babies are born with evil in their heart. They are taught that.
      Some horrible things must have happened to GZ in his youth.
      Now, that doesn’t give him a license to be a predator, but I hope he gets some help while he’s in prison.

      • One of many ironies in this case is that GZ and his lawyers display an absence of empathy. What distinguishes O’Mara from West and GZ is that he pretends to care about others. That pretension is part of the mask he wears and his face transforms into something dark and creepy when he stops acting.

        I saw it several times yesterday during John Guy’s rebuttal when the camera briefly switched from Guy to O;Mara.

        Sociopaths and narcissists lack the ability to empathize. The less intelligent ones tend to fail a lot. The more intelligent ones, particularly if they are born into wealth and privilege, end up running things.

        I suspect there is some sort of complex relationship between genetics and environment that produce these unfortunate members of our species.

        These days they seem to be everywhere.

        • sadlyyes says:

          so well stated,the functioning ones,become CEOs,Hitlers,bigshots,tyrants,the others kill people and end up in prison hopefully…MOM,is ugly,dyed hair,false teeth and all
          looks like Ichabod Crane

        • Sophia33 says:

          Yeah, that was evident when MOM said with regards to his questioning of Sabrina that sometimes physicians need to cut.

        • Deborah Moore says:

          Can’t say anything but agree with you.
          And, it’s one of the reasons I’ve withdrawn somewhat from society.
          (Give your lovely wife a hug from me, if you would – as if you need a reason to hug her.)

        • MOM does have a scary face…to think he put Tracy on the stand…and intentionally tipped that photo to Sybrina…ugh.

        • Susan Moore says:

          I think this really showed in O’Mara’s closing. I thought he was remarkably tone deaf to how he would sound to the jury.

      • Sleuth says:

        ~ Deborah, I also share your sentiments. I keep thinking about the reports in the media regarding his strict Catholic religious background.

        An altar boy, who it seems, spent quite a bit time at church. Not intending any disrespect to the many wonderful priest around the world, but I can’t help but wonder if he had been harmed in any way by a priest.

    • type1juve says:

      Sorry, but I can’t muster one bit of sympathy for the killer. Had he shown an inkling of remorse I might feel differently. He murdered TM, stole his death screams and he, his family and attorneys went on to lie on him and smear his memory. I try hard not to hate him and his klan. That’s the best I can do.

      • disappointed says:

        I am with you type1juve. I do not really have feelings for Fogen one way or the other. When I think about him I think about the pain he has caused a Mother, Father and siblings. I think about the words coming out of his mouth. I have no regrets, would do nothing different and God’s plan. IMO God’s plan would come with a sincere apology to the family and begging of his God for forgiveness for taking a life. So no I will not give his life any more thought than he gave his victim and victim’s family.

    • changsterdj says:

      All I want is the truth. The dna, forensics, witnesses do not match his story. There’s no way the kid attacked Fogen considering the forensics. He obviously stalked Trayvon. Trayvon ran away from him.

    • Sophia33 says:


      You have a good heart. I think you are a beautiful person to show him more compassion than he and family have shown. However, it is a natural human response to finally see some of that arrogance and coldness finally slip away. And it enraging to see that it had to come to this for it to happen.

      When I first heard about this, I was willing to entertain that this a tragedy or an accident. Not that I didn’t think that Fogen should have to suffer the consequences. But I felt some sympathy for him in the sense that I was only hearing bits and pieces since I was out of the country. I thought that Fogen was an overzealous Barney Fife who made a horrible mistake. I remember thinking how horrible I would feel if I accidentally killed someone. But NO! Fogen showed no concern what so ever for Trayvon or his family. Then the police interviews were released. He was cold. The Hannity Interview. He was cold and said he had no regrets. It was God’s plan. Then his friends and family started talking. First Pappy then Mama. Then Junior started tweeting. The Osterman and Taaffe. At some point, I got to see how cold-hearted these people were.

      They showed no emotion or care or concern for the Martin family. So yes he is scared. But I have no empathy for him because he has done nothing to cause me to feel empathy for him. He is scared and I have enjoyed watching it because up until now he has presented himself as nothing more than a cold-hearted asshole.

      And look what it took for him to finally show some human emotion. It took for his ass be on the line. Up until now, that is the only relief I have gotten from this. I will feel sorry for him once he is convicted. Until then, the only punishment he has received so far is the painstaking time of waiting for a trial (at which point he seemed unfazed) and now waiting for a verdict (the first time he shows emotion).

      So I undertand how you feel. But I am not in a place to be kind to someone who has shown no compassion for any one. I will say, that Osterman, Taaffe, Pappy, Mama and Junior have been huge contributors to Fogen being the most hated man in America. IMO they didn’t help him at all.

    • MedicineBear says:

      Here’s some of the blowback that you ordered . . .

      I have utmost compassion for those who take responsibility for their actions. He has not. He has not only NOT shown remorse, he has condoned continued trashing of his victim. Fogen blames the victim for his own crimes. That is intolerable and we as a civil humane society show what is unacceptable by what we choose to ridicule, shun, and taboo.

      Just as Esa overturned the merchants’ tables in the Holy Temple, we are demonstrating social outrage at unrepentant Murder2. Esa did not NOT [intentional not NOT] shame the merchants because they were human beings.

      What we do is social shaming which forms our social mores. Ridiculing-shaming-making taboo what Zimmerman has done for which he is unrepentant and/or unpunished is defining what we as a tribe condone or excuse (even tacitly by silence) versus what we vocally-actively will not tolerate. Defining our social mores. It’s not just ridiculing a human being, it’s defining what is socially unacceptable for the future us and the future Trayvons. Our human tribe is not served by turning our heads away from bad behavior or corruption by excuses of “he’s a person” or “she did it to keep her job” or “they make a lot of money from it.” We as a global tribe are in the horrible soup we’re in because we turn our heads in silence and excuse inequities, inequalities, corruption, oppression. Trayvon called the CAC a CAC. He and DD called out the unacceptable bad actor for what he was. A CAC. They were right. Don’t make the TERM “CAC” taboo — make BEING a CAC taboo.

      When GZ is brought to Justice for his crimes against our social humane mores and is serving time to pay his debt to society for being a child-murdering CAC, I will be compassionate for ALL the lives destroyed by George Zimmerman — including George Zimmerman’s life.

      This is why I think the jury will step up and give him M2. M2 unequivocally calls out what he did and makes it clear FOR OUR FUTURE that we, as a society, as humane human beings, do NOT condone this behavior (or the enabling laws) by giving a lesser punishment.

      • vickie s. votaw says:


      • cielo62 says:

        Medicine Bear~ WELL SAID!! You articulated very eloquently what I feel. He deserves no compassion UNTIL he shows remorse. Otherwise we do indeed give him a positive emotion for something he won’t even acknowledge.


    • Nellie Nell says:

      Sorry, but it is hard for me to consider him a human being with any feelings at all. In my opinion, if he had any feelings he would not have shot a kid in the heart and then refuse to allow people to aid as well as aid the kid himself. That boy laid face down in that grass and died and no one was there to comfort him, not even his killer and to me that is cold blooded and unworthy of any sympathy. He has never shown any sympathy for Trayvon and that is a hard pill to swallow.

      As I stated in previous posts, I will eventually forgive him for his actions even if he never tells the truth. That is something that I will deal with once he is sentenced.

    • The Truth shall set us free….

      GZ is welcome to honestly disclose what really happened that evening. Until *he* does, he will suffer.

      The irony is that he thinks he’s protecting himself by lying. Eternity is forever….worldly circumstances are not.

      I have forgiveness for GZ. But he has to fix what he broke. That’s what life is all about: doing the next right thing.

      We all make mistakes. If we’re dishonest about them, then they just keep piling up.

      It is GZ’s decision. It’s completely up to him. He can choose fear, or he can choose love. He can choose to lie, or he can choose to be honest. He can be free, or he can be imprisoned.

      But until he is honest with himself, with God, and with his fellow human beings, GZ has blood on his hands. Like Lady MacBeth, he cannot wash the blood off.

    • Malisha says:

      Another thing that makes me better than him and the people supporting him is that I would NOT have killed Trayvon Martin that night or any other night and I have never killed someone, and never expect to kill an innocent person. And another thing that makes me better than him is that if for some reason I DID kill someone, I would be very upset for having done it, VERY!

  160. MrTEN4 says:

    Weighing in on the Florida v. Zimmerman trial… A 10-4 perspective

    It is very unfortunate that Trayvon Martin, a 17 year old young man, lost his life on his way home from a nearby store with only an Arizona tea and Skittles in his possession. My heart goes out to his parents and the family including the loved ones that were directly impacted as well as those that can relate to his situation under like circumstances.

    After I initially heard about this case I gravitated towards the support of Martin rather than George Zimmerman because of the issue that he followed an alleged ‘suspicious’ person (which happened to a black male in hoodie walking in a light rain) that per testimony he described as a “kid” after being instructed by a 911 operator to not do so… and that “kid” ended up being dead. Was it illegal for Zimmerman to follow the teenager? No. Was it stalking? No. Was it a compromise of judgment considering you have police en route (to whom which you have called) to remedy the situation? Yes. There are many speculative questions that we could be asked but the following is one thing we know for sure. If Zimmerman had not followed Martin on the night of February 26, 2012 he would not be dead by the hands of the man on trial today for 2nd degree murder.

    In addition to stating my perspective on this case I want to also address some of the Trayvon Martin supporters who have expressed bias in regard to this tragic incident. I find it stubborn and illogical that some of you have a notion that Martin didn’t strike Zimmerman at all. Here’s why… How many people aside from competent 17 year old males would not have at least tried to fight for their life? If able, you can expect one to do anything possible to preserve their life if they felt it were in imminent danger. After all, the alternative would be for him to just accept a life-ending bullet to the heart while not trying to prevent it. The reason I think these theories come into play is because one assumes that if he may have hit him he would be wrong or unlawful. Not necessarily true.

    I am a conservative Texan who believes in the right for someone to ‘stand their ground’, although I wasn’t raised to think nor believe that ‘standing your ground’ has to include the aid of a gun. Again, there are many different speculative situations we can make about this case but I want to concentrate on what has transpired in the court of law in Florida. My logic and interpretation of the evidence leads me to believe that George Zimmerman was the aggressor during the altercation between him and Trayvon Martin. (This all leads back to him following…) Secondly, to support that claim, I find it very hard to believe that an appointed Neighborhood Watch Coordinator whom has lived in the residential area for more than 3 years would not know the address of where he was located the night of the killing; not to mention that there are only 3 streets in the entire neighborhood (Plus there’s a townhome with the address displayed under a light in clear view where Zimmerman exited his vehicle – 211). Let’s also not forget the fact that he had previously made several emergency and non-emergency phone calls about suspicious activity with no problems of giving an address to police in that appointed position. The alternative… You mean you have an appointed Neighborhood Watch Coordinator who doesn’t know his 3 street neighborhood?? Yea, I’m not buying that one. Sorry.

    We know at some point the two met up and a struggle occurred. Per testimony Zimmerman says Martin approached him in the dark after yelling at him. Now, remember there’s a light rain and it’s poorly lit in the area the two are standing at this point. It is very hard for me to process the fact that Zimmerman, a man that knowingly has a concealed weapon (which he carries virtually all the time -per testimony) would not have pulled it out before Martin was within arm’s reach of him. Keep in mind Zimmerman already believes that Martin is a potential threat to his neighborhood and is acting rather ‘suspiciously’ as he walks in the rain with “his hand in his waistband”. Let’s also not exclude the fact that Zimmerman believes Martin is “on drugs or something”. I can’t speak for all of course but how many concealed handgun owners do you know, with the weapon on their person, that would run into a poorly lit area that you don’t know (remember he doesn’t know the address) chasing a person that you believe is a threat to your neighborhood, acting suspicious with their hand in their waistband, possibly high on drugs without drawing your weapon once the alleged criminal begins to approach you yelling obscenities? Listen, I have some friends that are law enforcement and everyday citizens (many on Facebook) with their concealed-carry permit that would have already took control of the situation at that point by drawing their weapon without allowing this type of threat to endanger them.

    Let’s keep moving forward… My perspective from the evidence presented allows me to draw conclusions that once the two were in a struggle (after Martin punched Zimmerman in the nose and bloodied it – remember this…) both at some point or another were on top of each other. Not hard for me to believe at all and here’s why… Zimmerman, regardless of how “soft” he is, has had extensive training in MMA or Mixed Martial Arts; 3hrs a day, sometimes more than 3 times a week, over a year’s time-span. Even if he wasn’t the best, at some point a natural reaction to his training will eventually kick in – if not immediately. Martin could have just as easily been on top during a portion of the struggle, even if only momentarily. Keep in mind he’s fighting for his life at this point because by now he has seen the gun.

    We know that George Zimmerman sustained injury to the back of his head. That is a fact. The question is how did it happen? Per Zimmerman’s testimony Martin hit his head repeatedly onto the concrete sidewalk in the area they were struggling. Well, I’m going to be quite frank here… The two minor cuts to the back of his head could not logically have occurred by “repeated” hits to the concrete at full force, up until the point he begins to lose consciousness. I’ve witnesses children fall onto their knees on concrete and have worse abrasions. Additionally, no one witnessed Zimmerman in a ‘foggy’ or ‘dazed’ state including EMS, police, and detectives. Remember when I said “remember this”? Well, Zimmerman also claims that Martin was trying to suffocate him by placing his hands over his mouth and nose while he was trying to yell for “Help!”. Oddly enough, none of Zimmerman’s blood was found on Martin’s hands, fingernails, body, or clothing. Why is that important? By Zimmerman’s account the first physical contact between the two was from Trayvon Martin punching, breaking, and bloodying his nose. Now surely, with a broken bleeding nose his (Zimmerman) blood would have got on Martin’s hands when he tried to suffocate him. Naysayer’s say the rain could have washed it away though, but what about the blood from the fingernails? What about blood that would have got onto his clothes? The blood from Martin’s body wasn’t washed away by the rain.

    Pay attention. I want to talk about something that is really rather shocking to me and should be to you too! After the killing of Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman had his weapon confiscated by police as a standard procedure. So, please tell me WHY there were not ANY of Martin’s fingerprints on the gun (he supposedly grabbed the gun –per testimony) or ZIMMERMAN’s!! How in the world would there not be any of Zimmerman’s fingerprints on the gun that he just got done using moments before police arrived on the scene? Has anyone (mainly the State of Florida; Prosecution) even cared to look into this? Even if Zimmerman had worn gloves that night, although we know he didn’t, he would still have his OWN fingerprints on the gun considering it’s his and he carries it on his person virtually all the time! Something about this fact is very wrong and has slipped through the cracks of the prosecution’s case.

    Here’s my theory to this anomaly… Certainly Zimmerman would have his own fingerprints on the gun and if Martin’s prints were on the gun it would be consistent with Zimmerman’s testimony. So again, why were there NO prints? Well, obviously someone wiped them clean. Now the question is who and more importantly why?! The only reason a person would wipe fingerprints off of his weapon in my logical opinion is that so they could also get rid of something else that was incriminating to the case. That something else could be another person’s fingerprints or physical evidence such as blood, hair, or any type of DNA. Did someone else intervene during or after the killing? Did Zimmerman use his own weapon to inflict his own injuries? Who knows for sure but that should have been the prosecution’s job to present a theory as to what caused there not to be any fingerprints at all on the handgun used to kill Trayvon Martin.

    The State of Florida fumbled and they fumbled quite a bit during this trial in my opinion. Here’s why… There are too many unanswered questions in addition to the previous that the prosecution left out. Why didn’t they call Mary Cutcher to the stand? Why didn’t they call other witnesses to the stand to testify that it was Trayvon Martin screaming for help (as noted by the defense attorney Mark O’Mara)? Why didn’t they prep the Medical Examiner, Shiping Bao, or better yet why did they call him to the stand without doing so? Why did they allow Shiping Bao to testify after Sybrina Fulton, Trayvon’s mother? Why didn’t they use a year’s time to select an adequate Sound Analysis Expert? Will we ever know who was screaming for “HELP” or know if Zimmerman uttered the word “coons”?

    This leads me to my final and most important question of them all… Why didn’t they prove ill-will, hatred, or spite as it’s the requirement for 2nd degree murder in Florida? Some may feel undoubtedly that the State of Florida did prove 2nd degree murder but more than likely these are individuals who may not have been paying close attention to this case or too emotionally invested in this case to see the facts presented in the court of law. “F-ing punks!” “These a-holes, they always get away” – these are statements that I believe demonstrate spite considering moments later a 17 year old black male is killed but other than the powerful opening statements of the trial when have we heard the prosecution use these words to prove spite? Occasionally, here and there, but it wasn’t convincing or nearly as powerful as the opening statements. Ill-will? Perhaps when Zimmerman testified that he spread and held Martin’s arms out after he shot him in the heart? Nope. Once Shiping Bao testified he could change his opinion every hour under oath and that Martin could have possibly lived for 10 minutes after he was shot in the center of his heart – that created reasonable doubt. Remember, the jury is only making their decision based on what is presented in the courtroom. What about hatred? Maybe when Zimmerman decided to follow the suspicious teenage black guy right? That one is going to be a long shot. In order for that to resonate with the jury you would have to know that Zimmerman was the aggressor. Other than the fact that we know Zimmerman undoubtedly followed Martin do we know for sure who the aggressor was based on the facts of the case presented in the courtroom? I personally don’t think the prosecution nor the defense proved beyond a reasonable doubt who the aggressor was although from a logical standpoint and in my heart I feel it was Zimmerman. Unless the jury (not what we think) draws the conclusion that Zimmerman was the aggressor because he followed Martin the ‘hatred’ theory is out of the window. I do believe however the State of Florida did prove manslaughter and I’m not the only one because Angela Corey and her team of prosecutors are now asking Judge Nelson to put manslaughter on the table the eve of closing arguments. Let’s hope Judge Nelson allows the jury to be able to select from manslaughter in addition to 2nd degree murder because if not I believe the chances are very high that George Zimmerman will be acquitted [If there is a 2nd degree murder conviction I’m sure it won’t be an easy one for the jury]. The prosecution team should have utilized their time, tactics, and strategy better for this case to seek a 2nd degree murder conviction as well as allowed John Guy to be more engaged throughout this trial.

    This was anticipated to be the trial of the century and whether unfortunately or disappointingly it was not. This case also had many racial overtones to it prior to June 10, 2013 but during the actual trial a minimal amount existed. I was asked this question throughout the entirety of this case – from start to present day. “If the victim would have been a white or non-black male and the shooter a black male, do you think the sequence of events played out in this tragedy would have been the same?” My answer unfortunately, “No”. My reasoning… Whether you accept it or not in certain circumstances, not all, it is very hard for black American men to be held on an equal platform. However, as a proud black man, I’m an advocate for invoking change and restoration among our race and nation rather than to point the proverbial finger and blame the opposition. To my fellow Americans, “united we stand, divided we fall”.

  161. sadlyyes says:

    while we all are waiting …can we do something for the beautiful planet,and its non human inhabitants?


  162. Judy75201 says:

    I love how Judge Nelson always is so pleasant to the jury, and smiles fondly at them.

  163. Deborah Moore says:

    I meant “seen”, of course.

  164. Deborah Moore says:

    Has anyone see a photo shopped photo of Georgie in his prison garb?
    I’m just doing a little projecting this am.

  165. aussiekay says:

    OOOHHH going to be real huge riots, I can see already. Orlando Sentinel has photo of a grand total of THREE protesters outside the court.