Monday, March 11, 2013
Good morning:
I write today to clear up some remaining uncertainty regarding the timing for a motion for immunity and the immunity hearing.
The motion for immunity is similar to a motion to suppress evidence because, if the motion is granted, the case is over.
Hearings on potentially outcome-determinative motions, such as a motion to suppress evidence, are always held before trial because, if the moving party wins (i.e., the defendant), the case is dismissed and there is no trial. If the defendant loses, the case proceeds to trial, unless he pleads guilty.
For example, let us suppose that a police officer arrested a defendant without probable cause and discovered a rock of crack cocaine in a pocket in the defendant’s jacket during the search incident to the arrest. The defendant is charged with possession of cocaine and pleads not guilty at the arraignment.
The defendant moves to suppress the rock before trial on the ground that the arrest and subsequent search were unlawful because the officer arrested him without probable cause. But for the unlawful arrest, the rock would not have been discovered. Thus, the rock is a “fruit of the poisonous tree” and must be suppressed pursuant to the exclusionary rule. That is, evidence seized unlawfully from a defendant by police cannot be used against the defendant at trial.
Without the cocaine, the prosecution would be unable to prove that the defendant possessed cocaine. Therefore, it would have to dismiss the case and the court would have to grant the motion.
An immunity hearing is similar. If the defendant prevails, the court must grant immunity from criminal prosecution and civil suit. Therefore, the outcome is similar to the motion to suppress. The prosecution cannot proceed and the court must dismiss the case.
While it is theoretically possible to merge a hearing on a motion to suppress evidence into a trial, there is little sense to do so because the issues and attorney strategies are different.
For example, the direct and cross examination of the arresting officer for purposes of the suppression motion will be focused on whether the officer had probable cause to arrest, whereas, the legality of the arrest and subsequent search is not an issue for purposes of the trial. It’s just something that happened and no longer relevant to the ultimate issue the jury must decide. That is, whether the defendant is guilty or not guilty.
I have provided the simplest example of a motion to suppress evidence. They can be far more complicated and last more than one day, such as might be the case when multiple locations are searched, some with search warrants and some without. It makes no sense to waste the juror’s time and risk confusing them with irrelevant evidence and issues.
In the federal and state courts in which I practiced, the courts set deadlines within which to file motions to suppress. Failure to comply with a deadline typically meant the motion was waived, unless you had a good reason for not filing the motion, such as newly discovered evidence that you did not know prior to the deadline.
Federal and state judges hate to summon people for jury duty for cases that can be potentially resolved by outcome-determinative motions prior to trial. They hate even more having to waste jury time with evidence that is irrelevant to the issues the jury must decide.
Although constitutional rights are at stake during hearings on motions to suppress evidence, the courts can and do hold that those rights are waived by failing to assert them in timely fashion.
Just as notice and an opportunity to be heard are important to due process of law, so too is finality. Legal issues that can be decided should be decided. I cannot think of a good reason not to decide the issue of immunity before trial and to deem it waived, if it is not.
I have already written about the potential for constitutional error requiring reversal of a conviction and remand for a new trial here and here, if an immunity hearing is merged into a trial and will not revisit that issue today.
However, I will comment regarding the idea that an immunity hearing could be conducted after trial.
If a jury returns a guilty verdict, the case is over. Since the defendant’s guilt has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, the jury necessarily must have decided that the prosecution proved absence of self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. The verdict precludes a finding that the defendant proved self-defense by a preponderance of the evidence. Therefore, the immunity motion must be denied.
If the jury acquits the defendant, however, either judge or jury could theoretically decide that the defendant had met his burden of proving by a preponderance of the evidence that he acted in self-defense.
The problem in this situation, however, is that the jury may have acquitted a defendant who did not testify or offer any evidence, which a defendant has a right to do.
Should he now be permitted to put on a case to prove that he acted in self-defense?
Does he have a right to have the jury decide that issue or must the judge decide the issue.
What happens if the defendant testifies and the judge or jury decides they do not believe the defendant and now want to find him guilty?
I do not see any easy answers to these questions.
There is no doubt that the legislature intended that the issue of immunity should be raised and decided before trial and I can think of no good reason to do otherwise.
If I were the judge, I would hold a hearing as soon as possible to consider whether the immunity hearing can be merged with the trial or considered after trial, and if after trial, whether the judge or the jury should decide whether to grant immunity.
These are extremely important issues that should be considered and resolved before trial to avoid a lot of grief later.
If no action is taken, we can only sit back and watch a slow-motion train wreck.
Finally, I want everyone to know that I firmly believe that the defense does not want to have an immunity hearing because they have no defense and the defendant would be crucified on cross examination exposing him to be the liar that he is. They obviously do not want to admit this, so they allowed the court to strike the hearing without formally and publicly waiving it. I doubt that we will hear more from the defense about this issue, since they want it to disappear.
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Professor,
I was reading another post where you referred to his coons or punks and wanted to share a thought or opinion. This is why i think he did say punks and why. His Arab former co worker commented that he believed that he believed that he would go after anyone he saw as weak because of his experience wi GZ. He said he only picked on those he saw as weak and never picked on the military guys.
I think when he said punk he meant it like he’s a punk as in weak like a lot of people use that term to mean. He saw a kid he thought was a punk/weak and wanted to become a hero of the neighborhood by targeted someone he perceived as a punk or weak.
I have always felt this was premeditated. For several reasons just wanted to share that reason.
Thank you,
Brandi
You make a good point. I’ve always wondered whether GZ really used the word, “coon.” It seems archaic to me; do young people still use it, even in the south?
On the issue of strong and weak people, I’ve wondered whether GZ worked out regularly. He had been a bouncer and aspirations of working in law enforcement. I’d like to know whether he worked out, at a gym or at home with weights.
I haven’t personally heard it used by anyone unless they where referring to a raccoon. I’ve only heard it on movies. I believe he knew TM was younger weighed less and running from him I think he thought here is an opportunity. I wonder if Judge Lester was thinking the same when he called him an opportunist.
It seems as though I heard a reference somewhere to a local gang that calls itself “goons.” Anyone else heard that?
Lurker, yes, from the discredited witness Joe Oliver. He said it and got called out for that suggestion, as well as for what he claimed his daughter said was a term of endearment…. a term of endearment used after the expletive Fucking…. goon… What every young woman wants to be called by their friends.
The evidence should not be based on past media rants by the strange supporters who inserted themselves in the media. Unless the jurors have no hearing ability, they should be able to decide on the evidence of the 911 recording, if it makes it into evidence.
“Coon” is a term that racist people use no matter what their age is, and I do believe fogen is racist. Fogen has a problem with young Black males and this is evidenced in his history of constantly calling in on them and the murder of Trayvon Martin. Whatever he said, it was derogatory and meant to portray Trayvon in a negative manner.
i have certainly heard the word used by my contemporaries (i’m 48) while visiting family in the south. sadly, this was my own kin folk. i try to visit as little as possible. it is used. if parents use the word around the home, their offspring are likely to follow. hate, as we all know, is a learned behavior.
This is why I know he did not say “goons”: I listened.
Brandi…….
The vowel sound is unmistakable…….. oo as in pool.
I personally hear a “k” sound before that vowel sound.
@Tzar
This is why I know he did not say “goons”: I listened
Agreed!
The word is used, especially in the south.
diary says:
yup, have heard it with my own ears in the south and here in california when southern family members call or visit.
Tzar says:
March 11, 2013 at 11:39 am
This is why I know he did not say “goons”: I listened.
____________________________________
^5
FDLE interviewed some sergeant who specialises in gangs in the area and he stated there is a local gang called the Goons. So that is not only from Joe Oliver.
So saying effing goons would mean “effing gangbanger” ie yet another criminal.
But I am not saying what he said, I had trouble hearing 3/4 of what everyone says they heard.
(I also have trouble writing gangbanger, which I know you Americans use as a term for “member of a gang”, because here in Australia a gangbanger is a participant in a gang bang, which is a group rape. And we all supposedly speak the same language).
Coons? we have a brand of very nice cheddar cheese here called Coon, and there was a suggestion a few decades ago that the name should be changed because it is an offensive word. Commonsense prevailed. The cheese is named after Edward Coon, who invented the speedy method by which it is made. The offensive word comes from racoon.
Joe Oliver may get the chance to argue his opinion (NOT!) at trial! Watcha bet someone’s phone had a tap on it after MOM got permission for his client to talk to Joe again.
joe oliver is one pathetic excuse for a human being. i believe he was attempting to resurrect his failed career in broadcasting while acting as a member in questionable standing at ‘rent a black friend enterprises’. i have been aware of this character for far longer than most.
oliver was once a tv journalist in my neck of the woods and lost a major libel case (http://articles.latimes.com/1989-12-27/entertainment/ca-1204_1_big-sisters). how he went on to CNN after that is a major mystery for me, unless they were specifically seeking someone with skin pigment at the time. he was let go from CNN as well. like rene stutzman, the word ‘hack’ is too good for him. i think his motives were clear though – to get a foot back in the more lucrative broadcasting world.
The real ‘Twilight Zone’
Yes, Molly. That word is still used in the South. It’s a derogatory word, like its famous counterpart, used to remind the user of the worthlessness of his or her target. Once in this particular mindset, all bets are off regarding civility. Not shouted from the rooftops, but still used in a herd-like situation.
The short version history of “coon.” First applied to raccoon hunting when the dogs were brought out to tree a raccoon that was then shot and taken home, used for food and fur.
After the Civil War, it was applied to chasing Black men, and/or using dogs to locate Black men, who ran to get away from White men intending them harm.
Even after the state accepted “punks,” it sounded to me and most of the common sense world like coons. If this is played at trial, jurors will hear the unvarnished truth. The state doesn’t need to belabor this point.
Absolutely…..can’t make it look like it’s “..pick on PhatoldFogenPhoole time now can we !!
I hadn’t thought of it that way. From his angry tone on the NEN call, I always thought he meant it as in ‘young hoodlums’ – which he should know all about, since his old My Space page indicates that he was one of them.
I have most often heard someone calling another a punk because they ran from a fight or was scared to fight. He may have called him that because he was running and hiding from him. I think the Arab guy kind of makes it seem likely.
Occam much?
Tzar, you are letting your razor wit show!
@Xena
To add to what you said, “coon hunting” became slang for lynching.
@Dan Q. Smith
You’re correct. The word “picnic” has the same roots also. As Billy Holiday wrote, “Strange Fruit.”
“The word “picnic” has the same roots also.”
It would seem that reputable sources disagree
http://www.snopes.com/language/offense/picnic.asp
http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/news/jimcrow/question/jan04.htm
France was famous for guillotining, not lynching, and even then, mostly of whites, and for reasons of class and not race.
unitron
@onlyiamunitron. I already responded to you about the Snope’s rendering. They talked about the origination of the word in France — not how it became known and what it stood for in parts of America after the civil war.
That was actually my first version of the post, which appeared to have disappeared.
I figured out later, after re-posting, that it was probably trapped in moderation because of containing more than one link.
I guess it stayed there during the professor’s computer problems.
But that still doesn’t make anyone and everyone who uses the word picnic a member of the KKK.
I grew up in the South in the ’50s and ’60s and certainly heard my share of racist talk, but never heard “picnic” used to refer to lynching parties or anything else other than the original meaning.
unitron
And if you asked a biker if he was going to church,,,,,and he replied “yes”……would that make him a christian or a believer?
Going to “church” in the biker culture, is to attend the weekly club meetings……
Words, and their usage change over time and amongst cultures.
If a Brit asked you for a fag…….your response would be?
If not we would all still be speaking the Kings English.
“If a Brit asked you for a fag…….your response would be?”
Tell ‘em sure, if they can smoke a menthol.
But the meaning or meanings a word might acquire later on does not retroactively change its origin.
So Xena’s assertion about the roots of the word “picnic” remain incorrect, regardless of how the word might have been used a century or more after it first appeared in France.
unitron
What a tool….my other post got lost. The only one that did. A bold faced liar.
Apologies if this is a duplicate, but it seems to have vanished enroute the first time.
“The word “picnic” has the same roots also.”
Reputable sources appear to disagree
http://www.snopes.com/language/offense/picnic.asp
and I just realized that the link to the second source may have thrown the first time around into the moderation queue.
unitron
@onlyiamunitron. Just checked the link to Snopes that you provided. What Snopes did was give the history of the word “picnic” deriving from a French word. Well, “raccoon” shortened to “coon” did not have an original meaning as a racial slur either.
For some today, “coon” is just a raccoon. For others, it’s a racial slur. For some today, “picnic” is a meal prepared to be eaten outdoors. For others, it’s a reminder of events of “coon hunting” and lynching.
I heard about the word “picnic” as a little girl, long before computers, the internet and email. Given — the knowledge of lynchings being a “picnic” was pretty much unknown in the North. I can understand a society that wants to use that word without it carrying a history of racial violence. What is more common to hear today is “cook-out.”
Being attached to lynchiing parties by some people in some areas a century or two later is not the same as not existing until being derived from “pick a nigger”.
Although I can see where that attachment could spoil the word for some.
unitron
Imagine what his take on the term BBQ is.
So your decision of the word heard on the 911 ‘F’n……..’s” is based not on what you hear, but based on your opinion of what choice of word would be more likely based on adding in assumptions?
You raise a good question. Some might go so far as to enhance your argument by adding opinions that this defendant is a good church going man, with a soft personality, the ‘kindest man ever’ (the Osterman’s, with noble ideals (the Ostermans), he would never swear in front of a woman (the Osterman’s), etc. Based on these opinions, you could assume he would never say the F’ing word either.
Could work a path using this logic, all the way back to he’s ‘innocent’ and don’t need a trial,based on hearsay, assumptions and personal beliefs.
BTW, if he believed punks = weak, then why did he need to carry a gun, a hidden loaded semi-automatic gun, a hidden loaded gun with no safety strap on the holster, a hidden loaded gun with no safety mechanism to interfere with a heat of the moment decisionloaded with hollow tips that are designed to stop (kill) and to do as much internal injury and pain as possible when it enters the body?
@ay2z Thank you! I was beginning to feel like I was in the twilight zone. whew!!!
No it’s based on what he admitted to saying and what the prosecutor put in the capias the recording sounds like garbage. He carried the gun because he intended on killing the person he assumed was suspicious person up to no good. He got hit when he approached the poor kid gun drawn. Unless you where there that night you like me and many others are assuming. I just am not assuming based on prejudice like many like you are.
Please excuse me for the last sentence totally unfair.
Tee hee hee
so because George said so (Since Serino got it from George)
George Said
The witnesses and the forensics were there
I’ve listened to the tape and could not say definitely what that expletive was. I didn’t hear “coons”. I don’t think it really matters. In my opinion, his racism is established by the fact that he has never offered any reason that he found Trayvon suspicious. Nothing that he said he saw Trayvon doing could by any stretch of the imagination indicate criminal activity or intent. If the police had come earlier in response to his call, they would not have been able to stop and question Trayvon.
So he found Trayvon suspicious because he was a young black man.
Sorry gang…..I have a very good audio system and it’s “coons” no way around it.
That’ll never do
I did not hear the word “punks,” and neither did Officer Serino.
To ay2z sorry for different thought.Interview with Jahvaris Fulton TM brother.Found it on global grind but it was on CNN april 14 2012 with Sunny Hostin. I replied on last post hope this helps.
Why would he carry around a concealed semi-automatic loaded gun without a safety mechanism to use against “punks?” Because he’s a “punk” himself, and this is what “punks” do.
Even FogenHitler’s bought friend Joe Oliver admitted that it sounded like coons but he tried to play it off and said it sounded like “goons” LOL
awww, c’mon jun, it’s a term of affection! i ask all my friend to call me effin’ goon, don’t you?
(see my above statements about oliver – he was a local newscaster for me in the late 80s before he got hit with a libel suit and lost. i did not think it possible to think less of him, but he exceeded expectations this year. google his name, sacramento and libel.)
I’ve been trying for years to get all my friends, White, Black, Asian, Hispanic, Alien, whatever to call me “DatNiggy” Seems like a lost cause…..Oh….that nickname was taken…..Never Mind !!
rats racer! i guess if we can’t even get our friends to call us what we wish, we’re just a couple of luh-ooze-hurs. speaking of which – i did notice a spelling error in one of your posts today. i’ve been meaning to discuss this with you ad nauseum …
racerrodig – I would really, really, really, like to give Fogen the benefit of the doubt and leave race out of the case. Ultimately, I don’t think it matters because there’s still the issue of taking a gun to a fist fight, so to speak . . . I’ve listened to that damn recording 100 times and it sure sounds like coon to me too. Even with a bad recording I see no way to turn a puh sound into a koo. I’ve tried and tried to let that be and most of the time I even ignore it, but there it is.
I hear and understand 100%. But even as a 57 year old white male, I am beyond incensed that he used that word to the dispatcher at all. I doubt the state will make issue of it however.
My biggest thought is that he was setting Trayvon up the entire time for no reason……..that’s hatred.
Thanks, pat, that was kind of you. Will look for the interview.
@racer, I don’t have any sound equipment but, I heard him say E’fing *COONS* and you are right, there is no way around it because that is exactly what he said!
Well if chasing a kid running away from you because they are scared of you, and you do it with a car and a gun, while yelling “fucking coons” is a sign of affection, I do not need any affection from that camp of people LMAO
There is no juror that will believe he is a polite churchgoing mild mannered boy.
That NEN call is, at a minimum, a frustrated person full of rage and resentment. The a-hole comments, effing comments, and general upset tone in the call (over nothing I might add).
I had thought that his call could give good “state of mind” evidence. If I heard that call and found out the person that ran from him was dead, I would surely think the person that called killed him. It is obvious he has a lot of venom for that individual and was trying to escape.
I was willing to believe he said “punks” until I listened to it closely. Sounded like “coons” to me and that is why I said it.
Yes, the expression is dated, but so is “hommie.”
He uses dated expressions.
I wonder why the prosecutor said he said punks then. I thought it had been determined.
brandi – the prosecution stated ‘punks’ because that is what the defendant admitted to saying and for the purpose of issuing the capeas, it was damning enough when combined with the vulgar adjective preceding the word. if they have evidence to the contrary (and they may well) there is nothing that would prevent them from presenting such in court.
to bring this down to a more personal level, if you are pulled over for speeding, say doing 85 in a 55 mph zone, the officer routinely asks a variation of ‘how fast do you think you were going?’ knowing full well that they have you clocked at 85. the driver usually tries to mitigate the circumstances my saying something like ‘oh, i might have been going 70.’ BAM! you have just admitted to breaking the speed limit and the officer will write down what you have just confessed.
(helpful hint: this is why i always smile sweetly and say ‘why officer, i believe i was going the speed limit.’ more often than not, i receive a mere warning. i will also point out that i have not been pulled over for anything since 1985 in in my mid 20s.)
It sounded like “coons” to me too.
It’s “coons” sad to say….
Thanks fauxmccoy the capias is not set in stone.
Professor,
I respect that you are one of the few to call it what it is for him and his supporters racism.
I think the prosecutor used that term because it was accepted by at least one voice professional that she plans to call as a witness. This same voice expert says that the screams for helps are 95 percent not GZ’s. The prosecutor’s use of the word “punks” in the affidavit, IMO, was to appease any complaints of racism. She publicly accepted his opinion just like she accepts his opinion of the owner of the screams.
F***ng anything at that point proved that GZ formed an opinion of Trayvon prior to his going after the boy. Joined with “these a**holes, they always get away,” “sh**, he’s running,” and “the suspect” he demonstrates a depraved mind. He was mad as hell about the “recent break-ins” and wasn’t going to take it anymore!
Exactly Diary.
It would be a stretch to make it punks. But whether coons (meaning black people) or Goons (meaning gang members), in either case, he’s profiling. And the more damning piece is the “effing —– they always get away.”
Just struck me today that since there were two parties to the recorded conversation–George and the dispatcher–that this gets in whether George tesitifies or not. And I would imagine that BDLR can ask the dispatcher questions such as why he thought George was following (or asked him that question), why he advised him not to (not helpful to police to have untrained people getting in the way, etc), maybe even his impression of how George seemed (agitated, anxious, etc).
As I am seeing things right now, I am beginning to see the prosecution putting together a scenario as if there was never any story at all from George. Simply following the evidence trail of what is known without his claims about what happened. George followed, drew his gun (possibly when a click is heard on the NEN tape) confronted, scuffled, shot. Real clean.
When you clear your head of all that George claimed, things start to look different. And without George’s testimony, they never happened.
I listened with very good headphones, repeatedly, had my son (adult) listen and we both feel strongly the word was “coons”. The words mOOn and bUNk sound entirely different, as do coons and punks.
This may sound strange but I think he said goon not coon. Why do I say this? In Miami we refer to guys that don’t care about anything as goons, these guys are mostly killers and are into really bad crimes. This is why I think he said goon, its not a term of endearment like some Oliver wanted the world to believe. If a person is called a goon he is to be considered extremely dangerous & lack any self control or morals.
“He uses dated expressions.” — Frederick Leatherman
Perhaps because that’s what he heard growing up at home with Pops.
This is why I think he said coons, I listened
Tzar,
I agree he gz has proven himself to be a liar without a doubt. I thought since the prosecutor put punk in the capias it was determined. I don’t doubt he is racist I saw the 911 records and heard his co workers statement. I believe that this did not just happen because trayvon hit him for following him bs to me. I think gz had every intention to kill him when he left the truck. Look at his over exaggeration of the break ins and not informing anyone that an arrest had been made.
I don’t care what the prosecutor may or may not have determined because I listened and I know what I heard.
There is no evidence that Trayvon hit his killer. Only his killer said Trayvon hit him. the forensics support that Trayvon never got his hands on his killer.
That is good in theory – I suppose, but the reality of it just is not so.
I was actually going to give much more rise to the theory of the word being goon because of the merging sounds of fuckinGoon – so that was what I was ready to hear when I listened, thinking for certain that would be what I heard because of the way the sounds would merge and because I had already now made myself hear it in my head.
However, when I listened, I VERY clearly heard fucking coon. I did not have to listen again, it was clear as a bell the very first time. As someone who has listened to audio for a living for the last almost 20 years, I believe my ears and I know what I heard.
Like I said, in theory, your story makes sense, but when you actually listen, there is nothing, absolutely NOTHING that even remotely sounds like punks.
Again, I could understand goon/coon – similar sounds, especially with a word ending in ING in front of it – but there is NO way to get punk out of it. None. There is nothing in there that even remotely resembles punk. There is no p sound from the merging of KINGOON sounds, there is no uh sound like you would hear in pUHnk and there is no oo sound (like coon or goon) in punk.
After 20 years, I trust my ears.
Tzar,
Him approaching him gun drawn i made that point already.
P.S. And although I said I did not have to listen again, what I mean is often when you are not sure of a word you listen to it again and again until it becomes clear (though sometimes it doesn’t). In this case, it was clear from the first listen.
I am not saying that I ONLY listened to it once. I have listened to it over and over trying my hardest to hear something else, but coon is clear as day.
Now as far as “No it’s based on what he admitted to saying…,” I’m not EVEN going to go there.
I don’t know if coons is archaic or not. However, I believe racism is archaic, as is assuming someone looks suspicious because they are walking leisurely in the rain wearing a hoodie and they “look” like all the other “assholes” that always get away.
no idea what you are talking about
@Tzar
Could you check the music room when you get a chance, thanks.
ok
I actually think he said punks too. I think Fogen’s motivation was more self serving and not entirely racial, in that he wanted to be seen as some vigilante hero so he can earn some brownie points with the local authorities. But he is a coward and a punk in the same sense that he would only attempt to detain someone he thought was weaker and younger. He wouldn’t have dared to detain someone physically larger that he knows would whoop his tail, even if he had that gun. But the tables were turned on him, he got his butt whooped and took the cowardly way out, by shooting first (can’t really say he thought later, because he is a complete moron without this fundamental ability). just as his former co worker stated. He is a bully who loves to brag about his “tall tales”, plain and simple. But this time he has killed someone, and he will pay his debts.
Rnewton,
I pray he does pay for this because all this money this guy is raising it seems as if he has many like minded fools and if he walks it will be open season on our kids and that scares me to death as a mom
Have you listened to the recording of the NEN call?
Why not base your decision on what you hear, instead of what you think?
I have 4 computers and all have hi-tech speaker systems attached. He said “coons’ as much as I despise typing that word. Sorry, that’s what he said. Denying that is as bad as believing “datniggyTB” is actually an old high school nickname because of all his black friends and weight.
I call ‘em like I see ‘em.
rnewton32, BKC, this is not a game about what Fogen could have said based on hobby psychology. Although we may not be that far apart on that.
This is plain and simply about what we hear or as Rachael has suggested above about phonemes. A /p/ and a /k/ are simply different sounds. Just as no matter how you want to transcribe it: [kuːn] is different from [pŭngk]
In this context it is not about what we see or think, but about what we hear.
That’s why I consider this the most silly thing I have ever seen.
On the other hand if you don’t hear it, I guess we can live with that.
Ok usually that work let’s see what this code turns out visually: ŭ
I’ve seen I could have saved my breath.
Ok, WordPress does not accept the html code for phonetic symbols.
But even if he ‘meant’ to say punks or he was referring to punks but just happened to use the word coon…..why would he lie? It seems easier to say I said coons but i was using it to mean something like a punk but forget didn’t say that.
https://soundcloud.com/musicpromotony/zimmernuts-fogenhats-the
Listen for yourself
I isolated it and it sounds like coons to me
either or, both punks and coons are not endearing terms and are terms used when someone feels the other is trash
Yes it does sound like coon
@Brandi Kansas City said:
I am sorry and mean no offence, but I have to vehemently disagree. I absolutely do not believe that GZ meant “weak” or “sissy” when referring to Trayvon as a “punk” even if after some research I have found that in the US can unusually be used in that sense.(Please note I go with punks because our resident sound expert, “whonoze”, has deemed it to be so even though I do still feel I hear “coon” most of the time and in any case for the sake of the case in which the prosecution has accepted “punk” also as well as this post, “punk” it must be.
When interpreting the word “punk” with the rest of GZ’s words and actions in respect of Trayvon, it is absolutely clear GZ used “punk” in the more usual sense, a sense or meaning described by the following dictionaries I have consulted, only a very few of which included “weak” as one of the definitions, and the very few that did, always place it lower down in the hierarchy of definitions.
The usual meaning of “punk” as an insult is that of a petty criminal, thug, or even gangster (I have also checked the Spanish/English dictionaries which concur with English dictionaries and GZ’s mother tongue is by his own words Spanish):
MACMILLAN:
MERRIAM WEBSTER:
OXFORD DICTIONARY:
OXFORD ADVANCED AMERICAN DICTIONARY
CAMBRIDGE DICTIONARY:
(as an aside, the Cambridge example of usage makes me wonder which of the actors is actually the “punk”!!!)
AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY
THE FREE DICTIONARY
COLLINS ENGLISH-SPANISH DICTIONARY
WIKIPEDIA – ESPAÑOL
And GZ is not racist… my arse!
Errata, the “Note” at the end of the Wikipedia Español entry is not a quote from WP but my own addition.
IIRC, Whonoze said the defendant said “coons.”
Whoooooops… and all this time I was convinced he was saying it was “punks” and I never disputed it not to contrary him!
@gbrbsb
If you go to
http://www.youtube.com/user/Teeslaw/videos?view=0
Go to video “What Did GZ say?
You will see the break down.
To be fair, I’ve heard the term colloquially used as “feeling punky” as in starting to feel sick, but 99% of the time I’ve heard punk used it’s always as above – a thug, usually a young one.
That’s basically what I am saying (after researching in all the big dics I could find) but also that when in doubt over a meaning you have to look at context and considering everything else GZ was saying about his “suspect”, “weak” or “sissy” IMO does not fit at all.
You did a great job, gbrbsb! I’m impressed!
Thank you two sides…
Actually punks is a word to mean someone is weaker than you as well, as that is the modern usage of the term
For example, “punk ass bitch”, means the person is a wimp and is weaker than you in their opinion
And considering the context of the incident, FogenHitler called Trayvon a “fucking punk/coon” while chasing him on foot while Trayvon was trying to get away from him, and then in a couple minutes, Trayvon is killed by the defendant, it is safe to say the term was used in the context that “the defendant felt that Trayvon was a weak sissy lilly boy and trash”
Also considering Fogen is a career criminal, punk is the same as “bitch” in prison slang
I am thinking the dictionary has not updated their definitions to modern usage
good work, grsbsb, strictly I can train myself to vaguely hear it as punk, as in a picture puzzle, where you can change the image if you concentrate on it. But only as a response to the suggestion, in other words I have to keep the word in mind. And the coon is clearly more dominant for me.
In any case in this context Serino did a good job, no more experts needed, it’s incriminating enough in context. At this point Fogen forgot he could have said: I don’t remember.
I am not sure how a expert would handle the under the breath quality and strictly I have no idea to what extend this hinders distinct articulations.
I am curious what do you hear, if you follow Jun’s link and listen to it a couple of times?
@gbrbsb – hmmm…seems each one of those definitions fits GZs character to a T…considering what we know of his past.
@KittySP
My thoughts entirely.
So if GZ did say “punk” & not “coons”, which I am still half and half about albeit tending a bit more towards punk since re-watching Teeslaw’s YT video “What did GZ say” yesterday and after just now listening to LLMPapas video “Reasons why no SYG #8″ posted today, I don’t see how that leaves GZ any less effectively racist because he is clearly profiling Trayvon as a young criminal and thug, and with his known history, as a young black criminal and thug.
Jun,
I agree. That is how the word punk is used nowadays. I think it does fit with what is going down.
Interesting, how easy it is to stir a conversation absolutely off topic.
leander22 says:
March 11, 2013 at 6:20 pm “That’s why I consider this the most silly thing I have ever seen”
Wow, that is hilarious! I’ve never heard anyone so damned determined to convince himself of an obvious lie! LOL I mean he records his OWN voice to match the way he wants it to match! but the more he goes over it, the more it sounds like coons! how embarrassing! LOL
shannon, I do not have any idea about the techniques involved in sound software available today, I have to admit. A good friend works in movie sound, I should ask him. Is Diwataman a sound engineer, does he know what exactly the software visualizes? He does not tell us. He does not even tell us, what software he uses, so we can check for ourselves. How good is it in registering distinct phonemes. In other words would it be able to distinguish g and c and p? I cannot imagine if it is not combined with some type of voice recognition software.
You can probably produce vastly different patterns depending on the way you articulate it. It’s no doubt under his breath. Strictly I never did more phonetics than were absolutely compulsory. So I am not even close to something like an expert.
In any case, it does not matter what people hear or do not hear. As others have said, what matters is that this Fucking take whatever you prefer, combined with theyalways get away, shows that he assumes something about Trayvon Martin’s identity which is plainly wrong. And that is really all we need to know. No matter what slur he uses in talking about him.
they = coons, goons, punks
always get way.
One final note on Serino, or more precisely the interview were he confronts Fogen with the NEN call.
I realized I was wrong, when I listened to it again. Serino does not say: That is not what he says, but he says that is not who he was, or something similar. In other words all that does matter to him is Fogen’s “identification” of Trayvon with the burglars or goons. And as others he have written eloquently, I think it is all that should matter to us.
What a series of responses.
“others he have written” – no idea why the “re” has disappeared but “he” should be “here”.
It sounds like he said coons to me when you isolate the recording to that section but either way, calling someone a punk, you obviously think less of them and that they are weaker, especially if you say it while chasing the other person with a gun
I think your right jun…. I did go back and listen to it. The word punk seems to fit his bullying personality according to th
You can’t say he said ‘punks’ because of how we think he perceived trayvon. He said COONS and that’s that… He does not get the benefit of doubt here.
Hi Brandi,
I too believe this was premeditated. On the other hand, Fogen, his family, and supporters are virulent racists. I don’t believe it’s complicated. I believe he said, “coons.” I hear it as clear as day. He said it under his breath because it’s a slur. “Coons” doesn’t sound anything like “punks.” I believe strongly that he said, “coons.” I wish for the sake of Trayvon’s memory that the truth about this will be known and told, as distasteful and hard to imagine as it may be.
Respectfully,
Dan
Danny
Hi Dan,
I hope the whole truth does come out and the smear this kids reputation campaign stops. I did listen again and it does sound more like coon than punks
IMO, the defense never took the time or cared to examine all the evidence in depth until recently because of the Pro-Bono situation and “thinking” he would be granted a continuance. NOW O’Mara is under the gun (no pun) due to the denial of a continuance and he finally realizes that there is overwhelming evidence of guilt and that is the reason for dodging/cancelling the immunity hearing.
Or he has been reading this blog it is pretty popular
@SpecialladyT – did you see my message to you in the last blog entry?
Thank you for these insights and key explanations. Much to digest now, amid your “they want it to disappear” bottom line, which makes total sense.
This is another nail in the coffin for me I recognized it the first time I heard the NE call. Then later when he said he reached in his pocket and no phone that’s when he was hit by trayvon. I think he pulled his gun out on him from his pocket. I don’t believe it was holstered in the front of his pants. I’m not a man but I can’t think of any man that would put a cheap gun without a safety in the front of his pants pointed at his you know what…just saying doesn’t make sense
I don’t know about the ‘cocking’ sound, but I seem to recall that in one of his statements he said he took out his phone, and in the others that he just reached for it in his pocket. When he demonstrated doing so, he always went for his right pocket, which seemed odd to me, since he’s left handed.
I also noticed recently, when I was listening to a YouTube compilation from last year, that told a detective that I think must have been Singleton, that he ‘walked through the dog walk’, which is the term he and most of the other residents seem to use to refer to the sidewalk that runs behnd the houses, where Trayvon wound up being killed. In his other statements, he says he walked along the ‘cut-through’ to the ‘T’.
I believe he has said it was in his pocket in one interview and was not in another. Just doesn’t seem like a detail that would change if it was true. I wonder if they could have done some kind of forensics to determine if the gun was in fact in his pocket.
Which hand does he use to make the ‘phone’ gesture? That’s the likely pocket side.
Forensics? He carried his phone with him in the past, could have had it in pockets of jackets, so nothing new there. Hard to find anything that would mean he put the phone in his pocket at that particular moment, forensics might have to be a form of magic. Unless, the phone was damaged and could be linked to damage inside the pocket, or pieces found broken. Didn’t likely happen that way.
Forensics to find out if the gun was in his pocket.
It’s not that far fetched if an insurance company can chemical
Test a surface to see if cash was there why not a gun..
Elcymoo said,
He had his gun in a holster inside his waistband behind and to the side of his right hip.
Extremely unlikely that he would have kept his phone in his right rear pocket.
He is left handed but lefties learn to shoot right handed because most semiautomatics eject spent shell casings to the right and they do not want to get hit in the face.
When he demonstrated reaching for his phone during the video walk-through reenactment it looked like he was reaching for his gun.
LLMPapa provides a little demo of the shell casing path.
I expect the gps data to show that they were never in proximity at the T and with that, any stories about what the killer reached for while at the T will become moot.
I’m left handed but always put my keys and phone in my right pocket but yet when I want them for some reason I reach in my left hand pocket.I think this is a red herring.But I like you noticed the dog walk thing as well.I’m wondering if fogen was given his phone back when he was free to go home.If so where did BDLR get the information about fogen sending a vile text message about TM ‘S Father.Do they even have his old phone now God I must go back and reread the evidence.Imo Shelly was with him that night she could have dropped him off at the other end of the dog walk and he slithered up and Trayvon started running back up the dog walk.I don’t think we’ll ever know exactly what happened unless they have the gps . all I want is for people 100 times smarter than me to get this man in jail where he belongs.I just know I don’t need to be a frigging genus to figure out fogen’s story is a bunch of BS
You know, once a guy has followed you in a car, and then followed you on foot, and then he reaches into his pocket — any pocket, with either hand — you KNOW you’re under threat of great bodily injury or death. If you do NOT know that by the time he reaches into his pocket, you (a) have never watched a single television show during prime time; and/or (b) you are inferentially illiterate; or (c) you immediately realize that the guy facing you is Afro-Peruvian and therefore is “up to no bad,” so you have nothing to fear.
Malisha….would you fear something you’ve never seen before?
Such as an Afro / Peruvian?
Again, how can this be a nail in the coffin when there’s not yet any evidence to link the sound with the gun used in the shooting? We haven’t heard this yet from the state, and if jurors are now expecting to hear it at trial and it isn’t what people have speculated, then what? Do they think the case is weaker because they assumed there was a nail in the coffin that doesn’t pan out?
It may be, it may not be, there’s a lot of both sides, so can’t be left to personal opinion. Some say you have to rack the gun, others say no.
It has been compared with the same type of gun by a law enforcement person. If they don’t use it I guess that’s a missed opportunity along with many misses including checking the dog poop container for blood.
Well, if it’s the sound of that gun, (the law enforcement person should be able to have tested Shellie’s gun itself), and they conclude it’s the sound of that gun and not the flashlight or other incidental noise, it would certainly support the gun being drawn in expectation of a confrontation that night.
George said
Tzar,
That comment was after I posted the u tube video of him cocking the gun. Gz confronting Trayvon gun drawn is the only scenario that ties everything together for me. Especially the terror in Trayvons voice. I’m not saying I’m right it’s my theory. I wasn’t there either.
The comment that I posted was after you wrote that Trayvon hit him
Tzar, about your comment about the phone in pocket not there story as ‘George said’, would that be a ‘fogenism’?
oh..oh yeah…yeah I like that
tha’t gonna get used a lot
Tzar, welcome to it, your post was the inspiration!
Professor,
Yes I agree it did look like he was pulling out a gun in his re enactment. I think it explains why Trayvon may have hit him because he approached him gun drawn and why he may have been seen on top of GZ holding his hand with the gun down. It just seems to put the pieces together
you keep saying Trayvon hit him but you admit that you were not there, so are you saying that because George said? but you’ve already said that you believe George to be a proven liar? and you also said that you don’t think it is good to make assumptions. So what are you basing this repeated claim that Trayvon hit him?
Tzar,
I know there wasnt any DNA on his hands so no I am not saying for sure he hit him. What I am saying is if he did hit him he had the right to defend himself. Not only if the gun was drawn but because what he admits on the call being a stranger to this kid and chasing him in the dark.
Please tell me how you think gz got the minor injuries.
Process of elimination. With none of GZ’s blood nor DNA on Trayvon’s hands/fingernails, those injuries were not inflicted by Trayvon.
The face scratches were already scalped as we see in the photos taken at the police station. The nose — probably recoil from the gun since GZ shot using only one hand. The head boo-boo’s — the EMTs reported that the blood had already dried on GZ’s head, indicating they were not fresh injuries and actually, the blood may not have come from the wound source.
Brandi, please take the hint from Tsar before he starts really stalking you on this issue. Trayvon had absolutely no GZ DNA or blood on his hands, arms or sleeves. Therefore he could not have hit him at all unless he was wearing gloves, none of which were found at the scene.
Trayvon would have been entitled to stand his ground and hit him, but the evidence says he did NOT, so…
He MAY have been on top holding down the gun hand, but there’s no evidence for that.
On DeeDee’s evidence, GZ did not approach Trayvon with the gun drawn. He drew it later.
Aussie and Tzar,
I understand what you are saying. Please understand me I live in a SYG state, i own a home in the same kind of neighborhood minus the crime, my son will be 17 in July, he is the only black boy in the neighborhood, and he also wants to join the navy and fly with the blue angels just like Trayvon.
So maybe trying to make sense out of this may seem silly to you Tzar but this case bugs the heck out of me I don’t know if I should only allow my son to leave the house with a tuxedo or if some weirdo could be molestor is chasing him can he defend himself.
@Tzar
Work it!
I can only tell you how he did not get them
Brandi says:
“Trayvon may have hit him because he approached him gun drawn and why he may have been seen on top of GZ holding his hand with the gun down.”
I do not agree.
Common sense tells me that the last thing one would do is hit a guy who approaches with his gun drawn and common sense tells me that that would be especially true of a teenager who had moments before fled in fear.
How can one reasonably believe that Trayvon Martin suddenly underwent a psychological turn around of that magnitude?
It is ludicrous.
To that endeavor it will help to keep the evidence in mind and not simply what the killer said. He typically does not make much sense himself.
With all due respect, it will only seem silly to me, if you try to do so using the word of the killer without consideration of the evidence.
So I would renew my question of upon what do you base the claim that Trayvon hit him? Do you believe Trayvon could hit him without leaving any forensics “prints”? Do you believe Trayvon hit him and then instead of running jumped on top of him without leaving any forensic “prints”? Do you believe Trayvon ran from him only to hide behind an invisible bush and to reveal his ambush before hitting him?
Brandi- except that there was no DNA found in Trayvon. He didn’t hold GZ at all.
Sent from my iPod
I think the gun was drawn but who would hit a person with a drawn gun? Not me and my grown ass….he tried to detain him then drew the gun.
@Xena, maybe the dried blood on his head, may be the animal blood that he reportedly had on him. there was so many LE officers who were willing to cover this murder up for Fogen and, I wouldn’t put anything past them even finding some animal some where to use it’s blood to smear on his head. even the blood from road kill would do in a pinch. which one of them may have been real good friends with a Vet, who may have had some blood from an animal in his/her office that they could get in order to put it on his head for the photos taken an the SPD. my motto is this, “TRUST NO ONE!”
@ladystclaire
GZ had animal blood on his sleeve, but more than likely the blood on his head was from Trayvon. Considering that Trayvon’s blood was also found on the bag of Skittles in his pocket, and that GZ frisked him, makes it reasonable to believe that GZ also smeared Trayvon’s blood on his head for the photo session with Jon.
Those head boo–boo’s, which I believe were acquired between Friday and Saturday, were already scalping as were the scratches on GZ’s face. After having his head cleaned by the EMT’s, it would only require picking at the scalps to get a trickle of blood for the photos at the police station. Why? Because with the EMT’s finding that the blood on GZ’s head was already dried, his boo-boo’s had stopped bleeding.
Considering the time of the photo session with Jon, there would not be enough time to obtain blood from another source.
As far as the non-human blood on the sleeve of GZ’s jacket, someone in R@TL is probably missing a dog.
Hi Brandi, you said earlier that Travon hit Fogen. Absolutely not. The forensics tell us that did not happen. No Fogen DNA on Trayvon’s hands/ nails. Did not happen.
I know they tested scrapings from underneath Martin’s fingernails, but did they test the fronts and backs of the hands themselves?
A punch wouldn’t necessarily have left the punchee’s DNA under the puncher’s fingernails.
unitron
Maybe no DNA found on hands but neither were there bruises on the knuckles. Can’t punch without hurting yourself as well.
Sent from my iPod
Three or more punches to a bleeding face PLUS three or more grasping of something (head, hair, ears, neck, pudgy cheeks, SOMETHING) to effectuate head slams onto concrete WHILE a victim lies on his back yelling “help me help me” will DEFINITELY result in SOME blood and DNA under the fingernails of the puncher/headslammer. To believe otherwise has something to do with immaculate conception or something…
Malisha- don’t you mean immaculate contamination?
Sent from my iPod
First of all, his pistol was holstered on the inside of waistband on his right butt cheek.
I read it was in the front
In listening only to the discrete sound as played above, it is convincing. However if you listen to the tape in it’s entirety, that clicking is followed by some additional sounds. My suggestion is that at that point George is playing with the flashlight he says he couldn’t turn on. Perhaps clicking it on, and then knocking it a few times when it didn’t come one. However–were there not two flashlights found at the scene–one of them south of the body, and weren’t George’s keys and another flashlight found by the t?
Yes, two flashlights. One,the “tactical” flashlight (DMS-6) south of Trayvon’s body, that fogen claimed was not working and was the reason he remained at RVC for intemittent time between the end of the NEN call and the alleged ambush by Trayvon. Serino informed him the flashlight was working.
The second (mini) flashlight on a ring with one Honda key(DMS-2) was found near the T. IIRC – that flashlight was found on.
These two circumstances have always bothered me in that I can’t find (in my own head) a workable solution to all of these devices.
I’ve got gun in hand, miniflash working in hand, tactical flash and cell in pockets – on the hunt. But then I have to account for the working flash at the T, when I don’t believe Trayvon was anywhere near the T. There’s the idea fogen planted it, based on the witness #13, but as much as I like any idea which shows more physical evidence for a conviction, Cutcher/friend and witness #18 don’t seem to have room in their accounts for this.
Since I’m firmly in the south to north debris field/altercation camp, I’m good with the placement of the tactical flashlight,where I believe the altercation took place. What I don’t understand is how that mimiflashlight got to the T, while being “on”, after the altercation, some 45-50 ft away.
Conversely, since I don’t believe a word out of fogen’s mouth, I don’t believe he just fell/dropped it there at the T for no reason, before an altercation that never happened there. He dropped his only working light, before going down a darkened path after one of these a-holes who always gets away? No, he didn’t. So, it bugs me… IJS
There’s one scenario I’ve been considering, and I’m very open to having it disputed, since I don’t really like it, myself.
What if fogen dropped the miniflashlight at the T, if he slipped and fell (and bumped his head?), as was the impression given by young Austin?
Nef05– I like dropping the keychain light and key, maybe without knowing or even realizing the light was on–perhaps as he went running after Trayvon. He likely had keys in hand when he left the truck, one hand on the phone. Maybe he thought he was putting them in his pocket and they dropped, or perhaps he was grabbing for either the gun or flashlight and dropped them in confusion.
I really am trying to think through the evidence without any preconceived notions from what George said happened. So far here, the evidence says that he hit two points along the dog-walk area, the “t” to the North and the point where the flashlight was found to the South.
Nef05, a thought on the flashlight/keyring at the T, is that as he came to the T, and who knows where he’d end up if he was not returning to the T via same route, a person could leave a lit or unlit flashlight keychain, at a spot he needed to return to, the correct T, to look for his car.
This way, he would be sure of having his key located with a quick sweep, support for his story, if it were planned to return the suspect via this route, to find the waiting cop, and ensure that the suspect wouldn’t end up with his car key, he did see the car afterall.
Just a thought, if this killer wanted to be extra safe with his vehicle key.
Do we know if the little flashlight was lit when it was found?
“Do we know if the little flashlight was lit when it was found?”
So far, those actually in a position to know say that it was.
unitron
Fogen wore the holster inside his pants on his right hip toward the back.
Professor, clearly the defense doesn’t want to risk an immunity hearing and will bank on a jury trial. But will they deviously try to roll in the immunity hearing at trial in order to cross the constitutional wires you mention above in order to cause a mistrial or an appeal in order to cause as long a delay as possible? Is it possible to pull this off or can Judge Nelson prevent this?
Yes, good question. Does Judge Nelson have the power to just say “no” to such MOM-driven alternatives and to insist the horse stay well in front of the cart … or that it be put out to pasture once and for all?
Yes, she could schedule a hearing to consider whether the immunity hearing can be merged with the trial or held after the trial.
I would do that if I were the judge.
As of noon today, there was no request on the docket for any immunity hearings within or post trial.
Thank goodness Nelson can do that. Does a motion have to be made by the defense or the prosecution, or can she simply schedule a hearing?
They’re not even gonna try a SYG hearing; they’re saying they want to do it this way or that way so they can come up with an excuse for not having it, blame it on the judge or on this or that but not admit that they couldn’t do it because it would flop so horribly that no trial would even be necessary; he would have cooked his own goose and basted it.
ha – ha – all my *in order tos* Sorry. Wrote that in a hurry and didn’t revise!
Thankyou for the heads up Prof.
Although unless I dreamt it ….nightmare…
Im remember clicking on a link to an intervew yesterday.
M Omara said there would be no SYG or self defence hearing.
That his client wanted to be judged by a jury of his peers.
An a aquittall by them would mean more to him than a dissmissal judge.
Mr Omara is of course lieing like a rug just as he did when he first said there WOULD BE A SYG Hearing.
An then it was not SYG but a traditinal self defence hearing they would ask for the court to dissmiss the criminal case against his client.
All along he knew any such hearing would NEVER happen.
Many here an at other sites said the same.
He was simply pimping for donations an saying things he knew would apeal to fogens raceist suppoters.
Therse no chance of fogen winning a SYG hearing.
He was never standing as the gps will prove .
He was moveing an always moveing in the same direction of his victim.
An when he caught up with an illegally attempted to detain a squirming screaming Child.
Whom wanted no part in the Scareydudes agenda.
Trayvon was within sight of his home an refuge for the previous few days.
Whilst fogen was no where near the apartment he an his Wife were sqautting in rent free nor was he within sight. of his truck wich was not his truck but the finance companys.
Even the gun he used to MURDER TRAYVON wasnt his..
He had no chance of immunity an he has no chance of aquittal in a criminal trial.
If the jurours are sensible an weigh up the evidence in a just an fair mannnner.
Then a rightous verdict of GUILTY is the only just verdict.
Back to the topic,
Thank you for another excellent, clear and well written article, Prof.
You are the first, don’t see any objective article based on what the law says over at the OS. Although the media analyst lawyer has informed two of the OS reporters, Weiner and Stutzman, that they might do well to look beyond O’Mara’s rhetoric from the last hearing and post hearing media blitz. Noexucses for repeating the MOM rhetoric without balancing their reports!
Two examples that they should get down to their local law library and spend a few hours. OR, better yet, shortcut their research by reading at http://frederickleatherman.com first.
To Dan Abrams:
To Jeff Weiner:
To Rene Stutzman:
Jeff Weiner’s post for that response (above)
MollyK says:
March 11, 2013 at 10:39 am
You make a good point. I’ve always wondered whether GZ really used the word, “coon.” It seems archaic to me; do young people still use it, even in the south?
@
You mean archaic like the word /slang…..Homie….
Ive listened to that whispered venting of hatred an first time I heard Fn Khoons second time as well.
I dont hear goons or punks I hear a specific archaic raceial slur.
Most racial slurs are archaic be it the n word or whatever.
People whom use thease derogatrive slurs have an archaic midset .
Back to the days of slavery an people of colour knowing there subservient role towards there betters.
colin says
excellent point colin. this is what i was getting at when i stated that hate is taught in the home throughout generations. the family that i visit when i go to the south use these exact words in front of me – i guess they assume that because my skin lacks pigment that i am in agreement. i find myself walking out of rooms where such discussions take place, starting a major argument among family is of no real benefit. the best i can do is demonstrate with my own words and actions that i find those words and jokes to be offensive.
have no doubts – those archaic words are used in homes everywhere.
And in movies, we know how they were some influence
How conveniently and quickly, the screenplay word ‘homie’ was dropped after the first interview. That the fogen first said Trayvon called him ‘homie’ seems to go to fogen’s mindset, how he was thinking of this ‘real suspicious guy’.
BTW, stupid question, what film was this?
oops, my mistake, homie wasn’t in the screenplay afterall, full credit to mr. fogen for that one!!
Fauxmccoy,
I agree I really never got the point that he couldn’t be racist because his great grand parent was black like he’s immune to it. I had a mixed kid with a black dad say to me your a N and N’s stink when I was a kid BTW I am also mixed but I never forgot that.
Exactly.
Maybe he said ‘coof’.
(he could be a closet Burns scholar, afterall
That’s it, must be! The world’s nicest man, must have said ‘coof’. Now that’s outdaded and not in common use, but it fits as closely as anything, (except coons).
LMAO — well, he’s no Rhodes scholar, so we could give Burns a tryout….
I do not understand why people are so intent on giving this POS a pass on what he said. They don’t even trust their own ears… SMFH!
Yup! But whatever, F’g Punks is enough, he’s not thinking nice of the stranger he decides falsely, as doing something wrong.
No way it sounds anything like ‘punks’ to me.
X 1,000,000
HELL NAW! SMDH @ “PUNKS” GTFOHWTBSASAP!
I never thought it was “punks”, when I first heard it I was convinced it was the “c” word but when I heard that the name of the local gang was “goons”, I wonder if it was that word. He did blame most of the problems on the local gang
The 1st time I heard the NEN call, I had several customers and friends in my shop. Almost all of us said “…did he just call that kid a coon to the dispatcher…..???” My wife was recording it in the house and we all listened at least 10 X…….he said “coons”
It’s something of a red herring. No matter word he used, he was identifying Trayvon with a distasteful element that always gets away, and determined not to allow that to happen.
Strangely, I have heard “coons” at times and I have heard “punks” at times. I cannot explain this. I do think that it is possible that the Fogenite apologist who “analyzes” the word “punks” has actually not used the two syllables from the NEN call at all, but has created his own little clip to “analyze.” But I consider it a real non-issue. Fogen displayed his malice, ill will, evil intent, and his depraved mind on the NEN call and then he reinforced it later. His buddy Frank Taaffe reinforced it again for him and he never interceded or corrected that impression or had his lawyers do so. He gave Singleton, as a reason he found Trayvon “suspicious,” that another young Black male had previously been “suspicious” but he had not caught that other young Black suspicious male. This is not rocket science.
@Malisha, you are clicking on all cylinders my friend! My sentiments exactly.
PS Just reading rest of the posts now an see many includeing Prof have already pointed out the same thing.
I listened to that recorded whisper an heard khoons.
When Serino Confronts him with it fogen does what he always does .
Caught in a lie or inconsistensy he lowers his voice till barey audble an whispers I dont know or dont remember.
Serrino stops the tape at the Fn khoons whisper an asks fogggen.
What was that you said?
foggen lowers his voice an says softly Fn punks……
Serrino replays listens stops eape an says.
That wasnt Fnpunk………….
Some have speculated that to mean he is telling fogen that .
Trayvon was no fnpunk.
I dont i m o he is telling him you are lieing that wasnt fn punk you said or whispered on the tape.
But no matter it was a good kill lets press on.
Next time check there sneakers before you blow one away as they tend to wear black as oppose to white ones your kill was wearing.
Sods law your a good guy just got turned around an made a mistake no biggie.
If Serrinos attatude of being casual was tactical to draw out more info.
An make fogen comfortable enough to do a reconstruction.
An talk an talk without requesting council then he was a genious.
If not then?Im still on the de fence about him at the momment.
Officer Singleton though obviously was not interested in buying what fogen was selling.
But she done her best to remain cordial with him.
I am still quite confused about Serino’s role in all this. Some of his actions suggest that he considered GZ a murderer and wanted him charged; others (in particular, the witness tampering) indicate that he was trying to get the case dropped without charges. Has his role been established?
MolllyK, have you listened to the video I posted upthread? Listen through to the end, that gives some insight because Serino spoke with him on the phone. (go to about 4:15 mins)
It’s Lawrence O’Donnell Very last word, Pressing Joe Oliver’.
Molly,
I agree especially with some of Baez’s statements. I don’t know what to think of Serino. But Natalie Jackson seems to like him so hopefully he is doing the right thing.
Brandi, Baez statements like ‘weak case’ for instance? It’s his ‘opinion’ from ‘early on’. Hey, he’s entitled, but his media appearances are self-serving. Baez won’t be taking the stand to give any opinion, sad to say.
>^..^< grabbing on.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wAVCJ-fqiMg/TnYaLftVJUI/AAAAAAAAF4k/_jid-Ds36MM/s1600/0000012b169bc0f0edf20caf007f000000000001.Hang-in-there.jpeg
YAHTC- Cute! Yes, like that! Still getting over a cold and trying to catch up with all the threads.
Sent from my iPod
Sorry you are sick. Get well soon , cielo!
Have you heard from kindheart since she told us she had the flu?
YAHTC~ Thank you. I am getting better. I’m at that stage where can I breathe, but I can’t TASTE anything! And I just bought 2 boxes of Girl Scout cookies! I hope Kindheart is alright. Haven’t heard from her or seallison, who was nursing some sick kitties. Weird weather is to blame for these bouts of colds and flus.
@ You all have thoughtful comments & cielo62
Kindheart’s been on HP knockin’ out with the snappy comebacks, she’s on quite a roll tonight!
Good news! I was starting to worry about her.
Still a bit queasy but back on solid food. I gotta say, she was seriously on her game last night!
Lady2soothe- thank you! I guess she’s getting over her flu, to be packing posts in style!
Sent from my iPod
As I just replied to Professor, she’s still a bit queasy but back on solid food, and seriously on her game last night!
Off topic, maybe, but today I’m reminded of a new word I learned here recently.
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/shill
yes, ‘shill’ is a perfectly lovely word. i was teased brutally in my teens for reading the dictionary for pleasure. it was time well spent and as a parent, i cannot tell you how satisfying it was to hear my 2 year old use the word ‘superfluous’ correctly in a sentence.
fauxmccoy, reading telephone books, don’t know why, but sending this song along for you
Fauxmccoy- I was teased for taking Latin in high school, but it sure helped my SAT scores!
Sent from my iPod
@ cielo — word nerds, unite!
(no one has ever played scrabble with me twice – there are disadvantages)
Faux McCoy~ Ego concedo!
Fauxmccoy,
Another dictionary reader here. I’ll be looking for a word and end up reading for hours. I’ve always been an avid reader.
i am so glad to know that i am not alone.
faux, here you go
hahahahaha — in all my years, it never occurred to me to look that up on youtube. i can see why the youngsters pestered my grandma with crank calls now asking if her husband was an old farmer that walked with a limp. she did not have a tv and the calls confused her for many years. (grandpa was a rancher and did have a stroke at a very young age which left him with a limp for life)
IMO, O’Mara doesn’t want an immunity hearing for several reasons, the main one being that GZ cannot testify. He is most likely to go bonkers on the witness stand during cross-examination. Still another reason is that O’Mara and West don’t want to put in unpaid time for an immunity hearing followed by unpaid time for trial.
Xena part of me thinks that alone is why against advice not to do so, Fogen may just end up on the stand. Can you imagine the outburst as his nonsense is slowly but steadily broken down on cross?
Imagine him on the stand getting ripped to shreds and every afternoon the Zidiots led by RZ jr telling us how O’ Mara & Fogen won every round.
He can’t take the stand on everything he MUST take the stand for.
Damn…..must suck to be FogenPhoole !!
I don’t know, Xena. You may be right.
But I think the killer is a coward. I think he has proven himself to be a coward, at least from February 26, 2012 to this day.
So I don’t think he’s “man enough” to take the stand and be publicly challenged and scrutinized, and he won’t insist on doing so.
And, of course, he’ll later blame everyone else for the “injustice” of his guilty verdict.
Groans- remember, though, GZ is a con man and smooth talker. He thought he could get Corey to drop the charges if he could just talk to her. His ego is the only thing bigger than his stomach. I see him taking the stand, hoping his magic tongue can get him out if this.
Sent from my iPod
Oops …. I think my reply was actually to rayvenwolf’s comment. Sorry for any confusion!
I’m coming out of “lurk mode” to suggest that perhaps the real reason for the “non” performance of the MOM team is not at all what has been brought out so far. Has anyone given any thought to the possibility that the true leadership on this team is not from MOM or fogen? I might think that with the background of the former “Judge Zimmerman” that he was actually steering the case in a direction that he knows will force either a mistrial or an mandatory overturn of the conviction. Using this tactic would be a smart move, for them, remember one thing, the longer it is before the defendant actually goes to trial (or prison) the less possibility that the momentum to convict remains high in the minds of prospective jurors. I would think that the whole goal is to keep “fogen” out of jail long enough to not only remain free, but possibly modify the conditions that were set in the bond proceedings by the former judge. This would allow a scenero where if all else fails “fogen” could make an escape to a location out of the reach of justice. Just a few things to encourage thought….
Crazy1946 — or perhaps more accurately Crazy-like-a-fox: Fascinating, and what a nightmare for MOM & West if Pops Fogen is still trying to run interference for his no-count son as a would-be criminal defense lawyer. (It gets even better, if speculating that Wolfinger — now out of a job — has time to strategize with Pops on how MOM should run the show on sonny boy’s behalf, what with Wolfie actually being a lawyer and all.)
To keep Fogen out of the slammer for as long as possible any way they can seems to be a given, and your theory on attempting to orchestrate a mistrial could be on target. As far as forcing a mandatory overturn on a conviction, perhaps the professor, at some point, could advise on possible scenarios for that. As for fleeing the country, that seems the least likely, but you never know …
And don’t forget Sis, the immigration lawyer, isn’t she? Maybe a reciprocal agreement is in the works to ship the fogen to Siberia east where he could teach English and Spanish, to the isolated communities. Maybe a grant from Cuba or Venezuela to support tourism promo to fund his stay.
TO- for GZ to flee the country, he’s going to have to lose lots of weight! Unless he can really afford two airline seats for his huge butt.
Sent from my iPod
Zimmerman senior was not a judge, but rather a magistrate, sort of a court gopher person who sets up minor stuff ahead of time so that it flows smoothly and doesn’t take up too much time in front of the judge (my own understanding, anyway). I am not impressed with the family’s legal sense beginning with no one apparently telling George to shut up and get counsel ASAP. In fact, wasn’t he still in active conversation with the police when daddy sent his letter to the OS explaining what a good boy he really is?
Now maybe dad doesn’t have much influence over R, jr, but his (and mom’s) stuff hasn’t exactly been the most helpful, either. Particularly his drunken (or angry, tweets.
lurker~ true. I had read here that Papa Zim has no legal taining. His background is in the military. BUT that doesn’t mean that he isn’t invested in pulling strings based on his “vast” knowledge of the legal process. No matter how you look at it, MOM lost control of the direction from Day One.
Well, he hasn’t been showing up in court lately.
Maybe he’s in Peru already …?
You talkin’ about more ‘skipping’??
Crazy1946…..This may really seem far fetched but……As fogen gains massive amounts of weight, do the bail bond folks loosen his ankle monitor so that it doesn’t cut off the circulation to his foot? Then, if he looses that same massive amount of weight (and because he doesn’t appear in court, no one is really aware of it) would it be possible for him to slip off, the now too big, ankle monitor (using a bit of vasoline) and escape? Just a weird thought since I wouldn’t put anything past fogen.
To escape from the ankle monitor, he would have to slip it over the heel. I doubt his weight gain and loss could happen quickly enough to prevent a necessary adjustment to prevent him from slipping the monitor over the heel.
Plus … I believe there’s something about design of most monitors that requires “mass” within the circular boundary. Lack of mass triggers an alert that something’s gone awry.
Fogen gets a visit every two weeks by the monitoring co just so that very thin g cannot happen. They are protecting a 1 million dollar gamble.
Heel amputation maybe?
I’m sorry, not to “yuck” someone’s “yum”…but there’s NOTHING authoritative about GZ or his father, in stature or the tone of their voice. They are all, a figment of their own imagination! Please, if they had the clout they think or their supporters have them convinced they do, this would have been over before it got started!
There’s no way I would’ve tolerated him and his foolishness…gated community or not, if he even attempted to pull the mess he did to other black residents on me, he would’ve known, without a doubt, that even though I now resided in a gated community…I’m from the, “I wish a N***a-Woods”. When I was growing up and only had boys my age to play outside with, my dad would watch out the window, and if I got in a scuffle with any of them, he would tell me I better not come in crying, and I better win the fight, or he’d beat my butt.
@Prof
Any guidance to when the defense has to give reciprocal discovery. Judge Nelson has the June10th date set in stone and a continuance was denied, even after O’Mara claimed they will not be ready and have no money, when can we expect the defense to hand over their discovery to the state?
You mean like the cv’s and statements of opinion of their forensic consultants? We know they have paid a few thousand already since new monies came rolling in (well, so they say, could be a 20 thousand sell off of 40 thousand in new computer systems, law office upgrades, they won’t be using now?)
@ay2z
That was funny. thanks for the laugh this afternoon.
I doubt that the defense intends to call any witnesses with the possible exception of the defendant.
And I was so looking forward to his wonderful brother taking the stand and single handedly exonerating him with more brilliant oratory.
Then there was that warm and fuzzy friend Frank Taaffe. I know I speak for millions when I say “..love to hear him from the stand…”
I guess I won’t have to buy tickets to that dog & pony show after all.
Thanks.
Hmmm? They will only cross-examine state witnesses, present their own experts and than Fogen himself?
Interesting, they might think about not having trial at all. Delay with another year on an ankle monitor, 300 lbs ‘ballpark’ could turn into what, in 12 months, 400 plus? LLMPapa will have t update his video, using an underwater fish eye lens and a whale songs.
ay2z says
bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha — i do my best to ignore and refrain from commenting on the weight issue because it is clearly an eating disorder, but dayam that’s funny!
At2z-LOL! “Whale songs”! At least they are more consistent than GZs stories!
Sent from my iPod
Actually, BB, there is a very significant deadline coming up quite soon. Judge Nelson’s 10/29/2012 Amended Scheduling Order, entered states:
ONLY 16 DAYS from now final witness lists, including experts, are due from both sides.
(Maybe we should start placing bets on whether a certain Mr. Knox will show up on one of the lists?!
)
Groans- after the scathing reviews he’s gotten online, do you think he’d bother to show up? His “theories” will be shredded as easily as GZs stories. Ten bucks he doesn’t show up in the case in court. Deal?
Sent from my iPod
@groans
Oooo. Thanks for the reminder. Marking that date on a reminder note.
>>>(Maybe we should start placing bets on whether a certain Mr. Knox will show up on one of the lists?!
)
If Mr. Knox shows up on any list, I will fly to Florida and give him a what for, it will be worth the price of the ticket to hold up a sign saying “Knox is an ox, he doesn’t know his ass from his elbow”.
He got hit when he approached the poor kid gun drawn
@Brandi Kansas City .
Your words above buy into the broken nose Trayvon attacked fogen senario.
How in the heck you excpect a person to punch or hit another without leaveing a speck of even contact DNA.
The defendant was never hit by the VICTIM a child.
You honestly think he saw the creepydude aproach him arm outstreched pointing a gun at him?.
An his responce was not to flee like a gazelle but attack an armed man.
The gun was never drawn untill fpogen had an unbreakable grip on his victims upper garments.
An whilst he was already screaming for help.
When the gun comes into the equasion thats when the heart renching Noooooooooooos Noooooos are heard an then silanced with one shot.
Trayvon did not ever attack the accused suspect defendand soon to be convicted.
Appoligies if other express same as above but I had to respond to that post on first reading.
Colin,
How does gz get the swollen nose and scratches?
Brandi, you might find the defendant’s own explanations helpful.
His nose was not swollen on the pictures taken at the station under good lighting and with an intact chain of custody. Have you looked at them?
GZ’s narrative makes no sense from any standpoint when you look into the DNA evidence.
Only the truth makes sense, and while we do not know the complete truth, we know enough to say beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ’s narrative is a whopping lie.
And the medical report, the defendant’s own evidence, let’s not forget.
photoshop
special effects
self mutalation
another time another place
looks worse than it was
photoshop
Le’ts add to that, the overwhelming exculpatory ‘testimony’ in court, by ENT Kevin.
More exculpatory evidence with the infamous defense photo taken 2 minutes…. 2 minutes when? No time for a peroxide eye flush before that photo, was there!!
Brandi, there’s more help from Osterman’s book, for SYG or immunity.
I think Charles Blow was funnin’ ya about the tuxedo.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/george-zimmermans-bloody-mess/2012/09/28/e204d598-09a4-11e2-858a-5311df86ab04_blog.html
I get a kick out of that “Are you following me George” every time. LOL
On the one hand, since it wasn’t Trayvon’s doing, does it matter? However, my suspicion is that the scratches can be accounted for by sneaking through the bushes between condos (thinking he never made a bee-line back towards the truck, but rather turned right on RVC and doubled back hoping to intercept T. or actually caught sight of him). The lacerations most likely from a sprinkler as the two wrestled in the grass, and the nose injury from the pistol recoil.
Again–what the evidence seems to indicate, without a reasonable doubt, is that they were NOT inflicted by Trayvon.
Frankly the prosecution has very little need to figure out how he got his injuries. It is germane to their interests to show that they could not have come from Trayvon in the manner described by the killer and to be bold, that they could not have come from Trayvon in any manner, (unless on that night, the corner of his sweatshirt became an animated deadly weapon). I think the forensics support them greatly in that task!
he got those injuries from tree branches or bushes those wounds on the back of his head came from a metal object
Swollen nose = not sure I see a swollen nose, per say, in the photos of GZ at the police station !
Possible swollen nose as you suggest = possible from gun recoil or falling flat on his face while chasing Trayvon
Scratches = Maybe he ran into a “bush” or tree while chasing Trayvon
Nicks on the back of his head = if I recall correctly GZ slips up in one of his interviews and says the word “sign”…maybe he had a run-in with the dog poop sign ?
I’m going to say that I believe the police station pictures as far as any alleged nose injury is concerned. If his nose looked anything like the one in the picture allegedly taken by Wagner…..the EMT’s report would be worded something like this.
“Nose is broken and about the size of a melon. Patient demands medication for immense pain”
“Patient given XXX CC’s of XXXXXXXXX for pain and breathing tube of 02″
“Preposterous Knuckle Bandages recommended until swelling abates”
Yeah……..that was documented how…….”possible” was the operative word…actually I believe “….patient reported possible broken nose” to the PA the next day.
@Racer
Holy Knuckle Bandages Batman!!
If he only had a report like that it would blow the case wide open.
LOL
This is what he told the PA:
During the altercation he was
assaulted, punched in the face, and shoved to the ground where his head was hit into the pavement multiple
times. During the altercation, he had a weapon as he is authorized to carry a firearm and he fired at the attacker, killing
him. He was evaluated by EMS and slates his lacerations were cleaned. He was told that he had a broken nose and
denies being taken to the hospital. He then returned to work and was told he needed a police report and medical
clearance to return to work. He denies HA, change in VA, slurred speech, dizziness, or gait abnormality. Admits to
occasional nausea when thinking about the violence last night, but denies abdominal pain. Also complaining of left Sl joint
tenderness since the event. Denies numbness/tingling or incontinence.
The paramedic report on states he had tenderness and minor bleeding from his nose and not one word about it possibly being broken. I feel, the PA, just went with the story and hence her “likely broken” but wanting him to be seen by an ENT.
All I can say is
What kind of soap and water, as well as knuckle bandages, cures the head and skull and nose from almost being beaten to death?
Is it anything like Extenze? LMAO
@Jun
>>>Is it anything like Extenze? LMAO
Bwa aaa ha ha ha ha
correction, wasn’t Van Jones, not Charles Blow who made the tuxedo comment.
if the struggle is dynamic, which I assume it was. GZ had a weight advantage. You can easily figure out that he may have scraped his head on one of the water sprinkler’s on the lawn or on the edges of the walk if the struggle ever moved there. One of the witnesses did a drawing, I think it is in discovery 7 were she puts the struggle close to one such I can’t completely decipher it, but I think she called it a concrete block. It’s the neighbor of witness # 6, or the girl that sees the white t-shirt on top. Notice even witness #6, perceives the few seconds he witness as dynamic. But I consider his later statements colored by what he witnessed later, overheard, was told by neighbors or present officers. For whatever reason, I prefer this to running into bushes or signs. But I cannot explain why.
It’s in an interview with Singleton when he says he hit his head “against the pavement or I don’t know, if there was a sign or what it was.”
Nobody needs to figure out how Fogen got his little scratches and his bump on dee noze. Those were very minor injuries, not enough to sue an airline for if they dropped a suitcase on your face when you were getting into your seat. You’d get a voucher for a free tuna sandwich on your next trans-Atlantic flight. The guy’s FULL OF IT.
However he got those scratches, they do not figure into a reasonable fear of great bodily harm or death. Furthermore, anything Trayvon Martin did to Fogen when he was being followed and threatened was self-defense on Trayvon’s part, and has nothing to do with Fogen standing HIS ground. The ONLY place Fogen could have stood HIS ground was in his damn Schtruck, and he shoulda schtuck there in his schtruck if he didn’t want to get schtruck on his silly noggin.
Who threw the first punch? Irrelevant. But if the question must be answered as to “who started it?” the answer is obvious: Fogen. He set out to get that fucking punk and he DID get that fucking punk and the way he did it fit the legal definition of Murder-2 (at least) in Florida. NOW both sides want to pull back from having a trial.
Why?
At trial, we will find out about those phone calls.
We will find out about that March 1, 2012 HOA meeting.
We will find out about the e-mails Fogen sent after the killing.
We will find out about which witnesses had conversations with which cops and when they spoke with the defendant.
We’ll find out way too much about Tim Smith, Raimondo, Wolfinger, Lee, and probably others who are vulnerable if it all has to come out.
You can bet big money has changed hands to make sure that will never happen.
Then creepily, slowly, and in the best bureaucratic refractory manner, the FBI investigation will close — with no conclusions reached.
Knox will never be cross-examined.
Fogen will never take the stand.
That money they gathered will not be used for experts.
I expect right about now Fogen has PTSD.
But several very good things will come of this whole thing:
1 – Nobody will be able to figure they get a free kill;
2 – Fogen and his crowd will have been put through Hell no matter what the outcome is;
3 – Lee is history; Wolfinger is history; some cops had to “take it up the a55″;
4 – Journalists like Stutzman will learn that they can’t just make it up as they go along, that there’s actually a price to be paid thanks to the Internet.
Please let renee stuzman be gone asap. I do disagree I don’t believe anything good will come of this unless gz gets the max sentence.
There has been a few Trayvon like cases since.
Gz a guy who couldn’t pass algebra killed a kid in advanced math
was broke and has since received several hundred thousand dollars.
His parents even got in on the begging for blood money.
His brother is on every show seems to love the fame
He is being paid for autographs
The family of Trayvon is having to defend his right to live by proving he was the only perfect teenager ever
The media seems to be gz’s PR lately
Unfortunately as minor as gz’s bumps are there are some that believe that a black male that raises their hand should die. Maybe even have one on the jury.
@Brandi.
GZ has nothing to show for that money other than a fast, massive weight gain, and a lawsuit for owing $28,000.
GZ is like a drug addict who convinces friends to give him money and the more they give, the more often he gets high.
GZ is his own multi-level marketing scheme horror story.
@fauxmccoy. It kinda reminds me of divorce cases where a spouse wants more in alimony, but the law says that they are only meant to live in the same lifestyle they had during the marriage.
GZ wasn’t spending $12,000 a month on his lifestyle before he killed Trayvon, and I seriously doubt that any of his financial donors live $12,000 monthly lifestyles.
He was convinced that this was the start of the sweet life, so why budget now? Did anyone see the interview done on Wit. 22? He was the co-worker that was harassed by fogen at Car-Max. He said that fogen is so much of a smooth talker that when they were in a meeting about his complaint he started to doubt his own complaint.
Wow Malisha you give me so much hope.
Great writing, but I see Fogen headed exactly where he should be. However, we probably won’t know a whole lot more, ever, ever, about SPD and what truly went on behind the scenes.
Who owns the Orlando Sentinel, does anyone know?
“Who owns the Orlando Sentinel, does anyone know?”
No, no one knows.
It’s a complete mystery.
Even whoever owns it don’t know that they own it.
(but there’s a rumor over at wikipedia that it’s the chicago trib)
unitron
Wiki says they’ve shifted to a format to engage people who don’t read much I guess that explains why they’re getting behind GZ. So now it’s the radio station the tv station and the newspaper pushing for GZ.
I guess a SEC search might turn up something if anyone cares to give it a go.
No rumor, Unitron. Seems the Orlando Sentinel was part of the Tribune Co publishing universe, and thus bought in 2006 by Sam Zell. If I get things correct, then Renée Stutzman and the Orlando Sentinel have survived the Tribune Co bankruptcy in Dec. 2008. Maybe that was simply to get rid of debts. I remember events after the take over at the Los Angeles Times well. Maybe Stutzman is simply careful, easy for journalists to loose their jobs nowadays.
Next time I’ll try to use a really big font for the “teasing” tag.
But seriously, I just opened Google, typed in “orlando sentenel ownership”, hit Enter, and it came back and told me I’d misspelled “sentinel” and the Wikipedia entry was the first hit and Tribune was right there in the preview text, so it’s not like it was being kept a deep, dark secret.
And there’s no indication that I could find anywhere of any connection at any time between the now Washington Post owned WKMG and the Chicago Tribune or any of the Tribune companies.
unitron
I have to admit these leveraged buyouts are sometimes very puzzling. I’ve studied similar cases over here.
Isn’t it wonderful that Google even considers our spelling disabilities? I kept misspelling Sentinel for quite a while myself. Admittedly I did not realize what it means. Shouldn’t a sentinel stand with Fogen, no matter how misguided he was?
I hadn’t heard about Colin’s grass either, admittedly. About snitches, narcs and finks but not about “grasses”.
Besides, please don’t use big font teasing tags. This tease reminded me I miss a specific tool I once had, was helpful occasionally to get more business specific contents.
WKMG? Oh, I see: WKMG-TV. Watching it? Now, could this be another teaser? You couldn’t find one because none exists?
Not so much a tease as an anticipation of where all this might be going.
I’m not of the opinion that the newspaper, or the television station, for that matter, has a pro or anti either side agenda in this case, but apparently some people do, and might look to its ownership for a motive.
Also there seems to be some confusion on the part of some regarding whether the newspaper or the television station did various things, especially as regards Michael Knox.
unitron
Both the newspaper and the TV station are pro- MONEY, so they will milk whatever will bring viewers to their sites. Journalism is dead. Welcome to Shock-Jock sound bytes.
‘Both the newspaper and the TV station are pro- MONEY”
I tried to make that point to someone around here the other day, that they don’t care how the trial comes out, they care that people wanting news about it come to them and boost their ratings instead of the competitions, but that other person persisited in believing that it was all about ideology, without understanding that the guiding ideology is “We want to turn a profit, not have to go out of business”.
unitron
I think ideology comes into play only insofar as it plays to the predominate demographics. Since Florida is still so racist, you will find that slant in their news outlets. Not really because its really the news as it is, but rather its the news people there are willing to pay to read. Like I said, journalism is dead.
Sent from my iPod
I think this was more along the lines of “If the media won’t refer to (the not yet convicted of anything) Zimmerman as Trayvon’s murderer, it just proves they’re all secret members of the KKK” kind of suspicion of bias.
unitron
Tribune Company, just emerged from bankruptcy. It was taken private a few years ago by real estate mogul Sam Zell, after a ng reignr as a major public newspaper chain with television interests and ownership of Wrigley Field for many years.
It has no ownership links with the Washington Post Company, or the old the Knight-Ridder chain.
For many years the big cash cow for Tribune Company (they always made a big fucking deal about not abbreviating into “Co.”) was the old evening Fort Lauderdale News, which had the high ad lineage in the nation for many years, thanks to massive area real estate development. The News merged with the weaker morning Pompano Beach Sun-Sentinel in the ’80s to become the morning South Florida Sentinel, which went head to head against the Miami Herald and Palm Beach Post. .
Other Trib papers include the Chicago Trib, Baltimore Sun, LA Times. Purging of editorial staff continues, since its cheaper to staff up with interns and just of college kids than seasoned pros. LA Times got rid of a prize-winning health writers a year or so because she was too expensive.
Meant South Florida Sun-Sentinel, aka informally the Sentinel, sister to the Orlando Sentinel.
Tribune shares once traded in the $77 range. When Zell took things private, shareholders got something like $22 and change per share.
So you are slightly unforgiving, bear grudges, or discussions leave traces on your mind, which allow you to sort people in easily defined boxes: ignorant about, it’s the economy stupid! I guess that’s the one I ended up in?
Now at what point precisely did the Washington Post shift from the Watergate scandal paper into the unquestioning support of a decades long War on Terrorism. If money is all that counts, wasn’t that the same in the times of Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein? It should be if it is such a general rule.
To choose a different country, and I do not expect you to know the German newspaper market, would you say the Jerusalem Post and Haaretz are identical. Meaning it’s all about the money only? It may in fact become more and more a fact with Israel Ya’Hom being distributed freely. Probably financed by ads.
I have a couple of friends working in journalism. One of them managed to work for a paper that represented his political perspective. The others I have witnessed slowly adopting to the perspective of their papers shifting conservative to right.
Before the Nazis took over here in Germany, a bill was extensively discussed was meant to become law that would have given journalists freedom of expression. Once the Nazis took over that development wasn’t only stopped but reverted. They created the institution of a watchdog, a “sentinel” in every newspaper that was personally responsible for the adherence to the strict observance of the rules from Berlin dictating what had to be written word by word, and all the other rules signaled by the color of the respective papers the news were printed on. Now that is the extreme. But as my friends told me, before they adopted the respective perspective more or less thoroughly themselves, in less extreme situations you simply develop “scissors your head”, that cut out everything you feel that does not fit the larger perspective of the paper or media. Since if you don’t, it’s done for you. After a while you learn and conform.
So maybe it’s not all about money only. While yes it adds an important angle to the issue. But there are also expectations of the respective readers that have to be taken care of.
Seems I was somehow undecided here about what to choose and did not pay attention: adopting the perspective or adapting to the perspective. Conform with, anyway.
I won’t check the rest.
leander – you are making an excellent point. it is more than money that drives journalism. newspapers in this country vie for political power and influence, historically and today. we see this most easily around election times when editorials are unabashedly biased and newspapers endorse ‘their’ particular candidate.
You just plain CAN’T have an immunity hearing AFTER a prosecution. Why not start with an appeal and work backwards? How could you get immunity from something that already happened? After all, why don’t we just do an immunity hearing for Trayvon Martin and determine that he’s immune from being stalked, accosted and killed, wouldn’t that be a great idea?
After a trial has happened, there can be no immunity hearing. If O’Mara REALLY thinks there can be, he’s not so smart. On the other hand, if he thinks he can say that to keep the Outhousers happy for a while so he can work something out that would really get them mad, so be it. I don’t mind if O’Mara lies to the Outhousers and leads them down the stupid garden path; he is, after all, to the manner born.
It is my understanding that in an immunity hearing the defendant must prove by a preponderance of evidence that he acted in self defense. Considering the political nature of this case, I find it unlikely that Judge Nelson will grant immunity before the trial. She can simply rule that some of the facts are disputed and deny the motion. I think that is the likely scenario, which is why I think the defense if forgoing the hearing. They can go to trial and ask for immunity after the prosecutions case and again before the jury goes into deliberations.
So considering that the defendant’s finances are already in the toilet, the defendant is not in jail, and Nelson is unlikely to grant immunity, I think it’s a smart move by MOM.
Besides, why would you give the prosecution an opportunity to see your defensive strategy if you don;t think you’ll win immunity at the hearing? And like you wrote Professor, why would they put the fogen on the stand if they don’t need to do so?
Glad you enlightened us about that.
If you had read my articles on the immunity hearing, you would know that your statement is wrong. The Florida Supreme Court rejected that test.
It’s very clear that the defense has decided to waive the immunity hearing because they know they cannot prove that it’s more probable than not that the defendant acted in self-defense.
That’s basically an admission that they have no case.
I thought GZ chose to go to trial for the social good of the nation…I swear I heard O’Mara say something like that
I believe that is the most ridiculous statement O’Mara has uttered throughout this unapologetic racist smoke-and-mirrors defense.
I’m surprised he was able to keep a straight face.
Next thing you know, he will appear wrapped up in a flag singing America the Beautiful and bemoaning that we cannot all get along.
Ahhhh, Nostalgia….An American Flag. Remember the “The real GZ” website with the American Flag waving in the background.
I sent them so many e-mails about that I’m shocked RZ Jr didn’t pay me a personal visit. I tried, but he didn’t bite.
bwah ha ha ha
with pastor terry Jones in tow
Tzar~ MOM said something along the lines that a jury wouold convince the nation that GZ is innocent MORE than if only a judge found him innoccent. Sounds like dog whistles referring to “riots” if only a judge found him innocent.
I was being facetious, i know exactly what Mr. Ed said
OOPS! Sorry! Didn’t see the facetious sign. I guess I was just taking things too literally.
Sent from my iPod
no problem, I refuse to post a sarcasm sign, If people can’t get my sarcasm without it, then I am doing something wrong and I need to challenge myself to do a better job
so forgive me my friend
“Preponderance of evidence” is subjective and up to the interpretation of the judge making the decision. Of course she can’t use disagreement over a small detail to determine immunity. But given the reams of evidence presented on your blog alone, I don’t see how she could grant it. Add the evidence the political pressure and I’d be willing to bet my farm that she won’t.
So please don’t patronize me Professor. I read the case law (Peterson and Dennis). The truth is that MOM made a smart move because he put the burden of proof on the prosecution, kept fogen off the stand, and did not reveal any defensive strategies to the prosecution. And at this point if I was the fogen, I’d be more worried about avoiding prison time than I’d be about lawsuits.
Wouldn’t te burden of proof be in the prosecution ANYWAY during any regular trial? MOM is just waiving one right while pretending he hasn’t ,just to make his fan base happy.
Sent from my iPod
How’s Fogen gonna even have a chance without taking the stand? LMAO
There’s no evidence he acted in self defense
@Jun
I’m guessing he’ll decide whether or not to testify after the prosecution presents their case. The defense will be trying to impeach the the prosecution’s evidence and witness credibility. Then they’ll ask for immunity and/or for the charges to be dismissed. Next they’ll call their witnesses and experts. At that point, depending on how they feel about the case and especially the jury, they will decide to call fogen or not.
They are just looking to create reasonable doubt; The defense isn’t obligated to prove anything. There is a presumption of innocence. The onus is on the state.
The main problem is Fogen’s claimed “attack injuries” because the forensics and witnesses support the idea that Trayvon never caused those injuries
That lone makes Fogen’s claims not credible
I also do not know whose credibility they can impeach
They might go at witness 8 but does Omara really want to bring up medical records, considering his client’s lack of medical records and hospital records and treatment?
There’s also no proof witness 8 lied, and all Omara has is allegations with nothing to back it up and me thinks it will also backfire because witness 8 could simply tell them why she wont divulge her medical records and I am willing to bet she will tell them about threats to her life from Fogen
I also do not think Omara’s theory of rain washing away blood and dna will suffice considering it never washed off at all on Fogen, Fogen’s clothing, Fogen’s gun, nor did the blood smear wash off of the bottom of Trayvon’s shirt
The witnesses have no connection to either party and 4 of the witnesses describe it as a kid screaming for help or making strange squealing noises
Witness 18 saw it from the confrontation forward and places Fogenbottomz as the aggressor
It seems like a house of cards to me but we will see what Omara comes up with
@Jun
We’ll see…
No, Judge Nelson would deny it because Fogenhats did not act in self defense
His proof is extremely minor injuries which he gave himself and tried to frame Trayvon, the kid he killed
His other proof is W6, the person with ever changing stories, who either is unsure of what he saw or he is working in cohesion with the defendant
His other proof is having his father jump on the stand with the “absolutely 100% George” act, as if people can not tell with their own ears it does not sound like FogenHitler
That is pretty much FogenHitler’s “proof”
The fact that he stalked and chased Trayvon is easily proven by using FogenHitler’s own statements
All FogenHitler did was target, stalk, chase, threaten, attack, and kill, then lie and try to manipulate or flaunt the system
That’s aggravated stalking, aggravated assault, murder 2, structuring (it says under the law attempt to cause the tracking system by making movements under $10K, which he did), providing false information for his bail application
If the state wanted to go all out they got lots of proof LOL
Also, court is not how the Zidiots picture it
FogenHitler… LOLZ!!!!!
What is fogen.
@ Creepytwins re:
Incorrect. Immunity must be raised in a pretrial motion to dismiss the charges. See the Florida Supreme Court decision, Dennis v. State.
You’re mistaken. There is nothing in the Dennis decision that prevents the defense from requesting immunity after the trial has begun.
http://lawofselfdefense.com/law_case/dennis-v-state-51-so-3d-456-fl-supreme-court-2010/
Not true. They call it a pretrial hearing and do not explicitly approve of another procedure.
Moreover, they do not consider the potential violation of constitutional rights that such a procedure could create.
Note the following language in Dennis:
I am fairly sure there is something written that a defendant can not intentionally delay a trial or even an immunity hearing
Considering the unreasonable and unreasonable amount of continuance requests, a request for an immunity hearing seems like an attempt to delay the trial, therefore the court has a right to deny the motion if it is not within the specified time and the defendant is still allowed to assert his affirmative defense, especially considering it would have been over a year and the defense has really done nothing consequential
According to the article you posted, they agreed with the court’s actions in denying the defendant’s motion to dismiss
Also IMO it is already unjust to the victim of an incident
Too bad, so sad
@Professor
But Peterson still applies, doesn’t it?
@ creepytwins re:
Incorrect, again. The Dennis court held:
The subject of Rule 3.190 is PRETRIAL motions, and Rule 3.190(c) governs when Rule 3.190(b) PRETIAL motions must be filed.
You’ll need to understand Rule 3.190 to understand the rest of my reply. So, here’s a link to the Florida Rules of Criminal Procedure (Rule 3.190 begins on page 78):
http://www.floridabar.org/TFB/TFBResources.nsf/0/BDFE1551AD291A3F85256B29004BF892/$FILE/Criminal.pdf
Nearly five months ago (and eight months after the killer killed Trayvon), with the agreement of both parties, Judge Nelson entered a Scheduling Order on October 29, 2012, which included:
Judge Nelson exercised her Rule 3.190(c) discretion generously and allowed ample time for the defense to file a motion to dismiss and prepare for a hearing on it. She had even reserved court resources for an immunity hearing six months in advance.
If the defense does not file a motion to dismiss on the ground of section 776.032 immunity within the timeframe set by the court, “SYG” immunity SHALL be considered WAIVED, according to Rule 3.190(c). The defense cannot raise it during or after trial.
Of course, the defense could ask to file its motion later, but I doubt the judge would feel compelled to grant that request. And since that’s entirely within her discretion, appellate relief is highly unlikely. How could the defense argue that she “abused” her discretion on the facts of this case?
I think she needs to clarify that she is not going to hold an immunity hearing during the trial or after trial, because she did not make that clear to O’Mara when he said he was thinking about rolling it up into the trial instead of doing the hearing in April.
That is why, if I were the judge, I would have my judicial assistant contact counsel for both sides and inform them that I want to hold a hearing to consider whether the immunity hearing can be merged into the trial or taken up in a post-trial motion after the jury renders it verdict.
I realize the defense probably has no intention of seeking immunity or at least no expectation that it will be granted, but I would hate to see a conviction get reversed on appeal because both matters were combined.
I believe the hearing should be held before trial or not at all, btw.
Thank you Professor. Clarification is important on this particular point. Dennis II (from my perspective) indicates that an immunity hearing must be granted if requested. But the FSC case also suggested that Peterson still applies. Is, in fact, the burden of proof on the defense if immunity is sought or can it be rolled into the trial where the defendant does not have to testify? I think Judge Nelson needs to clarify this issue.
@groans
I see your point, but let’s suppose (hypothetically, of course) that a witness recants his/her testimony at trial and provides information that shows self defense was justified. Are you saying that because the defendant waived the immunity hearing, he/she is not eligible for immunity from civil litigation?
The photographer who took the picture of the starving child in Sudan was Kevin Carter. He was a man of conscience. He committed suicide, overcome by depression and sorrow at witnessing so much suffering, at age 33. He was a white South African who was brought up during Apartheidt and who did not understand how people, including his own people, could do such horrible things to others.
I consider him to have been a righteous man thrown down in intolerable circumstances and too sensitive to survive them. Strangely, his image has him down as INsensitive; that was not the case.
“Don’t let me be misunderstood” –
So very sad to happen to such a caring, sensitive person.
The song you chose, Malisha, really speaks to his sorrowful end.
I don’t feel he was at all insensitive to take that picture or release it. The world needed to see it. The world needs to see many more photos like it to come to their senses about the disparities between the wealthy and poor in the world.
And the disparities between the powerful and powerless, and what the powerful can do to the powerless. The starvation of the South Sudanese, as well as of the people of Darfur in the west, by the Sudanese ruling class, was a man-made famine.
Yes.
Xena says:
March 11, 2013 at 12:53 pm
IMO, O’Mara doesn’t want an immunity hearing for several reasons, the main one being that GZ cannot testify. He is most likely to go bonkers on the witness stand during cross-examination. Still another reason is that O’Mara and West don’t want to put in unpaid time for an immunity hearing followed by unpaid time for trial.
Reply
@
Oh they will pay for it one way or another they will pay.
No good dead goes without reward.The reward is double for both the recepient of the good deed benifit ditto the benifactor is rewarded with a feeling of goood will.
Bro Bono.
Means a charitable act.
Nothing charitable about attempting to help a CHILD MURDERER escape consiquence for his depraved actions.
Nothing charitable about defameing both the deceased VICTIM but also his Family an Loved ones an his SWEETHEART.
Witnrss EIGHT Loved Trayvons HEART your defendant put a bullet a hollow point from a hollow shell of human garbage.
Nothing charitable about there actions at all.The way Skellator West rose to the podium an hissed that he wanted wittneses 8 address nae demanded it.
Called her a LIAR at every opertunity he could,
If he spoke about a Daughter of mine in that tone off voice me an him are going to have WORDS.
An by that I mean verbal intercouse only Id be on top.
Anyway back on point they couldnt be acting less charitable if they atttempted to.
An as no good deed goes unrewarded.The opposite applys to no bad deed going unpunished.
An those three M O M Skelator an fogen will all get what thy are due.
In fact they are already began to reap what they have sown.
An theres a Tornado of righous justice an ass kicking heading there way .
Not often seen by so many so wide an far fogens day of reckoning aproaches.
Time at the momment for him an his de fence team will be aproaching light speed.
So fast will his repetitive days fly by.
An then he hits the big hoose an time stands still forever in his case hopefully.
You cannot redeem a souless person i m o.
An only a person with no recouse for human empathy could kill a CHILD in such a casual manner.
An show not one iota of emotion nae flicker of remorse
Opposite in fact contempt for his victim.
The reason HOMIE was dropped quick smart from the script was.
HOMIE= victim no name though fogen gave him a pet name SUSPECT.
HOMIE DROPED Soon as fogen is made aware suspect has a name suspect is a good child .
Suspect was on retreat with cause infact suspect was with in sight of his own back door.
So suddenly all the more elebarate over the toppish thing disapear ,
Like the Hommie like the attacking from behind thrre ft high bushes growing fluch up besides the homes outside walls at least at the T.
All the thugish lingo dropped an just upped the ante on his unprovked thugish behaviour
Double back an circleing his car challenging almost threating behaviour.
Trying to make it sound as if Trayvon was lureing our hero into a trap.
All the while spying on him waiting to attack.
As our hero meandres about in the darkness looking for the holy grail off an un asked for unwanted an unused addres.
An all the while Trayvon is lurking waiting to pounce on our poor victim hero fogen.
He happens to be answering his mobile an chattin to his Girlfreing so lound that our hero the victim probably hears him.
An just tells sean to have them guys call me laters an Ill tell them where Im at .
Yup You got it.
@colin black. It is one thing for a defendant to lie in effort to save their own ass. It’s another for a defendant and his legal counsel to lie on or about the victim and witnesses. The thugification of Trayvon Martin was started by White Supremacists. When O’Mara and Skelator West pick up that banner, they too are promoting White Supremacist agenda. But, we’re not suppose to see that, right?
There’s one thing I’ve been thinking about that your post brings out, into specific relief, at least to me. We’ve been talking about the “thuggification” of Trayvon from the beginning. Maybe it’s because of my own emotional investment in this case, maybe I’m a bit ultrasensitive as a black woman approaching 50, but the way DeeDee has been and is being treated, particularly with regards to the “lying and perjury” are very reminiscent of a time when black women were portrayed as liars or whores to prevent them from reporting or testfying in attacks against them, mostly by white men. I say ultrasensitive because I understand that in today’s world there are literally no holds barred, in that area with regard to race or even gender, but the way DeeDee is being treated has a very “Hemingwayesque” feel to it, for lack of a better way of describing it.
@Nef05. In this case, Zidiots do not discriminate — if you’re Black, you’re under attack. It’s the mindset of racist bigots. Of course, they could not say that DeeDee is a liar without incorporating a conspiracy against attorney Crump. Well, attorney Blackwell represented attorney Crump on the subpoena matter, but Zidiots have not called him a liar, an idiot, neither appropriated slang speech to him nor mocked his southern accent.
So, here we have an attorney who is Black who Zidiots say is a con artist, liar, etc., represented by a White lawyer who brings attorney Crump’s sworn affidavit before the court. In the Zidiot nation, Judge Nelson and attorney Blackwell are not stupid, con artists, low class, uneducated, etc. — just attorney Crump, whom the White lawyer and White judge believe.
you will have to pardon my mental meanderings here folks and i will apologize in advance if this offends anyone in anyway.
we do not even know for certain that DeeDee is black. she is W8 and on the phone with TM for much of the day on the day of his death. that is the sum of what we know about her which is good. yes, we have listened to her interviews with BDLR and Crump. we assume she is black, but we do not know.
yes, she is treated with vehement scorn by raging racists.
part of me would love to blow their minds if W8 should take the stand and be caucasian. i realize that racists have pretty low thoughts about white women dating black men as well. just picturing in my mind how this would shake down.
[i am reminded of dave chapelle's routine of the blind, black white supremacist who eventually divorces his blind wife for 'being a n***** lover".]
Faux McCoy- LOL! Truly I had never thought if that! I’d probably hear the collective explosion of the CTH over here in Texas!
Sent from my iPod
@Cielo62
Th ground started moving as soon as I read the post!!!
Nef05 — Hemingwayesque? Absolutely.
Fogen supporters have offered one racist argument after another after another. Why the Z family will have anything at all to do with that or why Fogen or his attorneys will accept any money from that quarter at all is beyond me. They say they don’t and obviously they do.
@Two sides.
The same bigots who think that Blacks do not want to work to earn a living, are the same ones who support GZ who had a job and a residence, but abandoned both before Trayvon was identified and the local news reported it. But, what’s really funny is that none of his supporters in Seminole County have offered him a job and free housing.
Xena — Joe Oliver should house and take care of his dear dear loving friend Fogen.
Today I saw a bumper sticker: It said “Take my hand, not my life.”
Colin Black- yep , karma’s a bitch!
Sent from my iPod
To Colin OMG I envy how you can write exactly how I feel but can’t explain.You and many others here make me proud to be part of the human race.Please any of you please listen to Javararis Fulton’s interview on april 14 2012 with Sunny Hostin on CNN it does your heart good how he talks about his brother TM.
pat – the interview with jahvaris is beautiful and touching. i saw it when it became available. one would have to assume that his brother would have come across just as beautifully if he had been given the chance. that interview makes me cry. i am grateful that sybrina has this son still and it also compounds the loss somehow.
Do any of you have a link? I’d love to hear it.
@SG2
I don’t know if you got the link for the CNN interview, but here it is…..
http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/13/justice/florida-trayvon-brother
Thank you for this, Blush.
@sg2
*daps*
double checking, caught your note to me earlier, thanks, very kind of you,
Brandi Kansas City says:
March 11, 2013 at 2:18 pm
Colin,
How does gz get the swollen nose and scratches
Scratches easy pitch black even if his torch was working.
He wouldnt have it on as flashlight would possibly alert Trayvon of his presence.
He could well have seen Trayvon heading up the path dog walk.
Talking on his hands free an he heard or heard the ringtone either way.
He joggs to the street he admitted to seeking an adress at forget its name at mo.
He take a sharp right an runs along to get level or just in font of Trayvon by useing the cut throughs beetween every thirn apartment.
Those are full of sapplings head hight so scratches ocour.
Confronts Trayvon blocks path home chase short an the wresstleing struggling unsues.
He shot one handed an recoil could account for swollen nose.
One things for sure wasnt Trayvon a kind of glad he didnt as the lack of any DNA Proves none of the things fogggen says occoured could have ocoured.
Forensics dont lie fogen does nothing but.
Colin,
I do see the recoil happening. Thanks for answering the question. We have heard much from the defense and little from the pros. Totally makes sense.
I actually have witnessed someone breaking their nose from recoil.
What was the person shooting? How was he/she holding the gun? Did the person have any prior shooting experience?
I’ve always been very skeptical about this theory. The 9mm Luger cartridge just doesn’t kick that hard, even when fired from a lightweight pistol like the killer’s (and the killer, a pretty sturdy looking guy at the time of the shooting, apparently had had plenty of practice with it.
@Dave – There’s lots on the internet about the KelTec PF-9 (I think that was the killer’s weapon) significant recoil. Also, the killer by his own accounts used only one hand when he fired the gun.
I’d also be interested in seeing your source(s) of information that the killer “apparently had had plenty of practice with [the gun].”
Groans- didn’t osterman say that he and GZ spent plenty if time shooting together at the gun range?
Sent from my iPod
Yes he did.
Yes and MO also says they practiced once monthly in the back yard at his place.
Is that legal in FL?? Most states have laws that prohibit discharging a firearm outside for any reason other than self defense.
Hi groans!
According to Mark Osterman, he and the killer used to practice together at a local range pretty regularly. Seeing that Osterman is an experienced police officer, I think it’s safe to assume that he showed the defendant at least the rudiments of shooting. I can’t recall whether this information came from an Osterman police interview, TV interview or his book.
As for the recoil from the 9mm cartridge, my knowledge comes from personal experience of firing hundred of rounds through a small. lightweight pistol (a Star BKS “Starlight”). It isn’t bad at all. The 9mm Luger cartridge has been in production since 1908 when it was adopted by the German army and is now the standard pistol and submachinegun cartridge of most of the world’s armed forces, largely because of its easily managed recoil.
The handgun was always considered a one-hand weapon until 30 or 40 years ago when the use of a two-handed stance gradually became standard, largely through the influence of writer and teacher Jeff Cooper (a prominent advocate of the .45 ACP, a far more powerful cartridge than the 9mm) as well as the popularity at the time of Magnum-class revolvers. With a medium strength cartidge like the 9mm, a two-handed grip is mainly to promote accuracy, not to protect oneself from facial cuts.
Hi, Dave!
I do know that you’re the gun expert among us. In fact, I think we’ve commented back and forth before, due to my total ignorance about everything firearms. [I mean: "Hello, everybody - cartridges are for printers! Quit talking silly, now!"]
And you’re always so factual and rational about everything you write that I am forced to give considerable weight to what you say.
But, dang it, I just plain LIKE the recoil theory! I even laughed at the irony of it when I first read someone propose it. [Ohhhhhhh - how cooool would that be?!] Yet, YOU keep spoiling it for me.
Could you at least just give me that, maybe … just maybe:
1) The killer is more wimpy than, say, you and other normal folks;
2) The killer was so busy premeditating that he couldn’t simultaneously remember Osterman’s gun-handling lessons;
3) The killer was so busy trying to restrain his victim that he couldn’t simultaneously remember Osterman’s gun-handling lessons; and/or,
4) The killer was unable to apply Osterman’s “shooting range” lessons to an actual gun-shooting scenario?
I’ll understand if you can’t, but thanks for your consideration.
PS – There really are internet articles and YouTubes about this particular gun’s remarkable “kick.” So there’s like polar opposite information….
Groans,
Here’s a reason that you might NOT like that theory.
If it could be conclusively shown that the killer’s bloody nose was caused by the recoil of his pistol, it would follow that he was holding the gun within inches of his face with his wrist bent backward when he pulled the trigger, not with his arm extended as he demonstrated in at least one interview.
Why would he fire from such an awkward position? The only reason I can think of is that Trayvon actually was on top. No, I don’t believe that.
Why would he fire
While I’m not excluding the possibility of recoil as the cause of the bloody nose, I also think that it’s possible that the bloody nose was caused by Trayvon hitting GZ’s nose while struggling to escape from his grip – probably with some part of his body other than his hands (maybe his head or his shoulder).
Dave,
GZ’s cheap azz gun actually does have a lot of kick. It’s not the standard 9mm it is compacted to be concealed. The gun has big kick because of that it also has no safety. Also many malfunctions with this cheapo throw away dirt gun.
I totally agree Brandi…..
Read or watch some reviews of the kel tec pf9…..It’s even stated that the gun is no fun for target shooting due to the excessive recoil.
If fogen had one hand (the one he was careful not to shoot) holding on to Trayvon…..he shot one handed…..entirely possible the nose injury was due to the recoil.
Dave and Groans,
It was a shotgun. I know shotgun vs handgun. But, I had a close call with recoil and my forehead shooting a 357 mag but never had any issues with a mini 14 rifle it’s actually my fave. I did shoot that cheapo gz had at a gun shop and it gave me a lot of kick/recoil actually thinking about it it was a jerky kick instead of the kick that brings your hands up like most. Thinking even more maybe its because its an automatic because the one automatic handgun I’ve shot also jerks instead of raising like my preferred handg a revolver. I find it likely that he could have done broken his nose since he shot one handed with his weaker hand.
Brandi- except for fact that GZ did NOT have a broken nose at all! He had a tiny scratch over the bridge. No swelling, no black eyes, no pain even a few hours later at the cop shop! Whatever made that minor injury ( and it might have been the recoil) did NOT break that nose.
Sent from my iPod
I leave and then come here to take a peek. All I can say is that this case still sickens me and leaves me feeling weak. I don’t even want to imagine what the parents, other family members, and friends feel. All I can hope is that my belief in a just and loving God is not in vain.
It seems to me that the defense is making a calculated strategy based upon burdens of proof. The decision is between proving self-defense by a preponderance of the evidence (more likely than not) at a pre-trial hearing versus making the state prove NOT self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. While the preponderance of the evidence standard is the easiest one to meet, the judge has already telegraphed her decision to deny the pre-trial motion (by focusing on jury selection and seating arrangements at the trial.) The judge may change that bias later on though, because she more amenable to defense requests after the W8 fiasco. It may be a good strategy to put the burden on the state, because it is the hardest one to meet. That seems to be why BDLR exclaimed that he was “bewildered.” The state has lots of work to do in order to meet that burden.
In addition, the strategy also seems useful in that gz will not have to testify at the pre-trial hearing and give away his case. Likewise, prospective jurors will know if he failed to prove self-defense and perhaps be biased by that.
All in all, it seems that the burden one way or the other is now squarely on the state. Best of luck!
@stevie g.
Huh? Judge Nelson rendered it moot.
Not only that, the first thing the defense asked for after that was for her address again. The judge was quick to deny……for the 3rd time.
@towerflower. Yep. Like a spoiled child saying, if you won’t give me her hospital records, then give me her address. If you won’t give me her address, give me her birth certificate. If you won’t give me her birth certificate, give me the names of her parents, all her cousins, her grandparents, and an inventory of everything in her closet.
You do not appear to understand that the defense does not have to choose one or the other. It can do both and there is no valid reason to pass up the immunity hearing, if the defense has a case.
Your reference to a “fiasco” with W8 is nonsense. There is no evidence that she lied and certainly no evidence that she committed perjury. The prosecution’s case is so strong that they do not even need her to prove absence of self-defense.
You have been drinking too much Kool-Aid.
Professor,
LOL! Your posts are driving it home and some folks can’t handle it. *cabbage patch* *cabbage patch*
the ONLY reason i see to avoid an immunity hearing is they have NO defense on any level, mom knows he CANT possibly show it was self defense, ALL the evidence screams it was NOT!
so they dont want that reality known to the public before the actual trial.
‘the show must go on’ pink floyd, the wall
Citrus is a popular flavor in Florida.
no need to be insulting; we will see.
yes, understood. at least three reasons were given to back up the calculated strategy to give up the immunity hearing. numbers 4 and 5 are cost and time.
also, just to let you know, i prefer beer to the preferred drink of Jim Jones’ sycophants!
there was a fiasco? doggone it, I missed the fiasco!!! I hate it when that happens
tzar says
maybe he meant fiesta? either way, we both missed out. we are such boring wallflowers, aren’t we?
keep it up
Worse than missing the prom, for sure.
Bullshit
Sorry did mean to send this was taking to my son about stevie g comment
You got that right !! You really can’t make a “…calculated stradegy…” with nothing.
Games…they’re playing games….
Strategy? ROFL
So their strategy is massacring the media with claims and allegations and avoid having a reasonable debate towards the truth of the matter? ROFL
What w8 fiasco?
I bet MOM wont event bring it up at trial because if he goes hard toward w8 over a moot issue, he’s going to look like a hypocrite when he tries to downplay Fogenhats’ lack of hospital and medical treatment records because by using that argument, the material issue of Fogen’s “alleged Black dynamite attack injuries” and his lack of actual injuries and hospital records to back up his claims is just going to be funny when he backpeddles and attempts to sell snake oil
And what proof do they have she lied? If you make accusations with no proof, you are assuming facts not in evidence and it can be objected on those grounds
When the defense asked the state for her medical records, the state stated there were no medical records to obtain. That answer is so ambiguous, there could be a myriad of reasons they do not have them to have the defense obtain. One, the state never bothered to look it up because it is moot. Two, the witness could have refused, based on threats from Fogen’s gang members. Besides, it is a moot issue.
IMO, it is a can of worms, better left unopened LOL
I personally feel the state gave an ambiguous answer and set a trap for the defense to make a big deal out of hospital records in court, then BDLR can go “now that you bring it up, where are your medical records of proof of these alleged sustained injuries?”
You missed the “…calculated…” part.
The begging for funds was fairly “calculated” LMAO
@ stevie g. re:
That is downright defamatory!
You sound very opinionated but simultaneously woefully uninformed and/or illogical.
Judges are SUPPOSED TO plan for trials on their dockets. That’s their job! The fact that Judge Nelson is doing her job is to her credit – not evidence of any “bias.” She has not “telegraphed” anything other than that this case is proceeding towards a trial.
EARTH TO STEVIE G: The defense HAS NOT MADE any per-trial motion to dismiss on immunity grounds. Absent such a defense motion, logistical preparation for the trial is entirely appropriate – and definitely not evidence of bias!
SMH.
The American Thinker has an article lauding the Treepers and trumpeting their theories as fact (all the while slamming the MSM and Obama). Made me wonder if O’Mara had a connection. Article is here: http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/03/why_florida_persists_in_the_zimmerman_prosecution.html
eh…thanks but no thanks
Evidently they don’t really “Think” over their. They have way to many facts wrong…starting with weights…..
Why Florida persists in prosecution?
Fogenhats killed a kid after stalking him and calling him a fucking punk and threatening the kid’s safety
I dont think a whole article is even necessary
I don’t know about this publication, but just reading one article and a few comments, it’s clearly a racist rag. They still take as fact all the bullshit from w6 about MMA style blows.
Sent from my iPod
Apparently the AmericanThinker hasn’t done much thinking.
I love that the Internet is forever. Now Jack Cashill will be remembered as the biggest dumbass to write about this case.
And write he will…if you made it to the bottom of this hilarity of an article it states…
Jack Cashill is working on his latest book, If I Had A Son: Race, Guns, and the Railroading of George Zimmerman
Seriously, why aren’t any intelligent people writing books about this case? THAT’S IT! Professor needs to stop blogging and start writing.
lynn says
i’m sure that is why we have not heard from fred in a couple of days. he’s writing a book! working title “I’ve Been Working on the Railrod”.
Speaking of books, Amazon lists a book that’s due out later this month. The title is “Trayvon Martin, the Whole Story” and the author is Andrew B. Aames. Does anyone know anything about the book or the author?
Brandi Kansas City says:
March 11, 2013 at 3:33 pm
Colin,
I do see the recoil happening. Thanks for answering the question. We have heard much from the defense and little from the pros. Totally makes sense
Lots of people have speculated the mark across the bridge of hos nose.And bleeding may have been from recoil.
He said he used his right hand to shoot.
An it was a one handed shot with his weaker hand.
As he tells us himself he had to take carefull aim to avoid shooting his own left hand.
An since he shot Trayvon through straight through his hearts right chamber.
His left hand had to be within Trayvons chest area in order for him to have to avoid it whilst aiming.
He of course had his strong left dominant hand restraining the Child
If you havent already I urge you to watch LMPappa 4 vt carboard an bs.
Wich explains much better than I could even attempt.
How this Child Trayvon was murdered.
thats his chanell so just click on to the relevan vt.
Mind you all his vts are relevant.
He also contradicts himself in the same interview with the officer who does the stress test. Fogen makes a comment about “I knew I was on him.”, in reference to where the gun was. Then he changes that in his reenactment and other interviews saying he thought he missed and that TM was giving up.
Collin,
I have seen all of llmpappas videos I am a huge fan of his work. I think you are completely right I see it happening and I have shot that gun but would never buy the pos. I believe the compacting of it for c&c causes the major recoil it being an automatic causes it the jerk back instead of raising the arms. The height difference and the right hand issue could see it happening as you suggest ALL DAY LONG. I am no gun expert but there are not many guns I haven’t shot. Good one and very likely in my opinion.
I think it starts with pt one is pappas response then pt 2 an pt 3 an concludes pt4 is order to watch them in..
peaceout.
lurker says:
March 11, 2013 at 5:10 pm
The American Thinker has an article lauding the Treepers and trumpeting their theories as fact (all the while slamming the MSM and Obama). Made me wonder if O’Mara had a connection. Article is here: http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/03/why_florida_persists_in
I dont even bother to read any of there posts on fogen.
However months an months ago I checked there site out.
An I happened to read an article written about the Ambasadors Murders an staff over in Lebanon.
It was a well written an faciating article .
Off wich I was convinced most of it was dissinformation
From far right conspiritst nutjobs.
An this was some 6 weeks beforethe exact same storys started to apear in the M S M.
An if anything not only was everything they reported factual an on point.
The true story was even worse that what Id written of as propa ganda anti Obama Hillary anti Democratic conservitve rhetoric.
So just shows you even rabid dogs can have there day.
Even a broken clock is right twice every 24 hours.
OOPS re above I mean Libiya.
this should be a future case study of WHY you keep your mouth shut until you talk to a lawyer before answering any questions from police…….his own words are all it takes to convict him, the physical evidence in every instance shows his statements to police to be pure FICTION and a violation of the law.
well…I think it is a better case study of why we should respect other people’s civil rights and not overstep out legal authority,
I mean not all of us have:
-A beat cop buddy to tamper with witnesses, to ignore SOP and do a drug test on us, the shooter.
-A lead detective buddy, to tamper with witnesses and to win the good fight against his own conscience in order to repeatedly downgrade from the proper charges.
-A chief of police buddy covering up for us, to announce to the world that we are squeaky clean when we are not and to instruct his police department to carry out an “investigation” that would have outraged the keystone cops.
-A DA buddy to dismiss the already erroneously reduced charges and most likely with the full knowledge that our ccw was invalid.
-A Former police officer and current air marshal buddy, with experience and connections in accessing juvenile school records, which can be useful if we just shot a kid and may need some dirt leaked out about said kid, but most importantly this buddy can show up at the crime scene and direct us as to what to say to protect our interest and maybe even direct the Zeal of his former police officer buddies now running the investigation. I mean he is on a first name basis with Ole chief “billy”.
Not all of us have that
In a regular world Zimmerman-may his name be forgotten-could have been as quiet as a church mouse and he would have been arrested, drug tested, his hands tested for blood, his clothes confiscated, his car localized and confiscated, the witnesses to his crime untampered and had a real investigation carried out and he would have been told to go tell it to the judge. And as you can see even with a cold crime scene and a police department staunchly entranced and ready to defend him, the special prosecutor was still able to collect enough evidence for him to be tried and convicted, no matter how quiet he would have been.
So the takeaway from this case for me is not learn to be quiet after murdering innocent people while violating their civil rights, it’s learn to leave innocent people alone, stay in your truck, don’t touch other people’s children, offer that kid in he rain a ride, don’t be a fucking asshole!
*entrenched not entranced, lol
Lovely and eloquent.
*not do a drug test
oops
What Tzar says.
@Tzar
Well said.
Tzar Offer the kid a ride home.Of all the comments I ever read here I especially love that one.It points out fogen’s warped mind and how nice he could have been and how nice you are as we all should be.I wish somehow he could get asked why he didn’t offer the kid a ride but I know that can’t happen.
I wished pastor Terry Jones had asked the killer that when he visited him jail, It just plain seems like the Christian thing to do.
I think this is a case of making better choices
If he would have left the kid alone, the kid would still not be committing crimes and would be alive going to college, and he would still be in his truck and not worry about litigation for the rest of his life
That too. From our little window into Fogen’s life, we see a collection of poor choices that he made. Not that he always made poor choices, but he made some whoppers on 26 February, 2012.
Amen.
Bill, keeping one’s mouth shut is a virtue in far more than murder cases. Martha Stewart ended up doing time, not for insider trading on which she was originally accused, but for lying to a federal agent.
They are very good at getting targets to lie about something, anything, to a point where it can become entrapment. Had Stewart refused to talk before lining up a lawyer, her problems would have been minimized. Something we all should remember when making a killing in the stock market based on a tip from our plumber.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-zimmerman-hearing-20130305,0,6577779.story
I know you all have or may have read thus article..I’m posting it because my view after reading it is the defense is not as confident as others perceive their case to be. The defendant doesnt want any parts of the judge, he wants his peers. George has no confidence in his own story, is not man enough to sit in the box and tell what he says is his truth.
Then there is this… “Nearly 70% of defendants using a stand-your-ground defense have gone free since the law passed in 2005, according to a Tampa Bay Times investigation. The same analysis found that the odds of proving a successful self-defense claim go up to 73% if the victim is black.” I took this from the end of the article, so I’m wondering if fact will play apart in this case or the color of the victims skin.
@Romaine. In some SYG cases, the victim and defendant were both Black. The same is true for cases where the victim and defendant are both White. If I’m not mistaken, the statistics neither include those SYG cases where the victim is not killed.
@ Xena I questioned the other portions of the stats too, i say post all or none at all. Why just give the black stats?
I will bet that in mot of those SYG cases where the defendant gets off, the victim WAS ARMED.
@Malisha
There are two I read and remember where the victims were not armed. In one case, the victim was forcing his way into the car of the person who shot him. The parties had prior knowledge of each other.
The other case involves two school boys. One had maliciously bullied the other (who was learning disabled) for months. When the one being bullied got off the bus earlier than his stop to avoid a fight with the bully, the bully got off too, started a fight, and was stabbed dead. The parties had prior knowledge of each other.
IIRC, in one case, the defendant took the gun from the victim who had threatened him with it. The parties had prior knowledge of each other.
Xena- I hope there were no repercussions for killing a bully.
Sent from my iPod
@Cielo62
None have been reported. That case involved teens. When the head is cut-off, the body has no “brain” to follow.
Some self defense cases truly are self defense. I feel bad for the teen that had to kill just to be free from living in fear. Nobody should live like that.
Sent from my iPod
At a 30% chance of failure
and to succeed at going for only 51% of evidence really says a lot about FogenHitler
So his “decision” is to try and bring reasonable doubt when there is no doubt that “he’s the guy” LOL
I wonder what Omara is going to do about the soft spoken teacher, w18
a part two words not one
It’s amazing how some people (not here) either don’t get it or are being willfully ignorant. What’s going on with the defense now is a GIGANTIC clue about the state of their case. All spin and continual media pr.
As the Prof said above (paraphrasing), why wouldn’t they go for an immunity hearing? Let’s step back for a second and consider that they would get two bites at the apple with no penalty. Meaning an immunity hearing, and if they lost, a trial. If your life was on the line wouldn’t you take as many chances as you could get? Instead they tossed one away are are trying to coverup that fact with the “combining” nonsense.
Even with the lower standard of proof, GZ is so suspect that they can’t even go there. Remember when MOM tried to have GZ testify without being crossed at a simple bail hearing!?
What should be another big clue is that, from a legal perspective, it appears that the defense hasn’t done much actual real defense work. Sure, they’ve filed plenty of mostly poorly written and reasoned motions and have gotten lucky on occasion (JL removal – though I doubt they think that now) It’s remarkable that there are still major witnesses who haven’t been deposed yet while they file going nowhere requests to the FBI and Facebook and dubious lawsuits against media entities.
Well said. In all reality an Immunity hearing should have been filed for back in May of last year. But Nooooooooooooooo !! O’ Mara knows everything, or is it Fogen knows everything.
as lonnie so eloquently states
]====>TICK TOCK<====[
@Romaine,
I saw that and forgot to mention it on my point above. Thanks. So you have a 70-73% chance of success, of not even going to trial, and you throw it away? It’s obvious what’s up with the defense.
Professor, what if the jury is hung?
If the jury cannot reach a unanimous verdict, Judge Nelson will have to declare a mistrial. The prosecution would then have the option to retry the case, plea bargain with the defendant, or dismiss it.
They would have to be buried.
(Sorry, couldn’t resist)
My opinion is that it would be retried. But I meant, could the defense have their immunity hearing after a mistrial, and if they did, how will the mistrial affect the immunity hearing, if at all?
But if they were hanged we could have them cremated, right?
: – )
unitron
My cultural favorite is air burial.
Sent from my iPod
You could have made a much worse joke.
onlyIamunitron, if you ever discover Jeralyn posting her announced 15 pages assessment of the ABC audio file + witness #8 & Crump one of her obsessions from early on in the forum, I would appreciate a link or hint. Mind you to a certain degree I can understand considering her position. I am really curious:
On a separate note, Florida’s legislature is now contemplating changing law to require a unanimity from jury on death penalty cases.
They should abolish it, but this is a step in the right direction.
Yes. In Florida, there’s no greater argument for abolishing the death penalty than with Pitts and Lee, a flaming example of good ol’ boy racism. Thankfully these two innocent black men were saved in large part by Pulitzer prize winning investigative reporter Gene Miller of the Miami Herald. Must admit, however, that few lamented white serial killer Ted Bundy’s final date with Old Sparky at Raiford.
I still remember the crowds from Ted Bundy, for once, they said, those that supported throwing the switch on Bundy well outnumbered death penalty opponents that were gathered outside the prison.
I’m sorry to say that I believe the death penalty is applicable for psychopaths like Bundy. A life in a cage is no life at all.
Sent from my iPod
Professor,my questoin is: During a combined hearing will the defense argue the defendants immunity based on self defense and the jury be required to vote on the defendants immunity and or guilt of murder2? I really hope i’m making sense here
Questions like that highlight the Professor’s position that a combined process is “a terrible idea.”
Professor I see my answer in your post, I’ll have to wait and see which way the judge decides things will go. ty
I do not understand the SYG
So only the judge can grant it in a pretrial SYG hearing, but the jury can’t grant it at a trial?
It seems the defense is all smoke and mirrors to me, even Jose Baez
Baez claimed the case was weak but he reportedly denied to be Fogen’s attorney for the trial
I also do not get if he was so sure, why not just have the SYG hearing and get it over with?
I am really confused by it all
I read the statute and considering the facts of the case and the evidence, it does not apply, just as Jeb Bush stated, and he signed off on the bloodclot statute
It does not come off as self defense to me, because, all Fogen did was chase, stalk, threaten, attack, kill, and then stage and manipulate and try to lie
How can you claim self defense when all that was done was attack?
There’s too much nonsense and no sensibility at all with this case IMO
IMO any other state or country, Fogen would be in prison and that is that, already
to June ‘m with you confused.
Be careful that you are not confusing the so-called “Stand Your Ground” provision of Florida’s Justifiable Use of Force law with it’s entirely separate immunity provision.
unitron
LOL another senseless contradiction, we should play a game, what’s your favorite contradiction for 100 Alex.
I like the:
“He looked like he was almost my age, he looked older” vs “he was skipping away” when was the last time you seen a grown ass man skip?
…and thought he was a grown man?
As if apologizing to the Martin family on the stand in a flat, sociopathic affect will save his azz. As if twisting his NEN call assessment that Trayvon was in his late teens is going to fly just because he said it in a courtroom.
Meh.
Love that expression on Judge Nelson’s face. LOVE *IT*
Oh bush, bush where arth thou?
Taffe say Zimmermain said IT’S COLD? Joe Oliver said it was GOON? I know what i heard and it was F___KING COON! Like it or not that is what Zimmerman said!
Yeah, I was thinking that. If you put the word Cold and Goon together you get the word Coon. So they know what was said but what they’re doing is field testing a LIE to see if it will stick and then they can move on with the “GZ isn’t racist” bullcrap. I was just told that if I heard the word “coon” then I must be racist. It’s just absurd to the point of comical that people wont acknowledge the truth.
If all you had to do to show you were not a racist was call some innocent kid a “fucking punk” instead of a “fucking coon,” there would BE no racists.
Damn, man, get real! (I said “greel.” I said “peel.” I said “spiel.” I said “punk.”)
All wrong !! SheLie and FogenPhoole had steak, baked potatoes and sauteed mushrooms and onions for dinner. Listen very carefully and you’ll hear a slight belch them “fucking rooms” like mushrooms. It’s coming…..some Zidiot will make that claim.
Race — Think it should be fucking shrooms to coordinate with the schruck
I’m telling ya, he belched up some stale sauteed mushrooms.
Listen carefully “…..uuurrrpp….fucking rooms…”
and, O’Mara and West once thought it was ‘GOLD’
LOL
One of the Outhousers insisted there were traffic cones in the area and Fogen tripped on a traffic cone and said, “Fucking cones.” In frustration, see? Tripped, see? Kinda like “skipped.”
Oh…..that would explain the new concrete in the MapQuest Satellite image……you know, the darker sections…just when thought we knew…..along comes a Zidiot explanation.
Just wondering, when George is sent to lock up, will he be housed with the whites, or will Jorge be with his Hispanic Hommies, or his Afro-Peruvian kin?
He won’t fit in with any group. With a name like Zimmerman it certainly won’t be with those good old Neo Nazi’s….that’s for sure and the only other Afro – Peruvian isn’t in prison….well, unless jr commits a crime………just sayin’
He will go back to being a white person and join the neo nazis
I wish he’d make up his mind. He was, he wasn’t, out of the dark, out of nowhere, from the bushes……when will it ever end ?
Thought he was skipping … or maybe he was just talking about skipping SYG.
just finished the series
all caught up
great work
Barking mad to think you can change your story on a faux news op-ed program and have anyone take you seriously.
His whole claim is filled with contradictions
On the phone call he claims he was at the clubhouse
Then on re-enactment day, he claims he parked his car at the T and Trayvon ran circles (the GPS records should put that allegation down)
Yep. LOL
What made you think of Looney Tunes, Papa?
Let’s look at the two characters in play, and it is strong evidence in of itself
Trayvon is a scrawny teenager who has never been in a fight in his whole life, no combat training, and had Skittles and a cellphone and some ice tea, got good grades, wrote graffiti on a locker once, may have smoked weed
Fogen beat up cops, beat up his ex, beat up a lady at his security job, molested and attempted to rape his cousin, victimized and bullied people at his job especially an Arab dude, talked about bullying and killing Mexicans and disparaging Mexicans, threatened a 8 year old boy and accused him of stealing a bike and cops confirmed the kid did not steal the bike, terrorize and threaten neighborhood and people with aggressive patrols, structure and hide money and passport, manipulate and lie to court and law enforcement, stalked and murdered a kid, had a gun and car and flashlights when stalking and murdering Trayvon
Of the two, the only person in danger of dying and great bodily harm with the kid with candy, not Fogenhats aka Wannabe Miami Vice
Is there really any male who has made it to high school without even 1 fight in their entire life?
I’m considered a good kid and I never bothered anybody, kinduv a loner and yet I got into 3 fights between 6th and 12th grade. The kids that didn’t get into fights were very friendly and social. If a “thug” like Trayvon would fight grown man that quick, he should’ve had a dozen fights in school by now to the point of being kicked out.
Rachel- yeah, my brother Nick never was in a fight in his life. In high school, he had glasses, braces and acne. Nerd to the max before being a nerd was cool. He never hit into a fight. I don’t remember fights being all that common in high school. I was much more belligerent than my brothers and I avoided fights. So I guess the fact that Trayvon was never in a fight is more the norm for normal kids.
Sent from my iPod
Is there a woman, either?
I can say that my dad was a cop and back in the 60′s that wasn’t cool having a “Pig” for a dad. I’s say almost every boy in my 1st – 8th grade class picked a fight with me about just that at one time or another. So the answer is probably, as far as boys…..at least in my school.
i spent many an afternoon waiting behind the gym for someone to come beat me up because of something i said. i was outspoken then about things i perceived as ‘wrong’ or ‘injustice’ and stood up to bullies who would pick on the autistic kid and the like. to make the decision to wait and miss my bus home meant a 10 mile walk carrying a 50 lb saxophone as i did not live in town, but was bussed in from the country.
not once did anyone show up to put their money where their mouth was. i just knew that i would not want to be thought of as the one who did not show up. when i look back, i see that my size (5’10″ and 160 lbs of muscle that threw hay bales alongside the men folk all summer) may have been a deterrent. there was also a collection of boys my age who could have told the girls who threatened me not to bother showing up, because they knew the humility of picking themselves off the ground when they somehow came into contact with my fists. (honest — i don’t know how that happened)
Faux McCoy~ always a soul for justice! With fists to match!
VERY well said Jun. Bravo.
OT: In the final chapter, today, of the scandal that pulled down former Mayor of Detroit Kwame Kilpatrick, the feds got 24 convictions on 30 counts, including corruption, racketeering, extortion and wire fraud. His best friend B. Ferguson was convicted on 9 of 11, and Kilpatick’s dad was found guilty of filing false taxes. Kilpatrick’s mother, who was a US Congresswoman at the time, was never implicated in any wrongdoing. However, she lost her seat in a failed reelection bid.
4 of IL last 7 govs. have gone to prison and we know former Congressman J. Jackson, jr and wife have just pleaded guilty, with sentences TBD.
I don’t what kind of rank and clout you need to get out from under a fed investigation – but it looks like SPD and Wolfinger might be a little short, based on the prosecutions listed above. I would be looking at getting my house in order, right about now. The feds won’t just look at Trayvon Martin’s case. They’ll use that as a starting point. (IMO)
But, just thinking how do you go after Wolfinger for corruption? What does that do for some 30 yrs. of prosecutions? Is that a nightmare even the DOJ doesn’t want to get entangled in? I don’t doubt Wolfinger is corrupt. What I wonder is, does the DOJ have more invested in it not coming to light, than in prosecuting it, given Wolfinger’s age, retired status and the unholy mess such scandal would unleash on the Florida Courts?
Hell, where’s Olivia Pope when you need her???
Hope you’re right, Nef. Wolfinger, in particular, needs to go under glare and misery of a federal probe, along with Lee and other Sanford officials who need to become unemployable and mired in debt defending their misdeeds.
Prosecutors have some type of protection I remember a case about a kid named Shareef Cousin where they had video of him at a basketball game at the time of the murder and witnesses and they still charged and convicted this 16yr old of murder. They even put him on death row. The prosecutor hid 3 of the witnesses across the street and they couldn’t be found to testify, then altered the time on the video. Then 3yrs later when the cat was out the bag and the judge said release him, the prosecutor offered a plea deal for life instead of death row if he confessed, which I believe he took.
This prosecutor got a 3week deferred disbarment which never happened because he became a judge. How would you like to be a defendant in his courtroom? If you’re willing to put an innocent 16yr to death under the guise of justice, this makes you worse than any murderer out there.
Who was the prosecutor in the Shareef Cousin case?
Where was that?
Does anyone know if Fogen’s fingerprints were found on Trayvon’s button?
Oooh, good question. I bet they never even checked.
Do you think it’s too late to look for fingerprints or palm prints on the button? I really would like to know the forensic status of the button…
Aside from not knowing the status of the button forensics eating ate me, I keep wondering why Fogen never said Trayvon appeared to be talking to himself? Fogen obviously didn’t see the earpiece because Trayvon had his hoodie on. Dee Dee did say Trayvon was speaking to her while Foggen was staring at him? If that’s so, Foggen would’ve had to have seen Trayvon’s mouth moving. My point is, Foggen seen everything on Trayvon, except his mouth moving… How can that be? My mind can go alot of places when, I think about all the false/negative assumptions Foggen would’ve made of Trayvon talking to himself.
I believe that’s why Fogen said “he looks like he’s on drugs or something.” Trayvon probably looked a bit odd walking along talking and perhaps even gesturing as he talked to W8.
There does not have to be any reason for Fogen to say “He looks like he’s on drugs or somepin” to Sean at NEN; Fogen was lying and creating his fantasy. Reality was not in issue.
GZ does not have to be a saint, he can do wrong, he can lie
But TM has to be a saint in order to have the right to live
Actually, the most powerful reason why I engage in the search for justice for Trayvon is because he was a SAINT! I have searched and found no fault with him. See, “he ran”. He did not walk away. No. “He ran” – in an effort to diffuse the situation and avoid trouble. Who does that?
George Zimmerman, you say you killed Trayvon Martin because you feared for your life, what you have yet to understand is that the fight and fear for your life is still on going. You now have to accept the fact that you must continue the fight you started on Feb. 26, 2012. You no longer have the use of your gun to defend your life. You must now get in the box and tell what you say is your truth, no matter how it is accepted; you must claim and honor the defense you so proudly acted out when you shot and killed Trayvon Martin. You must understand that your near to death experience is not going to end until you explain away all of what you consider to be the misinterpretation and mispresentaion of the events you claimed occured on that dreadful night. Only you George can tell the truth of how your head was injured, your nose bloodied, how you were close to losing conscientiousness due to being smothered by your victim, while maintaining the ability to conscientiously pull your gun and shoot your victim through the heart. Yet there is no dna on your victim from his brutal attack to your person. Explain to us all how you shot your victim with no remorse for his cries to live. Only you George can help us all to understand why this act of murder was necessary when you knew the police were enroute. Be the man of honor and pride you displayed on that night and make us all look foolish for not believing your retelling of events; that you must now fight to keep your life and freedom…A life and freedom you stole from Trayvon Martin…Again I say Get in the BOX George…Fear not the views and opinions of man, state what you claim your truths to be before the God you say willed you to live and Trayvon to die…for if it is GODS will, then you will maintain your freedom, resume your life knowing that you told the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, proving to us all that it is within GODS will that you not suffer the ill wills of man. Step out on that faith you spewed on the Hannity show. Now is the time for you to fight for your life. Man up and get in the BOX. I want to hear it from you directly in front of the judge and the jury, I want you to answer the questions, filling in the blanks, correcting the misunderstandings of your many statements. Get in the BOX George and defend yourself without your gun, fight for your life and your freedom the way Trayvon Martin did on that dark and rainy night when you took his life, the night the earth cried out in sorrow for the death of an innocent being for he too was GODS SON. George you believe your fight is with mans justice, but it is not, it is with GODS justice and I’ve never seen GODS justice fail. Your dark and rainy night awaits you George, on Feb. 26, 2012, you started a fight with GOD and he’s coming to finish it. You say Trayvon Martin punched you in the nose and knocked you on your ass, well you wait until Gods finishes “taringdatassup” you’ll know not to use his name to justify your wills and false prophecies.
I want to see you get up from this fight with a smug shrug and that sneaky grin.
Even if GZ doesn’t go to prison, he will never be free. God’s plan? Karma? Consequence? As it should be when you take the life of another and have no regrets.
Outstanding!
Good post!
Beautifully stated, an amazing post that shouldn’t be lost in the comment pile, but brought forward often.
Thank you
Romaine/ so eloquent and yet you know that GZ never does anything for himself! Doesn’t work to support himself, doesn’t explain himself, heck he can’t even cook for himself! Don’t be disappointed when he expects MOM to speak for him, even when it is not allowed.
Sent from my iPod
WOW, Romaine, YES!
I want a bumper sticker: Get in the BOX, George!
Great post!
My hope is that judge Nelson will simply consider the right to the hearing waived, if not held 45 days before trial as she ruled. I don’t see how this would be a trial or post trial motion. It was designed to prevent a trial from happening if found. Only by being heard before trial, can it fulfill this privilege.
The problem is the SYG statute creates a legal right or statutory right to an immunity hearing without providing a deadline within which to assert that right and a procedure to claim it.
Constitutional rights can be waived, so there is no question that the statutory right to an immunity hearing can be waived.
Failing to file a timely motion requesting an immunity hearing should constitute a waiver, but the absence of a deadline complicates figuring out what constitutes “timely.”
He cannot risk an immunity hearing.
IF he WINS IT, well and good, he gets away.
But if he LOSES IT, the trial is just a formality, because
* if immunity fails that means it was NOT self-defence
* he has admitted to doing the killing
THEREFORE it could only be MURDER.
He is better off just doing the trial and hope the jury can be confused enough to let him off.
I think an immunity hearing can be appealed because jeopardy has not attached
The SYG hearing does not determine if the person is convicted or not, therefore, it can be appealed
I think anyways LOL
I am really hoping that Judge Nelson will grant a hearing – because, among others, (a) GZ will go first in presenting evidence; (b) that will catapult GZ to the stand even before the trial starts; (c) GZ will be vanquished on the stand; (d) not taking the stand will have the same effect as being vanquished on the stand (e) immunity will be denied; (f) the prosecution is even better prepared, and can use his testimony at the immunity hearing during the trial, etc. ; (g) denial will send crippling shockwaves through the cult of GZ’s supporters; (h) the defense will be in disarray and heading towards an iceberg.
I think MOMs team is insinuating that GZ will be acquitted therefore the post trial immunity hearing is to protect GZ from civil liability, like what happened with OJ. Cleared of murder but owing millions in wrongful death judgements. GZ wants to be acquitted and keep all his ill gotten goodies.
Sent from my iPod
Of course O’ Mara has it wrong. The law says clearly that he must seek Immunity before a criminal trial. If he looses that he can be sued no matter what the criminal trial result is. he cannot get Fogen found not guilty THEN file for Immunity.
@ LLMPapa
Suggestion for reason #7: ‘The Shoes’ (the tips: smeared with dried dirt and grass. The back: squeaky clean).
Pleeeeeeease.
Yeah…. like these boots? Lyin’ when you outta be truthin”
LLMPapa, the best response to the punk-fest shillaree of yesterday! Excellent summation!
There’s that Duper’s smirk
@Tzar
Thanks for posting.
That explains it.
Contemptuous smirk, practiced speech, no movements, no real feeling, no sorrow, changes in tense.
Notice the pursed lips as Hannity asks him if he had a conscious thought when he shot Trayvon, looks like anger, then he explains away, and does the ‘grin’ like a shit eating dog, to quote today’s LLMPapa video note.
(video clip on this page, again Hannity interview used)
http://www.bodylanguagesuccess.com/2012/07/nonverbal-communication-analysis-2050.html
The POS smirked and smiled for the camera during that interview, and now the POS is sitting/standing in court crying. Karma is a real BITCH Fogen and, you haven’s cried all you’re going to before all is said and done. he cried like a BIG OVERGROWN baby when he was locked up the first time and that was just jail. I can’t imagine how he will react when he is convicted and face going to prison.
He will lose it totally and, he may really need that adult size diaper that his lying brother speaks about when this first happened. you all know this is what he said after not speaking to his brother for SEVERAL years.
When did he cry in court?
One question: Does anyone really think that, if GZ did not have that gun with him when he left his truck, that he would have been found dead on the grass that night when the police arrived? Him dead with Trayvon Martin doing what? Fleeing?
lonnie – that reminds me of something a favorite poster of mine said on the huffpost early on in this case … ‘so the watchman chased the unarmed teen all over the complex in self defense?’
i have loved that phrase and quote it as often as i can.
@Lonnie Starr. If GZ did not have a gun when he got out of his truck, and still decided to pursue and confront Trayvon, the police would have arrived to find Trayvon crying for help and GZ fleeing.
I don’t think FogenPhoole would have even called the police, let alone get out of his schruck and confront anyone.
He was on a mission that night.
Yeah but GZ wasn’t the one to pick the target. Someone else had been working on this project for a long time. The target they had been picking were being objected to and like Burgess, were being pulled out of harms way by being taken off the streets where possible. Finally, just by luck Trayvon arrived and whomever was behind all of this gave the go ahead. The plan to lure Trayvon out of the house on Sunday night was made operational, and they got George all liquored up and medicated and ready to go. They pointed GZ in the right direction, then had to stick around to ensure that he could catch his target, because lord knows GZ is no hunter. They had to practically put the kid in his hands and all but pull the trigger themselves. Once done the managed to “vanish” into the back ground, assuring GZ that strings had been pulled all the way to the top. Sure enough GZ kept his mouth shut about the others and got his walk, until the word got out.
Now that the fix has come undone, GZ has only fear for what might happen if he should talk. Meanwhile they keep telling him the Calvary is coming so hold tight.
We had this discussion last month and I see we still agree. He was on a mission. One day we’ll find out exactly who else……one day.
III=> Tick – Tock <=III
Here’s GZ planning to go shopping, as he says that he and his wife do every Sunday. He leaves home, but without any money? Then we learn that his wife, who normally goes with him to the store, isn’t even home?
Later we learn that MO is at the crime scene poking around while GZ is still there, sitting in the police car. Where is Shellie? Shouldn’t she be there? MO says that he “drafted” in behind her, when he coincidentally caught up with her, just before she coded herself in the back gate.
So let’s see. GZ asks a bystander to call his wife, and by some stroke of luck, after she calls MO, they wind up at the rear gate together. But, I don’t remember reading about her being in the crime scene like MO. So, either I’m missing something or MO didn’t draft in behind Shellie.
I’m convinced Osterliar was there already. I’m so sure of that I’d bet the farm. Phone Records…..Text Messages…..I’m sure he’s the one who was near Brandi’s house by design or coincidence, it matters not at the moment, who made sure Trayvon was sheparded back towards Fogen. Something keeps telling me that.
He’d be the one Fogen looked up to and be in some bs position to assure Fogen he’d get away with it. I could be wayyyyyyyy off, but when I run my theories and thoughts by my guys, I rarely get a “…naaaaaa, try again”
I’m convinced by the enhanced NEN call he had someone in his truck with him. When he slurs his words, it’s because he is distracted by someone there, not the medication. One of my guys also tells me the gun racking sound is a gun racking sound. The only difference is because the demo is with good equipment, the NEN call is an itty – bitty cell phone microphone. It’s quality, not a different sound……just better quality. I have mics for my PA that have that much of a differtence. Guitar pick – ups, effects pedals. Sound quality I know.
I’m with you on that. Mechanical devices not only have distinctive sounds that one can recognize them by. But they also have distinctive sound patterns that allows them to be recognized even when the expected frequencies aren’t present.
Say you have an item one, it’s a gun and it’s pattern is three distinctive clicks in a very close array, with the last one being just a bit louder and later than the other two clicks.
So, now, there’s a person out in the dark on a back lawn, they’re carrying a flashlight a phone and a gun. A mic picks up what sounds like that three click pattern. Do you suppose it might be the flashlight? Or that someone came out and tapped on a bowl with a spoon to offer a snack? I mean, sure there are a unimaginably long list of possible substitutes that could have created that same pattern, even if not so simply. But, it’s one hell of a lot more rational to imagine the gun being racked, either by the person or someone nearby with a similar item, than it is to imagine that the circus somehow showed up and produced this sound as one among many without the other sounds being heard.
Someone analyzed that sound and said that it could not be GZ racking the gun, because GZ would have had his hands full. Well, that doesn’t cover all the possibilities, since it could also be someone nearby either racking a similar weapon, or racking a different weapon that gives a somewhat similar sound.
Why suppose there is anyone else involved? Well, GZ has already told one very big lie about spotting Trayvon at Taaffe’s, and the reason he does this is to hide the fact that others were involved. Since, if he had coincidentally spotted Trayvon there, then no one would be left trying to guess why GZ begins hunting for Trayvon, before Trayvon has become visible to him.
GZ doesn’t want to admit to being notified because that means he’s on NW. But, because he carrying a weapon and because he’s following a suspect, he cannot claim the statutory protections that Florida’s law has provided for NW’er’s.
Trouble is, because he’s in no position to claim legal NW protection provided by statute, he is also in no position to claim protection under SYG or SD either, because, the only way to lose your NW protection is, you have to be the aggressor!
One of the “experts” who said Fogen could not possibly have charged his pistol because he didn’t have enough hands I shredded. You can push the slide against almost any object, like your hip ?? and slide the handle to rack it. I did just that with all of my pistols to prove it before I even responded.
Race……A good way to put a bullet through your foot also……
No argument here. There was a shootout involving cops and a bank holdup and the news crew caught on of the cops who had his right hand or wrist shot and twice he dropped the mag out and loaded and racked one handed.
Which says that those could very well be pistol handling sounds we hear on the NEN tape. There is certainly a whole lot of unexplained sounds, for a lone person moving around, without any intent to do anything more than walk around.
If GZ is such a truth teller, why hasn’t he, or didn’t he offer to explain all these strange sounds? Surely he had to hear them, since they appear on his very own call recordings.
Instead of telling the police the truth about the events, he attempts to paint a very different picture, until other evidence, unexpectedly obtained from that night, forces him to attempt to change his story.
Even a witness who attempts to support GZ’s fable of the nights events, insists that his story is the truth, until he’s confronted with newly discovered evidence, he never believed would be discovered. Then he too is forced to make dramatic alterations to his once vigorously asserted testimony. Leaving GZ alone with his assertions of a fictitious engagement, that forms the foundation of his self defense claims.
Well said and you are reading my mind. I see SM has a problem with all of us, especially you and I agreeing on things.
Lonnie- but why Trayvon? Bad luck? Wrong place at the wrong time?
Sent from my iPod
That is what is so difficult to figure out. I’ve gotten the points laid out for us to pick up, by people who have dug pretty deeply into the community and the towns affairs. There was a couple of things going on, that could have used a target to emphasize and/or create a message to be controlled. There appears to have been quite a bit of money in the offing as well. So that could also be a motive, above and beyond the mere hatred that Supremacist normally carry.
“Mechanically” the only cause that appears to be proximal, seems to be a rather strange sequence of events surrounding 2/6/12 and 2/7/12 involving Burgess, Ransberg (the white) and the two other blacks in the “crew”, coupled with the recovery of a 3k laptop and a widescreen phone that the SPD claims was being used to traffic in stolen merchandise. I mean wow, any number of scenarios might yield a motive for someone being killed over that. Including someone who had nothing to do with any of it at all, being point to as a “fall guy”.
Since I can’t believe that GZ did not know that attacking a NW person, in the performance of their duties or on their way to or from meetings, was a state crime, I can no longer assert that GZ killed Trayvon to escape detection of his folly in apprehending him.
So now I need something more, and that is and will be much more difficult to find. But to the top of my list now is that Trayvon was being used by someone as a fall guy, to cover up their own mistakes or failures and such. It would go something like, perhaps: Ransberg having lost the 3k laptop and phone, is afraid to admit it to GZ, so instead he blames it on somebody else, not want to alert GZ that the police have it and setting off some other unwanted reaction. So as the month drags on, Ransberg is stalling GZ and Burgess is reporting it to his handler. The cops figure out that Burgess is likely to be discovered as a snitch so they “pull him”. Later on in the month Ransberg discovers Trayvon’s arrival at RATL and decides this will be his fall guy, so he gives Trayvon up to GZ as the guy who stole the widescreen cell phone, GZ must have it back because his stuff is on there. So, Ransberg, who I’ve tracked down to probably living with Burgess, is in an ideal position to set Trayvon up.
So, a theory would go something like that, but of course, there’s very little to no evidence for any of that and there are a zillion other speculations that could be as possible or work even better. We’ll just have to wait and see. It’s too bad the way things happen, that an ongoing bit of trouble could cause a killing days weeks or even months later. But that’s the way things work. Maybe the SP got lucky and managed to track down Ransberg through Burgess and the SPD still had that wide screen phone. Of course, if the police were recovering it on behalf of one of their numbers, who they had reason to believe the name of whom was appearing in ways that it should not, then the phone is probably gone.
The best way to proceed in this case is to first get GZ buried, then drag him back and pile on more, so his 30 years becomes something like 75 or 80, then maybe he’ll decide he’d best talk.
@Tzar, go look at the fith video that stateoftheinternet posted on You/tube at the 02/05/13 hearing where his motion to continue his trial was denied and you will see it. also, go to Ben “Justice 4 Trayvon” Crump’s facebook page or it’s either on dothprotesttomuch’s facebook page and there is another photo of him in court crying. in Trent’s video #5, his baby sitter stands in frot of him so that the camera doesn’t get a very good view of him crying but, it’s there none the less.
thanks
“Since I can’t believe that GZ did not know that attacking a NW person, in the performance of their duties or on their way to or from meetings, was a state crime, I can no longer assert that GZ killed Trayvon to escape detection of his folly in apprehending him.”
Lonnie,
But, why would GZ even be covered by this law? First of all, he did not verbally identify himself as NW, and he was not visually identifiable as such (no uniform associated with the post, and apparently no badge or other id).
Second, and even more importantly, by leaving his truck and following Trayvon, especially with a gun, he was doing what NW rules specifically warn NOT to do. One would hope that this would mean that his actions could not be considered “in the performance of his duties” as a NW person.
That is exactly right, he isn’t covered by this law, nor should he be covered by it. But…
Since all it requires, to obtain coverage by it, is a claim that he identified himself. Without a homicide to raise the temperature of any investigation, it’s entirely likely that police efforts to suppress the matter would succeed. Things could have been ended with a round of apologies and promises not to do it again. Meaning that had detaining Trayvon been all GZ had intended to do, this law provided him with an easy to reach escape hatch. His word against Trayvon’s word that he had identified himself and he’s off Scot free.
That means that he either did not want to identify himself, or he wanted to kill or both. So, this law, mean to defend NW’s actually cripple the rogue NW’s because it offers them cover, but only if they identify themselves. Making GZ’s failure to identify himself ever more suspicious and devastatingly incriminating.
Here we had been thinking that identifying himself as NW was necessary to prevent Trayvon from continuing to fear him. Now, we discover it was also necessary for fogen to obtain the additional protection the law was offering him. So that now, not only did he maintain and escalate a dangerously hostile condition he created, he also slapped aside the laws protection of himself, by refusing to identify himself as well. Thereby heaping failure on top of failure to obtain this criminal outcome.
I am not a violent person, but when I see that smirk, I want to slap it into next week. That smirk just does something to me inside that I can’t explain but makes me SOOOOOOOO angry!
@Rachael
You and me both.
X 3 -4 – 5 – and Jeff makes it unanimous here at the present time at 6 more.
Me too, Rachael.
His brother shows the same smirk when he does interviews. The entire family is truly evil. They have no remorse and are so sure that this will blow over.
Fogenhats and Junior have the same evil sinister smile this sadistic murderer did in Hong Kong, known as “Emperor”. He started a gang and tortured a kid to death for trying to get one of his victims to go to the cops.
That’s a shiz-eating grin all right. That’s one of those guilt grins.
It’s the grin of a full blown narcissist.
Any idea as to how many diagnosable mental disorders he has ??
Which Black kids did GZ mentor?
J
oe Oliver: (see the videos above posted by ay2z, at 1:29 pm)
“As far as what happened with George before I met him, for me that’s irrelevant, because whatever happened before I met him, he grew immensely from it to be a kind, gentle, giving and caring individual – on whom I trusted with my own child”.
Might Joe Oliver’s children be the Black kids mentored by GZ? Given what happened with W9, should Joe Oliver be having a conversation with is “17yrs old daughter”? Are Joe Oliver’s children considered “Black”?
typo – one (not on) whom I trusted with my own child”.
Aha … worth serious consideration.
Well, he says he trusted his daughter with the nameless one, wonder if he shoulda done that?
Osterman said Shellie and her hubby ‘did nothing but’ spend all their time and money to mentor black kids.
What money? Oh, you mean the money these deadbeats should have been using to pay rent, utilities and other basics? Plus, I’m still curious about what wisdom this pair of grifters thought they possessed to share …
trained observer says
all i can say is that i have quite a long list of what i would not want them to teach my children. i started to list them, but it’s easier to say ‘take a good long look at these folks, kids — if you’re smart, you’ll never do anything like they do”
Wisdom isn’t quite the right word to apply to these folks, and if Osterman isn’t gullible, he’s just like the killer, anger issues. (if you watch Osterman’s Fox interview, take a freeze frame of his facial expression, looks like pure momentary rage, when he talks about Billy Lee being fired.
Back to the money, here’s the MO’man quote (context Dr. PHil, MO’man says his friend wasn’t going to do things, like assault, manhandle cops and go drinking anymore, ie: wasn’t food or rent money, it was drinking money he was saving!).
Now this reveals something, doesn’t it? Osterman says “innocent youth”. So, the children they allegedly mentor, are innocent while young but when older, they lose their innocence by some unavoidable condition that makes the killer react the way he did to Trayvon? What is Osterman about, and were they two of a kind, feeding each other’s racism? Osterman hasn’t even got a basic grasp of English grammar, and shows anger when you watch him speak about certain things.
The killer’s “token white friend”– right.
*note the quote is pretty accurate to what Osterman said and how he spoke, bad grammar and all, except for the typo on ‘Nothing’. Emphasis added on ‘THOSE’ was because Osterman’s voice emphasized ‘those’ people.
On Osterman’s grammar woes (as per his Dr. Phil appearance) … if he gets called to the stand, forget worrying about whether jurors are black or white.
MOM better hope none of them are English teachers only too happy to write O off with a big fat F..
@ay2z
Yep you’re right.
The clip is no longer viewable. : (
http://newblackman.blogspot.com/2012/04/do-i-have-to-put-my-kid-in-tuxedo-van.html
Yeah, but I know where it is! It’s the Bill Maher and guests video, you know…. where Maher gets a good chuckle up front, at the Zimm’s expense.
@ay2z
THANK YOU FOR POSTING!!!!
you are most welcome! It’s time to re-visit some of these ‘standards’.
@ay2z
Yes, we should!!!
yes, thank you for posting. that is one clip i had not seen. van jones is delightful. even the token republican on the panel was reasonable and did not consider obama’s statement about ‘if i had a son …’ to be anything but positive. i remember how i felt when i heard obama say that and found it touching beyond belief – i have never understood those who would twist those words into anything sinister.
Faux McCoy- president Obama could say the weather was nice and there would be haters twisting that into a climate change mandate!
Sent from my iPod
@cielo62
>>>president Obama could say the weather was nice and there would be haters twisting that into a climate change mandate
Nah… they would say he was responsible for GLOBAL WARMING.
lol
@fauxmccoy
I couldn’t stop the tears when I heard Potus say that.
likewise, SG – it was heartfelt truth the man was stating. i’m sure he is thankful every day that he has daughters because if he did have a son, that son (like trayvon) would be handsome, smart, and tall – all of which are perceived to be threats in a bigot’s mind.
To anyone who says they KNOW what GZ said because they listened: That’s not good enough for a court of law. The ear (or more properly the audio processing of the brain) CAN play tricks.
I hear ‘coons’ too. But I wanted to be SURE. As leander noted, all words are made up of phonemes. So I isolated the phonemes of the mystery word in an audio editor. Then I went through the NEN call and isolated every clear instance where GZ uses the phonemes that make up ‘coons’ and ‘punks’ in other words. And I compared them to the phonemes of the mystery word. (That is, I’m not parsing the mystery word phonemes against some abstract ideal, but rather GZ’s own speech patterns in the same phone conversation.)
The comparison affirms the phoneme IDs leander noted above. GZ almost certainly said ‘coons’. There’s a miniscule possibility he said ‘goons’ and articulated it poorly so it came out sounding like ‘coons’. But, there is a 0% possibility that he said ‘punks.’
I put part of the analysis in the YT vid BB cited earlier, but I actually did a lot more that was too boring for YT. I am 100% sure of my findings. (For the record, I don’t think ‘punks’ or ‘coons’ makes a difference in evaluating GZ’s state of mind at the time of utterance, but it shows yet another lie on his part.)
And, for the 100th time: no, the click-clack sound on the NEN call is NOT a Kel-Tec PF9 being racked, cocked or whatever, no matter what it sounds like to you. The guy who made that video has a tin ear, and no clue how to read a waveform. The waveforms don’t lie. The sounds are not the same.
Yes, thanks on the KEl tec noise too, thought there was a dispute about that.
But we have to start with what we ‘hear’ and if we come to the evidence with a pre-set rational with what this person is saying, based on hearing it a dozen times in the media and being discussed, listen to it with a text overlay of what is being said according to the media writers, hear interpretations, hear a loop that completely changes what you hear, and ability to recognize the word in the same way.
Still, I’d think you can recognize component sounds, if not all, you can exclude some if the audio is clear enough. ‘K’ vs ‘N’, ‘oo’ vs ‘un’, hard sounds vs soft.
People may have different hearing abilitites, and may not hear some sounds the same as a person with normal hearing. But I agree that ‘punks’ with the explative, shows the killer’s attitude towards his victim.
I believe the evidence said one shot was fired and there were 6 bullets left in the gun. I then read, however, that there were originally 8 bullets in that gun. (That is possible for that gun.) And if so, the the sound I heard earlier in the 911 “killer shot” call was in fact probably a gunshot. To me, it makes sense that Fogen shot one warning shot to make Trayvon “fess up” to his wrongdoing, and when Trayvon failed to confess to his crimes, Fogen killed him. The police sure didn’t go looking for a second bullet casing when they were told by the perp that he only fired one shot. DID THEY? When the 911 operator asks, “how many shots…just one?” the answer sounded tentative: “…one” To me, there sounded like two. The first did NOT sound like a door slamming right after “Jeremy, get IN HERE!”
The magazine for Zimmerman’s gun holds 7 rounds.
If you put a full magazine in, work the slide to load one round in the chamber, take that magazine out and put another round in it and put it back in the gun, you have a total of 8 rounds available to you.
Because of the gun’s design, which incorporates what’s called a hammer block safety that prevents discharge from causes other than the trigger being pulled, the gun is “cocked” whenever there’s a round in the chamber.
In all likelihood it was already fully loaded with 8 rounds and ready to shoot as soon as someone pulled the trigger before Zimmerman left the house that night, and had probably been that way for quite some time.
If you carry a gun for protection it makes sense to be able to pull it out and fire “right now” instead of having to screw around with trying to load it or find a little safety lever, because an assailant is not going to wait patiently for you to get ready.
It certainly makes a lot more sense to already have it that way than to be out in the dark and the rain juggling a phone and a flashlight and trying to work the slide and then eject the magazine and pull your Barney Fife bullet out of your shirt pocket and load that into the magazine and put the magazine back in the gun.
If you fire once, the semi-automatic action utilizes the recoil to eject the shell and load the next round into the chamber, leaving 6 rounds in the magazine.
This was the state in which Zimmerman’s gun was when seized by Smith, 6 rounds in the magazine and a 7th in the chamber.
Only one shot fired.
unitron
“If you carry a gun for protection it makes sense to be able to pull it out and fire “right now” instead of having to screw around with trying to load it or find a little safety lever, because an assailant is not going to wait patiently for you to get ready.”
I won’t quote the statute, but that is illegal. Even the police cannot travel with one in the pipe. My dad was a cop for almost 30 years and I saw the law in print.
If you know your weapon, you don’t “… screw around with trying to load it or find a little safety lever,…” because when you hold a semi – auto pistol the safety if right where your thumb is.
If Fogen had actually taken the Fl mandated classes, he’d know that, it’s in the Fl handgun law handbook of which I had a copy of all of last year and quoted that courtesy of a customer of mine.
If that was the law in Florida on February 26th, 2012, they had all the evidence needed to arrest and charge him for that, irrespective of whether he fired in self-defense or not, and yet there’s never been any mention in any of the police reports of them considering that, Crump and co. never brought that up, Angela Corey never brought that up…
Perhaps the law in Florida last year differs from what it was many years ago in some other state.
unitron
Reality sucks ‘eh….No…no laws have changed.
Three little pigs…..
If you know there’s been no change in Florida law on that subject, then I assume you’ve had a look at it lately, and know where it can be found to be read.
Care to share?
unitron
I must have posted it 3 dozen times here and on HP.
Do your own homework
“Three Little Pigs”
i remember you posting this a number of times.
For the lfie of me I STILL don’t know why they haven’t charged him with carrying an illegal concelaed weapon, since no one has been able to produce a valid CCW for GZ. A “one in the pipe” violation pales in comparison with an illegal weapon, which I guess pales in comparison to second degree murder. STILL!! They should everything INCLUDING the kitchen sink at GZ. It will all stick like velcro.
This is not uncommon. Murder 2 puts him in prison for a long time.
racer~ not to mention that GZ didn’t have avalid CCW. At least not one anyone can locate.
Why should he worry about those pesky details ??
While I will certainly agree that it makes best sense to have all this loading, racking and packing the clip etc., done before hand, so as to be ready for action at the first sign of danger.
What puzzles me is, why bother to go through all that, then simply forget — when you become frightened or enter a dangerous situation — that you even have a weapon at all?
One moment GZ says TM has his hands in his waistband. obviously pointing to the possibility that TM has a gun. Then GZ gets out of his car to follow, what he believes could be an armed person, all the while completely forgetting that he had a firearm fully loaded and ready to fire.
GZ cannot see that the claimed punch, that supposedly broke his nose, could just as easily have been replaced with a knife attack or a gunshot?
So, if you’re so forgetful that you can forget you have a deadly weapon when you need it, you probably shouldn’t have one at all. Nor should you be putting yourself in a position to have to rely upon it, because a forgotten gun is as useful as no gun at all.
Zimmerman is never going to mistaken for the next Einstein, but the notion that he would wait until getting out on foot to stand there in the dark and the rain juggling a phone and a flashlight to go through the whole “work the slide, eject the magazine, fish around in your pockets for that extra bullet, put it in the magazine, and put the magazine back in the gun” routine is one that only makes sense to those who don’t find the sound of someone trying to get one of those stupid AA cell flashlights to work to be “ominous” and “sinister” and “foreboding” enough.
If it’s only someone banging a flashlight, the soundtrack of the movie isn’t dramatic enough.
unitron
In less than 25 action packed minutes filled with a loathsome and dangerous suspected-to-be-armed-villain and madman killer child martial arts expert, Phogan has forgotten that he took his wife’s weapon, which is packed to the hilt and ready to fire, loaded with especially deadly “sure kill” hollow point bullets.
That’s the story GZ is selling, and I’m having a difficult time, thinking that a jury is likely to believe it. Not that the jury will ever get to hear that version. I think MOM is best advised to do whatever it takes, to keep that version from in front of the jury, even at significant cost to his planned defense.
Lonnie………Not all hollow points are equal in their destructive power….the following is an example…..Does anyone know exactly what specific type of ammo fogen used?
I’m no expert, but it does seem to me that GZ’s ammo is especially deadly because the results established by the ME is that the bullet broke into fragments, which each went in their own direction, creating extended trails of hemorrhaging tissues rather than a single trail. Likely or not so likely?
Lonnie………broke into pieces?……….cheap hollow points…..
lonnie – in regards to your comments about the hollow points – that is precisely what they are designed to do.
Faux…..I disagree….watch the video I posted…….the bullet remains intact…..although doubled in diameter.
as i understand it, some are designed to expand (as you noted) but others are intended to fragment. i can look through my notes to see precisely what gz used, but i believe it was the fragmenting variety.
mind you, i am old school with weapons and ammo – i have a 5 shot H&R center load .38 with nothing fancy about it. it is what i am most comfortable shooting and it has served me well in times of need.
Lonnie……The basic purpose of a hollow point is for the bullet to EXPAND in diameter on hitting the target….up to double the diameter of the bullet when fired……..NOT to detonate like a grenade on impact.
BTW….hollow points are outlawed by the Geneva Convention for use in warfare………..
Bombs….grenades….all OK…..just don’t shoot the enemy with hollow points…….Gee….how thoughtful of them?
Yeah I got that, so GZ’s cheap ammo was more anti personnel/fragmentary device. Making it extraordinarily deadly.
“Yeah I got that, so GZ’s cheap ammo was more anti personnel/fragmentary device. Making it extraordinarily deadly.”
The reason for the average person carrying for self-defense or for a cop to use hollow points is not to increase damage to the target, although they do have that effect, but to decrease the risk of collateral damage.
When a hollow-point hits the target, it’s supposed to stop there. A regular bullet has a good chance of going right on through the target and hitting whatever or whoever is right behind it.
That’s usually not a desired outcome.
unitron
People have to remember that the gun racking noise is over a cell phone with a tiny mic. and from a distance. The test sound is with far superior equipment, making it slightly different.
Malisha, there were 6 in the clip, 1 in the chamber and 1 was fired for a total of 8.
It is not illegal in Florida to carry a chambered bullet in a firearm regardless of whether the carrier is LE or a civilian.
I used to be on the fence on this one until Whonze and Shannoninmiami (wouldn’t both make a good couple?) agreed with each other that GZ said “coon”. Whenever these two are in agreement regarding an issue, the chance of an error is zero,
lol!
@Searchingminds, GZ “IS” THE DOG in this case period! he said the words FUCKING COONS and, for anybody to say it was something different, I don’t know what to say about them. as I have said before, I have no special equipment when I listen to that *HORRIBLE* recording but, I hear him plain and simple say those words and he definitely didn’t say PUNKS!
Zimmerman uttered Fking coons. Full stop!
At trial, two audio experts will testify that GZ said “fucking coons”. The Prosecution will make the case to the jury that expert testimonies have GZ saying “fucking coons”. GZ has at least admitted to saying “fucking punks”. You may decide for yourselves who you believe – GZ who has a dog in the fight and has lied consistently throughout the investigation and trial, or very experienced, world renowned experts with impeccable records. In any case, the prosecution has met its burden of proving the second element of 2nd degree murder beyond reasonable doubt. “Fucking coons” and “fucking punks” have the same legal consequence in any 2nd degree murder case: depraved mind.
Question, are jurors allowed to listen and decide for themselves what they hear? Isn’t that almost like testing the evidence themselves, like smelling an air sample in evidence to decide it it would smell like x or y? Jurors may not hear sounds because they have a deficit in hearing ability that they may not even realize.
I think Corey used “punks” because Fogen admitted to “punks” and “punks” is all you need for “depraved mind” and “malice or ill will.” I’d have gone with “punks” too, in her situation.
When the cops stop someone for speeding and tell them they believed they were going 95 in a 55 zone, and ask, “How fast did YOU think you were going?” and the driver answers, “about 70,” the ticket can say “70″ and they’ll be nailed for speeding; having admitted it. Since Fogen admitted “punks” I would go with it and say, “there’s malice; there’s ill will; there’s a depraved mind.”
malisha – i made the same statement early on in this thread regarding why corey used ‘punks’ (it is what gz admitted to saying), it was damaging enough and used the speeding example to illustrate the point.
great minds think alike
Agree– charges of racism risk derailing the murder charge, and “Fucking…” before any word at all shows the agitation and ill-will, even depravity, in gz’s mind.
Never cursed in front of a woman, yaright.
Faux — I actually should have cited to your comment when I said that. It was your comment that gave me that idea — so your great mind led mine to the same conclusion. Thanks!
Searching Mind~ I’d rather spend the voice experts time on the voice analysis of the screams. THAT is way more damning than one expletive.
I agree that punks or coons or goons, none of it was said in terms of, “Oh, are you new here? Welcome to the neighborhood.” And as far as some machine telling me what I hear, medical transcriptionists have now become editors for voice recognition, which we affectionately call “voice wreck.”
But yeah, I’ll trust my ears and I agree, that regardless of what he said, in combination with the part about these assholes, they always get away…
____________________
I’m re-posting this from yesterday – because I trust my ears:\
Rachael says:
March 11, 2013 at 12:22 pm
That is good in theory – I suppose, but the reality of it just is not so.
I was actually going to give much more rise to the theory of the word being goon because of the merging sounds of fuckinGoon – so that was what I was ready to hear when I listened, thinking for certain that would be what I heard because of the way the sounds would merge and because I had already now made myself hear it in my head.
However, when I listened, I VERY clearly heard fucking coon. I did not have to listen again, it was clear as a bell the very first time. As someone who has listened to audio for a living for the last almost 20 years, I believe my ears and I know what I heard.
Like I said, in theory, your story makes sense, but when you actually listen, there is nothing, absolutely NOTHING that even remotely sounds like punks.
Again, I could understand goon/coon – similar sounds, especially with a word ending in ING in front of it – but there is NO way to get punk out of it. None. There is nothing in there that even remotely resembles punk. There is no p sound from the merging of KINGOON sounds, there is no uh sound like you would hear in pUHnk and there is no oo sound (like coon or goon) in punk.
After 20 years, I trust my ears.
It is not illegal in Florida to carry a chambered bullet in a firearm regardless of whether the carrier is LE or a civilian.
Sorry, posted in the wrong spot.
“It is not illegal in Florida to carry a chambered bullet in a firearm regardless of whether the carrier is LE or a civilian.”
I think there’s something in there about not transporting loaded rifles and shotguns in vehicles, but can find nothing about concealed carry pistols.
It does seem that if they could charge Zimmerman for that they would have.
unitron
Florida Statute 790.25 (p)(5)
POSSESSION IN PRIVATE CONVEYANCE.—Notwithstanding subsection (2), it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use. Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm other than a handgun anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use. Nothing herein contained shall be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed firearm or other weapon on the person. This subsection shall be liberally construed in favor of the lawful use, ownership, and possession of firearms and other weapons, including lawful self-defense as provided in s. 776.012.
My understanding is that it is legal to possess a loaded rifle or shotgun as long as it is secure in the conveyance. You cannot have the rifle on your lap or on the passenger seat. T
There is no indication that having a chambered bullet in a long gun is illegal.
Having said that, I have my doubts about whether SPD would have arrested Zimmerman even if it were illegal to have a chambered bullet. There was no will to arrest him.
“There was no will to arrest him.”
We all seem to agree on that, but nothing in the statute you posted addresses the condition of the firearm, that is “cocked and locked”
Last year I had possession of the FL handgun laws handbook loaned to me by a customer of mine who lived in FL. His dad is a police officer near Sanford, my dad was a cop for almost 30 years.
I posted quotes from that handbook at least 30 times last year for the Zidiots and it stated it is is unlawful to carry a concealed weapon in these conditions (A) (B) (C) etc. I don’t have the book at the moment having returned it BUT several CCW owners from FL and quite a few police officers here and elsewhere confirmed it. At least one person here remembers it.
The reason is obvious. Even the police cannot carry that way, it’s far to dangerous…..even the Feds can’t. My son’s godfather and a few customers of mine, including his ex – partner have all stated that is the Law.
Was that handbook one other than
“Florida Firearms — Law, Use & Ownership”
by Jon H. Gutmacher, Esq. ?
http://www.floridafirearmslaw.com/
unitron
I had a copy of that garbage also. That “Lawyer” writes like a high school freshman. Wrong book.
But he does say you are responsible for all actions if you use a firearm.
I did not quote the statute in its entirety, but here it is:
http://flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2012/790.06
My understanding is that as long as the loaded firearm is properly secured in a conveyance or concealed on one’s person, it is legal to carry it regardless of whether it has a chambered bullet. If it were not legal, the statute would address it.
racer – should you see this and have the chance, please drop me a line at fauxmccoy@yahoo.com.
it would be much appreciated.
Dave says:
March 12, 2013 at 7:37 am
Hi groans!
According to Mark Osterman, he and the killer used to practice together at a local range pretty regularly. Seeing that Osterman is an experienced police officer, I think it’s safe to assume that he showed the defendant at least the rudiments of shooting. I can’t recall whether this information came from an Osterman police interview, TV interview or his book.
As for the recoil from the 9mm cartridge, my knowledge comes from personal experience of firing hundred of rounds through a small. lightweight pistol (a Star BKS “Starlight”). It isn’t bad at all. The 9mm Luger cartridge has been in production since 1908 when it was adopted by the German army and is now the standard pistol and submachinegun cartridge of most of the world’s armed forces, largely because of its easily managed recoil.
The handgun was always considered a one-hand weapon until 30 or 40 years ago when the use of a two-handed stance gradually became standard, largely through the influence of writer and teacher Jeff Cooper (a prominent advocate of the .45 ACP, a far more powerful cartridge than the 9mm) as well as the popularity at the time of Magnum-class revolvers. With a medium strength cartidge like the 9mm, a two-handed grip is mainly to promote accuracy, not to protect oneself from facial cuts.
@
I have never fired a ristol or gun in my life.
I very much doubt fogen had ever practiced a shot where his VICTIM or TARGET was aprox two feet or less.
Where he has a grip of victims two upper garments close enough to the muzzle for contact.
An then primary target inches foot ?behind the clothing an fireing his round.
Also all this allegedlly happenened whilst he was on his back.
And its irrelevant wether that statements true in regards to your comment re his proficancy with an the light recoil of this projctile hollow point an pistol.
Although Im no expert I would think simple phicics tell you a bullet designed to expand on contact is going to do so.
Even if that contact is with streched out double layers of cotton.
An that would alone cause an unexpected kick back that fogen or any shooter would not be used to.
Because no matter how the fatal shot happened no .
NO ONE…
In there right mind is going to even attempt to recreate an regulary practice the kill shot fogen took that night.
What would be the point unless you were S A S or Seal type soldiers
An them guys would sooner slit your throat from behind than get into a wresttleing struggle an have to use a pistol to kill.
So respectfully I dont think fogen had any idea of what would happen or force of recoil when he made that one handed shot.
An the only reason back in the day revolvers where predominantly used one handed.
Was of quick an lethal access from a holster .
At there prefered hieght usealyl severall inches below there waist.
Thease where gun slingers quick draw experts an they practised constantly/
As there lives depended on it.
I see two women walking down the hill where I live and, if I were like Boss Hogg, I would have ran after them and asked, “what are you doing around here.” but, like Boss I don’t own any part of that street that is in front of my house and, people are free to walk where ever they please as long as it not private property.
You could have made a much worse joke
I did last night but I thing I lost conection when I posted it.
Got a cannot dissplay web page ect.
An the wee yellw bar saying no conection.
MY Answer to what if the jury is hung..
If its an all male jury then I suppose they will have happy Wifes.
colin – you crack me up! and it isn’t ‘effin shrooms’ either any more
Colin black- if we haven’t set up a “naughty boy” corner for you yet, we better get on it!! ( I thought the same but didn’t have the guts to post it!)
Sent from my iPod
Rachael says:
March 11, 2013 at 11:33 pm
Is there really any male who has made it to high school without even 1 fight in their entire life
@ I know of many not sure what your highscholl system.
But in the UK we attend Primary School till 11 or 12 depending on month of your birthdate.
You then go to secondry up un till 16 if you wish to stay on an do higher exams say for entrance into The best universitys then you can spend a further two years in full time schooling an leave secondry at 18.
That of course is public schooling private an boarding Schools follow the same age curiculum.
Ive known plenty of Males whom have never had a fight in there entire life includeing school.
Thers lots of guys not into violence for many differnt reasons.
An no not just because they may be gay but thats a good one.Also what you Americans brand nerds studious students dont have no reason to be involved in violence.
An often even the toughest kid in school whom could probably kick the shit out of all the pupils an half the teachers if they wanted to dont indulge in violence. sometimes
Except to halt it if there bullying upon a weaker kid.
As the reason thease kids are so tough resiliant an hate violence is because they are constantly exposed to it at home.
An as anyone whom has been phhysically abused knows you fear the person that hits you an may hate the person.
But you have zero respect for them or there violence as you know there bigger stronger an cowardly.
So they abhor violence especialy bullying an stop it if there able to.
But yes there are many many men never been involved if fistcuffs or violence.
The UK has a far more polite society in general, except when drinking! I noticed that people there tend to avoid confrontation whereas Americans tend to love confrontation.
Am finding it difficult to escape Fogen, no matter how hard I try.
On an unrelated matter, I Googled Edgar Allan Poe this morning, managing to spell it Allen. What popped up and caught my eye was an entry on Smirking Monkey posted by Mason, and apparently cross posted from the Leatheman Law. Had not seen or read this one before, and highly recommend:
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/mason/44884/zimmerman-once-upon-a-midnight-dreary-while-i-pondered-weak-and-weary
I also have a priceless cartoon of Edgar and The Raven being just a Poe boy a la Queen’s Bohemian Rhapsody (Poe-hemian Rhap?) , but it doesn’t seem to want to past on this blog.
Leatherman and paste … sticky key syndrome on laptop.
his theory is close to mine
Ah yes, the smirking chimp, all the rage during the Bush years.
Is that Racer’s video work? I remember him saying he was working on just such a thing.
Trained Observer, the video raises a question about the background sounds, the audible mechanical sounds. Why has no one speculated about windshield wipers on a rainy/drizzly night? If it’s a downpour or driving rain, then wipers would be needed continuously to drive or see, but if it’s drizzling and you are parked or driving very slowly as following behind, you can clear the windshield as needed. To see a real suspicious guy, wearing a button, white shoes, ‘GREY’ vs black hoodie, light coloured stone washed jeans or sweatpants, you might want to get a clear look through the windshield once in awhile.
What happened to the Honda Ridgeline between the time it was parked and driver exited and the next day? Did anyone check inside, document anything from outside, were the Target groceries inside the car, or at home, was S in the car as usual for the shopping trip?
If there was a walkie-talkie, there had to be two of them and unless someone else was along for the ride, one of the set would be still in the Honda. Why was it so critical to call SZ so quickly after the shooting? Was she within earshot of gunfire, or would she be close by and go see what was going on, or would she have been on that block and seen police cars arrive, and someone wanted her to stay away?
ay2z, We know that one of the cops at the scene ran license plate tags on the vehicles close to the scene and they knew one belonged to Zimmerman. The cops never secured the vehicle and left it there. Shellie came and took the vehicle. I don’t think she was there, I just can’t imagine not leaving the vehicle to check out a gunshot, knowing her husband had a gun and went after TM. She didn’t stay away, she arrived at the scene and met Osterman, whom she called. I just find it interesting that MO managed to arrive so quickly.
Their home, if she was there, wouldn’t have seen the cops arrive since their home wasn’t in view of the entrances
Something seems wrong: MO says he “drafted” in behind Shelly, when she arrives at RATL. But MO is walking around the scene alone before GZ is taken away? Shouldn’t SZ be there with MO trying to talk or at least wave to GZ? Or did I miss something?
I think you’re right. Look at how many issues have been uncovered already. Not issues, my bad….lies..I meant lies have been uncovered.
I know, let have the Mayor shine the Blushedbrown signal over Gotham City, she’ll show up in her records mobile and settle the issue for sure!
We all have a story to tell that reflects a lesson learned. Lies….
As I have said a thousand times “The truth never changes….but the lie always morphs”
When I was about 9 or 10, my brother & I raided an abandoned house in the woods behind our house. It was part of the “Underground Railway” helping escaped slave back when.
The owners sold it to the school board and it was abandoned for many years but there were all sorts of neat things kids could get into…….like gallons of paint. So my brother talked me into painting the trees, the old house, the well, and well…..we got quite a bit on us.
Then dad called us for dinner, dad……the gun toting cop, on that hot afternoon and asked what we had been doing…….well, when he asked if we had gotten into any mischief, like painting things we were “…..oh no, you said stay away from there..” Out came the mirror……the belt, and the turpentine……in just that order.
I learned pretty early in life about lying. Fogen…….’eh, not so much.
But how did Shelley know where he was. fogen told the guy to phone his wife and the guy said fogen said impatiently just tell her I shot someone.There was nothing about him saying anything about the location was there.
@Towerflower, how much do you want to bet, that it Mark Osterman’s car that tore out of that complex like a bat out of hell when that gun shot was fired. he was *THERE* and, when he got the call from SheLie, he came back acting as if he didn’t know what was going on.
I don’t know, I can see protecting your wife, but when your life is one the line (in term of years in prison), I can’t see lying to protect a friend who in the end has done more harm (by his book) than good.
I’d say it was critical that GZ make some sort of public announcement that his wife being contacted immediately because: If MO has been on the scene already, he has to arrive before 7pm, to avoid having to code his way in.
So the problem is how do you cover both SZ and MO? That announcement “call my wife” does the trick. She simply drives out (I don’t think you need a code or a key to leave), swings around and drives back in. MO can then say that he “drafted” in behind her, after coincidentally arriving at the same time she does. Problem solved.
Only thing wrong is it adds yet another coincidence to the pile. Notice how everything Team GZ needs to happen, manages to happen by coincidence? So that nothing needs to have been planned at all, all it took was for some 20 coincidences to happen at the right times, places and in the proper order. As the ancient Japanese saying goes “rots of ruck on that”.
@LLMPapa
Speechless……..
Thank you
Romaine and Papa.
Thank You Blushed, but the credit all belongs to Romaine.
All I did was listen to a still, small voice that spoke to me the MOMENT I read those words.
@Papa
well said.
@Romaine
The words fail me, to describe your post. Bravo!
Extraordinary. Thank you.
Well done!
Extraordinary on both your parts!!
Romaine, I hadn’t seen that comment yet. It’s direct, true, wise, and from the heart AND soul.
Papa, it’s the song selection. OMG. It can bring tears to my eyes under ordinary circumstances. But putting Romaine’s amazing message to that background song took the power of her words to a whole new dimension.
Thank you both!! (wiping my cheeks dry…)
Thank you! A wish come true, thanks Romaine and Papa.
wow llmpapa, ty for hearing that voice too. I was afraid to post it. I am now glad that i too listened to that still small voice…I love all that you do for Trayvon Martin. SMILE
@Romaine
Romans 12:19 (King James Version)
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
He’s Screwed !! Here and the afterlife.
@Racer
times 1,000,000
Yes racerod, he is. Like I said last night, even if he does not go to prison, he will never be free.
He took the life of another human being with no remorse.
He took God’s plan in vain. He will know God’s plan.
@bb, that verse from the BIBLE is oh so true and, this murdering lying lump of nothing will soon find that out. you don’t do wrong as expect to get by with it. another thing one shouldn’t do and get away with doing it is committing blasphemy, which is what he did when claimed that his murder was all GOD’S plan. he also tore the hell out of the 10 commandments. I sure wouldn’t want to be him, when the time for him to meet his maker comes.
@ladystclaire
He will answer in more ways than one. I truly believe that.
Strong, strong video using Romaine’s outstanding post, LLMPapa! Perfect music!
@bb, Indeed he does blushedbrown, indeed he does! he is also an on time GOD as well. we can all be assured that Fogen’s name is no where in the Lambs Book of Life but, Trayvon’s surely is.
Amen Romaine and Papa. Thank you both.
@LLMPAPA, the above video is simply priceless and, it brings tears to ones eyes. may GOD bless you now and always. JFTBM/JUNE 2013
Blushedbrown, now I will put the verse you quoted right here:
.
And here is ladystclaire’s post:
.
State what you claim your truths to be, before the God you say willed you to live and Trayvon to die.
My Lord! **goosebumps**
@LLMPapa and Romaine
I can’t stop crying. **weeping**
I am SO moved, also.
.
Romaine, what a contribution you have made with your words!
It’s powerful. The Spirit of the Living God.
I’m just catching up with todays’ comments. Romaine spoke a prophetic anointing, so I say “AMEN, AMEN, AMEN.” It’s all God’s plan that GZ is found guilty as charged and sentenced to life in prison.
It’s very anointed. It’s God speaking. Wow!
Makes me tingle all over!
YES!
BEAUTIFULLY done! And to one of my favorite spiritual songs as well. God’s justice will not fail. Hoodies up, hands joined in prayer.
Burns ode to a mouse in Scots.
Fourth verse last line Scots word fogage is used.
Wee, sleekit, cowran, tim’rous beastie,
O, what a panic’s in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi’ bickering brattle!
I wad be laith to rin an’ chase thee,
Wi’ murd’ring pattle!
I’m truly sorry Man’s dominion
Has broken Nature’s social union,
An’ justifies that ill opinion,
Which makes thee startle,
At me, thy poor, earth-born companion,
An’ fellow-mortal!
I doubt na, whyles, but thou may thieve;
What then? poor beastie, thou maun live!
A daimen-icker in a thrave ‘S a sma’ request:
I’ll get a blessin wi’ the lave,
An’ never miss’t!
Thy wee-bit housie, too, in ruin!
It’s silly wa’s the win’s are strewin!
An’ naething, now, to big a new ane,
O’ foggage green!
An’ bleak December’s winds ensuin,
Baith snell an’ keen!
Thou saw the fields laid bare an’ wast,
An’ weary Winter comin fast,
An’ cozie here, beneath the blast,
Thou thought to dwell,
Till crash! the cruel coulter past
Out thro’ thy cell.
That wee-bit heap o’ leaves an’ stibble,
Has cost thee monie a weary nibble!
Now thou’s turn’d out, for a’ thy trouble,
But house or hald.
To thole the Winter’s sleety dribble,
An’ cranreuch cauld!
But Mousie, thou are no thy-lane,
In proving foresight may be vain:
The best laid schemes o’ Mice an’ Men,
Gang aft agley,
An’ lea’e us nought but grief an’ pain,
For promis’d joy!
Still, thou art blest, compar’d wi’ me!
The present only toucheth thee:
But Och! I backward cast my e’e,
On prospects drear!
An’ forward, tho’ I canna see,
I guess an’ fear!
I was pondering about whyles and daimen icker, at least the whyles once you know makes sense. The daimen icker is much harder.
Maybe others wondered?
But actually interesting how well one guess most of the time.
sorry 4th line 4th verse.
Definition of FOGGAGE
Scottish
: a second growth of grass
Origin of FOGGAGE
Scots, from Middle English (Scots) fogage, from Medieval Latin fogagium, from Middle English fogge second growth of grass (probably of Scandinavian origin; akin to Norwegian fogg long grass on damp ground) + Medieval Latin -agium -age
First Known Use: 1775
Sounds kinda similar to a “potted palm,” too, doesn’t it?
Hahahaha foliage
@Rachael
Bwa ha ha ha ha
Had to do some shopping for school supplies for my son and they had “Potted Palms” on sale…..Palm Sunday is coming up. I”ll bet some ignorant Zidiot claims it to be a tribute to FogenPhoole.
@ racer – LOL!
Fascinating. The poem is powerful and I love the Scottish brogue.
Fogens green alright
Green eyed monster greed .
Anger issues =HULK
Likes to spend other peoples GREEN.
And in the UK the common name for an informer,
A Tittle tattle someone always on the phone to authourites about .
Other peoples buisness is a GRASS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informant
Right thats it am aft tae watch the fitba .
Am starting to hear the twilight zone theme again..
And he murdered a Child an left him lieing in the grass.
Off-topic but…
Everytime single time I listen to GZ’s call to NEN I get hung-up on what he says at the start of the call… “the Best address I can give you is….” (with an emphasis on BEST). Is there a “worst address” he could have given to NEN?
Doesn’t that make his claim of getting out of his vehicle “to get an address” sound even more bogus, since he has already provided NEN with an address ?
And what an address, “One-eleven Retreat View Circle” in a complex with 4-digit numbers only.
what if he was high?
Tzar, I believe that’s so, but it can’t be proven at trial or otherwise thanks to SPD failure to test the killer. I think he was over-doing the ADD amphetamines.
I think he was actually following Trayvon at that point and Trayvon was sheltering by the mailboxes.
He has a tendency to give the clubhouse address if he has a moving target. Just check some of the other calls he made. Although the other times he got the address right, and his speech wasn’t slurred.
I hope this gets picked up on!
He seemed highly distracted with what his ‘suspect’ was doing at that moment.
He’s cleverly trying to make it appear that he’s not familiar with RATL by saying 111 RVC when the correct address is 1111 RVC and he knows it. There are no three digit number addresses in RATL.
Also, he’s not reporting events contemporaneously in his NEN call, as many have assumed. Notice that he says “he’s hear now”, then later reports “he’s coming towards me”. So, where is “here”? Did Trayvon walk up to the truck, then walk back away and approach again? Probably not. So we have to lose the view that what the proven liar has already said during the NEN call, actually reflects what is going on at that point in time.
GZ is clearly using the NEN call to lay down a trail of deception.
Regarding the punks or coons issue, either term is not a nice thing to say to someone and Fogen still said it with venom and hatred and anger, and that is what he admitted to saying
Besides, the judge and jury can decide from themselves and the state can isolate it for the court to hear
I do not feel he said punks, but lets say for the sake of argument he did, it still does not mean he is not a racist…
FogenHitler still called Trayvon suspicious for walking while looking black, called him up to no good, on drugs, something wrong with him, based on his own twisted view of the world and he had no actual proof to back up his assertions, and decided Trayvon was not worth much, just a “fucking punk”, who should be terrorized, stalked, chased, confronted, attacked, threatened, killed, and then framed by the defendant for crimes the kid did not commit
Sounds pretty racist to me
As well as “these assholes, they always get away.” Which ones GZ? These? You mean the ones who “look like” punks/coons/goons/shrooms/cold/gold ones? The ones you called the police on all the other times? The ones who were not white?
Off on another tangent. I was poking around the GZLegal site and reading the judges response to subpoenas for social media. O’Mara requests a bunch of stuff from both Twitter and Facebook (including friend lists, logs, all posts, pictures and so forth and so on) for Trayvon AND for Witness #8. What floored me was seeing that he made (and was granted) the request from Januar 2011 though the present.
Just struck me as being WAAAAAY overbroad (and surprisd that the judge did not question), but, I am wondering what has been the precedent and any pertinent case law insofar as FB and twitter accounts. I know that there was a recent ruling that prospective employeyers can require passwords to get access. My thinking has been that FB and Twitter are likely to fight this, but, I d on’t know–have there been any previous cases?
facebook said they would fight it
twitter I dont know
I am fairly sure there is no proof there that will help FogenHitler
There’s also likely to be nothing in the records to use against w8 either
Jun by now Twitter has purged any information regarding Trayvon’s account(which they do with ALL closed/deleted accounts) so there is likely nothing for them to give, court order or no.
http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/bulletin/can-a-prospective-employer-ask-for-your-facebook-password/9366
https://www.facebook.com/safety/groups/law/guidelines/
They’re getting nothing. A supoena from the judge ain’t cutting it. They go by Federal law.
Requests can’t be overly-broad or vague
Must have name, ID badge#, law enforcement email address, direct contact phone# of LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL
Be part of an official criminal investigation
Have a Search Warrant…
AND have the Facebook ID number or username…
Wait…I thought the username is what they are trying to get from TM and DD??? lol
Not to mention that this request isn’t meant for criminal defendants. LOL
Cercando Luce says:
March 12, 2013 at 4:06 pm
And what an address, “One-eleven Retreat View Circle” in a complex with 4-digit numbers only.
Reply
Aw comeon guys 111 R V C .
It was the foggages ones best.
So what if it was actually 1111 r v c.
He was trying his best an if he was a thousand digits out he was trying.
Very Trieing.
His best an as we all know the fogages ones best is way more messed up.
Than an avarges persons worst.
And I was told that its rude non pc or whatever one calls it thease days.
To mock the mentaly inflicted..
Maybe he never learned to count above one hundred plus one an gave up.
Lets face it he was never going to need high number skills re his wage slips.
Big numbers just confuse an befuddle him.
Thats why he kept the 16 grand his attorney won for him.
In an employment disspute he didnt realise he also had to pay his lawer.
He thought he paid him when he gave him a hug at the end of winning the money.
Same way he couldnt pay his land lord rent big numbers .
Same thing with him being all potted plant at the bail hearing.
Well wth big numbers an the forgage one its litterlery true.
And I think it was rude of the judge to refer to him as a pottet plant.
As it true in his case an big numbers.
An see even the Judge was refering to forgage as greenery you know.I think Rabbie Burns may have been a soothsayer as well as a Poet.
Same way at the momment he is just pissin through money as if he is stuffing it in his cheeeks like a wee dormouse.
or feild mouse.
Big numbers he cannie cohptahend because all this Murdering a CHILD hath driven him round the bend.
Think that fits him to a T meself like.
Ken what I mean.
Ken what I mean. Wasn’t Ken know? That’s more close the the German languages; kennen in German. That’s the infinitive. I seem to vaguely remember that one.
yes, leander. although my family came to the US from scotland before we were a country, they lived in such isolated locations that some of the words and dialect my grandparents used make it much easier to understand colin’s poems.
ken – understand/know (to the best of my ability)
comprehend I mean………….
I comprehend– you’re better than Finnegan’s Wake!
LOL!
The photos taken that night at the police station show no signifigant injuries. All he has are scratches.It is obvious his nose was never broken.(although if trayvon had broken his nose he would have been well within his rights to do so)It’s in perfect shape. his eyes are not discolored in anyway they are normal. look at his lips. No bruising no swelling. Notice the complete absence of facial bruising. He claims he was beaten in the face 12 times or 30-40 times.obvioulsy it never happened. Look closely at those injuries on the back of his head. there is 1 round punture wound(he obvious bumped his head on something with a sharp point on it.he also has a straight 1 inch long cut.(something with a sharp edge on it.)He bumped his head on something with a point and a sharp edge. you will not get those from a sidewalk. Trayvon’s injuries a hole in his chest.A tiny 1/8th inch scratch on his ring finger.The internal injuries he suffered. the bullet broken into three pieces when it entered his chest the metal jacket it was in broke into two pieces, it also entered his chest.Thats 5 pieces of metal that entered his chest.they punctured the right ventricle of his heart the lower lobe of his right lung. and laserated the plueral lining of his chest wall.those injuries caused severe bleeding.which filled his chest cavity.which began compressing his lungs at some point the pressure became to great and both his lungs collapsed. some say they basically imploded from the pressure.whether thats true or not i don’t know. we just know his lungs collapsed.if trayvon was conscious when his lungs collapsed he would have suffered even more pain in addition to realizing he couldn’t breath.DNA shows trayvon never laid a hand on him. Yet he says trayvon tried to smother him repeatedly slammed his head into the sidewalk for nearly a minute while at the same time puched him in the face 12 times or 30-40 times. The sanford pd bought this so called mans story,they should have known better.
You know what gets me? I was reading some comment somewhere where someone said you could tell that GZ was telling the truth because he had injuries and Trayvon had none.
None??!!! What is a bullet hole to the chest, right through the heart asshatt????!!!!
Unfrickenbelievable!
And it isn’t that GZ didn’t have “injuries,” it isn’t even that they were not “life-threatening” injuries, because one can be in fear of their life with no injuries. The problem is, his “injuries” just do not have anything to do with what really happened. It looks more like he fell face first into a bush where a cat was hiding.
Do you have any idea what someone’s head looks like when it is bashed into the sidewalk again and again (and how did Trayvon do that anyway – he obviously did not have him by the ears)? Can you even begin to imagine what a fist to the face 20-24 times looks like?
It just sickens me when I hear that carp – GZ had injuries, Trayvon didn’t so he must be the one who did it/started it/whatever.
NO INJURIES????!!!!!
long ago i was forced to defend myself and i got no marks on me anywhere except my fists/knuckles, didnt get hit one punch but delivered the needed number and indeed badly injured my knuckles on both hands.everywhere you hit a person on the head you strike bones/teeth……the power required to lift a person up and smash their head is quite a bit even if they offer no resistance……..but fogen the phoenix was unable to defend himself on any level for over a minute, but suddenly when within an inch of his life fresh from being smothered for what seemed like HOURS and with so much blood in his eyes he was blinded, gains total control…..and after that horrific beating was able to rise suddenly to his feet AFTER he had squeezed the final life from his victim rather than calling for help for himself or his victim.
AFTER pulling the trigger he displayed a “depraved mind” with his actions and words….and none of those looking closely mentioned any injury to fogen one did note he was doing something to his own head though, right after he stood up in fact.
his entire story is and always has been preposterous.
@Rachael
I’ve read the same thing many times over. It’s beyond comprehension. Their ignorance is astounding.
@Rachael, it’s really something that only *IGNORANT* people in *THIS* country are dumb enough to buy all of his wolf tickets and lies. only those with common sense see through his bull shit and, they know he is lying. if he was in such fear for is miserable life, why in the hell did he follow somebody that he was afraid of because, he wasn’t afraid as long as he had his courage (gun) and he knew that Trayvon was a kid. my advice to Fogen, he had better always have his stupid ass body guard around him for the rest of his life. just because that ignorant dude is dumb enough to allow the defense to use him, that does not mean that Fogen is 100% safe.
That is why this law is scary because anyone could easily just kill someone and then stage injuries and then you would have people like that believe them based on that
There’s also a factor that a murderer could be injured because they are trying to kill someone and the victim defends themselves
But a good example is here
Just because Fogen had supremely mild injuries that healed by the time EMT got there, it does not necessarily mean he acted in self defense
This thug in the above video went at someone with a gun and the MMA fighter guy disarmed him and whooped his ass
Bless that there is actually an impartial jury
Because that argument is really moot
Besides, Trayvon also had severe global brain edema and a GSW, so to say he had no injuries is just plain stupid
I am not sure if the brain edema could be the result of the GSW. But yes, the GSW was severe enough, can get severer.
In this context I actually wonder if GZ made up the story about he wasn’t sure he hit him, or was dead and he tried to restrain him after he was shot. Can’t help but think that this is a story he made up since Mary/Selma made him aware he was watched now. He knew he had to come up with an explanation about what he was doing. It is a strange story anyway with a perfectly aimed shot at close distance.
regarding the brain edema – when the autopsy first became available, i printed it then spent the afternoon with my mother, a currently practicing (at 75!) RN with over 50 years experience and a specialty in rehab medicine. it was helpful to me. she stated the primary causes would be either head injury or lack of oxygen through the cause and manner of death.
thanks fauxmccoy, that was my impression. Both lungs and heart were hit. This must have severe results. Thanks for the response.
No fat lip. (He did pucker up a bit for Officer Wagner, though.)
The brain edema was severe and global
That is a head injury
The coroner should be able to tell us the exact reasoning for it
My guess is the combination of the gun shot and Fogenhats asphyxiating Trayvon by sitting his fat 200 pound butt, pinning the kid facedown, until he stopped moving
Also imo, you can tell Fogenhats is a devious person and a liar, just look into his eyes
Not calling myself an expert but there are some signs
One is he is very robotic and his eyes seem soulless
1) Yep
2) Yep
3) Yep
4) Yep, the fat pig
5) Oh Yeah !
6) Don’t sell yourself short, you nailed it.
7) Yep
You know for certain that you have a problem personality on your hands, when you’re watching a person recite imponderably insane fare, on a serious matter, and still keep a “straight face” intending for you to believe there is nothing at all wrong going on inside their head.
Watch the insane way GZ manipulates his face to project strong emotion, in an effort to support the statement he’s about to assert to Mr. Hannity. Now listen to what comes out from behind this mask: [paraphrasing of course] “I was locked up in jail and kept in solitary confinement… So, I didn’t have time to reflect… “!?!??!!??!
To which the only sane reply is “Whoa… What??? Could you repeat that please?” Any interviewer who doesn’t stop the interview at that point and focus on seeking clarification of that insane statement, but instead simply accepts it and moves on, is a person not worth listening to them self. You’re subject has just made a major departure from reality and you don’t find it odd enough to warrant investigation? Then, what other oddities have you also failed to notice? Those are the equations that the viewer should become seriously enamored of, because only those who are insane themselves, can find such material acceptable.
This equation says that GZ could have stripped, danced a jig across the stage, dressed and sat back down, and Hannity would have continued the interview as though nothing had happened. A host who exhibits a major lack of human curiosity, inquisitiveness and an abnormal lack of emotional reaction, is not someone any sane person should be listening to.
It would have been interesting if hannity would have asked fogen
“So god actually spoke to you revealing his plan for the death of this teenager to you?”
“So god actually spoke to you revealing his plan for the death of this teenager to you?”
“………um, well. (smirk…eye roll 2X, folds hands on lap) God said
enney, meany minnie moe……and when I was little part of it went “catch a nxxxxr by the toe” so I knew what God meant”
Fogen would probably say: “Gee, no, he doesn’t speak to me directly because he knows I’m Afro-Peruvian, so he speaks to Osterman and I listen in.”
Rachael, Use the comment to throw it back, TM didn’t have injuries, other than the gunshot, where are the injuries to his hands to support having delivered so many bare fisted blows to fogen’s face? No one bruise, swollen, cut or fractured knuckle, nothing to even suggest that he delivered so many blows.
@ Racerrodig — re Fogen’s imagined answer to Hannity’s imagined question:
But the rhyme says, “If he hollers, LET HIM GO”!
His ADD and ADHD preventing him from remembering the most important part.
The SPD ought to be ashamed of themselves for even entertaining the thought that he was telling the truth. they themselves were hell bent on helping him get away with murdering an innocent child. they didn’t buy his lies, they just wanted to see him get away with killing an AA child and that’s the truth in a nut shell. had Fogen been a black man, and killed a white Trayvon, he would have been arrested that very night and, he would no doubt be denied bail let alone two bail outs. for those who want to say this is not about race, they are fooling themselves. until this case, I never knew the State of Florida was as bad as it is when it comes to race.
@Ladystclaire
A black man wouldn’t had the first bond set at $150 thousand dollars either and a second chance at bond would have been a HELL to the NO once it was discovered he lied the first time around.
@SG2, I know this and he sure as hell wouldn’t have a second time to bond out of jail especially since he lied to the judge. some here might not agree with what I’m about to say but, the justice system in this country have always been against black people and that’s a FACT!
@SouthernGirl and ladystclaire,
I don’t even know how a white man or ANY man for that matter got out, ESPECIALLY on that second one. That is just crazy, totally insane.
And no, ladystclaire, I don’t think anyone would disagree with you about that at all.
@Rachael, Thank you and, I believe in telling it like it really is and that is the truth.
@Rachael, BTW, I really don’t understand how Judge Lester allowed him to bond out for a second time, especially since he lied to him about his money and a second passport. go figure!
@ladystclaire
A judge cannot grant relief not requested in the pleadings. I don’t remember his exact words now, but in his order (my paraphrase) Judge Lester said that had the State requested no bond rather than a million dollar bond, that he would have granted that request.
Xena, is it possible that the State requested $1,000,000 bond knowing it would eat up defendant’s accumulating money flow? Or, maybe, saw it as engaging bonding company to help monitor defendant? Or else, SAVING MONEY for the city of Sanford on what the Orlando Sentinel terms “Trayvon Martin-related expenses.” (foof!)
@Cercando Luce
IMO, no. When GZ petitioned the court for bond, the State entered a response that requested a million dollar bond based on the defendant’s past (criminal arrests), behavior (hiding before arrest), and the crime he was charged with (2nd degree murder).
Judge Lester heard testimony and set the bond at $150,000. What’s important to keep in mind is that when Judge Lester set that bond, he was under the belief that GZ had no money. So, it wasn’t about the money but what Judge Lester saw as GZ’s history that substantiated the bond he set.
When the State collected evidence that GZ and ShelLIE maliciously withheld the truth about the donations they received, it motioned to revoke GZ’s bond and the court so granted. Had O’Mara not motioned for a bond do-over, GZ would still be in jail awaiting trial. It was that motion that led Judge Lester to decide on the million dollar bond, as originally requested by the State.
“behavior (hiding before arrest)”
Hiding from whom?
The press?
The public?
If the state knew where he was (is there any evidence that they did not?), then he had every right, prior to ever being charged with anything, not to oblige the curiosity of the general public.
unitron
@onlyiamunitron
GZ told Hannity, and Osterman also said, that when GZ left the police station in the wee hours of the morning on 2/27/12, he moved in with the Ostermans. His was GZ’s actions that are factual, rather than his reason(s) for hiding, that the State considered in requesting a million dollar bail.
Don’t know. Serino did have GZ’s phone number.
This is part two of the reply that Serino had GZ’s phone number. Serino asked GZ to consult with his attorneys and come in for another interview. In fact, Serino called twice. The second time, GZ arranged to meet in Jacksonville, (it was late March, but I don’t remember the exact date. The recorded phone calls are on axiomamnesia.)
Even if that is true about GZ having the right to hide, it was not in his best interest at his bond hearing do-over.
They did NOT believe his lies; they want him to be blessed and set free for murdering a Black kid because they want the message to be: “Hey Black kids, you’re OURS; we do what we want to/with/about you, you got that?”
on an unrelated subject, i have found the secret to fogen’s expand-A-belt extravaganza program (and blame crane station)
Probably illegal in New York.
Almost spit my tea again!
Law of diminishing return
Our civilization has long reached its peak and is now in decline. Who could have imagined that one day the public would start feeding- or be made to feed like animals (no offense meant to animals). I think that the genius behind this initiative ought to see a psychiatrist.
searing mind – please note that this was a satire piece done by ‘the onion’. they are good at what they do, so good that it difficult to tell that this is fact a fake news story. however, it does seem as we are not far off from this hideous vision.
Ha, Fauxy, that’s a good one. I have been pwned!
heh heh heh – funny. the sad thing is one can picture it all to easily, right?
Ah! The Onion! Great bit of satire there! You didn’t really fall for it, didya?
Sent from my iPod
The solution, if they get trial delay for another year or two and need to reduce the client size, is to go on a feedbag exercise draft program.
Image of the draft program, they could ship the defendant to Turkey if he can get his bond conditions laxed a bit.
http://www.loupiote.com/photos/5237461740.shtml
It seems that WE are gradually getting all religious these days – toting our “BIBLES” and beckoning on the Lord God to send justice in fire, thunder and lightning and let the earth open its mouth and swallow the enemy. I am sure We don’t need us to do that. Law and Religion/Faith are like water and oil. They do not mix. And when a mix is forced, you get disaster. The strength of this blog is and has always been rooted in the almost all encompassing knowledge of the issues involved-, the ferocious rational thought process- and the formidable analytical power of ALL the contributors here under the guidance and leadership of the Professor. I know that there are many people of faith here. I respect that. But toting the Bible around and pontificating based on one’s faith strikes me as presumptuous, arrogant, insensitive and sanctimonious (all of which have no value whatsoever). GZ’s fate will be determined through a rigorous rational process that is based on the facts, the evidence and the Law – not through a religious process that is based on the verses of the bible. ‘Common Sense’ will get the job done. Not the “BIBLE” and what “the Lord sayeth” therein. I hope folks would leave their religion/faith/bible/prophesy behind within the confines of their hearts and homes. Faith is beautiful, but no one needs to know that anyone is a holy practicing Christian or how often he/she goes on his/her knees on a daily basis calling ‘Lord, Lord…. I have fed the hungry, clothed the naked …’ etc. Surely, no one wants to create the wrong impression that commenters here are (in part) driven by religious zealotry.
@SearchingMind. It is accused murderer GZ who brought God into his case. He is the one who believes that his killing of Trayvon was God’s plan. He is the one who has no regrets. In a strange sort of way, your statement about law and religion/faith not mixing applies to GZ, does it not?
By the way, many people of faith do not see their faith the same as religion. I am spiritual — not religious.
Xena- same here. Spiritual but with Wiccan leanings. Doesn’t mean I don’t understand or use other imagery. I believe There is a Higher Power or Cosmic Karma, whatever. It doesn’t need a name to work. GZ has justice coming.
Sent from my iPod
@cielo62. Good morning.
There’s a parable that Jesus teaches about allowing the wheat to grow with the weeds until the wheat is ready for harvest. There is truth mixed in all things. I glean what I find as truth from the field of the world.
We see that in nature. Everything produces according to its own kind. That includes the seeds we plant in life. Plant evil, wrong, hate; reap evil, wrong, hate. I also believe in positive and negative energy.
On the evening of 2/26/12, GZ planted fear. It shouldn’t now surprise us that he is paranoid that someone is out to hurt him. Like he told Hannity, GZ pulled the trigger because he was “terrified” that the cops would show up and find him standing there with his gun and shoot him. He had an alternative but chose to end Trayvon’s life. Should it surprise us that GZ did not look for alternatives to the lifestyle he chose on 2/27/12 and has wasted over $200,000 in less than a year with nothing to show for it?
I agree — justice is coming from GZ, directly from his garden of life according to the seeds he plant.
Xena- good morning! I like that, gleaming truth from the field of the world! Part of my growing in wisdom is allowing myself to accept truth wherever it is. For many years I was anti-Christian, because many of their teachings stand against me (being gay, a minority and a woman, there is much evil said against people like me). But I’ve learned to “take what I need and leave the rest.” Indeed sometimes there are many weeds around a few shafts of wholesome wheat!
Sent from my iPod
@cielo62 Throwing this out. If you want to discuss it more, come over to chat (you are a member, remember:-))
There’s a natural understanding of the literal words, and a spiritual understanding of the literal words of the Bible. Literally, God created man male and female — he formed the woman.
Xena- maybe we could take this over to Black Butterfly. Scientifically, EVERYBODY is female through most of the 1st trimester, so I don’t buy that bs that woman was formed from man. Just the opposite. That “formed for man” was just an excuse to subjugate women. It’s still used that way. No wheat on this pasture.
@cielo62 Blackbutterfly7 is a blog supporting justice for Trayvon. I won’t discuss this on the blog, but will discuss it in Blackbutterfly7 private chat if you want.
Not female formed from male because man was created male and female. Those are genders. The solution to the equation is that mankind is God’s woman.
Xena- ok I’m about to show my ignorance. How do I get to the private chat at that blog? I didn’t know it existed, either.
Sent from my iPod
@cielo62. You accepted the invitation.
Go to the following link to sign-in.
http://blackbutterfly7chat.wordpress.com/
@Amen! My spiritual experience has nothing to do with religion.
@SG2, and that is why when GZ said he had no regrets,and it was all God’s plan, we realize just how sick he is. He made God a party to his case — and just look at what has happened in court; Denied, Denied, Denied, Moot, Denied.
What George Zimmerman did was blasphemy. The Word clearly says “Thou Shall Not Kill”.
@SG2
Add no repentance, bearing false witness, and “If a man doesn’t work, neither shall he eat.”
@southern Girl and Xena- the actual translation is Thou Shalt Not MURDER. There are justifiable times to kill.
Sent from my iPod
@Cielo62. I invited you to another forum if you desire to talk about spirituality. SearchingMind isn’t open minded; it’s not my intent to offend; and we are not here on this blog to discuss spirituality.
Xena- just correcting a translation that SG2 had said. Nothing more.
Sent from my iPod
@Cielo62. I understand. There’s another way of understanding that commandment, but we’ll talk off blog.
I’m thinking FogenPhoole has a different Bible than the rest of us. Maybe his says “Thou shalt not kill…..anyone you don’t think is suspicious…..all others are fair game”
His Bible has to say “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor….that is if he’s white or at least acts white enough, or it gets you off the murder rap”
My comment was meant for @Xena.
This religious madness rooted deep in fussy concepts and confused thought process is really nauseating. Xena, Cielo, etc. pls. knock-off the BS.
@SearchingMind
I hear that cranberry juice helps nausea.
Also, eating with the mind instead of the mouth might help. IOWs, if you don’t like it, don’t read it and keep your mouth shut.
Searching Mind- excuse me? Not your blog to command. Plus I have yet to argue with anyone re: any religion whatsoever. Sorry it offends you. Feel free to skip my empty contributions.
Sent from my iPod
@ Xena
Not every White man you encounter is out to get and “define you” or “put you in your place” as you now and the claim. Simply put: you are an idiot.
Searching Mind, I am firmly on your side on this issue. I find it deeply irritating to what extend religion is evoked in the US. But then I am European and we do not have much religion in the public sphere. Although it seems to surface again in the context of Arabophobia in right wing politics. … But I only read your initial and last comment.
I once encountered a really simple and inspiring statement about all Monotheist religions by Jan Assman over here. I think it offers a simple explanation for why different people may stress different contents in religion to the extend it looks incomparable.
All the Monotheist religions contain two core elements:
a) to care about the less fortunate
b) to fight the other
It wasn’t really surprised that in US Catholic circles the just war theory of Augustus surfaced in the post 911 universe. So there may be a macro and a micro-perspective in religions that allows some religious folks to fight, even kill “the other”, based on whatever concepts. Abortion clinics and doctors? Kill the killers seems to be considered religious practice by some.
It feels it is pretty obvious why Fogen evoked religion addressing the FOX audience. Prayer surfaces in the Conservative Treehouse too.
I am on your side on this issue, it should be kept out here. There is a deep nexus between religion and politics all the way down to Carl Schmitt’s Political Theology. Schmitt supported the Nazis. He was a stern anti-liberal.
hitler claimed to be a catholic…..go figger
And I thought most Germans were Lutherans.
Sent from my iPod
Good call Cielo….As a matter of fact West Germany issued at least a half dozen stamps honoring Martin Luther……
He claimed to be an alter boy and there is 1 picture of him in a choir, robe on and all. He said he loved the Glory and Granduer of the Church.
He must have sniffed to many paint fumes durint that short “Starving Artist” phase.
cileo, Hilter was born in Austria and spent his early life living there.
Tower flower- thank you. I remember Himmler was catholic. I’ve watched enough WWII documentaries that I really should have known that.
Sent from my iPod
Catholic and very heavy into the Occult.
Indoctrination into the SS was a VERY occult ritual….
BTW…..It was reinhard heydrich (Big Nose) that came up with the “final solution”
They were some messed up dudes….
You know the story of Lydice after heydrich was killed by a bomb by partisans?……..Murdered everyone in the town…..then leveled it….
It seems all through history mankind has always had it’s share of monsters.
It’s actually a good thing he was killed in 42. One thrown bomb, even though they had blamed the wrong people, may have saved millions. Hitler was about to send him top France as I remember.
Race…..You do know your history on that subject……The fact the man was even feared by other nazi’s….
Yup…..that one bomb….During that period the Sudetenland was called Bohemia & Moravia…..the nazi’s even issued stamps (Many) from Bohemia & Moravia
I know the one stamp of him which is a profile, his nose looks like it was copied from the “I hate Jews” handbook. He had a long pointed nose, just like all those posters the Nazi’s hung everywhere.
That stamp….Scott Bohemia & Moravia #B20…..is his death mask…….Catalog value is 20 cents……….
I meet this misconception a lot in the US, cielo. It may be more true for France, Italy or Spain then for Germany. We had a 30 years long war over religion after all. Protestant versus Catholic, how could that be if we were only Protestant? Remember Luther was a German monk. For the Pope of course the Protestants were simply another strain of heretics a the time of this long war. The Prussians e.g. were Protestants, the French Protestants, the Huguenots fled there. [ Cuius regio, eius religio ] There were sill anti-Catholic laws in the later 19th century with Prussia dominating the scene.
In any case, I guess it’s 50/50 as far as these two believe systems then and now due to the above law. The latest statistics are 30% Protestant, 30% Catholics, 30% non-believers, 4% Muslim followed by Jews, Buddhists and other smaller groups.
Leander22- gone are the days were one could suppose fairly homogenous groups by country. I heard that in Argentina, the country of the new pope, 85% self identify as Roman Catholic and yet barely 10% regularly attend church. I would imagine its like that in many places.
Sent from my iPod
@Leander22
You wrote this to me, but I did not post that. I have no concern for labeling people according to their religion or denomination.
Xena- no, this was to me. I mistakenly thought hitler was a Lutheran. My bad.
Sent from my iPod
@cielo62. No problem.
The Conservative Outhouse has stopped all blogs regarding Fogen. Looney apprised me about 2 hours ago. I made a few calls and when I find more out, I’ll post what I can.
Something is up !!
MMP- !!! Hmmmm… Indeed, something legally pressing might be afoot. Please do let us know what you find out.
Sent from my iPod
I’ll keep trying. I’ll bet many sock puppets disappear and new one just “Pop up out of the woodwork” I’m wondering if LJP disappears.
Forrest Gump: Stupid is as stupid does! You’d think they’d become circumspect about posting on a site that was “wall to wall hate 24/7″, but I guess not. My guess is that those who went overboard, carried a whole slew of followers with him by the momentum of “in the moment” lunacy. Once they’d created enough material for their detractors to use to effect, the bigs have had to head for cover, leaving their followers hanging out to dry.
Any “fellow travelers” of that and other hate sites, have to be terribly worried that they might be identified and monitored or worse, reported for actionable conduct. …And that’s if it isn’t the authorities working the beat themselves.
Without an audience to play too it’s going to get very lonely for Knox, Stutzman and Pipitone. They may soon be looking for biofidelic jobs, lol.
Lonnie- LOL! Biofidelic jobs! Gotta keep that bio and fidelic together!
Sent from my iPod
Xena, maybe I do not understand what “labeling people” according to their religion means.
Fact is, I shouldn’t have interfered here without following the whole exchange; on the other hand I have often felt enormously uncomfortable here when religious matters dominated. I was absolutely relieved when Malisha occasionally added a little religious color into what felt like the domination of Christian thought. I wouldn’t mind to hear Muslim, Buddhist, Zen, Wiccan philosophy on matters if you like. But do you think these voices would come forward if everything propagated is Christian? In other words I am bothered by the domination of the Christian thought here. And I am with fauxmccoy it’s mainly a private affair and in an open discussion, it estranges people who for one reason or another don’t fit the “label”. Now since I am brought up Christian, I shouldn’t have a problem with it. After all I seem to be a member of the most outspoken majority here. Fact is I do have a problem with it.
@Leander22
Well, maybe I can use an example from what you wrote;
For my part in this, I spoke about Romain’s comment being an anointed prophecy. Why would you place that as a “Christian thought” when anointing and prophecy is believed in other religions, including Jews and Islam, either modern day or in the past?
Labeling is mostly done out of ignorance and I don’t mean that offensively. Rather, people who do not know or care to understand the difference between spirituality and religion generally turn to religious labels, having to define others by a religion or denomination. For instance, I perceive and believe that Frederick Leatherman is a spiritual person. I recognize him, as well as many others here, because of who they are internally. For me, there is one source of good and that is what I recognize, whether someone claims to be the member or believer in a religion or not. Namaste.
Romain’s contribution was perfect, but that is not what I meant, that was in fact pretty universal. Romain simply took Fogen at his own word. It does not really matter, it may in fact be more about deep childhood trauma with my own church at the age of eight. A sin that had to be confessed: Did you have relations with people of other religions. I was furious, my best girlfriend at that time would have fitted that label.
In any case, back to Romain’s LA article. How does Fogen define “his peers”?
Racerrodig posted “The Conservative Outhouse has stopped all blogs regarding Fogen. Looney apprised me about 2 hours ago. I made a few calls and when I find more out, I’ll post what I can.
Something is up !!”
Just finished reading all the comments and it appears he is only stopping the daily discussions but promises a ‘huge’ story that will blow away the state’s case. He has also had his hand out recently asking for funds to pay for documents.
Seems he told everyone to go to D-man’s site of which he was never consulted nor is he prepared for that and said so. SD is keeping it to himself right now and won’t disclose the reason, so I would love to hear the real reason, He threatened to shut it down a few weeks ago because of his disgust for MOM. I truly hope that one of the doxed DeeDee’s hired a lawyer to shut him down.
Poor fogen, where will his defense team get their conspiracies now?
He has nothing that will blow the states case anywhere. If so, we’d know about it.
Oh Xena. I think we both understand what we both are saying. There is no need for semantics. ‘Spiritual’ presupposes ‘religious’. And ‘religious’ does not necessarily mean being a member of a particular religion or believe in4 any particular God. There is absolutely nothing wrong in being religious/spiritual. On the contrary, many depend on their spirituality for strength in confronting the daily hazards of life. But religion/spirituality has its own place and must IMO remain there. Yes, GZ brought God and religion into the equation, but we know that GZ is “confused”, “mistrusting” and “fearful”. These words which are from GZ’s own lawyer describe the classical symptoms of psychophrenia. We also know that GZ has been consuming brain-altering drugs for years which may have turned him into a really deranged mind. I have no doubt that Trayvon would be alive today if he has been White. I equally have little doubt that GZ will be convicted for 2nd degree murder. IMO, that goal has to be reached through a clean, uplifting rational process. Throwing other stuff in the mix can be off-putting. And that is not in the interest of Justice for Trayvon. GZ and his supporters – including Jeralyn Merritt – I consider beneath me, because, as Professor said, anyone who knows the facts of this case and still fights for GZ’s acquittal is a racist (and it does not matter how hard that person tries to hide behind titles such as “liberal lawyer”). To play the game at their level demises the quality of what I believe we do here.
@ Romaine
You raised many questions that form part a very important aspect of Constitutional law: Separation of Church and State. I will not be getting into that topic because it is very compound, vast and still largely unresolved in the academia. Surely, I respect you and how you feel. The same goes for everyone here. All I am saying is that we always remember to give to “render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” Religion and Law do not mix. Your post was not the main catalyst of my post. I came across other posts that are faith-based. As such, I feared that we may be drifting to the wrong direction and wanted to point that out.
@SearchingMind. You use many words to explain what you think I mean, but your words do not define me neither my beliefs. Many times, others here throw other stuff into the mix. If I believe it is “off-putting,” I generally don’t comment on it. Certainly, I would not be so presumptuous to tell them what they believe and why. Your mileage might vary.
Let’s move on, Xena. I love ya.
Religion USED TO BE the law.
Now we have national laws and even international law that are not, in most cases, religious. There are a few countries that still (or again) use religious law. We’re not supposed to be living in one of THEM. (Thank God for small favors!)
I have a friend who is an Evangelist. She actually believes that one will prevail at law if God is on her (or his) side. Whenever we have dinner she goes into that and I say, “I lost. God was not in my side, then?” She finds a reason that wasn’t so.
Malisha- one of my favorite bumper stickers is “the last time Law and Religion were mixed, people were burned at the stake. ” I truly believe in people’s rights to believe what they want. I also believe in being free from other people’s beliefs. I have never seen any evangelizing on this blog, but many soul-felt expressions of hope in our ability to seek and obtain justice. I loved the LLMPapa video with both the message and the music. And let’s face it, God just isn’t on GZs side on this! Sent from my iPod
searching mind – thank you for your post. at the risk of alienating people here who i care about very much, i must admit that posts which are primarily religious in nature are awkward for me. i tend to gloss over them. religion is a deeply personal matter and discussion of which i am not prepared to engage in a public forum such as this.
SearchingMind,
I am glad to see your post. It gives me a chance to clarify that–
.
gz, on Hannity, basically was saying that God’s Plan was a higher law to him than any that he man-made law.
.
People here simply called gz on it by using gz’s Bible to emphasize that he was in big “doo doo” with his god.
By the way, I think, historically, societies have said, “our god or boogey man is going to GET you even if we can’t.”
from the song:
I understand what you are saying, and I appreciate the courage it took for you to say it.
@ Xena
Not every White man you encounter is out to get and “define you” or “put you in your place” as you now and the claim. Simply put: you are an idiot.
@SearchingMind.
I don’t know what your race and gender might be, and neither do I care. Do you have some type of crystal ball to show you my race? Your own assumptions placed you in a position to be put in your place.
Searching mind- simply put, you are out of line.
Sent from my iPod
X 2 and I know many more will state that.
X3
There ya go !!!!!!
Why don’t we pull it back a notch. Xena is the last person here you can call or even infer is an idiot.
X2
Good afternoon my good man !! I picked a bad day to sleep in.
X3
Well hello there stranger!!! Long time no see, whacha benupto? LOL.
@Lonnie
Ughhh busy.
I am going to the music room, the thread is taking so long for my computer to load.
Yeah, Prof hasn’t been here in a while and the threads getting really long. I hope he doesn’t think we expect him to read every message. If he can’t shed workload when he needs to blogging becomes more of a chore than fun or a serious enough drag to pulverize passion.
@racerrodig. Thanks, brother.
My Pleasure…….He’s in over his head on that one.
Yes, that remark was completely uncalled for and terribly untrue in the extreme. The rhetoric needs to be dialed back quite quickly and an apology to Xena is in order.
Get’er done and move on please!
X2
X 3
@Searching mind
First of all I’m not a he, lets clear that up
Second of all I agree with Xena and the rest, you are wrong on many levels.
Third I’ve been thinking to myself that you are just mean for no good reason.
You conceded and apologized but you didn’t mean any of it.
You have mocked and continue to display your ranting and rage.
You remind me of the wicked witch from the west in the wizard of OZ, you’d melt from water your so mean.
I will add that I think your heart is vile and filled with contempt for reasons unknown to me, but whatever it is I did not do it.
Romaine- fear not! This witch doesn’t melt!
Sent from my iPod
@ Xena
Again, you are an IDIOT.
@ Romaine
The day I will stoop to your level and repeat the same filth you spew, I shall have drank hemlock.
@ Racer
I would expect you to have the courage to engage me and debate – instead of taking refuge in one-liner rants.
What are talking about…..I don’t post rants to start with and lately all you do play games. I don’t get into anything with those who are just trolling.
You calling others names here who disagree with you shows what you are. I also have the right to ignore anyone chose to..
@SearchingMind. All your boasting and bragging of being more intelligent than others, and you can’t think up a word other than “idiot” to use in your personal attacks. Tsk. Tsk.
He’s goofy. He has all his facts wrong, and stated he “…earned the right to be arrogant” Nobody earns that right. he might as well put up a sign that says…”I’m a moronic internet troll”
@ Racerrodig
Sir, a couple of weeks ago you mounted unjustifiable attacks against Unitron and tried to disqualify him as a troll. I was among they who came to his defense.
A week or so ago, someone used the name Unitron to post on this site in an effort to disqualify the real Unitron as a troll. I said something to the effect that the person doing such is a creep.
As the saying goes, the elephant never forgets. I knew there will be payback time for me one day. Is this it, Raccer? Worry not though, I one tough son of a bitch, Me.
SM (Sado Masochist)?
Crawl back under your rock…….All I see is YOU attempting to cause dissension in this blog.
As per your degrees you speak of…..anything similar to fogens…..graduating 307 out of a class of 312?
Now feel free to attack me.