I’ve been out and about most of the day and never had an opportunity to write a new post today.
I did get something accomplished. I passed my motorcycle road test and now I don’t have to wear a helmet anymore.
My dark and nasty side always wanted to be a Hells Angel. Oh well, better to leave that persona in dreamland.
The thread is getting too long on the Character Assassination article, so I thought I would start a new thread and, for starters, work off this website that I had not seen before.
Check out the trajectory of the ejected shell casing on the KelTec PF9 and tell me what y’all think about the relative positions of the bodies when the fatal shot was fired.
(H/T to Sling Trebuchet for bringing the video to my attention)
“and now I don’t have to wear a helmet anymore.”
Well I do hope you will continue to wear one out of common sense and self-preservation. A helmetless head hitting pavement at ~30 – 50 mph is not a pretty sight and not survivable. If you want to kill yourself I suggest an overdose as being far more reliable and far less painful.
My tongue was firmly planted in my cheek, Aussie.
Don’t worry. I drive carefully.
Professor Im a bit tired but had to post some videos concerning the gun. StateOFTheArt have 4 excellente on asking residents to go and check there patio door….George was looking in patio doors…
Professor – Will we be seeing you and your lovely partner in Sturgis, SD next year. Good times. You ain’t that far away and the ride would take you through some beautiful landscapes, for sure.
Reply to EveryOneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion. No one is saying that GZ was checking in patios. stateoftheinternet is asking if anyone can tape record the sound of the patio doors because he feels the oh-so-much debated gun sound or flashlight-banging sound may be GZ entering a patio. He feels the sound just may be the opening of the door. He is asking that because the knocks after the sound may be GZ knocking on the inside door. Please be accurate. His request is no more than an effort to getting a close to the truth as anyone else because we can not rely on GZ providing that. Isn’t that what we all want.
Reply to EveryOneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion: I find his videos great because he does his research and finds his opinion based on that research by using visuals and timings. He has timed the sound of what he feels may be GZ opening the patio door and then knocking on the inside door. He feels the timing fits. By asking someone to record the sound, he wants to see if he may be correct in his supposition.
I have no doubt that you drive carefully, but when you are on a motorcycle, it isn’t YOUR driving I’m worried about. LOL. Why do I feel like I am talking to my son.
My dad’s a medical doctor, and nearly has a heart attack whenever he sees a motorcyclist zoom by sans helmet.
Just sayin’.
Thank god for that, Mr. Leatherman; we can’t afford to lose you!
To: Sandra E. Graham. I did state I was tired and just wanted to share with everyone. Sorry Professor if the videos offended the blogger…. Again I was exhausted and wanted to share before I turned in…. Can’t be specific when exhausted…
No sweat. I made my comment because of your last sentence regarding the video. It was late, you were tired and I wanted to make sure that those reading your comment weren’t getting inaccurate information along the chain. You know how comments made are misinterpreting along the way sometimes. Thanks for responding. And, thanks for including the video.
Despite your tongue being firmly wedged in your cheek, your mind is much too valuable to waste AND it’s not YOUR driving I’m worried about, therefore PLEASE always wear a helmet, when on your motorbike! There, I’ve said what needed to be said, I’m done!
LLMPapa posted the shell casing eject path video a couple of months ago. Here is a video rebuttal. Get ready to use your bleep button.
That guy is so annoying! I couldn’t stomach him anymore!
Reply to RNSONE He does have a way with words but he makes good sense, IMO. Too bad you can’t stomach him any more and I wonder why.
@Sandra: Probably for the fact that Superflexican is one of those people who HATES having things he missed pointed out to him. BTDT and he’s a bit of a pig. He can have good points all he wants, but if he can’t play nice with people who are on the same team there is little point in bothering to watch his vids. Of course he was the same way when he was defending George so really no surprise.
@ Sandra E. Graham:See rayvenwolf’s comment below yours and you will have your answer.Thanks rayvenwolf!
I should have provided a better warning. Sorry! It’s been a long time since I listed to him, and I cringed. But, I think he made a good point that ejected shell casings go all over the place and are affected by many variables like shooting position.
longtimegeek: You and I seem to be on the same page. TM was not on GZ when the shot was fired – of this, I have absolutely no doubt.
longtimegeek: Did you notice in the Singleton interview, GZ actually says that he pulled his cell phone out to call 9-1-1. After that, the story is he tried to pull it out to call 9-1-1, but it was in the wrong pocket. He had to change the story because his phone would have been thrown somewhere if he fell as soon as he was punched. The phone was still with him. He thinks quick on the fly – but not quick enough sometimes. A detail about whether he pulled out the phone or not is not a detail one would forget, IMO.
Sandra – I think we are on the same page, too. But, I’m new to this, so I think it’ll take me a while longer to catch up to you and others! Thank you for all of your posts, especially about GZ’s nose.
I was in intrigued by the Keltec 9 video where the videographer got smacked in the face by the shell casing when it ejected.
Also, has anyone offered an explanation, or has GZ offered one, as to why ‘he’ suddenly and coincidentally stopped screaming the instant the shot was fired?
2. Has anyone offered a reasonable explanation for why the blood from the head cuts is flowing the wrong way?
3. Has GZ offered an explanation for why TM’s arms were not arranged the way GZ claimed?
Curious.
And, while I do not have a video of the actual shooting, I believe it took place from a standing position. Just an opinion.
For #1, either I haven’t seen an explanation or it didn’t register with me, because I think TM was the one screaming.
For #2, I’ve seen people speculate about self-inflicted injuries immediately after the shooting or a fake photo. As for myself, I lean towards GZ being on top, causing the blood to flow downwards and somewhat forward.
For #3, I remember someone commenting in a previous post that GZ may have been envisioning his own movie about being a cop spreading TM’s arms, but that it didn’t actually happen in real life. It’s as good a speculation as I’ve seen, so I’m going with it, too.
As far as the ejected shell casing, I’ve wondered if it smacked GZ in the face. If his arms weren’t fully extended, then it may have a higher likelihood of hitting him. Come to think of it, if GZ were the once screaming, then maybe this would cause him to stop screaming.
Me thinks the bullet casing popped Zimmerman right in the snoot and shocked the heck out of him. He thought for a minute he had commit suicide. Ouch!
If you look at the photo of GZ, there is a blood pool under his nostril trapped by the moustache hair. If GZ were under TM with his head on the grass, that blood trail would not be there. The wet grass would have smeared that blood all over the back of his head. There would be no trail. The neighbour did not take a picture of GZs nose that night and I wonder why. Could it be that there was no bleeding from the nose and that the pooling of blood in the stache was blood from the back of his head. No one would want anyone to think that GZ was anywhere but under Trayvon, did they. That night, it was rally round GZ.
GZ stated in one interview that he could not see because of the blood. If someone had that much blood on their face, that would be the picture to snap. One of the EMTs, on the stand, said blood covered 45% of GZs face. In my opinion, that blood was from the back of his head. A witness says GZ hand his head in his hands as he walked toward the T directly after the shooting.I still believe GZ did not act alone and anxiously await the release of the two mystery witnesses statements. There is a reason why those statements have bee held back.
No, GZ wasn’t screaming, but that spent shell casing might have hit him on the bridge of the nose inflicting the little cut that we see in the photos taken at the police station several hours after the shooting.
Notice that the cut is a little off center to the right side of the nose.
Photo 9 (left side of the nose)
Photo 6 (right side of the nose)
TM was right handed, so if he struck the first blow as GZ claims, I would expect a resulting cut to be shaded to the left of the bridge, not the right.
[Note the absence of a black eye]
I realize I’m venturing into speculative territory with this statement, but nevertheless, there it is FWIW.
I don’t believe TM punched him the nose, but if he did, I think it might have been a defensive strike or jab possibly with the cell phone in his hand as GZ attempted to restrain him.
Professor, I just noticed that you embedded the links to the photographs of Zimmerman’s nose. Is it possible for all commenters to use HTML codes in the comment section, such as those for link embeds, bold and italics, or is that only available to you, the blog host?
Thanks in advance for your answer – I’ve been wondering about this for awhile now.
#3 – GZ has yet to have made any explanation for why TMs arms were not arranged the way he claimed. During the reenactment, Serino asks GZ if he flipped him over and GZ says he doesn’t remember but somehow he got on his back.
#2 – The only reasonable explanation that I have seen regarding the blood flow is that he was on top of TM. It seems to flow down (as in someone standing), then to the sides (as someone who was standing and then leaning over. No explanation from blood experts yet, though.
#3 – Some are saying it didn’t stop immediately following the shot. Some say the scream lasted a couple of seconds after the shot without sound expert confirmation. Some say, after he fired the shot, GZ was immediately in a state of shock – contradicting witness accounts of GZ being noticeably calm and in control.
I agree with you in that the evidence appears to tell me he was standing and facing TM as he was laying on the ground, then shot. I say this because TM would have probably had his hands on his chest or face reacting to the gun at his chest. I think GZ rolled him over and this is how Trayvons hands remained under his body. I also think it was GZ who said to TM as he held the gun to TM – You’re gonna die tonight, motherf…. It works for me.
Remember Crane-Station: As GZ is pressed for answers that donèt make sense – he doesn’t lie – he just doesn’t remember. The rest (lies), IMO, is just fluff.
If you take a close look at his nose injury, it looks like a burn mark – sort of a dead skin looking area like you would get from skin wanting to blister. When I first looked at the photo, I thought it was pancake make-up. I had to look again when someone came up with a bullet casing theory and the heat generated from the casing made more sense to me.
In another forum, a credible nurse stated that TM didn’t necessarily expire at the exact moment that he was shot. This has been a gray area for me. Regardless, TM certainly didn’t do all the things GZ claimed he did after he was shot.
I think this same forum also debated what intermediate range means. This blog seems to have settled on intermediate range being 2 to 4 inches. I think stateoftheinternet also talked about a broader range from zero to 17 inches or so? This has also been a gray area for me. So, I think TM could have been shot anywhere between the ground and standing up trying to pull away.
Sandra – Ooh. Your observations about GZ’s nose are very interesting. Thanks!
You know, Sandra E. Graham, while it is total conjecture and speculation on my part, I too have thought from the moment I heard it that it was GZ who said “you’re gonna die tonight” to TM and not the other way around. It just doesn’t ring true that TM would say that. But it makes total sense to me that a guy who got out of his vehicle after saying “these ******* ******* always get away” to say “you’re gonna die tonight.” upon confronting him. I wasn’t there, I can’t prove it, but it is what I thought as soon as I heard it. And I believe that when he went to get his “cell phone,” it was not his phone he was going for at all. I wish I could be more objective, but in the case of GZ, I just cannot.
longtimegeek: while you are looking at GZs nose, take a look under his nose. Can you see any evidence of a nose bleed. Look in those nostrils. I can see blood in the moustache area between the nostrils, I can see evidence of once having blood on the tip of his nose, which is between the nostrils. But, those nostrils are clean. I have had my share of nose bleeds in my life, and they continue to bleed albeit slowly for sometime afterward. IMO, his nose did not bleed. Some say on posts that nose bleeding may not occur with a bang to the nose. But, that nose does run with mucous. I am just talking about George’s face from the photos in evidence. IMO, and I don’t know who took the picture of GZ in the squad car, but take a look at the shape of GZs left ear in the black and white photo then take a look at the same ear in the other photos — what can you say about the shape of those ears. Then compare the thickness of the neck line and the clothing around the neck. No one has said that grey photo is GZ. The police released the photos of GZ and would be originals. So, why is this photo not released in colour. Maybe because there isnèt one…and I donèt know where someone at the scene would have a camera that would take a black and white photo. Where is the colour photo. If that nose is swelling, it sure went down within a few hours, didnèt it. If the EMTs has already rendered first aid and that swelled nose is a bandage of some kind, why would it have been removed before entering the polce station. Help me with some reasonable answers, someone.
The photo that was released in the document dump is a B/W copy machine reproduction of an original color photograph.
That frequently happens when discovery documents are copied in bulk.
The copy we’re looking at is a B/W copy of a B/W copy and virtually worthless for comparison purposes.
The prosecution has the original digital color photograph and the defense likely has a complete set of color photographs, including grisly autopsy photographs that may include a probe inserted into the wound to show the trajectory of the bullet.
Thank you masonblue. I couldn’t figure out why they would release the photocopy when the rest are in colour. The photocopy seems to have skewed the image badly and gave a wrong impression to me – especially the nose!!!
Hi Sandra. The black and white photo that appears to be a negative is the photo taken by one of the investigators or LE while GZ was sitting in the patrol car. If you read back through the discovery, you will find a report that explains this was taken by one of the officers using his cell phone who forgot to originally turn it in and sent it via (I believe) email the next day or so. Why it is in negative or black and white, I cannot answer.
Why does that plastic bag say Walmart? Does 7/11 stores use Walmart bags now? Where is the missing bag from 7/11?
A resident gave two plastic bags to the first cops on the scene to cover the wound and conduct chest compressions in effort to start Trayvon’s heart. They did not have protective gloves.
Yes, an Asian man gave them the bags because that is in the police report. However, what happened to the bag that Trayvon had? Because I know for a fact the bag in that picture is a Walmart bag. The star logo on it and the last letters of Walmart are showing on that bag. What happened to the bag that Trayvon was given at the store?
I have a question, is the direction in which Trayvon’s head was laying is that important? And what would the direction his head was laying mean?
Here a link to a picture that where the tan 7/11 bag is.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeandodge/7557114224/in/photostream
The tan bag marked as Item 2 is the 7/11 bag.
[Item number corrected on edit thanks to Longtimegeek]
IIRC, the white Walmart bag was supplied by W13, the flashlight guy who arrived at the scene of the shooting within a few seconds of the shot.He also supplied Item 4, the first aid kit. The cops used the white bag to plug the wound in TM’s chest so blood wouldn’t spray out as they applied CPR in a futile effort to revive him.
W13 also took the photo of the back of GZ’s head as GZ appears to be making a phone call. He also took the photo of TM’s body that was recently released by mistake.
He took the two photos with his cell phone and appears to have used his flashlight to illuminate the body and the back of GZ’s head.
Good question.
I feel completely stupid now because I had no idea TM was carrying his tea and skittles in a bag. I have no doubt now that Zimmerman profiled TM because he was black. Nothing the least bit suspicious regarding a person walking down the street carrying a shopping bag and talking on a cellphone. Racial profiling a form of racism, there is no doubt about that. I can’t believe how some TM supporters claim that GZ isn’t a racist, but they admit that GZ only followed him due to racial profiling.
I felt stupid, too, right after I had an epiphany two days ago, when various pieces of information that were floating around came together for me.
Actually, only the can was in the tan bag. The bag of skittles was put directly in front pocket of the hoodie. This is per the 7-11 video. Per the same video, TM had is phone headset dangling down from his ears.
The interesting thing is that after his death, we find everything, I mean skittles but also the can and the headset in TM’s hoodie’s waistband. The tan bag is empty and a few feet north from the body (item #2).
One hypothesis is that it was an early phase in the confrontation during which TM lost his items on the ground and then recovered them after having temporarily neutralized GZ.
That hypothesis is also supported by the observation made by many witnesses that there was a gap of time between an initial loud argumentation and the full blown scuffle.
Admittedly, I’m not technical on things such as bullet casing projections, even after watching the video. I’ve questioned from the beginning if Trayvon was shot while on his back and Zim rolled his body over. My basis for that is because:
1. GZ says he did not know whether he actually
shot Trayvon. Yet, a stain of Trayvon’s blood was found on Zim’s jacket cuff.
2. No blood was found on the trigger of Zim’s gun.
3. Based on witnesses’ accounts, the 2 were on the ground when they heard the gunshot.
And yes — Gilbreath’s statement was very powerful!
For #1, with the exception of maybe only one statement, GZ’s own statements, including official ones, indicate that he knew he shot TM in the torso/heart. GZ must have known, because TM died immediately.
For #2, if I remember correctly, no DNA was found on the trigger either.
For #3, it’s possible that one or both started getting up or fully stood up just before the shooting.
I don’t recall GZ ever saying he knew he shot Trayvon in the heart or torso. In fact, he does say that he didn’t know he had shot him. I tell you, he sure had to do alot of thinking while he sat in the squad car and on the way to the station house.
Sandra – I’m certain he said torso at some point. I really hope I’m not remembering that one wrong. Maybe someone else can confirm this. I prefer not to go back and find it, while reading/hearing over and over words like “I had to kill him.”
I added “/heart,” because we know the exact location. Maybe I should have left it off, so it didn’t seem like I was putting a word in GZ’s mouth.
He demonstrated that he extended his arm and he said he “aimed” and pulled the trigger.
So much for his claim of shooting in self-defense during a wrestling match.
longtimegeek – He may have said it at some point and I really don’t want to go back and check it out either because it is so hard to figure out which interview he said what in. Maybe someone remembers. I do remember him saying on the Hannity show – that he had to shoot – he had run out of time mirroring his brothers comment on Pierse Morgan. I say – ran out of time to do what exactly!!!!
It’s in his written statement, “…and fired one shot into his torso.” It’s on page 18
http://cbsmiami.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/zimmermanfullpolicereports.pdf
Oh, thank you, Dawn!
longtimegeek,
You’re very welcome! That link also provides many of the police statements that were heavily redacted in the first disovery dump, as well as copies of Zimmerman’s acknowledgement of Miranda rights, and the retrieval of info from his Blackberry.
My understanding is only 1 witness saw the shot be fired – the retired school teacher – and she indicated that the larger of the two men was the one on top, and when the gun was fired, the larger of the two men stood up and walked towards the direction of her townhome (walking North towards the “T”). Everyone else were ear witnesses. Someone correct me if I am wrong.
And to had to the possible position swap with GZ on top, there is the account of Austin McLendon made to BldR on 03/27 that states that he saw just one person possibly with a red jacket lying on his side and turning his back to him.
We know Wit 6 & 19 who went to their back porches at about the same time and did not notice Austin (wit #14).
We also know that Austin did not notice either wit 6 or 19.
So, Austin came at a different period of the ground fight.
We also no that Wit 6 went out very early in the scuffle and saw TM on to of GZ.
So, Austin most probably witness a latest period of the ground fight and in that period GZ mounted by TM anymore.
When Trayvon left the store his purchases was in a bag. However, the police arrived and the ice tea is in his pocket and the skittles has blood on it, but the ice doesn’t, but the bag he originally had has somehow disappeared. I just don’t believe that he would throw the bag away because normally if a person does not want a bag, they tell the clerk that.
Here’s a link to a picture that shows the tan 7/11 bag. It’s item #2.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeandodge/7557114224/in/photostream
Professor I found another post on Justice Quest made by LLMpapa, the blogger whose website you linked. He discusses Zimmerman’s claim of shooting Trayvon while he was on top and beating him using a diagram and Mark Osterman’s statement to police, it really helped me visualize how impossible GZ’s claim is.
Scroll down to Post # 198 at this link.
http://www.justicequest.net/forums/showthread.php?t=67111&page=7
LeeLee – Thank you for leading me to the link, page 198. Yes, the experts are going to have a field day with GZs claim. Please notice how detailed Ostermans statement is. If GZ recounted his story in such detail to Osterman, all of GZs – I don’t knows – to the investigators tells me he knows the story doesn’t work. Because of Ostermans background in LE, I am surprised by much in his written statement. I am suspicious of Ostermans involvement altogether.
i think everyone is Sandra. I mean you would expect a good and close friend would tell you to get a lawyer and keep your lips zipped. What does MO do? “Just tell them the truth.” and sits back and watches. Then again MO is not know for good decision making.
Great information… Zimmerman the Lair
Regarding the last video, others have also wondered about GZ’s head hitting a sign.
I think GZ gives away both verbal and non-verbal clues throughout his reenactment video, if anyone has the stomach to study it closely enough. I think there are grains of truth throughout. It was dark, rainy and slippery. While he was running or even walking, he could have slipped and hit is head on a sign, tree, bush, etc. He could have done this all by himself without TM present. Considering how calm he was and considering the forensics, it wouldn’t surprise me that none of his injuries were of TM’s making. If TM caused any of his injuries, you would think GZ would be worked up and not calm—as the witness and EMTs found him.
Another observation people have made watching the reenactment video is the way GZ seems to stare at the location where TM’s body ended up. This is when he changed his story from falling immediately to stumbling half way towards that location in the wet grass.
There are other examples, like: GZ, no he means, TM putting his hand on his nose.
GZ makes those slips-of-the-tongue admissions in a number of spots throughout the many interviews, doesn’t he. The one you are talking about in your last sentence is the one I really had to smile about because I caught it right away in that interview. It was an Ah-Hah moment that made me go back to look for more.
The impression that I get is that GZ has lied a lot in his life. If you want to lie all the time you need a method that becomes second nature. He does it the way he has always done it.
In the past that was moderately successful, but this is different. The stakes have never been so high and he has never been subject to such scrutiny.
A possible explanation for those bizarre little out of place remarks is that they are hedges just like his frequent use of qualified statements (“I think…”). It almost seems that if it came to light that he really did bump his head on the sign, he would insist that he mentioned the sign from the start.
That’s the kind of thing that would likely work for an everyday lie. In this case he would not be able to talk his way out of that, but his planning might just not be careful enough for situations like this.
@longtimegeek:
There is a video at this link that shows exactly how poor the visibility would have been that night.
Watch at about 1:02 minutes in:
http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/05/only-on-7-what-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-might-have-seen-that-night-75899.html
nan11 – Thank you! It seems like the small tree with low branches, the one near-ish the sidewalk T, may be the one people have speculated that GZ ran into.
Come to think of it, that small tree is half way between the sidewalk T and TM’s body. GZ initially claimed that he fell immediately near the T. In his reenactment video, he changed his story to stumbling half way between the sidewalk T and TM’s body–in the wet grass. I have wondered why he didn’t extend that story all the way to TM’s body. Now that I’m thinking about it, he may have been too focused on his memories of running face first into that tree.
@longtimegeek: I’m not sure where this comment may land, so I hope it makes some sense.
Either he was too focused on his memories of running into the tree; or, he was trying to justify his story of immediately falling to the ground once Trayvon ‘punched’ his nose. I’m not sure which.
Another thing I noticed from the darkness was that you cannot see the sign, (for the poop station), that is also right there.
You have probably already seen this ‘map’that I’ll link below, but I’ll add it here just for convenience.
The credit for the coloring and the overlay of the witness locations goes to Papapi.
Many blessings and thanks to him for his wonderful work.
http://i48.tinypic.com/esndqf.jpg
This George need to be place in a mental institute word! lairs…
Professor, although George Smiley is no longer here, I was very interested in hearing your answer to a question he raised to you.
George Smiley said:
“”Sonner [an attorney] insisted that Zimmerman is not a racist, pointing out that he and his wife mentored for two black children for free.
When I asked this mother [of the mentees], who trusted [Zimmerman and his wife], and she’s an African-American, if she trusted George Zimmerman, she said she did, and I asked her if there was anything that caused her to believe that she was a racist, and she said, ‘Absolutely not.’ And I said, went further, ‘Did you ever hear him use racial slurs in any time that you’d been around him?’ And she said, ‘no’ as well,” Sonner said.”
Frederick Leatherman says:
“Sonner is a lawyer who was speaking on behalf of his client at the time..”
George Smiley says:
“Let me make sure I understand this. Are you implying that a licensed attorney was telling a bald-faced lie…claiming to have had a detailed conversation with a person that doesn’t really exist?”
Were suggesting this attorney was lying to help George Zimmerman, just as you suggested a witness had done?
If not, then are you now retracting your multiple implications in the past that Zimmerman was lying about having mentored black children?
Listen terrance/george/frank, sorry if I missed out some intermediate names…..
a licensed attorney said he spoke to someone. That is no guarantee that person was telling the truth. What is the chain or evidence? did GZ or someone related to him give him the name/address of that woman? did the attorney have any proof she was the mother of mentees apart from her claim that she was? did he identify her so OTHERS can also check the story?
What everyone’s getting at is, there is NO EVIDENCE that GZ mentored anybody. All you have there is an attorney saying he spoke to someone who claimed to be the mother of a mentee. Now, if we had documents from the program that first introduced GZ to these kids, that would count as hard evidence. In fact it would be nice to have just the name of the program, for starters.
Given how many things GZ HAS provably lied about so far, it is reasonable to keep a big question mark over anything he’s said until there is EVIDENCE for the veracity of it.
So that’s enough about this now. Please cut out the accusations and try to keep to the current topic of discussion, if you want to participate here. Otherwise you are just making noise, not participating.
“a licensed attorney said he spoke to someone. That is no guarantee that person was telling the truth.”
The professor suggested the attorney said what he did because he was speaking on behalf of a client. My question to the professor is whether he believes this attorney was lying on behalf of his client. I’m mostly interested in the professor’s answer, but I’ll address yours.
“What is the chain or evidence? did GZ or someone related to him give him the name/address of that woman? did the attorney have any proof she was the mother of mentees apart from her claim that she was? did he identify her so OTHERS can also check the story?”
Your answer suggests that the attorney was telling the truth, but was speaking to a woman that Zimmerman had convinced to pretend to be the mother of black children that he mentored. Extremely unlikely.
“What everyone’s getting at is, there is NO EVIDENCE that GZ mentored anybody.”
Of course there is. Zimmerman said he mentored children. Zimmerman’s father said he met the lady whose children were mentored. Zimmerman’s mother said that George had talked about mentoring the children. And an attorney representing Zimmerman said he spoke to the woman. You folks can SAY there is “no evidence”, but this does not make it so.
My question for *you* is do you not believe that Zimmerman mentored black children or are you playing devil’s advocate on behalf of the professor.
Given how many things GZ HAS provably lied about so far, it is reasonable to keep a big question mark over anything he’s said until there is EVIDENCE for the veracity of it.
“So that’s enough about this now. Please cut out the accusations and try to keep to the current topic of discussion, if you want to participate here. Otherwise you are just making noise, not participating.”
Accusations? I am debating an aspect of the Zimmerman case that was brought up by the professor. You can try to spin this as my doing something untoward or out of bounds. But, again, this doesn’t make it so.
My questions are very fair and dismissing them as “causing trouble” is just a typical cop-out to being confronted with facts in a debate, and being held accountable for prior statements.
I hope the professor actually answers the question and doesn’t do the same thing.
I answered your question.
I am not accepting a hearsay statement as true.
I want to hear the witness say it.
Frank – I think aussie has answered your question quite adequately and don’t understand why you are not accepting it. Please explain because it is quite right. Why do you have a need to see it from the Professor directly. Please respond because I don’t want to think you are only here to be confrontational. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt with alot of your comments. But, I need you to convince me now that you are here for a more honest purpose.
Sandra E. Graham says:
August 17, 2012 at 3:28 am
“Frank – I think aussie has answered your question quite adequately and don’t understand why you are not accepting it.”
I accept the part of his answer that addressed my question, I just don’t agree with it. It is the part of his answer that implied my questions to the professor were some form of trolling that I think is a cop-out.
“Please explain because it is quite right. Why do you have a need to see it from the Professor directly.”
Because it was the professor that suggested the attorney was not being truthful when he said he spoke to the mother of the mentored children. I want to see if I interpreted that correctly before I respond.
“Please respond because I don’t want to think you are only here to be confrontational. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt with alot of your comments. But, I need you to convince me now that you are here for a more honest purpose.”
I am here to debate, and to hold people intellectually accountable for their statements. I strongly disagree with many of the professor’s positions (and others) on GZ and my intention is to expose the fallacies in his (and others’) arguments.
Frank, it does not matter if he mentored black children or not, that still does not erase all of his lies. It does not erase the fact that he profiled and killed an innocent unarmed child. Nor does it erase the fact that he stalked Trayvon Martin without cause.
I wouldn’t care if he mentored 10,000 black kids, that does not absolve him from pulling the trigger and killing Trayvon. That child was not a THUG! He was a child with a future snuffed out because Zimmerman wanted to play cops. I don’t care how you try to make Zimmerman out to be the victim, he is NOT! In fact, he is a cold-blooded killer!
All of this could have been avoided if he would have stayed in his truck and waited for the police to get there. However, he wanted to play hero. The only thing is that he prejudged Trayvon wrong and the kid was unarmed and only had a bag of skittles, a can of ice tea, and a cell phone. But to Zimmerman he looked like a criminal because he was black, wearing a hoodie, and walking slow. The child was talking to his girlfriend on the telephone, so he was taking his time. Common sense would tell anyone that teenagers talking on the phone and courting probably didn’t want his little boy ease-dropping in on his conversation. There’s no crime in that. However, murder is a crime.
Me, myself, I don’t know how you sleep at night knowing that a child is dead because of a jerk who is an habitual liar that decided that Trayvon deserved to die. And he didn’t even have enough integrity to regret his actions because he is callous. Far as he is concerned it’s just another “suspect” who died in his imaginary line of duty.
I’m going to bed because some of you Zimmerman supporters would make a preacher cuss.
Sorry for error, I meant to say *little brother* instead of *little boy*.
OK, Frank – I guess some are interpreting your approach as confrontational because of the way you phrase things. Your words are abrasive at times. Thank you for answering my question. Appreciated.
Nope, I’m not interpretating it as confrontational!
The way i understand it – Zimmerman thought there were “good blacks” and “bad blacks.”
One of the issues with race and racism is that its not as simple or binary as “he’s a KKK member who hates blacks.”
When I was kid, growing up down south, there were whites who would befriend me, and that didn’t matter as far as their view of race.
I am black.
They still saw me as black.
That didn’t change. I don’t think you, and frankly, many Americans can understand how true racism works. I remember this one lady, after I told her that I gotten into college, she said in a friendly way “black folks can’t do good in college. You should consider basketball.”
She wasn’t evil. She was polite. In fact, she offered me work during the summer before hand.
But she was still a racist not matter how nice she was about it. The problem here is you can’t know if he’s a racist by the fact he helped some black people. That means nothing as to his attitude about “good blacks” and “bad blacks.”
Frank – If statements given under oath are evidence, would GZs fathers testimony at the bond hearing talking about GZs mentoring kids be evidence. If it is, then there you go – there is the evidence. Question is: Why would people believe that someone mentoring African-American kids or helping a homeless man could NOT be racist. Personally, I have discriminatory tendencies (not racism, though) that I am not proud of and would hope that no one would ever detect my feelings given my profession. I try to overcome my secret, but it ain’t gone yet. Every day in every way we should be trying to be better.
I guess aussies questions should be asked in a courtroom if statements made under oath are considered evidence. I think both GZs Mom and Dad testified to his having mentored kids. Doesnèt mean killing another kid is his reward, does it.
I also used the example once that a church group can go to Africa, help dig a well, build a needed community structure, and playfully interact with the children and STILL feel they are better than them, more “blessed”, and harbor feelings that if their “lazy” parents or government or leaders would just make better decisions they would be better off…that is implicit bias…
There is implicit and systemic racism present in stories made to movies that depict a majority AA high school in trouble until a scared white teacher or counselor comes in and “saves” them from being gang members and welfare recipients.
When we hold beliefs that one race or ethnicity cannot take care of themselves without the “help” of a supposed “superior” race, we perpetuate systemic bias, fuel unfair stereotypes, and continue to believe that one race or ethnicity is more intelligent and capable than another.
Any supposed “mentoring” may have many motives..although, honestly, I doubt it holds any semblance of reality to it as it is portrayed by GZ.
“Question is: Why would people believe that someone mentoring African-American kids or helping a homeless man could NOT be racist.”
(A black homeless man to be precise.) Racists just do not do such things. Does it mean that he is free from all prejudices? Not at all. Everyone has them- anyone who is the least bit honest with themselves knows this. It’s human nature.
Again, Frank is laboring under a confused view of racsm
He’s one of the Americans who believes that if its not someone burning a cross with a white hood, then racism isn’t involved.
Frank, you have no idea what you are talking about. Racism comes in many fors, including “good blacks” that we help versus “bad blacks” that we profile as dangerous.
James Holmes mentored disadvantaged children in a camp two summers before his shooting rampage….and yes, he killed children. It means nothing.
Regardless, the language used around “mentoring” the kids is suspicious. Mentoring is not an “act”, it is a relationship and GZ’s own words about “after mentoring the kids on Sunday afternoon” drive suspicion on what the heck he means. No one who mentors kids or teens even talks like that. They would say what they did, not after “mentoring” them.
There is also a telling testimony his mother gives in court that she begged him not to go and he said “Mom, they have no one else” is a savior mentality. I suspect he felt Trayvon a “thuggy gang member” (by appearance only…oh wait…race and age only as his clothes were khaki pants…not gang)…and maybe that is who he is “saving” those kids from. Regardless, I do not see how profiling was not part of this and whether or not he mentored kids relevant.
Should James Holmes not be a suspect or consider a cold and callous murderer because he volunteered at a camp for disadvantaged kids?
@KA,
I always enjoy your posts KA. Preach!
I agree with everything you said EXCEPT for calling Holmes a cold and callous killer. The man is obviously seriously mentally ill and cannot be held responsible for that crime, not legally or morally. Zimmerman OTOH is quite sane AND a cold and callous killer.
I am not sure Cielo, I have not really have validation one way or another, but agree that he is not right. However, there have been indications of a man who was sullen, detached, and felt superior to others on his previous teams based on interviews with previous managers and team members.
Holmes also tried to escape in his car as he left the theater of his own timing. He was only caught as a police officer surprised him and detained him thinking he looked “suspicious” but not knowing he was the shooter yet. He also refused to answer some questions and only later claimed to not “remember” the incident. It is also reported that he asked an officer how many people died.
Significant preparation went into the theater shooting and subsequent apartment set up. It was a well executed plan for sure with months of preparation and planning.
I agree it was odd for someone to change behavior over a span of a few months, but it is also linking into several beliefs he may have held prior to the planning of the shooting.
I am not sure what level of “insane” they will grant him. With his advanced and focused knowledge of the field of Neurology, I suspect he could easily know what to do to be declared incompetent for trial. I suspect they will take that into consideration.
An ethical attorney represents his client and his client’s position; but an attorney is forbidden from personally vouching for the evidence in court. A good attorney knows when to keep his mouth shut.
In the course of representation an attorney should guard against taking actions or making statements which may make him a witness.
When Mr. Sonner repeated Mr. Zimmerman’s story some elements were at variance with the story (okay, stories) told by Mr. Zimmerman in his written statement and reenactment. If the information came from Mr. Zimmerman, they are one more set of inconsistencies which he may be called to defend.
If Mr. Sonner indeed represented Mr. Zimmerman (whether paid or not) he and Mr. Zimmerman will claim “privilege,” but since the privilege will not stand unless without an attorney/client relationship (whether paid or not) we may conclude that the information did, indeed, come from his client.
If Mr. Sonner did not represent Mr. Zimmerman, or believed he represented Mr. Zimmerman solely on the basis of an agreement made with a third party, then we may conclude that Mr. Sonner is a dirty, rotten, filthy stinking liar. Furthermore, whether Mr. Sonner represented Mr. Zimmerman, was telling the truth, or did anything improper, he certainly is not the brightest bulb on the porch.
Amen! As always, thank you.
@Boar,
I first learned about personal vouching during the closing arguments of the O.J. Simpson case. Ha! In addition to PL, your legal input is so much appreciated.
I stand by my previous answer.
Just as Judge Lester rejected what Mark O’Mara said George Zimmerman would say on the ground that George Zimmerman should be the one to say it, subject to cross examination by the prosecutor, I am not going to rely on what Sonner said another witness supposedly said.
It’s hearsay because it’s a statement by someone about what someone else said and it’s offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted in the statement.
You are skating on thin ice.
“It’s hearsay because it’s a statement by someone about what someone else said and it’s offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted in the statement.”
Does this mean that you also won’t accept hearsay as evidence *against* George Zimmerman? For example, apparent inconsistencies between GZ’s account and what Zimmerman’s friends, family, or co-workers said that George Zimmerman said?
You don’t understand the hearsay rule and impeaching a witness by a prior inconsistent statement.
During the prosecution’s case in chief, it may introduce any statement that GZ made to any person, including police officers, about this case by calling the person to whom he made the statement as a witness and asking the witness to tell the jury what he said. Such statements are not hearsay and they are admissible under the Admissions by a Party Opponent rule set forth in Rule 801(d)(2) of the rules of evidence.
Statements to police officers during a custodial interrogation have two foundational requirements: They must have been voluntary and they must have been made after police advised him of his Miranda rights (right to remain silent and right to counsel) and he agreed to waive them. All of the statements GZ made to the police fall into this category.
The defense cannot introduce any of those statements during its case, if they are offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted in the statement because those statements are hearsay and this is so regardless whether GZ is on the stand testifying.
Any witness, including GZ, can be confronted with a prior statement by the witness that is inconsistent with a statement made while testifying.
I would expect the prosecution will confront GZ with every prior statement that he made that is inconsistent with his testimony at trial. That is what I would do, if I were cross examining him.
I’ve said many times that, given GZ’s numerous inconsistent statements and outright contradictions, I do not believe anything he says that is not verified by independent credible evidence.
Is Frank Wilcox George Smiley?
Professor, do you block via ip address….?
Yes.
Even if GZ ‘mentored’ black kids and they loved it, and all of it was videotaped, do you think, I am asking honestly without snark, that this will come up at trial?
I do not think it will. Nor do I think all that W-9 stuff will come up.
BTW, ‘mentoring’ as I know it is usually associated with some sort of a program and is usually in some sort of context.
For example, my mother founded a halfway house/treatment home for addicted women and children in Oregon. The home have many, many regulations in order to keep in business, maintain licensing and be nonprofit compliant. Each resident is assigned to a community mentor. The community mentor has specific duties and tasks, like, for example, going grocery shopping with the resident mothers, to teach the mothers about meal planning, nutrition and meal budgeting. The mentoring takes place during specific time slots on specific days, and progress is documented. There is even mentoring for play, because many of the women literally do not know age-appropriate play for their children. Like I said, the mentoring is all documented.
So, I never did understand exactly what the ‘mentoring’ meant when GZ mentioned it as such. Was it through a legitimate program of sorts. Were these referrals? Was there a math curriculum? Was progress documented anywhere? Were school teachers involved. Was GZ certified to teach or tutor (Sylvan learning ceter, for example, requires this).
Summary: I have no idea what he means by ‘mentoring black kids in math.’
Who would want him mentoring their child in Math when he flunked it in college? I think Z has imagined mentoring little “black” kids. jmo
Well, good point, and there are many other issues with mentoring that I have addressed and other commenters have addressed on this thread. There are liability and legal issues associated with true mentoring programs. Lots of documentation, permission, even prior health screening. Guidelines, progress reports, written plans, specific days and times. All that usually goes along with any sort of true ‘mentoring.’ I do not see any of it. If it was not true mentoring, there is no need to embellish in an attempt to elevate the activity to the level of true mentoring. Why not say, “I helped some kids with math homework?” ‘Mentoring’ is misleading.
At any rate, I do not think this will be a trial issue.
Crane-Station says:
August 17, 2012 at 12:09 pm
“Even if GZ ‘mentored’ black kids and they loved it, and all of it was videotaped, do you think, I am asking honestly without snark, that this will come up at trial?”
I personally think it is completely irrelevant to whether he was justified in shooting Trayvon or not. However, there are many people who believe that Zimmerman is a racist, which has created emotional prejudice against him, making them more likely to conclude he murdered Trayvon. In that sense, it is relevant. I wouldn’t be surprised if it came up at trial if the prosecution attacks his character (which I suspect they will.)
“I do not think it will. Nor do I think all that W-9 stuff will come up.”
Every single thing W-9 said is irrelevant in ever single way and I don’t believe will be at the trial in any form.
Justkiddin* says:
“I think Z has imagined mentoring little “black” kids. jmo”
How confident are you that GZ is lying about mentoring black kids? Would you be willing to stake your credibility on this?
A few other questions, to whom applicable, re: their confidence in other aspects of the case:
2. How confident are you that GZ said “fucking coons”?
3. How confident are you that GZ did not have a broken nose?
4. How confident are you that TM died *instantly* (in the literal sense) and:
a. would have been completely unable to move after the shot?
b. would have been completely unable to vocalize after the shot?
5. How confident are you that GZ did not scream for help?
6. How confident are you that GZ murdered TM?
7. How confident are you that GZ at least committed manslaughter?
I’ll answer the questions myself:
1. I’m 95% sure that GZ mentored black kids.
2. I’m 95% sure that GZ did not say “fucking coons”.
3. I’m 75% sure that GZ had a broken nose.
4a. I’m 95% sure that, if the prosecution makes it an issue, there will be experts that testify it was possible for TM to move for a short time.
4b. I’m 85% sure that, if the prosecution makes it an issue, experts will testify it was possible for TM to have vocalized to some extent for a short time.
5. I’m 95% sure GZ screamed for help.
6. I’m 90% sure that GZ did not murder TM.
7. I’m 70% sure that GZ did not commit manslaughter.
All of these percentages are approximate and based only on the evidence currently known to the public.
Are you sure TM is dead? lol, snark, sorry.
While I disagree with much of what you say, I think we have common agreement on the W-9 and mentoring issues. I doubt if they will be issues at trial.
On 4b in your comment, well, I suppose there might be ‘experts’ that will say anything. Just know that there will be credentialed, convincing counter-experts, and even the experts you mention will be unable to testify to TM’s exact post-mortem risen-from-the-dead words. Those exact words will, again, come down to GZ’s own testimony, and GZ has, to massively understate, some credibility issues.
A student is tutored in math, not mentored.
Exactly.
and considering gz’s grades in entry level junior college algebra, who would even want him to discuss math with their children??
i found that turn of phrase on the hannity interview to be quite odd (but as whonoze stated before ‘george is odd’) — ‘we mentored the children’. even mary poppins who is practically perfect in every way could describe that better. what did they do? help with homework? go to a park or bowling considering the weather? teach life skills like meal preparation? bible study? the options of course are endless, but to state with the all-encompassing ‘we mentored the children’ with no mention of how the children arrived or got home is plain odd.
Yes, I found it vague and strange, especially given the structure and diligence of mentoring programs that I am aware of or have read about.
There is a difference between saying, “I am participating in a 9-month-long youth development program where I mentor kids each week as a voluntary participant” and “I help the neighbor kids with their homework.”
‘Mentoring’ sounds better, I suppose, but it is not necessary to say, unless it is true.
Given that, if there is truly a mentoring program, I can definitely see a scenario where the kids themselves would not come forward, because their identities as juveniles are not any of the business of the passing public.
If the program was church-based, for example, the pastor could vouch, but the kids, or well, if I were a parent of the kids, I would not want the public to know their personal information.
Just my opinion- I do not think the two of them ‘mentored’ that evening. No one has vouched. That could change, I suppose.
I don’t think this will come up at trial.
I agree with everyone about his awkward phrasing there….I know of no one that phrases “mentoring” that way. I think I said this before, but mentoring is a relationship, not an action.
Besides, those with a heart for “youth” would not arbitrarily pick out a teen and deem his a “criminal” or “a%%hole” with no information. Most LIKE youth and want to pout into them, not follow them down and act contrary (ie “I don’t have no problem”) based on zero information. Most people who love our youth give them the benefit of the doubt, some of the time to an extreme level.
GZ did not give Trayvon the slightest notion of “benefit”.
ANY program that places adults with children has to have, by law, ways to verify who is involved, what their responsibilities are, who the children are, how they were chosen, a SIGNED permission form by parent or guardian, and usually even a catchy name. YOU, sir, nor has Zimmerman, nor has his legal representatives, provided ANY of those bits of hard evidence that indeed THIS adult mentored THOSE children WITH the parent/guardian’s permission. I am a school teacher and BELIEVE ME the paperwork involved when volunteers are used is pretty extensive. When it comes to the possibility of child abuse, ALL agencies CYA in multiple layers. Given that fact, the least that could be provided is the name of that agency/program.
Not to mention a background check through any public or private organization.
A permanent restraining order would be a hindrance to that. It is clearly on his record, even today.
I cannot imagine he was approved for an organized program where he had unsupervised visits with the kids would approve him.
Absolutely my thoughts exactly. ‘Mentoring’ is anything but willy-nilly. Programs with mentoring carry liability and have very strict rules, even if the mentors are, for example, graduate students from a university, there must be insurance coverage, public health screenings for communicable disease, documented permission, documented progress- just everything.
Crane -
I know in my state, it is similar to the criteria to the background checks required to foster and/or adopt or be a teacher. Unsupervised access to children as part of a community program is not “willy nilly” business.
Interesting to this topic, his family and friends on their media tour before the arrest had said that GZ did not mentor currently as the program “ended”. In the SH interview, he spoke of it as though it was current, and, in fact, the day of the shooting. His answer to a question (which he awkwardly “threw in”) was that “after he and Shellie ‘mentored’ the kids Sunday afternoon they typically went grocery shopping…” indicating that it happened that day as it was an answer to the question of THAT day.
I think it may be something that is so completely blown out of the water with inaccuracies that it is not anything to what was represented by any Zimmerman friend or family.
Maybe they were asked to babysit a few times…who knows.
Frank is George Smiley!
LOL Granny did you only just now find out?
Ah-Hah!! LOL
I’ve never even met George Smiley. Though, since I happen to admire him, I interpret the comparison as a compliment.
I’m sure you don’t know him, since you made him up.
John Le Carre made George Smiley up.
Speaking of names, do they call you “Reppy?”
I’m not sure I understand the reference to “Reppy”.
Your screen name, “Frank Wilcox,” also belonged to an actor. His nickname was Reppy. You may be most familiar with his ouvre for his sensitive portrayal of John Brewster in the Beverly Hillbillies.
If you are not the same person as the person who used the screen name, “George Simley,” I assure you the comparison is not complimentary.
If you are the same person, don’t congratulate yourself on the screen name.
LOL!
@aussie, I don’t know why everytime I read your comments, I keep hearing a man’s voice talking with an accent.
Granny,
Aussie is a lady. Pls. knock off the fan….
BTW, Frank, the topic is: “Zimmerman Open Thread: What Was the Trajectory of the Shell Casing”
Frank Wilcox,
You have NOT answered any of the questions posed to you by Aussie. Maybe you did not understand those questions, so let me put them again to you more directly:
1. Which black children did GZ mentor (names)?
2. What is/are the name(s) of the mother(s) of the said children?
3. WHEN did GZ mentor black children?
4. WHERE did GZ mentor black children?
5. WHAT is the name of the program within which GZ mentored black children?
6. WHO started the mentoring program; HOW was the mentoring program financed; WHO else was involved in the mentoring – was GZ the one and only mentor involved in that mentoring?
While you ruminate on these questions, I would like to remark that it’s a fallacy to infer/deduce the truthfulness/falsity of a statement: ‘GZ mentored black children’ from the fact: ‘Sonner is “licensed attorney”. I think you commited at least three fallacies: ad verecumdiam; ignoratio elenchi; non sequitur, etc.
It seems to me that GZ was the one being mentored by Joe Oliver and Mark Osterman (as both stated), etc., don’t you think?
In all fairness, SearchingMind, I don’t think “Frank” knows any of those answers. He’s just prepared to accept it happened because GZ, his father, his mother and his former non-representing attorney said so.
But thank you for setting out in detail the kind of information we would consider evidence — not just somebody saying “I did it” but saying where, when, who with etc. In other words something checkable and verifiable.
As for Sonner — working on behalf of GZ at the time, he would have received his information about the woman from GZ or is family, so may have been given, let’s say, mistaken information. Nobody is accusing Sonner of having lied, okay? But his information came from sources known to be less that truthful, and the information is not in the public domain so can’t be checked out.
You see, Frank, if someone says something under oath in court, that is called “giving evidence”. But that is still not proof. If several people say the same thing, it is either more likely to be true, or it’s a conspiracy, or maybe something that it’s easy for a lot of people to be mistaken about. If several people on different “sides” say the same, it is more likely to be true, ie count as proof.
For example, all sides agree that GZ shot TM. That counts as fact. Many things GZ said are lies. That counts as fact, too, because some of them are impossible either on their own or in combination. Which ones are lies and which not has still to be proven. But that is what this series of blogs is working on. If you want to join in on that, you are welcome. If you just want to believe everything GZ or his family says, for reasons of your own, there’s nothing for you to do here.
Yes! What Frank Wilcox has not defined or established is that there is a difference in “mentoring” and “tutoring.” A person with a .5 GPA in required courses like GZ is not qualified to “tutor,” so what type of “mentoring” was he doing? By all things known about GZ, he was a failure all of his adult life and still had not learned that his actions and decisions were wrong.
Re the subject of this thread, sorry guys, it seems the trajectory would depend on so many factors, it could be anywhere in a 5 or 6 ft circle, at least. And we know the body was moved, so nothing can be gleaned from the location of the casing.
aussie writes:
“Re the subject of this thread, sorry guys, it seems the trajectory would depend on so many factors, it could be anywhere in a 5 or 6 ft circle, at least. And we know the body was moved, so nothing can be gleaned from the location of the casing.”
Then was the the purpose of “Zimmerman Open Thread: What Was the Trajectory of the Shell Casing.”
There were a few items moved at the crime scene – key items. I agree, where the casing rested when the photos were taken cannot be relied upon as having been there when the shot was fired. But, it could be used as evidence in the determination od what caused GZs nose wound. Could there be DNA on that casing – maybe.
In respect of “There were a few items moved at the crime scene”, has anything been put forward and/or concluded about how Trayvon’s headset came to be in his pocket? (I must have missed it if it was.)
It can’t be Trayvon wasn’t using it if DD’s testimony is correct, (I am not one who doubts her), as from her evidence she heard the start of the altercation and his headset falling to the ground. Or could that have been his phone?
I asked the question because I am interested in exploring the possibility that the ejected spent casing struck GZ in the nose.
I had also thought early on that it could be the gun “kicking back”. In the videos, it shows two hands used for shooting to absorb the kick back (I may not be using the right term here, I have never shot a gun) but it is obvious, in our speculated event where he held TM’s shirt, or in his own fabled story, he would not have not used both hands.
Early on, I read some reviews of the gun used and one thing I caught is that it had more of a kick back than expected when fired. I have been of the opinion that GZ is not the steadiest hand and that the gun could have caused his nose injury. It looks in no way like a punch as there is no significant bump that formed like a punch would produce and the fact his cut was on the right side of his face.
I also agree that there is no injury or indication of force to the eye next to the cut. The “he punched me” story seems completely illogical considering the physical damage, the blood, the situation, the victims persona and position, nor GZs version of the shooting.
I agree with what you said the other day. To believe a nonviolent teen, talking on the phone, with no weapon, no police record, and clear indication of wanting to escape would turn around and “come out of the dark” and sucker punch GZ would take some awfully far fetched assumptions about black male stereotypes. In that I agree that to believe GZ’s version would require some racist beliefs. The hoodie (as those like FBI/Geraldo claim) is nothing. It was a Nike dark gray hoodie with khaki pants and white shoes..kinda preppy actually and can not be considered in any way “thug wear” by any racially biased “standard”.
Professor, If we are correct and Zimmerman is left handed, and he was using his right hand to control and fire the weapon, not only did he fail to have two hands to control the recoil of the weapon, he had the weakest of his two (right) arms to control that recoil. It is quite possible that the recoil of the weapon is what cause the nose injuries. I would speculate that the location of the spent cartlidge will prove only one thing the direction that the shooter was facing at the time the weapon was fired. The trajectory would be controlled by too many outside factors to establish exactly where they were standing at the time the weapon was fired, ie: even the angle vertically or horizonally of the weapon (via the axis of the barrel) will change the trajectory, yet will not change the path of the projectile. While I tend to think that they were standing when the weapon was fired, I have no way to prove it, and I suspect only the shooter knows, and his story would be suspect at best. I hope that these words make a little sense, if not tell me and I will try to write it in a way that it does…
I understand what you’re saying and you’ve posed another viable explanation for the injury to his nose.
So far, we have 4 potential explanations:
1. TM punched him;
2. The ejected spent casing hit him;
3. The gun recoil kicked him; and
4. The injury occurred sometime before the encounter with TM.
Incidentally, given the nature of the injury and GZ’s stalking beghavior, I think it’s extremely unlikely that a jury would find that the TM-punched-him scenario would justify the use of deadly force in self-defense.
Or could he have bumped into, stumbled, or fallen against something (tree, sign) whether because he slipped (it was raining) before or during altercation, or after if Trayvon pushed, elbowed or shoved him trying to get away? Or could Trayvon have hit him with his phone when trying to get away… GZ claims it was as if Trayvon had something in his hand.
If the casing or gun, would GZ’s dna be present seeing as it drew blood?
Normally the empty case would be ejected to the right and slightly rearward of the ejection port. If the shooter is standing and shooting with a right handed grip with the arm extended the cases would mostly fall within a 2 or 3 foot circle just ahead of and slightly to the right of his right shoulder. It’s possible that a fired case could land on his nose if he was shooting lefthanded but it wouldn’t strike with enough force to break the skin.
As for recoil slamming the gun into GZ’s face I can think of two ways that it might happen:
1.GZ was kneeling directly in front of a standing TM with the gun a few inches in front of his own face and the right wrist bent severely backward. (This provides “ammunition” for the champions of one theory of why GZ was following TM).
2.GZ was actually telling the truth for once. TM was on top of him and GZ somehow got ahold of his gun, managed to bring it up a few inches in front of his eye, again with his wrist severely bent backward, aim and fire. (My apologies for feeding the troll. I’m sure he’ll have fun with this.)
I don’t believe that either scenario is likely.
crazy1946 – I’ve read that people tend to shoot with the hand that corresponds to the dominant eye, so they can aim better. I’ve read that many left-handed people have right-hand dominant eyes. I’m just throwing this thought out there, too. Aren’t many left-handed people ambidextrous? GZ showed us a right-handed motion of pulling his gun out, aiming, and shooting. He did this in his re-enactment video. I think he made a similar motion in his video stress test.
Dave – I’ve also read that right-handed guns tend to eject rightward away from the shooter. If GZ shot left handed, you would think he had a left-handed gun. I lean towards GZ shooting right handed with a right-handed gun, because of his own demonstrations and where he kept his holster.
longtimegeek–I agree that GZ almost certainly shoots righthanded for the reasons that you cite. I don’t know what proportion of southpaw shooters shoot righthanded but it’s probably quite high. Left handed folks are more likely than the rest of us to be ambidexterous because they are forced to deal with implements designed for the righthanded majority. I’m pretty sure that all military forces train their people to shoot righthanded whatever their individual preference. Virtually all handguns are optimized for righthanded use. They can be operated lefthanded but less efficiently. You can buy lefthanded holsters but the only lefthanded handguns that I can think of offhand are single action revolvers, like the old Colt “Peacemaker”. (These guns were originally designed to be used by cavalrymen whose main weapon, the saber, was wielded in the right hand.)
Cross dominance (e.g. righthanded, left eyed) can be a problem for a shooter. It’s one reason that I never became a very good shot.
Longtimegeek,
>>>crazy1946 – I’ve read that people tend to shoot with the hand that corresponds to the dominant eye, so they can aim better.<<<
Actually at the distance that the shot was taken, the aim/eye would be of little assistence. The shot would have been taken at such a close distance that true aim, in the common usage of the word, would not have been possible. The reason I brought up the right versus left hand/arm is the relative strength that one gains in the arm/hand that is more commonly used. If you will take a little test and lift something with the arm/hand you normally use for most activities and then do the same with the not as commonly used apendage you will see what I am talking about. Now if Zimmerman had been a body builder, this would not be as critical, but with his obvious physical condition, it would have been a factor in control of the weapon upon recoil. I suppose that I was correct and did not manage to make my point in a way that was understandable, for that I apolgize, and hope that this is easier to understand?
crazy1946 – Good point. Thank you!
Dang WordPress nests, agh!
Frank Wilcox:
IANAL (I am not a lawyer-ha!) but I doubt if the mentored kids thing will come up at trial. In fact, I doubt if any of the things GZ is ‘not’ will come up at trial. These things have to do with character. If O’Mara opens the door for good character, that will likely open the floodgates for the prosecution to bring in anti-good-character evidence. This would not be a good tactical move for O’Mara, so I do not think it will even be an issue.
Disclaimer: I could be wrong.
Also, even if GZ mentored or tutored children, or altruistically helped homeless black men and little old ladies and volunteered at a soup kitchen, and even if we had videos to prove it all, we have seen, over and over, that these activities can be, and often are, unrelated to a person’s capacity for violence. Take for example John Wayne Gacy:
“Gacy later became known as the “Killer Clown” due to his charitable services at fundraising events, parades and children’s parties where he would dress as “Pogo the Clown”, a character he devised himself.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne_Gacy
Like I said, I doubt if the mentoring will come up at trial.
Florida serial killler Ted Bundy volunteered at the Seattle office of Nelson Rockefeller’s campaign. In 1971 he held a job at Seattle’s Suicide Hotline crisis center. He did many other commendable things . . . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy
Right, I also thought about that. Plus, he was a capable and intelligent student.
I would be surprised if any character issues, good or bad, come up at trial. I also do not believe ‘prior bad acts’ like whatever it was that got GZ the diversion stemming from a prior arrest will come up. Again, I am not a lawyer, but I don’t think character will be an issue.
Crane, I agree with you about the character issue but what does O’Mara have left?
The re-enactment video will sink Zimmerman because it’s set in stone and can’t be changed.
All of Zimmerman’s inconsistancies between the re-enactment video and the NEN call can’t be erased and the prosecution will have a field day speculating as to why Zimmerman stated this or that during the re-enactment especially the fact that in the re-enactment Zimmerman claims that the confrontation between Trayvon and him occurred far from where he claims.
O’Mara could tell Zimmerman to throw himself on the mercy of Angela Corey and request a plea deal but after being trashed in the media I believe she would want Bernie to take this case to trial just to prove that the prosecution did indeed have a solid case for Murder 2.
roderick, I don’t think that Zimmerman would even consider a plea bargain, his ego is too strong. I think he would fire MOM if it was even proposed. I may be wrong, but only time will tell, right?
“O’Mara could tell Zimmerman to throw himself on the mercy of Angela Corey and request a plea deal but after being trashed in the media ”
I’m glad you brought that up because from day one Angela never trashed anyone in the media and has been professional. She complimented O’Mara. Yet, she has been trashed left and right. That woman did not ask to be given this case, she was assigned to it and as a special prosecutor is only doing her job, but she had been labeled unethical, incompetent, and everything in the book. The Zimmerman supporters were calling for her head and job. They wanted her to be impeached and disbarred like the D.A. in the Duke Lacrosse case. The trial hasn’t even took place yet. Nevertheless, she has remained silent, which I admire and respect her for that.
The D.A., investigators, Trayvon, his mother and father, Sharpton, Jackson, Judge Lester, the media, and Crump have been trashed, while Zimmerman has been praised as a hero who has made the world more safer, but safer from what? An innocent unarmed kid walking home minding his own business, with a bag of skittles, can of ice tea, talking on the phone with her girlfriend. What kind of warped thinking is that? Do the same people think that those people killed in Aurora deserved to die too and the world is a safer place?
So, I really can’t say that I would blame her if she did take the case to trial. I know if I was her, I would and in the process I’d give legal nitpicking a new meaning.
Speaking of evidence, during the bail hearing Zimmerman’s father claimed that Zimmerman was not violent, yet he has a record of violence. Zimmerman was told not to have any direct or indirect contact with the Martins, yet he speaks to them again on national television. The D.A. did not file charges against him for violating that order, nor did the Judge bring it up. Zimmerman has been treated fairly, coddled, and given more privileges than anyone charged with murder. And now for encore O’Mara is charging Judge Lester with bias. Smh!
Like my mother used to say all the time, O’Mara has “more nerve than a brass-ass monkey” because the Judge has practically bent over backwards granting Zimmerman more leniency than anyone charged with murder before. He allowed him to leave out the state, have a mini pre-trial at the bond hearing, gave him an extremely low bail and to show his appreciation Zimmerman lied to the court. Do you know how many poor people would not be given a bail they could afford and would have to wait it out in jail or get some high profile lawyer to defend them? Smh! Nevertheless, Zimmerman has been given more special privileges than any poor person would get. Letting him leave out of state on a murder charge is something unheard of in those type of cases and now they want to slap the Judge in the face and trash him.
I guess, if those appellate judges do not vote in his favor they’ll be next on the list. I forgot to add and now they want to trash the professor and his family. And people do not believe that the world is coming to an end. I don’t see how they’re missing the signs because the bible said in the last days people would rather believe a lie than the truth. Smh! Now, I have said my two cents and I’m going back to sit in my corner and hush for now.
I agree that it will not come up. I cannot imagine that O’Mara would do anything so foolish as to bring up any aspect of his client’s character in trial or the hearing as Judge Lester has already been privy to W9′s statements in review, so he knows and the fact the State could bury them in character “issues” with GZ throughout his life in trial.
I suspect there are several witnesses (also the Middle Eastern coworker and bosses) that could testify to his inconsistent, abusive, and harmful behavior in many life areas.
I know for me, the Middle Eastern co workers testimony (validated in 2008 through HR interactions) was more than enough to know this is someone who has a significant superior complex that is proven to drive destructive and abusive behavior when race and ethnicity are involved.
If GZ is on the stand and describing the events of that day, all GZ has to do is say that he’d been mentoring the kids that day, as he does every Sunday, and his attorney can ask him how long has he been doing that, how devoted he is to doing that, how much he loves those children, etc. Assuming the kids are not imaginary and he hasn’t been molesting them.
Well, the reason I do not think this will happen is two-fold. First, the prosecution would have, at-the-ready an expert witness, say, someone who develops and maintains real, honest-to-God monitored mentoring programs that are components of broader youth development programs, to debunk the claim of true ‘mentoring,’ unless, of course GZ did participate in such a program.
Second, it is character evidence. And that is a snowball on a slippery slope for GZ, to put it mildly.
That would be a horrible mistake for the defense to make, because it would place his character in issue and open the door for the prosecution to back a dump truck up to the courthouse door and start unloading.
Beep . . . Beep . . . Beep . . .
Yes, but it may not be a “defense” mistake more than an untethered, rebellious GZ proving his own character…..I can really see it happening in reality under cross examination…
As said before, GZ himself is his own worst enemy.
Search, Joe Oliver was GZ’s AA sponsor. He gave that away during his interview with LOD and Charles Blow back in April when he stated that whenever George was at family gatherings he was the only one who didn’t drink any alcohol, and then he couldn’t (wouldn’t) explain what his relationship with GZ was besides former co-workers.
He also stated that he talked to Zimmerman a week before Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon. So what was going on in Zimmerman’s life that made him reach out to someone he hadn’t spoken to in years?
And yes Joe Oliver is on the prosecution’s witness list.
Thank you.
This needed to be said.
Would an AA sponsor have to give any information about the relationship between the two or what they discussed. Isn’t this why they call it Alcoholics Anonymous – to remain anonymous for many, many reasons.
No privileged communication exists in AA relationships.
There is no legally recognized privilege of confidentiality between a person and his AA sponsor.
Speaking hypothetically, if GZ confessed to his sponsor that he did not kill TM in self-defense, the communication would not be privileged and the sponsor, if called to testify, would have to disclose what GZ said or be held in contempt of court for refusing to answer.
No, but according to the 12 steps they must absolutely be honest. They risk losing their own sobriety by keeping secrets.
Step One: admitted we were powerless over others.
To do this step, the alcoholic must be completely honest. Deception in other aspects of his life effects his disease (alcoholism). That is why the 12 steps are used. AAs don’t just quit drinking & white knuckle it. They rely on a spiritual program to deliver them from their disease.
This is just exactly the thing that AA tries to avoid- getting mixed up in court proceedings of any kind (I know from being a member myself) but unfortunately, I do not believe that AAs have the same privilege as clergy, lawyers, spouses (not blanket privilege) and, varying from state to state but not Federal, journalists.
Like I said, unfortunate. If someone came to media and claimed to be somebody’s sponsor (GZ’s sponsor for example) this is very serious breach of AA’s published traditions that are read at every meeting. The goal of sponsorship is to assist one with living in sobriety and not to reveal identities to the media.
Thank you all for clearing up the AA thing. The only thing I knew about it is only the first names are used and that it provides support to the recovering alcoholic. So, Joe Oliver should not have gone public to vouch for GZ, according to all of your comments re: AA and testimony. He sort of screwed up on the Anonymity aspect, didn’t he.
Yep.
Too bad they didn’t do a drug test on GZ.
Sandra E. Graham says: Sandra, you really need to watch the interview. Oliver never comes out and states explicitly that he is GZ’s AA sponsor, but he sputters and spits and drops enough clues for me to come to that conclusion.
To Roderick2012: I have never seen any evidence regarding the AA connection between GZ or Joe Oliver. My question was brought about because some have alleged it and I wanted to know if someone were a sponsor in AA, would they have to testify that they were a sponsor and or conversations held between the two. Whether or not Joe Oliver is GZs sponsor or the other way around has no bearing on this case, IMO. I have watched the interviews, etc. and havenèt seen it either. Thanks for your comment.
Yeah, at one point when being questioned by Jonathan Capeheart, JO mentioned something about GZ and drinking; something to that effect but it was so misplaced and random even JC gave a quizzical look lol. Also, on the show he did claim having spoken to GZ and whatever was said basically was enough for him. LOD inquired as to what was supposedly said, but he didn’t get into it. Nonetheless, LOD said basically he will be called to testify as to the conversation the two had. Now you say the prosecution is calling him? Lol
Keep in mind that a witness list provided early in a case is going to include everyone the prosecution believes it might potentially call to testify.
That includes many people whom they will not put on the stand.
@Professor,
Thank you.
Professor, I could not help but think of the judge’s words in the Apple/Samsung case “You are smoking crack is you think you are calling all of these witnesses”.
Maybe unprofessional, but quite hysterical.
Reply to:
longtimegeek says:
August 17, 2012 at 2:09 am
While TM may not have instantaneously expired the moment the shot entered his heart, certainly from that point forward he was unconscious and pulseless. His rhythm at the scene was probably asystole (flatline) with at best a few escape beats. Asystole is not a shockable rhythm in an ACLS situation: chest compressions are administered, as they were at the TM scene. CPR efforts quickly proved to be futile. He had a sucking chest wound and both lungs were collapsed, so, as we know, he was unable to draw air in and push air past his vocal cords. Absent chest compressions, air could only escape and not be drawn in. Chest compressions would create an administrator-dependent temporary substitute pulse while someone was pressing the chest, but this would stop when CPR was halted.
The story about TM sitting up, struggling, talking, swearing or doing anything to indicate that he was not fatally wounded, is utter bullshit.
An interesting article on gunshot wounds, sort of OT but interesting:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/78627693/9/Gunshot-Wounds
@Crane,
Ugh, that just makes me so sad and quite a angry:(.
me too
It’s hard for me to read that level of detail also. The only reason I mentioned that he may not have expired instantaneously is the question about the screaming potentially lasting slightly past the gun shot. When I saw the question, my immediate reaction was that it didn’t necessarily rule out TM being the one screaming. What do you think?
By the way, I don’t even know if the question itself is true. I reacted to it, because I believe TM was the one screaming.
I don’t believe the scream continues after the gunshot and after listening to GZ scream “Help me, help me,” ‘ repeatedly, I am convinced that he is not the person uttering that terrified scream. There is only one other person who could have and he is dead.
BTW, everyone please check out the photo of GZ and the little blip of a scab on his nose.
Broken nose???????
What do y’all think caused that injury and WHEN did it happen?
Keep in mind the George Zimmerman principle; namely, never believe anything he says unless it is supported by credible independent evidence.
Might the prosecution know someone who saw him before his encounter with TM who told them that little scab was there?
I don’t know the answer to the question, but I assure y’all that’s a question that I would ask my investigation team to find out and a good place to look would be an ATM Machine, if his bank records indicate that he used one.
This question is beyond my experience and will be one for physician experts in trauma to answer, if forensic analysis of the tape reveals vocalization after the shot.
Meanwhile:
Thanks, Professor. I haven’t seen anything that supports GZ being the one screaming either. Even though I can’t imagine anything coming up, I’m used to people using small things to try to debunk the obvious. So, I reacted to the question.
Crane-Station, LOL. As long as we’re taking a break, earlier comments reminded me of this video. I loved it at the time, and I love re-watching it!
Here’s Part II of the video.
Here’s a combination of speculations that I’ve seen. GZ slipped and hit the back of his head on a sign. Then, he ran face first into tree branches near the T in the sidewalk. Then, the ejected shell casing hit him in his nose. The recoil from the gun may also have hit him in the face. I’d like to throw in the possibility of GZ falling face first into bushes, also. Seriously, I don’t know enough about injuries. There are so many injuries on his face and head. If they’re all fresh, it seems hard to explain.
I don’t think TM punched him in the nose, or elbowed him, or kicked him. I don’t think there’s enough damage.
Maybe that is the purpose of the area bank ATM video tape what was listed in evidence.
Was that ever released and, if so, what did it show?
Also the injuries he has look like a lot of little scratches in his hairline and chin.
With no foreign DNA in TM nail or nail beds, it is strange that he would have those injuries. To me, it looked like scratching damage from branches or bushes.
I also thought maybe he fell on a sprinkler head or utility cover since the one 13yr old boy saw only one man on the ground and thought his leg was broken.
I know from personal experience that blood is hard to get rid of completely. Judging by GZs immaculate, groomed hands, I do not spy under any of his finger nails either. Under the circumstances as GZ describes, and witness reports indicating he hand his head in his hands, and probably wiped the so-called blood away from his eyes, those fingernails would more-than-likely have blood along the cuticle or under the nail – even if he did quickly wash-up in my opinion.
One of the more interesting details of the March 27, Joe Oliver interview on Lawrence O’Donnell’s show was Oliver’s statement that he got in touch with George Zimmerman’s attorney.
That statement very strongly implies that Mr. Zimmerman was actually represented, and the statements given by his attorney may be imputed to Mr. Zimmerman.
I believe that the attorney(s) represented that Travyon Martin returned to George Zimmerman’s truck and that the fight began there. This version of events is consistent with Mr. Zimmerman’s father and brother, and completely inconsistent with Mr. Zimmerman’s written statement to the police and his video taped reenactment.
“Oh what a tangled web we weave / When first we practice to deceive!”
Yet another proofreading error. I meant to say that Oliver told O’Donnell that he (Oliver) got in touch through Zimmerman through Zimmerman’s attorney — whoever he was at the time.
Exactly, professor, scabs don’t show up that quick. Most of the scratches on his face look like they have scabs. That’s what seemed odd to me as well.
Professor and Granny – Which of GZ’s injuries do you think are fresh? Just the ones on his nose and the back of his head? Any others?
Crane-Station, as our on site medical specialist, could you take a look at the photo of Zimmerman that they are using to support the broken nose theory? I have a problem with it, actualy several, the first one is they eyes, no redness seen in photo! The second is that the alleged black eyes do not apear any darker in that photo than that same area does in his photo’s during the bond hearing! How likely is it that not only does his nose not bleed, that the areas that should be bruised around the eyes does not darken, or the eyes them selves show any redness from the alleged injury? I actually am starting to doubt that he actually substained anything even remotly close to a broken nose, and the only injury(s) he suffered to his face are so minor to be of little consequence in a claim of life threating injury for the purpose of self defense. What are your thoughts? Professor could you add your thought to this as well? Thanks….
LOL! I am no medical specialist, just somebody who worked in trauma ICU for a bit and in a trauma floor for a bit. All medical questions must be run by the physician experts. That said, I have little doubt that we will see some medical experts on the stand, and that will be interesting. Never worked in ear, nose and throat setting of any kind or form. Where I came from we were concerned about things like gunshot wounds to the face but not minor broken noses.
That said, I recently pulled a kitchen chair from a shelf that was higher than me, and the leg smacked me in the face. Didn’t smack me in the nose, but there was a cut with immediate redness and substantial swelling. I suspected a possible hairline fracture but never had it checked out because I knew there was no treatment. Anyway, my eyes both swelled and blackened, and weeks later I still had the wonderful yellowed bruises under both eyes.
So, I am no expert, just a lay person!
That said, even if there was radiographic imaging of some sort proving GZ had a fracture, in my mind that is not a license to kill. Anybody who has played sports will tell you that!
My personal take: the first-night photos do not look like a nose fracture to me. There is a small cut and what looks like a small reddened area, but nothing that looks alarming or life-threatening. There does not look to be substantial swelling, and swelling to the face appears pretty quick.Again, this is an issue for a real trauma MD to examine.
I imagine the lack of DNA on Trayvon’s fingernails (I read they both clip the nails for testing as well as swab/scrap the entire nail for testing) after supposedly hold his mouth shut with so much blood will sufficiently prove that the fight did not happen the way described.
Also the lack of smearing/grass/dirt/gravel on the back of the head combined with the fact the blood flow to the front and ear will be enough to assume that he was not getting his head banged in the sidewalk. Even if the injuries supported it, the lack of any smearing or ground debris in the cuts or scalp would make that an improbable story for any reasonable person, whether that be Judge Lester or a jury. It is not explained as of today by GZ’s defense and I am not sure how it could be explained in a reasonable manner keeping consistent with the rest of his narrative.
Maybe that’s why MOM did not mention it during the news conference.
Then again, maybe he forgot.
Professor, Every time I listen to that news (press?) conference, I can’t help but to flash back in time to another news conference one that took place on a ship with a banner that said “mission accomplished”! My response is that both were designed to pull the wool over the publics eyes!
It still seem to this old man, that the wisest course of action on the part of MOM/Zimmerman would be to shut up, be quiet and hope the public forgets! You know, the old out of sight, out of mind trick? I really think that is his only hope, if there is even the slightest touch of hope left for him in this case!
True, but then where would all the money come from?
For Zimmerman, I think this will be a case, where if he does not stfu then no amount of money will buy his freedom! Unfortunatly people have short memories and if this case is allowed to go on the back burner and remain out of sight and out of mind, there is a good chance that despite what we who have looked at his story think, he will walk…. Then again, I don’t think he will shut his mouth and wait it out, and there for I think he will, in due time meet his new BFF Bubba!
KA, you asked about the M&I Bank vid. It is provided on the axiomanesia site and requires downloading a program to see it. I watched all 13 minutes of it. The Zimmerman’s are not on that vid. Who is on that vid at about 6:38 p.m. is Mark Osterman.
Wow…interesting. Am I guessing that there is maybe phone records to and/or from Z during that time? So was this the “Loan” I heard about with him bringing GZ money?
Interesting timing?
Oliver is not helping. Z never told him about his violent past, yet we are to believe Trayvon who never had a violent past all of a sudden becomes violent. Goons and *oons are endearing names? WTF ever. I am nearing 89 years old and I can not think of one time I walked up to a family member or friend and said hey goon or the other oon.
I wish I could add something to the shooting as it relates to this post but I have no idea. I will say if the gun or casing hit him in the nose I hop it hurt like hell. Makes me sad to think Trayvon might not have hit him (he deserved it) but in my heart I believe Trayvon only tried to get away. I think he pulled and tugged if Z and M did roll around in the grass it is because one 207 pound male took the child down.
Especially when goons/*oons is preceding by the f word. (By the way, I hear *oons.) Charles Blow called Joe Oliver out for that one immediately.
I found the Joe Oliver media rounds to be transparent. Just because a black man defends GZ doesn’t make GZ’s actions against a black boy okay.
I, too, have seriously wondered if TM hit GZ at all. If he were respectful towards adults, as his mother described him, and if GZ started threatening him with his gun, I could easily see him holding his hands up. (Come to think of it, maybe this is where GZ’s idea of TM holding his hands up/out came from.) And, when TM realized that GZ was doing more than “detaining” him, TM started screaming for 40+ seconds of that fateful minute.
As I understand it, TM didn’t have any GZ DNA, defensive wounds or offensive wounds. TM had a little scratch on the underside of one finger. So, what could TM possibly have been doing to GZ? He grabbed clothed parts of his arms? He pushed against clothed parts of him?
“I, too, have seriously wondered if TM hit GZ at all.”
You do realize that the prosecution has already conceded that TM hit GZ at some point?
“If he were respectful towards adults, as his mother described him…”
[This portion of your comment deleted as abusive and unsupported sarcasm]
You are pushing your luck, Frank.
WHERE has the prosecution said ANYTHING that TM ever even TOUCHED GZ? There’s no GZ DNA ANYWHERE ON TM! I call you out on that one. PROVE IT.
Cielo Perdomo says:
August 17, 2012 at 3:26 pm
WHERE has the prosecution said ANYTHING that TM ever even TOUCHED GZ? There’s no GZ DNA ANYWHERE ON TM! I call you out on that one. PROVE IT.
I believe he is referring to Prosecutor De la Rionda, towards the end of the 2nd Bond Hearing: “He [Zimmerman] chases him and at some point the victim does hit him.”
IMHO, that scratch on TM’s finger could be a defensive wound, holding the hand up to deflect an oncoming tactical flashlight from hitting you in the face.
That’s right, longtimegeek, Trayvon had none of GZ’s DNA on his hands. No snot (from “smothering”) no blood (from covering that “broken” nose) no saliva (from that “screaming” mouth) and no skin scrapes under fingernails.
I, too, would like to know when the prosecution is supposed to have conceded that point. Frank, find the proof. We’ll wait.
I don’t think Oliver can be doing anything anymore for GZ’s case other than keeping a very low profile after the ridiculous interviews he did several months back with several making him look like the false witness he was!
Geek,
Sorry to say I didn’t know who Joe Oliver was but now I see he is GZ’s “black best friend,” as GZ’s supporters refer to him. This case is really bringing the opportunists out of the slime.
“Here’s a combination of speculations that I’ve seen. GZ slipped and hit the back of his head on a sign. Then, he ran face first into tree branches near the T in the sidewalk. Then, the ejected shell casing hit him in his nose. The recoil from the gun may also have hit him in the face.”
This made me laugh. But it’s not outside the realm of possibility that all those things happened in that order. Unfortunately, it’s not funny.
But this video is, if you can stand it, recently posted at the excellent bcc.list:
Pooh – Thanks. I think I’ll enjoy the video much more after the case progresses further.
Oh, Pooh, that’s hilarious! Thanks for sharing it here – I haven’t yet been to bcclist today.
Pooh: Sound like GZ is a wannabe KEYSTONE cop
I have come to the conclusion that the screams — whose voice and what was being said — are the make-or-break detail of this case. With all the advanced spying and eavesdropping technology that exists these days, I cannot believe that experts will not be able to isolate some words or identify the voices to some degree.
I’m sure Trayvon set up his greeting on his sell phone… I’m sure TM parents, family, friends,or maybe even DeeDee have a voicemail message saved of Trayvon’s too… I believe that they already proved that the voice that was screaming was that of TM…
Surely he left a voice message with a friend that might still exist.
Prof. Fred, is that the kind of evidence that the state would have to release now? Is the state obligated under Florida’s bizarre law to release everything it knows or has immediately. Obviously, some evidence has not yet been released.
Facts — I believe there are some experts who have said the screams could not have been GZ. Others identify two or more voices. I don’t think anyone has been able to say definitively that a voice is Trayvon’s.
But of course, we know that Trayvon was not silent.
Terrible news! No one should ever have to endure burying a child! Poor Frank Taaffe! I did not agree with his tactics, but my heart goes out to him today! So very heartbreaking!
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-17/news/os-two-killed-jeep-crash-volusia-20120817_1_volusia-county-crash-driver-and-passenger-florida-highway-patrol
This is the 2nd child fathered by Taaffe that has died in the past 5 years.
May I remind you that his children were granted a restraining order against their father.
Meredith Taaffe is a Marine stationed in California.
I extend my sympathy to Vincent’s mother and to his half sister, Meredith Taaffe
Professor,
Please do not post this comment.
It contains my email address!
Thank you.
We just returned and he is checking comments. On my screen (different than his) there is no email address posted in the comment, so no worries. He will look carefully through others.
Your email address is not on your comment.
I have seen your email address on other posts, ajamazin, but not this one today. Maybe a wordpress bug when you reply directly from your email?
verafish,
I find it difficult to navigate and often use the email reply option.
My email address will sometimes post.
I do not know why.
For the past several days, I have been deleting your email address from your comments because I assumed that’s what you wanted. It was kind of intermittent.
Not sure if I got them all.
That’s terrible. It just is.
Vincent became a Marine in 2003.
This is the 2nd child fathered by Taaffe that has died in the past 5 years.
May I remind you that his children were granted a restraining order against their father.
Meredith Taaffe is with the USMC stationed in California.
I extend my sympathy to Vincent’s mother and to his half sister, Meredith Taaffe
[Comment deleted because you misrepresented what ajamazin said and your comment about her is unwarranted, extreme and improper]
I echo Diary’s sentiments. A tragedy.
Professor,
Again Frank Wilcox is misrepresenting a comment I made.
I deleted his comment as a misrepresentation of what you said and unwarranted, extreme and improper.
[Comment deleted]
I did not find it cold or inhuman. You stated facts and expressed sympathy for his mother and sister. I think that it would be disrespectful to the children to honor their father when they clearly did not.
To Frank~ IN NO WAY DID ajamazin say anything disparaging about FT. She made an observation that SOMETHING was up for the children to have sought and have been granted a restraining order against their father. That is not cold hearted in the least but an observation. Make of it what you will. At the least it shows some dysfunctional family relationships.
In this comment ajamazin did not in any way trash Taaffe, and she didn’t encourage others to do so. I did not in any way trash him. I don’t know him. I don’t know his family or the issues they have had. I would never wish anyone lose a child, and I don’t think anyone here is pleased that a man lost his life. Do we all respect and or trust Taaffe? No,(I have no opinion at this time. I’d like more evidence before I make a judgement). I’m sure there are many that believe he played a role in Trayvon’s death, so it would be disingenuous of them to now attribute father of the year accolades on him.
Professor,
I suggest that it is inappropriate, at this time, to post negative information about Vincent Taaffe.
What a terrible tragedy for this man to lose a son. Heartbreaking. Very sorry to hear this. Did this happen recently?
He has now lost two sons…one several years ago and one just a day ago.
Just checked the link and yes it is always sad for a parent to lose a child but… 2004 ??? !!! I was under the impression FT lost his son last year but… 2004!? Makes it all the more bizarre GZ’s voicemail to FT in March 2012 should start of with: “First and foremost I would like to say I’m sorry for the loss of your son, and I can’t imagine what you must be going through.”
He has not showed one teeny weeny regret for anything that happened to Trayvon, not even a; “I only wish I stayed home that night”, “I only wish he had stayed in” yet he gives FT his condolences 8 years after the fact! What a… I’m speechless!
That makes GZs voicemail all the more creepier.
Just a few months later, another son died.
On a more personal note, my father was as abusive to his four children as they come. My Mom suffered for many years. The one thing I will say is this, if anything were to happen to me, there is no one who would want him to be at the funeral and no one who knows him who would offer condolences at the loss of any one of us.
Ooops! Although FT’s son that GZ gave his condolences for in a voice mail to FT in March this year had already been dead some time (I think a year or so), it was not as far back as 2004 as I had thought in an earlier post; 2004 was the year of the jeep Vincent Taffe had the fatal accident in. Sorry!
[Comment deleted for being off topic}
Like I’ve said before, this loss has karma written all over it.
Malisha,
Apparently, you did not get the message but I’m trying to avoid unnecessarily trashing Frank Taafee.
The man is what he is, deeply flawed and disagreeable, and there is plenty of unpleasantness to find if someone wants to go to the trouble to look for it.
Problem is that it’s not relevant to Trayvon’s case at this time and I don’t think its appropriate to kick a person when they are down.
Let’s wish him the best of luck in dealing with his personal demons and keep our focus on Trayvon’s case.
I know you did not post this maliciously and I value your contributions here, but I am going to delete your comment.
Horrible news. So, sad. My prayers to the family and loved ones.
Off topic…Professor~~you probably already know this but when you block an IP number, any three numbers in succession in the IP will also be blocked in others who try to comment. For eg. If you block an IP # of 123-456-789… any three numbers such as 234, 345, 567 will also go into spam if they happen to be in another’s IP. It is the same if you filter out a word… eg… Mainstream… any three letters in consecutive order will also go into moderation such as… ain… nst…eam etc. If you are already aware of this, disregard. I always check my spam or pending and make sure I dont have innocent contributors locked up. lol
Good Lord, this is awful news. I am assuming Frank Taaffee lost a son in a car accident today. This would be a second son he has lost? Terrible news.
http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmerman-friend-frank-taaffe-son-dies-car-accident-details
Facts about a possible broken nose.
I commented back in the beginning about the head injuries and the pattern of flow of the blood as evidenced by photos taken after Gz arrived at police headquarters…..was uncuffed….and allowed to go into the bathroom…and had “washed up”.
FIRST….and I’ve held off even writing this, as I am beginning to think some people just do not look at facts……
Go to the report from a physicians assistant Gz saw when he went to his doctor’s office the next day. I just googled and opened the first one …http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/zimmerman_bond_hearing_exhibits/george_zimmerman_medical_report.pdf
First at top you will see a list of “diagnosis’s” with numbers beside them. THIS is what Gz came to the doctor’s office for…..his reasons for being there….plus any other relative things needed to be checked subsequent to his complaints. This is medical coding that is used by insurance providers to determine how to pay the services rendered.
If you note the number 802.0 (probably added by secretary or someone in billing department)….brings up: nasal bones…closed fracture.
PLEASE read down in the report that was written by the physicians assistant about the possibility of a broken nose!!!!! Under
“; • Pl Education {physician): Discussed Ox and Tx plan, symptomatic tx and reassurance. ” ( by me: Patient education by physician by discussing options and treatment plan, symptomatic treatment….treatments of symptoms presented verbally by patient or noted by medical professional).
Hang in here and my point is coming……..
“1. Scalp Lacerations: No sutures needed given well-approximated skin margins. Continue to clean with soap and water
dally. We discussed the red flag symptoms that would warrant Imaging given the type of assault he sustained. Given the
type of trauma, we discussed that it Is imperative he be seen with his Psychologist for evaluation.
2. Broken Nose~ We discussed that it is likely broken, but does not appear to have septal devialion. The swelling and
black e.yes are typical of this injury. I recommended that he be evaluated by ENT but he refused.
3. Sl Joint pain: Likely due to the assault. May use ice/heat, massage: and Lodine as needed, Use cauliously given h/o
IBS.
4. Tonsillar Stones: May use lemon drops to promote salivation and remove the stones as they appear to prevent further
Issues. May be seen by ENT for further eval.
• Specialty Referral: ENT and psychological counseling eval. Patient refused to be seen by ENT at this time and the risks
were discussed. ”
Please read carefully number 2.
Now lets talk about first person we know who saw Gz with medical training and go through the determination of WHO THE HELL DIAGNOSED A BROKEN NOSE? and who is qualified to do it…
EMT….very little schooling, clinical or classroom. NOT allowed or trained to DIAGNOSE. Does clean the wounds you have to be able to see them,….does wipe away blood from your mouth or nose….ensuring you have a good airway…..ect. BUT does not totally clean all blood away.
Paramedic: more extensive training on providing life preserving techniques to ensure life is sustained until patient can be seen by a physician. NOT allowed to DIAGNOSE. Can say it looks like a broken nose… I see a piece of bone broken sticking out….but I am not trained to determine if it’s a nose bone or not.
Ok, first responders as a longtime ER nurse you know I respect, admire, appreciate, and know the depth of your job! So I kept it simple.
Now to the PA……physicians assistant….very highly trained with years of study and prep to become the next thing to a medical doctor. In most states prescribes and writes your prescriptions (except for narcotics). IS trained to DIAGNOSE.
I still like you, Dr. Letterman but you and I both know the golden rule of those in the medical field. CYOB…..cover your own butt.
If it’s not documented you did not do it! According to lawyers, lol.
So….my last point is….in #2 above….even a doctor who saw this patient would put the word LIKELY in their report. Without more information about the condition of the nose (even x’rays are not too good of a tool to use…a cat scan would diagnose it better)…few good doc’s would not use the word likely.
And, to Gz if you and Shellie are reading this…no, you cannot sue this doctor and pa…..they covered their butts well….told you to go see an eye, ear, and nose doc AND your psych doc…you refused.
I’m sorry got carried away…..remind me…who diagnosed Gz with a broken nose?
The people who actually examined George and his nose. Felt his nasal bones, listened for Crepitus (bones rubbing against each other) and visibly saw his nose and face. PA are not as highly trained as some folk want to think they are and do nothing without the Supervision of a real Doc who graduated from Med School.
Correct, on the PA working under the supervision of MD. I wonder if the MD even did a visual of Gz during this doctor’s office visit?
Crepitus in a broken nose??? hmmmm Have a visual of a skeleton face with the bone in a nose…..runs my finger down my nose to see how much is cartilage (soft material)…..
I saw photo’s of his nose and eyes and face after he washed up at police headquarters a few hours after the killing…and video of him the next day….wasn’t it….but, I am not allowed to diagnose.
So, Lynp who are the people who actually examined George and his nose and moved his nose to see if they hear crepitus? I have missed that in the document dumps somewhere? Please give me link?
Thank you for pointing this out. It matters not in the least that the EMT, paramedic, neighbors, dog, or passing public at the scene might have said, “Man, sure looks broken to me”- not a diagnosis. Not anything obvious to the naked eye either, ie, not a blatant fracture where the nose was grossly displaced.
So, given that and the “likely” statement from the PA the next day- not confirmed. This may be another problem at trial, or at the next court event- the self-defense hearing.
Bottom line is, he should have followed up with ENT specialist, as recommended.
Mr. O’Mara may have to walk back the broken nose comments when claiming self defense. If he makes that a centerpiece in his argument the prosecution is undoubtedly going to present all of this and more to the judge and once again George’s credibility will be an issue. Just because George tells people it was broken doesn’t mean it was.
O’Mara has already seemed to back off the head banging. I immediately thought plea again, which the Professor mentioned a while back.
Oh, and as crazy1946 said earlier, GZ is in charge.
Well, right, but snark aside, I believe this will be a forensics case, which is partly why the case interests me.
Crane-Station – Sorry about the snark. I have flip flopped somewhat about MOM and GZ’s relationship.
I didn’t even notice it! No need to apologize. I have been known to write satire (not anything related to this case), because I think it is an effective alternate form of social study, for real. We would not be human without the occasional sarcastic snark!
Crane-Station – Oh, phew! Thanks!
That would be GZ and that kicks in the Zimmerman Principle:
The statement is presumptively false unless it is verified by credible independent evidence.
Therefore: Since he did not confirm it by following up with an ENT, it did not happen.
Crepitus isn’t something you only hear, you can palpate (feel) crepitus. It is not bones rubbing against each other, it is air that escapes into joints and under the subcutaneous tissue (skin) when there is an injury. When you have a knee injury and they palpate the knee, they are palpating for crepitus. Yes, they would palpate for crepitus in the nose when examining for a broken nose.
Nasal fractures are identified and diagnosed visually and palpably and if minor, just treated symptomatically with ice and pain medication and followup within a week. Many heal on their own, but sometimes if there is deformity and/or septal deviation, surgery is indicated where they realign the bones, but this is not usually done immediately post injury because of too much swelling. They wait for the swelling (and crepitus) to resolve before doing that.
They do not always do an x-ray or CT scan if minor because it would not change the treatment, especially if the patient is asymptomatic. They would though if they thought it was severe or suspected other head injuries.
From what I recall, it was recommended that he follow up but he refused. Under the circumstances, even if minor, I don’t understand why he would not follow up. It shows me a couple of things. First that maybe it did not bother him all that much but second, that he (as per usual) is noncompliant with what he is told. Again, even if it didn’t hurt, even if it was not a significant injury, I’m sure he realized he would need evidence and following up would have provided that.
So true about Crepitus. Did the EMT and PA palpate George’s nasal bones? I would quess yes, however, I know for sure who did not and that is the bloggers venturing an opinion on George’s nose who not only never felt his nose, never met him, either.
I may be mistaken but didn’t GZ comment something when chatting to Singleton before an interview and she asked about his injuries and/or treatment, etc. about his insurance being expensive and/or not covering it, or something to that effect? Or may be the fact it was “diagnosed” by EMT as “probably” and by PA as “likely” GZ thought that was enough evidence to prove it.
The issue is that there is not one medical person on the stand that can say definitively the nose was broken. Those that asserted it was a possibility are not credentialed sufficiently.
I don’t think it would matter even if they did lynp. It was “diagnosed” as likely – but not confirmed on followup and obviously was not considered lifethreatening.
I have heard various things, that the extent of his injuries don’t matter don’t matter – that there does not even have to BE injuries, but what really says something to me is that he did not follow through – i.e., took matters into his own hands.
I could see if a guy got in a bar brawl and didn’t bother to go to the doctor or if did, did not follow up – either because it was no big deal or because he doesn’t have money or insurance, but you would think someone who just shot someone and had any knowledge of the “system” would follow through with whatever the doctor said even if he himself did not feel it is significant. I don’t know if it says anything legally, but it tells me something – I can’t quite put it into words, but something is just not right there.
That is my understanding too. The extent of the injuries does not matter. Just that George felt his life was threatened. There was no reason to see an ENT. George’s nose was in alignment and was not laying on his cheek. Broken noses have been diagnosed long before Speciality Docs and X-Ray machines and probably still are in many parts of the world including rural America. For sure, there is ways something not right here. Sadly, a 17 year old lost his life in a crazy situation that never should have happened. May Martin RIP and prayers for his soul. Perhaps, the complete Forensic Picture will help to decide this tragedy.
You said,
That’s not correct. The standard is objective, not subjective. He must “reasonably” fear imminent death or grievous bodily injury. Since the test is objective, the extent of his injuries and the totality of the circumstances that he faced are relevant in determining whether his conduct was reasonable.
Perhaps he didn’t “follow through” because he knew the injuries were not serious and it left them more open to interpretation. Or perhaps it was down to his likely “hero” complex… I mean heroes don’t get stitches, have tetanus injections in their buts, etc… !
The “extent of his injuries” matters quite a bit under 776.041, the “use of force by aggressor” statute. The defendant must show that the actual force used against him created reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm.
If Mr. Martin didn’t use enough force to create reasonable fear, Mr. Zimmerman is guilty.
In this case the prosecution will likely ask the jury to conclude that Mr. Zimmerman’s mild injuries were not consistent with reasonable fear; while the prosecution will attempt to characterize the injuries as indicative of what could be interpreted as deadly force on Mr. Martin’s part.
Clear?
bdl – to clarify even further, wouldn’t the ‘reasonable person’ argument come in to play? that is, the question is not whether gz felt in fear of his life, but that a ‘reasonable person’ in the same situation would?
(sorry, i do not know how to state this in proper legalese, i expect my layman’s terms will suffice.)
gbrbsb says:Perhaps he didn’t “follow through” because he knew the injuries were not serious and it left them more open to interpretation.
No, if GZ had gone to the ER the night of the shooting with the authorities present the doctors would have busted him about his lying about his injuries and then the clock would have begun ticking and he would have been arrested that night.
Not going to the ER that night bought him some so that Daddy Zimmerman could call his BFF State Attorney Norm Wolfinger and intervene the night of the shooting and then Zimmerman had almost 24 hours to come up with the story he told during the re-enactment.
Thanks for the clarity bdl, but my worry about “reasonable fear” is that MOM can surely find experts to affirm that slamming a head against concrete even once is a risk to life and/or serious bodily harm. Many years ago when in my 20s a friend of mine in fun simply tipped back from a ground position onto concrete by fluke hitting what must have been the wrong (or right) spot on his head which put him in a coma for two months and left him with epileptic fits for life! I don’t know, but I would think there must be more examples as my friend’s which could be the “reasonable doubt” GZ & Co. will be looking for?
Roderick2012, that GZ would have been proved a liar as you note in reply to my post is exactly what I was trying to say, except not very successfully from how you interpreted it!
When I said his injuries would be more “open to interpretation” I meant there would be no documented proof of the insignificant nature of his injuries. Furthermore, he would have been checked for other bruises on his body etc. etc. etc. which would have easily blown his story.
Somewhere upthread I said that I thought this case may rely heavily on forensics. I say this because no witness saw the actual shooting, and because it was dark and raining that night, reducing visibility.
If you have seen this video, scroll by but if not, this video kind of illustrates my point. Watch and see if you can tell who the real killer is:
I may be overreaching, but I can’t get past armed vs. unarmed, forensics and timing. I think the rest is secondary or tertiary, although it too is of tremendous help.
I agree. I see these categories of forensics: blood spatter and flow, ballistics, pathology and audiology at the least. There may be more. When all the cell phones went on and off, and even the clubhouse tapes, while they may be de-emphasized by some as just a bunch of meaningless shadows, it may turn out to be significant after lab analysis, I do not know.
Nice… and so true!
Hi professor. Impact from the edge of an ejecting shell casing could produce a small cut on the bridge of the nose, however, a more typical result would be minor skin discoloration, and blistering from hot brass.
Broken nose from an ejecting shell casing? Unlikely.
Speculation:
In the TM top/GZ bottom scenario, if Martin collapsed forward upon being shot (my guess), body weight could force the weapon into the shooters face. Under these conditions, any angular surface on weapon could produce the boo-boo we see on GZ nose, e.g., rear sight Kel-Tec PF9.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/kel-tec_PF-9.htm
Caveat Emptor:
I’m pretty far from being a “gun expert.” Just the ruminations of an old Marine Corps Vet (65 thru 67), current liberal gun owner (9mm Sig), who has never, and who never will support the NRA.
My sympathies to the Taaffe family.
This unfortunate case has been, and will continue to be a magnet for the the bazaar.
Yes a bazaar for the bizarre. I put my foot in mouth thinking we were talking about the demise back in 2004. “Failed to negotiate a turn” generally indicates 2 things- speeding and drinking. In Houston, trees often enter into the picture. I am not known to be sympathetic person so if I offend anyone, I’m sorry but this has ” Karma” written all over it.
In the interest of science I just completed a little experiment. Lying on the floor, eyes and mouth firmly shut, I proceeded to drop 49 spent 9mm Luger cartridge cases (Remington commercial) one at a time, directly onto my face from a height of approximately 24 inches (roughly the height to which GZ’s Kel -Tek would have ejected an empty). The results were underwhelming: no cuts, no scratches, no abrasions or contusions. The only ones that hurt even slightly were the ones that landed mouth down on either my eyelids or forehead. My dog sure looked puzzled.
dave – i do not buy into the theory that either the gun or casing caused any injury to gz, based on my own experience with semi-automatics (and the fact that i do not like them precisely because of shell ejection and prefer a standard revolver).
however, i believe as much as you may have amused your dog, there is a flaw in your experiment. dropping casings onto your face could only impact at the force of gravity and not with that of forced shell ejection (which i cannot state for the kel tech model or any other).
Agreed–my experiment wasn’t all one might hope for but I sure don’t plan on doing any silly-ass experiments using live ammo! Still it’s hard to see how GZ would have had his face directly above the ejection port. I’m with you on revolvers vs. semiautos. In an emergency I want things nice and simple. Besides, I hate having to get down on my hands and knees searching for brass.
i know this comment belongs on the ‘conspiracy’ article, but i cannot help but ask –
in light of the passing of taaffe’s son today (or yesterday) is anyone other than me reminded of the voicemail frank t. played of gz in which gz states very cryptically about being sorry for the loss of his son?
i feel bad for taaffe, just as i do for the martins, as a parent, i can imagine no horror worse than burying one’s own child. i have seen friends devastated by this who never fully recover.
yet still, i am even more haunted by that voicemail.
Hi Fauxmccoy! I thought about that voicemail right away.
fauxmccoy says:
“in light of the passing of taaffe’s son today (or yesterday) is anyone other than me reminded of the voicemail frank t. played of gz in which gz states very cryptically about being sorry for the loss of his son?”
Chilling.
Yes, chilling because GZ was referring to a past event that turned out to be a near-future event as well.
Tragic story. Very sorry for the family.
Crane-Station .
I have more to say, but this is not the time.
My deepest sympathy for his loved ones and many friends.
@ aja “I have more to say, but this is not the time. My deepest sympathy for his loved ones and many friends.”
- – - -
understood
To: ajamazin – Last week, I brought up the voicemail message may have been a type of coded message. GZ is not psychic and to offer condolences to a son who passed years earlier made no sense. After all that has happened, maybe FTs DUI is a result – stress-related drinking.
Yes, chilling because GZ was referring to a past event that turned out to be a near-future event as well.
@Crane
Indeed! I thought about it immediately. Very chilling!
O/T Does anyone know the odds of Judge Kenneth Lester being removed from the case? I think all of Lester’s decisions have been sound based on the situations persented. I really don’t see bias in the bond reversal, or in the higher new bond amount based on the second passport and non-disclosed funds. Personally, I don’t want the judge to be removed. Why does O’Mara want Lester off the case? Is this a desperate move by O’Mara? Does this have any implications to the change of the case away from Stand Your Ground? (First time posting here, sorry if I’m hijacking the original topic. I just can’t find much on the net about the motives for the judge removal move.)
First, I don’t know Florida law; second, while I’ve read and written more than my share of California and Federal writ petitions I’ve never done one for disqualification or recusal; and third, it’s a mistake to handicap these things without a lot of local knowledge.
That said, I don’t give Mr. Zimmerman’s Petition much chance of success.
In order to prevail, Mr. Zimmerman must show that Judge Lester is biased against him personally — as opposed to having formed opinions about and drawing from the evidence when and as its presented. The Court of Appeals will not disqualify Judge Lester solely on the basis of rulings which Mr. Zimmerman doesn’t like.
The defense makes its Petition on two major grounds. The first is that the court found that the prosecution had a strong case during the first bond hearing, and that the court did not consider evidence the defense offered to show that the prosecution’s case was not strong during the second.
The first hearing was what Florida calls an “Arthur hearing” which means the court decides whether or not the prosecution presented sufficient probable cause to bind the defendant over for trial; and what bond is appropriate. If the prosecution’s case is not strong, the court can set only nominal bail; but if it’s strong, bail may be “substantial.
Judge Lester found that the prosecution’s case was “strong,” largely because there was no doubt that Mr. Zimmerman committed the homicide, even admitting to it; and the prosecution made a more than minimal submission to show state of mind. The defense got the police witness who testified to the probable cause evidence to “admit” that he was not aware of evidence showing the defendant caused the confrontation, that was not enough to make probable cause “not strong.”
The defense complains that Judge Lester ignored the evidence educed at the second bond hearing (for reconsideration). Presumably their theory is that had Judge Lester considered the evidence as they contend he should have, he would have found the prosecution’s case weak and required only nominal bond from Mr. Zimmerman.
However, both Judge Lester and the prosecution contend that the trial court was unable to consider that evidence because the hearing was not an Arthur hearing, but a second bond hearing. While I don’t know Florida law on this, I’m disposed to believe the court and prosecution.
The second set of grounds concerns a number of remarks made by Judge Lester which the defense argues show (a) that Judge Lester has determined that Mr. Zimmerman statements are unreliable and is therefore unable to consider them fairly; and (b) that Judge Lester is threatening Mr. Zimmerman with further punishment for those actions which led to denial of bond.
While this argument is somewhat stronger, it does not — in my opinion — come anywhere near the standard required for disqualification.
I would not be surprised if the Court of Appeals denies the petition without comment, if it required the full panoply of Response (by the prosecution), Reply, and Oral Arguments, or anything in between.
Writs are very procedure and jurisdiction specific. So let me add that I also wouldn’t be surprised if I got some of the procedure wrong. For instance, I know that Judge Lester cannot be required to respond, although he can if he wants; but I don’t know for sure if the Court of Appeals can require a Response from the prosecution.
Now you know what a memo of law (absent citations and case analysis) to an appellate court looks like.
Finally, based on my sense of the law (admittedly not very good) and the facts, if I were a research attorney for the Court of Appeals, I would recommend they “deny on jacket” ASAP.
That was very informative, thank you!
Nice analysis. Well done, Boar.
I concur with my learned brother.
Boar do you think that Judge Lester and the prosecution will respond to the writ.
that was meant as a question, sorry I hit the post button before I could change it from a period to question mark.
I know how you feel. Some may think some of my comments are statements when, in reality, they are questions. But, my question mark and apostrophe keys does not work. Changes context sometimes.
Granny,
Good question. I bet Judge Lester writes a lengthy, witty, and stinging Response every night when his head hits the pillow; but I can’t tell you whether or not he’ll actually file one.
My thought is that Judge Lester will do whatever is usually done.
Thanks Boar, I pray that what is usually done means that he’ll respond to the charge with a lengthy response.
Boar – I hope whomever responds, and in particular, the prosecution, responds to the many misrepresentations and misstatement of facts contained in the Petition. In California, MOM and West would be facing sanctions.
O’Mara said: “I think the evidence in this case suggests that my client was reacting to having his nose broken and reacted to that by screaming out for help.”
GZ feared for his life because he thought his nose was broken?
How many people in the state of Florida die every year from a broken nose?
In the US of A?
In the world?
In a century?
LOL and only in the US of A does a broken nose warrant the death penalty.
So in the interview with the female investigator, GZ says
“He punched me and I fell back and he was hitting my head in the pavement or a sign or I do not know what it was..everytime I tried to get up he banged me back down and kept banging my head and the neighbor came out and said I am calling 911, I told him to help me because this guy is killing me then I felt my shirt and jacket raise up and I thought he was going for my firearm, so I reached for it and shot him” [some paraphrased]
This would indicate that GZ stayed at the “T” as the story does not support the debris field and body location, but secondly, he mentions the SIGN as a possible cause of his injuries…
Thirdly though, how could he talk to the neighbor as he has said multiple times happened all the while screaming at a consistent, terrified pitch on the 911 tape? No muffles, no break to talk…it does not make sense.
Fourthly, how can he “not breath” but also get his head knocked in the pavement or ground? DId Trayvon simultaneously bang his head in the ground and have both hands over his mouth?
There is no way it can be GZ yelling or he would have to compromise the validity of another part of his story (ie mouth covering, neighbor conversation. etc)
How does anyone believe this story? From the highest level, it is impossible for most components to be true simultaneously. If someone accepts one part, they would have to do that by disregarding another part for it to be even possible.
Would like to pay tribute to the magnificent video montage assembled by WhoNoze: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHyIpO43NRg&feature=plcp
It spurs these observations & questions:
1) Note in the opening clip inside the patrol car, GZ is recounting his “story” to the detectives and it’s interesting that, as he starts spinning his yarn, at the end of each sentence, his voice rises perceptibly into questioning mode. It’s like he’s started out to tell a fable, and is eliciting approval after each sentence, looking for affirmation from the listener (as in “Are they buying this line? I need some positive feedback to keep going in this direction.”) The detectives are basically stoic and noncommittal, likely from years of hearing stuff like this. They just nudge him to keep talking.
2) GZ, as WhoNoze points out, is giving vastly more detail than he could ever observe in the time taken during the drive-by that GZ claimed. Likely the cops noticed the embroidery.
3) But when GZ describes the incident of Taaffe’s doors and windows being open, he describes this forcefully. He’s reciting historical fact. No whiny question mark in his voice for that part of the segment. This part I believe.
4) GZ often used this whiny inflection when speaking with Sean on 311.
5) Is Osterman on this little trip with the Sanford PD detectives? I noted some filmed feet and expect it was he, and that he was staying out of camera range. Strange to see SPD permitting a mentor ride-along – but that’s the ex-cop buddy system at work.
6) I noted GZ starting to say that TM was looking around for “the others” when he first noticed GZ’s car. Then he quickly corrects himself, keeps talking, never explains his verbal blip. (We should put together a list of these.) That blip was pointed out by an earlier poster
7) During our online conspiracy discussion, one observant student posited that pages were flipping during the 311 call and questioned whether GZ was reading notes. I continue to think that GZ could have been tipped off to TM’s presence, likely by Osterman as he dropped off the cash loan to GZ that evening. GZ may have taken notes at the house, then took his lined yellow pad with him (and flipped the pages during the call). WHY ELSE would GZ describe TM’s attire as wearing levis “or sweatpants” as GZ is looking RIGHT AT Trayvon – wearing tan chinos??? Was GZ relying on notes he took from somebody else’s earlier observation – somebody else who simply drove by TM without stopping to write down the details and relied on his memory to tell GZ?
8) Why would GZ describe TM as wearing a “grey” hoodie. It was a dark night, the hoodie had some exposure to the rain (saturating its color) and at the 7-11 you can see how dark it was (inside a lighted store). Why didn’t GZ report TM in a “black hoodie”?
9) The 7-11 security video footage shows TM’s fully zipped-up hoodie. Proof that TM never unzipped the hoodie (exposing a lighter under-sweatshirt) is that the bullet holes matched, garment-to-garment as to the design placement, proving also that GZ had a grasp of TM’s clothing and was retaining him – as he shot him.
10) Conjecture has been raised on this site that one of the unidentified sounds on 311 after GZ exits car was the unzipping of GZ’s jacket – of course, the same sound would likely come from zipping up. If a nylon zipper, likely no sound. With GZ’s girth, could he zip up the jacket before getting into the truck, and drive comfortably? Would he have unzipped his jacket and removed it when he exited the truck? Under rainy conditions?
11) Note when GZ re-enacts the nose-punch and shooting for the detectives. Another Freudian slip when GZ has to correct himself after saying “I placed my hand over – uh, he placed his hand over my mouth.”
12) Note where George reaches WAY in back of his waistline to show how he drew the Kel-Tek from his holster, which would be over the kidney area. If GZ were on the ground at that time he shot Treyvon, that holster would sandwiched between GZ’s back and the earth. At 207 lbs (GZ’s weight that night at SPD), and in that video, you can see that George had quite a muffin-top at that time. I think a layer of blubber would have enveloped the slim Kel-Tek, filling in any void around GZ’s body next to the earth. So how could GZ extract his gun when all that was body mass was lying on it, PLUS Trayvon’s weight, too?
13) And tell me how TM could have “seen” that GZ had a gun/holster – INside GZ’s waistband, sandwiched betwen the earth and GZ’s back?
14) The color red at night appears black, and the grassy dog walk area was dark. If GZ’s jacket was unzipped as (I expect it was) and he was on top of Trayvon at the time of the shot, the contrast of the lighter-colored shirt could have appeared to be the “white T-shirt” to the witness. (I’m aware that stressed-out eyewitnesses are often fallible.) It certainly was not TM’s hoodie.
15) GZ had some pooled blood at the base of his neck in back. If that did not rub onto GZ’s red jacket, at the back neckline/collar area – then GZ shot TM when GZ was NOT wearing the red jacket. His light shirt would be visible.
16) Has any student been out to GZ’s townhouse development? Landscape maintenance is always included in the HOA fees. No homeowner or tenant mows those lawns. Some gardener on a riding mower does it. IMPORTANT QUESTION (at least to me): Are there sprinkler heads in that grass? Would they really rely on Florida’s frequent rains? Florida gets searing summer droughts, too. All those lawns and plants and greenery have to be on a timed irrigation system. Because those mowers are heavy and tough, the industrial-quality sprinkler heads normally installed in such lawns are even tougher. You wouldn’t want to bang your nose or the back of your head, falling on a sprinkler head. (I was permanently injured just stepping on a sprinkler head.) If you were wrestling on the ground, you wouldn’t want to have your head scraped across a sprinkler head. You scalp would get cut, abraded (although in a fine line) and it would bleed.
Would appreciate comments from the class on any of these points. Thanks!
Again, great kudos to WhoNoze!
I’ve always wondered if there were sprinkler heads too – because it sure doesn’t look like someone took his head and slammed it against concrete to me. As for your conspiracy theory, there is one phone call where at the beginning he starts to say “my wife” then changes it to “I was going to…” or something – cannot remember the exact words. I don’t know if he was starting to say “my wife and I” as if she was with him or if it was a genuine slip of the tongue – but his tongue slipps a lot. LOL
“12) Note where George reaches WAY in back of his waistline to show how he drew the Kel-Tek from his holster, which would be over the kidney area. If GZ were on the ground at that time he shot Treyvon, that holster would sandwiched between GZ’s back and the earth. At 207 lbs (GZ’s weight that night at SPD), and in that video, you can see that George had quite a muffin-top at that time. I think a layer of blubber would have enveloped the slim Kel-Tek, filling in any void around GZ’s body next to the earth. So how could GZ extract his gun when all that was body mass was lying on it, PLUS Trayvon’s weight, too?”
Maybe the only question worth the prosecution’s time in your discussion.
Along with the various things you’ve described here are the difficulty that Zimmerman would have getting an angle on the gun butt so as to draw it from the holster while he was on his back; and the difficulty (impossibility) he would have getting his hand under Martin’s leg to draw the pistol, then bring the pistol back under Martin’s leg to use it, while Martin was trying to control Zimmerman’s wrist.
Also, there’s the completely imfrikkinpossible idea of Martin seeing Zimmerman’s gun while supposedly astride Zimmerman so that the pistol would have been behind Martin’s back.
Patricia: Your assessments make good sense to me – couldn’t agree more. I only have one comment about Frank Taaffe and the location of his home. That cut-through, right next to Taaffeès home, is a frequently used short-cut. It is not unusual to see people passing through there. Now, we have all seen Mr. Taaffe – a former NW Captain. GZ not long before the tragedy reported FTs house was left with windows and doors open. Does anyone think FT, from what we know of him, that he would leave the house unlocked with windows wide open!. IMO, unlikely
@Sandra, I don’t believe he would leave his house unlocked or windows wide open either, especially since they claim a lot of burglaries were happening in their neighborhood. In all honesty, I believe that is just another one of Z’s web of lies.
@ sandra and granny
i actually have a theory about taaffe’s open door/windows. i suspect there were many times he deliberately left them open because of his location to the unauthorized short cut next to his house. i would not put it past gz or ft to deliberately ‘bait’ what they perceived as ‘bad guys’ while the ‘patroled’ from a distance in order to play cops’n'robbers.
i have heard too many accounts of that house be unsecured to believe otherwise at this point.
fauxmccoy – I have the exact same theory regarding Frank Taaffes house being left open.
GrannyStandingforTruth: GZ reported the incident to the NEN. Lie or not, it was reported. The police came and secured the home. Whether Frank Taaffe left the home in that condition for any reason, it just doesn’t make sense, in view of the facts indicated.
Experts: Trayvon Martin’s heart kept pumping after shooting
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-17/news/os-trayvon-martin-autopsy-20120817_1_trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-blood-loss
Comments23 318George Zimmerman may have shot Trayvon Martin in the heart, but that didn’t kill him instantly.
The 17-year-old survived for several minutes, according to two experts who reviewed Trayvon’s autopsy for the Orlando Sentinel.
“You’re talking about minutes, at least, for him to survive,” said Dr. William Anderson, a forensic specialist and former deputy medical examiner for Orange and Osceola counties. “I think he would have been conscious … for a little time, anyway.”
Ah but could he talk? With both lungs collapsed the answer would have to be “no” and all that after-shot BS would not have been possible.
it is odd that they do not address either the second lung collapse (how long that would take due to massive internal bleeding) or the brain edema (which is also significant of lack of oxygen or perhaps other injury) in the analysis of the autopsy. overall, this article strikes me as very limited in scope and not very helpful.
Well, even if the two experts are right, basically TM was suffocating and bleeding to death, and not delivering movie lines like “You got me,” or otherwise sitting up, struggling or swearing.
“Survival” is sort of relative, in this sense.
Perhaps what the experts were getting at is that TM suffered. And that is tragic.
That he lived for several moments in pain is the type of comment the civil case attorneys will want to pounce upon! Zimmerman is toast and won’t even be allowed to enjoy the spoils from his evil deeds! Poor baby, not!
When GZ asks the despatcher if he has his phone number, the despatcher gives GZs number. First GZ says – You got it. Then, after the despatcher gives the number, GZ says Yuc, you got it.
Doesn’t he say Trayvon said You got me or you got it. Interesting. GZs thought processes must have gone into overdrive after the shooting.
Something is wrong. In the article it said they started CPR – Once CPR is started, it should only be stopped if another trained person takes over CPR for you, if more advanced medical personnel take over ,if you are exhausted and unable to continue
if the scene becomes unsafe, or if the victim’s heart starts beating on its own.
So if CPR had been initiated in the field, he should have been transported by EMS with CPR en route where the hospital would then assess.
I agree that survival of a gunshot wound to the ventricle is very rare, but I worked at a teaching hospital that was the major trauma center for 5 states, and I have seen it happen. But there are too many variables to say that.
And I am not saying that Trayvon’s life could have been saved if CPR had continued, because likely he would have bled out before he could get to the hospital.
But something does not ring right with that article, but I read through it very quickly and maybe missed something. I’m blocked out from that publication unless I pay so I have to read through a shade. LOL.
Rachael (my name is Rachel, imagine that) I also thought this was odd. Like you say and granted, CPR is a very long shot, but I was a bit surprised that they discontinued their effort without even intubating or anything, in the field, so quickly.
“But something does not ring right with that article”
@Rachael, that thought crossed my mind too.
Sadly, Martin Right Ventricle was destroyed and both lungs collapsed instantly from the bullet, CPR was not going to save him. He was already dead. I imagine had no pulse or resperations. We know the rules of Heart Attack CPR which rarely saves many anyway but they do not apply in this tragedy.
I agree that CPR would not have saved him and I certainly did not mean to imply that if I did, I’m just saying, once CPR is initiated in the field, it is to be continued until the person gets to the hospital – unless the rules have changed.
Hi Rachel. I am not a medical person, but a friend of mine is an RN. She read the article and explained that in her training, “alive” in the medical field means that the heart is still beating, but that does not mean that the patient is conscious or has the ability to talk, walk, etc., In fact, because his blood pressure dropped so rapidly, he probably lost consciousness immediately. So, I agree with Crane-Station.
that jives with what i got from my 75 year old, still practicing RN mother. her thoughts were that he may have had 10-15 seconds of consciousness, able to ‘vocalize’ not much more the a bloody gurgle and that any movement was parasympathetic nerve response to the death process. sounds unbearably harsh, but the voice of reality.
CherokeeNative, I don’t think you understand what I am saying. I am saying that regardless of that, if there was a heartbeat and CPR was initiated in the field, CPR cannot be discontinued once started.
Please google “when can CPR be stopped”
What I am saying is that once someone starts CPR,in the field, they can only stop CPR if they revive the patient, once advanced life support comes to take over, if they are too exhausted to continue. CPR is to be continued en route and only the doctor in the emergency room can give the order to stop.
I have never in my 20 years as a nurse and 20 years in ancillary support heard of CPR being started in the field and not being continued in transport until they reach the hospital where the doctor can pronouce them.
Thank you for your comment regarding CPR. I wanted to say something about the EMT pronouncing. I have never heard of that before. Didnèt the EMT or paramedic say Trayvon flatlined, etc. But, I have never heard of anyone but a doctor pronouncing.
Sandra E. Graham, I haven’t either. If he had flatlined, CPR would not have been initiated. However, once it has, it is my understanding it cannot be stopped until an MD says so or if the patient is revived or the rescuers are too exhasted (and it is exhausting, especially if help is hours away).
But maybe this is something new. I don’t know. I’m old, things change. LOL.
And now I’m not only old, but I’m old and tired. I’m going to bed.
Later.
Southern Girl …
What a harrowing, tragic report.
In response, I just e-mailed the reporter:
Rene, I wish you had asked the two doctors just how much speaking Trayvon could do after the hollow-point bullet blew out his heart and collapsed his lungs.
Obviously, he could not have formed words because his lungs could not push out the sounds.
His “last words,” in fact, were a prolonged 38-second scream of terror.
He knew what was coming.
Then the shot.
Then silence.
The whole country is suffering from Trayvon Martin’s death and George Zimmerman’s self-serving lies.
Please do a follow-up interview with the doctors on this issue.
Your reporting is excellent on this harrowing story. But on this one significant issue, it’s incomplete and needs this simple justice for the dead teen: honesty as to his last words.
Not your fault – but Zimmerman should not be allowed to blaspheme Trayvon Martin’s memory.
(deleting the next paragraph that included personal data)
I tell you this only to let you know that I recognize starkly beautiful writing when I see it.
Your report is such writing. It just needs this one final note.
A requiem, you might say.
With great thanks,
(signature)
“More than 3 million facial injuries occur in the United States each year. Most are secondary to assaults and motor vehicle accidents. Information about the causes of facial fractures depends on the country and location of the trauma center; therefore, reported statistics vary widely.”
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/434875-overview
I cannot find statistics on broken nose by itself, because I do not think this injury alone without other injuries is reported by the medical community to any agency that keeps track of numbers (CDC for example)
For example’s sake, a photo of a person with a broken nose is pictured at this site:
http://zafrab.blog.com/2010/12/22/4/
with the following clinical exam notes:
Nasal bridge deviated on right side with swelling on perinasal area.
No active bleeding
Nasal crepitus present
Tenderness + +
Nasal patency reduced on right side
Anterior Rhinoscopy shows fluctuant swelling on septum on right side along with blood stained crusts while left side is clear
Posterior rhinoscopy is unremarkable.
Prof et al~~this is just my own theory of what may have occured the night of Feb 26th. I do not see Trayvon on top of George when the gun was discharged. I see Trayvon on his knees begging for his life and screaming for help. When the gun was fired, Trayvon fell backwards, same direction as the bullet. The bullet casing or gun back fire ( sry not sure of the right word here) hit Z in his nose causing a slight fracture. A fracture can be described as a broken nose. Amount of blood from a fractured nose can be none at all to quite a bit depending on if the vessels in the nose are ruptured.
I do not think Trayvon punched Z in the nose…reason being, there were no bruises found on T’s knuckles. I also think Z turned T’s body over to a face down position tucking T’s hands underneath him. Z would have a lot of explaining to do if T were to be found on his back with a bullet hole in his chest.
Z said he thought T was still alive and he got on T’s back extending his arms out to the sides. This was not true. Z need an excuse to explain to any witnesses why he was on T’s back after having turning the body over. JMO. MSF
There is no slight fracture. The nasal bones are broke or they are not.
I stand corrected. Minor hairline fracture.
http://www.uofmmedicalcenter.org/healthlibrary/Article/116106EN
*after having just turned the body over.
Blame my typos on falling off the fence. lol
If Martin was in the area of the club house, would he have been visable from the driveway of Zimmermans town house? About how far from Zimmermans town house is the club house?
Crazy, google on map 1950 Retreat View Circle, that is Z’s address and then whatever the club address is. It might be that 1111 Retreat View Circle address. I am not sure.
@GrannyStandingforTruth:
Here are a couple of map links that may be useful, as well.
In the first one, you just have to place your cursor over the blue dots.
http://www.miamiherald.com/trayvonmartin/
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/04/02/us/the-events-leading-to-the-shooting-of-trayvon-martin.html
Thanks nan11! But I think that Z might have been Frank’s leaving house since he claimed to have first saw Trayvon in front of Frank’s house.
nan, I know my reply to did not come out right, but I’m tired. Sorry about that. What I was trying to say is that I think that Z might have been leaving Frank’s house.
Looks like Dr Phil will be airing a Zimmerman TV Special….not really sure what to think about that…..
Dr. Phil@DrPhil
What’s your opinion on #GeorgeZimmerman? http://bitly.com/GeorgeZimmermanDP
After that joke of an interview he did with George and Sindy Anthony, also giving them $ 600,000 in blood money for more lies, I lost all respect for Dr Phil ! Dont watch him anymore and will not be watching his new special
LeeLee: I believe GZ may be getting paid for this interview and drumming up publicity for his charity fund. At the same time, he seems to be trying out new stories with every retelling. He isnèt just sitting at home, for sure. He is probably reading everything written on Blogs , watching everything on You Tube, etc. To the legal beagles out there. Can he declare that he has had an epiphany and has decided to come clean. Everyone is theorizing. He may gleaning alot to come up with the best story yet. He did claim that his doctor said he may have PTSD because of the incident causing problems with his recollection – oh yeah, and then there is the ADHD with memory problems.
sandra, i am sure you know this, but must say it out loud. there is no way on god’s green earth that gz could have been diagnosed with PTSD within 72 hours of the shooting (as he claimed to det, serino). the symptoms take months to develop. it is yet another of his self serving statements and as a sufferer myself, it offends me. of course it goes without saying that most of his words and deeds offend me.
fauzmccoy: I am sorry to hear about your PTSD. I can only imagine how difficult it must be to have had a traumatic event change your life forevermore. Having said that, I can not understand why Osterman would offer information about GZ being abused by his mother. Could this be the reason why he was working with a Mental Health professional. Maybe they can claim the PTSD was from a childhood event. I am brainstorming in my own Bi-Polar mind and coming up with changes to the defence strategy. Thanks for sharing your personal knowledge with us.
thank you sandra. i have had a few near death situations in my life, the two most recent were bouts with cancer, the last one being a surgical procedure to remove a nerve cell tumor from my chest cavity, it did a fair amount of damage. i am clear from the cancer, but the surgery left me disabled and soon after, seeking help for PTSD. while in treatment, i discussed a situation that had happened to me 30 years ago when i was 17 and a family member who was experiencing a psychotic episode held me at gunpoint all night. my psych told me that i had likely been suffering PTSD since that time which i do not doubt in retrospect.
it is that incident though that draws me to this case. i know the fear of being 17 and looking down the barrel of a loaded gun. i was blessed to see daylight while trayvon was not. like trayvon, my local law enforcement was next to worthless. my interest in seeking justice on his behalf is very personal.
as for your own bi-polarism, i can empathize as my recently departed but dearly beloved father suffered from it severely. i wish you well in your treatment of choice.
in terms of gz – it may be possible that the PTSD was an ongoing condition, but would require documentation and as far as i understand the law, would only come into play during sentencing as a mitigating factor. i could be wrong, if so, one of our kindly attorneys will correct.
Thank you for explaining where my question would fit in. I was having enough trouble trying to get direct evidence and circumstantial evidence straight as it relates to this case. I have learned so much every day as I read the comments from the professionals on this Post as well as those with personal stories and those with great analytical minds.As far as my Bi-Polar Disorder goes – It was diagnozed 5 years ago and I have had nothing but the best medical professionals working with me and tremendous support from family and friends. Stress, I think, is the number 1 cause of most medical issues. Stay Strong!
When ever I listen to the videos of GZ telling his versions of the events that occurred that evening, especially the one where his head/body is repeatedly slammed onto the sidewalk and compare it to the 911 tape, I am reminded of playing on the bed with my grandson several years ago. He loved it when I would bounce the bed while he was laying on his back. I mention this because his laughter, which could be quite loud would have a “jerking/bouncing” sound to it. Unlike the cries for help on the 911 tape which are uninterrupted by movement.
Also, GZ claims that he saw 4 people looking at their struggle? How is this possible if he was laying on his back, pinned to the ground, with Trayvon slamming his head on the pavement, along with repeated blows, and mouth/nose covering? Wouldn’t it be the person on top who would have the ability to look around at or for “bystanders”?
And one final oh wow moment. GZ was mentoring a child in math? Seriously? It really does make one wonder how this came about. Every mentoring program I have ever been associated with, when looking for mentor for a child struggling academically, would look for a more suitable match. Based upon GZ’s accidentally released grades, I would find it much more likely that a child was mentoring GZ. not only that, but if he was indeed a mentor, what a piece of work he is, using the fact that the child who was assigned to him happened to be black, as a way of bolstering his claim of racial tolerance. Shame on George and his supporters. If you ask me, this pat on the back is totally disingenuous and in no way indicates a lack of racial bias or animosity.
This past summer, I met a young man my grandson and his mom had been talking about for an entire school year. The one thing they never made mention of was the fact that his buddy was African American. That revelation gave me a lot of hope for the future.
Orlando Sentinel.. has article stating gunshot did not kill TM instantly
this according to 2 experts
Does that article state that he was fully conscious, able to resist being subdued and capable of holding a conversation?
where’s the ‘thumbs up’ button when you need it?
Make that 2 thumbs up and a only in Zimmerman’s world is any of that possible!
Ok, I read the article, it states he was conscious for around 30 seconds. It also states (paraphrasing) he would have been in pain and that with each beat of his damaged heart, he was experiencing massive hemorrhaging and loss of blood to his vital organs.
I am not thinking he was in any condition to chat with GZ and put up a fight that necessitated GZ to climb on his back to keep him from jumping up and running away. Rather, I would think he looked straight into that SOB’s eyes with a complete look of terror and maybe even pleading with the realization that he was actually no longer able to fight for his life. George Zimmerman’s response to such a horrific sight was to pin him down, instruct a witness not to call 911, and make no effort what so ever to render aid. Oh yea, we should all feel such sympathy for George Zimmerman. If you ask me, this revelation is additional proof that he acted with a depraved mind that evening. He literally held that young man down as he took his last breath. Most people who had been “forced” to kill a teenage would have held him in their arms.
Vicky:
…this revelation is additional proof that he acted with a depraved mind that evening. He literally held that young man down as he took his last breath. Most people who had been “forced” to kill a teenage would have held him in their arms.
I agree. I can’t find any other words right now. Yes.
bmh, yes, isn’t that sad and heartbreaking how GZ straddled and sat on top of Trayvon with his 207 pounds of pressure while Trayvon bled internally, blood filling up in his lungs, dying and in a lot of pain. I guess, he wanted to squeeze what little life was left in Trayvon out before the police arrived. Smh!
Justice for Trayvon!
Yes, it is so very sad what GZ did to Trayvon! It makes me physically ill. GZ is a murderer and i hope he is found guilty! I agree, Justice for Trayvon!
also at Global Grind Frank Taafee’s 30 year old son was killed along with passenger in car accident Friday morning, In Florida
As much as i dislike Mr Taafee, sorry to hear about his son! No parent should ever lose a child!
It is so sad to say now Mr. Taafee knows what the Martin family is feeling. It is ashame the remarks Taafee made about Trayvon and his family… Hopefully he will turn his life around and be truthful about the senseless murder of a young man walking home with Skittles and a Ice Tea. Tragic loss of young lives on both sides…..R.I.P..
[I deleted this video due to inappropriate content]
I was thinking pretty much the exact same thing. Very wierd that he has now lost his son! Wow, Yes indeed, tragic loss for both families
So very sad
I do think it is sad and I do feel bad for him, and like you, I would hope it would turn his life around, but I’m afraid that now he will be filled with more bitterness than ever because I am sure he is hurting bad, and that is all he will know to do with it. I hope I am wrong, I really hope I am wrong.
I have no love in my heart for Frank Taaffee, but I do feel awful this happened to him and his family and I hope they can somehow find peace. I don’t know how. The loss of 2 children would be more than I could bear.
This whole case is so sad in every aspect.
Love you thoughts about the situation… “the whole case is so sad in every aspect.” May both sides find peace…
Frank Taaffe lost his other son in 2004, I believe. I am under the impression that his history of (relatively minor) legal problems may stem from alcohol abuse in the wake of that earlier loss…
whonoze,
I believe Will died in 2008.
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/orlandosentinel/obituary.aspx?n=william-christopher-taaffe-will&pid=117819577#fbLoggedOut
How could a young life disintegrate so quickly?
I have a new post up:
Zimmerman: Did the Defense Change its Strategy?
Professor~~having lost a grown young daughter a couple years ago, the video of Frank Taaffee just posted has really upset me and I find posting such a video at this time is very inappropriate. I am hoping you will see fit to take it down. Thank you. MSF
Done.
First of all, very very sorry to hear of your loss. The video is being removed. At first glance and without watching, it was mistaken for a news story. Agree with you, and it will be taken down shortly.
He is viewing an RSS feed-type thing, so sometimes it is hard to actually locate stuff.
Again, very sorry to hear about your daughter. My sister’s son was murdered (shot to death in the heart by an unknown assailant) just 1 month shy of his 17th birthday, and the loss really divided all of our lives into two parts forever- sincere condolences to you and your family.
@Crane
I’m so sorry to hear of your loss. My condolences.
Thank you, Crane and Professor. Bless you both and I will throw in a couple of hugs.
Any speculations about the trajectory of the shell casing are irrelevant because the evidence reveals that the shell casing wasn’t ejected normally because the gun failed to cycle properly.
The responding officer who took GZ into custody also took his gun into evidence. At that time the officer would have rendered the gun safe by:
Removing the magazine.
Manually cycling the slide to extract either,
An unfired cartridge
A spent cartridge case.
The police reports detail finding the spent casing on the ground with a metal detector.
The evidence submitted to the FDLE included: the pistol, a 7 round capacity magazine with only 6 rounds.
The empty shell casing.
Conspiculously absent is an unfired cartridge that had been in the chamber of the pistol.
The conclusion is that the chamber of the pistol was empty when the officer took GZ into custody.
The most probable explanation is that gun failed to feed properly and the spent shell casing was caught in the ejection port between barrel and the slide in a classic “stove pipe” jam. Failure to feed properly can be caused by a poor grip on the gun or something pressing on or gripping the slide to retard it’s motion.
We know that GZ had his gun holstered when the officer approached him. The gun could not have fit in it’s holster with a stove pipe jam. GZ must have cleared the jam before reholsterring his weapon simply by manually cycling the slide. A failure to fully retract the slide would result in a failure to chamber a new round.
Stove pipe jams, extraction failures and failing to chamber anew round are common failures especially when shooters are under stress.
Thank you for the outstanding posts
Frank Wilcox, you’re asking what people believe and then trying to suggest that those who believe one way or another should “stake their credibility” upon those beliefs. There’s no credibility issue involved in how much somebody’s belief comports with ultimately proven factual realities unless the person deliberately stakes their beliefs on some professional credentials. Since a person blogging about the Zimmerman case would never serve on a jury and since most of us do not even live in Seminole County, Florida, I fail to see how our beliefs about individual facts in the case would implicate our credibility, but I am intrigued by the list of allegations you set forth for question. Here’s my list. And some commentary on it.
A few other questions, to whom applicable, re: their confidence in other aspects of the case:
2. How confident are you that GZ said “fucking coons”?
ANSWER: About 80%. I listened to it about 20, 30 times and that did sound like the most likely word there. Of course, since Angela Corey AND George Zimmerman both claim that the words were, “F*cking Punks,” I’m willing to “go with” that translation.
3. How confident are you that GZ did not have a broken nose?
I’m about 90% sure he did NOT have a broken nose. I think if he HAD a broken nose, or even a nose hurt badly enough to be thought of as probably broken, he would have gone ahead and gotten an X-ray.
4. How confident are you that TM died *instantly* (in the literal sense)
a. would have been completely unable to move after the shot?
b. would have been completely unable to vocalize after the shot?
Actually, this question has been answered, but I hadn’t formed any opinion on it before I saw the answer publicized. I didn’t think it was relevant but to me, if TM lived several minutes after being shot, that would add “depraved indifference” and “endangerment” to GZ’s charges, in my estimation. He didn’t call in 911 for help even after shooting TM.
5. How confident are you that GZ did not scream for help?
On this one, I’m pretty close to 99% sure. First of all, if a guy is being beaten half to death and he screams HELP HELP HELP and nobody helps, then he’s pretty much freaked, unconsolable, shaken to his very soul, totally non-kopasetik, a few minutes later when there are folks standing around him and cleaning off the blood. He doesn’t make this expository statement: “I was screaming help help but nobody helped.” That’s NOT the right dialog for that scene, all wrong in fact. Maybe, “I — so — you got here — if only you got here a minute sooner — I — he was gonna kill me — thank you — Oh God, thank God you got here — I…” SEE? like that.
Also, some voice analysts have already given the thing a look and they say, not George, not very likely. Besides, I listened to that 911 call with the gunshot about 20, 30 times and I did not hear HELP HELP, I heard something like “Go way” or “no way” or something with “oh” sounds in it, not “eh” sounds in it.
6. How confident are you that GZ murdered TM?
Again, about 99%. What I figure is that GZ got himself all worked up to “bring in” his prey, had figured it was a criminal he was entitled to punish, and then Trayvon did not act as he had planned, and his little controller gene expressed itself and he tried to establish dominance, failed, and killed. That was both with malice AND with a depraved mine, so to me, that’s murder.
7. How confident are you that GZ at least committed manslaughter? 99% PLUS, for the above reasons. I completely disbelieve the “He attacked me” story. Does not match the physical evidence OR the common sense approach.
There you go. Do my beliefs affect my credibility? I’m not saying these things because I’m a cop or a criminologist or a psychiatrist or a judge. I’m saying these things because I have a good, firm, logical foundation for my reasonable beliefs.
On August 19 I said I was 80% sure the whispered curse made by George Zimmerman on his NEN call was “F*cking coons” but now, I have listened to about four YouTube videos specifically put up by sound analysis folks and I am now 90% sure he actually said “F*cking Punks”! YAY! It proves:
1 – I can change my mind whenever it should be changed; and
2 – the prosecutor actually did a bang-up job on the affidavit of probable cause!
Something occurs to me, so I’d like to pose a question.
George Zimmerman writes with his left hand and uses his gun (and apparently his cell phone) with his right hand. Or at least, there is some support for this theory. What’s that about?
Another thing that occurred to me: GZ got someone to take a picture of his head with a cell phone a few minutes after he killed TM. That cell phone picture burst upon ABC shortly after the video of him walking calmly into the station house, looking clean and unhurt, was all over the Youtubosphere. But then it was replaced with the “front and back” headshots (looking very much like they were done by a professional PR guy for an audition) on a beige-greyish background. The next time he walked calmly into the station house, he had three big clumsy looking bandaids on him, one on the alleged “closed fracture” of his nose and two on the back of his head where of course none was needed. Isn’t that odd?
The report of his family doctor’s physician assistant that supposes there may be a closed fracture of his nose claims bruising and black eyes, but no photographs? Not only no X-rays, no photographs from cell phones or other cameras? How come? George was at Mark Osterman’s house during that period of time; no pictures of the black eyes? WHY?
(Because they were, at best, probably, make up applied by licensed cosmetologist wifey? And she didn’t want to submit them to scrutiny because some doctor might come in and say they weren’t real and so forth?)
OK, enough questions for now. Have a nice day, all.
I thought the same thing about make-up. If anyone were going to claim self-defence, you can bet your bottom dollar there would be photos. When you do motor vehicle accident investigations – you take so many pictures from evry different angle in order that those who are viewing them have the most clear-cut, complete picture of the scene. I guess video is used now. But, make up – yes. Worth a try if you are a make-up artist – not so good if you are not.
Shellie Zimmerman, make-up artist. Doctor’s office day after shooting (Black Eyes, viewed by PA but not photographed).
First picture of George’s bloody head, “given” to ABC News commented on by Dershowitz when he said Angela Corey should be charged with a crime — check it out. Youtube explanation shows how it was photoshopped. A guy with a face tattoo and a bloody head has EXACTLY the blood rivulets shown on Zim’s head! It was an astonishing thing to see!
These things should be followed up, in my opinion. ANYONE collaborating with Zimmerman on obstructing justice should be prosecuted, in my opinion.
Corey’s angry rant to Dershowitz’s law school folks doesn’t seem so far-fetched now…SHE was blamed for not adding, to her charging documents, the idea that poor George’s head was hurt so he was obviously defending himself. Know any cases where the prosecutor has to say in the charging documents that there will be a defense?
Dershowitz should be ashamed and the creators of the photoshopped flick should be prosecuted.
Here’s the YouTube of the way the picture was probably photoshopped:
Wow!
Nice catch.
My kid the physicist/photographer said, when he first saw that photograph, “Oh snap, that’s every KIND of wrong!”
@ Professor Leatherman re: removing my comment on Taaffe, that’s fine. But I do want to respond to your idea that I was trashing Taaffe, because I want to argue my own position by saying I was not. Rather, I was defending someone (cannot remember who) who was criticized by another commenter for not showing that father enough sympathy. My comment was about how, in my opinion, we earn sympathy in our society. Or, more accurately, how we SHOULD earn sympathy. (By the way, the poster who originally was accused of failing to show sympathy for Taaffe Senior had not gone into any of her personal feelings about him, but had offered her condolences and sympathy to Vincent Taaffe’s mother and sister, if my memory serves me.)
So let me turn my attention to Zimmerman, because the same point I was making with Taaffe can be made, perhaps even more easily, with Zimmerman. Zimmerman originally put up his web-page called “The Real George Zimmerman” because he felt he was being trashed in the media, and he announced that the events of 2/26/2012 had changed HIS life. He mentioned that he lost his job, had to go into hiding, his family was all upset, etc. Obviously this is not comparable to having one’s son die, but it certainly sounds bad enough for a guy to be allowed to do a “poor me” on-line.
But I turned my attention to those overly vocal pro-Zimmerman commenters on many public on-line forums who were, at that very time, insisting that Trayvon Martin had deserved what he got because (a) he wore thug clothing; and/or (b) he didn’t explain himself and his presence in the neighborhood to George Zimmerman respectfully; and/or (c) he “attacked” George Zimmerman. These people were not expressing any sympathy for a kid who got shot through the heart and killed, “without due process.”
The reason those virulent pro-Zims felt justified in giving their sympathy to him and not to his victim was that they presumed a sort of god-given righteousness on his part and an unquestionable authority to do whatever he was doing that evening. Even more important, they, like George Zimmerman, presumed a LACK of legitimacy about Trayvon Martin and whatever HE was doing that evening.
By the same token, the law in Florida presumes a sort of god-given righteousness on its part and an unquestionable authority to charge Zimmerman with second-degree murder and to follow its written procedures to now put him on trial for his freedom. It simultaneously presumes a LACK of legitimacy about George Zimmerman and what HE did on 2/26/2012, but it will have to demonstrate that beyond a reasonable doubt.
Here’s what I’m saying: As a free person, I use this equation to measure where and how I give what is unquestionably mine: MY SYMPATHY. I assume that the commenter who apportioned her own sympathy to only certain, and not other, surviving kin of Vincent Taaffe (RIP) was doing the same. I would like to add gratuitously that I was not gloating and I doubt that the words I actually used would have indicated that I was.
I hope people read Vincent Taaffe’s own words; he put them up on-line and I hope they are still available.
Malisha,
Taaffe inserted himself into the discussion when he chose to act as George’s spokesperson and defender.
I am well aware of Meredith’s and Vincent’s online statements concerning Taaffe.
Furthermore, Will was a skater and a student with a bright future who I met at SPOT prior to his senseless death.
Please note I rarely post at this site.
I do gain valuable information and insight from some – you, whonoze, boar_de_laze, Crane Station, and the professor.
However, I can not abide the whining, emotionalism, and group think.
Well, I appreciate your contributions and hope you continue to post here.
Malisha,
Let me add that stating “I cried all night” is a statement of victimization that invites more abuse.
It is cheap and tawdry.
I refuse to be a victim; rather I am a survivor with the strength and power to make a difference and bring about change.
Mrs. Fulton is a pillar of courage, wisdom, and integrity who asks for no sympathy.
Rather Mrs. Fulton is empowered by the righteousness of
a cause she champions for all of us, not only some of us.
Despite her grief, she displays concern for the problems and suffering of others and advocates without bitterness.
I have the greatest respect for Trayvon’s mother and the example she sets for all of us.
When I post, I try [but often fail] to follow her lead and say nothing that would reflect negatively of the short life and unnecessary death of Trayvon.
What is racism if it is not the existence of superiority, entitlement, and privilege granted without merit?
Racism is a merely a concept that is more easily identifiable
due to color. It saves the time and trouble of sewing on a yellow star or visibly ‘marking’ the targeted group.
Racism is only one form of elitism and classism providing a standard by which discrimination based on unreasonable prejudice is possible.
It is more about the ability to divide and label people and pit one group against another and until we stand together united, putting aside our petty differences, I see little hope for our society.
It is only if we are able to make some universal sense from a senseless death, that we can strike at the root cause – institutionalized discrimination that is deeply embedded in the fiber of our country.
Ajamazin, thanks for reminding me about the “I cried” business. If I remember correctly, one of Zimmerman’s spokespersons told some TV broadcast source that Zimmerman had cried for three days after the “incident.”
My thoughts went:
1. THREE DAYS? What made him stop crying on the fourth day? (At that time the video had not yet been released showing him speaking calmly and self-righteously to the voice-stress guy and the female cop sitting with him as the voice-stress guy arrived, by the way; no tears, no “OH WHY DID I DO IT?” — etc. ad nauseam)
2. WAS HE CRYING FOR HIMSELF? It seems to me that his initial web-page was so self-pitying that he just plain HAD to be a sociopath. They out-victim everybody.
The thing about racism being so easy, and so much a part of our culture, always brings me to one of my stories. I have a best friend (among maybe a dozen best friends) who is an actor, and she is African American, and I am white, and I am not an actor. We do call each other sisters because of the closeness of our relationship over 20 years. We feel responsible for each other’s children, too. At one point she called me, back during the OJ Simpson trial, and she complained against a boyfriend she was with at the time, whom I also know. He is white. She said she had accused him of being racist because he thought OJ was guilty and he insisted that he was not racist. In the background I heard him protest: “OJ IS GUILTY AND I AM NOT A RACIST.” So I asked her what the boyfriend had offered for reasons for his belief in OJ’s guilt and she didn’t know his reasons yet (he is not a lawyer). She then asked me, “Do YOU believe OJ is guilty, because YOU’RE NOT a racist, so let me hear what YOU think.”
I said, “Well, first of all, I AM a racist, and second of all, I think OJ is guilty but I do not think he is guilty because I am a racist.” She couldn’t concentrate on what I was saying about OJ at that point and went off on the tangent of proving — to ME — that I was not a racist.
So I said, “I believe everyone born and raised in this country is racist to one degree or another, because we are in a racist culture, but what we have to do about that both for ourselves and to mend that crack in our culture, is to recognize HOW we are racist and what we can do to address that.”
To this day she does not completely agree with me on those points I was making that day. We talk about it often enough; we have come closer to resolving little parts of it, but it will probably be a lifelong activity, that is, if it is to be worth a damn.
BTW, she came to believe that OJ was guilty, too. She and I both believe that he was acquitted because the jury was teaching a lesson to the LAPD because of the Rodney King case. It was a weird form of inappropriate jury nullification in my opinion, and had more to do with misogyny than racism, in the final analysis.
Malisha,
”….Zimmerman had cried for three days after the “incident.”
George can cry me a river but his boat won’t float.
“They out-victim everybody. ”
Some choose to become “professional” victims. Eternal “victimhood” provides a handy excuse for failing in life and often pays rather well.
Racism conveniently gives us someone or something to blame for our mistakes and short comings.
Man is still evolving, but I hold little hope. We are living on borrowed time:
The historian Arnold Toynbee observed: “Out of 21 notable civilizations, 19 perished not by conquest from without but by moral decay from within.”
Toynbee made this statement over 50 years ago.
Transmitting values is the work of civilization.
But what values do we as a civilization embrace?
I maintain that our values have de-evolved and are based on materialism, comfort, convenience, and satisfaction of self centered interests.
Honesty, justice, courage, and compassion have become hollow words.
A civilization can be judged by the character of its people. I fear history will judge us and find that we were lacking.
________________________________
You said,
“It is only if we are able to make some universal sense from a senseless death, that we can strike at the root cause – institutionalized discrimination that is deeply embedded in the fiber of our country.”
I agree absolutely.
Everyone is entitled to be treated with dignity.
ajamazim – Your words – my thoughts, too. People have to realize – we CAN do better than this. If not us, then who. Apathy does not affect change. Trayvons mother was not and will not sit down and say – that is just the way the system works. Her words activated a nation. She wants change, she wants justice, and she wants peace. It can happen. Isn’t that what we want too!! Great post ajamazim Thank you!
Sandra E. Graham,
The essential worth of a nation is expressed in the content of the character of its people.
Martin Luther King, Jr. knew this and expressed it eloquently
in his famous “I Have a Dream” speech,”
Martin Luther King, Jr. said he dreamed of the day when all Americans “will be judged not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.”
The content of good character is virtue.
Virtues, such as honesty, justice, courage, sacrifice, self discipline, and compassion, are dispositions to behave in a morally good way.
They are objectively good human qualities. They are affirmed by societies and religions around the world. Because they are intrinsically good, they have a claim on our conscience.
Virtues transcend time and culture (although their cultural expression may vary); justice and kindness, for example, will always and everywhere be virtues, regardless of how many people exhibit them.
Thank you ajamazin
I think it time to hear those words again – August 28th, 1963
Malisha,
You do not have to defend yourself because I like and respect you.
I understood what you said and do not disagree with anything you said.
I was just trying to keep the discussion on track.
So far as we presently know, Frank Taafee was not involved in killing Trayvon Martin. Perhaps that will change as we discover more evidence. I am certainly open to that possibility.
The man’s son recently died in an accident and, whether his son cared about him or not or whether he cared about his son, I don’t believe is any of our business.
I also don’t think we should be kicking a man when he is down.
Please don’t take this personally.
Oh I didn’t take it personally, Professor. I appreciate and understand everything you said; I just wanted to re-address the “personal sympathy” issue because I actually DO care about personal sympathy and feel like I have spent it when I spend it.
Today I was going back over the initial news stories in early March and something really jumped out at me, again: Apparently some of the residents of The Retreat had phoned the police department and expressed concerns, at least (if not complaints) about George Zimmerman’s aggressive behavior in his “role” as a neighborhood watch [functionary]. There is some indication that Chief Bill Lee (now the former Chief Bill Lee) had received word of these concerns about the busybody behavior of Zimmerman, and had not acted upon the calls. That is of great interest to me. If in fact Lee had decided NOT to do anything to try to make Zimmerman aware of the problem with him being too aggressive in the self-appointed role of neighborhood superhero, both his inaction and his subsequent decision to try to sweep an unnecessary death under the rug come flashing out in NEON.
The police (not Lee) opined in writing that Trayvon Martin’s death was preventable — by George Zimmerman.
I think it is clear that Trayvon Martin’s death was preventable — by the Sanford Police Department.
Reportedly, a council member AND Chief Lee were at the neighborhood watch meeting three days after the shooting. An unnamed person was “escorted out” — note the use of the passive voice here — because he or she objected to the fact that George Zimmerman had not been restrained from his aggressive behaviors.
Where is the federal investigation at this point in time? How much time does it take to figure out whether or not there was official malfeasance, misfeasance or even official misconduct in the Sanford Police Department before, on and after 2/26/2012?
Professor, may I invite consideration of a constitutional issue on some thread — it does not relate specifically to Zimmerman. On the one hand I am thinking of asking my son to put up a web-page for me to start brainstorming this idea, but on the other hand, my guess is that your law blog would be a much more hospitable home for this endeavor –
The “life interest” –
(Analog to the “liberty interests” and “property interests” we have litigated for so many years in this country)
I know it doesn’t really belong on the Zimmerman threads, but there are points of contact from all sorts of cases that could feed into it.
Title of Comment:
“Using the ‘R’ word:
Why we are not supposed to talk about actual racism
even when it’s staring us in the face”
Today I followed my own thoughts through the experiences I have had with the Trayvon Martin case. Rough ride! The reason I did this was that I’m on my way out of town, wanted a book to read on the bus, but not a library book — in case it gets lost or damaged. At the used book store I found Chester Himes’ book, “If he Hollers Let Him Go,” which I had never read — $2, paperback, so I got it.
When I was little (I’m white) I heard the rhyme in the playground with the word “tiger” in it; my mom was a teacher and when she heard me jump-roping with that rhyme, she called me in and instructed me never to say it NOT because it used the “N” word but because the original version had — which I never even knew. But she was not to be argued with, so it was relegated to TABOO.
As I paid for the book I thought, “In 1955 when I heard that rhyme, nobody would have ever heard of Trayvon Martin, even after he was killed.” I then thought, “As non-racist as George might have been, he should have presumed he’d be identified as racist after killing an unarmed Black kid who was minding his own business,” and immediately after that, I realized that in all the blogging I have done on this case, I have felt that I was under an obligation to say “It doesn’t matter if George is racist or not racist; this is not about race, it is about murder.”
Why have I felt myself so constrained?
Why have I not given myself permission to use the “R” word?
Same reason as Angela Corey said the NEN tape from Zimmerman recorded the phrase “F*cking Punks.”
She knows it doesn’t say “F*cking Punks.”
George knows it too, but he ADMITS having said “F*cking Punks.”
Why does he admit it?
Because although he said “F*cking Coons” and although he knows that he said “F*cking Coons” and although the FBI also knows that and Angela Corey’s investigator knows that and we ALL know that, we are all avoiding saying the “R” word.
This kind of reticence has led to the situation where George Z goes on Hannity and has the nerve to demand an apology from Sharpton for calling him a racist!
We’re so not allowed to call George Z a racist that he doesn’t get called down for asking for an apology after he kills an unarmed Black kid for no reason after calling him a coon?
And I took part in it; I said, “this is about murder, not about racism.”
Well, it’s about both.
Given, Corey has a better chance of getting GZ convicted if she gives him a pass on the racism issue, but does that mean we have to go along with that, when we’re not involved in the actual case?
Then I got to thinking about what we, as a culture, have to lose if we DO use the “R” word, and what we, as a culture, have to lose if we do NOT.
I saw this video, while searching around for the oral history of the “eenie meenie miney moe” rhyme:
http://whoneedsselfesteem.wordpress.com/2012/04/30/some-thoughts-on-the-trayvon-martin-case/
and it’s important.
We as a culture DO need to say that nobody can choose to pick out an innocent person, tail him, confront him, and kill him, and get away with it, but we need to go many steps further.
We need to say that we understand that racism isn’t over just because we have a Black president.
We need to say that when somebody says “coon” we can admit they said “coon” and we don’t have to join in a little “never say coon” conspiracy with them to avoid the ramifications.
We need to say that even if we don’t prosecute for a hate crime, neither will we turn our eyes away from understanding how much hatred has to do with murder in many, if not most, cases.
We need to say that if we don’t confront these demons, we are forfeiting a chance to get a little bit safer, a little bit more honest, tomorrow, than we were yesterday.
And, yes, we need to say that we will NOT apologize for identifying racism — even when it is denied — when it is obvious.
As in, “Don’t play us for a pack of idiots.”
WOW. All I can say is WOW> That was thought provoking. Yes, I must admit that I, too have prejudices about groups of people. I won’t approach a group of young men no matter WHAT color, as gangs of guys will sometimes do stupid and violent things. MY prejudice concerning blacks is more along the lines of what Bill Cosby said, and continues to say; Give up the victimhood! Support your people once you become successful! Believe in the power of education to free you! Once, I was watching the movie “Glory” about the 1st black Union militia during the Civil War. It was aired on BET. I love that movie; always cry at the end even though I know how it goes. AND YET I was SO DISGUSTED that the BET hosts were dressed like gangsters, glorifying misogynistic rappers and promoting concerts for rappers KNOWN to advocate violence, drugs and theft! THAT CRAP is what those brave men died for? What a disconnect from the honor and selflessness of the Union black soldiers to the self-centered morons of the 21st century! What can I say? Every culture, like every individual, has to go through stages of maturation. I can’t judge what they are doing now, unless I support the ones that seek education and a strong community. This case HAS made me think and LOOK at my own racism lurking inside of me. I know it’s there, so I can refuse to let it dictate my responses. That is a good first step to removing it in succeeding generations. Again, thank you for your strong post!
What’s bothering me today about the case is this:
Here is text I have been mulling over for several days now. It appeared well before Zimmerman was charged with murder.
“Zimmerman, who patrolled the Retreat at Twin Lakes development in his own car, had been called aggressive in earlier complaints to the local police and the homeowner’s association, according to a homeowner who spoke on the condition of anonymity.” [I am sure that if I were a homeowner who had made such a complaint against George to the police, I would not want him to know I was now speaking with the media!]
“At an emergency homeowner’s association meeting on March 1, ‘one man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home,’ the resident wrote in an email to HuffPost. ‘It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics’ in his neighborhood watch captain role.
“The meeting was attended by Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee, the detective assigned to the investigation and an unnamed member of the city council, according to the homeowner’s association newsletter. The chief couldn’t immediately be reached for comment about the complaints. A member of the homeowner’s association board, who asked not to be quoted by name, said she “hadn’t heard about any complaints” about Zimmerman. Zimmerman’s phone number is disconnected and efforts to reach him have been unsuccessful.
“Talk of prior complaints against Zimmerman comes as pressure mounts on law enforcement. Protesters have gathered outside Sanford police headquarters. The Martin’s family and attorneys have held press conferences calling the killing an outrage and pleading for Zimmerman’s arrest. High school classmates and citizens are granting interviews to reporters asking why no one has been charged. And as the story continues to gain national media attention, civil rights leaders, including members of the NAACP and the Rev. Al Sharpton, said they are preparing to join the family of Martin, who was black. Zimmerman is white.”
================== =================== ============
OK, as the developments have come out, and the “evidence of serious injury to Zimmerman” — meaning that silly couple of photographs that poor guy had blood on his head, as if he should be able to kill someone and not even get a scrape while doing it — and the Dershowitz outrage that Corey “overcharged” the case and so forth and so on, it almost seems that attention to these details has melted away like fog over the lake in summer.
Why would that be?
Because here’s an alternative explanation to the reason George might have actually called out “Help Help” even though he was not being beaten up that evening:
1. George’s original plan for the evening of 2/26/2012 was not to protect the community from marauders, but to protect himself from being either kicked out of the Neighborhood Watch or from being sternly informed, by the police, that he was not permitted to “patrol” while armed and dangerous. I think George might have wanted to stage an event on that evening that would have “shown” his in-his-opinion chicken-hearted neighbors that he really DID need to carry his gun around to protect them all from the bad guys, and that he should not be restrained or “harassed” about it or prevented from doing so.
2. Since there had been probably some issues with him calling 911, and maybe even he had been told that his many “cry-wolf” calls to 911 were not appreciated, he probably chose to call the non-emergency number on 2/26/2012, to alert them to the “danger” in his neighborhood without really getting them out there to deal with a problem — very quickly. (Most of the public forums were calling George’s call to the police that evening a 911 call even though it was NOT a 911 call.)
3. Note: HE DID NOT IDENTIFY HIMSELF AS A NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH VOLUNTEER TO THE DISPATCHER. There were questions about why he didn’t identify himself to Trayvon Martin (by his own admission); the more important question is why he didn’t do so when he called the NEN police line to report a suspicious guy walking around “just looking about.” IF the Neighborhood Watch’s job was to help the police keep order in the community, and the police were advising the neighbors on how to do that, why wouldn’t George have started off with, “HI, this is George Zimmerman from the Neighborhood Watch at Twin Lakes…”
4. Perhaps George’s real goal was:
a. Let the police know there is something possibly bad about to happen here, and show that the police can’t handle it alone;
b. Report it as a non-emergency so there is a “report” in the file about the suspicion to be cast upon the target of his action;
c. Provoke violence from the “suspect” before the police show up so that he, George, has to deal with it himself in order to protect himself and the community; and then
d. Pull his gun so that he can show that the loaded gun was absolutely necessary to the successful community-protection mission, right there in their backyard, right then, that night, so there should be no more questions about how important it was for George to patrol that neighborhood, in his car, armed.
=========================
PROBLEM: Trayvon Martin was not a criminal.
PROBLEM: Trayvon Martin did not go along with the program.
PROBLEM: Although Chief Lee initially took care of making sure it was listed as self-defense, and although Chief Lee initially also took care of “escorting out” of the next Neighborhood Watch meeting any dissenting voice, Chief Lee’s protection and assistance in the game of “SEE WE ALL NEED ME TO BE ARMED AND DANGEROUS AROUND HERE” was quickly neutralized when this case got bigger than Chief Lee was. And now, the case is bigger than ever, and Chief Lee is gone.
=============================
I think George went out that evening with the specific intent to NEED to defend himself, physically. I think he was ready to scream for help in order to show that he needed his gun — so he actually could and would have a chance to say, “I yelled help help help but nobody helped,” so the corollary (“I needed my gun; if I didn’t have my gun I’d be dead now”) could be confirmed.
================================
Although as soon as I heard of the case and heard that people were referring to the SYG laws, I immediately said, “This has nothing to do with the SYG laws because they do not apply,” I now have changed my mind:
This has to do with the SYG laws. It also has to do with the program that is very much backed by the NRA and the ALEC agenda. In other words, if folks like George Zimmerman could, with police backing, prove that they needed to be armed at all times to protect the poor victimized citizens from being harmed, then private corporations’ security people would also need to be armed for the same reason (bye bye union problems) and basically anybody who felt threatened (by what? YOU KNOW WHAT YOU DID, THUGS!) could deal with the “threats” when and as they needed to in order to establish law and order in our great nation.
George is still, in his way, a test case for the “I need to be armed at all times to kill those obvious anti-American thugs who want to decrease my power” philosophy backed by the NRA, ALEC, and a certain very active and very numerous segment of our paranoid population. George is weird, George is creepy; George is not even a good liar; George is probably going down for this crime, but look at what it took to make sure he didn’t get away with it. And remember, about 25% of our population thinks George Zimmerman should get not only a walk, but a reward, for killing an innocent unarmed child as a kind of initiation ritual to prove his manliness, and if he had not been charged with murder by Angela Corey, would be ready to hire him and arm him themselves, to keep THEM free of the depredations of the riff raff.
Whoever that person or those persons were who initially made complaints about George to the SPD, before Trayvon Martin was killed, and whoever that person was who was “escorted out” of the Neighborhood Watch meeting on March 1, 2012, no matter what happens to George Zimmerman in the future, I want to hear from those people and I sure hope we can all find out exactly what went down. It’s horrible that Trayvon Martin did not survive to tell us what HE would say happened that night. I don’t want others, who know what took place in that community as George Zimmerman (and others) vamped themselves up to the murderous pitch it took to snuff out his life, to remain silent.
To Malisha and The Professor -
Surely there is a way for the prosecution to identify those HOA members who complained about Zimmerman at that meeeting.
Are they on the prosecution’s witness list?
If not, why not?
This has a direct bearing on the case.
Malisha, you have an excellent analysis here.
While I don’t concur with all elements, I don’t dispute any!
You know, we can say we know what did NOT happen that night while not actually being sure of what DID happen. I’m pretty sure, based on physical evidence alone, that what did NOT happen is the following:
George was on his way to do grocery shopping after mentoring kids;
He saw Trayvon Martin and presumed him suspicious so called the NEN # to report him;
The NEN guy pressured George into giving him a street address or name of the street to show where Trayvon had “run” or “skipped” to;
In order to satisfy the dispatcher George, while forgetting he was armed with a loaded gun, got out and tried to figure out where he was;
Trayvon Martin attacked and brutally beat George Zimmerman so violently that George Zimmerman had to kill him in self defense.
OK, now that that’s out of the way (“That” = “what I believe did NOT happen that night”), any of the following could have happened:
1. George set out to bring in a criminal that night so he could increase his “kesher” with the cops; Trayvon resisted becoming a bad guy in George’s imaginary cops-and-robbers drama so George killed him in a pumped-up effort to restrain him for said stated purpose;
2. George set out to go shopping but saw someone who made him suspicious, so he got out of the car to chase him down and subdue him, but when he got dissed instead of humbly obeyed, he went off in a rage and killed Trayvon Martin;
3. George set out to go shopping but saw Trayvon Martin, figured he better protect the neighborhood, messed up everything, lost control of his scene, and realized he would be getting in trouble for the third time in a few years, thus killing his chances at becoming a highly respected heroic dominator, so he offed some punk for messing up his life;
or
97 more scenarios, all more or less likely, but all a lot more likely than George’s misbegotten divinity-planned version.
In a book entitled “A curious tale of a dog in the night-time” or something like that, an autistic kid observes that he does not lie because he would not know what to say if he DID lie. After all, if he says what really happened, he knows what to say: what really happened. But at the same time as something really did happen, thousands of things did NOT happen, and he doesn’t know which one to say, so how could he possibly choose a lie to say? It’s too difficult to say a lie; there’s too much to choose from.
So saying we have to come up with an exact story of what DID happen in order to be sure that the story told by Zimmerman (which is not even internally consistent OR consistent with the physical evidence) is false, doesn’t work for me. For me, knowing that the story Zimmerman tells is not physically possible simply means that one of the things Zimmerman refuses to tell us actually happened, and it’s not necessary for us to know exactly which one it is. He had malice (“These assholes always get away”; “Fucking punks”); he pursued Martin (“Are you following him?” “Yeah”); he killed him.
A psychiatrist named Richard Gardner died in New Jersey maybe ten, twenty years ago. He had six deep stab wounds in him and some kind of pain-killer. He had four children, at least two of whom were estranged. He was a big figure in the child sexual abuse denial industry, made a fortune, and created a “syndrome” that explained away why mothers would wrongly insist that their children had to be protected from alleged child molesters. He was the King of Junk Science and he even opined that ALL men wanted to molest children, but most of them didn’t actually do any of that because society frowned upon it as a parental practice. His death was ruled a suicide, presuming that he stabbed himself over and over after taking pain meds and why? Because his feet hurt.
I know that is not the way he died. OK, the medical examiner says that’s the way he died. (Yeah, sure, as the TV cops would say.) Surely his kids and his ex-wife would like that to be the official story — as it is — about the way he died. Even HE would probably want that to be known as the way he died. But I know that is not how it happened.
It could have happened any one of a thousand or more other ways — indeed, “Murder on the Orient Express” probably can inform us more than “Law and Order: Special Victims Unit” can in this regard. But I know he didn’t put on a few pain patches and stab himself to death.
Mysteries. All we can say we know is what did NOT happen. For instance, I’m pretty sure God did not first, create the whole world about 6,000 years ago and then, throw around a bunch of fossilized dinosaur bones to separate the faithful from the apostates in the 19th or 20th Century AD.
OK, Mark Osterman is apparently coming out with a book all about the good good George Zimmerman and about what happened when bad thug Trayvon Martin attacked him and tried to kill him and la-di-dah, BUT…
Does anybody not notice what is going on here?
Background:
George started out by talking, and then doing, what is or is not a crime but which, so far, is charged as Murder-2;
Then there was telephone traffic between George and others;
Then the police interviewed George and he gave statements that were apparently NOT INTERNALLY CONSISTENT and that, as it turns out, were not “coincident with” physical evidence of what took place that night;
THen Mark Osterman came to the police station and scooped up George and took him home to HIS PLACE;
Then George requested a VSA and he got it, a day after the event;
Then George did a videotaped “walk-through” showing what he says happened — Mark Osterman was there at that time –;
Then George gave two or three more interviews to Singleton and Serino;
Then George went into hiding at Osterman’s house and two attorneys, who subsequently quit, gave out information on his behalf;
Then George’s father gave out information on his behalf;
Frank Taaffe gave out information on his behalf;
Joe Oliver gave out information on his behalf;
Then George called Corey’s office to give her information on his own behalf but apparently she did not take the call or for some other reason it did not end up resulting in a reported piece of information;
Then George was charged with Murder-2;
Then evidence was provided to the public over the objection of George’s new lawyer, O’Mara;
Then O’Mara and George appeared on Hannity and provided more information;
Then George tried to get Barbara Walters to give him some air time but that did not result in a reported piece of information.
The combined effect of all these bits of information was a story that George wants certain parts of believed and other parts of not believed; he also wants certain parts to be attributable to him and other parts not. NOW we are told that Osterman wrote, and will soon publish, a book, that –
GET THIS –
George has not approved. Osterman, meanwhile, claims that he got the information from George.
The prosecution intends to use what George said at the Hannity interview for evidence against him, probably to impeach him.
And here comes Osterman, ready to give us a whole book full of stuff that George will do the following with:
Say certain parts of it really were true;
Selectively disavow other parts — but only after seeing how it all plays out, obviously. You won’t have George admitting or denying any of the book until he discovers the following:
(a) which parts can be disproven;
(b) which parts do not play well with the public; and
(c) which parts seem to work well with other stuff that most people believe by the time the book has made another cool million dollars for the “let’s pull George out of this problem” fund that is obviously swelling as we speak, “totally outside the knowledge or control of O’Mara or George or alleged perjuror Shellie.”
Here’s what I predict: The book will make it easier for O’Mara and West to plead George out to a plea and a sentence small enough for George to accept;
OR
The book will make enough money for George to escape no matter how much fallout there is from the situation.
The fact that Dr. Phil is lending his name to this project does not even surprise me. After all, his platitudes sound a lot like Georgespeak, at the heart of it.
I don’t care who he is. He’s not relevant to any issue in this case.
Why don’t you challenge me.
Portions of the interview have been posted below so see for yourself.
Professor I disagree. I believe that the prosecution will call Oliver to establish Zimmerman’s state of mind in the week leading up to shooting.
Maybe Zimmerman’s lies were beginning to stress him out and he was thinking about drinking again because he definitely sounded drunk on the NEN call.
I disagree with you totally. This happened some 7 years ago. And it doesn’t change the fact that they had a restraining order on him. A tidbit about FT. Nothing more.
Less than a DAY ago!? Are you on the right story?
And why are you wasting so much effort hurling insults? This thread is about Trayvon Martin and not Frank Taffee. His sick self and his dysfunctional family have nothing to do with the topic.
Pliaja: ajamazin comment regarding the restraining order. ajamazin probably has evidence. ajamazin does alot of background research. I am backin ya here ajamazin. Please help Pliaja out. I bet you have the document links, don’t ja.
i can only report that there is a confirmed domestic violence dispute between taaffee and ex wife susan, for which taaffee violated and was arrested. i have seen records of restraining orders that two of his adult children also filed against him and am trying to locate a link now.
regarding his ex and others
http://thegrio.com/2012/07/30/george-zimmerman-supporter-frank-taaffe-arrested-for-dui/
Thank you fauxmccoy – ajamazin, from what I have seen, has had documentation somewhere but doesn’t show the links as often as people would like.
@ pliaja who states “Today marks a new day in the way I intend to deal with it.”
- – - – -
many of us have been here for quite some time and have had a chance to review links posted previously. if a poster does not seem to conform to your demands on your timeline and you intend to start to ‘deal with it’ different, i will be so bold as to suggest that your days here are numbered.
It is not your place to “deal with it.” This is not your blog.
Surorisingly you overlooked my comment which I guarantee is wise than hers. I have no sympathy for a man who has been helping either cover up a murderer or shielding a cold blooded killer. This has karma written all over it. And unless you are close friends with FR I honestly don’t see how this affects you except as fodder to attack a regular blogger on this site.
I meant to say “worse” than hers. Dang auto-correct.
Cielo: Ask anyone. Do they believe that the mother feels sorry for FT. Do they believe that any of the remaining children feel sorry for FT. Because children and wife have taken out restraining orders tells me there were extreme circumstances going on in that family. There is a difference between a father and a Dad. I don’t wish him harm and I don’t feel sorry for him either. I know little about the man. I will leave condolences to him from his friends and family members who feel he is deserving. I agree with you. I have seen no evidence of trashing FT tonight. I have seen evidence on record, that is all. Thanks, Cielo.
Sorry- I don’t know the rules, obviously. I thought it was an open thread. This is my first Blog experience. When can I comment and when can I not. Am I only to reply when asked. Please advise. I do not wish to offend anyone or break any rules. Thanks.
sandra – without doubt cielo was responding to pliaja as was i.
Okay, thanks. My stomach turned thinking I was out-of-line by commenting. Whew.
Roderick, which interview are we talking about here?
I think GZ did not want to go to the E.R. because his injuries were so minimal that he didn’t want a medical report put in that evening saying, “The guy’s fine, let him go” and/or he didn’t want them to find evidence of something that he would be able to hide if he just got home before there was a total search.
In hospitals, if someone comes in claiming he’s been punched in the face, and he’s covered with blood, he’s going to get X-rays. George has avoided X-rays even when he had the chance to get them after all the money came in, and even now, they could prove or rule out that claim of a broken nose.
Whether Oliver was GZ’s AA sponsor — very interesting theory. In a case I witnessed in California, a guy came in and testified that he was somebody’s AA sponsor AND life coach and he went on and on about the guy and so forth and waxed eloquent and had it fixed up so the guy was nearly canonized and then it turns out that he was a professional actor. He had on his web-page that he thought “professional coaching [was] a scam” and he was never at an AA meeting in his life. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Of course, nobody could be subpoenaed to testify about any of that. Joe Oliver could call himself anything he wanted to call himself, it wouldn’t matter. I remember when he was asked if he worked with George, he said “not that I recall” and then the interiewer pressed him, saying he had information that he had in fact worked with George, whereupon Joe Oliver said, “Well if you have information, then you have information.”
If there is a trial it’s going to be a hoot and a holler, with witnesses like that.