I offer this example of the proper way to give an opening statement. This is an excerpt from the meaty section of the statement that I would give following the introduction and brief reference to the presumption of innocence, burden of proof, and the proof beyond a reasonable doubt standard.
Consider this a snapshot out of a longer and more detailed opening statement that I would give, if I were the prosecutor. Note how I seem to disappear in plain view by allowing the evidence to speak for itself, instead of me pontificating about the evidence. I do this out of respect for Trayvon Martin. This is his story and I will let him tell it through the evidence. This case is not about me. It’s about justice for Trayvon Martin.
The Medical Examiner will testify about the autopsy he conducted and he will tell you that the fatal shot entered Trayvon’s chest 1 inch left of the midline and 3/4 of an inch below the nipple. The muzzle of the gun was 2 to 4 inches away from his chest and the hollow point bullet that ended his life went directly from front to back without varying up or down, left or right, and entered the right ventricle of his heart destroying it.
He will tell you that the bullet fragmented after it entered the body collapsing both lungs. There was no exit wound.
The path of that bullet did not happen by chance as two people grappled and twisted in the night.
No, an analyst from the Florida State Crime Lab will tell you that she examined young Traynon’s clothing, his outer sweatshirt and his inner sweatshirt. She will tell you that the muzzle of the gun was in contact with the outer sweatshirt when this defendant pulled the trigger sending the exploding hollow point bullet into young Trayvon’s heart.
She will tell you that the bullet holes in the inner and outer sweatshirts align perfectly, but they do not align with the entry wound.
She will tell you the sweatshirts had to be gripped together and pulled down to align with the wound.
Ladies and Gentlemen, the evidence will establish beyond a reasonable doubt that this defendant held young Trayvon still at gunpoint under threat of death with his gun in his right hand while gripping young Trayvon’s sweatshirts with his left hand.
This defendant admitted to police how he fired the fatal shot. He told them that he extended his right hand beyond his left hand so that he would not accidentally shoot it. He aimed and he fired.
The Medical Examiner will tell you that, despite that catastrophic wound, young Trayvon likely remained conscious for a minute or two in extreme agony aware that he was dying as he slowly suffocated to death in his own blood.
Ladies and Gentlemen, the evidence will show that young Trayvon Martin died that night in the dark and in the cold rain because this defendant shot him to death.
The evidence will also show that young Trayvon died without knowing who this man was and why this man stalked, hunted him down, and executed him.
The evidence will establish that beyond a reasonable doubt because this defendant told the police that he never told young Trayvon who he was or why he was following him.
Finally, you will hear young Trayvon’s last words before he died. It is shriek that you will never forget.
Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a difficult and solemn task ahead of us. We have come from near and far. We come from all walks of life. We are here to do justice and together we will do it.
If I were the prosecutor, I probably would not mention the evidence that GZ sat on Trayvon’s back and asphyxiated him instead of calling 911 and attempting CPR. I would bring that out at trial, of course, and hit it hard during the rebuttal part of my closing argument.
The point I am trying to make here is that the unvarnished facts of this case are far more horrifying than any descriptive words.
No one has to call George Zimmerman a demon.
We know him by what he did.
He is what he is and there are no words to describe it.
This is how to deliver an opening statement that no one will ever forget.
That’s what you need to do when you are a prosecutor. You have to win your case with your opening statement.
And you have to do it without notes establishing eye contact with each juror one-at-a-time as as you move through each point.
You must not speak too long, too fast or too slow.
You must vary the pace of your speech.
And you must also vary the volume and pitch.
The human voice is a powerful musical instrument that all good trial lawyers learn to master.
We all know the art of story telling and we know that the courtroom is our stage.
I posted a draft of an opening statement on the previous link. I’d really appreciate a critique. Last entry in the thread.
I read and critiqued it.
Thank you for the opportunity.
thank you.
I’ve read your comments. Thank you very much for taking the time.
You’ve pointed out very well that there’s a reason I rejected any kind of social work. I can now add prosecution attorney. If I were to feel as much as is necessary to write/say as you suggest, I will be destroyed. Others feel that way, I can see it in their remarks. I’m not willing to go there. Guess I flunk the course. : (
Absolutely not.
Nobody who cares flunks my course.
You care and I care about you.
In your own time, in your own way, you will go there.
Because you must and you know it.
In the meantime, please stay and honor us with your presence.
I’m not going anywhere. I love what I’m learning, including that I would be much better in the back room, maybe doing analysis and such things, not out front doing the talking.
If I were a doctor I’d have to be a pathologist – in the back room talking to dead people : )
Oh, BettyKath, don’t work in the back room, talking to dead people. They’ve lost their sense of humor.
LOL.
BettyKath, please read my commendations on your Opening Statement (right after it) on the previous thread.
Thank you.
Patricia, I read your comments thanks. I realize that the first few paragraphs were just the beginning and I see changes that I would make there. Each of the other statements need a full paragraph, not just one statement. When I used to do writing as part of my job I usually went through a LOT of drafts before I was satisfied. Even this blurb got some editing. I loooove cut and paste.
I thought the shot would be 12 inches away. I do agree with the shirt grab assessment. I have been saying that for a few months now
I still think it is quite possible that the shot was anywhere from zero to 18 inches away.
Definitely not Zero… Thats contact shot
Judging from the 2 inch stippling and the shot should be intermediate at about 12 – 18 inches with a regular semi automatic
I have looked at gun shots and abput that range from semi is 12 – 18
I could be wrong
but the forensics showing he grabbed Trayvon by the shirt with the threat of the gun negates SYG. Add the facts of stalking, chasing, and escalating a hostile environment and attack… Its easily apparent Zimmerman terrorized this kid
Zimbo is a perfect example of what cops warned kids in school about stalking strangers as Zimmerman is epitome of creepy stranger
According to Dr. Vincent di Maio, a respected forensic pathologist and former Medical Examiner for Bexar County, TX (San Antonio),, who reviewed the autopsy report, the shot was fired from a distance of 2-4 inches.
Interesting
http://www.firearmsid.com/Distance%20Images/12_inch_griess_test_standard.htm
I based my guess on this pic. Its 2 inch stippling.
Not sure but thats my guess
The distance of 2-4 inches is what leads to the possibility of them both standing GZ ahold of Trayvon by his shirt, when the shot was actually fired close and straight on. Trayvon fell and
GZ went down on top of him immediately. That’s why one witness said they say one on top of the other.. I think GZ was on top, checked Trayvon out for being dead and immediately
arranged as much as he could to look good for him as cops arrived. I don’t know hard that gun hits, but I would believe that
Trayvon fell backwards on the shot. Down and GZ straddled him then, or even as GZ had ahold of TM’s shirt, Trayvon’s fall could have pulled George off balance, as they went down that
still put GZ on top.
Add more power to the opening statement by mentioning that Trayvon asked his assailant “who are you and why are you doing this?”, but received a brutally hostile answer that was effectively “You don’t need to know!”, before he begged in pain to be let go.
That is, if the 911 tapes actually reflect that as claimed.
The forensics team will give us a better idea. I am thinking Zimmerman grabbed Trayvon by the shirt and stretched it in front of him. The barrel made contact with the shirt only but the bullet from muzzle to flesh was about 12 inches away. The distance from muzzle to chest is disputed, but shirt pulled while being shot is undeniable. Thats why Trayvon was screaming. At this point, I believe Zimbo threw him str8 facedown & proceeded to straddle and molest Trayvon’s back, pinning him face down. torturing him till death.
Pure evil and brutal
Zimmerman is one of those creepy strangers they warned us of since childhood in school
I thought the Skittles and soft drink could have weighed down the hoody, but on reflection, not the inner sweatshirt. But were they in the hoody pocket at the moment of shooting?
Look at the 7-11 photo. His hoodie wasnt baggy. It also doesnt explain the 2 different readings of the hoodie and undershirt and the entry would. The drink and skittles are less than a pound. The shirt and hoodie can only be stretched with force. Zimmerman held defenseless Trayvon by his shirt at gunpoint as he screamed and pleaded for his life & Zimmerman showed no mercy and killed the kid.
Jun is right.
I had a weird dream about this last night. It ran though the possible angles and positions around when the shot was taken.
First realize that GZ has fired that gun hundreds of times per the Osterman Resource. [boy oh boy, when I first called him that on the bcclist.com I didn't really realize what a resource he'd turn out to be, it was just a hunch based on his creds. Now I can see the faint glow of his fingerprints all over that night.]
First the dream ran through all the permutations of them on the ground, then one on the ground and one standing over him. Nothing there worked. The angles kept coming up wrong because, the required logistical parameters, only appeared for an instant and almost never aligned with one another. When they did, it was statistically all but impossible that a shot fired would use the alignment to achieve the result. But the kibosh was that there would have been no utility to holding onto TM’s garments and stretching them taut.
Then the dream went to both standing. Now arms are at opposite poles of the body on a “plan view” looking down from above. So, if you extend your right arm straight out, it’s on the right side of your body. Now extend a finger straight out and point to the center line of someone standing in front of you. You’ll notice they have to be slightly to the right of you as well. If they move to your left and align with you, Your arm and finger, still pointing to their center line, will now tend an angle. So, now you see that Trayvon had to be standing in front of, and slightly to the right of GZ when the shot was taken, for it to go straight in. For there to be any utility of holding TM’s clothing, they both have to be standing. With one other thing, TM has to be standing still and not resisting, because, any twisting and turning would be reflected in the alignment of the holes in his clothing, known as wrinkles. A bullet piercing a wrinkle will leave a differently shaped hole, than one going through unwrinkled cloth. TM had to be standing quite still, as if frozen in fear while he pleaded and screamed. You certainly wouldn’t want to move while someone was holding a gun on you.
At least Trayvon Martin had the presence of mind to know that this crazy man wasn’t going to be deterred by anything less than intervention. So while he kept screaming, GZ kept thinking. What he’d be thinking about, at this point would be, he has drawn his gun on a kid, who he has been causing great pain and questioning him. He has to know, from the gun law/lore he’s heard his fellow gun people talk about, that even drawing a weapon is a serious legal matter, pointing and questioning someone at gunpoint is even more terribly serious. So, it’s with this realization that he has committed a terrible and serious crime and that Trayvon Martin is the only good witness, both before and after the fact, that he decides he has to pull the trigger, because that is his only hope of getting out of this.
How did GZ get into this mess in the first place? Where did the animosity come from? It was probably “territorial animosity”, he’d been patrolling his “turf” and he didn’t realize he was building a “my territory” view of the neighborhood into his psyche. Fed by talk with his “friends”, fellow gunholders/NW’ers and, of course, the Osterman Resource, who had been where GZ aspired to go.
These other people, would probably have their “little conspiracy”, plans, to come to the aid and assistance of each other, built up around hypothetical stories they’d focus on from time to time. Where “If this happens I’d do that” and such. Not thinking much would ever come of it. But it does build obligations in the mind of the person who avers such things, how strongly they felt about discharging any such obligations is anyone’s guess.
But my guess is, if it were anyone else, other than GZ, the Osterman Resource, would have pointed out to the police that, the truck he took away from the scene, was evidence they should have collected. It is probably because he felt some obligation to Zimmerman, that he assisted in taking that truck away.
@Bogie,
Great post. I think you are right that he was frozen in fear while standing. I also believe that even though they were both standing GZ had a hold of his shirts in his stronger left hand. It’s been my experience that if a gun is being held at you, you talk . (I’m begging you. you try not to make any sudden moves. If you have a knife held at you total opposite you don’t move you don’t talk. Premediation comes to my mind, even though GZ had control of TM he still chose to shoot him. I still think its murder one. but I’ll take 2.
Have to run to work,
TTYL
Brown
Wowwwwww! Just the details of death.
Staggering.
But the point clearly made, Professor, that Zimmerman had control over Trayvon and the time to reconsider … “should I really kill that kid?” So, no need to try to “pre-rebut” any argumant from O’Mara re: self defense.
And no getting into any discussion re “on the ground” versus “standing up.”
You demolish Zimmerman’s ludicrous claim on cross, or if GZ won’t testify, use it in summation. But not now. Brilliant!
I do have one request, Professor. You said ONE photo may be exhibited during the Opening.
Would you consider the vertical photo of young Trayvon, standing so tall and gangly and un-muscular, wearing his round scholarly glasses, and holding close by DeeDee? Such a human photo! A contemporary photo so no one can argue it’s when he was a really young kid. And let them puzzle … “who is the little girl with him?”
They’ll find out.
Please use that photo, Professor. The glasses will impress on the jury that this was a gentle, non-pugnacious kid. Classmates – you’ll find it on Axiom Amnesia.
My profound thanks for delivering up the Classic Opening, Professor.
I’m no longer struggling with my Version 3. Into the shredder it goes!
WOW professor. Just — WOW!!! I would hate to be a defense attorney having to follow your opening statement.
I’ve been in that position many times. It ain’t easy.
What do you feel might be the defense’s most powerful opening statement?
O’Mara is in an extremely difficult situation with limited options.
He has to maximize the severity of GZ’s wounds and claim TM caused them, as opposed to GZ running into a tree or falling down and hitting his head against something.
He needs some expert testimony to support his argument, so he needs to be shopping around to find a couple of ER docs who will testify that the injuries are consistent with GZ’s explanation of what happened and, because of the amount of bleeding, a person suffering those injuries might well freak out and believe the injuries were serious and they were in imminent danger of death.
Then, after he finds someone to say that… He has to find a magician who can move them both, bodily 40 feet or more, in an instant, and somehow suspend time at the right moment, if these wounds and their cause are to be made proximal causes for the gunshot. Because John puts them on the grass 40 feet from where GZ says he was being beaten to near death.
Wasn’t it pretty darned courteous of Trayvon, to stop his assault, each time a witness came out, so that GZ could make eye contact and scream for help? Most especially doing so, while knowing that GZ’s gun was still in it’s holster and available for his use?
He’s supposed to have discovered it, when GZ’s shirt rose up as he wiggled away from the T. I guess Trayvon forgot GZ was carrying a weapon too? My, my, all this forgetfulness. GZ doesn’t remember that he has a weapon he goes nowhere without, TM forgets to hit GZ in the face, and GZ can’t remember what he was doing with his own hands while being smothered.
Yes, it is an awful mess, if the testimony given is to be believed. The only simple solution to solving it will be, to throw out GZ’s self serving statements, in light of his in ability to tell the truth.
Now that the Treehouse KlusterFluck is breaking up, we’ll probably be seeing errant visits of those who can’t get enough.
Brace for it.
Freddy
couldn’t an ER doctor get charged with perjury for falsely presenting his injurie? I am fairly sure when the jury sees his high def police station fotos, they will come to the conclusion he is lying.
I doubt they will go after a defense expert like that, but they might, if they believe the can prove perjury. To do that they probably would need him on tape admitting that he committed perjury and they aren’t likely to get that.
Professor , the prosecution can rebut the ER testimony with their medical experts ad to the seriousness of GZ injuries right.
Yes.
Excellent Professor. So true, Trayvon died not even having a clue what was going on. Just horrible and so sad.
Excellent Opening Statement.. To step away from the subject for a question.
Professor how did Shellie Zimmerman keep a concealed weapons license for herself after being charged…. Is it that GZ is not allowed to possess any guns or be around them? Explain…
It appears they want to take SZ license away she obtain with her husband. Also, how in Gods name did they end with the same judge. This seems fixed to me. I hope the Martins’ get justice…
i read somewhere yesterday that shellie’s cc permit has been suspended, i will try to find that source.
Has anyone heard about when Shellie’s perjury case is coming up. Just wonder if a conviction may be possible and perhaps a criminal record of her own may force her to look a little closer at her husband, his lies, killing a teen and lying about it. George Zimmerman certainly led her down a path of destruction.
I think she is scheduled to be in court tomorrow to either plead guilty or set a trial date, if she still wants to contest the charge.
I do not believe she has a defense to the charge, but I do not know what she and her lawyer have decided to do.
Unless that hearing has been continued, I imagine we’ll find out tomorrow.
Who is paying for Shellie’s defense?
A law professor (whose name I can’t remember now), once said that if you want to be a good litigator, sit under a good preacher. Good preachers paint word pictures. They can convince people to believe what they can’t see, and believe written words that God spoke to others. The analogy was seeing the crime, and weighing evidence including belief in what witnesses heard and/or saw.
the human voice is a tremendous thing…. God’s voice… even, maybe… and so many ”Babal” languages… to obscure if they could.
I had problems all my life with my voice. I sometimes could not get my voice to work, it would go weird on me, back in High school, I had big problems with it, like talking… like answering a question delivered from my teacher, or other stuff, just hopeless… kwavering and aphasiac… to the max!
The voice isn’t the window to the soul, (that is what the eyes do…), but the voice is some kind of indicator of what one has… but not sure what…
Not a big supporter of that faux scientific bs: Polygraph, so why would we go in for some kind of bs about how…: Voices, my voice gets weird sometimes, especially when I get turned on by some babe. Haha.
Ed,
You have a charming way of cutting through the bullshit.
Always a pleasure, Gentle Soul.
Excellent post Professor
Awesome!!!
Hello Professor,
Perfect presentation! I hope Bernie de la Rondio can come close to yours. From what I’ve seen in previous court appearances, he seems a bit hyper at times and that might not be a good thing. We shall see.
BTW, will Angela Corey be sitting at the prosecution table as well? I’m a bit confused by what part she’ll play..Maybe she’ll just be there to reap in the glory when Zimmerman is convicted?
I have two questions that came to mind when I read your opening statement.
One, Do you think TM would have gotten off of George if George would have ordered him by gunpoint?
Two, Aren’t hollow point bullets illegal and if they are could GZ be given extra time for using them?
TIA
I just checked this out and apparently they are not only legal in Florida, they are preferred.
Seems the only state where they are illegal is in New Jersey.
I think she will be there. I feel they will both be working the trial. I am sure she wants to see it thru the end. My guess is this as Zimmerman has 3 lawyers with him in court.
You said,
I don’t think TM was on top of GZ for very long, if at all. I think GZ was interrogating him at gunpoint and didn’t believe him when TM said he was living in the neighborhood. I think that’s why TM was saying, “I don’t know.” (referring to the address)
Hollow points are not illegal. In fact, they are recommended because the bullets will usually break up in the body and not exit, potentially hitting someone else. Homeowner’s usually buy hollow points for that reason.
Professor…this is completely off topic so I will check back in morning to review your answers…..if you decide to..
Professor how can Shellie Zimmerman keep a concealed weapons license for herself after being charged? Is it because perjury is not a offensive crime.
Is GZ not allowed to possess any guns or be around them?
It appears they want to take SZ license away she obtain with her husband. Explain…
How in Gods name did they end with the same judge?
Thank you Professor for answering my questions.
I’ve read your scenario before and I think it’s quite possible. We know from witness reports that they heard loud arguing. Probably as you suggested, GZ was interrogating him.
I also think GZ’s use of these words “somebody is going to die tonight” was a Freudian slip. It was HE who said that to TM not the other way around.
The anger in George’s voice when he jumped out of his vehicle cannot be denied. I really think that George was upset because Trayvon tried to intimidate him by reaching in his waistband and circling his truck. To gun-toting George, TM was disrespecting him which in reality, this was Trayvon’s attempt to intimidate and scare away the “creepy stalker”
Of course to George, hopped up on Adderall aka amphetamines, he was oblivious to TM’s fear and concerns. At that moment, George totally lost control and he was unable to contain himself. The language he used with the NEN dispatcher tells us his mindset and his need to get TM at any cost.
As I recall on the Hannity show, when asked about this incident, GZ said with a smirk on his face that he was never afraid of TM.
Poor George, he never knows when he’s shooting himself in the foot. His words will come back to haunt him because his machismo makes him the aggressor. IMO
As for the hollow point bullets.. I have zero knowledge when it comes to firearms.
So I guess what you’re saying is “hollow point bullets” are for people who can’t shoot straight. ::smile::
But now I wonder if GZ hadn’t used hollow points, the bullet may have went directly through TM’s body and perhaps not caused such extensive internal injury such as blowing out both lungs. I guess it’s safe to say hollow point bullets are the deadliest. So sad.
thejabmission said:” I really think that George was upset because Trayvon tried to intimidate him by reaching in his waistband and circling his truck. To gun-toting George, TM was disrespecting him which in reality, this was Trayvon’s attempt to intimidate and scare away the “creepy stalker””
Do you have any evidence that “Trayvon tried to intimidate” GZ?
Trayvon was carrying his purchase and phone in the rain and had multiple reasons to keep his hands in or near his hoody pockets
Do you have any evidence that Trayvon ever turned back to “circle his truck”?
I don’t believe TM was ever on top of George, if somehow he ever was I don’t believe that George would have ever had any problems getting him off of him, he outweighed him by 40lbs.
Actually one witness: John, saw Trayvon on top, but he was seen laying on top of GZ, not straddling, less than a minute before the shot. Not much time for TM to turn psycho killer and do much at all, to GZ if he did. After all, being unarmed doesn’t make him much of a deadly threat.
@ lonnie Star
I am not too worried about Johnny boy’s testimony, I am sure he took too many MMA blows to the head to be reliable, why he can’t even tell time nor can he understand the concept of before and after, for example, did a gun shot come before or after he called the police? Johnny boy seems a bit confused and contrary to incontrovertible forensics so I am not too concerned about Johnny boy at all.
“Johnny boy” was the one who put GZ on top, I was never convinced by him. Later he surrendered his “MMA” blows, my guess is the SP confronted him with the lack of any evidence of it on TM’s hands, that and probably some other stupidity he probably uttered that we may never know about. My guess? He probably said something that raised the prosecutors eyebrows, when it came very close to making him seem an accessory after the fact. He’d certainly have to back quickly away from an error like that, eh? Sprinting out there to take pictures of wounds GZ didn’t want the medics to see, if he could help it.
Stay tuned, I fully expect he isn’t yet finished recanting.
I do not believe anything this witness (W6) said because he retracted some very specific descriptive testimony helpful to George Zimmerman that was simply untrue. He made it up and because he made it up and misrepresented it as true to the police investigating a homicide, I can only conclude that he is not worthy of belief about anything he said regarding this incident.
If I were the prosecutor, I would not call him as a witness. In fact, I probably would have charged him with giving a materially false statement to a police officer investigating a homicide. Y’all might recall, for example, that Scooter Libby was convicted of several counts of giving materially false statements to FBI agents investigating the outing of Valerie Plame. Of course, that is a federal felony offense defined by 18 U.S.C. 1001. States have criminalized the same conduct, although they often call it Obstructing a Criminal Investigation and it’s classified as gross misdemeanor rather than a felony. No doubt Florida has a similar offense on the books.
If I were defense counsel, I also would not call him as a witness. After all, why should the jury believe anything he said, when the most important thing he said was a lie to a police officer investigating a homicide?
He certainly made matters difficult for the prosecution, for as long as his testimony lasted. Because it barred the door, so to speak, to letting go of the illusions GZ’s defense was structured around. I think it may also have provided false support for arguments the defense was able to make at the first bail hearing. But for sure, it had an impact on how the entire case was viewed until he recanted.
Perhaps I misunderstand, but I think you are conflating two people.
W6: gave an interview as “John”, MMA punches (or not), only set one foot outside, told them he would call 911 and did so, lives in the west row of houses.
W13: suspected name “Jonathan”, Asian, went outside after the shot, did not call 911, took pictures, lives in east row
But yes, I agree, it would not surprise me if John still had things to tell.
@PYorck, yes, yes, yes, you are correct of course, my poor attempt at humor is all I have to hang onto, as I continue to wade through the reams of documents, scattered all over the place. Both for my collection here (gasp it’s pretty haphazard but it’s increasing in size) [http://zimmerman-vs-martin.blogspot.com/]
I’m in the midst of trying to resolve some conflicts that may, or may not, appear in DD’s testimony. It’s aggravating to see how many simple pieces of information that should be here, that police should have collected or noted, that aren’t, and would have let GZ escape unscathed or even investigated, if the public had not gotten involved.
For sure the SPD/City of Sanford, would not have had or expended the resources needed to overturn the decisions they made to simply let GZ go. If the Gov., had not stepped in the matter would have been left to quietly languish and disappear.
As it is, I doubt even GZ’s prowling the neighborhood with his lights off, will garner the attention it deserves, as well as who worked with him on NW and how they managed this secretive organization, or were allowed to keep it that way.
Tzar,
Actually I don’t have any real evidence other than GZ’s words which in reality is the only evidence that I know of other than DeeDee’s testimony, forensics and witness testimony which only applies to what happened in the courtyard.
When I listen to GZ’s words, I look for consistencies, not that there’s much of that but he mentions this incident a couple of times.
BTW, I don’t think if TM did this, helps GZ. Most people would have backed off if this happened to them. They certainly wouldn’t jump out the safety of their vehicle and pursue this individual. That’s insane, unless you’re packing a Ket-tec 9mm.
I’m looking for a motive and I think “circling the truck” is the ticket. Its like IF you see a ferocious bear outside of your house, you don’t go outside unless you plan on killing the bear.
IF this did happen, only George knows. If I were TM I would have tried to scare off this creepy guy too by pretending to have a gun. What else could TM do?
Tzar, Zimmerman was even chunkier than that! SPD weighed him the night of the killing. 207 lbs. Trayvon, per ME: 155 lbs.
52 lbs. difference! Zimm was at some point on the ground, crashing his own head against something, from his own clumsiness. Concrete water meter vault, sprinkler head or something.
I think he smashed his nose falling into the metal sign on the dog-poop station. Shoulda stayed there! That station was NAMED AFTER Zimmerman, though I wouldn’t use the cute word “poop” to describe Zimmerman.
JBmission said:”Actually I don’t have any real evidence other than GZ’s words ”
In the same portion of containing those claims by GZ, he also said that TM looked high on drugs and up to no good, all of which we know a were. So I see no reason to believe that, also, GZ never tells the dispatcher that TM came back to circle his car at the time that h claims that this was happening. For all these reasons I don’t believe him at all.
Trayvon was on strange turf and facing a stranger who’s aggression hinted at a tactical weapon’s advantage, it makes no sense that he would fake a confrontation and risk getting shot stabbed or worse.
DeeDee never says that Trayvon went back to the car, in fact she says that he tried to get away from the creepy man. given all that he was reporting to her on the phone I would think that he would relay such a daring gambit.
The only believable and sensible thing Zimmerman said of Trayvon’s behavior, and which is corroborated by DeeDee, is that he ran. Everything else makes no sense, sound like a bunch of lies and is uncorroborated.
Actually it more than just sounds like a bunch of lies, it is a bunch of lies… There simply isn’t time between activities on the NEN tape, to allow for TM to cover 1110 ft. which he’d have to cover if he came back and circled the truck. This is why you need to see it on a timeline. That makes it way easier to understand the mechanical things, like where GZ requires TM to walk at 30 to 40 mph.
Time log also proves Trayvon didn’t circle the truck.
(Didn’t even skip around it.)
Edit:
In the same portion of containing those claims by GZ, he also said that TM looked high on drugs and up to no good, all of which we know a were NOT TRUE.
Tzar,
So if “circling of the truck” isn’t the motive, then what is? As I said before, not everything in this case is a fact. Afterall, GZ is the teller of tales, so anything he says is subject for debate.
The angry tone in GZ’s voice when he jumps out of his vehicle can’t be denied.
Something set him off and I have a gut feeling that TM “dissed him” in some way and he was going to make this kid pay.
GZ would have been livid if TM tried to intimidate him in any way.
Remember how GZ laughed when Hannity asked him if he believed TM had a gun in his waistband? He said, paraphrasing -> “he didn’t scare me”. Why is that so important for him?
He’s on Adderall, he’s sitting in his truck waiting for a reason and IMO, TM running would have suit GZ just fine because that makes him the Bully and we all know GZ loves being a bully. He enjoys instilling fear in his prey. I think TM was checking him out. Who wouldn’t? Some stranger following you in a car? Wouldn’t you want to know what he looks like?
I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this point. BTW,
I read here more often than I post and I find your comments right on target except for this issue.
jbmission said “So if “circling of the truck” isn’t the motive, then what is? As I said before, not everything in this case is a fact. Afterall, GZ is the teller of tales, so anything he says is subject for debate.
The angry tone in GZ’s voice when he jumps out of his vehicle can’t be denied.
Something set him off and I have a gut feeling that TM “dissed him” in some way and he was going to make this kid pay.
GZ would have been livid if TM tried to intimidate him in any way.
Remember how GZ laughed when Hannity asked him if he believed TM had a gun in his waistband? He said, paraphrasing -> “he didn’t scare me”. Why is that so important for him? ”
I command you on your fertile imagination but fail to see any logic in your comments.
Tzar, Zimmerman is not the kind of guy who looks ahead at consequences. Take the example of razzing & humiliating the Middle Eastern guy where he worked. That kind of garbage would be done MAYBE by a snarky 14-year old. Not somebody ten years older. Adults don’t do this in the workplace and normal people know there would be consequences. Zimmerman was the perpetual loser and never figured out that he, himself was the cause.
My guess is that as he watched and trailed Trayvon in his car (lights out at times!) he grew frustrated that Trayvon was NOT peering in windows and rifling mailboxes or picking up BBQ’s off people’s patios.
He WANTED Trayvon to be a crook, be apprehended, then GZ would get credit for stopping “the crime wave.”
I never believed any of the “he’s got sumpin’ in his waistband” and all the other embroidery Zimmerman added to his report – of a kid who was just walking home talking on his cellphone.
Even the wheedling voice GZ uses tells me he’s trying to con Sean into “expediting” the service. Zimmerman was just hyping this non-emergency to Sean, the dispatcher, to make sure a cop would be sent – hopefully in time to interrogate this walking kid that he HOPED was a crook. So George would get credit.
Zimmerman also had a BBQ and bike stolen off his patio months earlier and I bet his paranoid thought processes were projecting THOSE crimes onto Trayvon because he was, yep, a YBM – and those are the only “suspects” Zimmerman EVER encountered in his condo complex.
If Zimmerman ever saw a white guy jimmying open a car door, he’d think -” hey, there’s a guy who lost his keys.” Seeing a YBM doing the same, it’s a crime wave. But 20% of the residents were African American! This guy wasn’t living in Antarctica!
What would make Zimmerman’s reaction to THIS particular YBM – Trayvon – any dfferent than his reaction to 100% of all the other suspects he called in about – all YBM’s?
They were ALL “suspects”. And he realized he was geting a rep at Sanford PD for calling in all the time, so he added stuff to give his call a sense of urgency.
The only truth Zimmerman told Sean (dispatcher) was that there was a pedestrian walking on the street. Pretty alarming at 7:00 p.m., right? You notice he was quick to volunteer, “He loooooks black” before he even saw his face. He just assumed (hoped) that a tall skinny kid slouching down the street IN A HOODIE was going to be “George Zimmerman’s kind of ‘suspect’ – A black guy.
So nothing that Trayvon did got Zimmerman riled up. It’s what he DIDN’T DO: crime. But Trayvon, realistically, got suspicious, and headed where cars can’t go. Figuring if the guy was legit in the car, the car would keep on driving down the street. But he also figured it was safer to get away from this guy, so he took off, out of the line of sight. Unfortunately for Trayvon, that gave him a sense of security. He never knew that the guy had gotten out of his car until he loomed up in front of him in the dogwalk area.
Please, my friend, don’t let sicko George convince you that Trayvon did ANYthing to earn Zimmerman’s wrath.
Zimmerman was a frustrated loser who obviously failed his Anger Management Training like everything else in life.
Trayvon Martin is tragically dead because of that.
You said,
“Even the wheedling voice GZ uses tells me he’s trying to con Sean into “expediting” the service. Zimmerman was just hyping this non-emergency to Sean, the dispatcher, to make sure a cop would be sent – hopefully in time to interrogate this walking kid that he HOPED was a crook. So George would get credit.”
I don’t believe he was attempting to expedite anything. I don’t think he wanted the police to arrive before he experienced the thrill of busting and interrogating someone.
This is where the horror begins to dawn on me.
I will explain by posing several questions:
(1) How could he not have realized that detaining and interrogating a “suspect” at gunpoint would result in his own arrest and prosecution for assault and battery?
(2) With the officer en route and due to arrive any minute, why did he shoot and kill his “suspect?”
(3) What was his purpose in going on the police drive-along? Was it to get an up-close-and-personal look at how his heroes functioned in the War Against Crime, or was it an undercover effort by a vigilante to gather intelligence on police-response activities that he could use to his own advantage to avoid arrest and prosecution for his planned future vigilante activities?
(4) When he was turned down for a law enforcement job, did he decide to become the Charles Bronson character in Death Wish?
(5) Had he already decided to kill the person who turned out to be Trayvon Martin before he called the NEN?
(6) Was the NEN call just a charade to kill a “dirtbag” and set up the SYG defense that would hopefully catapult him to fame and fortune for Walking Tall?
Professor, I’m not willing to grant Zimerman the ability to plot a career as “crime fighting avenger” that far ahead. It looks to me from everything he’s done that he’s simply impulsive and self-serving. He never sticks with anything (look at his grades. What’s so dificult about “Introduction to Criminal Justice”? Who couldn’t ace ICJ?)
Taking the ride-alongs was just another vicarious thrill (because he wasn’t doing any REAL thing that was thrilling in his life). But the next morning at the water cooler, George would be babbling away to impress his co-workers. He also used the ride-alongs as a conduit to the Chief — he e-mailed him. Whoever does that? Status-seeking George.
I think you are giving simple, self-interested, perpetual fuck-up and under-acheiver George Zimmerman too much of cinematic glow.
He’s a loser, and he got into a situation his limited mental skills could not have imagined, and he could figure only one way out of the mess he got himself into: kill the witness to the crime.
Oh yeah, there’s also the anger management issue.
Screwed up on that one, too.
Yes, I too try to keep as far away from “conspiracy theories” like making this murder 1, simply based on what I can theorize might have been in GZ head at the time.
So, impulsive action, goes a long way towards explaining that view.
Like a fish after bait on a hook, GZ get’s wrapped up in the chase, then the hunt. He’s already filled his mind with material needed to cover up his NW rule violations, so he then plunges wildly ahead.
Until the “smell of success” takes over and he grabs TM and tries to question him. All the while he’s thinking of “Boy, when the police get here what a hero I’ll be!”
That vision last until TM’s child like voice and responses sink in, and GZ realizes “Hey, I can’t sell this guy as a dangerous thug!”
That’s when his mind would start racing, he needs a story he can sell or…? It hits him “or what?” I’ve just apprehended an innocent kid, the police are going to have me for lunch! Worse yet, I have my gun with me, that’s going to compound the error. That’s when GZ thinks up a plan to get out of this mess he’s created. If he shoots the kid, the kid can’t tell his side of the story.
…And here’s where I always run into trouble. Where the hell does the blood and head wounds come from? They obviously pre-date the shot, and may very well pre-date the hunt/confrontation.
We don’t have the evidence needed for TM to have anything to do with GZ’s head wounds and bleeding. So where do these wounds come in? Some say it’s GZ being clumsy and slipping around on the grass, bashing his head into things. But, while on the hunt, it’s hardly likely he’d examine himself for wounds or bleeding, so how would he know that he has enough there to fill in his story?
Further, if he’d examined his head with his hands, they’d have been covered with blood, before he went for his gun. He’d have a mess of blood around where he had his holster and on the gun.
He, has fashioned his story before he took the shot, otherwise why take it, if it won’t cover anything up? He needs a murder that is useful, not one that merely makes matters worse. If so, then he has to know that he’s already wounded and bleeding. But, there’s no obviously logical time for him to discover this fact, if Trayvon cannot be the cause. And believe me GZ is not a clear thinker, he’s got TM discovering a gun it’s impossible for him to see or even feel, no matter what his shirt does.
So, with no blood messed hands, to show that he’s examined himself, and therefore knows he has useful wounds, he’s grabbing and holding TM’s garments, and leaving evidence that he doesn’t know how bad his own wounds are. That would be a big help to his story, if there was evidence that TM caused these wounds, but since the evidence goes the other way, it’s additional incriminating evidence.
The only answer that fit is, he only “supposedly” doesn’t know the nature of his wounds. When, in fact he does know, but how? Since he never examined them? This is what keeps stopping me cold in my tracks, as I try to resist letting conspiracy theories come in. Clearly I need help here! I’m not doing well on my own. Anyone?
Lonnie,
re: “Where the hell does the blood and head wounds come from? They obviously pre-date the shot, and may very well pre-date the hunt/confrontation. We don’t have the evidence needed for TM to have anything to do with GZ’s head wounds and bleeding. So where do these wounds come in? Some say it’s GZ being clumsy and slipping around on the grass, bashing his head into things. But, while on the hunt, it’s hardly likely he’d examine himself for wounds or bleeding, so how would he know that he has enough there to fill in his story? Further, if he’d examined his head with his hands, they’d have been covered with blood, before he went for his gun. He’d have a mess of blood around where he had his holster and on the gun.
GZ’s blood established on Kel-Tek gun butt .. how did this happen”.
Back-of-head injury happens immediately before GZ gets ascendancy at the end of the fight. No blood trail smeared by wet grass; earliest blood flow from head cuts pools at base of GZ neck. Did NOT happen “during the hunt.”
(Nose bashed by dog sign happened earlier – Trayvon may not have even been near that incident. GZ dropped his key/light as he reeled from his encounter with the vertical metal sign.)
Flash forward to end of struggle: GZ hits back of head on edge of sprinkler head (which are nasty devils if you contact one, with force, on unprotected skin) during final “roll on the grass” with Trayvon – the momentary pain may have given GZ the motivation to press his body upward and overcome Trayvon. But the PAIN in that scalp location ceases immediately. Starts BLEEDing as GZ gets the ascendancy, seated on Trayvon.
No lingering head pain, but sticky stuff reaches GZ’s neck in back and he can feel it. Left hand (dominant) is holding onto Trayvon’s shirts, for control. GZ reaches around to back of neck with his right hand to investigate stickiness.
Do it yourself. Instinct has you reaching around and setting the PALM OF YOUR HAND on the back of your neck Not your fingers.
GZ knows what happened. He’s bleeding.
Reaches for gun on right back back hip.
Bloody palm of GZ’s right hand wraps around gun butt.
GZ fires.
Throws gun away.
ME finds blood on gun butt; tests positive for GZ DNA.
Yes, yes… That’s close to the truth, so it makes sense. But if you try that with the assumption that GZ’s story is true, you lose most of what you’ve guessed at. My fault is I need to drop any remaining view that GZ has told any thing that is true at all. Because his story vs the evidence, leaves the question of where the wounds came from. But drop his story and assume more reasonable things that account for the evidence and viola, the mysteries go away.
Lonnie, we’ve all been schnookered for so long thinking ANY story by Zimmerman has ANY truth. While we learned that he was a big fat liar, we couldn’t imagine he would lie about EVERYTHING. It is hard to wrap our minds around a persnality that lies about every last thing. But everything this guy says is disputed by (a) evidence or (b) his “friends.”
I now firmly do NOT accept ANY Zimmerman crap that Trayvon laid a hand on him. SHOW ME THE PROOF! There isn’t any. It’s all just a disjointed story that Zimmerman put together to keep himself out of jail. Big motivation, that.
Trayvon literally comes to his autopsy “with clean hands.”
George’s hands are bloody.
Did you note how long it took — after the autopsy report said TM’s hands were clean — for even pro TM people to stop using “the fight” to work up their postings? I suspect that many continued to do so, because they needed a common point of reference to make their point(s). But then, even some “high level” posters (people whose posts clearly reflect they’ve dug in deeply and tried to match items with items), kept using it too. That prolonged the view that, for the casual reader, there actually was a fight, and that the debate was over “justified/not justified”. Then reporters (not just the media but blog reporters as well) would read these postings, to try to determine what is, from what is not, considered most widely acceptable material, and what views are scheduled to erode really soon. So they carried the idea of a fight along further.
I’m guilty of this too. Sometimes I used “the fight” as a reference, because you can’t just refute 10 issues in every post and expect it to be understood, so you try to focus on just the one that undercuts the largest or most critical part of the story, and work from there.
You don’t try to stop a skidding car, by abruptly jerking the wheel. You have to steer in the direction the car is moving first, then gently bring it back to where you want it to go. Same with posting ideas, you can’t stray too far from what the public has excepted already, before you try to correct. Do that and you risk losing the very people you’re trying to reach.
Which explains why we keep starting with what GZ said, even when we know it’s been falsified already. Thus we appear to be resurrecting old, already discredited material.
In truth? After watching GZ’s performance at the bail hearing, where I note this dramatic behavior, from a man facing life in prison, who should know better than to chase dollars at the risk of the credibility he needs to put this over. I can only find my self spasmodically thinking “stupid… STUPID… stupid… stupid and extremely stupid man!” Facing life in prison, where your word is all you have against the evidence, you go after a bushel of money you’ll never get to spend if you fail??? …AND jettison your credibility??? When it’s the only hope you have?
The people who took the chance to throw him a life preserver, now find themselves being dragged under with him, they’re scrambling to cut the rope!
Lonnie, thank you for putting so much thought into this process.
For the past two or three weeks I have been thinking (even though realizing it’s legally impossible) that Trayvon’s parents should be able to sue for defamation of their late son’s name and reputation.
NONE of the fighting was initiated by Trayvon, and he did not fight back.
Somewhere along the line it hit me that Zimmerman has made EVERYTHING up to save his sorry ass. It isn’t that he “embroidered,” he made it up out of whole cloth (how’s that for sustaining the metaphor?)
My interest at this time is to hone the issue down to its simplest components because that is what jurors’ brains can encompass.
I am not dissing jurors or their inteligence. There is an amazing spectrum of talents, experience and intelligence on juries. But they are in a pressure-cooker environment. They can’t research on their own. Some take notes – some sleep. But the leadership that emerges pulls them through to a verdict.
I have been opposed to the conspiracy idea. If the jury starts trying to unravel some purported conspiracy, Zimmerman will walk. This tragedy was caused solely by one loser’s hugely bad judgment and uncontrolled, unreasonable anger, plus narcissistic search for fame, approval, and career path advancement.
If Osterman or Taaffe tipped Zimmerman that a “stranger” was walking on the grounds, I don’t consider that a conspiracy. Was Taaffe home that night? Did he see Trayvon walking along outside his home? Was Osterman on his way over to the Zimmerman’s with the cash loan? We don’t know. The phone logs may help
But I don’t see either of those older guys, dim bulbs though they may be, ever sending Zimmerman off to kill,.
I also don’t see this as any way to promote an ARMED Neighborhood Watch at The Retreat. NW would not permit that. A private armed security service is VERY expensive. That HOA did not even have the money to install SPEED BUMPS in the road! Their insurance company would have jettisoned them in an instance if it learned the HOA was even considering an amateur armed patrol.
Because Zimmrman said “sign,” describing what he may have been bashed into, I am leaning toward the dog station sign for the nose bleed. Zimmerman may have dropped his light-key chain there, adjacent to it. In any case, I am accepting these as unilateral actions on Zimmerman’s part without interaction with Trayvon. There is NOTHING that proves Trayvon was up by the T. I’ll open my mind to this possibility ONLY if someone can show me something.
One final note re how Zimmerman’s thought processes work. You will recall an earlier fiancee filed a restraining order against Zimmerman because of his physical abuse, and he filed for an order against her. Her statement (interview) is one page in the documents. I was stunned to read it. She reported, in amazement, that HIS restraining order accused her of the very same physical abuse.
As we’ve seen it, “That’s so George!” He parrots.
He does not have the brains to come up with an original complaint.
As he is doing to Trayvon – bad, wretched stuff he did to Trayvon, he is saying Trayvon did to him.
I’ve lost my patience with this.
As far as conspiracy theories, they’ll stay here on the web, they’ll not enter a courtroom unless they are certifiable. That isn’t likely to happen and the SP will not waste time with them. Other people, on the web and elsewhere who are investigating on their own, may want to pay attention to any leads that may be found in such theories, as they have the luxury of not having to put on a case.
For example some investigative reporter (do we still have them?) might want to go door to door around the community, to ferret out more information about this secretive NW. It would probably make a very good salable story. Even if it goes no further than a “bedtime story”, it will probably sell well. It would probably be a big help around the nation, for reporters to try to “make their bones”, uncovering any secretive NW’s operating in their communities as well. Perhaps even catching them before they too explode onto the national stage.
I’ve got my new revision of my timeline up: http://zimmerman-vs-martin.blogspot.com/ it puts TM securely at the mailboxes with 12 minutes to spare by 6:54. Now I’m trying to locate George at and before that time. But there isn’t much to go on.
Jurors will only get what each side feels is difficult to challenge. That means, without GZ’s credibility to help them, MOM has to talk about things other than evidence. All he can do is stick to the emotional side of the case. Any time he wanders into the evidence side, he will be resoundingly beaten back. Do that too many times and the jury will be reaching for the fire axe themselves. Don’t do it, and the jury will believe there is no defense.
Meanwhile, every day GZ’s noose grows tighter and tighter as the nation continues to boil over his unspeakable actions. The good thing to come of this, is police departments across the nation, now know that the eyes of the nation can turn towards them, so they’re best warned to shape up! Politicians are learning to that they’d be flying blind without the internet. Best to know what people are thinking and, therefore, which way to move, than to guess wrong and risk turmoil and/or loss of support. The old games and ploys no longer work.
I should have responded to your comment on wheedling/expediting.
Actually, I should have said (and I think I’ve written this in the past) that he was SELLING Sean on the importance of his call, trying to make it a vastly greater CONCERN than it was. He hyped the situation. He was embellishing the truth (the truth that a kid is walking down the street).
With Zimmerman’s history of all those unproductive calls he had made to 911, he may have been counseled (by Sanford PD after his many contacts, or by the NW coordinator) to knock off the 911 calls and use 311. Definitely takes the edge off his self-importance.
But I don’t think even George is dumb enough to think up “I’m going for the slow response so I can corner this kid and put my gun in his face.”
I think Zimmerman’s fantasy of being “co-arrestor” along with the cops spun out of control. BUT he had time to decide to pull out his gun and kill his quarry.
And there was some payback involved, too – it was THIS KID’S FAULT that the whole scheme blew up, AND George’s precious body was bleeding. I don’t see that Zimmerman had his gun out of his holster until AFTER he had detained Trayvon. And Trayvon had tried to tell him he was living there, so it was slowly sinking into George that, geez, maybe the kid is legit. BUT THIS KID STILL HAD TO PAY FOR GEORGE’S NOSEBLEED.
So … BAM! And then Zimmerman started bulding his web of lies.
I’m with you all the way up to just past “maybe this kid is legit”. Because, if the “kid is legit”, GZ has to start thinking about the results and stories the police will hear when they arrive. If GZ has his gun out already, the kid holds the key to GZ’s jail cell. GZ knows, from his training and courses and all, that if the story ends here, with the police questioning them both, GZ is headed for jail, without a defense for his actions at all.
Lonnie – “if GZ has his gun out … ?”
I cannot in my wildest imagination consider GZ would draw the gun, chase around in the dark on wet grass, expose the gun to an opponent’s possibility of grabbing it and turning it on GZ, possibly GZ injuring himself in the fray. He’s walking around with a gun in one hand and a dead flashlight in the other?
NONE OF THE ABOVE.
What kind of a “hero” detains a “suspect” at gunpoint? An about-to-go-to-jail-civilian-non-hero, that’s the kind of “hero.” GZ knows that.
Zimmerman drew the gun just before the shot.
I dont feel Zimmerman will ever tell the reason he terrorized this kid. He stuck to his story, no matter if he was confronted with his lies.
However, to judge it via his actions and statements, I can give a sense of intent and motive.
1). Zimmerman planned to terrorize this kid, due to his resentment of Trayvon as he was a criminal in his mind (although Trayvon never did anything at all to Zimmerman before this encounter)
2). Due to his resentment, he did not want Trayvon to get away
3). Zimmerman planned to forcibly confine this kid
4). Trayvon attempted to defend and get away from the crazy creepy man. Zimmerman got angry and then wanted Trayvon to pay.
5). Zimmerman needed to get away with what he was doing, so he had to silence the witness.
I would say the main intent and motive was unreasonable resentment and to try to get away with his crimes before the killing.
jun:
re “5). Zimmerman needed to get away with what he was doing, so he had to silence the witness. I would say the main intent and motive was unreasonable resentment and to try to get away with his crimes before the killing.”
Agreed.
Even said on Hannity he “was running out of time.”
Fred~~ your snapshot was very impressive, very impressive. Funny how the word ‘snap shot’ just stood out to me… almost like Zimmerman firing the gun… Will we get to see your whole masterpiece at a later time? In other words the big picture?
One question if you have time… Isn’t there a stipulation that when out on bond, you cannot possess firearms or have them at your residence? Is this a given or does the judge have to spell it out in his bond order? TIA
The following link is re…Shellie Zimmerman may lost her conceal weapons license….
http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/20180186/article-Shellie-Zimmerman-may-have-concealed-weapons-license-suspended-by-State?instance=home_news_right
Excellent, Professor! A well learned lesson we’ve had.
[Remainder of response deleted with the author's consent. She was responding to Rise from below, who is yet another member of the Zim-Borg repeating the same old same old conclusory unsupported nonsense that we rejected long ago with forensic evidence.
Therefore, he shall remain Below.
So it shall be written, so it shall be done]
Quicker than a speeding bullitt Professor! I answered a ghost post
Remove mine if you like Professor.
“The human voice is a powerful musical instrument that all good trial lawyers learn to master.”
Like a tragic opera.
Professor – What do you think about playing up that the forensics will show that GZ didn’t have life threatening injuries, that TM didn’t have offensive wounds, etc.?
Seems to me there will be plenty of time for that.
Well, I liken winning the argument with the opening statement to an executive summary that hits all of the high points. We already know that the defense is going to play up self defense and GZ’s injuries. It seems like it would be better to address this sooner rather than later. It seems like it would be better to plant a seed with the jury that the forensics aren’t going to support life threatening injuries and that the jury should look for this. The absence of life threatening injuries to GZ and the absence of offensive wounds on TM should cripple GZ’s self-defense case and his use of lethal force. IMHO.
I think comparing an executive summary to an opening statement is a good comparison. But I’ve read an awful lot of awfully boring executive summaries. Come to think of it, I’ve listened to more than a few boring opening statements too.
I think I had 25-30 jury trials under my belt before I began to get a clue how important they were and how to do one right.
Yikes, I gave some awful ones.
Professor – Okay, I’m confused. I definitely write in a dry manner and not in a dramatic manner. So, it would be hard for me to write anywhere near as compelling as you write. I also don’t think I could be a lawyer, because I would get too emotionally involved. I can’t listen to the NEN tape over and over and over again.
I went back to read other comments you’ve made about opening statements. I must be misinterpreting them. For example, you said to lead with strength. My personal opinion is that the strongest part of the case is the lack of life threatening injuries. Without that, what is GZ left with in his self defense claim? Not much. Next, he could claim that TM reached for his gun. Ookaay. Well, who had concealed weapons permit training to protect his gun and who wasn’t even able to touch GZ’s gun because it didn’t have his DNA on it and who was able to touch his own gun and shoot someone through the heart? Game over, IMHO.
Then, the way GZ shot TM by pulling his clothing down and to the left with his left hand, aiming with his right hand, and shooting TM in the heart help justify the murder 2 charge.
I also remember reading that it’s best to present as little of GZ’s story as possible to help force him onto the stand to defend himself. For example, I’ve been waffling about how to describe the stalking. Is this still part of the approach?
Again, I’m confused. But, I don’t need to understand. I’m just asking out of curiosity.
Fred – is that you in the background, 14 seconds in?
Excellent. Composing and delivering opening statements/closing arguments is a skill with some more effective and talented, if you will, in that area than others
I’m confused about GZ using his right hand to shoot and he’s left-handed. Don’t you think the defense will argue that point and how do you explain that?
Semiautomatics are designed to eject spent cartridges generally to the right because most people are right handed. Semiautomatics that eject spent casings to the left are difficult to find, so most left handers learn how to shoot right handed guns with their right hands and end up owning one.
This is what GZ did and the defense will not be disputing this fact.
For example, if you watch him in the video, he shoots with his right hand.
On Dr. Phil’s program with Osterman, there is a photo of Osterman and GZ at a shooting range. GZ is shooting while holding the gun with both hands. Before seeing that, I asked myself when does a person (other than in wild west movies), ever draw, aim and shoot with one hand?
Would this be a matter where an expert witness can be called?
Xena, Zimmerman’s dominant arm/hand, which is his most powerful, was used to grab Trayvon by the shirts.
Thus he CONTROLLED Trayvon so Trayvon could not escape when he menaced Trayvon with the gun.
By CONTROLLING Trayvon’s movements, he could take the time, aim for the “sweet spot” and shoot Trayvon right in the heart.
Now, this PROVES Zimmerman was not in fear for his life.
He had the gun out and was CONTROLLING Trayvon.
Zimmerman had PLENTY OF TIME to reflect on killing Trayvon.
Zimmerman could EASILY have said to Tayvon, “Shut up! The cops will be here any minute.”
That is why his decsion was DEPRAVED.
Zimmerman KNEW the cops were on their way. He KNEW he would get a call on his cellphone when they arrived. Sean, the 311 Dispatcher, ASSURED GZ he had his cell number and repeated it to GZ – and GZ responded, “You got it.”
What kind of a stone-hearted idiot would shoot a scared kid POINT BLANK with cops literally two minutes away? When he was ZERO threat to GZ?
I’ll tell you what kind of a stone-hearted idiot would do this: one who would be in BIG trouble with the law, the HMO, and his family by holding an innocent juvenile at gunpoint.
A stone-hearted idiot who failed hs Anger Mnagemement Training.
(And I’m just wondering if the 311 phone records and GZ’s cell phone records show the call-back to GZ when SPD arrived that night … )
In addition to Professor’s and Xena’s responses, I’ve read that people prefer shooting with the eye that is dominant, rather than the hand that is dominant. Most (?) left-handed people are right eye dominant. So, it shouldn’t be surprising that GZ shoots with his right hand.
I don’t find it odd that GZ would shoot with his right-hand. What I do find odd is that he would aim and shoot with one-hand.
Xena – I was trying to response to LJ that it isn’t surprising that he didn’t shoot with his left hand as his main hand. So, even if GZ normally shot two-handed, it wouldn’t be surprising if his right hand were on the trigger. I think it’s pretty apparent from the reenactment video and video stress test that his right hand was his main hand and that he shot TM, in particular, with his right hand.
LongTime, I’m right-handed, shoot right-handed (but with the weight of a 9-shot Colt-style revolver, prefer to shoot two-handed) but you’re right – I’m left-eye dominant.
I think it’s what you get used to.
I wink with my right eye.
Patricia – Look at me talk about guns. I’ve only shot a gun or rifle a couple times in my life. I don’t remember which eye was dominant, but I just checked again. I’m right handed and left-eye dominant, too! What do I know. But, I’ve read about this case a lot.
I’m also now remembering that I read that almost all guns are right-handed guns. If I remember correctly, guns provided to the military are right handed. So, again, it shouldn’t be surprising that GZ used his right hand as his main hand.
I understand that longtimegeek. Sorry, I’m tired and not articulating or expressing myself well. When I had shooting lessons, I was instructed on how to hold the gun with one hand under the other in order to manage recoil. That is how GZ is shooting in the pic with Osterman. Connect that dot with GZ’s re-enactment where his right arm is free.
The other dot is that he stated in an interview that he made sure his right arm was out of the way so he wouldn’t shoot it.
Patricia just pinpointed what I’ve seen with the dots connected; i.e., GZ was holding on to Trayvon’s shirts with his right hand, and he pressed the gun against the shirts.
I just listened to the 911 tape again with the screams. There is a very short hesitation shortly after Jeremy speaks. I heard GZ’s voice and it sounded like the “f” word — couldn’t make out the rest. Then there is a painful scream followed by a long “no” and the gunshot.
The connected dots compared with the tape convey that GZ had his right hand over Trayvon’s mouth, “Shut the f—k up” was stated by GZ who then moved his hand, and used some type of painful, physical force on Trayvon just before shooting him in the heart.
Xena, my understanding of the body action is that GZ grabbed TM’s shirts in his dominant hand (left) as soon as he could get control. Then drew his gun from his holster with his right hand, reaching back to his “right back hip,” as he says and shows on the video.
I have never believed GZ drew his gun earlier, then ran around on the wet slippery grass in the dark, or flopped around on the wet grass in the dark in a quasi-wrestling mode with a gun in one hand.
Too easy to lose the gun that way, shoot yourself or have it grabbed from you, and you are the one who gets shot.
The Kel-Tek has no safety
You draw the gun when you are ready to shot and it is safe to do.
Until he drew the gun, Zimmerman had an arm/hand available to inflict pain on Trayvon.
I believe GZ was sitting on Trayvon, as Trayvon was so slender, he had captured Trayvon under him with Trayvon’s arms at his sides. In other words, GZ was saddled over Travons arms and waist.
Easy for GZ to then draw his gun.
Thus, Trayvon had NO hands to defend himself or lash out at GZ’s face (and did not get any of GZ’s nosebleed on his hands.) GZ could be twisting TM’s ear – or just pointing the muzzle of the gun into Travon’s face, for the terrible scream. I don’t think Trayvon knew a gun was involved until the last minute.
Xena – No worries! I’m tired, too. I try to help people asking questions, but I don’t articulate well, especially in areas that I don’t know much about or remember very well. Typically, I know better than to even try.
Sorry Patricia. I confused right-hand with left-hand. You are correct. GZ held with his left-hand and shot with his right.
I’m a left in everything but swinging a bat or golf club. I’m also left-eye dominant. I did a bit of rifle shooting many years ago. It was single shot with a manual ejection. I had to lower the rifle to eject the shell. No speed shooting from me.
Professor, I love the simplicity with which your opening statement captures the essence of what happened that evening, and what has kept so many focused on the outcome of this case.
On a side note, my grandson’s language arts class just began reading the book “To Kill a Mockingbird”. When he told me this, it occurred to me…Trayvon Martin is our Mockingbird.
@Vicky. I was going to embed Atticus’ closing argument, but the entire segment is a bit too long.
Please remember that injustice prevailed in that story, because the jury insisted on believing the implausible in order to maintain social hierarchies.
Yes, injustice did prevail (with the exception of the death of Bob Ewell) in To Kill a Mocking Bird, and it could again if some knuckle dragging bigot manages to find it’s way onto the jury.
But, that does not change the fact that Trayvon, who was innocent of any wrongdoing, was shot and killed for no acceptable reason. And in my opionion, the bigotry that runs deep in the hearts and minds of many who have chosen to support George Zimmerman is just as vile as it was in the story, as is the notion that social hierarchies could determine the outcome of this trial.
The injustice has already occurred for Trayvon and his family. Trayvon not only lost his innocence that evening, he lost his life. His family lost their child and their opportunity to watch him grow as a human being. They have been afforded some level of justice, but nothing will ever equal the injustice they have already experienced.
I like the ending. It appeals to everyone’s sense of fairness and justice, and to do right by the kid
Disagree with the start. It should start with the defendant
“TM was walking home when the GZ spotted him. TM left GZs view and GZ continued to pursue.
TM it will be shown did not know who the man was. Nor it will be shown did GZ identify himself to his victim.
GZ had many opportunities to prevent this death.
So, that you will understand it,….”
WHat you said from there./
But I would already be building in the jury’s mind that evidence starts before the killing.
The problem with your approach is that it suggests that the incident, the killing,w as where the crime started.
We want the jury to already be thinking of this as one event over several minutes in which GZ made several choices that lead to the death.
I don’t get that from your opening statement.
You are burying that in the middle.
Stories have a beginning, middle and end. I know you want to get to the horrific end, but it hurts the narrative. If you want GZ to sound like a man pursuing this kid- make it sound like a man pursuing this kid.
Let the hunting part become a part from the start of the jury’s since of what happened.
I like the point that you are making here…actually I like all the points you usually make.
Thank you
I generally agree with your comment.
Please keep in mind that my opening statement was just a “snapshot” of a part of an opening statement that I would make.
I offered it for illustrative purposes.
I’ve been a juror on several trials, including a second degree murder case, and I don’t remember any of the opening statements being as good as yours, Mr Leatherman.
I wonder if the deputy DA caseload is high enough where they simply don’t have the time to fashion them this carefully?
See the part where its about the case, not the prosecutor’s ego? Now that you’ve pointed it out, the ego needs seem so obvious in retrospect in many of the cases I’ve seen. I’ll pay extra attention next time.
Thanks!
How is it decided who goes first with evidence and witnesses and how its plotted out during trial?
The one whose petition is before the court is the party that goes first. For the immunity hearing, it will be GZ’s petition, so the defense presents why GZ should be immune from prosecution, and the State then presents its case. Since the judge decides, chances are that the parties will be asked to file memorandums rather than conduct closing argument.
For trial, it’s the opposite since the State filed the charges. The State opens with its statement first, followed by the defense. The State also presents its case, (witnesses, evidence) first, followed by the defense. Same for closing arguments — State then defense.
great post
There has to be a way to include this statement by Zimmerman into the opening
Tzar, It still tears my heart to hear that. IMO a good prosecution will make sure that is played many times, if allowed. And Gz saying “that doesn’t even sound like me”, should be played over and over! Friends, family, ect who say it sound like this one or that one……moot…..Gz’s own words uttered when he first heard the recording is so compelling.
Professor, could that be considered as an excited utterance by George? Aren’t excited utterances considered to be true utterances vs later statements?
You said,
Zimmerman’s statement is admissible, if offered by the prosecution as an admission by a party opponent. For obvious reasons the defense has no reason to bring it up. Assuming for the sake of argument that it did, however, the statement would be admissible under the present sense impression and excited utterance exceptions to the hearsay rule.
Once a statement has been admitted into evidence, there is no presumption that any particular statement is more valid than any other. There are arguments, such as the one to which you refer in which earlier statements are arguably more accurate and reliable than later statements, but our legal system lets juries decide all credibility issues. That is, judges decide what statements to admit or exclude, pursuant to the rules of evidence, and juries decide how much weight to assign to any statement.
When a jury reaches a guilty verdict, an appellate court will presume there was an adequate factual basis to support the verdict, unless the defendant/appellant can show that, even if all of the evidence supporting the verdict is presumed to be true, it still does not support the verdict. This rule illustrates the respect and trust that appellate judges accord to juries to correctly decide issues of credibility and their understandable reluctance to second-guess jury decisions when they were not present to observe the trial.
I mention this last point because many people in this country mistakenly assume that adverse factual determinations by juries can be relitigated on appeal. This is not true as long as there is some evidence in the record that would establish each element of the crime charged, if that evidence were assumed to be true.
2-4 inches is not indicative of GZ grabbing and holding TM’s sweater. That action would be shown by exceeding a distance of more than 6 inches. 2-4 inches is insufficient, even at the maximum. A 4×6 photograph will give one an idea of just how short 4 inches is. TM’s sweater was loose fitting, adding to a greater distance if GZ held it, while TM pulled away. You will not see the prosecutor make such an amateurish statement, that can so easily be destroyed by the defense.
Often there is a difference between what one would like the evidence to be and what it is.
I composed my opening statement based on what Dr. di Maio said.
Therefore, this comment is unwarranted:
If a prosecutor misstates the evidence in an opening statement, the defense attorney will use the misstatement to maximum advantage arguing that the jury cannot trust the prosecutor.
Misstating the evidence in an opening statement is an amateurish mistake that an experienced prosecutor would never make.
Thanks for providing me with an opportunity to demonstrate that point.
Having said that, Dr. di Maio did not conduct the autopsy and he was not present to observe it. He reviewed the report and expressed his opinion.
The ME who conducted the autopsy did not estimate the distance in inches. He wrote” “intermediate range.”
And 2-4 inches is within intermediate range.
I’m going to stick with Dr. di Maio’s estimate because I lack sufficient information at this time to disagree with him.
If I were the prosecutor in this case, I would discuss this matter with the ME and the analyst, Amy Siewert, who examined the sweatshirts and I would study the photographs of the wound and the holes in the sweatshirts before composing my opening statement.
I didn’t argue against Dr. di Maio’s conclusion of describing the gun being discharged 2-4 inches from TM’s body. Stating that piece of evidence would not be amateurish because it looks to be supported by the evidence and agreed upon by all involved.
I argued against stating that that distance indicated that GZ held TM’s sweater so he couldn’t get away when he fired his gun. The 2-4 inch distance is not indicative of that, and stating that it is in an opening statement is amateurish.
You counterargument supposed that there was disagreement with the Dr.’s conclusion when it was really a disagreement with an extrapolation that the Dr. has never made a public statement about.
You said,
You’re shimmying and you’re still wrong because I said GZ held him at gunpoint as he gripped the sweatshirt pulling it down.
Please explain the basis for your hostile statement.
Oh, I get it, now, DSal – you want the air gap to be caused by Trayvon holding his shirt away from his body, saying, “Shoot me, Homie!”
You don’t want to face the fact that bouncer Zimmerman grabbed and detained Martin by grasping his shirts, was in control of Martin, and cold-bloodedly EXECUTED Martin – do you?
Because that would be Murder in the Second Degree.
Prepare thyself, Homie — the verdict will be sooner than you think!
Professor. Pls, delete my first post if possible (‘seems I am the king of typing error)
I can certainly envision a distance of 2 – 4 inches from the body while in contact with the sweatshirt WHILE the shooter holds the victim by his clothing. The victim can be afraid to pull away at that point, seeing the gun; he can freeze in place and scream; he can feel a bit faint and actually lean forward for a second or two; he can be wailing and take a deep breath, bringing his torso closer to the shooter. Etc.
Mr. Leatherman I have not shimmied from anything. I said exactly what I said before. You misunderstood what I said so I clarified. I am not wrong, either. Pulling a loose sweatshirt is going to produce a distance further than 2-4 inches. A tight-fitting t-shirt can be pulled more than 4 inches. All one needs to do is try on their own shirt to see that this is the case. I have not been hostile. To provide this extrapolation in an opening statement is amateurish. I didn’t say you were amateurish. It was the same case during the OJ trial when the glove was made such a big deal. That was an amateurish move, because it allowed OJ to make the glove appear not to fit.
It was a clever move, one that allowed them to explain why they lost the case, without having to get into the fact that RG’s car was parked on Dorothy near the alleyway for several days, and that he went to it first, then left a trail of blood up Dorothy to Bundy, then all the way around to the front gate. How do you suppose that happened while OJ was supposedly offing Nicole? But hey, let’s not re try the OJ case here, we’ve got enough on our hands. Eh?
You said,
Depends how you pull it and whether Martin is moving.
For example, if TM is stationary in a vertical position and GZ is clutching both sweatshirts with his left hand pulling them down and slightly to the left when he squeezes off a shot with the gun he’s holding in his right hand, the alignment of the two holes in the sweatshirts with the wound will be consistent with a shot fired 2-4 inches from the chest with the muzzle in contact with the fabric.
As long as the positions of the two people remain constant relative to each other, you can place them in any number of positions and get the same result. For example, they could have been kneeling facing each other or standing facing each other or TM could have been lying on his back with GZ above him.
TM above GZ is ruled out because, due to gravity, the sweatshirts would sag more than 2-4 inches.
TM’s immobility would be assured by the combination of the grip on the sweatshirts and the gun pointed at him.
There is nothing amateurish about that part of the opening statement.
What the hell are you talking about?
DSal, you are forgetting that the muzzle of the Kel-Tek poked INTO the stretched fabric, which then contained the GSR within the air space and prevented it from vaporizing (for want of a more precise word) all over Zimmerman. That poke would shorten the distance between muzzle and flesh.
Go out and grab some sweatshirt yourself and poke it with a stick and you’ll see what I mean. No rocket science involved, sweetie.
What you are really objecting to is this proof that Zimmerman grabbed Martin by the shirts and retained, controlled and prevented Trayvon Martin from escaping. Then GEORGE ZIMMERMAN EXECUTED TRAYVON MARTIN in cold blood.
Why do you think Zimmerman would say HE HAD TO BE CAREFUL HE DIDN’T SHOOT HIS OTHER HAND?
Because the hand that grasped the handful of sweatshirts was so near the gun muzzle – bare inches away.
Yep, your hero said all that. Pity …
Yes, I think what he meant was that he didn’t want the muzzle flash to burn his hand. Could that be it?
No Lonnie, not so subtle. I don’t think the “flash factor” was foremost in Zimmerman’s mind. It was more primitive (basic) than that –” I don’t want to shoot myself in the process.”
Look at GZ’s history with guns – all playtime with his Hero. GZ never had his hand so close to the muzzle all the times he was out shooting with Ostergoof.
Trayvon had a narrow chest, and GZ in those days had a fat hand. So, grabbing a wad of 2 layers of knit sweatshirt material to “capture & restrain” Trayvon makes a big mass on top of Trayvon’s narrow chest – and his own hand on the Kel-Tek was also beefy.
My guess was that GZ poked that muzzle into the hoodie maybe AT MOST 2″ away from his left hand. The surface of the hoodie would function like a trampoline does – gives a bit under pressure. He would be STEADYING the muzzle of the gun by pressing it into the fabric. It also protected him some from recoil (I’ve never fired a Kel-Tek so I have no idea what the recoil force would be.)
But – that was a factor George had to mull over – “How do I off this guy without injuring my good hand?” And he was surprised he could do that.
The shooting was deliberate — to solve Georgie’s “problem.”
@Patricia: I see, I somehow keep thinking that GZ’s grabbing the garments lower down, where his hand would not be a problem. Because, I keep trying to honor his claims that TM was some kind of near match to himself combat wise.
Grabbing a person high up on the chest is like uber uber aggressive, it’s a terrible challenging threat all by itself. As any male knows, who has been in a volatile situation, where an insult like an open handed slap leaves no room for any other response but to fight. This is not something anyone would or could do, if they’re facing someone of near equal strength/skill because it would make a more determined adversary of them.
Believe me, if TM ever had the upper hand at all, GZ would not be grabbing him high on his chest. That’s a move that is made, only by a person with clear and unchallenged force superiority over the other.
For example, Mike Tyson could walk over and slap GZ, obviously, GZ would be made terribly angry by it, but, unless he had a death wish, there would be little he would try to do, other than talk. But, on the other hand, GZ would not ever, never, not in a million years, even think of slapping Mike Tyson, there’s just no vision of confidence that he’s going to survive the comeback.
So, has GZ left the “fingerprints” of a clearly confident superior here?
Lonnie, you are a deep thinker about the initiation of male-on-male aggression. I love the image of Mike Tyson responding to any attempt by Zimmerman – Yo! Hand me that ear!
My expectation is this – when Zimmerman got the chance to grab, he reached out and grabbed where he could.
As LLLMPapa showed in his video, given the height disparity (4″) between GZ and Trayvon, if GZ extended his shooting arm, the gun muzzle would be at heart height. Same for GZ’s fist.
Whatever position they were in AT THE POINT OF ASCENDANCY AND CONTROL (GZ seated on Trayvon, and looming over Trayvon – as shown by the blood trail on GZ’s head and as witnessed by the teacher from her upstairs window, she said that GZ rose from the body right after the shot) GZ would FIRST grab for the shirt as a way to SECURE CONTROL), to keep Trayvon from escaping AND to control Trayvon from somehow harming GZ.
So, the GRAB/CONTROL came first – not as a way to position the shot, but as a way for GZ to SECURE “the suspect.”
Lonnie, GZ would not be picky about what he would grab – he would reach out and grab what he could. BY THAT POINT in the struggle he no longer gave ANY consideration to Trayvon being a physically superior being – Trayvon NEVER attacked him (no GZ blood or DNA on Trayvon’s hands).
Nor had Trayvon been a verbal aggressor. Probably still had his teen voice – not all that commanding. Trayvon had simply asked “Why you following me for?” which is quite respectful, considering he could have lashed out with “What the fuck you followin’ me for, asshole? Get the hell outta my space!”
(Actually, verbal aggression works really well, especially when you have no other weapon; did for me in a potentially deadly attempted rape in shallow, rocky water in Mexico where a woman had been drowned in similar circumstances two weeks earlier. Probably helped my case that my Spanish is not that great so I interjected French, German, etc. at salient points – my rage was clear if my words were not – I was doing this for effect, as the “verbal shield” was all the protection I had -, and the teen backed off, figuring this crazy woman was just too much trouble – “Y quien sabe? Possible loca y peligrosa!”)
So Trayvon was neither a physical or verbal aggressor towards GZ by the time GZ managed to grab the shirts. It was sort of like grabbing the reins of a horse, one-handed. You have to keep one hand free to fight. That is how horse-mounted cavalry ride – your right hand is reserved for your lance (factoid here — did you know there is a little cup mounted outside the right stirrup to rest your lance in?).
GZ was enraged, but not because TM dissed him, GZ was enraged because the encounter was turning into a legal nightmare for GZ, and GZ – I expect entirely because of his own stumbling around – after all, he included “sign” as something his head could have connected to, and the only sign was at the dog-poop station – but for whatever reason, GZ was bleeding and he could feel the sticky stuff on his face – so the fact that GZ was getting some kind of physical punishment, ENRAGED GZ – a typical bully’s reaction. Bleeding is always supposed to happen to the OTHER guy.
Also, consider this: with Trayvon on the ground, Trayvon’s body weight, 155 lbs – for a skinny kid, it’s mostly in the torso – would anchor the back of the shirts to the ground. So the portion available with stretch would be the front. We are not talking about a lot of yardage here, just enough for GZ to grab and pull to exert force. It’s simply a holding/controlling pattern. GZ would be sitting on the lower portion of the shirt front – hard to know where the tea/skittles/pocket would be. If somebody’s sitting 207 lbs. on top of a can of iced tea THAT IS PRESSING INTO YOUR GUT that, in itself is going to make you scream. I have always hoped that fiber analysis would be made that shows hoodie fibers on the outside of GZ’s jeans crotch area – “the saddle area” – to establish their positions. (We may yet see that.)
So, what I have been saying is, grab first, for control. Then reach for your gun, easily sliding it out of your waistband holster, from your right back hip, lean forward, place the gun carefully perpendicular to the chest where you know the victim’s heart would be, then fire.
Not a whole lotta psychology going on here, Lonnie.
Just dispatching the screaming victim.
Well, that’s pretty much it then, if she saw them when the shot was fired and someone get up, without rolling a body off them, then it’s the shooter on top. Nor did GZ care about the possibilities. So then, how did he become convinced that the SPD would rally to his side? Obviously he had to start with that knowledge, since every time before this one, he properly restrained himself. This time he starts out unrestrained and keeps building towards a kill, even avoiding any path that might have prevented it.
I don’t think he’d have gone forward with this conduct, if the SPD had warned him that, this kind of conduct would land him in jail. He somehow gained the illusion that he was going to find support in law enforcement, and for the first 46 days he was right. So who led him to believe he could get away with it? …And why?
Lonnie, how did GZ get away with this for so long?
Good Ole Boy School at SPD.
Zimmerman had insinuated himself into the sytem.
In fact, first cop to arrive knew him.
Daddy Zim had clout with the DA which he pushed ASA.P
Chief Bill Lee gave lazy racist leadership to his Dept.
If Trayvon really WAS a local goon,
likely he wouldn’t have had
the solid middle-class parents
who knew what justice really stood for,
and demanded it.
Credit those wonderful parents
for being the catalyst that brought forth
“Justice for Trayvon.”
Credit Trayvon himself for that long, agonized scream
that lit the world’s conscience on fire.
Zimmerman’s days of freedom were then numbered.
@Lonnie -
“So, has GZ left the “fingerprints” of a clearly confident superior here?”
YES.
Just sent you the long answer, so YES is the short one.
GZ is a bully.
GZ already referred to Trayvon as “the kid” to Sean, the 311 NEN dispatcher.
By the time GZ is in a position to grab Trayvon’s shirts to control and detain him (and buoyed by the knowledge of the Kel-Tek on his right back hip) GZ is the “clearly confident superior here.”
But it was his physical position vis-a-vis Trayvon that decided where GZ would grab the shirts to control Trayvon.
Just grabbed what was in front of him.
Then made sure he didn’t shoot his grabbing hand,
back when the report came out, I read somewhere that intermediate range is defined as 4-8 inches, I will post the link if I can find it
Down and left and away > away.
Tzar intermediate range could be as much as 18 inches, but as little as 1 inch. Dr. Di Maio analyzed the effects of the gunshot to come up with the 2-4 inch range.
That is not correct.
Intermediate range is 0.5 centimeter (a little less than 1/4 inch) to 1 meter (39 inches)
Forensic Science 2d edition, An Introduction to Scientific & Investigative Techniques, Edited by Stuart James & John Nordby (2005 CRC Press), p. 48.
Mr. Leatherman you’ll have to take your disagreement up with Dr. Michael Baden, who is a world-renowned pathologist.
Dr. Michael Baden, the former New York City medical examiner, said “intermediate” in such cases is defined as the muzzle of the gun being one to 18 inches away from the entry point when fired.
The prosecution said within an arm’s length. Personally I feel he gripped Trayvon by the sweater, Zimmerman held the gun, contacting the sweater, & the muzzle was 12 – 18 inches away. Also, Trayvon’s hoodie was not baggy. Look at the 7-11 still. it is not a baggy loose fitting hoodie. We will find out at trial as I am sure they conducted tests, as the range depends on the gun. From my reading its a foot to 3.5 feet. I am guessing I am correct as the prosecution said within an arm’s length. 1 inch to a foot is close range.
Most importantly, Zimmerman is boxed in by his stalking chasing hunting and forcible confinement of a kid by holding him by the shirt, threatening him with a gun.
DSal, remember that TM was shot in the chest area. If someone pulls on a t-shirt or sweatshirt, the chest area part of the shirt would be pulled down less than the area further down.
@DSal,
You come across as very angry. Obviously something got you upset. Surely you can present an alternative analysis based on the known evidence, make intelligent counter-arguments and draw conclusions we can all discuss here. I assume you are here to debate and not to agitate. Manup then and debate! It’s a challenge. BTW. I know you come from the conservativetreehouse.
I offered a critique of an opening statement and why it wouldn’t happen that way. That is part of debating.
Do I say something about the personal attack and the conservativetreehouse or do I just let it go and let you make up your own mind, since you will anyways? Tough choice.
How about this: The conservativetreehouse is filled with a bunch of far-right, religious fanatics that I do not have any association with. So, what you think you know, you do not.
TM’s sweatshirt and shirt were pulled down and to the left as well.
So if Z’s left hand were gripping T’s shirts, T was twisting away towards his right. Perhaps that is why these baggy clothes were 2″ to 4″ away from T’s skin at moment of shot, instead of against the skin (as s/b the case in Z’s scenario) or further away (DSal’s commentat 9:03).
If candy+soft drink were in hoody pocket, Z must have grabbed the center of T’s hoody, and indeed would have needed to be careful not to shoot his own hand, as he said himself.
You got it, FedUp. Zimmerman had to be careful not to shoot his left hand that was grasping Trayvon’s sweatshirt(s), which was controlling Trayvon and preventing his escape, while Zimmerman AIMED and then fired.
No spur-of-the-moment panic here.
No need to shoot, either.
Cops were on their way, and the “suspect” was under Zimmerman’s control.
Actually, there was panic on Zimmerman’s part. He knew he would be arrested for stalking, detaining (and likely kidnaping, if he moved Trayvon any distance) a juvenile at the point of a gun.
Ahead: big time in stir.
Bad future: goodbye Judge Zimmerman, hello rape victim Georgie.
And imediately, everybody whose opinion he valued, would laugh at him – and worse.
All this would happen if Trayvon lived two minutes longer.
George took control of his future.
He executed Trayvon Martin.
longtimegeek the goal is to overcome reasonable doubt and this does not help that along.
what’s 2 inches between friend?
That’s what she said.
At Dsal
its not amateurish. How do explain the mismatched and un-aligned bulletholes of the sweater and the entry wound in the chest? The examiner had to forcibly pull the sweater down to line up the bulletholes. The sweater showed a contact shot and the entry wound showed immediate range. You also need your eyes checked because hishoodie and undershirt were not baggy. In fact, the examiner had to forcibly pull the hoodie and undershirt together. It couldnt be a loose fitting hoodie if it stuck to the undershirt that well for Zimmerman to grab together, just as the examiner had to do to line up the holes.
DSal -
1) Trayvon was a thin guy in a loose-fit hoodie/sweatshirt (2 items)
2) The ME still has the shirts for measurement.
3) The ME no longer has Trayvon – but because his height/weight are known and his build thus estimated, a torso/manikin can be constructed. Likely styrofoam construction weighted with lead (just place dive belt weights in the back of the manikin.)
4) Zimmerman was not pinching the shirts together, he was grasping the shirts, and how much bulk was grasped is unknown.
5) Photos of Zimmerman’s hands were photographed that night by SPD so a very reasonable estimate can be made of hand size, to find a “performer” to replicate the pull/distance away for Trayvon’s trunk and how much could be grasped. It had to be considerable, to restrain Trayvon. The void (space between interior surface of inner shirt and Trayvon’s torso) would then be measured.. Note: it could have been pull;ed straight out, or at an angle. Various aspects should be measured. Addtionally, tsts should be made with the torso maniking on the ground (fabric stretch in the back area limited), vs. free-standing, vs “in a kneeling position being pulled up from the ground by the shirts” – noting the “sag weight.”
6) I refute your reference to “amateurish.” We necessarily rely on the authorities to provide evidence. That is how we are able to review the the early ballistic tests.
7) I would certainly expect the prosecution to be preparing its exhibits and testing and retesting its forensic evidence. That’s part of the work they do. We are not empowered as a government agency to have access to that evidence, but some reports have been made public.
8) We go by what we get from the authorities. We are always open to new or newly-amplified evidence. We study everything.
In conclusion, do you really expect the prosecution to go into court armed ONLY with what the public knows now? Without test & exhibits?
Patricia I don’t expect the prosecution to go in unprepared, but everything you’ve studied has been done in a vacuum of like-mindedness. Consequently, the path of observation has been skewed. When the prosecution does its opening, don’t expect to see the sweater being pulled or grabbed as a contention it puts forth. You’ll save yourself the feeling of disappointment, most likely in the prosecution, but, hopefully, in how your thinking developed, as well.
DSal, who said all the sweater-stretching was going to be described in the Opening? That’s the sort of stuff that goes on in Expert Testimony. Show & tell.
I do expect the Opening to include a statement that GZ confronted and FORCIBLY RESTRAINED Trayvon Martin, preventing him from escape – forcibly restraining him AT THE POINT OF A GUN.
You do recall Zimmerman’s work history as a bouncer, don’t you?
Ain’t going to be pretty for your boy.
Frederick Leatherman said:
September 18, 2012 at 10:03 am
O’Mara is in an extremely difficult situation with limited options.
He has to maximize the severity of GZ’s wounds and claim TM caused them, as opposed to GZ running into a tree or falling down and hitting his head against something.
He needs some expert testimony to support his argument, so he needs to be shopping around to find a couple of ER docs who will testify that the injuries are consistent with GZ’s explanation of what happened and, because of the amount of bleeding, a person suffering those injuries might well freak out and believe the injuries were serious and they were in imminent danger of death.
*****************
How bout a longtime ER nurse with a masters & years of experience saying, “HELL TO THE NO”. As I pointed out back in the beginning with the photo’s taken at the police headquarters…..ain’t no way.
First, people get grossed out at seeing blood, and it looks way more than it really is. The proof needed is 1st the paramedic on the scene did not think there was any need for a bandage to be applied with heavy tape on it to help stop the bleeding. Second, when someone is bleeding APPLY PRESSURE and transport to ER if bleeding does not stop. Third, a person with a loss of blood so great that they would be feeling the effects WOULD NOT be standing up walking around. Fourth, George had to ASK, “Am I bleeding??????”.
Did Gz feel confused, woozy, disoriented, pain, shortness of breath, paleness, blueness around his mouth or fingernails, stumble as he moved around….want me to continue? We’ve covered the broken nose, the head injury, the banging of the head on concrete. So any reputable ER doctor, neurologist, ect. would say maybe, woulda, shoulda, but doesn’t appear to be in my expert opinion.
But, watch out for those doc-in-a box’s….you know sort of like a shyster lawyer….be sure you get a good reputable one who loves his field and can tell you the first initial flow of blood from the head wounds flowing down behind Gz’s ears, down his face and pooling in his beard rather than flowing ANYWHERE on his shirt collars….flowed WHILE the man was bent over. AND, no it did not flow while sitting in the back seat of a police car. The little streams of blood flowing DOWNWARDS on his head happened after the initial gush. Probably as the wound was either rubbed by Gz’s hands or cleaned by paramedic. That reopens the clotted off blood vessels and allows a little bit of blood to start flowing again.
My proof, evidence is: The photo’s, witnesses accounts, Gz’s actions, and the medical and paramedic’s reports….
All I can say is shop around O’Mara for that shyster doc….the prosecution has some with outstanding credentials to counter your claims…..and the jury ain’t stupid!
my rebuttal to the Professor (without proof reading)
I obviously agree with you.
O’Mara has to shop around for the best whore the defense fund can afford, assuming Zimmerman hasn’t spent all the money on his security entourage.
What little money is coming in, is being squandered on MOM’s billable hours, going through Trayvon’s records, in hopes of making him into a ninja thug boy. Good luck widdat! lol.
Agreed on the small cuts, ie “Hell to the Hell no,” otherwise known as GOMER: Get Out of My Emergency Room.
In plain English, GZ did not have injuries that warranted an ER visit. So, maybe that’s why he declined to go (although my alternate theory is that he may have been concerned about a possible tox screen).
Either that or have a medical doctor look at the wounds and say: “minor wounds 5 to 6 hours old! Or even 3 to 4 hours old, GZ would be in some pickle then, eh?
Good call!
You are a WONDERMENT, Hinkster! We love you and honor you!
May your force be with us – always!
I awoke from the best dream this morning. I dreamed that the trial had concluded and the jury went to deliberate. The word went out that the verdict was in. The courtroom was full of anticipation and electricity to where you could feel the buzz.
The jury began to file in and a gasp came from somewhere in the courtroom, then complete silence.
All of the jurors filed in wearing hoodies.
lol what a picture!
ha ha ha
that was awesome
Rachael – love, love, love that!
George Zimmerman’s friend who hid him speaks out
http://georgezimmermannews.net/george-zimmermans-friend-who-hid-him-speaks-out/
Osterman says he did not coach Zimmerman on what to say to investigators about the Stand Your Ground defense.
“He went through training himself to get the concealed weapons permit and all that training and knowledge (of Stand Your Ground) was shared through that with him.”
Rachel, idea for play to be performed in high schools: versions of the event, the aftermath, the trials. Alternate last acts. Credit to you for one of the best stage moments ever!
Thanks (blushing).
They use passive voice. Knowledge was shared with george. George was punched in the nose. George had his head slammed on the ground. blah blah blah. Nobody DOES anything. They all get done to, done about, done wrong. Big passive [aggressive] boo hoo. Soooo tired.
You know, I saw that: “He went through training himself to get the concealed weapons permit and all that training and knowledge (of Stand Your Ground) was shared through that with him.”
And immediately I had to stop. I mean wait up. Didn’t GZ say he was not even aware of the SYG law?
Of course, it is possible he had learned about it in “training” and forgot about it, because of his bad memory.
But honesttogod, someone who has such a bad memory that despite the fact that they wear their gun at all times except for to work did not remember he had it on him and was unaware of the rules (or forgot them?) and responsibilities for the gun licensed within his jurisdiction, should that person even be allowed to have a gun to begin with?
Osterman apparently doesn’t have a very good memory, either. In that interview linked to by SouthernGirl2, he said:
“As far as the claims that George Zimmerman is racist, Osterman claimed Zimmerman has many friends of different races. “Sometimes George would call me his token white friend because he had so many African American friends whom he loved dearly and they loved him dearly.”
But in his statement to investigators, didn’t he say that George was a ‘loner’ who didn’t have many friends?
Well, ya’ know, to some people, black folks are invisible.
Yeah, I saw that too and had to wonder, who and where are all these “African American friends whom he loved dearly and they loved him dearly?”
I wonder if he has any Asian friends. I mean after all, his father said that George would have done the same If several Asians had broken in places there and he saw an Asian walking around.
How many middle eastern friends do you think he has.
Where are all these African American friends? I mean other than Joe Oliver (who thinks that “coons” is a term of endearment and coonass is a badge of honor).
I’m sure we will see them at the trial when they ALL come out to testify for George.
Oh and also @elcy:
I could be wrong, but I seem to remember Osterman once saying that not only was he GZ’s best friend but pretty much his only friend for 6 years.
“Of course, it is possible [GZ] had learned about [SYG] in ‘training’ and forgot about it, because of his bad memory.”
Which would be consistent with his academic record at the community college, where much of what he was taught seems to have whistled into one ear and right out the other.
but I thought he never heard of SYG?
Exactly. Even the Ostermans should have raised brows on that one. They confuse me, but the still go on television and write a book defending this dude. In one of his excerpts, he stated that they haven’t spoken to or have seen The Zimmermans since I think, he went back to jail and released. There may be some trust issues or paranoia and a rift between the couples I believe.
I read Osterman bragging that he taught GZ to shoot and helped him select the gun. They went to the range monthly and they shot in someone’s backyard whenever they had the chance, shooting 300 to 400 rounds per session. I sincerely doubt that Osterman didn’t impress GZ with his knowledge of law on SYG, SD and other legal matters, seeing how proud GZ was of attending “law school”. At least, you’d certainly think that a man who had been fired from the sheriff’s dept. would be smarting in the shadow of such pride and demonstrate that he knew a few things of his own.
I’m sure he did.
“He went through training himself to get the concealed weapons permit and all that training and knowledge (of Stand Your Ground) was shared through that with him.”
I can only hope Osterman’s statements about Zimmerman’s training regarding SYG can be used against Zimmerman in court.
I don’t think Zimmerman truly has a poor memory. It is an excuse for not being able to give a coherent story for what happened on 02/26/2012. The saddest thing to me is Zimmerman’s supporters who can’t see through this craziness. I can only pray there isn’t someone on the jury who is as dumb as the Zimmerman supporters.
You said,
They can and no doubt will use it against him.
Ooops!
Ha, ha, ha. I truly appreciate you LLMPapa. A man of few words, but sooooo impactful. Keep on keeping on.
This is Ostermans’ 15 minutes of fame. Never mind that they are really hurting the best friend, the most hated man in the country. I’ve got some other candidates for the most hated man and they have all killed many more people than George.
I have to wonder about O’Mara’s reaction to all the help he is getting. George now has “friends” quoting him telling stories that are different from all those that George told. MO isn’t very smart but, like GZ, he doesn’t know it.
From O’Mara’s site:
http://gzlegalcase.com/
“Osterman’s book and TV spot, although well-intentioned, are ill-timed and done without input and NOT approved by the defense.”
My guess is that Osterman’s sick and tired of some of George’s and Shellie’s “dependency needs” and probably Osterman feels that some of the PayPal money should have been used to pay back loans HE HAD MADE to George and so forth and so on. Remember, Osterman had to play “silent guy” while Taaffe, Oliver and others got camera time. Ooops maybe there’s trouble in paradise.
“With friends like these”, MOM would be thinking. “the state doesn’t need a prosecutor”. lol Hardly a wonder then, that MOM is seeking to bury himself in TM’s school records. If that doesn’t occupy him until trial, he can go after the Martin family tree. Who knows, maybe an ancestor helped mfg the deck chairs for the Titanic. At least that would be more useful than what GZ has given him.
George Zimmerman told someone (I think it was Serino) that he knew nothing about Stand Your Ground prior to the shooting.
George told Hannity — with a smirky chuckle — that he had never heard of the SYG laws on 2/26/2012. National TV.
I so want to wipe that smirk off his face!
Glad t see you back, Ms. Manitoba. Missed your inquiring mind!
When parentheses are placed into a quote like that, it means that he didn’t say those words, but the interviewer is assuming that he is referencing that. The question that was asked is not known, so the answer has less meaning than the news source is insinuating. You can watch the video on the local fox affiliate in Orlando.
I think the thing to do in this case, at least from the lawyers’ perspective (both sides) would be to obtain the concealed carry curriculum that GZ completed. Fact-checking, of sorts.
Crane-Station says: “I think the thing to do in this case, at least from the lawyers’ perspective (both sides) would be to obtain the concealed carry curriculum that GZ completed. Fact-checking, of sorts.”
Exactly.
I would also check his school curriculum to see if gun laws for the state were ever mentioned. I find it very hard, if not impossible, to believe that between a concealed carry course for licensure and a program of near-complete criminal justice, he would not have been introduced to this.
The problem with your argument is that the concealed carry statute requires the State of Florida to issue a cocealed carry permit to a person who, among other thingsm according to 790.06(2)(g)
The applicant also has to complete a properly certified course of instruction on firearms that no doubt includes information on the SYG and self-defense law consistent with subsection (g), which appears to be what Osterman is talking about.
I guess we know why Zimmerman was smirking when he denied knowing anything about STG on the Hannity show.
Looks like the prosecution will prove that Zimmerman lied through the statute, his application for the license, the required material for course certification, Osterman and others.
Yet another Zimmerman lie, apparently.
LOL! Flies directly in the face of GZ stating that he had never heard of “Stand Your Ground.”…….*coughBullshit*
Watch Osterman become a state’s witness: “Permission to examine him as a hostile witness, please, Your Honor.”
“Permission granted. You may proceed.”
Osterman is on the list.
He is on the list already.
Lord love a duck. Little wonder that O’Mara’s not that happy with Osterman. Thanks for the info, and thanks to
@bettykath who also replied.
Wonder if they will use him, and if so, will it be during the case-in-chief or in the rebuttal. Hmm.
SYG training?
“I have a really bad memory.”
Seriously, how much can George Zimmerman get away with with his bad memory excuse as far as SYG or remembering events of 02/26.
jm, Zimmerman knows he’s guilty as hell, and he’s had to make up so many stories, that when he can’t come up with a new lie without conflicting with an old lie, he falls back on “I forget.”
That’s all the defense has.
The jury will have to answer that question and I don’t think Zimmerman is going to like the answer.
We can only hope there is a fair and logical jury and George Zimmerman gets what he deserves.
I am kind of jury-disillusioned after the Casey Anthony verdict and some of the jurors reasoning for their verdict.
Then I read some posts on the conservative treehouse site and wonder about the lack of logic of some potential jurors.
Professor Leatherman, I totally agree, but at the same time have gotten a big kick out of everyone being impressed and admiring your Opening Statement Snapshot. You are a professionally accomplished attorney professor, so why wouldn’t it is exactly as I would expect. GREAT! Humbly great, that is what makes it even better.
Aw shucks. You’re making me blush.
(This refers back to the last thread, but I’m posting it here because the discussion seems to move past the old threads and onto the new ones regardless of topic…)
There seems to be a lot of confusion over the voice recognition ‘experts,’ what the critiques of Tom Owen made (implicitly) by the FBI and (explicitly) by James Wayman actually mean, and how this relates to whether any voice recognition testimony could be admissible at trial, or would be beneficial to the prosecution case.
The Orlando Sentinal consulted two audio forensics ‘experts,’ Tom Owen and Ed Primeau. Both of these men have records of appearing at trial, and having their analyses accepted as ‘expert’ testimony. Primeau’s method is not in the least scientific. I consider his findings next to worthless. However, courts have apparently disagreed. How Primeau or the prosecutors who use him get away with this without being ripped to shreds by defense council is beyond me. But apparently it happens.
So (again IANAL, so FWIW) it would seem there’s precedent for admitting audio forensics of various methods as expert testimony, and any critiques would go to weight, not admissability, yes Prof.?
I consider Owen’s analysis to be a ‘quickie’ preliminary study for the purposes of a newspaper story. There are serious flaws in the approach he used, as far as the scientific method goes. If he were to present the study he did for the Sentinal in court, I would be confident that I could impeach him on cross examination (IANAL and all).
However, there are two different questions here: the scientific validity of the SPECIFIC methodology of the study, and the scientific validity of ‘biometric speech analysis’ in GENERAL. That is, just because Owen employed a flawed (in the sense of being incomplete) method in his report for the Sentinal doesn’t mean he could not produce a more thorough test that would address those flaws.
I am very skeptical of the remarks made by the FBI analyst, and those made by Wayman. When Wayman says an exemplar of Trayvon Martin’s voice is needed for comparison in order to yield a valid determination, I believe he is clearly wrong. His contention that the conditions at hand preclude an accurate match is not simply a question of opinion, but rather subject to empirical tests, which in fact Owen would need to present to establish the scientific validity of his findings. That is, he would need to show that his method can reliably distinguish different voices under the conditions in question. It would be easy enough to design a simple experiment to gauge this. Have ten men scream while recording them via cell phone from a distance. Record the same ten men having a normal conversation on a cell phone. Record ten more men just screaming, and a different ten men just conversing. These recordings would be done by an associate so the analyst himself would have no idea which is which, or even how many matches he should expect in the field of possibilities. Give all 40 samples, unmarked, to the voice recognition expert. If his method is valid, he will be able to identify at least 8 out of 10 matches, and have no mismatches.
IMHO, audio forensics represents a problem for the prosecution one way or the other. As I’ve noted before, the popularity of CSI type TV shows leads lay people to expect technology to reveal the truth, and if such technology is NOT is employed the lay person is likely to wonder why, to think someone may be hiding something.
The risk to the prosecution, of course, of commissioning a full scientific work-up on the screams is that it might be inconclusive, Wayman might be right that voices cannot be reliably identified from these types of exemplars. In this case, the prosecution would have to turn these results over to the defense in discovery. But this would not do anything to establish that it’s NOT Trayvon screaming, and all of the other evidence that it’s not GZ would still be available.
On the other hand, if the prosecution does not produce audio forensics, I would assume the defense would make a point of that, plant the suggestion in the jury’s mind that he prosecution is hiding something, that they are afraid of a true scientific analysis because they know it wouldn’t support their ‘trumped-up case against an innocent defendant.’
You said,
Yes.
As I have stated several times, I do not believe the tech comparisons to voice exemplars are necessary because the context of what the voice screaming said and the timing of the scream ending abruptly with the shot establish conclusively that Trayvon is the person screaming.
I do not agree that by any measure, this case can be made to appear to any rational jury, to be “trumped up.” There’s sooooo much evidence against Zimmerman that it will really not MATTER who is screaming, in the final analysis. After all, if George had already had complaints made against him for carrying a gun while patrolling, and if (as in my theory of the case) he went out that night to PROVE to the community that he NEEDED to carry, then he might have been screaming “help help” just to create the scene he wanted to create to win over his audience. AFTER ALL there have even been presidents of countries who have gone to WAR to prove that they had to gain support for their favorite programs.
Professor last week I got into a conceal weapons discussion with several gun toting individuals; they had questions about the George Zimmerman case. One runs a concealed weapons training class and he continues to argue SYG; and self defense. Clearly these are questions for a person on the legal end..Trying to convince blind people is amazing… Maybe they will come and read for themselves…
1. Can Shellie Zimmerman keep a concealed weapons license for herself after being charged?
2. Is it because perjury is not a violent crime?
3. Is GZ allowed to possess guns or be around them while on bail?
It appears they want to take SZ license away she obtain with her husband.
4. How in Gods name did these characters obtain the same judge?
5.Couldn’t the legal system do better by bringing in an outside judge? Florida?
5. With all the multiple stories Osterman told; whom do you think will benefit from his testimony? if anybody? When you look into Osterman eyes he clearly looks brainwashed trying to sell a book…
I’m seeing these fanatics soon. I would like to get the correct responses to give to these SYG fanatics. All they claim is GZ was defending himself against Trayvon. What I notice they seem to forget a child was killed; their attitude seems motivated by gun rights. I feel they are refusing to accept a person with a concealed weapons license became out of contro, huntedl…and killed a child…
GZ shouldn’t have been walking with a gun. I feel their concern is only to protect their gun rights…
Will return later..must get back to work….
The mad dog gun people believe ANYONE who carries must defend himself constantly from a whole hostile WORLD. They are the same brand of paranoid as George Z.
Everyone, there are plenty of gun owners like I, who consider Zimmerman’s actions, attitude, statements and personality to be a threat to support for the Second Amendment.
Crazies don’t help any interest group.
Murdering crazies do even less.
MMA fighters aren’t about killing either. There are so many things wrong with the GZ supporter’s picture.
I believe in the Second Amendment; I’ve practice at the local shooting range and only practice to release my fear of guns.
Guns are ok in the hands of a mentally balanced person.
GZ running around town playing vigilante cop with past violent tendency isn’t good…..
Look at how things would have been different if Zimmerman would’ve stayed in his vehicle… Senseless killing…
Shall we debate abortion rights too?
Gay marriage anybody?
Israel v. Palestine?
I suggest that we stay on topic.
You should check the Florida statute that covers concealed weapons permits: 790.06
1. Can Shellie Zimmerman keep a concealed weapons license for herself after being charged?
Answer: She cannot possess a firearm, if she has been convicted of a felony. See: 790.23(1)(a). Perjury is a felony. If she cannot possess a firearm, she cannot carry a concealed weapon. See 790.06(2)(d).
2. Is it because perjury is not a violent crime?
Answer:That has nothing to do with it. Conviction of any felony disqualifies the person.
3. Is GZ allowed to possess guns or be around them while on bail?
It appears they want to take SZ license away she obtain with her husband.
Answer: I believe the answer is yes.
4. How in Gods name did these characters obtain the same judge?
Answer: There is no conflict of interest in having the same judge. For example, federal courts require related cases to be assigned to the same judge for reasons of judicial efficiency and consistency.
5. Couldn’t the legal system do better by bringing in an outside judge? Florida?
Answer: The Court has to follow its own rules. Judge Debra Nelson was assigned to the case.
6. With all the multiple stories Osterman told; whom do you think will benefit from his testimony? if anybody? When you look into Osterman eyes he clearly looks brainwashed trying to sell a book…
Answer: I don’t know anything about the guy except that he is strongly biased in favor of George Zimmerman and perhaps his only friend. He is not an attorney, so anything Zimmerman told him is not protected by the attorney-client privilege. On the other hand, I do not expect him to tell the truth. His primary value to the prosecution is as a rebuttal witness to something Zimmerman says, if he testifies. But whatever that statement might be, it will have to be something has publicly stated already. Something like he wrote in his book or stated to Dr. Phil that Zimmerman told him X and Zimmerman testified at trial to non-X.
“George Zimmerman, 28, currently free on $1 million bond and awaiting trial on a second-degree murder charge. He is banned by one of his bond conditions from a gun.”
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-09-18/news/os-shellie-zimmerman-gun-permit-20120918_1_shellie-zimmerman-george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin
Thank you Professor, Hopfully I can open their minds….
I’d start with: GZ is certainly entitled to carry his weapon where ever he goes, he’s licensed to do that. But, he has to be careful about what he does, when he puts on his NW cap. Which is anytime he’s reporting suspicious people or activities to the police.
So, he’s on his way to the store and he see someone acting suspicious? No problem, he makes his report! He’s armed, okay, as long as he stays in his vehicle and out of contact with said person. All of that is fine! But, if he leaves his vehicle, to go anywhere that person has been, he needs to leave his weapon in the vehicle! There’s simply no excuse for him to carry that weapon, as he moves along the path that the suspicious person has traveled, on foot. If he doesn’t want to leave the weapon behind, then he shouldn’t be getting out of his vehicle at all.
The NW rules are designed to prevent just this kind of thing from happening. Where a person who perceives they’re being followed, without any explanation therefore, has a right to feel that such “strange” behavior is a potential threat to themselves. GZ didn’t mind what he might be causing the other person to think and that’s where he was wrong. Once he knew that the person he was following felt threatened, he should have either removed himself from the scene, or introduced himself as NW, to prevent misunderstandings and fears from escalating.
Because he didn’t do that, did not retreat and did nothing to stop fear of himself from escalating, he was a vigilante unlawful! Because he had no police “peace officer” powers or standing, he had no right, or duty, to investigate anything at all. In fact he had an NW instruction to stand down.
Im going to send the gun toting fanatics to this blog…to read…
Wow they are really falling out of their tree over there at the outhouse.
LOL, I love it! The obsessed stalking trolls posted one of our dumpster diving/scrapping videos from when we used to go scrapping with our pickup! You gotta love the stalkers. I guess they realized their hero, GZ, is utter toast on the forensics, so that, plus being the pernicious and persistently disturbed sociopaths that they are, well, they seem to have nothing left to do with their days and nights but to paste videos of people they’ve never met onto their lame-ass comment threads..
I’ve got half a mind to put up a whole bunch more YouTube videos, just so they can keep their focus right where it belongs!
Crane-Station, recyclers are the unsung heroes on this planet.
Keep it up!
Oh, we do, believe me. I have written about it a lot. Bottom line, we hate good things and recyclables going to the landfill. Thanks for your kind comment.
Photos of some things retrieved from dumpsters:
http://froggravy.wordpress.com/2012/04/25/photos-of-things-i-have-found-in-the-garbage/
Crane,
Who would have ever thought? Those are some nice things. What’s funny is those over at the nuthouse aren’t hurting you guys. You and Fred have been pretty open about y’all lives. So all of that wasted energy should be directed to something a bit more constructive in their own lives. They are obsessed with the two of you LOL.
I know, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Anything they need to know about us personally is published on Frog Gravy, including the dumpster diving, under the tag titled as such.
I don’t know why they find it constructive to do this, but the oddity surpassed ridiculous and entered laughable a while back. Thanks for your kind comment.
Crane-Station
I’m another that’s always finding something wonderful that’s been carelessly discarded. Best finds to date;
a 200 year old gold,Opal and garnet pin w/natural pearl drops
9 piece Art Deco Waterfall bedroom suite in the alley..”trash”
Good for you, and good luck to you on your dumpster diving/scrapping adventures
Oops.
I lost my comment. At least I think I did. Anyhow, I was admitting that I am outdone, even with the books I have from the 1700s and the vintage Wedgewood and Lenox pieces in pristine condition.
That said, all, and I mean ALL of our furniture, clothing, appliances, linens, flatware and living essentials come from dumpsters.( That includes food!)
I’ll write an update essay sometime in the near future.
I love it, looneydoone. A kindred spirit, you are. You have found some absolutely amazing things, and to think- they would have gone to the landfill and been lost. Good on you!
Who cares who is paying for Shellie’s defense? Not important. Doubt anyone knows.
Truth, I asked.
I wondered if George shared.
Is she classified indigent?
She might be classified as such. Remember MOM crying broke after the increase in bond, plus GZ’s security team. This is also in part what prompted the SH interview. Who knows with them. Robert and Gladys got in on the actionor tried.
off topic…
Question for anyone..
The gun that was confiscated from the rental car along with laptop etc.. was Osterman’s gun. Do police officers in Florida have their DNA on file? And if they do can they run his DNA against the unknown contributors on TM’s clothes?
Good question….
thanks….EIETTO
Someone in the previous thread wrote that GZ tried to buy 3 more guns but the gun dealer would only sell him one. He also reported the attempted sale to the FBI. I assumed that was the gun he schlepped when he went to sweet talk Corey. So if THAT gun belonged to Osternan, what happened to the new he bought?
Someone in the previous thread wrote that GZ tried to buy 3 more guns but the gun dealer would only sell him one. He also reported the attempted sale to the FBI. I assumed that was the gun he schlepped when he went to sweet talk Corey. So if THAT gun belonged to Osternan, what happened to the new one he bought?
That would be me. The report is in the doc dump, IIRC, the second one.
Merrily following
Cielo62- that really is a good question. MO does claim in his book that he provided GZ with the gun they and ammo found on him when he was rearrested. Since they were separated at that time, he might have given to new one to Shellie. Perhaps that is the reason Shellie has had her c/c recended prior to being convicted of any crime? Not having a gun is a condition of GZ’s bond. Was it one of Shellie’s?
* the gun and ammo they found.
Ok Ed, where are you? I have typos. LOL
Vicky~ ~I read last evening that Zimmerman’s bond stipulations ordered by Judge Lester was no drugs, alcohol or guns. When his bond was revoked and he returned to jail, is this when the gun and ammo was found on the front seat of the vehicle? Was the vehicle registered to George? Was his conceal and carry permit suspended when he was charged with second-degree murder? I can’t seem to comprehend some of these things….help!!!!
Here is GW’s bond order.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/99228805/George-Zimmerman-Bond-Order
Scroll to the last page. I don’t see any mention of guns.
This article explains suspensions of CW permit.
http://www.criminaldefenseattorneytampa.com/PracticeAreas/CareerConsequences/ConcealedWeaponorFirearmLicense.aspx
If arrested on any criminal charge they send out a notice of suspension and you have 21 days to respond. This is why Shellie received hers. SURELY George would have received one after his arrest. I have found no proof he has though. (He did have a knife, a pistol and three clips loaded with ammunition in his rental car when he turned himself in April 11th. That was on the day of his arrest so I would think it was still legal at that time.)
Lynn~~your link is for the second bond order. I was referring to the first bond order in my query…re the guns. Thanks.
@Frederick
Any chance you could do an article on jury instructions in the future? I was sickened when juror #3 from the Casey Anthony trial went on TV and said that she could not give the death penalty when they weren’t sure what the crime was. Regardless of whether she felt the prosecution proved there was a homicide, she basically admitted that if she convicted the defendant, they would get the death penalty. I’m not sure if juror #3 was too stupid to realize this, but there was also 2nd degree murder or a manslaughter type charge to choose from as well. Even if she was convicted on first degree murder, they decide the death penalty in what is called the “penalty phase”. She felt that a conviction meant death for Anthony, there is no other way I can interpret her statements. I feel it is important for the prosecution and the defense to both educate the jury on what the charges mean, and also how the penalty phase is decided. It seems the average juror is completely oblivious to how a jury operates.
In Florida, the death penalty vote is a majority and not unanimous, correct?
Correct
Unnanimous in the guilt phase. Majority in the penalty phase.
I’m not exactly sure what you are saying/asking – but I sat on a jury once which if the person was convicted could end in the death penalty and that was part of the jury selection. Anyone who was against the death penalty was removed. They also told us right from the start and also mid-way through the trial (would replace with alternates if necessary) that this case could result in the death penalty – that the decision would be the judge’s, but our guilty verdict could lead to that.
But don’t you know in the end, one juror was a hold-out and it resulted in a hung jury. His reason was that he had a family, he had kids and he was scared of the possibility something happening to them if this person was sentenced to death.
There were 11 of us who were really upset with him because we had told him over and over that he knew what he was getting into before this happened, he had been reminded over and over during the trial and all he’d had to do if it was a problem was excuse himself and get an alternate.
He said he knew, but the realities did not hit until the end.
In some ways I totally understood. It was a 12-week trial and at first it was like a play. The defense attorney was a very colorful animated dramatic character. The prosecution was a lot more calm and collected. It was very easy to get drawn into the “performance.” But after sitting for hours every day with all the players, it became almost “intimate,” like we knew them and by the time it was over, the responsibility of what we had to do was a bit overwhelming. I remember having difficulty sleeping for the couple nights we were deliberating.
@rachael
Juror misconduct can cause a mistrial. The actions of the juror you describe in my mind should classify under juror misconduct. During the penalty phase, you should be able to decide the person’s fate based on your own beliefs. But basing it on the fact that you fear retaliation for sentencing someone to death sounds ridiculous and out of line.
I have a new post up:
Zimmerman: Jury Selection and Batson v. Kentucky
TZAR??? Really.. I COMMAND YOU to refrain from being disrespectful to Professor Leatherman’s participants on his blog. You’re a newbie and a disrespectful one at that. Take a chill pill and try to get along. We’re all on the same side, remember? PS: It’s not necessary to copy my entire post if you want to respond to me. Maybe you should try to be a bit more creative in your prose to get your point across. Just a suggestion.
JB, maybe “command” was a typo?
Maybe an “e” was intended?
I think he meant to “commEnd” you not command you.
Yep, that’s what I read, “commend”, was meant, “command” doesn’t make sense. The writer doesn’t strike me as one who reaches for abuse.