Welcome to the Open Thread for today.
We have two articles today:
False Confessions II: The Tucson Buddhist Temple Massacre,* and
Featuring: LLMPapa Roasts the Circle Thang and a Strange Unicorn Runs Away
Please use this Open Thread, if you want to discuss or comment regarding a different topic.
* I have been advised that the Buddhist Temple is located in the West Valley in Maricopa County near Phoenix, not Tucson. The Tucson Four were so named because they are from Tucson.
I also thought the temple was near Phoenix and yesterday advised that Part II on False Confessions would be about the Phoenix Temple massacre. However, when I started researching the case early this morning, I could not find any information on the Phoenix Temple murders. Then started searching for Dr. Richard Ofshe, who is one of the most respected experts on false confessions and came up with some hits for Tucson Temple murders. Turned out to be the case, so I went with it, figuring I must have been mistaken.
Weird!
NEW DISCOVERY: http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/0113/10th_discovery_documents.pdf
straight from Ms Natalie Jackson!!
OMG i am first AND with real news!!!LOLOL Yippie!!
Shannon- high 5!
more like a- too slow!
Thanks for the link.
It’s good that Serino saved all his drafts rather than save over each one as he changed his mind – for whatever reason he changed his mind about the capias. Much more effective for judge / jury to see these rather than hear about the process.
I don’t believe his thought process is relevant to determining the defendant’s guilt or innocence.
I don’t think it will come up during the trial.
that’s a really good point!
and puts to bed the irrational rantings of omar
“Ah ha, if Sanford didn’t arrest, we must forget!”
Ah, thanks for the nudge professor. But as Shannon says, it at least puts the rumor to rest that SPD didn’t want to do anything, even if Fogen supporters like to say Serino was pressured by other cops/media/public.
I have only read the first draft so far. Has anyone found any any new information?
At first glance there are 4 drafts of Serino’s report on the morning of march 13th returned by mail by O’Connor. The first 2 request for murder 2. The next 2 add more explicit reasons about GZ’z possible guilt and request for manslaughter. It appears that O’Connor was the one that did not want to charge GZ, and Serino tried with more arguments and a lesser charge to change O’Connors mind.
The last document is an email from O’Connor to his staff on the 15th stating that he had some second thoughts 2 days earlier, but after he had a conversation with Bill Lee, he was confident he made the right decission.
He was confident he made the right decision because it was Bill Lee who was telling him, from the very beginning, that he was NOT to charge Fogen with ANY crime at all, PERIOD. That neighborhood NEEDED someone controlling the “out of town thugs” coming in and also giving a sign to the people living there that HE was on patrol and they better watch out. I am not 99.99 percent sure Bill Lee said words to that effect; I am 99.9999999 percent sure of it. I have no proof.
You can see in the manipulation of “facts” written in those drafts that Serino was trying to wheedle a criminal charge out of a situation he understood VERY WELL. Everything he knows is false is stated in the passive voice. Everything he knows to be true is laid between the lines. He’s trying to make it possible to charge Fogen with something and he understands that the structure in place will prevent it if at all possible.
This whole case is a magnificent classic, about manipulation, about corruption, about the expression of unlawful and improper motivations, OMG OMG it is a treasure house. And the notion that there was a conversation that gave one corrupt official comfort in knowing he “did the right thing” was nothing more nor less than a sign that a conversation had taken place where both of them pledged loyalty to the other if the shit hit the fan.
What is a EMT job when they arrived on scene. Do they check the body for injuries.
EMT’s do as they are directed by the Paramedic. Obviously, Paramedic Michael Brandy (lead supervisor on scene) was unconcerned as to the nature of gz’s *injuries*. Firefighter Lt Stacy Livingston was delegated the task of “cleaning up” gz while he sat in the rear seat of officer Timothy Smith’s cruiser. Firefighter/Engineer/EMT Basic O’Rourke “assisted”. In EMS parlance that means O’Rourke trotted over to unit E38 for a 1st aid kit and carried it over to Smith’s cruiser for FF Lt Livingston’s use in attending to gz.
I believe there was a second ambulance dispatched to the scene for GZ, but it was canceled.
Sounds like search engines are skewing the locations of temple and the innocent guys, Professor.
Yeah, it’s really weird.
What’s up with that?
I suppose Tucson temple murders are key words / phrase.
Follow.
For the Open Thread (and discussion):
“PROFILING FOR PROFIT”
__________________
A Class Report on MOTIVE by PiranhaMom
Yes, I’m among the very few who don’t think that Zimmerman set out on that rainy night in the interest of killing a Black youth out of racist hate, or perversion, or for “the thrill of the kill.” Or to make himself respected, glorified, or an ally of Sanford P.D.
I believe he set out that night because he was sub-employed, in debt, with no possibility of becoming a cop, and no career in sight.
Frankly, I think he set out FOR PROFIT.
He hoped this would lead to a future as “an executive.”
Sadly – especially for young Trayvon Martin – Zimmerman turned out to be not an executive, but an executioner.
I believe he had a scheme – and after a year’s finagling, he had all his connections lined up.
If there was a conspiracy among Zimmerman, Taaffe, and Osterman – who may, or may not still have a job as Air Marshal – I believe it was to set up a business venture – a “professional patrol” company for condo HOAs, with Retreat at Twin Lakes as the first, prototype client. They probably had no clue that security work pays little, and did not care, because they could be “The Three Honchos” after a few short months, then hire out the patrol work to others. Preferably, cops – with SPD and Chief Bill Lee’s blessiing.
“Today, Twin Lakes – tomorrow, the world” would be their slogan.
Here we have Zimmerman, underemployed (and with an unemployed wife); Taaffe at loose ends and facing foreclosure, and Osterman working less than full time as an Air Marshal due to flight rules. They could wing it at Retreat at Twin Lakes as the workforce until they lined up a few more condo HOAs, then they’d be rolling in the big bucks. Los Honchos would become “the executives.”
Cops in Sanford are on the low end of the pay scale nationally and many would be glad to get some easy overtime, even if it was less that “cop rate”. How much do Sanford officers make? $35,720 per year, to a max of $49,445 plus an added bonus for higher education that tops out at $3,060 for BOTH City and State educational credits – even with a Master’s Degree.
That’s not a lot of bucks for putting your life on the line and struggling with the family disruption of shift work. If you could get $20+ an hour for ten or twelve hours a week cruising condos, it could help meet your credit card payments (just ask George Zimmerman).
Sanford PD has a comprehensive policy covering “Off-Duty” and “Extra-Duty” employment, and even has a special Coordinator for it. It appears to be competitive among the officers. Both “Off/Extra-Duty” work cannot exceed 44 hours per month; “Extra-Duty” employment carries the responsibility of use of full police powers and can utilize departmental equipment.
An example of “Off-Duty” would be retail not related to police work (say, yacht sales) while “Extra-Duty” is literally having one of SPD’s uniformed finest as your own – say, crowd & traffic control during motion picture filming “on location.” Employers of “Off-Duty” personnel are only responsible for Workers Compensation (plus wages) and not the wide array of employee benefits provided by the city. You could have a patrol officer work security – but not in Sanford PD uniform – as Off-Duty employment, at a much lower cost. Note: neither “Off-Duty” or “Extra-Duty” employment can be investigative.
(Sanford PD graciously provided a copy of Policy P/P 01-46 within hours of my Public Records Act request. The policy was amended April 2 of last year, but has been in force for seven years.)
“Build a better mousetrap” has always been the way to success in America – “find a need and fill it.” During the previous year Zimmerman appears to have laid the groundwork by not “finding” a need, but by creating one: he developed a “high crime profile” for his own condo development by calling in multiple complaints about Black suspects (most so wily, they slipped away).
The fact that the “suspects” kept on being Black was not, in my opinion, because Zimmerman was a rabid racist, but because he could figure that was his best “sell” in a community like Sanford, FL and with those in local law enforcement that served it.
Bigotry, yes, but bigotry out of convenience, bigotry for bucks.
That is vile.
It’s not that Zimmerman hated Blacks, it’s that Zimmerman could simply consider them the most “credible” threat he could gin up to raise the locals’ fears: blame it on the Black “criminal element.”
This is known as “Profiling for Profit.” Profiling Blacks, that is.
During the same year, Zimmerman was busy sucking up to the Chief Bill Lee and other Sanford PD brass – and individual officers. Why were so many cops who were immediately on the scene after Trayvon Martin’s murder already acquainted with Zimmerman? Had any of those patrol officers been approached yet by Zimmerman to become part of some future money-making venture?
Also during the year, Zimmerman was establishing his bona fides with both Sanford PD and his own HOA. Got himself appointed as Neighborhood Watch coordinator – but never coordinated ANYthing.
Nosed around the neighborhood, clipboard in hand, establishing himself as the local protector of his neighbors – and adding an edge to their fear.
Then there was the Home Owners Association Board – who eventually (December 10, 2012) got an agreement approved by the City Commission for Sanford PD to patrol its three private streets as if they were city streets (i.e. at no charge), and enforce its 15 MPH speed limits.
Now, this service, by State law, was ALWAYS available to the HOA (Sanford PD provides it to 14 other HOA developments) but the HOA Management company only requested it August 20, 2012 (I have Kent Taylor’s e-mail to Sergeant Smith). The tragedy in all this is that the HOA did not request police patrolling of its roads BEFORE “the renegade patroller” profiled Trayvon Martin – and ended up killing him.
Up to February 26 last year, Zimmerman was doing his best to get in thick with the HOA Board as its protector … I believe,for his future business interests.
How? Why, be the local crime prevention hero. “The Captain.”
But, of course, he’d need a trophy.
Preferably young, on foot, alone, and easy to intimidate.
And very, very preferably, Black. That would be the catalyst to getting the contract.
The kid wouldn’t even have to be DOing anything criminal – it would be Righteous George’s word against “the kid’s,” and let’s face it, all YBM’s have criminal records, right?
The plan was a slam dunk – all he needed was a “suspect” to apprehend, and detain until the cops got there.
All he needed was to be tipped off when there was a “suspect” in the neighborhood.
And then one dark and rainy night, did friend Osterman stop at the ATM to pick up cash – cash he intended to drop off at Zimmerman’s house to help his young friend through a rough patch?
And was that the same dark and rainy night that young Trayvon Martin had hiked all the way to the 7-11 and back, just to pick up an Arizona iced tea and a bag of Skittles, and was trudging home, tired but happy, talking on the phone to his girlfriend?
Did Osterman spot Trayvon Martin on the pathway of The Retreat — and tip off Zimmerman?
Was George Zimmerman packing heat?
We know this answer: “Yes.”
Did Zimmerman trail Martin in his vehicle and call 311? We know this answer: “Yes.”
Did Zimmerman exit the vehicle in pursuit?
We know this answer in Zimmerman’s own words, “Yeah.”
Did Zimmerman engage in a verbal and physical confrontation with Trayvon Martin?
Physical evidence and witnesses tell us: “Yes.”
Did Zimmerman shoot Trayvon Martin?
His first words to the cops: “I shot him.”
Re-enacted, recorded, videotaped and signed under penalty of perjury by George Zimmerman.
Was Zimmerman whisked away to private “protective custody” by buddy Mark Osterman as soon as the cops turned him loose after the killing, and was Osterman Zimmerman’s “shadow” throughout the re-enactment? We know the answer: “Yes.”
Did Zimmerman and his family set up a website FOR PROFIT even before he was charged with Murder Two, and did he PROFIT by over $230,000 after this killing?
Do these folks have PROFIT on their minds? $230,000 says, “Yes!”
Have you ANY doubt that THE PROFIT MOTIVE ended up setting this whole, horrible killing in motion – that dark and rainy night of February 26, 2012?
What could go wrong with this scheme?
And if it did? Hey, wouldn’t George Zimmerman’s word count for more than some Black kid’s – especially if that Black kid was dead?
Who you gonna believe – the guy who can tell his side of the story (in this case, ALL sides of his story, all the “variations on a theme by Zimmerman”) — or the kid who can’t tell you ANY side at all?
Remember, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Ah, yes.
On the road … to PROFIT.
[This comment is now posted as an article]
Pirhana Mom- you spin a scary tale. Scary because it sounds oh so plausible. That story would also accommodate the prepared bloody head detail. (((Shudder))))
Good post!!
Excellent post, PiranhaMom.
Will anyone be watching Hannity tonight? Our cable is down due to 18 wheeler hitting a transformer, I believe I heard. So disappointed.
I just put Fox on…I will try to watch, but I usually can’t get through the first few minutes of hearing him repeat the same BS.
His spot was not aired for some reason.
Gag me. I sat an watched the entire thing to the bitter end. Almost as bad as a visit to the Treestump.
I believe that Ben Shapiro was the actual guest on the Hannity show, promoting a new book of his about how Liberals bully Conservatives. Shapiro pre-recorded an interview with Junior, but then never used it on Hannity.
So now junior is an expert on being bullied?!?!?
I don’t have cable
For those who can get online, it appears the show might be livestreamed at http://hannitylive.foxnews.com/client/#
Not sure.
Sorry, maybe not. It looked like it this afternoon, but may just be archived stuff or peeks at currently aired program.
>^..^<
Also from Serino’s reports-
Zimmerman displayed injuries to his facial area and to the back of his head, which were treated by Sanford Fire Rescue at the time he was detained by Officer T. Smith. He also stated he was going to
follow up with his primary care physician to have his injuries further evaluated. No visible physical injuries were noted or documented to his body/torso area, nor were any defense wounds noted on his
arms or hands. Zimmerman had been treated on scene while in Officer Smith’s custody, and he declined transport for emergency medical treatment. While in my presence, on 2/27/2012, Zimmerman
complained of a headache, and stated he intended to follow up with his primary care physician
No visible physical injuries were noted or documented to his body/torso area, nor were any defense wounds noted on his
arms or hands.
That is because no means to retreat were taken or he would have had defensive wounds on his hands or arms from trying to get away or stop Trayvon from supposedly holding him down beating him.
C’mon, No jury will believe that for 40 + seconds Trayvon was on top, punching him in the face & smashing his head in the ground and he couldn’t cover his face, hit back or push at Trayvon to try and get away.
No, they will see that no “beating” took place.
Obviously “no defensive wounds” on Fogen means he was not defending himself. He’d have us believe that he was too nice to even shield himself from a beat-down but then he got kinda fed up when he faced the idea of wearing diapers for the rest of his life so then he killed. [smirk, shrug]
The interesting part of Serino’s report for me was “The screams for help were determined to be the voice of George Zimmerman.” Passive Voice? They “were determined” to be? By whom were they determined? Oh Feds, Oh Feds, do you hear this voice yelling “help help”? Will you determine it to be the entire rational population of this country?
Taking a beating and just lying there like a wilted palm doing nothing? Yeah, right…….
New Post Up:
Featuring: Piranha Mom’s New Theory About Defendant’s Motive for Killing Trayvon
There seems to be some hate groups targeting Asian people, seeing the Buddhist Temple case and the case where the gunman killed a bunch of Sikhs this year.
The Phoenix Buddhist Temple murders took place in 1991, long before 9/11, and the motive was robbery.
I think the Sikh Temple murders were based on a mistaken belief that Sikhs are Arab Muslims because they wear turbans.
Even though almost all of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis and members of the Muslim fundamentalist Wahabi sect, the right wing hate machine in this country believe that the only good Arab is a dead Arab and the only people who wear turbans are Arabs.
They are intellectually challenged, to put it mildly.
I dont get how they are so blind but I guess hate does that to people
They actually made a CSI episode based on this case, considering you mention the greed motivation and the buddhist temple
How do you feel about the Vincent Chin incident?
It was straight up manslaughter and murder and the guys got let away with that mess and the murdered the guy under the assumption that all Asian people are stealing their jobs
At first glance there are 4 drafts of Serino’s report on the morning of march 13th returned by mail by O’Connor. The first 2 request for murder 2. The next 2 add more explicit reasons about GZ’z possible guilt and request for manslaughter. It appears that O’Connor was the one that did not want to charge GZ, and Serino tried with more arguments and a lesser charge to change O’Connors mind.
The last document is an email from O’Connor to his staff on the 15th stating that he had some second thoughts 2 days earlier, but after he had a conversation with Bill Lee, he was confident he made the right decission.
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