Sunday, January 27, 2013
I write today to explain why I would not request an immunity hearing, if I were representing the defendant in the Trayvon Martin murder case.
The party with the burden of proof always has to go first and present its case before the opposing party has to introduce any evidence. Since the prosecution has the burden of proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in all criminal trials, it always presents its case first. In an immunity hearing, however, the defense has the burden of proving self-defense by a preponderance of the evidence. This means that it must go first and present its case before the prosecution has to present any evidence.
As a practical matter, the defendant will have to testify at the immunity hearing and claim self-defense because all of his pretrial statements are inadmissible hearsay. In other words, the defense cannot claim self-defense unless the defendant claims it and he cannot claim it unless he testifies that he killed Trayvon in self-defense.
Given the number of inconsistent and conflicting statements that he has uttered, no matter what he says during the hearing will be in conflict with something he previously stated, as well as the physical and forensic evidence.
He cannot testify unless he submits to cross examination. Therefore, he will be subject to cross examination. The prosecution will be able to confront him with all of the conflicts and inconsistencies in his pretrial statements during cross examination because they are admissions by a party opponent. He will be crucified in a harsh spotlight before a world audience and his lawyers will be helpless to stop the carnage.
And after the defense rests, the prosecution will be able to inflict further damage by introducing physical and forensic evidence to prove each and every lie he told.
After Judge Nelson denies the defense motion for an order immunizing him from criminal and civil liability, the nation and the world will know that the defendant is guilty and the trial will seem like an afterthought with a guilty verdict never in doubt.
Given that so many of Fogen’s donating supporters believe he’ll walk after the immunity hearing, I predict the immunity hearing will happen, if only to keep those donations flowing – er, trickling in.
Wow! If what you are saying is completely accurate (and I do not doubt that it is), why on earth would the defense even entertain the thought of holding an immunity hearing? I so don’t get it. You have explained the scenario in layman’s terms in such a way that cannot be more crystal. What would the defense hope to gain by going forward with this?
Perhaps they fear that their dwindling supporters might abandon them, if they do not press for the hearing.
Sort of like: 1) “being caught being caught between a rock and a hard place”? or 2) “dammned if they do, dammed if they don’t”? Any way you put it, it sounds like a 3) “no win situation”. Since fogen is out of money, is the defense team willing to 4) “offer fogen up to the sacrificial (immunity hearing) altar” just to (maybe) keep the money coming in? It sounds like fogen has 5) “painted himself into a very precarious corner”.
Yep….not to shabby for such a role model on the verge of a great life !!
I think the defence has been trying to soften the blow by claiming the money issue is having a negative effect on GZ ability to have the best defence.
I think this is why they have defaulted on the security bill. The security company suing for non-payment is an illustration for the benefit of GZ supporters. MOM wants to show just how bad the money issue is.
This softens the announcement that the case will proceed to trial without an immunity hearing – just cannot afford it supporters. You haven’t donated enough.
MOM knows he is in trouble as far as winning the case is concerned. So, he will use what he’s got for trial and get it over with. The GZ groupies will understand that money is the issue – MOM thinks.
That’s not a sufficient excuse. They blew through over $200 K and can still go for an order of indigency and proceed at public expense.
Frederick Leatherman That’s not a sufficient excuse. They blew through over $200 K and can still go for an order of indigency and proceed at public expense.
If George claims indigency, how will the issue of expert witnesses be handled?
Will the state give the defense a set amount of money or would they chose the expert witnesses?
Professor, you stated on another post that if George claims indigency he will be allowed to retain only one of his lawyers. If you were him which one would you choose O’Mara or West?
West seemed cagey and even manipulative during the second bond hearing when he attempted to pit O’Rourke’s opinion against that of the opinion of the EMT who actually attended to George that night.
West also implied during O’ Rourke’s testimony that medicine was an art not a science attempting to muddy the waters for his client.
The only problem with West is that “he served as co-counsel and helped Joseph “Crazy Joe” Spaziano get off death row. Spaziano is the former motorcycle gang member who was convicted of raping and murdering an Orlando teenager, whose body was found in an Altamonte Springs dump.”
http://latinotimes.com/latinos/29754-zimmerman-west-defense.html
I recently wrote an article about the subject of declaring indigency. Defense gets to choose its own experts but the court has to appoint them, upon a sufficient showing that their assistance is reasonably necessary, and they have to agree to compensation at the reduced rates.
I do not know and have no basis for choosing between O’Mara and West.
Prof…
Let me get this straight…..If fogen is indigent…….MOM can call all the experts he wants……..it will be the judges decision if they will be allowed and paid for by the state?
Speaking of money, have the rest of you heard the news about Casey Anthony? She is filing for bankruptcy, claiming debts of nearly $800,000. Most of that reportedly is from expenses related to her defense. The biggest expense is Jose Baez’ fees, which amount to about $500,000. How would the expenses needed to put on a defense for GZ compare with this?
gblock….The part that interests me is the $68,000 (I think it’s a bit more) she owes the IRS in back taxes…….Maybe Casey will end up in jail after all……for tax evasion.
I agree with Professor that Fogen cannot win at a SYG hearing or, as his attorney likes to call it, “a self-defense hearing” (of which, by the way, there is no such thing under Florida law), and I agree with Professor that any competent lawyer representing Fogen would advise him NOT to try that silly exercise in futility, BUT I sure hope that O’Mara does NOT agree with me and Professor and every other rational person or decent defense lawyer, for the following reason:
It SURE would be great entertainment, to watch! OMG I would make popcorn and watch that thing and have a BALL!
Double butter on mine please
MMP do you have a hot-air popcorn popper?
Nope
It would also make the trial easier for the prosecution, since (presumably) the defense will have laid out its best stuff at the hearing. Shown its hand, if you will.
groans, the defense hardly has to show it’s hand at this point. I can map out the defense’s hand for you, actually. It has five fingers.
Thumb: This is opposable. Whatever prosecution says happened, defense opposes. It’s not fair to carry on about the distance the bullet traveled before hitting chest because Fogen’s “still the good guy” and distance doesn’t matter. It’s not fair to carry on about the angle the bullet went into Trayvon’s body at because it’s those Bpa-lack males who always have the angles, not Hispanic men facing reverse racism.
Index Finger: This is called the pointer finger and what the defense will do is point the finger at everyone else. Sure, Fogen SHOT Trayvon but that’s not the POINT. The POINT is the cops did not want to charge him; the POINT is that it was political for Corey to draw charges; the POINT was that his nose got broken, that’s undisputed; the POINT is that Trayvon was not a perfect person, so there. And DeeDee is an alias; how shady is THAT?
Ring Finger: Fogen is a good family man. Fogen treats his wife with preciousness. Fogen loves his unborn children. (Hell, he loves his inconceived children, and probably even his inconceivable children too!) Yeah and he used to be an altar boy.
Pinkie: “Fogen” spelled backwards is “Negof.” Just you TRY to deny that!
And last but not at all least, middle finger. This is crucial to the defense. If you hold your three middle fingers up and say, “Read between the lines,” you HAVE to acquit!
There you go guys. The best defense money can buy, in this case.
If they had a reasonable chance at winning a SYG hearing, they would have had one by now. The Judge has set aside dates in advance, to handle any motions the sides have. One such date has come and gone without anything being filed. If the defense had so many real questions about the evidence against them, not one date would have been waived. I’ve seen trials where every week the sides were back in court with tons of motions.
MOM had no motions in January because, he had no reason to believe that he could use the motions process to effectively increase donations and/or release more bogus innuendo to the public. That show was shuttered when BDLR slapped them down at the last hearing, so they don’t want to risk getting slapped again.
They will continue to insist that they are preparing for this or that, but as each date comes up they will waive. Finally in June, there will come one final and feeble motion to delay and the trial will be on. GZ will then be pinning his hopes on getting a rabidly racist juror on the panel, but that can cut both ways. Since a person who might appear to be racist, but who is not, can also get on the jury.
The worst thing the defendant has going against him is, his story is a flagrant insult to the intelligence of anyone who is able to draw breath. It’s hard to see, even a very racist individual, being able to swallow so much insult and not feel forced to repudiate some of the dumbest lies ever told on the planet. While a racist might want to believe that a black kid should be killed, they are going to have real trouble accepting that they, themselves, need to portray them self as dumber than a box of rocks, to do it. So, there’s that!
Doesn’t he need to testify to self defense at trial as well? All of his statements are hearsay, until he testifies to them in court and subjects to cross, as only the defendant can present his own statements, however, the state can present admissions by an opposing party into the evidence
Yes, he also will have to testify at trial and his testimony at the immunity hearing will be another statement that can be used against him.
I do not see him gaining any advantage by proceeding with the immunity hearing.
I foresee him lying and making another allegation at the SYG hearing as well, if it were to happen
I believe Orr did the same thing too
When he killed some dude, he claimed self defense, and when SYG came, he made up another story and was denied once the state introduced the forensic evidence
Yes, Jun. I think he’ll likely have been heavily coached but will also make another jaw-dropping mistake.
He could also sit back without testifying at his trial with the thinking that the jury will think the Prosecution did not prove it’s case…… A hahahahahahahahahahahaha That would be a
hoot !
Fogenhats lies do not even make sense
He said that Trayvon was at the club house walking, and then began trying to run away from the defendant
and then within like 10 or 20 seconds, he is at the T circling the car and Fogenhats followed him there in the car?
I simply don’t understand the reasoning. Donations have reportedly slowed to a trickle, the “defense fund” is exhausted, there’s a 27k lawsuit against them, the IRS will be calling on them soon, the defense has an unwinnable case, Judge Nelson denied the motion to lift restrictions on his bond (ie; removing the GPS and travel outside Seminole County) squashing his plans to flee the country
Why not just give it up, and change his plea to guilty?? Or is the defense confident it’s poisoned the potential juror pool sufficiently to proceed to trial ?
The SPD has clearly committed a violation of Trayvon’s civil liberties, although they’re struggling mightily to cover it up. If the SP fails to do the job, the feds will most certainly move in, and that portends a fuller and wider investigation, with more bodies on the fire. So, the SP cannot do any plea deals, it would look terribly suspicious, since they have a slam dunk case, there’s no reason for them to do any deals. The politics prevent it, this case is being looked at worldwide and the implications will go to the U.S. credibility in it’s dealings with foreign nations. Where the question the world is trying to answer is, does the U.S. do things by consent or by force? They know that everyone uses force to smooth the way so to speak, but the better nations at least have a greater portion of consent before they move.
Not so the rogues. This case can make the US a pariah on the world stage.
Since GZ can’t get a better deal by pleading, he has no choice but to face trial. The defense is locked into the worst case scenario of all worse case scenario’s. Having a losing hand and no way to fold it, all they can do is “keep putting more chips in the pot”. Apparently, at least, they’ve come to realize that, even though they can’t fold their losing hand, they don’t have to keep adding chips to the pot. So they’ve gone quiet. Hey, a lot can still happen between now and June. An asteroid or earthquake or other massive natural disaster could render the trial moot. Sure it’s not much to hope for, but hey, it’s all they have.
@ Lonnie…..Also a bolt of lightening could strike fogen as gods way of telling him it was not “gods plan” to murder Trayvon.
He may be trying to commit nutricide, by gaining enough weight so fast that his heart gives out.
You are so far off base I can’t believe you missed the obvious.
He’s packing the pounds on so he can be a “Golden Corral” Spokesman THEN……………………………….
He’ll attempt to be a “Weight Watchers” spokesman….THEN
he’ll pack some more on and approach Papa’ Johns to be their spokesman THEN….
he’ll try to be spokes man for “Jenny Craig”
SheLie will stand by her “Role Model of a man” and and endorse some Frozen TV dinner product becasue “A way to a mans heart is through his stomach” making millions of Americans want to power hurl.
They’re brazen enough to try, but that trial and conviction will get in the way just in time !!!!
Ah. the diet crowd, how could I have missed it!
There’s gold in them thar hills.
The donation well dried up so use the porky pig well.
I have another theory, and I believe that Fogenhats and his gang or cult, are moreso pissing off potential jurors and the public with their immoral nonsense
On the other sites the fogen supporters are claiming DeeDee has confirmed that Trayvon started the “verbal confrontation” and is therefore the aggressor in this situation. Huh? By asking “why are you following me?” thus confirming that fogen stalked him…they are daft. My deepest , deepest condolences to the Martin and Fulton families for their horrible loss of their beautiful son. May Trayvon Martin soar with the Angels.
@Operacarla
Well, Trayvon could not have asked GZ anything had GZ not gotten out of his truck to follow Trayvon, right?
In the Dooley case, David James was the first to verbally address Dooley also. Yet, the jury found that Dooley was the aggressor because he left his garage/driveway with a loaded gun and went to where James was.
They say that only because, they don’t realize that the confrontation started went GZ made Trayvon aware that he was being followed by him.
Remember, it’s not dependent on what Trayvon knew about GZ! It’s about what the law says he had a right to know, but that was not provided, that makes GZ’s appearance an aggression.
GZ appears, at a time and place, in a way that causes Trayvon serious concern for his own safety. GZ has no right to inspire fear in anyone, so that is his first unlawful mistake. It is also why the NW program warns him not to do, exactly what he has done. Revealing himself and his actions to a potential suspect, means that he has negative intentions. Intentions that portend no good to the person who witnesses his actions.
Now, had Trayvon been a thief, and/or engaged in some criminal activity which GZ could claim as his cause for action, then yes, him causing Trayvon to fear for himself, would have been justified in the eyes of the law, because we expect criminals to fear detection/apprehension.
But that was not the case, GZ had witnessed no reason at all, that would have required him to cause Trayvon to fear for himself. Yet, GZ not only was detected causing TM such concern, GZ acknowledges that neither of them knows who the other person really is. So then, where is the justification for GZ’s actions? There are none, and so, the law prohibits what GZ is doing so far.
But, since there has been no physical actions taken, GZ has a window of opportunity to deescalate the hostile situation. He can identify himself and thereby cause Trayvon’s fears to abate. We know now, that had he done so, nothing further would have come of these events. However, GZ states emphatically that he refused to deescalate the hostile situation, because, he himself was in fear for his own life. Yet, he’s sitting in a truck where, the only physical attack that could be successfully waged against him, would be by way of a firearm. TM could not punch his way into the truck, nor could he prevent it from moving, or even catch it if GZ drove away.
So, GZ, by saying that he did not identify himself, because he was in a state of fear, he is saying that he believed Trayvon was both armed and coming towards him. Yet, GZ does not flee! Instead, moments later, after Trayvon has run away from him, GZ leaves the safety of his truck, to pursue a person he has implied a strong belief was armed and dangerous. Lest we mistake his actions for something else not mentioned, he eliminates the possibility of such an error by informing the dispatcher that “Yes”, he is following this person he has suspected of being armed and dangerous.
Now, according to the law, when GZ allowed it to be known to Trayvon that he was following him, Trayvon may not have known it then, but the law knows it now: Trayvon was under an armed assault!!! Let me make this perfectly clear! While Trayvon Martin was sheltering under the mail shed, and when he related to DD that he was being followed by a stranger, what he did not realize and what the law does realize is, Trayvon was under an ARMED ASSAULT!!! That is the law!!!
You do not present your armed self to another, in such a way as to cause them to fear for their life! That is a crime, matters not that the person under assault, doesn’t know that you are armed. That is why we have judicial review to discover the real contents of the actual situation. Thus we now know that Trayvon was being followed by an armed and potentially dangerous stranger.
While we do not know what a criminally intended person might do, we do have a much better idea of what a non-criminal, law abiding person is likely to do. Thus, we know that a law abiding person is not likely to assault anyone, let alone someone bigger, stronger and obviously less rational than themselves.
Trayvon had no weapon that would allow him to approach anyone with any degree of confidence that he could control the situation. Obviously an ability to punch some bigger, stronger stranger, does not qualify as a potentially potent defense. While, on the other hand we know that GZ was an older, stronger, more violent veteran of combat, capable of fearlessly approaching strangers and who was actually armed too boot.
GZ is, essentially, attempting to sell the story of a baby jumping out of it’s stroller to attack Rambo. Hardly a wonder why the story isn’t selling.
An assault is an attempt to commit a battery (i.e., nonconsensual physical contact). Whether an assault has occurred depends on the perception of the victim rather than the intent of the defendant. The defendant must commit an act that causes the victim to reasonably fear that a battery is about to happen. That is, the defendant must also have the apparent present ability to commit a battery when the defendant commits the act that constitutes the assault.
Of course, we also have the defendant stalking the victim without identifying himself.
In Whonoze’s new timeline video we get to see the headlamps of GZ’s truck shining directly into the mail shed as the truck maneuvers on the roadway.
Remembering that the night was rainy and that there was extremely little traffic, such that GZ’s vehicle was the only one on the road in that area, and it was training it’s headlights directly on Trayvon as he sheltered from the rain. My best guess is, GZ wanted to give TM the impression that he was being followed/observed, because GZ wanted him to move on from there and do so erratically, as one would do, when attempting to take evasive action.
We know from Trayvon’s words to DD, that he had not only detected GZ’s presence, but he had also determined that presence to be a reason to fear for his own safety. Who would not? Viewing a strange, unexplained behavior focused on oneself at night in the rain, while you are all alone, would certainly cause most people to fear for their lives, even if they were armed.
Thus, as you say Professor, GZ’s actions were an assault on TM, and, because GZ was armed while he was doing it, it was, in fact an armed assault being committed. Which is why the NW rules advise it’s members not to create such relationships and how to avoid doing so.
What else was Trayvon gonna do when the creepy stranger caught up to him, after scaring and chasing him?
Hell if that happened to me, I would want to know why a person was repeatedly stalking me over a 10 to 20 minute period
I also believe Fogenhats knocked Trayvon’s phone out of his hand so he could not call the cops while he was confronting and threatening the kid
Proff, do u think that mom will cancel immunity hearing @ the 11th hour?
He has to schedule it first.
$10 says Trayvon had a jetpack and a nun-chuck
A jetpack using Arizona Ice Tea as a propellent no less……
well known in seedy circles as the main ingredient to krunk and jetpack fuel
Well the Zidiots did say that when you mix Skittles and Iced Tea wild things happen. I’m old school…..I’ll wait and make a judgement later.
Old school as in smokin’ Banana peels?
Nope !! Old school as in hard headed enough that they have to prove it……not just say it.
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following, (((((out of breath))))) reading past threads
george Zimmerman has been his own worse enemy have to agree with you professor he will only hurt himself at a immunity hearing
Hi, Glenn.
Good to see your fonts again.
Welcome to the blog.
Oh my.. this case is such a mess. I appreciate your information , professor.
Informative article!
Now, my question…..If such a hearing does occur AND Judge Nelson does not grant immunity, could O’Mara then say that Judge Nelson should not preside over the actual trial for the same reason he said that Judge Lester shouldn’t?
Generally speaking, the answer is “no,” because an unfavorable ruling is not a sufficient basis for recusal. She would have to say something personal and humiliating and I doubt there is any chance she will fall into that trap after what happened to Judge Lester.
Judge Nelson:
While hearing testimony at the immunity hearing with deadpan stare, Judge will say , MOTION DENIED.
Next hearing date…..
Correct me if I’m wrong but I read somewhere that the SYG hearing must be presided over by the scheduled trial Judge.
Yes, that’s true.
I will now quote Flounder from “Animal House”
“Oh boy………is this great !!”
Thanks for your answer, Professor. I appreciate all that I have learned from you.
I read somewhere that the same judge MUST preside over both.
O’mara will request the immunity hearing imo because his client will insist upon it. GZ’s convoluted thinking is and has always been if he can just explain his side away that the judge will see that he was justified. No matter how much O’mara advises him that this is not the case, that the stakes are much higher, he will insist that he be heard.
O’mara has deposed quite a few witnesses already. Best believe that GZ is looking through those depo’s and saying to his lawyer, “They didn’t see anything really”, we can crush them on the stand, my words are more powerful then theirs”.
Even with all the facts being presented and all the evidence that we have scrutinized, says to us and people with common sense that he committed murder, he wants to prove that he didn’t.
He can not change the NeN call time.
He can not change the DNA results.
He can not change the location of Trayvon’s body.
He can not change the numerous statements given.
He can not change previous behavior on his part.
He can not change his personality.
Besides all of the strong evidence and everything else, the big thing imo he can not change is his personality.
He has been accused of molesting his cousin. He has harassed a ex-co worker. He has complained about neighbors at different complexs he has lived at. He has debt issues. He has issues with minorities that he feels superior to. He has Mommy and Daddy issues. He asserts himself where he is not needed, but feels if he doesn’t it will not get done properly. Case in point the murder of Trayvon Martin.
He will fail at the immunity hearing and the trial , but he will go through with it because and this is just my opinion, his personality demands it.
It will not allow him to do anything differently.
You’re probably right and he will mess up even worse that he did on the Hannity show all the while thinking he’s doing great.
My thinking is this, his mindset (GZ) thinking and again jmo, the Hannity interview didn’t go well for him or O’mara. The immunity hearing is like a big do-over in his head. More over for GZ then O’mara.
Totally agree, he will think he is doing great.
O’mara has to be doing two things at the same time.
1) He has to reassure him that he can get the job done. That he has some experience with SYG/SD hearings, and prolly gotten some people off.
2) At the same time telling him you have to be prepared for the worse.
Now, if you are a client with GZ personality all he is hearing is number one scenario.
Also, no client wants to believe that their lawyer won’t get them off.
Seems like OM is doing his best to turn a pig’s ear into a silk purse!
He also cant change the 911 scream tapes or the witness testimony although I believe he tried to seduce witness 6 into it, as well as potentially witness 11
The screams sound like a kid, sound nothing like the defendant at all, the screams and yells for terror
He cant change the fact he is heard threatening the kid on that tape
I also believe Fogenhats howled at the same time you hear Trayvon squeal from some form of attack from Fogenhats
@Jun
>>>also believe Fogenhats howled at the same time you hear Trayvon squeal from some form of attack from Fogenhats
I’ve thought about that Jun, and all I can think is that he howled at the same time because he was already seen by witnesses, and he had to forethought to do so. He knew people were already calling and seeing something going on. I believe he knew that by screaming along with his victim and then shooting him he could use that to his advantage. In my mind that is premeditation. I have always maintained that he made the conscious thought that he was going to kill him regardless of everything else. I know how hard that is to prove, but I still think he should of been charged with Murder One.
Blushed Brown~ As much as I would have liked to have charged GZ with Murder 2, that would have required a grand jury to be convened. To be honest, I don’t trust many grand juries, and maybe Corey didn’t, either. Murder 2 will pin him in prison for 35 years to life, so it will have accomplished it’s goal. I don’t think anyone would have gone for a death penalty case.
@Cielo
Grand juries are shaky, have to agree there. 35 to life, is ok with me.
I think you meant to type a 1 instead of a 2.
Professor~ Yes I DID mean to type Murder 1, but I was hoping Blushed Brown and others would undertsand.
@Cielo
Been around you for a long time, I understood ya
So do I. I’m willing to bet that the SP does too. But, what would be the point of upgrading the charge? Since that would increase the burden on themselves without any appreciable gain to be obtained.
@Lonnie,
I agree.
Any howls or cries for help that GZ said while he was brutalizing and threatening Trayvon, was to mock Trayvon.
If you listen to the tape, the howl was not for help. There was what sounded like someone howling, like Rampage Jackson before he fights someone. It was that type of howl. At the same time as that, you can hear Trayvon squeal as if in pain, as if he got attacked.
This is what I hear
I hear a kid scream in terror for help
I hear a kid make a groaning sound as if he was attacked in some form and the kid was exhibiting pain
I hear someone howling and saying “WHOOOOOO” as if happy
That is what I mean by the howl…
I believe Fogenhats was exhilarated at attacking and terrorizing this kid
I agree with Jun that Fogen deep down enjoyed this, and thinks “If I felt so good doing it, it can’t be against the law.”
I believe he [GZ] thinks himself innocent of any wrongdoing. I suspect GZ himself does not feel culpable of killing Trayvon, and therefore will move ahead in any legal proceeding that he feels will allow him to “drop this unsubstantiated case.” and prove his imaginary innocence.
O’Mara has not controlled GZ for a long time now I suspect. This hearing seems foolish in the light of strong evidence, situation, and seemingly unsympathetic judge. I cannot see a scenario that they prevail.
@KA
I couldn’t agree with you more.
Not only has O’mara has lost control of his client but the fund account as well. O’mara is between a rock cliff and a cliff. Neither one good.
O’Mara should have read him the laws that control the case and explained them to him early on. He probably didn’t do that, because he had his eye on those massive donations that came in, and that made GZ mystical in O’Mara’s eyes. MOM could not envision how nearly 300k in donations could come in so quickly, before many fact had been released about the case, thus this money was not about innocence or guilt, but all about people who seemed to be picking sides. That gave GZ a credibility in MOM’s eyes that he clearly did not deserve. But, MOM could only hope that GZ’s name and persona had some kind of magic to it, that was going to bring in massive amounts of more cash if left to roam free. It didn’t, it doesn’t and it won’t, but MOM had to take that chance because he just did not know.
All he could do was sit and watch as his case descended through the 9 circles of hell.
Speaking of evidence that will conflict with Zimmerman’s story…
After literally months in the making the “BCClist clucbhouse security footage + police call audio analysis” video is now completed and up on YouTube:
“Less is more” it ain’t. It’s over 47 minutes long. Hopefully it’s concrete and detailed in ways previous presentations have not been, and more firmly establishes the nature of some of GZ’s key falsehoods.
Wow, thank you. This will be my evening entertainment.
At timestamp 4:55, I thought W6 was to the left of where you place it. I guess I must be wrong.
@whonoze. You’ve put a lot of work into this. Thank you. A few days ago, I watched Amsterdam’s analysis, and he thinks that GZ can been seen walking around the clubhouse with a flashlight. I’ve thus far watched the first 16 minutes of the above video, but do you also think you see GZ or Trayvon in any of the frames?
No. (And I think amsterdam is female, though I’m not sure…)
When GZ pauses the truck in front of the mailboxes he’s only a few yards away from Trayvon, at at that point I think he’s too fearful of the suspected thug to get out of the truck and expose himself. Also, had GZ opened his door and gotten out there, you would have to guess that would have drawn Trayvon’s attention and he would have mentioned it to DeeDee. But she says only that he reported a man watching him from “a car.”
I think it was only when he saw Trayvon running away from him that he began to feel he had any real power in the situation, and mustered the confidence to go looking for him.
@whonoze. Thanks for the reply. I am full of questions, most of which involve the game room video.
Xena, gz is seen at the club house BEFORE Trayvon gets back from the store.. when he first got the tape Trent freaked out and made a video slowing it down and running it a few times so you won’t miss him.
GZ is on foot just like a creepy stalker creeping around the clubhouse with his stupid- yet working perfectly fine flashlight. he’s so scary cas it shows PROVES he was on *Patrol* that night some time before he ever called 311!
@Shannon.
I’ve seen that!!! Although I wasn’t able to see for myself some of what Trent pointed out, I did see GZ in one frame, his reflection in another frame, and Trayvon walking pass a door with GZ’s truck following slowly behind him in another frame. I think the time as to when GZ was walking around the clubhouse was corrected after Trent discovered that the video timing was off by 18 minutes.
Nevertheless, GZ never saw Trayvon by Taaffe’s and “looking at houses.”
@Shannon.
Great video.
That’s the first overall theory that I have seen that explains all the things that kept bothering me. I think you have convinced me.
Thank you for providing a viable theory about the events of that evening.
Wonderful video….You do an excellent job combining audio of witness statements and 911 calls, surveillance video, map of the Retreat with animation showing TM and gz movement……amazing. You have worked hard and long for Trayvon, whonoze!
+ you have a wonderful speaking voice as the narrator!
The Seminole County Sheriff Department prepared this timeline for Fogens NEN call. The original story was that the call started at 7:09…however the new timeline narrows the time the events took place by nearly two minutes. I believe this is the timeline the prosecution will use.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-21/news/os-trayvon-sanford-police-timeline-20120521_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-timeline-investigator-chris-serino
No. That’s the incorrect timeline from Serino’s report. The 7:11 start time is absolutely wrong, and everything else is off by that margin as a result. See:
http://whonoze.wordpress.com/2012/05/27/sentinel-refuses-correction-2/
Documents released since then show very clearly how that timeline came about. Serino used the time when the record was created in the police computer system and not the connection time of the call as the starting point.
“1916:43 – 911 call placed by (blacked out name) where Zimmerman is heard screaming for help
1917:20 – Shot fired; screams from Zimmerman cease
Those 2 lines are downright offensive…
I AGREE, Racerrodig. That’s why I want the federal investigation of the SPD to be in the spotlight more. Nobody can claim that these police were not doing something they knew was wrong; just watching a bit of “cops” TV shows how many completely wrong things they did to protect a killer.
The screaming from FogenPhoole stopped…..I’m pretty certain he’ll have reason to scream in about 6 months. THEN we’ll see what records state …”that’s when Zimmerman stopped screaming”
They’re pushing the idea that it’s GZ screaming. They mention it twice.
Whonoze — Thank you, thank you, thank you. This is paints the most logical picture I’ve yet seen. While I’m mindful of what’s clearly speculative, your presentation in its entirity truly helps a viewer picture all the verbiage about “at the T” or elsewhere. I can only hope the prosecution’s illustrations can make it equally clear to jurors who would understandably have puzzlements with the of the verbal descriptions. Underscoring the defendant’s lies, he refers to Trayvon as a “kid” in this — even though he later claimed in court he thought Trayvon was much older.
BTW, it definitely sounds like “fuckin’ coons” to me, rather than ‘fuckin punks.’ Not that either puts the defendant in an attractive light. Again, thanks.
WOW! Finally someone has presented the clubhouse video’s information in a logical, understandable sequence and evaluation. I’m completely blown away by your presentation.
More than most, I can appreciate the time and effort your group has invested in this video. I am humbled by your work.
@whonose and anyone else so inclined. At .29 of the video at the following link, I can see someone in the window to the right. It appears to be a woman with her arm held up as talking on a cell phone. Does anyone else see that? The time is 7:07:06 that evening.
http://vimeo.com/49680086
Xena,
Yep, it looks like a woman at the window, holding a cell phone at her ear
@looneydoone
Thank you. Now I know I’m not just seeing things. That would be about 2 minutes before GZ called 911. If that’s not ShelLIE, I wonder if that person saw GZ’s strange driving behavior?
@Xena: I pulled some screen caps from the video, they’re posted here: http://tinyurl.com/b97ybkg
While under enhancement there does appear to be a figure holding a phone to it’s ear, it would be too big to be a real person. Maybe my timing was off? What I saw was at 7:07:04 let me know I’ll try again.
@Lonnie Starr
Knowing the distance between the window and the road helped, so I took another look, and it’s the back wheel of the vehicle.
Okay, I’ll leave it up there in case you need to point to it.
Thanks Lonnie.
I does look like a person, Xena. However, I think it is the rear wheel of the car that is going by.
@yahtc
Okay. That would be a pretty high rear wheel, but if so, it means that GZ was circling that area for more than 2 minutes before he called NEN, which tears his story apart about Trayvon looking into houses.
The woman seen in the window doesn’t appear to be heavy set like SheLie
@looneydoone
That is true.
Xena:
I have no idea what that is exactly, but I can say with confidence it’s NOT a person. A person would appear MUCH smaller when seen through that window from that camera position. That’s the kitchen camera BTW. I am sure that what we are seeing there is some part of Zimmerman’s truck, but what part i don’t know. I doubt it’s the wheel. More likely the passenger’s side door and window ??
But it is DEFINITELY Zimmerman’s truck. and yes hes was trolling about over two minutes before he called 311, so no he didn’t see TM looking into houses. TM was already stationary under the mail awning a good ten minutes plus before Zimmerman even left home.
What the security videos show (BRD, IMHO) is that with one exception EVERYTHING GZ claims in his re-enactment about what happened before he got out of his truck is false. That exception is the final position of the truck, which he had to account for since he had to assume the police had noted and logged it before Shellie or Osterman moved it from the scene. So he got out of the truck where he says he did. Everything besides that is BS.
Since June of last year I have stated that there are only 2 things we know Fogen said as being true.
1) Then I got out of my schruck
2) I aimed and fired one shot/
Every blessed thing other than that is suspect…hell, we don’t even know who his real mother is and we’re taking for granted his name is actually GZ !!
@whonoze. Thanks again for your response. When that first came up on the video, seeing it was like watching one of those Japanese movies where something flashes on the screen — you know you see something, but don’t know what it is.
If you don’t mind, I’d like to post your video on my blog. Already, I posted an article about GZ cutting Trayvon off by going around RVC and coming from the other direction. Your video confirms that.
Every time gz lies, he is actually signaling for us to pay attention to the WHY behind each lie. He is actually inadvertently pointing out something he did wrong by trying to hide it through a lie.
I wonder if that is what prompted the shift towards the recent more minimalistic defense. It has been a while since we heard anything about the time before the two were on the ground.
If your theory is correct then I think there is a good chance that at GZ’s version can be disproved. The notorious cell phone location information may not be accurate enough for all details, but if Trayvon was in the middle of the retreat long before the NEN call started then GZ has some explaining to do.
>^..^< Keeping track of threads.
GZ is toast! He has shown no remorse, no contrition, no acknowledgement that he even broke any rules. Just excuses and false justifications and lies, making himself exactly the person these laws were designed to target. When the verdict hits the bulls eye, the gavel will fall, and down will come GZ, ego and all.
I love the way you write, Lonnie….and couldn’t agree with you more.
The problem here, professor, is that you are applying legal professionalism, experience, and logic.
By contrast, the defendant operates on ego, advice from ignorant pals, and whatever tall story he thinks will fly. At times O’Mara doesn’t seem too far from operating that way himself.
Why else would O’Mara have allowed the Hannity interview, knowing that some sort of nonsense like “No regrets … God’s plan” might well come flying out of his client’s mouth. That turn of events was even richer than the defendant’s surprise so-called apology to Trayvon’s parents from the stand combined with his statement that he thought Trayvon was much older. (As if age would have further justified such a stalking and shooting, fatal or otherwise.)
Thanks so much for detailing how the immunity hearing process works, who goes first, what burdens are faced, and what risks are on the table. Guess all we need do now is take bets on whether O’Mara folds against common sense and allows the defendant to insist on having his SYG day in the sunshine. If so, the drama should be a classic.
Lat year I coined the term “Moron O’ Mara” and we all promised to take the high road with the name calling ….
1) Sorry Professor…
2) I think he’s a moron and you have it nailed
3) Sorry again Professor !!
I believe Omara
1) does not have experience with murder trials or cases
2) perhaps has given advice but Fogenhats kind of pushes Omara around to do it his way or the highway
3) He really wants money, so he is willing to do anything, as his only donors left are the truly rabid as many have jumped off of Fogenhats Train about 10 stations ago
4) He’s got nothing much to lose except his reputation and he is already going to lose a bunch more money and time
5) Perhaps he is used to working trials where he just slanders and talks crap about witnesses
@Jun
O’Mara has, even death penalty cases, where he was able to negotiate a plea bargain to prevent his clients from being sentenced to execution.
That would be most family cases when the parties are motivated to humiliate each other in court rather than litigate issues.
You know what is really silly, is Fogenhats and his cult/gang of delusional and racist infestations and locusts of society, want to claim he did not follow Trayvon and stalk and chase him, and pretty much terrorize this kid and cause him distress and fear before taking the kid’s life… or somehow it was innocent and allowed…
If you listen to the NEN call, clearly while he is going after Trayvon on foot, running after Trayvon the victim, as he tries to get away, he yells out to himself “F#$kin coons/punks”… and before he started running after the kid with a bloodclot gun, he said to himself, he excitedly uttered to himself “shit, he’s running”…
If you add those things together, it shows that he intended on getting Trayvon, that he showed no regard to the victim, the defendant caused the victim to fear for his safety, and that he was doing so with intent, and motive to show that “effin punk/coon”
Then
The kid, ends up being killed by the defendant
Although I also feel it is aggravated stalking, uttering threats, aggravated assault, discharging a deadly weapon, on top of murder 2, even if they want to believe that ideal of it is legal to follow and chase people around, it sure does not help the defendant’s case, considering, it shows intent, motive, action, and points to him instigating and aggressing the situation
You are so right and you explain it so well, jun……gz might have said “okay” to the dispatcher, but seeing how STRONG gz’s intention was to go after Trayvon…..we know he did not give up his pursuit.
gz’s “okay” to the dispatcher should be compared to a kid’s “okay” when a teacher asks him to stop whispering during class……the minute the teacher turns her back, that kid starts whispering again.
It is also further proven when he would not go back to his car, even when the cops asked him to meet there, which would have been the opposite direction of where he was going, which was towards the victim and the back entrance
It has always bothered me to no end when he says “…shit, he’s running” exactly like every cop on a reality show does. Not with disgust like”..shit he’s running and I’ll lose him for good”
No, it’s “..shit he’s running and now I have to run after him for my arrest, he ain’t making my job as a sworn Law Man easier tonight, and I hope the camera crew can keep up”
He’s in “1 Adam – 12 in foot pursuit of suspect……officer needs no assistance because I’m The Man !!” mode
He is fairly delusional and he is playing it up as if he is a cop but once the killing occurs, he turns to liar conniving douchebag that he is
I also noticed how he tried to play it up
“I do not know what his deal is”
“He’s coming to check me out”
“He’s got his hands in his waistband. AND HE’s A BLACK MALE!”
“He’s just walking around looking about”
“He’s a real suspicious looking guy”
“Late teens”
“He looks black”
The guy actually thinks he’s Starsky LOL
Man have you got it and the way he says
“AND HE’s A BLACK MALE!” as if it’s 1855 and one of them done got away !! I’m a 57 year old white male and the way he says that kills me. This shit attitude that it’s so inconvenient or even criminal that Trayvon just happened to be walking along is just so ……..
My observation is the dispatcher felt the same way, and felt Fogenhats is an idiot, but just played along because he did not expect a killing to occur, hence him telling Fogenahts it was not necessary to go after the kid
Any person on the phone (well a reasonable normal person anyways) would just be thinking..
“Okay, so what? A black kid, a teenager walking home, and this idiot decides to stalk him and think he’s Detective Callahan. Now he has scared the kid to run away from him, and I heard him open his car door and him run after him and he even admitted to stalking the kid, and I told him it was not needed. Now he does not want to meet at his car, which would be the opposite way of where he was running toward”
He’s not the first guy to try that nonsense… many others playing wanna be cop have falsely arrested and stalked people based on their suspicions and have gotten indicted on the charges and convicted…
I used to ride with my dad many years ago when he was a cop on those late shifts. One cold night he got that “District 1 to car 1″ calls and it was the guy who used to hang around the police and fire stations like he was so cool, who stopped and was questioning an 18 to 20 year old guy about what he was doing. The guy being held had what turned out to be a guitar in a case, but the nit wit kept saying it was stolen property. The guy was on his way home from a band rehearsal.
Long – Short. Dad arrested the nit wit for unlawfully detaining and harassing along with several other things. This “Fogenite” was stunned and fought this to the end. The Judge stated flat out to this guy that even a police officer cannot stop and question anybody without probable cause.
This clown went the “..but I was just preventing a crime from being committed” route. 30 days and $1,000.00 later…………
And GZ called NEN rather than 911, because when what he reported was not true, he could be charged with obstruction of justice for making a false report.
That can’t be used as filing a false report on NEN??
@racerrodig
Most statutes for obstruction of justice for calling in a false report of fire, bomb threat, or an offense, says that at the time of transmission, the caller knows that there is no reasonable ground for believing that such an offense will be committed, is being committed, or has been committed.
That is why GZ was careful to preference his reasons for calling with “There’s been some break-in’s” because that gave him reasonable ground when alleging the persons were suspicious. Without that introduction, he would have no reasonable ground to report anyone for looking suspicious just because they are standing close to a house that was not his own house and/or walking in the rain.
I guess I see it at this point as he was setting Trayvon up and describing what he was not. A textbook false report to me,
@racerrodig
Oh, for sure. He learned how to cover his butt so he wouldn’t be arrested.
Just imagine if he had lived in a large metro city. His calls would have been;
“Uh, there’s been crime in this city lately, and there’s a ……”
“Um…let me take the ferry and get you an address. Have them call me, do you have my number….have them call me……we’ll do lunch!
@racerrodig. Now that you mention it, it does kinda sound like GZ was asking Sean for a date —- “You got my number?” “Yeah, you got it.”
“….yeah, I got your number”
Fogen”..um, good, maybe we can cruise for chicks”
Thats true
I have had cops pull up to me and start asking me weird questions and then when i mention the probable cause stuff, he took off and left me alone… he kept asking me about my black bandana… I told him it was just for my hair because it was long… then the questions started getting more personal and I felt the cop overstepped his boundaries a bit so I did not want to talk anymore and he just left me alone…
funny how even a cop knows when to just leave someone alone for “walking around”
I never got around to it, but usually when complete strangers pull up to me when its dark in a car, I ask for their badge and ID to know who they are, so that they are not creepy guys
The reason those rules are in place is to respect people’s personal space. This is America, not the Nazi Third Reich. Not everyone is out to do people wrong so it would piss people off and scare people to allow such behavior, hence probable cause and such…
Its funny how your story i so much like Fogenhats’ other story where he accused a kid of stealing a bike, and then terrorized, stalked, and chased him to catch the kid, only to find out from police that the bike was never stolen…
Considering Fogenhats’ history, they should have indicted him other issues a long time ago, perhaps, he would have learned his lesson a long time ago because when he terrorized that kid over his alleged stolen bike, Fogenhats should have gotten charged with harassment, threats, filing a false police report, and stalking
Probable Cause” is part of the law “I think I’m a big shot wanna be cop” is not.
Cop talk
Bad boy, bad boy, bad boy, bad boy……..watcha gonna do in a prison dude !!
Did you hear the cops say “shit” when he took off and then “He’s got something in his hands”? Those are real cops, which confirms our suspicions that GZ was trying to sound like a cop on his NEN call.
Besides watching many real cop shows, I rode with my dad hundreds of times and heard he and other cops utter things just like that. All in that same tone.
“He’s on the move”
He rabbited”
“He ran”
He’s running”
He’s on the move”
“There he goes”
“He flew down that street”
“This guy runs like a rabbit”
Many others for sure, and in every case when a foot chase ensued, the “ding, ding, ding, of the door chimes followed.
How familiar. Dinner conversations were always interesting.
GZ intentionally created a hostile and sinister situation for Trayvon, when he appeared and allowed it to become known to Trayvon, that he was being followed by a stranger. A stranger who had no intention of identifying himself, or any intention of deescalating the hostilities he created and maintained.
GZ says that Trayvon approached his truck and asked him why he was following him. GZ’s answer (even though the whole episode is a lie) shows that GZ had no intention to even consider abating the hostile situation he created. GZ says that he lied, by saying that he wasn’t following TM, even though TM could not have gotten such an idea by chance. At least, not on a rainy, low traffic Sunday night. Thus, GZ lies to the police officer/investigator and says that he didn’t identify himself because he was in fear for his own safety. But, then, why did he place himself in that position? If he feared for his own safety, while he sat inside his truck, he obviously believed Trayvon was armed! So then, why would he just sit there and allow Trayvon to approach him?
If you saw an armed man or youth approaching you in your truck, wouldn’t you make to drive away quickly? Why would you just sit there and face being confronted at gunpoint?
Then, why would this fear leave suddenly, when the supposedly armed person ran away? Why would you follow and risk being surprised by a potentially fatal shot being fired?
Nothing GZ says makes any sense, he only makes claims he needs to make, to explain his conduct, no matter how ridiculous those claims are made by the context, situation, next actions taken, etc..
So, if GZ’s explanations are false, all that is left is the strangely dangerous and hostile situation that GZ created and maintained and frightened Trayvon with. Trayvon did not need to know that this assault he was under was an armed one. We know that it was, from beginning to end, an armed assault Trayvon was faced with. This was no neighborhood watch action, this was an armed assault!
@LooooLooo
Hope your husband feels better. : ^ ))
Mr. Leatherman I was on the In Session thread and them wack supporters is saying DNA isn’t a factor for this case…SMDH
I could see where it wouldn’t be. I mean it isn’t like we don’t know who shot Trayvon. GZ admits it.
DNA is significant because Trayvon’s DNA was not on Fogen’s “THE” gun, and none of Fogen’s DNA was under Trayvon’s fingernails.
Its gonna be brought up for sure, DNA that is.
Oh yeah. I forgot. Why none on Trayvon. LOL. So solid with just him (in his own words) following, and Trayvon ends up dead, sometimes I forget we need and there is more.
Not only that
Liquid and biology has its own physics and from what I have watched from documentaries and read on books, there is such a thing as Splatter analysis, and various other properties of blood and other liquids (drops, etc)
That is how DNA will also come into play
I am no expert in the analysis and what they left to the public thru sunshine does not let us know this, but it will be scientifically presented how each dna spatter happened
and of course the most basic physics that when you touch something, it leaves a trace, hence Trayvon having no trace at all on his hands of foreign dna (add his sleeves and cuffs as well) and the advanced PCR dna analysis, it can be fairly concluded the kid did not attack the defendant at all, even in self defense, as there is no scientific trace of Trayvon ever making any contact whatsoever with Fogenhats as he claims
Aren’t they in for a rude awakening !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cause there ain’t none where it should be (according to the defendants story, that is).
I’ve been reading comments in a yahoo story thread where they claim that the DNA proves TM was the aggressor and intended to attack fogen, lol. And that the only way fogen’s DNA would have been found on the scrapings is if TM had scratched the fogen. They constantly throw things against the wall hoping that it will stick.
Things that can be thrown against the wall and stick……Lemmie see..
Mashed ‘Taters is one…..
I believe there’s another that rhymes with quit…….
Yeah, but the diahrea they spew doesn’t quit stick, nor does it rhyme
I take it you mean rectal vomit?
Yep….all that stuff Fogen and his Zidiot Nation spews.
Roger that…..ALTHOUGH… it could be compared to oral diarrhea….Which from research I’ve studied has more adhesive power than rectal vomit.
Lemmie see if I can find the link
You may be correct on that. When you find the link, I’ll be here.
I remember the first time a doc asked me for a stool sample……just another of the many uses of Saran Wrap
Thanks …I needed that.
Here ya go…..the Thermodynamics of shit…
“0th: There is shit.
1st: You can’t get rid of it.
2nd: It gets deeper.
3rd: A nice, empty trashcan is wishful thinking.
And the link to the above…..
http://jcdverha.home.xs4all.nl/scijokes/2_18.html#subindex
What about George Carlins rules on shit ??
followed by
“I’ve since learned that there is a real third law, and a zeroth law! Let’s put the laws of thermodynamics into perspective based on my day:
0. Shit exists. It’s real. Put another way, there is an associative property of shit. If you eat shit, and we make out, it’s like I ate shit too.
1. Shit is conserved. If you touch shit, a little of it will get on you, and a little will be left behind, but the total amount is still the same old shit.
2. Shit is unavoidable. As time passes, it will eventually get on you. If you try to wash it off, you’ll just get more if it somewhere else.
3. Shit lasts forever. No matter what, you can’t wash all that shit off.
And the link
http://theproteusexperiment.wordpress.com/2011/04/17/the-third-law-of-thermodynamics/
Yes, their problems are manifold, but what they, quite surprisingly, do not realize is; it takes more than just the ability to make an isolated point, to prove a matter.
Thus a lack of DNA being found on the hands of Trayvon means little to nothing by itself. But, put it in the context of a life and death struggle, a potentially lethal fight with a subject who is bleeding profusely while being punched with “hands like bricks”, and this same lack of DNA proves it didn’t happen.
If the fight, that GZ claims was the cause of his fatal shot, did not happen, then what could have caused him to shoot? The only thing about which we can be certain of that night, is that GZ was one raging ball of hot anger. It is not normal to become so angry at a complete stranger, but, before we can say GZ has lost his mind, we have to realize that GZ shows signs of becoming increasingly angry at blacks over time.
He even falsely states “they always get away”, even while they don’t! Emmanuel Burgess did not get away, he was arrested early in that same month, not more than a tenth of a mile away from GZ, who knew everyone in the RATL.
Great article Professor, but I’m hearing he’s trying to hire help, LOL.
Love your work, LLMPapa !
the fogen’s effed..time and time again his own words establish that he murdered Trayvon Martin
Now if we could only get the other bad guys who conspired to sweep this murder under the table… I want them hung by their bal..err ankles.
@LLMPapa: The sound is too low for me to hear much. Most of your videos have really good sound, I don’t know why this one is so low. But otherwise Great work as usual.
Amazing LLMPapa! It also explains why GZ referred to Trayvon in the plural. GZ saw one Black guy on 2/2/12 who was subsequently arrested for another matter. When GZ saw Trayvon on 2/26/12, he acknowledged he was not the same guy he saw on 2/2/12 but yet included Trayvon in “assholes” and “punks.”
If GZ’s story on 2/2/12 resulted in an arrest, then he assumed the same story would work on 2/26/12 to paint Trayvon as someone who would subsequently be arrested and thereby, just another “asshole” and “punk” killed.
So does this prove profiling?
To me, yes, but I’m not in Florida.
Great video, LLPapa!
Love your use of that picture of gz at the end……
which reminds me……..Isn’t gz dumb to be getting fatter and fatter, especially when witnesses identified the man on top as being HEAVIER ? Well, by the time the trial comes, the jury is going to be looking at a VERY heavy man!
Could be he will look like he couldn’t run 5 feet without being out of breath
1) Hence, he wasn’t following him (running)
2) Hence, he couldn’t have caught up to the much younger, more fit, 6 foot 3 Trayvon.
@seallison.
Well, if O’Mara wants the judge and jury to believe that, he had better not enter those photos of the lesser weight GZ’s face and head the night that he killed Trayvon.
Trayvon was 5’11″ and weighed 158 lbs.
The defendant was 5’7″ and weighed 207 lbs.
Thank you Prof. And thanks also for your blog….
There were so many arguments on newsvine about Trayvon’s height & weight….and when shown them?……they would still defend the lesser weight due to loss of blood…..difference in height due to rigamortise (sp)……….
That’s why I’m here……an open and honest debate on the facts of the case….and if one is proven wrong they readily admit their error.
Go Team
&
JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON
He can’t escape the police station pic’s however.
Guess gz will have to decide what is most important:
l. gz – too heavy to pursue successfully
or
2. gz–the heavy man on top
When was that picture taken? If recently, it looks like he’s already thrown in the towel.
I think the thing about height and weight is like this:
Emmanuel Burgess = real burglar = bigger and heavier than Fogen
Fogen = scared of Emmanuel Burgess, even with his gun = uh oh, don’t apprehend THAT suspect
Emmanuel Burgess = lived in neighborhood = could have been apprehended at any time by Fogen
Fogen = humiliated not to have apprehended Emmanuel Burgess
Burgess = jailed on February 7, 2012
Fogen = rent due March 1, 2012 and he hasn’t got the money
Fogen = freaked, needs to pump up his ego
Trayvon Martin = taller but skinnier than Fogen, looks harmless
Fogen = AHA THERE’S MY SUSPECT; I’ll apprehend HIM
Fogen to Osterman, to Taaffe: “We need to clean up this neighborhood!”
Fogen to NEN Sean: “Suspicious guy! Alarm! He’s trying to get away! Tally HO!”
BTW, being taller by four inches makes it much HARDER to stay “mounted” on top of Fogen. It is extremely unlikely that long-legged Trayvon Martin could have maintained that mounted position long enough to land one punch, much less a sustained beating complete with shimmying going on, on wet grass, etc. As in, “you gotta be kidding.” Show me the skinny guy who can do that and who is not already a gymnast working for Cirque du Soleil.
Hey, what’s the big idea Malisha? What is there not to believe about the terrible beating GZ took from TM with hands “like bricks”? Trayvon sat on GZ’s belly and rode, from the concrete at the tee, onto the grass, and some forty feet south and back to the concrete again, then off the concrete again. Obviously Trayvon was not only a highly skilled martial artist who could have put Bruce Lee to shame, but he was also a highly skilled Rodeo Rider able to break horses and bulls.
Meanwhile, poor defenseless GZ was unable to roll his body to either side, he was unable to open his mouth wide, allowing TM’s smothering hand to slip inside where, he was unable to bite it.
Poor GZ was so helpless, so utterly defenseless, that he couldn’t even put up his hands to block blows or even turn his head away from them. All he could do was reach behind himself and draw a gun that was facing the wrong way. Turn it, then suddenly extend his arm straight out and fire, while being pinned on the ground. Hardly a wonder that GZ and his defense team, cannot wait for their chance to put on a vigorous defense! MOM is just itching and chomping a the bit for a speedy trial date some time in early 3001.
But that more fit 6’3″ suspect “did not look like a hard core athlete out training in the rain.”
I would say best ever but I’ve said it almost every other time and I know I will next time too lol but that was GREAT!!!!
Papa,
Why won’t you use deception from Lion King 2!!!!
THANK-YOU, Papa!! Finally. Love this video.
I have said all along that his call was rehearsed. I have continued to say that when he gets a line wrong, he has to go back to where the line should have been inserted in order, according to the script.
He had been preparing for that night for some time and was just waiting for the opportunity to make it happen. In order to claim SYG, he had to know exactly what to say to LE.
In my opinion, that NEN call was scripted. Problem was, the reality painted a slight variation to the original script. Parts didn’t fit.
I think Smith, Osterman, and Taaffe or any combination of the three assisted him as script REwriters after looking at the scene.
Thank you for this video!
I actually found that disturbing. It makes Zimmerman seem so coldly inhuman.
To joke on it, we could say the scriptwriter GZ needs is obviously Jim Cameron. There was no DNA under Trayvon’s nails because GZ doesn’t have DNA. RZ Sr. must have gotten his “son” from DARPA. I can see the Zimmenator Droid malfunctioning at its immunity hearing.
MOM: State your name for the record.
GZD: They asked me for an address.
MOM: No, state your NAME, please…
GZD: I think I gave them my address
MOM: OK, what was your address on February 26, 2012?
GZD: He ran behind the houses so I couldn’t see him>
MOM: Recess, your honor? I need to reboot my client.
But again, srsly Papa, that’s scary shit you got there…
OMG!!! i didn’t know they had another tape from another BS call!!! unbelievable!!
thank you PapaBro!!
Here is one that LLMPapa did earlier on “The Script.” It has a bit more than the recent one.
Thanks for posting that again, Xena.
A Zimmerman supporter posted this article. I find it interesting. What do you think? Professor, please respond to the points of this author.
http://www.martinelliandassoc.com/pdf/Forensic%20Forum-TheTreyvonMartinShooting.pdf
Temecula, CA is locaated in the southenmost/western limits of Riverside County, CA (it bumps up with San Diego County limit)
It’s very, very rightwing, redneck, xenophobic, nativist..and home to numerous white supremacist/separatist militia and sovereign citizen types.
I get the point of the article. We may think it skewed and winky-dink. But, this IS the way some people think. It can not be ignored. It sheds light on the mindset of what may be a potential juror – especially a potential mindset in the county where the case is being heard.
This just proves HOW important this jury selection will be.
Just one fact this type of person is thinking — Why didn’t this kid show respect and just answer the question.
While we may think it all could have been prevented had GZ just stayed in his car, others are thinking it all could have been prevented had this boy just showed respect and answered the question. Believe me.
@seallison
Because they also believe that Black males are suppose to submit to men wearing white pointed hoods, or any other men of races other than Black. It’s the submission-oppression thing whether or not Black males see others as a threat because in the world of bigoted racists, Blacks have no rights.
Re: the “Why didn’t this kid show respect and just answer the question?” mindset.
I believe this is what the lawyers call ‘assuming facts not in evidence.’ Did Trayvon have an opportunity to answer the question? Was the question merely a verbal inquiry, or was it accompanied by some physical action on GZ’s part? Was the question uttered as a sincere query, or as a rhetorical question loaded with hostility. (e.g. “Have you got a problem, homie?” which wouldn’t be a question at all, really.)
The witness who reported GZ asked a question is, of course DeeDee. To accept that this question was asked is to assume DeeDee is telling the truth, and Zimmerman is not. (In GZ’s account, he does not ask Trayvon a question.) So what else does DeeDee tell us. She says the question was uttered in an angry, aggresive tone. She says the next thing she heard after the question was ‘pushing’ or ‘bumping.’ We cannot know who initiated this pushing or bumping. But it tells us something about Zimmerman’s actions. He was close enough to Trayvon to bump or be bumped. In any normal “consensual encounter” in which the parties have an opportunity to walk away, each party maintains a distance from one another of several feet, definitely not close enough for bumping. This means that Zimmerman must have been inside Trayvon’s ‘personal space’ when he asked his angry not-really-a-question. That alone is enough aggression to explain why the kid didn’t just show respect and answer the question.
But then “Why didn’t this kid show respect and just answer the question?” isn’t really a question either, is it? It’s a pre-judgment based on assumptions unsupported by evidence, and anyone who has made such a pre-judgment should not be seated on a jury.
@whonoze.
BINGO!!
So the counter argument for those debating with Zidiots on that issue is, “So since you believe DeeDee on that point, why not believe the rest that she said?”
I used to live in that area…..2 of my kids still live just north of Temecula……..30 years ago it was nothing more than a beer, bait & gas stop……now it’s over 100K population…all the “white flight” from Orange County…….
“While we may think it all could have been prevented had GZ just stayed in his car, others are thinking it all could have been prevented had this boy just showed respect and answered the question. Believe me.”
Actually, in this article, he admits that Trayvon had the right to walk away from any verbal encounter with GZ.
One thing in this article that is BS is that he keeps looking for excuses that would have made it appropriate for GZ to get out of his truck and go after Trayvon. Well, NW doesn’t do that, regardless of who did or didn’t authorize him to be NW chairman, because NW rules specifically say not to follow or confront. And he didn’t have any kind of license that would have authorized him to do it on a more official basis.
mountainmanpat,
Ahhhh, the “good old” Temecula
Do you remember when Temecula had one bar, and a warning notice posted at the entrance stating;
Dogs welcome
Indians, Mexicans & Niggers not allowed inside
That warning was rigorously enforced not so many years in the past
The region (Temecula, Murietta, Sage, Winchester, Hemet, San Jacinto) has experienced huge population growth, but the mindset of it’s locals remains unchanged.
Looney……
Winchester is about the same……..the rest I’d have to agree with……One of my sons lives in Canyon Lake…….Another lives in Menifee……….When we (My wife and kids) first moved down there, it was in was the very first housing tract on Newport road….Lazy Creek….30 some odd years ago…..Prior to that we lived in Norco before they put I-15 through the town……I worked in Aerospace..McDonald Douglas (Torrence) Hughes Aircraft GSG in Fullerton…..yet tried to keep the family in as rural setting as I could.
Where I’m at now…..9K ft. in the Rockies……..I have no fear of urban sprawl.
You did leave out the shitholes of Perris, Mead (speed) Valley & Romoland though.
Oh and “Welcome to Lake Hellsenior”
Should I call you “homie” now?
It figures. I sincerely hope that their business is in fact a fraudulent posting and not a real business providing Law Enforcement with work products. If they are, they are displaying themselves as so slipshod, any work they have done is seriously questionable and will probably be discovered to have had some pretty terrible results.
mountainmanpat,
I’m a San Diego native, long gone.
You may call me” Doone, the happy ex-pat”
Spent a lot of nights fishing off the IB pier…..
Doone……lest we not forget tom metzger is still in Fallbrook…..
mountainmanpat,
The IB pier ? 30 years ago? You must remember the 2 dive bars extraordinaire..The Plank and The Clock. (we used to go slummin in IB)
I was raised in Bird Rock, near Windansea.
I thought old Tom Metzger in Fallbrook had passed away, but his *White Aryan Resistance”/WAR hate group still carries on in San Diego, Riverside and San Bernardino counties ;-(
So much for a “post racist ‘merica”
Yuppers….and the liquor store at the end of the pier
Always been an outdoor type person……hiked a lot in the Ortega’s
And a lot of camping and hiking in the Mt Laguna area…Nobel Canyon trail is 9 miles of torture…..uphill anyway
Also did part of the Pacific Crest Trail from Pine Valley up to Santa Isabel….
Oh and looking for fossils in Shell Canyon outside Ocotillo
Oldest son went to SDSU and then to Western school of law in downtown SD….
OH…..and if you ever have any desire to camp at Death Valley?……..I’ll save you the trip……find the nearest gravel / rock quarry and camp there on the hottest day of the year……
Only did Death Valley once…….Joshua Tree & the back country of Yosemite?…many many times
I skimmed over it, and what I skimmed over, is bloodclot nonsense
IMO, no one should even bother wasting time reading it
It is simple typical crap where they are attempting place blame on anything else besides the person that killed the kid
As soon as you see the race baiter nonsense, you should just drop it
One of the stupidest points made is that it is the father’s fault for not informing everyone in the complex that Trayvon was staying at his girl’s place when frankly, it is really no one’s business where Trayvon was staying at
Then he purports a bunch of lies about the threat of burglaries and then starts stating that it is normal for black people to act like the NBPP
Exactly.
I just skimmed parts of the article, too, but it quickly became apparent to me how ignorant the author is of the facts in this case. Early on, he asks if Zimmerman had been authorized as part of the Neighborhood Watch, and then suggests that he might have had ‘legal’ authority to pursue Trayvon and engage in a ‘consensual’ meeting, even though the defendant violated every one of the NW’s rules, and despite the fact that the teenager ran away from his follower. I quit reading not long after that.
Hahaha… That IDiOt isn’t even aware of the fact that GZ, in fact says that a “consensual” confrontation did occur and that it ended with an even greater level of fearfulness for Trayvon, because GZ refused to identify himself, or even explain why he was acting so strangely, in a threatening fashion, in spite of the fact that GZ knew he was armed and therefore dangerous.
GZ’s answer to the police, as to why he kept his identity and purpose secret was because, as an armed individual inside a motor vehicle, he was afraid of the person on foot. Yet, GZ did not advise the dispatcher that he could be sending a policeman to deal with an armed suspect. Why would GZ want the responding officer to be kept in the dark about this is nothing that does anyone any good.
The police had no friend in GZ, that’s for sure!
I just wanted to show through this “well-thought-out-article” the mindset of the other camp. It is a strong “group think” that is quite dangerous.
Although they are dangerous, the point of their danger is their reaction to instigate and accept violence onto others for the slightest slights in their minds, their stupidity and ignorance
There is simply nothing that justifies the stalking and targeting and terrorizing that took place before he caught the kid, confronted the victim, attacked and killed the victim, who happens to be a bloodclot kid
Elcymoo, anybody at all, without any authority in particular, always has a right to have a “consensual meeting” with anyone. But how did Fogen obtain Trayvon’s consent? Did he ask, “Would you agree to have a meeting with me while I won’t tell you who I am or why I’m following you and I have a loaded gun here that I might want to shoot you with?” If he did, do we have any evidence Trayvon said yes? I think most people who phoned in to 911 heard Trayvon screaming, “nooooooo” and I think that was probably him denying consent.
Get your Trayvon Twibbon here for TM’s birthday.
Trayvon 18 Twibbon: Remembering Travyon on his 18th Birthday.
http://dothprotesttoomuch.com/2013/01/28/trayvon-18-twibbon-remembering-travyon-on-his-18th-birthday/
Thanks! It is NOW on my Facebook.
posted!
IMO it is just more nonsense from a Zimmernut who is trying to justify the stalking and targeting the defendant did
He’s not a cop and he had no authority to do anything he did that night…
In fact, the cop even told him that pursuing the kid was not necessary
“We dont need you to do that…”
Even the cop did not feel it was a major issue, so why instigate something even further?
So, where is his forensic expert opinion in his article? LOL!!!
I looked for that, Xena, and wondered if I’d missed something. As I mentioned above, this is a classic example of the dangerous group think that is taking place against this slain teen.
@diaryofasuccessfulloser
Yeah, dangerous to their reputations and ego — and maybe a few folks who are vulnerable to cultic following.
There is none, all surmisal, conjecture, supposition, conflation, deflections and false equivalences. Some forensic work, eh?
Like I said, if they’re providing service to any law enforcement agency, the feds need to move in really quick.
diaryofasuccessfulloser~ that was interesting! An intelligent sounding Zidiot is STILL a Zidiot! ONE KEY ASPECT of his entire argument is the “consensual” contact. The contact between GZ and Trayvon was decide NOT consensual. As he explained to Dee Dee, he was being followed by a “creepy dude.” The fact that Trayvon RAN AWAY from GZ shows that fact that he had no desire to confront the creepy dude. At that point, it becomes absolutely ILLEGAL for GZ to continue to follow Trayvon; it has escalated beyond just mere observation to chasing/stalking. I don’t think he adds much of anything to the discussion.
The Retreat at Twin Lakes is in the Twin Lakes area of Sanford.. on the West side. It is NOT the only residential area in Twin Lakes.. There are other subdivisions, apartment complexes and trailer parks.
I would appreciate it if some of you able researchers would check my findings.. I think the boys in California are in error over their crime statistics.
He claims to be a forensic expert and doesn’t comment on the lack of DNA, the blood flow on fogen’s knuckle bandaged head, the position of poor Trayvon’s body. It doesn’t make sense.
No sense whatsoever.
Kind of amazing that this guy claims to have a Ph.D.
He forgets to tell you that in Redneck “PhD stands for “Pretty handy Dude”
gblock~ you DO know what “PhD” stands for, right? Piled High and Deep.
Or just “Pretty Handy Dude”
In my opinion, Ron Martinelli has strung together a lot of blather, much of it likely boiler-plate from stuff he’s previously authored. Was amused by his description of Twin Lakes as an “‘upscale’ apartment unit community.” Certainly, it’s no slum, yet “upscale’ is a big fat stretch, even by central Florida standards. Dragging in a reference to the Duke Lacrosse case was also worth a snort, if for no other reason than the fact that nobody died.
It is also a point of racism too
He’s saying it is an upscale neighborhood and Trayvon the victim is not deemed worthy on first impression to be allowed there, so him walking home there is “suspicious”
I haven’t had an opportunity to read it. Too busy monitoring the blog and watching the video.
I noticed several comments by our folks that refuted what the person said.
I don’t think I need to comment.
Professor, if O’Mara waives the immunity hearing and goes to trial, wouldn’t that leave GZ vulnerable to a wrongful death civil suit regardless of his trial verdict? Or would O’Mara possibly think that since GZ is broke anyway, that it won’t make a difference?
I don’t know the answer to your question, but potential civil liability for wrongful death would be at the bottom of my list of concerns, if I were representing the defendant.
My verdict is that the guy is just a Fogenite trying to look smart. He actually says that Trayvon Martin’s motives for going to the 7-11 and his promptness in returning from the 7-11 must be determined to figure out whether he was being suspicious. In other words, “Was that darkie out after dark for a good reason or NOT?” I would not waste the time tearing his erudite memo to pieces but if I DID want to waste the time, it would be a shambles by the time I was done with it, guaranteed.
Yes, this case is not complicated.
The bottom line is Trayvon did nothing wrong and, if he had survived, he would not have any need to explain or justify anything.
The defendant stalked, confronted and murdered an unarmed kid. Then he lied about it demonstrating consciousness of guilt.
End of story.
@ Diary, Looney, Seallison –
Ron Martinelli is the consummate self-publicist. His “article” was written in December and it appears he has a woeful lack of knowledge from actual documents released by the State of Florida. His business is testifying as an “expert” for cops in wrongful death cases. He is “Doctor” Martinelli based on his PhD from an on-line college in Escondido, CA, just south of Temecula: “California Pacific University is approved by the California Bureau for Private Postsecondary Education.[1] California Pacific is not, however, accredited by any higher education accreditation organization recognized by the United States Department of Education or the Council for Higher Education Accreditation
You have got to be kidding…and considered an expert to boot.
His PhD means “Pretty handy Dude” in redneck. Don’t let him fool you.
Race
BS? Bullshit….MS?…..More shit……..Phd? Piled high and deep
@ Race
BTW sprichst du Hinterwäldler?
Doesn’t Hinterwalder have something to do with cows or are you saying I’m full of Bull??
Hinterwalder is redneck in German….
I speak redneck very well I might add.
I can usually figure it out but I see and detect the Bull a mile away.
That’s a good quality as it indicates that you’re able to avoid stepping in it.
I never step in it..
Crack Pot!!! Meaningless gibberish, they haven’t done any research and it tells. They haven’t even read the NW rules and regulations, let alone discovered what GZ was doing, or what the real crime stats for RATL were, they keep using Sanfords stats.
By staying away from the facts and skirting the details, they can write a missive that appears on the surface to be authoritative but which is really little more than what someone, blissfully ignorant of the details could write after reading a newspaper article or two.
In short, don’t waste your time. If you do choose to write them an answer, advise them to get their facts straight before they attempt to influence the opinions of others. My guess is, they’re either lying about their professional credentials or they’re engaging in some kind of criminal fraud, if they’re actually working for any public authority.
If they are providing services to LE, my bet is they should be in jail and probably will be soon.
Dumb quacks pontificate in favor of all kinds of officials who are defendants in all kinds of actions, and they WIN when they do, for the simple reasons that:
1 – Judges do not want to decide against Law Enforcement officers or state agency officials, so they take the word of “experts” like this guy and use that to justify decisions that it costs $50,000 to $100,000 to appeal so the lawsuits vanish and nobody can do anything about it;
2 – Plaintiffs who are ganged-up on don’t have money to hire REAL experts to show how idiotic the reports of guys like this really are, so they can’t fight off this kind of bullcrap without an investment of $25,000 or more at the trial level.
It’s part of the fix. The police agencies, state agencies, government wrongdoers, corrupt organizations, etc. can afford all kinds of experts, both pompous fools like this guy and even real experts who are willing to say just about anything for the right fee. Going in against them doesn’t amount to a battle of real expertise; it amounts to a battle of money, at least 90% of the time.
LOL!
@Papa
Great job as always!
Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
I am so glad you made note of this movie that was pointed out to us earlier!
You present it powerfully!
So glad you pointed this movie clip out to us, looolooo.
Hope you husband is recovering quickly from his operation.
Papa…you’re the best !!
LOL!
LLMPapa. You are on the ball!
Wow, two black eyes! Shellie, Shellie, lighten UP, girl!
Genius, pure genius!
OK you’ve got a guy who has called the police 47 times; the guy has been reported at least three times by various neighbors for either running around with a loaded gun or running around with a clipboard knocking on doors and trying to get info. from people yet he does not provide i.d.; you’ve got a guy who’s calling in now and cannot give any coherent reason why he thinks a guy he’s reporting is “suspicious.”
Here are two why’s:
1. Why haven’t the police, at least that Neighborhood Watch lady named Wendy something, but SOME representative of the police, already taken Fogen aside before 2/26/2012 and said to him, essentialy, “Listen, this is becoming a problem and I want to stop an accident just waiting to happen. You do not have police training and you are not authorized to be the Sheriff in this here little frontier town. You got to be a public citizen like everybody else so get that six-shooter off your damn hip and behave. Otherwise next time you start acting the fool I’m gonna have to run you in and throw the book at you for disturbin’ the peace.”
2. Why didn’t Sean have a little red flat on his notepad saying, “If George Zimmerman calls in from Twin Lakes, tell him to go home and NOT TO BOTHER ANYONE and make it clear that’s an order. He keeps reporting non-criminal behavior and he’s seriously disturbed. He’s got Munchausen Syndrome.”
THAT’S IT; I JUST THOUGHT OF IT; THAT’S IT!!
Wow, just thought of something. I’ll check you later –
Make that: “red flag” on his notepad.
because he was not chasing white children
Three kinds of thoughts kind of converged this morning in my mind, while I was wondering what ordinary, non-corrupt (or only mildly corrupt) police officers must have thought of Fogen when he was just a “frequent caller” and not a killer. I’m thinking they were mildly amused, a bit irritated, and probably generally tried to humor him (as in “Let me know if he does anything else” when Trayvon Martin had not “done anything” at all).
Three kinds of thoughts:
“False confessions” — this would be the opposite, being “false accusations”
“Munchhausen Syndrome” — this would be someone constantly seeking attention by reporting medical problems that do not exist (usually to make up for a childhood of emotional abuse and neglect)
“Pseudologia Fantastica” — this is a fascinating mental illness in which the person tells lies constantly to build up his sense of personal wonderfulness in the eyes of others, not even seeing how foolish his stories of grandeur and magnificence appear.
This is gonna take a little trip to the forensic psychologist, I think.
Meanwhile, I just wanna let you guys know:
1. I kidnapped the Lindberg baby;
2. My left kneecap just unexpectedly dropped off and so my left leg won’t bend now and I have to hop over to the hospital; and
3. I designed the First Lady’s inaugural gown this year but I didn’t want to take the credit because it would detract from her place in the sun.
Excuse me Malisha……..
1. I have always claimed to be the kidnapper of the Lindeburg baby.
2. I was the one who handed Pontious Pilot the bowl of water to wash his hands in.
3. Contrary to popular belief that it was an asteroid that took out the Dinosaurs….It was actually me, by way of my Buck Rogers death ray gun.
4. I was the one on the grassy knoll.
Please, in the future quit trying to take responsibility for my deeds.
Sorry to hear about your kneecap, and wish you a speedy recovery. I would imagine your trips to the hospital make you “hopping” mad.
MMP, I got you, man.
Now you’re lying….I was the gunman on the grassy knoll. Always someone working my side of the street…….
Working your side of the street?….U a prostitute?
Hmmmmmm maybe it is time for a career change. Working on these Hot Rods and Race Cars does get tedious.
I am the Lindenburgh Baby!
Thank God You’re safe…..where ya been.
I think he’s been in his 80′s for a few years now….
New Post Up:
We are Having a Great Discussion