Judge Debra Nelson set the trial date for June 10, 2013. The attorneys estimate the trial will last three weeks with jury selection taking more time the trial itself.
He is charged with murder second degree.
Defense counsel have been busy this week deposing prosecution witnesses. They will be back in court on Friday for a hearing regarding discovery issues, including the defense request for subpoenas for Trayvon Martin’s middle and high school records. The prosecution is objecting to the subpoenas on the grounds that the information sought is confidential and would be irrelevant and inadmissible at trial.
No trial date has been set yet for Shellie Zimmerman. She is charged with perjury allegedly committed at his bond hearing.
follow
following
I’m here, following as well.
following
YIKES!!
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2946073/posts
Gun rights advocates Tuesday told a task force reviewing Florida’s “stand your ground” law that the statute needs to be revised to take the burden off defendants trying to prove their use of force was justified.
=============================================
OK, this is the natural outgrowth of the Wolfinger/Lee position that the police could not PROVE that the claim of self-defense was not valid. NOW if you kill somebody without witnesses (at least if you do so with a gun), this revision of the law would make it necessary to presume that you killed in self-defense so long as you SAID SO, and therefore, the burden would not be on the prosecution to prove your motive and your act of murder, but it would also be on the prosecution to prove that your own excuse, uncorroborated as it was, was INCORRECT. You don’t have to prove anything. Just kill and then say the magic words: “I had to do it; it was self-defense.” The prosecution would have to PROVE (but it has no witnesses since the complaining witness cannot testify by reason of deadness) that your use of deadly force to make someone dead was UNjustified. Cute.
Let a lot of battered wives hear about THIS.
Where do they come from, and why are they breathing our air ?
The current SYG law is an unmitigated disgrace as it is now. Now it really is “…shoot first and to hell with any questions”
Lets call it the “I was mad at them, now they’re dead, so what Law”
Unbelievable. More gun deaths and they want to make it easier to kill more people.
How do these people wield so much power over the law-makers. Why do they continue to push toward a free-for-all. I am just not getting it.
The SYG laws are corporate- and billionaire-inspired. They are not for the “little people” to use. They are for the hired thugs, uh, security guards, to use in protecting the property of the corporations and the billionaires.. SYG means no liability for the employers of the thugs and to make it easier to hire thugs who will shoot to kill. We may yet see a deep depression that will bring out serious frustration and mob action.
That would be unconstitutional for the dead person but they must be Arkansas Republicans…
Are they trying to turn America into a war zone?
My grandfather was sent over here to the US by his family in Russia because they were worried that he was getting into Bolshevik revolutionary action and they feared for his life. He landed here and got into unionizing. THEN you could get shot by a corporate thug for anything at all if you were suspected of unionizing.
We are going back to THAT but by a different path. My grandfather would have recognized this stuff. Of course, he died 45 years ago so he thought that particular struggle was over and didn’t realize it could come out of its grave like the monster in a horror film.
There’s no way this flies. A serial killer could go around shooting people and then staging a couple scratches and claim self defense and be allowed to walk. Too dangerous and effects the security of the state.
If I am in court and facing the death penalty, could I shoot the jury because I felt I would suffer great bodily harm or death. Until I am found guilty, I am presumed innocent. Or maybe while I am out on bail before the trial I should shoot up the witness list. Have I lost my constitutional rights once I am charged with a crime. Tongue in cheek.
jun and grahase, You’re thinking it’s all about us, the “little people. It doesn’t. Again, the SYG law is not for the “little people” like serial killers or battered wives or you or me. It’s for the security forces that protect the property of the super-wealthy. At some point there will be case law that supports the SYG law so it can be used in this way.
What this amounts to is legalizing execution.
The words “free republic” were used by a group of Posse Comitus some years ago. The SYG law is devised to rebel and overturn the government. The theories and agenda of Posse Comitus are spread today by “sovereign citizens” who still hold that only the County Sheriff has law enforcement authority.
Sovereign citizens are so rebellious against the government that several years ago, information was printed in publications for judges so they would know how to recognize and deal with them.
For years, I’ve tooted the horn, blown the trumpet, and tried informing others about this group of anti-government people. Their roots are in White Supremacists groups and their government rebellion is based on the 13th amendment and goes from there. Now, they don’t care who picks up their agenda and pursues it. Actor Wesley Snipes is currently serving time for picking up their agenda concerning the “unconstitutionality of federal taxes.” Ultimately, their goal is to “take the government back” and place it under “common law.”
You don’t want to know what they mean by “common law: but it includes harming and even killing anyone they want without consequences.
Xena,
I’m a decades long supporter of the SPLC (Southern Poverty Law Center)and what you’ve written is true. These “sovereign citizen/militia/Supremacist groups number in the several hundreds, and are spreading across the USA like a cancer.
Have a look at the SPLC’s “hate map” http://www.SPLC.org
There were 1,018 such groups Dec 2011. This year the number will be even higher
@looneydoone.
Oh yes. I’m familiar with the work of the SPLC. What has happened in the last 10 yrs or so, is that individuals pick up some of the sovereign citizenship arguments without knowing the root. Posse Comitus has always sought out those with problems, such as debts, foreclosure, unemployment, etc. They made headway in Florida when people began facing foreclosures.
Thus, it would not surprise me if Taaffe picked up on the sovereign’s argument and “renters” were blamed for everything short of hurricanes. He found a wiling participant to “fight the government” with Zimmerman resulting in the taking of Trayvon’s innocent life.
Somewhere in their theory involving property, they think it’s unconstitutional to pay for housing — only property taxes for land is “common law” which also allows them to kill “trespassers” without consequences.
“The attorneys estimate the trial will last three weeks with jury selection taking more time the trial itself.”
Does this mean that there will be no SYG-court-fight?! I hope not, because that’s a fight I will be flying down to Florida to watch live.
Let me know and I’ll buy the tickets…My Treat !! The lawyers that I do expert reports for all concur he’ll never file a SYG claim. I have a copy of the FL Gun Law & Ownership Guide. There are many issues he can’t overcome in any way, shape or form. He never took the courses, yet got his refund.
If it goes to trial, I can’t imagine only 3 weeks. The attorney ethics code also states Moron O’ Mara must get his client off ASAP if he has any chance of immunity. He hasn’t filed so, there probably won’t be any SD or SYG. The latest lawyer on his team, whose name escapes me is a plea bargain guy.
West — used to be with the PD’s office. They do almost exclusively plea bargains.
Please, no plea bargain for this thing, I want him to do so much time until he will be ready to enter a nursing home when and if he is ever released. Angela Cory shouldn’t even entertain the thought of offering him a plea deal. after all he killed an innocent unarmed child. he doesn’t deserve any better than what he gave Trayvon. I’m walking by faith and not by sight and, I’m praying everyday that this baby and his family receive the justice that they are entitled to.
@ ladystclaire
I totally agree
Omara tweeted that the syg should be in May pr April
I won’t hold my breath
GZ will need to take the stand at an immunity hearing. No one else can testify what he felt or believed to justify using deadly force. O’Mara knows the harm that will come if GZ takes the stand. He’s possibly working at trying to build a defense that does not require GZ to testify — meaning, he needs those who treated GZ’s boo-boo’s to testify that they were life threatening. Good luck with that!
Xena says: “GZ will need to take the stand at an immunity hearing. No one else can testify what he felt or believed to justify using deadly force. O’Mara knows the harm that will come if GZ takes the stand.
“He’s possibly working at trying to build a defense that does not require GZ to testify.- meaning, he needs those who treated GZ’s boo-boo’s to testify that they were life threatening
So there won’t be an immunity hearing if GZ does not take the stand?
The defense O’Mara is working on is for the murder 2 trial? (I can’t see how EMS workers can truthfully say GZ’s injuries were life threatening and yet they did not insist he be seen by a physician in a hospital environment were tests could be run.)
Sorry I am confused as to what goes on in SYG/immunity/self-defense versus trial for murder 2.
Can he claim to have felt great bodily harm or death with one punch to the nose. Are there experts who would testify that there have been deaths due to a fall on the back of the head or a whack to the nose. If so, would that be enough for him to claim he had to shoot and kill. I don’t have a clue about medical circumstances. However, there is no proof that his injuries occurred at the hands of Trayvon. Is there a medical professional that would say that any fresh injuries to Trayvon’s knuckles would not appear because of his death, not giving enough time for them to appear. Zimmerman claims to have been smacked by a brick or something – he didn’t know what. Was that can tested for DNA. I ask because it seems to have simply just moved aside and not considered. If Trayvon had the can in his hand and was smacking Zimmerman in the nose, no bruising or scratches would show on his body. But, with his force behind the can in his fist, may have caused the injuries to Zimmerman’s head. Is this all a possible defence. I know the evidence of the actual shooting does not jive with Zimmerman’s story. But, he is claiming bad memory, blood in his eyes, feeling he was about to pass out, etc.. In other words, in his mind, he may have not been in his right mind to make an informed decision about his life or death injuries. Is this a defence.
grahase says: “If Trayvon had the can in his hand and was smacking Zimmerman in the nose, no bruising or scratches would show on his body. But, with his force behind the can in his fist, may have caused the injuries to Zimmerman’s head.”
IF Trayvon had used the can to smash GZ’s nose/head, surely there would be damage to the can.
In any case, in spite of “life threatening” injuries, GZ refused transport to a hospital to see a physician and undergo testing for broken nose, contusions, internal injuries or even sutures for the minor lacerations that really are not consistent with a head bashing into concrete several times as GZ claims.
Wonder if the can had any damage or was tested for GZ DNA.
Tzar, he’s hoping he will get the school records and in the school records he will find the following:
“Gym teacher reports that Trayvon has been training all day and night with weights, etc., in an obsessive way, saying he hopes to soon be able to beat a white Hispanic to death with his bare hands. We counseled him to try to find a more constructive use of his time and energy but he was single-mindedly devoted to this rather unlikely goal in life. Several of his teachers point out that he does have talents in other fields like aerodynamics but he is not easily dissuaded from this obsession. He says, for instance, ‘Everybody’s gonna know my name someday; they gonna say, homie done us proud, yep; don’t try to tell me no other thing I need to do with my life ’cause this here is God’s plan.’ We hope to refer him for psychological counseling or perhaps get him a prescription for Adderall.”
Once he finds this in Trayvon’s high school records, O’Mara will be all ready for his SYG hearing. He’ll just subpoena the gym teacher and get all this into evidence and George will walk!
Unless…
I dont think SYG will work for Zimmerman because his only proof that it was self defense for him, is Zimmerman’s own words.
Too many inconsistencies and lies and bias for him to be found credible.
He is like John Orr in making the same “pinned on ground self defense theory”.
Kind of hard to take that as truth when none of his clothes contained debris or grass or mud stains, considering his shimmy shimmy ya claims.
His head had two small scratches that bled and he had a bloody nose and a couple tiny scratches on his nose.
Does not sound like he got attacked like he claims, perhaps Zimmerman had an altercation with a tree or a bush.
I also doubt injuries for a “sidewalk head bashing” would be easily healed with funny looking knuckle bandaids, like his super minor injuries did.
I also doubt he had a broken nose, as it does not look broken and Zimmerman denied medical attention which makes me think he knew it was not serious and I doubt a broken nose needs a funny looking knuckle bandaid to fix, especially since it is not broken
I do not get why the Zimdiots keep calling and claiming GZ’s story of the head bashing on concrete… it is hard cement and a human skull would crack open… not leave two tiny scratches
@grahase
“Can he claim to have felt great bodily harm or death with one punch to the nose.” – Yes, he can “claim.” Do his injuries look like injuries one might have sustained if they feared great bodily harm or death? No, not in the least. Would a reasonable person sustaining those injuries fear great bodily harm or death? Well, that is what a jury is for.
“Are there experts who would testify that there have been deaths due to a fall on the back of the head or a whack to the nose?” There are probably experts you can pay to say anything and even we can probably find incidents of people who die from a fall to the back of the head – perhaps maybe even a whack to the nose, but that won’t fly here because GZ did NOT die and, in fact, was checked out at the scene and refused medical care and refused further followup the next day. Sure – he was worried about money I suppose, but if he was so in fear of life-threatening injuries to the point he had to take a human life, don’t you think he would have things checked out?
Plus, having grown up in a household with legal professionals, having taken courses in legal/criminal justice stuff and having “friends,” don’t you think he would think that even if only remotely possible (like on the off chance they did not believe he shot in self-defense), he might want to have some kind of backup, evidence, proof, etc – just in case it went to court, you know, to cover his butt?
Kinda makes one wonder why he didn’t go. Could be many reasons for that, only reasonable if trying to hide something (IMO).
Don’t forget that an aggressor cannot claim self-defense, even if he reasonably believes he is in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm, he must still offer and attempt to withdraw from the fight he started before he can use deadly force in self-defense.
Also, don’t forget that he knew the police arrival was imminent and he has admitted to having wrist control of Trayvon just before he grabbed his gun and shot him. So much for George being in imminent danger of any harm when he decided to use deadly force.
Its gonna be pathetic if the school records get used at trial
Imagine…
Omara: “Trayvon was good at math in Kindergarten and loved recess. Its definitely self defense for George Zimmerman”
LOL
Zimmerman’s head injuries weren’t severe enough for stitches so they would have been better off without the bada55 bandaids. Note that the EMTs didn’t see the need for bandaids. Minor boo-boos like that are heal better when the air can get to them. The bandaids were theatrical props.
I realized that Zimmerman can claim all the injuries he wants, it does not necessarily mean Trayvon caused them nor does it automatically mean he can shoot Trayvon in the heart and asphyxiate him… because the State can just bring in their witnesses and they cant really argue forensic evidence… that is science and physics in work…
Because even if Zimmerman does not take the stand and show his injuries… there’s nothing that says Trayvon caused them or if Trayvon caused them, it was not justified force… no one has claimed what Zimmerman claims….
They can bring witness 6 in but he is not credible as he has given the police 3 different stories…
911 call he claims wrestling and gunshot
first statement he claims MMA beating than recants
Now his current story is Man in Black was pinning Red
There was no debris, mud or grass smears on Zimmerman’s back of his jacket, shoes, and pants, nor does his clothes look ruffled…
This will be interesting. Zimmerman just turned 29 which means that he is in the middle of his first Saturn Return (reaping whatever he has sown since birth) and finally growing up and accepting responsibilty for his actions.
Zimmerman’s Libra sun will also be opposed by Uranus which is in Aries now and eventually squared by Pluto in Capricorn.
George is going to have a difficult 2013 and 2014 if he lives that long.
I have trouble believing in astrology, but wonder if O’Mara&West are blowing smoke heroically so that GZ doesn’t do himself in and take Shellie with him.
Fed-up taxpayer says: “……but wonder if O’Mara&West are blowing smoke heroically so that GZ doesn’t do himself in and take Shellie with him.
I doubt O’Mara and West care about GZ to blow smoke to keep he and ShelLIE alive. If they are smart, they see GZ as the lying sociopath he is.
I also think GZ’s type of personality disorder would not allow him to do himself in. He believes he is special, a superstar, thanking the “masses” for supporting him..
As far as ShelLIE, don’t know what she is capable of with those cold dead eyes. Maybe she will be the one to off GZ. She has a pending perjury charge because of GZ and she has to be bored beyond belief with no life outside of Zimmerman-land.
jm, I concur. George is in heaven right now with all of the attention the mouthbreathers are giving him and not fearing for his life every minute of the day as O’Mara would have everyone believe.
If George did harm anyone it would be O’Mara first followed closely by the prosecution then Shellie only if she refused to worship George as the god that he is. LOL
Poor Shellie is codependent and as such, a self-made prisoner of GZ. She has a great chance of walking away, healing herself, and turning her life around.
I think he will take off never to be seen again.
I have problems understanding much of astrology, but the dates of births in this case have interested me. Trayvon’s is 2/5. O’Mara’s is 2/8. They are both Aquarius, an air sign. But so is GZ. Trayvon has already fulfilled his life path. O’Mara has a “fatherly” characteristic life path. GZ’s life path is isolation.
Can’t help but wonder if O’Mara is closer to Trayvon’s cause than GZ’s?
I don’t think Shellie will serve time. How many people have served time for perjury in Florida. She will likely get a slap on the wrist and probation, if anything. I mean, in my opinion, George and OMara perjured themselves with regard to the money he had and neither were charged. Why should it fall on her. Others were involved in this money scheme.
“I mean, in my opinion, George and OMara perjured themselves with regard to the money he had and neither were charged. Why should it fall on her. Others were involved in this money scheme.”
Only ShelLIE was stupid enough to lie under oath. It is my understanding GZ can still be charged for his part in the scheme.
If the state believes that Shellie was in the truck, there may be some pressure on Shellie to testify against George in return for a walk on the perjury.
However Uranus (Z’s that is) will be in conflict with Bubba…..
Just sayin ……..
LOL, finally, I can understand that is what is in store for GZ astrology-wise.
I’ve always thought that GZ is getting the Saturn return of the century . . . Some astrologers said earlier this year that October 2012 would be the turning point in the case, and I think we can now see why. There will be no easy walk-away from an SYG or SD hearing, despite the hard-headed beliefs of his supporters, and even OM clearly talks about trial as if that’s set in stone. IMHO, a jury is unlikely to acquit. The question is whether they go for M2 or manslaughter, or if there’s some sudden turn to a plea bargain.
Thank you for your analysis. I kept hearing the same old story from Robert Jr. and O’Mara about this broken nose business, I thought they were working on an angle about what was reasonable and what was not. You have applied logic and I appreciate your having calmed me down.
Broken Nose
http://cdn2.cagepotato.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/richfranklin.jpg
Broken Nose
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/BrokenNose.jpg/220px-BrokenNose.jpg
Zimmerman’s nose at the police station
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/wp-content/gallery/evidencephotos/031.jpg
LMAO guy is such a liar
I would love to know how GZ self-diagnosed his broken nose. Has he had one before? How could anyone be sure they had a broken nose?
What did the EMS people see as far as bone injuries to his nose? Why didn’t GZ follow up and see an ENT?
Also would like to see before and after photos to see the effects of a “broken nose” on GZ’s appearance.
Jun…..Just an observation re:George’s photo of his “broken nose”…….If you look at all the scratches on his face, they seem to run diagonally, from the top-right of the picture, to the bottom-left of the picture……you can almost draw a diagonal line, from one to another, to line them up. It looks as if he ran into branches of a tree or something similar…..and since his nose sticks out the farthest, it was smacked the hardest across the bridge……….IMHO
I work as a Paramedic/FF, if it is not written in the patient care report, it didn’t happen. That’s how it works in court. The PCR is a legal document , therefore documentation is very important. Can’t go making thngs up after the fact. I am sure that the crew on that rig is not interested on putting their certificates/license(Brady) on the line for the likes of GZ.
Thoughts http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtU9jTDTZg4
Dersh is talking out of his ass
Lol
I hope Prof Leatherman will comment on this. In my opinion, Dershowitz is taking an extreme view.
This was Dershowitz’s brilliant contribution back in May, remember. He has been pretty quiet recently.
When he first came out with his bullsh*t I immediately attacked him on the Jonathan Turley blog, and Turley and he are friends, so I was odd man out. Dershowitz, however, has a record for going on record saying things that are not only pure and absolute wrong, but that are wacko illogical and deliberately false as well. POINT: When William Kennedy Smith was acquitted of rape, Dershowitz went on the air that very night to tell America that the prosecutor should right then draw perjury charges against the complaining witness (the alleged victim of the rape) because SINCE the man was acquitted of rape, she was a liar and had lied under oath.
OK? This is the most famous Harvard Law Professor talking to an America full of non-lawyers and non-logicians and telling them what should be?
Wouldn’t that mean that all complaining witnesses after acquittals should be charged with crimes for trying to get innocent defendants convicted? How soon would you have a Taliban-like system where everyone was afraid to accuse lest they be destroyed by the accused? Dershowitz, furthermore, KNEW that what he was doing amounted to a giant public fraud. HE KNEW that “reasonable doubt” amounted to probably 10% doubt, and that 10% does not equal a prima facie case for indictment of a major crime like perjury. So he goes on TV and says something HE KNOWS is wrong to slander a woman who still claims that she was raped even though the jury found that there could be 10% doubt about the guilt of the man she accused. Think of what Dershowitz did with that news camera that night; I think it was “a crime.”
It was never, however, identified as a crime on the law books of any state. So he would not be charged with a crime for having done it. I considered it wrong and bad. But it was not, technically, legally, a crime.
OK, fast forward to Angela Corey. She filed a perfectly valid affidavit of probable cause according to Florida law. His complaint against her, and his wild charges that she should be prosecuted for “a crime,” was based on the fact that SHE did not include in the affidavit any information about George Zimmerman’s allegedly bloody head as revealed by ABC (not a state agency, merely a media source) to the public, which photograph allegedly showed that George banged his head — or that somebody else banged George’s head — just before, during, or just after the killing of Trayvon Martin.
Dershowitz gleefully and reprehensibly went on national TV to say that Corey should be prosecuted for not putting possible (we still do not know the provenance or chain of custody data about the allged photograph) DEFENSE evidence into her probable cause affidavit.
Excuse me while I choke nearly to death and have to kill someone in self-defense because I fear for my life, but…
WTF?
DERSHOWITZ, grow up or shut up.
FOLKS, stop listening to this inane or insane “punditroll.”
Does anybody remember a prosecutor charging rape against ANY DEFENDANT in any case in any state of the Union ever putting into a probable cause affidavit, “There may be some pictures of the defendant scowling, thus showing that the alleged victim was requiring him against his will to have rough sex with her”? So, um, where did this wacko idea come from?
Oh, THAT’s where it came from: Dershowitz pulled it out of his assets. HOT DOG! What stake has he got in all this? Why does he relish the idea of serving up such corny stuff? Is he just trying to ketchup on his media blitzes by butting into any old public legal case? Or did he think he might get hired? To do what, defend Zimmerman or to be appointed special prosecutor of Angela Corey? I doubt he should be firing up his grill just yet, on that count. Because I think the case he suggested should be brought against Corey might not pass mustard. He should have gone home licking his chops long ago.
(Damn, I’m hungry!)
x
Someone acquitted is not innocent. They are simply deemed not guilty, right. So, how could you charge witnesses with anything. Someones acquittal means that the charge could not be proven beyond reasonable doubt.
Excellent rant. Dershowitz is a racist ass.
Pass muster
Dershowitz is a whiny hypocrite and used his status to spread propaganda, knowing full well he is full of it. The funny thing is he made numerous criticisms of the case and was proven wrong but when Corey made criticism’s of his behaviour, he went crying on national media how Corey is such a “big bad lady”.
At 74, Mr Dershowitz has outlived his reputation as a legal prodigy. It was a pity to see him out there making specious comments about this case in the hopes of making himself famous again.
Know what I find interesting about Professor Dershowitz and the Zidiots? Dershowitz was legal consultant for O.J. Simpson’s legal team in his murder trial. The Zidiots have posted comments about O.J;s attorneys being everything but ethical — but they uphold Dershowitz’s opinions when it comes to attacking SA Corey.
Lol.
Noooooo….the Zidiot Nation could never be hypocritical…
Over on the other site there is a whole new breed of Zidiots that claim everything from Trayvon’s mangled knuckles, to the badly smashed and obviously broken nose as proof Z will walk.
It’s not even a challenge anymore to humiliate them…child’s play.
Racerrodig, that is why I don’t waste time debating them — because they LIE and refuse to stay with discovery material. The Zidiots still represent Trayvon as a grown man, over 6’3″, skilled in fighting, with, like you say, mangled knuckles and GZ’s blood all over him that was washed off by the rain. OTOH, the rain did not wash off blood on GZ’s head, which was not already dried when the EMT’s arrived but rather, was still oozing down the back of his head onto the collar of his jacket which was also stained with grass and dirt that anyone can see in the vids taken at the police station.
I read one Zidiot say that Trayvon pulled his sleeves over his hands when beating GZ. When asked about the lack of evidence on Trayvon’s sleeves, she deflected to denigrating the entire Black race.
Like other conspiracy theorists and those using lies to support their theories, they do it to frustrate like little kids who harass their parents in effort to get their way. Finally doing what they want to do, they take the position that since their parent didn’t say no after asked the tenth time, that it meant yes. IOWs, the Zidiots now take the position that since the “Trayvonites” won’t debate them, that it means GZ has succeeded and the State will dismiss the charge.
Xena….Re: lying Zidiots……How on earth does the Prosecution screen out people like this when it comes time for jury selection? Just the thought that people like this could sit on ANY jury makes me “a tad” fearfull.
That’s why they have people who specialize in jury selection processes. I don’t know if the SP will have access to such expertise, but I would certainly think so.
How far can the prosecution and defense go as far as looking into potential jurors past? In other words, can they look into a potential juror’s social media history to see if they post in favor of GZ’s actions or may have racist tendencies? How far can a specialist in jury selection go to look into backgrounds of jurors?
Specialist don’t need to look into a jurors past very far at all, although more information is helpful. But they are specialized in recognizing speech patterns and word usage, body language and things like that, very sensitive to the various key words used in many different areas and, of course, databases, because no one can remember it all.
In the end it’s still pretty much guess work and it doesn’t always go perfectly. But, as with anything else we do, knowledge gives one an edge. Mans intelligence did not always ensure survival, but what it did was give us the edge in better than 50% of situations. Over time, even a very small percentage has very dramatic results.
Figure that a specialist will catch the most obvious unwanted jurors easily and even a few who are not so obvious. Leaving only those who can conceal their motivations very well or better. So it’s a “better than nothing” good start.
@winter sky.
Something that I’ve noticed about them is a sense of arrogance and over confidence. I don’t think they will be able to hide that.
none of his remarks are truthful or accurate. dershowitz is certainly not held in esteem by many people anymore! he sounds jealous of corey and her position.
his comments also make me wonder if there’s something medically wrong with him and i question his mental state. maybe he’s depressed…
You said,
Lots of people still respect Dershowitz and I doubt he is jealous of Corey.
I believe Dershowitz is past his prime and I do not take him seriously anymore, but I am sure there are many people who disagree with me.
I did not agree with his comments about Corey and the Affidavit of Probable Cause.
It doesn’t strike me that Dershowitz is actually jealous of Corey, but I think the reason he became so inflamed about what she did was that he presumed nobody could be so dismissive of his expert position on the case as to totally go against his wishes. He just arrogated to himself enormous RIGHT, TITLE AND INTEREST to the workings of criminal law all over the country because HE’s the big poobah, see? So this female whippersnapper from FLORIDAH comes up and says, “I’m not gonna consult the guru; I’m not gonna go with what Lord High Executioner Dershowitz says; I’m gonna charge what I THINK the charge should be, and I’m gonna do it my way.” Got right under his thin skin, it did.
The way he came at her: “It’s a CRIME!” — that wasn’t about her affidavit. That was about her failure to kowtow to His Royal Highness the Master of Constitutional Law for the grateful people, a la Hahvahd, don’t you know? How dare she?
George, surely, will be freaking out now and may need his meds now more than ever – as the torturous anxiety builds up. O’Mara is also put on notice. He (O’Mara) can now either concentrate on the substance of the case, start an SYG-court-bout or he can continue writing blogs and chasing after any mouse Crump & Co. let out.
Here’s how I see George right now. I see him sustaining himself by compulsively doing self-build-up stuff like reading the pro-Zim rage at the Outhouse, like telling his folks over and over again how badly Travon beat him up, how he feared for his life, yada yada yadabahaha ad nauseam.
I also see him compulsively watching “Hero” movies and identifying with the tough guy who survives regardless of the insurmountable odds against him.
And I think he’s drugged out.
Of course, all this is in my own imagination. In truth, “I don’t know what his thing is.”
Malisha says: ” ……. like telling his folks over and over again how badly Travon beat him up, how he feared for his life, yada yada yadabahaha ad nauseam.”
Wonder if the Zimmerman clan have heard enough of his BS to privately tell George to STFU.
Hey I think the Outhouse closed down the thread where I was defending Trayvon Martin. HA HA HA!
They can’t take it when someone defends one of their victims. I have found that the defense of victims seems to enrage abusers more than anything else. They equate it with blasphemy as if they are gods!
How normal is a schedule like that? It has been a while now. At least superficially it seems that the evidence is about as well-documented as one could hope.
follow
In the defense hearing on discovery issues, I hope they get to the bottom of the Crump/DeeDee interview recording mystery.
Whonoze, you have been absent for a while and we have all missed you. Welcome back. You raised a very important point. Can elaborate more on the “Crump/DeeDee interview recording mystery”? Wherein lies the “mystery” and what is the relevance thereof?
Agreed. I’m not sure there’s any “mystery” and certainly not a legally relevant one that the defense could explore. Crump is not a party to the proceedings and it appears that DeeDee’s phone records were verified by the prosecution.
The defense’s request to depose Crump and Jackson is an attempt to satisfy the rage of George’s racist supporters who don’t like seeing to uppity black folks calling out their hero for the nutcase he is.
I agree with you that neither Crump nor Jackson are relevant to the case against Zimmerman so I am sure O’Mara will have to subpoena both of them.
roderick2012
right on point
Whonoze is speaking about the audio quality or lack thereof in the recoding of this first Dee Dee interview, the one with her and ABCNews/Crump asking the questions. ABC news has played portions of the interview on the air that are good quality. The prosecution has made a very poor quality version public by sharing this with the defense in a sunshine state.
Whonoze and others note that there are more issues discussed on the ABCnews/Crump tape than on the deposition recorded by the prosecutor’s investigator.
One thing that seems to be mentioned by Dee Dee in the ABCnews/Crump recording is the she had the clear impression that Trayvon was shadowed/ chased by the moving car. In other words there was a car-to-pedestrian chase that took place according to her understanding of the events. She was NOT asked specifically about this by state investigators in her formal deposition. This is a very important point that George worked hard to leave out of his story, but ended up telling inconsistent and contradictory accounts instead.
Whonoze and others wonder why ABC seems to have a good quality version (although only partially revealed) while the defense and the public have one that is almost impossible to understand. That’s the “mystery,” and it’s not a conspiracy theory, it’s just a frustrating situation that so far remains unexplained.
CherokeeNative reminded me the other day of attorney-client privilege. O’Mara and West can forget deposing Attorneys Crump and Jackson.
Jd,
Good point about Whonoze’s “mystery”. That makes sense.
Thanks jd. That’s exactly what I was referring to: how ABC has played not just better clips, but also parts of the interview that are not in the recording that was included in the discovery.
“The defense’s request to depose Crump and Jackson is an attempt to satisfy the rage of George’s racist supporters who don’t like seeing to uppity black folks calling out their hero for the nutcase he is.”
More high theatre and another defense distraction.
Missed you guys… Interesting to hear the trail date is set for June…
Loc him up!
The theme of the ZimTeam is pretty simple:
Anybody who wants Zim punished for this kill is bad;
That’s because this kill was good;
This kill was good because Trayvon Martin was bad;
We’d have loved to kill him ourselves;
So we worship Zim because he actually did what we wanted to do.
Don’t insult us all by suggesting we don’t have the right to kill whomever we profile and slander. It really pisses us off to not be allowed to just kill whoever we think deserves it; it makes us feel impotent and powerless and victimized and gee whillakers, we just plain hate that feeling and it’s all your FAULT!
So with all that being the axiom and its corollaries, they have an impenetrable closed system of rage, resentment and indignation. And telling them to “get over it” doesn’t work.
“This kill was good because Trayvon Martin was bad.”
Whether Trayvon Martin was “bad” is not relevant. GZ had no idea what Trayvon’s background was when he profiled him, followed him, confronted him and killed him.
That’s about the sickest defense of GZ I have heard and why I can’t read the idiots’ posts at the treehouse. It scares me that people can think like this.
And the most preposterous thing of all is they have all this spiritual stuff going on at the website. At the same time they malign a dead kid and his parents they have prayer requests, “inspirational” thoughts for the Zimmermans, spiritual music, etc. They are clearly blockheads with one-track minds and they feel so self-righteous in their defense of Zimmerman ignoring blatant facts that prove he is lying, but that doesn’t matter to them as long as Trayvon can be proved to be “bad” deserving to die at the hands of their “hero” GZ.
This is a sicker world than I imagined.
OMG jm, I feel the exact same way. To say the things they say, to do the things they do, then use all this prayer, spirituality and inspiration is just plain blasphemy!!!
That is one sick, scary place and the idea that these people are out amongst me and breath the same air I do is an awful feeling.
Are ANY of us safe in a world with people like that in it?
X 1000 Well said. The fact is that Z didn’t have the right to kill Hitler if he was walking in the rain on a Sunday in a suspicious manner.
jm, I agree with you 100%. I did, however, imagine how sick this world was. I cut my teeth on it.
Roderick, you say George is in heaven right now with all of the attention the mouthbreathers are giving him — well let him have his time in Heaven. He’s not gonna get any time there AFTER he reaches the pearly gates, after all.
Maybe we can all meet up in Florida in June!
We should get a few bets going — no money changing hands though because that’s gambling — but laying odds and so forth would be fun, wouldn’t it?
It would be fun, to meet people from here and watch the trial together.
Yes, it would and we could motor on over to the beach on the weekends.
I’m in.
I REFUSE TO STEP FOOT IN FLORIDA WITHOUT A CONCEAL CARRY LICENSE. Someone has to protect us. LOL!
I refuse to spend a dime there–I mean, SYG? And if you’re deemed to have SYG, no one can hold you responsible for any damage you’ve done– you’re golden! Plus, there are too many gigantic snakes and alligators.
Florida is ruined for me with the likes of GZ and Casey Anthony. Maybe too much sun fries the brain?
I have an open BBQ invitation on the other site and I’ll extend it here. Actually met one of the nicest people on earth there, Another Andy, and he came here for BBQ….we had a fabulous time !!
If there is a trial it will be very interesting to watch the Zim family as they express their disdain and contempt for anyone who testifies to something they consider wrong, won’t it? One of the things I find very telling is the manner in which folks who feel they are entitled to judge others behave when a different judge is in control.
>^^< bout time!
Jun, I don’t think Trayvon’s school records are for the trial; I think they’re for the theater. I think the theater keeps up until all of a sudden there’s either a plea bargain or a big escape.
Two things make me think George is going to have bad luck from here on out: (meaning, probably, no big escape)
Thing 1: He meant to get one of his pre-O’Mara bozo lawyers to “talk to” Corey for him but he couldn’t, so I believe he tried to talk to her himself but perhaps she wouldn’t go for that, so I believe he put some stuff, including his gun, into his car and drove down himself to her office but had not heard that the announcement had already been made that he was being charged. So he ooopsed right into the lion’s den when he had intended to go to see her just to charm her into understanding why Wolfinger was correct in not charging him with any crime. Mistake #2 (Mistake #1 was killing an unarmed kid while in a self-induced rage against a55hole punks). THEN he hid a duplicate passport and a bunch of money hoping, as Judge Lester commented, to escape that way but got caught short on that one too. Mistake #3. Thus, I believe he is definitely on a bad luck streak and should not plan for his luck to change any time soon.
Thing 2: Karma.
I have always wondered why he called Corey’s office and I can only theorize, however, your theory makes sense, as that is the only reason I can foresee him calling Corey.
Since Zimmerman was not a member of any Neighborhood Watch association, and self appointed, as well as being unidentifiable, and no crime was being committed, and allegedly Zimmerman was not on “duty”, he was acting as a citizen and even as a neighborhood watch (which I use loosely), he still is in trouble for breaking the law, and the rules of neighborhood watch.
There is obvious reason to believe the escape plans as George mentioned it in his jailhouse calls, he hid money and he hid a passport which concludes these suspicions.
He def should not have lied so much, considering, court scrutinizes everyone and everything before being found credible
@Malisha. I heard a news report (and think it is published also), that GZ called Corey’s office seeking protection. Keep in mind;
1. GZ had just launched his website and was receiving money.
2. He had left Osterman’s a few days or maybe a week earlier, and was living “up North.” He did drive through Maryland on his way back to Florida.
3. Serino called him twice in late March about giving another statement, and they agreed that he would come to Jacksonville for that purpose. GZ was suppose to contact Ulhrig and Sonner for arrangements.
I don’t remember now who GZ spoke to in Jacksonville, but they told him to come in. He was not aware that Corey was going to charge him when he arrived.
When I hear people say that GZ voluntarily turned himself in, I want to gag, because he did not.
WHAT???? DAMN
His school records will show he could only run a 13.5 hundred, but the Zidiot Nation will claim it’s from all those traces of THC.
You’re sure Z didn’t want to just tell her how good she looks in red ?? Really…..
He was fishing, of that there can be no doubt. “I’ll just drive right over there and tell her a thing about standing your ground, who does she think she’s messin’ with……”
He will walk before any trial happens – walk right out of the country. Osterman, being an Air Marshall will hide him in his suitcase.
I have a watch that cost $75 (it was a gift and the giver left the price tag on it!) that I have worn in the shower every day for 6 years. No harm at all. I’m sure the technology is not difficult.
I disagree, Grahase. I think George will SKIP out, quickly, but not in fear.
I believe Shellie will say, “not to my knowledge” about his departure. Osterman will say, “He told me that he didn’t leave and that he was kidnapped by the New Black Panther Party; they have probably killed him and buried the body somewhere.”
Conservative Outhouse will collect money for many of George’s friends overseas, all of whom will be engaged in efforts to investigate his disappearance and find the remains. His key-man life insurance will pay off $2,000,000 to the Neighborhood Watch, which will have to struggle along without him. Osterman’s wife will throw a funeral. No death certificate.
Robert Junior will go on the lecture tour again. Stock in compazine will rise and the pharmaceutical company Vipro will go way way up. Robert Senior and Gladys will have to take over George’s mentoring responsibilities.
LOL Malisha — then all will be well.
LOL!
Malisha you have made me laugh out loud once again. Love your take on George’s escape and family, friends and supporters reactions/stories.
You’re killing me !! Where’s the “Fan” button !!
Is Osterman still allowed to work as an air Marshall being that the world knows how he looks now
Osterman probably lost his job the moment his face was shown on TV because his job requires anonymity.
My sons godfather trains them in AC…I asked about this and he went one farther…..They have no record of him…..
@racerrodig.
Your comment caused me to look again at the discovery material. Osterman’s statement begins on page 77 of the 284 pg document file. It says:
“For the past 10 years, (redacted) has been employed as a (redacted). “
The first letter is a bit exposed, and looks like an “i.” The context clearly donates the title of a position rather than an employer.
“(Redacted) currently has firearms training with the (redacted) at least once a month and has not received any specialized firearms training.”
I am unsure what “specialized firearms training” consists of but apparently, Osterman is/was in a position that required firearms’ training. So the question is, what job title starts with an “i” and involves once a month firearms training?
“idiot”?
________________________________
“idiot”?
LOL! Yeah. The Ostermans kinda faded into the woodwork too after their book sales reached 20. LOL!
investigations – special agent – treasury department or national security agency
investigator – private or security company
ShelLIE seemed to be under the impression that Osterman had authority to get personnel to stop traffic. This was in one of her conversations with GZ when he was in jail. He was afraid that when he was released on bond, that the media would follow them.
Makes me wonder if Osterman planned to have it look like a funeral procession.
Suitcase? Do they still make Pullman trunks?
Okay guys – you made my day — laughing here, by myself, sitting at a computer screen. My 2 Himalayans are looking at me strange. LOL.
I wonder how one showers when wearing an electronic ankle bracelet.
See answer about waterproof watch — above — it got out of place somehow but I was trying to respond to this question.
thanks. yes, I saw your answer above and wondered where that came from. : )
George and his crowd are so arrogant that they believe they MUST be credible because they disrespect all those who have different versions. George actually believes that if he says “I got out of my truck to look for a street sign [or address]” he should automatically be believed. After all, those guys at the Outhouse believe him absolutely; Jeralyn Merritt believes him absolutely; Shellie and Gracie believe him absolutely; how can any good person NOT believe him absolutely?
To make this point seem more credible, he adds details: “and every time he smashed my head on the concrete I felt like my head was gonna explode”; and “so he said, you got a problem NOW and he punched me in the nose”; and “because when he was hitting me it felt like he had something in his hands so I spread his hands out”; and “he said ‘you got me’ or ‘you got it’ or something like that’ and he kind of sat up”; and “I was yelling for help but nobody helped me”; and “the investigators told me he knew I was on the phone”; and etc. etc. etc.
He thinks his “details” make his “story” irresistible. After all, how could his head have felt like it was gonna explode if it WASN’T being smashed into the pavement, answer me THAT?
His family shares his arrogance. They believe if THEY say something happened, nobody can dare to contravene that assertion. The strange thing is, they must believe the “scheme team” are just unbelievably powerful, to influence all this law enforcement action against him when he obviously was telling an obviously true story all along and all there is against him is NOT evidence but mere anti-white racism.
Weird! They’re so divorced from reality!
They kind of have to because they have nothing else except Zimmerman’s stories, their slander of the dead kid, and their hate and racism. Proving that under the scrutiny from the State is a whole other ball park. The State sounds like they are on their feet and ready, judging from all the quick objections from Bernie at the second bond hearing.
1) Zimmerman will have to prove he did not instigate the confrontation or attacked
2) Zimmerman will have to prove he was attacked
3) Trayvon also has a right to stand his ground and could be found to be justified in his attack, if he did attack Zimmerman
4) The fear from the attack or fear has to be reasonable in that it was imminent danger
5) The force used can not be excessive
6) Trayvon also has a right to be presumed innocent and confront any allegations made against him or act on his behalf since he is deceased and silenced by Zimmerman
7) Zimmerman has to be free from committing any unlawful acts or forcible felonies during his SYG claim
8) Zimmerman, if he fails to prove that he was not the instigator aka the aggressor, has to prove that he made every reasonable means and effort to quit the fight before being allowed to use SYG claims
9) Zimmerman also has to prove that Trayvon was not allowed to be where he was and there is special consideration given if the person sought to be removed is a child & Trayvon is a kid
Even by a preponderance of evidence, which is 51% or more, that is quite a lot of proving
AND, if we learn from the case Angela Corey built against Melissa Alexander, if George was acting in ANGER rather than in FEAR, no SYG protection. George can be obviously seen as acting in anger because he said: “These a55holes, they always get away.” Then shortly thereafter, Taaffe went on national TV saying: “George was fed up and he wasn’t going to take it any more.” That sounds like anger to me. Also, George told Hannity he was NOT AFRAID of Trayvon when he got out of his vehicle.
I think this is not a SYG. It may be a SYGGER-NAUGHT.
Not just arrogant but ignorant. They think what they are doing is conducting “investigation.” Now, that’s arrogant because they are not authorized to conduct “investigation.” It is also ignorant because the only investigation for GZ is that conducted by those with authority to do so.
But at least now we know why the Zidiots do not discuss discovery material.
Yep…..It goes back to………..
Officer.”…Mr. Zimmerman….you have the right to remain silent…”
Z “……umm….okay, but why would I do that ?………I have so many more versions to tell ya…..”
“He thinks his “details” make his “story” irresistible”
I noticed that about him
he also uses gratuitous useless details when he wants to distract the listener from the wanton bulshitteriness of the bullshit coming out of his mouth. The guy really thinks people give a flying fuck about his thoughts.
Did you hear Robert Zimmerman Jr, quote Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. yesterday. What next!
OMG!!!!
They have pulled almost every race card, from being white, to being black, to being hispanic. I am surprised he has not claimed to be Chinese LOL
Why is he quoting King when they are all racist against blacks?
Don’t leave out the Mexicans whom George don’t seem to fond of either oh I forgot the middle eastern people too.
Chinese! Good idea!
Did not hear it.
I have special ears that protect me from that kind of thing.
There’s a politician named Aiken who can explain all that.
I don’t know what Junior said — I hope he didn’t say, “I have a dream”!
There comes a point when silence becomes betrayal – Robert Jr. quoting MLK Jr.. He feels the need to speak out on behalf of the Zimmerman family.
I can understand him being there for his brother but all those other things he has done are irresponsible, disgusting, and shows no regard for others and he comes across very phony
I also do not get why it is Obama’s fault according to him…
Obama said he would look like a son of his…
How exactly does that polarize America or ignite the fire?
He is saying he feels for the family and he could have a son that looks like Trayvon
They complain about the most ridiculous and mundane and irrelevant things
Jun says: “They complain about the most ridiculous and mundane and irrelevant things.”
That is to keep the focus off of GZ and on ridiculous, mundane and irrelevant things. RZ Jr fancies himself attractive and literate, therefore he is making media rounds, hoping to save face for the family who raised the obviously mentally unbalanced GZ.
In the meantime, I think RZ Jr is auditioning for a job as a commentator at Fox News or any other media outlet who will have him.
They don’t mention that Romney also commented on the case though. Do they.
@grahase:What’d Romney say?
Jr. was jealous of his brother getting all the attention so he went on the road to get some attention for himself as the defender of the hero.
And don’t get any Zidiot started on “Ping Logs” Nooooo sirreee. That’s a 5,000 post argument. The Ping Logs will break this case wide open !!
Fed-up Taxpayer: Santorum, especially Gingrich, and Romney (they said much more than Obama). How soon they forget.
I am copying from CBS News and it is long, so get ready:
Republican presidential candidates Mitt Romney, Rick Santorum and Newt Gingrich have joined President Obama in weighing in on the shooting of Trayvon Martin.
After a rally in Shreveport, Louisiana on Friday, Romney called the murder a “terrible tragedy” that was “unnecessary, uncalled for, and inexplicable at this point.”
He added that it was “entirely appropriate” for the district attorney to be looking into the matter, and to have called a grand jury investigation in the pursuit of justice.
“Our hearts go out to his family, his loved ones, his friends,” Romney said. “This shouldn’t have happened.” He declined to comment on whether or not he felt the Justice Department should get involved.
Earlier in the day, the Romney campaign released a statement on the matter: “What happened to Trayvon Martin is a tragedy,” Romney said in the statement. “There needs to be a thorough investigation that reassures the public that justice is carried out with impartiality and integrity.” Romney ignored a question on the Martin story three days ago.
Gingrich discussed the situation on CNN Thursday night, where he said he believed the local district attorney was taking the right course.
“I have faith that the American system of justice and that this is why you have a balance between the police and the district attorney,” he said. “The district attorney has the ability to step in and say, ‘wait a minute, let’s look at this again.’ They’re clearly doing that. The police chief himself has been suspended. And I think that Americans can recognize that while this is a tragedy — and it is a tragedy — that we are going to relentlessly seek justice and I think that’s the right thing to do.”
Gingrich was also asked Florida’s Stand Your Ground law, which host Piers Morgan called “nonsense.” Gingrich largely defended the law but suggested it did not apply in this case. People “should not be translating ‘standing their own ground’ into ‘pushing somebody else,’” said Gingrich.
He added that “apparently the shooter was following the young man — that’s not a stand your own ground, that’s a chase the other person into their ground.” He said he expected that the law would thus not apply to this case, though he stressed he had not heard the full evidence in the case.
Speaking to reporters Friday, Gingrich hit many of the same notes about the situation. He said “there’s a point in there where it ought to be some kind of signal that’s pretty clear that this is a guy who found a hobby that’s pretty dangerous.”
“Do I think citizens ought to have the right to defend themselves if attack? Sure,” he said. “The question here is was he attacked or was he the attacker and that’s what the grand jury will lead to. If they decide he was the attacker I suspect they’ll indict him and if they indict him their going to go to a jury trial. And I support that I think this is a case. Again if somebody breaks into your home and you’re at risk you ought to have the right to defend yourself.”
Santorum, like Gingrich, suggested the situation could be handled by local officials. The FBI, Justice Department and U.S. Attorney’s office have said they will investigate the killing.
“I think that the local and state can do a great job here,” Santorum said in Louisiana Friday, after firing at a shooting range. He added that “you already see the local community is reacting and responding and hopefully this matter will be an example of what law enforcement needs to do in a case like this.”
“Stand Your Ground is not doing what this man did,” Santorum said. “So, there’s a difference between Stand Your Ground and doing what he did and it’s a horrible case. It’s chilling to hear what happened and of course the fact that law enforcement didn’t immediately go after and prosecute this case is another chilling example of you know obviously horrible decisions made by people in this process.”
Fed-Up Taxpayer: Please pay particular attention to the comments made by Gingrich. It ain’t just the liberal Democrats folks.
@grahase:
I SO hope those at the outhouse see this. Not that it would do a darn bit of good, but they need to know that they are not in touch with reality or reasonability. If they would take just a moment and get away from their isolation and climb down from their treehouse to see how human being think and feel, well IDK but thank you so much for posting this.
They wanted Obama to say, “If I had a son he would behave a lot better than Trayvon.”
Maybe they’d like Romney to say, “My sons look like George Zimmerman.”
Does he liken the very thought of being called racist to that of the Vietnam War:
The actual quote is from a speech given by MLK Jr.. He is actually quoting from another source. Zimmerman Jr. – your quote is incorrect and completely inappropriate.
I come to this magnificent house of worship tonight because my conscience leaves me no other choice. I join with you in this meeting because I am in deepest agreement with the aims and work of the organization which has brought us together: Clergy and Laymen Concerned about Vietnam. The recent statement of your executive committee are the sentiments of my own heart and I found myself in full accord when I read its opening lines: “A time comes when silence is betrayal.” That time has come for us in relation to Vietnam.
The Zimmermans do have a huge dose of self-importance to feel they need to steal a quote (incorrectly and inappropriately) from a speech of one of the most influential men in America talking about the value of human life. Robert Zimmerman Jr. — you may have wanted to ACTUALLY listen or read the speech. You may have saved yourself from the embarrassment of exposing your ignorance and absence of integrity.
grahase says: “Robert Zimmerman Jr. — you may have wanted to ACTUALLY listen or read the speech. You may have saved yourself from the embarrassment of exposing your ignorance and absence of integrity.”
RZ Jr is playing to the crowd of ignorant people (conservative treehouse-types) who have no integrity. I doubt RZ Jr is capable of being embarrassed any more than his remorseless brother is embarrassed for getting caught in lies.
This arrogant family is so disgusting in their brazen attempts to spin the truth to divert attention from the murder of Trayvon Martin by GZ while begging for money to support them and a murderer.
George Zimmerman your days are numbered. You cut trayvon Martin days off now a jury of your peers will do the same to you. It’s in God Plan….
Amen.
At the Shellie Zimmerman hearing today, the state and defense agree to delay next court date until December 12th.
If Shellie can manage to delay her own case until after GZ’s trial, she will then be free to throw GZ and O’Mara under the bus – claiming that she acted as she did on the insistence of her hubby and on the advise of GZ’s counsel – while that will not relieve her of her crime, it may work towards a lesser penalty. If after GZ’s trial, she could enter into a plea deal where she agrees to testify that O’Mara was aware of the funds and told her and GZ to lie about them…
The court does not want to hear from Shellie or anybody else that O’Mara knew about the hidden money; they want to protect O’Mara even if he did know and even if the Court knows that he did know. You can bet on that.
Courts only go after lawyers who have not “paid their dues” to the exaltation of the lordly courts. O’Mara has always done so. They will protect him at all costs.
IF Shellie tried to roll over on O’Mara and even if George, after the whole thing is over and he has lost, tries to harm O’Mara, they will lose miserably and get a bit of a drubbing to teach them a lesson. I don’t believe O’Mara has any exposure at all. Shellie, on the other hand, is just as vulnerable as George is, and she is more likely to be scapegoated. ALSO I believe she will never roll over on George, or at least won’t do that until maybe four, five years after he’s in prison. Very fragile ego, very dependent personality, and George is her religion.
Malisha says: “The court does not want to hear from Shellie or anybody else that O’Mara knew about the hidden money; they want to protect O’Mara even if he did know and even if the Court knows that he did know. You can bet on that. Courts only go after lawyers who have not “paid their dues” to the exaltation of the lordly courts. O’Mara has always done so. They will protect him at all costs. ”
So there is a “good ol’ boy network” within the court system?
I do not agree with this statement. I cannot speak for Seminole County or the Florida Courts, but I can speak for Seattle and western Washington where I practiced law for many years. It’s not true there.
Professor and jm, Malisha is an excellent, very gifted satirist. That I know for sure.
@SearchingMind: Not only satire, but eloquent well-organized writing generally! I’d love to read a whole book by Malisha.
In any SYG-hearing, the question whether or not Zimmerman’s injuries were life threatening will be a secondary one.
The primary question that must be answered FIRST (before proceeding to the secondary) will be whether or not Zimmerman’s injuries were inflicted by Trayvon. Zimmerman’s claims that such is the case, is (a) uncorroborated (i.e. no one witnessed what Zimmerman claims happened; the EMTs cannot testify as to how Zimmerman sustained his injuries) and (b) ruled out by forensic evidence: there are no traces of Zimmerman’s DNA on Trayvon’s hand, fingernail scraping, the sleeves of his sweatshirt, the sleeves of his hoodie, etc.
One could, as such, eloquently make the case that the ‘fight’ described by Zimmerman NEVER took place (with devastating consequences for Zimmerman!). Maybe O’Mara could successfully establish that the (smart) rain SELECTIVELY washed off Zimmerman’s DNA from Trayvon’s fingernail scrapings, the cuffs/sleeves of his clothing, while leaving non-Zimmerman-DNA intact. Any ideas on how O’Mara could succeed in that endeavor?
I have no idea, except to say, it has to be a whole lot easier than proving TM was able to skip at 16 mph. I’d suggest prayer, lots and lots of prayers.
Even if those injuries were serious and actually were inflicted by Trayvon it wouldn’t matter because Zimmerman shot him AFTER the injuries were inflicted and when Trayvon was not in a position to inflict further serious injuries on GZ. Self Defense is only a valid legal defense when violence is reasonably necessary to PREVENT imminent death or serious injury, not to RETALIATE for injuries already inflicted, no matter how recent or how serious.
Yes, indeed.
@Dave:
” not to RETALIATE for injuries already inflicted, no matter how recent or how serious.”
Very important.
Thanks.
SearchingMind, you ask how O’Mara could show that the rain selectively washed off Zimmerman’s DNA but not other DNA? Easy. The rain was pure. Zimmerman’s DNA was pure. Non-Zim DNA was tainted and impure, mostly as a result of it being anti-white racist DNA (very common kind of DNA since 75% of Americans have it). Pure DNA is much more soluble in pure rain than impure or tainted (such as thuggy, gangstaesque, assaholic or punish DNA) DNA. Does that answer your question?
You know, Malisha, in universities they teach students that no case is air-tight. Every case has an Achilles-heel somewhere. ‘If thou seek, thou shall find it’. I have been shooting myself in the head trying to find that Achilles-heel – i.e. trying to figure out an alternative reasonable explanation for the absence of Zimmerman’s DNA on Trayvon’s hands, fingernail scraping, the cuffs of his sleeves, etc. if O’Mara cannot provide a reasonable explanation for that absence, would it not be highly irresponsible for him to take this case to trial (with all the severe consequences thereof for Zimmerman)?
I agree it would be foolhardy for O’Mara to go to trial with the idea that his defense would be the affirmative defense of self-defense when clearly his client went WAY WAY out of his way (neither to Target nor to his car nor to wait for the cops nor to agree the neighbor/witness should call 911 nor nor nor nor) to get himself into the position he claims to have been in — which itself is not plausible — to necessitate the use of a gun. But I think the chances of a trial are very small because I still believe (see my past theories) that the prosecution wants to avoid a trial.
It seems to me that the defense was hoping public opinion would turn toward Zimmerman with the barrage of Zimmerman Family Poor Us Appearances but that didn’t happen. Osterman’s book hurt rather than helped. I can’t really “handicap” this race right now but I still believe we’ll see a plea deal unless George flies the coop.
George has done far too much talking to start relying on a “diminished capacity defense” at this point. People may believe he is crazy (as per the “God’s Plan” reference on Hannity) but he is not going to fit into any legal definition of “not guilty by reason of mental defect.” So I don’t know what we will see in Act III.
Standing by…
As Donald Rumsfeld would say: “You go to trial with the case you have, not with the case you wish you had!”
He can still state his claims that GZ was in fear of his life, from the weaponless hands of TM, even though they had no dna on them. He can hope that the SP forgets to mention this fact, or that if they present it, they’ll do it so poorly, that they will not be believed.
To that end, he might preface the SP’s offer with a statement to the effect that the prosecution is capable of lying. Thereby hoping to cast insurmountable levels of suspicion upon the prosecutor. LOL
However, it was the police that allowed Zimmerman to go to the washroom to wash up before samples, etc. were taken. OMara could say that there was evidence but the police botched it up with sloppy evidence-gathering.
LOL I dont think it will help Zimmerman to claim he “washed away evidence”
I think the Achilles’ heel is found around the back part of the foot of the HERO, SearchingMind. If you look at LLMPapa’s video found at:
you will see the boot that covers his Achilles’ heel. See, Achilles’ problem was that he had too much hubris. He thought he was invulnerable. That boot in the video — grass-stained and wet toe, perfectly clean heel. George was not on his back in the wet grass having his head slammed, being sat on by a murderous thug. His TOES got grass-stained. He was MOUNTED on top of someone ELSE. Unless he had a girlfriend back there in the grass before shooting Trayvon Martin, I think he was on top of Trayvon, and his heels are giving him the lie.
That’s an excellent point.
Correction: thuggy, gangstaesque, assaholic or punKish DNA –
Grey Winter Sky, you say, “What this amounts to is legalizing execution.” Execution is already legal; what this will do is to legalize execution of anybody, without a trial, and without any charges being drawn or any laws being cited or allegedly violated.
This is a bad movie where the “good guys” go out and shoot up the “bad guys” and then console each other, blow the gunpowder off the tips of their fancy side-arms, look serious and philosophical for a few seconds, and wend their weary way home to a presumably idyllic and moral well decorated property in the heartland while the sound track reminds us that we are Americans and this is freedom, but that it comes at a price.
SearchingM, Professor Leatherman, jm, my guess about the conduct of the Florida court was based on a small sample taken from courts in the following states: Oregon, California, New Mexico, Texas, Arizona, Michigan, Wisconsin, Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana, Florida, Georgia, Virginia (X6!), Maryland, Delaware (X2 for Delaware!), New Jersey, New York (in New York, multiple times but who’s counting), Kentucky, DC and Vermont. And except for Virginia and New York, it was only in one or two counties that I saw it in operation. In New York I had the bizarre experience of seeing a Republican judge and a Democratic judge get together and bend every effort to keep one Republican lawyer and one Democratic lawyer (unrelated cases and two separate counties!) from sustaining any negative consequences from open, proven corruption! It was a shocker — looked like a made-for-TV movie! In the end, they couldn’t save one of the two but the other one they did save and he went on to become a judge of the Supreme Court (which is the name of the trial court level in NY) of NY in Westchester County! BtW, the lawyer they could NOT save worked a plea deal that he would emigrate from the US, never practice law again, and plead out to one felony out of maybe 16 charged. Several years later he returned to the US and is now practicing law in Rockland County, NY. The stuff is just shocking.
I don’t know whether to be glad it doesn’t happen in Washington State or not, because when a lawyer does get targeted and sacrificed, it is usually a good lawyer who has been doing something the court system discourages, such as whistle-blowing. That happened to a lawyer in California (Richard Fine) when he discovered and revealed a “bribe fund” maintained by the judges using the taxpayer identification number of the County of Los Angeles!
So it’s hard to keep track of all the ways this can, does, and does not operate. I would say in general that “the more powerful win” is the only standardized rule I could ever discern.
PS: The most ruthless are always the most powerful.
Fed-Up Taxpayer, Thank you for your kind words!
I’m working on two books now. I did write one non-fiction book but won’t put the reference up here yet (subject was child abuse cases in the courts). I’ll probably be using the pen name “Malisha Garcia” and I’ll let you know when and if others get published.
Meanwhile, thank you for your kind words. I’m having my son open a web-page for me so I can post a play I wrote for school kids about the Dred Scott family and their lives during the litigation in the mid-19th Century in St. Louis. When the page is up I’ll let you know.
I just thought of another hole in Zimmerman’s story. He says he was looking for an address (or street name) and then going back to his truck. OK, let’s say that’s true, arguendo. Then we have to presume that he would keep the cell phone in his hand until he had discovered the address or street sign, because, as he points out, he has a bad memory. So he would never have put the cell phone in his pocket (or the “wrong pocket”) while he was finding the street sign or address; he would have kept it in his hand so he could call in to NEN and fulfill their request that he give them an address.
Putting his cell phone away was done because he had no intention of calling the NEN back; he needed his hand free for his gun. No texting while killing.
Great point Malisha.
If GZ thought the dispatcher needed an address (?!) to establish where a running Trayvon was, why didn’t he just stay on the phone with the dispatcher while he “looked for an address” instead of hanging up?
I can only hope someone from prosecution team is watching Professor Leatherman’s blog for all the ideas posters have come up with to convict GZ on murder 2 charges.
I also hope GZ reads this blog so he knows there are a lot of people who see through his flimsy lies and he is going to prison
That’s logical, but remember — GZ told Serino and Singleton that when the dispatcher said “We don’t need you to do that” that he was standing on RVC — already having gone in the direction that he saw Trayvon take.
Actually he had his cell phone out and was talking to NEN while he was on RVC, he only put the phone away, after he started walking back towards his truck AND asking them to call him, so he could tell them where he was. Meaning that even if he had gotten an address, he wasn’t about to give it to them, thus the trip to RVC was for no reason at all.
That’s another problems he’s going to have, explaining why he made a trip without a reason, at a time when the only reason that can be seen as available, is that he was hunting, but doesn’t want to admit it.
It’s just one more thing that makes him appear to be a liar, while there are other things that prove he is a liar. Not good!
It’s like this “….have them call me…..” ‘cuz I’ll still be on the hunt”
Zimmerman said Trayvon put his hands in his waistband. Look at the 7-11 video. His waist band is very low. He had trouble putting his hands in his pockets. His hoodie is very long. Rather than look thuggish, Trayvon would have looked more than awkward pulling his hoodie up, pulling up his pants, and trying to look scary!.
LOL grahase. Picture Trayvon pulling his hoodie up to expose his hand at his waistband trying to scare GZ and then this tall lanky kid skipping away. Pure fiction coming from Zimmerman and his supporters and family aren’t smart enough to see it.
Excellent point about the phone.
I am troubled by this: At the 16:15 minute mark in the Hannity interview (below) GZ says that Trayvon was aware that GZ was in contact with the police. Can someone please explain? Thanks!
http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A0S00Mm4GmtQBkEAREr7w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTBrc3VyamVwBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQD?p=youtube+george+zimmerman+hannity&vid=3BA2E04FAC0DF580015F3BA2E04FAC0DF580015F&l=&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts1.mm.bing.net%2Fvideos%2Fthumbnail.aspx%3Fq%3D4692999826833424%26id%3De5e669756d18170b9bbc8b57236b5409%26bid%3DXwGA9Q2sT%252bCiOw%26bn%3DLargeThumb%26url%3Dhttp%253a%252f%252fwww.youtube.com%252fwatch%253fv%253dD9sQsk0rdRA&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DD9sQsk0rdRA&tit=George+Zimmerman+Hannity+Interview+Full&c=5&sigr=11aigve24&&tt=b
The first thing to note is that Zimmerman says the investigators told him that. What makes that illogical is that the investigators would have no way of knowing that unless Trayvon also called the police and they told him that. If that were the case, then Trayvon would have called in that he was being followed by a creepy guy.
Another thing about “Zimmerman says what someone else says” is that Trayvon would only be able to hear Zimmerman after he got out of his truck. If Trayvon overheard any of it, it would have been from the point of “He ran.Towards the back entrance. I don’t want to give it all out. I don’t know where this kid is. If you tell them to come in the front gate ….Yeah. That’s fine.”
From Trayvon’s standpoint, GZ could have been talking to his gang members to come and hurt, rob or kill Trayvon.
What’s more is that the concept of what GZ says contradicts his version that Trayvon asked “Do you have a problem?” Anyone thinking that the police is arriving would not ask the person calling the cops if they have a problem and certainly, would not engage in physical combat knowing that the person had called the police or their gang members.
Witnesses have described some kind of verbal exchange between them. It is possible that GZ simply told him. Of course there is little room for that in GZ’s narrative where he was punched down out of nowhere, but taking that entirely literally is hopeless anyway.
There is also the possibility that he made it up. At some points in his story I get the impression that he invented his version retroactively and that it has a specific weakness. He tailors it to what he knows and wants to argue now and loses sight of the participants’ knowledge and motivations at the time. Because of that I don’t think he would be a very good novelist. It’s almost as if he suffered from a severe lack of empathy…
here is a transcript of that inteview and video clips
http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2012/07/18/exclusive-george-zimmerman-breaks-silence-hannity
sorry *interview*
“At the 16:15 minute mark in the Hannity interview GZ says that Trayvon was aware that GZ was in contact with the police.”
Can’t explain this but it is something I missed because I can’t stand Zimmerman or Hannity enough to study the interview.
How would Trayvon be aware that GZ was talking to the police and how did the investigators know he was aware GZ was talking to the police. Unless of course Trayvon called 911 and they told him the police were already on the way.
If that Trayvon was aware of police arrival, wouldn’t that deter him from trying to “kill” GZ by smothering/crashing his head into concrete with all those witnesses and the arrival of the police? What would the motive be for Trayvon to kill a stranger? Even if police were coming, Trayvon had nothing to hide, no record, no drugs, no contraband, no weapons.
It was interesting, Operacarla, I noticed that quite a while back and commented on it over at the Turley blog I believe. George is explaining to Hannity that he was screaming, screaming, screaming and Hannity volunteers, “I believe the police said you screamed 14 times is that correct?” and George says yes, and nods solemnly. Then he goes on to explain that Trayvon put his hand over George’s mouth to silence him, and adds that “from what the investigators told me,” Trayvon Martin “knew I was talking to the police, and…” whereupon he speculates that the police were already “there” and could not FIND GEORGE so George was screaming to alert them as to his location so he could be rescued, but here was Trayvon putting his hand over George’s mouth and telling him to “shut up M*therf*cker” so the police would continue to be confused about where to locate the thug beating up the good guy.
George, therefore, alleges that the investigators told HIM that Trayvon KNEW that GEORGE had been speaking with the police.
Um…how?
See, in George’s fantasy world, all the evil motivations of his enemies are easily discernible by him and his co-good-guys, such as those cops who believe his stories. So some “investigators” not only knew what Trayvon “knew” before he was dead, but they told George what Trayvon “knew” before he was dead. George himself “knew” that Trayvon was not afraid of him, remember? He was skipping away unafraid, not running in fear.
The only thing that keeps a person like George from recreating the entire history of the world (or, in microcosm, the entire history of one event in the world) is the willingness of others to share his wild imaginings. Some “little heroes” like Idi Amin can get quite a few people to share their wild imaginings with them. Others can get fewer. George seems to have gotten 25% of Americans to at least PRETEND they share his. But they belief on the force of belief alone, and when you ask for a logical underpinning for any part of the fantasy or for its whole, all there is is the old standard: WTF?
There is not a single recorded interview in evidence yet in which any police officer or “investigator” tells George that Trayvon Martin KNEW that George was speaking with the police.
Malisha says: “There is not a single recorded interview in evidence yet in which any police officer or “investigator” tells George that Trayvon Martin KNEW that George was speaking with the police.”
Even if there is no recorded interview, is there a chance this statement can be used against him in court to damage his credibility further? How many investigators on the scene would admit to telling GZ that they read the dead teen’s mind and that they told GZ Trayvon knew GZ was in touch with the police?
How in the world do people support this looney liar including his family. Aren’t they paying attention to the crazy things he says and does?
The statement can certainly be used against him if O’Mara puts him on the stand to testify on his own behalf. If he names an “investigator” who told him that, the prosecution can certainly put that “investigator” on the stand to confirm or deny. It would be one more lie that George was caught in.
Malisha says: “The statement can certainly be used against him if O’Mara puts him on the stand to testify on his own behalf.”
Is there anyway that part of the Hannity interview plus the part where he changed his story from Trayvon running to skipping during the interview vs what he said on the NEN call can be introduced without George taking the stand to damage his credibility?
I am by no means a legal professional so I don’t know boundaries within a court trial, but I remember in the Casey Anthony case her video prison visits and phone calls were introduced by prosecution even though she didn’t take the stand.
Wait, wait, I think I have something now. George tells Hannity, “because the investigators told me that he knew I was talking to the police…”
“[T]he investigator” was OSTERMAN! After they get to Osterman’s that night once the police let Zim go, they go over what the story will be for the next day because Osterman is advising George to ask for a VSA test. They go over little details without much real intelligence; neither one of them could make it through an audition for “Law & Order” by the way. So Osterman suggests, “He had to kill you before the police arrived so you wouldn’t live to tell them what happened.” Mind you, as of that night, they did not yet know who Trayvon Martin WAS so George’s wild paranoid ideas were still the dominant story. So George asks, “how did the suspect know I had called the police?” and Osterman says, “He saw you call them when he circled the car.”
Q.E.D.
Malisha: Osterman says “He saw you call them when he circled the car.”
I know this isn’t what really happened and don’t know if this is in evidence but didn’t GZ’s vehicle have tinted windows? Did GZ have his windows down on a rainy night. Didn’t he at one point say he was afraid of Trayvon before he changed his story?
Hard to keep up with this bizarre changing story and the latest lies.
Actually, if I recall correctly, there is a version that has TM walking over to GZ’s truck, GZ rolls down the window and when TM ask “why are you following me?” GZ responds that he isn’t following TM, then rolls up the window and TM walks away. I remember that version because it was yet another opportunity for GZ to identify himself and he still refuses to do so. Leaving a hostile situation in place to fester and continue to grow more fearsome.
LOL Lonnie – so many versions it is hard to keep up. This one is new to me. It makes my brain hurt to think there are people who believe all these different versions fabricated by GZ, defend him, malign Trayvon and send money to the Zimmerman clan.
At the next hearing the SP will ask the judge to increase the allowed assignment numbers, to allow for the inclusion of these additional versions that are being created faster than the clerks can record them. The defenses new strategy will be to increase the production of versions, beyond the capacity of the state of Florida to deal with, forcing everyone to simply give up!
I think the prosecution has to just present its case according to what the evidence says happened and the only self-defense it can provide is that of Trayvon against the weird guy who was following him.
There isn’t much the defense can do to counter this unless Zimmerman does take the stand. There is no way at this point to predict which of his stories he will present or even if he’ll pull a new one out of his hat or wherever. Then the prosecution has to be nimble and quick to pull Zimmerman’s previous statements that contradict the one he presents. Hope they have a good index system.
Except there is a rumor that Trayvon called or tried to call 911 before he died.
I mean before he was shot.
ABC said the reporter “misspoke” but did explain what the call was and why the recording of the call was given to the FBI to enhance.
http://blackbutterfly7.wordpress.com/2012/09/19/did-trayvon-martin-call-911/
If Trayvon did call and get through to 911 that night, and did get a chance to say, “A guy is following me,” he would have tried to stay on the line when George met up with him. George could have slapped the phone out of his hand, of course. But just say that he did manage to complete the call AFTER their first meet-up (DeeDee hears, “Why are you following me?”) and after his having temporarily evaded George. I think Chief Bill Lee would have had a big incentive to make sure that particular call did not get recorded, and then, of course, Trayvon Martin’s cell phone could conveniently lose all battery power for a few days…
Rachael, The rumor was false. Trayvon and George were both heard on the 911 call from one of the witnesses, the call with the terrible screams. If you listen closely to that call, you can hear Zimmerman say “f…”. The rest of what he says is not distinguishable except maybe with special equipment that can cut out the other voices. Since it’s at the same time as the screams for help, it’s pretty clear that the screams are Trayvon’s. So Trayvon didn’t make a call to 911 but he was heard in the background on someone else’s call.
Serino asked Zimmerman how close Trayvon got to his vehicle and circled it. Zimmerman was asked if his windows were closed and he answered in the affirmative. A car length away, windows rolled up, rainy and windy — Yeah, Trayvon could hear Zimmerman on the phone and knew he was talking to police. Right. Try again.
Naw, nobody told him Trayvon knew he (George) had called the police. And it would HURT George’s case, not help it, if he were to manage to give the impression that Trayvon “knew” George had called the police. Because IF Trayvon “knew” George had called the police already, he wouldn’t have attacked him and gotten into a fisticuffs with him while expecting the police to arrive and arrest him; he would have “skipped away” again!
This is another example of George saying any old damn stupid thing that comes into his addled self-referential perverted mind. He explains each tiny segment of the story as if that segment stands on its own, imagining that when the segments are explained singly, nobody has reason to doubt his explanations, and then when they are all strung together, they must inexorably show that he is innocent. Here’s how it works:
George had every right to carry a concealed weapon;
George had every right to be suspicious;
George had every right to get out of his truck;
George had every right to walk down the street looking for addresses;
George had every right to head back to his truck;
George had every right to try to get his cell phone out to call 911;
George had every right to yell HELP HELP HELP 14 times.
None of this is illegal.
George had every right to defend himself from a vicious unprovoked deadly attack that would otherwise have resulted in his death or great bodily harm, administered to him by an unafraid, skipping, hiding, re-emerging, drugged up, larcenous, disobedient, racist gangsta-wannabe teen-ager who assured him (George, who was still well within his rights) that he was about to kill him.
Now if you try to hook the individual “time-tiles” of righteous, legal actions together into a sentence, and you say, “You got out of your vehicle to follow and confront an unarmed teen whom you frightened and killed,” he will say that you got it all wrong because you’re just attributing bad behavior to him when none existed.
Throwing out an idea. Some people talk about the Anthony case as somewhat of a comparison about juries in Florida to what may happen in the Zimmerman case.
As I’ve shared previously, I’m following the John Goodman case on Trutv for the first time, not knowing what happened in real-time. Well, the jury in the Goodman case found him guilty of vehicular manslaughter and failure to render aid.
Also, I’ve taken some interest in the Orr and Smithey cases in Florida. Both defendants have been denied immunity.
A difference that I see, and what makes the jury’s decision in the Anthony case unfair in comparing to the possibilities in Zimmerman’s case, is that in the Anthony case, no one admitted to killing Anthony’s child.
Here, as in the Goodman case, GZ admitted that he killed Trayvon Martin. Goodman’s defense was that he was not drunk until after the accident; his car malfunctioned; he did not see what happened to the car that he hit; his cell phone was not working, requiring that he walk to find a place with a phone. None of that helped him at trial. He admitted to hitting the vehicle and leaving the scene.
In the Goodman case, a question was asked about the defense not being able to provide DNA proving that Goodman drank from liquor bottles AFTER the accident. The answer was that it was up to the State to prove that Goodman did not — not that he did.
Likewise, in GZ’s case, there is no proof for how he required his injuries others than his word. Forensics support that Trayvon did not inflict those injuries on GZ. GZ failed to give the police information to support his story, such as “Hey. My head was beaten right there on the sidewalk. Please get the blood or DNA evidence.” And/or, “That guy was punching me all over my face and on my nose. Do you think you can get DNA evidence before cleaning me up?”
IOWs, GZ will tell his version(s) of things but in the end, he lacks evidence to support it while admitting that he killed Trayvon. The jury therefore, only has to follow instructions to decide whether the State proves 2nd degree murder or an alternative lesser defense. The State does not have to prove self-defense — that is up to O’Mara. Based on evidence, can he do it? John Goodman was represented by Attorney Roy Black who is said to be among the best criminal defense attorneys in the State of Florida. He attempted many angles but in the end, there was still a young man who drowned after Goodman pushed his car into a canal and walked away.
Any thoughts?
I think Zimmerman is going to be unable to convince either judge (at a SYG hearing) OR jury (at a trial) that he shot Trayvon Martin in self-defense. Remember, HE has said:
1 – That he was not afraid of Trayvon when Trayvon “circled the car” even though he saw Trayvon “put his hand in his waistband”;
2 – “These a55holes, they always get away”;
3 – That when Trayvon asked him what his problem was, he answered, “I don’t have a problem” or “I don’t have a problem, man”;
4 – That he got his gun out and then AIMED and made sure he would not shoot his other hand; and
5 – That AFTER shooting Trayvon Martin he “lunged” on top of him and spread his hands out.
His story is, therefore, full of holes by his own words. IF he was shooting because he feared for his life, he would NOT have put his gun back into his holster and then “lunged” on the assailant. Think of it! The guy was already so strong and sneaky that he hid, emerged from the darkness, spoke, and then overpowered and nearly killed George. Once George had his gun out, if he were really afraid for his life, he would have KEPT the gun aimed at Trayvon (who could have been faking dead to get George to try to fight him again, so he could finish George OFF) and said, “THE POLICE ARE ON THEIR WAY; DON’T MOVE OR I’LL SHOOT!”
George’s story will not fly and he will not get off by that method.
Malisha, I agree. In watching Florida’s legal system and how jurors decide cases, I think it’s a diversion to try and compare the jury in the Anthony case to what the facts and what the jury has to decide in the Zimmerman case. I guess that ultimately, that is what I was getting at.
The more I look at it, the more I’m inclined to believe that GZ will take a plea deal.
“The more I look at it, the more I’m inclined to believe that GZ will take a plea deal.”
Do you think the state will offer a plea deal with such a strong case? If so, what type of plea deal do you think will be offered?
Aggravated assault for firing a gun in a residential area; 20 yrs statutory. It’s better than life and does not admit to committing murder.
Xena: “Aggravated assault for firing a gun in a residential area; 20 yrs statutory. It’s better than life and does not admit to committing murder.”
I personally want GZ to have to admit to murder. I am not a resident of Florida nor am I a minority so I don’t have that much invested in the outcome except I despise this mentally unbalanced sociopath killer and don’t want him to get off without admitting what he did and his lies exposed for everyone to see, especially his family and supporters.
Do you think the state can carry this plea off without riots?
In your opinion would the plea be so the state can hide the corruption that occurred in this case?
@jm.
But he already admitted that he killed. Such a plea bargain doesn’t provide his innocence, it simply does find him guilty of murder.
IMO, the fear of race riots is just that — a fear tactic. Believe me JM, race riots serve a benefit to White business and property owners in communities where Blacks are a majority of the population.
No. Not at all. The failure of the SPD was exposed with the investigation findings resulting in GZ’s arrest. Wolfinger and Lee are gone. Serino is demoted. The rest are postured as simply not knowing how to handle a homicide investigation.
20 years? You KNOW Zimmerman won’t go for it. In fact, it will be GZ’s pride that will prevent him from taking ANY deal; that and his own massive stupidity no to realize that he WILL get the maximum when this case goes go trial.
________________________________
Xena~ I don’t believe a plea deal will be offered. The prosecution’s case is very strong. From what I’ve observed, getting a WIN in their column on a high profile case would be VERY GOOD for the prosecuting team. Zimmerman will get every year permitted by Florida law.
________________________________
I was under the impression that the defense still has to prove by preponderance of evidence, even at trial?
I mean, that is quite a infringement of Trayvon’s rights for Zimmerman not to have to prove anything when he is claiming assault from Trayvon
You said,
Your impression is mistaken.
Slightly off topic, but didn’t MOM give press conference he was not going to pursue SYG a month or so ago after previously saying he was going to.. Is MOM now going back to SYG hearing? I thought I read GZ couldn’t qualify/win SYG and also in SYG he needed to take the stand which would be an awful idea.
This is so confusing.
O’Mara announced he was not going to claim SYG. Instead, he was going to claim traditional self-defense and request a hearing under the SYG statute, which the statute authorizes. The procedure would be the same as in a SYG immunity hearing.
Thank you Professor. Will it be mandatory for GZ to take the stand in this hearing?
No, because he has a Fifth Amendment right to remain silent and he cannot be compelled to testify against himself. No presumption can be drawn, if he decides not to testify.
Of course, he can testify, should he decide to do so.
However, if he does, he must submit to cross examination or his testimony will be stricken and the jury would be instructed to disregard it.
I am so sorry for asking what may be stupid questions, but how does GZ establish he was in fear for his life in this hearing without testifying?
Also in this hearing is it up to the judge to decide if this is a self-defense killing and if he decides against GZ’s claim of self-defense, this will go to trial before a judge and jury for 2nd degree murder – unless there is a plea bargain?
If the judge decides in favor of GZ at the hearing, he walks without even civil liability?
I am so sorry for asking what may be stupid questions, but how does GZ establish he was in fear for his life in this hearing without testifying?
ANSWER: No need to apologize. For the reason you just stated, GZ really has to testify, but it if he does, he will likely be destroyed on cross examination by BDLR. He’s in a classic damned-if-he-does-damned-if-he-doesn’t situation.
Also in this hearing is it up to the judge to decide if this is a self-defense killing and if he decides against GZ’s claim of self-defense, this will go to trial before a judge and jury for 2nd degree murder – unless there is a plea bargain?
ANSWER: Yes, it’s up to the judge, and yes the case will go to jury trial, if he loses, unless there is a plea bargain.
If the judge decides in favor of GZ at the hearing, he walks without even civil liability?
ANSWER: Yes.
Yes, but like most people, you’re putting the cart in front of the horse!
If GZ simply sits in his chair and rests upon his plea of not guilty, he will have entered no evidence or claim that anything specific happened, that absolves him of guilt. In other words he’s making a claim that he’s not guilty as charged, with no explanation as to why that might be.
Next the prosecutor will introduce it’s evidence that he is guilty of murder in the 2nd degree. If that evidence is sufficient to support the charge, beyond a reasonable doubt, which it will if it goes unchallenged, GZ is toast! So, obviously GZ will need to challenge that evidence. And this is where it gets really sticky for the defense.
The effort to controvert the prosecutors offers, must not open doors that will let in the deluge of differing versions of the defendants own claims. Because, in the course of trying to sort through them, it will become apparent that the defendant is a liar. Once that happens, the defense will lose it’s ability to further challenge any evidence with mere claims. It will be required to produce evidence or forgo making claims it cannot prove or corroborate. Being forced to use evidence will only further expose even more lies the defendant has told, so that’s no help at all.
So, the defense has to seek refuge in their last resort, the character of their client. Unfortunately, they dare not go into the character of their client, as a way to compromise the prosecutions offers. They can’t even say that George is a good guy who would not do such a terrible thing, because that would open the doors to a catastrophic flood of negative character material, that the biblical flood would pale in comparison to Sans Noah and his Ark, GZ would have no refuge at all.
This is why the expect jury selection to take longer than the trial. As far as the defense is concerned, everything hinges on jury selection, if they can get a neo nazi, a white supremacist, other crazy of some odd stripe on the jury they may be home free. But it’s still dicey because GZ may have even offended many of the worlds most insane people already. If he has to take the stand himself, it’s doubtful he could even keep the Imperial Wizard of the KKK in his corner without issuing too great an offensive insult to his intelligence, that even he would have to recoil.
In Florida we have 10 20 life. 10 yrs if you pull your gun on someone 20 yrs if you discharge your gun. life if a person is hit they don’t have to die if this is done durning a commission of a crime which George was indeed doing he is toast in Florida he will have to serve at least 25 yrs the judge have no control over that minimum sentence. I say to George give your soul over to The Lord now because your azz will soon belong to the state of Florida.
You said,
Apples to oranges problem???????
Roy Black has an excellent reputation, but like I said in an earlier post regarding the 13 Commandments of criminal defense work: Thou canst not make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. Hence, the result in the Goodman case.
O’Mara has a similar problem; namely, his client admitted to shooting to death a 17-year-old kid armed with a bag of Skittles and a can of iced tea, a kid who was minding his own business talking to his girlfriend.
Identity of the shooter is not in issue. The issue is whether Zimmerman shot Martin in self-defense.
Although the problems are similar, they are not the same.
At the trial, the State has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not shoot Martin in self-defense. The defense does not have to prove self-defense.
However, at the immunity hearing, the defense will have to prove self-defense by a preponderance of the evidence in order to prevail. The case is over, if it succeeds. Should the defense lose, the case goes to trial and the burden of proof switches to the prosecution to disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt.
Disproving self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt can be difficult.
I believe the prosecution has more than enough evidence to do it, evidence that for the most part comes out of Zimmerman’s mouth.
Yes, in a kinda, sorta way as to what the jury might see. It ties into the following;
A juror in the Goodman trial was interviewed. According to him, the defense did not prove that Goodman became drunk after the accident. Also, Goodman took the stand in his own defense, and the jury did not find him credible.
So it seems as though that jury only had the State’s evidence, and they decided based on that evidence. I remember the blog “Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence” and tried keeping that in mind as I listened to the juror’s interview.
So we can assume the Zidiot won’t sue NBC now??
There’s no accounting for what any Zidiots will do. They might sue ABC, CBS, NBC, the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post and the NAACP for “malicious wounding of tender feelings” because all these nefarious organizations made Shelli cry.
jm, I believe all prior statements can be used if they are neither privileged nor irrelevant. Jailhouse snitches testify against defendants all the time while the defendants do not take the stand. But if Zimmerman doesn’t take the stand, there won’t be an opportunity to argue self-defense so all those statements will not be very useful or relevant. If, on the other hand, George wants to use “self-defense” as a defense and therefore DOES testify, any prior statement he made having anything to do with the case will be fair game IMHO.
I just thought these GZ statements may lead to a lack of credibility for the jury to see first-hand.
Every time I see the Hannity interview I want to personally put that smarmy killer in jail. Funny thing, I initially thought Hannity interview was meant to help GZ but that interview buried him as far as any credibility he may have had previously. What were they thinking? Maybe MOM doesn’t like GZ any more than I do and he set his client up?
The Hannity interview was actually intended to draw more people to support GZ by way of donating money. It was a PR plan that included re-launching his website and FB page. After he tried and failed to bully Barbara Walters, he was apparently too ashamed to try another media source and no one was knocking down his door to get an interview with him.
jm~ the worse thing that interview did was establish “depraved mind” for GZ. Until he said that obscene “It was God’s plan”, I didn’t think the prosecution could make Murder 2 stick. BUT couple God’s plan with NO REGRET, and BOOM! You get depraved mind and Murder 2. Nope, Hannity and MOM did NOT do GZ any favors (for which I am grateful BTW).
________________________________
jm, I believe the state WANTS a plea deal because a trial will allow so much information out that it will become undeniable that the SPD and Wolfinger committed crimes in office on 2/26/2012 and thereafter. The state does not want that to happen. My belief is that the real tension now is that the state wants substantial prison time and O’Mara is trying to shave that down. But remember, if there is a plea deal like “two hours probation for the misdemeanor of terroristic threatening” the state fears an out and out RIOT; someone’s gonna tear down their courthouse and rightly so.
I think the news, the back and forth, the hiding this and revealing that, the silence from DOJ, the fuss and bluster, the subpoenas and innuendo, the side issues taking center stage and the circus atmosphere (minus the really good popcorn, unfortunately) and the smell of the elephant in the ROOM all are part of the effort by BOTH sides to get this case into a posture where they can plead it out without either side going into open rebellion.
The problem for them is that too much REAL information has been made public. Wolfinger, Lee, Smith, Hannity, Dershowitz, etc. — everybody has gone too far and the common wisdom may not forgive and forget every outrage. We shall see. Americans have tolerated outrage for so long maybe Zim will skate by with an acceptably light sentence — one that O’Mara can plead him out to.
Another possibility is that they go whole-hog into a giant fraud. I’m thinking on that one because I don’t put it past anyone, really.
Politicians and corrupt cops have been brought down before. Lee has already been sacrificed; I don’t see any issue with going after Wolfinger since he has already retired and can’t help/hurt anyone. SPD is just a small town corrupt good old boy system; the Govenor will actually GAIN kudos and respectability by shutting them down. It’s not like those bozos couldn’t be readily replaced by OTHER good old boys. I can only hope I am right on this one. I want this case to go to trial! I WANT the Treehouse nutjobs to SEE how justice gets done! AND I want to see Zimmerman’s face when the GUILTY verdict is read loud and clear for all to hear!
________________________________
“After he tried and failed to bully Barbara Walters, he was apparently too ashamed to try another media source and no one was knocking down his door to get an interview with him.”
Actually, George don’t shame easy.
I’ll bet he was not too ashamed to try other media sources; I’m betting he couldn’t get anyone else to follow Hannity, especially after the Walters fiasco.
@Malisha. George does shame easily, which is why he is so messed up in the head. Stubbornness is often rooted in shame because it doesn’t want to admit that it is wrong, or off-target so to speak. Shame is usually accompanied with fear and even then, fear of consequences.
Xena says: “George does shame easily, which is why he is so messed up in the head. Stubbornness is often rooted in shame because it doesn’t want to admit that it is wrong, or off-target so to speak. Shame is usually accompanied with fear and even then, fear of consequences.”
Do you think GZ is ashamed at his performance on Hannity? When I saw him smirk on camera, I could not believe my eyes. I also think it is a shameless person who can brazenly change his story multiple times and not even seem embarrassed.
Not to be adversarial but I think GZ is a sociopath and I don’t think these people are capable of shame.
Of course I am not a professional and my opinions are based on google searches regarding sociopath personality disorders but from what I have seen, I don’t think shame is even part of GZ or his family’s vocabulary.
@JM.
He was proud of his Hannity interview, but it did not get the result he really wanted, was an increase in financial donations.
My opinion is based on spiritual belief, founded on the first emotions/actions of Adam and Eve after they disobeyed God. IMO, all personality disorders are rooted in shame and fear. For instance, abandonment issues not dealt with in children can lead to anti-social behavior, dishonesty, and control issues.
Many psychologists go back into the childhood of clients in effort to find what kicked off their problems. A problem with mind-sciences however, is that it usually gives an excuse that can be construed as blaming someone else before it progresses to the client taking responsibility and control over their own behavior.
Xena says: “IMO, all personality disorders are rooted in shame and fear.”
Not sure about this theory, but again I am not a professional, just googling to find out what makes people like the Zimmermans tick.
So if GZ’s personality disorder is based on shame and fear, caused by his parents (?), can you hold the parents responsible because they may have personality disorders because they were raised with shame and fear. It seems a domino effect, Having said that, the whole Zimmerman family seems to have no shame or fear.
This is too deep for me to delve into but I am guessing a lot of people in prison have personality disorders based on shame and fear as a child. Does that excuse their criminal behavior?
Again, I do not mean to be adversarial but just curious how GZ can brazen out lies (i.e. skipping Trayvon vs running Trayvon) and not appear to be ashamed (remorseful) for what they have said or done.
@JM.
It is. Hurting people hurt others.
Shame and remorse are not the same. Shame is actually to cover. Remorse is regret, repentance.
I’m toying with this idea like a raccoon who has a bit of food and is turning it over in his little hands. I’ll get back to you later with what I have come up with — unless I get really hungry and gobble up the little chunk of food.
I’ve been thinking about my comment, “He don’t shame easy,” applied to George Zimmerman.
It occurs to me that George probably had to defend himself constantly as a child, against being shamed, against being blamed, and against being punished. He told one of the interviewers about an incident where he thought he was doing his family a big favor by bringing home free over-the-counter pharmaceuticals so he went to the pharmacist and filled up a bag with all the free things and brought them home (his father had some kind of military health care coverage that allowed this apparently). When he displayed his “loot” to his father, he got a lecture about how it was not “free” and how his father had paid (actually, “prepaid”) for all that with his military service. George ended the story with, “And I felt like CRAP!”
Well obviously he shouldn’t have been made to feel like crap for doing something he thought was very generous and kind. But there are all sorts of complex things happening within any family, and in his, probably to the MAX. Yet I think his childhood was burdened with shame and blame. So he grew up a blamer and a person who only feels GOOD when he can put someone else DOWN. So I agree. He shames easily and to compensate, has learned — and perfected — a technique of acquired shamelessness that is a kind of moral leprosy. He has killed the feelings, in himself, that would have been able to make him feel appropriate shame of really shameful behavior. He has pre-justified any behavior he might have, by a simple theorem:
================
If I have done something, then it is exactly right and I have no regrets.
Therefore, if this theorem is true, its contrapositive must be true:
If I have to regret something, then I did not do it.
============
So when he stood over the slain body of Trayvon Martin, he had to come up with this:
“If I have killed him, then it is exactly right and he should have been killed by me.”
And the contrapositive is:
“If having killed him is murder, then I did not commit it.”
===================
He would have to be ashamed to have murdered someone. He cannot be ashamed. He is innocent. Therefore he regrets nothing and it was self-defense. Nothing is George’s fault.
The problem, of course, is how can he ever get parole? He can never feel remorse! He has defended himself completely against it!
Malisha says: “He has killed the feelings in himself, that would have been able to make him feel appropriate shame of really shameful behavior.”
So bottom line, was GZ ever capable of shame and if so at what age did he kill these feelings? He was 8 when he allegedly began molesting his 6-year-old cousin.
Do you think anyone in the Zimmerman family is capable of shame of those who are speaking out, momma and papa Z and RZ Jr.?
To me being without shame is a learned trait from the family that they think they are better than others, more spiritual, more knowledgeable, perhaps more money than average, father is judge, etc.
It is always interesting to get others opinion on what makes GZ who he is today.
Professor, I would appreciate it if you would delete the cone above this.
WOW LLMPapa! Just “WOW”
This brings to mind what Osterman said ShelLIE told him, i.e., that GZ “shot someone else.” Maybe the man on 2/02/12 was suppose to be shot and on 2/26/12, GZ shot “someone else.”
Yikes!
From “Liquid Sky” (edited just a little)
me and my rhythm box
my rhythm box is sweet
never forgets the beat
it never eats
it never sleeps
it only beats
it’s always high
so am I
do you wanna know why?
it is preprogrammed
so what
so what
so what
who of your friends is not?
who of your friends is not?
Vida Loca Theatre masks “Smile now, cry later”
(describes the gangster life). common Hispanic street gang symbol.
Which GZ has tattooed on himself already.
Oh Lord, that is so creepy, it builds and builds and suddenly a weight of true insanity just DROPS on you. For me, it happened when he said, “I gave them what I thought was MY…address?” The cadence, the lilt, the weirdness. “I gave them what I thought was MY…address?”
It’s on the Zimmermans that they never had George’s head properly examined. Whatever all is in there, LOOK OUT! Trayvon was getting the vibes, OK, HE KNEW a crazy creepy guy was after him. Damn, what a nightmare! “I gave them what I thought was MY…address?”
Magnificent piece, LLMPapa. Captures it perfectly.
Thanks for your video!!! ON point!
Prof. L:
As a hypothetical, let’s assume I’m right that ABC has a recording of Benjamin Crump’s interview with DeeDee that not only contains segments of the interview that are not in the recording released in discovery, but also more complete in that segments of the interview that are unintelligible in the discovery recording are intelligible in the ABC recording.
I would guess that if ABC has given a copy of this (assumed) recording to the SAO, then a defense motion to obtain it would be fairly straightforward, and the State would have to comply.
But what are the legal ramifications if ABC has NOT given a copy of this (for now still hypothetical) recording? Can the defense subpoena it? Would ABC, as a powerful and national organization be able to resist a subpoena from the Florida courts? If they were to make some claim about the First Amendment allowing them to keep their work product as well as their sources anonymous, would that carry any weight? Can the State duck any responsibility here by saying, “Well, we gave you what we have. Talk to ABC.”?
That is, one would think the SAO would be as interested as the defense in obtaining a better recording. You’d think the prosecution not only could but should subpoena ABC. But do they have to as a matter of law. If a potentially compelling piece of evidence might exist, can the State simply decide not to ask for it?
And, to continue the hypothetical, let’s assume ABC has given a copy of their recording to Benjamin Crump, but he has not volunteered to pass it on to anyone, and, like ABC, has not made public mention of this better recording’s existence. Would that put him in any potential trouble with the State or with the Bar for withholding evidence? And would the defense be in a better position to extract a better recording (if one does indeed exist) from Mr. Crump than from ABC?
Not meaning to butt in, but the State interviewed DeeDee. I heard the interview and there is nothing wrong with the sound. Chances are that the State will use their interview.
You probably SHOULDN’T butt in when you don’t know what you’re talking about.
We are not taking about DeeDee’s interview with BdlR, but her earlier telephone interview with Ben Crump, when Matt Gutman and a ABC news crew were in the room on Crump’s end. Just as GZ’s credibility sinks with each different version of his story he tells, DeeDee’s credibility will rise if her account is much the same in the two interviews, and fall if it is significantly different. (Crump also covers somewhat different ground than BdlR on a couple matters.) There is no way the substance of the Crump interview is NOT probative one way or the other.
Crump’s recorder actually seems to have been (mistakenly) turned off during key elements of DeeDee statement. If I was a defense attorney I would be finding this just way too co-incidental — (mistakenly, my ass! I would say — if i were on the defense) especially given that ABC had already broadcast clean soundbites of material that isn’t even on the Crump recording. But then, I remember Rosemary Woods.
Of course, I’m not a defense attorney, but a retired teacher of (among other things) media production, and I know how often people think their recording device is on when it’s not (and vice versa) so I’m doubting any sort of intentional shenanigans on Crump’s part caused the gap in his recording. But not only do I think Gutman has a clean recording of the whole thing, but he gave a copy to Crump, and THAT is what Crump used in his press conference.
And, as a side note, either Bernie de la Rionda flunked interviewing class or whoever taught him was stone incompetent, because his encounter with DeeDee is one of the worst attempts at interviewing someone I have ever heard…
P.S. Prof. There’s very rarely any tape involved in audio recording anymore, it mostly going to flash RAM now. I have to keep kicking myself because my mind wants to say “tape” and I have to force myself to say “record” (v.) or “recording” (n.) instead.
@whonoze.
Well, I did butt-in, and you shouldn’t be so rude. I knew what you were talking about but figured you would appreciate that the State has conducted its own interview.
Keep in mind that if DeeDee testifies in court, the State can ask any questions to get information that you think is important that Attorney Crump asked that was not recorded, or that he left out.
“Well, I did butt-in, and you shouldn’t be so rude. I knew what you were talking about but figured you would appreciate that the State has conducted its own interview. ”
Well, I mean to be blunt, not rude — to critique only the post in question, not your contributions to the discussion in general. That said, I might consider it rude that you would think I was unaware of the BdlR interview. But, It wasn’t, right?
That said, your comment about DeeDee’s ability to clarify her remarks in court shows that, no, you have no idea what I’m talking about. If the police videographer had accidentally bumped the camera into pause during the ‘re-enactment’ just after GZ says Trayvon came from behind the bushes, and didn’t get it turned back on until after GZ decribes the gunshot, would you say, ‘That’s OK, you can just ask him what happened in court.”?
@whonoze. Saying “you have no idea what you’re talking about” is RUDE. It’s your personal opinion and cannot be masked as simply being “blunt.” If you want to compete with someone, I’m not that person. It is my attitude and belief that there is no “i” in “team.”
A subpoena in a criminal case takes precedence. The person or corporation on whom the subpoena is served can file a motion to quash the subpoena, if they want to oppose the subpoena by asserting some legal justification for not complying with it. For example, the school district where Trayvon attended middle and high schools have moved to quash the defense subpoena for Trayvon’s school records (Actually, the prosecution may have filed the motion to quash — of course, the State of Florida also represents the public schools). The prosecution is arguing that the evidence is irrelevant, inadmissible and protected by privacy laws. The court will hold a hearing on that motion tomorrow.
The same procedure would be followed if ABC or Crump were to object to turning over a copy of a tape, assuming they had what was requested and objected to turning it over.
I assume the prosecution would turn over a sound-enhanced tape if they have one, as it is their legal duty to do so.
I’m not sure, but if Dee Dee is represented by Crump or Jackson or both and they have a recording of a conversation they had with her, the conversation should be protected by the attorney-client privilege and not be discoverable. This is the only reason that I can think of that would prevent the defense from obtaining a copy of a tape recording and only Dee Dee, her attorney(s) and the person or company they hired to clean-up or enhance the tape could assert the privilege. The person or company they hired to clean up the tape would be protected by the attorney-client work product privilege.
I don’t believe ABC could claim protection from the A-C work product privilege since they are a news organization, so they would likely have to turn it over.
FYI there is no way to clean up the problems or ‘enhance’ the audio quality of the Crump recording to make it legible. There’s just a ton on room echo on everything, and you can’t get rid of that. Which is one of the reasons I’m convinced ABC made a separate simultaneous recording of the interview.
Then they would have to turn it over.
I can see them asking DeeDee 100 questions and coming up with the fact that there were slight differences in what she said at one time, as opposed to another. Then they would say, “OK you can’t object that George changed his story 4X because DeeDee changed hers too.” Of course, that has nothing at all to do with the fact that George killed Trayvon.
But it’s theater.
It’s also a basic false equivalency that BDLR would tear apart in the rebuttal portion of his closing argument.
I think Prof. L. is right, and it would not be wise for the defense to try to inflate any small differences between DeeDee’s statements, or to treat her vernacular speech literally. For example, when she says “a couple minutes later” I don’t think she means a couple minutes, but ‘a moment or two’, which could be 5 seconds or 10 minutes.
That said, there is a point in her interview with BdlR where she essentially offers to perjure herself, to say that Trayvon told her Zimmerman was coming to attack him. (Again BdlR does a horrible job trying to extricate her from this mistake…) So, from the defense POV, I have to wonder if there’s something more than small differences of phrasing on that Crump recording. I would have to suspect (because it my due diligence as a defense council) that Crump and Gutman are hiding the full, clear recording because at some point we have yet to hear DeeDee really sticks her foot in it.
Now, since I hold a graduate degree from a ‘prestigious School of Journalism’ (though I’ve never been a working reporter) I would say that if that were true it would put Matt Gutman in a ethical dilemma. On one hand, you would think he has a responsibility to disclose anything that was said. But as a journalist, he has an obligation to use the material he has gathered in a way that reflects his sense of the GREATER truth. So let’s say he listens to DeeDee, and overall he finds her credible and sympathetic. but then she says something really stupid. She is, after all, just an unsophisticated kid, and not the brightest bulb in the chandelier. Gutman could think: OMG, if I release this, everyone is going to zero-in on this one awful thing, which is not really representative or typical of this interview as a whole, but that and that alone will become the story and this poor kid is going to get unjustly crucified. If I were in that position, I think I would hide the recording as a matter of journalistic practice.
But as a legal matter, especially from the ‘innocent until proven’ standpoint of a defense attorney, I would argue that’s not Gutman’s call to make. Since George Zimmerman is facing the possibility of a lengthy prison term, and DeeDee is on the State’s witness list, EVERYTHING she says is germane and it’s up to a judge and jury to decide whether it is relevant and what weight to give it.
Now, I can’t say I’m 100% positive ABC has that clean recording (I would say it’s highly probable though), and if they do, I can’t say for certain they’re holding it back to hide some potential bombshell. I can think of other reasons they’d do so, from general matters of principle having nothing to do with the specific case, to keeping a deal they made with DeeDee’s parents in order to get access to the interview in the first place.
But wanting to know exactly what DeeDee said to Crump is right up there with wanting to know where and how GZ’s truck was parked in terms of the fact gaps in this case really bug me and I really hope will get answered sooner rather than later. They’re frustrating not because they’re so important. Obviously, how the physical struggle between GZ started and developed is a much more compelling mystery. But we know that only GZ knows the truth of that, while these other smaller things SHOULD be right there. A number of people who are not parties to the case MUST know the answers to each. Still, they remain veiled. Urgghh…
Professor, is it likely that DeeDee would have her own legal representation, or are you simply including this as something that’s unlikely but still possible?
DeeDee’s testimony is only needed to prove that GZ was in fact following TM and that TM was scared and trying to evade GZ. She cannot say what was going on, because she saw nothing. All she can do is tell us what she heard TM say, and about the background sounds on the phone. What makes her story convincing is that she is a “blind” witness who did not know the “lay of the land”, and thus could not effectively fake anything, because she could not know what was possible from what would be impossible.
The next important point is: Sure GZ, like any other victim, gets to change/alter his story, to better reconcile it with recall. The problem with these alterations is, they all come each time it is revealed, that there is evidence against a particular claim in the story. Then it is that claim that gets changed. That’s what makes GZ’s story suspicious.
First there is “jumping out of the bushes”, repeated several different times, then changes “I don’t know”, when he’s shown there are no bushes that his story can work with. The very serious problem with this is, GZ is not talking about some strange place where he has never been before. He is talking about an area where he has been patrolling for many months.
Second, he doesn’t know the name of the street that connects the front gate to the rear gate. Yet, he knows that the rear gate is the one “they always get away” thru. Yet, in many months time, he has never found a use for the name of the street that runs from the front gate to the rear gate? Doesn’t it sound like he’s on drugs?
Third he’s punched in the face and he falls on his back, right there where he is standing. LLMpapa has counted him telling this story no less than 5 times, as soon after the incidents to believe that his memory is fresh. It is only during the reenactment, when he notices the detective looking at where the body was found, that he suddenly changes from “falling down immediately and being mounted then and there”, to “stumbling forward and slapping TM’s hands away”, notably the video catches him looking at the place where the shot was fired and the body was found. He appears to be at a loss as to how to contrive the new story, to get them both there.
Fourth, TM is running away from him, until he realizes that it is not lawful for him to have put TM in fear for his own life. That’s when “running” turns to “skipping away”, which is silly. Skipping is something kids do when they are supremely happy. No one is going to be supremely happy, in the dark, on a rainy night, and after they’ve learned that some strange person is interested in them. It’s just a well known behavioral fact, as well known as; children not laughing at the death of a beloved pet. This particular claimed effect, would have long ago required that TM be placed under strict professional supervision, if true. Since that capacity would have been tied to very strong and very odd anti social behavior that could not be missed.
The point being, GZ’s story line changes are all made, in an effort to accommodate evidence, when it is pointed out that, that evidence refutes the claim he has made, and not that his recall has improved in some way.
So then, his gun is supposedly discovered where he fell close to the tee by TM. He is threatened with the use of it, thus “proving” that TM knew he was armed at that point and time. So, how does it come about that he, an armed man, moves some 40 feet south with TM? Then he wants us to believe that TM began another assault, but this time against a man he knew to be armed?
Is this what MOM is going to submit to the judge as self defense?
Remember, this is the prosecutors evidence! Worse yet, it is obtained from both the scene and from GZ’s own mouth! This is his testimony as to what happened.
He would now have to say that TM took his gun away at the tee, then forced him to walk south, before he could get the gun back. But, then, there are witnesses who can and do refute that, so it’s not possible. Worse yet, even GZ refutes that, because he says he was again on the ground being hit, and that he still had his gun on him. Only a mentally impaired person can possibly believe such a story. Thus GZ is toast!!!
whonoze – it seems you noze – journalist, sound engineer and whonoze what else. All that, and no manners.
Or… Could it be that he’s just ticked off by something he’s been reading elsewhere?
That’s a big trouble I find with the net. People are reading all over the place and may not even have time to drop an attitude, before they arrive at, or are confronted by something that comes from somewhere else.
This happens a lot with email, where you have lots of messages from different list and people from different groups, all listed in your inbox.
You go through your mail, without even reading the headers to see what is coming from where. Instead you try to rely on the subject to identify the speaker(s). If you, for example had Tree house mail mixed in your inbox, you might just be responding to someone else, with the “after taste” of some stupidity that you are wishing you had a better response to.
To avoid this, I use thunderbird, because it allows automated sorting of incoming mail into group folders, so it’s likely you’ll have a better idea of who you’re talking to. And, will be better able to switch gears, when you move to another folder. Of course, nothing always works, so even with this some times things go awry.
As a general impression, I don’t know Whonoze to be routinely “snappy”, so I was shocked to see that message. I thought immediately that something must have been going wrong in his day.
Accidentally pouring vinegar in your morning coffee, instead of milk, can do it.
“The Duval County State Attorney has a message for George Zimmerman’s defense attorney: Zip it.”
“De la Rionda asked Circuit Judge Debra Nelson to issue a gag order, which would silence the defense, prosecutors, law enforcement and any of the lawyers’ employees. If the judge agrees, lawyers and investigators would not be allowed to make any statements outside the courtroom about the case, evidence, credibility of witnesses or possible sentences. If the judge allows it, they’d even be kept from opining about Zimmerman’s guilt or innocence.”
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/10/18/3056605/prosecutors-want-george-zimmermans.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy
Ya do have to like Frances Robles. Rene Stutzman would never have written that lead. Go get ‘em, Frances!
Finally!!! The funny thing is, it really is in the best interest of George. I don’t know why his own attorney can’t see that.
Anyway, I liked: “On Monday, Facebook lawyers sent a letter to O’Mara vowing to fight the subpoena. Trayvon’s social-media
account, Facebook attorney Furqan Mohammed said, is not only irrelevant to the case, but by law cannot be released. Mohammed said federal law protects the account information, and added that arguing the issue would have to be done in a California court.”
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/10/18/3056605/prosecutors-want-george-zimmermans.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy
Looks as though FB’s policies on disclosure only applies to “official criminal investigation.” IOWs, they don’t recognize a defense attorney’s request for account info to be a request by law enforcement.
” a valid subpoena issued in connection with an official criminal investigation is required to compel the disclosure of basic subscriber records (defined in 18 U.S.C. Section 2703(c)(2)), which may include: name, length of service, credit card information, email address(es), and a recent login IP address, if available.”
“For private party requests, including requests from civil litigants and criminal defendants, visit: facebook.com/help/?page=1057″
http://www.facebook.com/safety/groups/law/guidelines/
@Xena – from your link:
US Legal Process Requirements
We disclose account records solely in accordance with our terms of service and applicable law, including the federal Stored
Communications Act (“SCA”), 18 U.S.C. Sections 2701-2712. Under the SCA:
a valid subpoena issued in connection with an official criminal investigation is required to compel the disclosure of basic subscriber records (defined in 18 U.S.C. Section 2703(c)(2)), which may include: name, length of service, credit card information, email address(es), and a recent login IP address, if available.
a court order issued under 18 U.S.C. Section 2703(d) is required to compel the disclosure of certain records or other information pertaining to the account, not including contents of communications, which may include message headers and IP addresses, in addition to the basic subscriber records identified above.
a search warrant issued under the procedures described in the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure or equivalent State warrant procedures upon a showing of probable cause is required to compel the disclosure of the stored contents of any account, which may include messages, photos, videos, wall posts, and location information.
http://www.facebook.com/safety/groups/law/guidelines/
Yep. MOM is not LE, and FB cites federal statute so may challenge the circuit court’s jurisdiction if MOM tries fighting for his subpoena there.
Yep Xena, and that will take money.
I am not surprised because the defense has been trying its case in the Court of Public Opinion for months now and the prosecution has at long last run out of patience. Of course, the prosecution has benefited more than the defense from this strategy, but I think the prosecution wants to cash in its winnings and move on to other pleasantries of a somewhat more formal nature.
Freddy I was asking earlier,
So the defense can ask for a self defense instruction at trial without presenting any evidence, even a preponderance of evidence at trial?
There has to be enough evidence in the record, regardless of which side introduced it, such that if is assumed to be true, it would support a verdict of not guilty.
The prosecution will attempt to avoid introducing any evidence of self-defense during its case, obviously, so I am expecting Zimmerman will have to testify in order to get a self-defense instruction.
The hearsay rule will prevent the defense from introducing Zimmerman’s statements, so that means Zimmerman will have to testify.
I hope that Judge Nelson grants the motion.
Unfortunately, we may not have very much to talk about in the case, if Judge Nelson grants the order.
Actually, given Florida’s Sunshine Law, I think it’s more likely she will give the defense a sternly worded rebuke and warning.
I’m sure MOM and the prosecution will still file papers, only MOM can’t give his reasons why on his website for GZ; neither write diatribes about race in the case.
Are rebukes and warnings “real” consequences? In Houston the local media showed that many many cops have warnings and written reprimands in their work files and yet they never get fired. I just don’t trust the legal system and the LEOs when these “rebukes and warnings” mean nothing of note or importance.
FACEBOOK LAWYERS are fighting Omara’s subpoena
Mohammed, one of facebook’s lawyers has stated that it is infringing on privacy laws as well as being irrelevant in the murder trial
Had Trayvon Martin phoned the police from his cell phone at about 7 pm on 2/26/2012 and said that there was a suspicious looking guy driving a vehicle that was probably stolen, that he “didn’t know what his deal was,” but that he looked like he was “up to no good,” that he looked like he was on drugs or something, that he was “trying to get away” and that they should come to the neighborhood at which point they should call Trayvon and find out where to meet up with him to discuss the necessary police response to the suspicious guy, THEN the police arrive to find Trayvon Martin dead and George standing there with a gun and saying, “It was self-defense; I was yelling HELP HELP and nobody would help me; he came out of the darkness and attacked me and I thought he was gonna kill me,” then,
…..tada… AND ONLY THEN…
would I consider Trayvon Martin’s high school and middle school records relevant in this case. As it is? Who cares what he did in middle school and in high school, since WE KNOW who started the interaction between Trayvon and George that night.
I don’t think the offer by DeeDee to embellish her testimony is a problem because obviously DelaRionda did not take her up on the offer. She knows nothing about court. It is not her job to make sure the process is clean; it is the prosecutor’s job. And he did it, whether he was graceful or not. IF, of course, her testimony under oath started to be enlarged from what her statement was, there could be questions, but the very fact that she said “if you want me to say that I will” or words to that effect show that SHE WAS TELLING THE REAL STORY while offering, at the same time, to jazz it up if requested.
What does she know? What she sees on TV. How many times do you see on TV the good guys have a witness go “too far” so they can catch a bad guy, right? She doesn’t know what the real deal is and why in the world would she?
NOW you think about another issue: George never had to ask anybody’s permission to make up a pack of lies. He was sophisticated enough to make all those decisions on his own. One feels pretty confident, in fact, that he never asked those first two bozo lawyers, “Hey should I exaggerate my injuries or something?” (Of course, had he asked…probly…well…)
Excellent point!
Do they have Zimmerman’s cellphone records, and text messages?
I believe they do, but do not know for sure.
It’s on the prosecution’s list of discovery that was submitted to the defense.
Okay. If they have his phone, they will have his SIM and his records for text and call
@ Frederick Leatherman,
Just wanted to reply to your earlier “Welcome back” to me. Thanks! Hope all is well with you and the family.
Following
I’m glad to see the blog moving forward. Miss Southern Girl hope she is fine.
I believe mark omara will make every effort to turn this trial into a circus. Sad…
Lonnie S, thanks for your comments. I always look forward to reading what Whonoze writes, just as eager to read Xena’s comments, as well as everyone else. Rarely do I see a comment from anyone here that disappoints me; I learn a lot and enjoy the process too. Just a general thank-you to everyone. If y’all could come over I’d serve fried plantains with hot sauce.
@Malisha.
Halibut. Can’t have fried plantains and hot sauce without Halibut steamed with onions and green peppers, seasoned with thyme. Don’t forget the hushpuppies. (Xena, who is willing to bring over dishes when others invite her over for a meal.) LOL.
“Thanks for your comments. I always look forward to reading what Whonoze writes, just as eager to read Xena’s comments, as well as everyone else. Rarely do I see a comment from anyone here that disappoints me; I learn a lot and enjoy the process too. Just a general thank-you to everyone.”
I have learned so much here and laughed at the clever/witty posts. My prayer is that GZ looking so bad today is a result of coming to read posts on this blog.
Since I was interested in figuring out O’Mara, I went to the Outhouse to see what they were saying about (a) his allowing Junior to blab too much and (b) his own blabbing too much (especially the “I think my client was reacting to having his nose broken and he reacted by shouting help help” comment). Here’s an interesting thing I found:
“MOM and West have always understood that they need to win this case in the court of public opinion before it will be possible to win the case in court. Filing suit against specific networks for fraudulent coverage has given MOM and West leverage to force them to accurately cover developments that they would prefer to ignore. Long before the SYG hearing, THE PUBLIC will be aware of the fraud by Crump and BDLR and Corey. The Trayvonites will still refuse to understand and the thugs might riot, but the backlash against the thug rioters will be more violent than they can imagine.”
So at least some Outhousers believe that: (a) Zimmerman’s team should sue the media until they spin things favorably for Zim; and that (b) “fraud by Crump and BDLR and Corey” is their main act so far (not innocence of their client, but “fraud” by the prosecution???) and (c) They are a lot more violent than African Americans.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!
How can anybody fix their mouth to argue that George’s medical records are not relevant when he is claiming a broken nose? His nose could have been broken in 1997.
Malisha: “His nose could have been broken in 1997.”
His nose looks pretty much the same as it did in his prior pictures including mug shot with orange shirt from 2005. In any case, GZ did not feel his 2012 “broken” nose needed x-ray or treatment by ENT specialist.
Yes, that’s my point. If he wants anybody to even consider the possibility that he was injured after 7 pm on 2/26/2012 he should be required to prove that his physical condition prior to that point in time was established by a certain baseline. Of course he’s a total liar, but since HE put his injuries into the evidentiary picture, he has no right to refuse to disclose his pre-injury status.
I have a new post up:
Zimmerman: Lawyers Lawyers Everywhere — Important Hearing Today at 1:30 pm EDT
Greetings Professor Leatherman. I have enjoyed reading your articles and insights but have not posted a comment before now. I became interested in this case in late March 2012. Once I listened to the 911 call by a witness who is a retired teacher I wrote the Seminole County 911 Communication Center an email of gratitude of the 911 operators handing of a very emotional call. He was very gentle with her, not in a hurry and concerned for her well-being. Of course the case exploded after that.
I posted comments on various news comment boards when a story came up in this case. I began to see the enormous hysteria and received responses that were ugly in nature and wondered what was going on. Real information about George Zimmerman and crew was very difficult to sift through. I believe most of his stories, his defenders stories are delusional and disturbing. My comments were constantly being removed until I was unable to post…this was ABC News. I went through a period of searching the internet for any truth I felt rang true, but usually failed miserably. I saw stories in the Orlando Sentinel that were factually wrong commented there and was banned. I reviewed my comments they claimed were inflammatory in nature and saw no evidence of their claim. However I was glad to get out of the stench they call their comment board. Rene Stutzman offends me and well…..Weiner with a name like that what else could I expect.
I arrive at my opinions in this case by reviewing all the discovery documents and have seen a trend that greatly upsets me. The individuals that protest the loudest, who offer up credentials that can not be verified or believed have been very hard at work. I was a bcclister before the blog seemed to be taken over by overzealous persons who want to rewrite history in this case. I see many of them here and know their writing styles enough to spot them under their many many user names. Those on the new bcclist claim to be diligently working this case and it will explode per them because well…they are just that good.
I have a few questions about my experience with this case. I was invited into a private blog a few months ago but rarely posted there. However after Justice Quest shut down their TM/GZ threads to only registered users with paid email accounts I felt safe to add a photo of myself to the other new blog (not JQ) This photo is of myself and my daughter who died in an automobile crash in 2008. Why I felt it would be safe I can’t tell you. Within a week of using my very personal photo attached to a user name I will not use again I saw my former user name with this never before used photo of us on the Orlando Sentinel with pro zimmerman rantings etc. The photo and rantings by allegedly me went on for pages. I then decided to try to log in to my previously banned account at the OS and my login which was not my user name but my email account and password (not yahoo gmail or rocketmail, but a roadrunner acct) and was allowed in but could not post. I believe their was someone in this blog who had access to my username my email and password and captured my photo in an effort to say f u. I do not blame the Admin there I know it is a weeding out process to find those Zimmerman’s who constantly troll the net. I just wanted your thought on the OS and their responsibility in this matter. It has caused me incredible sadness and trauma seeing a precious photo of my deceased daughter and myself spewing racist bizarre comments there. It has of course been removed but I took screen shots of each posting. Thank you for allowing me to vent. I appreciate your blog more then I can say.
Thank you for sharing your story with us and please accept my sincere condolences for what you have been put through.
I say “sincere” because some of us have been subjected to some nasty treatment too. Not as bad as the way you were treated, but bad nevertheless. We understand how painful it can be to be targeted.
You are welcome here.
Thank you so much.
SDunn5, you said, “Real information about George Zimmerman and crew was very difficult to sift through. I believe most of his stories, his defenders stories are delusional and disturbing.”
You have expressed it so well! We started off with Taaffe showing the world, “This is where George became the victim,” and then we traveled to, “He was fed up and wasn’t going to take it any more,” whereupon we were treated to Joe Oliver saying his daughter told him that “goons” was a term of endearment among young African Americans; from there we graduated to Osterman saying that George had so many Black friends “that he loved dearly and they loved HIM dearly” that he could have arranged a giant protest in Sanford as big as the ones led by Sharpton!
It kind of gives you a sense of vertigo. Like, where’s EARTH? Is there still gravity? Does it still pull DOWN and not up or sideways?
And it’s not just their nonsense that gets you; it’s their virulence and rage towards Trayvon Martin’s family and post-mortem friends. They have the nerve to think that nobody should be insisting upon a prosecution; everybody on THIS side of the isle should just say, “Oh well probably Trayvon was to blame” and let it go at that.
It does boggle the mind. It boggles the collective conscience!
It is an alternate universe. Here is a thought a good friend of mine knows my interest in this case but does not get involved. I asked him if he thought GZ was a murderer he said no doubt at all. He just can’t get into this case any deeper because he feels it would put him over the edge every day. The small faction of Zimrod’s aren’t fooling anyone but themselves. They are laughable and incredibly rage inducing. It used to be these zeros were harder to find. Now they post with abandon no consequences… taking it over the line every post.
O’Mara said he has heard “anecdotal evidence” that the 17-year-old Martin had been involved in mixed martial arts fighting.
I had to Google anecdotal evidence to find out what it meant.
Omara is indeed getting his talking points from the treehouse.