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1,424 Responses to Open Thread: Tuesday, February 12, 2013
This one sounds like O’Mara is going to attempt voice recognition on the screams on the 911 tapes. Gotta wonder about this one. Seems like the state is going with the FBI analysis which says nothing conclusive. It would seem that any further analysis using Trayvon’s voice is either going to come up similarly inconclusive, or a match with Trayvon. Seems like a can of worms better left alone, IMHO.
He knows darn well who that is screaming. he might as well give it a rest. His own client knows he wasn’t the one screaming. he may not want to go there.
2 Mr. Zimmerman has involved himself in the discovery process…..
I think O’ Mara is telling the Judge he has no control over his client.
I believe O’ Mara may be planning his exit strategy as per the Professors blog last week.
I believe this is a way of telling the Judge “…..hey, this wasn’t my idea…….it’s FogenPhoole calling the shots”
I believe Fogen is unhappy with present counsel and is trying to tell the Zidiot Nation I’m in control and we’ll get it done my way.
I don’t think it’s about “what” it’s about “who” as we all know Fogen wants Positive Press. He has to save face coming out of that court room whopping he took last week. I’d say someone pointed out to him how dejected he looked.
racerrodig, I noticed this special phrase in the motion concerning the credit card details the first time, if I remember correctly. Would be interesting to take a closer look. Maybe since watching these videos is time consuming, ask Whonoze and Amsterdam, Fogen offered to do this, just as he is the one that wants to know more about the “three stooges”. But I am not sure, if I simply did not pay much attention in earlier motions. Take a look at all recent motions and watch if the phrase only surfaces in a few or if it is a standard.
Now I have to leave for good for a while. I am relapsing.
Does this actually require a court order? Seems like they are saying that what they got was blank. Wouldn’t a phone call suffice? Is there some reason to go through an additional court request?
A court request provides the paper trail that what they rec’d was blank. It bolsters MOM’s complaint that they aren’t getting discovery materials in a timely manner.
I worked on system software project with high visibility and a very serious much watched deadline. The product was ready for shipment and the final tape was made for shipment. Just to be sure all i’s dotted and t’s crossed, the developer overseeing the production of the final tape said, “install it”. It wouldn’t install. A new tape was made and verified. I’m not sure what went wrong with that first tape but that those 2 words saved us all a lot of embarrassment.
Bettykath–I get the paper trail, but it also seems like it is slowing the process down considerably. There is the time that went into the paperwork, and then the delay in waiting for the next court hearing date. Just thinking–if I were the judge, I would be annoyed. Unless there is some legal reason that O’Mara can’t go back to the source and say that the CDs were blank.
The prosecution also gets a copy of the paperwork. Since the prosecution has kept everything formal they shouldn’t complain. They provide new copies and have them delivered asap. At the hearing MOM makes his point about the difficulty in getting discovery materials in a timely manner but the motion is moot b/c the materials were fiiiinnnnally delivered.
As William pointed out, sometimes you do things to see if people actually read what you circulate. What the prosecution found out is that the defense has tried to look at the files. I’m not sure how valuable that information is though.
@lurker:
What does MOM need a court order for? He knows good and well that those screams are not Fogen! Even my 5 year old grand-nephew can hear those screams. He heard my niece playing the tape, and he asked her,’ Mommy was is that boy screaming? What is going on?’ I had to explain to him what was going on age appropriate but he was not having it! He knew it was a serious deal with that boy in the tape screaming!! Out of the mouths of babes!
They are the terrorized screams of a 17 year old black kid! Fogen would not be yelling for his mom, or stating, “I’m begging you! Mommmm! I don’t know!” Fogen even said it wasn’t him screaming because he knew it was not him! He said that to Serrino when Serrino tried to trick him during the interview remember?
I don’t think this is about what at all. It’s about “who”
Read the Motion again. For the 1st time we see
“2 Mr. Zimmerman has involved himself with discovery….”
I think O’ Mara is telling the court that FogenPhoole is calling the shots and Fogen wants his minions to know he’s not happy with present counsel. Didn’t then Professor have a blog about O’ Mara bailing last week ??
Deborah–I agree. I don’t see how that particular path is going to take him anywhere helpful. Like I said, and expert could either confirm it was Trayvon’s voice (not helpful for Z) or come out with another inconclusive finding–which doesn’t help him either. But–when did Z. say that it wasn’t him screaming? I thought he had pretty consistently claimed that he was calling for help but nobody would help.
Deborah Garner-Moore…..Fogen didn’t JUST pull out his weapon (careful not to shoot his left hand), aim, and fire…..He HAD to have had his gun allready drawn and aiming it at Trayvon for Trayvon to have said “I’m begging you”….Trayvon was begging for his life as fogen interrogated him with his gun pointed at Trayvon. This is why I think that fogen had his gun out long before he said that he drew it.
It just breaks my heart to know that and to hear that boy begging for his life……Tray seeing that gun and Tray knowing that his life was about to end and Tray was trying to appeal to this man’s sense of morality not knowing that this man had no morality, values or scuples, and was a mad, unstable lunatic………I was in the Army and I know about having your gun in your hand already and you better be ready to use it, which you did, because you never knew when you would be ambushed. You had to have eyes in the back of your head, on the sides in addition to the ones you already have in the front of your face.
What the hell is wrong with Fogen other than the obvious? Why would he have his gun out and pointed towards a teenage kid??? What was he trying to accomplish?? The Professor I believe, wrote in a thread that Fogen was crying at his hearing and that woman who babysits him was trying to hide him?? LOL! I have not re-watched it but if he was crying…….GOOD! His A$$ will be crying for a very long time! The magnitude and the enormity of what he did finally has come to him, and yet, he is still lying, plotting and deceiving!!!
“2 Mr. Zimmerman has involved himself with discovery….”
I think O’ Mara is telling the court that FogenPhoole is calling the shots…”
He’s just making a the point that the defense (using the name of the client as normal) has involved himself with the discovery process– isn’t that an agreement signed by the defendant to agree to mutual discovery between the pros and the defense?
It’s not just kids, either. My alpha male kitty has a strong protective instinct towards the kids in the family. He was cat-napping at the foot of my bed, last weekend, when I was listening to one of LLMPapa’s videos, on low volume, with the screams. He heard it, jumped up, flew across the bed, jumped up on the windowsill next to me, and started frantically pawing the windowpane to get outside.
The only other time I’ve seen him do that was a couple years ago, in the summer when my niece fell down inthe backyard and she was screaming her head off.
Even the animals instinctively understand those screams. I always trust the instincts of children and animals. They don’t have the need to rationalize things the way adults sometimes need to do.
I think that the prosecuting attorney explained during the last hearing that when he’d tried to provide information over the phone, etc., that information was taken out of context or distorted by the defense. I don’t blame him at all for deciding to pursue a more ‘formalistic’ approach, so that he has a paper trail to prove discovery, the date and the details.
“2 Mr. Zimmerman has involved himself with discovery….”
I think O’ Mara is telling the court that FogenPhoole is calling the shots and Fogen wants his minions to know he’s not happy with present counsel.
This is just preliminary, foundational language – like the paragraph about the killer being charged with 2nd degree murder. Part VI of the Florida Rules of Criminal Procedure covers the discovery process. A defendant is not required to participate in discovery, but may elect to do so.
After the filing of the charging document, a defendant may elect to participate in the discovery process provided by these rules, including the taking of discovery depositions, by filing with the court and serving on the prosecuting attorney a “Notice of Discovery” which shall bind both the prosecution and defendant to all discovery procedures contained in these rules. Participation by a defendant in the discovery process … shall be an election to participate in discovery and triggers a reciprocal discovery obligation for the defendant.
Here’s why I think O’Mara points out that Fogen is involving himself in discovery: O’Mara is setting up his NEXT motion which will be for more time because poor Fogen has a mental illness and cannot cooperate with his defense. See, O’Mara cannot continue discovery and prepare for trial if Fogen is out of commission sitting at home with a big depression and PTSD, see? He will “fit the criteria for PTSD” because (a) he had an experience that was life-threatening [when attacked savagely by Trayvon Martin, see?]; and (b) he has nightmares; and (c) he has an unnatural startle response; and (d) he cannot concentrate; and (e) he keeps reliving over and over the event that caused his PTSD and he keeps thinking his head is gonna explode; and (f) he feels intense fear, helplessness and horror; (g) he has flashbacks, gets triggered, and has intense distress; (h) his personal and familial relationships have been negatively affected; (i) he has avoidant and “blocking” experiences where he can’t face the situation or anything that reminds him of it; (j) he has memory problems as a result of his emotional defense of avoidance; (k) he suffers feelings of a foreshortened future; (l) he has feelings of detachment from others and depersonalization; (m) he has a restricted range of affect; (n) he is hypervigilant; (o) he has irritability and outbursts of anger; (p) he has a pronounced and crippling sleep disorder; (q) he has an eating disorder; and like, well, (r) he’s sort of all effed up and can’t cooperate with O’Mara in providing himself with an adequate defense so he is in danger of losing his constitutional rights to be presumed innocent and blah blah blah blah blah did I leave anything out?
So a psychiatrist, a psychologist and a parambulist will all appear and convince Judge Nelson to put this off until Fogen’s children graduate college, and then we can resume — if the big bad black people still want to railroad Fogen at that point in time.
i posted earlier this week that O’ Mara says FogenPhoole is involved in discovery so this shit ain’t my idea and O’ Mara is setting the stage for an exit visa.
I also wonder whether they’re actually blank, or maybe they just weren’t “formatted to be readable” by any CD player/reader … I’ve made that mistake a few times, myself.
Why are they requesting tapes of Trayvon’s voice for anyway? He certainly wouldn’t be yelling, screaming and crying in any of them?? Then they are asking for the last three years?
Gentleman, and to the parents on this blog who have sons: I do and his voice it seemed changed overnight, but when my son was scared or in pain, his voice would sound like he was a little kid. Trayon sounded the way a young boy would sound, but in a state of fear and terror and the fact that he was screaming for his life, you certainly could tell, without a doubt, that, that was Trayvon Martin screaming calling for his mom, screaming, “I don’t know! I’m begging you…………MOM must be out of his mind to even think that, that was Fogen. He hears it as clearly as we do, and even W#18 said it was a boy screaming! Do you know if the tape has been enhanced to catch what Fogen was screaming in the background? I can’t even believe that Fogen is going to claim he called out for his Momma and was uttering all of that dialogue? To whom and why would he say anything like what we all hear when the nutcase had a gun???
Fogen staid that, “It didn’t sound like him.” when Det. Serrino played the tape to him. Serrino was attempting to fool him, so Serrino says to him, “That’s you yelling?” Fogen, being as dumb as a rock, says,”It doesn’t sound like me.” My daughter yells out to me, “THAT”S BECAUSE IT ISN”T YOU, YOU DUMB A$$!” I had to laugh at her when she said that!
One of the YouTubers has a video of the 7-11 tape in which you hear TM answer his cell phone. You here Hello and something else. But, in another angle of the video, I don’t see that he’s on a phone. I’m not sure. As you say, you don’t hear him screaming for help in that video so I don’t see how that proves it is not him screaming later when confronted by a “creepy man” following him for miles and using a gun.
Yes they are. Jan 18th. http://tinyurl.com/b93c888
Soooo???…He got them on the Jan.9th…decided they were so important that he filed it as reciprocal discovery on the 18th…just to claim on Feb.9th that they are blank???
If you’re missing something, then I am too. Also, if they were filed on the 9th, why hasn’t the court’s website provided them? There is nothing on the clerk of the court’s docket sheet of the new filings, and the docs on the links provided are not file stamped.
The links seem to have generated on a Twitter account. Those docs are not on the gzlegal case website either.
Xena, you are right, the State has never turned over video’s of those locations and the defense has never noted that they ever received them! Is this just another pathetic way of generating donations?! Holy crappolla!
I don’t have time to follow this carefully, but note, it turns out, just as I suggested over at the TalkLeft and on the site of the crazy treehousers, that Team Fogen may have deposited Benjamin Crump only a day or two before, and that is exactly what happened: notice on taking deposition, January 4.
Interesting both paraded some type of moral indignation that Crump hadn’t obeyed the 48 hours before hearing advance notice rule, since Blackwell presenting Crump’s affidavit only on the day of the hearing. I looked at the dates of advance notices of earlier depositions and noticed a trend towards short termed notices. Besides I asked Jeralyn the question if Crump was a party bound by the rules of Nelson at all, but did not get an answer.
They are playing an elaborate manipulative game. They are obviously aware what their supporters immediately associate.
“The links seem to have generated on a Twitter account. Those docs are not on the gzlegal case website either.”
IMO, If they were generated from a twitter account, then I say Jr probably was the one who generated them. Every once in a while when I read his tweets (when I can stomach them), he does have court documents listed for his ‘followers’, so I would bet that this is part of a plan which as:
SpecialladyT says:
“Is this just another pathetic way of generating donations?!
Holy crappolla!”
Yes, I wouldn’t doubt that this is just another ploy by the defense to taint the prospective jury pool…and Jr rants about media ‘misinformation?’
Yep still not a peep, I liked Blushbrown system of providing us with on topic records research, it was helping us speed the discovery and discussion process. What happened? Where have they gone?
I believe they’ve transferred to another school … one that awards credit to devoted students who work as diligently and contribute as heavily as they do.
Lonnie, Grey Winter, I’m here but very busy and keep falling the hell to sleep! Have a cold, no big deal, trying to get rid of all my possessions (including books, which are heavy!) so I can travel lighter and step lighter on the land, etc. etc. Major effort from a minor effort-maker, you can imagine.
For about three days I have been in a time crunch. I hope this won’t go on for long, though, and I do check in (very occasionally) to check up. My problem is that if I start reading in depth then I start blogging and soon I haven’t realized that two hours have passed — HELP!
Perhaps for fogen it’s more about what was said on the messages rather than the voice anaysis after all they know it’s not fogen screaming Just trying to find dirt on the victim.I don’t think Trayvon was an angel he was probably like my son who hated school and skipped school constanly which drove me crazy.I was worried he would never hold a job.None of my worries came to pass.Trayvon’s family will never get this chance.
HE is an angel. He is just human, and not perfect. If you check what has been released, he got suspended, I think, once for skipping school. He also got in trouble for writing graffiti on a locker and having what was perceived marijuana residue on a baggy found on him. Considering the 17 years of his life, he never truly did anyone truly wrong. He never hurt anyone in his life.
SpecialladyT — Do you have any insight on what surveillance from Sam’s Club, Kohl’s parking lot or Lake’s Edge Apartments has to do with Trayvon’s murder?
They are all in the neighborhood, but none of them seem to really be along the most likely route back. Kohl’s parking lot is the closest, but is on the opposite side of a major street.
You know, something like that did actually cross my mind–since his entire case plan seems to rest on finding some way to prove that Trayvon was never any good and deserved to die.
When he first asked for those videos it was all over that’s what he was looking for. I firmly believe they were looking to see if Trayvon tried to open a car door along the way home.
How did that work out ??
This latest Motion I believe is a message to the Judge telling her Fogen asked for this, not I.
2 Mr. Zimmerman has involved himself in discovery…..
Huhhhhhhhh ?? That’s the first time we’ve seen that stated and why?
FDLE went over those videos and found there was no relevant information. OTOH, they did find and enter the clubhouse videos and the M&I Bank video into discovery.
@racerrodig. It appears that each time the State turns over discovery that is not beneficial to GZ, O’Mara responds by asking for something silly that has no bearing on what the State provided. It’s GZ’s nature to toss forth garbage as the evidence that convicts him, that he cannot explain away, piles high.
How high do you think that pile is now…..50 foot??
Well, let’s see;
Forensic evidence = 100 ft.
Physical evidence = 100 ft.
ME’s Report = 100 ft.
Clubhouse videos = 100 ft.
GZ’s Phone Records = 100 ft.
Debris lab report = 100 ft.
GZ’s voice captured on the 911 call cursing Trayvon as Trayvon screams in pain, fear, and for help= 100 ft.
FBI investigation report that Trayvon did not enter that gated community by Taaffe’s house = 100 ft.
None of GZ’s and Zidiot distractions can erase this evidence.
Racer & Xena, As the trial date comes closer and closer, and the defense is becoming more and more desperate, I think that it would be fun and creative to try to come up with various requests and excuses that the defense might try to use. Heck, we might even help the pathetic fogen team along by giving them a few ideas………..just like the outhousers do……
…and the defense is becoming more and more desperate, I think that it would be fun and creative to try to come up with various requests and excuses that the defense might try to use.
Okay. Here’s one;
O’Mara: “Your honor, it’s impossible for our client to get a fair trial. There are internet bloggers and even Discovery ID has aired a program saying that the defendant is guilty.”
BDLR: “Your honor, the defendant’s brother continues to appear in the media calling the victim a “savage” and proclaiming the defendant innocent. On that basis, the State has justification to raise concern about sitting an impartial jury. Because the defendant can’t raise enough money to cover costs of his defense, we have reason to believe there are more people believing in his guilt than innocence. The best thing to do to resolve this is for the defendant to request a bench trial.”
“BDLR: “Your honor, the defendant’s brother continues to appear in the media calling the victim a “savage” and proclaiming the defendant innocent. On that basis, the State has justification to raise concern about sitting an impartial jury. Because the defendant can’t raise enough money to cover costs of his defense, we have reason to believe there are more people believing in his guilt than innocence. The best thing to do to resolve this is for the defendant to request a bench trial.”
O’ Mara “That suits my client just fine your Honor”
BDLR “I really don’t think the defendant really comprehends what has transpired you Honor, not in the least”
O’ Mara “Oh he does your Honor”
BDLR “The State has no objections then
O’ Mara “Oh good then…..my client has this “Get out of Jail Free” card and would like to redeem it now your honor”
BDLR “I just knew it.FogenPhuckingPhoole…..typical”
@racerrodig http://tinyurl.com/atu52tz
Fogen was involving himself in discovery in the request for school records back on Oct 5th. Could have earlier but I do see it here.
You know how crazy that is, If he thinks that, this man needs his head examined. Why would Trayvon attempt to steal a car when he got his little brother at home waiting for him? It’s stupid to even make that a possibility, he got to be playing games. I think he’s just trying to stall. Trayvon was staying with his dad, do MOM, knw anything about black dads! lol apparently not.
Moron O’ Mara, that says it all. When the request for CCTV from those stores was filed, the Zidiots were right on O’ Mara said Trayvon was involved in an auto theft ring. Riiiiiiight !!
Did anyone notice the request for Kohl’s specified 3pm-8pm? The rest just asked for the tapes from that day. The Bank is beside Kohl’s.
There are car dealers across from those places. What does lifting a door handle prove if that’s what they’re after? My husband and I have car shopped/browsed and he’ll try the door. Sometimes they’re open and he wants to see the interior. Oooo…so criminal! Trayvon might have been dreaming about his first car like every teenager has. Not unheard of.
Sam’s Club is right beside the 7-11. On google maps it places it
many stores away from where it actually is. If you go to streetview on google maps you will see you drive just feet away from the 7-11 as you enter the Sam’s parking lot from Rineheart.
They say that because it failed. They started that months ago and shortly after O’ Mara asked for the videos. They seem to forget that they are so predictable it’s a laugh riot from this side of the fence.
Okay, I think I’m getting at what’s been bugging me about those three guys who “coincidentally” show up at 711, by car, just as Trayvon is getting ready to leave. Here’s the video: http://tinyurl.com/che8csw
Of course there are other videos of the 711, as I come across them again I’ll put them at this link as well.
Note how they come in hiding their faces? They try to appear discrete about it, but they’re covering their faces none-the-less. Is that Ranesburg with the sunglasses? At night? What’s with that eh?
Now get this, he removes his hat and makes quite a show of unfurling and showing his braids. I read that as a hair/braids fetish. But, unless he comes down to 711 either every day or on Sundays, to display his hair on their cctv, then why is he doing it on this Sunday? You wouldn’t suspect that he has a reason to believe the video taken this night, will be of particular interest to the world?
As far as anyone should know, this cctv video taken that night, should not even be of interest to the security firm that stores the videos. So, unless someone knows something, there’s no reason at all to “perform” for the camera that night. As far as anyone should know, there’s no reason to make sure that you’re center camera all by your lonesome. So, why even bother unless you think that somehow this video has a possibility of being of interest to someone later on? If it is going to be of interest to anyone later on, it would have to be because it involves Trayvon. Meaning, to treat this time as anything special, you have to have knowledge that something is planned for Trayvon that night. Even if you don’t know exactly what, you need to know something, unless that is, you go around to the stores making this kind of performance for the cctv’s all the time.
But then, why hide your face?
Ranisberg is also noted for wearing white tee shirts. Ring any bells? Someone came running north seconds after the fatal shot was fired, a man in a white tee shirt is seen on the body, and there was probably another person somewhere in the area, after all the Ranisberg group involved three, him and two cohorts. Likely GZ knew these guys, he lives close enough and they’re thieves. GZ could very well have been using these guys, after all, GZ has useful connects with the police. As with all such arrangements, it’s not to far gone to imagine that something might have gone wrong with the relationship. GZ, fearing that someone knows something and can expose him, is threatening to get someone, Ranesburg might have decided to feed him Trayvon instead.
Maybe GZ blames these boys for the loss of that $3,000 dollar laptop, in his financial condition that would make him seriously mad. If he were told that TM ratted him out and/or cause the loss of the laptop, or maybe he stole it himself, well… Something like that has the makings moving GZ to try to make trouble.
Okay, waaaaay to many suppositions here, waaaay to much conjecture and guess work, all there is, is a very gossamer thread that isn’t very clear itself. But, that said, it’s still a decent hunch, so let’s keep an eye out in case something else is discovered. Maybe these bones will pick up some flesh. It’s not totally out of the realm that they might.
GZ, fearing that someone knows something and can expose him, is threatening to get someone, Ranesburg might have decided to feed him Trayvon instead.
Since learning that GZ went into hiding after leaving the police station, it’s been my impression that he feared someone other than anyone associated with Trayvon. Capturing Trayvon was part of a plan to get someone else out of trouble with the cops, and my thoughts were on Burgess. It is likely it involved GZ’s band of thieves. GZ didn’t want the cops coming to his house and I continue associating whatever he moved out that night with the $135 that he spent at the post office while living with Osterman.
Good theorizing. All the pieces I have to this puzzle are still in the blender, so giving me pieces of other theories and evidence to put in the blender works. I’m with you along the lines that TM had some, as yet unknown utility to GZ and Ransberg in the Burgess mess, and is somehow tied to the pricey bit of mailing GZ did.
I also just noted that TM leaves the 711 almost half a minute or more, but waits outside before the car pulls up, presumably with that crew inside. Meaning that TM was waiting for them and he expected them to arrive. This was, then, no chance or coincidental meeting! Trayvon, as I suspected, had been lured from home.
Now I need those other 711 camera angles to review. But if that car that comes almost half a minute after TM leaves the store, was the car with those boys inside, Trayvon should have been on his way back home, not waiting outside for people who he didn’t know and was not intending to meet.
@Lonnie Starr. My first impression is that Trayvon stood outside the 7-Eleven because of the rain. Now, think about this. He walked to the store. One of GZ’s gang could have seen Trayvon walking in R@TL, leaving it, and walking down that road to the store. They may have needed to communicate with GZ, and were instructed to go to where Trayvon was. Meanwhile, there’s a man at M&I Bank at the ATM around the same time that Trayvon enters and the leaves the 7-Eleven.
GZ’s phone records are what is going to reveal his communications before he called NEN to report a suspicious person. For the 2nd degree murder charge, it will provide evidence that GZ did not casually leave his home to go grocery shopping.
“Maybe GZ blames these boys for the loss of that $3,000 dollar laptop, in his financial condition that would make him seriously mad. If he were told that TM ratted him out and/or cause the loss of the laptop, or maybe he stole it himself, well… Something like that has the makings moving GZ to try to make trouble.”
Wait, whoa, IIRC, I never heard anything about GZ losing a $3000 laptop. I thought that was a neighbors/someone else at RTL?
I need to learn how to do the gray-box shadowing for quotes.
That was just a remark that perhaps, maybe, the real intended fence for that stolen laptop was GZ. The laptop that Emmanuel Burgess was busted for. It has to do with claims/speculation that GZ was using NW as a cover for a theft ring, which allowed him to case the neighborhood.
Burgess stole the 3,000 dollar laptop, it winds up in Ransburgs backpack. When the police find it there, Burgess claims it and get’s carted off to jail while Ransburg is let go. So, what if Ransburg knew GZ? Possible? GZ doesn’t have much in the way of income, so one has to wonder what his internet/ebay activity shows, eh? Maybe GZ was promised the laptop, but Ransberg has to tell GZ that someone stole it, then later that month he points out TM as the thief. Something like that. Could those be the questions Taaffe says TM should have answered?
Your post makes a lot of sense to me. Remember during the 911 phone call Trayvon was screaming and one of his screams was this, ‘I don’t know them!’ I kept saying to myself, what was Fogen questioning him about? Why was he screaming that he did not know them? Who is them? Reading your post? That could be what Fogen was questioning TM about. Tray didn’t know “them” and he had no reason too.
Ah yes, I remember that. Another piece of data to pop into my “blender”. I’ve got a lot of messages to work through, then I’m going to go back and take another look at the other 711 videos. See if you can capture the file with that remark in it or post the link. I’ve probably got it somewhere but this will speed things up. thanks.
OK, Lonnie. Time to fill some of the rest of us in. Personally, I tend to stick to looking for horses when I hear hooves, rather than zebras, but, I watched the video you linked. Does appear as though Trayvon hung around a bit–and those 3 guys were certainly bizarre in their get-up. I thought I might have caught the words security-cam in the convo with the clerk. But–who on earth is Ranisberg and what’s this about a $3,000 laptop?
OH? You haven’t read about Emmanuel Burgess and his Feb 7th arrest? He had been spotted hanging around this woman’s townhouse when her 3k laptop was stolen. The police came a few days later when someone called in that guys who met the description were hanging around. The found the laptop in Dude Ransburgs backpack, but Burgess claimed the stolen laptop as his. So the police took him and let the other guys go.
Ransberg is a white guy who hangs with three blacks. On that Sunday however, Burgess was in jail, so Rainsberg would only have two black guys with him. Looks to me like that’s who we see in the 711, what a coincidence eh?
If someone is wearing a cap over lots of hair, it can easily get to feel too hot (especially if it was quite a bit warmer inside the store) or uncomfortable for some other reason. That’s the most likely reason that he shook it out.
As for some of the other things you said: do you actually have any reason to believe that is Rainsberg (or however it is spelled – you spelled it several different ways) and his friends, other than speculation based on the races of the young men? Anything at all placing them at the site of the shooting – after all, white t-shirts are not exactly rare items? And I don’t get your point about the 7-11 video – if they knew something was going to happen between GZ and Trayvon that night, why would that want to make one of them want to “perform” for the camera?
Stores in Florida are generally not heated but air conditioned. At 60 degrees they turn the air conditioning off. Florescent lights don’t generate much heat. I don’t have the spelling of Ranesburgs name down yet, I’ve too much to do to catch up but I eventually hope to.
You have, of course, noted that I say this is speculation that I haven’t yet put in order or confirmed? Fine, but I doubt that guy’s reason for taking off his hat and showing his braided hair was because it was hot in the store, look at the video, he has only just come in.
No, I can’t say this is Ranesburg, because we don’t have any pictures of him. All we know about him from the records is that he is a white guy who travels with three black guys, one of whom is Burgess, who is at that time in jail. So now this guy is traveling with two black guys, it kinda makes sense that it’s him, of course I could be wrong, but then. Consider that Burgess and the boys live pretty close to where Trayvon is staying and close to GZ as well. They are thieves and I’m pretty sure they’ve crossed paths with GZ.
So, other than that, so far all we can do is weave theories that help us discover what other evidence needs to be searched for.
But, I’m going to guess that it’s a good bet that these three are the ones that hung out with Burgess and that they’ve probably caused TM to come to the store for a meeting somehow. So, that will be one of my working theories.
I think he has a white tee underneath the Jersey and he was wearing a white tee shirt when he was stopped with Burgess’s stolen laptop in his backpack.
Well which is it Fogen. Was Trayvon trying to break into houses (@ 7pm mind you when everyone would be home watching the game–not a senior cat burglar) or was he trying to break into and steal used cars? Funny how the defense only focuses on demonizing the victim when they should focus on the forensics (which would be the heart of a stand your ground self defense); But whoops I forgot, it wasn’t self defense, it was murder. Their only option is to taint the jury to get them to believe that Trayvon deserved to die. I guess Fogen and his team forgot that is God’s decision.
Trained Observer ~ The reason for the Sam Club and Kohl survelliance is because one of GZ supporters Nettles 18 email O’mara and told him to look into it. They think Trayvon was getting ready to break into a car there. I seen some of his supporters mention it on the debate page. I’m like you I don’t see what it have to do with Trayvon murder.
That broad, nettles18, is a Canadian and her name is Annette Kelly. From reading her posts on the debate page, she spends most of her free time digging up dirt and personal information on Tracy, Sybrina, aunts, uncles, all the children, Trayvon and anyone who is connected to the family. She is obsessed with this case and spews the Conservative SHIThouse crap all day long. She is the one who spilled the beans about O’Mara asking the “masses” to do HIS investigations for him. She needs her head examined!
AK is intelligent enough to communicate in an articulate way, but not smart enough to see the light in this case. Probably has a black man fear, IMHO. She is one of those Treeper Stumpers who continually finds fault with the Martin family.
Crazy behind Zidiots think up all types of conspiracy theories when none of them prove that GZ killed Trayvon in self-defense. If they would get off their bigoted racist horse maybe they will see that even their thugification of Trayvon does not help GZ. Rather, it drives in the inference that GZ’s supporters believe that he committed a racial hate-crime.
Junior isn’t helping either by his failure to publicly disagree with Randy Hahn.
Should be entertaining to see Jr on Bill Maher on HBO tonight.
I don’t have HBO, so if someone could share it with us, that would be great! I want to see Bill rip Jr up!
I just replied to Xena’s post that the State never turned over any video’s of those locations. I read in discovery that the FDLE never admitted video’s from those locations because they were reviewed by the FDLE and they didn’t find anything of relevance on them.
SpecialladyT says:
February 13, 2013 at 6:24 am
Xena, you are right, the State has never turned over video’s of those locations and the defense has never noted that they ever received them! Is this just another pathetic way of generating donations?! Holy crappolla!
Speciallady T ~ That woman need her a MAN or a DILDO or something. She’s an old lonely and confused woman with no kids. She doesn’t have a life. They worship her on that debate page they think she always right never wrong. She is one of the many DUMBA$$ that be sending GZ money.
Oh, you don’t have to tell me, everyone knows she’s a whack job!!!
I am quite certain she will fly from Canada to the Florida State Penn to visit fogen when he is sentenced. After Shellie finally smartens up and dumps fogen’s ass she will then propose to that killer and he will accept.
Speciallady T ~ That woman need her a MAN or a DILDO or something.
Hmmm? I don’t like this type of argument, I would imagine a women can have sex all day long and it doesn’t make her one bit more wise or normal if she has a mental tendency. At least I am not aware of such a therapy.
Are you aware this is one of the standard misogynic or sexist arguments? I am always a bit baffled when I see women using it. or are two actually male?
But yes, I noticed too that quite a few ladies over at the nutters seem to sprout the most racist nonsense.
Just want to echo leander. I have been hit with that kind of mess on other sites by people who disagree and run out of logical or factual arguments. I say leave the insults alone–particularly when they make ugly assumptions about personal matters.
@Two Sides To A Story: Those GZ supporters are vicious. I have one in particular on YT that goes by xroosterxx. I will make a comment on someone else’s video and he will resort to the LOL!!” every 4 words and has lately taken to calling me a bitch and questioning my intelligence and how TM supporters all take the position of being persecuted while they are the ones stating that fogen is being railroaded. This wo/man has taken to going through my photos on FB and mentioned my niece and nephews, my FB name and the last place that he could figure my age. It takes all I’ve got not to kick out at this particular dog. It is not easy. I have to remind myself to not fall away from the known facts and not be steered into his lane. I do perceive this one in particular to be dangerous. I wanted to mention this b/c it obviously upset me when he mentioned my niece/nephews.
LOL@LLMPapa!! You know, Amsterdam analyzed the clubhouse videos and for one room, pointed out seeing the reflection of GZ’s face. When I saw it, I felt as if I was watching a horror movie. I generally don’t see much of what others do in the clubhouse videos, but I surely saw that.
Finally, an opportunity to tell you what a genius I think you are. You are amazing. I watch all of your YouTube videos almost as fast as you can put them out. I hope the prosecutor is watching them also.
@LLMPapa, Your videos have been a constant and unwavering voice of reason speaking for Trayvon from the grave. I’ve long wanted to thank you for the gift of each one. Powerful and moving, they are uncompromising in exposing the raft of lies that fogen and his crowd have promoted to justify the murder of a child. Thank you for your videos, and I look forward to the next.
But apparently that is part of human nature. If there is only one person there who could help, they would be more likely to do it. With others there not helping, it is less likely that one person will step out and do it.
Discovery is continuing and then the self-defense hearing. MOM has said that he can show self-defense with the evidence without the defendant testifying. How can he do this?
I posted earlier on the previous thread. This is almost the same but stuff has been added and/or modified.
I’ve been trying to figure out what evidence the defense could present at the hearing to show self-defense without the defendant testifying.
There are his medical reports of head lacerations and a possible broken nose presented by the nurse practitioner who can testify about the severity of the injuries and when she saw the defendant. She cannot testify to anything the defendant told her about how he got the injuries. When the injuries happened would be by subpoena of the EMTs who treated him on the scene with further descriptions of the injuries. The taker of the bloody picture would be subpoenad to identify the where and when of the photo. Which EMT/s chosen by the defense would depend on the content of their depositions. The one/s most favorable to the defendant would be chosen.
There are witnesses who can be subpeonad who saw the defendant on the ground with Trayvon on top of him. The defense will claim, as it has, that the defendant was trapped and was being beaten by Trayvon.
What else is there? Does anyone have any other ideas? I know, you don’t want to give the defense any ideas.
The prosecution would show by cross examination of defense witnesses that all the injuries were superficial and not indicative of any kind of bashing. The lacerations weren’t bad enough to warrant stitches. The photographer would testify re: the complementary photo of the defendant’s face taken at SPD which would be entered evidence to show that most of the swelling had gone down just a few hours later and that there was no sign of black eyes.
Point to be argued, where are the X-rays proving a broken nose? Is this a fair question for the prosecution to present?
Would the prosecution enter the autopsy report into evidence? It shows that Trayvon has no injuries or DNA on him consistent with hitting the defendant but wouldn’t it open up lots more questions to the ME about other aspects of the autopsy report and turn the focus on the prosecution’s case rather than on the defendant’s stories?
What can be used to counter the witnesses? There is the video of the defendant’s admission to Serino that he had Trayvon in a wrist lock and that he, the defendant had control, enough control to pull his gun, aim it, and shoot.
And maybe this is the place for the 911 call with the scream and with the expert who can show who was screaming, who else can be heard, and what they were saying. Regardless of who was on top, the person in distress was Trayvon.
As an aside, what’s interesting about the Serino interview video, (LLMpapa are you there?) is that the walk-thru video contradicts it. Watch the defendant’s hands in the walk-thru as he describes reaching for his gun and shooting. Then watch it in the Serino interview. Maybe I’m not remembering them right, but I don’t think they show the same thing.
I don’t know that the eye witness accounts are going to be as helpful as Z. would want. The one who appeared strongest initially–describing MMA punches (John? or Jon?) changed his story. Not only does his changing the story make him look wobbly, but he didn’t change it in a direction that helps Z. And there are conflicts between witnesses. It will be interesting to see if Z. had any phone contact with any of them.
I think that O’Mara has been counting on the bloody picture to “prove” that Trayvon beat Z. But, I would guess that there will be some medical experts for the prosecution available to testify that the injuries were minor, suggest some possible injury producing mechanisms (including bushes). I think that O’Mara has been doing a lot of whistling in the dark. He has a client who has already, in all likelihood, destroyed any chance of his being able to make a case–and who cannot be put on the stand.
I agree that the MMA description and that witness is a problem. But weren’t there other witnesses who described the defendant on the bottom and Trayvon on top? I think MOM would see that as helpful. I’m being a bit lazy in not looking it up and hoping that someone else has the information at the ready.
BK–It has been a while since I have looked at all of them, but it seems as though there was not a real clear picture emerging from the bunch. Some details were odd (the person in white was on top–for instance). The kid with the dog only saw one person down and calling out (maybe both were prone? one on top of the other). One woman was quite certain it was the larger man on top and she saw him get off just after the shot. One woman saw two, or maybe one, go by her window running, but wasn’t really sure.
thanks, lurker. I agree that the witnesses all saw something different MOM would subpoena only the witness/es that support the defense story. Guess it’s time to look through the witness statements to see if any of them support the defense contention that you-know-who was on the bottom. I can’t believe he is naive enough to think the rest of what I postulated is enough. Or maybe he is going through the motions expecting that they aren’t going to prevail.
I expect the prosecution might take all those witness statements and describe the elephant.
Lurker, you asked in an earlier post when Zimmerman said that it wasn’t his voice on the scream tape. That happened on 2/29, I believe, when Det. Serino played the tape and Zimmerman heard it for the first time. When he was asked it it was him, he said. ‘No’, and ‘It doesn’t even sound like my voice’ or ‘like me’, I don’t recall exactly which. That interview was audio only, if I’m not mistaken.
Don’t forget that during one of GZ’s interviews, he stated, “he yelled for help…and I shot him.” Also once during the reenactment and partially during one of the audio statements, he stated that “he put his hand on his nose and mouth, I mean, he put his hand on my nose and mouth.”
He has quite a few Freudian slips that most certainly will be hammered on by the State.
He yelled, so I shot him. Picture him when he says I aimed and fried one shot during his reenactment ……the “…what’s are ya gonna do..” shoulder shrug……sickening
Yep….that’s what he said I had a wrist lock, thereby an opportunity to exercise a means of escape (mandated in the SYG law) and at on point I was on him.
Maybe he meant in the context that we use “…I’m on this..” (cutting the grass, stirring the sauce etc etc etc)
No, I’d say he meant “I was on top of him and still shot him dead”
The wrist lock is just another GZ lie, but only in it’s timing. No doubt he administered a painful wrist lock, but it wasn’t necessary to control TM who wasn’t fighting at all. GZ attempts to make it appear that a wrist lock was necessary for his own safety because TM was so dangerous and powerful. While, in fact, Trayvon never raised his hands, as the alignment of the holes in his garments will show.
…Re W6 who modified his statement about “MMA”. George said “MMA” to Serino in an interview on the 29th(the date, I think)
I finally got around to enhancing that audio from the 29th about a week ago. The volume was low where George is speaking. I could not believe it when I heard George say “MMA”.
I came here and was blown away that the Professor has either a comment or a post up referring to the odds of both these people referring to “MMA”. I can no longer doubt my own ears. I had thought it too outrageous to be believed!
The FDLE folks know what’s up, because it’s Batchelor who asked W6 about his reference to “MMA”…to which he responded that it’s all over the TV now.
W6 is a grown man who must know the gravity of what has happened. How stupid can he be to do this?
I have felt from the beginning that George and his buddies were calling up witnesses – possibly pretending to be media, possibly they were in cahoots – to find out what they saw and what they told police.
This is the outcome of George being allowed to walk free. He was able to move around and synchronize his stories with others in the community.
They are stupid and deserve what they get (those in cahoots with George). O’Mara was trying to get access to “Biographical” data about witnesses. That includes social security numbers, car tags, credit info, job info etc for the witness and his/her relatives and associates. That should send a chill up their stupid spines.
I’m doing a search on Ransberg and I come across a Tampa Bay Times article that has since been deleted from their site. But a recovered copy of the article states that Ransberg is Thomas Ransberg and is a home owner in RATL, is 20 years old, has dreadlocks and is black. Here, the article is at the link just below the DD video: http://tinyurl.com/byyokld
I was thinking more about MMA-John. He was real gung-ho-yeah-you-shoulda-seenit-wowzee about the event in the beginning, when it was real clear that the listening audience was made of people who were not only buying Fogen’s story but SELLING IT as well in a police cover-up pyramid scheme. But when it became obvious that things were not as easy-peasey as he originally thought, well then, the atmosphere got dark and unclear, the punches got unthrown, a few bells got unrung, and gee willikers, it was hard to tell what happened.
Interesting that O’Mara is not interested in getting this guy’s deposition, right? They don’t need to ask him any questions because they’re the ones answering questions for him, and he has these two questions to ask:
1. What should I say? and —
2. Are you sure I’m not gonna get in trouble for this?
considering his overestimation of time passed between he heard loud voices and the scream (5 minutes) his guess may be wrong and he may have witnessed events out there even for a much shorter time.
Ok, one last thing. The timing of the start of witness #11′s call and the shot is taken by the expert (Michael A. Knox.) based on Singleton’s time-line of events in Serino’s capias. Very strange since he has a very detailed and precise time-line on everything else on first sight. I stumbled upon it by using the surprise me button on Amazon.
That can’t be a mistake it feels to me. Treeslaw / Whonoze did an update based on the 7th discovery files, you find on YouTube concerning the call.
And without GZ on the stand explaining his near death experience, it is just 2 minor cuts on the back of his head and some blood on his nose. I’m sure the prosecution will show the photos taken at the police station with a proper camera and good lighting, just a couple of hours after the incident.
I looked a lot worse after I fell off my bike. The road rash above my lip was terrible. He doesn’t have that at all.
“And maybe this is the place for the 911 call with the scream and with the expert who can show who was screaming, who else can be heard, and what they were saying. Regardless of who was on top, the person in distress was Trayvon.”
Can we be sure that an expert will be able to show who was screaming, who else can be heard and what they were saying? I am so looking forward to hearing that! Justice for Trayvon!
I haven’t been able to distinguish the two different voices on my computer, although I have heard several different posters say that they can hear the second voice, (BDLR also mentioned a second voice at one of the hearings), and I imagine the State has much better equipment to enhance the recording better than many of us.
Also, before the second voice on the tape was ‘discovered’ a question that seemed to be asked quite frequently was…
If Trayvon was smothering Fogen while bashing his head against the cement, how could the screams be so long and uninterrupted?
Betty, Mara doesn’t get it. You know, someone has to testify: ‘I feared for my life and fired my firearm’ or ‘something to that effect. Someone has to claim, ‘Trayvon punched the defendant, broke his nose, got on top of him, started straddling him, bashing his head repeatedly on the concrete sidewalk, covered his mouth and nose, rained down blows to his face and head, went for his gun’, etc., or ‘something to that effect. This is the core of the defendant’s self-defense story. No other person can testify to these but the defendant alone. O’Mara/counsel cannot put such forward for the defendant.
You’re right, of course. I was exploring MOM’s comment that self-defense could be shown by the evidence without the defendant testifying. Unless there’s something I/we missed, the only evidence is the medical stuff and that just proves a scuffle between the defendant and some bushes and his gun.
Great points. I’d like to know more about the grass on Z’s jacket that one of the first responders saw,when in the pictures taken at LE station shows no grass or stains on Z’s jacket.
Tim Smith told Serino that GZ had grass/rain on his back as if he’d been on his back but I don’t remember anyone else saying it?
I think that comment was meant to set up the cover story and let serino in on plan, and serino perpetuated it by adding it to his narrative..
did anyone else say anything about it, like in a report?
did the forensics come back on gz’s clothing? and did it mention any dirt on the jacket or pants? does anyone know?
Waving the bloody photos around and interpreting the forensics in Fogen’s favor, I would think. Taking his “Okay” statement at face value. Fogen’s statements that Trayvon looked like he was up to no good. There’s not much else they’ve got to prove self-defense. IANAL, so just my two cents – I think if Fogen doesn’t testify at a self-defense hearing, we’re going to see pretty much what we’ve been seeing all along.
@Two sides. If I understand correctly, O’Mara can only enter the photos of GZ’s head and nose by placing Wagner and Jon on the witness stand because they took them. Then, the State has opportunity to cross-examine and call their witness who took the photos in the police station. The EMT who said that GZ’s face was 45 percent covered with blood can be called by the defense, but Wagner’s photo refutes that assessment.
On cross, the State will be able to ask if GZ pointed out where his head was purportedly bashed so that evidence could be taken. The EMT may also be asked if there was any debris on GZ’s head or if samples were taken to test for debris.
Then, there needs to be an expert witness to address blood splatter and the rivulets.
The judge then gets to see both sets of photos — before and after clean-up, and hear testimony to see if it agrees with the evidence.
The problem for O’Mara is that none of his witnesses, neither the photos, can answer whether the boo-boo’s were life-threatening. Only GZ can testify as to his reasonable belief that they were.
Thus, if he takes the stand, prosecutors should introduce questions to confirm that before he killed Trayvon, GZ removed his head from the concrete, and that the punch that purportedly broke his nose was the alleged first physical action. Therefore, the punch neither the boo-boos justified killing Trayvon in retaliation thereafter because GZ was no longer in danger of having his head further bashed on concrete.
Then comes the DNA evidence — Trayvon didn’t lay a hand on GZ.
Don’t forget the swollen broken nose photo at the scene and the nose all healed up in the station a few hours later. That has got to make the judge go Hmmmm… No?
Don’t forget the swollen broken nose photo at the scene and the nose all healed up in the station a few hours later. That has got to make the judge go Hmmmm… No?
Along with the physician assistant’s medical report that fails to substantiate any serious injury, and referral to an ENT for the nose that GZ did not follow-up on.
Let’s say I show a picture of a man with a gaping wound in his leg, with a compound fracture all messy and bloody, and the picture is labeled 3PM 1/1/11
Now I have another picture to show of the same man all healed up in a bathing suit, sipping a martini and nary a wound or drop of blood in sight. No scar on the leg etc. nothing. Now this picture is labeled 4PM 1/1/11.
Now, let’s assume that these time stamps are absolutely, demonstrably true!
Question: What must we believe about what these pictures depict?
If the photo taken at 3 PM is true, then the one taken at 4 PM is not true. If the photo taken at 4 PM is true, then the one taken at 3 PM is not true. IMO, rather than examining the wounds in the photos, the face and demeanor of the person should be examined.
If the photo taken at 3 PM shows the person all bloody, but on his phone, then he could not have been concerned about the injuries. If the photo taken at 4 PM shows a relaxed person, then I would opt to believe that the 4 PM photo is the most significant.
Ah, I probably should have copied the post this one was in reference to. We’re drifting away from the point.
The point was, if the time stamps on the pictures is true, then what the pictures depict cannot both be true. Because a gaping compound fracture cannot heal in an hour. So there was either no fracture and that picture depicts a false wound, or the second picture is merely a copy of a picture taken before there was a wound.
If O’Mara is going to try to use the picture of GZ in the police car with the swollen nose, then he has to show that the picture at the police station is fake. Both pictures cannot be true. But the picture at the station has the better chain of custody. Meaning that of the two photos, the picture at the station without the swollen nose will be admitted and the other one discarded. O’Mara will have no evidence of injury to GZ’s nose other than GZ’s self serving testimony as a known liar.
Those 2 pictures have 0 proof as to chain of evidence custody. In NJ here, neither would even be mentioned as evidence. The police station pictures have a documented chain and from day 1 I’ve stated O’ Mara will have a real problem with the alleged crime scene pictures AND the story that nobody had a camera to take his picture…..BS on that.
You got it…how do his alleged injuries heal in an hour…….still interested in that bridge ??
I guess FogenPhoole thinks he can sell ice to Eskimo’s from the witness stand on that one….
TS, you’re not the only one confused about admissablilty.
I also don’t understand how some of Fogen’s statements can’t be entered in unless he testifies. If I understand correctly, it would only be his statements that go toward his defense.
Miranda rights state ‘anything you say, can and will be, used against you in a court of law,’ then assuming that, they can use anything you ‘say’ against you to ‘prove’ the crime, if I understand that correctly. Then, OTOH, wouldn’t they use anything you say that is in your favor, toward your defense? I guess I don’t get it.
Rules of Admissibility 101 by the Professor would be awesome!
Edited post above:
Then, OTOH, wouldn’t the defense be able to use anything you say that is in your favor, toward your defense? Not much in Fogen’s case, imo, but I guess I don’t get how ‘admissability’ from prosecution or defense works, as it seems the rules are different for both, if I understand correctly.
@Kimmi, the defense cannot bring any of gz’s own self serving statements, only the state can bring in his statements against him because he’s the party opponent.
Prof did a whole post about hearsay and admissible statements about 2-3 weeks ago. i’m not organized enough to fetch it, maybe someone else knows which one it is. but it’s safe to say gz cannot benefit from any of his statements unless he testifies!
BettyKath, as you stated that GZ stated that he had TM in a wrist lock which is described as being very painful. Therefore, my just being a scientist, my question is that with TM being immobilized, GZ being larger and more sturdy, did GZ have to take perfect aim such that he did not have to worry about shooting his left hand. With TM immobilized, GZ could have moved his left hand over to the right side of TM’s hoodied. So the question becomes: Why Didn’t he. Or, is the senario much like I stated in the past in that both were standing with TM trying to get away and GZ trying to restrain him. Just a Thought
Oh “showing self-defense” without Fogen testifying is a waste of time and money and O’Mara knows it but he’s got to do something, now hasn’t he?
He’ll put on a police witness, perhaps Ayala. He’ll ask why Ayala didn’t try to get Fogen charged weith a crime. Ayala will say it looked like a clear-cut self-defense case. They’ll show pictures. They’ll whine about a broken nose. They’ll carry on. On cross-examination Ayala will admit that he has no real way of knowing anything (he’s not gonna risk HIS hide for the thing) and then the judge will say, “denied.” All without saying terribly bad things about poor Fogen, mind you, so as to not get another recusal scene revved up.
Malisha it’s not fair to waste so many resources and time on an immunity hearing using that ( i’ll admit pretty clever ) example you stated! BDLR wouldn’t have opportunity to sling gz and his lies around the court room for all to see!
So I OBJECT TO THAT DIRTY TACTIC on the bases of Prosecution’s insufficient access to gz!
Where O’ Mara gets he needs 2 weeks for an Immunity Hearing is beyond any scope of logic. If FogenPhoole does not testify they have virtually nothing to present. If he does the State could drag it out by incessant cross…..like they want to go down that road??
An Immunity Hearing is sometimes only a 1/2 day or so. The longest I ever saw was 2 days. It’s real simple.
I would think that it would be very fair for the prosecution to ask about broken nose x-rays.
It seems to me that the autopsy report and the screams would not be useful for the defense to present, and probably not needed for the prosecution to present, at the self-defense hearing.
Someone asked on another thread about real estate at the Retreat at Twin Lakes. I did a quick look. At least 6 on RVC have sold in the past year, 4 of them since 3/1/12. And at least 20 are listed for sale or rent. I didn’t look at all of them to verify if the listing are current but they do show volatility. If someone else is interested, I binged “real estate retreat at twin lakes sanford fl” this brought up the RVC entries. changing to “real estate twin trees sanford fl” brought up those on Twin Trees.
simple reality and common sense……fogen claims he was held on the ground in the struggle for his very life for over a minute, yet the clear pictures of him at the station about an hour later show his clothing to look as if it was freshly pressed not a single wrinkle, no smears on the back of any of his clothing, dry and NEAT….the medical tests checking his bp heart rate etc. showed those to be NORMAL = simple common sense there is no way on earth fogen was in ANY struggle much less one for his very life….none of the blood pattern from his minor scratches indicate he was EVER on his back NO smearing of any kind and clearly flowing down and towards the front of his head.
Fogen actually committed first degree murder of a child and, he should have been charged accordingly with the death penalty definitely on the table. but, I guess the state went with second degree because they would stand a better chance of getting a conviction. he executed that child and he is now trying to lie his way out of paying for his crime.
I pray that he is locked up for the rest of his life and who knows, maybe he will meet his demise just like someone else we all know did. Trayvon never laid a hand on him and he knows it and, for some members of the SPD to try and cover this murder up, they shoul, d all be charged with obstruction of justice. the SPD is also a big part of the reason that Trayvon is being deamonized by racist whites in this country. they were the ones leaking information about Trayvon’s school suspension as well as some other things.
They did this because, they were being investigated by the DOJ and the FBI because they did not take this case serious and do a proper investigation due to the fact that they were in cover up mode for Fogen. I read about this on a web site last night but, I can’t remember the name of the site. but it tells of how in the beginning there was no vilifying of Trayvon and his family until the SPD started leaking info on Trayvon. it’s no wonder that some people have no trust in those whose job it is to serve and protect. in some cases we need to be protected from them.
lsc–my understanding is that first degree murder requires premeditation. In other words, Z. would have had to decide that he wanted to kill Trayvon Martin, made a plan and set about to carry it through. While I have seen some suggestions about what might have transpired via phone between Z. and others prior to the incident, so far as I can tell, this remains nothing more than speculation. And my take on Z. is that he has pretty limited capacity to think through things rationally and act on them. Seems to be more of a shoot from the hip kinda guy–acting on impulse.
I think what we have is something far more like a perfect storm. Z. was pumped up (and perhaps a bit obsessively) by his vision of ridding his neighborhood of punks. He had the false courage provided by a weapon and a noisy background of loose-talking racially-biased neighbors feeding his belief system that there was some kind of war going on with a bunch of punks who were laughing at him as they entered at will and ripped off whatever they wanted.
And into the middle of this mess walked Trayvon Martin. Blam. Oops.
The clubhouse videos combined with Dee Dee’s statements, appear to show that GZ couldn’t have seen Trayvon near Taffe’s. Trayvon would’ve arrived at the mail area about 13 min before GZ showed up. The bushes and trees hide the mail area from RVC. The logical conclusion is that someone saw Trayvon, knew from the flyers or the newsletter that GZ was the NW guy and called him. His telephone # was in the newsletter too.
I don’t think he left his house with the intention to kill Trayvon. I do think it is possible, GZ realized he was detaining at gunpoint an innocent teenager, and the police was about to arrive. Any dreams he may have had about a carreer in law enforcement, would have evaporated, if Trayvon could’ve told his story.
Fogen had a Freudian Slip during his Hannity Interview when he said to the effect that he knew the cops would be there any minute and what would they think when they arrived and he had his gun out.
Since he cannot tell fact from fiction I think that is what he thought when he realized people were watching the cops were almost there. He may have thought kill the witness and claim SD. If not, he’s going to jail and now there is no LE career at all.
lurker…..I think that what you think is absolutely correct….but add to that fogen’s anger issues. Trayvon tried to escape, couldn’t answer fogen’s questions (which REALLY po’d fogen), fogen REALLY lost his temper and blam…take that you punk. And since the kid wasn’t armed with anything but skittles and a tea….a BIG OOPS.
Agree agree agree. SPD in effect gave Fogen permission to kill and then, after the fact, tried to give him a walk. Only the monumental efforts of the Fulton-Martin family and their support team and the organizations that kicked in prevented this gross miscarriage of justice from becoming a murder-by-consent ring.
I understand Corey’s decision not to go for first-degree, though. I even support it; it was smart, and you can’t beat smart.
Well, you can beat smart but you can’t beat it with dumb.
Fogen told Serino that he holstered his gun right after shooting Trayvon and Trayvon “kind of sitting up” and falling. Why holster his goddamn gun if he was still in danger? Why holster his gun in case the guy was faking being hit, and then came at him to make sure he would be diaper-worthy? NO WAY anything about that idiotic self-defense story was true and the cops KNEW IT and yet they had to all take the same line and follow it for the exact reason that Dorner went berserk in California — because you cannot stand up and try to tell the truth in the middle of a corrupt organization that has BIG GUNS.
I do not agree with Dorner’s murders. But I do recognize the kind of assaults on the senses and the sanity that deep corruption causes and I realize that it is corrosive to the human spirit. The extreme corruption of the SPD stinks to high heaven and nothing will cover that smell until it is opened up and aired and all the turds are cleared the hell OUT and it will take a Herculean effort to clean out THOSE STABLES. I hope our feds are not too week-kneed and lily-livered to do it.
@Malisha
SPD kinda gave Fogen a pass, but not enough to keep the detectives from videotaping him in a “reenactment.” Somehow, those wheels kept turning for few days.
@Cercando — They kept looking for evidence for a few days because SERINO thought Fogen was guilty of murder and he was in charge of the investigation. Once it was clear that no matter what he thought, there would be no charges drawn against Fogen, the “blue door” closed. FDLE had to open it with the help of a shoe-in by the feds.
Bettykath, I do not know if you saw the post I sent you concerning Experts so I will send it again. Experts are those who know more and more, about less and less, until they know everything about nothing. This is what we who operate in the arena of Geo-Chemistry and Geo-Engineering feel about Experts. We also have another saying about Experts and that is: If Experts cannot dazzle you with their Brillance, then they will try to Baffle you with their Bullshit.
On a serious note. there are various posts concerning TM being on the bottom with GZ on top/or GZ on the bottom and TM on the top. Most of the posts look at the situation as though it were a static situation. It was not, it was a very dynamic situation. TM was trying to flee and GZ was hanging on. GZ also through his own statement told the Sanford police he extended his right arm in order to shoot TM such that he did not shoot his left hand. If GZ was on top of TM and even it TM was on GZ, GZ could have easily moved his left hand over the right of TM hoodie such that he did not have to worry about shooting his left hand. In addition, look at the distance between the two on the ground and the distance does not in any way allow GZ to fully extend his arm. This also does not take into account angles or even vector analysis which is the study of two forces pulling in different directions.
In line with your “view” of experts, you know what BS is. MS is more of the same. PHD is piled higher and deeper.
You’re right that the situation was dynamic rather than static. That’s why I said the prosecution will take all the witness statements and describe the elephant. It’s a reference to the cartoon of various blind people describing an elephant from what they can “see” with their hands, each one at a different part of the elephant. In this case, the various statements describe an evolving event, not a static object. ooo, that hurt, describing an elephant as an object. change that to not an animal standing still.
BK–this is where someone with more knowledge of courtroom procedures is going to have to help me out. If O’Mara chooses not to put Z. on the stand, then are all of his statements made to police inadmissable? I mean certainly if he is on the stand, they have great value to refute what he says (in fact, WHATEVER he says, since he has changed stories so much)–but in a self-defense hearing, where the defense has the lead, do they still have the option of showing that Z’s account is full of holes when compared to the evidence regarding timelines asd suche?
If I understood previous lessons from here, I think the prosecution can admit them if it chooses, but not the defense. The only way for the defendant’s story to be admitted by the defense is for him to take the stand and tell it. Any other defense witnesses would be prevented from telling his story is b/c it is hearsay. They can only speak about what they saw or said.
It makes sense for the prosecution to hold back the defendant’s statements so the only way his story gets in is by his taking the stand and then the prosecution can use whatever from his many statements to impeach his testimony. I don’t remember the correct phrase but the concept is like he’s speaking against self-interest.
I suggested that the prosecution may want to use the part of the video from the Serino interview b/c after the defense makes its claims that the defendant was on the ground being pummeled, he got control of Trayvon and shot him. Once the defendant got control, he was no longer in danger. It’s not cricket to shoot someone just b/c you were afraid at some earlier time. If the defense decides that the video presents a wrong impression of what the defendant meant, the only person who can testify to that is the defendant. Then it will get interesting.
I’m sure the professor can correct any of my statements here that aren’t true.
But, doesn’t the SYG/self defense law not require GZ to retreat? Just asking. I think TM was the one with the right to stand his ground but I read some other Florida cases and it seems the aggressor once in the underdog position was able to kill the initial victim. The law really should be changed to Last Man Standing.
The SYG law doesn’t require that you retreat. The self-defense law requires that you retreat if you can.
MOM has decided that they SYG law doesn’t apply. Perhaps b/c of the 6-7 minutes preceding the shot which shows the defendant in pursuit. By using the self-defense law I think he will try to show that whatever transpired previous to the encounter doesn’t matter. At the time of the shot, defendant was on the ground, being beaten, afraid for his life, and unable to retreat.
The prosecution’s counter to this is the interview with Serino where the defendant describes being in control after putting Trayvon in a wrist lock.
The screamer was trapped, the sounds tell you he is not running, he may be struggling to escape but he is not in the active process of running. the desperation also tell you that he is trapped.
the shooter was not fighting
how could he fight with one hand? he was, if anything busy, restraining/choking, getting his weapon out and aiming.
Just close your eyes an listen to the call and ask yourself one question, does someone with a gun scream like that?
William Walton says:On a serious note. there are various posts concerning TM being on the bottom with GZ on top/or GZ on the bottom and TM on the top. Most of the posts look at the situation as though it were a static situation. It was not, it was a very dynamic situation.
That’s what so frustrating when anyone tries to discuss this case with a George fan. They swear that the laws of physics and common sense were suspended that night.
When I heard George’s story that he was able to ‘shimmy’ his body away from the sidewalk my first thought was—if you were strong enough to move your weight plus Trayvon’s weight (assuming that George was telling the truth about Trayvon sitting on his chest) then what was Trayvon doing while he was moving-was he still striking George or was he just along for the ride?
George has a very low center of gravity and Trayvon had long legs and a much higher center of gravity so why wasn’t George able to ‘bridge’ out and throw Trayvon off him at some point?
W W :TM was trying to flee and GZ was hanging on. GZ also through his own statement told the Sanford police he extended his right arm in order to shoot TM such that he did not shoot his left hand. If GZ was on top of TM and even it TM was on GZ, GZ could have easily moved his left hand over the right of TM hoodie such that he did not have to worry about shooting his left hand.
My guess is that the forensics team placed Trayvon’s hoodie under a microscope and noted that the fibers on the bottom right side of Trayvon’s hoodie had been stretched. Maybe they were even able to get an outline of George’s handprint.
W W This also does not take into account angles or even vector analysis which is the study of two forces pulling in different directions.
And the only way for the bullet to have entered Trayvon at zero angle (0) would have meant that George had to have had his gun angled at 45 degrees and Trayvon had to have been leaning at a 45 degree angle while sitting on George’s chest. That’s very improbable since Trayvon should have been moving while he was landing “MMA” style blows on George.
They were both on the ground at some point. Perhaps precipitated by some pushing or grabbing. That’s consistent with the thud and Trayvon’s ear piece falling out, per Dee Dee’s testimony.
From the audible evidence so far (as described by witnesses), I imagine GZ tried to make a “citizen’s arrest” of TM – and (rightly) got punched in the face. Some of the witnesses claim to have heard a heated argument but didn’t get scared enough to call 9/11 until the screaming started.
And for the record, I don’t know who was screaming, but the test is based on “reasonable” fear, not irrational fear.
MelRoy says:They were both on the ground at some point. Perhaps precipitated by some pushing or grabbing. That’s consistent with the thud and Trayvon’s ear piece falling out, per Dee Dee’s testimony.
I think Trayvon’s ear piece could have fallen out when George first grabbed him and maybe DeeDee heard some of the conversation after it fell to the ground before disconnecting.
The only time they were both on the ground is after George shot Trayvon.
When George shot Trayvon he was still graspingTrayvon’s shirt with his left hand and since the bullet didn’t pass through Trayvon’s body, but exploded inside his body all of that force pushed Trayvon’s body backwards and since George’s right hand was outstretched he lost his balance and fell on top of Trayvon (that’s how he got the grass stains on the toes of his shoes). There was no grass on any other part of George that night.
This is why witnesses saw George get off Trayvon after the gunshot.
I think that this gives credence to when Sybrina stated that it was an accident. George probably fired the shot out of frustration not malice but he didn’t have the right to restrain Trayvon in the first place much less stalk or detain him.
Murder 2!!
Reminds me of the story my father used to tell about the Oshee bird, found in tropical jungles. The oshee bird flies in a circle screaming Oooooooh-Sheeeeee-Ooooooo-Sheeeeee and as the circles get smaller and smaller, it flies faster and faster and the screams get louder and louder until finally it flies up its own ass and screams, “Oh-Sheeet it’s DARK IN HERE!”
But the description of experts’ testimony reminded me of the advice given to trial lawyers in custody cases:
If the facts are against you, pound on the law.
If the law is against you, pound on the facts.
If they are both against you, pound on the best interests.
If that is also against you, pound on the table.
“If the facts are against you, pound on the law.
If the law is against you, pound on the facts.
If they are both against you, pound on the best interests.
If that is also against you, pound on the table”
In all of our cases it’s the 1st two and the 3rd is
If you have the Law and the Facts hammer both, and so far we have always had all of one and most if not all of the other. I guess we never needed to pound the table yet and hopefully, never will.
In 1966, Kinoy was removed from a hearing of the House Committee on Un-American Activities and subsequently convicted of disorderly conduct. In 1968, the U.S. Court of Appeals overturned the conviction.
Malisha, some who did not consider themselves experts turned out to be experts. My Dad was a physician-surgeon who practiced general medicine, general surgery, and trauma-surgery. The hospital where he was on staff had a women physician who most of the staff called the “Hen Medic”. Dad’s sidekick in surgery would tell Dad this woman was a “Nutcase”. Dad, being very laid back ignored all the comments about this women. That was until one morning at his office he received a phone call from a funeral director who was a patient of his. The funeral director requested that he come to the funeral home and inspect the body of the daughter-in-law of the “Hen Medic”. The funeral director stated that the “Hen Medic” had already signed the daughter-in-law out as complications of chloroform during a pelvic exam. Dad stated that this was one of the problems of using chloroform which was why he did not use it. The funeral director explained that the body had a bandage on her back. Dad inquired like a bandaid, Funeral director, No Doctor like I had when you performed my appendectomy. Dad finished the patient he was with, stated he was called to the hospital, and left for the funeral home. Upon examing the body he found the bandage whitch a surgeon would apply. He removed the bandage to find sutures which a surgeon would apply. He then ordered the funeral director to call the coroner. The coroner arrived and observed the sutures. The coronor ordered Dad to remove the sutures which he did placing them in the surgical tray. Dad asked the funeral director for a pair of long forcepts which he provided. Dad used the forcepts to probe the wound and declared it to be a gunshot wound. The body was taken back to the hospital where an autopsy was performed that night. The results were that the uterus was severally torn up, the bullet struck a bone and ricocheted and exited the wound in the back. What was determined was the the “Hen Medic” did not like the daughter-in-law and felf her son deserved better. What was even more astonishing was that she was not satisfied that she had killed her by overdosing her with chloroform, but, had to make sure by inserting a pistol in her vagina and pulling the trigger. Those involved in the autopsy concluded the the “Hen Medic” felt the bullet would be slowed down by the soft internal tissue and would never exit the body. Had the bullet not hit the bone, this case would have never been solved. The “Hen Medic” was convicted, sentenced to prison, and had her Medical License Revoked, and Shreded.
Llmpapa, that’s what I thought yesterday when reading here. Fogen grabbed onto the hoodie , his DNA is there. If Trayvon is bending over fogen, there wouldn’t be any or maybe just a little DNA,, less than if he is grabbing the hoodie. Right?
I’m starting to think Fogen pulled the hood of the hoodie so that Trayvon couldn’t see properly– this could explain both how Fogen was able to grab Trayvon at all and keep him from running, and also how Fogen got a drip of blood onto Trayvon’s inner shirt (because the inner shirt was exposed with the outer hoodie pulled up).
THere must be a more detailed color photo of this poor boy taken by Fogen’s friend and neighbor.
Someone posted earlier (on the previous thread, I think) the link to O’Mara’s request for subpoenas of all audio recordings of Trayvon’s voice over the past three years. Did anyone post a link to his similar demand of the Martin family members yet? If not, here it is:
How & where in the hell will he get something like that. That’s just plain crazy, another stalling tactic. Surely he jest. People don’t even leave outgoing greetings on there cell phones voice mail anymore they just use the per recorded message. I have a teenage daughter she have never left me a voice mail on my phone ever, she hangs up if I don’t answer, and text me what she wanted to say.
My brother has a phone that records messages — and they automatically get wiped after 10 days. I don’ see Voice Mail services holding anything for 3 years, and of course especially not if the person leaves hat provider. If.
I will be very interested to see the judge’s response to these requests. They strike me as being overly broad if what they are going for is a sample to use in voice recognition. But I also still don’t see how these can possibly help Z.’s case. I seriously doubt that they can locate an expert willing to swear that the screams absolutely did NOT come from the same person as any voice sample provided. It would seem as though they would be evaluating for the certainty of a match. Lack of certainty could mean just about anything.
O’Mara needs to find out if there is a voice exemplar of Trayvon so that a voice identification analyst can get on the stand and say absolutely, “This scream of terror was Trayvon Martin’s last word alive,” because once O’Mara realizes that can happen in that courtroom, all bets are off and his client HAS TO PLEAD. Since the only way to find out if they have located an exemplar of Trayvon’s voice is to subpoena ALL recordings of his voice, that’s the request we see from O’Mara. But I think the i.d. of Strayvon’s scream is part of the rebuttal case so I don’t think it’s really discoverable until there is a legal showing of “self-defense.”
I don’t mean to offend, but why do we support the gzlegalcase website by paying attention to it and do their bidding by sharing it’s new ‘news’.
That’s what they put it there for, and we do their bidding. So do regular new stations, OS has the latest motion up now. The defense is doing the ‘feeding’, maybe we should wait and get it from non defense cahnnels>
I don’t think that anyone here is “supporting” the gzlegalcase website. We’re just looking to see what they’re up to, not to do anyone’s bidding. Most of us can recognize bullshit when we see it.
Agree, don’t think anyone is supporting it, but still we are doing what the defense wants, to pay attention to their site and its offerings, and share.
They are making things public for a reason (unless we believe MOM at the last hearing saying it really isn’t necessary with a momentary sly smile towards the camera).
I suppose the fact that we are talking about ‘his’ client and case, is suiting their needs of keeping everything up front. He is using the media, but will he use it to the level of success as happened with the last big case.
Last google search for the case fpr the subject videos (was looking for the Sunday channel 6 tv Flashpoint, every thumbnail had juniors face until it reached a Fox news and MOM video. They are able to get their links up front and center for searches.
Is this media push, trying the case in the media, going to work again?
“I suppose the fact that we are talking about ‘his’ client and case…”
Yes we do talk about his client and case, and the forensics, the DNA, his lies, his families lies, Taaffe’s racist comments, Ostermans crap, SheLie’s lying, the witnesses, his motive, his utter failures in life, Fogens racist comments, his NEN call, all the videos that are made that destroy his story and a lot of other things.
Dave…You’re right. It’s insight into how they’re thinking and what they’re thinking. I know that the outhousers do the same thing. They come over here (and other “justice for Trayvon sites”), read, and then go back to the outhouse and report.
@ay2z, Just fyi: that jazzy do fogen wore before Judge Nelson is officially known as a “faux hawk.” Everything about him is faux, so why not his hair style?
Keep your enemy closest to you, remember that saying? Then you know him, understand his modus operandi and well equipped to pour sand into the engine that drives him. That way you bring him to a crashing halt.
I think the blank disc motion is so pointless. Even without the motion, the state is doing everything formal and providing a paper trail for everything handed over. I also believe they did not bother looking through the DVD. I remember at the last hearing Omara claimed to not get certain paperwork, and then Bernie got up, went through his paperwork and found the certain piece of paperwork for him. Fogenhats is just playing games. He prolly wrote the motion. If they claim it is blank, the state would prolly offer to burn the disc right in front of them and test it and then give it to them and then have everything initialed. Also at the last hearing and motions they claimed the state never gave them the cellphone analysis info, although they got give discs with info and were even offered to go to the place where the forensics on the cellphone were being done.
LOL I think it is just him trying to stall again and then he will get denied again and the state will double check the disc, and make sure it is the same disc that they gave them, and then do what i stated above
I also do not get how Omara is supposed to present Fogenhats without him taking the stand
It is not like the state will not be able to prove that Fogenhats is the guy that did it LOL
There’s nothing within the evidence that proves Fogenhats was attacked… pretty much only Fogenhats claimed he was attacked
w6? I think if he wants to not get indicted on perjury and false statements to police, he will stick with his story because it can be proven his retracted statement was a lie, but it looks like he took the high road and retracted his statement, which is a defense to perjury. As well, w6 does not prove Fogenhats was attacked, even if he did not retract his statement. w1, w2, w8, w18, all point to the defendant as the aggressor.
Nope, no proof of attack. Proof of a fight perhaps, and yes he had some minor injuries, but they don’t match up with his story and he refused to go to the hospital. Anyone being wacked on the head like he “said” he was should certainly have it checked out. But nooooooo. Then there might jave been official documentation that his injuries did not match his narrative (as well, they might have wanted to run a tox screen on him).
And just think, if you just killed someone and you are claiming self defense wouldn’t you want all the documentation you could get to prove that you were seriously injured. He had to know that he was going to need this to prove his innocence. He was hiding something that night we all known it and I bet whoever he talked to that night advised him not to go to the hospital. There is a picture of him on the phone while a witness took the bloody back of the head picture if i’m not mistaken.
You are not mistaken, but I think he was talking to John (W6) to get their stories worked out so that John supported the defendant’s claim that Trayvon was on top straddling him and raining down blows to his face MMA style.
I don’t think he needed anyone to tell him to refuse to go to the ER because, with the exception of the medic who briefly treated him at the scene, he was the only person who knew how he got those wounds and how trivial they were.
I have been saying this since day one! ! Being a Nurse, I found it odd that a man who claims he had his head bashed against the concrete ground only sustained such “minor” injuries. Most of the pts. that I have taken care of in the past, sustain more severe head trauma which require care in a rehabilitation, learning how to walk, talk, eat and do other ADL skills. I also found it odd that a man who was brutally beaten wouldn’t want to have as much medical documentation from a Specilist or would REFUSE to even see a Specialist! WHY? Why was he not complaining of neck and back pain. Why was their no abrasions on the lower back of his head? If ones nose is broken, why would he refuse to see an ENT Specialist and take their advice and have X-ray done, and a Ct. Scan of his head? Everytime I bring this up on the HP, I get absolutely no answers from the Zimmerman family and brigade. They cannot refute what I say, and they know that I am RIGHT! Fogen did not want to have a Medical Doctor assess or evaluate his minor injuries. Even his own PA documented that he suffered no trauma and had a “possible broken nose” but it cannot be documented because he did not have X-rays taken, no Ct. Scans, nor did he have an MRI.
It’s a FogenPhoolePhantasy that his head was bashed. If it was, there would be very little skin left on the back of his head. Any of us that ever did a header off of a bike can recall what the knees looked like.
Fogen is so utterly stupid, he has expound on everything to the point of ridiculousness. If he had said he slammed me to the ground with a flying tackle and I whacked my head so hard I blacked out for a second, that’s far more believable than his detail of lies. I was so disoriented I had no choice….
Can you please tell me why we call GZ “FOGENHATS?” I have been calling him Fogen, because everyone else has been but I have no idea why I started doing that! I call him a lot of other names too, but why does this man call himself “Fogenhats?” Also, I will be watching ID Discovery tonight on my cable in NYC.
Professor….I believe you’re correct. If fogen was on the phone talking to John (W6), wouldn’t that be on his phone records? If he had been seriously hurt, wouldn’t it have seemed strange that he made a call to a “neighbor” and not his wife…..and instead had someone else call her? If his nose had been broken as badly as he says, why would he have been “casually” talking to a “neighbor”…one would think that all that bleeding and breakage would have made a phone conversation difficult…LOL
In all honesty, his nose does not look broken or bleeding, it looks like he rubbed blood onto it till it dried, hanging off the tip
Also on scene, Fogenhats was the only party with blood on his hands and his wuss scratches had already healed and were drying by the time EMT arrived, in which he then told lies and avoided having being looked at by an expert
@ Professor
“You are not mistaken, but I think he was talking to John (W6) to get their stories worked out so that John supported the defendant’s claim that Trayvon was on top straddling him and raining down blows to his face MMA style”
That would indeed be a huge dynamite (if phone records show communication between the two right after the murder). I would not be surprised if that John has already lawyered up.
Jun……I’ve said it before on another post…..if he didn’t get those facial scratches running into a tree, I believe he created them himself. 1) Using his fingernails, reaching to the back of his head and digging into his scalp pulling his hands forward.
2) Using his right hand and scratching his face with his nails from the upper left-hand side, diagonally down to the bottom right-hand side of his face. 3) Scratched the inside of his nose with his fingernail to make it bleed. That’s why he didn’t want to go to the hospital..they would have known what actually caused the bleeding. He was also seen rubbing his hands on his face after he got up and walked away…..One might think that he was spreading the blood to make it look serious.
Thinking about what happened immediately after the murder. It seems as though Z. made a phone call, and rather cooly asked someone else to take pix and call Shellie to tell her that he shot someone. Shellie was then in contact with Osterman who took her to the scene.
IF Z. left the house (following the mythical mentoring session) to go to Target for groceries, all of the above strikes me as being incredibly cool. If my wife thought I was at Target and I was being put in a cruiser a couple blocks from home, wouldn’t I want her to have just a few details? And why would O. take Shellie to the scene rather than straight to SPD?
All fits in with ongoing questions I have had with their immediately leaving their house. All of the national outcry didn’t start up until days/weeks later. And Z. was walking around thinking that this was all going to blow over.
Since the defendant didn’t have any money in his pocket, I doubt his going for groceries story. Although, in some states, food stamps money is on a credit-type card, but there has been no indication that they rec’d food stamps.
There’s also the problem of GZ having to show that the attack he claims he suffered, was reasonably believed to be deadly, and not just claimed to be deadly, there is a big difference.
Someone pounding on you with their bare hands and no combat training at all, is hardly going to be what jurors will believe is a “reasonably deadly attack”. As a general rule, fist fights, so rarely result in deaths, or even serious injury, they aren’t even prohibited by very serious sanctions at law.
Think about it. I you attack someone with your bare hands and/or fists, you are not charged with attempted murder, as you would be if you used a knife, a gun or other weapon.
GZ is trying to push the idea that Trayvon’s bare hands were deadly. Does anyone think that an unarmed Trayvon, if attacking anyone with only his bare hands or fists, would be charged with attempted murder by a officer who came to the scene? The desk Sargent or other duty officer would approve such a charge? A prosecutor would think it’s a serious matter, enough that a judge will be impressed? Or, would they tell the officer to dial it back?
All the motions,is it really good to annoy the judge asking for more and more on the same subject when her answer has been ‘take her deposition!’. MOM even interrupted her rudely a couple times in the last hearing, talked over her.
about the 3 years of voice recordings, what good will that do unless you can bring them in via an ‘expert’ witness?
Thought I heard that jurors in Florida are not allowed to do any investigation/testing themselves, and if the defense were to offer various recrdings of Trayvon, the jury would be asked to compare and decide who they sound like most? How could those recordings be evidence for this use?
That would be like asking the jury to smell the contents of the paint cans for decomp and deciding if it was decomp in the Caylee case.
@ay2z. I’m pretty sure that DeeDee has not had the same cell phone for 3 yrs, neither maintained voice mails that far back. Since the treehouse has attempted doxing her, I seriously doubt that she has the same phone number since GZ killed Trayvon. I know that some stuff can be backed up and restored on cell phones, but if O’Mara wants voice mail from 3 yrs ago, he might have to get it from the cell phone company — IF DeeDee had a cell phone 3 yrs ago.
Can you imagine how long it would take to listen to three years’ worth of DeeDee’s phone conversations? Sheesh! Last February 26 she was on the phone all day with Trayvon! I wonder if that’s typical for her. No disrespect meant to the young lady, but she obviously likes to talk.
HA! Dave, sounds like you never been in love before. I remember being on the phone with someone in Israel for ±3hrs for several week. Hours read like minutes. Minutes read like seconds.
LOL! Dave. Remember when you were that age and talking on the phone to your significant other? I remember being on the phone with my boyfriend all day long. We would hang up, then he would call me back, hang up again and then I would call him back. My mom of course, thought I was crazy! Oh those were the days. We would be just talking about the basketball game, the football game, going to a party in Brooklyn, the school dance…..just everything under the sun! No worries back in those days……….for one day! LOL!
Over on the TreeStump they’re now saying DeeDee is a composite person, completely fictional.
It’s called a false accusation to bait — flush her out. They want to make contact with DeeDee to intimidate and demean her. They would like to place her in harm’s way by releasing her personal information.
I agree completely… Have been wondering, because Trayvon was in high school and a sweet kid who probably had many friends, just how it’s been managed to keep the real DeeDee safe and invisible.
Awhile back I saw some of Trayvon’s friends on FB, their addresses were published on the TreeStump with the preverbal hate speech & racists rants. I wrote to them and suggested they black their FB pages from anyone they didn’t know. Never went back and checked and never received a reply.
@lady2soothe. Most Zidiots are instigators. They get info and hope by releasing it, that some insane person will cause harm while they sit back and wait to hear about it.
@ Xena…. Of course, you should have seen the weird noises coming out of HP the other day and now the BS and backtracking in the last hour or so with DENIED. Well just put it this way, if it wasn’t so pathetic it would be comical.
@ Xena…. Of course, you should have seen the weird noises coming out of HP the other day and now the BS and backtracking in the last hour or so with DENIED. Well just put it this way, if it wasn’t so pathetic it would be comical.
Their playbook is always the same. Propaganda — release documents via Twitter before they are filed with the court. This gives the Zidiots opportunity to build false hypothesis around their ignorance of legal procedures and try fear tactics.
After the court denies the Feign Team’s motions, silence or rants about it being railroading.
Then demean the victim, his family, attorney Crump, President Obama, and pro-justice for Trayvon supporters.
Oh — and use dog whistles — lots of dog whistles such as “savage,” “Obama’s sons,” “apes,” and “Traycoon.”
Some of their posts are so filthy I want to cry. I know what it’s like to lose a child, the pain is so deep you can hardly swallow. I pray the Martin/Fulton Family never sees the vile comments these hateful people write (I use *people* loosly).
My (grown) children have been racially profiled, as have I for being with them and it’s no joke. But to hear/read the sickness is almost unbearable.
OMG. I didn’t know you had lost one of your childrem! My heart goes out to you. I cannot even imagine the pain of losing a child. I will keep you in my prayers and ask God to hold you and give you strength to make it.
To think that Tray’s parents had to not only put up with a poor piss investigation of their son’s murder, but to learn that it was being covered up, and then to have to fight for justice for their son, and then now to have to read their son’s reputation and character being smeared??? I am appallled. The racist comments from the Nuthouse is something that I don’t read and it is something that I as a black woman do not entertain. I know that racist bigoted people exist and will never go away. Their denial of the facts is why they spew their racist vitriol. We know that racists never win and that is why we must continue to fight them. I don’t give credence to any of their vitriol racist garbage. It is to be expected from uneducated, ignorant hillbilly’s.
I have 3 sons and 2 daughters all of mixed decent (Metizo and Black). 1993 my middle son was killed in a rollover Dec. 9th just 2 weeks before his 17th birthday (He was a Christmas day baby). My youngest son shares Trayvon and birthday (he turned 30 Feb. 5th) was shot twice while being robbed but for the grace of God, he survived and I do not have to suffer what Sybrina had endure (no one was ever arrested). I know what it feels like to get *that call*, twice no less, so I have enormous compassion for the Martin/Fulton Family.
I don’t go in for the tit for tat fighting on HP or elsewhere because ultimately I can’t win with the bigots and racists. Their minds are infected with hatred no antibiotic will cure. I just know God will punish those who spread their evil. Meanwhile we will continue to fight for Justice for Trayvon and the forgotten.
Emmit Till (1955)
George Stiney (1944)
Roy Belton (1920)
Big Nose George (1881)
Will Brown (1919)
Cordie Cheek (1933)
Joe Coe (1891)
Anthony Crawford (1916)
Pancho Daniel (1858)
Michael Donald (1981)
Wesley Everest (1919)
Leo Frank (1915)
Raymond Gunn (1931)
John Wesley Heath (1884)
Sam Hose (1899)
Ed Johnson (1906)
Frank Little (1917)
Steve Long (1868)
Francis McIntosh (1836)
Jim Miller (1909)
Laura and L.D. Nelson (1911)
Mack Charles Parker (1959)
George Parrott (1881)
Ell Persons (1917)
Henry Plummer (1864)
Robert Prager (1918)
Thomas Shipp and Abram Smith (1930)
Bill Sketoe (1864)
Henry Smith (1893)
Hyrum Smith (1844)
Joseph Smith (1844)
Lamar Smith (1955)
Joseph Standing (1879)
Emmett Till (1955)
Mary Turner (1918)
Jesse Washington (1916)
Ellen Watson (1889)
Eliza Woods (1886)
I’ve decided to compose myself, take a couple of deep breaths,swallow a couple of times, turn my head slightly away from my keyboard when drinking coffee and be prepared to laugh before I open any more mail from you!
“Thought I heard that jurors in Florida are not allowed to do any investigation/testing themselves, and if the defense were to offer various recrdings of Trayvon, the jury would be asked to compare and decide who they sound like most? How could those recordings be evidence for this use? ”
ay2z,
I’m pretty sure that it is the case in ALL states that jurors are not allowed to do their own investigation/testing. Their verdict is supposed to be based on what is presented in court, not on anything that they learned anywhere else.
Zena, yeah. Can they even share, whatever they get from any source, with the jury and ask the jury to make the comparisons as evidence that it sounds like the screams anyway?
If that’s their purpose of course.
Speaking of voice recordings, anyone notice that the defendant said “… everytime he hit me in the nose I thought my head was going to explode.” ?
Thought it was the head slamming that caused the head exploding sensations.
The defense wanting the voice recordings– they can hold trial in the public court before trial, by sharing the voice recordings that they may get, and ask the public with jury pool to compare and decide.
I’m worried that dinner won’t turn out just quite right.
I’m worried about my sons test today.
I’m worried that his band won’t play that well at the talent show.
I’m worried about that #6 cyl intake valve spring making 2 more rounds without breaking
I think O’ Mara has a problem with his bowels and his stomach, not to mention that lack of sleep problem.
I think he’s well past “…worried..” at this point.
IMHO, I think O’Mara’s most worried about stringing the paying supporters along long enough to get paid. By now he knows for certain that his client is guilty as sin.
He claims he took several hits to his nose and yet where is all the blood from these repeated hits? Cast off should have been present on TM’s outer clothing.
Zena, yeah. Can they even share, whatever they get from any source, with the jury and ask the jury to make the comparisons as evidence that it sounds like the screams anyway?
The job of defense and prosecution is to convince the jury whose voice is screaming based on evidence. The State will have the enhanced tape that captured GZ in the background cursing at Trayvon while the screaming is also heard. Also;
1. The screams stop with the gun shot. Yet, GZ says that Trayvon continued to move and talk. If that is true, then GZ should have continued yelling for help since he also said that he yelled for help to get someone to restrain Trayvon.
2. GZ said that Trayvon was smothering him, but the tape does not evidence a pause between the screams sufficient to substantiate smothering.
3. There are words heard on the tape, such as “I’m begging you” and “No” yet GZ says he only yelled “help” and “help me.”
Wonder if they found an audio expert already this week,, and that is who suggests getting the last 3 years audio.
Judge Nelson will likely repeat “you can take her deposition and ask her yourself first if she even has any audio recordings”. Don’t they listen, or are they just wanting to fill their website with motions? Or are they pushing Judge Nelson to say or do something that will cause them to ask for a recusal (again, maybe judge No. 4 will be lucky)
Don’t they listen, or are they just wanting to fill their website with motions?
That’s a problem, because those motions are not on their website. They are not on the circuit court’s website, neither on the docket sheet for the clerk of the court’s website. They might come up yet but thus far, they are only available through Twitter with the hash tag for Zimmerman.
@Xena – Someone upthread pointed out that these motions (and more are stored on a web server (link below). Interestingly, the “parent directory” for the page (is it an ftp page?) is the legal defense FUND website – not the legal website.
This is how it goes down.
After a night confab with Oysterman a brainstorm.
Foggen realises his story of the kid being the aggresor an he the heroic surviver is going to work.
Just a couple of tweaks here an there.
Cops seemed concerned as to this unarmed kids with juice an skittles would decide to attack me.
Sleeps on it an by the reconstruction next day has deceided to push.
The hey this guy was a punk thug scenario itching for to beat down my ass.
Sure he ran but he walked right back an circled my truck twice taunting me an hey.
A probably even told the dispatch that.
So foggen thinks he is planting the seeds of an agresive bang ganging type dude.
Totally forgeting that the recorded non emergancy call
Utterly refutes that lie.
How could Trayvon come back circle his car twice with him sat inside.
We here him say shit he s running an exit his truck to run after him.
So how an when was Trayvon able to circle him .
Ah details details dont matter makes the kid sound dangerous an its a good kill anyway .
This will bllow over in a couple of days.
Colin: I agree that I believe he made up that story, it doesn’t jive with the timeline nor with how he describes the unfolding events on the NEN. But, he also tells Singleton that first night about TM circling his vehicle so his mind was in motion already to come up with a supporting story.
Can I say crazy again.Cell Phone companies are right now in battle with state police & congress about keeping text messages retained for two years and the police are fighting a loosing battle right now. Cell phone companies keep text messages about 5 days & voice mails about 30 days. You only can see that a text or a voice mail was sent form a number and received at what time nothing more, they argue that it is to costly to retain more data than that. In order for Trayvon’s voice to still exist on a phone recording it as to be saved by the owner of that phone before it reaches thirty days old or it is deleted by the service provider, or it as to exist on an old fashion answering machine.
Yes i am very sure. You have them but the phone company purge theirs they don’t keep them. Like tweeter, once you delete your account its like you never existed the information is purged after 30 day.
Somehow I think that one might tick off Judge Nelson a bit.
If not, it should, imo, I mean, isn’t the defense really crossing the line on that one to keep pressing the issue, with his attorney/client privilege with the Martin family? Give it up already, Crump answered basically everything in his affidavit, it is just waste of time and another stall tactic by the defense.
On the motion regarding deposition of Crump, West claims it “was arranged over a period of several weeks”. I see the notice of deposition and it’s dated the 4th and filed the 6th. Alot of their notices are filed after the depostion has taken place (or in this case NOT taken place). Is this normal? I’m not legal smart by no means. This is why I leave the comments up to those more qualified.
But this deposition wasn’t taken. It was dated the 4th and then filed on the 6th of Feb.. The day AFTER Judge Nelson said it would be postponed until after she read the affidavit.
Will be interesting to see how Judge “I’m tell you for the third time” Nelson rules. Crump’s 15-pager submitted by Blackwell was quite detailed. What more could MOM and West want? … Doubt that they know themselves.
What more could MOM and West want? … Doubt that they know themselves.
Because the treeslummers say that Attorney Crump is a liar, the Feign Team wants to catch attorney Crump in a lie. Rather than deposing him, they want to interrogate them. His affidavit avoids that because Judge Nelson is keeping Crump’s presence in the case as a “court witness” for the limited purpose of providing information about his interview of Witness 8.
1. Mr. West did not address whether or not the affidavit provided by Mr. Crump answers the relevant questions that need(ed) to answered and, depending on the answer to that question, why deposing Mr. Crump is (still) necessary/relevant.
2. No law obliges any citizen who is not listed as a witness to submit to deposition (and the Professor may correct me if I am wrong on this one).
3. Mr. West asserts that the defense may depose Mr. Crump without leave of Court. Judge Nelsen may as well tell Mr. West, ‘well you do not need leave of Court to depose Mr. Crump. I therefor revoke the Order making Mr. Crump a witness. Do as you will and depose whomever you want. But do not come back to this Court with a Motion to compel Mr. Crump to submit to deposition’ – if he refuses to appear for deposition.
Nelson also made it clear that IF she allowed the deposition, West would not have free reign. As we can see in the motion, West is not specific as to what he would like to ask Crump and he is looking for free reign. IMO, Nelson will deny this motion, as she should.
I agree with you. Ultimately Mr. West would have to answer questions as to why (a) he still wants to depose Mr. Crump and (b) Mr. Crump’s affidavit does not answer the questions for which the judge made him a witness.
Questions regarding issues other than the tape of Crump’s interview with DeeDee fall outside the scope of the Order making Crump a witness. Mr. West would have to file a Motion to make Crump a witness with regard to those other issues. I think he may have to learn the hard way that he indeed does need Leave of Court to depose Mr. Crump.
that was a very cogent analysis but the way I see it….
OMG OMG WHAT DOES CRUMP HAVE TO HIDE??????!!!!
SEE GEORGE IS BEING RAILROADED BY THE BLACK MAFIA AND THEIR LEADER, THAT SOCIALIST KENYAN OBAMA!!!
OMG OMG!!!!
Definition: To railroad someone (v) — To charge them with murder just because they killed someone after expressing ill will. To fail to drop the charges even after learning that they sustained a few scrapes while killing. To still fail to drop the charges even after they learn it was all god’s plan.
Oh gee Malisha, there was plenty of room at the top of this post to warn us to set down our coffee! Wiping the screen and drying the keyboard is becoming quite tiresome.
Sounds like another fishing expedition. They want to find anything they can to get witness 8 testimony thrown out because they know she completely contradicts what GZ is saying. She has no reason to lie. GZ does; And like Malisha pointed out, there was another witness that testified that she also heard GZ say “what are you doing around here?” GZ never mentioned any other words stated between he and Trayvon other than the “you gotta problem?” exchange. They have to get rid of her or else he is toast (with butter, jam and all the condiments!)
@ racerrodig, T mobile 30 day, sprint 30, Verizon 21, & AT&T 14 for saved voice mails. Txt messages Verizon 3-5 days, AT&T only keeps tracking data 5-7yrs & sent & received but not the actual text so does T mobile, Sprint 90. On text. We can store on our phones as long as you like but the carries don’t retain that information. Trust me when I say I researched this. I have a teen daughter & wanted to keep close tabs so I checked around for who retain there voice & text messages & for how long.
I suspect the companies made have made some changes since the whole Mayor Kilpatrick sext message scandal that brought him down. The state was able to get many thousands of text messages, from the city’s carrier (he was using official city cell phones). When the feds got in, it jumped to tens of thousands, to and from everyone who was involved. There were so many texts that the court had two magistrates whose sole responsibility was to go through the tens of thousands of texts and find the relevant texts and/or any that were indicative of illegal behavior. The former Mayor promptly filed suit against the carrier. I’m speculating the carriers figured if they don’t save them, they can’t be subpoenaed, and then sued.
That’s the tactic used by librarians after the PATRIOT act said that the feds could get at library records and the librarians couldn’t tell anyone that the feds were in. Now my library can only tell me what I last checked out. They will keep more information if I request it. I complimented them on their policy, I like it just fine.
@ Tee
You mentioned having a teen and wanting to keep close tabs on them. That made me think about protective parents and how some use cell tracking programs. This is what I’m talking about.
My child is grown so I’m not up on the latest technology.
Do you think Trayvon’s parents used something like this? He seemed protected from the world. Slightly sheltered or “a momma’s boy” as witness 8 called him. I mean, he didn’t have a license at 17. You can get your learner’s permit at 15 in Florida.
Maybe this is what helped with the GPS from Trayvon’s cell. It could be pings or apps or whatever that tracks you but, maybe they simply tracked their teen.
We have 3 phones with Verizon. Text messages stay on the phone and not in their system and VM’s for I believe it is21 days and they tell you that when you get your VM’s The VM’s are in their system only and texts in the phone only.
Florida Rules of Criminal Procedure Rule 3.270 states: “Twelve persons shall constitute a jury to try all capital cases, and 6 persons shall constitute a jury to try all other criminal cases.”
I thought it was weird because I thought it was always 12 jurors.
So, unless the above is incorrect, Fogen will only have 6 jurors.
So, I’m either going to get a passing grade or I’m flunking, Professor?
Professors Article on Jury Selection:
(Snipped)
I was inspired by Xena to write this article today to warn the prosecution and all of my readers to take the defense seriously in the Travon Martin murder case
She said,
“In GZ’s case, O’Mara would need 6 jurors and the required number of alternates, ALL who believe in GZ’s innocence before they are sworn in as jurors. Nullification in GZ’s case would require all six jurors to find him innocent. That— ain’t — gonna— happen.”
I hope you are right, Xena, but I am not certain that you are.
I prefer to evaluate the case in terms of potential strategies and probable outcomes. I am compulsive by nature and always evaluated my cases in this fashion. There is no downside to being prepared.
Ok, I must be somewhat compulsive as well. I knew I read only 6 jurors somewhere…Which is really strange to me, because until this case, I thought every jury was made up of 12 jurors.
Very interesting though, and another thing I wonder is if these numbers vary from state to state, and for criminal/civil cases.
I guess I will save that one for tomorrow. Goodnight everyone!
I’m aware of Florida 3.270. There’s a reason I included the word “likely” in the closing part of the video:
There will LIKELY be 12 experts already in the courtroom, quite certain of whose voice it’s NOT!
It’s my understanding, and perhaps the Professor could weigh in on the validity, in Florida a defendant can file a Motion requesting a trial by a 12 member jury, instead of 6, in a non-capital criminal case.
Since a hung jury only requires the dissenting vote of ONE, it would seem LIKELY this defense would prefer a 12 member jury of possible candidates versus 6. If this is option is, in fact available, I would expect to see a Motion in this regard filed prior to trial.
Whether the jury is seated with 6, 12, or 112, the point of my short video comment is the same. With Zimmerman’s exemplar, I don’t believe they will have ANY problem recognizing whose screams those are NOT.
This does not have to be left to guesswork. With an exemplar of Trayvon’s voice, a certified expert can run some voice recognition forensic tests and come up with something, even if it is not always 100% firm. The point is that at this point in time, with identification of voices NOT forming part of the evidence that is needed to prove murder, this would only come to play if and after Fogen claimed to have been the one screaming. THEN we would hear from experts.
Daddy is not an expert. Even daddy-magistrate-veteran is not an expert. Daddy is just a lucky guy who managed to have a baby boy who grew up to…oh well, Daddy’s just some guy.
913.10 Number of jurors.—Twelve persons shall constitute a jury to try all capital cases, and six persons shall constitute a jury to try all other criminal cases.
Kimmi — I stand corrected. I said 12 last night, remembering a murder trial where I was among 12 jurors and four alternates. I recalled it as a murder 2, where we convicted on manslaughter, Also wrong.
On further review (thanks to news reports online covering a trial of more than two decades ago), we knocked it down from murder 1 (not murder 2) to manslaughter, which can be done in Florida.
The kid on trial was charged with Murder 1. (In this gang-related case, the white teenager was being tried as an adult for packing a .357 magnum to school and hiding it in his locker, then going across street to a restaurant parking lot during lunch to shoot at three rival gang members, all black. The shooter and the shootee had once been friends prior to joining different gangs. The fatal bullet was in the forehead.)
None of us on the jury wanted to see the kid fry, but with exception of one male juror, we all wanted to see him pay.
We convicted him on manslaughter because the one balky juror refused to go for murder 2 and threatened to hang the jury. We settled on manslaughter.
Although, seemingly with racial overtones — skinny white kid, shoots beefy black kid — the reality was comparatively color-blind: low-life shoots low-life. The gangs themselves (what a parade of low-life witnesses) were integrated. The jury was integrated. The judge and defense lawyer were white, the prosecutor was black,
Withheld from the jury: The fact that this kid previously had shot his step-father in the arm, and had gotten only a light tap in juvenile court. Yet he told cops on tape that he’d never shot a gun before.
I will never understand in a million years why Fogen yelped like this for that recording. Whether or not he yelled or Travyon did, doesn’t matter – the real screams were totally different and why would he not try to reproduce these?
The final scream was not even a call for help; it was naked desperation; Trayvon saw the gun and he saw Fogen’s face and he knew. And Fogen knows that that moment is preserved, like a “moment in Peking,” and that it will fight its way back into his life one day very soon, and it will never leave.
It appears O’Mara has finally gotten himself in gear. Link below to a motion to set status conference, signed today, regarding, among other things, setting an Immunity Hearing. Based on the motion, O’Mara states that the hearing must be completed by April 26th (Judge Nelson’s deadline) and should take app. two weeks. So, I’m guessing that’s a start date sometime in the first week in April. According to O’Mara’s availablility, we may have a firm date by the end of the week.
I don’t believe he functions in the same world we do. I believe he’s off in his own alternate universe, where he can convince anyone that his actions were perfectly innocent and he was just a victim.
MOM using phrases like “as soon as practicable” and “as soon as this week” might not sit well with the Judge after he blew off last month’s meeting and claimed he needed a continuance because he was not ready. Now it’s ASAP! Do you hear me, Judge Nelson!
Ha! As annoyed as she already was, I can’t see this helping. Unless, of course, he’s trying to show her that he’s doing his utmost to adhere to the court’s decisions. I wouldn’t put it past him to have been a bit snarky in his wording though. He was seriously aggravated that he wasn’t granted the continuance.
2 weeks? Can the defense then appeal that decision if it doesn’t go their way and will the appeal be heard quickly? or will that further postpone the trial until the appeal works its way through the system?
The way I interpret it is, the deadline the judge set has a built in cushion (45 days) for either side to get ready for trial and/or appeal. I remember last summer O’Mara missed the dealine to appeal for the suppression of witness #9′s molestation statement. IIRC- the Prof said it was 15 days (hopefully, he will correct me if I’m wrong). So, if the judge sends it to trial, O’Mara better get right down to the appellate court, so he can get on their docket. As for the actual procedural questions, I will defer to someone more informed. I would only be speculating.
Jun- From your last sentence, would you think that, at this point, Judge Nelson may have dates on her docket already scheduled, in that time frame? I know it’s not a big county, but do you think she would still have several days open, app. 6-7 weeks out? I’m from a big city, and judges (clerks) here have to book appearances 3-4 months out, so I’m just wondering if O’Mara may have done himself and his client a disservice by waiting so long to schedule this.
I honestly dont know much about scheduling of court
I learned most of the trial stuff on here, but we never learned about scheduling
I feel Fogenhats is just a really difficult person to deal with, along with his pops and brother, as they are all unreasonable and batshit crazy and it may not be totally Omara’s fault
I do not feel an educated lawyer would make a lot of the decisions he has made, however, he may have been forced because it was the decision of the defendant and he is not very reasonable, so any decision is bad around
It may have been Fogenhats’ scheme since start to delay and stall
I vaguely recall another judge took over a lot of Nelson’s work, to free her up for this case. The immunity hearing was pencilled in for April way back, when the June trial time was also set.
So Judge Nelson will have the time.
O’Mara is saying it will take two weeks just to make it sound like he has DAYS and DAYS worth of evidence.
O’Mara will stray from the scope of the deposition until Crump refuses to answer a question. That will show that Crump has something to hide. *ominous music*
From my understanding Blackwell would be there if there was one, there has been no decision yet in regards to the affidavit, the affidavit seemingly covers everything that is within scope of Crump’s duty to the court, and I dont see what else they want, unless they want Crump to regurgitate what is in the affidavit
PEOPLE, stop jumping to conclusions about the notice of depo. That was scheduled for 2/5 and is the depo that Blackwell filed the affidavit in response to and Judge Nelson postponed until she read it. It was posted to the gzlegal site late.
Actually, Xena, the motion has references to the just completed hearing and the affidavit. It also has references to case law that says such a deposition should be allowed.
Perhaps Crump made public statements that suggest he knows more that he can say without violating attorney/client privilege.
Actually, Xena, the motion has references to the just completed hearing and the affidavit. It also has references to case law that says such a deposition should be allowed.
The Notice of Taking Deposition that I read was to hold the depo of Attorney Crump on Feb. 5th. That was the date of the hearing in which Attorney Blackwell filed the affidavit in response, resulting in Judge Nelson postponing the deposition until after she read the affidavit.
Regardless of what West files at this juncture in effort to take deposition of Attorney Crump, Judge Nelson has already ruled — she is going to read the affidavit first and make a ruling on whether the deposition should or should not be conducted.
@bettykath. That motion wants Judge Nelson to enter her decision regarding the affidavit, and allow deposition beyond the scope of what the court has previously ruled. It is another effort to circumvent Judge Nelson’s ruling that Attorney Crump is a court witness and his deposition is limited to his interview of Witness 8. I cannot see Judge Nelson amending her ruling to allow depo beyond the scope of her ruling.
bettykath, IMO these references would apply to “regular witnesses.But Mr.Crump is a COURT witness for a specific matter so I’m guessing the defense references might not apply.
Xena, You’re changing your position mid-stream but at least we’re all looking at the same deposition now. The current deposition is not the one for the Feb 5 deposition. It is a new motion taking into account the affidavit and cites case law that supports the request for the deposition. The judge postpone the deposition until after she reviewed the affidavit. I don’t believe she has ruled since reviewing the affidavit. This motion is basically additional argument for why the judge should rule that the deposition be allowed regardless of the sufficiency of the affidavit for the witness 8 interview conducted by Crump.
Xena, You’re changing your position mid-stream but at least we’re all looking at the same deposition now.
Care to support your accusation?
By the way, neither of us are looking at a deposition because there has been no deposing of Attorney Crump.
The Notice of Taking Deposition that you referred to is the one for taking Attorney Crump’s depo on Feb. 5th. You then provided the link to the Motion to take deposition, but now you refer to the Motion as a deposition.
West gives Judge Nelson good basis to deny the Motion; i.e., she already ruled on the scope of deposition. Judge Nelson already ruled that Attorney Crump is a court witness.
Xena, You’re changing your position mid-stream but at least we’re all looking at the same deposition now.
Care to support your accusation?
——–
The thread was introduced by speciallady and Jun speaking about the new motion dated 2/13 (with a link to it) and you responded “Xena says:
February 13, 2013 at 2:07 pm
PEOPLE, stop jumping to conclusions about the notice of depo. That was scheduled for 2/5 and is the depo that Blackwell filed the affidavit in response to and Judge Nelson postponed until she read it. It was posted to the gzlegal site late.”
After I pointed out the new motion more specifically about the new motion, that’s the one you referred to.
===========
By the way, neither of us are looking at a deposition because there has been no deposing of Attorney Crump.
The Notice of Taking Deposition that you referred to is the one for taking Attorney Crump’s depo on Feb. 5th. You then provided the link to the Motion to take deposition, but now you refer to the Motion as a deposition.
——————–
I have not been referring to the 2/5 motion at all. I have consistently been referring to the 2/13 motion. In this instance I used the wrong word, please forgive me.
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West gives Judge Nelson good basis to deny the Motion; i.e., she already ruled on the scope of deposition. Judge Nelson already ruled that Attorney Crump is a court witness.
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The question about the deposition was reopened when the Crump affidavit was submitted and the judge postponed the deposition pending the request by Crump that he not be deposed at all.
You’re ignoring the fact that the new motion includes case law intended to justify the request for the deposition. It’s intended to influence the judge’s decision. The case law cited includes
* FL Supreme Court decision on the right of defense to depose any unlisted witness who may have information relevant to the charge, without leave of the court.
* many citations that an attorney who has relevant information is not exempt from deposition.
The defense is asserting that the affidavit and public statements show that Crump has such information and that the judge shouldn’t issue an order prohibiting the deposition. If she does, it might be an appeal-able decision.
I have not been referring to the 2/5 motion at all. I have consistently been referring to the 2/13 motion. In this instance I used the wrong word, please forgive me.
=================
When the subject came up, there were no recent docs filed with the court. I was relying on the court’s website and the circuit clerk’s docket. Evidently, someone in O’Mara’s office is releasing the docs via Twitter before they are filed with the court. I prefer to wait to see a file-stamped copy.
You’re ignoring the fact that the new motion includes case law intended to justify the request for the deposition.
You’re ignoring the fact that Judge Nelson already ruled that Attorney Crump is a “court witness.” Citing case law that does not apply to a “court witness” is nothing more than wasting ink and paper, IMO.
* FL Supreme Court decision on the right of defense to depose any unlisted witness who may have information relevant to the charge, without leave of the court.
Attorney Crump is a “court witness.” That is what the person in the black robe ruled. Remember at the last hearing when West attempted to tell the Judge the rule, that Judge Nelson stood on her ruling that she would read the affidavit first.
The defense is asserting that the affidavit and public statements show that Crump has such information and that the judge shouldn’t issue an order prohibiting the deposition. If she does, it might be an appeal-able decision.
West approached the court regarding Crump’s interview of Witness 8. He said nothing about deposing Crump on other matters. Then, West issued a subpoena for depo that Blackwell says is over broad. That clearly demonstrates an intent by the defense to circumvent Judge Nelson’s ruling. The most recent motion verifies that the defense wants to depose Crump beyond the scope of the court’s order. The motion is not specific about the information it thinks Crump may have.
Very soon it will become apparent that Mr. West is using that legal instrument of deposition to taunt and humiliate Mr. Crump and continue the witch-hunt started by the Conservativedoghouse.
I read the intro on Amazon and then bought a copy for my kindle. Have to go to the laundromat and can’t just sit there watching my undies go round and round.
He’s angling for a lucrative, high profile gig as an expert witness at the upcoming trial. “The Man Who Wrote the Book” on the Trayvon Martin shooting forensic evidence–Woweee! Top that, Bernie! (Nevermind that his timeline analysis is derivative and the methodology in his shooting reconstruction hopelessly flawed.)
Another thing about the 911 scream tape evidence is you do not hear any type of striking noises or blows being thrown. When someone says something, while being shaken, whatever sound they emit from their voice during the shaking, has a slight vibration to it and we never heard any of that. Lastly, we heard what sounds like a kid squealing in pain, and screaming in fear, and telling the defendant to get off him
point being, given the openness of the crime scene and the imperative nature of the fight or flight response, whoever is making those blood curdling UNINTERRUPTED screams, is being restrained, since both fight and flight leads to vocal “staccato”.
Is that so?
I am convinced that you would stop screaming if your brain is focussed on a specific task, such as the one GZ was supposedly performing seconds before the shot. You know, getting wrist control, retrieving his weapon, aiming and shooting.
You are describing the effect certain actions or emotions have on how we vocalise, if I am understanding you correctly.
I am quite sure that the terrified screams we can hear in the 911 calls, are inconsistent with the tasks GZ said he was performing. Not just that it is not logical, but most people are incapable of doing both at the same time. Like we don’t breath and swallow at the same time.
I was hoping you had more information about that phenomenon.
I am of the firm belief that those screams are Trayvon’s because
-people with loaded and available guns don’t scream like that
I am of the firm belief that Trayvon was being restrained because
-with that kind of open space he should be running or fighting
I am of the firm belief that he is not fighting because his screams are uninterrupted
I am of the firm belief that he is not running because his screams shown no Doppler or staccato effect. The phenomenon I point to can be demonstrated by anyone just try to run and scream.
@Tzar. When I first heard the NEN call, then heard the 911 call that captured the screams, there was no doubt in my mind that it was Trayvon screaming. A person who calls a stranger “assholes” before getting out of a vehicle to follow that person, then calls them “funking punks/coons” while running in chase, demonstrates intent to confront. He believes he is able to control the person he chases.
At no time did GZ say he cried “stop” or “get off,” or “you win, I give up.” At no time did GZ say that he told Trayvon he did not want to fight. What GZ did say is that he cried for help and when seeing someone, asked that they help restrain Trayvon. Thus, he tells what he planned all along.
The photo shown to Tracy to identify Trayvon says it all — a tear on his cheek, and saliva coming out of his mouth. That is the photo of a person screaming, in fear, and in pain.
You said it all. Sometimes we can forget what a horrible thing this man did, I know this because every time I review the KNOWN details of that night, I find myself shocked, horrified and disgusted all over again as if I had not heard them a hundred times before.
…I know this because every time I review the KNOWN details of that night, I find myself shocked, …
It is shocking to think that GZ could take Trayvon’s life and blatantly lie with such confidence that he believes it was God’s plan. It is God’s plan that GZ spend the rest of his life in prison.
And I believe God’s Plan is a good plan. The worst part is during his alleged reenactment when he says he drew his firearm, aimed and fired one shot…..he shrugs his shoulders with a “….what are ya gonna do…” look. As if this is an everyday thing.
I hit the bed frame with my big toe, it hurts but what are ya gonna do?
I spilled that soda all over the counter…..hey, what are ya gonna do?
I just tagged that stopped car, it was just an accident…hey, what are ya gonna do ??
I was late for work again today, what are ya gonna do ??
I pulled my firearm, aimed and fired one shot…..hey, what are ya gonna do ??
@racerrodig. Well, since he had already left his home and was being harbored by Osterman, GZ was prepared to avoid arrest. His shoulder shrug no doubt included, “This is my story. If you don’t believe me, and since I’ve left home, what are you gonna about it?”
Ah, we should have known from the very start
That this story will leave us with broken hearts
Now listen people what I’m tellin’ you
You keep away from that FogenPhoole too
Slim used to leave us with a smile on our face
His touch was there and with a warm embrace
So if you all wanna stay real safe
You keep away from that FogenPhoole too
Chorus
Fogen likes to travel around
He’ll lie and then let ya down
Now people let me put you wise
Fooo – geeen, he lies lies, lies
Here’s the moral of the story from the guys who know
Fogen loves to tell ya all that he knows
Ask any Phoole that he ever knew,
They’ll say keep away from that FogenPhoole too
Chorus
Fogen likes to travel around
He’ll lie and then let ya down
Now people let me put you wise
Fooo – geeen, he lies lies, lies
Here’s the moral of the story from the guys who know
Fogen loves to tell ya all that he knows
Ask any Phoole that he ever knew,
They’ll say keep away from that FogenPhoole too
i was just doing the lyrics and I have to thank MMP for prompting me to post the song somehow of which I had no clue as to how to do it. Turns out to so easy, I feel the fool.
As I’ve said before I’m an artiest…….yet reading this…..if it was “gods” plan to have fogen murder Trayvon so that “god” could wage his wrath against fogen, at the cost of Trayvon’s life?……..just another “god’ I have no interest in believing….
if it was “gods” plan to have fogen murder Trayvon so that “god” could wage his wrath against fogen, at the cost of Trayvon’s life?
No. When GZ said it was God’s plan, he accused God for his murdering action and made God a party in the case. What one sows, the same shall they reap. It’s the same as if GZ planted a tree that began immediately bearing fruit. Just look at the following:
1. He has health issues because he has gained 100 pounds in less than a year.
2. He is being sued by the security firm.
3. He has gone through $300,000 and has nothing to show for it.
4. His wife is still awaiting trial for perjury.
5. His brother is making a fool of himself, rubbing elbows with White Supremacists.
6. He has not gotten anything from the court that he wants; is still on the GPS ankle bracelet, cannot leave Seminole County, cannot open a bank account, denied a continuance, denied release of personal information for State witnesses.
7. He cannot afford the costs of defense, yet cannot dissolve the trust fund because he will not be able to eat.
No one wrongfully blames God and walks away without reaping.
Actually, the laws are written in the universe. God intervenes when one seeks forgiveness and is truly sorry for the wrong they commit; harm they cause others, etc. because he is a loving and forgiving God. He gives us choices. What GZ demonstrated is the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that calls good evil, evil good, and believes that God does both.
” He gives us choices.” Yes he does. I know you heard ? me say this on HP that I pray for the opportunities. I also praise him and his son and do my Christian music thing and far more often that not…
opportunities arise.
@racerrodig. I only adopted the gravatar since August, but have always used Xena with the exception of Crime Watchers. Because there was already a Xena, it wouldn’t allow me to use that so I’m Xena-Blackbutterfly there.
I’m sorry. That he “…survive that savage attack by Black Dynamite Slim…” that night. I wouldn’t want any Zidiots telling me I missed some of the facts.
Tzar I agree with you that everything you mention makes it very illogical that GZ was the person screaming. But I think there is also a physical reason why GZ can’t be the person we hear screaming.
What I am looking for is probably closer to your description of running and screaming at the same time. But I am not sure if we are talking about the same thing. Are you just describing a sound effect or are most people incapable to perform those two tasks at the same time?
I think the brain will focus you to perform one task(running, getting your gun) and stop you from performing another task at the same time(screaming).
It’s a fact that when you are forced to do something that requires effort or deep thought, it is virtually impossible to do anything else.
Try running as fast as you can and hold a conversation at the same time……
Remember some people can’t walk and chew gum at the same time. FogenPhoole would fit that one.
Yeah…he was beatin’ the crap outta me so I just laid there and took it. I yelled, I cried, I called out…..nobody came to help.
The truth is that in that real situation “Survival Instincts” take over and you’s be surprised what the brain tells your body to do. Like, fight back….deflect the blows…..flop like a fish out of water and shake that Black Dynamite Slim off…….No, I’m Fogen……..oh wait
THE GUN !!
I’m in agreement with Tzar, vigorous physical activity will cause the sound of the voice to pick up artifacts. Try recording your own voice while at rest, then try it again while doing push ups.
Now, as far as doing two things at once, it depends on the task and the environment/circumstances. Thus, if you’re discussing talking while writing a letter, or cooking, no problem. But, if you’re thinking about screaming while engaged in combat, probably not if you’re the attacker. The person attacked may scream at some point, either because they’re calling for help or because they in terror because they are losing a life and death struggle.
The person with the superior conditions does not yell or scream because they’re devoting their efforts at maintaining and/or enjoying their superiority. If GZ was calling help, it was because he was mimicking Trayvon. He could do that because he was under no threat. Thus his voice lacks the power induced by fear and/or terror.
That makes sense because GZ has the gun. Of course, if someone reaches for his firearm, he loses the luxury of talking at all, because he has to focus on keeping his weapon. The problem is, defending yourself or your weapon from an adversary, involves the use of both hands. So there is no way that he would be able to grab and hold Trayvon by the garments, unless Trayvon is offering no resistance at all.
I don’t see Trayvon lashing out with his hands at all, he’s a kid and he’s in awe of adults. He’s a terrified non-combatant, thus the only defense he knows is to flee if it is possible. If not he just pulls away, twists turns and/or falls down. All in an effort to break the grip his attacker has on him.
“I don’t see Trayvon lashing out with his hands at all, he’s a kid and he’s in awe of adults. He’s a terrified non-combatant…”
I agree 100%. The way Trayvon was raised I doubt he’d be inclined to hit anyone, especially an adult. Trayvon may have had 20 – 30 seconds of WTF is this about before FogenPhoole got serious and drew his gun. At that point any intelligent person knows don’t rile this guy up any more than he is.
I can imagine during that 20 – 30 second initial span he’s now in adaptation mode….then he see’s things getting worse and I’d bet he’s thinking “….if I whoop on this guy……dad is gonna be pissed…” Remember the adult version of anything is believed before any kids version. Now Fogen draws his weapon and it’s to late.
I sincerely doubt he even thought about laying a hand on GZ, put it this way, would you even think about laying a hand on Mike Tyson?
No one in their right mind would even think of trying to match Tyson with fisticuffs. Unless you are a trained prize fighter you wouldn’t even think about it because you know you don’t stand a chance.
Only in comic books do they show people wrestling with lions, tigers and lizards. Because in real life you’d only be killed really fast. Those cute little cats weigh 700 lbs and can break a person in half with a swat of a paw. Part of human intelligence is knowing when not to go up against a superior adversary. To a child, even small adults are superior. Big adults like GZ are very imposing authoritative figures. GZ wants you to believe that Trayvon is a savage and dangerous thug because he’s black and all blacks are battle ready and dangerous savages at birth.
For trying to peddle that bit of intelligence insulting insanity alone, GZ should be punched in the mouth every five minutes!
off topic, but I heard some GPS systems have their own battery and can record voices even if the phones battery is dead or not in it.. Is that true? If so then could there be voices captured on Trayvon’s phone GPS? hmmmmm
Xena, thanks for the explaination about yesterday’s docs coming out on a Twitter account before they were posted at the gzlegal website. Judge Nelson doesn’t read news, so maybe she also doesn’t follow Twitter and like me, was thinking things got posted first on the defense website. It’s shocking really. There should be some rules of procedure for court documents publication, because if the docs were supplied to an intern, or junior or anyone else before they became ‘court document’, what happens if the doc is never filed and never will be filed as shared?
O’Mara’s people give documents to a non-client to publish to the jury pool BEFORE they are submitted to the court?
There is no reason to opt for Twitter broadcasting, other than to reach the jury pool as quickly as possible.
There is no reason to opt for Twitter broadcasting, other than to reach the jury pool as quickly as possible.
It’s my impression that the Feign Team posts docs through Twitter for the benefit of the Zidiots so they can develop their conspiracy theories and false hypothesis. It’s more like propaganda.
Ya know I believe that Junior is doing nothing more than pimping off his brother for $$$$$$$ with the interviews and such…….And it would benefit Junior if fogen (is) convicted because it will only be Junior than will be able to continue the talk show circuit,$$$$$$$$$$$$……….. as opposed to fogen being acquitted…because then it would be fogen on the talk show circuit $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
Naw I really believe Junior could give a rats ass about his brother
I really don’t see the similarity but at least Buttafuoco was gettin’ some. Buttafuoco tried to disappear from the embarrassment whereas Jr is a media hound, not to mention a 1st class fruitcake.
From what I heard these 2 hated each other so badly Jr actually did give a rat’s ass to his brother. He didn’t care about his brother, just gave his a rat’s ass…..and actually, both deserve one.
Can’t wait to Jr on Bill Maher !! the same one who called FogenPhoole a “…big fat fucking liar…”
I’ll take “Famous TV Interview Ambushes” for $5,000.00 Alex.
@mmp….. i’ve been saying this for some time now. rzj couldn’t care less about his lil bro. he wants nothing more than for gz to be convicted. he ONLY cares about self promotion. It’s so obvious that he’s extremely jealous of his brother’s noteriety and that he has trumped him in the Zimm family hierarchy. i think rzj is even more disturbed than gz. gz is evil alright, but rzj somehow gives off an even worse satanic vibe. go figure.
i love bill maher, i went on 1 date with him in my native L.A., in the early 90′s. he was a complete gentleman, scary smart, pleasant and amusing. but…..let’s just say i was advertinsing falsely (young and dumb back then), and our signals got crossed, and one date was enough for both of us. mr. maher likes his women…..to be…… experienced.
I just hope that bill grills him like he deserves to be grilled. so far NO other interviewer has. NO, not even arrogant piers morgan.
I love me jackets. Haven’t heard that one in a long time !!
But on the other hand Jr isn’t smart enough to realize he’s been “Owned” At least Joe “Rent a Friend” Oliver realized he was done and you could tell he wanted to be anywhere but there.
You got that right !! Bill is likely to say “..why do you feel compelled to lie” Jr will say at least once “…were you there..? when backed into a corner. Maher will own him then.
Bill Maher “Who the fuck do you think you are kidding with that nonsense? It is pretty obvious you brother never got assaulted or attacked. He’s a big fat fucking liar. He targeted, and stalked this kid, and when he caught the kid, your brother confronted, threatened, and attacked the kid. One’s a 17 year old teenage boy with only Skittles and Ice Tea. Your brother was stalking the kid and calling him a fucking coon, while chasing the kid with a gun.”
Junior “Were you there? Why do you not stick to the facts?”
OMG I hope Bill Maher doesn’t back down on questioning RZJ. He doesn’t seem like the type to ask softball questions and agree to disagree like Piers Morgan.
Bill does his homework and there’s just so much there for him to use, this thing is “gotcha” rich! Big 8″ thick, rich veins of Gotcha’s running all through the mine you can’t drop a shovel without hitting ore. LOL
Doesn’t he realize he’s tap dancing in the minefield ?? !! This nut is going on National TV with Bill Maher who has expressed his feelings about this in no uncertain terms and thinks he’s coming out unscathed ??
I’ll take “Utter Top 5 Morons” for $5,000.00 Alex.
“This nut is going on National TV with Bill Maher who has expressed his feelings about this in no uncertain terms and thinks he’s coming out unscathed ?? ”
This only proves to me the insanity of the Zimmerman KKKlan who think they can “outwit” people who are much smarter than they are with double-talk. I can’t imagine RZJ would want to expose himself to someone like Bill Maher other than RZJ has delusions of grandeur like his brother and other family members.
Not many morons volunteer to be the guest of honor at an execution. Does FogenPhoolesPhuckingPhamily have any idea what Mahar has said about this……..Yeessh !!
I saw that post and he may hate him, after all they were estranged for 10 years so who knows. If he is trying to seal his fate, he’s doing a damn good job.
In a separate development, attorneys in the case have set a hastily-scheduled hearing for 4 p.m. tomorrow to discuss whether Zimmerman’s “stand your ground” hearing, at which he’s expected to ask for immunity, should be delayed.
SheLie wants to make sure FogenPhooles plastic surgery is all healed up in time for that big fleeing moment. She was trying to get in the medical profession after all. Look at the great job she did on the fly with a few knuckle bandages. Just imagine the job she can do in the plastic surgery field.
Jun, diary’s point is that the reporter made a mistake. The motion doesn’t say anything about a delay. It’s basically a planning session with a decision at the end so they all know when to show up ready to do the self-defense hearing.
> Sometimes there’s more to a defense motion or other filing than what is stated in it.
> Sometimes reporters know more about the situation because they have spoken with the defense and thereby gained more insight.
> Sometimes intuition is a valuable analytical tool – especially when it’s based on historical experience or observations. That is, “reading between the lines” is an important skill to hone in the rough-and-tumble world of litigation … if you don’t like being duped or surprised. (And I’ve seen some darned good intuition on this blog.)
I totally agree & ask the prof if he would consider Dorner. Now I think it is even more important. The police are becoming more & more dangerous to regular people
Maybe the Prof. can start a new blog for that………I do find it interesting…”charred remains”….so forensically there is no way of telling if it was a self inflicted gunshot wound…….. I Used to live in So. Cal…..Different county…..I would avoid going thru LA as much as I could….not just that I don’t like cities……LAPD and their sheriffs dept are complete a$$holes from my own personal experience with them….
I DO NOT JUSTIFY DORNERS ACTIONS
I do believe there is more to his claims than LAPD want to admit.
Back in the 70′s I was busted with a kilo of weed….before they changed the search and seizure laws…..never made it to arraignment as my lawyer had shown illegal search and seizure PRIOR to arraignment…..A deputy kicked the sh*t out of me in the hallway when I was released less than 18 hours after my arrest….
mmp,
I’ll go you one better.
San Diego PD arrested me, taking a cellophane wrapped candle the size of a kilo of marijuana, and covered with alfalfa , along with a jar of silica sand w/a “things go better with coke” label as “evidence” of my crime(s) in the early 1970′s. I made bail, and when Monday rolled around, my atty learned there was no arraignment and/or record of my having been taken into custody !
I told MMP about your invite. I told him we have a real good thing there and I thank you again.
My son did 2 song rewrites tonight. See…..he and his friends have a real problem with a psycho like Fogen murdering the residents or guests in the community. They’re pretty involved in the topic so I hope there is no age DISCRIMINATION on that….
I cut him loose and I think he did a pretty fair job. He had a problem with one of the lines on “Renegade” and I think you’ll identify it when you spit you beverage at the screen.
@racerrodig. No age discrimination on Blackbutterfly7. There are some people who comment using 4 letter words however. I’m vegetating on cold medication while watching a Planet of the Apes movie marathon. LOL!!!
I still have 2 grown children who live in the Springs. Both have been profiled on more than one occasion. My daughter’s husband is an E-7 at the Academy. They own their home at the No. end of town in a good area, drive nice vehicles with AF stickers and yet still get hassled… I read the Gazette most every day because I know so many people and so many of my kids friends from K-12 have ended up in the obits (I guess I’m a bit morbid in that respect). Sad. Needless to say I’ve followed Carriers trial (Dietra Farries and many others too). Good ‘ole Ted, wow, another church, surprised he has any followers but then again, so does fogen.
C/S to me is evil, yet I still visit and sometimes feel torn, 20 years is a long time. Lots of bad memories but I’m somehow drawn to it. Worked as a cosmetologist at the Broadmoor for a good while, it was like going to Disneyland every day, couldn’t wait to get to work and sad to leave at the end of the day. Love Colorado history. Ahhh but I digress; LA is home and always has been (even through the 20 years).
Anyway, I just wanted to touch base, wondering if you knew anything about Carrier’s sentencing date, he’s such a scumbag, LIFE w/o parole!
BTW….haven’t heard the latest on carrier the child molesting cop……Co Springs is also the home of ted haggarty….and he has a new church goin’ already……The “Springs” is the BIG CITY to me……..get most of what we need no farther than Woodland Park.
It’s a distressingly conflicted situation, the LAPD is far from a bunch of angels, as we’ve seen over the years, and yet we can’t agree with Dorner either. It’s terribly difficult to attempt to render the finer points of the matter, seeing how easy it is to be misinterpreted, so everyone simply stands clear.
I don’t condone what this rogue cop did. I believe every word he said, but the way to get his message across was not to shoot innocent people. He knew he was not going to come out of this alive. The LAPD has been corrupt for years. Look at the fact that they had Stephanie Lazurus on the force since the 80′s and she was just arrested and convicted last year of murdering her ex man’s wife! She was a suspect way back when the young lady was murdered, but of course, they covered it up for one of their own. Her dad tried his best to keep this in in the news so that he could get justice for his daughter. I am glad he and his wife never gave up the fight.
Now that would have been a much better idea and he could send little packets of evidence to various newspapers, implicating and exposing various people. Over time it works like a Chinese drip torture, no one knows whose going to come under scrutiny next.
After a while he’d have had them all scrambling for the hills, doing more dirt to cover their tracks and making matters even more complicated by committing even more and bigger offenses.
Instead he does this and gives them cover! Poor plan, bad outcome.
You’re comment as to how he could have done it are completely Sun Tzu’s teachings
“Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent’s fate.”
In the “war” one has to think about sparing lives. Because no one is innocent, it’s just a matter of what we’re guilty of.
Each time the overseer cracks his whip as some peon hefts another 50lb bushel basket of coffee to the mill, we coffee drinkers are guilty of that.
While I acknowledge the existence of corruption in the LAPD, I think that it is a serious mistake to give too much credence to Dorner’s point of view. From what I’ve read elsewhere, he in fact has a lot more in common with GZ than the things that LLMPapa included in his video a few days ago. For one thing, he seems to have had anger issues dating back many years, and to believe that it was appropriate to use violence/physical force in response to verbal insults. He wanted a law enforcement career, but was not emotionally suited for it. He seems to have had difficulty following orders, and he had a know-it-all attitude. The timing of his coming in on the kicking complaint makes it seem that it was retaliation and/or an attempt to avoid consequences for his training officer giving him an unfavorable report. He probably already knew that the father of the mentally ill man was pursuing a complaint on the matter. Yes, he had complained about corruption in the LAPD – but I have seen no evidence that he actually did anything positive about exposing or publicly exposing corruption. The discussion in his manifesto seems to be self-promotion.
This is not to say that Dorner is like GZ in all respects. For one thing, he was smarter and more articulate. For another, his family is not playing a sleazy “blame the victim” game. They have condemned his actions and expressed their regrets.
Is there any way that Judge Nelson can put a gag order on this IDIOT? he is doing his best to taint a possible jury pool. there is one thing about these two brothers, they do not listen at all. dispatch told Fogen we don’t need you to do that and, their father told JoonYah to stay out of his brother’s case. they don’t listen worth a damn do they?
I think I finally figured it out. Jr. Hates GZ and he knows that every time he opens his fool mouth, he makes GZ look even worse. I think he’s trying to put his brother away for life.
BINGO! Exactly what I’ve been saying for a few weeks now. RJZ wants nothing more than for GZ to be convicted! He’s exceedingly jealous of GZ’s noteriety and “success” (by Zimm standards……anyway), and is PO’d that GZ has trumped him in Zimm family hierarchy. If GZ is convicted, HE gets to step up HIS media tour of SELF PROMOTION. If GZ is not convicted, he’s back to just being a short, stumpy, make-up wearing, unemployed, sciopath with nothing more to do than stare at himself in the mirror. Well lets just say, I’ll have to get used to seeing his wretched mug on TV, because Fogen must be convicted!
That supports my statement. The court can issue a gag order to prevent the parties in the case and their attorneys from commenting in public. Junior is not a party in the case anymore than we are. He’s just another citizen expressing opinions (however repellant they might be) about the case.
I know that the UK puts some limitations on what the public and media can publicly post about cases in progress as well as in other situations in which privacy laws or something like that are invoked. Maybe someone can elaborate who knows more than I do.
Messing with the jury pool is a messy and dangerous fools errand. Imagine yourself being fooled by the news and as a non-racist juror, coming to court with a preconceived notion that you’re going to hear exculpatory evidence that confirms what you heard on the news and on the teevee shows.
Only to have yourself disabused of those notions in court. The defense doesn’t put on the “good evidence” you heard on tee vee, and the prosecution demolishes whatever the defense does put on. Then you begin to realize that, the reason you’re not hearing the same stuff you heard on tv, is because none of that stuff ever happened. On top of it all, you’re surprised to learn that GZ is a proven and demonstrated baldfaced liar too boot.
Finally he takes the stand and insults your intelligence with talk of thugs skipping through the neighborhood, while helplessly he waits and watches while his own head gets bashed in. Do you pick up on the fact that the life threatening attack ceases 40 plus feet away from where the fatal shot is fired? My guess is, you go into the jury room too disgusted to deliberate at all. The Foreman of the jury, usually begins by calling for a vote right away. That vote comes back unanimous, nobody has any questions, they don’t feel there’s anything to debate. The rest of the time is spent filling out the appropriate forms and the bailiff is called and told “we have a verdict”.
GZ stands as the verdict is read and he wets his pants and faints.
He’s toast! Judge Nelson cancels the bail and sets a date for sentencing and the lights go off. O’Mara and Company scoops up their papers and swiftly withdraws from the courtroom with the obligatory “we will appeal”.
GZ is suddenly surrounded by officers and shuttled towards a back doorway. He will be held in county lock up until sentencing, then moved to the state penitentiary.
“That vote comes back unanimous, nobody has any questions, they don’t feel there’s anything to debate. The rest of the time is spent filling out the appropriate forms and the bailiff is called and told “we have a verdict”.”
I agree other than I think the jury will play around for a day or two telling jokes, laughing at SheLie, and Taaffe and the tall tales, get a few more free meals then send the Verdict Notice. Can’t look too anxious now can we……that would hurt the book sales 3 of the jurors are going to write.
I wonder what the over / under is for the number of jurors trying to hide their laughter when they file in for the verdict. I say at least 2 give it away with the facial expressions.
Just a friendly reminder to everyone, Investigation Discovery will feature Trayvon Martin murder case tonight @8PM, or at least on my cable channel in Salisbury, Maryland.
Let me get this straight
M O M Say we pushed for time no way can we make June 10 for trial.
Now want to schedule a meeting .hearing confrence.
About a possable fortnights chinwag re the alleged upcomeing .
Not realy Stang your Ground hearing.
More a trad self defence hearing
Because you cant stand your ground if your laying on the ground.
Thats not possable due to gravity.
Like blood flowing upwards its impossable .
So even though its a trad S Y G hearing we are calling it a traditinal self defence.
Or as my client whom had decided to micro manage this case an now the depo prosess.
Just as he seems to micro wave anything that doesnt move in the oven.
He has now involved himself in security PR Strategy ..logistics depo prosess an wants to personaly oustion witness.
Anyway my client refers to this entire event as.
Justifiable Homicide an says he even told the detectives that an everything man.
He claims as he was in fear for his life from multiple sourses an threats.
Verbal
Smothering
HeadBASHING
MULTIPLE PUNCHES
An Trayvons remark after he feels he saw the gun an was possabley undeniably going to get thee gun an shoot him.
Your gonna die tonight mo fo.
Is undeniable that here towith an without malice afore thought
Drop all thease charges an declare a holiday in my honour.
O/T-
Investigation: Where’s Mark Osterman these days?
I haven’t seen or heard anything about him lately.
(Not that I really want to, but I’m very curious)
So involved in the beginning, now gone without a trace, poof!
Interesting, imo.
Need to ask a stupid question the guy who gz asks to call his wife says gz impatienly said just tell my wife I shot someone.the caller must have said more than that or how would Shelly know where he was.I really believe Shellie was in the truck and knows more than anyone will ever know.
I wouldn’t be at all surprised to learn that Shellie was in the truck but so far we haven’t seen any hard evidence to support that hypothesis. Unlike her husband she has had enough sense to keep her mouth shut about the case in public.
I don’t think she was in the truck with Fogen, Trayvon would have mentioned it. I do believe she knew that he was going out to patrol the neighborhood that night.
He did start to mention something about his wife in the re-enactment and then back-peddled and changed his statement. The way he said that made me feel that she may have been in the truck.
Count me in. If you listen to the analysis of his NEN call, there is someone with him. You can hear faint whispering and when he stutters as if he’s drunk, it’s because just before that you hear paper rustle and “….tell ‘em this..” clearly, but faint.
He stuttered because his focus was directed at something else. How many times are we on the phone or doing something and the wife / husband / child disturbs you and ……..I’m on the computer dear, be done in a minute….then your brain goes huhh and you forget……..what were we talking about…oh focus. He lost focus on what he was saying.
You also hear 2 doors close if you listen closely. There are videos all over about this. He had someone with him I am convinced of that.
On one hand, Fogen might have left his schtruck to impress Shellie – on the other hand, she discouraged him on another of his NEN calls to stay in the house and not follow the “suspect”…
Apparently the Nutter’s seem to know ShelLIE was pretty close.
According to the Nutter’s timeline, created by Diwataman,
Shellie and Osterman arrived at 7:31, so they weren’t very far.
thanks, lurker. I agree that the witnesses all saw something different MOM would subpoena only the witness/es that support the defense story. Guess it’s time to look through the witness statements to see if any of them support the defense contention that you-know-who was on the bottom. I can’t believe he is naive enough to think the rest of what I postulated is enough. Or maybe he is going through the motions expecting that they aren’t going to prevail.
I expect the prosecution might take all those witness statements and describe the elephant.
Witnes can say they saw Trayvon on top foggen on top or what apeared to the young boy with the absconding dog.
As one person laying down shouting for help.
E M T can say they cleaned up a couple of minor scrapes on foggens head,
And that he decleined not once not twice but thrice to attend a hospital for further checks.
Therfore had no visable concussion or hospital would be mandatory.
An questiong by L E nixed.
Wittnes can xlaim to have heard an seen many things.
Screams running struggling.
Remember there were at least three minutes unacounted for in foggens narrative.
In wich time a fluid struggle took place pushing pulling grabing probably fallling down wrestling.
An all this ocoured over about 170 seconds an also yards in distance an differt yards of peoples residences.
So many witnesses say differnt events at differnt times.
What the witness saw none can validate the defendants story.
In fact they damage it.
Besides to some extent what the witnes say and foggen is irrelevant.
Its what the forensics say that will detrmine the outcome of the trial.
Unlike human witnes forensics doest lie or make mistakes.
And the forensics prove with certainty that the defendant is a liar ans guilty.
Its impossable to repeatadly punch someone in the face .
Break there nose draw blood an snot
Smother that person with both your hands over his bloooody snotty possably broken nose
An also bash there head non stop.
All that alone is immpossable without at least puttting someone in a coma.
But its also impossable to do all that ##Touch all those bodily fuids
An not have one single peice of his dna on your person
Thats
NOT POSSABLE.
Wich proves that foggen is lieing about every thing.
Oh but what possable reason could foggen have to lie about stalking an murdering an innocen child?
There’s also the problem of GZ having to show that the attack he claims he suffered, was reasonably believed to be deadly, and not just claimed to be deadly, there is a big difference.
Someone pounding on you with their bare hands and no combat training at all, is hardly going to be what jurors will believe is a “reasonably deadly attack”. As a general rule, fist fights, so rarely result in deaths, or even serious injury, they aren’t even prohibited by very serious sanctions at law.
Think about it. I you attack someone with your bare hands and/or fists, you are not charged with attempted murder, as you would be if you used a knife, a gun or other weapon.
GZ is trying to push the idea that Trayvon’s bare hands were deadly. Does anyone think that an unarmed Trayvon, if attacking anyone with only his bare hands or fists, would be charged with attempted murder by a officer who came to the scene? The desk Sargent or other duty officer would approve such a charge? A prosecutor would think it’s a serious matter, enough that a judge will be impressed? Or, would they tell the officer to dial it back?
@Lonestar
Ah your missing the point It was the cement dogwal an continual BANGING BANGIN BANGING So that he felt his head would explode.
And he didnt know he was hitting him bare fisted because it felt like he had bricks in his hands.
An this is the dillema he was faced with .
Death by dogwalk imminent diperdom .
Some might argue a fate worse than death.
At least shellie would given size of his but.
Would have to use large bath towells diepers wouldnt cover it.
Anyway this was foggens mind set when he was forced to pull the trigger.
Yep, but my point is, GZ can believe whatever he wants about any particular attack. If you threw a plate of spaghetti at him, he could say he thought that was a deadly attack.
But the law, however, says that what is a reasonable deadly attack, must be from the view of the judge or the jurors, not from the view of the subject.
So, for GZ pleas to work, the judge or the jury must see and believe that Trayvon’s attack was a deadly attack and that it’s reasonable to think so.
GZ seems to think that the only way the law has to weigh his claims is to take his assumptions as true.
He does not want to face the fact that his offers are placed in the hands of jurors who may not believe that he was in any danger of being killed or greatly harmed. Maybe if Trayvon had picked up the sidewalk and hit him with it, then yes, he’d have been right. Or, if Trayvon had picked him up bodily and slammed him down on the sidewalk, then maybe. But just to have him fall and then be pushed down against the sidewalk, I don’t see how anyone can believe that would kill an adult male rabble rouser/bar bouncer who was angry and weighed 204 pounds. So, the claimed attack doesn’t even seem deadly, before we discover TM had no dna on his hands.
All the TESTAMENTARY data has been corrupted by the fact that when Fogen was first making up his stories (and neighbors were being “interviewed” by police), there were pre-arranged assumptions by pretty near all concerned that there was no real crime committed and that any old thing would pass muster to make this case go away. At the same time, however, all the NON-TESTAMENTARY data (physical evidence, voice recordings, more careful interviews and actual sworn depositions) remains not only uncorrupted but pretty much uncorruptible. That is why the defense is backed up against the wall, and on that wall, the writing already appears:
Your kingdom has been weighed in the real balances
AND * FOUND * LACKING.
Your days are numbered.
Your kingdom will be [divided between the Medes and the Persians?] turned over to the Department of Corrections of the Great State of Florida.
NEXT…
= = = = = = = = = = = =
BTW, something I have been thinking about for a long time but never got around to typing out. There IS no such thing in Florida law as a “regular” or “traditional” self-defense hearing, unless I am very much mistaken. Self-defense is a defense to a conviction, but it is an affirmative defense that gets presented like all other defenses, at trial. The reason there began to be hearings BEFORE trials was that the newer, separate, SYG laws provided for separate hearings before trials, at which point, if a judge determined that there was a SYG defense, there would BE no trial. Traditional self-defense does not call for a separate hearing.
So what IS this hearing that O’Mara allegedly wants? If there is no procedure set forth for it under FLorida law, how can he get it?
I frankly don’t think it’s legally permissible. Otherwise EVERY violent crime will have to go through two stages even if the SYG law does not apply to them. In other courts in other states, if a certain law calls for a hearing (competency hearings, mental state hearings, evidentiary hearings, etc. etc. etc.), there is a provision for the way the court is to conduct that kind of hearing. Precedent. Only SYG gives that kind of hearing in Florida as far as I know.
I’m just sitting here waiting for Fogen’s claim of acute mental illness to roll in so he can get the trial put off. Just sittin here…
Lonnie, if you threw a plate of spaghetti at Fogen he WOULD have a right to fear great bodily injury or imminent death. Spaghetti is a well-known symbol used by the Mano Nero and he would naturally realize that his life was being threatened and need all that security reinstated but there’s no money boo hoo and he would suffer superhero pasta-assault disorder and need to get that ankle bracelet off so he could go to Arizona (or somewhere) to recover…
Every event in FogenPhooles life has the same garbage. It wasn’t my fault, they did it first, I didn’t know they were cops, I was attacked, she’s mean to me, that mean old dog scared me, yada, yada, yada.
I’m sure I can find a clever use for macaroni however if he’s got a case with spaghetti….just sayin’
Soooooooo if I send him a Meaty Beaty Big ‘n Bouncy Meatball, do I get a signed thank you card, or does it depend on if he chokes on it. Hey, these are real questions……
I know of some who have PayPal ‘d him a nickle because it cost him like $5.00 to process it. I won’t give him the sweat off my XXXX just on principal but if that really is the case I say we drive him to bankruptcy by donating our 0.02 cents on a daily basis.
I’m pretty sure it’s in the budget. Then again I can send him something from my business. Be a real cool write off…….
Paypal has a basic charge of 30 cents on the receivers end for each transaction…..and then 2.95% on the balance of the money………therefor if you send him 2 cents via paypal….and it’s accepted and not returned…..then fogen’s account is debited 28 cents for the transaction.
I’m sold !! At this rate he’ll be broke in no time and the best part is that Pay Pal is on autopilot. By the time he realizes what is going on, he’ll be eligible for parole !! Xena sent you an invitation to her blog. Jump on in man, we have a good time there as well. In fact we have an entire music library there of rewrites !! Carry on wayward son…Iron Man and one just for SheLie….
So he suffers from SPAD??? How could I have missed it? Sure, in that case off with the bracelet and let him head for the hills. NOT!
“Superhero Pasta-Assault Disorder”, yeah, right!
i started to do that one but went with another song. Looks like I have requests for Casey Jones. MMP sent me a great line to use so I guess I’ll get on this.
They show some video links, don’t know when or how they work., maybe posted after the show.
I’m not sure about Maher with junior, I like Maher but there’s nothing comic about Trayvon’s killing, so thinking they may talk about guns. Maher may not be hard ball enough to be anything but softer on the killing issue and junior’s ‘big’ brother’s actions and attitudes and lies.
I may wait for a review (may have to, no cable either!)
I’ve got satellite but, I don’t have any of the premium channels but they do offer them half price for 6 months. I had thought about getting HBO just for a couple of days in order to see this circus of this media whore but, I can’t stand the sight of him or his lying murdering brother so I will pass on that. this POS needs to stop getting in front of a TV camera lying for his brother.
Fogen killed a child in cold blood and, he has been lying about the events of that night every since. him sitting in court crying last Tuesday, is just the beginning of his crying for himself. he will shed many many tears as he sits in his prison cell thinking about how he got to this point in his life. his tears are not for the young life that he took, his tears are only for himself.
I’m interested in this interview for on reason (yes, ideally my preference would be for Jr to shut up) and that is because I believe corporate journalists have been and are so lame that the comedians are more cabable and likely to do the journalists’ work. Jr might as well be confronted with a real interview instead of being treated with kid gloves.
Thanks for the link Lonnie. Bill Maher was definitely softballing RZJ. I loved the audience for applauding when Bill Maher made points about the hoodie and the fight without GZ’s gun would have been just a fight with one guy losing.
Other than that, Maher let a lot slide, including GZ getting his head beat on cement and the diagnosis by a “doctor” of a broken nose which there is no evidence of.
I would like to see Toure interview RZJ in depth and take the time to dissect RZJ’s double-talk answers.
Professor, you may have already addressed this question earlier, but if so, I missed it.
What are the rules governing evidence discovery in general, and in FL in particular, if you know? More specifically, does the prosecution have to turn over the information from Trayvon’s phone on the day of his death if it’s not exculpatory for the defendant, or can it be kept for use in rebuttal?
Thanks, groans. It looks to me like the info would be discoverable under the rules regarding experts and tests.
It also opened up a new question in my mind about whether one reason for the defendant’s decision to involve himself in discovery was for the purpose of being present during depositions and intimidating witnesses who are being deposed – DeeDee, for example.
@elcymoo: Fortunately there’s a rule addressing defendants’ presence at depositions, probably because of the concern you raise.
Rule 3.220 (h)(7) Defendant’s Physical Presence.
A defendant shall not be physically present at a deposition except on stipulation of the parties or as provided by this rule. The court may order the physical presence of the defendant on a showing of good cause. The court may consider (A) the need for the physical presence of the defendant to obtain effective discovery, (B) the intimidating effect of the defendant’s presence on the witness, if any, (C) any cost or inconvenience which may result, and (D) any alternative electronic or audio/visual means available.
I should have said “probably PARTLY because of the concern you raise.” I’d guess other reasons might be related to the fact that many of the defendants might be in jail – either held without bond, or unable to bond out.
There are three categories of evidence that the prosecution must disclose to the defense.
First, the prosecution must disclose all exculpatory evidence within its custody, possession or control. Judges and lawyers refer to this category of evidence as Brady material because the SCOTUS established this rule in Brady v. Maryland.
Second, it also must provide the defense with a list of the witnesses that it intends to call during its case in chief at the trial and a list of the exhibits that it intends to introduce into evidence. The term “witnesses” applies to police and experts as well as civilians. The prosecution also has to turn over all reports and statements prepared by its witnesses.
Third, it must turn over all statements obtained from the defendant as well as all search warrants to search his property, affidavits for those search warrants and inventories of items seized.
The prosecution is not required to identify the witnesses that it intends to call during its rebuttal case until after the defense rests. This rule recognizes that the prosecution must wait and see what evidence the defense introduces before it can decide whether to put on a rebuttal case.
How does the distinction between rebuttal and other evidence work in a case like this where the open questions are less about the killing as such and more about self defense? How does evidence that addresses the criteria for self defense fit into this?
Does the prosecution set out to prove that is was “2nd degree murder and not self defense” from the start or do they initially present evidence only for second degree murder and deal with a possible (read: inevitable) claim of self defense in rebuttal?
Yup will get posted on youtube
Probably has his own website where you can veiw it a day later or at least the network he broadcasts with .
Just google it something shoud direct you
unless someone knows the site.
off topic, but I heard some GPS systems have their own battery and can record voices even if the phones battery is dead or not in it.. Is that true? If so then could there be voices captured on Trayvon’s phone GPS? hmmmmm
Your talking about a satalite phone that could or should have that capabilaty.
Those are the type of phone explores take into the jungle amaon ect.
Places that dont have normal cell coverage.
Also they work of satttaltes in space so you can talk to some one any where in the world.
I think they stert at a pricre range of ten thousand dollars.
They also have the gps an the back up gps system you mention even if main battery dies
Its a saftey feature as it akso sends a singnal locatinig you exact cordinates.
Round the world yaughtsmen like them as there more relliable than radios for talking to loved ones.
Doubt foggen had one but could come in usefull if he wants to flee
An live in the Amaon with a tribe deep in the jungle
With a bit of luck for us an them
They turn out to be caniballs.
New thought:
1. Both DeeDee and Jenna (during her FDLE -I think- inyerview) say they heard a man say “What’re you doin’….” Jenna said it sounded like someone who was drunk, and DeeDee said it sounded like an “old man.” Jenna said she had the impression of about 4 men outside.
2. Racerrodig mentions the possibility of someone in the background on Jenna’s 911 recording saying “keep ‘em down”? or “kill ‘em now”
3. Mark Osterman for weeks kept GZ and SZ very close, right in his house. He advised GZ from the moment they left the police station together and encouraged GZ to do the interviews, to do the reenactment with himself right there. Why? Because MO bears some responsibility for this murder, but GZ is the one prosecuted. Dirty Mark is deeply involved.
Could he have been acting like some kind of director? He might have held the victim for Z. He was right there! Was he helping GZ become a “made man” (in Osterman’s eyes)? Why is he so deeply involved, and what was his involvement?
There’s something fishy as Deedee was told that it was a creepy old white man
Not arguing that Fogenhats aint creepy or considered old, but the white man part… that is where you think Ostertrench or Taffe may be involved somehow…
For example, how would Taffe know intimate details like “Trayvon did not answer Fogenhats properly” or he would not have gotten it
The Chief Zidiots, Papa Z, Mama Z, Jr, Taaffe, Osterman & Oliver all speak in 1st person or as if they saw the entire thing and God help you if you ask “…were you there…” especially JO Jr…..uhhhh.
The best part is that all of the have a slightly to very different version compared to FogenPhoole and each other.
Note to the Zidiot Nation……post what “Version of the Day” you plan to use so we won’t have so much material to beat you up with.
I’ll take “Inconsistent & Preposterous Statements” for $5,000.00 Alex
That’s a very good question, since everyone else seems to be able to identify GZ as a Hispanic guy, even when it’s so dark they can’t see what clothes they’re wearing, eh?
Jun, DeeDee was not TOLD the voice she heard was from an old creepy white man, SHE described the voice that way. “Creepy” and “white” she had already heard from Trayvon when he was telling her about being followed. She then heard, “Whatchoo doin’ ‘roun here?” and believed the voice to be “old.” Listen to Fogen’s voice, though; he sounds OLD. He sounds old and frail unless he’s reading a prepared statement.
I believe Osterman was behind the wheel of the vehicle that tore out of that complex like a bat out of HELL. he IMO was there because, he got there very quick for him to have been at his home when ShelLie’s called him. Osterman’s actions on Dr. Phil’s show was that of a man with something to hide. he seemed to be very nervous IMO and, this is why I say he is hiding something and, he was sticking to Fogen like stink on S**T trying to make sure that he didn’t say something out of the scope of the script.
I think he was with forgen as well and he threw the keys to the dog sign and ran away. But then why woould he write a book. If I was involved in any way, I would not write a book. Telling a different version that was forrgen told cops.
I think he was with forgen as well and he threw the keys to the dog sign and ran away.
There are witnesses who saw GZ walk towards the T after he got off Trayvon’s back. Jon took photos; one of GZ’s tactical flashlight, one of Trayvon’s dead body, and one of the back of GZ’s head, . Notice that the lighting in the photo of GZ’s head is much better than the lighting of the other two photos.
Jon used the key chain flashlight to give him more light in taking the photo of GZ’s head. Smith arrived and Jon dropped the key chain flashlight, no doubt to prevent Smith from thinking it was a weapon. Smith then asked “Who shot him?” Smith would have no reason to ask one man (GZ) that question had GZ been standing alone.
Knowing that the phone records are a major factor, I’m thinking Osterman was there. I think he goaded FogenPhoole into being the tough guy. I think SheLie “nags” him into trying to prove something. I think Osterman was out to get one over on the Sanford police as revenge for being fired and used a weak willed and easily manipulated FogenPhoole and it all backfired.
As a life long pathological liar GZ can only play this to bust! After the verdict and before sentencing, he may realize that he’s lost all his leverage and needs to create some new leverage before the lights go out completely forever. If not, then it’s possible that after he’s had a few weeks of real prison life, a few months down the road, he’ll probably start thinking of talking. If I understand correctly Florida Prisons aren’t exactly award winners, but it will take some time for him to realize that this is the rest of his life if he doesn’t do something fast.
Trouble is, if he has anything on any of the big players, like Chief Lee or Wolfinger or SPD members, there’s a very big risk of him being tagged as a “snitch” to place his life in jeopardy. It’s very unhealthy to be known as a snitch in prison, so the big boys can use that threat to keep the evidence against them (if any) hidden. If GZ figures this out, he’ll realize he has to move fast once the verdict is in.
Without question, he’ll have to make a move before the trial. After that the State won’t care what he has to say. The slimmest of chances during the trial but if the trial is going aces for the state he can talk all he wants, they won’t care. Lee & Wolfinger will have problems even if FogenPhoole says nothing…..Trust Me !!
Right you are, investigations are ongoing and while MOM is able to continue creating false hope, everyone’s keeping their mouths shut tight. Right now the spotlight does not seem to be on them and the charges are narrowly drawn. But that could change in a heart beat.
Oh, Racer or anyone else? Has anyone got or seen a picture of Ransberg? We saw a mug shot of Burgess, but I haven’t seen anything on Ransberg. In fact we don’t even have a first name for him, but I thought I saw an address go whizzing by in the past, I’ll have to look again. I think he’s in Colonial Village somewhere behind GZ.
I read the article you had the link for that had Ransberg in it. I find it odd he, at the ripe old age of 20, is a homeowner. I’m going to look into that one form a higher angle.
Let me say this about betting on others being charged……where’s SheLie ?? Taaffe’s been kind of quiet too….
They could be very worried if Ransberg was at the 711, that could cause the SP to go hunting for that phone the police took on February 7th 2012, or demand that they turn over the data they extracted from it. It was, after all, the SPD that claimed that phone was being used to move stolen merchandise. Wouldn’t it be funny if GZ’s number or email address turned up on it?
As I said I think I found a first name for Ransberg. In a Tampa Bay Times article, the reporter says he identified himself as Thomas Ransberg. The reporter says that he’s a 20 year old black man with dreadlocks and a home owner in RATL. In fact, in the article he points to a door and tells the reporter “I tell all the kids if they ever have trouble they can knock on my door right there (points) and I’ll be there to help. Too bad the reporter doesn’t give any locations.
@Xena
Didn’t think of that, but the keychain in my view is not there as a result of any altercation. In his reenactment, he stated the altercation stated the altercation started nowhere close to where the keychain was found. The keychain is a mystery.
- Trayvon’s screams are so filled with hopelessness and the crime scene is so open, that I immediately assumed he was being attacked or restrained by more than one person, the very first time I heard the tape.
-George thinks his accomplices will take care of him and make sure he does not go to jail, h should remember the same maxim that applied to Trayvon, “DEAD MEN TELL NO TALES”, and watch his back in the company of his accomplices.
-I will say it again, I am of the firm conviction that something much more sinister took place that night then we are being told or are willing to conceive.
I can only hope that the DA is interested in the truth and not just appeasing the crowd.
Yes, I do believe you are correct. Remember, if GZ has support with him, they don’t actually have to do anything other than stand by and watch. Just by doing nothing they show whose side they’re on and that makes Trayvon realize just how useless resistance is. If “white tee shirt” for example is standing by in the cut through, just out of sight of the eye witnesses but where Trayvon can see him, that’s a terrible threat to TM. After GZ fires the shot, stands up and backs away, white tee shirt rushes forward to check the body and is briefly seen, he quickly withdraws. The witness who saw it thinks she’s seeing things. We can’t tell because we don’t know how long the intervals are for this witness. We don’t think there should be anyone else around or involved. Of course, we don’t have any good reason for thinking that way, except for the suggestion that it was that way.
All eyes are drawn to GZ and the body, while there could have been any number of people with GZ out there, who any witnesses would simply think are neighbors who they don’t know. Before the police arrive in any great numbers, these people can simply walk away and never be seen or heard from again. Even when the police begin canvassing, they can still say they just got there and have no idea what happened. Drawn by the sirens and flashing lights, who’s to disbelieve them?
Remember, if GZ has support with him, they don’t actually have to do anything other than stand by and watch. Just by doing nothing they show whose side they’re on and that makes Trayvon realize just how useless resistance is.
you are thinking on all cylinders
but that cry…that cry tells me that they made their affiliations crystal clear
Yes, so with witnesses being so unclear about time, we can’t really know how much time elapsed from the gunshot until “white tee shirt” is seen, let alone where he went. The only person so far that wears white tee shirts habitually is Ranesburg. And there was a witness who said that someone, after the gunshot, came running north. That would leave one more black guy unaccounted for, since Ranesburg travels with two guys now that Burgess is in jail.
I’m pretty sure that’s him and his boys who met Trayvon at 711. I’ve looked at the video and it seems to be telling me that Trayvon was waiting outside the store for them to arrive. TM leaves the store and waits outside for perhaps 30 seconds or so, before a car pulls up and these guys come into the store. So then, why doesn’t TM start walking back east immediately when he leaves the store? Isn’t that what he would do if he wasn’t meeting someone?
Of course, if you were meeting someone then of course you would wait for them. The fact that he didn’t have to wait long means very little. He should have been on his way east and they should have had to call him back, if they weren’t planning to meet. So, that means they’re the ones who lured TM out of his house, for this rainy night trip to the store.
In the burglary reports we read about this Emmanuel Burgess. We discover that he stole a laptop from Dreamcis on 2/6/12 and he’s seen hanging around with three other guys on 2/7/12. The police respond and search the guys. In the backpack of a guy named Ransburg they find Dreamcis laptop, Burgess claims it as his, says he brought it last night, then runs away. He’s caught in the next community over where Ransburg lives, and he’s taken in and violated on his parole. So, now Ransburg has only two black crew members left. That’s three right? Now look at the 711 video.
There’s one white guy and two blacks, unless I miss my guess that’s Ransburg and what’s left of his crew.
Note how the hide their faces. Note how Ransburg can’t resist unfurling his braids and showing them on the cctv. Why? Does he have some clue that this video is going to be widely viewed?
Burgess lives in that last row of buildings just south of the east gate. His place has a excellent view of the entire dog walk corridor. Exactly what you’d want as a neighborhood thief. This groups specialty seems to be entering through open doors or windows or breaking glass to open an enter. They mainly steal electronics, like computers smart phones, ipad, iphones and jewelry.
The stolen computer is worth 3,000 so what’s it doing in Ransberg’s backpack? Is he the gang leader? Does he know GZ? Is GZ the fence using eBay? Is GZ po’d because he needed that laptop and they lost it? Could they have lied to him, and told him it was stolen from them by another gang? When GZ got made and threatened to put them all in jail, they then told him “hey there’s the dude whose gang stole the computer from us”.
All speculation of course, I don’t even know if that is Ransberg at the 711, I’m just guessing that it might be. It certainly seems that Trayvon was not finished his business there, so that’s probably why he leaves the store and doesn’t immediately start walking home. Sure enough a car pulls up and seconds later these three enter the store with their faces covered. http://tinyurl.com/che8csw
I think there’s one of those “funny coins” on the floor. It’s a coin that’s either been crazy glued to the floor, or nailed to a wood counter, that tempts people to try to pick it up. Hours of amusement for clerks working the night shift at convenience stores nation wide. Tells me Trayvon doesn’t go to these kinds of stores very often, if at all. He walks back, to where the sight of that coin has been bugging him, he attempts to pick it up, then tries to act nonchalant when he fails. I see this all the time, they’re pretty common.
He walks to the front and out the door and just stands there for about 25 to 30 seconds before the car pulls in.
Good I’ll be waiting to read your remarks, they’re always useful. I may have found a first name for Ransberg, it could be Thomas according to a Tampa Bay Times article that was pulled. The article which I found and posted on my evidence pile, says he’s black with dreadlocks and a 20 year old RATL homeowner. Obviously someone lied and TBT reporter just lapped it up. This Ransberg sounds to me like a white, black wannabe. Did you know that there are white people who want to be black? Yep, I’ve even run into a few over the years.
You did not answer my earlier question. If Ransberg knew that something was going to happen concerning Trayvon, why would that cause him to want to show off for the video camera, as you claimed?
You did not answer my earlier question. If Ransberg knew that something was going to happen concerning Trayvon, why would that cause him to want to show off for the video camera, as you claimed?
Oh, wow, I thought you were joking.
Okay, let’s try this… If he knew something was going to happen, involving Trayvon, then he would think that the store videos would be pulled. If the store video would be pulled, then which parts of the videos would the police and/or the media be interested in?
You guessed it, the parts closest to Trayvon’s attendance at the store.
So, if he has a clue, then wouldn’t it be a great chance to get on tv by simply performing in these few minutes? After all, no one knows who you are and they can’t connect you with Trayvon, because he’s not on camera with you.
If that’s what he was thinking, he was exactly right eh? millions of people across the nation and around the world are going to see him shaking out his braids on youtube and in the media.
Of course, he’s got to know that whatever it is, is going to be more serious than just a little incident, eh? Police don’t pull videos for minor stuff like that, so then, why are they hiding their faces? Why is Trayvon waiting out side for them to come out, before he starts back to home? In fact, why do they only pull up, after Trayvon comes out of the store? And why does Trayvon wait 30 seconds for them to pull up?
If Trayvon wasn’t there to meet with them, when he left the store with his purchases, he should have immediately started back east, having nothing more to do in the area! The fact that he didn’t do that, and he waited until these guys came out of the store before he left, says they had business together. What it was, we do not know, but it’s safe to say that they are the reason that Trayvon left home for the store on a rainy Sunday night without telling anyone, not even DD what he was up to.
All Trayvon told DD was that he was going to the store to get Chad some skittles. Chad, on the other hand said that Trayvon told him, that he was going to the store and asked him if he wanted anything, he told Trayvon he wanted skittles. So, Trayvon had some reason that he wanted to go to the store for and it was a reason he didn’t want to share with anyone.
If these three know GZ, it’s very possible that GZ told them he was planning to do something serious to Trayvon that night. It is possible that these boys blamed or instigated GZ to go after Trayvon, instead of directing his anger at them. It would also mean that they are the trackers.
Trayvon could answer any questions because he had no idea what he was talking about.n he lived 250 miles away in Miami.he knew nothing about any crimes in that neighborhood. Do you think he was killed because he couldn’t answer the questions
Do you think he was killed because he couldn’t answer the questions
GZ killed Trayvon because Trayvon’s screams for help brought the attention of residents. GZ pulled his gun, but that didn’t stop Trayvon from crying out. As GZ told Hannity, he was terrorized with the thought that the cops would arrive and find him standing there with his gun in his hand. When GZ says he was out of time, that is what he is referring to.
Trayvon had no answers to any questions, nor did anyone have any right to ask him any questions. Only Taaffe and GZ think they had a right to ask questions and get answers.
If that’s the case, then what kind of answers were they seeking? What kind of questions did they have to ask? They must have thought those answers were pretty darned well important to kill for not getting them, eh? Maybe Taaffe should be sent to Camp X-Ray for questioning? lol
Here’s hoping that all of this is going to come out during the trial and, also that who ever else is involved in this will be arrested on the spot. Osterman IMO definitely was involved in this murder in some way.
No problem, thank you! It was one of the things I learned here.
I thought, until this case, juries always had 12 people, which was much to my suprise. I still haven’t checked to see how that compares with other states. Where I am, (MI), I think it is 12, but I’m not really sure anymore. I might try to research that after I get to the end of this page, if I can get to it before the daughter gets home from school.
I tried researching the number of jurors for the different states, and it seems like most states have 12 jurors for criminal cases.
I’m all confuzzled why Florida would only have 6, as I was before, and I don’t quite understand the differences from state to state.
Oh well, it must be a decision left up to each state, I guess.
Racerrodig, yes that is true in Florida, 12 for capital cases, but states w/o capital murder (death penalty), like MI, use 12 jurors.
Maybe that is the difference?
The states with the death penalty use 6 jurors for criminal cases, 12 for capital murder, whereas, states like MI, (w/o death penalty), use 12 jurors for criminal cases?
Maybe we figured it out!!
I found this a few ago, although still nothing for each state.
GENERAL PRINCIPLES IN CRIMINAL TRIALS
“[B] Required Number of Jurors – Although a jury composed of as few as six persons is constitutional [Williams v. Florida, 399 U.S. 78 (1970)], the current requirement in federal criminal trials is that a jury must be composed of twelve persons [Fed. R. Crim. P. 23(a)] Many states likewise require a 12-person jury in criminal trials.”
This is the problem I see with Omara’s argument regarding the difference between SYG and what he calls traditional self defense hearing
a) There is less flexibility with the self defense law written beforehand
b) The way he is interpreting the law, the victim, Trayvon, would have absolutely no rights whatsoever, for simply trying to avoid the aggravated stalking of the defendant
I say this because, let us say Trayvon did pin the defendant on the ground and then yell for help. The SYG specifically states that one is allowed to use reasonable force to defend themselves. From the evidence, the incident started when the defendant decided to target and stalk the victim. The victim tried a reasonable means by running away to avoid the situation. The victim thought he lost the defendant, so he decides to walk. Soon, he notices that the defendant is about to catch up to him, so the victim tries to escape again. The victim soon gets worn out and tries to talk his way out of the situation by asking “why the defendant was stalking him”. The defendant once he catches the victim confronts him and lets him know the victim, according to him, has no right to walk down the street or avoid him or be around anywhere walking down the street, which is translated from his “What are you doing around here?” really angrily. The defendant than attacks the victim, to which the victim is heard saying and telling the defendant to “get off him”.
Obviously, even without any fighting training, the victim tries to get away, by yelling for help, and trying to get the defendant off of him…
I honestly feel w6 is lying, because the forensics do not show the defendant ever being reasonably on his back for any amount of time, and even then, maybe 1 second on his back, but that is being generous, considering his back contained no debris or grass smears at all (grass is hard to get out of clothing)… but even if we are to believe w6, clearly by the witnesses and forensics, Fogenhats initiated and instigated the whole turn of events and then escalated the turn of events
exactly, IF fogen had shimmied himself away from the sidewalk the upperback of his jacket would SHOW that clearly, bir wrinkles and mud/grass smears because all of his and martins weight would be on that shimmying part making ground contact.
He would have also had some damage done to his jacket as well, as in tearing it in some places or there would have been some shredding of his jacket. a liar is a dangerous person and, Fogen is both.
Right, Jun, and that’s what Fogen and his Outhousers and Chief Lee and Mouth Mahaney (et al.) really MEAN: Trayvon Martin was inferior and was not entitled to protection or respect. Thus, when Fogen sought to nail him and tail him, his was not to question why. His was not to “run” or to “get away” or to “mouth off [Lee's words! I believe]” or to fight back in any way, shape or form. He was not allowed to “savagely attack” his natural superior! He was required to scrape and bow and say, in effect, “Yassuh, what is it that I have done to displease you massa?”
Why didn’t he know that?
He didn’t know that because it is a secret code, not public information. Up until 1865 it WAS public information in the South but now it is a secret code. And if you allude to that secret code, you are being a “reverse racist.” As Maher says, denying racism is the new racism.
Trayvon Martin has been branded (postmortem, to the everlasting shame and disgrace of all who take part in it) a thug because he (allegedly) tried to defend his own life. He was, according to them, not allowed to try that. Under any circumstances.
And this is what we are fighting. Liars and murderers who have their own twisted view of the world and they have guns. OMG.
Do you think Omara is consulting with Bill Lee or that guy who supposedl named his son after fogen’s father and are they witnesses in the trial. Sorry I’m very bad with names.
May I just say imho because God knows that’s all I have.I personally don’t believe one thing fogen said describing what happened.I believed he walked over saw Trayvon strolling down the path went back towards his truck was angry because the teenager was no longer afraid.I think he went down between the houses on the same side as his truck then was not far behind TM Thats when TMtold DeeDee he was follow him again.fogen confronted Trayvon.When Trayvon saw the gun he began runnig north fogen caught up.TM screaming.fogen murdered him.Probably makes no sense with evidence.
a. “he is a black male”
b. “he is running”
c. “he ran”
d. “I don’t know where this KID is”
e. “Yes” (in response to “are you following him?”)
f. “I shot him”.
Since about June I’ve been saying that there are only 2 things Fogen has said about this event we know are true not including the obvious which you have as a. b. c. d. & e.
1) “…and then I got out of my truck…”
2) “…I drew my firearm, aimed and fired one shot” (stupid shoulder
shrug)
I believe in six things Fogen said, name
a. “he is a black male”
b. “he is running”
c. “he ran”
d. “I don’t know where this KID is”
e. “Yes” (in response to “are you following him?”)
f. “I shot him”.
The rest is fantasy.
We could add “…I was on him…”
There are thousands of pages of documentation, statements, reenactments, interviews etc and there are 7 things we agree are the truth, 8 if we agree “…I was on him..” is valid and I see no reason to dispute that. I will defer to you on #8
I hope that Judge Nelson doesn’t grant the ‘emergency’ meeting that the defense is requesting because they had plenty of time on February 5th to request any items that they wanted.
The defense also wants to pressure Judge Nelson to make a decision on whether Crump’s affidavit is adequate to exempt him from being deposed.
I doubt that Judge Nelson will appreciate the defense attempting to bully her about this matter since they have been dragging their feet and have canceled a majority of the scheduled hearings.
If Judge Nelson does grant the emergency request she should force the defense to bring the CD’s that the state gave them and force them to play them in court to make sure they are blank and the defense isn’t bullchitting again.
Actually, he’s not wrong on anything I can tell. He is MISSING a lot, but what he speaks to seems factually correct.
Of course, the gap between the t shirt and hoodie could also have been caused by Fogen pulling with his other hand, while illegally trying to detain the youth, as he himself spoke about in regards to the “help” he claims he was asking for.
I’ll not make judgements about his book until I read it. But channel six did a good job, and it also looks like they threw in two new shots from the night of the shooting – one showing the “pseudo ridgeline” possibly over on RVC and another that may include the body but is improperly exposed.
I think you defeat your own argument when you at the same time, on the one hand argue that “ Actually, he’s not wrong on anything I can tell”, and on the other hand that “He is MISSING a lot, but what he speaks to seems factually correct”.
By the way, this “expert” did his demo standing face to face with his “victim”, both hands fully stretched and aimed at the “victim’s” heart. GZ claims that he was lying on his back with Trayvon mounted on his stomach, straddling, suffocating him, etc. Also, when the kill shot was fired, GZ’s elbow was on the ground, bent and extended to the right away from his body. From that position, GZ could not have made the same shot produced in the demo of this “expert”. There is NO SUBSTANTIVE relationship between the demo of this “expert” and the Zimmerman-scenario. Applying the results of the demo to GZ is a serious non-sequitur (no relationship between premise and conclusion; conclusion does not logically flow/follw from the premise). Based on that it is also hard to see how this “expert” “seems factually correct” (whatever you mean by that).
I’ll have to second that. Here’s an expert trying to tell us that there’s good and sufficient reason to believe the claims of the defendant, yet he’s modified his experiment to obtain the results he claims demonstrate the truth of the matter.
That is not something an “expert” should ever do. If and when any expert is caught doing this in front of a jury, the answer is swift and resounding repudiation.
What I think is happening here is, this “expert” has noted that the GZ supporters lack expert opinion. So, he’s decided that, without compromising himself too badly, he can rush in, fill the gap, and make a ton of money. I think he’s misled. He probably doesn’t realize that the 300k GZ received was a result of “bundling” by the racists. They have software they use to make it appear that huge donations really come from a large number of small donors. When, in fact, they come from a few large donors.
I expect this guy’s book will do about as well as Osterman’s. While this case has moved a huge number of eyeballs, it hasn’t moved much money at all. This is because most people don’t feel they have much power to do anything except to put their support behind the family of Trayvon and express their outrage at the way this case has been handled. I think most people today are savvy that huge public interest stories will be used to pry dollars from their hands by some individuals. So, people are not going to respond to indiscriminate reaches for their money.
searching mind – whatever, pal. It seems you and he both agree that Fogen was on the bottom. All I am saying is that he managed to produce a similar stipple and hole pattern by aligning the two shirts three inches apart. I find no fault with that conclusion, and in fact we see him replicate the test for tv news.
Many things are possible; what GZ claims about his MOVEMENTS is not possible. In my opinion he’s established a pattern of lying that can be extended into the missing minutes by a skillful prosecutor to enable a jury to convict him of M2.
I don’t pretend that ANY of the circumstantial evidence and forensic mumbo jumbo is anything more than fodder for almost endless argument for either side at trial. But I know it can be proven BARD that GZ did not move from clubhouse are to cut thru area in the way he described to SPD, and therefor is without credibility, and guilty of lying to investigators at minimum. He pursued the teen with his car and on foot and lies about it. Whatever route you take to “prove” the rest is fine by me.
If I see one more book come out capitalizing off this child’s murder, I think I am going to scream. All of this should be handled in the courtroom. Why is this being allowed? I agree with Lonnie. This is creating a forum to misinform millions and taint the potential jury pool. This is just wrong. That’s why I ask, is this dude going to be an expert for the defense. If so, why is he discussing the case. I thought MOM said he would not have experts in time for trial.
He presents a lot of information about what crime scene re-en actors do. There is a certification process but there are only about 12 in the entire country that are certified. He doesn’t claim that he is certified.
Much of the book is a summary of the evidence taken directly from the various reports. Some of it directly quoted, some of it summarized or paraphrased.
It is defendant-friendly.
* He states that first names are used for children and last names for adults. but he has a problem with people who refer to Trayvon (friendly) and Z….. (cold and unfriendly)
* He states, “If the prosecutors cannot put on a witness who saw [the defendant] attack Trayvon, the jury will have to assume [the defendant's] testimony to be true.”
* While he includes discrepancies and inconsistencies in the defendant’s account, these are included as notes in the back of the book, not in line where they can be considered with the rest of his account.
* “We do know [the defendant's] nose was broken.” Really? How? He includes nothing that justifies “know”.
* His conclusion is that the only witness who saw anything useful is witness 6 who heard the head banging, that Trayvon was on top and in control, and he uses “ground and pound” as evidence even though that statement was retracted.
* He mentions the DNA findings on the clothing but no mention of the lack of the defendant’s DNA on Trayvon’s hands.
* He mentions that Trayvon has a couple of scars but he doesn’t bother to point out that there is no evidence of bruising or cuts on Trayvon’s hands, apart from the small cut on the inside of one finger.
* Even though he includes the defendant’s discussion with Doris Singleton while waiting for the vst analyst, including the question about whether or not she has ever shot anyone and her answer, he neglects to include the defendant’s comment about her authority would never be questioned.
* In speaking about the stress test analyst: “The investigator wasn’t listening; he was trying to remember where the Zimmerman he knew during his submariner days was from.” ( analyst was navy rz was army.) Huh? How does he know that the analyst wasn’t listening or what he was thinking? No evidence was presented to support that conclusion.
* He includes the vsa analyst’s description of the vsa but when he includes a press statement about a “lie detector” statement in the press, he doesn’t bother to point out that the vsa and a lie detector are two different things. Nor does he point out the fallibility of the vsa. He does include FBI quotes that the questions were too soft to determine anything.
* “There’s no indication that Z was under the influence of alcohol or any illicit drug.” This may be a true statement but we’ll never know.
* He mentions that the clubhouse is halfway between where the defendant first saw Trayvon and the location of the shooting. I think it’s more like 25-30% of the way.
* There is no mention of Serino interview where Z claims to have a wrist lock and admits control of Trayvon.
New “catches” me
* Vsa analyst: “Before that gun’s directly aimed at his chest?”
Defendant: “Correct. I was ON HIM. I knew I was – “
* In the walk-thru, the car circling happened on Twin Trees Lane; in the Serino/Singleton interview it happened at the clubhouse. The author didn’t point out this discrepancy in the defendant’s stories.
Some conclusions he made worth noting:
* He claims the altercation started at the T based on the defendant’s key and flashlight and the 7-11 bag.
* He claims there was an additional yell for help after the shot.
Excerpt:
We know that [the defendant] went to his doctor’s office the following day and was diagnosed with ”scalp lacerations”, a broken nose, and black eyes.
Z was seen by Lindzee Folgate, a physician’s assistant at [location] Folgate noted that Z complained of “nasal pain” and was “involved in an altercation” during which “ he was assaulted, punched in the face, and shoved to the ground where his head was hit into the pavement multiple times.” “During the altercation,” Folgate noted, “he had a weapon as he is authorized to carry a firearm and he fired at the attacker, killing him….He denies [headaches], change in [visual acuity], slurred speech, dizziness, or gait abnormality.” Folgate also noted that Z admitted to “occasional nausea when thinking about the violence last night”. “No sutures needed given well approximated skin margins,” “Continue to clean with soap and water daily. We discussed the red flag symptoms that would warrant imaging given the type of assault he sustained. Given the type of trauma, we discussed that it is imperative he be seen with his Psychologist [sic] for evaluation.” “We discussed that [his nose] is likely broken, but does not appear to have septal deviation. The swelling and black eyes are typical of this injury. I recommended that he be evaluated by ent but he refused.”
End excerpt
Author’s conclusion of broken nose and elsewhere of “know” broken nose isn’t supported by “likely broken” but w/o septal deviation and no followup treatment.
Question: Can the written report get admitted as evidence? If so, it lays out the hearsay of how the defendant got his injuries. This info would be objected to as hearsay if presented by the NP during her testimony.
The guy fails to take into account other facts in the case
a) All he has somewhat proved is that the shirt and the hoodie were 3 or more inches in front of the body when shot
b) The target he had in front of the actual target, the extra layer of clothing, had to be held firmly in place, otherwise the clothing which made contact with the muzzle during the shot, would have expelled the clothing backward into the body, and then caused other forensic traces to have taken place
c) The hoodie and undershirt had to be pulled down, and to the left, to line up the bulletholes with the wound in the chest, and to match the front to back trajectory
d) It does not conclusively prove that the shot was fired while the defendant was on his back and the victim was hovering over the defendant. All he proved was that the hoodie and undershirt had to be held firmly in front of the target to match the readings of the forensics.
Yous said: “searching mind – whatever, pal. It seems you and he both agree that Fogen was on the bottom.”
NO, SIR! I SAID NO SUCH THING.
What is essentially said is that the demo proves the OPPOSITE of what the “expert” concluded, i.e. GZ could not have been on the bottom.GZ must have been on top OR standing face to face with GZ.
a) There was also a piece of cardboard upon the shirt, and the gunshot went through the front and back of one shirt to get into the other, while he firmly held the cardboard piece with the shirt in front of it. The combination drastically changes the outcome
b) They noted the stippling was 2 x 2 inches, not over 2 x 2 inches
I think the major point he failed to realize is the news reporter stated “placed” and it was shown, he held the contact shot piece in front of the other
c) If the victim was leaning forward, there is another gravitational pull in effect because after being shot, the person would fall forward
thats bull crap trayvon was not leaning over him zimmerman was holding onto his shirt his shirt the bullet path through trayvon’s body show he was standing when he was shot.
@MMP, you couldn’t possible loathe him any more than I do. I think we need to form a line when it comes to the number of people who loathe this LYING, MURDERING POS. the same goes for his family as well, as far as I’m concerned. this FAT @$$ lump of NOTHING did not have to shoot this kid. he did so because he wanted to and I’m not going to believe otherwise. he had a gun and he wanted a chance to use it so, this is why he shot and killed an innocent child who was not bothering him or anybody else.
I will always believe that his BFF Osterman as well as the grand dragon Taaffe was right there when he committed his murder. what other reason are they sticking to him like stink on shit? as for some of the witnesses in that complex, there is a select few who knew exactly what was going to go down that night and, they are lying and not telling everything they know about what Fogen did to Trayvon. witness 11 knew who was screaming and why because, she was outside up until a certain point during her 911 call and it’s very telling.
The clarity in the screams on the 911 call led me to believe she was at least very near an open window. When I found out her rear area was blocked off from a view of the back yard, I just couldn’t picture them being “blind” to the activities going on. (I would have been upstairs in just a couple of heartbeats) and getting a better view.
They have a balcony, I believe. I tend to think “Jeremy” was low-crawling out onto that balcony. Her saying “get in here” and “get up here” could both make sense.
I watched the teen tournament. It was an exciting end!
Leonard was great. He’s going far in life !
They showed his Mom in the audience with tears running down her cheek. I know she is so proud of her son.
News: Zimmerman Jr appearing on the Bill Maher show on HBO, Friday at 10:00pm. Maher has been very vocal regarding this case and I expect him to literally own junior.
Make sure to get your popcorn ready in time…it is going to be an interesting show. I want Maher to own him so bad that Jr breaks down in tears. Somebody has to make that idiot realize that the only time he is ever seeing his brother again is through a glass window in a room full of felons. I wonder if they search his asshole for drugs when he goes to visit poor Fogen. LMFAO
OK, wait a minute. IMMUNITY for their client at that hearing? That hearing is about their client as the DEFENDANT! Who gives a DEFENDANT immunity at a hearing on his own criminal case?
Why not just give him immunity altogether and then ask him politely if he will tell us what happened that night, how’s that?
Or do I have to go purchase a handgun so I can say, “Now I’ve seen everything!” and make it a cartoon image?
We will not have the livestream of this hearing. Bob Kealing will live tweet it below and will have a full report on WESH when it’s over.
by Kevin Clay/WESH.com Staff 1:04 PM
bob kealing @bobkealing
#GeorgeZimmerman defense next Friday 2/22 will argue to depose #TrayvonMartin family attorney #Crump.
1:12 PM
bob kealing @bobkealing
#GeorgeZimmerman defense indicates they may seek to roll immunity hearing in to trial. For now judge sets aside two weeks 4-22 and 4-29.
1:09 PM
bob kealing @bobkealing
#GeorgeZimmerman defense asks for immunity hearing weeks of April 22 and 29 but will discuss rolling the issue in to the trial next week.
“A jury pool of 500. Anyone know if that is excessive?”
They have to find, in the area around where Trayvon’s death took place, people who haven’t been paying any attention to the news coverage of the case and haven’t formed any sort of opinion about it. Enough of them to seat a jury of 6, plus however many alternates they think they’ll need.
I’m thinking not so much excessive as excessively optimistic.
Sounds excessive. But then again, MOM will seek to exclude all blacks, sympathetic Hispanics, and anybody with any contact at all with teens! Yeah,500 will probably be a starter set!
Lets face reality here people. The way this is going for FogenPhoole, I’ll bet there are 4 black moms with good jobs and 17 year old sons at home……on the jury. One children’s rights activist and one nurse.
This whole “rolling into trial” thing is interesting.
1. There’s the shift of burden of proof issue.
2. There’s the “preponderance” vs. the “beyond a reasonable doubt” issue. Which one holds?
3. There’s the who goes first issue.
4. Who decides issue – the judge or the jury.Can the judge override the jury. Is fogen going for a bench trial, now?
5. Would this really have any effect other than to render him immune from civil litigation, in the event of a “not guilty, by reason of self-defense”?
6. What’s the point of “rolling it in” when immunity grants immunity from prosecution, but a trial, by definition is a prosecution?
Is O’Mara just having one of those “My client wants to testify for you, judge, but not be cross examined by the state” fantasies?Questions, Questions, I have many questions. The main one is, has O’Mara lost his mind, or is he sly like a fox.
“6. What’s the point of “rolling it in” when immunity grants immunity from prosecution, but a trial, by definition is a prosecution? ”
He’s admitting defeat with that. He’s saying “WTF, we can’t win so keep going as I’m not getting paid anyway.”
When he looses a SYG hearing any lawyer would want time to prepare for trial. He’s basically saying “If we lose an Immunity Hearing, we have nothing anyway so what the point”
It’s a use of words to try to help them avoid looking defeated. There is no such thing as a “self-defense hearing” unless it’s a SYG. O’Mara said it’s not SYG and of course it’s not SYG. Saying he wanted a separate hearing doesn’t mean he was going to either get one or be able to make a decent presentation at one. So he has to concede that he goes to trial. At trial of course a defendant’s allowed to claim “traditional self-defense.” He’s saying he will do that — OK, big deal. “Rolling” something that doesn’t exist “into the trial” simply means he can’t make a proper showing and he won’t be able to set, prepare or use a hearing, so he’s got to choose between plea or trial. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!
I think Judge Nelson will simply say…..file a SYG Motion or off to trial we go. We DON”T make up new court procedures to placate your client…..De – nied………….for the 3rd time.
His testimony does not mean crap, if it is not under oath and cross examination, therefore, it is scrutinized for credibility
If Fogenhats refuses cross examination and under oath, then his testimony is struck as meaningless and forgotten
How can Omara even have a preponderance, when he has not turned in anything of substance or submitted anything for admissibility into the SYG trial and the big trial?
Omara at the SYG, if he goes forward with it, has nothing to present except maybe 2 photographs, which do not mean much, once you look at the whole picture
Omara can not present Fogenhats’ statements for him, because, that would constitute hearsay, and none of his statements fall under any exceptions
The state can selectively submit Fogenhats’ statements whereby Omara would be unable to finish the totality
The state can also prove its case without any statements by Fogenhats at all, except the NEN, but that is present sense impression and excited utterances
As for Fogenhats’ assertions of what constitutes suspicion, then many doors are opened that cant be closed once opened, if Omara wants to go there
If Fogenhats takes the stand, all that it will add to the case, is that he is a proven bold faced liar, on top of being the killer
I would rather have a bench trial than a jury trial. It is completely evident from hundreds of cases that the jury does not always get it right. They want people on the jury who have not heard about the case. The problem is, those people they want are the same idiots who don’t pay any attention to the world around them and live in a box. Those are the most dangerous people to put on a jury. Look at what happened with the Casey Anthony trial. Casey told every lie in the book regarding her daughter’s death, yet the jury was so braindead they thought the child died in an accident. Accidents don’t require you to put duct tape over your child’s mouth, put them in a trash bag, throw them into a swamp like trash, and finally accuse a perfectly innocent person of killing your child. I’m never going to get over that verdict, no matter what anyone says. Those jurors are going to live with that horrific decision for the rest of their lives. If someone doesn’t have the balls to convict someone of murder, they should not serve on a jury.
If it looks like murder, smells like murder, it probably is murder.
Yes but that gets balanced out by the fact that judges are captives of the system themselves, they depend on prosecutors and police to bring them cases, as we see each time when police are accused of crimes, the judges come under enormous pressures. If you’re not politically connected and your case is even close to a toss up, you can hardly expect many judges to go your way.
Before you opt for a bench trial, you had better do your homework and find out just how well noted your judge is for his independence.
O’Mara has clearly lost his mind. How could any practicing attorney believe there’s a way to have a defendant take the witness stand and not be subjected to cross examination? SYG and a trial are provided for as two separate hearings, not to be combined in a trial. MOM will have to choose between them or, if he runs out the clock and the trial is to begin, the judge will simply deny the SYG hearing. The law does not say a defendant is entitled to both.
Why do the police reports say that TM was wearing “blue jeans”???
maybe mom wants to see the prosecution’s hand without showing his…as far as the syg hearing. I think he setting forgen up to say he, mom, was an incompetent attorney.
Weeks of 4/22 & 4/29 set aside for immunity hearing, but will discuss next week,2/22 whether to “roll immunity hearing into trial”. Also, 2/22 argument to depose Crump. Attys believe/agree on 500 ppl jury pool needed.
Have any of y’all seen the video MANYBUDDIES post on Youtube. About the Jacksonville expert saying GZ timeline is off but its evidence that TM was standing over GZ when he was shot.
been discussed here, concensus is that this expert does not consider complete evidence, there’s another explanation for the two bullet hole in clothing observations and it’s NOT Trayvon on top for other reasons.
His experiment loses credibility because his shooter is firing the gun while standing, and into two garments hanging one in front of the other. While the real experiment calls for the shooter to be on his back on the ground, with his elbow fast to the ground.
For his gravity fall on the shirts, the bullet holes will have to line up, when the shirts are put on a mannequin of appropriate dimensions and positioned leaning forward, over a shooter laying flat on his back. If the holes do not line up, or if a straight in shot can’t be obtained in this position, GZ is toast!
Thanks, Lonnie, but that’s the one you just posted. The one I’m looking for was posted a week back, where “the mount position” had the guy on top kneeling on the arms of the guy on the bottom.
In this one, the guy on the bottom has his arms up by his head, with which the guy on top has to contend.
In the previous one, the guy on the bottom has his arms immobilized – so it’s easy for the guy on top to withdraw a gun from his right rear hip.
Thanks for helping, though. I appreciate the quick response.
a) He fails to take note of the ballistics and forensics of the gunshot
b) He fails to take note of witnesses
Him saying his timeline is off, really does not take an expert to tell he is lying
Omara is not gonna be able to reasonably and truthfully match the forensics and ballistics and witnesses to his client’s story or stories
a) The gunshot muzzle made contact with the hoodie and undershirt only. If the hoodie or undershirt was not held in place, the shirt would have expelled into the body from momentum, and then the shoot and hot burning would have added more gunshot debris to other parts of the body, from the shirt going back into the chest area.
b) The gunshot wound was shown to be of intermediate range and at about an arm’s length away.
For the above two readings, the shirt had to have been held firmly in front of the victim, at about a foot away from the victim’s body. The gunshot muzzle only made contact with the hoodie and undershirt only. That way it is a contact shot with the hoodie and undershirt, but is a intermediate range gunshot away from the chest for the wound. They likely did science tests to prove this.
c) The bulletholes in the hoodie and undershirt do not line up with the gunshot wound. The trajectory is str8 front to back. To line up the bullet holes in the hoodie and undershirt to the gunshot wound, the hoodie and undershirt have to be pulled down, and to the left to line up.
Add this all up and the defendant pulled the victim towards himself and held him in place to shoot the victim. The hoodie and undershirt, do not have any weight, to cause as much pulling as it happened on the night of the murder. The can did not even weigh the shirt down, nor does it provide adequate gravitational pull for the pulling that occurred. Besides, the can had already fallen out of the pocket and was not in the pocket, and the can of ice tea was found to the east of the victim in a bag.
Omara will not be able to explain this away to match the defendant’s story, because the defendant’s story is a complete lie
@aussie. Just read your comment and one before and something occurred to me. Maybe Judge Nelson is not granting continuances because of books and Junior’s media’s rants potentially tainting the jury pool. There are also attempts to intimidate and harm witnesses. O’Mara already made in known in court that internet bloggers doxed the wrong DeeDee.
“b) The gunshot wound was shown to be of intermediate range and at about an arm’s length away. ”
Is that supposed to mean that the gun was about an arm’s length away from Martin’s chest when it was fired?
If so, then both of Zimmerman’s arms being about the same length as each other means that if he has a grip on the hoodie and the shirt underneath with one hand, that arm would have to be fully extended and the one holding the gun would have to be back holding the gun against his own chest with his wrist bent at almost a 90 degree angle, which seems a most peculiar way to fire a gun.
“Besides, the can had already fallen out of the pocket and was not in the pocket, and the can of ice tea was found to the east of the victim in a bag.”
I’m curious as to your source for that assertion.
If that was said in any of the official reports I must have somehow missed seeing it.
Someone must have removed the can from the bag and put it back in one of Trayvon’s pockets, because the can was there to get in the way of the cops and paramedics trying to do CPR and whatnot.
They specifically mention feeling it when they lifted his shirt to get to the wound to try to seal it.
It is hard to believe the media trolls. Most of them think the prosecution has a weak case. They are all braindead and do not follow the actual evidence in the case.
That’s not quite true. I’ve been watching the news for over half a century now, starting from back when we had Reporters like Walter Cronkite and Eric Severid. Back then people had more face to face social contact than we have today. The media had to think of what their listeners were going to sound like, sprouting news reports that were too badly skewed.
Back then, if a report got a big story wrong, you weren’t likely to see them on tv ever again. Reporters lived on their credibility, thus they mostly worked their reports themselves, or at least took a hand in the writing. It was their careers that were on the line. Not so today. Today the reports are written in the back rooms. The people you see on the air are simply “talking heads”, reading scripts! They, themselves, probably don’t pay any attention to the news, because they realize quickly that, knowing that what you are being asked to say is wrong, kinda makes it difficult to keep your job. So, in on air broadcasting, ignorance is bliss. You can easily say whatever is required, to please corporate, because you don’t know or care about any of it.
Believe me, they know what they’re doing. They know when they’re presenting a slanted story, because they have to decide what facts to leave out. If they didn’t know and understand the truth, they wouldn’t know how to fashion a credible lie. One that makes them look, at worse negligent or uninformed, as opposed to fashioning a story that makes them appear to be overt liars. So, they have to know what they’re doing and they have to be very careful, how they go about doing it.
All those official crime scene photos and drawings and diagrams were made after the attempts at first aid on Trayvon had occurred.
The people who first worked on him reported the can in his pocket and in their way.
Unfortunately they weren’t specific about whether the can was still in the bag or not, and apparently it hasn’t occurred to the state to go back and ask them and as far as I know they never checked either for Zimmerman’s fingerprints.
Analysis of where the bullet traveled can specify how close the muzzle was to the fabric and how close the fabric was to the entrance wound, but by itself it’s not going to prove to what extent Zimmerman’s gun arm was or was not extended.
Well the hoodie and undershirt had to have been held firmly in place when the shot was fired otherwise there would be different readings and different forensics
If the clothing was loosely hanging, the momentum of the gunshot would have caused the fabric to also go into the body because of the gunshot, unless it was firmly held in place
onlyiamunitron says:The people who first worked on him reported the can in his pocket and in their way.
Unfortunately they weren’t specific about whether the can was still in the bag or not, and apparently it hasn’t occurred to the state to go back and ask them and as far as I know they never checked either for Zimmerman’s fingerprints.
I am fairly sure that George placed the can into Trayvon’s hoodie after he shot him because as I explained on another site:
1) If Trayvon had decided to ditch the bag and place his snacks in his hoodie pocket then he would have placed both the bag of Skittles and the can of soda, but the bag of Skittles was on the ground and the bag was near Trayvon which rules out that theory.
2) If Trayvon had used his soda can as the ‘brick’ that Zimmerman claimed hit him he would have dropped the bag around the tea where he supposedly ambushed George. That didn’t happen because the bag was near Trayvon’s body along with the Skittles plus how was Trayvon able to put the can of soda into his hoodie after he punched George, slammed George’s head into the concrete sidewalk , smothered George in under a minute and had enough time to place the can of soda into his hoodie before George shot him
3) Trayvon placed the can of soda into his hoodie pocket after he was shot.
“Analysis of where the bullet traveled can specify how close the muzzle was to the fabric and how close the fabric was to the entrance wound, but by itself it’s not going to prove to what extent Zimmerman’s gun arm was or was not extended.”
I could have sworn that George stated that his arm was fully extended when he shot Trayvon.
Unitron, just go back to Talkleft with the rest of the trolls.
roderick~ GZ not only stated his arm was extended, he SHOWED it in several videotaped interviews. It’s about the only thing he has stayed consistent about; NOT shooting his left hand!
Was the can ever in his pocket before the shooting? At the 7-11, he put the Skittles in his pocket and carried the can in his bag – probably to keep it somewhat cool (putting it in his pocket and close to his body would cause it to warm up faster).
ANNOUNCEMENT
Circuit Judge Debra Nelson today rejected George Zimmerman’s request to delay the start of his “stand your ground” hearing, saying that it will start April 22.
She also ordered 500 potential jurors, more than the Seminole County Courthouse can hold, for Zimmerman’s second-degree murder trial.
There’s no report yet on the Motion to depose Attorney Crump.
It would appear as though there will be a hearing starting on Ap 22. As I think this through, if the self defense issue is essentially taken off the table before the trial–as it certainly will be–is this a case of it will be all over but the shouting?
I mean, there has never been any doubt at all that Zimmerman shot Travyon and this was the cause of his death–and he has said as much many times over. Would the trial then consist mostly of wrangling over a jury determination of second degree vs manslaught?
@lurker. I’m not sure how it works to roll-in an immunity hearing with the trial. For one, an immunity hearing is decided by the judge and not the jury.
I have seen cases where after the State puts on its case in chief, the defense will motion for dismissal due to lack of evidence. The jury is then removed from the courtroom while the judge hears the defense argue against the charges based on prior case decisions. Then the State presents its argument based on those case decisions. In those cases that I know about where this happened, none of them were dismissed. Several had more than one charge, and the judge dismissed maybe a charge, but not the entire case.
If per chance this is what O’Mara is thinking or hoping will happen, he is, IMO, throwing GZ under the bus because of Florida self-defense case decisions that are not to GZ’s benefit, with the Dooley case being a most recent one.
Zena, in today’s jury instructions, the judge in the Davis trial mentioned ‘Stand Your Ground’ as part of the instructions. Sounded like this jury could consider an SYG as part of the self defense evidence.
The defense saying it wants the jury to decide everything rather than a separate self-defense and/or syg hearing?
@ay2z. I have to get familiar with the Davis case. The Arias case has had my attention now for several weeks. Do you know whether Davis was denied immunity?
Xena–It sounded like the outcome of today’s hearing was that there would be a separate SYG event beginning in April. And then preparations going forward for the jury trial in June.
If you fail at a SYG hearing you can present your self-defense claim to the jury in due course.
I predict a motion to postpone because of Fogen’s mental health — after maybe a week or two. A couple of psychiatrists will testify about how stressy it is to be hated and called a racist when all you wanted to do was implement God’s plan. Yeah, bring’em on.
wait…why are we talking about this “roll-in” nonsense as if it is to be taken seriously? we might as well discuss whether the judge will let the killer testify without cross examination.
Tzar says: wait…why are we talking about this “roll-in” nonsense as if it is to be taken seriously? we might as well discuss whether the judge will let the killer testify without cross examination.
I don’t understand that BS either. Why is Judge Nelson allowing O’Mara to drive this train.
Why is she allowing only two weeks for the immunity hearing because hearing from O’Mara he will need more than a week to present the defense’s case so whatever the balance is the prosecution will have to squeeze in whatever testimony they can using the balance.
And why are they allowing for 500 potential jurors? Because all O’Mara needs is one devout George supporter to get a hung jury.
That’s a ridiculous number and it will take weeks and weeks before a jury is seated and that’s exactly what O’Mara wants.
I can imagine O’Mara and West will be filing motions until the beginning of the jury trial.
Regarding the “roll in” . Could O’Mara be setting the stage for a “directed verdict”? Per wiki: “In a criminal case in the United States, once the prosecution has closed its case, the defendant may move for a directed verdict. If granted, the verdict will be “not guilty”. ”
Can he be attemtpting to force the prosecution to enter the statements, during the case-in chief, to present their strongest case, by warning them (implicitly) that they may not be able to use them in a cross examination or rebuttal of the defense’s case – since the defense may not have to present a case?
Are they trying to force the prosecution to put fogen’s self-defense claim, before the jury, so fogen doesn’t have to testify? Is this question of a “roll in” a manipulative tactic, by the defense?
I don’t think the judge would grant a directed verdict, but if I understand it correctly, it would depend on the stregnth of their case-in-chief, which is significantly stronger WITH the statements. Hmmmm? More questions…..
I dont believe so. They can present him as the killer, the guy that did it, with none of the statements by the defendant. They will use the NEN call, and that is about all they need.
IMO, the state has to prove murder. If it is proven murder, it is obviously not self defense. From what Freddy stated, there is no self defense instruction if there is no evidence of self defense at all, which in fact, there is none.
Thanks Jun –
Since there’s no doubt fogen pulled the trigger, guess requesting a directed verdict doesn’t help the defense. Right, to claim self-defense the defense must present the claim to the jury. I lost that point for a moment in marinating on the ramifications and WHY O’Mara would seriously propose such a thing. Maybe the professor will address it, when he gets a minute.
Whether or not Fogenhats testifies, he is still the proven murderer, the guy that did it
Omara can claim it was self defense
but if it is shown that it was a cold blooded murder, it is obviously not self defense
People are gonna see that the defendant should have just had self control and not be a big fat fucking liar, and just left the kid alone, because he did not do anything at all, and he did not even attack the defendant, at all, even in self defense
In fact, Omara cant even submit any of Fogenhats’ claims, without him taking the stand under cross and oath
The expert might go back and re-work his start point from ‘he’s here now, just staring at me’ and start his clock from there, but still, even if we accept that the killer was parked at the clubhouse at that, but he should be certain of that assumption as well.
But now that his book is written in stone, so to speak, he can’t change his position, especially with the news videos out there.
One more assumption that hasn’t shown up as documented fact, is precisely where the shooter got out of his car and where he car was found after the shooting (nevermind who took control of the vehicle and when).
I might be cynical BUT I do believe that Knox is just angling to get an “expert” gig on this case. After all, win or lose, HE GETS PAID. So why would he care if GZ is a total liar? He still gets paid!
@LLMPapa. It’s most worthy of the time. Mr. Expert has apparently watched your, Trent’s and Dave’s videos. What he hasn’t done, evidently, is read material that suggests that GZ cut Trayvon off where he could not reach Green’s townhome. Mr. Expert also omitted all reference to where Trayvon’s body was found — about 40 ft. south of where GZ said the altercation took place.
yes! He should reference a past LLMPapa video that shows the shooter noticing his problem, and tries to shuffle on over to cover his mistake, again changing his story of how he allegedly was struck down to the ground.
isn’t it amazing that the killer basically is claiming that the victim punched him down the path away from his shruck. That Trayvon is one magically powerful Negro.
than later takes his word of him just walking across the T
and then adds some fantasy mystery of what the victim Trayvon was doing and could have made it home
without even taking into account that he earlier stated that Fogenhats is not credible, and could have made it back to his truck, and question what the hell Fogenhats was doing himself
The only believable statement this “expert” made is that Fogenhats should have made and could have made it back to his truck, if that was Fogenhats’ intent
I do not know how this idiot can claim to be an expert and he does not look at all the details
Sometimes “Economy of words” or “less is more” works best. Let me give this a try.
My version of a book written about this using facts alone.
Chapter 1) FogenPhoole profiles victim
Chapter 2) FogenPhoole follows victim
Chapter 3) FogenPhoole detains victim
Chapter 4) FogenPhoole shoots victim for no reason
Chapter 5) FogenPhoole admits to shooting victim
Chapter 6) It is proven Victim was simply walking home
Chapter 7) FogenPhoole is charged with 2nd Degree Murder
Chapter 8) FogenPhoole tells preposterous story and lies
Chapter 9) FogenPhoole is not credible
We ourselves have totally discredited the Taaffe-Clubhouse section as pure fabrication.
But if the expert is relying on GZ’s timelines, then it is only fair for him to stick to them consistently.
In my personal opinion, the closest Trayvon ever got to the T was around the little tree that wounded GZ and where the key/flashlight combo was found, and even that by approaching from the south being chased. I don’t believe he was ever north of that point at any stage.
In the walk-thru, the defendant claims that Trayvon circled his car on Twin Trees but in his interview by Serino and Singleton, he says the circling happened at the club house! Poor fogen. He didn’t know where he was.
in his interview by Serino and Singleton, he says the circling happened at the club house!
From his 2/26 interview with Detective Doris Singleton:
DS: Is he walking completely around the car?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: Okay.
GZ: Um, and dispatch asked me where he went. I didn’t know the name of the street that I was on. I…
DS: So you’d come off your street and gotten onto another street?
GZ: Yes ma’am.
DS: At some point.
GZ: Yes ma’am. It goes in, cuts through the middle of my neighborhood. I didn’t know the names of the street. Um, or where he went, so I got out of my car to look for the street sign and to see if I could see where he cut through so I could tell the police.
DS: So after he circled your car he disappeared again?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
Sounds like he told her the circling happened after he’d come off HIS street (RVC) and gotten onto ANOTHER street (TTL)
Personally? I don’t think there was ever a moment when Mr Zimmerman didn’t know EXACTLY where he was.
I’d say that since FogenPhoole is so detail oriented on his NEN call “….he’s got a button on his shirt…” “…he’s up to no good…” etc. and there is no mention of a vehicle circling in real time, there was no such circling. He decided to make Black Dynamite Slim far more menacing.
It seems as though the “now he’s looking at me” and the bit about “he has his hand in his pants, he’s a black male” in the NEN call tape matched up with the time that Z. claimed to still be parked in front of the club house. And that is the only reference in the call that might conceivably match with a story of circling the truck.
One suspicion I have had from the beginning is that Z. completely invented the part about parking in order to make the call because he was afraid of being accused of unsafe driving while on the phone. It’s pretty hard to imagine any exact locations of anything–except that whatever Z. says has no basis in fact.
Make of it what you will but the NeN call starts at 7:09 which is nearly 45 minutes after Trayvon left 711 on a 16 minute walk home. Shave about 3 minutes off of that, because the NeN call begins at the Mail Shed which is about 3 minutes from Brandy Green’s house. So, with 45 minutes on a 13 minute walk, just how likely is it that GZ is anywhere near RVC when Trayvon comes by the area? GZ certainly didn’t spend 32 minutes patrolling around the area without getting any of his light events picked up by the cctv’s.
I shouldn’t have done this at 3 am The interview I’m talking about is the one Singleton and Serino did with him reviewing the NEN call on 2/29. The defendant said that Trayvon approached his car and had his hand in his waistband while he was at the clubhouse. Singleton pressed him for when he moved from the clubhouse to TTL. In this interview, there is no car walk-around at all, just an approach at the club house.
I guess what confused me is if the walk-around happened, it would have been, time-wise, where he’s talking about Trayvon approaching the car.
3 Streets, can’t remember 1, confused on where any alleged vehicle circling took place, never mentions it in real time something like “…..now he’s circling my schruck…….what is his deal, get that officer here now”
Poor Fogen didn’t know where he was is a crock of shit on his part. this POS is a born liar and, he wouldn’t know the truth if it slapped him in his FAT FACE. he is such a poor excuse for a human being. Fogen follows this kid in his car and then on foot and, when he catches up to him he is the one who started the confrontation by trying to detain Trayvon. there is a witness to this very aspect of the confrontation which Fogen started.
As I have said before I’m saying it again. I believe there is someone who saw this go down in it’s entirety but, we just don’t know who this person is just yet. there is a lot of stuff that the state has, that hasn’t been made public yet and, the person who saw it all is in with the unknown evidence. the night has a thousand eyes and I believe it. 35-life for LARD ASS!
On the phone call, he says they are at the clubhouse, then Trayvon is walking, looking at houses, then he notices him and runs… which turns out to start from around the clubhouse
It sounds to me, Fogenhats was tailing Trayvon in his car, creeping behind him, stalking him, a
Documents just released by GZLegal
http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/0213/discovery_demand_3_videos.pdf
The defense also seeks any voice recordings of Trayvon from witness 8 http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/0213/motion_std_witness_8.pdf
This one sounds like O’Mara is going to attempt voice recognition on the screams on the 911 tapes. Gotta wonder about this one. Seems like the state is going with the FBI analysis which says nothing conclusive. It would seem that any further analysis using Trayvon’s voice is either going to come up similarly inconclusive, or a match with Trayvon. Seems like a can of worms better left alone, IMHO.
He knows darn well who that is screaming. he might as well give it a rest. His own client knows he wasn’t the one screaming. he may not want to go there.
He won’t go there, it’s all about ………..
2 Mr. Zimmerman has involved himself in the discovery process…..
I think O’ Mara is telling the Judge he has no control over his client.
I believe O’ Mara may be planning his exit strategy as per the Professors blog last week.
I believe this is a way of telling the Judge “…..hey, this wasn’t my idea…….it’s FogenPhoole calling the shots”
I believe Fogen is unhappy with present counsel and is trying to tell the Zidiot Nation I’m in control and we’ll get it done my way.
I don’t think it’s about “what” it’s about “who” as we all know Fogen wants Positive Press. He has to save face coming out of that court room whopping he took last week. I’d say someone pointed out to him how dejected he looked.
I wondering what teen saves voice messages from 3 yrs ago and for that matter did she even own the same phone 3 yrs ago?
racerrodig, I noticed this special phrase in the motion concerning the credit card details the first time, if I remember correctly. Would be interesting to take a closer look. Maybe since watching these videos is time consuming, ask Whonoze and Amsterdam, Fogen offered to do this, just as he is the one that wants to know more about the “three stooges”. But I am not sure, if I simply did not pay much attention in earlier motions. Take a look at all recent motions and watch if the phrase only surfaces in a few or if it is a standard.
Now I have to leave for good for a while. I am relapsing.
Does this actually require a court order? Seems like they are saying that what they got was blank. Wouldn’t a phone call suffice? Is there some reason to go through an additional court request?
A court request provides the paper trail that what they rec’d was blank. It bolsters MOM’s complaint that they aren’t getting discovery materials in a timely manner.
I worked on system software project with high visibility and a very serious much watched deadline. The product was ready for shipment and the final tape was made for shipment. Just to be sure all i’s dotted and t’s crossed, the developer overseeing the production of the final tape said, “install it”. It wouldn’t install. A new tape was made and verified. I’m not sure what went wrong with that first tape but that those 2 words saved us all a lot of embarrassment.
I’d wait till it gets to trial and there is a response from the state because at the last few hearings, it turned out the defense were playing games
Bettykath–I get the paper trail, but it also seems like it is slowing the process down considerably. There is the time that went into the paperwork, and then the delay in waiting for the next court hearing date. Just thinking–if I were the judge, I would be annoyed. Unless there is some legal reason that O’Mara can’t go back to the source and say that the CDs were blank.
The prosecution also gets a copy of the paperwork. Since the prosecution has kept everything formal they shouldn’t complain. They provide new copies and have them delivered asap. At the hearing MOM makes his point about the difficulty in getting discovery materials in a timely manner but the motion is moot b/c the materials were fiiiinnnnally delivered.
As William pointed out, sometimes you do things to see if people actually read what you circulate. What the prosecution found out is that the defense has tried to look at the files. I’m not sure how valuable that information is though.
@lurker:
What does MOM need a court order for? He knows good and well that those screams are not Fogen! Even my 5 year old grand-nephew can hear those screams. He heard my niece playing the tape, and he asked her,’ Mommy was is that boy screaming? What is going on?’ I had to explain to him what was going on age appropriate but he was not having it! He knew it was a serious deal with that boy in the tape screaming!! Out of the mouths of babes!
They are the terrorized screams of a 17 year old black kid! Fogen would not be yelling for his mom, or stating, “I’m begging you! Mommmm! I don’t know!” Fogen even said it wasn’t him screaming because he knew it was not him! He said that to Serrino when Serrino tried to trick him during the interview remember?
I don’t think this is about what at all. It’s about “who”
Read the Motion again. For the 1st time we see
“2 Mr. Zimmerman has involved himself with discovery….”
I think O’ Mara is telling the court that FogenPhoole is calling the shots and Fogen wants his minions to know he’s not happy with present counsel. Didn’t then Professor have a blog about O’ Mara bailing last week ??
Deborah–I agree. I don’t see how that particular path is going to take him anywhere helpful. Like I said, and expert could either confirm it was Trayvon’s voice (not helpful for Z) or come out with another inconclusive finding–which doesn’t help him either. But–when did Z. say that it wasn’t him screaming? I thought he had pretty consistently claimed that he was calling for help but nobody would help.
Deborah Garner-Moore…..Fogen didn’t JUST pull out his weapon (careful not to shoot his left hand), aim, and fire…..He HAD to have had his gun allready drawn and aiming it at Trayvon for Trayvon to have said “I’m begging you”….Trayvon was begging for his life as fogen interrogated him with his gun pointed at Trayvon. This is why I think that fogen had his gun out long before he said that he drew it.
@lurker:
It just breaks my heart to know that and to hear that boy begging for his life……Tray seeing that gun and Tray knowing that his life was about to end and Tray was trying to appeal to this man’s sense of morality not knowing that this man had no morality, values or scuples, and was a mad, unstable lunatic………I was in the Army and I know about having your gun in your hand already and you better be ready to use it, which you did, because you never knew when you would be ambushed. You had to have eyes in the back of your head, on the sides in addition to the ones you already have in the front of your face.
What the hell is wrong with Fogen other than the obvious? Why would he have his gun out and pointed towards a teenage kid??? What was he trying to accomplish?? The Professor I believe, wrote in a thread that Fogen was crying at his hearing and that woman who babysits him was trying to hide him?? LOL! I have not re-watched it but if he was crying…….GOOD! His A$$ will be crying for a very long time! The magnitude and the enormity of what he did finally has come to him, and yet, he is still lying, plotting and deceiving!!!
racerrodig said
“Read the Motion again. For the 1st time we see
“2 Mr. Zimmerman has involved himself with discovery….”
I think O’ Mara is telling the court that FogenPhoole is calling the shots…”
He’s just making a the point that the defense (using the name of the client as normal) has involved himself with the discovery process– isn’t that an agreement signed by the defendant to agree to mutual discovery between the pros and the defense?
I’ve never seen the client / defendant mentioned like this before.
@Deborah Garner-Moore-
It’s not just kids, either. My alpha male kitty has a strong protective instinct towards the kids in the family. He was cat-napping at the foot of my bed, last weekend, when I was listening to one of LLMPapa’s videos, on low volume, with the screams. He heard it, jumped up, flew across the bed, jumped up on the windowsill next to me, and started frantically pawing the windowpane to get outside.
The only other time I’ve seen him do that was a couple years ago, in the summer when my niece fell down inthe backyard and she was screaming her head off.
Even the animals instinctively understand those screams. I always trust the instincts of children and animals. They don’t have the need to rationalize things the way adults sometimes need to do.
I think that the prosecuting attorney explained during the last hearing that when he’d tried to provide information over the phone, etc., that information was taken out of context or distorted by the defense. I don’t blame him at all for deciding to pursue a more ‘formalistic’ approach, so that he has a paper trail to prove discovery, the date and the details.
Re: Racerrodig’s comment:
This is just preliminary, foundational language – like the paragraph about the killer being charged with 2nd degree murder. Part VI of the Florida Rules of Criminal Procedure covers the discovery process. A defendant is not required to participate in discovery, but may elect to do so.
Source: http://www.floridabar.org/tfb/tfblegalres.nsf/d64b801203bc919485256709006a561c/e1a89a0dc5248d1785256b2f006cccee
I just jumped the gun, but that is the 1st time I’ve ever seen that in all of the legal cases I’ve been involved in and it just looked strange.
Here’s why I think O’Mara points out that Fogen is involving himself in discovery: O’Mara is setting up his NEXT motion which will be for more time because poor Fogen has a mental illness and cannot cooperate with his defense. See, O’Mara cannot continue discovery and prepare for trial if Fogen is out of commission sitting at home with a big depression and PTSD, see? He will “fit the criteria for PTSD” because (a) he had an experience that was life-threatening [when attacked savagely by Trayvon Martin, see?]; and (b) he has nightmares; and (c) he has an unnatural startle response; and (d) he cannot concentrate; and (e) he keeps reliving over and over the event that caused his PTSD and he keeps thinking his head is gonna explode; and (f) he feels intense fear, helplessness and horror; (g) he has flashbacks, gets triggered, and has intense distress; (h) his personal and familial relationships have been negatively affected; (i) he has avoidant and “blocking” experiences where he can’t face the situation or anything that reminds him of it; (j) he has memory problems as a result of his emotional defense of avoidance; (k) he suffers feelings of a foreshortened future; (l) he has feelings of detachment from others and depersonalization; (m) he has a restricted range of affect; (n) he is hypervigilant; (o) he has irritability and outbursts of anger; (p) he has a pronounced and crippling sleep disorder; (q) he has an eating disorder; and like, well, (r) he’s sort of all effed up and can’t cooperate with O’Mara in providing himself with an adequate defense so he is in danger of losing his constitutional rights to be presumed innocent and blah blah blah blah blah did I leave anything out?
So a psychiatrist, a psychologist and a parambulist will all appear and convince Judge Nelson to put this off until Fogen’s children graduate college, and then we can resume — if the big bad black people still want to railroad Fogen at that point in time.
You read it here first.
i posted earlier this week that O’ Mara says FogenPhoole is involved in discovery so this shit ain’t my idea and O’ Mara is setting the stage for an exit visa.
You however have detailed it very well.
(s) Irritable bowel syndrome.
He’s got the shitz because he KNOWS he’s going down…….
I’ll bet he can’t keep anything down either.
It took them a month to learn that these things were blank?
Just like it took them months to realize that they couldn’t understand DeeDee and just mentioned it a few months ago.
The ‘blank’ dvds are another stalling tactic.
They probably are not blank. FogenPhoole broke the DVD player.
@Dave – That was my first thought, too!! LOL!
I also wonder whether they’re actually blank, or maybe they just weren’t “formatted to be readable” by any CD player/reader … I’ve made that mistake a few times, myself.
@lurker:
Why are they requesting tapes of Trayvon’s voice for anyway? He certainly wouldn’t be yelling, screaming and crying in any of them?? Then they are asking for the last three years?
Gentleman, and to the parents on this blog who have sons: I do and his voice it seemed changed overnight, but when my son was scared or in pain, his voice would sound like he was a little kid. Trayon sounded the way a young boy would sound, but in a state of fear and terror and the fact that he was screaming for his life, you certainly could tell, without a doubt, that, that was Trayvon Martin screaming calling for his mom, screaming, “I don’t know! I’m begging you…………MOM must be out of his mind to even think that, that was Fogen. He hears it as clearly as we do, and even W#18 said it was a boy screaming! Do you know if the tape has been enhanced to catch what Fogen was screaming in the background? I can’t even believe that Fogen is going to claim he called out for his Momma and was uttering all of that dialogue? To whom and why would he say anything like what we all hear when the nutcase had a gun???
@Lurker:
Fogen staid that, “It didn’t sound like him.” when Det. Serrino played the tape to him. Serrino was attempting to fool him, so Serrino says to him, “That’s you yelling?” Fogen, being as dumb as a rock, says,”It doesn’t sound like me.” My daughter yells out to me, “THAT”S BECAUSE IT ISN”T YOU, YOU DUMB A$$!” I had to laugh at her when she said that!
One of the YouTubers has a video of the 7-11 tape in which you hear TM answer his cell phone. You here Hello and something else. But, in another angle of the video, I don’t see that he’s on a phone. I’m not sure. As you say, you don’t hear him screaming for help in that video so I don’t see how that proves it is not him screaming later when confronted by a “creepy man” following him for miles and using a gun.
Weren’t these the videos that the defense provided to the prosecution as reciprocal discovery?
I was wondering the same thing.
Yes they are. Jan 18th.
http://tinyurl.com/b93c888
Soooo???…He got them on the Jan.9th…decided they were so important that he filed it as reciprocal discovery on the 18th…just to claim on Feb.9th that they are blank???
Am I missing something or am I completely wrong?
@Lynn
If you’re missing something, then I am too. Also, if they were filed on the 9th, why hasn’t the court’s website provided them? There is nothing on the clerk of the court’s docket sheet of the new filings, and the docs on the links provided are not file stamped.
The links seem to have generated on a Twitter account. Those docs are not on the gzlegal case website either.
http://www.gzlegalcase.com/index.php/court-documents
Xena, you are right, the State has never turned over video’s of those locations and the defense has never noted that they ever received them! Is this just another pathetic way of generating donations?! Holy crappolla!
I don’t have time to follow this carefully, but note, it turns out, just as I suggested over at the TalkLeft and on the site of the crazy treehousers, that Team Fogen may have deposited Benjamin Crump only a day or two before, and that is exactly what happened: notice on taking deposition, January 4.
Interesting both paraded some type of moral indignation that Crump hadn’t obeyed the 48 hours before hearing advance notice rule, since Blackwell presenting Crump’s affidavit only on the day of the hearing. I looked at the dates of advance notices of earlier depositions and noticed a trend towards short termed notices. Besides I asked Jeralyn the question if Crump was a party bound by the rules of Nelson at all, but did not get an answer.
They are playing an elaborate manipulative game. They are obviously aware what their supporters immediately associate.
Xena, here is a copy of the FDLE report. Those video’s were looked at and the FDLE didn’t find anything on them to preserve.
http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/1112/discovery9/fdle_reports_march.pdf
Xena says:
“The links seem to have generated on a Twitter account. Those docs are not on the gzlegal case website either.”
IMO, If they were generated from a twitter account, then I say Jr probably was the one who generated them. Every once in a while when I read his tweets (when I can stomach them), he does have court documents listed for his ‘followers’, so I would bet that this is part of a plan which as:
SpecialladyT says:
“Is this just another pathetic way of generating donations?!
Holy crappolla!”
Yes, I wouldn’t doubt that this is just another ploy by the defense to taint the prospective jury pool…and Jr rants about media ‘misinformation?’
Documents often appear on their web server before they are linked from the main gzlegalcase.com site.
You can find them if you go directly to the directory where earlier documents were located.
http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/0213/
(If they wanted they could easily deactivate those listings but apparently they don’t.)
I don’t understand what they gain from the video of the videos from Sam’s Club and Kohl’s.
Oh goodie and open thread. Anyone seen Blushedbrown lately?
…or also Malisha?
Yep still not a peep, I liked Blushbrown system of providing us with on topic records research, it was helping us speed the discovery and discussion process. What happened? Where have they gone?
I believe they’ve transferred to another school … one that awards credit to devoted students who work as diligently and contribute as heavily as they do.
Some other possible transfers(?):
Shannoninmiami
Fauxmccoy
Gbrbsb
Lonnie, Grey Winter, I’m here but very busy and keep falling the hell to sleep! Have a cold, no big deal, trying to get rid of all my possessions (including books, which are heavy!) so I can travel lighter and step lighter on the land, etc. etc. Major effort from a minor effort-maker, you can imagine.
For about three days I have been in a time crunch. I hope this won’t go on for long, though, and I do check in (very occasionally) to check up. My problem is that if I start reading in depth then I start blogging and soon I haven’t realized that two hours have passed — HELP!
Best regards to all — hey where IS BB?
Yes, I guess we all have to back away for a while at some time. That’s probably what everyone else, including BB is doing.
Not gone, not transferred. Catch you later —
Oh, in advance, I’ll be absent on Monday Feb. 18 — to New York for a great show at Joe’s Pub — be there or be square as they say…
Well, well. Now we see how rumors get started!
Good to hear from you, Malisha. Hope you can get a little rest before your trip!
BB has a new post up at:
http://dothprotesttoomuch.com/
“Let’s Go To The Video Tapes!”
FEBRUARY 14, 2013
It was a very good article.
Anyone catch court today?
I hope it’s ok with the Professor and BB that I posted that link.
No problem… We are Family!!!
Perhaps for fogen it’s more about what was said on the messages rather than the voice anaysis after all they know it’s not fogen screaming Just trying to find dirt on the victim.I don’t think Trayvon was an angel he was probably like my son who hated school and skipped school constanly which drove me crazy.I was worried he would never hold a job.None of my worries came to pass.Trayvon’s family will never get this chance.
HE is an angel. He is just human, and not perfect. If you check what has been released, he got suspended, I think, once for skipping school. He also got in trouble for writing graffiti on a locker and having what was perceived marijuana residue on a baggy found on him. Considering the 17 years of his life, he never truly did anyone truly wrong. He never hurt anyone in his life.
follow
SpecialladyT — Do you have any insight on what surveillance from Sam’s Club, Kohl’s parking lot or Lake’s Edge Apartments has to do with Trayvon’s murder?
Aren’t they all on his possible route back from the 7-11?
unitron
Don’t know. Not familiar with route from 7-11 to R@TL.
http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMSamsClub.jpg
Thanks , LLMPapa.
LLMPapa…… Good one! …lol…
They are all in the neighborhood, but none of them seem to really be along the most likely route back. Kohl’s parking lot is the closest, but is on the opposite side of a major street.
O’ Mara was looking to see if Trayvon tried to steal any cars that are on the way there or home. He also wanted the video of a car dealership.
You know, something like that did actually cross my mind–since his entire case plan seems to rest on finding some way to prove that Trayvon was never any good and deserved to die.
When he first asked for those videos it was all over that’s what he was looking for. I firmly believe they were looking to see if Trayvon tried to open a car door along the way home.
How did that work out ??
This latest Motion I believe is a message to the Judge telling her Fogen asked for this, not I.
2 Mr. Zimmerman has involved himself in discovery…..
Huhhhhhhhh ?? That’s the first time we’ve seen that stated and why?
It’s highly doubtful he went anywhere near those places they are way out of his way.
Not in the parking lots…along the route home. The cameras cover parts of the street he was walking on. Remember, he’s desperate.
FDLE went over those videos and found there was no relevant information. OTOH, they did find and enter the clubhouse videos and the M&I Bank video into discovery.
Funny how every angle the defense takes dies a quick, quiet death. I just hate when that happens.
I’ll take “Incompetent, Unethical, Desperate Lawyers” for $5,000.00 Alex !!
@racerrodig. It appears that each time the State turns over discovery that is not beneficial to GZ, O’Mara responds by asking for something silly that has no bearing on what the State provided. It’s GZ’s nature to toss forth garbage as the evidence that convicts him, that he cannot explain away, piles high.
How high do you think that pile is now…..50 foot??
@racerrodig.
Well, let’s see;
Forensic evidence = 100 ft.
Physical evidence = 100 ft.
ME’s Report = 100 ft.
Clubhouse videos = 100 ft.
GZ’s Phone Records = 100 ft.
Debris lab report = 100 ft.
GZ’s voice captured on the 911 call cursing Trayvon as Trayvon screams in pain, fear, and for help= 100 ft.
FBI investigation report that Trayvon did not enter that gated community by Taaffe’s house = 100 ft.
None of GZ’s and Zidiot distractions can erase this evidence.
I’ll take “Underestimating Evidence” for $1,000.00 Alex.
Which goes to show why BDLR said at the last hearing that he doesn’t know why the defense needs expert witnesses.
The grass fertilizer made Fogens nose runny and gave him something called “Triggerpullitise”
@racerrodig.
Oh yeah. That is why Smith allowed GZ to clean up after arriving in the police station because the smell of the fertilizer was horrible.
Racer & Xena, As the trial date comes closer and closer, and the defense is becoming more and more desperate, I think that it would be fun and creative to try to come up with various requests and excuses that the defense might try to use. Heck, we might even help the pathetic fogen team along by giving them a few ideas………..just like the outhousers do……
@grey winter sky
Okay. Here’s one;
O’Mara: “Your honor, it’s impossible for our client to get a fair trial. There are internet bloggers and even Discovery ID has aired a program saying that the defendant is guilty.”
BDLR: “Your honor, the defendant’s brother continues to appear in the media calling the victim a “savage” and proclaiming the defendant innocent. On that basis, the State has justification to raise concern about sitting an impartial jury. Because the defendant can’t raise enough money to cover costs of his defense, we have reason to believe there are more people believing in his guilt than innocence. The best thing to do to resolve this is for the defendant to request a bench trial.”
“BDLR: “Your honor, the defendant’s brother continues to appear in the media calling the victim a “savage” and proclaiming the defendant innocent. On that basis, the State has justification to raise concern about sitting an impartial jury. Because the defendant can’t raise enough money to cover costs of his defense, we have reason to believe there are more people believing in his guilt than innocence. The best thing to do to resolve this is for the defendant to request a bench trial.”
O’ Mara “That suits my client just fine your Honor”
BDLR “I really don’t think the defendant really comprehends what has transpired you Honor, not in the least”
O’ Mara “Oh he does your Honor”
BDLR “The State has no objections then
O’ Mara “Oh good then…..my client has this “Get out of Jail Free” card and would like to redeem it now your honor”
BDLR “I just knew it.FogenPhuckingPhoole…..typical”
@racerrodig.
LOL!! And then West stands to argue with the judge until she says, “For the third time ….”
That was great on Tuesday…..for the 3rd time…..now it’s time out for you.
Some of us have already done that on HP !! It’s a gas how a Zidiot will take the prompt and run with it. what Phoole’sFogenPhollowers are.
Stealing cars, stolen jewelry, accidental discharge, Trayvon luring Fogen……anything is possible with the Zidiot Nation.
@racerrodig
http://tinyurl.com/atu52tz
Fogen was involving himself in discovery in the request for school records back on Oct 5th. Could have earlier but I do see it here.
Okay. I thought this was the 1st time…my bad.
You know how crazy that is, If he thinks that, this man needs his head examined. Why would Trayvon attempt to steal a car when he got his little brother at home waiting for him? It’s stupid to even make that a possibility, he got to be playing games. I think he’s just trying to stall. Trayvon was staying with his dad, do MOM, knw anything about black dads! lol apparently not.
@Tee. So, GZ changes his testimony to;
“Uh. I said he was looking at houses but what I meant was that he was looking at cars.”
Yep…he was looking between all the cars and I saw him by the mail schruck, did I say mailboxes…..my bad……it was the mail schruck.
Moron O’ Mara, that says it all. When the request for CCTV from those stores was filed, the Zidiots were right on O’ Mara said Trayvon was involved in an auto theft ring. Riiiiiiight !!
Did anyone notice the request for Kohl’s specified 3pm-8pm? The rest just asked for the tapes from that day. The Bank is beside Kohl’s.
There are car dealers across from those places. What does lifting a door handle prove if that’s what they’re after? My husband and I have car shopped/browsed and he’ll try the door. Sometimes they’re open and he wants to see the interior. Oooo…so criminal! Trayvon might have been dreaming about his first car like every teenager has. Not unheard of.
Sam’s Club is right beside the 7-11. On google maps it places it
many stores away from where it actually is. If you go to streetview on google maps you will see you drive just feet away from the 7-11 as you enter the Sam’s parking lot from Rineheart.
He’s chasing shadows…and wasting time. If he’s giving FogenPhoole a glimmer of hope with this, he’ll be crying soon.
The Treethumper stumpers claim that Trayvon supporters started that rumor and that we’re trying to pull something with it.
They say that because it failed. They started that months ago and shortly after O’ Mara asked for the videos. They seem to forget that they are so predictable it’s a laugh riot from this side of the fence.
Okay, I think I’m getting at what’s been bugging me about those three guys who “coincidentally” show up at 711, by car, just as Trayvon is getting ready to leave. Here’s the video: http://tinyurl.com/che8csw
Of course there are other videos of the 711, as I come across them again I’ll put them at this link as well.
Note how they come in hiding their faces? They try to appear discrete about it, but they’re covering their faces none-the-less. Is that Ranesburg with the sunglasses? At night? What’s with that eh?
Now get this, he removes his hat and makes quite a show of unfurling and showing his braids. I read that as a hair/braids fetish. But, unless he comes down to 711 either every day or on Sundays, to display his hair on their cctv, then why is he doing it on this Sunday? You wouldn’t suspect that he has a reason to believe the video taken this night, will be of particular interest to the world?
As far as anyone should know, this cctv video taken that night, should not even be of interest to the security firm that stores the videos. So, unless someone knows something, there’s no reason at all to “perform” for the camera that night. As far as anyone should know, there’s no reason to make sure that you’re center camera all by your lonesome. So, why even bother unless you think that somehow this video has a possibility of being of interest to someone later on? If it is going to be of interest to anyone later on, it would have to be because it involves Trayvon. Meaning, to treat this time as anything special, you have to have knowledge that something is planned for Trayvon that night. Even if you don’t know exactly what, you need to know something, unless that is, you go around to the stores making this kind of performance for the cctv’s all the time.
But then, why hide your face?
Ranisberg is also noted for wearing white tee shirts. Ring any bells? Someone came running north seconds after the fatal shot was fired, a man in a white tee shirt is seen on the body, and there was probably another person somewhere in the area, after all the Ranisberg group involved three, him and two cohorts. Likely GZ knew these guys, he lives close enough and they’re thieves. GZ could very well have been using these guys, after all, GZ has useful connects with the police. As with all such arrangements, it’s not to far gone to imagine that something might have gone wrong with the relationship. GZ, fearing that someone knows something and can expose him, is threatening to get someone, Ranesburg might have decided to feed him Trayvon instead.
Maybe GZ blames these boys for the loss of that $3,000 dollar laptop, in his financial condition that would make him seriously mad. If he were told that TM ratted him out and/or cause the loss of the laptop, or maybe he stole it himself, well… Something like that has the makings moving GZ to try to make trouble.
Okay, waaaaay to many suppositions here, waaaay to much conjecture and guess work, all there is, is a very gossamer thread that isn’t very clear itself. But, that said, it’s still a decent hunch, so let’s keep an eye out in case something else is discovered. Maybe these bones will pick up some flesh. It’s not totally out of the realm that they might.
@Lonnie Starr
Since learning that GZ went into hiding after leaving the police station, it’s been my impression that he feared someone other than anyone associated with Trayvon. Capturing Trayvon was part of a plan to get someone else out of trouble with the cops, and my thoughts were on Burgess. It is likely it involved GZ’s band of thieves. GZ didn’t want the cops coming to his house and I continue associating whatever he moved out that night with the $135 that he spent at the post office while living with Osterman.
Good theorizing. All the pieces I have to this puzzle are still in the blender, so giving me pieces of other theories and evidence to put in the blender works. I’m with you along the lines that TM had some, as yet unknown utility to GZ and Ransberg in the Burgess mess, and is somehow tied to the pricey bit of mailing GZ did.
I also just noted that TM leaves the 711 almost half a minute or more, but waits outside before the car pulls up, presumably with that crew inside. Meaning that TM was waiting for them and he expected them to arrive. This was, then, no chance or coincidental meeting! Trayvon, as I suspected, had been lured from home.
Now I need those other 711 camera angles to review. But if that car that comes almost half a minute after TM leaves the store, was the car with those boys inside, Trayvon should have been on his way back home, not waiting outside for people who he didn’t know and was not intending to meet.
@Lonnie Starr. My first impression is that Trayvon stood outside the 7-Eleven because of the rain. Now, think about this. He walked to the store. One of GZ’s gang could have seen Trayvon walking in R@TL, leaving it, and walking down that road to the store. They may have needed to communicate with GZ, and were instructed to go to where Trayvon was. Meanwhile, there’s a man at M&I Bank at the ATM around the same time that Trayvon enters and the leaves the 7-Eleven.
GZ’s phone records are what is going to reveal his communications before he called NEN to report a suspicious person. For the 2nd degree murder charge, it will provide evidence that GZ did not casually leave his home to go grocery shopping.
Lonnie Starr says:
February 14, 2013 at 8:09 am
“Maybe GZ blames these boys for the loss of that $3,000 dollar laptop, in his financial condition that would make him seriously mad. If he were told that TM ratted him out and/or cause the loss of the laptop, or maybe he stole it himself, well… Something like that has the makings moving GZ to try to make trouble.”
Wait, whoa, IIRC, I never heard anything about GZ losing a $3000 laptop. I thought that was a neighbors/someone else at RTL?
I need to learn how to do the gray-box shadowing for quotes.
That was just a remark that perhaps, maybe, the real intended fence for that stolen laptop was GZ. The laptop that Emmanuel Burgess was busted for. It has to do with claims/speculation that GZ was using NW as a cover for a theft ring, which allowed him to case the neighborhood.
Burgess stole the 3,000 dollar laptop, it winds up in Ransburgs backpack. When the police find it there, Burgess claims it and get’s carted off to jail while Ransburg is let go. So, what if Ransburg knew GZ? Possible? GZ doesn’t have much in the way of income, so one has to wonder what his internet/ebay activity shows, eh? Maybe GZ was promised the laptop, but Ransberg has to tell GZ that someone stole it, then later that month he points out TM as the thief. Something like that. Could those be the questions Taaffe says TM should have answered?
@Lonnie:
Your post makes a lot of sense to me. Remember during the 911 phone call Trayvon was screaming and one of his screams was this, ‘I don’t know them!’ I kept saying to myself, what was Fogen questioning him about? Why was he screaming that he did not know them? Who is them? Reading your post? That could be what Fogen was questioning TM about. Tray didn’t know “them” and he had no reason too.
Ah yes, I remember that. Another piece of data to pop into my “blender”. I’ve got a lot of messages to work through, then I’m going to go back and take another look at the other 711 videos. See if you can capture the file with that remark in it or post the link. I’ve probably got it somewhere but this will speed things up. thanks.
OK, Lonnie. Time to fill some of the rest of us in. Personally, I tend to stick to looking for horses when I hear hooves, rather than zebras, but, I watched the video you linked. Does appear as though Trayvon hung around a bit–and those 3 guys were certainly bizarre in their get-up. I thought I might have caught the words security-cam in the convo with the clerk. But–who on earth is Ranisberg and what’s this about a $3,000 laptop?
OH? You haven’t read about Emmanuel Burgess and his Feb 7th arrest? He had been spotted hanging around this woman’s townhouse when her 3k laptop was stolen. The police came a few days later when someone called in that guys who met the description were hanging around. The found the laptop in Dude Ransburgs backpack, but Burgess claimed the stolen laptop as his. So the police took him and let the other guys go.
Ransberg is a white guy who hangs with three blacks. On that Sunday however, Burgess was in jail, so Rainsberg would only have two black guys with him. Looks to me like that’s who we see in the 711, what a coincidence eh?
Lonnie,
If someone is wearing a cap over lots of hair, it can easily get to feel too hot (especially if it was quite a bit warmer inside the store) or uncomfortable for some other reason. That’s the most likely reason that he shook it out.
As for some of the other things you said: do you actually have any reason to believe that is Rainsberg (or however it is spelled – you spelled it several different ways) and his friends, other than speculation based on the races of the young men? Anything at all placing them at the site of the shooting – after all, white t-shirts are not exactly rare items? And I don’t get your point about the 7-11 video – if they knew something was going to happen between GZ and Trayvon that night, why would that want to make one of them want to “perform” for the camera?
Stores in Florida are generally not heated but air conditioned. At 60 degrees they turn the air conditioning off. Florescent lights don’t generate much heat. I don’t have the spelling of Ranesburgs name down yet, I’ve too much to do to catch up but I eventually hope to.
You have, of course, noted that I say this is speculation that I haven’t yet put in order or confirmed? Fine, but I doubt that guy’s reason for taking off his hat and showing his braided hair was because it was hot in the store, look at the video, he has only just come in.
No, I can’t say this is Ranesburg, because we don’t have any pictures of him. All we know about him from the records is that he is a white guy who travels with three black guys, one of whom is Burgess, who is at that time in jail. So now this guy is traveling with two black guys, it kinda makes sense that it’s him, of course I could be wrong, but then. Consider that Burgess and the boys live pretty close to where Trayvon is staying and close to GZ as well. They are thieves and I’m pretty sure they’ve crossed paths with GZ.
So, other than that, so far all we can do is weave theories that help us discover what other evidence needs to be searched for.
But, I’m going to guess that it’s a good bet that these three are the ones that hung out with Burgess and that they’ve probably caused TM to come to the store for a meeting somehow. So, that will be one of my working theories.
Also, I checked the video again, and the guy with the long braids is wearing a gray jersey, not a white t-shirt.
I think he has a white tee underneath the Jersey and he was wearing a white tee shirt when he was stopped with Burgess’s stolen laptop in his backpack.
Well which is it Fogen. Was Trayvon trying to break into houses (@ 7pm mind you when everyone would be home watching the game–not a senior cat burglar) or was he trying to break into and steal used cars? Funny how the defense only focuses on demonizing the victim when they should focus on the forensics (which would be the heart of a stand your ground self defense); But whoops I forgot, it wasn’t self defense, it was murder. Their only option is to taint the jury to get them to believe that Trayvon deserved to die. I guess Fogen and his team forgot that is God’s decision.
Trained Observer ~ The reason for the Sam Club and Kohl survelliance is because one of GZ supporters Nettles 18 email O’mara and told him to look into it. They think Trayvon was getting ready to break into a car there. I seen some of his supporters mention it on the debate page. I’m like you I don’t see what it have to do with Trayvon murder.
That broad, nettles18, is a Canadian and her name is Annette Kelly. From reading her posts on the debate page, she spends most of her free time digging up dirt and personal information on Tracy, Sybrina, aunts, uncles, all the children, Trayvon and anyone who is connected to the family. She is obsessed with this case and spews the Conservative SHIThouse crap all day long. She is the one who spilled the beans about O’Mara asking the “masses” to do HIS investigations for him. She needs her head examined!
AK is intelligent enough to communicate in an articulate way, but not smart enough to see the light in this case. Probably has a black man fear, IMHO. She is one of those Treeper Stumpers who continually finds fault with the Martin family.
Crazy behind Zidiots think up all types of conspiracy theories when none of them prove that GZ killed Trayvon in self-defense. If they would get off their bigoted racist horse maybe they will see that even their thugification of Trayvon does not help GZ. Rather, it drives in the inference that GZ’s supporters believe that he committed a racial hate-crime.
Junior isn’t helping either by his failure to publicly disagree with Randy Hahn.
Should be entertaining to see Jr on Bill Maher on HBO tonight.
I don’t have HBO, so if someone could share it with us, that would be great! I want to see Bill rip Jr up!
Fogen projects. If Fogen himself was involved in thievery, this would explain him and his defense team projecting it on Trayvon..
I just replied to Xena’s post that the State never turned over any video’s of those locations. I read in discovery that the FDLE never admitted video’s from those locations because they were reviewed by the FDLE and they didn’t find anything of relevance on them.
SpecialladyT says:
February 13, 2013 at 6:24 am
Xena, you are right, the State has never turned over video’s of those locations and the defense has never noted that they ever received them! Is this just another pathetic way of generating donations?! Holy crappolla!
Speciallady T ~ That woman need her a MAN or a DILDO or something. She’s an old lonely and confused woman with no kids. She doesn’t have a life. They worship her on that debate page they think she always right never wrong. She is one of the many DUMBA$$ that be sending GZ money.
rotflmao!!!
Oh, you don’t have to tell me, everyone knows she’s a whack job!!!
I am quite certain she will fly from Canada to the Florida State Penn to visit fogen when he is sentenced. After Shellie finally smartens up and dumps fogen’s ass she will then propose to that killer and he will accept.
P.S. I believe her donations are on auto-pay. lolololol
Hmmm? I don’t like this type of argument, I would imagine a women can have sex all day long and it doesn’t make her one bit more wise or normal if she has a mental tendency. At least I am not aware of such a therapy.
Are you aware this is one of the standard misogynic or sexist arguments? I am always a bit baffled when I see women using it. or are two actually male?
But yes, I noticed too that quite a few ladies over at the nutters seem to sprout the most racist nonsense.
Just want to echo leander. I have been hit with that kind of mess on other sites by people who disagree and run out of logical or factual arguments. I say leave the insults alone–particularly when they make ugly assumptions about personal matters.
???
I wasn’t the one who suggested that this nut need toys, p.s. I’m all set.
I don’t see any reason to stoop to personal attacks and name-calling. It’s enough to speculate in a civil way.
@Two Sides To A Story: Those GZ supporters are vicious. I have one in particular on YT that goes by xroosterxx. I will make a comment on someone else’s video and he will resort to the LOL!!” every 4 words and has lately taken to calling me a bitch and questioning my intelligence and how TM supporters all take the position of being persecuted while they are the ones stating that fogen is being railroaded. This wo/man has taken to going through my photos on FB and mentioned my niece and nephews, my FB name and the last place that he could figure my age. It takes all I’ve got not to kick out at this particular dog. It is not easy. I have to remind myself to not fall away from the known facts and not be steered into his lane. I do perceive this one in particular to be dangerous. I wanted to mention this b/c it obviously upset me when he mentioned my niece/nephews.
Uh…O’Mara best be careful. No telling what might pop up on a surveillance vid with the right equipment, LOL
[IMG]http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMGZClubhouseFilter.jpg[/IMG]
Sorry bout that. Here’s a direct link.
http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMGZClubhouseFilter.jpg
I have always wondered why nothing came of that ghostly bald face on the clubhouse door
Wow! I had come to the conclusion that the ghostly image was just light reflecting off of a pole!
Great job!!!
LOL@LLMPapa!! You know, Amsterdam analyzed the clubhouse videos and for one room, pointed out seeing the reflection of GZ’s face. When I saw it, I felt as if I was watching a horror movie. I generally don’t see much of what others do in the clubhouse videos, but I surely saw that.
Haha awesome
Finally, an opportunity to tell you what a genius I think you are. You are amazing. I watch all of your YouTube videos almost as fast as you can put them out. I hope the prosecutor is watching them also.
@LLMPapa, Your videos have been a constant and unwavering voice of reason speaking for Trayvon from the grave. I’ve long wanted to thank you for the gift of each one. Powerful and moving, they are uncompromising in exposing the raft of lies that fogen and his crowd have promoted to justify the murder of a child. Thank you for your videos, and I look forward to the next.
Same here, Papa, you do an awesome job! Thank you!
Faith in eye witnesses, open thread is a good time to pots this interesting scenario.
Check out the woman who kept eating her spaghetti as it happened; she’d be a real danger to Fogen, you betcha!
Says a lot about human nature, eh? Even having the safety of numbers, no one steps in to help.
But apparently that is part of human nature. If there is only one person there who could help, they would be more likely to do it. With others there not helping, it is less likely that one person will step out and do it.
Discovery is continuing and then the self-defense hearing. MOM has said that he can show self-defense with the evidence without the defendant testifying. How can he do this?
I posted earlier on the previous thread. This is almost the same but stuff has been added and/or modified.
I’ve been trying to figure out what evidence the defense could present at the hearing to show self-defense without the defendant testifying.
There are his medical reports of head lacerations and a possible broken nose presented by the nurse practitioner who can testify about the severity of the injuries and when she saw the defendant. She cannot testify to anything the defendant told her about how he got the injuries. When the injuries happened would be by subpoena of the EMTs who treated him on the scene with further descriptions of the injuries. The taker of the bloody picture would be subpoenad to identify the where and when of the photo. Which EMT/s chosen by the defense would depend on the content of their depositions. The one/s most favorable to the defendant would be chosen.
There are witnesses who can be subpeonad who saw the defendant on the ground with Trayvon on top of him. The defense will claim, as it has, that the defendant was trapped and was being beaten by Trayvon.
What else is there? Does anyone have any other ideas? I know, you don’t want to give the defense any ideas.
The prosecution would show by cross examination of defense witnesses that all the injuries were superficial and not indicative of any kind of bashing. The lacerations weren’t bad enough to warrant stitches. The photographer would testify re: the complementary photo of the defendant’s face taken at SPD which would be entered evidence to show that most of the swelling had gone down just a few hours later and that there was no sign of black eyes.
Point to be argued, where are the X-rays proving a broken nose? Is this a fair question for the prosecution to present?
Would the prosecution enter the autopsy report into evidence? It shows that Trayvon has no injuries or DNA on him consistent with hitting the defendant but wouldn’t it open up lots more questions to the ME about other aspects of the autopsy report and turn the focus on the prosecution’s case rather than on the defendant’s stories?
What can be used to counter the witnesses? There is the video of the defendant’s admission to Serino that he had Trayvon in a wrist lock and that he, the defendant had control, enough control to pull his gun, aim it, and shoot.
And maybe this is the place for the 911 call with the scream and with the expert who can show who was screaming, who else can be heard, and what they were saying. Regardless of who was on top, the person in distress was Trayvon.
As an aside, what’s interesting about the Serino interview video, (LLMpapa are you there?) is that the walk-thru video contradicts it. Watch the defendant’s hands in the walk-thru as he describes reaching for his gun and shooting. Then watch it in the Serino interview. Maybe I’m not remembering them right, but I don’t think they show the same thing.
I don’t know that the eye witness accounts are going to be as helpful as Z. would want. The one who appeared strongest initially–describing MMA punches (John? or Jon?) changed his story. Not only does his changing the story make him look wobbly, but he didn’t change it in a direction that helps Z. And there are conflicts between witnesses. It will be interesting to see if Z. had any phone contact with any of them.
I think that O’Mara has been counting on the bloody picture to “prove” that Trayvon beat Z. But, I would guess that there will be some medical experts for the prosecution available to testify that the injuries were minor, suggest some possible injury producing mechanisms (including bushes). I think that O’Mara has been doing a lot of whistling in the dark. He has a client who has already, in all likelihood, destroyed any chance of his being able to make a case–and who cannot be put on the stand.
I agree that the MMA description and that witness is a problem. But weren’t there other witnesses who described the defendant on the bottom and Trayvon on top? I think MOM would see that as helpful. I’m being a bit lazy in not looking it up and hoping that someone else has the information at the ready.
BK–It has been a while since I have looked at all of them, but it seems as though there was not a real clear picture emerging from the bunch. Some details were odd (the person in white was on top–for instance). The kid with the dog only saw one person down and calling out (maybe both were prone? one on top of the other). One woman was quite certain it was the larger man on top and she saw him get off just after the shot. One woman saw two, or maybe one, go by her window running, but wasn’t really sure.
thanks, lurker. I agree that the witnesses all saw something different MOM would subpoena only the witness/es that support the defense story. Guess it’s time to look through the witness statements to see if any of them support the defense contention that you-know-who was on the bottom. I can’t believe he is naive enough to think the rest of what I postulated is enough. Or maybe he is going through the motions expecting that they aren’t going to prevail.
I expect the prosecution might take all those witness statements and describe the elephant.
Lurker, you asked in an earlier post when Zimmerman said that it wasn’t his voice on the scream tape. That happened on 2/29, I believe, when Det. Serino played the tape and Zimmerman heard it for the first time. When he was asked it it was him, he said. ‘No’, and ‘It doesn’t even sound like my voice’ or ‘like me’, I don’t recall exactly which. That interview was audio only, if I’m not mistaken.
“…that doesn’t even sound like me….’
Any takers on an over / under how many times that part of his interview will be replayed for the jury…..I’ll go 6 as the number.
I have said since last year that there are only 2 things FogenPhoole said that we know are true.
1) “…..then I got out of my truck..”
2) “….that’s when I drew my firearm, aimed and fired one shot..”
Now I have to add
3) “…that doesn’t even sound like me…”
How on Gods Green Earth did I miss that one????????
Don’t forget that during one of GZ’s interviews, he stated, “he yelled for help…and I shot him.” Also once during the reenactment and partially during one of the audio statements, he stated that “he put his hand on his nose and mouth, I mean, he put his hand on my nose and mouth.”
He has quite a few Freudian slips that most certainly will be hammered on by the State.
He yelled, so I shot him. Picture him when he says I aimed and fried one shot during his reenactment ……the “…what’s are ya gonna do..” shoulder shrug……sickening
Only w6 has claimed Trayvon was on top of the defendant
@Race Don’t forget “I WAS ON HIM”
another one of Forgens “freudian TRUTHS”
Yep….that’s what he said I had a wrist lock, thereby an opportunity to exercise a means of escape (mandated in the SYG law) and at on point I was on him.
Maybe he meant in the context that we use “…I’m on this..” (cutting the grass, stirring the sauce etc etc etc)
No, I’d say he meant “I was on top of him and still shot him dead”
The wrist lock is just another GZ lie, but only in it’s timing. No doubt he administered a painful wrist lock, but it wasn’t necessary to control TM who wasn’t fighting at all. GZ attempts to make it appear that a wrist lock was necessary for his own safety because TM was so dangerous and powerful. While, in fact, Trayvon never raised his hands, as the alignment of the holes in his garments will show.
This will probably prove to be quite interesting.
http://tinyurl.com/bavjdzl
Yep, Black Dynamite Slim …….wrist lock, which was probably administered as soon as he confronted Trayvon.
That article I read earlier. A hahahahahahahahahaha He’s Toast !
TOAST FOR SALE………TOAST FOR SALE
EACH PIECE GUARANTEED TO HAVE TO IMAGE OF FOGEN ON IT
And just how burnt is that toast…….blackened ??
The image of fogen is….for contrast darker…..NOT to make him look like a negro…..that would be racist……….
“.that would be racist……….” We can’t have any accusations like that now can we……homie.
Reminds me, I gotta go in eBay and get a 4 slice toaster, I love making garlic toast snacks.
You gotta get one of those Hot Dog toasters also….man, they put a new meaning into “…food that’s bad for ya, but so what..” It toasts the buns also !!
…Re W6 who modified his statement about “MMA”. George said “MMA” to Serino in an interview on the 29th(the date, I think)
I finally got around to enhancing that audio from the 29th about a week ago. The volume was low where George is speaking. I could not believe it when I heard George say “MMA”.
I came here and was blown away that the Professor has either a comment or a post up referring to the odds of both these people referring to “MMA”. I can no longer doubt my own ears. I had thought it too outrageous to be believed!
The FDLE folks know what’s up, because it’s Batchelor who asked W6 about his reference to “MMA”…to which he responded that it’s all over the TV now.
W6 is a grown man who must know the gravity of what has happened. How stupid can he be to do this?
I have felt from the beginning that George and his buddies were calling up witnesses – possibly pretending to be media, possibly they were in cahoots – to find out what they saw and what they told police.
This is the outcome of George being allowed to walk free. He was able to move around and synchronize his stories with others in the community.
They are stupid and deserve what they get (those in cahoots with George). O’Mara was trying to get access to “Biographical” data about witnesses. That includes social security numbers, car tags, credit info, job info etc for the witness and his/her relatives and associates. That should send a chill up their stupid spines.
I’m doing a search on Ransberg and I come across a Tampa Bay Times article that has since been deleted from their site. But a recovered copy of the article states that Ransberg is Thomas Ransberg and is a home owner in RATL, is 20 years old, has dreadlocks and is black. Here, the article is at the link just below the DD video: http://tinyurl.com/byyokld
I was thinking more about MMA-John. He was real gung-ho-yeah-you-shoulda-seenit-wowzee about the event in the beginning, when it was real clear that the listening audience was made of people who were not only buying Fogen’s story but SELLING IT as well in a police cover-up pyramid scheme. But when it became obvious that things were not as easy-peasey as he originally thought, well then, the atmosphere got dark and unclear, the punches got unthrown, a few bells got unrung, and gee willikers, it was hard to tell what happened.
Interesting that O’Mara is not interested in getting this guy’s deposition, right? They don’t need to ask him any questions because they’re the ones answering questions for him, and he has these two questions to ask:
1. What should I say? and —
2. Are you sure I’m not gonna get in trouble for this?
@Malisha
O’Mara already deposed John. OS published an article on it. O’Mara mentioned John in a motion but omitted that he changed his story several times.
Lonnie,
What it said about Thomas Ransberg in that article is pretty innocent and doesn’t connect him with any crime.
Of course it doesn’t, now go read the burglary report.
He may have been on top while they were struggling but not for long trayvon was lighter and not as strong.
I think #6 says somewhere, he observed about 18 seconds.
considering his overestimation of time passed between he heard loud voices and the scream (5 minutes) his guess may be wrong and he may have witnessed events out there even for a much shorter time.
And now, I return to my tasks, definitively.
Ok, one last thing. The timing of the start of witness #11′s call and the shot is taken by the expert (Michael A. Knox.) based on Singleton’s time-line of events in Serino’s capias. Very strange since he has a very detailed and precise time-line on everything else on first sight. I stumbled upon it by using the surprise me button on Amazon.
That can’t be a mistake it feels to me. Treeslaw / Whonoze did an update based on the 7th discovery files, you find on YouTube concerning the call.
The page must be 216, not completely sure if I can link to it. This time I needed to scroll back. The first time it showed immediately: Time-line of the shooting.
I have already decided what to read on my travel otherwise, I would have gotten myself a kindle copy.
John is the only witness who said Trayvon was on top. W18, W12, W5 and W16 all said GZ was on top.
thanks, amsterdam. guess that just leaves the medical evidence, such as it is.
John also change his story he said that Trayvon wasn’t hitting Fogen just ” like pinning him down”.
@bettykath
And without GZ on the stand explaining his near death experience, it is just 2 minor cuts on the back of his head and some blood on his nose. I’m sure the prosecution will show the photos taken at the police station with a proper camera and good lighting, just a couple of hours after the incident.
I looked a lot worse after I fell off my bike. The road rash above my lip was terrible. He doesn’t have that at all.
“And maybe this is the place for the 911 call with the scream and with the expert who can show who was screaming, who else can be heard, and what they were saying. Regardless of who was on top, the person in distress was Trayvon.”
Can we be sure that an expert will be able to show who was screaming, who else can be heard and what they were saying? I am so looking forward to hearing that! Justice for Trayvon!
I haven’t been able to distinguish the two different voices on my computer, although I have heard several different posters say that they can hear the second voice, (BDLR also mentioned a second voice at one of the hearings), and I imagine the State has much better equipment to enhance the recording better than many of us.
Also, before the second voice on the tape was ‘discovered’ a question that seemed to be asked quite frequently was…
If Trayvon was smothering Fogen while bashing his head against the cement, how could the screams be so long and uninterrupted?
Betty, Mara doesn’t get it. You know, someone has to testify: ‘I feared for my life and fired my firearm’ or ‘something to that effect. Someone has to claim, ‘Trayvon punched the defendant, broke his nose, got on top of him, started straddling him, bashing his head repeatedly on the concrete sidewalk, covered his mouth and nose, rained down blows to his face and head, went for his gun’, etc., or ‘something to that effect. This is the core of the defendant’s self-defense story. No other person can testify to these but the defendant alone. O’Mara/counsel cannot put such forward for the defendant.
You’re right, of course. I was exploring MOM’s comment that self-defense could be shown by the evidence without the defendant testifying. Unless there’s something I/we missed, the only evidence is the medical stuff and that just proves a scuffle between the defendant and some bushes and his gun.
Great points. I’d like to know more about the grass on Z’s jacket that one of the first responders saw,when in the pictures taken at LE station shows no grass or stains on Z’s jacket.
Tim Smith told Serino that GZ had grass/rain on his back as if he’d been on his back but I don’t remember anyone else saying it?
I think that comment was meant to set up the cover story and let serino in on plan, and serino perpetuated it by adding it to his narrative..
did anyone else say anything about it, like in a report?
did the forensics come back on gz’s clothing? and did it mention any dirt on the jacket or pants? does anyone know?
Waving the bloody photos around and interpreting the forensics in Fogen’s favor, I would think. Taking his “Okay” statement at face value. Fogen’s statements that Trayvon looked like he was up to no good. There’s not much else they’ve got to prove self-defense. IANAL, so just my two cents – I think if Fogen doesn’t testify at a self-defense hearing, we’re going to see pretty much what we’ve been seeing all along.
Oh, and there are one or two witness statements that might be in his favor- or were, in the original versions.
@Two sides. If I understand correctly, O’Mara can only enter the photos of GZ’s head and nose by placing Wagner and Jon on the witness stand because they took them. Then, the State has opportunity to cross-examine and call their witness who took the photos in the police station. The EMT who said that GZ’s face was 45 percent covered with blood can be called by the defense, but Wagner’s photo refutes that assessment.
On cross, the State will be able to ask if GZ pointed out where his head was purportedly bashed so that evidence could be taken. The EMT may also be asked if there was any debris on GZ’s head or if samples were taken to test for debris.
Then, there needs to be an expert witness to address blood splatter and the rivulets.
The judge then gets to see both sets of photos — before and after clean-up, and hear testimony to see if it agrees with the evidence.
The problem for O’Mara is that none of his witnesses, neither the photos, can answer whether the boo-boo’s were life-threatening. Only GZ can testify as to his reasonable belief that they were.
Thus, if he takes the stand, prosecutors should introduce questions to confirm that before he killed Trayvon, GZ removed his head from the concrete, and that the punch that purportedly broke his nose was the alleged first physical action. Therefore, the punch neither the boo-boos justified killing Trayvon in retaliation thereafter because GZ was no longer in danger of having his head further bashed on concrete.
Then comes the DNA evidence — Trayvon didn’t lay a hand on GZ.
Don’t forget the swollen broken nose photo at the scene and the nose all healed up in the station a few hours later. That has got to make the judge go Hmmmm… No?
@Lonnie Starr
Along with the physician assistant’s medical report that fails to substantiate any serious injury, and referral to an ENT for the nose that GZ did not follow-up on.
Let’s try a little mind game, eh?
Let’s say I show a picture of a man with a gaping wound in his leg, with a compound fracture all messy and bloody, and the picture is labeled 3PM 1/1/11
Now I have another picture to show of the same man all healed up in a bathing suit, sipping a martini and nary a wound or drop of blood in sight. No scar on the leg etc. nothing. Now this picture is labeled 4PM 1/1/11.
Now, let’s assume that these time stamps are absolutely, demonstrably true!
Question: What must we believe about what these pictures depict?
—–>Answers here, take as much space as you need:
@Lonnie Starr
If the photo taken at 3 PM is true, then the one taken at 4 PM is not true. If the photo taken at 4 PM is true, then the one taken at 3 PM is not true. IMO, rather than examining the wounds in the photos, the face and demeanor of the person should be examined.
If the photo taken at 3 PM shows the person all bloody, but on his phone, then he could not have been concerned about the injuries. If the photo taken at 4 PM shows a relaxed person, then I would opt to believe that the 4 PM photo is the most significant.
Try again, this time remember, the only thing verified about both pictures is the time stamps.
I believe in the “…less is more….” and “…economy of words…” line of thinking.
Now you said take as much space as I need…..bad idea….
He
Lied !!
That do it ???
Ah, I probably should have copied the post this one was in reference to. We’re drifting away from the point.
The point was, if the time stamps on the pictures is true, then what the pictures depict cannot both be true. Because a gaping compound fracture cannot heal in an hour. So there was either no fracture and that picture depicts a false wound, or the second picture is merely a copy of a picture taken before there was a wound.
If O’Mara is going to try to use the picture of GZ in the police car with the swollen nose, then he has to show that the picture at the police station is fake. Both pictures cannot be true. But the picture at the station has the better chain of custody. Meaning that of the two photos, the picture at the station without the swollen nose will be admitted and the other one discarded. O’Mara will have no evidence of injury to GZ’s nose other than GZ’s self serving testimony as a known liar.
Those 2 pictures have 0 proof as to chain of evidence custody. In NJ here, neither would even be mentioned as evidence. The police station pictures have a documented chain and from day 1 I’ve stated O’ Mara will have a real problem with the alleged crime scene pictures AND the story that nobody had a camera to take his picture…..BS on that.
You got it…how do his alleged injuries heal in an hour…….still interested in that bridge ??
I guess FogenPhoole thinks he can sell ice to Eskimo’s from the witness stand on that one….
Look for MOM to have Dr McCoy standing by with a tricorder! LOL!!!
When O’ Mara pulls some stunt like that I’ll stick with Scotty when he says “…but there’s no intelligent life here….” pointing at O’ Mara
You’ve got a much better grasp of legal procedure than me! I’m learning, but still confused about what is admissable and what is not.
TS, you’re not the only one confused about admissablilty.
I also don’t understand how some of Fogen’s statements can’t be entered in unless he testifies. If I understand correctly, it would only be his statements that go toward his defense.
Miranda rights state ‘anything you say, can and will be, used against you in a court of law,’ then assuming that, they can use anything you ‘say’ against you to ‘prove’ the crime, if I understand that correctly. Then, OTOH, wouldn’t they use anything you say that is in your favor, toward your defense? I guess I don’t get it.
Rules of Admissibility 101 by the Professor would be awesome!
Edited post above:
Then, OTOH, wouldn’t the defense be able to use anything you say that is in your favor, toward your defense? Not much in Fogen’s case, imo, but I guess I don’t get how ‘admissability’ from prosecution or defense works, as it seems the rules are different for both, if I understand correctly.
@Kimmi, the defense cannot bring any of gz’s own self serving statements, only the state can bring in his statements against him because he’s the party opponent.
Prof did a whole post about hearsay and admissible statements about 2-3 weeks ago. i’m not organized enough to fetch it, maybe someone else knows which one it is. but it’s safe to say gz cannot benefit from any of his statements unless he testifies!
BettyKath, as you stated that GZ stated that he had TM in a wrist lock which is described as being very painful. Therefore, my just being a scientist, my question is that with TM being immobilized, GZ being larger and more sturdy, did GZ have to take perfect aim such that he did not have to worry about shooting his left hand. With TM immobilized, GZ could have moved his left hand over to the right side of TM’s hoodied. So the question becomes: Why Didn’t he. Or, is the senario much like I stated in the past in that both were standing with TM trying to get away and GZ trying to restrain him. Just a Thought
With TM immobilized, what was the threat?
Oh “showing self-defense” without Fogen testifying is a waste of time and money and O’Mara knows it but he’s got to do something, now hasn’t he?
He’ll put on a police witness, perhaps Ayala. He’ll ask why Ayala didn’t try to get Fogen charged weith a crime. Ayala will say it looked like a clear-cut self-defense case. They’ll show pictures. They’ll whine about a broken nose. They’ll carry on. On cross-examination Ayala will admit that he has no real way of knowing anything (he’s not gonna risk HIS hide for the thing) and then the judge will say, “denied.” All without saying terribly bad things about poor Fogen, mind you, so as to not get another recusal scene revved up.
Malisha it’s not fair to waste so many resources and time on an immunity hearing using that ( i’ll admit pretty clever ) example you stated! BDLR wouldn’t have opportunity to sling gz and his lies around the court room for all to see!
So I OBJECT TO THAT DIRTY TACTIC on the bases of Prosecution’s insufficient access to gz!
Where O’ Mara gets he needs 2 weeks for an Immunity Hearing is beyond any scope of logic. If FogenPhoole does not testify they have virtually nothing to present. If he does the State could drag it out by incessant cross…..like they want to go down that road??
An Immunity Hearing is sometimes only a 1/2 day or so. The longest I ever saw was 2 days. It’s real simple.
bettykath,
I would think that it would be very fair for the prosecution to ask about broken nose x-rays.
It seems to me that the autopsy report and the screams would not be useful for the defense to present, and probably not needed for the prosecution to present, at the self-defense hearing.
Someone asked on another thread about real estate at the Retreat at Twin Lakes. I did a quick look. At least 6 on RVC have sold in the past year, 4 of them since 3/1/12. And at least 20 are listed for sale or rent. I didn’t look at all of them to verify if the listing are current but they do show volatility. If someone else is interested, I binged “real estate retreat at twin lakes sanford fl” this brought up the RVC entries. changing to “real estate twin trees sanford fl” brought up those on Twin Trees.
simple reality and common sense……fogen claims he was held on the ground in the struggle for his very life for over a minute, yet the clear pictures of him at the station about an hour later show his clothing to look as if it was freshly pressed not a single wrinkle, no smears on the back of any of his clothing, dry and NEAT….the medical tests checking his bp heart rate etc. showed those to be NORMAL = simple common sense there is no way on earth fogen was in ANY struggle much less one for his very life….none of the blood pattern from his minor scratches indicate he was EVER on his back NO smearing of any kind and clearly flowing down and towards the front of his head.
Fogen actually committed first degree murder of a child and, he should have been charged accordingly with the death penalty definitely on the table. but, I guess the state went with second degree because they would stand a better chance of getting a conviction. he executed that child and he is now trying to lie his way out of paying for his crime.
I pray that he is locked up for the rest of his life and who knows, maybe he will meet his demise just like someone else we all know did. Trayvon never laid a hand on him and he knows it and, for some members of the SPD to try and cover this murder up, they shoul, d all be charged with obstruction of justice. the SPD is also a big part of the reason that Trayvon is being deamonized by racist whites in this country. they were the ones leaking information about Trayvon’s school suspension as well as some other things.
They did this because, they were being investigated by the DOJ and the FBI because they did not take this case serious and do a proper investigation due to the fact that they were in cover up mode for Fogen. I read about this on a web site last night but, I can’t remember the name of the site. but it tells of how in the beginning there was no vilifying of Trayvon and his family until the SPD started leaking info on Trayvon. it’s no wonder that some people have no trust in those whose job it is to serve and protect. in some cases we need to be protected from them.
lsc–my understanding is that first degree murder requires premeditation. In other words, Z. would have had to decide that he wanted to kill Trayvon Martin, made a plan and set about to carry it through. While I have seen some suggestions about what might have transpired via phone between Z. and others prior to the incident, so far as I can tell, this remains nothing more than speculation. And my take on Z. is that he has pretty limited capacity to think through things rationally and act on them. Seems to be more of a shoot from the hip kinda guy–acting on impulse.
I think what we have is something far more like a perfect storm. Z. was pumped up (and perhaps a bit obsessively) by his vision of ridding his neighborhood of punks. He had the false courage provided by a weapon and a noisy background of loose-talking racially-biased neighbors feeding his belief system that there was some kind of war going on with a bunch of punks who were laughing at him as they entered at will and ripped off whatever they wanted.
And into the middle of this mess walked Trayvon Martin. Blam. Oops.
@lurker,
The clubhouse videos combined with Dee Dee’s statements, appear to show that GZ couldn’t have seen Trayvon near Taffe’s. Trayvon would’ve arrived at the mail area about 13 min before GZ showed up. The bushes and trees hide the mail area from RVC. The logical conclusion is that someone saw Trayvon, knew from the flyers or the newsletter that GZ was the NW guy and called him. His telephone # was in the newsletter too.
I don’t think he left his house with the intention to kill Trayvon. I do think it is possible, GZ realized he was detaining at gunpoint an innocent teenager, and the police was about to arrive. Any dreams he may have had about a carreer in law enforcement, would have evaporated, if Trayvon could’ve told his story.
That is pretty difficult to proof though.
Fogen had a Freudian Slip during his Hannity Interview when he said to the effect that he knew the cops would be there any minute and what would they think when they arrived and he had his gun out.
Since he cannot tell fact from fiction I think that is what he thought when he realized people were watching the cops were almost there. He may have thought kill the witness and claim SD. If not, he’s going to jail and now there is no LE career at all.
lurker…..I think that what you think is absolutely correct….but add to that fogen’s anger issues. Trayvon tried to escape, couldn’t answer fogen’s questions (which REALLY po’d fogen), fogen REALLY lost his temper and blam…take that you punk. And since the kid wasn’t armed with anything but skittles and a tea….a BIG OOPS.
Agree agree agree. SPD in effect gave Fogen permission to kill and then, after the fact, tried to give him a walk. Only the monumental efforts of the Fulton-Martin family and their support team and the organizations that kicked in prevented this gross miscarriage of justice from becoming a murder-by-consent ring.
I understand Corey’s decision not to go for first-degree, though. I even support it; it was smart, and you can’t beat smart.
Well, you can beat smart but you can’t beat it with dumb.
Fogen told Serino that he holstered his gun right after shooting Trayvon and Trayvon “kind of sitting up” and falling. Why holster his goddamn gun if he was still in danger? Why holster his gun in case the guy was faking being hit, and then came at him to make sure he would be diaper-worthy? NO WAY anything about that idiotic self-defense story was true and the cops KNEW IT and yet they had to all take the same line and follow it for the exact reason that Dorner went berserk in California — because you cannot stand up and try to tell the truth in the middle of a corrupt organization that has BIG GUNS.
I do not agree with Dorner’s murders. But I do recognize the kind of assaults on the senses and the sanity that deep corruption causes and I realize that it is corrosive to the human spirit. The extreme corruption of the SPD stinks to high heaven and nothing will cover that smell until it is opened up and aired and all the turds are cleared the hell OUT and it will take a Herculean effort to clean out THOSE STABLES. I hope our feds are not too week-kneed and lily-livered to do it.
@Malisha
SPD kinda gave Fogen a pass, but not enough to keep the detectives from videotaping him in a “reenactment.” Somehow, those wheels kept turning for few days.
I agree with you. I don’t believe in the death penalty personally, but I certainly believe Fogen executed Trayvon Martin.
@Cercando — They kept looking for evidence for a few days because SERINO thought Fogen was guilty of murder and he was in charge of the investigation. Once it was clear that no matter what he thought, there would be no charges drawn against Fogen, the “blue door” closed. FDLE had to open it with the help of a shoe-in by the feds.
Oh my great minds,I just mentioned the same thing in a previous comment.
Bettykath, I do not know if you saw the post I sent you concerning Experts so I will send it again. Experts are those who know more and more, about less and less, until they know everything about nothing. This is what we who operate in the arena of Geo-Chemistry and Geo-Engineering feel about Experts. We also have another saying about Experts and that is: If Experts cannot dazzle you with their Brillance, then they will try to Baffle you with their Bullshit.
On a serious note. there are various posts concerning TM being on the bottom with GZ on top/or GZ on the bottom and TM on the top. Most of the posts look at the situation as though it were a static situation. It was not, it was a very dynamic situation. TM was trying to flee and GZ was hanging on. GZ also through his own statement told the Sanford police he extended his right arm in order to shoot TM such that he did not shoot his left hand. If GZ was on top of TM and even it TM was on GZ, GZ could have easily moved his left hand over the right of TM hoodie such that he did not have to worry about shooting his left hand. In addition, look at the distance between the two on the ground and the distance does not in any way allow GZ to fully extend his arm. This also does not take into account angles or even vector analysis which is the study of two forces pulling in different directions.
In line with your “view” of experts, you know what BS is. MS is more of the same. PHD is piled higher and deeper.
You’re right that the situation was dynamic rather than static. That’s why I said the prosecution will take all the witness statements and describe the elephant. It’s a reference to the cartoon of various blind people describing an elephant from what they can “see” with their hands, each one at a different part of the elephant. In this case, the various statements describe an evolving event, not a static object. ooo, that hurt, describing an elephant as an object. change that to not an animal standing still.
BK–this is where someone with more knowledge of courtroom procedures is going to have to help me out. If O’Mara chooses not to put Z. on the stand, then are all of his statements made to police inadmissable? I mean certainly if he is on the stand, they have great value to refute what he says (in fact, WHATEVER he says, since he has changed stories so much)–but in a self-defense hearing, where the defense has the lead, do they still have the option of showing that Z’s account is full of holes when compared to the evidence regarding timelines asd suche?
If I understood previous lessons from here, I think the prosecution can admit them if it chooses, but not the defense. The only way for the defendant’s story to be admitted by the defense is for him to take the stand and tell it. Any other defense witnesses would be prevented from telling his story is b/c it is hearsay. They can only speak about what they saw or said.
It makes sense for the prosecution to hold back the defendant’s statements so the only way his story gets in is by his taking the stand and then the prosecution can use whatever from his many statements to impeach his testimony. I don’t remember the correct phrase but the concept is like he’s speaking against self-interest.
I suggested that the prosecution may want to use the part of the video from the Serino interview b/c after the defense makes its claims that the defendant was on the ground being pummeled, he got control of Trayvon and shot him. Once the defendant got control, he was no longer in danger. It’s not cricket to shoot someone just b/c you were afraid at some earlier time. If the defense decides that the video presents a wrong impression of what the defendant meant, the only person who can testify to that is the defendant. Then it will get interesting.
I’m sure the professor can correct any of my statements here that aren’t true.
But, doesn’t the SYG/self defense law not require GZ to retreat? Just asking. I think TM was the one with the right to stand his ground but I read some other Florida cases and it seems the aggressor once in the underdog position was able to kill the initial victim. The law really should be changed to Last Man Standing.
The SYG law doesn’t require that you retreat. The self-defense law requires that you retreat if you can.
MOM has decided that they SYG law doesn’t apply. Perhaps b/c of the 6-7 minutes preceding the shot which shows the defendant in pursuit. By using the self-defense law I think he will try to show that whatever transpired previous to the encounter doesn’t matter. At the time of the shot, defendant was on the ground, being beaten, afraid for his life, and unable to retreat.
The prosecution’s counter to this is the interview with Serino where the defendant describes being in control after putting Trayvon in a wrist lock.
The screamer was trapped, the sounds tell you he is not running, he may be struggling to escape but he is not in the active process of running. the desperation also tell you that he is trapped.
the shooter was not fighting
how could he fight with one hand? he was, if anything busy, restraining/choking, getting his weapon out and aiming.
Just close your eyes an listen to the call and ask yourself one question, does someone with a gun scream like that?
Thank you i’ve been saying that for months
Yep, since I first heard the 911 calls.
Especially knowing that the police would be there at any moment.
I’m telling you there is a special place in Hell for this guy. He’s gonna bust Hell wide open with gasoline draws on.
William Walton says:On a serious note. there are various posts concerning TM being on the bottom with GZ on top/or GZ on the bottom and TM on the top. Most of the posts look at the situation as though it were a static situation. It was not, it was a very dynamic situation.
That’s what so frustrating when anyone tries to discuss this case with a George fan. They swear that the laws of physics and common sense were suspended that night.
When I heard George’s story that he was able to ‘shimmy’ his body away from the sidewalk my first thought was—if you were strong enough to move your weight plus Trayvon’s weight (assuming that George was telling the truth about Trayvon sitting on his chest) then what was Trayvon doing while he was moving-was he still striking George or was he just along for the ride?
George has a very low center of gravity and Trayvon had long legs and a much higher center of gravity so why wasn’t George able to ‘bridge’ out and throw Trayvon off him at some point?
W W :TM was trying to flee and GZ was hanging on. GZ also through his own statement told the Sanford police he extended his right arm in order to shoot TM such that he did not shoot his left hand. If GZ was on top of TM and even it TM was on GZ, GZ could have easily moved his left hand over the right of TM hoodie such that he did not have to worry about shooting his left hand.
My guess is that the forensics team placed Trayvon’s hoodie under a microscope and noted that the fibers on the bottom right side of Trayvon’s hoodie had been stretched. Maybe they were even able to get an outline of George’s handprint.
W W This also does not take into account angles or even vector analysis which is the study of two forces pulling in different directions.
And the only way for the bullet to have entered Trayvon at zero angle (0) would have meant that George had to have had his gun angled at 45 degrees and Trayvon had to have been leaning at a 45 degree angle while sitting on George’s chest. That’s very improbable since Trayvon should have been moving while he was landing “MMA” style blows on George.
Maybe even a bloody thumbprint on the hem of his inner sweatshirt.
http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMBloodStain_zps35b8e69f.jpg
The DNA results show stain A as coming from George Zimmerman.
Oh, that’s gonna leave a mark.
LLMPapa, the witness who photo’d Fogen’s head also took one of Trayvon’s body. Was his hoodie up? Over his head?
I noted some of this in another post. Keen minds think alike (pats self on back).
I agree. Looks to me like a pretty good roll-around happened for at least a minute. Perhaps even a struggle for the gun.
They were both on the ground at some point. Perhaps precipitated by some pushing or grabbing. That’s consistent with the thud and Trayvon’s ear piece falling out, per Dee Dee’s testimony.
From the audible evidence so far (as described by witnesses), I imagine GZ tried to make a “citizen’s arrest” of TM – and (rightly) got punched in the face. Some of the witnesses claim to have heard a heated argument but didn’t get scared enough to call 9/11 until the screaming started.
And for the record, I don’t know who was screaming, but the test is based on “reasonable” fear, not irrational fear.
MelRoy says:They were both on the ground at some point. Perhaps precipitated by some pushing or grabbing. That’s consistent with the thud and Trayvon’s ear piece falling out, per Dee Dee’s testimony.
I think Trayvon’s ear piece could have fallen out when George first grabbed him and maybe DeeDee heard some of the conversation after it fell to the ground before disconnecting.
The only time they were both on the ground is after George shot Trayvon.
When George shot Trayvon he was still graspingTrayvon’s shirt with his left hand and since the bullet didn’t pass through Trayvon’s body, but exploded inside his body all of that force pushed Trayvon’s body backwards and since George’s right hand was outstretched he lost his balance and fell on top of Trayvon (that’s how he got the grass stains on the toes of his shoes). There was no grass on any other part of George that night.
This is why witnesses saw George get off Trayvon after the gunshot.
I think that this gives credence to when Sybrina stated that it was an accident. George probably fired the shot out of frustration not malice but he didn’t have the right to restrain Trayvon in the first place much less stalk or detain him.
Murder 2!!
Experts!
Reminds me of the story my father used to tell about the Oshee bird, found in tropical jungles. The oshee bird flies in a circle screaming Oooooooh-Sheeeeee-Ooooooo-Sheeeeee and as the circles get smaller and smaller, it flies faster and faster and the screams get louder and louder until finally it flies up its own ass and screams, “Oh-Sheeet it’s DARK IN HERE!”
But the description of experts’ testimony reminded me of the advice given to trial lawyers in custody cases:
If the facts are against you, pound on the law.
If the law is against you, pound on the facts.
If they are both against you, pound on the best interests.
If that is also against you, pound on the table.
“If the facts are against you, pound on the law.
If the law is against you, pound on the facts.
If they are both against you, pound on the best interests.
If that is also against you, pound on the table”
In all of our cases it’s the 1st two and the 3rd is
If you have the Law and the Facts hammer both, and so far we have always had all of one and most if not all of the other. I guess we never needed to pound the table yet and hopefully, never will.
Arthur Kinoy told me that if you get physically removed from a hearing, do so loudly in support of your client.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Kinoy
In 1966, Kinoy was removed from a hearing of the House Committee on Un-American Activities and subsequently convicted of disorderly conduct. In 1968, the U.S. Court of Appeals overturned the conviction.
Malisha, some who did not consider themselves experts turned out to be experts. My Dad was a physician-surgeon who practiced general medicine, general surgery, and trauma-surgery. The hospital where he was on staff had a women physician who most of the staff called the “Hen Medic”. Dad’s sidekick in surgery would tell Dad this woman was a “Nutcase”. Dad, being very laid back ignored all the comments about this women. That was until one morning at his office he received a phone call from a funeral director who was a patient of his. The funeral director requested that he come to the funeral home and inspect the body of the daughter-in-law of the “Hen Medic”. The funeral director stated that the “Hen Medic” had already signed the daughter-in-law out as complications of chloroform during a pelvic exam. Dad stated that this was one of the problems of using chloroform which was why he did not use it. The funeral director explained that the body had a bandage on her back. Dad inquired like a bandaid, Funeral director, No Doctor like I had when you performed my appendectomy. Dad finished the patient he was with, stated he was called to the hospital, and left for the funeral home. Upon examing the body he found the bandage whitch a surgeon would apply. He removed the bandage to find sutures which a surgeon would apply. He then ordered the funeral director to call the coroner. The coroner arrived and observed the sutures. The coronor ordered Dad to remove the sutures which he did placing them in the surgical tray. Dad asked the funeral director for a pair of long forcepts which he provided. Dad used the forcepts to probe the wound and declared it to be a gunshot wound. The body was taken back to the hospital where an autopsy was performed that night. The results were that the uterus was severally torn up, the bullet struck a bone and ricocheted and exited the wound in the back. What was determined was the the “Hen Medic” did not like the daughter-in-law and felf her son deserved better. What was even more astonishing was that she was not satisfied that she had killed her by overdosing her with chloroform, but, had to make sure by inserting a pistol in her vagina and pulling the trigger. Those involved in the autopsy concluded the the “Hen Medic” felt the bullet would be slowed down by the soft internal tissue and would never exit the body. Had the bullet not hit the bone, this case would have never been solved. The “Hen Medic” was convicted, sentenced to prison, and had her Medical License Revoked, and Shreded.
Wow, William Walton, that sounds like a made-for-TV movie! Fact is indeed stranger than fiction!
follow
Llmpapa, that’s what I thought yesterday when reading here. Fogen grabbed onto the hoodie , his DNA is there. If Trayvon is bending over fogen, there wouldn’t be any or maybe just a little DNA,, less than if he is grabbing the hoodie. Right?
I’m starting to think Fogen pulled the hood of the hoodie so that Trayvon couldn’t see properly– this could explain both how Fogen was able to grab Trayvon at all and keep him from running, and also how Fogen got a drip of blood onto Trayvon’s inner shirt (because the inner shirt was exposed with the outer hoodie pulled up).
THere must be a more detailed color photo of this poor boy taken by Fogen’s friend and neighbor.
Someone posted earlier (on the previous thread, I think) the link to O’Mara’s request for subpoenas of all audio recordings of Trayvon’s voice over the past three years. Did anyone post a link to his similar demand of the Martin family members yet? If not, here it is:
http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/0213/subpeonas_dt_martins_fultons.pdf
How & where in the hell will he get something like that. That’s just plain crazy, another stalling tactic. Surely he jest. People don’t even leave outgoing greetings on there cell phones voice mail anymore they just use the per recorded message. I have a teenage daughter she have never left me a voice mail on my phone ever, she hangs up if I don’t answer, and text me what she wanted to say.
My brother has a phone that records messages — and they automatically get wiped after 10 days. I don’ see Voice Mail services holding anything for 3 years, and of course especially not if the person leaves hat provider. If.
I will be very interested to see the judge’s response to these requests. They strike me as being overly broad if what they are going for is a sample to use in voice recognition. But I also still don’t see how these can possibly help Z.’s case. I seriously doubt that they can locate an expert willing to swear that the screams absolutely did NOT come from the same person as any voice sample provided. It would seem as though they would be evaluating for the certainty of a match. Lack of certainty could mean just about anything.
It looks to me like unnecessary harassment.
O’Mara needs to find out if there is a voice exemplar of Trayvon so that a voice identification analyst can get on the stand and say absolutely, “This scream of terror was Trayvon Martin’s last word alive,” because once O’Mara realizes that can happen in that courtroom, all bets are off and his client HAS TO PLEAD. Since the only way to find out if they have located an exemplar of Trayvon’s voice is to subpoena ALL recordings of his voice, that’s the request we see from O’Mara. But I think the i.d. of Strayvon’s scream is part of the rebuttal case so I don’t think it’s really discoverable until there is a legal showing of “self-defense.”
I don’t mean to offend, but why do we support the gzlegalcase website by paying attention to it and do their bidding by sharing it’s new ‘news’.
That’s what they put it there for, and we do their bidding. So do regular new stations, OS has the latest motion up now. The defense is doing the ‘feeding’, maybe we should wait and get it from non defense cahnnels>
I don’t think that anyone here is “supporting” the gzlegalcase website. We’re just looking to see what they’re up to, not to do anyone’s bidding. Most of us can recognize bullshit when we see it.
Agree, don’t think anyone is supporting it, but still we are doing what the defense wants, to pay attention to their site and its offerings, and share.
They are making things public for a reason (unless we believe MOM at the last hearing saying it really isn’t necessary with a momentary sly smile towards the camera).
I suppose the fact that we are talking about ‘his’ client and case, is suiting their needs of keeping everything up front. He is using the media, but will he use it to the level of success as happened with the last big case.
Last google search for the case fpr the subject videos (was looking for the Sunday channel 6 tv Flashpoint, every thumbnail had juniors face until it reached a Fox news and MOM video. They are able to get their links up front and center for searches.
Is this media push, trying the case in the media, going to work again?
“I suppose the fact that we are talking about ‘his’ client and case…”
Yes we do talk about his client and case, and the forensics, the DNA, his lies, his families lies, Taaffe’s racist comments, Ostermans crap, SheLie’s lying, the witnesses, his motive, his utter failures in life, Fogens racist comments, his NEN call, all the videos that are made that destroy his story and a lot of other things.
Supporting his website……..ehhhh, not so much.
I already know Junior and Fogenhats’ KKKlan plot
they are trying to taint the jury, place a false image in their minds, so he does not have to take the stand
Jun, notice junior has kept his goatee and stach, while his brother lost that, but morphed his hair style through the subtle Mohawk to mirror junior?
Junior’s been the public face of the defendant, and will be interesting to see if the goatee comes back to the defense table for trial.
Dave…You’re right. It’s insight into how they’re thinking and what they’re thinking. I know that the outhousers do the same thing. They come over here (and other “justice for Trayvon sites”), read, and then go back to the outhouse and report.
The Conservative Tinfoil Hat stalking us? I am shocked LOL
@ay2z, Just fyi: that jazzy do fogen wore before Judge Nelson is officially known as a “faux hawk.” Everything about him is faux, so why not his hair style?
I mentioned the semi mohawk on the 5th. Pretty stupid looking I’d say. “Chief FogenPhoole” maybe ??
Yep, and ShelLie practicing her cosmetology skills.
Fogen can’t go out for a ‘real’ haircut with all the death threats, ya know!
Oh come on now, I’m sure the guys down the road a bit at “The Afro Artiste” will give him a haircut.
ay2z, in order to refute their lies, we have to discuss them.
Keep your enemy closest to you, remember that saying? Then you know him, understand his modus operandi and well equipped to pour sand into the engine that drives him. That way you bring him to a crashing halt.
“If you KNOW yourself, and KNOW your enemy….You shall be victorious in 100 battles”
Sun Tzu “The Art of War”
pat….It is amazing how long ago that was written and how timeless it has remained.
“well equipped to pour sand into the engine that drives him. That way you bring him to a crashing halt.”
Okay………if you do that, give him my phone number that way we both win !! Cuz engines is what I doooooooooooooo !
I think the blank disc motion is so pointless. Even without the motion, the state is doing everything formal and providing a paper trail for everything handed over. I also believe they did not bother looking through the DVD. I remember at the last hearing Omara claimed to not get certain paperwork, and then Bernie got up, went through his paperwork and found the certain piece of paperwork for him. Fogenhats is just playing games. He prolly wrote the motion. If they claim it is blank, the state would prolly offer to burn the disc right in front of them and test it and then give it to them and then have everything initialed. Also at the last hearing and motions they claimed the state never gave them the cellphone analysis info, although they got give discs with info and were even offered to go to the place where the forensics on the cellphone were being done.
The DVD’s aren’t blank….FogenPhoole hid the remote.
LOL I think it is just him trying to stall again and then he will get denied again and the state will double check the disc, and make sure it is the same disc that they gave them, and then do what i stated above
He probably put the in his Beta Machine.
Yep, the same one as last time that wouldn’t play the blank tape, IIRC.
I believe you recall correctly !! Games…nothing but games.
I also do not get how Omara is supposed to present Fogenhats without him taking the stand
It is not like the state will not be able to prove that Fogenhats is the guy that did it LOL
There’s nothing within the evidence that proves Fogenhats was attacked… pretty much only Fogenhats claimed he was attacked
w6? I think if he wants to not get indicted on perjury and false statements to police, he will stick with his story because it can be proven his retracted statement was a lie, but it looks like he took the high road and retracted his statement, which is a defense to perjury. As well, w6 does not prove Fogenhats was attacked, even if he did not retract his statement. w1, w2, w8, w18, all point to the defendant as the aggressor.
Nope, no proof of attack. Proof of a fight perhaps, and yes he had some minor injuries, but they don’t match up with his story and he refused to go to the hospital. Anyone being wacked on the head like he “said” he was should certainly have it checked out. But nooooooo. Then there might jave been official documentation that his injuries did not match his narrative (as well, they might have wanted to run a tox screen on him).
And just think, if you just killed someone and you are claiming self defense wouldn’t you want all the documentation you could get to prove that you were seriously injured. He had to know that he was going to need this to prove his innocence. He was hiding something that night we all known it and I bet whoever he talked to that night advised him not to go to the hospital. There is a picture of him on the phone while a witness took the bloody back of the head picture if i’m not mistaken.
You are not mistaken, but I think he was talking to John (W6) to get their stories worked out so that John supported the defendant’s claim that Trayvon was on top straddling him and raining down blows to his face MMA style.
I don’t think he needed anyone to tell him to refuse to go to the ER because, with the exception of the medic who briefly treated him at the scene, he was the only person who knew how he got those wounds and how trivial they were.
@Tee:
I have been saying this since day one! ! Being a Nurse, I found it odd that a man who claims he had his head bashed against the concrete ground only sustained such “minor” injuries. Most of the pts. that I have taken care of in the past, sustain more severe head trauma which require care in a rehabilitation, learning how to walk, talk, eat and do other ADL skills. I also found it odd that a man who was brutally beaten wouldn’t want to have as much medical documentation from a Specilist or would REFUSE to even see a Specialist! WHY? Why was he not complaining of neck and back pain. Why was their no abrasions on the lower back of his head? If ones nose is broken, why would he refuse to see an ENT Specialist and take their advice and have X-ray done, and a Ct. Scan of his head? Everytime I bring this up on the HP, I get absolutely no answers from the Zimmerman family and brigade. They cannot refute what I say, and they know that I am RIGHT! Fogen did not want to have a Medical Doctor assess or evaluate his minor injuries. Even his own PA documented that he suffered no trauma and had a “possible broken nose” but it cannot be documented because he did not have X-rays taken, no Ct. Scans, nor did he have an MRI.
It’s a FogenPhoolePhantasy that his head was bashed. If it was, there would be very little skin left on the back of his head. Any of us that ever did a header off of a bike can recall what the knees looked like.
Fogen is so utterly stupid, he has expound on everything to the point of ridiculousness. If he had said he slammed me to the ground with a flying tackle and I whacked my head so hard I blacked out for a second, that’s far more believable than his detail of lies. I was so disoriented I had no choice….
There’s no forensic trace at all whatsoever that the victim caused anything at all on Fogenhats
@Jun:
Can you please tell me why we call GZ “FOGENHATS?” I have been calling him Fogen, because everyone else has been but I have no idea why I started doing that! I call him a lot of other names too, but why does this man call himself “Fogenhats?” Also, I will be watching ID Discovery tonight on my cable in NYC.
A lot of people have their own spin on Fogen. I came up with FogenPhoole…..because that’s what he is.
FogenPhoolesPhamily is in FogenPhantasy land
He and his supporters are “Zimbies” here…..no different than Zombies…..always in search of brains………
I coined the term “Zidiots” from the “Zidiot Nation” and there is no cure.
Professor….I believe you’re correct. If fogen was on the phone talking to John (W6), wouldn’t that be on his phone records? If he had been seriously hurt, wouldn’t it have seemed strange that he made a call to a “neighbor” and not his wife…..and instead had someone else call her? If his nose had been broken as badly as he says, why would he have been “casually” talking to a “neighbor”…one would think that all that bleeding and breakage would have made a phone conversation difficult…LOL
In the picture that looks photoshopped
In all honesty, his nose does not look broken or bleeding, it looks like he rubbed blood onto it till it dried, hanging off the tip
Also on scene, Fogenhats was the only party with blood on his hands and his wuss scratches had already healed and were drying by the time EMT arrived, in which he then told lies and avoided having being looked at by an expert
@ Professor
“You are not mistaken, but I think he was talking to John (W6) to get their stories worked out so that John supported the defendant’s claim that Trayvon was on top straddling him and raining down blows to his face MMA style”
That would indeed be a huge dynamite (if phone records show communication between the two right after the murder). I would not be surprised if that John has already lawyered up.
Jun……I’ve said it before on another post…..if he didn’t get those facial scratches running into a tree, I believe he created them himself. 1) Using his fingernails, reaching to the back of his head and digging into his scalp pulling his hands forward.
2) Using his right hand and scratching his face with his nails from the upper left-hand side, diagonally down to the bottom right-hand side of his face. 3) Scratched the inside of his nose with his fingernail to make it bleed. That’s why he didn’t want to go to the hospital..they would have known what actually caused the bleeding. He was also seen rubbing his hands on his face after he got up and walked away…..One might think that he was spreading the blood to make it look serious.
Thinking about what happened immediately after the murder. It seems as though Z. made a phone call, and rather cooly asked someone else to take pix and call Shellie to tell her that he shot someone. Shellie was then in contact with Osterman who took her to the scene.
IF Z. left the house (following the mythical mentoring session) to go to Target for groceries, all of the above strikes me as being incredibly cool. If my wife thought I was at Target and I was being put in a cruiser a couple blocks from home, wouldn’t I want her to have just a few details? And why would O. take Shellie to the scene rather than straight to SPD?
All fits in with ongoing questions I have had with their immediately leaving their house. All of the national outcry didn’t start up until days/weeks later. And Z. was walking around thinking that this was all going to blow over.
Since the defendant didn’t have any money in his pocket, I doubt his going for groceries story. Although, in some states, food stamps money is on a credit-type card, but there has been no indication that they rec’d food stamps.
There’s also the problem of GZ having to show that the attack he claims he suffered, was reasonably believed to be deadly, and not just claimed to be deadly, there is a big difference.
Someone pounding on you with their bare hands and no combat training at all, is hardly going to be what jurors will believe is a “reasonably deadly attack”. As a general rule, fist fights, so rarely result in deaths, or even serious injury, they aren’t even prohibited by very serious sanctions at law.
Think about it. I you attack someone with your bare hands and/or fists, you are not charged with attempted murder, as you would be if you used a knife, a gun or other weapon.
GZ is trying to push the idea that Trayvon’s bare hands were deadly. Does anyone think that an unarmed Trayvon, if attacking anyone with only his bare hands or fists, would be charged with attempted murder by a officer who came to the scene? The desk Sargent or other duty officer would approve such a charge? A prosecutor would think it’s a serious matter, enough that a judge will be impressed? Or, would they tell the officer to dial it back?
All the motions,is it really good to annoy the judge asking for more and more on the same subject when her answer has been ‘take her deposition!’. MOM even interrupted her rudely a couple times in the last hearing, talked over her.
She will probably lose her temper because he is so annoying, then he will cry she is biased and he wants a new judge.
about the 3 years of voice recordings, what good will that do unless you can bring them in via an ‘expert’ witness?
Thought I heard that jurors in Florida are not allowed to do any investigation/testing themselves, and if the defense were to offer various recrdings of Trayvon, the jury would be asked to compare and decide who they sound like most? How could those recordings be evidence for this use?
That would be like asking the jury to smell the contents of the paint cans for decomp and deciding if it was decomp in the Caylee case.
@ay2z. I’m pretty sure that DeeDee has not had the same cell phone for 3 yrs, neither maintained voice mails that far back. Since the treehouse has attempted doxing her, I seriously doubt that she has the same phone number since GZ killed Trayvon. I know that some stuff can be backed up and restored on cell phones, but if O’Mara wants voice mail from 3 yrs ago, he might have to get it from the cell phone company — IF DeeDee had a cell phone 3 yrs ago.
Can you imagine how long it would take to listen to three years’ worth of DeeDee’s phone conversations? Sheesh! Last February 26 she was on the phone all day with Trayvon! I wonder if that’s typical for her. No disrespect meant to the young lady, but she obviously likes to talk.
HA! Dave, sounds like you never been in love before. I remember being on the phone with someone in Israel for ±3hrs for several week. Hours read like minutes. Minutes read like seconds.
@ SM WOW, you must have really been in LOVE! lol
@Dave:
LOL! Dave. Remember when you were that age and talking on the phone to your significant other? I remember being on the phone with my boyfriend all day long. We would hang up, then he would call me back, hang up again and then I would call him back. My mom of course, thought I was crazy! Oh those were the days. We would be just talking about the basketball game, the football game, going to a party in Brooklyn, the school dance…..just everything under the sun! No worries back in those days……….for one day! LOL!
Over on the TreeStump they’re now saying DeeDee is a composite person, completely fictional.
@lady2soothe
It’s called a false accusation to bait — flush her out. They want to make contact with DeeDee to intimidate and demean her. They would like to place her in harm’s way by releasing her personal information.
I agree completely… Have been wondering, because Trayvon was in high school and a sweet kid who probably had many friends, just how it’s been managed to keep the real DeeDee safe and invisible.
Awhile back I saw some of Trayvon’s friends on FB, their addresses were published on the TreeStump with the preverbal hate speech & racists rants. I wrote to them and suggested they black their FB pages from anyone they didn’t know. Never went back and checked and never received a reply.
@lady2soothe. Most Zidiots are instigators. They get info and hope by releasing it, that some insane person will cause harm while they sit back and wait to hear about it.
@ Xena…. Of course, you should have seen the weird noises coming out of HP the other day and now the BS and backtracking in the last hour or so with DENIED. Well just put it this way, if it wasn’t so pathetic it would be comical.
@lady2soothe
Their playbook is always the same. Propaganda — release documents via Twitter before they are filed with the court. This gives the Zidiots opportunity to build false hypothesis around their ignorance of legal procedures and try fear tactics.
After the court denies the Feign Team’s motions, silence or rants about it being railroading.
Then demean the victim, his family, attorney Crump, President Obama, and pro-justice for Trayvon supporters.
Oh — and use dog whistles — lots of dog whistles such as “savage,” “Obama’s sons,” “apes,” and “Traycoon.”
Some of their posts are so filthy I want to cry. I know what it’s like to lose a child, the pain is so deep you can hardly swallow. I pray the Martin/Fulton Family never sees the vile comments these hateful people write (I use *people* loosly).
My (grown) children have been racially profiled, as have I for being with them and it’s no joke. But to hear/read the sickness is almost unbearable.
@lady2soothe:
OMG. I didn’t know you had lost one of your childrem! My heart goes out to you. I cannot even imagine the pain of losing a child. I will keep you in my prayers and ask God to hold you and give you strength to make it.
To think that Tray’s parents had to not only put up with a poor piss investigation of their son’s murder, but to learn that it was being covered up, and then to have to fight for justice for their son, and then now to have to read their son’s reputation and character being smeared??? I am appallled. The racist comments from the Nuthouse is something that I don’t read and it is something that I as a black woman do not entertain. I know that racist bigoted people exist and will never go away. Their denial of the facts is why they spew their racist vitriol. We know that racists never win and that is why we must continue to fight them. I don’t give credence to any of their vitriol racist garbage. It is to be expected from uneducated, ignorant hillbilly’s.
@ Deborah G… Thank you
I have 3 sons and 2 daughters all of mixed decent (Metizo and Black). 1993 my middle son was killed in a rollover Dec. 9th just 2 weeks before his 17th birthday (He was a Christmas day baby). My youngest son shares Trayvon and birthday (he turned 30 Feb. 5th) was shot twice while being robbed but for the grace of God, he survived and I do not have to suffer what Sybrina had endure (no one was ever arrested). I know what it feels like to get *that call*, twice no less, so I have enormous compassion for the Martin/Fulton Family.
I don’t go in for the tit for tat fighting on HP or elsewhere because ultimately I can’t win with the bigots and racists. Their minds are infected with hatred no antibiotic will cure. I just know God will punish those who spread their evil. Meanwhile we will continue to fight for Justice for Trayvon and the forgotten.
Emmit Till (1955)
George Stiney (1944)
Roy Belton (1920)
Big Nose George (1881)
Will Brown (1919)
Cordie Cheek (1933)
Joe Coe (1891)
Anthony Crawford (1916)
Pancho Daniel (1858)
Michael Donald (1981)
Wesley Everest (1919)
Leo Frank (1915)
Raymond Gunn (1931)
John Wesley Heath (1884)
Sam Hose (1899)
Ed Johnson (1906)
Frank Little (1917)
Steve Long (1868)
Francis McIntosh (1836)
Jim Miller (1909)
Laura and L.D. Nelson (1911)
Mack Charles Parker (1959)
George Parrott (1881)
Ell Persons (1917)
Henry Plummer (1864)
Robert Prager (1918)
Thomas Shipp and Abram Smith (1930)
Bill Sketoe (1864)
Henry Smith (1893)
Hyrum Smith (1844)
Joseph Smith (1844)
Lamar Smith (1955)
Joseph Standing (1879)
Emmett Till (1955)
Mary Turner (1918)
Jesse Washington (1916)
Ellen Watson (1889)
Eliza Woods (1886)
“…a composite person, ..” what, are her ears white…her eyes are Asian ?? Dare I say it….”The Mrs. Potato Head Defense”
Hummm, now don’t give MO’M and ideas, you know something like the Potato Head Defense he could certainly run, and run hard with!
Oh, I’m sure we haven’t seen the last of bizarre from O’ Maggot.
Must you always make me choke on laughter?
My most humble apology, but that’s who I am and that’s what I do.
Drives the Zidiuot’s NutZZ !!
I’ve decided to compose myself, take a couple of deep breaths,swallow a couple of times, turn my head slightly away from my keyboard when drinking coffee and be prepared to laugh before I open any more mail from you!
See, there’s a solution to everything!!!
*facepalm*
“Thought I heard that jurors in Florida are not allowed to do any investigation/testing themselves, and if the defense were to offer various recrdings of Trayvon, the jury would be asked to compare and decide who they sound like most? How could those recordings be evidence for this use? ”
ay2z,
I’m pretty sure that it is the case in ALL states that jurors are not allowed to do their own investigation/testing. Their verdict is supposed to be based on what is presented in court, not on anything that they learned anywhere else.
Zena, yeah. Can they even share, whatever they get from any source, with the jury and ask the jury to make the comparisons as evidence that it sounds like the screams anyway?
If that’s their purpose of course.
Speaking of voice recordings, anyone notice that the defendant said “… everytime he hit me in the nose I thought my head was going to explode.” ?
Thought it was the head slamming that caused the head exploding sensations.
The defense wanting the voice recordings– they can hold trial in the public court before trial, by sharing the voice recordings that they may get, and ask the public with jury pool to compare and decide.
I just think O’Mara is worried that a real voice expert can positively identify Trayvon’s voice.
‘…worried…”
I’m worried that dinner won’t turn out just quite right.
I’m worried about my sons test today.
I’m worried that his band won’t play that well at the talent show.
I’m worried about that #6 cyl intake valve spring making 2 more rounds without breaking
I think O’ Mara has a problem with his bowels and his stomach, not to mention that lack of sleep problem.
I think he’s well past “…worried..” at this point.
IMHO, I think O’Mara’s most worried about stringing the paying supporters along long enough to get paid. By now he knows for certain that his client is guilty as sin.
He claims he took several hits to his nose and yet where is all the blood from these repeated hits? Cast off should have been present on TM’s outer clothing.
@ay2z
The job of defense and prosecution is to convince the jury whose voice is screaming based on evidence. The State will have the enhanced tape that captured GZ in the background cursing at Trayvon while the screaming is also heard. Also;
1. The screams stop with the gun shot. Yet, GZ says that Trayvon continued to move and talk. If that is true, then GZ should have continued yelling for help since he also said that he yelled for help to get someone to restrain Trayvon.
2. GZ said that Trayvon was smothering him, but the tape does not evidence a pause between the screams sufficient to substantiate smothering.
3. There are words heard on the tape, such as “I’m begging you” and “No” yet GZ says he only yelled “help” and “help me.”
thanks
Wonder if they found an audio expert already this week,, and that is who suggests getting the last 3 years audio.
Judge Nelson will likely repeat “you can take her deposition and ask her yourself first if she even has any audio recordings”. Don’t they listen, or are they just wanting to fill their website with motions? Or are they pushing Judge Nelson to say or do something that will cause them to ask for a recusal (again, maybe judge No. 4 will be lucky)
@ay2z
That’s a problem, because those motions are not on their website. They are not on the circuit court’s website, neither on the docket sheet for the clerk of the court’s website. They might come up yet but thus far, they are only available through Twitter with the hash tag for Zimmerman.
@Xena – Someone upthread pointed out that these motions (and more are stored on a web server (link below). Interestingly, the “parent directory” for the page (is it an ftp page?) is the legal defense FUND website – not the legal website.
http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/0213/
Well spotted, Groans.
colin black says:
February 12, 2013 at 9:24 pm
This is how it goes down.
After a night confab with Oysterman a brainstorm.
Foggen realises his story of the kid being the aggresor an he the heroic surviver is going to work.
Just a couple of tweaks here an there.
Cops seemed concerned as to this unarmed kids with juice an skittles would decide to attack me.
Sleeps on it an by the reconstruction next day has deceided to push.
The hey this guy was a punk thug scenario itching for to beat down my ass.
Sure he ran but he walked right back an circled my truck twice taunting me an hey.
A probably even told the dispatch that.
So foggen thinks he is planting the seeds of an agresive bang ganging type dude.
Totally forgeting that the recorded non emergancy call
Utterly refutes that lie.
How could Trayvon come back circle his car twice with him sat inside.
We here him say shit he s running an exit his truck to run after him.
So how an when was Trayvon able to circle him .
Ah details details dont matter makes the kid sound dangerous an its a good kill anyway .
This will bllow over in a couple of days.
Colin: I agree that I believe he made up that story, it doesn’t jive with the timeline nor with how he describes the unfolding events on the NEN. But, he also tells Singleton that first night about TM circling his vehicle so his mind was in motion already to come up with a supporting story.
Can I say crazy again.Cell Phone companies are right now in battle with state police & congress about keeping text messages retained for two years and the police are fighting a loosing battle right now. Cell phone companies keep text messages about 5 days & voice mails about 30 days. You only can see that a text or a voice mail was sent form a number and received at what time nothing more, they argue that it is to costly to retain more data than that. In order for Trayvon’s voice to still exist on a phone recording it as to be saved by the owner of that phone before it reaches thirty days old or it is deleted by the service provider, or it as to exist on an old fashion answering machine.
I have texts on my phone that are older than 5 days, are you sure about that?
It probably depends on the carrier and the actual phone.
Me too. O have texts older than 5 months even.
Yes i am very sure. You have them but the phone company purge theirs they don’t keep them. Like tweeter, once you delete your account its like you never existed the information is purged after 30 day.
It depends
On my phone, the text messages are saved onto the internal memory
However, voice messages are on the provider’s data reach, and they generally delete your voicemails after 10 days or so
Mine only saves a finite number of texts, and I don’t text that much. Kids text more than they talk.
West still want to depose with Attorney Crump.
http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/0213/motion_deposition_crump.pdf
Somehow I think that one might tick off Judge Nelson a bit.
If not, it should, imo, I mean, isn’t the defense really crossing the line on that one to keep pressing the issue, with his attorney/client privilege with the Martin family? Give it up already, Crump answered basically everything in his affidavit, it is just waste of time and another stall tactic by the defense.
On the motion regarding deposition of Crump, West claims it “was arranged over a period of several weeks”. I see the notice of deposition and it’s dated the 4th and filed the 6th. Alot of their notices are filed after the depostion has taken place (or in this case NOT taken place). Is this normal? I’m not legal smart by no means. This is why I leave the comments up to those more qualified.
The Defence has stated that the deposition paperwork would be posted on the website AFTER that deposition was taken.
@ seallison
http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/Notice%20of%20Taking%20Deposition%202%206%202013.pdf
But this deposition wasn’t taken. It was dated the 4th and then filed on the 6th of Feb.. The day AFTER Judge Nelson said it would be postponed until after she read the affidavit.
that’s ok, Crump has a good lawyer
Will be interesting to see how Judge “I’m tell you for the third time” Nelson rules. Crump’s 15-pager submitted by Blackwell was quite detailed. What more could MOM and West want? … Doubt that they know themselves.
@Trained Observer
Because the treeslummers say that Attorney Crump is a liar, the Feign Team wants to catch attorney Crump in a lie. Rather than deposing him, they want to interrogate them. His affidavit avoids that because Judge Nelson is keeping Crump’s presence in the case as a “court witness” for the limited purpose of providing information about his interview of Witness 8.
Trained Observer-
I didn’t see your response before my post…
You said it much better than I did! lol
I read the motion and two things stood out:
1. Mr. West did not address whether or not the affidavit provided by Mr. Crump answers the relevant questions that need(ed) to answered and, depending on the answer to that question, why deposing Mr. Crump is (still) necessary/relevant.
2. No law obliges any citizen who is not listed as a witness to submit to deposition (and the Professor may correct me if I am wrong on this one).
3. Mr. West asserts that the defense may depose Mr. Crump without leave of Court. Judge Nelsen may as well tell Mr. West, ‘well you do not need leave of Court to depose Mr. Crump. I therefor revoke the Order making Mr. Crump a witness. Do as you will and depose whomever you want. But do not come back to this Court with a Motion to compel Mr. Crump to submit to deposition’ – if he refuses to appear for deposition.
Nelson also made it clear that IF she allowed the deposition, West would not have free reign. As we can see in the motion, West is not specific as to what he would like to ask Crump and he is looking for free reign. IMO, Nelson will deny this motion, as she should.
I agree with you. Ultimately Mr. West would have to answer questions as to why (a) he still wants to depose Mr. Crump and (b) Mr. Crump’s affidavit does not answer the questions for which the judge made him a witness.
Questions regarding issues other than the tape of Crump’s interview with DeeDee fall outside the scope of the Order making Crump a witness. Mr. West would have to file a Motion to make Crump a witness with regard to those other issues. I think he may have to learn the hard way that he indeed does need Leave of Court to depose Mr. Crump.
that was a very cogent analysis but the way I see it….
OMG OMG WHAT DOES CRUMP HAVE TO HIDE??????!!!!
SEE GEORGE IS BEING RAILROADED BY THE BLACK MAFIA AND THEIR LEADER, THAT SOCIALIST KENYAN OBAMA!!!
OMG OMG!!!!
Railroaded ?? !! ?? What Station ?? What Track Number ??
It must be Track 69 at the BullShit Station.
OMG OMG
You are are part of the conspiracy too!!!!!!
I knew it!!!!!!
Nothing spells “Ignorant” more than when a Zidiot says FogenPhoole is being “…railroaded…” I just love it.
Like Crump ever heard of this nimrod before. Did Corey have a
“….Railroad a Racist Today..” Lottery going and PhuckingFogenPhooles name came up ??
I got their Railroading……….right here…….as the I-talians say
Fa get about it…
“I’ll take railroaded racists for $5,000.00 Alex”
And that’s the Daily Double !!
DERAILED
fu*k denied
Trouble ahead….trouble behind
FogenPhoole you better watch your head
To the tune of “Casey Jones”
Race…..how about
“High and deranged……drivin’ that train”
Take it
It’s not that hard now is it. That’s a great line. I think I’ll go there.
I just did a Fogen rewrite to Runaround Sue….sing along.
Trains?…….Railroad?………I think the Prof might enjoy this….Deadhead that he is…….
JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON
About 4 months ago I did a lyric rewrite about Fogen to “Truckin” by the “Grateful Dead” It turns out the Professor is a big fan of the Dead !!
So I’ve heard
Definition: To railroad someone (v) — To charge them with murder just because they killed someone after expressing ill will. To fail to drop the charges even after learning that they sustained a few scrapes while killing. To still fail to drop the charges even after they learn it was all god’s plan.
A textbook Railroading……straight from the BullStreet Outhouse Station.
Oh gee Malisha, there was plenty of room at the top of this post to warn us to set down our coffee! Wiping the screen and drying the keyboard is becoming quite tiresome.
“gods” a Railroad Engineer?
“I’ll take “Steam or Diesel Electric Locomotives” for $5,000 Alex”
Sounds like another fishing expedition. They want to find anything they can to get witness 8 testimony thrown out because they know she completely contradicts what GZ is saying. She has no reason to lie. GZ does; And like Malisha pointed out, there was another witness that testified that she also heard GZ say “what are you doing around here?” GZ never mentioned any other words stated between he and Trayvon other than the “you gotta problem?” exchange. They have to get rid of her or else he is toast (with butter, jam and all the condiments!)
@ racerrodig, T mobile 30 day, sprint 30, Verizon 21, & AT&T 14 for saved voice mails. Txt messages Verizon 3-5 days, AT&T only keeps tracking data 5-7yrs & sent & received but not the actual text so does T mobile, Sprint 90. On text. We can store on our phones as long as you like but the carries don’t retain that information. Trust me when I say I researched this. I have a teen daughter & wanted to keep close tabs so I checked around for who retain there voice & text messages & for how long.
I suspect the companies made have made some changes since the whole Mayor Kilpatrick sext message scandal that brought him down. The state was able to get many thousands of text messages, from the city’s carrier (he was using official city cell phones). When the feds got in, it jumped to tens of thousands, to and from everyone who was involved. There were so many texts that the court had two magistrates whose sole responsibility was to go through the tens of thousands of texts and find the relevant texts and/or any that were indicative of illegal behavior. The former Mayor promptly filed suit against the carrier. I’m speculating the carriers figured if they don’t save them, they can’t be subpoenaed, and then sued.
That’s the tactic used by librarians after the PATRIOT act said that the feds could get at library records and the librarians couldn’t tell anyone that the feds were in. Now my library can only tell me what I last checked out. They will keep more information if I request it. I complimented them on their policy, I like it just fine.
I love librarians!
@ Tee
You mentioned having a teen and wanting to keep close tabs on them. That made me think about protective parents and how some use cell tracking programs. This is what I’m talking about.
http://business.time.com/2012/09/14/should-you-use-your-smartphone-to-track-your-kids/
My child is grown so I’m not up on the latest technology.
Do you think Trayvon’s parents used something like this? He seemed protected from the world. Slightly sheltered or “a momma’s boy” as witness 8 called him. I mean, he didn’t have a license at 17. You can get your learner’s permit at 15 in Florida.
Maybe this is what helped with the GPS from Trayvon’s cell. It could be pings or apps or whatever that tracks you but, maybe they simply tracked their teen.
We have 3 phones with Verizon. Text messages stay on the phone and not in their system and VM’s for I believe it is21 days and they tell you that when you get your VM’s The VM’s are in their system only and texts in the phone only.
LLMPapa has a new video up.
Yes, LLMPapa … 12 experts who will know a trapped, petrified teenage boy when they hear one.
IIRC, I think it is only six jurors for Fogen’s case.
Someone correct me if I am wrong.
Florida Rules of Criminal Procedure Rule 3.270 states: “Twelve persons shall constitute a jury to try all capital cases, and 6 persons shall constitute a jury to try all other criminal cases.”
I thought it was weird because I thought it was always 12 jurors.
So, unless the above is incorrect, Fogen will only have 6 jurors.
So, I’m either going to get a passing grade or I’m flunking, Professor?
Okay, is murder not capital?
I believe death penalty (1st Degree Murder) is capital murder in Florida, IIRC. I think I learned two things here!
Actually more, (Thank you, Professor), just don’t quiz me, because I am totally lost on the admissability of evidence, that I will flunk, guaranteed!
Professors Article on Jury Selection:
(Snipped)
I was inspired by Xena to write this article today to warn the prosecution and all of my readers to take the defense seriously in the Travon Martin murder case
She said,
“In GZ’s case, O’Mara would need 6 jurors and the required number of alternates, ALL who believe in GZ’s innocence before they are sworn in as jurors. Nullification in GZ’s case would require all six jurors to find him innocent. That— ain’t — gonna— happen.”
I hope you are right, Xena, but I am not certain that you are.
I prefer to evaluate the case in terms of potential strategies and probable outcomes. I am compulsive by nature and always evaluated my cases in this fashion. There is no downside to being prepared.
http://frederickleatherman.com/category/jury-selection/
Ok, I must be somewhat compulsive as well. I knew I read only 6 jurors somewhere…Which is really strange to me, because until this case, I thought every jury was made up of 12 jurors.
Very interesting though, and another thing I wonder is if these numbers vary from state to state, and for criminal/civil cases.
I guess I will save that one for tomorrow. Goodnight everyone!
6 jurors in Florida.
I’m aware of Florida 3.270. There’s a reason I included the word “likely” in the closing part of the video:
It’s my understanding, and perhaps the Professor could weigh in on the validity, in Florida a defendant can file a Motion requesting a trial by a 12 member jury, instead of 6, in a non-capital criminal case.
Since a hung jury only requires the dissenting vote of ONE, it would seem LIKELY this defense would prefer a 12 member jury of possible candidates versus 6. If this is option is, in fact available, I would expect to see a Motion in this regard filed prior to trial.
Whether the jury is seated with 6, 12, or 112, the point of my short video comment is the same. With Zimmerman’s exemplar, I don’t believe they will have ANY problem recognizing whose screams those are NOT.
This does not have to be left to guesswork. With an exemplar of Trayvon’s voice, a certified expert can run some voice recognition forensic tests and come up with something, even if it is not always 100% firm. The point is that at this point in time, with identification of voices NOT forming part of the evidence that is needed to prove murder, this would only come to play if and after Fogen claimed to have been the one screaming. THEN we would hear from experts.
Daddy is not an expert. Even daddy-magistrate-veteran is not an expert. Daddy is just a lucky guy who managed to have a baby boy who grew up to…oh well, Daddy’s just some guy.
Anyone have a link? Please and thank you!
kimmi — six for civil in Florida, 12 for murder 2.
hey kimmi..
–luke davis posted this over @ JQ when the same ? came up.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0900-0999/0913/0913.html
–florida statutes.
913.10 Number of jurors.—Twelve persons shall constitute a jury to try all capital cases, and six persons shall constitute a jury to try all other criminal cases.
Kimmi — I stand corrected. I said 12 last night, remembering a murder trial where I was among 12 jurors and four alternates. I recalled it as a murder 2, where we convicted on manslaughter, Also wrong.
On further review (thanks to news reports online covering a trial of more than two decades ago), we knocked it down from murder 1 (not murder 2) to manslaughter, which can be done in Florida.
The kid on trial was charged with Murder 1. (In this gang-related case, the white teenager was being tried as an adult for packing a .357 magnum to school and hiding it in his locker, then going across street to a restaurant parking lot during lunch to shoot at three rival gang members, all black. The shooter and the shootee had once been friends prior to joining different gangs. The fatal bullet was in the forehead.)
None of us on the jury wanted to see the kid fry, but with exception of one male juror, we all wanted to see him pay.
We convicted him on manslaughter because the one balky juror refused to go for murder 2 and threatened to hang the jury. We settled on manslaughter.
Although, seemingly with racial overtones — skinny white kid, shoots beefy black kid — the reality was comparatively color-blind: low-life shoots low-life. The gangs themselves (what a parade of low-life witnesses) were integrated. The jury was integrated. The judge and defense lawyer were white, the prosecutor was black,
Withheld from the jury: The fact that this kid previously had shot his step-father in the arm, and had gotten only a light tap in juvenile court. Yet he told cops on tape that he’d never shot a gun before.
Thanks Ellejay!
Always appreciate you being there with the links!
Oops, hit wrong reply!
Anyone have a link? Please and thank you!
Geez, hit wrong reply twice. Time to call it a day I guess!
ugh… it sounds like a kid squealing in pain, not even anyone yelling for help
I will never understand in a million years why Fogen yelped like this for that recording. Whether or not he yelled or Travyon did, doesn’t matter – the real screams were totally different and why would he not try to reproduce these?
He didn’t know there were any 911 calls yet. Plain & Simple.
Oh, I bet those calls really screwed up Fogen’s big plans.
The final scream was not even a call for help; it was naked desperation; Trayvon saw the gun and he saw Fogen’s face and he knew. And Fogen knows that that moment is preserved, like a “moment in Peking,” and that it will fight its way back into his life one day very soon, and it will never leave.
*runs to youtube*
It appears O’Mara has finally gotten himself in gear. Link below to a motion to set status conference, signed today, regarding, among other things, setting an Immunity Hearing. Based on the motion, O’Mara states that the hearing must be completed by April 26th (Judge Nelson’s deadline) and should take app. two weeks. So, I’m guessing that’s a start date sometime in the first week in April. According to O’Mara’s availablility, we may have a firm date by the end of the week.
Motion to set status conference:
http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/0213/motion_to_set_status_conference.pdf
If he actually reviews these motions (and that’s assuming he can read), hope Fogen absorbed the line about punishable by up to life in prison.
I don’t believe he functions in the same world we do. I believe he’s off in his own alternate universe, where he can convince anyone that his actions were perfectly innocent and he was just a victim.
MOM using phrases like “as soon as practicable” and “as soon as this week” might not sit well with the Judge after he blew off last month’s meeting and claimed he needed a continuance because he was not ready. Now it’s ASAP! Do you hear me, Judge Nelson!
Ha! As annoyed as she already was, I can’t see this helping. Unless, of course, he’s trying to show her that he’s doing his utmost to adhere to the court’s decisions. I wouldn’t put it past him to have been a bit snarky in his wording though. He was seriously aggravated that he wasn’t granted the continuance.
2 weeks? Can the defense then appeal that decision if it doesn’t go their way and will the appeal be heard quickly? or will that further postpone the trial until the appeal works its way through the system?
The way I interpret it is, the deadline the judge set has a built in cushion (45 days) for either side to get ready for trial and/or appeal. I remember last summer O’Mara missed the dealine to appeal for the suppression of witness #9′s molestation statement. IIRC- the Prof said it was 15 days (hopefully, he will correct me if I’m wrong). So, if the judge sends it to trial, O’Mara better get right down to the appellate court, so he can get on their docket. As for the actual procedural questions, I will defer to someone more informed. I would only be speculating.
IMO
It should not take 2 weeks for the SYG hearing
Omara has turned in absolutely nothing and he cant just send in material for admissibility at the last minute
I feel it will take a few days
Unless court only allows a certain amount of time per court date to be used
Jun- From your last sentence, would you think that, at this point, Judge Nelson may have dates on her docket already scheduled, in that time frame? I know it’s not a big county, but do you think she would still have several days open, app. 6-7 weeks out? I’m from a big city, and judges (clerks) here have to book appearances 3-4 months out, so I’m just wondering if O’Mara may have done himself and his client a disservice by waiting so long to schedule this.
I honestly dont know much about scheduling of court
I learned most of the trial stuff on here, but we never learned about scheduling
I feel Fogenhats is just a really difficult person to deal with, along with his pops and brother, as they are all unreasonable and batshit crazy and it may not be totally Omara’s fault
I do not feel an educated lawyer would make a lot of the decisions he has made, however, he may have been forced because it was the decision of the defendant and he is not very reasonable, so any decision is bad around
It may have been Fogenhats’ scheme since start to delay and stall
I vaguely recall another judge took over a lot of Nelson’s work, to free her up for this case. The immunity hearing was pencilled in for April way back, when the June trial time was also set.
So Judge Nelson will have the time.
O’Mara is saying it will take two weeks just to make it sound like he has DAYS and DAYS worth of evidence.
A SYG hearing should be a day or two. If he’s going to drag a ton of witnesses and think that will win the day he’s goofy.
For the record there is only one known person alive who knows what really happened.
bit OT but does anyone have a link to the recent trial delay hearing that doesn’t have the added voice-over?
and, I found this quite interesting..
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/19465
I think this may be what you’re looking for, tony:
Click here: State v. Zimmerman: Pre-Trial Hearing (FULL) – Feb 5, 2013 – YouTube
Oh my goodness! The article on Strata Sphere is quite damning to GZ. Oh my goodness! Oh, did I already say that?
Good catch… I’ve added an excerpt and link to my evidence pile:
http://tinyurl.com/bavjdzl
I figured all that out months ago.
Toast! Toast!
yep – that’s it – thanks
Motion from West to depose Crump. Your thoughts Professor?
http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/0213/motion_deposition_crump.pdf
Prediction:
O’Mara will stray from the scope of the deposition until Crump refuses to answer a question. That will show that Crump has something to hide. *ominous music*
From my understanding Blackwell would be there if there was one, there has been no decision yet in regards to the affidavit, the affidavit seemingly covers everything that is within scope of Crump’s duty to the court, and I dont see what else they want, unless they want Crump to regurgitate what is in the affidavit
PEOPLE, stop jumping to conclusions about the notice of depo. That was scheduled for 2/5 and is the depo that Blackwell filed the affidavit in response to and Judge Nelson postponed until she read it. It was posted to the gzlegal site late.
Actually, Xena, the motion has references to the just completed hearing and the affidavit. It also has references to case law that says such a deposition should be allowed.
Perhaps Crump made public statements that suggest he knows more that he can say without violating attorney/client privilege.
@bettykath
The Notice of Taking Deposition that I read was to hold the depo of Attorney Crump on Feb. 5th. That was the date of the hearing in which Attorney Blackwell filed the affidavit in response, resulting in Judge Nelson postponing the deposition until after she read the affidavit.
Regardless of what West files at this juncture in effort to take deposition of Attorney Crump, Judge Nelson has already ruled — she is going to read the affidavit first and make a ruling on whether the deposition should or should not be conducted.
This is the motion:
http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/Motion%20Regarding%20Deposition%20of%20Benjamin%20Crump%20Esq.pdf
@bettykath. That motion wants Judge Nelson to enter her decision regarding the affidavit, and allow deposition beyond the scope of what the court has previously ruled. It is another effort to circumvent Judge Nelson’s ruling that Attorney Crump is a court witness and his deposition is limited to his interview of Witness 8. I cannot see Judge Nelson amending her ruling to allow depo beyond the scope of her ruling.
bettykath, IMO these references would apply to “regular witnesses.But Mr.Crump is a COURT witness for a specific matter so I’m guessing the defense references might not apply.
Xena, You’re changing your position mid-stream but at least we’re all looking at the same deposition now. The current deposition is not the one for the Feb 5 deposition. It is a new motion taking into account the affidavit and cites case law that supports the request for the deposition. The judge postpone the deposition until after she reviewed the affidavit. I don’t believe she has ruled since reviewing the affidavit. This motion is basically additional argument for why the judge should rule that the deposition be allowed regardless of the sufficiency of the affidavit for the witness 8 interview conducted by Crump.
@bettykath.
Care to support your accusation?
By the way, neither of us are looking at a deposition because there has been no deposing of Attorney Crump.
The Notice of Taking Deposition that you referred to is the one for taking Attorney Crump’s depo on Feb. 5th. You then provided the link to the Motion to take deposition, but now you refer to the Motion as a deposition.
West gives Judge Nelson good basis to deny the Motion; i.e., she already ruled on the scope of deposition. Judge Nelson already ruled that Attorney Crump is a court witness.
Xena says:
February 13, 2013 at 10:10 pm
@bettykath.
Xena, You’re changing your position mid-stream but at least we’re all looking at the same deposition now.
Care to support your accusation?
——–
The thread was introduced by speciallady and Jun speaking about the new motion dated 2/13 (with a link to it) and you responded “Xena says:
February 13, 2013 at 2:07 pm
PEOPLE, stop jumping to conclusions about the notice of depo. That was scheduled for 2/5 and is the depo that Blackwell filed the affidavit in response to and Judge Nelson postponed until she read it. It was posted to the gzlegal site late.”
After I pointed out the new motion more specifically about the new motion, that’s the one you referred to.
===========
By the way, neither of us are looking at a deposition because there has been no deposing of Attorney Crump.
The Notice of Taking Deposition that you referred to is the one for taking Attorney Crump’s depo on Feb. 5th. You then provided the link to the Motion to take deposition, but now you refer to the Motion as a deposition.
——————–
I have not been referring to the 2/5 motion at all. I have consistently been referring to the 2/13 motion. In this instance I used the wrong word, please forgive me.
=================
West gives Judge Nelson good basis to deny the Motion; i.e., she already ruled on the scope of deposition. Judge Nelson already ruled that Attorney Crump is a court witness.
———————–
The question about the deposition was reopened when the Crump affidavit was submitted and the judge postponed the deposition pending the request by Crump that he not be deposed at all.
You’re ignoring the fact that the new motion includes case law intended to justify the request for the deposition. It’s intended to influence the judge’s decision. The case law cited includes
* FL Supreme Court decision on the right of defense to depose any unlisted witness who may have information relevant to the charge, without leave of the court.
* many citations that an attorney who has relevant information is not exempt from deposition.
The defense is asserting that the affidavit and public statements show that Crump has such information and that the judge shouldn’t issue an order prohibiting the deposition. If she does, it might be an appeal-able decision.
@bettykath
When the subject came up, there were no recent docs filed with the court. I was relying on the court’s website and the circuit clerk’s docket. Evidently, someone in O’Mara’s office is releasing the docs via Twitter before they are filed with the court. I prefer to wait to see a file-stamped copy.
You’re ignoring the fact that Judge Nelson already ruled that Attorney Crump is a “court witness.” Citing case law that does not apply to a “court witness” is nothing more than wasting ink and paper, IMO.
Attorney Crump is a “court witness.” That is what the person in the black robe ruled. Remember at the last hearing when West attempted to tell the Judge the rule, that Judge Nelson stood on her ruling that she would read the affidavit first.
West approached the court regarding Crump’s interview of Witness 8. He said nothing about deposing Crump on other matters. Then, West issued a subpoena for depo that Blackwell says is over broad. That clearly demonstrates an intent by the defense to circumvent Judge Nelson’s ruling. The most recent motion verifies that the defense wants to depose Crump beyond the scope of the court’s order. The motion is not specific about the information it thinks Crump may have.
Very soon it will become apparent that Mr. West is using that legal instrument of deposition to taunt and humiliate Mr. Crump and continue the witch-hunt started by the Conservativedoghouse.
Judges don’t appreciate that kind of tactics.
Intermediate Range: The Forensic Evidence in the Killing of Trayvon Martin
This is a link to a book about the Trayvon Martin/Zimmerman case. Anyone read it or plan to?
What is the title and who is the author?
It’s by Michael Knox, the guy whose findings the article at Strata Sphere (mentioned in an earlier post here). Here’s an article:
Forensic evidence both supports, casts doubt on Zimmerman claims
Review of evidence finds good and bad for Trayvon Martin’s accused killer
Published On: Feb 10 2013 09:44:44 AM EST
http://www.news4jax.com/news/Forensic-evidence-both-supports-casts-doubt-on-Zimmerman-claims/-/475880/18487206/-/2eb0sgz/-/index.html
elcymoo, yeah, I was wondering if the person who posted it was known here or if that’s a fly-by posting on blog sites for marketing purposes.
I read the intro on Amazon and then bought a copy for my kindle. Have to go to the laundromat and can’t just sit there watching my undies go round and round.
No, not going to buy ths any more than I’m buying or reading Mark Osterman’s book.
Profiting by this ex-police officer,what are his motives, besides the obvious publicity and profit?
Why go the extra step to publish before trial?
He’s angling for a lucrative, high profile gig as an expert witness at the upcoming trial. “The Man Who Wrote the Book” on the Trayvon Martin shooting forensic evidence–Woweee! Top that, Bernie! (Nevermind that his timeline analysis is derivative and the methodology in his shooting reconstruction hopelessly flawed.)
@Dave,
Bernie DLR will skewer this mental midget. Timeline screw-ups are the easiest way to deflate an “egg spurt witness.”
It will be “Throw another shrimp on the barbie, Bernie,” if this guy shows up working for M’OM and GZ.
ay2z~ Greed. Just like everybody else in this case. I hope his book sells as many as Osterman’s did. That is to say, very few.
________________________________
Another thing about the 911 scream tape evidence is you do not hear any type of striking noises or blows being thrown. When someone says something, while being shaken, whatever sound they emit from their voice during the shaking, has a slight vibration to it and we never heard any of that. Lastly, we heard what sounds like a kid squealing in pain, and screaming in fear, and telling the defendant to get off him
Same vocal staccato phenomenon occurs when someone is running
point being, given the openness of the crime scene and the imperative nature of the fight or flight response, whoever is making those blood curdling UNINTERRUPTED screams, is being restrained, since both fight and flight leads to vocal “staccato”.
Is that so?
I am convinced that you would stop screaming if your brain is focussed on a specific task, such as the one GZ was supposedly performing seconds before the shot. You know, getting wrist control, retrieving his weapon, aiming and shooting.
Do you have information about that?
not sure you understand my point nor do I understand yours. consider re-reading what I wrote and in the mean can you elaborate your point?
thanks
You are describing the effect certain actions or emotions have on how we vocalise, if I am understanding you correctly.
I am quite sure that the terrified screams we can hear in the 911 calls, are inconsistent with the tasks GZ said he was performing. Not just that it is not logical, but most people are incapable of doing both at the same time. Like we don’t breath and swallow at the same time.
I was hoping you had more information about that phenomenon.
I am of the firm belief that those screams are Trayvon’s because
-people with loaded and available guns don’t scream like that
I am of the firm belief that Trayvon was being restrained because
-with that kind of open space he should be running or fighting
I am of the firm belief that he is not fighting because his screams are uninterrupted
I am of the firm belief that he is not running because his screams shown no Doppler or staccato effect. The phenomenon I point to can be demonstrated by anyone just try to run and scream.
@Tzar. When I first heard the NEN call, then heard the 911 call that captured the screams, there was no doubt in my mind that it was Trayvon screaming. A person who calls a stranger “assholes” before getting out of a vehicle to follow that person, then calls them “funking punks/coons” while running in chase, demonstrates intent to confront. He believes he is able to control the person he chases.
At no time did GZ say he cried “stop” or “get off,” or “you win, I give up.” At no time did GZ say that he told Trayvon he did not want to fight. What GZ did say is that he cried for help and when seeing someone, asked that they help restrain Trayvon. Thus, he tells what he planned all along.
The photo shown to Tracy to identify Trayvon says it all — a tear on his cheek, and saliva coming out of his mouth. That is the photo of a person screaming, in fear, and in pain.
You said it all. Sometimes we can forget what a horrible thing this man did, I know this because every time I review the KNOWN details of that night, I find myself shocked, horrified and disgusted all over again as if I had not heard them a hundred times before.
@Tzar
It is shocking to think that GZ could take Trayvon’s life and blatantly lie with such confidence that he believes it was God’s plan. It is God’s plan that GZ spend the rest of his life in prison.
And I believe God’s Plan is a good plan. The worst part is during his alleged reenactment when he says he drew his firearm, aimed and fired one shot…..he shrugs his shoulders with a “….what are ya gonna do…” look. As if this is an everyday thing.
I hit the bed frame with my big toe, it hurts but what are ya gonna do?
I spilled that soda all over the counter…..hey, what are ya gonna do?
I just tagged that stopped car, it was just an accident…hey, what are ya gonna do ??
I was late for work again today, what are ya gonna do ??
I pulled my firearm, aimed and fired one shot…..hey, what are ya gonna do ??
@racerrodig. Well, since he had already left his home and was being harbored by Osterman, GZ was prepared to avoid arrest. His shoulder shrug no doubt included, “This is my story. If you don’t believe me, and since I’ve left home, what are you gonna about it?”
To the tune of “Runaround Sue” Sing along everyone
1 – 2 – 3 –
Here’s our story, it’s sad but true
’bout FogenPhoole that we all knew
he told those lies and ran around
Now he’s goin’ down, down, down
Chorus
Hurt, hurt…he’s gonna hurt, hurt
Hurt, hurt…he’s gonna hurt, hurt
Hurt, hurt…he’s gonna hurt, hurt
Hurt, hurt…he’s gonna hurt, hurt
Hurt, hurt…he’s gonna hurt, hurt
Hurt, hurt…he’s gonna hurt, hurt
Hurt, hurt…he’s gonna hurt, hurt
Hurt, hurt…he’s gonna hurt Ahhhhhhh !
Ah, we should have known from the very start
That this story will leave us with broken hearts
Now listen people what I’m tellin’ you
You keep away from that FogenPhoole too
Slim used to leave us with a smile on our face
His touch was there and with a warm embrace
So if you all wanna stay real safe
You keep away from that FogenPhoole too
Chorus
Fogen likes to travel around
He’ll lie and then let ya down
Now people let me put you wise
Fooo – geeen, he lies lies, lies
Here’s the moral of the story from the guys who know
Fogen loves to tell ya all that he knows
Ask any Phoole that he ever knew,
They’ll say keep away from that FogenPhoole too
Chorus
Fogen likes to travel around
He’ll lie and then let ya down
Now people let me put you wise
Fooo – geeen, he lies lies, lies
Here’s the moral of the story from the guys who know
Fogen loves to tell ya all that he knows
Ask any Phoole that he ever knew,
They’ll say keep away from that FogenPhoole too
Chorus
@racerrodig. That is so COOL!!!!
i was just doing the lyrics and I have to thank MMP for prompting me to post the song somehow of which I had no clue as to how to do it. Turns out to so easy, I feel the fool.
As I’ve said before I’m an artiest…….yet reading this…..if it was “gods” plan to have fogen murder Trayvon so that “god” could wage his wrath against fogen, at the cost of Trayvon’s life?……..just another “god’ I have no interest in believing….
Spiritual? Yeah…..some Blue Sage burning now
JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON
@MMPat.
No. When GZ said it was God’s plan, he accused God for his murdering action and made God a party in the case. What one sows, the same shall they reap. It’s the same as if GZ planted a tree that began immediately bearing fruit. Just look at the following:
1. He has health issues because he has gained 100 pounds in less than a year.
2. He is being sued by the security firm.
3. He has gone through $300,000 and has nothing to show for it.
4. His wife is still awaiting trial for perjury.
5. His brother is making a fool of himself, rubbing elbows with White Supremacists.
6. He has not gotten anything from the court that he wants; is still on the GPS ankle bracelet, cannot leave Seminole County, cannot open a bank account, denied a continuance, denied release of personal information for State witnesses.
7. He cannot afford the costs of defense, yet cannot dissolve the trust fund because he will not be able to eat.
No one wrongfully blames God and walks away without reaping.
Thank you Xena…………Maybe moreso like “god” saying ” you want to blame me for ur f’ups?…….I’m gonna smite the hell out of you”……
@MMPat.
Actually, the laws are written in the universe. God intervenes when one seeks forgiveness and is truly sorry for the wrong they commit; harm they cause others, etc. because he is a loving and forgiving God. He gives us choices. What GZ demonstrated is the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that calls good evil, evil good, and believes that God does both.
” He gives us choices.” Yes he does. I know you heard ? me say this on HP that I pray for the opportunities. I also praise him and his son and do my Christian music thing and far more often that not…
opportunities arise.
@racerrodig. I’ve not posted on HP — but yes, I understand what you’re saying.
For some reason I thought you were there under a different name. There are several there that have the same avatar….maybe I’m just confused !!
@racerrodig. I only adopted the gravatar since August, but have always used Xena with the exception of Crime Watchers. Because there was already a Xena, it wouldn’t allow me to use that so I’m Xena-Blackbutterfly there.
Oooookay !!
FogenPhoole stated it was Gods plan that Fogen survive. He made no mention that it was FogenPhuckingPhooles Free Will decision to commit murder.
I’m sorry. That he “…survive that savage attack by Black Dynamite Slim…” that night. I wouldn’t want any Zidiots telling me I missed some of the facts.
I fully understand and can we agree to disagree on that one.
None of know what the future hold and why. I can say that I pray very often and many times they are answered. On that note I’ll shut up on that topic.
Tzar I agree with you that everything you mention makes it very illogical that GZ was the person screaming. But I think there is also a physical reason why GZ can’t be the person we hear screaming.
What I am looking for is probably closer to your description of running and screaming at the same time. But I am not sure if we are talking about the same thing. Are you just describing a sound effect or are most people incapable to perform those two tasks at the same time?
I think the brain will focus you to perform one task(running, getting your gun) and stop you from performing another task at the same time(screaming).
it’s a little bit of both but mostly that the jarring action of running will affect vocalization.
It’s a fact that when you are forced to do something that requires effort or deep thought, it is virtually impossible to do anything else.
Try running as fast as you can and hold a conversation at the same time……
Remember some people can’t walk and chew gum at the same time. FogenPhoole would fit that one.
Yeah…he was beatin’ the crap outta me so I just laid there and took it. I yelled, I cried, I called out…..nobody came to help.
The truth is that in that real situation “Survival Instincts” take over and you’s be surprised what the brain tells your body to do. Like, fight back….deflect the blows…..flop like a fish out of water and shake that Black Dynamite Slim off…….No, I’m Fogen……..oh wait
THE GUN !!
I’m in agreement with Tzar, vigorous physical activity will cause the sound of the voice to pick up artifacts. Try recording your own voice while at rest, then try it again while doing push ups.
Now, as far as doing two things at once, it depends on the task and the environment/circumstances. Thus, if you’re discussing talking while writing a letter, or cooking, no problem. But, if you’re thinking about screaming while engaged in combat, probably not if you’re the attacker. The person attacked may scream at some point, either because they’re calling for help or because they in terror because they are losing a life and death struggle.
The person with the superior conditions does not yell or scream because they’re devoting their efforts at maintaining and/or enjoying their superiority. If GZ was calling help, it was because he was mimicking Trayvon. He could do that because he was under no threat. Thus his voice lacks the power induced by fear and/or terror.
That makes sense because GZ has the gun. Of course, if someone reaches for his firearm, he loses the luxury of talking at all, because he has to focus on keeping his weapon. The problem is, defending yourself or your weapon from an adversary, involves the use of both hands. So there is no way that he would be able to grab and hold Trayvon by the garments, unless Trayvon is offering no resistance at all.
I don’t see Trayvon lashing out with his hands at all, he’s a kid and he’s in awe of adults. He’s a terrified non-combatant, thus the only defense he knows is to flee if it is possible. If not he just pulls away, twists turns and/or falls down. All in an effort to break the grip his attacker has on him.
“I don’t see Trayvon lashing out with his hands at all, he’s a kid and he’s in awe of adults. He’s a terrified non-combatant…”
I agree 100%. The way Trayvon was raised I doubt he’d be inclined to hit anyone, especially an adult. Trayvon may have had 20 – 30 seconds of WTF is this about before FogenPhoole got serious and drew his gun. At that point any intelligent person knows don’t rile this guy up any more than he is.
I can imagine during that 20 – 30 second initial span he’s now in adaptation mode….then he see’s things getting worse and I’d bet he’s thinking “….if I whoop on this guy……dad is gonna be pissed…” Remember the adult version of anything is believed before any kids version. Now Fogen draws his weapon and it’s to late.
I sincerely doubt he even thought about laying a hand on GZ, put it this way, would you even think about laying a hand on Mike Tyson?
No one in their right mind would even think of trying to match Tyson with fisticuffs. Unless you are a trained prize fighter you wouldn’t even think about it because you know you don’t stand a chance.
Only in comic books do they show people wrestling with lions, tigers and lizards. Because in real life you’d only be killed really fast. Those cute little cats weigh 700 lbs and can break a person in half with a swat of a paw. Part of human intelligence is knowing when not to go up against a superior adversary. To a child, even small adults are superior. Big adults like GZ are very imposing authoritative figures. GZ wants you to believe that Trayvon is a savage and dangerous thug because he’s black and all blacks are battle ready and dangerous savages at birth.
For trying to peddle that bit of intelligence insulting insanity alone, GZ should be punched in the mouth every five minutes!
I can’t fathom how stupid he must be, not to mention his family, thinking he can pawn that crap on us and we’ll just believe him.
“For trying to peddle that bit of intelligence insulting insanity alone, GZ should be punched in the mouth every five minutes!”
Can I have the first shift ??
Jun & Tzar….I absolutely agree with both of you. That was something that I had not even thought of but makes perfect sense to me.
off topic, but I heard some GPS systems have their own battery and can record voices even if the phones battery is dead or not in it.. Is that true? If so then could there be voices captured on Trayvon’s phone GPS? hmmmmm
Doubt if that is the case with a phone gps.
Follow….a day late
Xena, thanks for the explaination about yesterday’s docs coming out on a Twitter account before they were posted at the gzlegal website. Judge Nelson doesn’t read news, so maybe she also doesn’t follow Twitter and like me, was thinking things got posted first on the defense website. It’s shocking really. There should be some rules of procedure for court documents publication, because if the docs were supplied to an intern, or junior or anyone else before they became ‘court document’, what happens if the doc is never filed and never will be filed as shared?
O’Mara’s people give documents to a non-client to publish to the jury pool BEFORE they are submitted to the court?
There is no reason to opt for Twitter broadcasting, other than to reach the jury pool as quickly as possible.
This is where the court publishes motions, etc.
http://www.flcourts18.org/presspublic.html
thanks, looks like all are filed
@ay2z
It’s my impression that the Feign Team posts docs through Twitter for the benefit of the Zidiots so they can develop their conspiracy theories and false hypothesis. It’s more like propaganda.
Found this on Jr’s (The Z family’s) Twitter…
Must be the Z Family Motto:
Hahahaha!
Or a disclaimer for Fogen!
Junior’s latest career development, is he up for this one?
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_tv_tvblog/2013/02/george-zimmerman-brother-set-for-real-time-with-bill-maher.html
A reminder of Maher’s contributions to this story early on-
That should be fun.
Ya know I believe that Junior is doing nothing more than pimping off his brother for $$$$$$$ with the interviews and such…….And it would benefit Junior if fogen (is) convicted because it will only be Junior than will be able to continue the talk show circuit,$$$$$$$$$$$$……….. as opposed to fogen being acquitted…because then it would be fogen on the talk show circuit $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
Naw I really believe Junior could give a rats ass about his brother
Jr reminds me of joey buterfuko(misspelled). From the Amy Fisher debacle…remember?
I really don’t see the similarity but at least Buttafuoco was gettin’ some. Buttafuoco tried to disappear from the embarrassment whereas Jr is a media hound, not to mention a 1st class fruitcake.
Yep, aka; The Long Island Lolita.
Good point there MMP!
From what I heard these 2 hated each other so badly Jr actually did give a rat’s ass to his brother. He didn’t care about his brother, just gave his a rat’s ass…..and actually, both deserve one.
Can’t wait to Jr on Bill Maher !! the same one who called FogenPhoole a “…big fat fucking liar…”
I’ll take “Famous TV Interview Ambushes” for $5,000.00 Alex.
@mmp….. i’ve been saying this for some time now. rzj couldn’t care less about his lil bro. he wants nothing more than for gz to be convicted. he ONLY cares about self promotion. It’s so obvious that he’s extremely jealous of his brother’s noteriety and that he has trumped him in the Zimm family hierarchy. i think rzj is even more disturbed than gz. gz is evil alright, but rzj somehow gives off an even worse satanic vibe. go figure.
i love bill maher, i went on 1 date with him in my native L.A., in the early 90′s. he was a complete gentleman, scary smart, pleasant and amusing. but…..let’s just say i was advertinsing falsely (young and dumb back then), and our signals got crossed, and one date was enough for both of us. mr. maher likes his women…..to be…… experienced.
I just hope that bill grills him like he deserves to be grilled. so far NO other interviewer has. NO, not even arrogant piers morgan.
VIBES?…..yeah….without a doubt….we can’t just say he’s a liar….they all are……something special about junior
Vibes?
fogen?….psychotic moron dumbass
junior?…..psychotic snake manipulator
This is gonna be good
Bill Maher is not gonna softball and hold back
He’s gonna confront Junior if he lies at all to Bill Maher
@Jun. Yep. Junior has a temper. He will either blow it or cry like a baby.
Can’t wait for this, I predict Bill Maher and Donna Braizle will make Jr cry.
Either that or dragged, kicking and screaming from the stage in one of those “I love me” jackets, by the men in white coats.
I love me jackets. Haven’t heard that one in a long time !!
But on the other hand Jr isn’t smart enough to realize he’s been “Owned” At least Joe “Rent a Friend” Oliver realized he was done and you could tell he wanted to be anywhere but there.
You got that right !! Bill is likely to say “..why do you feel compelled to lie” Jr will say at least once “…were you there..? when backed into a corner. Maher will own him then.
I can see it now
Bill Maher “Who the fuck do you think you are kidding with that nonsense? It is pretty obvious you brother never got assaulted or attacked. He’s a big fat fucking liar. He targeted, and stalked this kid, and when he caught the kid, your brother confronted, threatened, and attacked the kid. One’s a 17 year old teenage boy with only Skittles and Ice Tea. Your brother was stalking the kid and calling him a fucking coon, while chasing the kid with a gun.”
Junior “Were you there? Why do you not stick to the facts?”
Bill Maher “Would you please cut his mic?”
Yep…..Bill ain’t taking his shit, that’s “…undisputed…”
This is going to be a slaugherfest! RZ will be fried, dyed and laid to the side!
I can’t wait for that fruitcake to ask Bill if he was there. Ka-Boom!!
Bill will roast him and Bill does not ever back down. Then at some
point FogenPhoolesPhamilyPhreak will tell Bill to “…stick to the facts…” BammO !!
Then Bill will ask why FogenPhoole referred to him as a worthless piece of shit to SheLie in one of those jail house calls. Bingo!!
I can’t wait to hear his reason why they hadn’t talked for over 10 years……what, lost his number ??
“Then Bill will ask why FogenPhoole referred to him as a worthless piece of shit to SheLie in one of those jail house calls. Bingo!!”
Was GZ stupid enough to mention RZ Jr by name on a recorded prison call?
Does “…my brother…” fit the meaning of “…by name…”
I vote “Yes” That’s how stupid FogenPhoole is.
OMG I hope Bill Maher doesn’t back down on questioning RZJ. He doesn’t seem like the type to ask softball questions and agree to disagree like Piers Morgan.
Maher never backs down….hell I’m hoping he has Lewis Black as a guest host !!!
Bill does his homework and there’s just so much there for him to use, this thing is “gotcha” rich! Big 8″ thick, rich veins of Gotcha’s running all through the mine you can’t drop a shovel without hitting ore. LOL
Doesn’t he realize he’s tap dancing in the minefield ?? !! This nut is going on National TV with Bill Maher who has expressed his feelings about this in no uncertain terms and thinks he’s coming out unscathed ??
I’ll take “Utter Top 5 Morons” for $5,000.00 Alex.
“This nut is going on National TV with Bill Maher who has expressed his feelings about this in no uncertain terms and thinks he’s coming out unscathed ?? ”
This only proves to me the insanity of the Zimmerman KKKlan who think they can “outwit” people who are much smarter than they are with double-talk. I can’t imagine RZJ would want to expose himself to someone like Bill Maher other than RZJ has delusions of grandeur like his brother and other family members.
.
When Jr started talking last year I stated he’s about as bright as a 2 watt bulb. My apologies to all. I’ll amend that to 2 milliwatts.
Not many morons volunteer to be the guest of honor at an execution. Does FogenPhoolesPhuckingPhamily have any idea what Mahar has said about this……..Yeessh !!
Like I said below, I think it is his secret intent to put his brother away for life, otherwise he would just STFU.
I saw that post and he may hate him, after all they were estranged for 10 years so who knows. If he is trying to seal his fate, he’s doing a damn good job.
Junior must have heard that Fogenhats thinks he’s a useless piece of crap
It is recorded on a jailhouse phone call
Oppps I forgot about that one. Looks like Jr is out to prove FogenPhoole wrong now, doesn’t it.
Another Maher video:
Bill Maher: Racism, gun laws killed Trayvon
and the invention of the SYG laws and rolling over on gun control.
Martinhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy0-i8GhD7E
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-crump-20130213,0,5979916.story
In a separate development, attorneys in the case have set a hastily-scheduled hearing for 4 p.m. tomorrow to discuss whether Zimmerman’s “stand your ground” hearing, at which he’s expected to ask for immunity, should be delayed.
to ask if it should be delayed? what new development should delay it from previously scheduled date?
http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/news/static/cfnews13/documents/2013/02/zimmerman-motion-status-conference-021313.pdf
The motion says ‘time frame and scheduling’ for what they expect will take 2 weeks.
SheLie wants to make sure FogenPhooles plastic surgery is all healed up in time for that big fleeing moment. She was trying to get in the medical profession after all. Look at the great job she did on the fly with a few knuckle bandages. Just imagine the job she can do in the plastic surgery field.
racer – I think that is where the missing money is going to be spent. I just feel in my bones — he is going to take off.
If he tries, he won’t get very far. He’s being watched by a few concerned agencies.
It would be entertaining watching him trying to run, and then getting tackled by some FBI or Cop and arrested
Maybe the cop or FBI can give him a few punches for “resisting arrest”
Rachel. I read the motion and did not read anything about delaying the hearing. The reporter was incorrect.
No read again
The reporter said “He’s expected to ask for a delay” LOL
Jun, diary’s point is that the reporter made a mistake. The motion doesn’t say anything about a delay. It’s basically a planning session with a decision at the end so they all know when to show up ready to do the self-defense hearing.
The reporter simply stated he is expected to ask for a delay, he never stated that he was going to ask for a delay
@diary and bettykath – Suggested lessons learned:
> Sometimes there’s more to a defense motion or other filing than what is stated in it.
> Sometimes reporters know more about the situation because they have spoken with the defense and thereby gained more insight.
> Sometimes intuition is a valuable analytical tool – especially when it’s based on historical experience or observations. That is, “reading between the lines” is an important skill to hone in the rough-and-tumble world of litigation … if you don’t like being duped or surprised. (And I’ve seen some darned good intuition on this blog.)
Okay, so all that talk about having the hearing, was a load of crap?
LMAO
I thought it was ready to go down, but now they want a delay LOL
Was this not adressed already, did not the judge rule on this just a few days ago.
Great comments.
Man U v Real Madrid got to go.
Man U takes it.
Wow. I’m surprised you folks aren’t talking about the Christopher Dorner situation.
Dorner has been mentioned briefly a few times and would make a great topic for an in-depth discussion. So far, facts are scarce.
I totally agree & ask the prof if he would consider Dorner. Now I think it is even more important. The police are becoming more & more dangerous to regular people
Maybe the Prof. can start a new blog for that………I do find it interesting…”charred remains”….so forensically there is no way of telling if it was a self inflicted gunshot wound…….. I Used to live in So. Cal…..Different county…..I would avoid going thru LA as much as I could….not just that I don’t like cities……LAPD and their sheriffs dept are complete a$$holes from my own personal experience with them….
I DO NOT JUSTIFY DORNERS ACTIONS
I do believe there is more to his claims than LAPD want to admit.
Back in the 70′s I was busted with a kilo of weed….before they changed the search and seizure laws…..never made it to arraignment as my lawyer had shown illegal search and seizure PRIOR to arraignment…..A deputy kicked the sh*t out of me in the hallway when I was released less than 18 hours after my arrest….
LAPD ARE GOONS
mmp,
Yes they are, along with Riverside, San Bernardino Sheriff’s and San Diego PD
I worked with RPD for awhile….pretty much decent guys…..
I’ll have NO argument as far as the Berdoo PD
The law enforcement agencies who cornered Dorner wanted it to seem as if he started the fire in the cabin. However, they did. http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/02/13/audio-catches-cops-shouting-burn-this-motherfcker-during-dorner-siege/
mmp,
I’ll go you one better.
San Diego PD arrested me, taking a cellophane wrapped candle the size of a kilo of marijuana, and covered with alfalfa , along with a jar of silica sand w/a “things go better with coke” label as “evidence” of my crime(s) in the early 1970′s. I made bail, and when Monday rolled around, my atty learned there was no arraignment and/or record of my having been taken into custody !
Yes, goons and worse.
I think Dorner’s claims against the LAPD are probably valid.
I also think killing those people was inexcusable. But then, after all, it has not been excused, has it?
Dorner’s manifesto has. paragraph on Zimmerman. It’s on p. 22/23 of the copy I read. I would quote it but it was pdf.
@ MMP
LA is my home but I spent 20 years in Colorado Springs, talk about bad police, LA can’t touch them.
btw have you been following Josh Carrier? I believe he’s going to be sentenced next week. Do you know?
Yeah Thursday it give a ticket day for the CSPD…….first place I lived in Co was Manitou…..the cops there were cool.
Now?……lets just say I live somewhere in the mountains north of Lake George……..And happy as hell where I’m at
@MMPat. Please check your email for an invitation so you and Racer can exchange email addresses and chat.
I told MMP about your invite. I told him we have a real good thing there and I thank you again.
My son did 2 song rewrites tonight. See…..he and his friends have a real problem with a psycho like Fogen murdering the residents or guests in the community. They’re pretty involved in the topic so I hope there is no age DISCRIMINATION on that….
I cut him loose and I think he did a pretty fair job. He had a problem with one of the lines on “Renegade” and I think you’ll identify it when you spit you beverage at the screen.
Hint…..it concerns SheLie and a vegetable !!!
@racerrodig. No age discrimination on Blackbutterfly7. There are some people who comment using 4 letter words however. I’m vegetating on cold medication while watching a Planet of the Apes movie marathon. LOL!!!
Cool OK Take Care
I still have 2 grown children who live in the Springs. Both have been profiled on more than one occasion. My daughter’s husband is an E-7 at the Academy. They own their home at the No. end of town in a good area, drive nice vehicles with AF stickers and yet still get hassled… I read the Gazette most every day because I know so many people and so many of my kids friends from K-12 have ended up in the obits (I guess I’m a bit morbid in that respect). Sad. Needless to say I’ve followed Carriers trial (Dietra Farries and many others too). Good ‘ole Ted, wow, another church, surprised he has any followers but then again, so does fogen.
C/S to me is evil, yet I still visit and sometimes feel torn, 20 years is a long time. Lots of bad memories but I’m somehow drawn to it. Worked as a cosmetologist at the Broadmoor for a good while, it was like going to Disneyland every day, couldn’t wait to get to work and sad to leave at the end of the day. Love Colorado history. Ahhh but I digress; LA is home and always has been (even through the 20 years).
Anyway, I just wanted to touch base, wondering if you knew anything about Carrier’s sentencing date, he’s such a scumbag, LIFE w/o parole!
Lady
BTW….haven’t heard the latest on carrier the child molesting cop……Co Springs is also the home of ted haggarty….and he has a new church goin’ already……The “Springs” is the BIG CITY to me……..get most of what we need no farther than Woodland Park.
It’s a distressingly conflicted situation, the LAPD is far from a bunch of angels, as we’ve seen over the years, and yet we can’t agree with Dorner either. It’s terribly difficult to attempt to render the finer points of the matter, seeing how easy it is to be misinterpreted, so everyone simply stands clear.
Dorner should have hired a ghostwriter and written a book.
@Two sides to a story:
I don’t condone what this rogue cop did. I believe every word he said, but the way to get his message across was not to shoot innocent people. He knew he was not going to come out of this alive. The LAPD has been corrupt for years. Look at the fact that they had Stephanie Lazurus on the force since the 80′s and she was just arrested and convicted last year of murdering her ex man’s wife! She was a suspect way back when the young lady was murdered, but of course, they covered it up for one of their own. Her dad tried his best to keep this in in the news so that he could get justice for his daughter. I am glad he and his wife never gave up the fight.
Now that would have been a much better idea and he could send little packets of evidence to various newspapers, implicating and exposing various people. Over time it works like a Chinese drip torture, no one knows whose going to come under scrutiny next.
After a while he’d have had them all scrambling for the hills, doing more dirt to cover their tracks and making matters even more complicated by committing even more and bigger offenses.
Instead he does this and gives them cover! Poor plan, bad outcome.
Fond of Sun Tzu Lonnie?
You’re comment as to how he could have done it are completely Sun Tzu’s teachings
“Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent’s fate.”
In the “war” one has to think about sparing lives. Because no one is innocent, it’s just a matter of what we’re guilty of.
Each time the overseer cracks his whip as some peon hefts another 50lb bushel basket of coffee to the mill, we coffee drinkers are guilty of that.
While I acknowledge the existence of corruption in the LAPD, I think that it is a serious mistake to give too much credence to Dorner’s point of view. From what I’ve read elsewhere, he in fact has a lot more in common with GZ than the things that LLMPapa included in his video a few days ago. For one thing, he seems to have had anger issues dating back many years, and to believe that it was appropriate to use violence/physical force in response to verbal insults. He wanted a law enforcement career, but was not emotionally suited for it. He seems to have had difficulty following orders, and he had a know-it-all attitude. The timing of his coming in on the kicking complaint makes it seem that it was retaliation and/or an attempt to avoid consequences for his training officer giving him an unfavorable report. He probably already knew that the father of the mentally ill man was pursuing a complaint on the matter. Yes, he had complained about corruption in the LAPD – but I have seen no evidence that he actually did anything positive about exposing or publicly exposing corruption. The discussion in his manifesto seems to be self-promotion.
This is not to say that Dorner is like GZ in all respects. For one thing, he was smarter and more articulate. For another, his family is not playing a sleazy “blame the victim” game. They have condemned his actions and expressed their regrets.
Is there any way that Judge Nelson can put a gag order on this IDIOT? he is doing his best to taint a possible jury pool. there is one thing about these two brothers, they do not listen at all. dispatch told Fogen we don’t need you to do that and, their father told JoonYah to stay out of his brother’s case. they don’t listen worth a damn do they?
I think I finally figured it out. Jr. Hates GZ and he knows that every time he opens his fool mouth, he makes GZ look even worse. I think he’s trying to put his brother away for life.
BINGO! Exactly what I’ve been saying for a few weeks now. RJZ wants nothing more than for GZ to be convicted! He’s exceedingly jealous of GZ’s noteriety and “success” (by Zimm standards……anyway), and is PO’d that GZ has trumped him in Zimm family hierarchy. If GZ is convicted, HE gets to step up HIS media tour of SELF PROMOTION. If GZ is not convicted, he’s back to just being a short, stumpy, make-up wearing, unemployed, sciopath with nothing more to do than stare at himself in the mirror. Well lets just say, I’ll have to get used to seeing his wretched mug on TV, because Fogen must be convicted!
If Judge Nelson could put a gag order on Junior she could do the same to you and me and everyone else who posts here on similar grounds.
No, Dave, not really:
http://dictionary.law.com/default.aspx?selected=802
That supports my statement. The court can issue a gag order to prevent the parties in the case and their attorneys from commenting in public. Junior is not a party in the case anymore than we are. He’s just another citizen expressing opinions (however repellant they might be) about the case.
Come to think of it, I believe that blanket gag orders are routine for criminal trials in some other countries. Colin? Aussie?
I know that the UK puts some limitations on what the public and media can publicly post about cases in progress as well as in other situations in which privacy laws or something like that are invoked. Maybe someone can elaborate who knows more than I do.
Messing with the jury pool is a messy and dangerous fools errand. Imagine yourself being fooled by the news and as a non-racist juror, coming to court with a preconceived notion that you’re going to hear exculpatory evidence that confirms what you heard on the news and on the teevee shows.
Only to have yourself disabused of those notions in court. The defense doesn’t put on the “good evidence” you heard on tee vee, and the prosecution demolishes whatever the defense does put on. Then you begin to realize that, the reason you’re not hearing the same stuff you heard on tv, is because none of that stuff ever happened. On top of it all, you’re surprised to learn that GZ is a proven and demonstrated baldfaced liar too boot.
Finally he takes the stand and insults your intelligence with talk of thugs skipping through the neighborhood, while helplessly he waits and watches while his own head gets bashed in. Do you pick up on the fact that the life threatening attack ceases 40 plus feet away from where the fatal shot is fired? My guess is, you go into the jury room too disgusted to deliberate at all. The Foreman of the jury, usually begins by calling for a vote right away. That vote comes back unanimous, nobody has any questions, they don’t feel there’s anything to debate. The rest of the time is spent filling out the appropriate forms and the bailiff is called and told “we have a verdict”.
GZ stands as the verdict is read and he wets his pants and faints.
He’s toast! Judge Nelson cancels the bail and sets a date for sentencing and the lights go off. O’Mara and Company scoops up their papers and swiftly withdraws from the courtroom with the obligatory “we will appeal”.
GZ is suddenly surrounded by officers and shuttled towards a back doorway. He will be held in county lock up until sentencing, then moved to the state penitentiary.
“That vote comes back unanimous, nobody has any questions, they don’t feel there’s anything to debate. The rest of the time is spent filling out the appropriate forms and the bailiff is called and told “we have a verdict”.”
I agree other than I think the jury will play around for a day or two telling jokes, laughing at SheLie, and Taaffe and the tall tales, get a few more free meals then send the Verdict Notice. Can’t look too anxious now can we……that would hurt the book sales 3 of the jurors are going to write.
I wonder what the over / under is for the number of jurors trying to hide their laughter when they file in for the verdict. I say at least 2 give it away with the facial expressions.
I can’t wait.
Lonnie Starr- what a wonderful story! And with a happy ending, too! Can’t wait for it to become reality!
Sent from my iPod
Just a friendly reminder to everyone, Investigation Discovery will feature Trayvon Martin murder case tonight @8PM, or at least on my cable channel in Salisbury, Maryland.
Thank you. Catching the last 35 minutes.
Let me get this straight
M O M Say we pushed for time no way can we make June 10 for trial.
Now want to schedule a meeting .hearing confrence.
About a possable fortnights chinwag re the alleged upcomeing .
Not realy Stang your Ground hearing.
More a trad self defence hearing
Because you cant stand your ground if your laying on the ground.
Thats not possable due to gravity.
Like blood flowing upwards its impossable .
So even though its a trad S Y G hearing we are calling it a traditinal self defence.
Or as my client whom had decided to micro manage this case an now the depo prosess.
Just as he seems to micro wave anything that doesnt move in the oven.
He has now involved himself in security PR Strategy ..logistics depo prosess an wants to personaly oustion witness.
Anyway my client refers to this entire event as.
Justifiable Homicide an says he even told the detectives that an everything man.
He claims as he was in fear for his life from multiple sourses an threats.
Verbal
Smothering
HeadBASHING
MULTIPLE PUNCHES
An Trayvons remark after he feels he saw the gun an was possabley undeniably going to get thee gun an shoot him.
Your gonna die tonight mo fo.
Is undeniable that here towith an without malice afore thought
Drop all thease charges an declare a holiday in my honour.
Call It
Zimmerman Equals Real Oneness…………DAY
Zero Day.
lol. Where’d you see Z received food stamps?
Investigation Discovery on racial profiling, including what happened to Trayvon Martin, is on now. 7 p.m. CST.
O/T-
Investigation: Where’s Mark Osterman these days?
I haven’t seen or heard anything about him lately.
(Not that I really want to, but I’m very curious)
So involved in the beginning, now gone without a trace, poof!
Interesting, imo.
@Kimmi. After Osterman appeared on Dr. Phil’s to promote his book, he was named a State witness. Maybe that taught him to STFU.
I don’t miss his big round suck-up face, either.
Need to ask a stupid question the guy who gz asks to call his wife says gz impatienly said just tell my wife I shot someone.the caller must have said more than that or how would Shelly know where he was.I really believe Shellie was in the truck and knows more than anyone will ever know.
I wouldn’t be at all surprised to learn that Shellie was in the truck but so far we haven’t seen any hard evidence to support that hypothesis. Unlike her husband she has had enough sense to keep her mouth shut about the case in public.
LOL agree with 100% of everything you said.
Were Osterman and Shellie there by the time police arrived?
If so, that is hard evidence they were close by
I don’t think she was in the truck with Fogen, Trayvon would have mentioned it. I do believe she knew that he was going out to patrol the neighborhood that night.
Tinted windows on a dark, rainy night, perhaps he could not identify wh was in the truck or not.
I find it strange that they were there that fast
He did start to mention something about his wife in the re-enactment and then back-peddled and changed his statement. The way he said that made me feel that she may have been in the truck.
Me too Two Sides
Count me in. If you listen to the analysis of his NEN call, there is someone with him. You can hear faint whispering and when he stutters as if he’s drunk, it’s because just before that you hear paper rustle and “….tell ‘em this..” clearly, but faint.
He stuttered because his focus was directed at something else. How many times are we on the phone or doing something and the wife / husband / child disturbs you and ……..I’m on the computer dear, be done in a minute….then your brain goes huhh and you forget……..what were we talking about…oh focus. He lost focus on what he was saying.
You also hear 2 doors close if you listen closely. There are videos all over about this. He had someone with him I am convinced of that.
Shellie – perhaps by the Kalubb house?
On one hand, Fogen might have left his schtruck to impress Shellie – on the other hand, she discouraged him on another of his NEN calls to stay in the house and not follow the “suspect”…
Apparently the Nutter’s seem to know ShelLIE was pretty close.
According to the Nutter’s timeline, created by Diwataman,
Shellie and Osterman arrived at 7:31, so they weren’t very far.
Shellie & Osterman show up
2/26/2012 7:31:00pm
http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2012/09/20/timeline-of-events-feb-26-2012/
Oops. Not sure if that was the correct link.
http://www.preceden.com/timelines/48280-gz-case
Imagine – and Osterman lives in Lake Mary.
bettykath says:
February 12, 2013 at 3:39 pm
thanks, lurker. I agree that the witnesses all saw something different MOM would subpoena only the witness/es that support the defense story. Guess it’s time to look through the witness statements to see if any of them support the defense contention that you-know-who was on the bottom. I can’t believe he is naive enough to think the rest of what I postulated is enough. Or maybe he is going through the motions expecting that they aren’t going to prevail.
I expect the prosecution might take all those witness statements and describe the elephant.
Witnes can say they saw Trayvon on top foggen on top or what apeared to the young boy with the absconding dog.
As one person laying down shouting for help.
E M T can say they cleaned up a couple of minor scrapes on foggens head,
And that he decleined not once not twice but thrice to attend a hospital for further checks.
Therfore had no visable concussion or hospital would be mandatory.
An questiong by L E nixed.
Wittnes can xlaim to have heard an seen many things.
Screams running struggling.
Remember there were at least three minutes unacounted for in foggens narrative.
In wich time a fluid struggle took place pushing pulling grabing probably fallling down wrestling.
An all this ocoured over about 170 seconds an also yards in distance an differt yards of peoples residences.
So many witnesses say differnt events at differnt times.
What the witness saw none can validate the defendants story.
In fact they damage it.
Besides to some extent what the witnes say and foggen is irrelevant.
Its what the forensics say that will detrmine the outcome of the trial.
Unlike human witnes forensics doest lie or make mistakes.
And the forensics prove with certainty that the defendant is a liar ans guilty.
Its impossable to repeatadly punch someone in the face .
Break there nose draw blood an snot
Smother that person with both your hands over his bloooody snotty possably broken nose
An also bash there head non stop.
All that alone is immpossable without at least puttting someone in a coma.
But its also impossable to do all that ##Touch all those bodily fuids
An not have one single peice of his dna on your person
Thats
NOT POSSABLE.
Wich proves that foggen is lieing about every thing.
Oh but what possable reason could foggen have to lie about stalking an murdering an innocen child?
>^..^< Dang! I miss ONE day and I'm 370 posts behind! (((Grrrr))))
Its time you begin to pay fine , Cielo!
they rec’d food stamps.
Lonnie Starr says:
February 13, 2013 at 1:00 pm
There’s also the problem of GZ having to show that the attack he claims he suffered, was reasonably believed to be deadly, and not just claimed to be deadly, there is a big difference.
Someone pounding on you with their bare hands and no combat training at all, is hardly going to be what jurors will believe is a “reasonably deadly attack”. As a general rule, fist fights, so rarely result in deaths, or even serious injury, they aren’t even prohibited by very serious sanctions at law.
Think about it. I you attack someone with your bare hands and/or fists, you are not charged with attempted murder, as you would be if you used a knife, a gun or other weapon.
GZ is trying to push the idea that Trayvon’s bare hands were deadly. Does anyone think that an unarmed Trayvon, if attacking anyone with only his bare hands or fists, would be charged with attempted murder by a officer who came to the scene? The desk Sargent or other duty officer would approve such a charge? A prosecutor would think it’s a serious matter, enough that a judge will be impressed? Or, would they tell the officer to dial it back?
@Lonestar
Ah your missing the point It was the cement dogwal an continual BANGING BANGIN BANGING So that he felt his head would explode.
And he didnt know he was hitting him bare fisted because it felt like he had bricks in his hands.
An this is the dillema he was faced with .
Death by dogwalk imminent diperdom .
Some might argue a fate worse than death.
At least shellie would given size of his but.
Would have to use large bath towells diepers wouldnt cover it.
Anyway this was foggens mind set when he was forced to pull the trigger.
Yep, but my point is, GZ can believe whatever he wants about any particular attack. If you threw a plate of spaghetti at him, he could say he thought that was a deadly attack.
But the law, however, says that what is a reasonable deadly attack, must be from the view of the judge or the jurors, not from the view of the subject.
So, for GZ pleas to work, the judge or the jury must see and believe that Trayvon’s attack was a deadly attack and that it’s reasonable to think so.
GZ seems to think that the only way the law has to weigh his claims is to take his assumptions as true.
He does not want to face the fact that his offers are placed in the hands of jurors who may not believe that he was in any danger of being killed or greatly harmed. Maybe if Trayvon had picked up the sidewalk and hit him with it, then yes, he’d have been right. Or, if Trayvon had picked him up bodily and slammed him down on the sidewalk, then maybe. But just to have him fall and then be pushed down against the sidewalk, I don’t see how anyone can believe that would kill an adult male rabble rouser/bar bouncer who was angry and weighed 204 pounds. So, the claimed attack doesn’t even seem deadly, before we discover TM had no dna on his hands.
All the TESTAMENTARY data has been corrupted by the fact that when Fogen was first making up his stories (and neighbors were being “interviewed” by police), there were pre-arranged assumptions by pretty near all concerned that there was no real crime committed and that any old thing would pass muster to make this case go away. At the same time, however, all the NON-TESTAMENTARY data (physical evidence, voice recordings, more careful interviews and actual sworn depositions) remains not only uncorrupted but pretty much uncorruptible. That is why the defense is backed up against the wall, and on that wall, the writing already appears:
Your kingdom has been weighed in the real balances
AND * FOUND * LACKING.
Your days are numbered.
Your kingdom will be [divided between the Medes and the Persians?] turned over to the Department of Corrections of the Great State of Florida.
NEXT…
= = = = = = = = = = = =
BTW, something I have been thinking about for a long time but never got around to typing out. There IS no such thing in Florida law as a “regular” or “traditional” self-defense hearing, unless I am very much mistaken. Self-defense is a defense to a conviction, but it is an affirmative defense that gets presented like all other defenses, at trial. The reason there began to be hearings BEFORE trials was that the newer, separate, SYG laws provided for separate hearings before trials, at which point, if a judge determined that there was a SYG defense, there would BE no trial. Traditional self-defense does not call for a separate hearing.
So what IS this hearing that O’Mara allegedly wants? If there is no procedure set forth for it under FLorida law, how can he get it?
I frankly don’t think it’s legally permissible. Otherwise EVERY violent crime will have to go through two stages even if the SYG law does not apply to them. In other courts in other states, if a certain law calls for a hearing (competency hearings, mental state hearings, evidentiary hearings, etc. etc. etc.), there is a provision for the way the court is to conduct that kind of hearing. Precedent. Only SYG gives that kind of hearing in Florida as far as I know.
I’m just sitting here waiting for Fogen’s claim of acute mental illness to roll in so he can get the trial put off. Just sittin here…
Lonnie, if you threw a plate of spaghetti at Fogen he WOULD have a right to fear great bodily injury or imminent death. Spaghetti is a well-known symbol used by the Mano Nero and he would naturally realize that his life was being threatened and need all that security reinstated but there’s no money boo hoo and he would suffer superhero pasta-assault disorder and need to get that ankle bracelet off so he could go to Arizona (or somewhere) to recover…
Every event in FogenPhooles life has the same garbage. It wasn’t my fault, they did it first, I didn’t know they were cops, I was attacked, she’s mean to me, that mean old dog scared me, yada, yada, yada.
I’m sure I can find a clever use for macaroni however if he’s got a case with spaghetti….just sayin’
It’s an old mafia tactic…..strangulation by thrown spaghetti….similar to Asian Throwing Stars
Damn !! Just how far down his throat do you have to throw it. Why not just one big Meaty Beaty Big ‘n Bouncy Meatball ??
fogen would see the meatball as a donation of food from one of his supporters……..and swallow it…..
“I’ll take “Will fogen end up as marinara sauce” for $5,000 Alex”
Soooooooo if I send him a Meaty Beaty Big ‘n Bouncy Meatball, do I get a signed thank you card, or does it depend on if he chokes on it. Hey, these are real questions……
I sent him my two cents… Literally! Now I’ll wait and see if I get a thank you card, too.
Sent from my iPod
I know of some who have PayPal ‘d him a nickle because it cost him like $5.00 to process it. I won’t give him the sweat off my XXXX just on principal but if that really is the case I say we drive him to bankruptcy by donating our 0.02 cents on a daily basis.
I’m pretty sure it’s in the budget. Then again I can send him something from my business. Be a real cool write off…….
Paypal has a basic charge of 30 cents on the receivers end for each transaction…..and then 2.95% on the balance of the money………therefor if you send him 2 cents via paypal….and it’s accepted and not returned…..then fogen’s account is debited 28 cents for the transaction.
A hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahaha !!!!!!!
-.28 cents……Hey FogenPhoole…..lets talk about who has the last laugh A hahahahahahahahahahaha
I have 3 personalized thank you cards in my collection so far….so on top of the 28 cents add the price of the personalized card & postage…….
See how much fun stamp collecting & postal history can be now Race?
I’m sold !! At this rate he’ll be broke in no time and the best part is that Pay Pal is on autopilot. By the time he realizes what is going on, he’ll be eligible for parole !! Xena sent you an invitation to her blog. Jump on in man, we have a good time there as well. In fact we have an entire music library there of rewrites !! Carry on wayward son…Iron Man and one just for SheLie….
So he suffers from SPAD??? How could I have missed it? Sure, in that case off with the bracelet and let him head for the hills. NOT!
“Superhero Pasta-Assault Disorder”, yeah, right!
A small locked room, me, FogenPhoole and one large frozen Meaty. Beaty, Big ‘n Bouncy Meatball……..you do the math.
My dearest Malisha- you are SO weird!
Sent from my iPod
“Weird” is good…….
“Deranged” is not good
racerodrig
trouble behind trouble ahead to the tune of .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig3GcDBjQN4
i started to do that one but went with another song. Looks like I have requests for Casey Jones. MMP sent me a great line to use so I guess I’ll get on this.
I love this song so……..
Is there a way to watch the Bill Maher interview if I don’t have cable? Will it be on the internet somewhere?
Rachel, don’t know for sure, but it may be available may be able to get it on through the HBO page for realtime, starting here to pick your country.
http://www.hbo.com/real-time-with-bill-maher/index.html
They show some video links, don’t know when or how they work., maybe posted after the show.
I’m not sure about Maher with junior, I like Maher but there’s nothing comic about Trayvon’s killing, so thinking they may talk about guns. Maher may not be hard ball enough to be anything but softer on the killing issue and junior’s ‘big’ brother’s actions and attitudes and lies.
I may wait for a review
(may have to, no cable either!)
I’ve got satellite but, I don’t have any of the premium channels but they do offer them half price for 6 months. I had thought about getting HBO just for a couple of days in order to see this circus of this media whore but, I can’t stand the sight of him or his lying murdering brother so I will pass on that. this POS needs to stop getting in front of a TV camera lying for his brother.
Fogen killed a child in cold blood and, he has been lying about the events of that night every since. him sitting in court crying last Tuesday, is just the beginning of his crying for himself. he will shed many many tears as he sits in his prison cell thinking about how he got to this point in his life. his tears are not for the young life that he took, his tears are only for himself.
I’m interested in this interview for on reason (yes, ideally my preference would be for Jr to shut up) and that is because I believe corporate journalists have been and are so lame that the comedians are more cabable and likely to do the journalists’ work. Jr might as well be confronted with a real interview instead of being treated with kid gloves.
Robert Zimmerman on the Bill Maher Show – Feb 15, 2013
http://zimmerman-vs-martin.blogspot.com/2013/02/robert-zimmerman-on-bill-maher-show-feb.html
Nope, just a vanilla talk.
Thanks for the link Lonnie. Bill Maher was definitely softballing RZJ. I loved the audience for applauding when Bill Maher made points about the hoodie and the fight without GZ’s gun would have been just a fight with one guy losing.
Other than that, Maher let a lot slide, including GZ getting his head beat on cement and the diagnosis by a “doctor” of a broken nose which there is no evidence of.
I would like to see Toure interview RZJ in depth and take the time to dissect RZJ’s double-talk answers.
Dan Q.~ In the days of old where kings held court, only the king’s jester could say the truth. It seems those days have returned.
Many of Maher’s clips seem to surface online.
Professor, you may have already addressed this question earlier, but if so, I missed it.
What are the rules governing evidence discovery in general, and in FL in particular, if you know? More specifically, does the prosecution have to turn over the information from Trayvon’s phone on the day of his death if it’s not exculpatory for the defendant, or can it be kept for use in rebuttal?
Florida Rules of Criminal Procedure:
http://www.floridabar.org/tfb/tfblegalres.nsf/d64b801203bc919485256709006a561c/e1a89a0dc5248d1785256b2f006cccee
Scroll down under “Florida Rules of Procedure” and select “Criminal.” In the PDF, look for the bookmark, “Discovery.”
Thanks, groans. It looks to me like the info would be discoverable under the rules regarding experts and tests.
It also opened up a new question in my mind about whether one reason for the defendant’s decision to involve himself in discovery was for the purpose of being present during depositions and intimidating witnesses who are being deposed – DeeDee, for example.
@elcymoo: Fortunately there’s a rule addressing defendants’ presence at depositions, probably because of the concern you raise.
I should have said “probably PARTLY because of the concern you raise.” I’d guess other reasons might be related to the fact that many of the defendants might be in jail – either held without bond, or unable to bond out.
There are three categories of evidence that the prosecution must disclose to the defense.
First, the prosecution must disclose all exculpatory evidence within its custody, possession or control. Judges and lawyers refer to this category of evidence as Brady material because the SCOTUS established this rule in Brady v. Maryland.
Second, it also must provide the defense with a list of the witnesses that it intends to call during its case in chief at the trial and a list of the exhibits that it intends to introduce into evidence. The term “witnesses” applies to police and experts as well as civilians. The prosecution also has to turn over all reports and statements prepared by its witnesses.
Third, it must turn over all statements obtained from the defendant as well as all search warrants to search his property, affidavits for those search warrants and inventories of items seized.
The prosecution is not required to identify the witnesses that it intends to call during its rebuttal case until after the defense rests. This rule recognizes that the prosecution must wait and see what evidence the defense introduces before it can decide whether to put on a rebuttal case.
How does the distinction between rebuttal and other evidence work in a case like this where the open questions are less about the killing as such and more about self defense? How does evidence that addresses the criteria for self defense fit into this?
Does the prosecution set out to prove that is was “2nd degree murder and not self defense” from the start or do they initially present evidence only for second degree murder and deal with a possible (read: inevitable) claim of self defense in rebuttal?
For the sake of completeness this would probably be a good place to note the “work product” exclusions as well.
Yup will get posted on youtube
Probably has his own website where you can veiw it a day later or at least the network he broadcasts with .
Just google it something shoud direct you
unless someone knows the site.
FactsFirst says:
February 13, 2013 at 9:38 am
off topic, but I heard some GPS systems have their own battery and can record voices even if the phones battery is dead or not in it.. Is that true? If so then could there be voices captured on Trayvon’s phone GPS? hmmmmm
Your talking about a satalite phone that could or should have that capabilaty.
Those are the type of phone explores take into the jungle amaon ect.
Places that dont have normal cell coverage.
Also they work of satttaltes in space so you can talk to some one any where in the world.
I think they stert at a pricre range of ten thousand dollars.
They also have the gps an the back up gps system you mention even if main battery dies
Its a saftey feature as it akso sends a singnal locatinig you exact cordinates.
Round the world yaughtsmen like them as there more relliable than radios for talking to loved ones.
Doubt foggen had one but could come in usefull if he wants to flee
An live in the Amaon with a tribe deep in the jungle
With a bit of luck for us an them
They turn out to be caniballs.
New thought:
1. Both DeeDee and Jenna (during her FDLE -I think- inyerview) say they heard a man say “What’re you doin’….” Jenna said it sounded like someone who was drunk, and DeeDee said it sounded like an “old man.” Jenna said she had the impression of about 4 men outside.
2. Racerrodig mentions the possibility of someone in the background on Jenna’s 911 recording saying “keep ‘em down”? or “kill ‘em now”
3. Mark Osterman for weeks kept GZ and SZ very close, right in his house. He advised GZ from the moment they left the police station together and encouraged GZ to do the interviews, to do the reenactment with himself right there. Why? Because MO bears some responsibility for this murder, but GZ is the one prosecuted. Dirty Mark is deeply involved.
Could he have been acting like some kind of director? He might have held the victim for Z. He was right there! Was he helping GZ become a “made man” (in Osterman’s eyes)? Why is he so deeply involved, and what was his involvement?
You have it nailed. There is a lot more going on here than an aborted shopping trip.
There’s something fishy as Deedee was told that it was a creepy old white man
Not arguing that Fogenhats aint creepy or considered old, but the white man part… that is where you think Ostertrench or Taffe may be involved somehow…
For example, how would Taffe know intimate details like “Trayvon did not answer Fogenhats properly” or he would not have gotten it
The Chief Zidiots, Papa Z, Mama Z, Jr, Taaffe, Osterman & Oliver all speak in 1st person or as if they saw the entire thing and God help you if you ask “…were you there…” especially JO Jr…..uhhhh.
The best part is that all of the have a slightly to very different version compared to FogenPhoole and each other.
Note to the Zidiot Nation……post what “Version of the Day” you plan to use so we won’t have so much material to beat you up with.
I’ll take “Inconsistent & Preposterous Statements” for $5,000.00 Alex
That’s a very good question, since everyone else seems to be able to identify GZ as a Hispanic guy, even when it’s so dark they can’t see what clothes they’re wearing, eh?
Jun, DeeDee was not TOLD the voice she heard was from an old creepy white man, SHE described the voice that way. “Creepy” and “white” she had already heard from Trayvon when he was telling her about being followed. She then heard, “Whatchoo doin’ ‘roun here?” and believed the voice to be “old.” Listen to Fogen’s voice, though; he sounds OLD. He sounds old and frail unless he’s reading a prepared statement.
I believe Osterman was behind the wheel of the vehicle that tore out of that complex like a bat out of HELL. he IMO was there because, he got there very quick for him to have been at his home when ShelLie’s called him. Osterman’s actions on Dr. Phil’s show was that of a man with something to hide. he seemed to be very nervous IMO and, this is why I say he is hiding something and, he was sticking to Fogen like stink on S**T trying to make sure that he didn’t say something out of the scope of the script.
I think he was with forgen as well and he threw the keys to the dog sign and ran away. But then why woould he write a book. If I was involved in any way, I would not write a book. Telling a different version that was forrgen told cops.
@Erica
There are witnesses who saw GZ walk towards the T after he got off Trayvon’s back. Jon took photos; one of GZ’s tactical flashlight, one of Trayvon’s dead body, and one of the back of GZ’s head, . Notice that the lighting in the photo of GZ’s head is much better than the lighting of the other two photos.
Jon used the key chain flashlight to give him more light in taking the photo of GZ’s head. Smith arrived and Jon dropped the key chain flashlight, no doubt to prevent Smith from thinking it was a weapon. Smith then asked “Who shot him?” Smith would have no reason to ask one man (GZ) that question had GZ been standing alone.
Unfortunately there isn’t any clear evidence that Oysterman was involved, hence justice won’t be touching him on this evil crime.
Sent from my iPod
“Unfortunately there isn’t any clear evidence that Oysterman was involved, hence justice won’t be touching him on this evil crime.”
Do not make any bets that cost more than a pizza on the last 10 words of your comment.
Race….
And what do you think the odds are that fogen will throw his accomplices under the bus once he knows he’s going down?
The probability is about……oh……..95% someone else takes a dive.
Yeah….I tend to agree……..I can just see fogen on the stand and start with the “We were” and “Then they told me to”
Again making himself the victim. This time of a conspiracy.
Knowing that the phone records are a major factor, I’m thinking Osterman was there. I think he goaded FogenPhoole into being the tough guy. I think SheLie “nags” him into trying to prove something. I think Osterman was out to get one over on the Sanford police as revenge for being fired and used a weak willed and easily manipulated FogenPhoole and it all backfired.
As a life long pathological liar GZ can only play this to bust! After the verdict and before sentencing, he may realize that he’s lost all his leverage and needs to create some new leverage before the lights go out completely forever. If not, then it’s possible that after he’s had a few weeks of real prison life, a few months down the road, he’ll probably start thinking of talking. If I understand correctly Florida Prisons aren’t exactly award winners, but it will take some time for him to realize that this is the rest of his life if he doesn’t do something fast.
Trouble is, if he has anything on any of the big players, like Chief Lee or Wolfinger or SPD members, there’s a very big risk of him being tagged as a “snitch” to place his life in jeopardy. It’s very unhealthy to be known as a snitch in prison, so the big boys can use that threat to keep the evidence against them (if any) hidden. If GZ figures this out, he’ll realize he has to move fast once the verdict is in.
Without question, he’ll have to make a move before the trial. After that the State won’t care what he has to say. The slimmest of chances during the trial but if the trial is going aces for the state he can talk all he wants, they won’t care. Lee & Wolfinger will have problems even if FogenPhoole says nothing…..Trust Me !!
Right you are, investigations are ongoing and while MOM is able to continue creating false hope, everyone’s keeping their mouths shut tight. Right now the spotlight does not seem to be on them and the charges are narrowly drawn. But that could change in a heart beat.
Oh, Racer or anyone else? Has anyone got or seen a picture of Ransberg? We saw a mug shot of Burgess, but I haven’t seen anything on Ransberg. In fact we don’t even have a first name for him, but I thought I saw an address go whizzing by in the past, I’ll have to look again. I think he’s in Colonial Village somewhere behind GZ.
I read the article you had the link for that had Ransberg in it. I find it odd he, at the ripe old age of 20, is a homeowner. I’m going to look into that one form a higher angle.
Let me say this about betting on others being charged……where’s SheLie ?? Taaffe’s been kind of quiet too….
They could be very worried if Ransberg was at the 711, that could cause the SP to go hunting for that phone the police took on February 7th 2012, or demand that they turn over the data they extracted from it. It was, after all, the SPD that claimed that phone was being used to move stolen merchandise. Wouldn’t it be funny if GZ’s number or email address turned up on it?
Something smells rotten in Sanford.
“Funny how…..” as in A hahahaha or funny like, I knew it, isn’t that funny !! I’m tellin ya…..phone records, phone records, phone records.
As I said I think I found a first name for Ransberg. In a Tampa Bay Times article, the reporter says he identified himself as Thomas Ransberg. The reporter says that he’s a 20 year old black man with dreadlocks and a home owner in RATL. In fact, in the article he points to a door and tells the reporter “I tell all the kids if they ever have trouble they can knock on my door right there (points) and I’ll be there to help. Too bad the reporter doesn’t give any locations.
@Xena
Didn’t think of that, but the keychain in my view is not there as a result of any altercation. In his reenactment, he stated the altercation stated the altercation started nowhere close to where the keychain was found. The keychain is a mystery.
My thoughts
- Trayvon’s screams are so filled with hopelessness and the crime scene is so open, that I immediately assumed he was being attacked or restrained by more than one person, the very first time I heard the tape.
-George thinks his accomplices will take care of him and make sure he does not go to jail, h should remember the same maxim that applied to Trayvon, “DEAD MEN TELL NO TALES”, and watch his back in the company of his accomplices.
-I will say it again, I am of the firm conviction that something much more sinister took place that night then we are being told or are willing to conceive.
I can only hope that the DA is interested in the truth and not just appeasing the crowd.
Yes, I do believe you are correct. Remember, if GZ has support with him, they don’t actually have to do anything other than stand by and watch. Just by doing nothing they show whose side they’re on and that makes Trayvon realize just how useless resistance is. If “white tee shirt” for example is standing by in the cut through, just out of sight of the eye witnesses but where Trayvon can see him, that’s a terrible threat to TM. After GZ fires the shot, stands up and backs away, white tee shirt rushes forward to check the body and is briefly seen, he quickly withdraws. The witness who saw it thinks she’s seeing things. We can’t tell because we don’t know how long the intervals are for this witness. We don’t think there should be anyone else around or involved. Of course, we don’t have any good reason for thinking that way, except for the suggestion that it was that way.
All eyes are drawn to GZ and the body, while there could have been any number of people with GZ out there, who any witnesses would simply think are neighbors who they don’t know. Before the police arrive in any great numbers, these people can simply walk away and never be seen or heard from again. Even when the police begin canvassing, they can still say they just got there and have no idea what happened. Drawn by the sirens and flashing lights, who’s to disbelieve them?
you are thinking on all cylinders
but that cry…that cry tells me that they made their affiliations crystal clear
Yes, so with witnesses being so unclear about time, we can’t really know how much time elapsed from the gunshot until “white tee shirt” is seen, let alone where he went. The only person so far that wears white tee shirts habitually is Ranesburg. And there was a witness who said that someone, after the gunshot, came running north. That would leave one more black guy unaccounted for, since Ranesburg travels with two guys now that Burgess is in jail.
I’m pretty sure that’s him and his boys who met Trayvon at 711. I’ve looked at the video and it seems to be telling me that Trayvon was waiting outside the store for them to arrive. TM leaves the store and waits outside for perhaps 30 seconds or so, before a car pulls up and these guys come into the store. So then, why doesn’t TM start walking back east immediately when he leaves the store? Isn’t that what he would do if he wasn’t meeting someone?
Of course, if you were meeting someone then of course you would wait for them. The fact that he didn’t have to wait long means very little. He should have been on his way east and they should have had to call him back, if they weren’t planning to meet. So, that means they’re the ones who lured TM out of his house, for this rainy night trip to the store.
who are these two guys? the fellows at 7/11?
In the burglary reports we read about this Emmanuel Burgess. We discover that he stole a laptop from Dreamcis on 2/6/12 and he’s seen hanging around with three other guys on 2/7/12. The police respond and search the guys. In the backpack of a guy named Ransburg they find Dreamcis laptop, Burgess claims it as his, says he brought it last night, then runs away. He’s caught in the next community over where Ransburg lives, and he’s taken in and violated on his parole. So, now Ransburg has only two black crew members left. That’s three right? Now look at the 711 video.
There’s one white guy and two blacks, unless I miss my guess that’s Ransburg and what’s left of his crew.
Note how the hide their faces. Note how Ransburg can’t resist unfurling his braids and showing them on the cctv. Why? Does he have some clue that this video is going to be widely viewed?
Burgess lives in that last row of buildings just south of the east gate. His place has a excellent view of the entire dog walk corridor. Exactly what you’d want as a neighborhood thief. This groups specialty seems to be entering through open doors or windows or breaking glass to open an enter. They mainly steal electronics, like computers smart phones, ipad, iphones and jewelry.
The stolen computer is worth 3,000 so what’s it doing in Ransberg’s backpack? Is he the gang leader? Does he know GZ? Is GZ the fence using eBay? Is GZ po’d because he needed that laptop and they lost it? Could they have lied to him, and told him it was stolen from them by another gang? When GZ got made and threatened to put them all in jail, they then told him “hey there’s the dude whose gang stole the computer from us”.
All speculation of course, I don’t even know if that is Ransberg at the 711, I’m just guessing that it might be. It certainly seems that Trayvon was not finished his business there, so that’s probably why he leaves the store and doesn’t immediately start walking home. Sure enough a car pulls up and seconds later these three enter the store with their faces covered. http://tinyurl.com/che8csw
I think there’s one of those “funny coins” on the floor. It’s a coin that’s either been crazy glued to the floor, or nailed to a wood counter, that tempts people to try to pick it up. Hours of amusement for clerks working the night shift at convenience stores nation wide. Tells me Trayvon doesn’t go to these kinds of stores very often, if at all. He walks back, to where the sight of that coin has been bugging him, he attempts to pick it up, then tries to act nonchalant when he fails. I see this all the time, they’re pretty common.
He walks to the front and out the door and just stands there for about 25 to 30 seconds before the car pulls in.
oh the burglary kids
got it
will read rest and comment later
Good I’ll be waiting to read your remarks, they’re always useful. I may have found a first name for Ransberg, it could be Thomas according to a Tampa Bay Times article that was pulled. The article which I found and posted on my evidence pile, says he’s black with dreadlocks and a 20 year old RATL homeowner. Obviously someone lied and TBT reporter just lapped it up. This Ransberg sounds to me like a white, black wannabe. Did you know that there are white people who want to be black? Yep, I’ve even run into a few over the years.
Agree, he had accomplices.
Lonnie,
You did not answer my earlier question. If Ransberg knew that something was going to happen concerning Trayvon, why would that cause him to want to show off for the video camera, as you claimed?
Oh, wow, I thought you were joking.
Okay, let’s try this… If he knew something was going to happen, involving Trayvon, then he would think that the store videos would be pulled. If the store video would be pulled, then which parts of the videos would the police and/or the media be interested in?
You guessed it, the parts closest to Trayvon’s attendance at the store.
So, if he has a clue, then wouldn’t it be a great chance to get on tv by simply performing in these few minutes? After all, no one knows who you are and they can’t connect you with Trayvon, because he’s not on camera with you.
If that’s what he was thinking, he was exactly right eh? millions of people across the nation and around the world are going to see him shaking out his braids on youtube and in the media.
Of course, he’s got to know that whatever it is, is going to be more serious than just a little incident, eh? Police don’t pull videos for minor stuff like that, so then, why are they hiding their faces? Why is Trayvon waiting out side for them to come out, before he starts back to home? In fact, why do they only pull up, after Trayvon comes out of the store? And why does Trayvon wait 30 seconds for them to pull up?
If Trayvon wasn’t there to meet with them, when he left the store with his purchases, he should have immediately started back east, having nothing more to do in the area! The fact that he didn’t do that, and he waited until these guys came out of the store before he left, says they had business together. What it was, we do not know, but it’s safe to say that they are the reason that Trayvon left home for the store on a rainy Sunday night without telling anyone, not even DD what he was up to.
All Trayvon told DD was that he was going to the store to get Chad some skittles. Chad, on the other hand said that Trayvon told him, that he was going to the store and asked him if he wanted anything, he told Trayvon he wanted skittles. So, Trayvon had some reason that he wanted to go to the store for and it was a reason he didn’t want to share with anyone.
If these three know GZ, it’s very possible that GZ told them he was planning to do something serious to Trayvon that night. It is possible that these boys blamed or instigated GZ to go after Trayvon, instead of directing his anger at them. It would also mean that they are the trackers.
Yes and don’t forget Taaffe said “he should have answered the questions!”
Trayvon could answer any questions because he had no idea what he was talking about.n he lived 250 miles away in Miami.he knew nothing about any crimes in that neighborhood. Do you think he was killed because he couldn’t answer the questions
@kllypyn.
GZ killed Trayvon because Trayvon’s screams for help brought the attention of residents. GZ pulled his gun, but that didn’t stop Trayvon from crying out. As GZ told Hannity, he was terrorized with the thought that the cops would arrive and find him standing there with his gun in his hand. When GZ says he was out of time, that is what he is referring to.
Trayvon had no answers to any questions, nor did anyone have any right to ask him any questions. Only Taaffe and GZ think they had a right to ask questions and get answers.
If that’s the case, then what kind of answers were they seeking? What kind of questions did they have to ask? They must have thought those answers were pretty darned well important to kill for not getting them, eh? Maybe Taaffe should be sent to Camp X-Ray for questioning? lol
Here’s hoping that all of this is going to come out during the trial and, also that who ever else is involved in this will be arrested on the spot. Osterman IMO definitely was involved in this murder in some way.
Investigation Discovery, if you don’t get it on tv, there’s a program on racial profiling on the website (US).
http://investigation.discovery.com/tv-shows/injustice-files/videos/hood-of-suspicion-xtras-the-impacts-of-racial-profiling.htm
Another Trayvon Martin video with Bill Maher.
Happy Valentine’s Day Everyone!!
You too!
U2 … (Also, kimmi, left you a response on how many jurors. I was mistaken on a couple of points.)
No problem, thank you! It was one of the things I learned here.
I thought, until this case, juries always had 12 people, which was much to my suprise. I still haven’t checked to see how that compares with other states. Where I am, (MI), I think it is 12, but I’m not really sure anymore. I might try to research that after I get to the end of this page, if I can get to it before the daughter gets home from school.
I tried researching the number of jurors for the different states, and it seems like most states have 12 jurors for criminal cases.
I’m all confuzzled why Florida would only have 6, as I was before, and I don’t quite understand the differences from state to state.
Oh well, it must be a decision left up to each state, I guess.
They only use 12 if the death sentence is involved
IIRC~ it’s 12 for a Murder One. 6 for everything else. GZ is being tried for Murder Two. Hence only 6 needed.
________________________________
Racerrodig, yes that is true in Florida, 12 for capital cases, but states w/o capital murder (death penalty), like MI, use 12 jurors.
Maybe that is the difference?
The states with the death penalty use 6 jurors for criminal cases, 12 for capital murder, whereas, states like MI, (w/o death penalty), use 12 jurors for criminal cases?
Maybe we figured it out!!
I found this a few ago, although still nothing for each state.
GENERAL PRINCIPLES IN CRIMINAL TRIALS
“[B] Required Number of Jurors – Although a jury composed of as few as six persons is constitutional [Williams v. Florida, 399 U.S. 78 (1970)], the current requirement in federal criminal trials is that a jury must be composed of twelve persons [Fed. R. Crim. P. 23(a)] Many states likewise require a 12-person jury in criminal trials.”
http://www.lexisnexis.com/lawschool/study/outlines/html/crim/crim02.htm
It would be nice if it were standardized in all states.
This is the problem I see with Omara’s argument regarding the difference between SYG and what he calls traditional self defense hearing
a) There is less flexibility with the self defense law written beforehand
b) The way he is interpreting the law, the victim, Trayvon, would have absolutely no rights whatsoever, for simply trying to avoid the aggravated stalking of the defendant
I say this because, let us say Trayvon did pin the defendant on the ground and then yell for help. The SYG specifically states that one is allowed to use reasonable force to defend themselves. From the evidence, the incident started when the defendant decided to target and stalk the victim. The victim tried a reasonable means by running away to avoid the situation. The victim thought he lost the defendant, so he decides to walk. Soon, he notices that the defendant is about to catch up to him, so the victim tries to escape again. The victim soon gets worn out and tries to talk his way out of the situation by asking “why the defendant was stalking him”. The defendant once he catches the victim confronts him and lets him know the victim, according to him, has no right to walk down the street or avoid him or be around anywhere walking down the street, which is translated from his “What are you doing around here?” really angrily. The defendant than attacks the victim, to which the victim is heard saying and telling the defendant to “get off him”.
Obviously, even without any fighting training, the victim tries to get away, by yelling for help, and trying to get the defendant off of him…
I honestly feel w6 is lying, because the forensics do not show the defendant ever being reasonably on his back for any amount of time, and even then, maybe 1 second on his back, but that is being generous, considering his back contained no debris or grass smears at all (grass is hard to get out of clothing)… but even if we are to believe w6, clearly by the witnesses and forensics, Fogenhats initiated and instigated the whole turn of events and then escalated the turn of events
exactly, IF fogen had shimmied himself away from the sidewalk the upperback of his jacket would SHOW that clearly, bir wrinkles and mud/grass smears because all of his and martins weight would be on that shimmying part making ground contact.
He would have also had some damage done to his jacket as well, as in tearing it in some places or there would have been some shredding of his jacket. a liar is a dangerous person and, Fogen is both.
Right, Jun, and that’s what Fogen and his Outhousers and Chief Lee and Mouth Mahaney (et al.) really MEAN: Trayvon Martin was inferior and was not entitled to protection or respect. Thus, when Fogen sought to nail him and tail him, his was not to question why. His was not to “run” or to “get away” or to “mouth off [Lee's words! I believe]” or to fight back in any way, shape or form. He was not allowed to “savagely attack” his natural superior! He was required to scrape and bow and say, in effect, “Yassuh, what is it that I have done to displease you massa?”
Why didn’t he know that?
He didn’t know that because it is a secret code, not public information. Up until 1865 it WAS public information in the South but now it is a secret code. And if you allude to that secret code, you are being a “reverse racist.” As Maher says, denying racism is the new racism.
Trayvon Martin has been branded (postmortem, to the everlasting shame and disgrace of all who take part in it) a thug because he (allegedly) tried to defend his own life. He was, according to them, not allowed to try that. Under any circumstances.
And this is what we are fighting. Liars and murderers who have their own twisted view of the world and they have guns. OMG.
Do you think Omara is consulting with Bill Lee or that guy who supposedl named his son after fogen’s father and are they witnesses in the trial. Sorry I’m very bad with names.
http://www.campusreform.org/blog/?ID=4604&utm_source=Conservative+Daily+News+Weekly+Letter&utm_campaign=474dea3d7f-MC_NEWSLTR_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email
Award for Trayvon
That’s a great thing to be honest. I’ve talked about Trayvon being a reason to get this racist ideology stopped and outlawed.
By the way, notice the racist comments on that site…..They’ll never get it……….Never.
You can’t outlaw an ideology.
You CAN punish murder.
You MUST punish cover-ups of murder instituted because of racist ideology in official places.
You can punish those who commit crimes based on ideology however, which is what I really meant. Like the KKK, Neo – Nazi’s and the like.
May I just say imho because God knows that’s all I have.I personally don’t believe one thing fogen said describing what happened.I believed he walked over saw Trayvon strolling down the path went back towards his truck was angry because the teenager was no longer afraid.I think he went down between the houses on the same side as his truck then was not far behind TM Thats when TMtold DeeDee he was follow him again.fogen confronted Trayvon.When Trayvon saw the gun he began runnig north fogen caught up.TM screaming.fogen murdered him.Probably makes no sense with evidence.
I believe in six things Fogen said, namely:
a. “he is a black male”
b. “he is running”
c. “he ran”
d. “I don’t know where this KID is”
e. “Yes” (in response to “are you following him?”)
f. “I shot him”.
The rest is fantasy.
Good flash story!
Since about June I’ve been saying that there are only 2 things Fogen has said about this event we know are true not including the obvious which you have as a. b. c. d. & e.
1) “…and then I got out of my truck…”
2) “…I drew my firearm, aimed and fired one shot” (stupid shoulder
shrug)
I believe in six things Fogen said, name
a. “he is a black male”
b. “he is running”
c. “he ran”
d. “I don’t know where this KID is”
e. “Yes” (in response to “are you following him?”)
f. “I shot him”.
The rest is fantasy.
We could add “…I was on him…”
There are thousands of pages of documentation, statements, reenactments, interviews etc and there are 7 things we agree are the truth, 8 if we agree “…I was on him..” is valid and I see no reason to dispute that. I will defer to you on #8
FogenPhoolePhantsy…..damn straight.
I hope that Judge Nelson doesn’t grant the ‘emergency’ meeting that the defense is requesting because they had plenty of time on February 5th to request any items that they wanted.
The defense also wants to pressure Judge Nelson to make a decision on whether Crump’s affidavit is adequate to exempt him from being deposed.
I doubt that Judge Nelson will appreciate the defense attempting to bully her about this matter since they have been dragging their feet and have canceled a majority of the scheduled hearings.
If Judge Nelson does grant the emergency request she should force the defense to bring the CD’s that the state gave them and force them to play them in court to make sure they are blank and the defense isn’t bullchitting again.
According to the Orlando Sentinel, Judge Nelson is holding the hearing today.
I read that it’s only 30 minutes though.
She shouldn’t give them the time of day because they have cancelled so many previously scheduled hearings.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/oscar-pistorius-reportedly-had-arsenal-at-home-to-allay-fear-of-invasion-122246774.html
Another interesting shooting. Not Fogen related though. Just sad.
New youtube video of recent evidence analysis http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMBloodStain_zps35b8e69f.jpg
wrong link its
What an idiot. An “expert” that ignores 75% of the known forensic evidence!! I can hardly wait to see him get dismantled by the prosecution!
They’re giving him a forum to misinform millions of people. The least we can do is get over there and fill the comments section with corrections.
Actually, he’s not wrong on anything I can tell. He is MISSING a lot, but what he speaks to seems factually correct.
Of course, the gap between the t shirt and hoodie could also have been caused by Fogen pulling with his other hand, while illegally trying to detain the youth, as he himself spoke about in regards to the “help” he claims he was asking for.
I’ll not make judgements about his book until I read it. But channel six did a good job, and it also looks like they threw in two new shots from the night of the shooting – one showing the “pseudo ridgeline” possibly over on RVC and another that may include the body but is improperly exposed.
@ willisnewton
I think you defeat your own argument when you at the same time, on the one hand argue that “ Actually, he’s not wrong on anything I can tell”, and on the other hand that “He is MISSING a lot, but what he speaks to seems factually correct”.
By the way, this “expert” did his demo standing face to face with his “victim”, both hands fully stretched and aimed at the “victim’s” heart. GZ claims that he was lying on his back with Trayvon mounted on his stomach, straddling, suffocating him, etc. Also, when the kill shot was fired, GZ’s elbow was on the ground, bent and extended to the right away from his body. From that position, GZ could not have made the same shot produced in the demo of this “expert”. There is NO SUBSTANTIVE relationship between the demo of this “expert” and the Zimmerman-scenario. Applying the results of the demo to GZ is a serious non-sequitur (no relationship between premise and conclusion; conclusion does not logically flow/follw from the premise). Based on that it is also hard to see how this “expert” “seems factually correct” (whatever you mean by that).
I’ll have to second that. Here’s an expert trying to tell us that there’s good and sufficient reason to believe the claims of the defendant, yet he’s modified his experiment to obtain the results he claims demonstrate the truth of the matter.
That is not something an “expert” should ever do. If and when any expert is caught doing this in front of a jury, the answer is swift and resounding repudiation.
What I think is happening here is, this “expert” has noted that the GZ supporters lack expert opinion. So, he’s decided that, without compromising himself too badly, he can rush in, fill the gap, and make a ton of money. I think he’s misled. He probably doesn’t realize that the 300k GZ received was a result of “bundling” by the racists. They have software they use to make it appear that huge donations really come from a large number of small donors. When, in fact, they come from a few large donors.
I expect this guy’s book will do about as well as Osterman’s. While this case has moved a huge number of eyeballs, it hasn’t moved much money at all. This is because most people don’t feel they have much power to do anything except to put their support behind the family of Trayvon and express their outrage at the way this case has been handled. I think most people today are savvy that huge public interest stories will be used to pry dollars from their hands by some individuals. So, people are not going to respond to indiscriminate reaches for their money.
Great…Osterman’s up to 7 sold.
searching mind – whatever, pal. It seems you and he both agree that Fogen was on the bottom. All I am saying is that he managed to produce a similar stipple and hole pattern by aligning the two shirts three inches apart. I find no fault with that conclusion, and in fact we see him replicate the test for tv news.
Many things are possible; what GZ claims about his MOVEMENTS is not possible. In my opinion he’s established a pattern of lying that can be extended into the missing minutes by a skillful prosecutor to enable a jury to convict him of M2.
I don’t pretend that ANY of the circumstantial evidence and forensic mumbo jumbo is anything more than fodder for almost endless argument for either side at trial. But I know it can be proven BARD that GZ did not move from clubhouse are to cut thru area in the way he described to SPD, and therefor is without credibility, and guilty of lying to investigators at minimum. He pursued the teen with his car and on foot and lies about it. Whatever route you take to “prove” the rest is fine by me.
Is this Knox guy testifying for the defense?
If I see one more book come out capitalizing off this child’s murder, I think I am going to scream. All of this should be handled in the courtroom. Why is this being allowed? I agree with Lonnie. This is creating a forum to misinform millions and taint the potential jury pool. This is just wrong. That’s why I ask, is this dude going to be an expert for the defense. If so, why is he discussing the case. I thought MOM said he would not have experts in time for trial.
I bought the kindle version of the book.
He presents a lot of information about what crime scene re-en actors do. There is a certification process but there are only about 12 in the entire country that are certified. He doesn’t claim that he is certified.
Much of the book is a summary of the evidence taken directly from the various reports. Some of it directly quoted, some of it summarized or paraphrased.
It is defendant-friendly.
* He states that first names are used for children and last names for adults. but he has a problem with people who refer to Trayvon (friendly) and Z….. (cold and unfriendly)
* He states, “If the prosecutors cannot put on a witness who saw [the defendant] attack Trayvon, the jury will have to assume [the defendant's] testimony to be true.”
* While he includes discrepancies and inconsistencies in the defendant’s account, these are included as notes in the back of the book, not in line where they can be considered with the rest of his account.
* “We do know [the defendant's] nose was broken.” Really? How? He includes nothing that justifies “know”.
* His conclusion is that the only witness who saw anything useful is witness 6 who heard the head banging, that Trayvon was on top and in control, and he uses “ground and pound” as evidence even though that statement was retracted.
* He mentions the DNA findings on the clothing but no mention of the lack of the defendant’s DNA on Trayvon’s hands.
* He mentions that Trayvon has a couple of scars but he doesn’t bother to point out that there is no evidence of bruising or cuts on Trayvon’s hands, apart from the small cut on the inside of one finger.
* Even though he includes the defendant’s discussion with Doris Singleton while waiting for the vst analyst, including the question about whether or not she has ever shot anyone and her answer, he neglects to include the defendant’s comment about her authority would never be questioned.
* In speaking about the stress test analyst: “The investigator wasn’t listening; he was trying to remember where the Zimmerman he knew during his submariner days was from.” ( analyst was navy rz was army.) Huh? How does he know that the analyst wasn’t listening or what he was thinking? No evidence was presented to support that conclusion.
* He includes the vsa analyst’s description of the vsa but when he includes a press statement about a “lie detector” statement in the press, he doesn’t bother to point out that the vsa and a lie detector are two different things. Nor does he point out the fallibility of the vsa. He does include FBI quotes that the questions were too soft to determine anything.
* “There’s no indication that Z was under the influence of alcohol or any illicit drug.” This may be a true statement but we’ll never know.
* He mentions that the clubhouse is halfway between where the defendant first saw Trayvon and the location of the shooting. I think it’s more like 25-30% of the way.
* There is no mention of Serino interview where Z claims to have a wrist lock and admits control of Trayvon.
New “catches” me
* Vsa analyst: “Before that gun’s directly aimed at his chest?”
Defendant: “Correct. I was ON HIM. I knew I was – “
* In the walk-thru, the car circling happened on Twin Trees Lane; in the Serino/Singleton interview it happened at the clubhouse. The author didn’t point out this discrepancy in the defendant’s stories.
Some conclusions he made worth noting:
* He claims the altercation started at the T based on the defendant’s key and flashlight and the 7-11 bag.
* He claims there was an additional yell for help after the shot.
Excerpt:
We know that [the defendant] went to his doctor’s office the following day and was diagnosed with ”scalp lacerations”, a broken nose, and black eyes.
Z was seen by Lindzee Folgate, a physician’s assistant at [location] Folgate noted that Z complained of “nasal pain” and was “involved in an altercation” during which “ he was assaulted, punched in the face, and shoved to the ground where his head was hit into the pavement multiple times.” “During the altercation,” Folgate noted, “he had a weapon as he is authorized to carry a firearm and he fired at the attacker, killing him….He denies [headaches], change in [visual acuity], slurred speech, dizziness, or gait abnormality.” Folgate also noted that Z admitted to “occasional nausea when thinking about the violence last night”. “No sutures needed given well approximated skin margins,” “Continue to clean with soap and water daily. We discussed the red flag symptoms that would warrant imaging given the type of assault he sustained. Given the type of trauma, we discussed that it is imperative he be seen with his Psychologist [sic] for evaluation.” “We discussed that [his nose] is likely broken, but does not appear to have septal deviation. The swelling and black eyes are typical of this injury. I recommended that he be evaluated by ent but he refused.”
End excerpt
Author’s conclusion of broken nose and elsewhere of “know” broken nose isn’t supported by “likely broken” but w/o septal deviation and no followup treatment.
Question: Can the written report get admitted as evidence? If so, it lays out the hearsay of how the defendant got his injuries. This info would be objected to as hearsay if presented by the NP during her testimony.
This “expert” is awful. Should MOM be stupid enough to hire this bozo, it will be fun watching him get destroyed on cross examination.
Sent from my iPod
The guy fails to take into account other facts in the case
a) All he has somewhat proved is that the shirt and the hoodie were 3 or more inches in front of the body when shot
b) The target he had in front of the actual target, the extra layer of clothing, had to be held firmly in place, otherwise the clothing which made contact with the muzzle during the shot, would have expelled the clothing backward into the body, and then caused other forensic traces to have taken place
c) The hoodie and undershirt had to be pulled down, and to the left, to line up the bulletholes with the wound in the chest, and to match the front to back trajectory
d) It does not conclusively prove that the shot was fired while the defendant was on his back and the victim was hovering over the defendant. All he proved was that the hoodie and undershirt had to be held firmly in front of the target to match the readings of the forensics.
@ Willisnewton
Yous said: “searching mind – whatever, pal. It seems you and he both agree that Fogen was on the bottom.”
NO, SIR! I SAID NO SUCH THING.
What is essentially said is that the demo proves the OPPOSITE of what the “expert” concluded, i.e. GZ could not have been on the bottom.GZ must have been on top OR standing face to face with GZ.
I also see other mistakes in his tests
a) There was also a piece of cardboard upon the shirt, and the gunshot went through the front and back of one shirt to get into the other, while he firmly held the cardboard piece with the shirt in front of it. The combination drastically changes the outcome
b) They noted the stippling was 2 x 2 inches, not over 2 x 2 inches
I think the major point he failed to realize is the news reporter stated “placed” and it was shown, he held the contact shot piece in front of the other
c) If the victim was leaning forward, there is another gravitational pull in effect because after being shot, the person would fall forward
thats bull crap trayvon was not leaning over him zimmerman was holding onto his shirt his shirt the bullet path through trayvon’s body show he was standing when he was shot.
This “expert” makes me question what credentials you need to call yourself an expert.
Kllypun- AND the blood trails on the back of GZs head go forward. Impossible to happen if GZ had really been on his back.
Sent from my iPod
CRANE-STATION~ TOTALLY OFF TOPIC, a little something to make you and your bird smile!
http://cuteoverload.com/2013/02/11/to-the-birdmobile/
This could have been Trayvon possibly?
http://theclicker.today.com/_news/2013/02/14/16961538-teen-wins-jeopardy-with-hilarious-risky-play?lite
Or just another young black thug that needs to be put down early to save taxpayers money?…..
Ya’ll have no idea the depths to which I loathe fogen.
I’ll take “Fabulous Game Show Winners with a Great Sense of Humor” for all the marble Alex !!!!
Oh, I don’t just loathe fogen, but his little outhouse friends too. I know that is one black 17-year-old they won’t be featuring on their blog.
God they make me sick.
@MMP, you couldn’t possible loathe him any more than I do. I think we need to form a line when it comes to the number of people who loathe this LYING, MURDERING POS. the same goes for his family as well, as far as I’m concerned. this FAT @$$ lump of NOTHING did not have to shoot this kid. he did so because he wanted to and I’m not going to believe otherwise. he had a gun and he wanted a chance to use it so, this is why he shot and killed an innocent child who was not bothering him or anybody else.
I will always believe that his BFF Osterman as well as the grand dragon Taaffe was right there when he committed his murder. what other reason are they sticking to him like stink on shit? as for some of the witnesses in that complex, there is a select few who knew exactly what was going to go down that night and, they are lying and not telling everything they know about what Fogen did to Trayvon. witness 11 knew who was screaming and why because, she was outside up until a certain point during her 911 call and it’s very telling.
“I think we need to form a line when it comes to the number of people who loathe this LYING, MURDERING POS. the same goes for his family as well, ……”
I’ll be first in line…..count on that !! They behead people in the Middle East for less than FogenPhoole did.
The clarity in the screams on the 911 call led me to believe she was at least very near an open window. When I found out her rear area was blocked off from a view of the back yard, I just couldn’t picture them being “blind” to the activities going on. (I would have been upstairs in just a couple of heartbeats) and getting a better view.
They have a balcony, I believe. I tend to think “Jeremy” was low-crawling out onto that balcony. Her saying “get in here” and “get up here” could both make sense.
Just speculatin’.
@racer, you can be first in line my friend and, I hope your Valentines Day was a very good one for you and your special someone.
Took the family out for dinner and all in all was a great day. I hope yours, and everyone here had an enjoyable Valentines Day !
I watched the teen tournament. It was an exciting end!
Leonard was great. He’s going far in life !
They showed his Mom in the audience with tears running down her cheek. I know she is so proud of her son.
The $18,000 DJ bet was unbelievably bold.
Some might say scandalous.
I do wish him well, though.
News: Zimmerman Jr appearing on the Bill Maher show on HBO, Friday at 10:00pm. Maher has been very vocal regarding this case and I expect him to literally own junior.
And I hope he then sells him at a discount.
Close out, out of business, bargain basement price at that. Like say 1 wooden nickel?
Or drop him off in the landfill…………..hey, just a suggestion.
Opppps, my bad, then the place will really stink.
I hope Bill spanks JR’s lying ass on national TV!! anything less is a complete sell out!
Make sure to get your popcorn ready in time…it is going to be an interesting show. I want Maher to own him so bad that Jr breaks down in tears. Somebody has to make that idiot realize that the only time he is ever seeing his brother again is through a glass window in a room full of felons. I wonder if they search his asshole for drugs when he goes to visit poor Fogen. LMFAO
What time is the hearing today?
4pm
Thank you.
Is anyone livesteaming the hearing?
http://www.cfnews13.com/chat.html
Thanks, Dave.
thanks Dave, hoping it’s working..
You’re both very welcome. I’m sorry it wasn’t more useful.
Live wire coverage on WESH
http://livewire.wesh.com/Event/Hearing_held_in_George_Zimmerman_case
Text updates on cfnews13
http://www.cfnews13.com/chat.html
nothing happening yet on either.
mistake, posted two links for coverage, the livewire video is still holding on a drizzly grey weather view from the courthouse
http://livewire.wesh.com/Event/Hearing_held_in_George_Zimmerman_case
text updates find it at cfnews13
Here’s a real weird thing: website showing the hearing has a caption under it claiming:
“Zimmerman’s lawyers may ask for immunity for their client at that hearing. The logistics of jury selection will also be discussed.”
Read more: http://livewire.wesh.com/Event/Hearing_held_in_George_Zimmerman_case#ixzz2Kuq3AGML
OK, wait a minute. IMMUNITY for their client at that hearing? That hearing is about their client as the DEFENDANT! Who gives a DEFENDANT immunity at a hearing on his own criminal case?
Why not just give him immunity altogether and then ask him politely if he will tell us what happened that night, how’s that?
Or do I have to go purchase a handgun so I can say, “Now I’ve seen everything!” and make it a cartoon image?
Immunity from prosecution = SYG
aussie says:Immunity from prosecution = SYG
So why is O’Mara discussing jury selection during the same hearing?
Because he knows that George won’t testify or even if he does he won’t win immunity.
In my opinion he’s admitting defeat.
defense calling Ben Crumps attny to see if he can be deposed next week
maybe problems with the feeds
Thanks for the links ay2z. Any ideas on what “rolling the immunity hearing into the trial” means?
gorget the wesh feed, not happening now
We will not have the livestream of this hearing. Bob Kealing will live tweet it below and will have a full report on WESH when it’s over.
by Kevin Clay/WESH.com Staff 1:04 PM
Read more: http://livewire.wesh.com/Event/Hearing_held_in_George_Zimmerman_case#ixzz2KuUsnJfP
anyone know where else to watch the hearing?
shannon, it’s not being covered now, they were waiting for the feed on WESH but says not happening now.
Updates by Kealing’s texts
1:16 PM
bob kealing @bobkealing
Attorneys in #GeorgeZimmerman murder case say they will need jury pool of 500. #TrayvonMartin
Read more: http://livewire.wesh.com/Event/Hearing_held_in_George_Zimmerman_case#ixzz2KuVxaNPN
bob kealing @bobkealing
#GeorgeZimmerman defense next Friday 2/22 will argue to depose #TrayvonMartin family attorney #Crump.
1:12 PM
bob kealing @bobkealing
#GeorgeZimmerman defense indicates they may seek to roll immunity hearing in to trial. For now judge sets aside two weeks 4-22 and 4-29.
1:09 PM
bob kealing @bobkealing
#GeorgeZimmerman defense asks for immunity hearing weeks of April 22 and 29 but will discuss rolling the issue in to the trial next week.
A jury pool of 500. Anyone know if that is excessive?
“A jury pool of 500. Anyone know if that is excessive?”
They have to find, in the area around where Trayvon’s death took place, people who haven’t been paying any attention to the news coverage of the case and haven’t formed any sort of opinion about it. Enough of them to seat a jury of 6, plus however many alternates they think they’ll need.
I’m thinking not so much excessive as excessively optimistic.
unitron
Sounds excessive. But then again, MOM will seek to exclude all blacks, sympathetic Hispanics, and anybody with any contact at all with teens! Yeah,500 will probably be a starter set!
Sent from my iPod
A jury made up of Afro Peruvians only…
PS Cielo….2 cents?………you didn’t?….. naughty girl
Lets face reality here people. The way this is going for FogenPhoole, I’ll bet there are 4 black moms with good jobs and 17 year old sons at home……on the jury. One children’s rights activist and one nurse.
The nurse will really be the key…..
This whole “rolling into trial” thing is interesting.
1. There’s the shift of burden of proof issue.
2. There’s the “preponderance” vs. the “beyond a reasonable doubt” issue. Which one holds?
3. There’s the who goes first issue.
4. Who decides issue – the judge or the jury.Can the judge override the jury. Is fogen going for a bench trial, now?
5. Would this really have any effect other than to render him immune from civil litigation, in the event of a “not guilty, by reason of self-defense”?
6. What’s the point of “rolling it in” when immunity grants immunity from prosecution, but a trial, by definition is a prosecution?
Is O’Mara just having one of those “My client wants to testify for you, judge, but not be cross examined by the state” fantasies?Questions, Questions, I have many questions. The main one is, has O’Mara lost his mind, or is he sly like a fox.
“6. What’s the point of “rolling it in” when immunity grants immunity from prosecution, but a trial, by definition is a prosecution? ”
He’s admitting defeat with that. He’s saying “WTF, we can’t win so keep going as I’m not getting paid anyway.”
When he looses a SYG hearing any lawyer would want time to prepare for trial. He’s basically saying “If we lose an Immunity Hearing, we have nothing anyway so what the point”
It’s a use of words to try to help them avoid looking defeated. There is no such thing as a “self-defense hearing” unless it’s a SYG. O’Mara said it’s not SYG and of course it’s not SYG. Saying he wanted a separate hearing doesn’t mean he was going to either get one or be able to make a decent presentation at one. So he has to concede that he goes to trial. At trial of course a defendant’s allowed to claim “traditional self-defense.” He’s saying he will do that — OK, big deal. “Rolling” something that doesn’t exist “into the trial” simply means he can’t make a proper showing and he won’t be able to set, prepare or use a hearing, so he’s got to choose between plea or trial. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!
I think Judge Nelson will simply say…..file a SYG Motion or off to trial we go. We DON”T make up new court procedures to placate your client…..De – nied………….for the 3rd time.
Fogenhats does not want to take the stand
His testimony does not mean crap, if it is not under oath and cross examination, therefore, it is scrutinized for credibility
If Fogenhats refuses cross examination and under oath, then his testimony is struck as meaningless and forgotten
How can Omara even have a preponderance, when he has not turned in anything of substance or submitted anything for admissibility into the SYG trial and the big trial?
Omara at the SYG, if he goes forward with it, has nothing to present except maybe 2 photographs, which do not mean much, once you look at the whole picture
Omara can not present Fogenhats’ statements for him, because, that would constitute hearsay, and none of his statements fall under any exceptions
The state can selectively submit Fogenhats’ statements whereby Omara would be unable to finish the totality
The state can also prove its case without any statements by Fogenhats at all, except the NEN, but that is present sense impression and excited utterances
As for Fogenhats’ assertions of what constitutes suspicion, then many doors are opened that cant be closed once opened, if Omara wants to go there
If Fogenhats takes the stand, all that it will add to the case, is that he is a proven bold faced liar, on top of being the killer
Yeeeeep !! Must really suck to be FogenPhoole
Please forgive me but either we are all a bunch of idiots or O’Mara is a fucking idiot for thinking that we are a bunch of idiots.
You cant roll the immunity hearing into the trial
the trial, he can claim self defense, which is an immunity hearing, but it must abide by the self defense application rules
Aggravated Stalking, uttering threats, aggravated assault, and murder is not something that is considered self defense by reasonable and sane people
typo
*isnt an immunity hearing
I would rather have a bench trial than a jury trial. It is completely evident from hundreds of cases that the jury does not always get it right. They want people on the jury who have not heard about the case. The problem is, those people they want are the same idiots who don’t pay any attention to the world around them and live in a box. Those are the most dangerous people to put on a jury. Look at what happened with the Casey Anthony trial. Casey told every lie in the book regarding her daughter’s death, yet the jury was so braindead they thought the child died in an accident. Accidents don’t require you to put duct tape over your child’s mouth, put them in a trash bag, throw them into a swamp like trash, and finally accuse a perfectly innocent person of killing your child. I’m never going to get over that verdict, no matter what anyone says. Those jurors are going to live with that horrific decision for the rest of their lives. If someone doesn’t have the balls to convict someone of murder, they should not serve on a jury.
If it looks like murder, smells like murder, it probably is murder.
Yes but that gets balanced out by the fact that judges are captives of the system themselves, they depend on prosecutors and police to bring them cases, as we see each time when police are accused of crimes, the judges come under enormous pressures. If you’re not politically connected and your case is even close to a toss up, you can hardly expect many judges to go your way.
Before you opt for a bench trial, you had better do your homework and find out just how well noted your judge is for his independence.
O’Mara has clearly lost his mind. How could any practicing attorney believe there’s a way to have a defendant take the witness stand and not be subjected to cross examination? SYG and a trial are provided for as two separate hearings, not to be combined in a trial. MOM will have to choose between them or, if he runs out the clock and the trial is to begin, the judge will simply deny the SYG hearing. The law does not say a defendant is entitled to both.
Why do the police reports say that TM was wearing “blue jeans”???
maybe mom wants to see the prosecution’s hand without showing his…as far as the syg hearing. I think he setting forgen up to say he, mom, was an incompetent attorney.
Weeks of 4/22 & 4/29 set aside for immunity hearing, but will discuss next week,2/22 whether to “roll immunity hearing into trial”. Also, 2/22 argument to depose Crump. Attys believe/agree on 500 ppl jury pool needed.
Have any of y’all seen the video MANYBUDDIES post on Youtube. About the Jacksonville expert saying GZ timeline is off but its evidence that TM was standing over GZ when he was shot.
been discussed here, concensus is that this expert does not consider complete evidence, there’s another explanation for the two bullet hole in clothing observations and it’s NOT Trayvon on top for other reasons.
His experiment loses credibility because his shooter is firing the gun while standing, and into two garments hanging one in front of the other. While the real experiment calls for the shooter to be on his back on the ground, with his elbow fast to the ground.
For his gravity fall on the shirts, the bullet holes will have to line up, when the shirts are put on a mannequin of appropriate dimensions and positioned leaning forward, over a shooter laying flat on his back. If the holes do not line up, or if a straight in shot can’t be obtained in this position, GZ is toast!
search back and also check the recent articles for more
Forensic demo: http://tinyurl.com/bavjdzl
Martial artists: http://tinyurl.com/apo5oc9
@Lonnie,
Can you display the video clip from a week ago where the MMArtist shows “The Mount” kneeling on his opponent’s arms?
I think this is it, the Martial Artist demo: http://tinyurl.com/apo5oc9
@Lonnie -
Thanks, Lonnie, but that’s the one you just posted. The one I’m looking for was posted a week back, where “the mount position” had the guy on top kneeling on the arms of the guy on the bottom.
In this one, the guy on the bottom has his arms up by his head, with which the guy on top has to contend.
In the previous one, the guy on the bottom has his arms immobilized – so it’s easy for the guy on top to withdraw a gun from his right rear hip.
Thanks for helping, though. I appreciate the quick response.
I would not call the person an expert because
a) He fails to take note of the ballistics and forensics of the gunshot
b) He fails to take note of witnesses
Him saying his timeline is off, really does not take an expert to tell he is lying
Omara is not gonna be able to reasonably and truthfully match the forensics and ballistics and witnesses to his client’s story or stories
a) The gunshot muzzle made contact with the hoodie and undershirt only. If the hoodie or undershirt was not held in place, the shirt would have expelled into the body from momentum, and then the shoot and hot burning would have added more gunshot debris to other parts of the body, from the shirt going back into the chest area.
b) The gunshot wound was shown to be of intermediate range and at about an arm’s length away.
For the above two readings, the shirt had to have been held firmly in front of the victim, at about a foot away from the victim’s body. The gunshot muzzle only made contact with the hoodie and undershirt only. That way it is a contact shot with the hoodie and undershirt, but is a intermediate range gunshot away from the chest for the wound. They likely did science tests to prove this.
c) The bulletholes in the hoodie and undershirt do not line up with the gunshot wound. The trajectory is str8 front to back. To line up the bullet holes in the hoodie and undershirt to the gunshot wound, the hoodie and undershirt have to be pulled down, and to the left to line up.
Add this all up and the defendant pulled the victim towards himself and held him in place to shoot the victim. The hoodie and undershirt, do not have any weight, to cause as much pulling as it happened on the night of the murder. The can did not even weigh the shirt down, nor does it provide adequate gravitational pull for the pulling that occurred. Besides, the can had already fallen out of the pocket and was not in the pocket, and the can of ice tea was found to the east of the victim in a bag.
Omara will not be able to explain this away to match the defendant’s story, because the defendant’s story is a complete lie
Jun ~ I said the same thing. I believe GZ was pulling on TM hoodie trying to detained him.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
Great expert.
WE all had that figured about 10 minutes after that evidence dump came out, with the ballistics and photos of clothing in.
Of course he had to wait till he wrote a book about it, so he can go on TV with this wrong assessment to plug the book.
@aussie. Just read your comment and one before and something occurred to me. Maybe Judge Nelson is not granting continuances because of books and Junior’s media’s rants potentially tainting the jury pool. There are also attempts to intimidate and harm witnesses. O’Mara already made in known in court that internet bloggers doxed the wrong DeeDee.
“b) The gunshot wound was shown to be of intermediate range and at about an arm’s length away. ”
Is that supposed to mean that the gun was about an arm’s length away from Martin’s chest when it was fired?
If so, then both of Zimmerman’s arms being about the same length as each other means that if he has a grip on the hoodie and the shirt underneath with one hand, that arm would have to be fully extended and the one holding the gun would have to be back holding the gun against his own chest with his wrist bent at almost a 90 degree angle, which seems a most peculiar way to fire a gun.
“Besides, the can had already fallen out of the pocket and was not in the pocket, and the can of ice tea was found to the east of the victim in a bag.”
I’m curious as to your source for that assertion.
If that was said in any of the official reports I must have somehow missed seeing it.
Someone must have removed the can from the bag and put it back in one of Trayvon’s pockets, because the can was there to get in the way of the cops and paramedics trying to do CPR and whatnot.
They specifically mention feeling it when they lifted his shirt to get to the wound to try to seal it.
unitron
The crime scene layout evidence
It showed the bag and can to be at the east of the body
The muzzle to target distance is about a foot, but the defendant was about an arm’s length away when he fired the weapon
It is hard to believe the media trolls. Most of them think the prosecution has a weak case. They are all braindead and do not follow the actual evidence in the case.
That’s not quite true. I’ve been watching the news for over half a century now, starting from back when we had Reporters like Walter Cronkite and Eric Severid. Back then people had more face to face social contact than we have today. The media had to think of what their listeners were going to sound like, sprouting news reports that were too badly skewed.
Back then, if a report got a big story wrong, you weren’t likely to see them on tv ever again. Reporters lived on their credibility, thus they mostly worked their reports themselves, or at least took a hand in the writing. It was their careers that were on the line. Not so today. Today the reports are written in the back rooms. The people you see on the air are simply “talking heads”, reading scripts! They, themselves, probably don’t pay any attention to the news, because they realize quickly that, knowing that what you are being asked to say is wrong, kinda makes it difficult to keep your job. So, in on air broadcasting, ignorance is bliss. You can easily say whatever is required, to please corporate, because you don’t know or care about any of it.
Believe me, they know what they’re doing. They know when they’re presenting a slanted story, because they have to decide what facts to leave out. If they didn’t know and understand the truth, they wouldn’t know how to fashion a credible lie. One that makes them look, at worse negligent or uninformed, as opposed to fashioning a story that makes them appear to be overt liars. So, they have to know what they’re doing and they have to be very careful, how they go about doing it.
All those official crime scene photos and drawings and diagrams were made after the attempts at first aid on Trayvon had occurred.
The people who first worked on him reported the can in his pocket and in their way.
Unfortunately they weren’t specific about whether the can was still in the bag or not, and apparently it hasn’t occurred to the state to go back and ask them and as far as I know they never checked either for Zimmerman’s fingerprints.
Analysis of where the bullet traveled can specify how close the muzzle was to the fabric and how close the fabric was to the entrance wound, but by itself it’s not going to prove to what extent Zimmerman’s gun arm was or was not extended.
unitron
Well the hoodie and undershirt had to have been held firmly in place when the shot was fired otherwise there would be different readings and different forensics
If the clothing was loosely hanging, the momentum of the gunshot would have caused the fabric to also go into the body because of the gunshot, unless it was firmly held in place
onlyiamunitron says:The people who first worked on him reported the can in his pocket and in their way.
Unfortunately they weren’t specific about whether the can was still in the bag or not, and apparently it hasn’t occurred to the state to go back and ask them and as far as I know they never checked either for Zimmerman’s fingerprints.
I am fairly sure that George placed the can into Trayvon’s hoodie after he shot him because as I explained on another site:
1) If Trayvon had decided to ditch the bag and place his snacks in his hoodie pocket then he would have placed both the bag of Skittles and the can of soda, but the bag of Skittles was on the ground and the bag was near Trayvon which rules out that theory.
2) If Trayvon had used his soda can as the ‘brick’ that Zimmerman claimed hit him he would have dropped the bag around the tea where he supposedly ambushed George. That didn’t happen because the bag was near Trayvon’s body along with the Skittles plus how was Trayvon able to put the can of soda into his hoodie after he punched George, slammed George’s head into the concrete sidewalk , smothered George in under a minute and had enough time to place the can of soda into his hoodie before George shot him
3) Trayvon placed the can of soda into his hoodie pocket after he was shot.
“Analysis of where the bullet traveled can specify how close the muzzle was to the fabric and how close the fabric was to the entrance wound, but by itself it’s not going to prove to what extent Zimmerman’s gun arm was or was not extended.”
I could have sworn that George stated that his arm was fully extended when he shot Trayvon.
Unitron, just go back to Talkleft with the rest of the trolls.
Thank You !! I thought the Professor sent him packing a month ago.
For the record, again, anyone who signs their name as uni does on an internet site has issues.
roderick~ GZ not only stated his arm was extended, he SHOWED it in several videotaped interviews. It’s about the only thing he has stayed consistent about; NOT shooting his left hand!
Was the can ever in his pocket before the shooting? At the 7-11, he put the Skittles in his pocket and carried the can in his bag – probably to keep it somewhat cool (putting it in his pocket and close to his body would cause it to warm up faster).
sounds like there is video, just not broadcasting live and will be available later online
“We post all of our videos online and will post it here when we have it.
by Kevin Clay/WESH.com Staff 1:07 PM”
Davis taped confession being played for the jury, so that trial and other news may take priority
ANNOUNCEMENT
Circuit Judge Debra Nelson today rejected George Zimmerman’s request to delay the start of his “stand your ground” hearing, saying that it will start April 22.
She also ordered 500 potential jurors, more than the Seminole County Courthouse can hold, for Zimmerman’s second-degree murder trial.
There’s no report yet on the Motion to depose Attorney Crump.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-scheduling-conference-20130214,0,3996028.story
Great news
It would appear as though there will be a hearing starting on Ap 22. As I think this through, if the self defense issue is essentially taken off the table before the trial–as it certainly will be–is this a case of it will be all over but the shouting?
I mean, there has never been any doubt at all that Zimmerman shot Travyon and this was the cause of his death–and he has said as much many times over. Would the trial then consist mostly of wrangling over a jury determination of second degree vs manslaught?
@lurker. I’m not sure how it works to roll-in an immunity hearing with the trial. For one, an immunity hearing is decided by the judge and not the jury.
I have seen cases where after the State puts on its case in chief, the defense will motion for dismissal due to lack of evidence. The jury is then removed from the courtroom while the judge hears the defense argue against the charges based on prior case decisions. Then the State presents its argument based on those case decisions. In those cases that I know about where this happened, none of them were dismissed. Several had more than one charge, and the judge dismissed maybe a charge, but not the entire case.
If per chance this is what O’Mara is thinking or hoping will happen, he is, IMO, throwing GZ under the bus because of Florida self-defense case decisions that are not to GZ’s benefit, with the Dooley case being a most recent one.
Zena, in today’s jury instructions, the judge in the Davis trial mentioned ‘Stand Your Ground’ as part of the instructions. Sounded like this jury could consider an SYG as part of the self defense evidence.
The defense saying it wants the jury to decide everything rather than a separate self-defense and/or syg hearing?
@ay2z. I have to get familiar with the Davis case. The Arias case has had my attention now for several weeks. Do you know whether Davis was denied immunity?
Xena–It sounded like the outcome of today’s hearing was that there would be a separate SYG event beginning in April. And then preparations going forward for the jury trial in June.
If you fail at a SYG hearing you can present your self-defense claim to the jury in due course.
I predict a motion to postpone because of Fogen’s mental health — after maybe a week or two. A couple of psychiatrists will testify about how stressy it is to be hated and called a racist when all you wanted to do was implement God’s plan. Yeah, bring’em on.
wait…why are we talking about this “roll-in” nonsense as if it is to be taken seriously? we might as well discuss whether the judge will let the killer testify without cross examination.
Tzar says: wait…why are we talking about this “roll-in” nonsense as if it is to be taken seriously? we might as well discuss whether the judge will let the killer testify without cross examination.
I don’t understand that BS either. Why is Judge Nelson allowing O’Mara to drive this train.
Why is she allowing only two weeks for the immunity hearing because hearing from O’Mara he will need more than a week to present the defense’s case so whatever the balance is the prosecution will have to squeeze in whatever testimony they can using the balance.
And why are they allowing for 500 potential jurors? Because all O’Mara needs is one devout George supporter to get a hung jury.
That’s a ridiculous number and it will take weeks and weeks before a jury is seated and that’s exactly what O’Mara wants.
I can imagine O’Mara and West will be filing motions until the beginning of the jury trial.
Xena– apologies for phonetic typing of your name!!
@ay2z. You mean the “Z” rather than “X”? No problem. Hercules doesn’t mind.
Regarding the “roll in” . Could O’Mara be setting the stage for a “directed verdict”? Per wiki: “In a criminal case in the United States, once the prosecution has closed its case, the defendant may move for a directed verdict. If granted, the verdict will be “not guilty”. ”
Can he be attemtpting to force the prosecution to enter the statements, during the case-in chief, to present their strongest case, by warning them (implicitly) that they may not be able to use them in a cross examination or rebuttal of the defense’s case – since the defense may not have to present a case?
Are they trying to force the prosecution to put fogen’s self-defense claim, before the jury, so fogen doesn’t have to testify? Is this question of a “roll in” a manipulative tactic, by the defense?
I don’t think the judge would grant a directed verdict, but if I understand it correctly, it would depend on the stregnth of their case-in-chief, which is significantly stronger WITH the statements. Hmmmm? More questions…..
I dont believe so. They can present him as the killer, the guy that did it, with none of the statements by the defendant. They will use the NEN call, and that is about all they need.
IMO, the state has to prove murder. If it is proven murder, it is obviously not self defense. From what Freddy stated, there is no self defense instruction if there is no evidence of self defense at all, which in fact, there is none.
Thanks Jun –
Since there’s no doubt fogen pulled the trigger, guess requesting a directed verdict doesn’t help the defense. Right, to claim self-defense the defense must present the claim to the jury. I lost that point for a moment in marinating on the ramifications and WHY O’Mara would seriously propose such a thing. Maybe the professor will address it, when he gets a minute.
Whether or not Fogenhats testifies, he is still the proven murderer, the guy that did it
Omara can claim it was self defense
but if it is shown that it was a cold blooded murder, it is obviously not self defense
People are gonna see that the defendant should have just had self control and not be a big fat fucking liar, and just left the kid alone, because he did not do anything at all, and he did not even attack the defendant, at all, even in self defense
In fact, Omara cant even submit any of Fogenhats’ claims, without him taking the stand under cross and oath
Hey FogenPhoole….I really hope you read what Jun said here…..
because it’s all true and it must really suck to be you !! Just sayin’
It can happen if the state does not present sufficient evidence for the trial to go to jury.
Images: Many looks of George Zimmerman
http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florida/trayvon-martin-extended-coverage/-/14266478/17081472/-/5qhosnz/-/index.html
GZ’s facial expressions speaks volumes about his anger issues.
The weight gain was very dramatic!
Sent from my iPod
Cielo…Pic #6 the profile…..is that blood behind his left ear?
Blood runs uphill when one is on their back?
BTW….”Doin the 2 Cent Boogie”
Happy Valentines Day!!!!
Grab a cup of coffee, this is a long one.
There’s a fine example of undermining a hypothesis of a self-proclaimed, book selling expert.!
The expert might go back and re-work his start point from ‘he’s here now, just staring at me’ and start his clock from there, but still, even if we accept that the killer was parked at the clubhouse at that, but he should be certain of that assumption as well.
But now that his book is written in stone, so to speak, he can’t change his position, especially with the news videos out there.
One more assumption that hasn’t shown up as documented fact, is precisely where the shooter got out of his car and where he car was found after the shooting (nevermind who took control of the vehicle and when).
Oh, that’s gonna leave a mark…….not to mention jaws left agape.
I might be cynical BUT I do believe that Knox is just angling to get an “expert” gig on this case. After all, win or lose, HE GETS PAID. So why would he care if GZ is a total liar? He still gets paid!
Sent from my iPod
@Cielo,
Re Knox angling to be MO’M's hired gun “expert” … precisely. You are right. “Go where the money is” would be Knox’s theme.
I’ll take “Worst selling books in history” for $5,000.00 Alex.
Good cup of coffee.
Did you drink it slow, LOL. I hope all of you guys had a nice Valentines Day.
@LLMPapa. It’s most worthy of the time. Mr. Expert has apparently watched your, Trent’s and Dave’s videos. What he hasn’t done, evidently, is read material that suggests that GZ cut Trayvon off where he could not reach Green’s townhome. Mr. Expert also omitted all reference to where Trayvon’s body was found — about 40 ft. south of where GZ said the altercation took place.
Thanks, LLMPapa.
yes! He should reference a past LLMPapa video that shows the shooter noticing his problem, and tries to shuffle on over to cover his mistake, again changing his story of how he allegedly was struck down to the ground.
Xena, yes, ignored where Trayvon’s body was found. Mr. Expert might take a look at this one too.
The amateurs on Team Trayvon are now just running up the score on the “Experts” and a shut out to boot.
@ ay2z
isn’t it amazing that the killer basically is claiming that the victim punched him down the path away from his shruck. That Trayvon is one magically powerful Negro.
“The Legend of Black Dynamite Slim”
I heard he can fly in warm weather
All part of the legend. Before ya know it the Zidiots will have him benching 12,000 pounds…..maybe more, the year is still young.
I heard he was raised by Bruce Lee, Clint Eastwood and 007 in a Tibetan Monastery.
Black Dynamite Slim knew Clint Eastwood ?? Wow, I wonder if Slim saw through the empty chair crap.
The reason that guy is not an expert is…
He says that Fogenhats is not credible
than later takes his word of him just walking across the T
and then adds some fantasy mystery of what the victim Trayvon was doing and could have made it home
without even taking into account that he earlier stated that Fogenhats is not credible, and could have made it back to his truck, and question what the hell Fogenhats was doing himself
The only believable statement this “expert” made is that Fogenhats should have made and could have made it back to his truck, if that was Fogenhats’ intent
I do not know how this idiot can claim to be an expert and he does not look at all the details
Sometimes “Economy of words” or “less is more” works best. Let me give this a try.
My version of a book written about this using facts alone.
Chapter 1) FogenPhoole profiles victim
Chapter 2) FogenPhoole follows victim
Chapter 3) FogenPhoole detains victim
Chapter 4) FogenPhoole shoots victim for no reason
Chapter 5) FogenPhoole admits to shooting victim
Chapter 6) It is proven Victim was simply walking home
Chapter 7) FogenPhoole is charged with 2nd Degree Murder
Chapter 8) FogenPhoole tells preposterous story and lies
Chapter 9) FogenPhoole is not credible
The End
Wow! “CLEARLY, Mr. Expert”, Indeed!
This, with ever so suitable music, is one of LLMPapa’s most effective yet.
“Expert textpert choking smokers,
Don’t you think Team Trayvon laughs at you?”
From I am the Walrus….
ooh ooh I love it when you make the long ones
*gotta go make popcorn*
woo hooo
Bravo! Do you think Mr. Expert will get to see your video?
Hope so………
***Great video LLMPapa. Thank you so much for your HUGE contributions to the cause of justice for Trayvon!
Jm- why not? He’s stolen lots of other good stuff from this blog. EXCEPT for the fact that here we use ALL of the evidence!
Sent from my iPod
YAY…. BEAUTIFUL.
We ourselves have totally discredited the Taaffe-Clubhouse section as pure fabrication.
But if the expert is relying on GZ’s timelines, then it is only fair for him to stick to them consistently.
In my personal opinion, the closest Trayvon ever got to the T was around the little tree that wounded GZ and where the key/flashlight combo was found, and even that by approaching from the south being chased. I don’t believe he was ever north of that point at any stage.
The guy is just a snake oil salesman trying to capitalize on the numbnuts and a dead kid
He discredits himself by saying
“the defendant’s timeline is not credible”
then after saying that, he just takes the defendant’s word on what he says happened at the T
If the story went as Fogenhats told it, then yes, Trayvon would have made it home and could have made it home
He fails to take into account what Fogenhats was doing in his 2 minutes of missing time
In the walk-thru, the defendant claims that Trayvon circled his car on Twin Trees but in his interview by Serino and Singleton, he says the circling happened at the club house! Poor fogen. He didn’t know where he was.
I’m not sure what you mean by this:
From his 2/26 interview with Detective Doris Singleton:
Sounds like he told her the circling happened after he’d come off HIS street (RVC) and gotten onto ANOTHER street (TTL)
Personally? I don’t think there was ever a moment when Mr Zimmerman didn’t know EXACTLY where he was.
I’d say that since FogenPhoole is so detail oriented on his NEN call “….he’s got a button on his shirt…” “…he’s up to no good…” etc. and there is no mention of a vehicle circling in real time, there was no such circling. He decided to make Black Dynamite Slim far more menacing.
It seems as though the “now he’s looking at me” and the bit about “he has his hand in his pants, he’s a black male” in the NEN call tape matched up with the time that Z. claimed to still be parked in front of the club house. And that is the only reference in the call that might conceivably match with a story of circling the truck.
One suspicion I have had from the beginning is that Z. completely invented the part about parking in order to make the call because he was afraid of being accused of unsafe driving while on the phone. It’s pretty hard to imagine any exact locations of anything–except that whatever Z. says has no basis in fact.
Make of it what you will but the NeN call starts at 7:09 which is nearly 45 minutes after Trayvon left 711 on a 16 minute walk home. Shave about 3 minutes off of that, because the NeN call begins at the Mail Shed which is about 3 minutes from Brandy Green’s house. So, with 45 minutes on a 13 minute walk, just how likely is it that GZ is anywhere near RVC when Trayvon comes by the area? GZ certainly didn’t spend 32 minutes patrolling around the area without getting any of his light events picked up by the cctv’s.
I shouldn’t have done this at 3 am The interview I’m talking about is the one Singleton and Serino did with him reviewing the NEN call on 2/29. The defendant said that Trayvon approached his car and had his hand in his waistband while he was at the clubhouse. Singleton pressed him for when he moved from the clubhouse to TTL. In this interview, there is no car walk-around at all, just an approach at the club house.
I guess what confused me is if the walk-around happened, it would have been, time-wise, where he’s talking about Trayvon approaching the car.
3 Streets, can’t remember 1, confused on where any alleged vehicle circling took place, never mentions it in real time something like “…..now he’s circling my schruck…….what is his deal, get that officer here now”
There was no vehicle circling……….anywhere.
Poor Fogen didn’t know where he was is a crock of shit on his part. this POS is a born liar and, he wouldn’t know the truth if it slapped him in his FAT FACE. he is such a poor excuse for a human being. Fogen follows this kid in his car and then on foot and, when he catches up to him he is the one who started the confrontation by trying to detain Trayvon. there is a witness to this very aspect of the confrontation which Fogen started.
As I have said before I’m saying it again. I believe there is someone who saw this go down in it’s entirety but, we just don’t know who this person is just yet. there is a lot of stuff that the state has, that hasn’t been made public yet and, the person who saw it all is in with the unknown evidence. the night has a thousand eyes and I believe it. 35-life for LARD ASS!
You can tell he’s lying by the contradictions
On the phone call, he says they are at the clubhouse, then Trayvon is walking, looking at houses, then he notices him and runs… which turns out to start from around the clubhouse
It sounds to me, Fogenhats was tailing Trayvon in his car, creeping behind him, stalking him, a