I was inspired to write this post because many of you have expressed concern about the admissibility of the 911 call with the death shriek in the background.
Here is my answer to one of the comments.
Logi said,
“I have been told that now that the FBI has ruled the 911 taped screams inconclusive to who was screamng for help,, that now expert audio testimony is inadmissible from the prosecution regarding that tape. Is this true?”
This is my response:
That is definitely not true. The FBI Crim Lab did not “rule” and has no authority to rule regarding the admissibility of evidence. That is a question of law that only a judge can decide.
There is no question that the tape is admissible. It will be admitted. The jury will get to listen to it and decide who is screaming.
There are only two possibilities. Trayvon Martin or George Zimmerman.
The FbI analyst said the quality of the 911 call recording was so poor that an accurate technological analysis and comparison of the voice screaming on the tape to a voice exemplar obtained from George Zimmerman was not possible.
This does not mean that jurors cannot use their own hearing in the context of the rest of the evidence admitted in the case to decide who is screaming.
It also does not mean that the 911 tape cannot be cleaned up to filter out other noise and enhanced to amplify the sound of the voice. There is a generally accepted technology regarding how that’s done.
The voice is not just screaming. The person screaming is saying something and what that person is saying will help the jury decide who is screaming.
The person screaming apparently said things like,
“I’m begging you.”
“Help.”
I don’t know.”
“No.”
Some people claim to have heard “Mama.”
Blood curdling shrieks are heard up until the shot and then they end abruptly.
Difficult to believe the jury will decide that the man with the gun was screaming and stopped screaming at the exact moment he fired the fatal shot.
Therefore, there is very little chance that the jury will conclude George Zimmerman was screaming.
In addition, there is the recording the police obtained from George Zimmerman screaming
‘Help me” over and over that bears no resemblance to the shriek.Finally, Zimmerman said Martin was smothering him just seconds before the shot, yet there is no pause in the screaming before the shot.
I honestly don’t believe there is any chance the jury will decide that George Zimmerman is screaming.
In addition, the witnesses in the neighborhood who called 911 will be able to sufficiently authenticate that the shriek came from one of the two guys involved.
Any argument that the source of the shriek is someone else in the neighborhood would go to weight and not admissibility.
Great. Now the jury will have nightmares.
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Thank you Professor. I really appreciate having access to this blog to process not only the evidence in this case but weed out the fake internet Troll lawyers out there, and there are many!
Thank you again! Much respect!
one more post then i am really turning in.
Can the family of Trayvon Martin, have an audio of his voice in a state of excitment like playing sports and use an independent source to do the audio comparison, then turn it over to the state for evidence. Could they do that?
Sure, and I would be surprised to discover that the prosecutors have not looked into this possibility.
If the jurors decide that is Trayvon Martin screaming on that tape, or that it isn’t George Zimmerman, the case is over for George Zimmerman.
I don’t believe this issue is likely to be resolved by technological comparisons to voice exemplars, although I have not ruled that out.
Instead, I think what the person screaming said and the abrupt ending of the scream with the gunshot, as though it were casually punctuated by a period, will be all anyone needs to consider to identify Trayvon Martin as the person begging for his life.
“I think what the person screaming said and the abrupt ending of the scream with the gunshot, as though it were casually punctuated by a period, will be all anyone needs to consider to identify Trayvon Martin as the person begging for his life.”
Additionally, since this is so closely connected to the handling of the gun. I’d like to point out that from FDLE pages 77-80, we have the overt assertions that Mark Osterman, a trained and skilled LEO, has trained GZ on gun matters, and very likely introduced GZ to other matters dealing with the professional handling of physical engagements as well.
I don’t know, but I’d guess that no police officer ever forgets about his firearm possession. I can’t certify it, because I’ve never been through a police academy or LEO firearms training session or manuals. But, from Osterman’s words in the FDLE report, I can guess that there are somethings of substance that MO can teach if he so desires. Most especially since he takes pains to state that he evaluates GZ’s weapons skills as “improving slowly over time”.
[If anyone knows, since as I search I keep getting distracted by interesting info, 1. What time did GZ leave home and 2) What time did TM leave home. I came across this info several times and failed to record it at the times.] Thanks
Professor: I have not listened to the entire tape. I cannot. I have only heard bits and pieces accidentally, and the little that I did hear sounds like a boy. An African American boy to be precise. Why would a man with a gun being screaming “stop” and “nooooo!” while pulling the trigger? You know just thinking about this makes me want to choke the sht out of that entire posse. They all made game and sport out of the snuffing of this child’s life, in their individual interviews.
To MichellO….. I have always believed this is Trayvon screaming for his life…. I do have one question however….. how exactly does one tell from this recording that it is a “black boy” screaming?
They will say anything to steal justice from this child and his family
Thieves I tell you, nothing but dishonorable thieves.
PEOPLE won’t let them. And I hope that the justice system knows and sincerely understands this. This is truly heartbreaking. It’s a disgrace.
Fred~~I just posted comments on the other page just as you put a link in to this new post up. We have to stop meeting like that because my comments will not get read…arrgggh You seem to be one step ahead of me…wellll
This is what I am going to do. I am going to plunk those same comments down here. Please take note of the last part of my comments. I will instill in the jurors minds that it is Trayvon screaming on the audio before they get to listen to the actual audio of the screaming. Every opportunity I have in my opening statement, I will refer to Trayvon’s screams. Here are the comments from the other page…. I believe in recycling things..lol
Fred~~do you think that the state will bring in the 7-11 video tape. That would be powerful. It shows the last pics of Trayvon. Emphasize that the young man you will see on this video had no idea that in a matter of minutes after he left the store that his life would be cut short, much too short. The assailant armed with a semi-automatic pistol would stalk him until he was cornered and had to cower and beg mercifully for his life to be spared but still a shot rang out on that rainy nite, his screams for help were silenced. He was silenced but it could have been avoided if Mr Zimmerman had followed the rules of the Neighborhood Watch. etc etc
BTW, Fred, thanks for this new post and for all your efforts in keeping us informed. It does not go unnoticed.
That would be excellent to leave them with in closing. Not a dry eye in the house. Very good.
Followed by the 911 scream. Yeah, 7-11 video when last seen alive then audio of last words with what you said.
I don’t know how important this is… I’d point out from the 7-11 video that, Trayvon put the money in the clerks hand. IMO, putting the money in the clerks hand and not just laying the money on the counter shows a sign of respect and speaks of his character.
It also indicates that TM was not on drugs, as GZ said he looked like he was.
Trayvon’s character is not on trial
he had the right to walk down the street unmolested whether he was a nice guy or a complete jerk. And we must defend that right adamantly regardless.
It may be worthwhile to mention it was COLD and RAINY that night – hence the hoodie. There may be a juror that would think a hoodie thugwear as discussed with Geraldo, if the prosecution does show the 7-11 photo. He does look very tall and his lankiness is hidden by the clothing in the video for the brief period we are able to see him.
I’m not sure how, but I wonder if hoodies (under the guise of fashion) will be addressed in voir dire.
Nice write up MSF
one nit picky question
you wrote
“but it could have been avoided if Mr Zimmerman had followed the rules of the Neighborhood Watch.”
is it simply the rules of NW that GZ violated that could have spared Trayvon or something much simpler, more fundamental to the human community, that he should have learned from living in society?
I just don’t want us to forget that GZ’s infractions are much deeper than failing to follow the procedural guidelines of neighborhood watch (I know you know this by the way, I just wanted to make that point)
I want to know what the rules of concealed-carry permits are. Surely anyone permitted by the State to carry a firearm must agree to a code of conduct that ensures safety of the populace. Surely George Zimmerman violated THAT.
If GZ was questioning and inflicting pain on Trayvon, at any time while he was alive there, then he transformed TM from a suspect, into someone who had the potential to send GZ to jail for a very long time. Judging by GZ’s personality, that would be intolerable to him, and more than enough motive for GZ to kill him, to protect himself from the horror of being judged a total and criminal failure in front of the community, friends and family.
Had Travyon lived to tell of being tortured, abused and questioned, by an armed adult with only a suspicion as cause, and a NW’er acting in violation of his rules. He’d be totally ruined, and this in the face of his already estranged family… Well?!? GZ could never even contemplate standing up to that humiliation.
Having checked the Florida concealed weapon permit rules: if one has been convicted of a felony, one is ineligible for a permit unless the Florida Department of Executive Clemency has restored one’s civil and firearms rights. If adjudication of guilt for felony or misdemeanor violence (also misdemeanor domestic violence) has been withheld, applicant is ineligible until 3 years have elapsed since court-imposed conditions have been fulfilled. 2005+3+time for conditions=2009.
Incredible that no character reference is required.
Regarding the 7-11 tape, would it be possible to just show the five minutes or so with Trayvon in the store or would it be necessary to run the whole thing (zzzzzzz)?
As for the hoody issue, I can’t see dwelling on it. The jurors will all live in the same county and should know how people dress in their area. Anyway, if they are subjected to a long cut of the 7-11 tape (zzzzzzz) they will see plenty of nonthug customers wearing hoodies.
*correction… I would put Trayvon’s assailant or His assailant
I don’t think I would like to use evidence that was tampered with or edited such as an enhance audio tape of the screaming. I don’t believe I would have much trouble getting the jury to hear those screams as Trayvon’s. ( I am going to put Sabrina Fulton on the stand and also Tracy Martin.) By the sounds of things, I may go to Florida and give Angie Corey a swift kick and be De La Rionda’s co-counsel.
Both the original and the enhanced copy are admitted into evidence. The enhanced copy is for illustrative purposes only and does not go back into the jury room during deliberations. If they want to hear it, they have to send out a note asking to hear it. They would then be brought back into the courtroom and the enhanced tape would be played. Then they would return to the jury room to continue their deliberations.
In this way, the enhanced would supplement the original, but the verdict would be based on the original.
Alternatively, both could go into evidence and the jury could listen at will to both.
Either way, each would be marked so they would remain a permanent part of the record and not be confused..
Fred~~thank you, I did not know that so I learned something new in here. If I were not so old, I would contemplate going for my bar exam. The only bar I can pass now is an old saloon down the path.
Thank you for another post.
I waited months before I could bring myself to listen to that 911 tape. When I finally did, I could hardly breath. The sheer terror in those screams for help left me wondering how anyone who heard them and saw the struggle could resist rendering aid, but that is another topic of discussion. What I did know after listening to the call, looking at the picture of GZ following the photo op that took place at the scene (no sign of crying) and then reading the information about his vitals following the event, not to mention GZ’s sad tale of near suffocation immediately before the shot was fired, is that the likelihood that the cries came from GZ are slim to none. I can’t imagine the jurors wouldn’t realize the same.
I think the defense is proabalyall to aware of whom the jurors will attribute those screams to, and will do their level best to keep that call out. But, as the professor says, in the end, this evidence no matter how potentially damaging. So they will have to stick with the plan of attributing those screams to GZ, since he has claimed them to begin with. So, I think the defense will claim them in their opening statement while claiming that GZ looked straight into the eyes of at least one onlooker while begging for help. But, in doing so, they will commit themselves to having George testify on his own behalf…correct? Or can they attack the credibility of witnesses who have since changed their testimony about what they saw and heard?
Under cross-examination I believe it could damage their credibility a tad. However, they may testify that the detective interrogating them coached them on what to say. The two women that were first on the scene, one of them has now come out and said they were coached by the police. The police could have adjusted their statement without their permission.
That puts the prosecution in an awkward position, doesn’t it–calling the integrity of the police into question (as it should be)?
@ Vicky
I do not listen to the 911 tape anymore. I listened to it once and could not- and will not listen to it again. I literarily fell sick the first time I listened to that tape . Before then I like to think of myself as a heavy-metal-loving rebel, tough-minded and a companionate nihilist. But the tape did make me bow my head and say a few words in prayer for the kid whose life was cut short in such an evil manner. I have never seen/virtualized that type of violence in my whole life. I mean: you don’t kill a kid (or anyone else) who is begging for his life; a kid that – having been suspended from school – is scared of getting into yet another trouble and as a result would not fight back, threw his hands up in surrender, begged Zimmerman to stop, begged Zimmerman for his life! And then – the gunshot! This is beyond evil.
It took me a long time before I could listen to it, and I have needed go back and hear something else in there for days now but I just can’t bring myself to it yet again.
Agreed.
I’ve said this before and I will say it again. I will settle for a murder 2 conviction, but I believe this was a premeditated murder.
The evidence shows Zimmerman decided to kill, reflected on that decision, and pulled the trigger. That is all that is required to prove premeditation. Add in his shenanigans after the shot and there is no doubt.
@Frederick
I agree to stick with 2nd degree murder as well. He can receive life in prison without parole. There is no reason to bump it up to a 1st degree murder charge unless you agree with the death penalty. I do also agree though that the evidence is clear regarding premeditation. He smothered a dying victim and refused him medical care. That pretty much seals it for me.
OMG There goes part of the prosecutions opening statement. This point should be emphasized that he was begging for his life and was shot that is pure evil. I also have believed since the first time I heard the tape with headphones it was premeditated
Is Murder 1 still a possibility??
LadyStClaire, Whats even more evil is the fact that Zimmerman is claiming that it is his voice and so is his father. these people are just plain evil to the core. I hope he will be locked up for a long long time. as for Osterman, I feel that he needs to be investigated as well as Frank Taaffe. RIP Trayvon and I Love you much
I’ve always believed that he was holding Trayvon at gun point and, I agree with another blogger here, that this was premeditated. may Zimmerman burn in h**!.
@Brandi Bell-Gibson
There is definitely evidence of 1st degree murder, but it is unlikely that the prosecution is going to charge him with that instead. 2nd degree murder already carries a maximum of life in prison, which means he will die in prison if he is given that sentence. Unless the prosecution wants him executed, I see no reason to change the charge against him. As we saw with the Casey Anthony case, they had a choice of charging her with 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, or a manslaughter type charge. The idiot juror #3 went on TV claiming that the death penalty had to do with the verdict. She is stupid and did not have to go with 1st degree murder, let alone vote for the death penalty in the penalty phase. That woman made herself look like the biggest fool in the world by going on TV and trying to justify the ridiculous verdict. She would have been better off keeping her face behind closed doors.
It took me many months to listen too. I listened to just one of the calls this morning, but I don’t hear the pleas that others hear. Perhaps I need to listen to an enhanced version
Let me correct myself, the witnesses have changed their statements regarding what they saw. Not their testimony. I believe their initial statements to LE were influenced by what the were told by the cops interviewing them, but upon further reflection, were able to more clearly recall what they saw/heard.
You said,
I believe you’re right. I know Serino was “correcting” witnesses insisting that GZ was screaming and that is absolutely unacceptable in any type of investigation into any type of matter, without exception.
He’s lucky he still has a job because he should have been fired for that.
The fact that he wasn’t speaks volumes.
I still can’t figure Serino out. At first he seemed lazy about the about the investigation, just trying to get the paperwork done and over with, then later played good cop / bad cop in his final interview with GZ, which appeared to be pretty effective. The GZ crowd doesn’t like him and suspects he caved in to pressure within the dept. to issue a capias and also suspects he’s the one who leaked the police station video of GZ that was first aired on CBS, I believe, but how true is either assessment?
Not only correcting witnesses but he put in the report, he wrote clearing you can hear Zimmerman yelling for help. He should of not done that without audio anaylsis.
Serino seems to be a band wagon rider. He saw the light in the end but you shouldn’t be a detective if you just take a killers words and there being so much evidence that Zimmerman is lying. It is so apparent its a kid screaming for help. But even with that, it doesnt even match Zimmerman’s story. He also pushed testimony. He either needs better training or better investigative mind.
Not sure of holding laws but I would of held Zimmerman and continued investigation. Did it more thorough.
Why would he do that since he wanted Zimmerman arrested and charged with manslaughter? did he get a threat from his superiors and that is why he folded. all of those involved here, should be brought up on charges of obstructing justice. they were actually trying to help him get away with this murder of a child that he committed. SMH
Didn’t one of the officers on the scene “correct” and assure one of the residents not to worry that the screams they heard were the “bad guy” and he was dead?
No. Serino attempted to correct several witnesses telling them that Zimmerman was the person screaming (not Martin) and he was obviously wrong about that.
you are correct, that was said to witness 18 the school teacher from her written statement from discovery dump 1
Q: Do you have anything else to say or add to this statment.
A: Yes, the Detective also told me that the broad built man was the one who was screaming, he said you should of seen him he was all scratched or beaten up
I would have to go back and check but I do think two witnesses materially changed their statements. However, IMO, comparing a 2 minute/one paragraph blurb to the more extensive interrogation later completed is like comparing apples and oranges.
Also, we have to be mindful that what the public thought the witnesses initially said was based on what the SPD said they said. Add in the suggestive nature of their questioning and I’m wondering why the SPD isn’t facing witness tampering charges…well we don’t know that statute of limitations on that but if I was a part of the initial investigation, I would be very concerned about potential charges coming after trial…very concerned.
["I think the defense is proabalyall to aware "]….
Vicky… that ain’t berry good englaisio… I can do eben bettah dan dat… ! Hi, How ya doin.. ?
LOLOLOL
Ed, I am ashamed of you for playing hooky from class and not turning in your paper in the last discussion! What would you say to the jury?
Hi Ed, I am the queen of typos. LOL
I’m doing fine and dandy. How goes it with you? It’s nice to see you haven’t abandoned me and the professor.
Vicky ~~ ask Ed if he was ever a wrestler? Every time his name shows up, I think of a ‘full’ Nelson.
Hi Vicky, to the below guy who asks to ask if Ed is a wrestler or a tough guy, hell no, not in my lifetime, but only because I had to figure that out, like… getting my ass handed to me like a few times… I took on a few guys, thinking … hey… show me what you got or wtf.. I got showed and so now I know, that if you want to be… tough, you have to go to school, learn the moves, and all that.
The guys who know the moves, well, they don’t need to use it all the time, but you better not mess with them, because you will be sorry…
at least I know that much… if I can just remember it.. !
Those screams. Excellent subject to dedicate a page to. Thank you Professor. I completely agree with your assessment about the screams immediately stopping with the gunshot. There is something else I would like to add to that.
During his re-enactment, GZ talks about yelling for help after Trayvon punched him in the face, he fell, and Trayvon straddled him. GZ goes on to describe how he wiggled to get his head off the sidewalk, his jacket raised, Trayvon told him he was going to die, and he felt Trayvon’s hand going down his chest.
Even with omitting the part about being smothered, here is what I see as one logical reason for why it could not be GZ yelling for help; i.e., he describes a totally different situation that would require different yells for help.
Sorry — having a hard time articulating this. I’m crying out for help because someone knocked me down and is hitting my head on the sidewalk. I removed that possibility by moving my body. Then they start going for my gun and I fear they are going to get it and kill me. Don’t I yell out “He’s going for my gun!!!” rather than “help”?? Help me do what?
In the first instance, a yell for help is logical. In the second instance, a yell for help can place another person in harm’s way. (There’s that depraved mind again.) It would seem more logical that I let any listeners know what was happening — IF — I indeed believed that my life was going to end.
A 17 yr old yelling for help, (then a resident says he is calling 911) and then yelling “NOOOO!” conveys that something has changed. The first is crying out to anyone. The second is communicating directly to GZ.
At no time during any of his statements nor re-enactment does GZ express words directly towards the person who he thought was killing him. According to GZ, he cries for help but not once does he beg for his life. Why wouldn’t GZ tell Trayvon “You got it” letting Trayvon know that he no longer wanted to fight?
Excellent points Xena. As an ER nurse, with previous experience on a cancer floor, and with pain control being one of the things I chose to specialize in…..I clearly understand what you are saying about the quality of the screams.
Believe me, I’ve hear screams of “help me” too many times from someone in agonizing pain. The pain is so deep and consuming they cannot focus on the fear of dying….They, in some cases, would prefer dying rather than enduring the pain. The fear factor in the screaming voice is like none I have ever heard. Even stopping at auto wrecks with people trapped in them screaming, I just cannot reconcile those screams from Trayvon to anything I’ve heard.
The absolute terror in the voice is undeniable and unforgettable to me.
I don’t believe any sentient and empathetic being can listen to that pleading shriek and ever forget it.
There is something indescribably innocent, inviolate and sacred to it, too, and George Zimmerman’s attempt to appropriate it as his own is the final insult, a violation so unspeakable and vile that only a loving God could ever forgive it.
@PFL
Exactly my sentiment, just said better than I could.
“George Zimmerman’s attempt to appropriate it as his own is the final insult, a violation so unspeakable and vile that only a loving God could ever forgive it.
Very well said, Professor!
I cant listen to them again either. The first time I heard it on the news I immediately had an emotional reaction to it.
@hinkster – as a daughter of a nurse, a 2X cancer survivor and a one who recently lost my father to cancer, i thank you for your self less work. i agree with your comments about those screams for pain. i listened to that tape once and actively choose not to anymore.
it reminded me of uncontrollable screams that came from my own mouth once while enduring a horrible electrical shock. like my own, these screams are primal. there is no doubt about whose mouth they came from – the one who was in fact in fear of his own immediate demise, trayvon martin.
Thanks for fleshing out that argument some more.
It only becomes more powerful the more one thinks about the situation doesn’t it?
In the end, this case will be remembered for three things:
(1) Trayvon Martin’s death was a tragedy;
(2) George Zimmerman irreversibly damaged his own life when he decided to shoot and kill Trayvon Martin; and
(3) George Zimmerman destroyed any meaningful chance for freedom when he decided (a) to play the race card by portraying Trayvon as a psycho gangsta from Hell “skipping” around and uttering B-movie dialog from the 80s and 90s, and (b) to play the victim card by claiming Trayvon’s shrieks as his own.
He has always been his own worst enemy and now he is about to reap what he has sown.
It did not have to be this way. If he had kept his mouth shut and let his lawyer do what lawyers do with loser cases, he might have gotten out of this with a lesser sentence and a meaningful chance at freedom.
It is all part of God’s plan.
Professor: “He has always been his own worst enemy and now he is about to reap what he has sown. It did not have to be this way. If he had kept his mouth shut and let his lawyer do what lawyers do with loser cases, he might have gotten out of this with a lesser sentence and a meaningful chance at freedom.”
Actually I am so happy Zimmerman let us all know exactly what type of a person he is and a lawyer can’t sugar-coat him to get him a lesser sentence or a meaningful chance at freedom. It means one less gun-carrying sociopath is on the street and may deter anyone else from profiling, stalking and killing someone.
As George Zimmerman would surely agree, his incarceration can be considered part of “God’s plan” to keep a killing liar institutionalized.
Plant corn get corn. ~~Frank Taaffe
Obviously the person with the gun, needs no assistance from anyone, which is why he has the gun in the first place, to help himself. Once he draws it and points it at the attacker, he can order the attacker to cease, or be shot.
In such close quarters, he can merely press the gun against TM and say “back off or I’ll blow your brains out!” That order, unmistakably tells the attacker that a weapon is pointed at him. Even if he doesn’t think it’s true, he’s unlikely to take that chance, seeing that he’s feeling something hard pressed against him, by a free hand, and the sudden change in the demeanor of the victim.
Any fool knows that having a gun pointed at you isn’t going to kill you. But, making a “false move” in that position, is going to result in you being immediately shot. You don’t want to guess whether or not any shot into your body will be fatal. Nor can you reach for the gun hand, since that will cause you to get shot. All you can do is cease and do your best to make it clear that you have.
Since Travyon never had a weapon in his hands, never had any reasonable answer to GZ’s ready and aimed firearm. Why was no challenge/command ever issued?
At the place where the fatal shot was fired, there’s no evidence at all, that TM even came close to having a, potentially immediate, fatal advantage over GZ.
Well GZ can’t do that since he went for his phone instead of his gun. The most laughable part of his testimony.
Threat standing in front of you and instead of going for your gun to fend the threat off, you go for your gun???
More irrational behavior on GZ’s part eh professor?
@Puptart, you obviously meant phone.
Yes, when GZ needs to make a call he places his gun against his head… When in danger, however, he reaches for his cell phone or flashlight. Because he never remembers whether or not he can check to see if his gun is with him, if he has a question about it. And he always has questions about if his gun is with him or not, because, as he says, he carries it everywhere except work.
So, it should be no surprise to anyone that he forgets about having a gun when he needs one. He’s just a mild mannered, cop beating, woman throwing wimp of a bar bouncer.
Puptart: “Threat standing in front of you and instead of going for your gun to fend the threat off, you go for your gun???”
Why was Zimmerman going for his gun or his phone? What did Trayvon do that was threatening? The only threat I can see is the adult stalking the teen.
Exactly – it isn’t like Trayvon had a gun on him so it was shoot or be shot. By that time, he realized Trayvon wasn’t armed, especially if he “thought” Trayvon was going for GZ’s gun. I do believe though that he was pointing it at him and taunting him, which is why you hear the screaming and begging and in GZ’s own words (on Hanity I think it was) he was afraid the police would see him with his gun so he was running out of time (or something to that effect) which is why he practically chased off people who came out (no, don’t call 911 I already called) so he would have no witnesses when he shot, then telling someone to call the police so he could “take care” of the mess he made.
It is all so sick.
To me this is an important sign that he is lying. He is conflating what we know or at least what we are supposed to believe now with what he could have known at the time. At that point not only was there no life-and-death struggle, there was not even a reason to call the police.
It is the same thing as with the idiotic address business. Now the T is one of the most significant locations in this case, but what was its relevance at the time?
“Officer, I got you a house number from over there, the other side of the block where I last saw the vaguely suspicious guy I encountered a quarter mile away.” – “Uhm, thanks, I guess.”
PYorck says: “It is the same thing as with the idiotic address business. Now the T is one of the most significant locations in this case, but what was its relevance at the time? ”
Strange how that fishy “looking for an address” bothers me so much. Didn’t Mark Osterman say on Dr Phil that Zimmerman went looking for an address because after he told the dispatcher Trayvon ran, Osterman/Zimmerman claimed the dispatcher asked if Zimmerman still wanted him to send the police car which Osterman/Zimmerman interpreted as he needed an address or a police car may not be sent.
I listened to the recording and never did the dispatcher ask if Zimmerman still wanted him to send the police, but rather only made arrangements for a place to meet the police.
It sounds as though Osterman is a liar just like Zimmerman. Before they lie, do they ever think of the documentation that will prove they are lying?
Yes, I did mean phone.
Thanks
@Puptart, I saw that collision coming because, at the very time GZ should be reaching for his gun; because this is just the kind of threat he carries it for, he says he’s reaching for his phone, guffaw! When the jurors hear this the first time, they won’t think much of it. But, by the time they’ve heard the many controversies GZ raises, they too will be forced to count this one against him.
GZ is like a man with a metal detector, trying to cross a minefield, but every time he finds a mine he steps on it, then whines for your sympathy. At some point even the racist juror(s) will have to put out their burning crosses, take off their sheets and decide it’s time to go home.
Good analysis. I’ve been trying to think what it is that just makes it impossible to reconcile the screams as coming from Zimmerman, and I think you nailed it.
Those shrieks are not coming from a 28 year old 204 lbs weighing man with a gun, being slapped with a bag of skittles by a 17 year old kid weighing only 158 lbs.
I hope the prosecution will show the video of Zimmerman arriving at the police station that night.
It makes me so angry, and somehow GZ playing the victim, and appropriating those screams, infuriates me even more.
So, now you Travonites are admitting that TM slapped GZ with Skittles! GZ was scared for his life! Scared for his life! Obviously, GZ had to kill TM!
@longtimegeek… You can make light of it because you have obviously never had to face down a teen armed with a bag of skittles. Let alone iced tea!
I think trying to analyze and tell a jury to determine who’s voice is yelling by enhancing the audio would be great if it can be done. But, just as each of us have listened and some can hear things said and some cannot….so would a jury. Unless it was audibly clear that Trayvon called out for his mother or something to the effect.
I have every confidence a jury can use common sense and know that the voice stopped immediately after the shot. George boxed himself in on Hannity when he said he did not even know his shot had hit Trayvon. So, anyone with common sense would know Gz did not stop midway of a scream immediately as he pulled the trigger.
As for changed testimonies of witnesses, the 911 tapes and what they said on them cannot be changed. And, I am sure one neighbor spoke to another and gave an accounting of what they saw to each other. Do we have the list of witnesses for both sides yet? Which neighbors, for instance, stepped out, looked out, and did not call 911. These neighbors are the forgotten ones in this tragedy. Think of the fear they have after hearing the screams, the gunshot, and realizing a child was brutally murdered near their homes. This has to be something that lives in their lives now.
Who in that neighborhood has spoken to the prosecutors and said they saw Trayvon running; or George driving with lights out; or George walking down the walkway shaking his flashlight. There is a reason why “nosy neighbors” became a saying. There are always these in every neighborhood. They look out their windows as they watch TV/read a book/eating their dinner….and see, but only later realize they saw something and maybe should contact LE.
Are we hung up on Gz’s story that “It was a cold, rainy night in my neighborhood as I was making my way to do my grocery shopping and became so scared of someone out walking when no one else was looking…..”
We have heard that the prosecutor is not a soft sell when it comes to her duties. What do you think she has up her sleeve to charge Gz with the charges. I am not marking her, or her department, off as less than prepared.
hinkster4ever, I’m with you about the prosecution. Before Corey held the press conference, she had her ducks in a row.
There is still witness 31. The audio of that witness’ statement has not been released to the public. Like witness 9, the cousin alleging sexual abuse, I wonder if the statement deals with a subject unrelated to the case itself but maybe something else about GZ.
This absolutely key:
“I have every confidence a jury can use common sense and know that the voice stopped immediately after the shot. George boxed himself in on Hannity when he said he did not even know his shot had hit Trayvon. So, anyone with common sense would know Gz did not stop midway of a scream immediately as he pulled the trigger.”
Also, the fact that GZ was released from custody, sends a message to the community that the Police may not be very interested in what any other witnesses might have to say.
If you had information that might be incriminating, would you expect the police to welcome your challenge to the decision they already made? My guess is you’d probably not volunteer anything unless and until the prosecutors office makes contact.
That’s an excellent point, especially if they thought Zimmerman might be loose in the neighborhood.
George would not have spoken to those witnesses (“don’t call 911, help me restrain this guy”) while screaming for help. And none of those exchanges with the witnesses appears on the tapes, either.
Evidently, none of the witnesses saw anything that would cause them to think that GZ was in danger. GZ made his motive known — don’t stop him from beating me up — help me restrain him. Why would a private citizen think for a second that they had authority to restrain anyone, especially when the person asking for help restraining neither has authority to do so?
Zimmerman may have realized that Martin was not a criminal once he pleaded for help the way he did. I reckon you might do serious time for assault and false imprisonment while armed. He may have just executed Martin to prevent long prison time. I also believe it is possible that Zimmerman still thought he was a criminal and shot him because he was trying to get away or break free. It is hard to determine what was going on in Zimmerman’s depraved mind when he decided to pull that trigger. Unless he makes a plea deal and gives a full confession, we will never really know exactly why he decided to shot Martin.
“Unless he makes a plea deal and gives a full confession, we will never really know exactly why he decided to shot Martin.”
Why would anyone believe anything GZ says ever again?
@Dennis, I don’t think it was Zimmerman screaming for help at all. When someone came out, he basically told them to go away – I believe it was so he could make as sure as possible there were no witnesses when he shot him because he had to do it real soon with all the noise Trayvon was making – he even said himself (on Hannity) he was in a hurry because he did not want the police to come and find him with his gun.
“Unless he makes a plea deal and gives a full confession, we will never really know exactly why he decided to shot Martin.”
I don’t think George Zimmerman is capable of the truth. He reminds me of Casey Anthony both capable of preposterous lie after lie after lie.
Dennis said: “it is possible that Zimmerman still thought he was a criminal and shot him because he was trying to get away or break free”
Let’s run with that for a minute
Judge+jury+executioner from a guy who did not even understand the rules of NW?
boy oh boy, I hope he says something like that in public
“I’m begging you…”, shows that Trayvon was being abused and questioned before he was killed! There is just no other conclusion one can reach, if he did, indeed utter those words.
GZ might want to claim those words too, but it’s inconceivable that Trayvon would want to know where GZ lived, or that GZ would beg with a gun on his hip.
@Frederick
I don’t believe Zimmerman will even tell us the truth regarding what happened. I’m just an optimistic person and hope that he will see the light at the end of the tunnel and show some remorse. That is very unlikely, and most likely impossible for a depraved mind like Zimmerman’s.
That definitely makes sense. If there wasn’t any screaming going on when the neighbor came out and saw them wrestling, it seems more like Martin screamed once he saw the gun drawn on him.
Dennis, there was screaming going on when Jeremy came out and told them he was calling the cops. But notice what his wife told 911 — someone is screaming. It sounds like they’re screaming for help. While she was on the phone with 911, had Jeremy seen anything that 911 needed to know, he surely would have communicated that to his wife. That is why I say no one apparently saw anything to cause them to think that GZ was in danger.
It is also my reason for believing that is why GZ shot Trayvon. Trayvon’s screams brought attention to them. He had been unable to restrain Trayvon, and pulling his gun was his only way to try to gain control. As GZ told Hannity, he was nervous and terrified because he didn’t want the cops arriving and finding him standing there with a gun in his hand and shoot him.
Now, think about this — here’s this 17 yr old screaming for help, crying, unarmed, with a man holding a gun on him. Which one do you think the cop is going to aim his gun at? As GZ said, he was out of time.
@Xena
I was listening to one version of the call and the first scream I believe is definitely “help”. The second to last scream I analyzed in Audacity by slowing the tempo down and amplifying the scream. That one in particular is definitely two syllables or two words. I could not enhance it enough to make out what was exactly said, but to me it could be something like “let go”. Just with amplifying alone without adjusting the pitch or tempo, it definitely sounds like a teenager to me.
Ooops, my post above should have gone here.
I could be wrong, but didnt they conclude it wasnt Zimmerman with the audio technology?
I listened to that tape a lot and it sounds like a kid to me everytime. I even heard Zimmerman say its not him. I personally dont believe its Zimmerman. The screams have me concluded thay Zimmerman is truly evil person.
The two analysts said that it was only a 40% match and I think they said that somewhere around 90% or above would be needed to match the voice. They excluded Zimmerman as the voice due to the low percentage for a match.
Another fact is none of the screams sound vibrated or muffled…
I recorded screaming help while shaking my head, as if being cement bashed, & there is a vibration in the recording. Now if one was getting cement head bashed it would add another studder and vibration to the screaming…
There were also no muffled screams…
Plus the other evidence will conclusively show Zimmerman was never really attacked or in any mortal danger (without the obvious, which is Zimmerman is a violent aggressive bully who had lots of combat advantage over Trayvon) as forensics and ballistics, as well witnesses prove
plus it just does not sound like Zimmerman or his screaming help voice samples
@jun
Very good point. If he was being head bashed or MMA punched there would be pauses and muffles in the screams. They sound quite the opposite which proves in my mind that the person who is screaming is Martin.
This fact could also bit Zimmerman even if the jury believes it was him screaming. The lack of muffles in the screams show that person was not having their face beat in, which negates self-defense.
No punches to the face = no justifiable homicide
@Dennis
I just thought of another contradiction for Zimmerman
He claims to have been smothered. That would cause one to lose one’s breath and expel breath loudly before being unsmothered and then screaming. There were no such type sounds or dramatic stops to the screams…
Professor is correct, Zimmerman is boxed in by his own words and the evidence…
Robert Zimmerman may get perjury at trial. It would be perjury during a capital felony…
Very shrewd maneuvers by the state…
Totally agree with you Jun. Good point.
This is not a capital case.
@jun
What is Robert Zimmerman going to say to get him perjury? I have not been paying any attention to anything he has said besides claiming that his son was the one screaming.
@Dennis
Him claiming the screams are Zimmerman’s, then claiming he heard muffled screams, & Zimmerman has screamed like that before…
With Zimmerman’s own words boxing him in, especially these bombs…
“I didn’t want the cops to see me with my gun out and shoot me…”
“I took my gun out, aimed, and shot..”
And Zimmerman’s lack of injury, it leads one to ponder “why?”…
Robert Zimmerman sounds very scripted as he uses “absolutely 100% George” like a used car salesman selling you a lemon…
Just sounds as though Robert is saying things under oath he doesnt believe to be true
The prosecution has to do a very good job, having the expert explain what those numbers mean. I’ve argued with many people, who think that a 50% match is the same as a 1 in 2 chance the screams belong to Zimmerman.
Probably use terms like the DNA of a voice print. The DNA of humans and chimpanzees has a match of 98%.
I do not know which is lying on this point. DLR during cross examination of Zimmerman Sr. asked if George had ever been treated or diagnosed with mental illness or psychological disorder to which he responded, no. gz told Serino he was diagnosed with ADD as a child. Which one is lying?
@Freddy
Life felony?
I am forgetting the classification but I believe perjury is more significant during murder hearings?
If convicted, she could be sentenced up to a maximum of 5 years in prison, but I think this would be her first offense, so she’s probably looking at less than a year and maybe even probation.
logi – ADD is a developmental disorder. It wouldn’t necessarily be considered a psychological disorder, and certainly wouldn’t be considered a mental illness. So, I’m not sure that there is a discrepancy there.
I also heard that Zimmerman said something like “that doesn’t sound like me”, not sure if he used something like “that was not me”. Either way it sounds like a confession that he did not scream.
I personally don’t think Zimmerman screamed at all. Even if Martin elbowed him or hit him with the bag or cellphone in self defense, that would just piss Zimmerman off. He knows he has a gun on him so I really can’t see a reason for him screaming like a little girl for suffering any minor injuries. He surely would not have chased Martin down had he not been armed. The gun gave him a sense of security and power.
Another thing just crossed my mind. If Zimmerman had a broken nose and had blood coming out of it, wouldn’t that affect his voice? His screams would be much lower pitch too compared to Martin due to his age.
Another thing you will notice is, Zimmerman looked very uncomfortable when the scream tapes were played, & Daddy Zim was using his used car sales script of “absolutely 100% George”. You can see it at the second bond hearing. Its like he is realizing his lies may catch up to him.
Here is what proves that Trayvon was the one screaming.
1. The screams ended when his life ended.
2. His death face photo shows a tear on his cheek, and saliva coming out of his mouth.
If I were the prosecution, and in spite of knowing it will be hard on the parents, I would present that photo (blown up large and placed on an easel), when playing the recording of the screams.
@Xena
“Here is what proves that Trayvon was the one screaming.
1. The screams ended when his life ended.
2. His death face photo shows a tear on his cheek, and saliva coming out of his mouth.”
Xena, allow me to play the devil’s advocate here. It could equally be argued that Zimmerman stopped screaming loud at the very moment he fired the shot. Thus, Zimmerman’s screams after the shot was fired could not be captured on the 911 tape. Besides, a violent occurrence that abruptly ends one’s life could lead to the production of watery substances, such as tears in the eyes rolling down the cheek and foam/saliva in the mouth, and force urine from the urinary system to the underwear, etc. (I am neither a doctor nor a nurse. So feel very free to correct me where I am wrong). Thus, the presence of a tear on Trayvon’s cheek and saliva/foam from his mouth does not necessarily mean that he has been screaming. More (other than the tear on the cheek and saliva/foam from the mouth) is definitely needed to establish that the voice on the 911 tape is Trayvon’s.
I therefore think your argument is sound but not airtight. Somehow I fear that Zimmerman, if left standing after the proverbial boxing “last round”, will walk – no matter how badly bruised during the bout. I sure hope that my fear is unfounded and that the prosecution realizes that in order not to leave anything to chance, Zimmerman has to be knocked out.
But why would gz stop screaming the moment the shot was fired? I would think he would continue to scream for someone to help. Oh yeah, he was too busy turniing the body over, frisking it and reastraining. But wait, he didn’t know his shot hit, so he said, so I see no reason he would stop screaming at thatoment. I mean listen to it. You would think especially given he did not know he made contact (or so he said) one more scream would have overlapped. Nesodes, if he was being beaten and smashed into concrete, thats a lot of motion. Seems he would have at least stopped screaming for a moment BEFORE he shot, not the moment he did. But I do agree about the tear and all. But I need to thinl about this screaming and shooting some more.
LOL – I think “Nesodes,” is Besides. LOL I was texting on my phone, just woke up. Anyway, I just think it would be hard to be having face pounded, head smashed, scream and shoot all at the same time. And I don’t know why someone would be screaming while shooting.
Oh yeah, also, as pointed out by Xena, on Hannity, he said he was screaming so the police could find him, so again, why would he stop screaming?
good point didn’t think of that
Rachael says: “But why would gz stop screaming the moment the shot was fired?”
Excellent question, especially since Zimmerman claims he didn’t know if he shot Trayvon and claims Trayvon talked to him. (Not sure at this point but didn’t Zimmerman also claim Trayvon sat up as well?) So why didn’t Zimmerman continue to cry for help after the gunshot.
Can that be done, Professor?
@SearchingMind.
GZ does not say that he continued yelling for help. That in fact, GZ places the times that he yelled for help at the point after Trayvon purportedly punched him in the face, straddled him, and bashed his head. At no time did GZ say he was screaming for help when he “felt” that Trayvon was going for his gun. Yet, if was just before the shot that the screams were painful, and loudest.
When Sean Hannity asked GZ about the yells for help, he stated that he yelled for help to let the police know his location. Hence, after he fired his gun, there was no reason for him to continue screaming because the purported threat was over.
GZ stated he thought Trayvon had something in his hands when hitting him. He gives no statement for when Trayvon tossed whatever was in his hands, freeing them to cup BOTH hands over GZ’s nose and mouth, then pick them up again after GZ fired his gun.
These inconsistencies and what GZ does not say, leads to the logical conclusion that the screams for help did not come from his mouth.
“When Sean Hannity asked GZ about the yells for help, he stated that he yelled for help to let the police know his location. Hence, after he fired his gun, there was no reason for him to continue screaming because the purported threat was over.”
But that does not account for the fact that Zimmerman claims that he did not know if he shot Trayvon and that Trayvon spoke to Zimmerman. (Not sure, but I thought GZ said Trayvon also sat up after the gunshot.) Given Zimmerman’s “story” about what happened after the gunshot, wouldn’t Zimmerman continue to yell for help?
Jm, you’re being too logical.
If GZ took time to make sure his right arm was not in the path of his AIMED shot, then he knew that he shot Trayvon. That rush to restrain Trayvon was just an excuse because he was seen on Trayvon’s back. GZ needed to get blood on his hands that he could claim was his own, check for an exit wound, and see if there was a semblance of a weapon in Trayvon’s pockets giving him opportunity to say Trayvon was going for it, so he drew and fired his gun first.
IMO, that walking back and forth holding his head was not in disgust or concern for what he did but rather, because he found nothing to develop his story around. He knew that people heard the screams for help so claimed them as his own.
I’d have Zimmerman sr. vouch his 100% certainty for the 911 calls screams and Zimmerman’s sample screams, back to back.
Why? You know he would, even if he didn’t believe it.
If you listen to Papa Zim’s statement with investigators, he starts off by saying that the Martins heard the recording and said it was Trayvon screaming — almost as if he resented that he was not given opportunity to hear the tape and give his opinion too.
If people pay attention to Papa Zim, they should note 3 things that he stated that have continued during this case and that O’Mara based his arguments on at the bond hearings;
1. GZ was screaming for help.
2. GZ’s nose was broken.
3. GZ had cuts on his head.
Here’s the thing. Help arrived. Help arrived and for all of GZ’s purported screaming because he thought he was being killed, he refused that help — did not go to the hospital.
Let’s be reasonable, who cries out for help when they have the power to kill their assailant?
The only way GZ can reasonably make such a claim is,
1) He forgot he has the gun he always carries.
2) He isn’t able to use his gun.
1) Is rediculous beyond belief.
2) Cannot be demonstrated.
Obviously for him to make eye contact with witnesses who came out, the action had to cease, otherwise he’s subjected to continual negative stimulation, that won’t allow his attention to wander away.
Try to imagine yourself with a knife or a gun pointed at you. Then try to imagine yourself looking around to make eye contact with any witnesses who happen to be present. It’s the stuff you only see in Saturday morning cartoons, where the fighting ceases for a moment, so the characters can converse or make remarks to the audience.
GZ just doesn’t seem to understand the mechanics of a life threatening fight. If a fight is truly life threatening, you cannot take your focus away from it for even a split second. Thus, having the luxury to make eye contact with anyone not threatening you, you have to be comfortable that your life is not being threatened, and that it probably won’t be either.
How is an unarmed teen going to kill you? Smothering with his hands? All you have to do is turn your head and the hands slip away.
Besides, John sees them laying on top of each other only seconds before the shot is fired. They’re no where near any concrete and TM has no firearm, nor can he know that there is one around, because GZ’s gun is unidentifiable and behind him.
I think anybody that would listen to those two tapes would hear the difference. Claiming both sound exactly like his son, who used to scream like that all the time, would make sr. sound even more like a perjurer than he did at the second bond hearing.
But I may be wrong about that.
Frederick, didn’t one or more witnesses say the scream sounded like a little boy and not a full grown man? If that is true, then that would help prove that Martin was the one screaming.
Yes, Mary and Selma said that.
the teacher and the dog lady also, thats four by my count, out of seven
@ Professor
“It also does not mean that the 911 tape cannot be cleaned up to filter out other noise and enhanced to amplify the sound of the voice. There is a generally accepted technology regarding how that’s done.”
Do we know if this has not been done yet? This, in all reasonability, must have been the very first thing the prosecution must have done regarding the identification of the voice on the 911 tape.
Furthermore, I think that what is on the tape is not just important in determining the identity of the voice on the said tape, casu quo debunking the self-defense claim of Zimmerman, but also in establishing an important element of murder2: ‘depraved mind’. Ultimately, it is the combination of the words and phrases uttered and recorded on the said tape that will lead the jury to the identity of the person screaming. Zimmerman can still claim that he was the one yelling help, help, no, …..’ But the presence of ‘I don’t know’, ‘I am begging you’, ‘mama’, etc. in the equation will effectively rule Zimmerman out as the person screaming. From there, one will by necessity deduce that Zimmerman killed (in Zimmerman’s own words) a “kid” who was screaming for help and begging for his life. THAT is a classic definition of “depraved mind”.
I listened to the tape again and it does not sound like the woman is talking ever at the same time as the screams. The screams were loud enough to be heard by a cellphone so I assume they should be able to amplify the voices and make it more clear. I definitely could hear the word “help” at least once or twice. I’m going to browse the web to see if I can find software to amplify and enhance the audio recording.
Ask Whonoze
There was also a rumor somewhere that it was enhanced so that it could be heard Zimmerman interrogating Trayvon – which is where I guess the “I don’t know” came from, but it was a rumor, I think. But if there was a way that an actual “conversation” was enhanced and could be picked out, OMG!!!
depraved mind.
Please do not pay attention to my above comment, I can’t even substantiate a rumor now. Sigh.
Sorry.
Yep.
In subsequent interviews, both by police and media, George stressed that, ‘I called for help and no-one would help me.’
Apart from being self-absorbed I/Me statements and an attempt to flick-pass* the blame to the neighbours, George was already aware that not one of the witnesses could, with surety, attest to who was screaming.
*Flick-pass is an Australian Rules football term; throwing the ball is prohibited, it must be punched from the hand. A flick-pass is one that is borderline legal and was too fast for the eye to follow.
Professor, you say:
The voice is not just screaming. The person screaming
The person screaming apparently said things like,
“I’m begging you.”
“Help.”
I don’t know.”
“No.”
Some people claim to have heard “Mama.”
But if there is no “enhanced” version where any of those words were “clear,” they would not be able to say that, would they? Wouldn’t that be like “leading” the jury?
But would they be able to say something like, “Listen very carefully and see if you can hear what is being said?” I mean that lets them know that something “perhaps” is being said and makes them listen and they might argue about what they think they hear, but if they listen to it several times, I’m sure they will hear something.
Would that be okay to do?
Given the importance of the 911 tape and the decisive weight that it carries/may carry (and there are other known evidence that carry decisive weight in the case against Zimmerman), whatever is on that tape – enhanced or not – must either be audible to any average person, or a recognized expert must under oath testify to the content thereof. Leaving the members of the jury to listen to the tape in question and literarily guess and decide for themselves the content thereof, is dangerous and IMO irresponsible, and I do not think the prosecution will be doing that. I am confident that the prosecution, before introducing the 911 tape, must have ascertained (a) what exactly is recorded on it (through the process of enhancement, etc. and (b) to which conclusion(s) that which is recorded (must) lead. This way the prosecution “ties” the jury’s hands and leads it to where the prosecution wants it to go. No reasonable attorney/prosecutor leaves anything to chance.
True. Thanks.
Agreed!
“, “I’m begging you.” “Help.” I don’t know.” “No.” ”
My guess is, if asked for the address of the house TM was staying in, he wouldn’t know it, because he hasn’t had to use it often enough.
Excellent thought! The first time someone pointed out the “I don’t know” to me, I assumed GZ was grilling him about previous burglaries – but his address makes more sense. You are good!! LOL
“I’m begging you… Help!”
That has to be something painful being done to him, while he’s being questioned, there simply is no other reasonable interpretation, for it to be followed by “I don’t know”. As I said, the only relevant thing I can think of that TM wouldn’t know, and that GZ would want to know immediately, would be TM’s address.
Obviously GZ wanted an address, because he wanted to keep believing that TM could not possibly live around here. So, GZ is afraid to ask: “Which house? Where? Point it out!? Because if Trayvon pointed to a house, he’d have no choice but to try to check it out or leave.
By asking a youth for an address, there’s a good chance they won’t be able to give you one, unless they’ve lived there for quite awhile. So, just as GZ was preserving his own hostile attitude, he was trying hard to avoid having it disturbed. So, he doesn’t even chance asking “where do you live?”, because the youth maybe able to point. Asking a question “What’s your address?” will probably be interpreted literally, as a house number and street name by a youth, leading to exactly the confusion GZ wants.
And, even if he knows the number and street name, most youths are trained not to give their addresses to strangers anyway, giving GZ another layer of protection for his animus driven hostility.
GZ, the kid is begging you! Thugs don’t beg they fight back. They kick, they bite and they gouge! If it’s painful they curse and swear! You knew you had a helpless kid on your hands and you thought nothing of digging in deeper. No wonder you shot him, you realized you couldn’t turn back. After this questioning him in a painful hold, you knew that you’d be going to prison for a very long time, if the police arrived! Because they’d find TM crying and rubbing himself, and complaining about what you had done. The police would have no choice but to arrest you for assault… And then they’d discover your gun! You’ve been to law school, so I’ll let the lawyers here tell us what you’d have been facing if you had let TM live. My guess is you’d find it very scary!
his own father didn’t know the address off hand, he had to ask Brandi when he called to report him missing…..
No, an enhanced tape could be admitted to compare to the original.
This one is rather long,about 11 minutes.
Wow. Thank you.
At the beginning the announcer say you can hear nuffled screams. They do not sound muffled to me, I.e. like hand over mouth to muffle, maybe he means muffled as in the background?
It’s my impression that the announcer used “muffled” because they are heard in the background of the call, and not because the screams are muffled.
Serino questions GZ about the screams and smothering.
Oh — addendum. In his Hannity interview, GZ says that he screamed for the cops to locate him. Hence, he was not screaming for help because he believed his life was about to end.
Ouch, that is another big contradiction for Zimmerman. If that version is even remotely true, that proves that he was not in danger. Either way, I don’t believe it was him screaming. His multiple lies and contradictions make it almost impossible for a jury to believe his version of what happened. Lies and manipulation are signs of guilt, hopefully the jury sees that. Innocent people have no reason to lie. He already had a previous relationship with that police department so it isn’t conceivable for him to hide facts from them or lie to them.
@Dennis
its not just one lie either
To be honest, I have lost count at how many times Zimmerman and his cohorts have lied
Not only that, but since he wasn’t at his vehicle or near the mailboxes how does he know the cops know where to find him?
If the cops had a direct location to go to, it might have made the difference in TM being alive or not. Who’s to say they weren’t driving around for 60 seconds before hearing a gun shot?
Was George asked to scream as close to the manner in which he screamed that night, or was he just asked to scream. He had a chance to hear the tape because Serino played it for him. The pattern was not even close.
@logi – Either way…either GZ couldn’t emulate the sound he heard on the 911 tape or he didn’t want to emulate the sound he heard on the 911. Either/or is damning.
Another fact into question is one of the cops was supposed to call Zimmerman upon arrival as that is what was Zimmerman requested
I’m not sure if Zimmerman was called by the police when they arrived as requested. The dispatcher most likely received phone calls from the concerned residents right before the police arrived in the neighborhood.
1. Zimmerman refused to tell the dispatcher to which street or address to send the police to and instead told them to call him once they got into the neighborhood.
2. Zimmerman shot a kid, got on top of him, and ordered the witness not to call paramedics.
Those two facts alone are very troubling, regardless of the rest of the evidence.
Ofc. Smith got to R@TL(clubhouse) like 20 second before the shot was fired. It took him about another two minutes to get over to the T.
A fight with a gunshot would take precedence over the sighting of a suspicious character.
“Dr. James Wayman also said he would be willing to testify against the admissibility of Owen’s findings on the grounds that they don’t meet the criteria required for evidence in federal courts.”
Frederick, I have a few legal questions that I would be thankful if you gave me an insight on.
1. Since Zimmerman is being tried in a State District court, not in Federal court, is the court bound by federal laws regarding evidence or testimony admission?
2. Do you think Owen will testify for the prosecution or will they instead have FBI voice analyst experts instead? Some forensic experts such as Dr. James Wayman seem to find Owen’s analysis “unscientific”. He believes Owen’s analysis should be inadmissible.
3. Will Dr. James Wayman testify for the defense due to his comments “
You said,
My Answer:
(1) No. Florida state courts follow Rule 702 of the rules of evidence and the Frye Rule. Federal courts follow Rule 702 of the Federal Rules of Evidence and Daubert v. Merrell Dow.
This means expert testimony is admissible if it would assist the jury to determine a fact in issue (Rule 702) and testimony about a novel scientific theory or technological process is not admissible unless there is general agreement in the relevant scientific/technological community that the theory or procedure is generally accepted as reliable and capable of producing accurate results.
(2) Other than using long accepted techniques to filter out noise and enhance voices, I do not believe it’s necessary to reach for the stars and risk introducing an appellate issue that could potentially tip the case. Technological wizardry to match the scream to a voice is unnecessary and risky.
(3) Dr. Wayman’s testimony would be irrelevant.
I agree. I think it would be best to let the jury decide who was screaming while taking into consideration the other evidence. After amplifying the screams in Audacity, it sounds so much like a kid screaming that it is horrifying. I can’t even listen to it again it is that horrible.
I was on youtube and there is a video name George Zimmerman interviewed by Investigators Singleton then Serino but during his interview with Serino, George was describing the event and George stated how Trayvon was bashing his head to the concrete and he(Trayvon) called for help.
George: After he hit my head against the concrete several uhh… he yelled out for help.
Serino: Who yelled for help?
George: I did….
There’s another proof that George didn’t yell for help
Meant to say several times
There was also one on the reenactment where he says, “I put my hand over – he put his hand over my mouth.”
I suppose it could have been just an accidental slip up under the stress of everything but. . .nah.
Yes I heard that and he had another slip up. A guy on youtube name Trent Sawyer was talking how Zimmerman suppose to got his injuries. In that video Zimmerman said Trayvon was hitting his head on ground or a sign and that caught my attention cause if u look at George’s injuries to his head they don’t seem like his head was bashed to the ground. I’m not a medical expert but one would think his injuries should have been in the middle part in the back of the head not the upper right. In my opinion Zimmerman was trying to restrain Martin and Trayvon accidentally elbowed George in the nose and George’s hit the dog sign. That would explain how he got that cut in the upper right of his head.
Yep. The sign part caught my attention too and I thought of the dog sign too.
He also did a similar thing on his initial police call, started to say my wife and I then changed it to I, which is I think where people think maybe Shellie was with him.
LOL. GZ is toast.
Burnt toast.
@ Dennis
“Dr. James Wayman also said he would be willing to testify against the admissibility of Owen’s findings on the grounds that they don’t meet the criteria required for evidence in federal courts.”
Hi Dennis, I think the Prof. will be addressing your question soon. Before that, I wish to remark the following:
Dr. James Wayman (whoever he is) may ONLY bear testimony regarding the reliability of the science applied by Owen. However, he may not testify for/against “the admissibility” of anything. The trial judge – the parties having been heard – rules by exclusivity on the question of admissibility based on a set of purely legal criteria.
I do know that the judge decides if the evidence is admissible or not. I definitely agree with Frederick regarding the concern over admitting unscientific evidence or testimony. In the movie Star Chamber, the judge (Michael Douglas) was forced to exclude critical evidence that was obtained from an unlawful search of the vehicle. He refused to allow the evidence into the case because he knew that would cause the conviction to be shot down by the appeals court.
Mr Leatherman,
You may already be aware but I only saw a warning this morning about your blog.
It was on Huffington Post.
The comment stated your blog had viruses.
The Zimmerman supporters must really be threatened by the truth and common sense found at your blog.
They are getting desperate !
Thanks for the heads-up. No viruses here.
They haven’t been inviting me to their parties, which is absolutely devastating.
Somehow, I’ll find a way to pick up my sorry bones and carry-on.
Of course, as anyone with a functioning brain cell knows, I did not kill Trayvon Martin.
George Zimmerman did and he is the issue.
Good morning and welcome to my blog.
This suspicious url has been posted on this site several times. Note the period in yout.ube:
==============================================
Rachael commented on Zimmerman: The Shriek is Admissible.
in response to Xena:
This one is rather long,about 11 minutes. http://youtu.be/x2r9I2tnnGs
At the beginning the announcer say you can hear nuffled screams. They do not sound muffled to me, I.e. like hand over mouth to muffle, maybe he means muffled as in the background?
================================================
Clearly anyone who has visited that site is at risk, because it’s
not the official Youtube site. But probably one that contains a virus.
I read the url and noticed the period and didn’t visit the site.
Yeah. Truth virus.
LOL.
LMBO!
@Lonnie. I hope you’re doing a comparison to the faux Youtube site as opposed to the vids that I embedded. I would never, ever embed a link to a site that is suspicious. I just Googled for info on this, and there is a Snopes article about a virus that was sent via Facebook and MySpace to a faux YouTube site that instructs users to download a Flash program in order to see the vid. It’s that downloaded program that contains the virus.
Additionally, I use a virus protection program on my own computer and at least twice, it has not accessed websites and issued a warning of threat. IOWs, it keeps the door closed and I never second guess it.
I only noted that the url was not for the genuine youtube site. I did not investigate beyond that.
That comment just made my day. The trolls are attacking the credibility of Frederick and the other witnesses because they know we are on the right track.
Well that and because they are just stupid trolls.
There’s another document dump scheduled for the 19th that they are apparently afraid of. The Division of Licensing has suspended Shellie’s CC license, and the Osterman book has received very bad reviews. Dr. Phil showed compassion for Trayvon’s parents who demonstrate the utmost humility and decency. Not once on that program did they say anything negative about GZ, so the Zimbots have no words to use against them. That is like heaping hot coals on the heads of Zimbots.
Fred~ ~I think it is time you brought in the big guns to get rid of the all the naysayers who want to disrupt your blog. They worked for me when I was being put through the wringer. These guys are fresh out of boot camp and ready to be deployed to the battle fields. If they want to sling it then these little soldiers will roll it and sling it back. They are yours free of charge and I will have no problem getting them cleared through customs ….here you go…
Just for you, Fred
Oh btw, good morning…
Professor Leatherman, You changed your post just as I had made an entry on the previous one of presentations. I realize I am not of
scholarly standing, not yet, but as a novice and suppose an average thinker, would you mind terribly reading my attempt and
evaluating so it can be or not be of any value. I would not expect to be “legally” but let’s say maybe common sense wise. Thank you,
Digger
Will do.
I reviewed and posted my comment.
Very much appreciate your time and consideration. Thank you!
When you hear that horrible 911 tape, you visualize something happening. In that “something happening” you cannot visualize a kid on top of an armed man, dominating him, as George now claims. (Also, if it had really happened that way, George would not be telling that story; he would be ashamed and embarrassed and humiliated to tell it; he would be mixing it up so he was on top half the time and Trayvon on top the other half the time and finally he realized he was in danger so he shot; he wouldn’t go with, “I was a total wus.”)
You visualize George having his gun out WELL BEFORE HE SHOT; you visualize him showing Trayvon the gun and Trayvon wailing and screaming, trying to hide and get away, unarmed, undefended, and in terror.
Sound makes a film. Without the sound you don’t even get the story. And if the sound is good, you get the story even if the visuals are not terrific. The sound on the 911 tape does not tell us exacctly what happened, but it does tell a story. George Zimmerman chased down, trapped, terrified and slaughtered a defenseless kid.
I’m feeling very confident that the last scream is Martin reacting to a gun being pulled and pointed at him. I was watching the Dr. Phil interview with Martin’s family late last night. It was very heartbreaking because Martin seemed like a very sweet boy. He cared for his 8 year old step-brother like he was his own blood, which is why he walked to 7-11 on a cold rainy night to get him Skittles. He saved his father from a fire in the kitchen by dragging him out of the house.
Retired FBI agent Steve Moore would definitely inclined to believe Zimmerman is guilty of murder due to his violent past. Moore says most murderers that kill in cold blood display violence in their history. The lawful facts say that Zimmerman assaulted a federal agent and also beat his ex-girlfriend. That evidence alone will be why O’Mara will not want to play the “character assassination” game.
Professor Leatherman, I do not understand how the screams can be admitted except for timing with the shot. IMO there is no way anyone can determine the screams (yes, I believe they are of Trayvon) positively, as either.
The fact is, Trayvon is not here so that a live scream from him and George Zimmerman can be done and compared today. On the particular evening of February 26, 2012, what is there to prove that one or the other did not have a vocal under distress therefore changing the tone of their scream. There are other issues as well,
being who had who at bay in that instant of the gun being fired.
Correctly so, it is hard to believe that a person’s concentration can be such that they would coincide their scream exactly the same second as they fired a shot. I doubt if it ever entered the mind of
Zimmerman to scream at such a time. That leaving the only one to scream was Trayvon.
Therefore, trying to identify the “sound” of the scream is not as important as to associate it with what was actually happening between the two physically, who would be the one in such distress as to have “needed help”. Of course GZ says he needed help so this is where “timing” comes in. WHO had the upperhand, WHO was about to die, as a gun was placed directly at his heart?
AND WHY did George not continue to scream for help to REVIVE the boy after the shot???????????
because zimmermans INTENT was for martin to DIE, this was a cold blooded murder, there is NO evidence of any kind showing martin to be the aggressor, not one shred…….
He could be just a feckless fool who reacts without thinking of the consequences of his actions.
Or he could have begun playacting immediately after shooting, telling himself, “a LEO would do this, and this…”
Zimmerman is both a feckless fool and also play acting what an LEO would do. Zimmerman’s mentor is Mark Osterman, both a feckless fool and an LEO.
The 9/11 calls are evidence. It is perfectly acceptable in my mind to play those calls to a jury and let them decide who was screaming by taking into consideration all of the other evidence against Zimmerman. The definite reason why it should be admissible is the fact that it shows that Zimmerman’s statements contradict his ability to have been the one screaming.
1. Face being beaten and head slammed into concrete
2. Claims that Martin covered his mouth and nose
These two facts negate the possibility of Zimmerman being the one screaming. People would have to be very naive to believe that Zimmerman could let out 3-4 screams without them being interrupted or muffled while taking a beating. If he was punched during the act of screaming, we would be able to tell by analyzing the scream and amplifying it. I even slowed down the tempo of the screams and there are no pauses or interruptions during the screams from what I could tell.
Based on the forensic evidence alone, #1 and #2 have been deemed false, which proves that Zimmerman was not the one screaming for help. Just taking one good punch to the face could easily knock you unconscious or disorient you. Several beatings to the face and head would negate the possibility of you screaming. I can’t even begin to describe the level of fear and intensity in those chilling screams. Surely, it does not sound like a man that knows he has a fully loaded pistol on his waist.
Some thoughts about GZ’s head injuries. I think he hit the “handle” area of the concrete squares twice. One time produced the lacerations and the bruises of a circle at the larger laceration and above that laceration in a straight line to the smaller laceration. There is also another circular bruise just above the larger laceration. And expert might be able to determine which bruise occurred first. I would expect that the bruise without the lacerations occurred first, then a sharper bump produced the lacerations and the rest of the bruises.
They could be caused by Trayvon bashing GZ’s head down. They could also be caused by GZ trying to sit up and then falling back b/c he couldn’t get enough leverage to get up.
The grass was wet too so it is also plausible that he slipped and his the back of his head on something like the concrete, or as someone else mentioned, a sprinkler head. The lack of bruising on the back of Zimmerman’s head tells me it was not something very hard like concrete. If it was concrete I would expect more bruises than scrapes/cuts, but to my knowledge not even a single bruise was inflicted.
the blood flow pattern shows the injuries did NOT happen with zimmerman on his back, clearly NO smearing of any type and obvious flow down and forward, a person standing UP and looking down when the bleeding happened……
But you are looking at the bleeding after he was cleaned up at the scene. What we saw later might be new bleeding after he was cleaned up at the scene and standing up – or did they take pictures right there at the scene before EMT cleaned him up, I can’t remember.
NO, i am looking at the bleeding on the cell phone picture taken BEFORE the cleanup, after the cleanup there was NO more bleeding as shown when he arrived at the police station/////AFTER the cleanup there was NO blood flow patterns to be seen
If I recall Zimmerman asked a witness or somebody at the scene to take a picture of his head. Perhaps Frederick can verify if this is true because I am not positive. If that is true, it seems like Zimmerman knew he was in trouble so he took it upon himself to document his own injuries. Now it seems like he was playing police officer, judge, executioner, and detective all at once. His mind is seriously depraved.
<blockquote? If I recall Zimmerman asked a witness or somebody at the scene to take a picture of his head. Perhaps Frederick can verify if this is true because I am not positive. If that is true, it seems like Zimmerman knew he was in trouble so he took it upon himself to document his own injuries. Now it seems like he was playing police officer, judge, executioner, and detective all at once. His mind is seriously depraved.
Which brings us to the question — why would GZ not trust the cops to take pics of his injuries? It wasn’t like those boo-boos were going to immediately heal.
Yes, he did have someone take a picture of his head at the scene – I think, but I’m not sure, it was the same neighbor he discussed the caliber and hollow point bullet with. And I think they took his phone for evidence.
Yes, George has some control issues and wants to do it all himself. I’m kind of surprised that he hasn’t fired O’Mara yet and said he is going to represent himself.
is the picture you are talking about? witness took @ scene before police arrived
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9218101/George-Zimmerman-pictured-with-bloodied-head-after-Trayvon-Martin-shooting.html
Agreed the injury pictures were taken BEFORE clean up by the same guy who wook a pic of Trayvon dead.
John, a witness at the scene before or when the Police arrived took pictures with his cell phone, while GZ was standing in the scene, before he was cleaned up.
Bill Taylor, right.
What confuses me is this: 1 picture before clean-up. Then no blood during transport and upon arrival at police station. Then 1 more picture AFTER clean-up against a greyish-beige WALL. He is not outdoors in that second picture, but the blood pattern is pretty much the same as the first shot! Something is fishy and it ain’t herring.
TY, not one picture showing any smearing has been seen? to have your head repeatedly bashed onto concrete REQUIRES there be extreme bleeding and smearing all over the back of the head, plus a lot blood on the concrete, and NONE of it could possibly flow down and forward to his chin…….and with no hair to grab Martins hands would have to be covered in zimmermans dna.
Wouldn’t the blood in the beard be from the minor nosebleed?
one problem – the source is shown by the trail and it came from near the top of the head……but you do raise a good point there SHOULD be a lot of blood from the nose that is NOT there.
But not all punches to the nose yield a gusher.
Forgive me if this sounds gross and offends, but I remember having nose bleeds as a child, and other children having nose bleeds in school. The first reaction is to wipe your nose with your sleeve, then tilt your head back. Tilting the head back causes the blood to run in your throat, then you hock and spit and cry for your mommy.
IOW’s why would GZ be on the phone and a resident taking a pic of his head while his nose was bleeding? That should have resulted in blood running down his shirt or maybe on his pants.
While on his back screaming for help, his nose bleeding into his throat, certainly should have produced some gurgling sounds and perhaps a bit of hucking and coughing as well. Eh?
Could the trail from the head just join the pool in the beard? At any rate, he looks like he spent far more time over TM than TM spent over him.
Dale Gilbreath is a blood splatter expert. I am confident that he knows a bit about blood trickle, too.
[You responded to an internet troll and Zeebot who goes by the name Knuckledraggingwino. He hangs out at the Conservative Treehouse. He also ended his comment with a veiled threat. I banned him for restating the same ridiculous and absurd arguments that the Zeebots endlessly repeat and for threatening me. Since his comment is gone, I deleted your comment responding to it.]
And lets not forget Zimmerman said Trayvon covered his mouth & nose. He said Trayvon was suffocating him but no dna on his hands. I’d see Trayvon not having any dna on his hands if Zimmerman nose wasn’t broken but George said Trayvon broke his nose after the first punch. I don’t see George or his legal team to have a good defense on that. George messed himself up by not remaining silent and he had the right to an attorney. He should have waited for an attorney before speaking but I believe somehow George would have still messed it up lol.
dont need blood for dna transfer, saliva and sweat both have plenty and you CANT possibly cover a person mouth and nose with both hands and not get dna transfer.
@Bill Taylor
Exactly. Sweat and skin cells contain DNA. Unless the person just washed and scrubbed their hands vigorously they would surely leave DNA evidence from sweat or skin cells. I learned very much regarding DNA while researching the Amanda Knox case. The blood trails going down Zimmerman’s face and also down the back of his head are pretty much untouched. If Martin was covering his mouth and nose, the blood would be smeared on his face and there would also be evidence on Martin’s hands. The jury is going to believe Zimmerman is so full of crap it isn’t even conceivable for why he told so many lies, unless he was covering up the fact that he committed murder.
If TM held the cell phone and managed somehow to punch GZ mainly with that, perhaps getting more than one swipe in (which might explain both the injuries to the nose and the back of the head, since once you’re punched in the nose, in my own experience, you tend to bend forward and I can picture TM then stabbing downward at the back of GZs head) it might put all the DNA on the phone rather than his hands.
I can picture GZ then trying to hold onto TM by grabbing his hoody (he had to aim his pistola with his right hand past his left hand to avoid shooting it, and the left hand must have been holding some portion of GZs hoody). Or if TM managed this almost knock-out sucker punch on GZs schnoz after being confronted by GZ, then GZ may have sustained the cuts on the back of the head if he fell as reported. It would appear to me that they may have rolled on the ground at some point, but that GZ likely pulled his firearm and that’s when the screams began.
IMO, GZ didn’t give Trayvon time to physically do anything. He had that kid in a cop take-down move that caused Trayvon to scream, and DeeDee to hear, “Get off. Get off.”
Oh — and let’s not forget that according to GZ’s story, he must have held on to his tactical flashlight as he shimmied his bubble butt 40 ft down the dogpath.
OMG, the visual I just had picturing that!
@Xena: Very interesting your comment about keeping hold of his flashlight throughout his moving “shimmy”… if he held on to it why didn´t he protect himself by hitting Trayvon with it when he was bashing him about?
A witness did see Zimmerman down the path as if he slipped and fell
Yes jun, I think it was the boy whose dog got away. And you know, even if lets say he was knocked down because Trayvon did sock him in the nose there, he got up and continued pursuit. That is NOT self defense.
@gbrbsb
That’s the thing. It’s not only what GZ says but what he doesn’t say that makes me go hmmmm. Not once in any of his interviews does he mention when, where, and how he dropped his key chain with the small flashlight, neither where, when and why he turned it on.
Not once does he mention when, where, and how he dropped his tactical flashlight.
Trayvon’s cell phone was on the ground close to his body, but GZ makes no mention of seeing Trayvon with it.
What surprises me more is that in his interviews, Serino and Singleton never asked GZ about those things EITHER. The closest Serino came was telling GZ that all he had to do to get his tactical flashlight to work was bang on it.
I am not sure of the boy’s location of what he witnessed
but since its down the back pathway and that corroborates the aggravated stalking from Zimmerman, so it corroborates the witness who saw the chase, & Deedee
I hope the judge allows the boy’s mother to be there and protect him as I know Zimmerman may try to intimidate the boy with Omara
“I can picture GZ then trying to hold onto TM by grabbing his hoody (he had to aim his pistola with his right hand past his left hand to avoid shooting it, and the left hand must have been holding some portion of GZs hoody).”
I think GZ had to have grabbed the front of TM’s sweatshirt and shirt with his left hand and pulled them down and to the left to get his left hand out of the way of TM’s heart where GZ shot him.
OK, well I forgot what I wrote anyway so it’s no loss…
Awww, poor Shellie
http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/20180186/article-Shellie-Zimmerman-may-have-concealed-weapons-license-suspended-by-State?instance=home_news_right
At least she didn’t run around pursuing people. We hope.
For all we know, she was right there in the truck with him that night.
Did you know that according to the FBI he tried to buy more guns after he shot Trayvon because he felt his life was in danger? Don’t know if he succeeded though.
GZ attempted to purchase 3 guns. The dealer reported it to the FBI, and only sold him one. That gun was found in the rental car that GZ used to drive to the FDLE in Jacksonville after calling Corey asking for her protection. In that car, GZ also had a knife, 3 loaded clips, a laptop and flash drive, and a pack of chewing gun, all removed by LE.
The foremost expert in voice analysis for this case has weighed in on the screams:
:’(
x 2.
Thank you, LLMPapa.
LLMpapa: Whoever you are, over all these months now you have made some of the most poignant, intelligent, incisive, thought provoking and even beautiful videos for this case. I think I understand why you have blocked comments & ratings for them on youtube; you don´t need them as these would only serve to detract from their purpose and their essence because to coin a phrase, “one good image is worth a thousand words”, even if of praise.
(Sorry professor posted in wrong place below so feel free to remove dupe and leave this to reply to LLMpapa)
[Thanks for mentioning it. I took care of it]
LLMPapa. Words cannot express how much I appreciate your videos. I embedded “The Watcher” on my blog, and discovered yesterday that someone linked it and directly to your vid on Craig’s List in Orlando, FL. to “the (((((family))))). Oh I how pray that if Trayvon’s family finds that video, that it fills them with comfort and encouragement.
You have a way of leaving me speechless and that’s difficult to do.
Thanks for all that you do and for sharing it with us.
Each of us do what we can, Professor. I learned long ago that I don’t have the word skills to get a point across. If I had your way with words, I’d probably never do another video.
Your skills are superb and you’re making an impact in this fight for justice.
Thank You and all who have shown their appreciation for what I do to express my thoughts.
Perfection. Thank you.
@Frederick
I don’t want to go off-topic in this post, but is there any chance you could comment regarding the case of Christian Fernandez. State Attorney Angela Corey decided to charge him as an adult for 1st degree murder. He was abused physically and sexually as a child and I believe his actions are a direct result of the terrible childhood he endured. I am shocked that Corey does not believe that this child deserves rehabilitation and a second chance at a life that he never had.
Wow – He’s only 13. I thought they could no longer sentence juveniles to life, or is that only in my state? But wow, what a mess.
Nope – not just my state:
The U.S. Supreme Court ruled this summer that it is unconstitutional for juvenile offenders to get mandatory life sentences without parole. Because of that, Fernandez’ defense attorneys said they can’t advise their client what kind of sentence he could face.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57514490-504083/cristian-fernandez-13-year-old-fla-boy-faces-life-in-prison-for-allegedly-murdering-his-2-year-old-half-brother/
Looks like SCOTUS ruled that juveniles cannot be sentenced to life, but Florida has yet to change its law, so the prosecutors are simply asking for what Florida law provides. It’s really up to the judge to decide sentencing anyway.
The circuit court judge has ordered that Christian’s confession is inadmissible, and the State has filed appeal to that order. If the Appellate court affirms, that can change the direction of this case for Christian. His mom has already been sentenced for manslaughter.
Like many child psychologists said years ago — the abused grow up to be abusers. And, like a man in Canada said once when speaking about not returning evil for evil and turning the other cheek; whatever manner people have been controlled is what they use to control others. The way to overcome returning evil for evil is to first learn to control yourself, and that is the premise of turning the other cheek.
Gee Rachael. We were posting at the same time.
I believe the boy should be placed in a mental institution and rehabilitated until he is seen fit to return to society. Throwing him in prison for 40 years or life is not going to accomplish anything. Judging by how Corey is handling this case, I would assume she will recommend life in prison for Zimmerman if he is convicted.
I can agree he is young and a result of a cycle of violence but at the same time the kid is psychotic. He murdered his 2 year old sibling. I dont have all the answers or solutions but its fairly barbaric to kill a defenseless innocent little baby. Its scary to think what the kid would do in the future
totally agree love LLMpapa
you are correct, that was said to witness 18 the school teacher from her written statement from discovery dump 1
Q: Do you have anything else to say or add to this statment.
A: Yes, the Detective also told me that the broad built man was the one who was screaming, he said you should of seen him he was all scratched or beaten up.
I have a new post up:
Zimmerman: Snapshot of an Opening Statement