Jury begins first full day of deliberations in Zimmerman case

Saturday, July 13, 2013

Good morning:

A jury of 6 women, 5 of them mothers, deliberated about three hours yesterday before calling it quits for the day. They will resume deliberations at 9 am EDT.

They sent out a note yesterday requesting an exhibit list. That’s a good sign because it shows that they are taking their responsibility seriously and proceeding in an organized manner.

Impossible to say at this point how long deliberations might last. I’m guessing 3 to 5 days.

I provide a link to livestream coverage in case the jury reaches a verdict or sends out a question.


1,047 Responses to Jury begins first full day of deliberations in Zimmerman case

  1. crazy1946 says:

    Good morning world! What a beautiful day in the neighbors hood! Will we see a verdict issued today? Will it satisfy everyone? Will it be a true and just verdict? Will it change the way people live their lives in this nation? So many questions to consider and yet will we truly see answers to all of them, or even most of them?

    • Morning, everyone. Hoodies up!

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Good questions, crazy.

      Yes. When will the waters of decency and compassion flood our land to wash away the hate and racism…..and give drink, fairness, safety and justice to those who have been wronged?

      When will the sunlight of justice shine brightly EVERYWHERE and overcome the hateful, evil darkness?

      It will only come when people of truth and conscience demand it.

      It will only come when people do not have their heads in the sand.

      It will only come when people STAY on the alert to erosive forces that threaten to turn the clock back.

      This case is but one example of that which must be done to stand against those who would turn the clock back and those who would push to allow racism and hate to spread.

      2.3 million people signed a petition to see to it that an injustice would not be swept under the rug.

      People such as us have kept the pressure on.

      There is no magic wand or wish that can create a “presto” moment where all problems go away and only love and goodwill exist.

      No. It is a constant struggle where single victories or accomplishments are achieved one by one through steady determination step by step and inch by inch.

      I am committed to this approach.

      Inch by inch, row by row,
      Gonna make this garden grow.
      Gonna mulch it deep and low.
      Gonna make it fertile ground.

      Inch by inch, row by row.
      Please bless these seeds I sow.
      Pease keep them safe below
      Til the rain comes tumbling down.

      Pullin’ weeds, pickin’ stones,
      We are made of dreams and bones.
      Need a spot to call my own
      Til the time is close at hand.

      Grain for grain, sun and rain
      Find my way in nature’s chain.
      Tune my body and my brain to the music of the land.

      Plant your rows short or long,
      Season them with a prayer and a song.
      Mother earth will keep you strong
      If you give her loving care.

      • ZCBest says:

        love it

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:

          Hi ZCBest!

          I hope you are having a great weekend!

          • ZCBest says:

            I am having a great day. How about you? Just waiting, tick tock tick tock, for the verdict. I feel like my life is on pause until that happens. I know my family feels the same.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            Yes, I am feeling the same way…….but at least now I am getting a lot of things done inside and in the garden.

            I am also putting print outs in a notebook of discussions here that have been an important learning experience for me.

            I learn so much when I just listen to fellow posters sharing their personal experiences. I listen and learn.

      • Deborah Moore says:

        Good Saturday Morning to you, YAHTC,
        I just adore that song, and actually had been singing it to myself during the beginning of the trial.
        The journey towards Justice for all seems to be more of a marathon than a sprint.
        It’s hard to be patient, but this is what we must do.
        And, we must stay cordial with each other. There’s not point to trying to rid this world of evil if we have hate anywhere near us.
        Thanks for posting the song.
        (Did you see that Pete’s wife Toshi passed away on Tuesday, at age 91. So, prayers for Pete.)

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:

          Good afternoon, Deborah!

          Yes, it is hard to be patient, but we must be because as you say this is a marathon, not a sprint.

        • Xena says:

          @Deborah Moore. (applause)

          Caterpillars don’t become butterflies without the struggle.

      • crazy1946 says:

        Beautifully said, I have often wished for the ability to write as you do, however I am limited to only being able to write my simple words as found in my heart! I am concerned that as this trial comes to the end of its journey thru the justice system that people don’t simply go back to their normal lives and wait for the next “major” event to awaken their outrage. While this case has occupied our collective minds for the last year or so, where is the screams about the deaths of 5739 other children whose lives were stolen by violent gun deaths in 2012? Who speaks for those children? Is even one death of a child by violent means acceptable to our collective conscience? Where do we go from here?

        • MedicineBear says:

          THIS CASE speaks for all the lives stolen by violent gun deaths.

          We ALL are Trayvon.
          The good souls on the Jury know this.

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:

          awww……TY, crazy……I have the same feeling you expressed in your first sentence when I read the posts of all the great people here.

      • God is there says:

        @ YAHTC, That was simply beautiful. May the Lord bless and keep you and continue to use you for such a time as this.

      • MedicineBear says:

        Aho! Beautiful.

    • Tee says:

      Good morning, I dont think we will see a verdict until Monday. Will it change the way we live in this nation, I doubt it. This is not the first nor will it be the last time something like this will happen in our great nation. A Hispanic woman was watching the fireworks on a pier in a florida neighborhood on the 4th of july. The neighborhood watch guy walked up to her with his gun out and asked her what was she doing out there. Until the gun laws are changed in this country, until we learn to understand and listen to eachother, and until we heal a past that is filled with so much pain, nothing will change.

      • Judy A Vallejos says:

        I saw that about that lady Tee
        I was floored

        any follow up on it?

        • Tee says:

          I haven’t heard anymore.

          • racerrodig says:

            In NJ that would be a mandatory jail term of 5 or 10 years. Several years ago, a couple was going through a divorce, both being gun owners. It’s just about impossible to get a carry permit. The husband owns a pick up truck and was moving out and could not secure his gun and ammo in separate parts of the truck, that is guns in the trunk ammo in the pass. compartment.

            His soon to be ex – mother in law, a gun owner, saw this, knew the law and called the State Police (a tactical move) and he was stopped, arrested and the mandatory sentence imposed.

            This case is so unjust and is being fought, but the gun laws for those who decide to pull guns out, like Fogen the the fireworks spoiler, need to be done right.

            if you kill somebody, you need pay the penalty, plain & simple.

            One thing I never hear is a story like “….I was being (insert crime here) and I had to shoot to kill…” and it’s all factual and provable. Every one has the same crap like this murder.

      • ay2z says:

        And there was nothing illegal about that? Something is very wrong, because that ‘Neighborhood Watch’ guy wasn’t that, he was neighborhood race watching with a dealdly weapon, a threat to the woman directly, a threat to anyone in that public neighborhood area.

        Anyone doing that was ripe to misinterpret and misunderstand.

        What has been done? Can a person lose their carry permit, or gun ownership permit for this? What influence does or should, the authorizing body, which is neighborhood watch, do proactively to avoid this?

        People, watch out for your neighborhood watch?

        • Tee says:

          This is happening all the time now that the gun laws have change. A white young boy walking his neighborhood was followed by the neighborhood watch woman he had to run home and that fool chased him in her car. He had a dark tan so she assumed he was black , he made it home in tears & his mother called the police, this boy was 16 yrs old. Some of these people are crazy.

          • ladystclaire says:

            @Tee, I read about that incident about a couple of weeks ago. This kidbeas recovering from a injury of some kind. He just wanted to go for a walk to get out of the house, after being in the house so long while recovering from his injury.

            What a shame it is, when some people are deemed to be risky and, must know their place in a country where people boasts about freedom. But, some of those very people, think those freedoms should not apply to all citizens in their country.

            In their sick and twisted mind’s, only people of their race is entitled to all of the freedoms in this country. Even though, people of ALL RACES have fought and died for those very same freedoms.

            I walk where ever I want to and, I will continue to do so. This is GOD’S land and not ours. We are only inhibiting HIS land, as we are passing through HIS world for the allotted time, which HE has given each of us.

        • MedicineBear says:

          This is absolutely a violation of the FL concealed carry laws.

          IIRC, BDLR even covered this when Osterman was on the stand the second time.

          It is a CONCEALED weapon permit — it is ILLEGAL to openly carry or to expose your gun.

          FL is NOT an “open carry” state and does not permit openly carrying a weapon. Exposing a weapon is absolutely illegal.


          BTW, in Florida one must be AT LEAST 21 YEARS OLD to obtain a CCW permit. Did GZ profile YOUNG pBa-lack men by coincidence?

          • racerrodig says:

            “BTW, in Florida one must be AT LEAST 21 YEARS OLD to obtain a CCW permit. Did GZ profile YOUNG pBa-lack men by coincidence?”

            Good point.

      • Girlp says:

        My biggest fear that George’s actions are taken to be legal. That some bigot can do harm to another because of someone’s ethnicity , religion or sexuality. Not everyone should have a gun…George sure didn’t.

        • disappointed says:

          Girlp I agree. I wanted him convicted of Murder2 because I believe that is the appropriate charge, but at this point I will be happy with manslaughter. There is not one doubt in my mind if he walks he will kill again. Fogen needs to lose the right to carry a gun ever. EVER!
          He may have mental health issues. To a point I do blame his parents for not getting him help as a child/young adult. Now he is a man and responsible for his own person. He seen a professional so he knew there were problems YET he chose to carry a gun everywhere except to work. That’s a problem. His family and friends are the lowest of the low. They have all said they believed this to be tragic for both families in the beginning but flip to where Trayvon’s families wanted a thorough investigation and then suddenly Trayvon became a thug. No Fogen is the thug. I would prefer to have 1000 Trayvons as my neighbor than 1 Fogen.
          Every time I see the photo of Trayvon with the Seal of Florida I rub his face and I pray. I pray God gives those women the strength to take 1 mans right to carry a gun that should have never had to begin with.

          • ladystclaire says:

            I also pray, that these women will find it in their heart of hearts, to find him guilty of this crime because he IS. He needs to be removed from a law abiding society. He also needs to know that he is not above the law, no matter who his father is.

      • vickie s. votaw says:

        I heard on msnbc this morning that every state permits people to carry concealed weapons now. I had hoped there were a few that didn’t allow them.

      • towerflower says:

        Tee, If that happened as you said then the NW guy could/should have been arrested. FS790.053 specifically prohibits the open carrying of a weapon. He should have been arrested and lost his CCW.

        A concealed license is just that, the weapon must remain concealed from public view. When/if a person starts to display it for show and/or intimidation they then have violated the law.

        So as I showed above there is a law about this and someone who violates a law doesn’t mean the entire law should be changed for the misuse of a few.

    • cielo62 says:

      CraZY~ Only the Shadow knows!

    • abbyj says:

      Good morning, all. It’s in the hands of the jury now, and I trust that justice is coming.

  2. Malamiyya says:


  3. jodiwankanobi says:

    hi all, hope Trayvon gets justice today.

  4. HeresLookingatYou says:


  5. type1juve says:

    Good morning everyone!

  6. HeresLookingatYou says:

    I pray this jury gets it right..
    There verdict will not only speak to Trayvon…..
    but to so many other children….
    Is it ok for them to be followed ,terrorized , and murdered
    This same tragedy can come calling at any of our back doors..
    I hope the jurors think about that…
    Would it be alright if it was their child.

  7. HeresLookingatYou says:


    • Christopher Charles says:

      fogen was not reasonable in his actions the night of 2/26/12. He wanted to kill Trayvon Martin and he did. We are waiting to see if the jury returns a M2 or Manslaughter conviction. fogen is GUILTY. His lying a## is going to prison.

      • HeresLookingatYou says:

        The killer ..murdered Trayvon when he noticed Trayvon screams
        Were drawing attention.

        He needed to silence the

        And he did.

        • MrSykes says:

          Absolutely. Had he been caught pointing his gun at the screaming unarmed Trayvon, he would have gone up for aggravated assault with a deadly weapon. To save his but, he murdered Trayvon and immediately began to concoct his twisted tale of Trayvon being the aggressor. If that is not ill will and spite I don’t know what is.

          • abbyj says:

            MrSykes, This is exactly how it played out. Every bit of logic points to this scenario. He needed to silence Trayvon quickly to save his own butt. As Guy pointed out yesterday, ill will and hatred poured from GZ from the NEN phone call forward. Every word. Every act. Every movement. Every decision. Now’s GZ’s time to pay up.

          • BillT says:

            i agree except for on the spot story making up…he had scripted his defense long ago and knew exactly what he needed to say, BUT lacked the intelligence to say it in a coherent manner….too stupid to even give his preplanned defense without obvious LIES.

        • dianetrotter says:

          I wish prosecution had said this.

          • racerrodig says:

            I’m sure they know that, but proving it is impossible and bringing it up starts to really muddy things up and borders on “lets pick on Fogen” One of the Federal Investigators I know stated flat out they let the hate crime aspect lay low for that reason.

            It sucks, but most cases both criminal & civil, get decided behind closed doors. i believe the Professor had a blog last year on that.

            I’ll be happy with manslaughter since he’ll spend a long time in prison and I believe he’ll be “Dahmerized” because he can’t get along with people other than shits (Osterman, Taaffe) like he is, and certainly proved he can’t keep his mouth shut.

          • fauxmccoy says:


            the one thing i wish the prosecution had said — they hinted at it, but did not say it directly

            — if you as the jury find that the defendant lied and that you cannot believe his self defense claim, then a crime was committed.

            — once you have determined that a crime had been committed, then the only thing you have left to determine is whether that defendant committed his crime, did he do so with hate in his heart?

            (i think this would have made their choices crystal clear)

        • ladystclaire says:

          He most definitely silenced that kid’s screams, while mocking him. The bastard has now, taken Trayvon’s screams of fear as his own.

          I hope those women play real close attention, to him saying to Serino, “IT DON’T EVEN SOUND LIKE ME.”

  8. Manue says:

    Good morning everyone, even if it’s already 3pm here :)

    • SearchingMind says:

      You must be somewhere in Continental Europe?

    • jodiwankanobi says:

      it’s nearly 11pm here :)

      • Claire says:

        hi are you in Australia? I am. :)

        • jodiwankanobi says:

          hi Claire, yep i’m in Australia….you are probably very tired like me after staying up all night every night watching this trial…i need to sleep for a week!!!! :)

          • Claire says:

            I am absolutely exhausted-emotionally too. Just found this nice community a couple of days ago. Hope you get the good week’s sleep when the verdict comes in!!

            Are you going to stay up later re: jury verdict?

          • jodiwankanobi says:

            i’m trying to, i know the second i close my eyes the verdict will probably come in and i don’t want to miss it! How about you? Glad you found your way here, it’s a great community.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        jodiwankanobi — just curious, but are you the australian woman who used to comment here under the name ‘jo’? just see it as a possibility since i don’t recall hearing from her since you began posting. you both make great comments, i just wanted to clear up any confusion in my mind.

        • hi fauxmccoy, just saw this as i was looking for some info on something…yep that’s me ‘jo’. I started a word press account to comment somewhere else and i had to have more letters in my name or something silly like that. I posted way back that it was me but it probably got lost in the millions of other posts :)

  9. Judy A Vallejos says:

    good morning all

    I was ill with a migraine yesterday morning
    could not watch odumbass and barely able to watch Mr Guy

    I caught the links and wanted to thank everyone

    my husband keeps asking me why they don’t just say he is guilty
    he not aware of the system and how it works so much
    he has become interested in the case because he sees how it has emotionally and physically affected me
    he has asked ALOT of questions

    he believes zimmerass is GUILTY OF MURDER

    It makes me sick to see zimmerass walking in that court room and smiling and laughing…something the tv did not show so much during trial
    I can not wait to see his expression when the jury says GUILTY the look of disbelieve will be priceless

    God is good God is great

    Hoodies Up!!!!!

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Yeah, my husband keeps it at that simple level. He says gz is guilty because gz did more that watch and report…..gz exited his
      his vehicle with a loaded gun and pursued and killed Trayvon.

    • Nellie Nell says:

      Been waiting too long to hear the guilty verdict and to see him cuffed and hauled off to jail to pay for his crime. He had no business shooting that kid in his heart and leaving him to die with no one to help him.

      Anything else is not acceptable.

      • Rachael says:

        Just like he knew about SYG, he also knew about first aid and CPR (it was in the class list for his degree and someone looked it up and he had taken it).

        Not only did not need to shoot Trayvon, the fact that he did not offer assistance (even told someone he had already called) shows that depraved mind. And that depravity never went away. I could have given him the benefit of the doubt until I saw him on Hannity. Now I don’t believe in “God,” per se, but I know a lot of people who do and there was something so godawful about what he said, it immediately struck me to the core, just like a bullet to the heart. I am not sure what is wrong with it, but I know it was a horrible depraved thing to say. I could feel it. In my heart.

        He does not look happy today. Maybe he had no regrets that night on Hannity, but I bet he now regrets having been on Hannity. But maybe not. I think he would still have liked to take the stand if his lawyers would have let him.

        I saw him shaking his head when they were talking about what he did, so I don’t believe he is sorry or admits what he did was wrong; he still feels no remorse, but I do think he is feeling the seriousness of his actions. It may not be much, but maybe it’s a start.

        Maybe some day.

        You see, he’s alive. He can still change.

        Trayvon will always be 17.

        • vickie s. votaw says:

          He also was smiling in court when the Hannity video was ending, the only thing he seems sorry for now is he may be punished.
          My son had a terrible accident that was his fault, a lady was paralyzed from it. I felt so bad for the lady, and she was very brave and compassionate toward my son. My son spent 3 years in prison in Florida & then 10 years on probation. I thought that part of his punishment should have been to help take care of the lady, but that isn’t how things work here. It did turn my son’s life around and he has not hurt anybody since.

          • ladystclaire says:

            Vickie, I’m so sorry to hear that about your son, but I’m glad he turned his life around and is doing well. He had an accident and, what Fogen did he meant to pull that trigger. And for that, he needs to rot in a prison cell.

            That smiling he did, was downright disgusting and I hope the jurors saw that.

          • Rachael says:

            That’s something else I don’t understand, his parents’ actions/reactions. If my son had done this, as a mother, I wouldn’t be able to behave the way mama and papa Z have. I would have to hold that mother and cry with her. They have been nothing but cruel to a mother who lost her child because of theirs.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          @ rachel

          i’m a non believer myself and am still offended at the ‘gods plan’ thing because at it’s most base level, it is an abdication of personal responsibility. considering what the situation was, i find it inexcusable. if i were a believer, i would find it all that and blasphemous.

  10. IMBack says:

    I would love to know,. What will you be doing now that or whenthe case is over?

    • jodiwankanobi says:

      sleep….especially since the trial started i’ve been awake most nights watching as much as i can…then i have to get up to look after my young kids…..

    • Rachael says:

      Well I’ll clean my house, I got plenty of work to do, and maybe I’ll finally finish knitting a blanket for my granddaughter.

      • jodiwankanobi says:

        oh yeah, clean the house, i’ll have to find another excuse not to do that.

        • colin black says:

          she lie trial an the aftermath will kkep u consumed for a while if foggagge is convicted.

          He is sure to do the noble thing

          An take fall for his wifey he treats with tenderness.

          • IMBack says:

            That shouldnt take long huh? She is getting convicted for sure. Just a matter of her sentence.

        • Rachael says:

          I can always find excuses to not clean my house. But my daughter-in-law is pretty upset I don’t have that blanket done. It was supposed to be done when my granddaughter was born. I did the same thing with my first granddaughter and she didn’t get hers until her 1st birthday, but my second granddaughter’s 1st birthday was in February. Ooops.

          I have to get the weeds out of my garden too. Or what is usually my garden. Didn’t even plant one this year.

          • towerflower says:

            I’m in the same boat with you Rachael, I made a baby blanket for my niece’s little girl and need to finish off with the baby’s weight/DOB/etc and have been neglecting it over this case. Need to get it done and visit that new baby.

            Would love to borrow a goat for the weeds in my backyard, lol.

          • Rachael says:

            They do that here – put goats in hard to get at places to weed them.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          i just take my glasses off, then i am legally blind and the house looks just fine!

    • IMBack says:

      I guess I will go back to work…. I have been totally consumed by this case.

    • rnewton32 says:

      My husband and I are ready for baby #2. So this and continuing to raise our family will be our focus. We have been praying to be blessed again and praying for Justice for Trayvon. I think the “right” verdict will make us stronger as a nation. It will make me stronger as a mother and an individual. I will feel more confident in the teachings of my child (or children hopefully!). I want them to love their country and Mother Earth. Even though I have to make them aware that dangers exist, so you can never let down your guard, but they also need to know that it should be a safe place with equal rights and equal justice for all.

      • cielo62 says:

        rnewton~ YES! Your child should have a safe world tolive, love and grow in. This GUILTY verdict will be a step in that direction.

      • IMBack says:

        Im sure you are an excellent parent and you r children will be wonderful ppl

      • ladystclaire says:

        rnewton, good luck to you and your hubby in making baby #2. Babies are gifts from GOD indeed and I hope he will bless you guys with more.

      • colin black says:

        You have a wonerfull birthingday an remember Tray an then we will all stay together in some small way

        On your joy ass day it will be divine

        Weather or not the sun will shine as its divine an allways shines

        We don’t always realise we let small things cloud our minds…

        You an yours will have a wonderfull day when a wee wane comes yer way.

        An may it grow an flourish always cared with love an always cherished.

        An all your life an days to come some will blaze just like the sun an all will be remembered an all will be fun.

        That’s whats kicking right now in your tum.

  11. Nellie Nell says:

    Good Morning fellow Trayvon supporters!

    Hoodies up

  12. My Forehead Tho says:

    Morning all. Somebody asked yesterday if the jury looked at Fogen because if they didn’t it was a sign of a conviction. Well they didn’t:

    • MrSykes says:

      They are definitely taking this deliberation process seriously. The State challenged them to put all the pieces of the puzzle together, and it seems they are going to do just that. They will scour all the evidence including and especially the DNA findings. I trust that a healthy dose of common sense and an eye for detail will help guide them throughout the process.

      • HeresLookingatYou says:

        Speaking of detail..
        The blood flow..
        And the back of the shoes …were not wet like the toes

    • fauxmccoy says:

      to be clear, i am no fan of mark geragos, but the husband did see an interview with him where he referred to HLN as the ‘Hysterical Ladies Network’ … i think he has a point. i tend to avoid tv altogether, but find myself tuned in now, awaiting verdict, but with more peace of mind than i have had in months.

    • ic2fools says:

      @My Forehead, thanks’ girl for posting tweets. Keeps us uptodate I de activated my twitter account.

      The longer the jury is out deliberating the more chances are a guilty conviction. jmho

  13. colin black says:

    36 picks up nix morning an afternoon campers.

  14. I was so busy yesterday that I don’t think I commented on the closing arguments.

    Mark O’Mara’s closing was quite possibly the worst argument that I have ever witnessed. At times he seemed almost incoherent.

    The worst part of it occurred when he showed Trayvon’s death photo to the jury and tipped it so that Sybrina Fulton could see it.

    She left the courtroom

    Deliberate or accidental?

    I don’t believe he had to show the photo to support or illustrate his argument, so I have decided that he did it deliberately with malice aforethought.

    His defining characteristic throughout this case has been to use motions as a vehicle to disclose private information about Trayvon Martin and to falsely accuse Bernie de la Rionda of discovery violations to conceal his failure to exercise due diligence in performing his job.

    I shudder with disgust when I hear his name or the sound of his voice.

    John Guy’s rebuttal was sublime. He blew me away and that is not easy to do.

    • jodiwankanobi says:

      i couldn’t watch o’mara after the first 20 minutes, he said nothing of value in that time and was just babbling about what they would get into but not actually getting into anything. I woke at the precise time to watch Mr. Guy (fate/luck) and i agree he fought for Trayvon beautifully. It’s nearly over.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Beautiful summary!

      I agree completely!

    • My Forehead Tho says:

      O’Mara was terrible. At times I couldn’t tell if he was trying to acquit or secretly convict his client. Though I appreciate the fact that he reminded the jury Trayvon was nothing but a kid, Rachel was still credible, some of Fogen’s story was impossible, and that Fogen had insignificant injuries, i’m sure West and Fogen didn’t, which made me appreciate it even more.

      • gldgirl63 says:

        watching mom….i think he really believes zimmerman is not guilty saying that he was victimized..really(his words) could not follow his argument use your common sense… don’t use your comment sense….if you use your common sense my client is guilty……duh….. how can you not use your common sense…. his story just doesn’t make sense….i thought i could follow the prosceution instead of putting their own story on record….attack his…. i saw nothing wrong with that…which brings in question his self defense theory…..

    • Thank you, Mr. Leatherman, for watching MOM & sharing your expert opinion. I can’t stand to look at him.

      John Guy, however….he’s movie star material.

    • crazy1946 says:

      I suspect the MOM, by showing the “death” photo openly to the parents of Trayvon, did more harm to an already lost case! This could be the very act that tipped the verdict from manslaughter to murder 2! MOM and the Ice Cream Man never hoped to win this case, but simply cause a hung jury or a mistrial! Hopefully they will not succeed……

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      Professor, do you believe the jury recognized what he did? That is pretty sick to me…

    • smokeegyrl says:

      I don’t know what sublime means, need to look in the dictionary for that one but but I I love lime… sounds delicious to me… I have such a great admiration for John Guy. Great words professor. *smiling* I shudder with disgust also for O’M but also with West now that I feel he is okay it is okay for men to follow children in the dark NOW THAT right there is disgusting and scary.

    • boar_d_laze says:

      You’ve got a lot more criminal trial experience than I have. but maybe you haven’t seen as a lot of private criminal defense attorneys doing their job. I have seen much scummier attorneys than Mr. O’Mara and heard far less competent closings.

      Take Mark Geragos… please.

      The biggest problem with Mr. O’Mara’s Closing Argument was that the facts of the case did not corroborate Mr. Zimmerman’s version of the events. A defense attorney’s job is not to tell the truth but to represent his client, and Mr. OMara was stuck with a stinker.

      In terms of presentation, I give the Defense’s closing a “6.” I’d have said “6-1/2” but he misstated the law a couple of times by conflating doubt with reasonable doubt and by implying that “justification” can be triggered at any time without any consideration of the preceding events. However, he never got an objection, so shame on the Prosecution too.

      Other than that he was representing a liar with an impossible story, Mr. O’Mara could have been more organized — but how much of a difference would that have made?

      If you want to find an attorney who did a lousy job of close, look no further than Mr. di la Rionda. The Prosecution’s Summation was non-thematic, disjointed, confusing, and all-around lousy. Disorganized? Oy vey!

      How can you have been a prosecutor so long and not follow the rule of: “Tell them what you’re going to say; Tell them; and Tell them what you told them?”

      How can you not relate the instructions you KNOW are coming to the facts?

      How can you not strike at the central weakness of the Defense’s case by saying, “just because it’s possible, doesn’t mean it’s reasonable” over and over?

      If you want to find a defense attorney to hate, go with Mr. West.

      We can agree that Mr. Guy’s Rebuttal was a 91, was easy to dance to, and had really good lyrics.


    • Boyd says:

      wow he tipped it, you were really watching. He’s a salesman.

    • Susan Moore says:

      I was completely surprised by just how bad the defense’s closing was; too many things to mention them all. But I have 4 points: (1) His discussion of the “reasonable doubt” standard was both wrong and very confusing. To make it worse, he then kept saying he would establish that his client was innocent beyond a reasonable doubt; (2) I thought his approach was repeatedly insulting to the jury, constantly saying he feared that they would get mixed up on the legal standards. What a contrast to the state’s approach of repeatedly showing confidence in the jury to handle their job; (3) I was amazed when he stressed the minutes when whereabouts couldn’t be accounted for; the jury knows TM was on the phone, the only obvious question was what was GZ doing all that time; (4) he kept telling the jury he feared the danger of them “assuming” things and making “assumptions”. He should have picked a synonym instead, because Bernie told the jury to focus on the word “assumptions”. Every time O’Mara said he feared the danger of assumptions, I thought of the assumptions that had made GZ so dangerous.

      • you’re right about the “assumption” comments omar made and I agree the state should’ve continued the opening theme of the cop-wanna-be that made the faulty assumptions about Trayvon that led to his horribly violent senseless murder!

    • racerrodig says:

      I was able to listen to closings yesterday while working on a hot rod. The owner of this car, a former FL resident with a CCW permit and his dad a cop in Deltona FL & I were at times aghast a some of what he said.

      His contradictions are incredible. Near the beginning he said use common sense and later he said don’t use common sense and believe blah, blah, boring blah.

      The concrete slab was a major mistake !! I was hoping he’d drop it on his foot.

      The only thing I believe Guy missed was at the end when he said being followed is a child’s worst nightmare, which is 100% true, but i think he should have waited about 8 or 10 seconds and added it’s a parents worst nightmare hearing their child was killed because they were followed.

      Minor, it is, but I give Bernie & Guy 99.5 and only because it’s an imperfect world.

    • Malisha says:

      I am soooooo glad you felt that way about the arguments, Professor Leatherman, because I did and I was not sure I was really seeing them right. I was worried that my own prejudice, by this point in time, had made a real critique impossible. I am very relieved and thank you for posting that comment. :grin:

    • Sleuth says:

      ~ Professor, I believe it will backfire. Now you know why some of us call him O’Dirty.

      I truly believe he deliberately tilted that picture in the direction of the Fulton/Martin family. He knew exactly what he was doing. Old nasty son of…………shut my mouth.

      Sunny Hostin, who was inside the courtroom almost everyday since the trial began, mentioned something about the jurors holding their heads down, as if not wanting to see it.

      Yes, Mr. Guy was cool. He’s all the ladies, Sunny in particular, saying he from being “McDreamy to McBrilliant. A “Closer”, he is.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      thanks for sharing your perception, fred. i missed o’mara’s statement and from what i’ve heard, i have no incentive to watch.

      i adored BLDR, but i really think it is john guy and rich mantei who have real futures in their profession. guy’s ability to strike a chord with the the jury is obvious. mantei i think had the greatest legal mind of the crew on par with judge nelson. it was clear that the two had enormous respect for each other. i look forward to seeing them both progress as the relative youngsters in the group. i see mantei on the bench himself at some point.

    • ic2fools says:

      Professor it was intentional. Omar keep lookin to his right and when she finally walked out he gave a longer look and then quickly looked back at the jury not focusing or caring the jury had full view of what he did including the scowl on his face as he looked at Sybrina.

      I know the jury is not suppose to allow their feelings of a attorney help in their decision. There isn’t any way the jury is not sensitive to the west and omar. For days now they have seen nothing but utter disrespect of Judge Nelson, the court, witnesses and most of all Trayvons’ parents.

      It will factor in, those attorneys are an extension the defendent his voice representing the defendant. So seeing west and omar represent the case that is the same a looking at fogen speaking himself. one in the same.

  15. MrSykes says:

    Sorry everyone just have to get something off my chest this morning. This case has shaken me to the core. When I was 14, I was suddenly intercepted by a pair of cops on the street on my way to the corner store one evening to pick up a few snacks and toiletries. I was wearing shorts and a black hoodie at the time, nothing out of the ordinary. The cops drew their guns at me, slammed me on the hood of their patrol car, cuffed me and did a full search. After asking them what was wrong, they responded, “Your momma didn’t whip your ass enough that’s what’s wrong boy. Where’s the weed”!? Seeing that I had nothing but a few dollars on me, they eventually let me go. Instead of an apology, they admonished me to “be more cooperative next time.” (apparently I didn’t have my hands up fast enough). I was absolutely mortified and thought I was going to die. Of course, had they shot me dead they could have easily made up a story about me being the aggressor, and most likely I would have been dismissed as just another black thug dead on the street who probably deserved it. As you can probably guess, this case has hit home for me in a very deep way. I go back to my 14 yr old self and am sobered by the fact that my life or freedom could have so easily been taken away on the mere basis of an assumption of guilt. The prosecutor’s rebuttal argument just about brought me to tears, as he drove home the point that, yes, even young black men have feelings. We are human. We feel fear and pain. We have goals, dreams, and aspirations. We love. We just want to live freely without having to perpetually carry the burden of the wayward among us. I could have been Trayvon, but in a keen sense I already am. You never really shake that tinge of apprehension every time a police car trails you, or when you feel you are being watched/followed by security or even by someone who doesn’t think you belong in their neighborhood. It’s tough growing up having to struggle with knowing that some are automatically going to view you as a menace, no matter how much depth and sensitivity you have as a person. Truth be told it hurts, and while some may act out with outward resentment or even violence, most just remain quietly in the shadows, hoping to someday, somehow, end this seemingly unending existential battle in which they find themselves naked, vulnerable, unwilling participants. I pray justice is served in this case, for the sake of the future that Trayvon or his family will never get to experience, as well as all those other young, promising souls whose futures have been mercilessly robbed by senseless violence. That is all.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Yours is a sobering, outstanding post, MrSykes.

      Until EVERY citizen of our country hears, REALLY hears your voice (not just with their ears, but with their hearts) AND those of your brothers and sisters, there will be not be the understanding and conscience to bring about change.

      May your voice be heard LOUDLY.

      (Has anyone ever thought about creating a book with first hand, personal experiences such as yours? I needs to be done and distributed to every library in our nation!)

    • Deborah Moore says:

      I’m so sorry you had to deal with that, Mr. Sykes. When we have an experience that shakes us to our core, it seems the fear never goes away, completely.
      Once, I was driving down a main road in my town and some cops were parked half way in the road, they never pull all the way up to the curb – why is that? – and there were three teenage men being questioned. I pulled over and rolled down my window to ask what was going on. There didn’t appear to be anything suspicious going on. The cops yelled at me to mind my own business and to get back to my driving. I waited a moment and caught the kids’ eyes. They looked at me without any fear, so I took off.
      Hey, I’m a nosy broad sometimes, and I’m sticking to it.
      I will stop and ask Are you okay if I see a problem.
      Again, I’m sorry you had to experience that.

    • jodiwankanobi says:

      hey there, i can’t even begin to imagine what it must be like for you, i can try, but i’ll never be able to feel it like you do every day. This case has opened my eyes to shit i never knew was happening. Things really haven’t changed much have they, it’s the same hatred just shifting and taking different form. I wish it were different.

      • texad says:


        I always enjoy reading your comments because you are learning things about America that is not pretty but you always seem to be open to learning the real truth. Every AA has a story to tell about an unlawful arrests,detention, or murder. It’s a part of Black life in America. There is a lot of unresolved hate and racism in America. And we all have a sense memory of that, because our parents and grandparents bring their experiences into our lives. I think all AA have one moment when we just know our country does not care about us. For me that moment was September 15, 1963-the day 4 little girls were killed as they sat in their church after Sunday school class in a church in Birmingham, Ala. A bomb was thrown in the section where the bomber knew children would be congregated. As a rule I don’t care for tattoos, but I did make one exception: I have a tattoo of 4 roses and the date 9-15-63. And I see it every day. And remember.

        The hate groups seem to be growing:


        And the murders have not ended with Trayvon Martin:


        • You all have thoughtful comments says:


          I know. It is so distressing to know hate groups have grown that militia groups have grown from the @400 to @1200

          Have you heard this moving rendition of “Ballad of Birmingham” sung by Jerry Moore?

          • texad says:

            @ Yahtc

            Don’t know where this reply will appear. lol. Thanks for the clip of the song Ballad of Birmingham. It was moving and I am in tears. The deaths of those 4 little girls touched me so much because I was the age of two of them. And I also spent most of my time in a church that had a lot of Civil Rights activities. There but the grace of God. . . .

        • jodiwankanobi says:

          hi texad, sorry i didn’t see this post earlier. Racism is such a complicated thing and so hard to understand. I’m sure a lot of people don’t even realise when they are being racist…i’ve had to look at myself even sometimes. When my ex husband’s friends didn’t seem to want to know me i wondered why….i’m not racist….but slowly i’ve begun to understand (through research and university subjects) why there may be that mistrust. There are deeply rooted painful things that have occurred in history and clearly still happening in the present. I think everyone needs to stop looking at the surface and have a good look within to start with and then have a real, good, thorough, deep look at why racism still hurts and how it is not something that can be brushed off like crumbs from a BLT. I abhor racism, but it has still taken me a long time to even start to scratch the surface of understanding it, and why even when someone thinks they are not racist they can still be saying and doing things that are painful to others without knowing or understanding it. And i am actively wanting and trying to learn. I imagine it is just easier for others to say “well that’s their problem, i’m not racist so they just need to get over it, THEY’RE racist” etc.

          Anyway i’m sure i’ll be scratching my head over this for many years but hope one day the people who complain that “oh they are using the race card” stop and have a hard look at WHY. It’s not a “race card” it’s history, and it’s there in writing, all the ugly cold hard facts. It’s real, and needs to be understood.

          Thanks for sharing, Texad, i appreciate your posts.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I’m so sorry for your experience and your pain. That should never have happened to you, police profiling and treating innocents like thugs.

      It is difficult to not let my blood boil over situations like this. In order to stop this type of madness we have to rid our own hearts of anger too.

      May all beings be free from suffering.

    • Thank you, MrSykes. The world needs to hear you. We do not get enough of the black male perspective. It’s healthy for us all.

      I’m very sorry about that traumatizing experience from when you were 14.

      I want to hug your 14 yo self & tell him, “You did nothing wrong. You did not deserve that mistreatment. You are a beautiful child of God, and I love you.”

    • Sophia33 says:

      That is the reality for many of us, especially our black males. We need to keep fighting to make it better.

      I’m a black woman and have been stopped and grabbed by the police for no reason.

      • deetruth says:

        Me too – Black woman stopped, detained, questioned for no reason and with no explanation.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Where there are few minorities, the police do the same to poor whites or others they profile as troublemakers. If you drive an older car, you’re subject to unfair scrutiny. If you’re female, you may be subject to unfair scrutiny. If you’re a teen, and so on.

        • cielo62 says:

          I was once pulled over and detained for nearly 45 minutes by the side of the road, and all I had was a rainbow sticker! Yeah, lesbians are SO dangerous…

          • Sophia33 says:


            I know lesbians are leery of us, but I am bisexual. I had horrible incident when I was leaving Boy Town in Chicago with the operator of the train. So I feel you.

          • cielo62 says:

            Sophia- sorry,but I’m already taken. Can’t feel me anymore. ;) I personally have zero problems with people’s sexuality. It’s your road and your options. I would be lying if I said I never wondered what being with a guy would be like. The latest thing I read is that even sexuality is fluid and can change as a person changes. I find that an interesting new theory.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • MedicineBear says:

            Did your wondering about being with a guy have anything to do a MR. GUY mounting a mannequin? (Hell, my husband’s straight and I think he’d be thinking about doing him!)

          • cielo62 says:

            Medicine Bear- LOL! Not really. Guy’ s not my kind of guy. Pierce Brosnan, though… Growl…..

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

          • MedicineBear says:

            Pierce Brosnan — TOTALLY! Two of my favorite movies are *The Thomas Crown Affair* and *Grey Owl*!

          • ic2fools says:

            Well then, my guy(S) would be Lennie James (oh yeah baby), Keenu Reeves, Larry Fishburne and Johnny Depp!

          • Sophia33 says:


            I wasn’t hitting on you, although I am sure that you are an amazing and wonderful person. I was just pointing out that many lesbians get so upset (I think that is the word) with bisexual women. They don’t trust us. That’s all I am saying. LOL! :)

      • vickie s. votaw says:

        When I was young I was stopped a lot , I’m a white hippie, now I’m just an old lady, :)

        • Cops usually don’t stop little old ladies .
          In this state we need a yearly inspection of our cars.
          I drove for 6 months with an expired sticker.
          It’s a long story so I won’t go into detail, but I am grateful to the person who pointed it out to me. Saved me from getting an $85.00 fine

    • Mr. Sykes, this is gut wrenching. You bring home exactly what this all is about. Fear, and distrust of the law that is supposed to protect all citizens. It is still being used to bring bias and hatred against citizens of the greatest nation on this earth. I heart you from the depths of my heart. You have deeply touched me.

    • YQ says:

      Dang man, I 100% agree with you. As AAs, certain things that we can’t shake. Its the skin that we exist in, and not the emotions in our heart. Miss Ali made a perfect point yesterday. It hurts everyday to know that 400 years of history and trying to co exist in the views of the western world. I often question: what did we do to receive the type of treatment that we have gotten. Imagine the first time you ever seen slavery in a history book, or a lynching. And when you looked at the skin and hair of that man and realized that he and you, even though seperated by centuries of change in the US, are connected only through that fact. And then you realize, through extensive evidence, that that hatredbis still there with some some of those folks. The only thing we can really do continue to somehow show them we are just as human as they are. As best as we can. Ultimately this issue of race needs to dealt with, and sometimes law and legislation isn’t the answer.

      • vickie s. votaw says:

        I can’t stand that my race has such a bad history of human rights abuses and thinking of themselves as the only authority on morality

    • Girlp says:

      Nothing to be sorry about this is a serious issue. Black and brown kids are. going through this everyday, profiling is a serious issue.

    • Yorazigo says:

      Thank you for sharing your very moving experience, MrSykes. My heart goes out to you and all of those who have suffered such treatment. I’m so sorry you and others have to experience endure this.

      Sad that among police are those with prejudice and thinking such as GZ, bullying the weak and unprotected. I live in Central Florida, and police shootings (which are claimed to be necessary self-defense) seem to be almost a weekly occurrence. Is it any wonder that irresponsible gun toters would follow suit?

    • KateW says:

      MrSykes, you know I had to wonder why John Guy reversed those roles during his close. He said had said the defense tried to make this case about race, but he said it was not about race. However, the then says had Trayvon been the one to profile, stalk and murder the 28 year old defendant what would their verdict be. Why would he say that? BECAUSE IT IS ABOUT RACE! Black men that kill or harm White individuals are more likely convicted. Had the roles been reversed, the SPD would not have covered for Martin or try to get him out of killing a White person, he would have been arrested immediately, put in jail with no bond and waited there until trial.

      I also think it was not right to add a Black person to the jury pool. What were they trying to say? A Black person could not be fair and balanced in their judgement? Did they assume that all Blacks supported Martin and therefore would automatically render a guilty verdict or have the trial end in a hung jury? That jury was not diverse. That was not a jury of his peers. It is what it is now that the trial is almost over. Although, none of us will ever know exactly what happened that night, the lies that were told to conceal the crime speaks volumes. WHY LIE?! Bernie and John Guy proposed. WHY LIE?! Why exaggerate and make what happened something it was not? Because that is what was in his heart, he knew he was guilty.

      • KateW says:

        I don’t know what’s wrong with me this morning. Let me rewrite this:
        MrSykes, you know I had to wonder why John Guy reversed those roles during his close. He had said the defense tried to make this case about race, but he said it was not about race. However, the then says had Trayvon been the one to profile, stalk and murder the 28 year old defendant what would their verdict be. Why would he say that? BECAUSE IT IS ABOUT RACE! Black men that kill or harm White individuals are more likely convicted. Had the roles been reversed, the SPD would not have covered for Martin or try to get him out of killing a White person, he would have been arrested immediately, put in jail with no bond and waited there until trial.

        I also think it was not right to not add a Black person to the jury pool. What were they trying to say? A Black person could not be fair and balanced in their judgement? Did they assume that all Blacks supported Martin and therefore would automatically render a guilty verdict or have the trial end in a hung jury? That jury was not diverse. That was not a jury of his peers. It is what it is now that the trial is almost over. Although, none of us will ever know exactly what happened that night, the lies that were told to conceal the crime speaks volumes. WHY LIE Bernie and John Guy proposed. WHY LIE?! Why exaggerate and make what happened something it was not? Because that is what was in his heart, he knew he was guilty.

        • Boyd says:

          I agree, I did not hear it, I assumed Guy was referring to race, I hear not…not actually sure what he meant by roles since I did not hear it I guess age, and not race? really?

          Why did he save that for the very end? I think it was rebuttal to MOM trying to get the Jury to visualize Trayvon Martin in Bertalan”s house. Why is her name and house in closing arguments?

          • KateW says:

            Yes, very interesting point. You know this reminds me of that movie A Time to Kill based on the John Grisham novel. At the end of that trial, Mathew Maconaghy(spelling?) says to the jury of the sexual assaulted and beaten Black girl……..CLOSE YOUR EYES AND IMAGINE SHE WAS WHITE!

            This is why I say John Guy is straight out of a John Grisham novel! The guy was superb.

        • cielo62 says:

          That “jury of his peers” refers to the DEFENDANT and NOT the victim. gz got a jury of his peers, all “white” (as he claims).

    • dianetrotter says:

      My cousin told me, in tears, how hurt he feels when people see him coming and they cross the street in fear.

    • Rachael says:

      you said it mrsykes. it isn’t that you cpuld have been trayvon, you wrre trayvon and millions of americans, boys and girls, men and women, have and will be trayvon.

      something has to change. I don’t know if this will change it or not. it is something white americans will never know. they my sympathize and have empathy but I will never fully know what that is like the way my son has. I can only watch it but I cant know it like you and he can.

      im so sorry this happened to you. this is not supposed to happen in america. it is not who I thought we were. but like mr guy said about the courtroom is very different in real life than on tv when you’re the juror, America is very different on the streets than what we are going taught in history class and textbooks. we know how it is supposed to be but we also know it is not even close.

    • gldgirl63 says:

      wow sobering reality……you spoke volumes…..that is why race was thrown in……everyone knows if the shooter was black or hispanic defendant would have been arrested on the spot….offered a plea deal….and have absolutely no bail……and that is the reality of it all……and yet all the talking heads act like they don’t know…..smh…..and lets not….where you live……even if you don’t act like what you are surrounded by…..ppl assume the worst….every time….

    • Nellie Nell says:

      Sorry that you had to go through such an experience as a young kid doing nothing wrong. The image that you can never seem to do away with can be haunting especially knowing what happened to Trayvon.

      It is also sad to say that this type of stuff still goes on until this very day. One day, just one day the color of someones skin will no longer matter to people. Though this country has gotten a lot better, there is still a ways to go.

    • KA says:

      I am a white mother of 7. I have Caucasian and Asian children. I have to saw I have never feared for them walking down the street or playing in the yard. Okay, maybe the Asian girl, but that is not about the police or neighbors opinions or someone instigating a fight.

      I also have a son from Mexico that is 11 1/2. I have a new black son as well that is 11 1/2.

      I am scared to death for them. Stories like your cut me to the core. The thought of them being in danger for being kids scares me in a world where anyone can approach them and harass them at any time and flip the tables of instigation so easily

      This case, your experience, the other black teens that are upcoming in trial like Jordan Davis all give me nightmares that I have never had to have before in being white, and rearing white boys.

      Bless you for your story.

    • Jasmine says:

      I can only say that it breaks my heart what you went through. It hurts me when I see and hear what a Black person has gone through because we are seen as inferior, more apt to commit crime, inherently dangerous, and the most racist people in America. All these things we have to contend with while trying to stay alive. I hope that your pain has eased but I suppose that knowing that others are and will go through the same thing doesn’t help. I will be thinking of you Mr Sykes.

    • Malisha says:

      Wow, MrSykes, I am deeply moved and terribly shaken by your story. Thank you for telling it.

      Today I brought a young friend to his kung fu class and as I watched kids learning punches and kicks I was thinking of Trayvon, alone, shocked, unarmed, without “back-up,” and I realized that any of the scenarios of our lives (and maybe all of them, in some existential way) can be seen in a way that is post-Trayvon. Post-Trayvon is a phenomenon now.

      I thought of a woman being followed by someone who could, might, or might not, be a rapist. He follows slowly in his car. She runs. He reappears on foot. When he is in talking distance, should she ask, “Why are you following me?” Or should she pretend to look very meek and mild but suddenly kick forcefully and follow it up with a fingernails-front jab to his face and then (and only then) scream and run? What if his gun is already drawn when she sees him? Can’t he just kill her and then say she attacked him and was out of her mind, raging and calling him names?

      I thought of ANY Black teen-ager now, if Fogen is not imprisoned for a lengthy term, dealing with ANY stranger he thinks may not be friendly and harmless. Who wants to be dead and unable to tell his tale, as opposed to living on death row with the clemency organizations trying to free him?

      Everything will have to be post-Trayvon now. We are all post-Trayvon now, and not just in sorrow, but also in all our other emotions and expectations.

      Fogen has destroyed a whole universe. He is responsible for substituting another one (the post-Trayvon America) for it.

    • pat deadder says:

      Oh MrSykes I’m so sorry.I’m an old white lady and I’d like to apologize for those sad ignorant excuses for the human race..I wish I knew what to do. I feel so helpless.Can a petition be started to shame the racist pieces of trash..There has to be a peaceful solution.Decent whites need to stand with blacks to end this foolishness forever..There has to be more of us than there is of them isn’t there. .I only pray the women on that jury are not part of the problem.

      • texad says:

        @pat deadder

        I can feel your concern and desire to Do something. Sometimes it is best to just start where you are. I am a AA female who found my voice in the 70’s. I was fortunate enough to have white friends who were very socially conscious. Through our many, many conversations we decided that a good start was to challenge our friends when we saw them in error. Sounds simple, but not as easy as it sounds. When your friends say or do something that’s racist, sexist, homophomic or xenophobic point it out to them. Straight-no chaser. They’ll think you’re kidding at first, but if you stick to your own moral center they might change. That might be the only way to change the hearts and minds of people-one at a time.

    • chi1224 says:

      I am so sorry you went through that, and I am thankful you shared your story. Please know that many white people such as myself despise racism. People like me DEMAND that things change. We raise our children that way too. I do think that things are slowly changing although not as fast as we would like. We have a black president who told the nation if he had a son he would look like Trayvon. People are starting to see bigots for who they are. I just wanted you to know I am sorry for what you went through and I will NEVER tolerate racism in any form. My extended family is bi-racial and I am very proud of them. Hugs to you.

    • Mojo says:

      It’s truly sad that this kind of stuff happens. during the Rodney King trial a friend and I went into his neighborhood liquor store. We live in south Orange County, CA and we don’t have a significant black population. And I suspect most of our black population may be considered Uncle Tom’s by a lot of other black folks. Anyway, this was a liquor store we’d been in numerous times, especially my friend since it was a short walk from his apartment. This particular time was right after the RK verdict. I walked into the store and the guy behind the counter looked up at me with no concern whatsoever. My friend (black man) walked in a few seconds behind me and the clerk’s behavior was totally different than it had ever been before. The clerk watched his every move and actually had his hand under the counter as if he was letting him know “I’m watching you and I’ve got a gun.”

      On another note, when I was in my 20’s I was a singer in a band, hard rocker with long hair, beard and the attire of hard rockers. I was pulled over twice and searched for marijuana. Nothing was ever found and I was let go. Probable cause for pulling me over both times was speeding, yet they didn’t give me speeding tickets either time. I got mouthy with one of the deputies and he threatened to kick the shit out of me and wouldn’t leave a mark on me. I know this is comparatively minor and it doesn’t equate to your experience, but it happens to us occasionally as well.

      My son had a recent similar experience, but I won’t go into.

      I’m so sorry this kind of shit happened to you Sykes

    • ladystclaire says:

      OMG, what a bad country indeed for AA to try living among some who will never accept their presence. Racial hatred will ALWAYS be THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA’S dirty little NOT SO SECRET.

      It’s out there for the rest of the world to see and, this case helped it along.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      thank you, mrsykes for sharing your experience, for which i can only say how sorry i am for anyone who has faced such an abuse of power.

      although i am a white woman who has never experienced such, i have enough minority friends, former roommates and coworkers to have experienced similar situations. it is what jolted me out of the comfort zone i had enjoyed — up until hearing similar stories.

      for me, other than how i perceive these self defense laws beyond dangerous for children and as a mother, i cannot support them.

      there are two experiences in my life which contribute strongly to my passion for what i see as the correct verdict in this cased. the first happened to me at 17 when a relative experience a psychotic episode held me at gun point for an entire night. i did manage to escape come daylight but those 8 hours of fear which cannot be described has never left me. the fact that local LE chose to do nothing resonates just as strongly when i look at SPD’s role.

      the other experience was as an adult, when my husband and cephus johnson (oscar grant’s uncle) were co workers and carpooled together at the time of oscar’s death. we knew that family and got to see first hand the horror that they were thrust into. i would do anything in my power from preventing anyone else from experiencing this and what the martin/fulton family are going through. seeing cephus change from the man we knew to someone filled with indescribable grief and hopelessness that justice would be available made a profound change on all who knew him.

      we are making progress, although slower than anyone would like. the widespread support for the families of oscar and trayvon cross all color lines and just as importantly, socio economic lines. what black communities used to suffer between themselves, is now a global concern. i have to believe it can only improve from here.

      again, thank you for sharing your story.

    • MrSykes says:

      Thank you all for your beautiful words. It’s likely that I don’t know any of you, but I love you all like family.

  16. crazy1946 says:

    Hmmm, did I miss it? I “ass umed” that Judge Nelson would bring the jury into the court room and send them back into deliberations? I suppose that either I missed it or she did not do it?

    • colin black says:

      I also missed no biggie

      jury never glanced at foffaffe


      Like us they no his game

    • She likely brought them into the courtroom to greet them and formally ask her questions. Then she would have ordered them to continue their deliberations.

      Counsel and the defendant are not normally present for the good-morning and have-a-nice-evening sessions.

      Usually, they must be reachable by phone and no more than 20 minutes from the courthouse in case they need to be summoned for a verdict or to answer a question from the jury as happened yesterday wen they asked for an exhibit list.

      • ay2z says:

        Well, one judge already thought that the defendant, with a hidden second passport denied for the first bond, and undeclared and covered by lies, moneys enough supplied by public donations to flee jurisdiction, maybe this judge is being ever cautious and reqested defendant free on bond, be there.

        Who knows what support this defendant might have resourced to flee the two mile coastal limit.

        • Sleuth says:

          ~ ay2z, guuurrrrl, you might be on to something. They way he was repeatedly shaking his head “no”, and carrying on during BDLR’s closing, I wouldn’t put it pass JN insisting he appears with counsel while deliberations are going on.

        • ic2fools says:

          fogen is being watched very closely about now. It would take the IMF Team to help him escape.

          lol, just a funny thought, Mr Cracker and the Cra-Crazies attempting a fogen breakout, I can hear the IMF theme strumming from the outhouse.

    • type1juve says:

      She did bring them back and sent them back to deliberate.

  17. aussiekay says:

    Good morning, all (from 11.25 pm here).

    Are the jurors allowed to discuss this back at their hotel? or do they have to keep quiet and avoid each other, and only deliberate when they get back to the court house?

    I don’t see manslaughter. Don’t want to see manslaughter. People will interpret it as they didn’t think he was guilty but felt sorry for the boy and under pressure for the politics. And not knowing it’s close to the same penalty, give it as a slap on the wrist.

    I don’t want to see that. I want to see straight out Murder 2, so there’s no excuses left for anybody.

    The jurors will be revealed afterwards, and interviewed and offered deals. So I think they’re going to go over every point carefully, to be sure they agree on all of them, even if they already agree on the verdict.

    • Boyd says:

      They can only talk trial in deliberations. Yes, Murder 2 is the most logical.

    • colin black says:

      Evening Kay

      No only in deliberation room
      At hotel an dureing travel ect anytime there not in deliberating room its supposed to be off limits.

      They cant help but think of it Im sure they have every minute almost since this case began.

      Have a great Sunday we might get a VERDICT TODAY 13th.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Not only can they only discuss the case in deliberations, if one must leave to go the BR, they must stop – they all have to be together to discuss the case.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I don’t think most people see manslaughter as a slap on the wrist. It simply means that the killing was not premeditated. It is still a serious crime.

      • colin black says:

        Trayvon was more man than the foggagge clan

        But still a BABY to his Parents.


      • Malisha says:

        Murder-2 does not require premeditation; it requires depravity.
        Manslaughter does not require depravity; it can be accidental, without any ill will or malice or depravity.
        They never went to “premeditation” because it was never Murder-1.

    • Rachael says:

      The judge signed some kind of anonymity things so they won’t be revealed right away.

  18. Quick favor: can someone repost the “Amazing Grace” video? I can’t remember which thread it was in…it was instrumental, mostly flute. I want to look up that artist. Thank you.

    • colin black says:

      sorry no can do

      kop for this

      • LiveByTheGulf says:

        This is a beautiful soulful rendition of Amazing Grace.
        It starts simply with a lone, simple voice of a bagpipe.
        My tears stream down as the bagpipe is joined with other instruments featuring the beauty of the bagpipe.
        It’s like Trayvon or the original lonely anguish of Trayvon’s family – augmented by the voices of Fred’s community and other voices have turned a tragedy into something very special –
        as we wait together for the verdict of “Guilty”.

        Thank you for all the postings, Fred’s blog, and especially the songs. I lost a dear friend on Monday. She’s originally from Jamaica. I saw and admired her strength through her struggles of being a black and a woman. She is known by all as having a special presence when she enters a room. Sonja died of cancer and her funeral is today.

        I have a long history of rarely crying when someone dies. The songs on this blog opened my heart to grieve for Sonja as well as Trayvon and his family.

        Thank you and love to all.
        Jen Lapietro

      • cielo62 says:

        I love bagpipes!

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Here it is:

  19. colin black says:

    Manue a lived In Argelles ville an sur la mer Argelles Plauge every summer working with my Canadians friend an his wife running the camping

    Near Perpingion.

    About 40 k from Port Bauo an Spain.

    • Manue says:

      Colin, I only know Argeles from crossing thru during a trip but the area is beautifull; I live on the west coast at the border of Spain, in the Basque Country (Euskadi in Basque language).

  20. HeresLookingatYou says:

    I feel ya..Well said…

  21. Two sides to a story says:

    Good morning all. Waiting, waiting, waiting for justice on the left coast.

    You might remember that I had problems with my FB biz page – possibly the work of Fogen supporters. I’ve had lots of concentrated, organized, and personalized phishing attacks and attempts to hack my e-mail and sites. FB unpublished the business page attached to my personal account inexplicably yesterday. FB can’t actually be reading or looking at the page because it’s completely benign, though I was accused of posting pornography and sexual solicitation, a classic maneuver to discredit someone. I considered deleting my personal page and leaving FB altogether in protest, but decided I would not be deterred either by Fogen supporters or whatever ridiculous, unsubstantiated nonsense FB is playing by. Instead, I gave FB a little FU Symphony and restored my biz page in a slightly different name and my followers are now resubscribing. But I had to spend many hours changing links and badges on my other sites to accomodate the name change. What hurt even more is that my family isn’t supportive or in the least upset with FB and said it’s all my fault for being publicly involved in supporting Trayvon Martin. Eventually, I came here under a handle, but had spoken out many times on news pages in my own name.

    • aussiekay says:

      Keep a “handle” account for speaking out. You don’t need this kind of trouble. There is nothing wrong with not using your own name, when there are people prepared to cause you real trouble in your real life, just for having a certain view.

      Your views and their value won’t change from being published under a pseudonym. You can fight a better fight against injustices if you don’t have to spend time watching your back all the time.

      • vickie s. votaw says:

        I’m sorry I used my real name, but I don’t know how to change that

        • ic2fools says:

          @vickie just go to the top right click on you name click it will open a page that says My Account. You will see:
          Userame vickie s. votaw edit(will be in blue)
          click edit.

          hope that helps.

    • diary73 says:

      Wow, Two Sides! Did you post to Carole and Michael Green’s page or to the GZLC page when it was up? I never posted on IS, but I was a regular on many of the debate pages. I stopped posting on the Greens’ page when Michael was pulled in and became a drone along with the majority of he followers of that supposedly “objective” page.

    • Claire says:

      Freaking awful. Good on you for speaking out. Arggh they are horrible people who are so threatened. Hope everything is OK now. Your family is wrong.

    • KA says:

      I am having the same issue with friends and family outside my immediate family (I rear justice seekers).

      Everytime I post something about this on my site or post an opinion in this case, I have a jackass friend or family member arguing with me and those “blacks” wanting everything. I had a 20 year dear friend (and my maid of honor) send me a note about how she could not be my friend anymore over my “extremist” views when posting about anti racism efforts in dolls.

      I have lost more friends through these efforts. It hurts, but the end is worth whatever means there is.

      Oh, and these friends and family never believe they are racist, it is just I can’t see”their” racism (ie black population’s).

      It kills me. I had a crazy GZ supporter post the location and address of my (then) kids school and their names. They were in 5th grade.

      I called the police and they told me “you know, people don’t like the Trayvon case and talking about racism, stay off the sites”

      He was white of course, and I live in a white area.

      • Boyd says:

        what? that’s a threat

        • KA says:

          Yes, he came to the house but he blew it off….

          Said “people get upset talking about that Trayvon situation, you should stay away from those internet sites”

          Love those country white sheriff deputies….

          • Malisha says:

            That means “people are violent and many are thugs so give up your First Amendment rights in fear of them.” Our police in this country are part of that very problem.

        • KA says:

          Moreso, he and several other GZ supporters told me my “mouth” put my kids in danger…

          Yes, definitely a threat.

          Fortunately, Michael Skolnik (from global grind) banned all of them and kept in touch. He is a good man.

      • ic2fools says:

        KA I am very sorry to hear you have had so much trouble and that was over the top they did to your and your familys’ personal info.

        This is the time I wish I could make a difference to help you.

  22. Boyd says:

    I’ve heard comments about Guy’s last few statements reversing the color I think it was.

    I asked myself why would he say that. BDLR has won 48/49 capital cases I believe, Guy I’m sure has seen a few. That’s a lot of experience reading Juries. I think they believe they don’t have all the jurors.

    Next, I read somewhere last night daddy Z brought Ice cream for family and was happy.

    Then I thought about the very beginning we had two prosecution side personnel testify for Zimmerman about hiding evidence.
    The Sanford PD helped Zimmerman a lot.
    The Judge would not allow Murder 3, aggravated assault in
    A witness said she heard George screamed at a political rally

    oh Political rally? So are we talking NRA,CCW,SYG politics here.

    if so, they have the means of stocking a jury list with supporters and perhaps Pappa Z knows they got a true supporter on that Jury

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I’ve read that the defense isn’t too happy with who the jury chose as foreman. Can’t recall where or provide a link – I think it was mentioned on TalkLeft who mentioned a particular news report.

      Hopefully anyone on the jury who leaned toward supporting Fogen in a self-defense case has taken the evidence to heart and will follow the jury foreman’s lead. I don’t see how any reasonable person can not hold Fogen accountable for his actions. He’s had 16 months to tell the truth and beg for the mercy of the court!

      • Rachael says:

        Why were they happy with the foreman?

        • Rachael says:

          Sorry, that was sent by voice wreck from my phone. Why was the defense not happy with the chosen jury foreman?

          • Malisha says:

            When the foreman was announced BDLR was visibly delighted.

          • Malisha says:

            I used to do quite a bit of public speaking, and much of it in front of an audience made up of nurses, doctors, medical personnel AND legal personnel and cops, lawyers, social workers and judges. I had a way of looking around at people as I spoke and being able to tell whom I was really reaching. Time after time after time, I’d be proven right. The person I thought I had made the greatest connection with would come up after the presentation and ask me for a private consultation or if I would lead an early morning focus group or something of the sort. In two cases I got lifelong friends by noticing someone who was responding to a presentation to a few hundred people; and that person was the one I thought, “Hah! He really gets it!”

            One such person was a cop in Colorado, attending a Public Health Service conference in Delaware. He asked for a 7:00 a.m. focus group the very next morning, IN the hotel the conference was in. We met with five other people and did more work and got more accomplished than I think has been done in any six months by any half dozen people. I later heard back from him that he had succeeded in a case that he previously felt was hopeless but that amalgamation of minds, over coffee and bagels, had brought up so much data to use.

            Then once I testified in front of the Maryland House of Delegates Judiciary Committee. I was 12th out of 13 speakers and I had three minutes. I ditched my prepared comments right before speaking because my stuff had been covered by others, and used my 3 minutes to respond to something one of the other testifying officials (I was community, not official) had said. SHE WAS A JUDGE. I responded to her comments because I wanted them to understand how little the judge could see of what was happening behind the scenes with children involved in the court system. I could not see all of the legislators facing me because I’m near-sighted. I would make eye contact with those I (a) could see and who (b) appeared to be listening and did not already have their minds made up. I caught the eyes of the delegate who is now the Deputy Governor of Maryland. As I mentioned the US Supreme Court case In Re GAULT, his eyes and mine were locked and he nodded. “AHA!” I thought, “He gets it!” and he led the vote that went MY WAY and defeated the rotten bill. I wrote to him later to congratulate him on the election and he communicated his thanks. But the point was that at that very moment, I could tell absolutely that he got what I was saying, and even that he agreed.

            I will bet that Bernie met eyes with this foreman woman and that he KNOWS that she got it when he was talking.

      • vickie s. votaw says:

        It was mentioned when the jury asked for the list of evidence, someone said defense looked unhappy & Bernie smiled, idk

      • pat deadder says:

        Two sides says I don’t see how any reasonable person can not hold fogan accountable.Well because racists aren’t reasonable and maybe they are worried about repercussions when their names are revealed. I.m worried especially because of fogen’s over confidence and fogen sr’s attitude.Please God give the jury the strength to do the right thing.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        any clues as to who the forewoman is? would love to look at my chart and evaluate.

    • aussiekay says:

      They’d need more than one. A hung jury will only cause a mistrial. And mistrials lead to having another trial.

      The facts are plain enough, a stealth juror would not be able to convince the others. They’d have to give away they’re stealth, to justify their opposition, because how could they justify it on the evidence?

    • colin black says:

      He did no such thing!

      He simply reverseb there roles an to do so foggaggge adamant to tick white in every box

      An Trayvon being a Child of AA Decent of couse the ethnicities would change.

      All Guy did was reverse there roles on the night not there ethnicities

      Others whom see people as not humans but differing breeds do that all in there heads on there own

      Because there RACEIST.

      • Boyd says:

        He reversed something to get a point across, last thing he said why? it was not just another thing to throw on top.

        To me the point was racial I missed it, but I did he what Guy said 1-2 minutes before that the defense injected race into the closing argument. Go back and listen to that portion

      • dianetrotter says:

        I thought it was masterful the way he did it. At first I was a little confused and then I got that “aha” moment. He was appealing to their sense of fairness and suggesting that the right thing would be done in the reverse situation. AND he knows they will do the fair thing in this situation.

        • ay2z says:

          That made me think, it wasn’t a flippant reversal comment, it went a layer deeper than that because you must think, and think about whether it would be more or less racial, the other way around. You had to consider the ‘riding around in a car following with a gun and anger’ and those are not racial components because we have a mixed race male who did just that.

          Those listed components of the scenario exist in both scenarios. What is missing, is not necessary. Race is not a necessary part of either the scenario, nor this case against George Zimmerman, is his point.

          If the jurors add that in, it’s their call, but the state has fought against including itt in evidence.

          It’s a hate crime with out including race.

          (now, the politics and the SPD’s actions early on, that was coloured)

    • Tee says:

      If I understand you right, you are saying that Guy, reversed Trayvon & Fogen’s color? If this is what you are saying that is not true, I saw the entire rebuttal color, race never came up.

      • Tzar says:

        reversed their situation

      • Boyd says:

        I didn’t see it or hear it only based on what I read here. He reversed something. Tzar says situation, and that implies race to me it does. One does not have to come out and say it

        • colin black says:

          ffs all he said was imgin if Tray seventeen year old black CHILD was driving about.

          With a loaded gun an saw foggagge walking home in the RAIN.

          Trey lifts the phone
          Hey I jut spotted a real suus Hispanic dude looking around an stuff.

          And your name

          A..Treyvon Martin

          Q Well what makes him suspicious oh a duhno he be lokin an shining a torch in empty houses hideing in bushes a shit.

          Q. Let me know if he does anything else

          A..Sure thing po po man u gotit Holy molly noe the craker assdud be running.

          Chime Chime Chime

          A…Hollymoly this dude be fast .

          Q. You following him sir .

          A for sure man this crakers running toward my Daddy next Baby Mommas house were my next little bro be chillin.

          Q.We don’t need you to do that sir whats your name.

          A Trayvon Benjim Martin Shit I don’t wanna be givvin out no data homes Im to near my momes an a don know where this niggaasedcraka dude be at.

          Q I thought you said he was hisapnic

          A I did

          Q..Do you want the Officers o meet at youe home sir

          A Hell no am a going on a spick trip an gonnanail me a punkassedsmellyhoe

          Just hae them call me an I will tell them were Imat at just listen for the sound of my chopper rat a tat tat.

          An then less then two minutes afer diddconect we realy do hear foggagge screamin g for an begging for mercy.


          Would be sitting rightnow on a capital murder rap waiting to heal if he would live or die.

          An every single person reading here knows hats the truth.


        • Tzar says:

          No Boyd, I literally meant he reversed the situation
          if Trayvon was the NW and Fogen was just walking home

      • Boyd says:

        Did not Guy say something about race being brought in by the defense during his argument?

      • concernedczen says:

        Yes, it did come up and that is exactly what Mr. Guy did. Watch it again.

    • My fear has always been that a stealth GZ supporter would get on the jury by lying during jury selection and then vote not guilty regardless of the evidence.

      At this time, I have no reason to believe that happened.

      • Deborah Moore says:

        I hope your intuitions are correct.
        Wouldn’t it be a hoot if there was a stealth juror, wanting to swing the vote, who actually is persuaded by the State’s case?
        It’s one thing to sit in your LR and think you Know, and another thing to sit and listen to testimony and see evidence.

      • Tzar says:

        I don’t like to hope
        but boy do I hope you are right

      • concernedczen says:

        I had a feeling that the lizard owning/multiple cat owning person was a stealth diehard GZ supporter…but I hope I’m wrong. I was so shocked that she made it on the jury.

        • ay2z says:

          I don’t specifically know which poster you are talking about, but they will pick up on something of the people here, and emulate that, whether it’s pets, or claiming to come from the same country or have something other in common.

          That way they break into the conversations and hope to be accepted. Then they can switch virtual personas and move along, or not..

        • Sleuth says:

          ~ concernedczen, are you referring to juror B-37, who referred to the non-violent protests as riots, and Trayvon as “a boy of color?

          • cielo62 says:

            Sleuth- there was a time in the late 80s where the term “people of color” was all the rage. It included every non- white hue. I called myself a woman of color, for being Hispanic. I’m not so sure she was being disrespectful when she used that term for Trayvon.

            FROM THE CLUTTERED DESK OF Cielo62

      • sadlyyes says:

        hope you are right

      • looneydoone says:

        Am I the only one here that believes the defense was actively engaged in witness tampering ? Specifically in preparing the animation. That, in addition to knowingly violating the witness sequestration order ?

        Might there be an investigation into that ?

      • Malisha says:


    • colin black says:

      Of course he s happy its a win win win fir teamzimmspin

      foggagge is found guilty get rid of idiot no2 son for ever ..OH JOY…An he doesn’t have to pay stayaway monies.

      An get to go on pity party fund raisers for ever.

      foggagge is aquitted then he get to go every frigginn media outlet an spin win spin win

      A told you so decent Merican bah blah

      An next up on agenda try an get rid of the gender offender idiot no one son?

    • mrsdoubtfire says:

      I thought potential jurors in Florida were randomly picked via the DMV records. I dont see conspiracy here. I think John Guy is just a pragmatic guy aware that racism exists and that even well meaning people can have pre-conceived ideas. . Im so glad he got it in.as well as the fact that TM was a child.

  23. Two sides to a story says:

    Jury begins second day of deliberations

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I just wondered if it’s typical for court to convene like this on the first full day of deliberations. It sounds like this won’t happen again unless there are questions or a verdict.

    • Rachael says:

      Oh poor Georgie. It must be so hard on someone who’s used to immediate gratification to have to wait like this.

    • Michael Stewart says:

      Thanks for posting this morning’s session, TSTES. Did anyone else notice that Mr. Mantei is the only member of the prosecution who never took eyes off the jury ? I assume he’s been appointed to “read the chicken entrails” for the state.

      I believe like others that this jury will be extremely detailed and conscientious in their deliberations. I believe they will follow Mr. Guy’s recommendation to juxtapose fogen’s recorded statements against the known timeline. As a result, they will discover what we already know: after running, Trayvon never returned to circle fogen’s vehicle in a menacing manner, and, 2+ minutes are unaccounted for in fogen’s narrative after the termination of the NEN call. That’s 2+ minutes where the defendant was aggressively pursuing his victim.

      IMO, the only way to reconcile these critical discrepancies is with a verdict of guilty.

      • Yorazigo says:

        O’Mara said at one point (I think it may have been when showing his animation) “that we don’t know what happened during that (unaccounted for) time.”

        If I were on jury I would question why GZ didn’t tell defense attorneys what happened during that couple of minutes. The fact that he didn’t tell them, or that attorneys didn’t reveal it, spells G-U-I-L-T-Y.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        It’s interesting that the prosecution team seemed to look happy.

    • ay2z says:

      Thanks, Tstas. I did not know how this works, bringing the jury in each day for deliberations. Do they do this at each and every break, to give them their instructions before and questions after?

    • KA says:

      I did notice that Mantei was looking intently at the jury, but did not notice much emotion or happiness from the State. Did I miss something?

      GZ looks scared to death though…

  24. HeresLookingatYou says:

    Aww the killer doesn’t’ look happy

    • Deborah Moore says:

      Is it true that the defense didn’t know what the sentence for manslaughter is? How could they Not Know?
      Could that also be why GZ looks so unhappy?

      • aussiekay says:

        You saw how awkward they are around technology. They didn’t know how to Google it ;)

        • Deborah Moore says:

          Ha Ha.
          Seriously, they had to have known, right?
          Isn’t that why West was so furious about adding manslaughter?

          • He had a meltdown about adding a verdict form for felony murder (3rd degree murder) in which the underlying felony would have been Child Abuse.

            The State asked for a manslaughter instruction because the Florida Supreme Court requires trial courts to submit verdict forms for lesser included offenses, even if the defendant wants the jury to be limited to an all-or-nothing choice.

            Judge Nelson at first decided to give the felony murder instruction but changed her mind over the noon hour, apparently because she was concerned that an accusation of death resulting from an act of child abuse would be a new theory of the case that might prejudice the defendant.

            She ended up agreeing with West.

          • Deborah Moore says:

            Thanks, Fred, for the explanation.
            So, the attorneys don’t understand Florida law either?
            Do you have any thoughts on GZ filing an appeal based on incompetency of representation?

          • If he is convicted and the conviction is affirmed on direct appeal, I think he will turn on O’Mara and West and accuse them of providing ineffective assistance of counsel.

            That’s standard operating procedure in death penalty cases where defendants are entitled to counsel at public expense.

            Defendants in other cases are not entitled to counsel at public expense unless they file a petition and the court grants their request for a hearing regarding the allegations of ineffective assistance. We do not see very many pro se petitions (i.e., defendant represents himself) because the defendants do not know how to prepare them.

            Assuming GZ could retain a lawyer to prepare his petition or do it himself, and the court granted his request for a hearing, the court would appoint counsel to represent him at the hearing.

            I believe GZ has lots of good ineffective-assistance issues.

          • Two sides to a story says:

            I felt upset that they removed that. The dang defendant has already prejudiced himself by killing a child. The additional charges only made sense to me, but it not having makes the others stick, then so be it.

      • HeresLookingatYou says:

        I think they knew what the sentence could be for manslaughter but it looked liked West thought if they said they did not want lessers included that was simply it none would be included but not so,the state successfully argued for it .

        • Deborah Moore says:

          Yep, and Yay, Oh yay.
          You’d think the Law student might have looked it up, huh?
          Or, maybe daddyz could have looked it up or asked and let his son know.

        • Tzar says:

          no he did not know
          the judge and Mantei had to correct him
          it gave me quite a chuckle

          • HeresLookingatYou says:

            My bad missed that …

          • Deborah Moore says:

            Law student can’t even hire appropriate representation.
            And, again, He could have looked it up his own self.
            If it wasn’t so seriously sad, it’d be funny.

      • Nellie Nell says:

        Surely MOM knows what the sentence is. He did a sit down interview last night where he said that he had defended many Black clients which is why he is not a racist. There is no doubt that some of those clients were faced with a manslaughter charge, or at least one of them. Perhaps he just did not care about that Black client to pay attention to the sentence that his client got.

        • Malisha says:

          His representation of Black clients probably did not involve him going on TV constantly to slander their victims.

        • ic2fools says:

          Nellie Nell Omar defended Five murder trials each and every one were convicted.

          Omars last murder trial was about 2002

          1,) HELLER, ELIJAH DWAYNE 2nd Degree Murder
          Case No. 2001-CF-014575-B-O
          Confinement (Effective 08/23/2002 at 12:00 AM, Min. 10 Yr 0 Mo 0 Days , Max. 12 Yr 0 Mo 0 Days , Department of Corrections

          2.) MENDENHALL, FREDDIE SR Murder (attempt)
          Case No. 2001-MM-004941-A-O and Case No. 2001-CF-002229-A-O
          Inmate Booking Number: 01200195 no sentence info

          3.) SORIANO, ERNESTO Murder 1st Degree (attempt)\
          Adjudicated Guilty Case No. 2000-CF-014151-A-O
          Confinement (Effective 08/21/2001 at 12:00 AM, Min. , Max. 10 Yr 0 Mo 0 Days , Department of Corrections,

          case #2000-CF-011248-A-O
          there was a trial set 2/12/2001, but a subpoena issued on 5/13/3002 no sentencing, confinment info

          5.) COOK, ROBERT BERNARD Case No. 1998-CF-009530-B-O
          Murder Capital Offense
          Adjudicated Guilty Jury Trial
          Confinement (Effective 08/08/2000 at 12:00 AM, Min. , Max. 5 Yr 6 Mo 9 Days , Department of Corrections

          6.) CROWE, KENNETH PAU Case No. 1997-CF-008611-A-O
          Found Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity
          Omar is working on this case Right Now!

          7.) COX, FREDERICK PETE 2nd Degree Murder
          Case No. 1997-CF-009401-A-O
          Adjudicated Guilty Adjudicated Guilty
          Confinement (Effective 01/17/2003 at 12:00 AM, Min. , Max. 999 Yr 99 Mo 98 Days , Department of Corrections,

          Whew 999 yrs!

          8,) THOMAS, JASON 2nd Degree Murder
          Case No. 1996-CF-011127-B-O
          Adjudicated Guilty Guilty (Admit)
          Confinement (Effective 04/18/1997 at 12:00 AM, Min. , Max. 6 Yr 0 Mo 0 Days , Department of Corrections

          9,) ORTIZ, OSCAR 1st Degree
          Case No. 1994-CF-003751-A-O
          – Adjudicated Guilty Jury Trial
          Confinement (Effective 12/08/1995 at 12:00 AM, Min. 3 Yr 0 Mo 0 Days , Max. 7 Yr 6 Mo 0 Days , Department of Corrections

          The rest of omars’ clients several Prostitues one took up much time Dianne Jewell she was truly a busy worker he spent a lot of time ‘defending’ her.

          He defended child abusers, sexual offenders, battery, theives, drug dealers, forgers, “ASSUALT OF OFFICERS”. more than divorce cases.

          Most of his ‘murder cases’ lasted over two years. arrangement, depo(?), court appearance file for attorney fees, the trial. then wishing his client well while being taken into custody,

          I see why omars closing is bad, never had to to one, I see why he filed friviouls motions lacking proper case law, he never had to before. This tells us him immaturity and why he whines, cries foul and wants other attorneys work product, He don’t know how to work a case.

          I found this information at http://www.myorangeclerk.com, lookup cases click all cases or criminal and traffic cases, it will open a page select attorney. type in o’mara mark do not use his middle name of matthew.

          • ic2fools says:

            correction omar was lead attorney for 9 murder trials

            missed that when i was proofing, apologies ya’ll

  25. aussiekay says:

    OOOHHH going to be real huge riots, I can see already. Orlando Sentinel has photo of a grand total of THREE protesters outside the court.

    • jodiwankanobi says:

      hold on to your hoodies!!!

      • Malisha says:

        Well considering what one unarmed 17-year-old candy-laden thugling did to Fogen, three outside the courtroom means you better call in the national guard. Oh, and a missile defense system. And chemical weapons for all that iced tea. And tanks (considering the plethora of weapons of mass transit [sidewalks] in that area!) :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :!: SHOCK AND HORROR :!:

  26. Deborah Moore says:

    Has anyone see a photo shopped photo of Georgie in his prison garb?
    I’m just doing a little projecting this am.

  27. Deborah Moore says:

    I meant “seen”, of course.

  28. Judy75201 says:

    I love how Judge Nelson always is so pleasant to the jury, and smiles fondly at them.

  29. sadlyyes says:

    while we all are waiting …can we do something for the beautiful planet,and its non human inhabitants?


  30. MrTEN4 says:

    Weighing in on the Florida v. Zimmerman trial… A 10-4 perspective

    It is very unfortunate that Trayvon Martin, a 17 year old young man, lost his life on his way home from a nearby store with only an Arizona tea and Skittles in his possession. My heart goes out to his parents and the family including the loved ones that were directly impacted as well as those that can relate to his situation under like circumstances.

    After I initially heard about this case I gravitated towards the support of Martin rather than George Zimmerman because of the issue that he followed an alleged ‘suspicious’ person (which happened to a black male in hoodie walking in a light rain) that per testimony he described as a “kid” after being instructed by a 911 operator to not do so… and that “kid” ended up being dead. Was it illegal for Zimmerman to follow the teenager? No. Was it stalking? No. Was it a compromise of judgment considering you have police en route (to whom which you have called) to remedy the situation? Yes. There are many speculative questions that we could be asked but the following is one thing we know for sure. If Zimmerman had not followed Martin on the night of February 26, 2012 he would not be dead by the hands of the man on trial today for 2nd degree murder.

    In addition to stating my perspective on this case I want to also address some of the Trayvon Martin supporters who have expressed bias in regard to this tragic incident. I find it stubborn and illogical that some of you have a notion that Martin didn’t strike Zimmerman at all. Here’s why… How many people aside from competent 17 year old males would not have at least tried to fight for their life? If able, you can expect one to do anything possible to preserve their life if they felt it were in imminent danger. After all, the alternative would be for him to just accept a life-ending bullet to the heart while not trying to prevent it. The reason I think these theories come into play is because one assumes that if he may have hit him he would be wrong or unlawful. Not necessarily true.

    I am a conservative Texan who believes in the right for someone to ‘stand their ground’, although I wasn’t raised to think nor believe that ‘standing your ground’ has to include the aid of a gun. Again, there are many different speculative situations we can make about this case but I want to concentrate on what has transpired in the court of law in Florida. My logic and interpretation of the evidence leads me to believe that George Zimmerman was the aggressor during the altercation between him and Trayvon Martin. (This all leads back to him following…) Secondly, to support that claim, I find it very hard to believe that an appointed Neighborhood Watch Coordinator whom has lived in the residential area for more than 3 years would not know the address of where he was located the night of the killing; not to mention that there are only 3 streets in the entire neighborhood (Plus there’s a townhome with the address displayed under a light in clear view where Zimmerman exited his vehicle – 211). Let’s also not forget the fact that he had previously made several emergency and non-emergency phone calls about suspicious activity with no problems of giving an address to police in that appointed position. The alternative… You mean you have an appointed Neighborhood Watch Coordinator who doesn’t know his 3 street neighborhood?? Yea, I’m not buying that one. Sorry.

    We know at some point the two met up and a struggle occurred. Per testimony Zimmerman says Martin approached him in the dark after yelling at him. Now, remember there’s a light rain and it’s poorly lit in the area the two are standing at this point. It is very hard for me to process the fact that Zimmerman, a man that knowingly has a concealed weapon (which he carries virtually all the time -per testimony) would not have pulled it out before Martin was within arm’s reach of him. Keep in mind Zimmerman already believes that Martin is a potential threat to his neighborhood and is acting rather ‘suspiciously’ as he walks in the rain with “his hand in his waistband”. Let’s also not exclude the fact that Zimmerman believes Martin is “on drugs or something”. I can’t speak for all of course but how many concealed handgun owners do you know, with the weapon on their person, that would run into a poorly lit area that you don’t know (remember he doesn’t know the address) chasing a person that you believe is a threat to your neighborhood, acting suspicious with their hand in their waistband, possibly high on drugs without drawing your weapon once the alleged criminal begins to approach you yelling obscenities? Listen, I have some friends that are law enforcement and everyday citizens (many on Facebook) with their concealed-carry permit that would have already took control of the situation at that point by drawing their weapon without allowing this type of threat to endanger them.

    Let’s keep moving forward… My perspective from the evidence presented allows me to draw conclusions that once the two were in a struggle (after Martin punched Zimmerman in the nose and bloodied it – remember this…) both at some point or another were on top of each other. Not hard for me to believe at all and here’s why… Zimmerman, regardless of how “soft” he is, has had extensive training in MMA or Mixed Martial Arts; 3hrs a day, sometimes more than 3 times a week, over a year’s time-span. Even if he wasn’t the best, at some point a natural reaction to his training will eventually kick in – if not immediately. Martin could have just as easily been on top during a portion of the struggle, even if only momentarily. Keep in mind he’s fighting for his life at this point because by now he has seen the gun.

    We know that George Zimmerman sustained injury to the back of his head. That is a fact. The question is how did it happen? Per Zimmerman’s testimony Martin hit his head repeatedly onto the concrete sidewalk in the area they were struggling. Well, I’m going to be quite frank here… The two minor cuts to the back of his head could not logically have occurred by “repeated” hits to the concrete at full force, up until the point he begins to lose consciousness. I’ve witnesses children fall onto their knees on concrete and have worse abrasions. Additionally, no one witnessed Zimmerman in a ‘foggy’ or ‘dazed’ state including EMS, police, and detectives. Remember when I said “remember this”? Well, Zimmerman also claims that Martin was trying to suffocate him by placing his hands over his mouth and nose while he was trying to yell for “Help!”. Oddly enough, none of Zimmerman’s blood was found on Martin’s hands, fingernails, body, or clothing. Why is that important? By Zimmerman’s account the first physical contact between the two was from Trayvon Martin punching, breaking, and bloodying his nose. Now surely, with a broken bleeding nose his (Zimmerman) blood would have got on Martin’s hands when he tried to suffocate him. Naysayer’s say the rain could have washed it away though, but what about the blood from the fingernails? What about blood that would have got onto his clothes? The blood from Martin’s body wasn’t washed away by the rain.

    Pay attention. I want to talk about something that is really rather shocking to me and should be to you too! After the killing of Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman had his weapon confiscated by police as a standard procedure. So, please tell me WHY there were not ANY of Martin’s fingerprints on the gun (he supposedly grabbed the gun –per testimony) or ZIMMERMAN’s!! How in the world would there not be any of Zimmerman’s fingerprints on the gun that he just got done using moments before police arrived on the scene? Has anyone (mainly the State of Florida; Prosecution) even cared to look into this? Even if Zimmerman had worn gloves that night, although we know he didn’t, he would still have his OWN fingerprints on the gun considering it’s his and he carries it on his person virtually all the time! Something about this fact is very wrong and has slipped through the cracks of the prosecution’s case.

    Here’s my theory to this anomaly… Certainly Zimmerman would have his own fingerprints on the gun and if Martin’s prints were on the gun it would be consistent with Zimmerman’s testimony. So again, why were there NO prints? Well, obviously someone wiped them clean. Now the question is who and more importantly why?! The only reason a person would wipe fingerprints off of his weapon in my logical opinion is that so they could also get rid of something else that was incriminating to the case. That something else could be another person’s fingerprints or physical evidence such as blood, hair, or any type of DNA. Did someone else intervene during or after the killing? Did Zimmerman use his own weapon to inflict his own injuries? Who knows for sure but that should have been the prosecution’s job to present a theory as to what caused there not to be any fingerprints at all on the handgun used to kill Trayvon Martin.

    The State of Florida fumbled and they fumbled quite a bit during this trial in my opinion. Here’s why… There are too many unanswered questions in addition to the previous that the prosecution left out. Why didn’t they call Mary Cutcher to the stand? Why didn’t they call other witnesses to the stand to testify that it was Trayvon Martin screaming for help (as noted by the defense attorney Mark O’Mara)? Why didn’t they prep the Medical Examiner, Shiping Bao, or better yet why did they call him to the stand without doing so? Why did they allow Shiping Bao to testify after Sybrina Fulton, Trayvon’s mother? Why didn’t they use a year’s time to select an adequate Sound Analysis Expert? Will we ever know who was screaming for “HELP” or know if Zimmerman uttered the word “coons”?

    This leads me to my final and most important question of them all… Why didn’t they prove ill-will, hatred, or spite as it’s the requirement for 2nd degree murder in Florida? Some may feel undoubtedly that the State of Florida did prove 2nd degree murder but more than likely these are individuals who may not have been paying close attention to this case or too emotionally invested in this case to see the facts presented in the court of law. “F-ing punks!” “These a-holes, they always get away” – these are statements that I believe demonstrate spite considering moments later a 17 year old black male is killed but other than the powerful opening statements of the trial when have we heard the prosecution use these words to prove spite? Occasionally, here and there, but it wasn’t convincing or nearly as powerful as the opening statements. Ill-will? Perhaps when Zimmerman testified that he spread and held Martin’s arms out after he shot him in the heart? Nope. Once Shiping Bao testified he could change his opinion every hour under oath and that Martin could have possibly lived for 10 minutes after he was shot in the center of his heart – that created reasonable doubt. Remember, the jury is only making their decision based on what is presented in the courtroom. What about hatred? Maybe when Zimmerman decided to follow the suspicious teenage black guy right? That one is going to be a long shot. In order for that to resonate with the jury you would have to know that Zimmerman was the aggressor. Other than the fact that we know Zimmerman undoubtedly followed Martin do we know for sure who the aggressor was based on the facts of the case presented in the courtroom? I personally don’t think the prosecution nor the defense proved beyond a reasonable doubt who the aggressor was although from a logical standpoint and in my heart I feel it was Zimmerman. Unless the jury (not what we think) draws the conclusion that Zimmerman was the aggressor because he followed Martin the ‘hatred’ theory is out of the window. I do believe however the State of Florida did prove manslaughter and I’m not the only one because Angela Corey and her team of prosecutors are now asking Judge Nelson to put manslaughter on the table the eve of closing arguments. Let’s hope Judge Nelson allows the jury to be able to select from manslaughter in addition to 2nd degree murder because if not I believe the chances are very high that George Zimmerman will be acquitted [If there is a 2nd degree murder conviction I’m sure it won’t be an easy one for the jury]. The prosecution team should have utilized their time, tactics, and strategy better for this case to seek a 2nd degree murder conviction as well as allowed John Guy to be more engaged throughout this trial.

    This was anticipated to be the trial of the century and whether unfortunately or disappointingly it was not. This case also had many racial overtones to it prior to June 10, 2013 but during the actual trial a minimal amount existed. I was asked this question throughout the entirety of this case – from start to present day. “If the victim would have been a white or non-black male and the shooter a black male, do you think the sequence of events played out in this tragedy would have been the same?” My answer unfortunately, “No”. My reasoning… Whether you accept it or not in certain circumstances, not all, it is very hard for black American men to be held on an equal platform. However, as a proud black man, I’m an advocate for invoking change and restoration among our race and nation rather than to point the proverbial finger and blame the opposition. To my fellow Americans, “united we stand, divided we fall”.

  31. Tee says:

    I know that I will recieve a lot of backlash for what I’m about to say, but I feel it must be said. I don’t care for Fogen or his family & friends one bit, but this is a man’s iife that we are talking and joking about. Yes he is scared, he’s scared to death we shouldn’t derive joy from someone else pain. He’s a liar & a murderer he will recieve his punishment from man or God, maybe both, but he’s a person and we should be more kind in our heart not for the sake of him but because that’s what makes us better than he and the people he know.

    • Judy75201 says:

      Any joy expressed is a fear that the unthinkable might happen, I believe. I’m not sure I can find kindness in my heart for fogen unless he admits what he did and is remorseful.

    • sadlyyes says:

      this man shows no humanity to his fellow beings,HOLLOW point bullets..he wanted to shoot a dog.this man needs to be caged,so he doesnt kill anything,or anybody anymore imo

    • HeresLookingatYou says:

      No backlash..but I doubt he feels pain or anything else. He and his attorneys and the whole clan have been nasty and smug..if he is scared good if he is fearful good he should feel one little bit of what that child suffered and bet this if they set him free he will continue to be smug and arrogant…I’m not making fun but he should be fearful he created this whole situation.guess he should have stayed in car or gone to target.

    • jodiwankanobi says:

      hi Tee, yes it’s easy to forget that this is about someones life. I must admit every time they show him i feel very sad for what he has done to his own life as well as that of his victims. His behavior since he killed Trayvon and that of his family has made it very difficult to sympathize with him. He fucked up badly, but he is still a person and yes, he would be very scared. It is such a sad time for all involved.

    • Deborah Moore says:

      As I said to my husband yesterday, this whole trial is sad.
      I don’t believe that babies are born with evil in their heart. They are taught that.
      Some horrible things must have happened to GZ in his youth.
      Now, that doesn’t give him a license to be a predator, but I hope he gets some help while he’s in prison.

      • One of many ironies in this case is that GZ and his lawyers display an absence of empathy. What distinguishes O’Mara from West and GZ is that he pretends to care about others. That pretension is part of the mask he wears and his face transforms into something dark and creepy when he stops acting.

        I saw it several times yesterday during John Guy’s rebuttal when the camera briefly switched from Guy to O;Mara.

        Sociopaths and narcissists lack the ability to empathize. The less intelligent ones tend to fail a lot. The more intelligent ones, particularly if they are born into wealth and privilege, end up running things.

        I suspect there is some sort of complex relationship between genetics and environment that produce these unfortunate members of our species.

        These days they seem to be everywhere.

        • sadlyyes says:

          so well stated,the functioning ones,become CEOs,Hitlers,bigshots,tyrants,the others kill people and end up in prison hopefully…MOM,is ugly,dyed hair,false teeth and all
          looks like Ichabod Crane

        • Sophia33 says:

          Yeah, that was evident when MOM said with regards to his questioning of Sabrina that sometimes physicians need to cut.

        • Deborah Moore says:

          Can’t say anything but agree with you.
          And, it’s one of the reasons I’ve withdrawn somewhat from society.
          (Give your lovely wife a hug from me, if you would – as if you need a reason to hug her.)

        • MOM does have a scary face…to think he put Tracy on the stand…and intentionally tipped that photo to Sybrina…ugh.

        • Susan Moore says:

          I think this really showed in O’Mara’s closing. I thought he was remarkably tone deaf to how he would sound to the jury.

      • Sleuth says:

        ~ Deborah, I also share your sentiments. I keep thinking about the reports in the media regarding his strict Catholic religious background.

        An altar boy, who it seems, spent quite a bit time at church. Not intending any disrespect to the many wonderful priest around the world, but I can’t help but wonder if he had been harmed in any way by a priest.

    • type1juve says:

      Sorry, but I can’t muster one bit of sympathy for the killer. Had he shown an inkling of remorse I might feel differently. He murdered TM, stole his death screams and he, his family and attorneys went on to lie on him and smear his memory. I try hard not to hate him and his klan. That’s the best I can do.

      • disappointed says:

        I am with you type1juve. I do not really have feelings for Fogen one way or the other. When I think about him I think about the pain he has caused a Mother, Father and siblings. I think about the words coming out of his mouth. I have no regrets, would do nothing different and God’s plan. IMO God’s plan would come with a sincere apology to the family and begging of his God for forgiveness for taking a life. So no I will not give his life any more thought than he gave his victim and victim’s family.

    • changsterdj says:

      All I want is the truth. The dna, forensics, witnesses do not match his story. There’s no way the kid attacked Fogen considering the forensics. He obviously stalked Trayvon. Trayvon ran away from him.

    • Sophia33 says:


      You have a good heart. I think you are a beautiful person to show him more compassion than he and family have shown. However, it is a natural human response to finally see some of that arrogance and coldness finally slip away. And it enraging to see that it had to come to this for it to happen.

      When I first heard about this, I was willing to entertain that this a tragedy or an accident. Not that I didn’t think that Fogen should have to suffer the consequences. But I felt some sympathy for him in the sense that I was only hearing bits and pieces since I was out of the country. I thought that Fogen was an overzealous Barney Fife who made a horrible mistake. I remember thinking how horrible I would feel if I accidentally killed someone. But NO! Fogen showed no concern what so ever for Trayvon or his family. Then the police interviews were released. He was cold. The Hannity Interview. He was cold and said he had no regrets. It was God’s plan. Then his friends and family started talking. First Pappy then Mama. Then Junior started tweeting. The Osterman and Taaffe. At some point, I got to see how cold-hearted these people were.

      They showed no emotion or care or concern for the Martin family. So yes he is scared. But I have no empathy for him because he has done nothing to cause me to feel empathy for him. He is scared and I have enjoyed watching it because up until now he has presented himself as nothing more than a cold-hearted asshole.

      And look what it took for him to finally show some human emotion. It took for his ass be on the line. Up until now, that is the only relief I have gotten from this. I will feel sorry for him once he is convicted. Until then, the only punishment he has received so far is the painstaking time of waiting for a trial (at which point he seemed unfazed) and now waiting for a verdict (the first time he shows emotion).

      So I undertand how you feel. But I am not in a place to be kind to someone who has shown no compassion for any one. I will say, that Osterman, Taaffe, Pappy, Mama and Junior have been huge contributors to Fogen being the most hated man in America. IMO they didn’t help him at all.

    • MedicineBear says:

      Here’s some of the blowback that you ordered . . .

      I have utmost compassion for those who take responsibility for their actions. He has not. He has not only NOT shown remorse, he has condoned continued trashing of his victim. Fogen blames the victim for his own crimes. That is intolerable and we as a civil humane society show what is unacceptable by what we choose to ridicule, shun, and taboo.

      Just as Esa overturned the merchants’ tables in the Holy Temple, we are demonstrating social outrage at unrepentant Murder2. Esa did not NOT [intentional not NOT] shame the merchants because they were human beings.

      What we do is social shaming which forms our social mores. Ridiculing-shaming-making taboo what Zimmerman has done for which he is unrepentant and/or unpunished is defining what we as a tribe condone or excuse (even tacitly by silence) versus what we vocally-actively will not tolerate. Defining our social mores. It’s not just ridiculing a human being, it’s defining what is socially unacceptable for the future us and the future Trayvons. Our human tribe is not served by turning our heads away from bad behavior or corruption by excuses of “he’s a person” or “she did it to keep her job” or “they make a lot of money from it.” We as a global tribe are in the horrible soup we’re in because we turn our heads in silence and excuse inequities, inequalities, corruption, oppression. Trayvon called the CAC a CAC. He and DD called out the unacceptable bad actor for what he was. A CAC. They were right. Don’t make the TERM “CAC” taboo — make BEING a CAC taboo.

      When GZ is brought to Justice for his crimes against our social humane mores and is serving time to pay his debt to society for being a child-murdering CAC, I will be compassionate for ALL the lives destroyed by George Zimmerman — including George Zimmerman’s life.

      This is why I think the jury will step up and give him M2. M2 unequivocally calls out what he did and makes it clear FOR OUR FUTURE that we, as a society, as humane human beings, do NOT condone this behavior (or the enabling laws) by giving a lesser punishment.

      • vickie s. votaw says:


      • cielo62 says:

        Medicine Bear~ WELL SAID!! You articulated very eloquently what I feel. He deserves no compassion UNTIL he shows remorse. Otherwise we do indeed give him a positive emotion for something he won’t even acknowledge.


    • Nellie Nell says:

      Sorry, but it is hard for me to consider him a human being with any feelings at all. In my opinion, if he had any feelings he would not have shot a kid in the heart and then refuse to allow people to aid as well as aid the kid himself. That boy laid face down in that grass and died and no one was there to comfort him, not even his killer and to me that is cold blooded and unworthy of any sympathy. He has never shown any sympathy for Trayvon and that is a hard pill to swallow.

      As I stated in previous posts, I will eventually forgive him for his actions even if he never tells the truth. That is something that I will deal with once he is sentenced.

    • The Truth shall set us free….

      GZ is welcome to honestly disclose what really happened that evening. Until *he* does, he will suffer.

      The irony is that he thinks he’s protecting himself by lying. Eternity is forever….worldly circumstances are not.

      I have forgiveness for GZ. But he has to fix what he broke. That’s what life is all about: doing the next right thing.

      We all make mistakes. If we’re dishonest about them, then they just keep piling up.

      It is GZ’s decision. It’s completely up to him. He can choose fear, or he can choose love. He can choose to lie, or he can choose to be honest. He can be free, or he can be imprisoned.

      But until he is honest with himself, with God, and with his fellow human beings, GZ has blood on his hands. Like Lady MacBeth, he cannot wash the blood off.

    • Malisha says:

      Another thing that makes me better than him and the people supporting him is that I would NOT have killed Trayvon Martin that night or any other night and I have never killed someone, and never expect to kill an innocent person. And another thing that makes me better than him is that if for some reason I DID kill someone, I would be very upset for having done it, VERY!

  32. gbrbsbblogs says:

    Good morning Professor, good morning everyone,

    Hope this post arrives as these days I’m posting on a wing and a prayer, as sometimes it does and sometimes it does not.

    I have seen your reply professor, for which I thank you, and and am will be shortly replying directly to yours via my notifications page as I it is more likely to reach you, I may post it here too to see if we can sort out what exactly is happening.

    • Post acknowledged and received.

      • gbrbsbblogs says:

        Thanks for the acknowledgment Professor.

        I have just sent you a post in reply to your reply yesterday which I am going to repeat here so as to ensure you will get it. I am really truly sorry to have been such a problem with all of this, and I do so hope we can sort it out because I really appreciate your blog.

        REPEAT POST should the first one not arrive

        Thank you professor for coming back to me and sorry my reply is a tad tardy.

        Professor, I can assure you that since Monday 8th July, that is the first day I discovered I could not post on your blog (iirc, I didn’t post at the weekend so I can’t tell if working, but it was certainly working Friday 7th), until your reply on July 12th at 12:23 am, to my comment of the same day at 12:09 am, I had received no communication from you. Nor have I received a reply to my reply back to you also on July 12th at 4:02 am. (LINK TO THE THREE COMMENTS I HAVE REFFERED TO) And many fellow bloggers I have got to know and become very fond of, willis, amsterdam, Xena, faux, Cielo, Tzar, etc. because I know there were more and I ask their forgiveness if I have omitted their names, also posted you on several occasions trying to draw attention to my plight, all to no avail and none have told me you had replied to them either.

        As you can see, my first words to you in my reply were:

        Ahhhh, professor! Am I glad to see your fonts!

        Firstly, please don’t think with this reply I can post normally. I rarely can post on the actual blog. I can sometimes do so in reply to another from the notifications page, and now I have this new ID I can sometimes post via email, but no system always works.

        Also in my reply I referred you to a reply I made to aussie in which I described what was happening as I thought it would be better for you rather than adding another long comment on a page already taking time to load.

        No professor, sadly for me the problem has not resolved, so I am unable to post normally on your blog whether with my old ID or the present one. I am sure it has something to do with WP admin and or akisment spam guard, because at the same time it happened on your blog I had exactly the same problem at whonoze’s and Xena’s blogs too. Both whonoze and Xena fixed the problem, so I am back posting on their blogs perfectly and normally, but not on yours, which is very sad for me. If it helps, Xena had to fish me out of her spam, but whonoze must have done something else, because at first instance he told me I wasn’t in his spam but on his admin page and even showing as approved, but whatever he did after telling me that, it worked because I am able to post on his blog normally with either my old ID or the new one.

        In case you want more specifics of what exactly is happening, with neither my old or new ID can I post directly on the page as I am accustomed to, whether by starting a new thread from the bottom of the page, or replying to another poster’s comment, (that said, very occasionally I have been able to post directly on the page for a few hours early in the morning). MY OLD ID: I can reply to posters who have replied to me but only via the notifications bar, NEVER from the blog page. MY NEW ID: As I set it up with a dedicated email and opted to receive email of all posts there, I am able to post as new or reply by email but it is impossible to find the specific posts that I want to reply to, so I have given up and only post as a new thread at the bottom of the page or not at all.

        I do hope this helps, and please reply with anything I can do. I googled to find out what it could be and got results so I am sure there must be a solution and whonoze and Xena are proof of that, so I really hope we can sort it, because although this trial is now at an end, there may be another or another matter altogether, and I have so much enjoyed being a part of your blog, sharing with others a search for justice, and I would not like to miss being able to do so in the future.

        I must ask RVSP because otherwise I have no way of knowing you have actually read this

          • gbrbsbblogs says:

            Thank you so much professor.

            Maybe when whonoze next comments we could ask him what he did to allow me to post again on his WordPress site.

            I did contact WP support, and can do so again, but they advised it was probably due to Akisment’s recent tightening of the criteria which was flagging me as spam, and that I should contact the site owner who by approving my comments would make fine again. However, whonoze didn’t find me in his spam at all, rather he found my posts perfectly normally on his admin page and they showed as being approved too even though they were not figuring on the blog page.

            When suddenly I found I was able to post on his site (I kept trying on and off here and there) I posted him and asked what he had done to make it work but he never replied so I can try again, but I think he is not always attentive to his site from what I have heard but he just may be more attentive to you.

          • gbrbsbblogs says:

            Oh, I forgot to say, if if helps, my internet provider told me I have a DYNAMIC IP address not a static one so it changes every time I connect to the internet which I am told is the most often used here in the UK as it protects against hacking. On the other hand, as I have told you I am able to post at both Xena’s and whonoze’s WordPress blogs, so can’t see that is the problem otherwise they would not have been able to get me back posting on their blogs.

            Thnx again, Professor.

          • gbrbsbblogs says:

            Sorry forgot to also explain, I am unable to post on the blog page with my new ID either, therefore with neither ID am I able to post directly on the page by clicking either “reply” to a poster or “Leave a reply” at the end of the page. When I click “Reply” or in it’s case “Leave a reply” the typical “Posting comment” appears and it shows as working, but once done and the page refreshed the comment is not there.

          • I am absolutely baffled.

          • gbrbsbblogs says:

            Join the club!

            I have to go now, but later or tomorrow I’ll post whonoze again to see if he can tell me what he did that got me posting on his blog again. Perhaps toggling an approval on and off, or maybe there is a setting or something that was changed or that you can change, who knows!

            If you are a paying WP subscriber they may have a better support than the blogosphere one, but I will try again, however as I don’t really know what is happening on your side it is hard for me to say exactly what is happening on your side.

            Please keep hope a bit longer as “somewhere in all this shit there must be a pony”. I’ll be back!

          • gbrbsbblogs says:

            Sorry professor, I have been snowed under these days so I have been unable to get back to you yet about what is happening and to try to find a solution.

            I have posted whonoze today to ask what he did but no so I am waiting for that but no reply as yet. I will be back during the week when I have more time.

          • This comment came through without a problem.

          • gbrbsbblogs says:

            Yes professor, but that is the point, I can only post in reply to a poster who has replied to me at some point and are still listed on my WP “notifications” page but the comments I am replying to are old which you will see if you check the date and your post to which it belongs, “Jury begins first full day of deliberations in Zimmerman case”.

            The problem is I am UNABLE to post from the blog page at all whether as a new comment using the “Leave a reply” box at the bottom of the blog page, or using the “Reply” button to reply to another poster’s comment.

            To show you how this works, I have just posted a test reply on your current post to your comment #205008:

            Frederick Leatherman says:
            July 15, 2013 at 12:25 pm
            I’d love to meet LLMPapa and talk about this case or anything else.

            I’m a big fan of his work.

            After writing my text in the reply box, I clicked “post comment”. The “Posting comment” advice window came up and the whirligig, or whatever it’s called, went round and round, but once it came to rest and the page had refreshed, my comment was not present. I am sure if you check your admin page you will find it there, or if not your Spam.

          • gbrbsbblogs says:

            Professor, did you get my two last messages sent today, as follows:

            A. Posted directly on the page of your current post (“What went wrong with the Zimmerman Case”), which did not publish, (it was in reply to a comment you posted there dated July 15, 2013 at 12:25 pm about LLMPapa)

            2. A reply to this reply of yours which has published as July 15, 2013 at 8:00 pm on your post “Jury begins first day of deliberations in Zimmerman trial”

          • gbrbsbblogs says:

            Professor, you are unfortunately missing my point…

            I can ONLY post if I am replying to another blogger’s reply to me and ONLY from the page called “notifications” where WP archives replies other posters have made to my comments.

            I CANNOT post on your blog itself, NOT as a new comment NOR in reply to another’s post. Comments I post directly on the page are showing in your admin as approved but they are not posting on the actual page. The same was happening with my comments at whonoze’s blog but he fixed it.

            The fact is I can post normally on both Xena’s and Whonoze’s blog but NOT on your blog, so it has to be a setting of some sort at your end.

  33. Tzar says:

    To be chased not knowing why you are being chased
    To be terrorized without knowing why
    To be killed not knowing why you are being killed


    the boy never got an answer.

    “HELP ME”

    All his requests were ignored
    some were mocked
    He died alone on the cold wet grass

    The shear terror of it all.

    • KateW says:

      Yeah that gun was already out. Trayvon Martin probably had his hand on the guy’s arm trying to keep him from aiming it at him, that is when the killer did his “WRIST MOVE” and got Martin’s left arm out of the way and was able to lift his right arm and aim it into his chest.

      Why lie? Because that is what was in his heart…..he knew he was guilty in what he did. He wanted to kill Trayvon Martin.

      • smokeegyrl says:

        Yeah, I watched on Piers Morgan last night… and just as I have said for a year and now everyone gets it… they all believe that Fogen had his gun out already. He never had it holstered when he was following and searching for the *suspect*.

        • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

          GZ did.. That’s why that boy scream… HELP ME! HELP ME! and when he wouldn’t stop screaming to get attention GZ “Grand Wizard of the KKK” son shot him.

        • KateW says:

          Yes smokeegyrl. I didn’t come to that conclusion until I heard about the wrist move during the trial and when Bernie or John Guy had said John Goode said he saw hand’s going up or down but what John Goode didn’t say was that he saw the killer’s hands. So where was his hands? And that is when it clicked for me. Very sad moment and that is when you know it was the boy screaming for someone to help him.

          • Boyd says:

            yeah probably, mix truth in with half-truths and outright lies.

            “I was reaching for my cell phone” “he must have seen my gun when my jacket lifted up”

            no, you probably were reaching for your gun

      • mrsdoubtfire says:

        Zimmerman started to lie from the second cops arrived.when he realised the importance of TM’s screams and stole them as his own. Am I bleeding e asked Joathan Manalo, not “Help me restrain this guy” He arrived at that re-enactment after spending hours with Air Marshal pal Osterman. Now we get the phony and embellished version of circling the car. He totally omits chasing TM immediately after saying “Shit he’s running” He removes any notion that he ever made TM afraid or that he pursued him. Just count the lies told on that re-enactment tape…..and Sandord PD said they had no probably cause.

        • Nellie Nell says:

          Everything that you say is so very true. His lack of sympathy is incredibly disturbing. He took an oath at the bond hearing and lied by saying he did not know how old Trayvon was and thought that he was a few years younger than his 28 years all the while knowing that the kid he was chasing at the time was a teen.

          When he told Trayvon’s parents that he was sorry that they had to bury their son was a big slap in the face. They would not have had to bury their child if you had not harassed, chased and then killed him.

          GZ is vile.

      • aussie says:

        He wasn’t seeing a human being at any stage in this process. That’s why he feels he’s not guilty.

        He wasn’t killing an unarmed teenager. He was killing a WITNESS.

        He set out to make a big capture of a criminal who’s been making trouble in the area for months. When he found out he’d made a mistake, his whole life-as-he-knew-it was going to be over — no glory, no police or judge job, no adulation, just everyone laughing at him, because he’d unlawfully detained someone innocent.

        One well-aimed bullet was going to change that completely. Was going to grab victory from the jaws of defeat. Turn the shame and failure of the mistaken identity into becoming a HERO for surviving the attack.

        Nothing personal. Just tidying up loose ends.

    • sadlyyes says:

      yes i believe the Hebrews say the name is to be forgotten,but after the Holocaust the phrase..NEVER FORGET was spoken

      • Malisha says:

        Forget the NAME of the evil-doer.
        Never forget to resist evil.
        And “Never Again” was what I heard most often.

    • diary73 says:

      This case brings out the poet in many of us. Thanks Tzar.

    • MedicineBear says:

      I pray the Jury responds to his last pleas for help.

  34. MDH says:

    One of the flawed arguments presented by the right and their enablers in the so-called progressive movement is the arrest rate for black males.


    In statistics, there is selection and self confirmation bias.

    For example, if 1/10 of both X and Y are rapists, but I select Y five time more than X for an absolute confirmation, then there will be five times more of Y in jail for rape.

    Why do I bring this up?

    In NYC, the police stop and frisk people of color about five times more frequently than a white person, yet the white people stopped have a higher rate in absolute terms of having contraband.

    Whatever happened to the concept that the guilty slip past to that the innocent don’t suffer.

    OH MY, OH MY the supporter of GZ in progressive community ring that bell loud and clear, yet when the 99% of black males who suffer the indignity of being searched or confronted is brought up, they waffle with some sort of argument that the black community needs to take care of itself – I lurk on Daily Kos {maybe they should be renamed Daily Coward}

    Take care of itself?

    How racist is that?

    If one does not believe in race, then they know that we all belong to the community of man.

    And John Dunne said it best:

    No man is an island,
    Entire of itself,
    Every man is a piece of the continent,
    A part of the main.
    If a clod be washed away by the sea,
    Europe is the less.
    As well as if a promontory were.
    As well as if a manor of thy friend’s
    Or of thine own were:
    Any man’s death diminishes me,
    Because I am involved in mankind,
    And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
    It tolls for thee

    • sadlyyes says:

      the PRISON INDUSTRY in this country is one of the most profitable for WALL STREET…they will keep those prisons full to make investors rich,you can doodle it…we incarcerate more peeps than China with a billion people

      • MDH says:

        And the media foments “divide and conquer” to keep the prisons packed with fresh souls.

      • aussie says:

        In some States it’s very profitable for companies owned by the Governor…………they’re not likely to make laws that reduce prison populations, are they?

        Private for-profit prisons should be outlawed, for starters.

      • Exactly! For Profit Prisons are unethical!!

        I have felt strongly about prison reform for a while….gun violence, too.

        I’m close to somebody with a mental illness….she has no family, and struggles a lot. But ya know what? She has a beautiful heart & soul…despite her mental illness.

        She is high-functioning, but found herself in a desperate situation years ago and got in trouble with the law.

        They screw her over every chance they get. It’s horrible.

        The right meds for her cost, with insurance, $500 a month. She gets cheap meds from Wal Mart, but they have horrible side effects which discourages her from staying on them.

        This country is so upside down….we incarcerate the mentally ill, deprive them of their meds, and offer no rehabilitation.

    • changsterdj says:

      It depends

      if its a serial killer, or pedophile, cops usually look for white males

      Thats how some cops think

      • aussie says:

        AFTER the crime’s been committed.

        They don’t go searching the houses of random white males to see if they have bodies buried in the basement.

        • MDH says:

          When I was a child growing up in Detroit. Our two neighbors were Detroit Police officers. During the 1967 riot, his son used to tell us that “daddy was out shootin’ co.ns”. They had come up from somewhere in Florida. Soon after the riot was over, they moved back because, in the fathers words, Detroit was no longer going to keep “those people” {note I am not going to use the actual vulgar word he spoke}. One thing I noted from those days is the way they said coons. It kind of rhymed with cones.

          So my guess is that the hoodie with the pointed hat is in their closet.

          The other police officer was a hard core John Bircher.

          I must be weird for a white person. I felt my part of Detroit became a better place to live when black people started moving in and all that hate and paranoia left.

          • I guess I’m weird as a white person, too. My mom was an intellectual feminist. We had lots of AA friends…my tennis doubles partner, for example. We were invited to service to several black churches when I was a kid. Mom and I shared a deep love for Maya Angelou & Alice Walker…

            The first racist joke I ever heard was in college. It broke my heart.

            I have never used the “n” word in my life.

            I don’t understand racism…fortunately, it is not in my blood. But…I’m vigilante of any kind of subconscious racism. One cannot rest on one’s laurels. If I grew up in a racist society, I can’t just assume I’m not racist….know what I mean….? I want to always be teachable…and learn more.

        • MedicineBear says:

          Oh, tou-effing-che’!

    • Claire says:

      Racism exists and affects the material conditions and lives of non-white people regardless of whether one wants to believe that race doesn’t exist. A colourblind approach is fruitless. And in light of my slave heritage and the intense anti-Black racism i and many other Black people face-and I have tried to deny my Blackness-I am proud to be who I am and to be associated with Blackness and with other Black people. This is a big part of why I want justice for Trayvon.

      • Yes.

        And racism also hurts racists….just look at how ugly Papa Z is. I don’t say that to be mean. But they don’t realize the cancer in their souls. They have no idea how much pain and guilt they cause themselves.

        They are missing out….

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I absolutely loathe the argument that Fogen’s crime is insignificant simply because black on black crime is high or that our jails are filled with brown people. I do not understand the ignorance – all it takes is a bit of investigating to see why this is so.

  35. Deborah Moore says:

    Georgie Porgy
    Puddin’ and Pie
    Kissed the girls
    And made them cry
    When the boys
    came out to play
    George Porgy
    ran away.

  36. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    If you look at the make-up of Zimmerman’s family the father looks like the Grand Wizard of the KKK. It is so obvious this family and associates are racist. Let’s see if this jury sends a message to people like this.

    You will not stalk children walking with Ice Tea and a bag of Skittles.

    • Michael Stewart says:

      Every time I see Zimmerman senior, I hear banjo music. Grown-up, that kid from “Deliverance” could be his twin brother.

      • MDH says:

        The connection to Deliverance is telling a story that is based on lies and having it fall apart based on common sense.


        Q: How can a canoe go upriver?

        A: I don’t know.

        Q: How come Drew wasn’t wearing his life jacket?

        A: I don’t know

        GZ trial:

        How does blood defy gravity?

        A: Don’t know

        How does GZ’s blood get washed away from T, but not GZ?

        A: Don’t know.

        Another connection is that law enforcement seemed to know the truth, but had an interest to just let sleeping dogs lie {Y’all can take my use of lie for a pun}.

    • aussie says:

      C’mon guys, you can’t say what someone is by looking at him., That’s what started this whole mess, remember?

      • Michael Stewart says:

        My comment (dripping with sarcasm) was made specific to Senior’s physical appearance, unrelated to whatever racial politics he may or may not endorse.

        As a former magistrate, he could be a fair minded champion of civil rights for all I know; but if some of his pubic statements are any indication, I kinda doubt that he is.

      • Rachael says:

        Agreed aussie. Thank you.

      • HeresLookingatYou says:

        Is this not the guy that just did an ebook and every black person and organization he could think he called racists…..I don’t care what he looks like but there is no question of how he acts…

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Are you old enough to remember Howdy Doody? Fogen Sr. looks like an aging Howdy Doody to me.

  37. KateW says:

    Besides this murder, what really bothers me is the SPD attempt to assist this guy in covering up the murder of a Black person. They knew he was lying to them and during the interviews were skeptical of his narrative. But then they began leading his and helping to craft his story. This is unacceptable! If the law is allowed to be biased and assist criminals, I don’t care what color they are, in concealing a crime then this is disturbing and very very troubling! I understand we are human with emotions and feelings; however, the law and their enforcers are supposed to be the equalizers seeking justice for victims and not assisting criminals to assail victims of crime.

    • Claire says:

      Yep…I sorta agree.

      I strongly agree that the institution of the Sanford Police Dept. worked against justice for Trayvon.

      Serino wanted to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter but the people above him, including Lee, said no.
      In terms of the interview with Zimmerman, I heard the deep skepticism and the leading questions. I also heard BS where Serino assumed Zimmerman would have trauma, Singleton justifying Zimmerman’s actions by talking about how God would be OK if Zimmerman shot in self-defence, and Serino indirectly alluding to anti-Black stereotypes – ‘oh this one has a family who cares and is asking questions, I want to prepare you for that’…as if Black families do not care about our kids. Serino and Singleton especially, performed absolutely abysmally and unethically in court.

      Yep this is where white supremacy as a system, not talking about KKK, comes in – in terms of assisting criminals, in the very clear way you put it.

      • aussie says:

        You have to allow for good cop/bad cop methods, to keep the person talking instead of clamming up. A lot of what they said, Serino in particular, is to keep GZ talking and thinking he’s in the clear and then talk some more.

        But there is an old boys’ club kind of atmosphere there, and a wannabe like GZ is an almost-member, They may think he’s a bit of a nuisance or laugh behind his back, but when push comes to shove, he counts as one of them rather than as one of “them” the outsiders or not-quite-humans.

        And this is before anyone’s fathers start calling in old favours….

        • KateW says:

          There is a difference with allow the suspect to speak and then speaking for him. For example the state he made “That is you screaming for help.” When playing the 911 tape or allow the suspect to stop and correct himself when initially (tape #3) when the killer says it was Trayvon screaming for help. You ask questions. You let them talk. However, you don’t make statements for them(leading) or interrupt them when they make an “error” in their statement. Maybe you ask the question again, but you don’t stop them when you hear a problem with their story and allow them the opportunity to catch what they had said.

    • Black progression against racial bias hasn’t ended, they’ve simply moved up to the next barricade. This time its dealing with people who deny racism even exists even if that means covering up the murder of a black child. So not only is the SPD in on it, so is Frank Taffe, GZ’s entire family, Jenna Lauer(I think that’s the witness that pissed me off), as well as the media giants who refuse to explain something simple as a bullet hole underneath the button on TM’s hoodie.

      Honestly people, 46 calls on black people standing around including a 7 to 9yr old kid accusing him of being a thief? A cousin who confirms GZ’s entire family hates black people? Hatefully racist tweets by jr that castigate the entire race? Sr writes a book that says black people are the real racist? A suspected tweet by Frank Taffe that calls mary Cutcher a N-word lover? And yet we have to endure the argument that race has nothing to do with this case.

      • Claire says:

        Yep! Do you know why Cutcher didn’t testify?

        • Puck says:

          She did a bunch of TV interviews, so that would have come up in cross-examination to impugn her credibility or her reasons for being a witness, I guess.

          • Claire says:

            Yeah thought so RE: her interviews….really sucks. She was so adamant in her interviews…argh! TY.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Sounds like a racist to me. In fact, Fogen sounds like a racist who, as his cousin explained, likes blacks only when they behave like whites and speak the queen’s English. The black intern on the defense team doesn’t seem to grasp this concept because she’s highly educated, passes snuff in the racist white world.

    • Sabrina B. says:

      Totally agree. If there is no consequence for their actions in this matter, what will stop them from doing so again and again, and actually being more careful next time. That was truly heinous. That man should not have been allowed to walk our of that interview room with all of those lies. At the very least, the decision should have been made by investigators to CYA in case this backfires, tox screens on fogen, DNA testing of fogen’s hands, mandatory ER evaluation, especially based on the claim. And never simply allow him to go wash up in the bathroom. Especially since, like Serino said, they did not know what might or might not have been caught on the cellphone. Completely inept department even in the cover ups.

      • KateW says:

        Leroy I concur. Sabrina good point! They also assisted him by not performing a thorough and full investigation. I forgot about the tox screen. They did not impound his vehicle either as that is part of the crime scene. He could have had drugs in his car, other weapons or information pertaining to the crime like motive or other pertinent evidence.

        • When It comes to the tox screen, I can’t even call them incompetent. If you get in a car accident and someone gets hurt, tox screen, hurt on the job, tox screen, weaving in traffic, tox screen, beat up your girlfriend, tox screen, kill a black kid, uhhhh we forgot?

          They didn’t forget to give GZ a tox screen, they intentionally prevented him from getting one. That’s why he didn’t go to the hospital either. Why would they prevent it? Because he was dirty. If he was clean, they would’ve put it out for the whole world to see.

          • anita says:

            They protected him from the tox screen & all the rest. A whole bunch of them need fired, but nothing will ever happen. I just hope to God they don’t have a ringer on that jury. We’ll find out soon.

          • anita says:

            My husband wanted me to add– “he was one of them”

    • Nellie Nell says:

      Can you imagine what they do when no ones looking?

    • Malisha says:

      Tim Smith’s squad car tape-recorder. NO WAY did he ride Fogen down to the station both of them silent. Remember, according to Ayala, Fogen was telling the EMT’s, “I was yelling for help but nobody helped me” so he was already yammering away trying to explain the various elements of the scene as witnessed by those around him. HE SPOKE and SO DID TIM SMITH.

      Look at the things Fogen said to provide explanations for things he realized were seen or heard:

      1. Looking for an address
      2. Jumped on his body to see if there were weapons in his hands
      3. Ambushed by “the suspect” who had “emerged from the darkness”
      4. Yelling for help but nobody would help.

      All said to explain away:

      1. People realizing he followed Trayvon;
      2. People having witnessed him ON TOP of Trayvon;
      3. People who knew he had confronted Trayvon; and
      4. People who heard Trayvon’s frantic screams.

  38. MDH says:

    I lived and worked in Northern Va.

    My wife and I had a discussion about GZ’s views on “Mexicans”.

    That is a “tell” in and of itself. There are not many Mexicans in Northern Va, if one just goes about their daily life without fear of the other such that stopping by a 7-11 for a coffee or big gulp is an experience about as traumatic as taking a morning pee.

    Northern Va has Hondurans, Guatemalans, El Salvadorans etc… who are actually quite nice if you say hi to them.

    As I said above in another post, I have rejected the idea of race altogether. So I have a hard time seeing generalizations attributed to a group as anything other than a futile exercise in abject stupidity.

    However, a colleague of mine says that people who are on the fringes of what is perceived to be a racial in-group often suffer from a marginality complex. A classic case is Hitler.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      As a response to your post, I am going to quote a comment by a fellow poster:

      >DOCJT said this to a another poster:

      Let me just say this…you will never be able to relate to Blacks, or any other minority, as equal individuals until you stop trying to predict their thoughts and behaviors and reactions from your white perspective.

      You are going to have to be willing to leave the safety net of white privilege for a minute, and actually admit that you know nothing of the Black experience in this country, and the only way to learn about it is to understand that you know nothing because you have lived with the protective umbrella of white privilege your whole life.

      This is not an accusation. It is simply the truth of this society.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Post note to those reading the above quote:

        Over the next few weeks, the person that DOCJT wrote that to, went from being a covert racist to a blatant racist.

      • MDH says:

        The truth is that our society is still based on the concept of white supremacy.

        How would you debunk this concept?

        IMO, the first step is to delegitimize the flawed science that gives basis to the concept.

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:

          I know that white privilege exists and that I benefit by it.

          Nothing to feel guilty about….I did not ask for it……it was bestowed on me at birth. No need for me to become defensive about it.

          But, I do have a responsibility of recognizing all the examples of it as they become evident to me and I do have the responsibility of educating my friends and others as to its existence.

          Only then can there be change.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            Within by being, I denounce white privilege every day as well as renouncing it.

            Unfortunately, it is deeply embedded in the institutions and power structures of our society.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            Some of the examples of my white privilege that I have become aware of are

            1.When reading a newspaper about a person of my race, I can expect that the writer of the article will not identify that person as being white.
            2. If somebody of my race commits a crime, I will not hear anyone using that person and his crime to stereotype my race.
            3. I know that I will not have to face inconveniences such as going to a hotel and not finding shampoo samples that will not work for my hair.
            4. Speaking of hair, I can be assured that no person will piss me off by asking to touch my hair.
            5. I know that when I walk down the street, no one is going to clutch her purse tightly when she sees me.
            6. I know that no one is going to come up to me and ask me to speak for my race.

            I can go on and on with many more examples.

        • You all have thoughtful comments says:

          I have read a book on the history of whiteness by a college professor that speaks to screwy development of the concept of race.

          However, to many people and even institutions are using the term “colorblind” to try to show that they are not prejudiced.

          The problem with this is that a person’s color is obvious. To be colorblind is to ignore another person’s identity, experience, and wonderful, unique being. Diversity in our country should be treasured and appreciated.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            Here is a link to an article entitled “Colorblindness: the New Racism?”


          • MDH says:

            That last paragraph speaks volumes. What I meant about rejection of race is that the concept becomes a prison that prevents an individual from enjoying the diversity of life in that one will see something that appeals to them, but asks “oh, that is for those people”.

            Take a look at the best guitar player threads on Daily Kos. It becomes a list of white players in a very narrow genre.

            Look at what Chris Blackwell did to Catch a Fire in order to make it palatable to “white” taste. It became over polished.

            Peter Tosh was right to call him Whiteworse.

            I bought Catch a Fire with both Blackwell’s final editing and the original work done by the Wailers.

            One might as well pitch Blackwell’s work out the window.

            We are all equally different and equally valid.

            I do agree that, as a white man, the white privilege drilled into our brains leads us to lecture down at people of color rather than keeping our mouths shut, eyes and ears open to learn something.

            The “colorbind” idea is merely thinking that the world would be a better place if all the square pegs that are individuals are hammered into the round hole that is arbitrarily defined by and as white.

            Look at the hullabo about braids.

          • vickie s. votaw says:

            I totally agree

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            The more we educated our white friends and acquaintances about the white privilege taken for granted the better will be the chance to see change.

            Of course, this is only step one.

            Sadly, the white power system and institution has a strong lock hold on our society.

        • MDH says:

          A good example of white privilege applicable to this trial is Tracy Martin.

          If Tracy Martin was a white man, then he could have had the privilege of venting his rage in public with most, if not all, of these ass clown talking heads nodding in agreement at his rightful anger at GZ killing his boy.

          Instead, he had to suffer in silence as that friend of the GZ family lied to get him removed.

          Instead, he had to suffer the indignity of the ass clowns in the media and the ass in court arguing that T brought his death on himself.

          Woe be to the black male who gets angry.

          It should be a right, not a privilege to be angry about the unjust death of your child.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:


          • texad says:

            And the fact that he couldn’t show his anger means that it is all bottled up. Neither he nor Sybrina have been able to work thru their grieving process. Justice will be served when GZ hears GUILTY. After that I want Tracy, Sybrina, Jahvaris, Rachel and all who knew and loved Trayvon to have time to grieve and remember the boy they loved so much. Repressed anger is not good.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Another classic case is Sundance Cracker.

    • DruDo says:

      MDH, I agree. I live in Northern Va., as do other family members, and our children are fortunate to have grown up with those of many varied ethnic backgrounds, races and gender preferences. Sadly, there will always be those who consider themselves “superior” to others, but our children do not agree with this misconception. They have no pre-conceived notions about others. They have always seen this as an opportunity to learn and appreciate someone else’s thoughts and feelings.They only care about what’s in someone’s heart, and to them, and us, as their parents, that’s all that matters. When I heard Mr. Guy say what he did about what was in GZ’s heart, I was glad and absolutely agreed because hatred, ill will and bias will destroy a human being and, as in GZ’s case, also destroy others.

  39. SearchingMind says:

    My good friend Tee, you are wrong. Dead wrong. GZ has vehemently refused/refuses to take responsibility for the Evil he did. GZ justifies his murder of a kid proudly, makes hundreds of thousands of dollars off that dead kid and smears his name and reputation in the most vile, venomous manner. We thus await the triumph of Good over Evil, of Truth over Lies. We will celebrate that triumph – to heal and strengthen our society, to protect our society from future GZs and bring some form of closure to Ms. Fulton and Mr. Martin. It all has nothing to do with GZ the man. I couldn’t care less about that odorous dunce called George Zimmerman.

  40. sadlyyes says:

    from the article

    Florida again

    A driving force behind the push for ever-tougher sentences is the for-profit prison industry, in which Wells Fargo is a major investor…. Wells Fargo has been busy expanding its stake in the GEO Group, the second largest private jailer in America. At the end of 2011, Wells Fargo was the company’s second-largest investor, holding 4.3 million shares valued at more than $72 million. By March 2012, its stake had grown to more than 4.4 million shares worth $86.7 million.

    The GEO Group, which is headquartered in Florida,

    WELLS FARGO worst bank in the foreclosure crisis


  41. Boyd says:

    If Fogen was dropped with one punch by Martin’s weak left hand. How hard would Martin have punched when he saw the gun?

    Or the flurry of devastating punches Martin would have thrown and landed while Fogen was getting the gun out. It would have knocked him out.

    When they play Martin up th be this Muhammed Ali like guy, then why would he at the most critical time be too weak to prevent being shot.

    • I wish the Pros said that one hit on concrete and your head “would explode”. You would be done. Put your head and tap the concrete in the jury room. There is absolutely no way someone could pound your head into concrete more than once and you would be able to function in any fashion”. While using M’OM’s display against him.

      • Boyd says:

        good point. too much to go over and we’ve been on it a long time

      • Two sides to a story says:

        When I was about ten years old, a neighbor boy straddled me in his driveway and tried to pound my head on the concrete. Point is, he only managed to do so once, and it didn’t leave a bruise or cut. Second point is that you do resist when someone tries to do that and it becomes hard for them to do it a second time, let alone a repeated number of times. You tend to tighten your muscles and not allow them to pick up your shoulders or your head. That’s why Fogen’s head-slamming story doesn’t add up for me.

        • Rachael says:

          If they would have been able to, despite your tightening up your muscles, you would have been SOOO sore the next day, not hopping in and out of cars or up steps the next day. You would be hurting bad.

          • Two sides to a story says:


            I also forgot to mention that with your arms free, you apply as much force as you can to push the person away and also you work hard to roll the person off. Not just to “shimmy” – you use every muscle in your body to get the person on top off. My neighbor kid was also punching me, though I think in the shoulder and not in the face.

        • abbyj says:

          Two sides, First, sorry that happened to you. Argh. Awful. Second, what was Fogen? A floppy rag doll? He and his lyin’ attorneys asked us to believe far too much that defies human nature and instinctive physical responses. Not to mention the evidence that exonerates Trayvon. I couldn’t agree more with you. The head-slamming story is total crap.

  42. Sabrina B. says:

    Good morning everyone. I see the jury has begun it’s deliberations for the day. I can see them pushing to get a decision today, as I am sure they want to go home. And because of their desire to push through rather than break a few times during the trial.

  43. Valerie says:

    HLN reports Ben Kruidbos, the IT director for the State Attorney’s office has been fired.

    • ay2z says:

      That was fast! Did they wait until the jury was sequestered before announcing that?

    • My Forehead Tho says:

      Good. Hopefully he changed professions because he’ll never work in another law firm again.

      • aussie says:

        No non-law company would want someone that untrustworthy around their computers and data, either.

        I think he did this for a spot of revenge for that earlier investigation. The work he did on the phone contents was not part of his job, he did it for his own amusement. That part I can understand — the chance to decode some interesting data. But the way he brought it out was a revenge move, probably knowing he’s close to being fired anyway. .

      • elle says:

        Or anything related to medical.

    • cielo62 says:

      Valerie- good! What he did was illegal. Stupid idiot.


  44. Woow! says:

    I think the jury already knows CAC is guilty. They are just trying to figure out if they M2 or manslaughter and which lesser charges.

  45. State Attorney Angela Corey fires information techonology director who raised concerns in Trayvon Martin case.


    State Attorney Angela Corey fired her office’s information technology director Friday after he testified last month about being concerned prosecutors did not turn over information to George Zimmerman’s defense team in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin.

    On the same day attorneys finished their closing arguments in that nationally watched trial, a state attorney investigator went to Ben Kruidbos’ home about 7:30 a.m. to hand-deliver a letter stating Kruidbos “can never again be trusted to step foot in this office.”

    The letter contended Kruibos did a poor job overseeing the information technology department, violated public records law for retaining documents, and noted he was questioned in March when the office was trying to determine who had leaked personnel information obtained through a computer breach.

    • Sophia33 says:

      I think he did it to try to set up the SA office. Good for her.

    • Woow! says:

      I read his termination letter. This guy was angry he was demoted.

      I do not feel sorry for him. He knew what he was doing. Let’s see if White or MOM give him a job in their offices.

    • That was to be expected.

      The poor guy made a huge professional mistake raising his concerns outside his team’s hierarchy and even worse going to the rival team.

      I don’t know if he’s been dragged by the apparent rivalries within SA Angela Corey’s team or if he simply chose to go against his employer. In any case, his carrier as IT may be over.

      When I saw Kruidos in the witness box, I felt pain for him as I could not see any private or public entity trusting him with their information.

      • SearchingMind says:

        Wes White would run against-, defeat and replace Angela Corey as the SA in the next election. If that happens, Ben Kruidbos will become Nr.2 in the administration of the SAO. Somehow this folly was communicated to Ben Kruidbos. And he (Ben Kruidbos) believed it and thereupon became a spy. I pity him (Ben Kruidbos) not. On the contrary. Ben Kruidbos was very calculating, cunning and poisonous. I saw firsthand the mischief in his eyes when he was answering questions both from O’Mara and Bernie. He knew exactly what he was doing and he hoped to gain from it. His only weakness is this: he ain’t very smart.

        • Woow! says:

          I tried to tone down my comment regarding Krubidos but it appears he let someone onto the state’s servers.

          I always wondered how much info MOM was really giving to CTH. Now this shed a little light on where the info was coming from.

          He should count his blessing they did not arrest him.

          CTH should be careful before the DOJ start sniffing aroung their trunk.

      • Malisha says:

        I sure wouldn’t trust him with MY information.
        Let him go to work for the NRA. Or the Tea Party. They need IT people. Oh wait, the Tea Party wouldn’t hire anyone who got on the wrong side of Corey … HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

        Let him go to work for THE ONION newspaper; he can divulge FAKE secrets!

      • Tzar says:

        When I saw Kruidos in the witness box, I felt pain for him as I could not see any private or public entity trusting him with their information.

        not me I thoroughly enjoyed his excoriation
        Choosing this case to grind his ax, shows just how little he thinks of the process and the victim.

      • Jun says:

        Once a backstabber, always a backstabber

        Why would White hire him, when he stuck it to Corey and them? He could just as easily do the same to White and considering how sheisty White is, he will have a lot of secrets to hide. His career is over, that’s the gist of it.

    • Yorazigo says:

      Back in February when I first started posting here I had read at the CTH (where i checked out from time to time what they were saying – ugh!) a comment by someone who said they had received documents leaked from BDLR’s office. When defense accused BDLR of misconduct and brought Wesley White and Kruidbos to testify, my 1+1=2 was that the CTH comment and defense’s allegations against Bernie were tied together.

    • smokeegyrl says:

      I have said this before… if he had thought that the State was at fault for doing something wrong. He should have gone a step higher in his reporting than even Angela Corey’s office, if he didn’t trust her. There are levels you can take. I also blame the lawyer Mr White who worked for the State Attorney’s office before. Mr. White should’ve took it to the State Attorney’s General’s office not O’Mara’s office that was a wrong move in the first place. Now look at them!

  46. jodiwankanobi says:

    if i go to sleep i just know the jury will come back with a verdict

  47. smokeegyrl says:

    This is going to upsetting, so make sure you have some tissue next to you as I am dropping tears now.

  48. Carmen says:

    I just recently graduated from law school and I have learned so much from this website and Professor Leatherman.

  49. Carmen says:

    Could someone please explain the following;

    CAC and Fogen.

  50. Two sides to a story says:

    Sorry if this is already posted upthread.

    Black intern on Fogen defense team speaks out

    • Woow! says:

      I can’t deal with people like her. I disagree that CAC is not a racist and that the case is not about race. MOM made this case racail. GTFOH

      If all of these people volunteered what did MOM need the hundred’s of thousands of dollars for?

      • aussie says:

        It truly was a once in a lifetime opportunity for her. What’s she going to say? And we know what a charmer a practised psychopath can be.

      • dianetrotter says:

        I think this was a strategic move for her. I noticed that she is 34 – a little old compared young attorneys starting out. She doesn’t look 34. Many people would pay to get this experience/publicity. It looks good on the resume regardless of the side you are on.

      • smokeegyrl says:

        I believe she took this as a volunteerism because it is a high profile case and it will boost her grades up but the down fall is that people will look at her differently if this man walks it will shut her career down as a lawyer. Since the governmental labels have forced race down our throats with this Census crap and circled us into groups… she will not be accepted into certain groups of people.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          I doubt it will shut her career down if Fogen is convicted. Defense attorneys just keep practicing regardless. They win some, they lose some. O’Mara and West probably win enough to keep their careers going.

        • elle says:

          Omg SmokeeGyrl, my family keeps getting picked for “the extra census”, and I get so angry because you are forced to put your race over and over and over. My children and I always refuse to check a race box. The children will be naughty and write in things like human being and none of your business, which I tell them not to do. But they think it is funny. I have been really appalled every time I am forced to fill out one of those freaking forms.

      • Sophia33 says:

        The sistah is trying to advance her career. It’s a once in a lifetime opportunity for a law student. I don’t fault her for that.

        Hopefully, she uses this insight to help people in the black community and not hurt them.

        This interview was orchestrated by the defense. I’ve been in situations like this. It’s tough.

        • smokeegyrl says:

          No, I don’t fault her for that either… I just wished she would of weighed the outcome before she made her decision to do this first. I honestly feel bad for her. I would’ve refused any type of interviews…

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I think it’s a plum opportunity for a law student who wants to be a defense attorny to work on Fogen’s high profile case. I can’t fault her for that and more power to her.

        But I think she’s quite mistaken about Fogen. I suspect she hasn’t had much contact with narcissists or sociopaths.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        It takes more than two people on a big case like this. Not to mention that OM spent so much time on PR.

      • Sorry, folks, but imo she lacks integrity.

        She is indeed on the wrong side of history.

        She’s just another sell out. They used her and she let them.

        She assisted the guys who humiliated Rachel because Rachel did not look or act like a Disney princess.

        She assisted the guys who went out of their ways to increase the suffering of Trayvon Benjamin Martin’s parents.

        She is helping the man who murdered Trayvon Benjamin Martin avoid any punishment for his crime.

        She is supporting PapaZ and his racist manifesto.

        She is condoning the Trayvon Martin shooting targets.

        • Malisha says:

          Anybody who opens his or her mouth to say Fogen is not a racist has to be terribly stupid, a liar, or both.

    • Sleuth says:

      ~ YAHTC, I saw her interview last night on 20/20. Channa is a very beautiful young lady, she is one of the 3, sometimes 4 people that I nicknamed, “The Robert Palmer Girls/Guy”. Remember the song, “Addicted To Lies….Oooops, meant say, “Love”? :-)

      I believe she and the others were harvesting information from the pj’s and witnesses social media accounts, FB and Twitter for the duh-fense.

    • My Forehead Tho says:

      Good for her. Idk how she, after reviewing all the evidence, can say with a straight face that this case isn’t about race, when it clearly is. Fogen racially profiled Trayvon. For the last two years he only called the police for the suspected “suspicious activities” of black males. This is what he called the police on Trayvon for. If thats anything to go, it’s safe to conclude that Trayvon would still be alive if he wasn’t black because Fogen would have never gotten suspicious of him.

      • Malisha says:

        If he HAD gotten suspicious of him and gone after him and killed him, he sure as Hell would have been arrested for murder that first damn night! Just how stupid do they want us to pretend to be?

    • KateW says:

      It is what it is. They didn’t do a very good job helping the defense anyway. With the hoard of interns behind them they should have been more prepared. As the professor said of OMara, “due diligence” was lacking in their case given the hap-hazard, sloppy, scrambled closing he gave yesterday. I had stated the night before, prior to the defense close, he would get no sleep. Why? Because of the interview he did Wednesday night where he assumed what kind of evidence the State would put on and he basically brushed them off. Perhaps it is because of the “weak” showing during the trial.
      The defense was wrong! They had no time to rebut the evidence because they concluded the State had no evidence, therefore, they probably didn’t prepare much until after Bernie’s close. That is why OMara seemed so out of it. Swaying at times, slurred speech, mumbling, drinking lots of water, incoherent, at times he seemed agitated, angry and most importantly he was condescending to the jury.

      • Unabogie says:

        It’s amazing how confirmation bias works. I’m watching John Guy’s closing, and to me it was pitch perfect. And I didn’t think that about Bernie (and O’Mara, with his giant hunk of concrete and his tired discredited lies, was just ridiculous.) But if you read the pro-Zimmerman people, they said things like “John Guy’s closing was evidence-free and nothing but emotions”. Seriously? He talked about the only evidence we really have: the story of the killer, the lack of serious injuries, the lack of DNA on the victim, and the many ways in which the killer’s story doesn’t add up. And of course, when I hear the defense arguments they seem completely weak and stupid. But I’m biased as well. Since people like us who seek out and comment on the case are completely entrenched in what we think, I don’t think anything we have to say, for or against Zimmerman, about the closings carries much weight.

        I’m hoping that the six jurors were not entrenched coming in and are open to hearing the evidence as it really is.

        • Two sides to a story says:

          Where’s Puck? Puck explains well this vision from two different worlds – the conservative and the progressive mindsets.

          • Yes, he’s studying sociology in grad school…lots of helpful insight.

          • Puck says:

            I’m here. Social and cultural beliefs are constructs that are learned through socialization (from the moment one is born throughout their entire life). However, what has come to the fore on the Right, especially since Obama was first elected, is what I call the mainstreaming of delusion. Many call it Obama Derangement Syndrome (e.g. birtherism, death panels, FEMA concentration camps), but its roots go further back, and the current state of confirmation bias, cognitive dissonance, groupthink, and an inability to even “hear” facts that conflicts with one’s beliefs (based on their own “facts”), let alone consider the possibility that these might be true.

            There are a lot of reasons for this, and I’ve done a ton of research and critical analysis from sociological/social psychological perspective. Much of it boils down to the primal fear of the Other, which is largely at the heart of all of this “Take our country back!” Tea Party stuff. I think someone wrote above or in another post about white privilege being chipped away, and those whose minds and social beliefs, behaviors, and actions depend so greatly on this privilege. The realization that a black president was elected by a coalition of Others (who, in fact, represent the reality of America in the 21st century) is a dagger through the collective heart of racists, those who aren’t racist but harbor racial resentment, and those who aren’t racist but are highly conservative in their cultural and social beliefs and see a threat from these Others — who are collectively embodied in a black man. The Others have chosen a black man as the national and international avatar of America, and the racists and far-Right can’t take it. A black man has been twice elected to lead the most powerful nation in the world, indeed generally considered the most powerful person in the world (though some might debate this). Such a dramatic reversal in a symbolic power dynamic incites not only fear, but hysteria and rage. What else but those visceral emotions, and the psychological and psychosocial effects they have in informing behavior and action, can get older, white, usually racist, disproportionately Evangelical people (who probably spat on protesting hippies in the 60s) off their couches and away from Fox “News” to travel to Tea Party rallies such as Glenn Beck’s 9/12 march or Tax Day protests?

            There’s also the rejection of science among many on the Right. Climate change, female reproductive anatomy, even mathematics as they rejected objective polls showing Obama cruising towards victory in favor of completely unscientifically “unskewed” polls that supported their bias? Romney himself was relying on this type of data. The saying “you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts” no longer applies, because now they have their own “facts.” That’s why Trayvon is still characterized by many as a 6’3″, 190+ pound thug even as the autopsy report clearly shows his real height and weight. I’m sure all of you noticed how ridiculously taller the cardboard Trayvon was compared to the cardboard GZ. Make his shoes taller, make his hood taller than the top of his head — and then these are “factual” depictions of the two.

            Neuropsychology is now starting to show fundamental differences in brain structure between progressives and conservatives. I haven’t gone near this in my research, because it’s very difficult to present this without being called a Nazi eugenicist. But if you’re interested, you should check out “The Republican Brain: The science of why they deny science — and reality” by Chris Mooney. And please, don’t shoot me, the messenger, as if I were the one making these assertions.

            I could go on and on. I might repost part of the conclusion of that big paper I mention far too frequently. Unfortunately, I can’t give a link to it or email it because it would make me doxable. (I also can’t use specific terms I’ve coined or use in the title, either, which significantly limits my discussion in posts like this.) Perhaps once the dust is settled on this case those still interested can get in touch with me. But I’ll give you a taste of the very end, where I throw caution to the wind and totally go off on a polemic.

          • Puck says:

            @edruminations : if that info came from my defunct blog, it’s no longer current. I finished school some time ago.

          • Puck says:

            And reading through my tl;dr post, I see some wonkiness in sentence structure, though I’m sure you good people get what I mean in those cases.

        • aussie says:

          That’s why they weeded out anyone who knew too much. Both sides would be happy with someone who’s already taken their side, but of course the other side won’t have that. So between them they got a jury that wasn’t living under a rock but hasn’t taken enough interest to take sides, either.

          The bias goes deeper than confirmation. It goes down to what counts as evidence. Anything they don’t believe is not evidence. They start out from a belief and accept ONLY items which confirm it. Not easy, when a lot of what they believe was made up of whole cloth, often by the same people themselves.

          If you remember back to the earliest days, people here were poring over the minute details of evidence as it was released. Beliefs and theories were based on that, and amended as more evidence came out.

          By now there’s heaps of bias, for sure. But based on evidence plus on rejection of the demonising of Trayvon and his family.

          However, leaving out the content, the prosecution closings were a lot better than the defence’s, just on presentation: tone, vividness, lack of repetition, and respect for the jury’s intelligence.

          Let’s hope it was enough.

    • rnewton32 says:

      That was ignorant on her part to say he is not racist. She doesn’t know Fogen from Adam or Eve. Does she honestly believe that Fogen would be open with her to reveal his inner most demons. His only concern is what can you contribute to get me off. Why would he show his racist side to the very team defending him. Even in silence he lies. He’s already made racist statements about Mexicans and others. She didn’t even answer the question correctly. She just assumed racist meant racist against AA. A mistake the majority of these nimrods make. There are other races you can be racist against. Even though she is not getting paid, She’s just an opportunist in the sense to get that experience under her belt for her future career. She should of just said I don’t know. But if she did she would be contradicting herself when she says she would not work for a racist (especially if you are uncertain if he/she is a racist).

      • Two sides to a story says:

        The black intern came into the picture when Fogen is locked in a position to kiss azz and appear in whatever way works in his favor. She wasn’t around when his defense team was behaving as though he is disgusting. You recall how they used to barely talk to him at the defense table and walk away from him like the toxic man he is.

        And I have no doubt that O’Mara would lie through his teeth to a black law student to get her on his team just for appearances’ sake. I think the girl is willfully blind, but it’s an opportunity of a lifetime even still. Perhaps she’s a Condoleeza Rice type. Hopefully she’ll take her experience and fight for her people.

        • Nellie Nell says:

          The cousin that he molested said that the family only like African Americans who “act” white and/or talk like they are white. In others words, those that speak like Rachel and Trayvon less than those that speak proper English and are educated. Meanwhile, he graduated at the bottom of his high school class.

          For the intern to say that she was told by a lying lawyer that the client is not racist is the most ridiculous thing she could have said. MOM would not know what is in fogens heart. She is foolish to repeat that. She may be smart by working the case, career wise and I am not mad at her for working the case. I do not appreciate her trying to defend fogen.

      • SearchingMind says:

        If you think someone is smart because they are- or call themselves lawyers or are in- or went to law school, well think again. The stupidity of this 34, and I mean 34yrs 3RD YEAR LAW STUDENT (!!) is, indeed, immense.

    • Sabrina B. says:

      Of course he is not going to be racists to her. He wants her to help get him off. I can’t stand people that say well, he/she/it was never displayed any signs towards me so that means they aren’t. Those people, IMO, simply justify and excuse it happening in others. I, being of a lighter complexion than many family members, can certainly see where I have been treated differently than my cousins. Or my darker co-workers. I was sensitive to that as a kid and knew that it wasn’t right or okay. No matter how much further up the rung, in life I go, I won’t ever turn a blind eye to what is clearly racists. She sat there and heard them box Trayvon into a category to which he did not fit, simply based upon his race. SMH The things we do to each other.

    • SearchingMind says:

      This lady does not yet understand that she was a tool/a useful idiot for the defense. During the trial, she had to walk over to GZ now and then, pass something to him (GZ) or pour him (GZ) some water, pat him (G) with affection on the back/shoulder while returning to her seat. This was all designed to tell the all women jurors that (a) look ladies, women are very comfortable with GZ and (b) GZ is not a racist. She was “hired” for no other reason, something this bimbo did not understand.

    • Tzar says:

      she looks good from far
      I will just keep it that way

      • SearchingMind says:

        Tzar, I hope this lady becomes part of history’s garbage as soon as possible. She could not (un)tie the shoes of the likes of Nathalie Jackson, Esq., who work tirelessly to undo the kind of damage caused by this kind of ignoramus. She could not even provide a single sentence or coherent answer as to why she thinks GZ is not racist. She knows GZ is not racist because she “just knows” it?! I wonder why O’Mara did not let this lady do the closing argument for the defense. She could have gotten the jury to acquit GZ within ONE hour. No kidding.

  51. Elizabeth says:

    Good job on the Kruidbos firing, right?What a seriously sneaky
    sleazebag and defence did have that information anyway so talk about backfiring on himself.
    I have to laugh because of his dutch last name which means as much as Kruid=gunpowder and bos=a bunch.LOL

  52. degraveegmailcom says:

    Woops, defense instead of defence of course

    • aussie says:

      LOL you’re catching the British spelling.

      • degraveegmailcom says:

        Is it? Thanks,for teaching me.

      • ay2z says:

        defense defence

        Aussie, you spell it the second way, down under? We don’t spell it with a ‘c’ in Canada, using Brit spelling. And just checked with my comptuer’s language flag, it always resets itself to US English, and after changing my choice (AGAIN grrr), the two words I first typed, as the ‘c’ version underlined.

        However, using the ‘c’ version, is useful when you say someone is sitting on de fence. ;)

      • ay2z says:

        Aussie, interesting, I have just checked my book copy of the 9th Ed. M-W Collegiate Dictionary, (printed in USA but sold in Canadian U. bookstores for recommended student use),and there is no listing for ‘defence’ but under ‘defense’, the spelling defence is given a an alternate.

        We are so much more influenced by the US media from regular cable, even non-cable, TV stations (long pre-internet media viewing was common), that we may have slipped into the ‘s’ spelling, just as we are slipping in common use, with ‘color’. (each and every time I spell ‘color’ or other similar words, like in this case, neighborhood’, I am aware of which I am using for this primarilly US audience.

        Wonder if providing Canadian university students with a required choice dictionary of M-W, instead of OED, that we are slipping even further away from ‘our’ own written language, and accepting that of the bigger media influence from the US. We do have protections in place, but we are out numbered and out-weighed,.

        Colour, neighbourhood, defence, (will use it now) thanks!

        Now to find my Webster’s Canadian dictionary from early school years.

        • ay2z says:

          Correction, it’s ‘Winston canadian Dictionary for Schools.

          Where M-W had ‘defense listed with alternate Defence’, The earlier Canadian schools dictionary, lists ‘Defence with alternate defense’.

          Both correct in Canada for some time now, but why was this spelling changed where other words stuck with the ‘ou’ spelling and are still prominent today. Maybe there was a choice in the OED as well, simply two correct spellings.

          Could this have anything to do with ‘defence’ being a federal gov’t ministry and adopting a more common international spelling? Or is it simply a choice and always has been.

          (don’t have an OED available in print version)

        • aussie says:

          We get a lot of American TV here, so that lets the latest slang spread very quickly. But there’s not a lot of writing on TV. News stories printed in papers, sourced from the US, get changed to our local spelling. Very easy to do, now it’s all computerised (<<<note the s).

          But I agree with Puck, changing the spelling on LITERATURE from another country is very weird. It seems everything has to be cleaned up and modernised, even if it means rewriting history. I've heard serious talk that old films should be edited to remove the cigarettes from actors' hands.

          We also get a fair bit of British TV and some Canadian, so our ears get their exercise. Some from BBC Scotland, too, and some of those accents take some learning to understand. American pronounciation won't spread here though, as people spend a lot more time with each other than watching the "box".

  53. KateW says:

    Why do people keep saying he got a jury of his peers?? Jury of your peers does not indicate all of one race. His peers consist of the people, of legal age, that are part of this society. That includes Blacks, Caucasians, Hispanics, Asians, Native Indians, Middle Easterners, Men, Women, etc. He does not live in a vacuum, surrounded by white women. This was not a jury of his peers. This is what was selected for this trial but by no means a diverse and inclusive bunch. I am not saying that these women, whatever their verdict, will not make a conscious and just decision. I feel the defense and State made a conscious effort to exclude any African Americans on the panel, the alternates did not include any African Americans either, and I feel there were a few qualified African Americans during jury selection.

    • aussie says:

      In the right sidebar, click on Archives for July and then open up the Jury Selection threads. It is all explained there by the Professor, how juries are selected.

      Basically, the notices are sent out to eligible people, who are all those things you listed. Then they’re lined up by lottery and questioned in that order; as soon as they have enough acceptable ones they stop. By luck of the draw the men and AA people were further down the list, so never got in.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Some part of karmic retribution that we don’t quite understand yet. Perhaps we will after the verdict.

    • A jury of one’s peers means a jury composed of fellow citizens.

    • cielo62 says:

      Kate- the Constitution right for a jury of one’s peers applies to the DEFENDANT and not to the victim. GZ got a jury of his peers; middle class people from his county. That’s all that’s required.


  54. sadlyyes says:

    i forgot the worst part of foagy
    HE BLAMED G-D for the murder
    it was g-ds will he said

  55. Sleuth says:

    I apologize if this has been posted earlier, here’s a brief narrative on each of the jurors. If you find any discrepancies, please charge it to my head and not my heart.

    Most of the jurors told the courts they have either owned a gun or knows someone, such as a family member or friend who owns one.


    B-29 is a woman, whose ethnicity is unclear. She is the only woman of color in the jury. She moved from Chicago four months ago. She is a mother of eight kids and has been married for about a decade. She works as the nurse of an Alzheimer’s ward and when she is not watching reality T.V., she is checking her Facebook. She informed the courts that she was arrested once.

    B-76 is a white woman who is a longtime Sanford resident. She relies on an over-the-air antenna for T.V. news. Her son is an attorney who deals with foreclosures and bankruptcies.

    NOTE: The State wanted to get rid of B-76 because of a comment she made during her interview. Her daughter, she said, did not think it was acceptable for 17-year-old Trayvon Martin to be out late at night. He was killed about 7 p.m. She said the only reason why she refers to the Orlando Sentinel is to get the coupons.

    NOTE: Hopefully after going over the evidence she discovers the truth about the time Trayvon was actually out.

    B-37 is a white woman in her 40’s. She is an animal lover. She is married to an attorney who deals with space law. She works for a Chiropractor, and said that newspapers were for her parrot cage. “It’s a lot better use,” she said. “I just don’t think they’re (media) truthful.” The mother of two adult daughters also said she took care of three dogs, four cats and had recently rescued a lizard. She described protests in Sanford as “rioting” and Trayvon as “a boy of color.”

    NOTE: She is a former gun owner, and chose not to renew her CCW. Believes getting a CCW too easy too obtain, and believes it should be harder.

    B-51 is a white woman in her 60’s. Moved from Atlanta and has lived in Central Florida since the 1980’s. She now lives in the City of Oviedo. She is a single retiree who doesn’t have children. She has a dog and a cat. Her parents live in Jacksonville. She has experience in real estate. And as the director of a call center in Brevard County, she supervised 1,200 employees.

    NOTE: Experts believe she will be named the Jury Foreperson.

    E-6 is a white woman in her 30’s. She is a stay-at-home mother of two teenagers ages 11 and 13. She said she used to work in financial services, but hasn’t been working since September. During the interview, she also revealed she had been the victim of domestic violence and was arrested once.

    NOTE: The State was concerned that she may know some of the witnesses.

    NOTE: Various analysts have observed her taking lots of notes. She is the juror who repeatedly requested the word “cracker” be repeated. Said her kids said the death of Trayvon is a very unfortunate incident. Said she worries about innocent people going to prison.

    E-40 is a woman who has lived in Seminole County for seven months and has also lived in California and Iowa. She is married to a chemical engineer and has a 28-year-old son who works in the fast food industry. She has worked as a safety officer for nearly two decades and enjoys traveling, reading and sports.

    Observations from legal analyst, Sunni Hostin: She stated the jurors were respectful of both the Defense and the State, and further stated the jurors did not take their eyes off Mr. John Guy as he gave his closing. Said the jurors were more attentive during the State’s closing than that of the Defense.

    She also stated juror E-6 was very attentive throughout the trial, and took tons of notes.

    Hoodies Up!

    • I recall West’s interminable rambling opening statement in which he told the jurors that the defendant purchased the gun to protect Shellie from an aggressive dog in the neighborhood. That should sit well with B-37.

      • degraveegmailcom says:

        She was afraid of a dog?This pair is not the animal nor children
        loving kind.
        He called the cops on little kids playing on the road for chrissake!
        A serious NW would set about trying to slow down traffic on his street through city council or even just hang around keep the kids of the road.

        • Deborah Moore says:

          I agree, but don’t you think it’s a good thing that they didn’t make any babies?

        • texad says:

          I live in a community that used to have a pretty active NW program. We had block captains who got others on their street to be the eyes and ears on the street. My next door neighbor was a young guy who had no kids but took a very pro-active stance on how he wanted our community to look. When kids were playing basketball in the street (a no-no) and running in resident’s back yards (another obvious no-no) he came up with a couple of simple but unique ideas: He bought a couple of used lawn mowers and would lend them out to the kids to cut yards to earn a little money. And he and the kids would often congregate on his back porch and just talk. I asked him why he took such an interest in the kids and he said because somebody in the neighborhood had to and all they needed was a little postive male feedback. GZ was obviously interested in NW for all the wrong reasons.

      • SearchingMind says:

        When it comes to justice, I trust women more than men. And Di-mayo (defense’s expert witness) described how they shoot and kill innocent animals for the sole purpose of experiment, i.e. see how long they lived/remained conscious after being shot in heart.

      • Sleuth says:

        ~ Professor, I know, and was actually surprised that he brought that up. Must have been a result of him drinking all that water ;-)

        I sure hope B-37 took notice.

      • kllypyn says:

        Yeah for a dog. And since when do you need hollow point bullets for a dog. When you buy hollow point bullets you want to make sure you really hurt somebody and i’m not tslk about a dog. He knew he had hollow points and he knew trayvon was under age and he knew aiming at his chest would guarantee his death. That alone proves murder 2.

    • SearchingMind says:

      Thanks Sleuth for the excellent refreshing summary.

      • Sleuth says:

        ~ SearchingMind, you’re welcome. But I can’t take full credit, it’s a combination of my own personal notes and ABC’s website.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Can anybody guess who the foreman is? According to some news reports, the defense was not happy about who it is. E6?

    • MedicineBear says:

      TY for posting this! Which one is the foreperson?

  56. acemayo says:

    All Blacks are evil
    If they can’t prove what they did is good
    Then all blacks are evil
    TM is dead he cannot tell what happen
    So we assume he was up to no good

    Remember the old saying
    Thee Only good Indian
    Is a dead Indian

    I can understand those believe
    GZ was just defending himself
    But many people just
    Wrote about their hates for blacks

    Isn’t all blacks alike
    We’re all gonna riot

    Why is so hard to
    Believe blacks are
    Not evil

    Tells Us
    What we do

    What they did to
    the Indians of this land
    When they made
    them evil

  57. Sophia33 says:

    The longer the deliberate, the more likely I fee he is going to jail.

  58. colin black says:

    Manue says:

    July 13, 2013 at 9:22 am

    Colin, I only know Argeles from crossing thru during a trip but the area is beautifull; I live on the west coast at the border of Spain, in the Basque Country (Euskadi in Basque language).


    Manue three or 4ntries Ive made my home an felt at Home UK ENGLAND SCOTLANDLD IRELAND WALES …India ….France.

    Argeliess was so good for me met one of the most Beutifell Women on the planet inside an out.

    A great Freaind off mine Richard A Canadian Bear of a Man an an his French wife rope me an aother Scots friend to help him turn 6 acres of vine yards into Camp round.

    Very basic shipped some old portable shower units from canads /porta cabins

    Turned one into a Burger chips cccrepe wine te ice cream /restraint.

    An had about 500 again ex military thistime ex britich army tents.

    Opened 1981.

    Today thres swimming pulls crazy golf three majors supermarket franchised an covers a sprall of

    Shit google earth its like a small city bot just Richards Campsite but hundreds if not thousands >>

    Butours was about the 4 th to open.

    Ah those were the dayzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    The Pyraneese in the back drop provided conditions so that lieing on the

    Beach or anywere thre was always not a gentle cool breeze but a substancial cool breeze

    Like lieing in front of a fan.

    So boy people couls burn most severe cases of sunburn ever seen in my life as the Brits Germans Northen Europeans just couldn’t take it out or figure out why thet didn’t fell them selfs cookin.

    After fifemonts out there I d come back to the Uk almost as Bronzed an dark as Trayvon

    Though never as handsome.

    treyjusticeisnearyounolongerknowofffear r I p.

  59. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Good morning everyone. Would someone post a YouTube of that song, “If I Had A Hammer” by Peter, Paul & Mary for me, please? I woke up this morning hearing that song in my spirit. And I am hearing it even now as I write my request.

  60. Sleuth says:

    I think it was a brilliant move on the part of Mr. Guy when he transformed into what a call his “Matthew McConaughey” mode. He slowed down the pace, and told the jurors a story about this kid, walking home from the store early one night, while being followed by a stranger in a car. It was like a scene right of the movie, “A Time To Kill”.

    I believe his storytelling was very effective, especially when you consider the fact that five of these jurors have children.

    Hoodies Up!

  61. riisey007 says:



    I was just sitting here and reading comments over this case, this SYG that occured after Martin was killed, this 17 year old was gun down over his music. i scrolled down on a site and seen the exact same types of comments in this case as in Zimmerman, people claimed they were upset over the national attention martin got but this case did not get nearly that kind of attention and people are still mocking the dead child, talking about his parents, accusing his friends. This is just rediculous. my son is suppose to go to Orlando on vacation with my family this month. I may have to cancel that. This is just rediculous, it is open season on teen AA boys in Florida. I just don’t get it.

    • RBLKMSCORPIO says:

      In the Jordan Davis case the shooter was arrested the next day and is being held without bail. But he still tried to sell the “fear the black thug/gangster” stereotype to mainstream society.

    • elle says:

      Riisey, my daughter (a tiny white female) is going to Florida this month also. I really do not want her to go. She looks about 15, she is less than 5′ tall. I cannot imagine how scary it must be for you, when I am scared and we are white. This is really hard. I pray both our babies are safe.

  62. HeresLookingatYou says:

    I hope the jury has already decided he is guilty and they deciding between . Murder and Manslaughter I will take so do either..
    Just no free walk

    • HeresLookingatYou says:

      I will take either .. sorry dang kindle wants to write for me

    • diary73 says:

      I hope for a verdict of nothing but Murder 2. A verdict of manslaughter will forever make this killer a martyr.

      • diary73 says:

        …among his followers.

      • HeresLookingatYou says:

        His followers mean nothing he is already their hero…
        I want other depraved people like the killer to know .
        It’s not hunting season on our children ..
        You will be held accountable and go to prison…
        But make no mistake I have lived and breathed this trial…
        Murder2 is the right decision…a Guilty is mandatory.

        • mrsdoubtfire says:

          Jurors compromise….always have. I’d rather see him guilty of manslaughter than walk. Acquittal means he has been rubberstamped as doing no wrong. He then can freely profit from his noteriety and knowing Z’s love for money he would milk it for all its worth. Hannity and Fox would give him and his family a platform to spew how badly they were treated by the establishment. But worse Trayvon will be deemed a thug who was responsible for his own death. The media will delve into those text messages and pictures on his phone which as far as I know have not been sealed and therefore can be freely accessed via Florida’s liberal public record law. Hell No The State’s case was not brilliantly presented. John Guy hopefully turned it around yesterday. I was relieved JN allowed the jurors the choice. West was totally opposed. He wanted these women only to have an all or nothing choice.

      • Deborah Moore says:

        I disagree.
        A verdict of manslaughter means he Killed some one.
        It also means prison time. Lots of it.
        Those who want to see him as a martyr will think that anyway it goes.

        • Rachael says:

          One of the reasons that the defense didn’t want aggravated assault was – at least this is what I heard on TV – is that he could have ended up with more time than the Murder 2 (or maybe it was the manslaughter) so even though it was a “lesser charge,” it had greater time – or something like that. Not that it makes any sense, but that is what they said.

      • MedicineBear says:

        I absolutely agree, diary!

    • Tzar says:

      I hope they are deciding what color hoodie they should each wear in order to deliver their verdict

    • chi1224 says:

      I would take manslaughter over NG for sure, but I honestly hope for murder 2. I think Fogen is VERY depraved. He shot a kid screaming for help, and then went on national TV with “no regrets” saying it was “God’s plan”… if that isn’t depraved then I don’t know what is?? And the jury should know both of those facts.
      But you never know with juries… if God forbid we have a hold out maybe manslaughter could be the compromise.

    • aussie says:

      Defence wanted manslaughter off the table to force an all or nothing decision.

      IF they bring in manslaughter a lot of people will say he wasn’t really all that guilty, it was just a sympathy for the dead kid thing.

      If they bring Murder 2 even though there was a lesser choice, that sends a strong message – DO NO GO ABOUT MURDERING KIDS.

      No way it’s involuntary manslaughter. Nothing involuntary about carefully aiming around to not hit the hand you’re holding the victim with.

      Plenty of ill-will in profiling an “effing punk azzhole” . Plenty of depraved mind shooting to eliminate a witness.

  63. chi1224 says:

    Hello everyone! I have been very busy today and not had a chance to watch the news or go online, but a friend of mine just told me the jury opted to keep going through lunch! This could mean they are very close! Has anyone else heard that or any other new?
    Hoodies Up!

  64. Carmen says:

    I hope all of the Sean Hannity’s and Fox News cabal, start a defense fund for all of poor people of any race who were, in fact, overcharged and are wasting away in prisons throughout the country. Just ask the kid who did 15 years for possession.

  65. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    What plays over and over in my mind is Surdyka’s testimony. That woman was visually upset and she was in my opinion an eye witness to what happened. She said, “I’ve never seen anyone killed.”

    • HeresLookingatYou says:

      Whenever I’ve seen something going on I call 911 if necessary but I’ve always kept watching…

    • chi1224 says:

      And she called Trayvon a “boy” too. That call always sticks in my mind too. She was so upset, and so sorry she couldn’t do something to help. I also think she had one of the most compassionate 911 operators I’ve ever heard.

      • HeresLookingatYou says:

        I wanted to reach out and comfort that women she was so alone and so distraught…I felt so much compassion for what she had been witness to

    • riisey007 says:

      Amazingly her testimony was just swept under the rug, it just seemed so strange to me. She worked with teens as a teacher and she also worked with youth in another profession. She seemed more of a plausible witness to identify the screams at the very least. I am very confused by how little they valued her testimony.

    • Jasmine says:

      Her call really got to me too. I am sure that she felt so alone on that witness stand. It was hard to watch her. And she was wondering why Fogen shot him. She obviously did not see a fight so I am sure that she could not reason shooting anyone. If she had seen some kind of altercation she would have said. She saw nothing of the sort. I feel so bad for her, she has to live with that for the rest of her life. Witnessing a rape was a hard thing for me to deal with so Jane witnessing a murder must be an unbearable burden.

    • aussie says:

      And the other side dismissed her, from the start, as a hysterical crybaby whose word is worthless.

      What got me on first hearing was her saying “I don’t want to be a witness”…….. which nobody says unless they SAW.

      I missed her this time, does she still live there? I guess not, all of them seem to have moved away from the evil memory.

    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      Which house did she live in?

  66. riisey007 says:


    Geraldo Rivera is a piece of crap, he was the host of a sleezy talk show and now he is on Fox news running his evidently ignorant and very uninformed mouth. This is the reason why people are not able to see Martin as a regular teen who was doing nothing wrong. He really makes me sick, he has no class and he just does this so he can keep his place on Fox news because he is not the race they care for.

    • My Forehead Tho says:

      He is truly disgusting and despicable.

    • Rachael says:

      What a fucking asshole. And as far as how those ladies would have felt, they probably wouldn’t have been so stupid as to get out of their car if they felt that way. Common sense. You see someone you are scared of (regardless of why) you call the police and get out of there. You don’t get out of your car – so obviously GZ was NOT afraid of him and went looking for him. You can’t hunt people Geraldo!!!

      • riisey007 says:

        That is what a lot of the commenters were saying. No one willfully unless they are up to something or trying to save a child,etc would put themselves in harms way to catch someone who by their own admission was doing nothing but looking weird. I know I wouldn’t. I have seen a lot of strange things and the stranger it looks the more distance I give it. Geraldo is a piece of crap who when his show died out and he was trying to make it he was able to slither to Fox news. People like Geraldo who knows that Fox is racist seem to think he is in with them since he is shuck and jiving but in reality they probably talk about him and call him a big nose wet back.

        • anita says:

          Yesterday I called Geraldo a moron. Today I’m with Rachael, he’s a fucking asshole. I was trying not to cuss, so much for that.

    • MedicineBear says:

      If I weren’t such an evolved human bean, I’d be hoping for el Gerald-o to cross the path of an armed CAC wanting to bag one of them effing “illegal alien” Mexican porn-star-looking punks.

      oops . . . turns out I’m not that evolved.

    • Tzar says:

      make them pay and they will stop
      either boycott or reduce their ratings

  67. KateW says:

    Kruidbos needed to be fired! If you have a grievance with your employer you go through the proper channels and follow protocol. You keep documents of how you followed protocol and procedure with your grievance. You don’t inject yourself into a case because you don’t know when or how that information will be given or why. He is not an attorney, he is an IT employee who decided to divulge information based on his feelings for the defendant in the case or whatever bias he has.

    Any Human Resources personnel will tell you that his is not some insignificant thing. Going to others to solve grievances with your employer is a NO NO. All companies frown upon this behavior, not just the government. Go to any interview and tell the HR person you had a falling out with your company because you took matters into your own hands outside the companies protocol and procedures and guaranteed they will not hire you. Bad mouthing a former company, boss or the way the company handled business will not get you hired anywhere unless your family owns the business.

    • Tzar says:

      hell he could have gone to the judge in the case
      he could have gone to the FBI and that would have been bad enough, but the defense by proxy of his lawyer? nope that is highly improper

    • Two sides to a story says:

      He thought he was a big whistleblower hero.

  68. My Forehead Tho says:

    Karma, has anybody noticed it?

    1. Fogen had Trayvon scared of being murder, now he’s afraid of being murder. So much so, that he has hired 24 hour body guards and wears a bulletproof vest everywhere he goes.

    2. He profited off the misfortune of his victim, now his friends (Osterman) and family (Papa Z) have profited off of his.

    3. He ended a life, now the life as he knew it has ended.

    4. etc.

  69. degraveegmailcom says:

    Stole this pic from the Field Negro blog

  70. Just saw a video report on USA Today of a few people hanging out with signs in Sanford.

    A white dude held up a sign that said “Creepy Ass Cracker is Racist.” He was arguing with TM supporters.

    Imo, he’s up to no good. He’s looking for trouble. But, hey, whites are allowed to be jerks.

  71. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Remember when gz was talking about smothering and he slipped and said, “I had one hand….” and then he corrected and said, “He had one hand…..”?

    • FactsFirst says:

      I sure do… and “he started screaming, uh I started screaming help! Help!”

      • Rachael says:

        There was another one in the walk-through. Can’t remember what it is now, but he did that. He said, and he said and Serino (I think it was) said who said that, and GZ said “I said that.” I’ll go back and look, but he did that several times and correcting himself.

        • towerflower says:

          In one of the audio interviews, Z slips and says he was screaming and Serino stops him and asks who was screaming? and he corrected himself to say it was he who was screaming. One of many Freudian slips.

          • towerflower says:

            Should be more specific, in the interview fogen first said that he– TM was screaming which caused Serino to stop and ask “who was screaming?” and Fogen said he (forgen) was.

        • Rachael says:

          I mean that is how he knew how to say he was the victim, because he knew what he was doing to Trayvon and what Trayvon said so he changed places. That is why that thing at the end Mr. Guy did was so powerful. He was showing how GZ traded places with Trayvon in his lies.

  72. fauxmccoy says:


  73. breelee says:

    1st I want to repost one I saw on the last thread, afraid others didn’t see it:

    “HeresLookingatYou says:

    July 13, 2013 at 7:52 am

    I would imagine these woman want to get back home soon.
    I hope they realize that’s all Trayvon was wanting too.”

    I’m hoping so also HL@Y. Well, my guess for a verdict was for 3:00pm today, doesn’t look like I’m going to get it right. I don’t care when it comes in, as long as he’s convicted. We’ve waited this long, we can wait as long as it takes.

    Not only will we be devastated if he’s freed, but having to see him and his family and friends celebrate will be the death of me. I can still clearly see that biotch jumping up and down after CA was set free. The old coot flippin the bird didn’t bother me half as much as she did. Who can be happy when a child has been murdered? I expect we’ll all need to be put on calming meds if fogen gets off.

    Professor, I must have seen it different than you and others. When Sybrina walked out, I thought MOM was showing a picture he assumed was “thug-like” of Trayvon. It looked like the bird photo, without the bird. Did everyone else see a death photo? Either way, he bites a big one. Imo, even if you’re trying to get a killer off, you should ALWAYS show respect for the victims loved ones.

    Thanks everyone for all the insightful and heartfelt posts. I read them all and shed tears for all the pain you’ve been through. I see the kids of today, being way more compassionate than when I was raised. I don’t think most see color, I know my boys sure didn’t. They always got so angry that a dog we had would have a fit when their black friends would come to the house. That dog got scolded a lot! lol Hoodies Up and prayers for Trayvon’s loved ones.

    • anita says:

      I saw the thug-like photo,but there were 2 photos. Either way, I’m proud of Sybrina for walking out. Hoodies Up!!

    • Imo, even if you’re trying to get a killer off, you should ALWAYS show respect for the victims loved ones.

      Mark O’Mara doesn’t give one iota about the victim or his loved ones. Why? They’re black and undeserving of sympathy. When he said he was sorry to Sybrina about Trayvon. That was for the cameras. He didn’t mean any of it. He showed it by cross examining the victim’s mother.

      • aussie says:

        He didn’t say sorry. He said “I apologise……” Apologise? for someone’s murder? like apologise for being late to a meeting? wtf???

  74. colin black says:

    What you talin about Willis?

  75. Sleuth says:

    I just loved, loved, loved the heck out the twist BDLR put on one of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.’s most famous quotes when trying to get the jurors to better understand Miss Rachel Jeantel’s testimony.

    BDLR said, “She should be judged not by the color of her personality but by the content of her testimony”. So powerful.

  76. breelee says:

    I’m so stressed on missing the verdict, and cant stand having those jerks on my tv. I have a pay-as-you-go phone, can it do that tweeting thing you guys were talking about for the verdict? I have it for breakdowns only since I live in the middle of nowhere, have probably used it 10 times or less. Can anyone talk..real…slow and tell me how to do it? : ) Its a LG if it matters. Thank you. Oh, or can I get it on my home phone? That’d be even better.

    • bettykath says:

      lol. You need to find a tween or a teen to help you. Go to your nearest middle school or high school if you don’t have one handy. I have a couple of nephews that I call on when I need tech help.

      There was a warning of some sort for droid phones. I passed it on but included a question for my nephews, “do I have a droid?” they responded with “lol, no you don’t.”

    • Breelee, go to http://www.twitter.com and make you a twitter account. You do not have to use your phone. You can have an account that shows tweets on a page just like this one. When you have your account just type in search for whomever you want to follow to get the tweet when a verdict is in.

      • breelee says:

        Hinkster, but how will it alert me? I hate to show how out of touch I am, but are you saying it’ll email me or call me? I was hoping not to have to have my laptop on at all times, so hope its not by email.

        Betty, lol wish I had one here. My grands are 9 and 14, but live over 50 miles away.

        And a big thanks to you both. : )

  77. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:


      Thanks for posting this,Granny.

    • breelee says:

      Go Granny Go, you did it! Thanks for sharing, loved it.

    • texad says:

      IMO, this is the best 4 minutes of that movie. It’s like the end of a Shakespearean play. Forgiveness, recovery, agape love, faith of victim to move onward, a child’s faith, community encougagement, hope for the new day. It’s all there. But of course, that’s what gospel music is about anyway. LOL.

      Thanks Granny. You did good.

  78. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    I did it. Thank you Sleuth and Deborah. I pray that everyone is blessed by this song. There is healing in it.

    • Sleuth says:

      ~ Yay! You did it!

      Is this from the soundtrack of one of Tyler Perry’s movies? I love this song.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        Yes, I started to post one on YouTube that a church had a play and in the play a child is shot, but you cannot hear it that good, At least I couldn’t hear it, but I am hearing impaired,

  79. towerflower says:

    Things are not going well over at the Outhouse. SD is losing it, attacking MOM and others within his own site.

    They are also getting nervous about the length of time, most thought it would be a slam dunk with a verdict returned by now.

    Sounds like the tree is starting to become unstable (as if they weren’t already).

    • Rachael says:

      LOL – That is the best news I’ve heard in a LONG time. There is only one thing I’d like to hear more. And y’all know what that is!!!

    • MedicineBear says:

      Watch out if they start SWAYING!

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Loving it. People over at TalkLeft – some of the same people who post at the Treestump – were also amazed that the jury didn’t issue a not guilty verdict within the first hour. The evidence entirely absolves Fogen, don’tcha know?

    • Woow! says:

      Those people feel if CAC is found guilty, white people can’t protect their families anymore.

  80. My Forehead Tho says:

    From Sabrina Fulton this morning:

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Beautiful message from Sybrina with her putting Trayvon in the Lord’s hands by symbolically letting both ends of the word TRUST hug the skittles-full “U” representing Trayvon and that night.

      Absolutely amazing! So deeply moving! *trusting tears*

    • breelee says:

      Omg, I didn’t even notice the skittles. That woman amazes me to the depth of my core, with her strength and grace. If my child was murdered, and then half the country was trashing him, I’d be a loose cannon out of control. I’d be locked up or put away, and here she and Tracy handle this better than Mother Teresa could have, imo. Women of the jury, please don’t let them down..

      • elle says:

        They would have had to eject me from the courtroom every time one of the defense lawyers spoke. My hysterical meltdowns would have been remarkable and hilarious to everyone who was not me. Sybrina has the strength of a mountain range, a determined unmovable force of love, I could not admire her more.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Sybrina and Tracy:

      Tears in your heart
      Weeping for your child

      Deep soul ache

      Moving forward in the name of your child
      Using the ache in the name of your child
      Steadily stepping toward the light of justice

      Lifting up all children
      Seeking a safe world for them
      Saying NEVER AGAIN

      A journey overseen by Trayvon with the Lord
      A cause built of tears
      A clear voice that will be heard

      Tho’ the walk be rough,
      The din will be silenced
      By the goodness.

      Yours is a steady light,
      Dispersing the darkness.

      You WILL be lifted up.
      You WILL sail to the worthy heights.
      Your wings are supported by us.

    • HotFlash says:

      TrayvonRoland U SabrinaTracey

    • elle says:

      I have been trying to articulate how much I admire Tracey and Sybrina. It is incredible that everything they have done has been about their son. They never make it about themselves. They discuss their pain when asked. This has always been about how much they love their son and what they feel they owe him. This is about justice for Trayvon, not themselves.

      I am a total drama queen, who always makes everything about myself without even realizing I am doing it. They are amazing, amazing people. My deepest respect to them.

    • Beautiful!

      Is there a way to notify Twitter of abuse & a false account? I stumbled upon one for Sybrina, and it was horrible.

  81. What do you think is going on in deliberations? It’s the past the 9th hour and I’m not liking this.

    • Rachael says:

      I think it is a good thing. It means they are taking their job very seriously and studying all the evidence very carefully. I’m not sure if they understand how far-reaching their verdict will be, but they do seem to understand it is not a decision to make lightly.

      • towerflower says:

        One of the “local experts” yesterday on the news said that a quick verdict would have favored the defense and a longer verdict normally favors the prosecution……don’t know how true that is.

    • boar_d_laze says:

      There’s no way to know what it means. None of the stuff people are talking really helps with predictions.

      This is a big case, and every big case is one of a kind.

      The only good way to know what the jury is thinking to wait for their verdict.


    • rnewton32 says:

      I know its hard but have patience. Use the wise tweets from Sybrina to guide you and keep your faith in God. I feel the jury already has their minds made up. They just have to decide if its Murder 2 or Manslaughter. If they felt he was innocent, I think they would have returned a verdict by now. I think they will use this weekend and deliver a verdict on Monday.

        • Dee says:

          Besides that, they know it is a big nationwide case they want to make sure when they start to get asked about this case, and they can say, they took their time and made their decision. These people don’t want to be on the opposite side of history, just because they may have some biases, on just race alone. They know they will have to live the rest of their lives. If they just let this man walk free without any punishment, because 1 he shouldn’t have gotten out of his car to begin with. If he let the police do their job nothing else after that point, wouldn’t have happened period. This is why we have to do something about this law that says it okay to follow someone. That is totally ridicules, and this has to be changed.

          This means we will never really know how and why someone is following us. What are we supposed to do. Just let someone follow us until they kill us. I really wished that Trayvon had a gun that night. However, he was following the law that he knew and that was it’s against to have a gun, not registered. However, if he had he may have been still alive today. These laws got to change. We might as well still be allowing them to hang us from a tree again, with these kinds of laws on the books.

          The KKK are not dead they have only changed their sheets to suits. Now they are secretly in our juridical system, prisons, hospitals as well as those who are making these laws, such as SYG, and you can follow who you want to in the dark and in the rain, without any repercussion for doing so. Making laws and that says you can follow someone provoke them by showing them your gun then shooting them. Then just use few simply words ” I was in fear of my life.” Which I couldn’t understand when they taught us this in class. When I was getting my conceal weapon license to carry. It was like they were saying don’t worry about it kill them and just remember to say I was in fear of my life. Why would I want to shoot someone who was not doing me anything.

          That’s when I realize who this law was really for the black not
          the white to stand behind for their hate crimes against other they
          may not like I thought, but they were making it sound like go have fun now shooting who you want, just make sure you use those words and nothing else. So I know that Zim was aware of what he was going that rainy dark afternoon. Now he has to pay through the same laws that he learned to take Trayvon life away from him. He will live by the laws of the accused soon.

  82. Dee says:

    Good thing is they don’t know what the manslaughter hold which is up to 30 years with the gun charges included. The judge has been checking Z out and the way he does show any remorse. She is known for watching body language of the accused. She said that about a prior case of that black kid that killed someone and went in front of Judge Nelson, and she denied it. And also said that he had no signs of remorse. So you better believe she has been watching Zimmerman in court. How he smiles when he thinks is funny, and stare as though he has no heart.

    They will find him guilty of manslaughter thinking that they would give him a slap on the wrist. However, the slap will be 25-30 post possible after the strike Florida’s guns laws are added. Which Mr. West wasn’t even aware of, he said no it isn’t 25-30 The Judge corrected him and said yes it is, after the gun sentencing is added. West stood there with his mouth wide open for a while. This is when everything turned for West, I feel he thought immediately he had lost and Z is going to prison for a very long time. If you look at him now he has a more distant feel with Z, like a you don’t know exactly was you are about to face, type look.

    • rnewton32 says:

      I think that will be another form of karma. It was the gun laws that he thought he would find immunity under which extended his prison stay. Absolute karma!

    • rnewton32 says:

      Another form of Karma is the lesser charge giving him a longer prison stay, even though in his mind a lesser charge would mean the crime is not as bad as Murder. You see God’s plan is at work, just like he claimed.

  83. amsterdam1234 says:

    Somebody added a clip from a movie that had the exact lines GZ use. ” do you have a problem” ” now you do”. I forgot who posted the clip, from which movie it came, and on which thread it was posted. Anyone remember?

  84. degraveegmailcom says:

    I think she showed compassion when she asked if he wanted to testify,
    and made the lawyers back off.
    That was more than enough IMO and it should have made Fogen

    • bettykath says:

      I think she deliberately asked twice. The first time was to put him on notice that it was his decision and his alone and to make sure he was ready to make his decision by the time the defense was otherwise ready to rest.

      • degraveegmailcom says:


      • ay2z says:

        I thought the judge was not going to let the lawyers tell him what to say. The first time, he leaned to his lawyer who apparently said something to him before his answer. (same as they did after the big fuss in pretrial hearings, when he gave the same answer ‘after consultation with my lawyers….’)

        The first time, the lawyers fought hard to keep him from saying anything in answer to JN’s questions. This time, maybe they wanted to use it as a flaw in the case, had the defendant got away with relying on lawyer’s to tell him what to say about testifying.

    • aussie says:

      She has to hear it from him personally, by law. Prevents people later appealing and saying their lawyer said without consulting them. But West kept interrupting, probably to make sure he didn’t say yes, he wants to. .

      The same rigmarole went on when she had to ask him if he was dropping an SYG or immunity hearing.

      She did talk to him in a kind and patient tone. And took side smacks at West in between.

      • degraveegmailcom says:

        There where a few priceless moments from her like the
        “don’t no no no me!”
        and “stop jumping up and down”
        another good one that I loved was Moms “Object”
        Judge responded super friendly “OK” smiled and then
        never pausing “overruled” with a where-where-we attitude.

        Overall though more and more I was beginning to feel the way
        Tashatexas was expressing it.

      • rnewton32 says:

        Did the jury witness that? If so, that should have spoke volumes to Fogen’s credibility from his lawyer’s point of view. I know some are against taking the stand. But if your claiming self defense, I think you owe it to the jury to give your testimony.

      • anita says:

        ~aussie thanks for using the term”rigmarole”. My Daddy used it, haven’t heard it since he passed 5 yrs. ago. I never knew how to spell it. Must be an older term, not popular now.

  85. My Forehead Tho says:

    According to HLN, these are other high profiled cases’ jury deliberation times and convictions:


    1. Jodi Arias
    15 hours
    Guilty of first-degree murder

    2.Jerry Sandusky
    20 hours

    3.Drew Peterson
    14 hours
    Guilty of murder

    4.Conrad Murray
    9 hours
    Guilty of involuntary manslaughter

    5.Phil Spector
    30 hours
    Guilty of second-degree murder

    6.Scott Peterson
    seven days
    Guilty of first-degree

    Acquitted- Not guilty:

    1.Casey Anthony
    10 hours and 40 minutes
    acquitted of first-degree murder

    2.O.J. Simpson
    4 hours
    acquitted- first-degree murder

    3.Robert Blake
    35 hours
    acquitted of first-degree murder

  86. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Does anyone have a good video of the song “Keep Your Eyes on the Prize”?