At 2:49 am this morning, Romaine posted the following comment about the witness John (W6) in response to my article titled, Was Trayvon Martin a Peaceful and Non-violent Person?
Having read the comments of the MMA style fighting supposedly performed by Trayvon during his encounter with the defendant; it is my opinion that it is simply an observated opinion of a witness who had no concrete evidence that Trayvon trained, watched, or had knowledge of this form of fighting. It was a witnesses way of describing what he thought he saw at that time. A statement taken out of context and is now being used as a fact with no proof.
John (W6) retracted the statement, so it’s as if he never said it.
No one else even reported seeing any fighting.
The witness did not misinterpret what he saw.
The witness lied.
I am attempting to figure out why he lied.
Since his false statement matches the defendant’s false statement, I believe the defendant or someone on behalf of the defendant, persuaded him to lie.
If that is not what happened, then the two matching false statements must be coincidental.
I am not going to estimate the probability that the matching statements are due to a coincidence.
Such an exercise would be a waste of time.
I believe there is a reasonable probability, however, that John (W6) may testify that the defendant or someone on his behalf urged him to tell that lie to the police so that they would not arrest the defendant for murder.
Lying to the police is a first degree misdemeanor in Florida punishable by up to a year in jail
Would John (W6) tell the truth to avoid being prosecuted and serving time for lying to police?
Would you, if you were in his situation?
i won i won i shot the BB gun, you lost you lost you ate tomato sauce!LOL
first of all i wouldn’t lie to the po po about a killing outside my own house!
but i’m thinking he’s the one who gz spoke to right after climbing off of Trayvon’s body. isn’t he the one that asked what kind of ammo he used?
was he the one gz told ‘the guy was beating me to death and i had to shoot him’
or was he in the vicinity to overhear that lie?
those could have clouded his ignorant judgment as well as having been coached by the police at the scene.
he could have spoken to OM at the scene and came to the conclusion with osterman trying to get the lie out…
I think you have the two john’s confused,wile one John lives on the side of the doggie poop station( the guy that encountered forgen and asked what kind of gun he used AKA mistrory asshole flashlight man as Trent Sawyer would call him). The other John is the one who lives on the other side of the walkway where the body was found AKA MMA style John.
ok so i’m totally confused. so then J* is the one who lives with the woman that was on the phone with 911 when the shot went off, saying she didn’t know what was happening outside while J* was outside telling gz to “stop, and i’m calling 911″ and then ran back inside instead of helping Trayvon. and then lied about seeing the MMA stuff? So we’re talking about this guy J*??
and the other *John* is the one who asked what kind of gun he used?
@Shannon. John W6 is the MMA John. Jon is the one who took the pics with his cell phone. Jeremy is the one whose wife was on the phone with 911 and call captured the GZ’s voice and Trayvon’s screams.
OHH. B/C i always though Jeremy was called John (Doe) to keep his anonymity.
1.John – W6.
2.Jon – the one who took the pics.
3.Jeremy – with the wife.
Jeremy lost his identity by the fact that the call was recorded and his wife called out his name.
Professor wrote me (shannon)
“Nothing useful is accomplished by wringing one’s hands and wailing about the unfairness of results in other cases.
The lesson to be learned here is to think the case through from start to finish strategically rather than hysterically.
I’ve done that a number of times and I believe the prosecution’s case is so strong that the major vulnerability in its case is the composition of the jury.
The best way to deal with that is to make jury selection a strength rather than a weakness.
Instead of freaking out, let’s design a questionnaire that will reveal potential jurors who are likely to ignore the evidence and acquit the defendant because the victim was a Black teenager.”
so how do you write questions like this?
Pretend you are having a conversation with a stranger and you want to find out the answer to that question.
You can’t ask them directly because they would lie to you.
Give it a try and see what you come up with.
My juror is Bernice, a white lady.moved to Sanford as a kid from with her mom. 37 years old, barely graduated high school. mother of 3 boys, ages 9, 12 and 19.
Her stepfather owns the Sanford Buick dealer and John Deer riding lawnmowers,
She’s the assistant associate manager at John Deer. and just bought her first home, a 2300 square foot, new construction townhouse with her boyfriend, the father of her 2 youngest sons.
*Bernie: How do you feel about Black History month at your son’s schools?
*Bernie: What did little billy do for his 4rd grade Black History month project a few months ago?
Great questions.
You know what I would like to see? I would like to see a predominantly white jury and for GZ to be convicted. The outhouse crew (and GZ supporters in general) seem to have this crazy idea that the only people who would find GZ guilty would be black people. I have heard that “theory” spewed many a time in many a place and it angers me to no end.
I am not black but I think GZ is guilty as hell. And I sure as heck KNOW I’m not the only white person who thinks so. I mean for goodness sake – I’m not ignoring the racial implications – but what parent would not want an investigation of a man who admittedly followed, shot, and killed your unarmed teenager who was just walking home from the store. It does not matter what color he is, what his grades are, whether he smoked pot or not, any parent would want that!!!
All their racist smack talk about black youth, Trayvon’s family, Mr. Crump, Natalie and just black people in general makes me sick and I would love nothing more than to show them how racist and wrong they are.
Of course, they would just see it as some other setup or something. I don’t know. But I would still like to see it because I am so tired of listening to that kind of garbage.
“White” here too…..Put me on the jury…..I won’t need any time to cast my vote.
GUILTY
They are really confused
I am convinced that the mere thought of society sanctioning the killer’s actions would scare the bejesus out of majority of American parents
That is nonsense
The petition was started by an Irishman
and numerous people of all races stood up for the kid Trayvon
Rick Scott even stated that whatever time was needed to serve justice in the Trayvon Martin case would be fine and given
and the message is it is about an injustice that occurred, right or wrong
You do not need to be black to see what happened here is an injustice to all of the world
In fact, I would love the jury to be multicultural, blacks, hispanics, Asians, Mexicans, whites just to blow the defendant’s mind the hell up LOL
then he would see every culture of people want to put his ass in the canister LOL
I am fairly sure any fair, objective, and reasonable juror will be asking “why the defendant could not just leave the kid alone”
But the multicultural jury would make the fogenhatters jaws drop and the look on their face would be priceless
I am guessing Omara may be thinking the same way, but for fun, just have only black people come in as jurors to be selected and see if Omara can come up with reasons other than the fact they are black LOL It would be a good gag
In the end though, the race thing is stupid, and is simple genetic and pigmentation of one’s skin, and what is needed is a fair, objective, and reasonable rational jury, not the race of the person
I can bet that Omara will try to discriminate blacks, mexicans, hispanics, arabs, and any race of woman from the jury LOL
He may even discriminate against Irish people, since an irish guy started that legendary petition with over 2 million signatures (if you add the other petitions, there is actually another 300,000 or 400,000 more signatures)
Since GZ is running the show and calling the shots, he might tell O’Mara that he only wants Latinos on the jury.
i don’t see any other jury questions. i sure hope i didn’t make it sound as if I was the only one to write a question!!! hello?? LOL
But anyway, the reason i suggested this question; what does she thinks of Black History month, is because recently i had a conversation with my step-sister inlaw about it.
she’s white. and recently she had a breakup and moved across town in with her mother ( this is in Macon GA).
well since she moved in, her mother has been making really racist comments about how much she hangs out with black people.
This was a shock to me, although i’ve never met her mother, she is the grandmother to my nephew…
so anyway, she has a 14 y.o. son (my brother’s son) and one day said something, in a negative way about his projects for black history month in school.
something to the affect of, why don’t they have white history month!!
this pissed me off because not only was that a stupid, ignorant point of view, but it’s a bad influence on my nephew.
anyway, i think it would be interesting to hear someone white, from Sanford, who’s supposedly from a decent American, well to do family explain what they think about having their white kids studying black history.
i think how they answer this will be a clue into their real beliefs…
To be honest, I have only heard of an Asian history month and a black history month. I think it is a good idea for people to learn about as much culture as possible, especially languages. It would prepare someone for the global modern world. It would equal instant success because you can communicate in so many different cultures. I do not know why white person would make a fuss about kids learning of another culture or language when it actually helps their future. Just sounds like the childish thing kids do where, if someone else has it, I must have it too. It is not like we do not celebrate white holidays. What about ST. Patrick’s day? What about Valentine’s? There’s Italian holidays I always see Italians with their friends parading down busy streets, but I do not know the names of. There’s also people like Morgan Freeman who feel that the different months segregate people, so why not just celebrate world history altogether all year long?
@ Jun
I’m with you & Morgan Freeman…..
The main reason for establishing Black History Month is to honor Black Americans who have and do contribute to America, mostly in terms of science, medicine, inventions, arts, literature, etc. Previously, the accomplishments of Black Americans were unacknowledged, even to the exclusion in American history books The idea that no Blacks had ever contributed anything worthwhile to America required a response.
Xena:
With no disrespect towards Blacks, I agree with Morgan Freeman’s views on Black history month. I do agree with you that the accomplishments & contributions to society have been ignored for…..well just about as long as Blacks being in North America.
The same can be said for gays? Many accomplishments through history that they had been acknowledged for, only to find after their death they were gay. A recent example is Sally Ride, American hero? or dyke lesbo?
With that said……should we also have a gay history month?
There are national gay pride parades.
Also, I do not know if any gays have had their accomplishments stolen from them with credit given to a straight person. Race is something that cannot be hidden unless it’s someone such as Carol Channing who revealed it after she was successful and ready to retire from acting.
Beginning at about 7:54 of the following video, Jane Elliot addresses a lesbian who speaks in terms of comparing being gay to being Black. I don’t agree with Jane that people can change their sexual orientation, but I do agree with her otherwise.
mountainmanpat~ “dyke lesbo”? Do you realize that “dyke” is as offensive as the N word is to blacks? (BTW, I’m one of those dyke lesbos, so watch out!
) Why can’t people be just who they are, recognized for what they do? I mean, I read that some people in the LGBT community were upset that Sally Ride never came out publically. Oh and, October is an UNofficial Gay History Month, for those in the know.
Cielo:
I meant no disrespect towards gays. To be honest, I used to be a homophobe, this as a result of being molested as a child in a children’s home. I hadn’t made the distinction between homosexuality & pedophilia…..Today I am free of that, as I am also free of the hated the military instilled in me towards Asians.
I FULLY support gay rights & same sex marriage.
A couple I met here in Colorado, 2 guys, been together 28 years……How many traditional marriages last that long anymore?
About the only people I have issues with today are assholes and the ignorant.
mountainmanpat~ Not for one second did I think you were being disrespectful. I just thought I’d mention that those words still sting, even as we have tried to reclaim them. I’m proud to be a dyke, but lesbo sounds so…. weird.
BTW, my partner and I have been together for 20 years. And we STILL can’t get married! Aint that a kick in the head?
Yeah……words can sting through bone to the heart…….I came back from overseas in ’72 to rejection and name calling….I did what the government asked of my and believed in the cause…….NEVER AGAIN.
One thing I feel I am blessed by is even though I threw a lot of lead downrange….To my knowledge I have no confirmed kills, as in having them in my sights and pulling the trigger.
I’ll give Ya’ll a little tip, you meet a veteran, don’t tell them thank you, as they may have done things they don’t want to be thanked for.
The best compliment you can give a Vet is……
WELCOME HOME
@Cielo62
Did you promise to love one another, in sickness and in health.
Did you promise to each other to cherish one another.
Are you going to keep those promises till death do you part.
Then you are married, sweetie no need for a piece of paper for “them” to be satisfied.
Much love to ya….
Yes, we did, and do almost daily.
Thanks!
Jun~ There also Hispanic History Month in September.
Really, I didn’t know that. I can’t wait till September, having it this month.
blushed brown~ I’m a school teacher. We address these things. What annoys me the most about Hispanic History Month is that many people boil ALL hispanic nationalities into Mexican, when we don’t have the same history, foods, traditions, heroes, literature or even the same dialect of Spanish! My parents are from Colombia, and I never HEARD of a burrito until I moved to Texas!
@cielo62.
Truth! I lived in El Puerto De Santa Maria Spain for 3 years. After I returned to the US, I went to Mexico, didn’t recognize any of the food, and could barely understand what they were saying. LOL
@Cielo62
You and me both. What the hell is a chimmychanga? Moved to Texas and had no idea what the hell they were eating. No disrespect to Mexicans, I have some neighbors that are Mexicans and they are great people.
My people come from Puerto Rico, and I can’t stand they they think we all speak the same. Just because you are Hispanic does not mean you are automatically Mexican.
Most of the time they pick up from my spanish that I am not from around here. And if I speak to some Mexicans in spanish they get this look. You know what I’m talking about.
I know Hispanic people who dont even know Latino history month. I have never seen them mention or celebrate it. I did not even know there was a Asian history month until it was kind of media force fed to me.
well we do have cinco de miao!
which is my kid’s b-day!!lolo
U know there’s also a United Nations Day?
I didn’t know about it until I worked for McDonnell Douglas in the late 70′s….we got it off as a PAID holiday
Shannon….Ur kids bday is May 5th?
I have a son born May 4th & a daughter born May 6th.
My youngest son was born on his mothers bday……missed mine by 5 days
yep may 5th. taurus the bull!
i guess we do pretty good in august. but apparently you do twice as well! lol
Follow……
lol
lol 
lol 
lol ………typical classroom student…lol
This was my reply to shannoninmiami’s (I’m first) comment.
Somehow it ended up way down here, and seems to be quite inappropriate to all the comments above.
i know you were talkin to me! we used to say that in elementary school when we beat someone in kick ball or whatever.. i still say it!!LOL
@ Professor L. Please read my post to you on the previous open thread. Thank you
Wow! I do believe there is more to the story. A two minute interview a short written statement…yep reeks of corruption in my opinion considering we know how much more John had to say. What I find interesting is how willing the two central male witnesses were so willing to go along with the authorities, while the women seemed to stick to their guns. Did they not get the wink and nod knowing that a man’s word would count more than “emotional” women’s words. I do think it is clear that the first witness on the scene and John are corrupted. It will be interesting to see…are they going to ride the wave or come out? Will their hand need to be forced via criminal charges? One thing is for sure, one lie leads to more lies, lead to more lies.
Whaddya mean, “stick to their guns?”
Mary and Selma went public because they thought they were being ignored. W18 insisted that it was a boy’s voice she heard screaming help. I can’t remember the other witness but she mentions the white shirt and was adamant about it. The women haven’t recanted. They haven’t had to weeks later pull out pictures they took the night of 2/26. All in all they come off more credible and would not be cowed into saying something that they did not believe to be true.
Check your email.
I haven’t received anything, Professor.
@tsnr Was it Joe, or Jon’s wife who changed her story from CLEARY suggesting there was a chase, even helped investigators determine how far apart they were to later saying to the FBI or FDLE she didn’t see anything?
Interesting how MOM suggested Fogen really needed to speak to some of the witnesses at the last hearing. He even slipped and singled out Joe. Wonder why?
That was the witness with the sister, unrelated to Joe.
Gotcha. She appears to change her story. I wonder why? Was she also the person who was scared of Fogen initially? I cant recall.
Taaffe said he spoke to all the neighbors so yeah…she may have been intimidated.
@TSNR
I think it was the HOA people, Cynthia Wibker (wit-42) Don O’Brien (w-21) President of HOA, and the prior president of HOA, Noah Caraker. I think those phone lines were burning up that night and the next couple of days, telling residents NOT to talk about GZ patrolling that evening or any other evening. To keep them out of it. JMO
Also witness 19 the “dog lady” said in her interview that she saw the previous President of HOA out in his driveway and he gave her a look of “not to talk to any reporters”
Audio March 10 ,2012 Track 1 (14min) @ 9:43
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-19-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/
That would make a lot of sense. They know they are liable and as others have said, the relationship between gz and HOA may be stronger than any of them are admitting.
Exactly.
The treasurer, secretary, and ex president all live there. I do not have the new president location, but I would assume he lives there also since he is the President of the HOA.
I’ve seen HOA newsletters PRIOR to the murder, re: organizing the NHW.
Anyone have any links to RTL HOA newsletters after the murder?
I think they would be interesting to read.
@MMP
Great minds think alike.
I have asked a certain party if he can get his hands on them about a week ago. You just reminded me to follow up on that.
I think the HOA would throw fogen under the bus to try to avoid liability for his actions. If not if would seem then that they have no problem with fogens actions?
@MMP
I think the HOA will be held responsible no matter what if they run him over with the bus or try to hide him in the bus. I think Ms Fulton has already filed something against them, I think Xena or some else may know more about it.
They were fully aware of his start of the NW, when the president got complaints about him knocking door to door. Then they said ok. They waived the clubhouse fee for the Wendy Dorvial meeting. Several witnesses commented and said they thought he was doing a good job, and all of that is recorded on audio. I think it would be good thing for Crump to keep every audio and written statement of those who said that and present all of that in court, when they try to say they were not “liable”.
The HOA acquired an insurance policy for liability from Traveler’s in March 2012. They gave Sybrina a claim form which Sybrina filed. Travelers’ filed an action in the federal court seeking a declaratory judgment to see whether they have to represent the HOA on Sybrina’s claim. The HOA failed to respond and after some motions seeking a default judgment, Travelers dismissed the complaint without prejudice.
Thank you, Miss Xenaaaaa.
Xena
So what you are saying is that the insurance company is not accepting responsibility for the murder. So it will be the HOA itself that will have to pay any damages?
Hell if the homes lost so much value over the past few years…….they’ve lost it all now….
@mountainmanpat.
Traveler’s argued that the policy only covered members of the HOA. There might still be some liability because the HOA, in its Newsletters, gave a shared LE authority to GZ by instructing residents that if they saw anything suspicious to first call the cops, then call GZ.
It’s not over yet.
If I recall, didn’t the HOA newletter publish an article about GZ and his NW? I think I remember someone posting such an article, quite some time ago, either here or on the bcc:list.com
@Lonnie,
Yes.
Sorry for the late reply.
Will post for you early tomorrow morning.
Is the HOA a sub-entity of Leland Real Estate Management?
The reason I ask is because….. in the HOA newsletter… each HOA board member’s address is listed as the Leland address.
Women sticking to their guns? Yes. I served on a jury for a murder trial of a white teen who packed a gun to school, hid it in his locker, then went across the street at lunchtime to blow away a black rival gang member. Both gangs were of mixed races, and all the witnesses, along with the defendant and the dead victim were low-lifes. Among 12 jurors, 11 women voted to confict, and only the one lone male wanted to let the kid off. We kept up the pressure and the guy (so sympathetic to the notion that the kid was a victim himself of bullying)finally caved. (BTW, although it wasn’t introduced at trial, we later learned from newspaper reports that the kid previously had shot his step-father, winging him,but juvenile authorities had let him go on that one.
I’m hoping the GZ prosecution loads the jury with women of any heritage who can see the situation for what it was and not get tangled up with typical male fantasy nonsense about how scared GZ might have been.
It’s interesting that you refer to “typical male fantasy nonsense about how scared GZ might have been,” because recently, I’ve been off in a corner trying to meditate on a single question that has been bugging me about the Trayvon Martin killing, the constant state of demiwar in the Middle East, the Newtown-School-type mass murders, and the Tea Party attempt to take over the American Government. And the single question is: What are the men finding so damn scary that they have to act like such lunatics?
Now I know a little bit about fear. I think everybody my age does. But I don’t think I could ever let myself reach the feverish pitch of blatant panic that folks like Fogen must reach when they run off to buy their guns and when they think everybody walking around is a marauder. Jeez Louise!
Now we get these bizarre YouTube flicks of some belligerent skinhead type ranting and raving about what he’s gunna do when “they” come to get his guns. Are these guys not embarrassed to speak that way in front of little old ladies who have braved the terrible dangerous world for 66 years without assault weapons and GI Joe paraphernalia? OMG what a bunch of terrified ninnies!
A friend of mine believes that more than half of the irrational fear expressed by the most bellicose parts of our population are a sign that they were physically and emotionally abused as children. I’ll bet that’s a fair guess, too. Another thing I think plays into this “Generalized Terror Disorder” is that the person’s own intentions towards others is larcenous, hostile, angry and mean-spirited so he naturally thinks those are the attitudes others must be harboring towards HIM as well.
It’s a damn shame. People who are born in a fine country with great resources and a fortunate natural endowment, that has been so long without war on its soil, soiling their own high-quality trousers in fear of the not-really-present ever-imagined danger. That, in the words of my friend from the still navigable inner city, is “some dumb shit.”
following along…………
I think the SPD was going around encouraging people to say things that would be helpful for George. They were telling peolps who said GZ was on top that they were mistaken and it was always Trayvon on op. They were telling everyone who heard a kid screaming that it was GZ, Why not convince a witness that he saw TM going MMA. I have a nephew who has studied martial arts since he was aout 2. He laughs at the idea of a kid with no training thinking he could take on a guy with a gun
Nancy, I also think W6 just led by the questioning to report the MMA pounding, then realized as compared to what he actually saw, that the MMA ground and pound line was an exaggeration of what he witnessed.
I also think men are far more likely to succumb to the party line than women.
Party, what party?
I wanna go to the party.
@Professor, let me know if you find the party. lol
I;m really worried about witness #6 at the trial.As well I am wondering if the fact the fogen lied on the witness stand during his so called apology to the family saying he thought Trayvon was a couple of years younger than him if that can be brought up at the trial.
Professor Leatherman, you don’t wanna go to that party. Trust me.
Party. What party? I was asking where’s the nearest potty?
Got a 2 holer out back of the cabin Prof…….kinda cold though !!!!!
LOL. Nope, you don’t want to go to the good ole boys’ party.
@Nancybenefiel:
Hi Nancy! Nice to see you on this blog! Looneydoone posted this on HP. I thought I would post it for the wonderful family here too. I had never seen the ME report in full. This is very interesting indeed! I thought Fogen claimed that he was not on the NW that night but going to Target to shop? Hmmmm!
From Looneydoone on HP:
I found something curious when re-reading the ME reports yesterday. Check it out ;
Office of the Medical Examiner District 7 &24
Medical Examiner Report 24043
ECS CAD#12-0570199 02/26/2012 8:32PM
LE Case #2012-50001136
Investigator-Serino
Medical Examiner Investigator- Tara Malphurs
from page 2 of 2 CASE SUMMARY
“At approximately 1910 hrs on 02/26/2012 911 dispatch received a call from a resident of the complex. The resident advised of a B/M who was at the complex between townhouses. The caller stated that the male should not have been in the area and he observed the male while walking his neighborhood watch”
What ??? Who gave ME Investigator this information ?
There’s more…it goes on to say gz twice confronted Trayvon before killing him ! This is a bombshell”
I kept repeating countless times on this site that, the going to target was a lie from the word GO! the SPD came up with that lie in order to cover for him having that gun on him while doing his NW duties. it’s really something how LE was willing to help someone get away with killing a child.
@ladystclaire:
Hey Ms. Lady! GZ as we all know, is a liar. Going to Target with no money or credit cards? What was he going to do, shoplift? (I wouldn’t put it past him)! Why were so many members of the LE community ready to throw away their careers for Fogen? The police chief, Wolfinger and so many of the men in the SPD? They were willing to lose their pensions and career for Fogen? Do you think he cares in the least bit? Nooooooo! When you are in your 50′s, you are awaiting your retirement, not starting over. The problem is that they didn’t realize that this case would blow their ass$$# out of the water!
Only thing I disagree with you on is, that some of them knew very well that just about anything they did out of order, placed them and their pensions at terrible risk. So, they didn’t go along with this lightly, but, because there was an even more real, and even more immediate threat from the top. Making the real equation: either risk getting blown apart now, or take a chance that it won’t happen later.
Once you take the action the Chief recommends, you’re “in for a penny and in for the pound”, so to speak. So, after that point the Chief and his boys can now trust you, because, they now have good reason to believe that you must defend the conspiracy.
It’s like the Mafia giving the new member an assignment to kill. Once he does it, they believe they can trust him, because they have something on him. So it goes in corrupt police departments. When the bad guys get enough power, they demand that the good guys do something criminal, to prove themselves to be one of the clan.
I believe that this was the kind of pressure that Serino was working under. He had to do something criminal, to prove that he was one of the boys, or not be allowed to work the case. After all, how could the bad guys risk it? The answer is, they couldn’t! If Serino had not done what he did, to prove himself loyal, a bad guy would have been given the case and the evidence not developed and more of it munged, lost, or otherwise tainted.
These boys were playing for keeps, and so, it’s hardly a wonder the neighborhood was cowed, because GZ was the SPD’s front man! MO was his handler, because he had, for all appearances, severed his ties with the SPD, when, in fact he very likely had not. We’ll probably learn more about him later, I suspect.
Very interesting. I wonder where she got that information because it wasn’t from listening to the NEN call.
what’s interesting is this event detail right here ~~~> Event# 20120571677
2/26/2012 19:18:31 Believe someone has been shot
2/26/2012 19:18:31 Someone laying in the backyard
2/26/2012 19:18:53 Compl heard shot fired
2/26/2012 19:19:17 BM standing over subj
****HOLD UP! I thought TRAYVON was the one shot****
2/26/2012 19:19:18 EVT Dupe
2/26/2012 19:41:05 Event cleared
WTF! I wonder if this is John’s (W6) call!
Not by the M.E.’s report: Seems Serino told the ME that GZ called 911 on a black male running between the buildings at 7:10 pm. He pursued him and shot him. http://tinyurl.com/c56jtby
Wow, this thing gets curiouser and curiouser, eh?
@Lonnie Starr:
I wanted to tell you that i have truly enjoyed your posts. They are very enlightening and informative. I read the autopsy for TM. I have witnessed several in my career as a Nursing Student and as a Professionl Nurse and they are very hard to bear. I cannot imagine the DA reading this report in court if ths was my son. So sad. I hope they put that POS GZ away for as long as they can! He shot this boy without provocation. He just didn’t care. GZ is hoodlum, a common criminal who pretends. They should brand on his forehead when he arrives in the Florida State Prison, “Justice for Trayvon Martin!”
Thank you for your kind words of support. I hope that I’m giving people a reason to look deeper and not just accept what they’re told.
I know that up to a point, we need to be able to accept what we’re told and act upon it. But, there’s a limit to when, where and how often we need to do that. If we continue to do that in general, simply because it makes life seem easier and less complex, we’re allowing ourselves to let society trend back towards the middle ages. A time when authority reigned supreme because superstition could not be fought successfully with either science or reason and logic.
Because of our current level of scientific and technological advancement, we’re living in an extremely dangerous age, should medieval mores again take hold of us. Now, more than ever, we must each take the time, needed to determine that we are being told the truth, in each case that matters to us. That won’t prevent us from being fooled, but it will prevent those doing the fooling, from acting in consort together and that in turn will preserve freedom and keep justice happening. The most important thing is, that the quest for justice be kept alive. If not, we’re toast!
This is crazy: The 911 people report that the nearest intersection is Long Oaks Way, not RVC which is closer to the mail boxes??? Does 911 use GPS I wonder? Is that how they place GZ that far south on TTL when he makes the NEN call? Because if GZ can’t remember TTL’s name, he certainly can’t remember LOW, so they couldn’t have gotten that location from him. Besides, if anything, he keeps trying to conceal where he is from them. Anyway, have a look at the documents: http://tinyurl.com/avykxvm
Can you provide a link for the above?
I find it very interesting and would like to read the whole thing.
Whoever made the comment about lies is ABSOLUTELY right.
We had a bunch of collectable china, art works and other things…Red Skelton SIGNED paintings……Ron Lee limited edition clowns….We were involved with a consignment outfit to sell this stuff on eBay……then things got bizarre.
We went to Adult services Elder abuse (financial exploitation) today…..with the documentation I showed them of their lies and underhanded dealing they are turning their report over to the police for possible fraud charges…….
Yup….once you start lying……then you need to create other lies to cover the ones you’ve already made……inevitably there will be contradictory lies…….as with fogen…..ditto for the people we’re dealing with.
Honesty is always the best policy & respect begets respect..
I really do expect fogen to run or cap himself……..
I would much rather picture that POS in prison, and what he’ll endure.
An old saying you may not have heard?
“All the tough guys are either dead or in prison”
JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON
Ya’ll take care, & have a good night.
Patrick
@Patrick
As requested ME report
on page 137 of 184
http://www.axiomamnesia.com/TrayvonMartinFiles/Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-FULL-case-report-documents.pdf
TY Blushed
Just so you don’t miss it, here: http://tinyurl.com/c56jtby
“Confronted by resident”……….I don’t see how he can beat that?
Normally the defense would call that report hearsay. But, under the circumstances that won’t matter, the SP must have a doozy of a theory of guilty to put before the jury.
In the opening statements they’ll lay out what they have evidence to prove what they say happened. They’ll explain SYG and SD law and cover NW rules. The defense will have little to say of relevance, except to rattle past everything the SP has said and cast aspersions by way of making faces and pejorative gesticulations. Because they dare not make any claims that, in the effort to prove them, they will have to open doors to things like character, experience and such.
The SP will have virtually control of the entire case, with the defense merely consigned to effectively “yapping at their heels” like some noisome Pomeranian. O’Mara will probably ask a few silly questions then pretend for the jury that the answers are portentous by making facial expressions and emphatic hand gestures.
Q: “When you arrived at the scene, did you not see the defendant with his hands in the air?”
A: “yes!”
Q: … And did you know, at that time, where his gun was located?
A: “no!”
Q: So, you saw the defendant with his hands in the air, but you… Let me see if I’ve got this right… You didn’t know where his gun was? Is that correct?
A: “Yes sir!’
Q: Okay, no further questions!
Obviously O’Mara can go on like that for hours, asking a series of pointless questions, and pretending the answers mean something that he’s attempting, and succeeding at proving. Then all he has to do is mount a fiery if meaningless summation in closing. Whirling around, stabbing accusatory fingers into the air, pounding the jury rail, raising his eyes and hands to the heavens and such. All while implying, suggesting and conjecturing that the SP has not made their case. Interspersed with a reference, here and there, to some inane testimony he elicited during the trial: “Need I remind you, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you hear (so and so) say, she did not see the gun when she arrived! Yet!!! According to Ofc Smith, it was right there, in plain sight, on the front seat of his car!!!” (While acting as if that means anything). [Consults his notes] Yes, it’s right here, [flipping pages] Ofc Smith [he quotes:] “I placed the gun on the front seat of my car”. Gestures wildly in the air, and they [ points accusatory finger at BDLR] would have you believe that to be true!
Yeah, this trial will be a sight to behold, lots of SNL material here and enough left over for Letterman and Leno as well.
The report also says that the victim fell to the ground (137). I am really curious where this ME investigator got this information.
POC (point of contact) Serino
Also meaningful in ME’s report is that SPD did NOT request gun-shot residue kit to be completed. Why not?
Let’s see, this would be at 7:10, just one minute after GZ’s claimed start of his NEN call, and while TM was still in the mail shed. Now he’s moving between buildings? While GZ is telling NEN on tape, “he’s coming towards me now?”
…And while I’d also like the link to this doc., even without it, I can’t understand why people are putting all these very suspicious, but helpful-to-GZ, “coincidences” aside.
Note the nuances of the MMA blows story, that they moved towards the concrete! Doesn’t this mean that the MMA guy, knew that GZ needed concrete in his story, to cover the blood on the back of his head? Because the other witness, who views this same slice of time, sees no move towards the concrete and no blows of any kind.
So, how does MMA Blows man know to include, something that he didn’t see, in his story? I can think of a million and one things that MMA Blows Man didn’t see that night, how did he manage to pick out or fashion, a move to the concrete, from among them???
So, MMABlowsMan already knows that GZ’s head is bloody and that he will claim it was smashed on concrete as the cause. So, he’s trying to ensure that his story will corroborate GZ’s claims. But, how does he know this at that time? Obviously he could not guess about, which of several million, zillion possibilities of things he did not see, would be needed to make his claims seem to corroborate GZ’s, as yet unmade claims.
The taint of conspiracy abounds in this case and, because the SPD went along with it, that taint is now extending to them. Hardly a wonder MOM has gone silent.
@ff
2/26/2012 19:19:17 BM standing over subj
Isn’t that abt the same time as the photo of Fogens head being taken? I wonder if this is that?
ugh..
need more coffee
should read…He thought he had it in the bag.
The witness who reported a black male standing over the body was Mary Cutcher. She was not watching the scene and was relaying information she received from Selma Mora Lamilla, who was still at the back door. Mora did not actually see a black male standing over the body. Cutcher’s remark was the result of a miscommunication between the two women
@Debra Moore:
Forgive my laziness, but where’s the part that says Fogen went on to confront Trayvon twice before killing him?
Not sure what to make of 2 confrontations…….
They could be referring to the time when fogen says Trayvon approached his car…
Just a thought
FYI, in the ME CASE REPORT, which follows the autopsy report it says that the resident, GZ confronted TM. Its on page 2. There is also a hand written check list a few pages later written by ME Malphurs that also says TM was confronted by a resident and another reference says confronted and shot. Bottom of the page.
It’s also in GZ walk through reenactment and in his interviews in the station that night with Singleton and Serino. GZ states that Travyon walked up to his truck and asked him why he was following him. GZ states that he told TM that he wasn’t following him and rolled his window back up. Then GZ says that Trayvon came back and circled his truck, that was yet another opportunity, for GZ to explain himself, that GZ does not take advantage of, even though he now knows that he has been discovered following.
GZ knows the NW rules, so he should have attempted to diffuse the situation right then and there, rather than allow it and the hostilities, to escalate. Finally, they later learn from DD that Trayvon asked again why he was being followed and GZ again refused to explain, but instead began to reach for some unidentified object as a response.
Although he claims the unidentified object he was reaching for — when fearing a confrontation was about to go physical — was a phone to call 911. But the fact is, GZ also had a firearm that he could, just as well have been reaching for, because it was in the same general area. GZ never once considers that TM could not become excited by his unexplained actions.
When confronting a stranger who refuses to answer a query, but instead begins reaching into his clothing, the logical expectation is that he’s preparing to draw a firearm. GZ makes no allowance for any such impression being given.
Yes, I 2 would call each of the 3x Fogen describes he & TM coming face2 face as confrontations he caused. But, I think he drove past TM & TM simply walked towards him the 1st time. I dont think the 2nd circle took place, the time line is impossible. & the 3rd, by jumping out of his truck and following, he caused that 1 too. He even shows himself turning & going BACK to confront TM after he appears from the dark/bushes ( dark bushes!?) before going for his phone in the reenactment.
@Malisha,
Well Good Morning to ya!
Here you go… page 137 case summary report
and page 139 under pertinent notes….
http://www.axiomamnesia.com/TrayvonMartinFiles/Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-FULL-case-report-documents.pdf
I think John (W6) took flip flop courses from the Romney Camp.
All kidding aside.
People backtrack, and retract statements all the time when they feel they have been “caught in a lie”, or have second thoughts about what they “said”.
This to me is unforgivable, and IMO, he should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law!
For a child to lie about taking a cookie, vs, John lying about circumstances involving the murder of an unarmed teen? I say he should do time in jail.
I think he should do time in jail also but, we are dealing with the state of Florida where anything goes. but then again, Casey Anthony did serve time for all of the lying that she did and, john should to.
When I think of the repercussions this could have had on the trail had he not retracted his statement? What impact could it have had on the jury? Look at the impact it had with the Z supporters.
I taught my children from a very young age that doing wrong, and lying, has consequences. Just because he developed a conscious, should he be off the hook? My vote is NO!
Well, if ShelLie goes to jail for perjury AKA lying, Witness 6 should be telling the truth on the stand.
There seems to be alot of lying in this case. I can just hear Osterman milling about, talking to people on the scene (including witnesses) saying:
YOUR neighbourhood watch guy found this kid looking into houses and the kid ran when he saw he was caught. So, YOUR NW guy called 911 and the kid heard it and came back to kill YOUR NW guy so he couldn’t identify the kid. Didn’t you hear him screaming for help when the thug was on top of him beating the good guy to a pulp.
I call it influence and witness tampering. Of course the witness is going to side with the alleged good guy – try to help him out. Especially when you are not absolutely sure about what you witnessed.
Plant the seed, plant that seed.
I agree with you Seallison. Lies, deception, and very faulty investigations run rampant in this case.
If Osterman did that, he should be charged with witness tampering.
Professor we may never know what Osterman really did that night and the days following unless he or someone else opens their mouth. He already admitted in his book that he left SheLie at the station to supposedly go home to clean up dog vomit or something like that. What makes that suspicious is just before that he states he was out walking his dogs with his wife, before leaving to go meet with SheLie. In that time frame his wife was suddenly too sick to clean up the mess the dog(s) made(but it also needed to be cleaned up right now), but was well enough to be up to having guests in the home.
Osterman seems like the type to try and push the more weak/easily led witnesses to speak on the side of fogen rather than the truth.
I wouldn’t trust him as far as I could DRAG him.
Me either. i thought he was slimy before the Dr. Phil show, but after the book, that interview and some of the other ones well my opinion couldn’t get any lower at this point.
Didn’t Jeremy change his story and position at the time of the shot? Oh, BTW, let me switch that up. Yeah, right. Something isn’t right there either IMO.
IIRC, I think he changed it to that he was in the kitchen, he told FDLE that if I am not mistaken. Only had one cup of Cappuchino, so I will double check.
LMAO! I also wonder if this witness was threatened in any way by either Fogen or some of his handelers. hopefully the dumbfence will not be able eto delay the start of this trial because, Fogen needs to be locked up and away from society with the rest of his kind. I still don’t understand how he was allowed to bond out of jail twice. is this something that’s unique to the state of Florida?
“Shrug?” Who knows? They have people who take alligators, for rent, to swim in backyard pools at children’s birthday parties……….why would they be concerned about letting a lying murderer bond out?
Kindheart, I couldn’t agree with you more!
Police made the 13 year old boy who was walking his dog change his statement, by correcting what he said and telling him what he saw. They did that with other witnesses too, as we know. Probably Jon-MMA was perfectly willing to go along with what Tim Smith told him he saw, up until the time when Bill Lee got wiped out, Morganstern shut his mouth, and Wolfinger slunk away into the woodwork. Then John MMA had second thoughts about his first imaginations. Those MMA punches turned into — well — into sort of nothing.
I think if he indeed lied, he will not be doing any more flip flopping than he has already dun and Im sure someone from the SPD told him he will be prosecuted if he changes his story so that may make him stick to his 2 stories and wiggle inbetween. Is he the John who took the picture, and if so, would he know if the picture released is th orginal picture? All the people who saw the orginal photo, can tell us if its the one they saw that night
espically if GZ can talk to witness now. I wonder who he wanted to speak with, the ostermans? i would not trust GZ and I think he will try and tamper witnesses.
Coerced may be an appropriate summation Erica.
Some people are leaders, others are followers. John may have been talked into seeing something he didn’t? Does that make it right? NO! A 17 year old was lying dead.
My stomach is turning. I don’t trust or believe any of them!
I’ll BBL
This is not the same Jon who took the photos.
@Professor:
I don’t know Professor, but I have to obtain a copy of the ME report and read it in full. I had no idea that Fogen had confronted TM TWICE! Looney outdid herself on this one. When she posted it, the Z Brigade was ducking for cover and mocking it! LOL! Also, Professor, I know what the penalty is for lying to the cops but what is the penalty for obstruction of justice and witness tampering? What do you think will happen with Serrino, Smith, Wolfinger, Daddy Zimmerman and the others who participated in this cover up?
Obstruction of justice applies to other misconduct.
Witness tampering on a murder 2 charge, IIRC, has the same potential maximum sentence as murder 2. That’s a life sentence (although it may have been a 20-year max)
I wrote an article warning the pro-defendant camp that doxing Dee Dee could constitute witness tampering and they should consult lawyers before doing it, or face the consequences.
@Professor Leatherman:
Thanks so much for taking the time to answer my questions. I never realized how harsht the penalties were! WHEW! Now that Detective Serrino has deposed, Jose Baez as his attorney, I wonder if he is going to “snitch” on Wolfiner, former Chief Lee, and Daddy Z? The corruption appears to run deep in Sandford,Florida. How are these police officers going to explain why they were trying to change the witness testimony? What if MOM asks them about their testimony and then asks who coerced them to change what they claim they allegedly heard? When I mention this over at HP, I get nothing but excuses! LOL! Wow!. If I am going to bring myself down, you better believe, I am going to get something out of it. All of these powerful men, were jumping over the bus to get this case covered up, and now look where they are?
I do not believe the issue will come up at the trial because an officer’s opinion about the guilt or innocence of the defendant is not admissible.
The prosecution does not want to bring it out and the defense can’t do it.
The prosecution probably will move in limine for an order preventing the defense from asking any witness if Serino told them that the defendant was the person screaming. The question calls for inadmissible hearsay.
It’s inadmissible hearsay because the answer would be offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted in the statement. That is, that the defendant was the person screaming.
The witnesess, of course, will be permitted to describe what they saw or heard.
I do not believe anyone changed their opinion about who was screaming based on what Serino said.
The enhanced recordings of the 911 calls will be played for the jury to hear, particularly Jennifer’s call with Trayvon shrieking and begging for his life in the background until cut-off by the shot together with the defendant’s voice ordering him to STFU just before the shot.
@Professor Leatherman:
Once again, thank you Professor. I am thinking that if the witnesses say, ‘Well i heard this but Detective Serrino told me that it was not TM but GZ.’ Could the prosecution ask them this question? As far as the 911 call is concerned, I have heard it several times, and I cannot imagine what the jury will be thinking as they listen to TM screaming, begging, pleading and screaming, ‘I don’t know! I don’t know em!’ Then to hear Fogen in the background interrogating him?? Fogen had no idea that, that little exchange was ever going to be captured by a witness. He could lie about a lot of things, but he cannot lie about those voices and the dialogue. The enunciation, tone, cadence and accent is one of a young teenager and not a man! I hope to god the jury can distinguish that because I knew it right off the bat because I have a teenage boy.
Fear not, there’s nothing magical about it. The jury will be asked to decide, if that’s an armed adult, frightened to death of an unarmed teen, or if it’s an unarmed teen being terrorized by an adult who, as an ex barroom bouncer and security “muscle-for-hire”, was no stranger to physical hand to hand combat.
It just won’t seem logical that the adults screams would stop at the gunshot, where GZ claims he did not know if he hit him. So, then why does he stop screaming? It TM wasn’t hit, why does he lay face down, very still on the wet grass? Is that something anyone expects a live person to do? A face full of wet grass is so uncomfortable, I’d expect a live person to roll over, no matter how many weapons were trained on him.
GZ has been watching too many movies, to think that a 17 year old kid with no training at all, is going to be able to look someone in the eyes and kill them. It just doesn’t work that way, as any military man can tell you. GZ is toast!
Here’s the ME report, recently referred to and yep, it states exactly that: a 911 call, placed at 7:10 pm was about a black male running between the buildings. http://tinyurl.com/d4x2y6b
It’s in a post labeled the 10th document dump, should be first up today. You’re looking for page 12 of the pdf.
@DGM
Here is the link page 137 and bottom of 139 of
http://www.axiomamnesia.com/TrayvonMartinFiles/Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-FULL-case-report-documents.pdf
IIRC, I had posted a comment about this when the discovery came out in May or June. The gist of the post was about how did the ME have more info in the case summary then what was being reported in the cop statements. If I find the comment will post for you.
Hope the link helps.
The ME investigator would have been briefed by cop at the scene, as opposed to independently investigating the case at the scene by interviewing civilian witnesses.
Gracias
I’ve been bust working the past week and haven’t had the time to catch up on all the other thread…I hope I didn’t miss anything important.
I think witness 6 changed his statement because he realized that he said he saw things that he didn’t actually see. Such as Trayvon hitting Fogen and not actually knowing who was screaming. He seems to clarify things in his second statement. He explains why he thought it was the guy on the bottom screaming and admits that he never saw Trayvon hit Fogen and exlains why he used MMA style.
I don’t think that he purposely lied in his first statement. I think that due to influences of Fogen and certain cops on the scene that in his mind Fogen shot the bad guy. I think that W6 said he saw what “must have been happening”.
Fogen said the black guy was beating him and he had a bloody nose, so in W6′s mind, that must have been what the guy on top was doing when he saw him. When he gave his statement, this is what he believed to have happened, so he said that is what happened.
I guess I’m leaning towards a guilty conscience as to why he changed his statement. I could be wrong though.
For why he changed his statement, I’d rate it this way:
1. Realized he could get in trouble;
2. Realized the public opinion was turning against Fogen;
3. Realized this was not under Lee’s control any more;
4. Realized he better not be caught lying in THIS investigation;
5. Guilty conscience (a very weak fifth explanation in my opinion).
Malisha…I did say I could be wrong. lol
I listened to John’s FDLE interview. I think he specifically coordinated his first story with Fogen (iirc you coined “Fogen” and it’s stuck, good on you!) and maybe with Fogen and Tim Smith and/or… ?… It is simply too close to The Fogen “party line” to not be a deliberate lie, imo. Getting back to the FDLE interview, I think John watched MMA at night when his girlfriend was asleep. Yeah, I went there. The way he described “MMA” and how it’s “everywhere,” as he and the older, wiser interviews had a good laugh made me almost laugh. In other words, I think John is a person who doesn’t live his life honestly, had no problem not being honest (conscience as motivation for telling FDLE something resembling the truth?- not even on my list- fear and self-protection) and somehow that night and before was mixed up with Fogen. Just my personal opinion.
I think everyone coordinated their story with Fogen, to a fault. I always felts Sr, Jr, Osterman followed a script. And yeah, T Smith may have been involved too. MOM used to say, if the stories always sound the same, then you need to worry about it being a lie. The way these people who werent there were able to rattle off specific details that probably didnt need to be revealed if they werent part of a cover always caused me pause. For instance, the way Sr knew every detail of the T intersection, and described GZs course perfectly, keeping him on the path. GZ could have been telling the story and it wouldnt have been more consistent with his own. Same with Ostermans detailed description of the struggle and their positions etc. All seen very self/GZ serving. Normally people dont go into such detail and speak from emotion, and in generalities.
Plus, Serino said it all sounded scripted!
@Manberk
Your post is dead on.
A little FYI, Smith told Singleton, before she interviewed GZ “that it might be self-defense” . Its in the report about Singleton. Why did he feel the need to tell her that? Would that have changed her questioning of him? I am so glad Singleton did her job. She was good.
Xena- find me on your blog and email me so I can send you something in private. Thanks
Okay. Sorry I’m late for class today.
@blushedbrown:
Thanks blushedbrown! I will be reading tonight! I had no idea of what was in this report. The Zim family over at HP is pretty quiet today. I don’t think that they expected Looneydoone to post what she did. You know their stupid A$$es never read anything so they are now aware of what is in any of the reports, though something tells me, that they really do. They just refuse to acknowledge the truth about the killer.
Deborah Garner Moore,
I’d submitted that comment at least a dozen times in the past 2 days, and it finally slipped past the *watchers*
I’m street savy, have feral instincts and a near photographic memory. In other words, I am a formidable opponent.
The only challenge is in getting comments approved and published. At the moment they’ve resorted to holding back everything but the trolls, who are running roughshod on the huffingtontreehouse site. It’s a cesspool, but gets enough traffic that it necessitates wading in, and fighting the good fight on behalf of Trayvon and the family.
@DGM
You are so very welcome.
You know those guys over there don’t know what “Discovery” means.
Keep showing them the reports.
Obviously NW was brought up to the ME or it wouldn’t exist in her report. And if he wasn’t on NW there’d be no reason to bring it up. So it’s easy to deduce this was the story as it was conveyed to her. The first call to the MEs which i think included a description of events appears to be by Serino and was reported at 8:30,independent of Fogens presence and the details of his lies he would later give. So my belief is this is what Serino gathered and suggested based on the evidence he had at that time. JMO.
Remember that there was at least three officers on site that had previous encounters with GZ from previous NeN calls from him about the neighborhood.
Information from Discovery dump number two.(284 pages)
Davilla: (2 or 3 times), calls need assistance suspcious suspects
Mead: Dealt with Z before at complex when Z found open
doors/houses. Z reported suspicious persons that he had lost sight of when they(Susp Person) went around a building, Z had been on foot when Mead met him.
Smith: 3 calls including 2/26
2/2 call about 1460 Taaffe home
1/29 call kids playing in street
Information from Nen calls made by GZ
http://viewfromll2.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/george-zimmermans-911-call-history1.pdf
Crosstalk from police radio communication:
Make sure you get reports done. Oh yeah him, that NW guy.
Almost all the first officers on scene knew him in relation to NW or from responding to calls that he made to NeN.
Some of the witnesses knew he was part of NW.
They took the word of one man John and GZ and deemed that it was self defense at the time, but I think that the some officers may have told Serino of his history and that set off alarm bells to Serino that this might not be right or he may have taken it too far this time.
I think that’s why the ME reports states as much information as it does.
I hear ya, but saying he was on NW that nite, is very very different that him being part of it, especially considering I believe he was patrolling. And it seems like she got her info directly from Serino. So it would have had to be Serino who conveyed it incorrectly if thats the case. Something to think about.
I totally think the officers who knew and had experience with him were paramount to his avoiding charges at first. They thought he was a good guy and took him at his word. But upon closer look the constant from cousin, girlfriends, co workers, is he had the ability to deceive people easily.
Manberk
Wrote in part:
I totally think the officers who knew and had experience with him were paramount to his avoiding charges at first. They thought he was a good guy and took him at his word.
YES! I do agree with you. Add also John’s intial statement, GZ that he had it in the bag.
@Manberk.
GZ was the only member of NW in that gated community. He was the only person given to residents to call about suspicious activity. It’s a volunteer position and he volunteered to call NEN on the evening of 2/26/12.
No matter what his purported intentions were when he left his house that evening, when he called NEN he put on his NW hat. Otherwise, he could have called another NW volunteer and had them observe while he went about his own business.
As GZ sat in his vehicle keeping an eye on Trayvon, he was “patrolling.” When he got out of his vehicle and followed Trayvon, he was “pursuing.” No matter how the Zidiots and GZ play semantics, GZ’s actions define the words.
@ Xena. I know and agree. But my original point was kinda neither the ME or Serino knew this. So I do think Serino may have conveyed what he believed/assumed to be true, that GZ was patrolling on NW. I think its highly likely based on other testimony that suggests he patrolled/ and the absence $ and CCs that he was. And yes, he wore the cap regardless. In the Sanford NW PP he was familiar with it does say NW is a 24/7 obligation. So as you said, it really doesnt matter. We know the truth. He represented NW regardless.
@manberk.
I don’t remember the date of the report. It could be that GZ had a reputation of being a nuisance caller. Or, if that report was written after 2/27/12,it could have come about by listening to his 2/26/12 NEN call along with reading his written statement where he wrote about NW and basing his actions on something that occurred on 2/2/12.
The hand written notes appear to have been written that night, 2/26. The typed report had to have been 2/26-2/27, because there is an addendum added 2/28, after they IDed TM. So my thinking is this was (could be)how it was originally reported to the ME. I just have trouble understanding why the fact that he was NW would be conveyed to the ME unless it was relevant. This was a crime scene report and investigation. If he was not thought to be on NW it seems unnecessary to include it and actually use it to suggest how they came in contact. Although anything is possible. Im just taking it at face value.
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/trayvon.martin.autopsy.pdf
@manberk.
I understand. Singleton interviewed GZ that same night. Based on GZ’s actions and written report, she may have communicated that to the ME.
I think it says she got her info from Serino that night. Its on page 2 of the Medical Examiner Case Report, which I cant copy and past here. It says, paraphrased: Point of contact, IDed as Serino, stated the following: he (fogen) observed a B/M while walking his neighborhood watch.
I seems like a direct quote from Serino, since it says stated. But of course its totally possible there was some confusion. I just think facts seem to confirm he was NW, and its possible he was patrolling. So a very curious thing to see in this report, IMO.
@Manberk
I was checking out what exactly was the duty between ME office and Serino.
Found this from Florida statues.
406.14 Duty of law enforcement officers.—Any evidence material to the determination of the cause of death in possession of the law enforcement officers assigned to the investigation of the death shall be made available to the medical examiner. It is the duty of the law enforcement officer assigned to and investigating the death to immediately establish and maintain liaison with the medical examiner during the investigation into the cause of death.
History.—s. 8, ch. 70-232.
So this is what I think Serino did, he told EVERYTHING to the Medical Examiner. For one it is the law, and two he circumvented the Police Department. The only one who was to maintain contact with the ME, was the one investigating the death of Trayvon Martin, which at the time was Serino. A witness keeps getting tossed around that they saw the beginning of the fight. It was also asked by O’mara at the 2nd bond hearing. BDLR neither confirmed or denied, rightfully so. Loose lips sink ships.
I think that might be Serino’s Ace, the Medical Examiner.
Great, thanks for finding that! It appears he called at 8:30 and relayed some variation of the story included in the report. There are all kinds of possibilities as to its accuracy. But I would think since this was part of an investigation the standards for accurate information would be very high. I also think he was patrolling and he did do the confronting. Interesting to see at that early time.
Your welcome!
Totally agree with your post.
Don’t forget, O’Mara isn’t the only one who can misuse the system to reflect what information they want to put out. Each report they make is an opportunity to inject something they want to document. O’Mara used his motions, to get info out to the public. Serino used the ME, to do the same. He knew that the ME would faithfully report what he gave them, because it’s their job to do so. So, what the lead detective told them would be important enough to include in their report, even though they had not witnessed any of it. The idea is, why that information was being given, would later become clear as someone who needed to know it would reveal.
Obviously this information was obtained there at the scene, from the POC, before he had spoken to GZ and probably after he had spoken to T. Smith.
T. Smith knew GZ as NW, because he’d responded to his calls before. Thus, he assumed that it was not a problem that GZ was on patrol at the time, because he had not heard the NeN tapes and was not privy to the circumstances that led to the event.
I hear ya. And besides, the suggestion of going to Target wouldnt absolve him from the responsibility he chose to take part in 24/7. Its in the Sanford NW powerpoint. 24/7. Although Lee tried to cover for him by saying he wasnt on duty, there is no duty. He chose to engage under the guise of NBW no matter how you slice it. Its no surprise the cops who supervised his watch, and the HOA would deny culpability. They share in the liability for encouraging this monster and his criminal past. Which they apparently lied about too, initially.
I’m sure they knew he was patrolling! Even Serino says he was told that GZ was patrolling. Because we know Serino wasn’t there soon enough to get that information from GZ and give it to the ME. So, he had to have gotten it from one of the officers there who had an idea about it, and knew that GZ was the NeWaCapCom! (hee hee hee, little miljar there.)
But, since GZ had not described to anyone, how he came to be in that situation there at the scene, save to recite the last few moments of it, the rest of the story that Serino narrates to the ME, has to be conjecture, cobbled together as “what had most likely happened”.
Thus the NeWaCapCom was assumed to be on another one of his frequent armed patrols, and decided that he needed to shoot someone who he did not recognize, for being in the neighborhood, without any obvious authorization.
I guess at the HOA’s trial, Tracy Martin’s lawyer’s will charge the HOA with negligence for not providing authorized-to-be-in-the-neighborhood clothing/uniforms/caps/stickers/id’s and patches, so they would be identifiable to their newly approved armed NeWaCapCom! Otherwise, who would know that they could be shot if the NeWaCapCom did not approve of their presence?
Nor could the HOA plead against the added expense, since they clearly would have only had to provide this material to those who entered while Black.
ME report on pages 11 and 12 (right click in the doc, select “show navigation buttons”, upper left, select the page stack icon. You can then navigate quickly to any page you want.)
http://tinyurl.com/c56jtby
It appears, by the addendum, that the report was written well before identification was made.
Thanks, Lonnie.
The ME report not only reads that the defendant was on NW, it also goes on to say that he “confronted the male and the two began to fight”. More telling is that fact that the ME report says that, “the resident fired a handgun at the male striking him in the chest. THE MALE FELL TO THE GROUND”. From this reading, I am sure that no one was on the ground (not to mention the dry grass free clothes and shoes of the defendant). I am sure that Trayvon’s clothing photos would have been leaked by now, if they were able to show wet knees where he straddled the defendant? There apparently were witnesses that witnessed more than has been presented thus far. I pray that those people have/will come forward and be honest about what they have seen.
Unless I miss my guess, the FBI re-canvassed the neighborhood. That’s their usual procedure, leaving no stone unturned. Even to tracking down people who were only visiting during that time. I’m going to guess that they don’t want their own investigation into the city government, to interfere with the criminal case, so they’re not making anything public. What they have is not discoverable, as it is outside the jurisdiction and is probably covered by work product protections. Of course, in the interest of justice they’ll pass along what is required to further the interest of justice in the criminal case, without damaging their own investigation.
We must not let them get away with, passing off that discussion of weapons and ammo over Trayvon’s dead body, as if he wasn’t human. That was the essence of racism and the fact that GZ could engage in it without a thought to the contrary, shows that he would rather have thought of TM’s death as inconsequential himself. His bio metrics show not the least concern for the human life he just took.
His words only confirm it.
@ Professor. Please check your -mail and respond.
Thank you very much.
The reason John recanted was because BernieDLR confronted him with the tape of his 911 call and asked him to explain the difference, promising not to charge him if he backed off the BS. There was no MMA fighting in the 911 call, simply two guys wrestling in his backyard. So his final statement is consistent with his 911 call. I don’t think either side will call John to the stand. He isn’t necessary to the state’s case, and he can only hurt GZ with the changes in his story. He’s been neutralized.
Mixed martial Arts is exactly that.
A mixture of Matial arts eastern in origin.
Karate is Japanease an is one form of martiaal cobat fighting or defencive style.
There are many.
Bruce Lee was amongst the first to itroduce mixed martial arts to the western culture.
Kung Fu or Wind Blow is a style of mixing up mant differnt fighting skills.
There is no ground an pound move in any Martial art or M M A.
Ground an pound comes from U F C Ultimate Fighting Championship.
Cage Fighting mimimal gloves on hands.
Its a mixture of boxing kickboxing an wrestleing.
This U F C style of fighting is where John grabbed the expression ground an pound.
Ground and pound? See? John simply could not have been mistaken vis a vis the forensics. Ludicrous in vivid detail and the Fogen’s same asinine story. He is a liar.
You would never see a Martial Fighting or MMA fighter pin a guy down at the shoulders with his knees an start wailing on him left an right fisted punches.
That is whats called a Ground and Pound in U F C.
The likey hood of ground pinning only happens in Judu.or Jujistu
An to have your opprnent pinned and or helpless is end of the move.
Your opponent either says the equivillent of uncle or taps out.
And you release.
You dont start wailing on an incapacited opponent.
Its agianst everything you are taught.
Most other type of martial arts if they wanted to kill or stop an oponent an had them at there mercy pinned down.
Could end the struggle with one punch.
If only Trayvon did know MMA he might have stood a chance.
But even Bruce Lee wasnt faster than a bullet.
Bruce Lee is faster than someone can pull a trigger with their finger though, and they need that trigger pull to unload the bullet, and he would have disarmed Fogen in such close quarters
In fact, an MMA fighter disarmed and beat the crap out of a car jacker a few years ago, and the guy had bruises all over his face
Perfect example of how you should know w6 is lying and so is the defendant because you should have bruises all over you on the same night of such an occurrence
Exactly!
Not unless you’re a fogenite. At which point you must believe that DESPITE what Fogen said as far as number of blows and how he was hit, despite pictures that paint a very different picture, Fogen miraculously survived almost being beaten to death, AND shot Trayvon before being seriously harmed.
In other words we’re supposed to believe that fogen’s body works completely different from the rest of humanity. Early on I had decided to reserve judgement until I saw pictures of Fogen and/or and EMT report. At which point i looked from that to fogen’s story(s), called BS and filed him under guilty as the day is long.
I hope you made up your mind around June 21st because I’m sorry to report that the days are pretty freakin’ short this time of year.
It was before then I am pretty sure. Something felt off from the start of course, but I was willing to give fogen the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.
I am lost
What is June 21st, 2013?
Summer Solstice: Longest day of the year.
time seems to be running fast lately
@Jun, time really is running fast and, seeing that January is almost over for this New Year, it means that Fogen is closer to getting his just desserts. I hope they can seat a fair jury because, Trayvon and his family deserve their justice, just as Fogen deserves a fair trial which O’Mara is always touting.
Those who will be chosen to serve on that jury should listen to the facts that will be presented and not the words of hatred from those who want to see this POS get away with killing an innocent child. also, for those who think this jury will be comprised of only white people, those days are gone and, this jury will be made up of people of different races. even though some who have made comments about, there is not a white jury in the state of Fla. who will find Fogen guilty.
These people are still living in another time and place and, they will never change.
Right, but you should see the knuckles of the guy who did that to him. They would look worse than this face because (a) less area for the same amount of pressurized contact; and (b) less flesh on the area, so greater bruising and abrasion per square inch.
Martial artists that I’ve read so far, say that they train students not to punch or hit using the knuckles. They teach students how to use other parts of the hand, arms and body to deliver blows, for exactly the reason you give. Untrained people and street fighters do exactly that and suffer great damage to themselves, even to the point of being unable to continue the fight if need be.
Because TM had no training, no practice and no inclination to fight, and because he was scared, he could not have any confidence that he could successfully apply any combat strikes at all. In his minds eye, any such thoughts of offense, would have him imagining himself facing an even more angry aggressor, to whom he had done almost no damage at all.
First off, who can actually envision that their in artful punching of an aggressor, would cause them much more than a moments pause? Even if you are a match for your opponent, you do not envision a single blow knockout! An untrained person would have even less confidence in combat, and would therefore avoid it at all costs. Most especially if the assailant was bigger, older, and appeared to be stronger. Surrender would be the only available response.
Hey Lonnie!
Real martial artists are trained not 2 use their fighting skill at all. Its counter to whats taught. & they are also informed their training can lead to greater charges than ppl they may fight who are not trained.
They also wear gloves. Big difference when ur not. Especially the ground£. From what GZ describes I would put it at impossible to avoid serious damage to TMs hands. Remember, he has no hair. He has TM cupping his head and pounding him into concrete. He should have the same injuries to the flesh on his outside of hands that GZ supposedly got from the head banging. His fingers should be manged. Then theres the 12 plus flush punches to the hardest part of GZ body, his head. It doesnt work with the non injuries, and the lack of D wounds on GZ.
But lets back up. Ground and pound isnt a martial art. It simply refers to one guy on top trying to beat the other into submission. Its the position most fight end up in, and end with eventually. MMA, which I am a huge fan of and watch as a spectator sport, simply found a cute little nickname for it. It really doesn’t mean anything, and its not part of any martial art. So, IMO, its all a huge distraction. Its the same sort of sensationalism the D, GZ, RZ and GZ Legal have been using all along.The NBPs, death threats, MMA,the black community, the MSM, broken nose, all my followers, the masses, etc etc.
And you touched on something. A real MMA practitioner would fight to their advantage. For instance, a smaller guy with less weight and strength would NOT engage in a grappling match with someone heavier. That played to GZ strength. He would have stayed on his feet and used his speed and fists- if he were trained.
But until I see something to back it up, again, a big distraction. And if MOM had something he’d have asked to see it as he requested TMs school records. The silence is deafening.
Before the bond hearing GZ had to be taken at his word for things, now that he did, what he did at the bond hearing, his word is worthless. So, now, GZ cannot be taken at his word, instead the opposite is true, if it cannot be backed up with evidence, any self serving statement GZ utters, has to be disbelieved, no matter how likely it may seem. If the defense cannot prove that it happened, we have to assume it’s a lie that did not happen at all.
Neither we, nor the jury, needs to know everything that did happen, all they have to know is, what they figure the evidence and the testimony, means most likely happened, beyond reasonable doubt.
If they don’t believe that it’s reasonable, for an armed adult to scream out in sheer terror, because an unarmed teen is near him, then, it is beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ was doing the screaming.
thats very interesting colin. i am interested in getting my little dude into one of those arts. and want to learn which one would be best for my kid.
i feel like martial arts are dignified and holistic and natural, like power yoga for me..good for young boys w/o fathers. or who need to socialize in a healthy way with smart active kids.
it’s not like football all vilent and aggressive. i hate football really. its weird to see really large grown men growling and shoving each other and rolling around on the ground just to get this little ball.
My son was in karate from about age 4 to age 11. (My husband originally enrolled him.) The instructor was very good with the kids. Although at first, the one noticeable result of his being in the class was that he knew how to kick me more effectively, even though the instructor regularly talked to the kids about not using karate moves against family and friends.
They’re finding that the repeated head banging the players take during their careers is ruining the rest of their lives. They’ve had a number of ex players commit suicide because they couldn’t get their heads straight again. Football and Boxing may be on their way out.
oh yeah i’ve been hearing a lot about that! and it starts as early as childhood!
yeah football is out of the question.
he needs something to give him confidence and inner strength. and discipline..
Boy Scouts?
Boys Club ?
Outward Bound
Boxing~ maybe. Football? NEVER.
OK John, now we know you lied,
your statement’s null, and now denied.
What was your reason, let me see,
could it have been, publicity?
Who talked to you, who made you say,
that Trayvon acted in this way?
You could have turned the juries head,
against this young man that laid dead!
You made it sound like he was wrong,
although you knew that all along.
You saw NOTHING, so I suggest,
1 YEAR IN JAIL, at very best!
You are quite the poet, Kindheart. You have real talent. Thank you for this poem!
Ditto that YAHTC
Thank you @You all have thoughtful comments, your opinion means a lot to me.
And, just to let you know. Please, I hope no one ever takes offense if I don’t reply right away. Most of the time I try to login for a few hours a day. I try to read as many comments as I can, and reply to them. With my health as it is, sometimes I just can’t, it is not because the desire is lacking.
Thank you again.
To My Mountain Buddy………..
You lift me up.
follow
I feel the defendant, whom was still free, was threatening residents
and the residents may have been afraid of him because he did just kill a screaming, unarmed teenager, whom was yelling for help
But that is where Omara gets in trouble, because W6, if Omara tries to bring up the recanted statement, will put w6 to have to tell why he lied because he told numerous stories
W6′s answer will be pure entertainment but he could just as easily just say he was mistaken about what he saw and apologize or even admit to something like the threats from Fogenhats
Because we all damn well know the W6 MMA story does not match his phone call, nor does it match the captured 911 scream tape, nor does it match forensic evidence, nor does it match other witness evidence
W6 could easily get impeached in court and his testimony completely struck out nor does it truly matter because Trayvon was allowed to defend himself and all that truly scientifically claim is Trayvon pinned the defendant down, which sounds like reasonable force to me, while yelling for help, because there is no foreign DNA whatsoever on the kid’s hands, sleeves, or cuffs, but I am even doubting the pinning story because of w6′s contradictory and inconsistent statements
@Jun, I think they felt threatened by this POS as well. Fogen should have been locked up the night he murdered a 17 year old kid instead of being let go by LE. those that let him go, should be held accountable for what they themselves did. how some people in this country can stand behind this fool, I just don’t know.
OMG, the good guys over at HP are really holding court today. those who support Fogen are not able to get a word in edge wise or any other wise. the truth is coming out just as it is suppose to do, when people think they have committed the perfect murder in the dark of night. it’s a well known FACT, that what done in the dark will come to the light and, Fogen is seeing this happen right before his lying eyes.
The snakes are getting really upset to the point of insulting our Joseph Norton. if I had my account there, I would give them a piece of my mind. this person Dino what ever can’t get mad a Joseph or anyone else for that matter, just because Fogen’s lies are starting to catch up with his ass.
I have an account there. Joseph is a friend of mine. I’m going! BBL
Exactly. Nothing John said can be trusted. The pinning part could as well be a lie to cover the previous lie.
I personally doubt John will suffer consequences for his lying and I guess I was naive but the ease with which people can lie to law enforcement after a murder no less surprises me.
I believe if not collusion (and I haven’t ruled it out) John knows a lot about the coverup since he was clearly part of it.
To be accurate, I am posting the Witnesses 6 documents and interviews courtesy of AxiomAmnesia for those who may need refreshers or those who are not familiar with Witness 6:
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-6-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/
Thanks for doing that.
@Romaine,
Wrote in part:
I am attempting to figure out why he lied.
Since his false statement matches the defendant’s false statement, I believe the defendant or someone on behalf of the defendant, persuaded him to lie.
I think what happened with John is that he was persuaded by GZ that he was the one who was the one in trouble, not the one who
CAUSED the trouble.
I believe the defendent talked to witness 6 (Johnathan) and witness 20(Jeremy).
The closest witnesses to the shooting are Wit-6 & 17 who live at 1221 Twin Trees Lane and Wit-11 & 20 who live next door at 1211 TTL.
Witness 17 (Amanda) wife of witness 6 (johnathan)(mma recant) called the neighbors (witness 20(Jeremy) while wife (Jennifer) was on the phone with 911.
around 6:17 in link ….
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-17-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/
So while wit-11 (Jennifer) is talking to 911 you hear her constantly telling Jeremy to come here. If you listen to Witness 11 ( Jennifer) 911 call towards the end of call , you can hear Jeremy talking in the background.
My conclusion based on the audio at 1:55, I hear GZ say to Jeremey. “F**ked him up good or something to that effect” I hear a clearing of a throat. I then hear @2:24 he says “somebody out back”, at this point he is talking to Amanda (wit17) from next door.
http ://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-11-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/
The shooting happen right in front of John’s back patio. There is a whole three minutes before law enforcement arrives at the scene.
Plenty of time for GZ to talk to Johnathan, Jeremy and Joe Manolo and get his pictures taken. All men.
While these three men are talking an comparing what gun was used, GZ has plenty of time to sway what they saw to his benefit. To find out exactly what they saw and incorporate that into his story.
John was crucial to GZ because he is the one who came out of his house, and GZ zeroed in on him. The way John spoke on his 911 call was after the fact. He didn’t say “There was a guy raining down mma style blows on his 911 call, he said they were wrestling on the 911 call. All this MMA stuff came after he spoke to the neighbors and GZ.
I think John lied for GZ because GZ fed a story to John of how he was the one in trouble but did not tell John how he followed Trayvon in his car then on foot and pursued and try to detain Trayvon. I believe John lied because he wanted to help him because he was NW and he assumed all young black males are bad. I believe that John lied for GZ because he thought it was the right thing to do for a guy who had a couple of scraps from a fight he did not know that GZ started. He lied for GZ because he assumed that everything he heard from GZ and neighbors were gospel.
Overall John lied.
He should not of embellished anything.
He played the “telephone game” and lost his crediblity.
I am with you blushedbrown, more generally, that is.
But concerning this:
My impression always was always, she calls some kind of pet, a dog maybe? If find it hard to believe any grown lady addresses her partner like that.
Who would name their dog Jeremy?
Women named Jennifer?
HA!
I have a dog named Mouse….Actually Miss Mouse
I once had a dog name “Fluffy” and he was a mean dog. Bitten both my brothers, but never me. He was famous for breaking chain link leashes.
A dog I had years ago…..one of the best I’ve had.
A Coyote / Shelti cross…..ugly as sin……..the heart of a lion……..and out family was HER pack.
Her name?
Emuti
Sorry Mountainman…………But I am laughing hysterically over that!
Ohhhhhhhhhh LOLOL
I have a cat that is 13 years old, with NO TAIL! I named her “Nubs”
Jennifer might have been concerned that Jeremy was chatting to an armed man who had just executed someone with a gun. Some teenager who was shrieking and begging for his life. She may have wondered if the shooter might decide to kill witnesses, starting with Jeremy.
Sounds and looks to me like Jeremy knew better.
I had a guinea pig named Priscilla.
A friend of mine had a cat called Fritz, actually Friedrich, like the king of Prussia. If it was serious it was Friedrich. Never though it would make sense to call him like this: Friedrich, get in here now, Friedrich get up here. Dog’s would obey, but cats not necessarily.
We hear her partner in the background so he can’t be far away. Get up here?
Thank you BB for your post! i really needed this broken down this way to understand the statements and 911 calls and time line!
also that part of
” My conclusion based on the audio at 1:55, I hear GZ say to Jeremey. “F**ked him up good or something to that effect” I hear a clearing of a throat. I then hear @2:24 he says “somebody out back”, at this point he is talking to Amanda (wit17) from next door. ”
i was just listening to that exact audio last week and trying to understand what was being said at that SAME time! but i thought it was *Jeremy* telling his wife something!
i had it on in the car full blast over and over and still couldn’t make it out.
But now i might actually understand some of it now that it may be gz’s nasty voice!!
that’s really creepy!!! damn …
@Shannon,
Thank you!
If you listen to W-17 audio first from Axiom then witness 11 call towards the end it will make alot more sense.
I am so glad that I was able to help you. It helps to listen on headphones. I usually turn up the volume a little on the 911 calls while wearing the headphones but not too much on the FDLE recordings.
Interesting that it sounds as if the police went to W6 and W17 door more than once the night of the shooting—
[[[[ W17-I didn't actually look outside until afterwards when they were doing CPR. So, that was the first time I looked out the window. So that was it. After that the police were here and we just, you know, sat around, closed our blinds so we didn't have to see what was going on, talked to the police everytime they came to the door. And that was it. ]]]
Serino also used MMA terms. How about that for a coincidence? At one point he even clarified what was meant by it; ground and pound. Which is a term referring to a full mount while also raining down blows. The use of the term of course has more to do with the person using it’s knowledge of the sport and nothing to do w/ anything TM did. ESPECIALLY considering he recanted.
I don’t know the truth. But it’s within the realm of possibility that John thought he was helping and bought the story being shoveled. When he recanted his story he said he assumed many things, who was screaming, whether or not punches were being thrown. He may have based it on what he heard GZ, Osterman, Serino were relaying on the scene. After giving it more thought, he may have been overwhelmed by guilt and the realization of what he actually saw, and felt the need to clarify, ie come clean.
So what we are actually left in his second/3rd story is pretty damning. He admits no blows were seen, and also admits TM could have been holding Fogen off! That’s quite a thing for the Ds star witness to suggest, idnt? His FBI interview is also not very helpful for the D. It’s completely different than Fogen describes. He may be of more help to the prosecution than the D!
@Manberk,
Thank you for your post. I agree with you that John got a shovel of bullshit, but John didn’t have to eat it. My problem with John is that he still has clung to who was on top and who was on bottom. That part he has not changed in any of his 3 or 4 statements. Considering multiple witnesses have Trayvon on bottom and no fighting or hitting was going on at the time of shooting, I find it very very odd, that he continues to hold onto that. There is something not right about that and I am digging a little deeper into John’s timing.
GZ DESERVES a good ground and pound. Unfortunately it looks like he’s been getting the surf and turf.
He can’t afford surf and turf.
@Blushedbrown.
He’s chunkin up on something……….LOL……….Pork and Beans?
@Kindheart101
oh boy, that made me laugh out loud, HA! Pork and Beans!
Somebody get the febreezeeeeeee, please!!!!
New open thread posted for today
He lied,just like Fogen he also thought Trayvon was a thug. When he found out Trayvon was no thug,just visting he felt bad an knew he had to correct himself. John just judge the book by it’s cover,before reading it,but when he read that book ,it was a good kid from a good family.
@TY
BINGO!
I’d like to know how you can ask about bullets when theres a kid who was unarmed lying dead near by.
I agree 100% with you, Kelly. I sounds like the way fishermen or hunters talk.
Sounds more like racists talking to me, trying to treat “the kill” as if it were inconsequential that a black child had been killed, by acting more like it was wild game that had been hunted and shot. That’s not weird at all, you read about that kind of stuff all through the ages of slavery in the south. White supremacists would like to keep that kind of disrespect going. So this kind of abnormal conversation is just what you’d expect died-in-the-wool racists to put on.
There is something terribly wrong with the mind, the area of the brain that is acute to feelings, compassion or empathy for a person to act like this in the presence of a deceased teen. (Or anyone for that matter)
I worked Hospice for years. And, no matter how well I (did or did not know) the person, and their family, when they passed, respect and sorrow for the loss of life was shown, and the grieving began.
In this case, Z, nor his family have shown any remorse. It was taken even one step further when Z replied to Hannity: “I wouldn’t change anything……and I think it was God’s Will”. I have never been so sorry I watched a program a day in my life. It made me physically ill.
Remember he also said he prayed for Trayvon’s parents…..
Was he praying to the same god than planned for him to murder Trayvon?
@Kindheart101.
Back around April on Yahoo articles when Trayvon’s death was mocked, I responded that death does not discriminate. It cares not about age, gender, race, pretty, ugly, financial status. No one knows when or by what means they will take their last breath on this earth. It absolutely shocked me that people would mock what they themselves will do someday.
It’s indeed good that you have had to luxury of not having had to meet such people. But they are here in this world and they do have to be dealt with. To do that, we need more people knowing what they do and how to find them.
One of the most aggravating things about slavery is, knowing that there were people like this, who were twisted and yet allowed to own slaves. That people like GZ could have been allowed to play out their sick fantasies with real people under their total control, is something that even the U.S. Government doesn’t want to acknowledge. Hence the government allows itself to be persuaded that no reparations are needed, even as they indemnify everyone else for the wrongs done to them. No “forty acres”, no “mule”, no compensation like they forced on Germany after the war. Nothing, just ignore it and it will go away. But no, I won’t get myself worked up, because slow and steady wins the race every time.
@Mountainmanpat
Honestly, I took that to be just another sadistic way of bringing more pain to Trayvon’s family and friends. I put that comment high on the list of all of his other lies and deceitful comments, meant only for his handful of believers, to show his human side. (Of which I believe he has none!)
@Xena
True, so very true! Many times I hear, (Death and Taxes) are the only things of certainty for any person. Actually, that’s not true Xena. You may spend time in jail, face bankruptcy, etc., if you don’t pay your taxes, but, DEATH is certain for all of us! Every single person will perish on earth. No matter who they are, how they passed, or what type life they lived, someone will mourn them when they die. I also read comments like that. I even read many, to this day, that say Trayvon deserved to die. Having sat with the terminally ill, as they took their last breath, it took my breath also. I knew I was present at their last moments on earth, and prayed I had been able to give them some sort of comfort. For me? The people who speak like this don’t make me angry, they make me sick. I get angry over lies, and manipulation. These people are just Sociopathic, and only feel for themselves.
@Kindheart101
I have wondered if their counterparts in the Middle East talked that way about the people killed in the Twin Towers, and mocked the death of those who jumped from the windows. Because that’s the thing — when they mock the death of anyone, and particularly those whose lives were intentionally taken by someone else, that include themselves under the category and spirit of murderers.
@Xena.
I will be honest with you and let you know, I knew someone like this for many years. He felt nothing for anyone but himself, he always came first. He never took responsibility for anything, it was always someone else’s fault. He demanded people support him, and always claimed he was the innocent party that people didn’t understand. He was every bit as bad as Z, and wound up spending years in Federal Prison after being diagnosed with Bi-Polar disorder, as well as other mental disorders. They feel no responsibility or remorse.
Military training is designed to instill in one that the enemy (whoever it is) is less than human…..It’s done to get the soldiers to have less compassion, and thus less regard for the enemies life.
@mountainmanpat.
Intuitive, and correct. Yet, much like Z, it was the mental problems that landed him in jail.
Kindheart.
I wasn’t saying anything in defense of fogen…..more so I was speaking of hate in general…..no different than indoctrination into a cult….fogen had never been in the military…..yet it appears he had the same indoctrination with his racist friends taafe, osterman and the rest, possibly even including members of the SPD.
In the not so long ago past the Boy Scouts were segregated…..and the KKK even sponsored scout troops….think of the indoctrinations those young boys got…….Now the scouts ban gays……more discrimination which is being instilled in the scouts of today even if indirectly, by policy.
@mountainmanpat.
OH NO! I was totally agreeing with you mountainman.
What you stated, I know to be the truth. And I find your summation to be very logical also.
My poet & poetry reading friend. Have you read Robert Service’s “My Friends”?
http://www.monologues.co.uk/Robert_Service/MyFriends.htm
@mountainmanpat.
Wow. What struggle. Pure depth. Beautiful, just absolutely beautiful.
Thank you so much for sharing that with me my friend.
Would you like a poetic laugh from Mr. Service?….Rather long….
“The Ballad of the Iceworm Cocktail”
http://www.explorenorth.com/library/service/bl-iceworm.htm
@mountainmanpat.
Darn you! You said poetic laugh? I was friggin grossed out! LOL
But the ending was poetic justice………:)
@Mountainmanpat.
Mountainman, you made me see,
that we share love in poetry.
Though different it may be in form,
no poem is ever held as norm.
We seek out words, we relish rhymes,
that remind us, of our best times.
Of bittersweet, and days gone by,
We laugh, we love, and sometimes cry.
So cheers my friend, I Smile and say,
I’m honored you’re my friend today!
I wish you well, and everything,
there is to give, and life can bring.
Thank you for being such a caring and wonderful person Patrick.
Been workin’ on one for years about my camp coffee pot…..dented and burnt to hell.
Working title is “This Old Pot”
Basic outline is I’m out camping by myself at night and a stranger walks into my camp……I welcome him….offer him a cup of joe, and proceed to tell him the story of the pot
“this old pots been to hell and back.
which is why it’s so black.
Cooked with most you could imagine.
From Redwood where the big trees grow.
To the Tumbleweeds the desert blows”
Anyway…a work in progress
@Mountainmanpat.
We are, and life is, a work in progress until we are no more.
Continue!!
@ Mountainmanpat.
Please know I am so sorry to hear of the passing of your wife.
Robert Service is one of the few I wish I’d had the opportunity to sit and have a few beers with……
I’ll leave you with one more of his, one that has helped keep my head straight through many difficult situations, including the death of my wife….I can recite it like a mantra…”The Quitter”
http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-quitter/
@Mountainmanpat.
That one I knew my friend. Powerful! I read that with a friend of mine, that I sat with, that died of breast cancer.
Thank you. I hope others read this.
That poem is a truth all the way through. I feel deep sadness and compassion for people who commit suicide. Sometimes it is too hard to keep on living. But there lies our glory; in keeping on until our God-given end. Thank you for sharing that.
They gave my wife a 15% chance of making 5 years when she was DXed as terminal…..2 years in, yeah I was at that point…..Then one of my brothers got hold of me……..no sympathy…..just a good ass reaming…….
“What the fuck dude….it’s a given your kids Mon is gonna die but no ” I can’t take it anymore”……Yeah and then leave your kids orphans?……..where’s your pistol? I load it for you, you selfish SOB”
After pulling his boot from my ass….I thanked him….and we had a good cry…..THAT’S Family
Yeah, just like in “Officer and a Gentleman”- guys need a good ass kicking to realize they are loved!
The “good cry” part is probably what started the healing process, along with nursing a few bruises….
BTW…..have you read that more Vets died of suicide than in combat last year?
The VA is bullshit.
mountainmanpat~ yes, I did read that. That is why I am sympathetic. Untreated PTSD must be terrible torment. I suffered from moderate depression and that was almost debilitating. I could go to work, BARELY, and return to be a mess at home. My partner is a Vet, but from peacetime. Well, if you consider military sexual abuse and harassment to be peacetime deployment. She’s getting treatment from the VA for that. I fear that too many men feel it’s not seemly for a military man to ask for help. I hope that atitude changes and that true intervention can come from the VA. Pat~ welcome home.
TY Cielo
Yeah I’m DXed with PTSD…… from my childhood in a children’s home….the army….whatever?….BTW….My mutt Mouse….Registered therapy animal…..
As YAHTC knows I had someone bustin’ my balls that I shouldn’t be allowed to own firearms…..Only reason they took that stance is that they were a zimbot…….and I was against them…….
I know. Totally unreal – like 2 guys just talking about hunting and bringing down a deer.
Not at ALL like a human being who had just taken the life of another – even if it HAD been in self-defense.
Just a totally wrong affect under any circumstances.
Sickening, Hardened, Unfeeling, Not Rational, Non empathic. Are these humans…….or hunters?
Makes me sick.
Almost a trophy-achievement mode of mind……..immoral
It shows you what they thought of a young Black boy on the ground dead. Black lives don’t matter to alot of people. They were able to talk about bullets because they are two race haters inside and now both there friends, family, and the world know It.
You’re surprised to see the face of racism emerge in this southern town?
@Kelly Payne, I don’t understand that one myself. I mean this MORON acted as if the IDIOT with the gun had just shot a damn animal or something other than a human being. why would he ask something so damn asinine such as that? like the old saying goes, there is a fool born every minute and, in John’s case, that saying is so true.
It was done on purpose, he was in on it all, that’s why he was ready with this conversation instantly. These are racists you’re seeing on display. GZ was reported as white in all SPD documents before he was accused of saying “coons” and started trying to refute it. His stupidity made him think that the Feds could come in, if he were discovered to be racist, and the good ol’ boys would lose jurisdiction.
GZ is the dullest tool in the shed, which is why he wound up as the groups front man. In white supremacist cultures, it’s the weakest that get pushed over the cliff, put out front to send the message.
White supremacist “eat their young” so to speak. They don’t even notice how disgusting they are, because they are unable to exercise good judgement and they’re anti social as well.
@Lonnie Starr
Indeed. Sovereign citizenship is the most current form of White Supremacists,and they appeal to people who blame the government for all of their personal problems, including that of being in debt. They care not what race the front person is, as long as it promotes the SC agenda. Wesley Snipes is a good example.
I agree with TY Flair…he lied…he thought Trayvon was a thug. Also, when he realized that “others” saw “struggling” instead of a “MMA” beatdown…he told the truth. I think he is still redeemable.
He told the truth because he was scared they were going to investigate him. Not because he’s changed his stripes.
I know it seems wrong but potentially the witness was just scared at the time. The man just killed a kid on a public pathway, and I am sure they all heard it and identify it as the victim. I think potentially the witness may be just stringing him along because he does not want to be silenced by the stalker murderer.
Let us say for example I am held at gun point by terrorists. I will be saying things and sweet nothings because they have the leverage at the point and I need to save my hide for the time being. I would even lie to the terrorist.
I am just theorizing because I feel that is what may have happened at the beginning as the 911 calls that night sound very frantic and scared of what was happening. Even Jeremy was telling 911 to hurry up, and then the kid was killed.
* laughing*…all kinds of sweet nothings…
I am being real LOL
would you start arguing with a dude that just executed a screaming crying kid in your backyard?
I’d wait till the cops are there and let them deal with him
but till then I would string the person along in case the person is jumpy
and the witnesses have a reason to have some fear as, the defendant saw them all and has an idea of where they live
I would say it was one person who look at Trayvon as the victim that night he was kill,an that was the teacher,she knew he was a kid,an she cried about it,an also the two lady room mates. But the rest of them look at Fogan as the victim. You see,you have a black male with know I.D. know one knows him,you got Fogen lying. Everyone out there thought Trayvon was a thug that night. An I believe John was talk to before he was recorded.
No I dont believe that
the only witness who semi supported the defendant was witness 6 but even his MMA story places the defendant as an aggravated stalker, since he was down the back pathway
It is a prime example of why lies dont work because multiple people cant keep their lies straight
All the other witnesses pretty much put nails into his coffin
Witness 11 did not give a very legible story but she said that she captured everything by telephone for the cops
Perhaps he was just trying to deal with the ultimate awkward silence.
On the other hand the question suddenly makes a lot of sick sense if GZ was checking for an exit wound. Of course that is pure speculation.
Fogen : “Hold on a sec, Jon, while I look see if it came out his back.”
Jon : “It didn’t. Dude, what kinda bullet ‘dja use?”
Maybe they’re all friends from the shooting range.
I have wondered if W6 knew George since W6 is about 30 years of age.
I meant to post that under jun’s comment.
Ya Know fogen at and right after he murdered Trayon was probably very proud of himself……”Ha…..that’s one thug that’s not gonna get away again”
I NEVER considered that he may have been looking for an exit wound……In thinking about it?…..I wouldn’t put it past him…….see how big a hole he made for his mental scrapbook.
If such is the case as to what was going through his mind right after murdering Trayvon…….?
And here I thought I couldn’t find the man any more disgusting than he is……Guess I was wrong?
I dont know but if there is a connection between Fogenhats and W6, it should be easy to find
I don’t care if Jon (witness) and Fogen spoke of bullets because they ASSUMED Trayvon was a thug. Trayvon was a human being, a KID, he was lying dead just feet from their disgusting conversation. Their conversation was a total disregard for human life and I call it sickening, depraved and inhumane. I hope this conversation is played out at trial to show, not only Fogen as inhumane and depraved, but Jon as the same kind of inhumane person as Fogen. Sickening!
Blushedbrown
Ive heard other people say they can hear gz at the end of the 911 tape.
Though they have it as gz says……….He F….cked me up pretty good.
Wich can be interperated as his first attempts to sway opinions.
@Colin,
Taking another listen that sounds closer to what I heard. Have you listened to that portion for yourself? and if so what did you hear?
@Colin
Yes. The first in many of his sways.
@blushedbrown:
How is Fogen going to explain his dramatic drama queen statement that Trayvon uttered once he was shot? I did not hear that on the 911 phone call. How is he going to explain why TM was begging, pleading and crying for his life? I was in a tizzy on HP demanding that the Z family produce the medical documents outlining GZ’s “head injuries.” After all, he had his head bashed in at least 25 times! All I get is stonewalling! I knew Fogen was a liar when I first became aware of this case. I saw this man, ambulate into the SPD station unaided, and unescorted in handcuffs, but yet, he claimed to be BRUTALLY BEATEN, within an inch of his life?
There is a black man on death row awaiting execution for bashing a womans head on the sidewalk either in Arizona or CA. I was reading The Upcoming Executions over on the Trutv.com website. This man only bashed her head once and she sustained massive injuries and she died as a result. Fogen did not fool me one bit with that head bashing fairytale! I have to much medical experience to know that he would have been in a coma, sustained brain damage or be dead if that transpired, and then TM did not have one iota of Fogen’s blood on his hands?? LOL!
@DGM
He won’t be able to wiggle out of those questions. If we as normal human beings can see by what little evidence we have digested, took apart, and reviewed, and what our basic common sense says he commited a most heinous act of murder.
My heart ,soul and mind tells me that rational human beings will sit on that jury and will find him guilty of Murder in the Second Degree.
I totally agree with both of you, blushedbrown and DGM.
this is probably what happened
Fogenhats
“I had that f**&^kin coon, I mean punk, with an inch of his life. I mean he attacked me and I fell down right away and he mounted me and than I shot him”
@DGM, I have medical experience and training as well and, I never for one NY minute bought this lie of his and his POS of a father’s lie either. IMO the old man told Fogen that he had better say, that he was the one screaming for help. as for his minor scrapes, like Xena has pointed out X number of times, some of those places were in the healing process.
One cannot have their head bashed against cement and still be able to ambulate in the manner which Fogen did or, ambulate at all. it’s not possible and we all know he is lying.
Just look what John says to Serino the first night. To me it seems to be based upon what gz told him (John–W6):
[[ "W6: Correct. Correct. So, I'm guessing, you know, maybe he was yelling out help 'cause he didn't want it to come to that point. And then it came to that point where he was on the concrete. And if you ever got hit on the concrete, it hurts."]]
I find this statement very odd. I sounds more like W6 is beginning to interpret or to spin a story rather than just stating facts. His 911 call was more factual:
[[ " W6: Police. I just heard a shot right behind my house.
Dispatch: Where at?
W6: And they're wrestling right in the back of my porch.
Dispatch: You just heard one shot go off?
W6: It was either that or a rockat the window or something, I don't know. The guy's yelling "Help" and I'm not going out."]]
Here are all his versions
(1) 911 call – claims there was wrestling and then the black kid was shot during “wrestling”
(2) SPD interview, the witness 6 claims MMA beatdown, close to concrete and the defendant was yelling for help a couple days after the 911 call
(3) FDLE interviews him again, and then Witness 6 gives his 3rd story, which is, the victim was just pinning the defendant on the ground, he was not sure if he was wearing red or white, and he believes the victim could of been yelling for help.
(4) FDLE brings up the contradictions, and then witness 6 gives a 4th story, and that is, he is not sure if it was hitting or just pinning on the ground, and he was now not sure who was yelling for help but he feels it could have been the black guy
(5) Bernie interviews the witness again, and asks him what he heard, and the witness stated that he never heard any striking noises at all.
So all I got in conclusion is, this witness is either lying or does not know what the hell he saw, especially the MMA story as there is no forensic evidence, evidence on the 911 scream tape, his own 911 call, and other witnesses of such an occurrence
Let’s also not forget that gz’s jacket was BLACK and red. If his shoulders were at any time facing W6, gz would appear to be wearing black.
Witness 6 said the man on top was lying down with face toward the ground…although he misuses the word vertically:
[[[ Witness 6: The guy on top was on top of the other guy, vertically.
Batchelor: And you're gonna have to maybe help me with vertically, when what you're saying, was he laying down?
Witness 6: Yeah, laying down, yeah. They were on the ground. Like, so if I'm standing up and I lay completely down flat, face first.]]]
W6 at first could not see who was on the bottom:
[[[ Witness 6: All, it was a dark colored jacket. It was like all black jacket, or somethin' like that. I just couldn't tell what was going on because I didn't see anybody underneath. I didn't see anybody on the left or the right, but then there was a guy on the bottom, that seemed like he was pushing up or, you know, I can't tell what it was, but then I finally saw, you know, like a guy on the bottom, and I heard, you know, "help, help, help" ]]]
Also, Trayvon’s pants were a light tan. How would that appear under the lighting conditions that W6 described?
[[[ Witness 6: All I saw at first, it looked like just one individual out there. It was dark. I couldn't really tell what was happening. ]]]
Also the sides of gz’s jacket are black + the sides of his sleeves from the elbow down are black.
I really think that W6 could not, in that lighting, have distinguished the colors of the person on the bottom, unless…..by white…..he meant Trayvon’s tan pants.
How could he have seen ANY red on the bottom? If George had been on the bottom, only the black of the sides of his sleeves would have been visible from W6 vantage point.
So, we have W6 initially lying about the MMA + lying about the “red” clothing. I believe W6 only learned that George was wearing red through observation AFTER the shooting when George was standing and flashlights were on the scene.
Yeppers, and he doesn’t want to admit that he definitely heard GZ questioning Trayvon, and so he could not have been the one yelling for help. But, he’s standing right there while the phone upstairs in the next building is picking it up. His testimony should be, at the least, that there were two voices, one deep one and the other a higher pitched one. I mean, what are the chances that his ears aren’t as good as the mic of a phone that’s further away?
well the other thing is Fogenhats was wearing a white shirt during the reeanctment
Trayvon was wearing white tennis shoes.
@YAHTC been thinking about color too. With the absence of light I don’t think any of them really saw red. Seeing color is dependent on the presence of light. Just like Serino said it was GZ yelling, I also think he may have hinted to the person on red being on the bottom. Same with the Austin’s testimony which he later refuted suggesting he was steered by LE.
Thanks for your response, Manberk. Now, I am going to use separate reply boxes to quote witnesses who described the lighting conditions.
Here is W3 (next door neighbor of John (W6)
W3: It was extremely dark out there. There were no lights in my back yard.
W1: I peeped out and I couldn’t really see back there because there wasn’t a lot of lights on back there.
W1: It was dark. I couldn’t… No. I couldn’t tell you if they were black. I couldn’t tell you if they were white. It was just so dark out there I just saw movement.
W12 (wife of W13)
de la Rionda: Okay. Could you describe in terms of what clothing they were wearing, the guy on top or
the guy on bottom?
W12: It was too dark.
Here is what W12 also says as to what she saw BEFORE the shot—
de la Rionda: Okay. So the shot was after you first saw somebody on top of another guy?
W12: Uh huh.
de la Rionda: Okay. Is that a yes?
W12: Yes.
de la Rionda: How would you describe their physique at all, the guy on top or the guy on bottom?
W12: I know, after seeing the TV of what’s happening, comparing their pictures, I think Zimmerman is
definitely on top because of his size.
de la Rionda: Okay. So, the guy on top, to you it appeared to be bigger.
W12: Yes.
de la Rionda: Is that correct?
W12: Yes. de la Rionda: And when you say bigger, what do you mean by that?
W12: Compared to Martin. de la Rionda: Okay. Like bigger, in terms of you’re describing, like width, like heavier…
W12: Yeah. Wider.
de la Rionda: …broader? Okay.
W12: Yes.
de la Rionda: And you’re saying that you saw Mr. Zimmerman on TV and also Mr. Martin’s pictures and you know now that one is bigger than the other?
W12: Yes.
Read now how W1 describes the lighting conditions immediately AFTER the shot—
W1: As soon as I heard the shot I went back and looked. And… Batchelor: What did you see?
W1: I saw the body!
Batchelor: Did you see anybody else?
W1: I can’t remember seeing anybody else. At this time the light was on so you could see.
Batchelor: A light was on?
W1: There was a light on in the back. From what I remember, a light was on at the time. It wasn’t on before.
thank you for laying all that out! now i have a WAY better of understanding who said what and when!!
Here is W3 (next door neighbor of John (W6)
W3: It was extremely dark out there. There were no lights in my back yard.
Manberk–Now I’d like to quote W3 and then discuss why she might have interpreted George’s jacket as a T-shirt.
W3–composite— And then this is just the guy with the white shirt and he was on top. And I couldn’t see the person underneath. the guy in the white tee-shirt on top, his back was to me. So, I peeked up underneath and I saw… I couldn’t really even see fighting, like I didn’t even see like anyone like wailing on anyone. I couldn’t tell who it was.
It was extremely dark out there. There were no lights in my back yard. I just saw a guy on top. And the guy on top had a white tee-shirt or just like all I saw was white. So, at… my initial… the only thing that I saw was that initial when I looked through the blinds and I saw the white shirt. ‘Cause everything was dark.
@YAHTC Yes, everyone says there was a absence of light, and they were all looking at the same thing as John.
“The most technically accurate definition of color is:
“Color is the visual effect that is caused by the spectral composition of the light emitted, transmitted, or reflected by objects.”
http://www.colormatters.com/color-and-vision/how-the-eye-sees-color
Seeing color is dependent on light. So I think the absence of light is why we hear so many conflicting stories. I question anyone who got it right! I think seeing white may have been seeing no color, or light color.
BTW, if GZ has himself lying on the pathway with his feet facing Johns house (correct?) wouldnt Johns view be of TMs back? And with his hood up how did he see the color of his face?
Perhaps the part of gz’s jacket that was red was seen by W3 as simply being LIGHTER and she could not distinguish the color of red. Also, she could not even see the black part.
If that is the case, when looking at gz’s sleeves, W3 would not have seen the upper part which was black or the lower part that was black.
W3 would only have seen the LIGHTER part near the elbow which WE know was red, but which W3 might only have seen as lighter and then interpreted it as white AND a SHORT SLEEVE because she could not have seen the rest of the sleeve (since it was black).
I now I wish to quote you again, Manberk–
Manberk says:
@YAHTC been thinking about color too. With the absence of light I don’t think any of them really saw red. Seeing color is dependent on the presence of light.
The GZ supporters thinks W6 is the bombshell to the defense. They don’t want to hear how he change his story several times.
If witness 6 has a brain, and a lawyer, they will both advise him to stick to his final story of he thinks he saw just pinning on the ground and he does not know who was screaming, and that he was just mistaken, if his recanted statements come up
and if there is some truth to the fact that Fogen’s cult was threatening people, he no longer has to be afraid and he can tell that during trial
and besides, forensics, his 911 call, the 911 scream tape, and numerous other witnesses refute his story, and considering he has already lied and contradicted himself, the people are inclined to believe he is in bed with the defendant
He also contradicts GZ. He says that the situation started on grass and ended on the concrete. GZ says that it started on the sidewalk and he shimmied onto the grass. The major issue here is that Trayvon’s body was several feet from the sidewalk, well onto the grass. Poor, poor John.
I think there was a lot of rolling going on the grass to the sidewalk and off the sidewalk during the struggle.
I dont think there was a lot of rolling. Fogen has the weight advantage and it would be difficult, especially untrained in combat, to roll a larger person off of you, while Trayvon would be a rag doll for Fogen, considering he is a former bouncer and is a developed adult and the weight advantage is vast
Jun, how do you speculated how they managed to move from position 1(on the grass next to W6 townhouse) to position 2 (on the sidewalk)?
I feel witness 6 is lying about something, or perhaps they were still standing or kneeling with each other, as it would be hard for Trayvon to roll over 200 pounds off of him, while the other party is fighting him. Or maybe they were standing and ended up on the ground grappling. Witness 18 can give a better idea. I believe they moved from the sidewalk onto the grass, and then Fogen tackled Trayvon, hence the phone dropping onto the grass, and Fogen was on top the whole time, hence Trayvon yelling Get Off.
Blushedbrown.
personaly I havent been able to hear the …I flucked him up good ..Or..He flucked me up pretty good comment,,
Others have though an they all seem to hear a similar type phrase independant of each other.
I have heard a second voice besides the screaming an begging for mercy an the terrified nooooo.
Just before we get to the last screan nooo before the fatal shot an silance.
I hear another voice speak/shout..An I hear F.ck..
Others have heard more than that though .
Again seeming to be independant of each other /
.Ive read claims that people can hear foggen interogateing Trayvon an talkink over the screams .Wich would conclusively prove it cant be the defendant begging for mercy wich we all knew anway.
@ Colin
BINGO
I’ve pretty much heard most of what you listed, but the “I don’t know em or them”.
I agree with you on your last comment. Not in the 3rd, 4th, or 5th statements to the police did GZ ever claim that he begged for his life. We all know that wasn’t him.
Not to worry, his chance to beg for his life is coming!
Yes, GZ didn’t realize how today’s technology would upset him by providing witness to what, under the circumstances, in previous years, would not have been recorded at all. The new radio phones have extremely sensitive pick up mics, they have to, to make them workable the radio phone needs a good strong and clear signal to send to the base. On top of which, most sounds are no longer sent by analog signal over the wires, but are converted to digital signals instead.
The thing that surprises me though is, the commotion still had to be pretty loud, so why can’t the other witnesses, especially John, and his wife, understand or even hear what’s being said? When we can hear it over the phone, why can’t they hear it when they’re standing just a few feet away?
Remember, this time when John is trying to fill his story with “I can’t this, too dark that”, is the very same time when the phone of the other witness is recording GZ questioning TM. John admits to hearing the screams, but he can’t hear GZ asking questions??? Hogwash! He’s simply lying to help GZ!
@Lonnie,
Could you post your link to your site I need to go a rootin.
Sure, here it is: http://tinyurl.com/d4x2y6b
Lots of new stuff since your last visit too.
I’ve been collectin. No, make that “I bee a collectin fool! lol
U B a collecting fool?
I need a 12 step group.
“Hi my names Patrick….and I haven’t bought a stamp in 3 days”
There must be over 200K of them in the room I’m sitting in now…..not counting what’s listed in my store.
and everyone says from the 12 Step Program
Welcome Patrick! (from the group)
and I say great job.. 3 days is good!
But Damnnnnn that’s alot of stamps!
Actually I lied….I bought 2 collections yesterday and there’s another I’m going after today
You are now kicked out of this group, you are going to the New Betty Ford Clinic for Massive Stamp Collection Detoxification Treatment center.
Funny thing is…..I don’t look like your stereotypical philatelist (stamp collector).
On first meeting a lot of people assume I’m a biker……Shaved head (half of it is gone naturally)…….long salt and pepper beard…..gold earring in the left ear….
So much for stereotypes huh?……..No different than being stereotyped as a “thug” when one has no knowledge of the person.
Really, when I first saw your picture, I thought, now that is a real man, a mountain man living on a mountain.
Yet I fit right in with the members of Bells Fort Free Trappers that you’ve seen pics of.
OK Blushed………changed my avatar….more fitting to your image of me?
My girl Becky in my hand….. .50 cal half stocked Hawken rifle with double set triggers….I cast my own round lead balls from old wheel weights…….I can still shoot 3 inch groups at 100 yds with this front stuffer.
I still see only Pat the “mountain man” toting “Becky” along for a beautiful walk in the snow. Becky has to be with you, that Black Bear can wake up early, you know, gotta have Becky.
Ya know these are the types of rifles used during the civil war….troops were expected to get 3 aimed shots off a minute….
Hell I’m lucky if I can get one shot off every 2 minutes…..
measure powder……pour powder down barrel….grease a wad….start wad down the barrel….then ram a round lead ball down the barrel……..next put a percussion cap on the nipple (yeah that’s what it’s called)…then I can fire one bullet before having to repeat the process
Does this make me a “gun enthusiast”?
No. You are not a “gun enthusiast”
You are a responsible gun owner.
Gun enthusiast? No. A gun enthusiast wants the Latest, fastest, biggest, deadliest, most macho and powerful gun on the market. You sound like a historian. I used to do archery. Almost as many steps.
BTW, I love the PIC!
Currently building a full stocked .50 cal. Kentucky rifle…….Her name is to be Debora…after a friend….2 years in progress…almost done.
I also have a brace (2) .36 cal. 1851 Colt Navy revolvers…..Mercy & Justice.
Ummm, Ok Pat naming the guns, Do you have to “name” the guns when you register them? Like a boat, or is that a man thing.
Actually most all the trappers, scouts and such named their rifles.
Daniel Boones rifle was named Tickler
I learn so much from this blog!
Davey Crockett’s favorite rifle was named Old Betsy
MountainManPat~COOL! Did a cinnamon bear take this picture?
Thanks for putting it up!
No….But I can change my avatar to the Cinnamon and her cub hanging out on the property…..She’s never been a problem.
blushedbrown~ and the Moderator of the group says “Now Blushed Brown, we don’t make judgements here. Patrick is here like all of us, to find inner peace and more storage space.”
OOoooo I so sorry Pat, and group, I have a coupon for one of those storage containers. (looking so innocent)
>^..^< It is HARD keeping up these days! (((( gasp, gasp))))))
My impression of Witness 6 is that he wanted to be important and find favor. John would take credit for getting GZ off, and GZ would not shoot and kill him. When he realized there was a serious investigation and GZ might be arrested, he then told the truth.
or what Fogenhats likes to call
“Uh, it was self defense, witness 6, I mean Jon, smashed my head into the concrete 27 times so I had to shoot him”
Xena, am I to understand that you feel W6 had some sort of fear of gz?
Yes, as I also believe the same for Jeremy and Jenna. They, along with John, saw and heard GZ. He was angry, cursing, and killed an unarmed teen who was begging for his life. After the evening of 2/26/12, witnesses knew that GZ had not been arrested because they were still being questioned. That in itself gives people the impression that GZ is a good liar able to manipulate and/or convince others. If he could get away with killing one person, why not more?
GZ slipped out of town in the middle of the night so not even his neighbors would know he had moved. It was not because he feared anything. It was an intimidation tactic on witnesses. In the event they learned he had moved, they didn’t know where, which also meant they didn’t know when he would show up. The video cameras at the gate weren’t operating either.
GZ was NW. He had gone around the gathered personal information about them. IIRC, it is only those witnesses who did not know GZ neither anything about NW who were the most forthcoming in what they heard and saw.
Very insightful, Xena……makes total sense!
Thank you. It’s human fear, partly based on what they know, and partly based on the unknown of what others will with a gun will do.
There are a few witnesses who expressed fear. Was it Jermeys girl who knew Fogen but refused to get near him after the shooting and they had to show her a picture instead? I think it was either the sisters, or Selma (person had an accent) who was so scared she didn’t want to give an interview and I think opined about him finding out who she was and where she lived? After all, he was set free and was wandering the streets rather than being in custody. I wonder who else didn’t come completely clean out of fear.
Weren’t there reports from residents PRIOR to the murder that they were concerned about fogen walking the neighborhood armed?
@Manberk.
Absolutely. Consider also that some witnesses may have felt that GZ had favor with the SPD so not only could they anticipate retribution from GZ, but they could be harassed by the SPD. For example, not being able to pull out of their driveway without being ticketed for speeding. When an investigator tells you what you saw and heard, it does convey that if you disagree, you get on their radar.
That’s why it was very important for GZ’s crime to be made nationally known and people came together to know they were not alone. The SPD may have been able to silence or intimidate several witnesses before the entire world began watching this case.
He still didn’t tell the truth, Xena. First, how do two man-sized humans lie facing each other with one on top and move several feet onto the concrete with the same person on top the entire time. In addition, his account does not place Trayvon where his body was ultimately found, several feet back onto the grass. This is a case of the lies-require-additional-lies syndrome. Just plain sad.
That is a lot of movement for someone to stay in mount that long, especially someone who weighed less than the other party by over 50 pounds
Of course John didn’t tell the truth because he only saw and heard them for several seconds. Trayvon’s phone disconnected from DeeDee’s call at 7:16. His phone records do not provide for seconds. Trayvon was shot at 7:16:56. Even if we go by the dot and say that GZ confronted Trayvon at exactly 7:16, the entire altercation happened in 56 seconds.
Think about hearing something, getting up, looking, then leaving to get your phone. That doesn’t leave much time to stay still and observe to see as much as John says that he saw.
If I was in John’s position, I would play my cards smart. I know morally I would never support the defendant because he took a kid’s life, and I am not down with that, as the death was not justified. However, looking at the turn of events, I may play along and then contact higher ups myself to protect myself for the time being. I would def string the defendant along until it was the right time to strike.
New Post Up:
Hating the Fogen Is Self-Destructive
I think that for sure he lied. I believe it wasn’t his intention, I think he talked to X and that influenced what he really saw. I believe Serino is going to be nail in the defendants coffin, that man is holding a card close to his pocket and he’s going to play it when the time is right. Also there are eye witnesses that have not been released and I can’t but wonder why.
Yep, they’ve got GPS, they have the E911 installed, that gives their 911 call center GPS locators for incoming cell calls. I guess that’s why the NEN call center, which is located in the same building, if not the same floor as the 911 call center, locates GZ nearest to the Long Oaks Way intersection than to the RVC intersection, further to the north.
Knowing that GZ lies, it’s probably just another lie to confuse us, that he parked near the cut through on TTL. He was probably parked further south near Long Oaks Way, and watching up TTL to see TM walking out of the mail shed. To further cement the idea that he was park at the north end of TTL near the cut through, he says “he’s coming towards me”, when, in fact he’s no where near there.
When TM disappears behind the buildings, and GZ can no longer see him from his perch on TTL, he exclaims “He ran!” and jumps out of his car to intercept TM, before he can reach the back gate.
He gets back to the dog path and doesn’t see TM, so that’s where he says he lost him. Meanwhile TM doesn’t see GZ lurking in the cut through near his house, so he assumes he’s lost GZ and starts walking again. He’s getting near his house, when GZ spots him, ends his NEN call and goes after TM.
TM sees GZ approaching behind him, and turns away from the house, because he doesn’t want to involve Chad, and expose him to this danger. So TM tries to escape by running south, but he’s drained by all the excitement and stress and GZ catches him.
GZ is on drugs, so he forgets that he needs to chase TM back to the T. So, when he grabs TM, TM asks him why he’s being followed. GZ goes ballistic and applies a painful hold. Witnesses begin to appear, and GZ panics, knowing that the 911 emergency calls are going to upgrade the response of the unit already en route.
At the station GZ gives the story he’s practiced, since his drug addled brain can’t figure out how to reconcile it with the fact that they never got far enough north to use the T the story depends on. GZ doesn’t realize how far away to the south he actually was, until Serino and Singleton have him standing there, asking him questions about where the bushes were.
You can easily see GZ’s surprise and astonishment, as he keeps looking down at where the body was actually found. He tries to introduce the “tigers paw swat system” of stumbling, but as he works his way south he stops, realizing that each step is taking him closer to prison for life. (See LLMPapa’s video’s for further instructions).
In reading this……
I CANNOT imagine the terror Trayvon felt in his last moments of life.
JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON
Yes, that occurs to me several times each night!
Noting that on the NeN call, GZ specifically locates himself near the clubhouse when the call starts, but we are led to believe that he’s actually viewing TM in the mail shed and simply fabricating the “how” of his arrival there. But, then I read the header on the NeN call, and the operator has entered NOT 1111 RVC, and not TTL w/ nearest intersection RVC. But, TTL w/ nearest intersection Long Oaks Way.
He didn’t get that info from GZ, but it had to come from somewhere, else he would not have entered it. There does not appear to be any protocol that requires him to enter questionable/doubtful info. So, he must have picked it up from his display. Meaning GZ must have been substantially south on TTL when he made his NeN call.
I’m going to guess that, after spotting TM in the mail shed, he maneuvered to shine his head lights on him, because his plan was to provoke a panicked and/or fearful reaction. GZ knows the cctv blind spots well, since he pays close attention to their status. So close is his attention to the state of the cctv’s that he knows the name, address and has the phone number of the POC as well as the company he works for. Way too much info for a casual observer, even with NW as a cover.
GZ knew that he could park south on TTL, without being captured by the cctv’s that were working, because he knew where the blind spots were. So, I’m going to speculate, that it’s from this position that he observes falsely “he’s coming towards me” as he watches TM exit the mail shed and begin walking towards the cut through.
Face it, if someone is spooking you in a truck, you’re not going to walk towards them if you can avoid them. Too great a chance they can simply spring from the truck and grab you, attack with a weapon, restrain, detain and/or capture you, or anything else.
Trayvon won’t walk towards GZ’s truck and GZ knows it! So, by parking south on TTL, he cuts TM off from his shortest route home.
He actually forces TM to use the northern cut through and come south via the dog walk way area. GZ misdirects by acting as if he’s parked at the cut through, and pretends that TM has walked past him, brazenly “checking him out”, as in “no fear”. Then he later embellishes with TM coming back and circling his truck, to cement the idea that TM was unafraid and aggressive.
When TM walks out of sight, GZ then states that “He’s running”. Another false construct that provides an impression that, when he jumps out of his truck, he’s following TM, by heading towards the T, when, in fact he’s actually running further south to the last cut through, from where he can easily catch TM as he attempts to pass by. He’s in that cut through when he sees TM approaching, and he ends his NeN call.
As TM is on the eastern side of the dog walk, to get to the back door he’s left ajar, to get back into the house. He suddenly notices GZ is behind him again. Where “behind” is actually west of him, emerging from the cut through. TM realizes he can’t make it into the house without exposing Chad to this trouble, so he turns away and GZ herds him back north.
Because GZ has planned that his narrative will be, that he walked all the way across to RVC, then was attacked as he walked back to his truck, he intends to herd TM all the way north to the T. But TM is too tired to run anymore and stops, turns and pleads “Why are you following me for?” GZ is now very angry, his plan has been set back, because he needs to herd TM to the T. So he issues another challenge, in hopes he can scare TM into running again. But that doesn’t work, so he starts pushing and shoving TM north.
As he does, he causes TM great pain with a hold of some kind, and TM begins screaming, they fall to the ground and witnesses begin to appear.
Being seen so far south, there’s no use trying to make it back to the T, so GZ decides to conclude things right there, where he believes he’s less visible to any witnesses who are coming out and going back inside.
So that’s my new working theory in general. Have at it gang!
This is all very interesting. If they used GPS tracking and they put GZ elsewhere from where he suggested, is that potential evidence? Admissible?
Sure it is, software doesn’t lie to aid anyone’s point of view, it’s like a thermometer, if the thermometer says your body temp is 98 degrees than that’s what get’s entered into the official record.
If the GPS says that the incoming call was at lat () long() then that’s what the official record will show. The defense can look for flaws in the software systems, but unless they find some, GZ would be toast!
Of course, we need to know how the software was set up to return or calculate the nearest intersection.
I don’t know if this applies to cell phones….
I have a hand help GPS I use when out hiking, splorin’ as I call it…
Anyway….If I’m not in an open area it will give me false readings…..hence pretty much useless in the forest.
A compass is carried as backup.
Yes, but this is an off shoot of the E911 system that police nation wide were waiting for. Because they could not locate callers who used cellphones to report situations, who did not know or could not give their locations. E911 gives them that capability now. So, if you’re in trouble, having a heart attack out on the road, you hit your emergency auto dial 911 and black out, they can find you.
Good to know Lonnie…….The other thread about anger?……a year ago August I was in the cardiac ward as my BP had gone over 200…..all the result of anger…..
Oh, the E911 system uses military grade gps, it references two satellites and triangulates a position that’s accurate to within a foot or two.
Mine….even at best is +/- 25 ft. of my actual position.
Yes, that’s because civilian systems were not allowed to use the military gps system. I think that may have been changed or civilian systems are upgrading. But, the military uses a software correction system that takes the location from two satellites and triangulates an more accurate location. Because you don’t want ordinance going off further from your target than you have to.
@Lonnie Starr.
Let’s throw something out and see where it goes. In his NEN call after GZ confirmed that the address Sean had is the address for the clubhouse, Sean asked if Trayvon was at the clubhouse “now.” Listen closely to GZ’s answer:
“Yeah. He’s coming towards me now.”
GZ does not say that he is parked at the clubhouse. Coming towards him could be easily construed that GZ was parked in a place where Trayvon was walking on his way home. Also, since Trayvon was at the clubhouse, he could not have been looking into houses.
Yeppers!!! That’s called “demonizing”! Assigning bad behavior to him, that he couldn’t possibly commit.
Now, let’s just say that TM has spotted GZ following and let’s say that instead of GZ parking his truck near that cut through to the T, he, instead parks a bit further south on TTL facing north. So that he’s closer to LOW to the south, than RVC to his northwest.
He knows that TM is now frightened of him, so by parking here, he ensures that TM will be forced to use the cut through to avoid coming close to his truck. Now, when GZ exits his truck, he’s already closer to the back gate than TM is at the start. When TM disappears behind the northern most building, heading to the T, GZ then says “he’s running”, because he want’s NeN to hear him exit his car and run. Later he will say that he was running towards the T, over to RVC, when, in fact he was really running up TTL to the last cut through, to be in position to cut TM off.
Meanwhile, TM is trying to catch his breath from his all out run that winded him. So he’s stopped somewhere near the buildings on the west side of the dog path, so GZ peeks out he doesn’t see him. TM, doesn’t see GZ either, so when he starts walking again, he crosses over to the east side of the dog path and is making his way to his house, when suddenly he hears the grass rustle behind him, as GZ emerges from the cut through to TM’s west. TM tells DD, he’s behind me again. Then, not wanting to show GZ where he lives, he turns away from the house and heads north.
I think that scenario would work better, and it would mean that GZ was lying and misdirecting with his story about his trip to RVC.
@Lonnie. I try to picture your words. The directions confuse me at times, but I cannot disagree.
IMO, Trayvon had another reason for walking away. First, I think that GZ cut-off Trayvon’s path to his house. Secondly, since Trayvon is Aquarius, he more than likely gave GZ the benefit of the doubt that MAYBE he wasn’t really following him. Thus, realizing that GZ is not going into a townhouse, Trayvon would ask GZ “What are you following me for.”
Being that close to your home and not being able to make it there to safety, I don’t even want to imagine what that child went through. What really burns me is that X is trying to steal this young mans voice as his own. There is a special place in hell for him, as my sister like to say ” he’s going to Hell with gasoline draws on” for what he did to that child. I believe the way he handled things after he shot Trayvon is what hurts the most, if he had just been honest afterwards we could all respect that this fool made a grave mistake. Honesty probably never crossed his mind though, that night he started out lying and finished the same way.
Under the HOA’s Newsletter “Crime Prevention Tips,” they forgot a really important one:
DO NOT KILL ANYBODY.
the easiest crime prevention tip would have been to kick Fogen out for not paying rent and fire him for the NW job he appointed himself as captain
Totally agree Jun…
Another point I just realized after reading the police reports…….Some have said they hear fogen cocking his pistol when he leaves his vehicle…After reading the police report this can’t be…..The Kel Tec 9PF is listed as a 6+1, meaning the magazine can hold 6 rounds and another in the chamber……and that’s just what the police recovered, 6 live rounds and one spent cartridge….meaning this idiot was walking around with a pistol in his waist with a round in the chamber….and NO SAFETY…..Good way to shoot your own balls off trying a quick draw.
From what I’ve read about that pistol, it’s safety feature is an extra long trigger pull with a 5 lb resistance.
As far as I know, it does seem that GZ would have had his hands full, and therefore could not be wracking his gun. But, that doesn’t preclude that there might have been someone else with him doing things. There certainly seem to be sounds that could be whispers and remarks from GZ that could pass for replies.
When he’s out of the truck, on the NeN call that wracking sound is heard again, but this time it’s a bit further away and to close to the knocking sounds to be the same person doing both.
Of course, it’s only GZ’s narrative that sets these actions near RVC east, and place him alone in the area. In truth, he could really be just about anywhere. He never even had to come through the cut through, or even been close to the T. No one observed him there because there was no sound to alert any witnesses to look.
If him, Osterman and John were out there moving around, we’d have no way to prove that they were. They would have successfully escaped detection. Not a difficult thing to have done, given the circumstances. But, if Trayvon had a clue that there was more than one person after him, even if he doesn’t know it, they have no way to be sure that he doesn’t know it. So, they’d want him killed too.
Especially Osterman, since it could cost him his good paying job, to be associated with this hunt.
But, for sure, there are just too many unexplained sounds in these brief moments, for GZ to have been alone. The kel tek 9 has a distinctive sound when wracked and you hear it more than once. Of course, there’s no video so you can’t say for sure what it is.
@ moutainmanpat u made me laugh this morning, Stupid, that’s all I can say. I will like to know what was his issue that he needed a gun without a safety on it plus have one bullet in the chamber. I can only come to the conclusion that he was itching for trouble, he probably had been thinking of what he would do to the person that crossed his path wrongly or tried to commit a crime on his watch. That’s why he killed this kid he had been dreaming, imagining and hoping for something to happen where he could use this gun other than target practice. X wanted to be a cop this man was seeking out the “action” he wanted to be knee deep in it.
And that my friend is what makes his actions so sick.
It wasn’t about doing what’s right…..defending or protecting others.
It was done for his own glory and self esteem.
Any self esteem he has left will be removed once he gets to the bighouse.
@MMP
Just heard back regarding “newsletters” . Contact says that only the usual stuff is being printed in the newsletters. Taking about the case and printing about the case is a big NO NO, because of the pending lawsuit against the HOA that everyone knows about. There is one more thing, but I have to wait till this afternoon, to post about it.
Will keep you and everyone updated.
Uh oh, can you say “product liability”? We knew you could! In a world where hammers need labels advising: “WARNING: Hitting oneself in the head with this product can cause serious injury or death!”
fogen should have had that tattooed on his forehead
“Meeting me can cause injury or death”
That’ll all change once he gets to the bighouse……..then he’ll find out how tough he really isn’t.
What about ‘the gun is on the ground’ W6 heard GZ say?
Didn’t GZ in the reenactment video say the gun was on him?
Yes, John lied. The fact John was a problem in this whole incident was glaring to me from the beginning. John and “doesn’t add up” are pretty much synonymous. I told people from the beginning on different forums John lied. I think he’s part of the mystery along with Osterman, Taffee, She Lied, etc.
Testing.
Just checking to see if the FLLB web interface supports BBcode quote tags.
Rats. It doesn’;t.
Whonoze~ apparently it supports Greek because I have NO idea what you just wrote.
Is it possible that the witness saw an opportunity for fame? It seemed safe to witness a citizen doing a good deed so why not embellish what was seen in order to be part of the story? It looked like GZ was the hero so it was safe to co-sign for him.
Diane~ maybe what you say is true. But that still means Jon is a liar. In a case where a DEATH has occurred, one really should stick to the truth. I find that witness to be particularly loathsome.
I agree. He should “stick to the facts” as he knows them with no embellishment.