Good morning, everyone. Yesterday was my birthday, so I took a little time off from blogging and did not post a new article or do a very good job of responding to many of your excellent comments. Y’all have a great discussion going on.
Commenter JD has asked what effect will all of GZ’s inconsistent statements and lies have on a jury, assuming this case goes to trial?
Put another way, just because he’s a liar, does that also mean he’s a murderer?
In this article, I propose that the answer to the question is, it depends on what he lied about and why he lied he about it.
Okay, for the sake of argument, let us suppose that y’all are members of the jury that will decide this case.
Let’s keep it simple today and just focus on GZ’s self-defense claim.
First, let’s start with some standard jury instructions.
The defendant has admitted to killing TM so that is an established fact.
The defendant claims he killed TM in self-defense and you are to presume that he did unless you are convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that he did not kill in self-defense.
The defendant has no burden to prove he acted in self-defense. Since you must presume that he acted in self-defense, he has no burden to produce any evidence.
A reasonable doubt is a doubt for which a reason exists and it may arise from the evidence or lack of evidence. It is such a doubt as would exist in the mind of a reasonable person after fully and carefully considering all of the evidence or lack of evidence.
Evidence may be direct or circumstantial. Direct evidence is evidence that is perceived through the senses. Circumstantial evidence is evidence of a chain of circumstances that, according to knowledge and common experience, lead to a conclusion. One is not necessarily better or more reliable than the other. As members of the jury, it is for you to decide how much weight to give to any evidence admitted in this case.
A person may use deadly force in self-defense, if he reasonably believes that
a. he is imminent danger of being killed or suffering grievous bodily injury and
b. the amount of force he uses to defend himself is reasonably necessary to prevent being killed or suffering grievous bodily injury.
An aggressor cannot claim self-defense.
Okay, now some evidence with which to work.
The prosecution will be able to introduce during it’s case in chief some, none or all of the statements GZ made. This means that before he ever takes the stand, assuming he chooses to testify on his own behalf, the prosecution will have introduced all of his statements to the police, including his conversation with the dispatcher.
Recall that the dispatcher told him not to follow TM and, as a student in his last semester of Criminology, he was taught that an aggressor cannot claim self-defense.
The prosecution also will have introduced evidence that he had been advised that a neighborhood watch person is limited to watching the neighborhood and calling the police to report crimes and suspicious activity. He was specifically instructed not to contact or attempt to detain a suspect because that is a job for the police to handle.
Assume the autopsy report has been admitted and the Assistant ME who performed it testified that the muzzle of the gun was 2 to 4 inches away from TM when GZ fired the fatal shot. The bullet entered TM’s chest 1″ to the left of the midline and 1/4 inch below the nipple and penetrated the chest cavity proceeding straight through from front to back destroying the right ventricle of the heart, the lower lobe of the right lung, and collapsed both lungs.
Assume the rest of the evidence that has been released and y’all have discussed has been admitted.
The prosecution will argue that, given the nature of what he knew at the time and the lies he told, there is no question that he lied to conceal that he followed TM with intent to find him after he lost sight of him and detain him, using force if necessary, until the police arrived.
“These assholes, they always get away,” likely will repeated over and over at every opportunity by the prosecution, particularly in closing argument.
The defense will argue that there is a reasonable doubt in this case, given the nature of GZ’s injuries that show TM was the aggressor, not GZ.
Now assume you are a juror. Are you going to have a reasonable doubt (i.e., a doubt for which a reason exists) that he killed in self-defense?
Come on in, the water is fine.
By the way, please suggest any topics on this case that you would like me to write about.
UPDATE:
The prosecution released this afternoon a 29-page investigation report by Investigator Chris Serino in which he said the shooting was avoidable and George Zimmerman passed up two opportunities to defuse the situation by speaking to Trayvon Martin. An additional short video also was released.
Investigator Serino wrote that Trayvon Martin did not use deadly force and:
Investigative findings show the physical injuries displayed by George Michael Zimmerman were marginally consistent with a life-threatening episode as described by him,”
The Orlando Sentinel has the cover story and the video.
My doubt is based on his written statement and his reason for why initially exited his vehicle. (Zimmerman: The dispatcher once again asked me for my exact location. I could not remember the name of the street, so I got out of my car to look for a street sign.) He then consciously perpetuates and embellishes that statement in his reenactment.
From 6:25 or so in the video — (They said “Where are you?…and I could not remember the name of the street. – cause I don’t live on this street. Retreat view circle goes in a circle. I said I don’t know and he goes…We need an address. ..and I said, I don’t know an address…I think I gave them my address…and they said…give us directions to get to you and I said…if you tell the police to go straight to the clubhouse, and make a left, my truck will be there…and again they asked me where he went…what direction he went in…and I said, I don’t know…and then I thought to get out and look for a street sign…so I got out of my car and I started walking.)
However, the 911 call clearly shows that he was, according to his own admission, in pursuit of Martin
(Dispatcher: Are you following him? Zimmerman: Yeah)
And that the dispatcher didn’t ask him for the address until well after he was out of his vehicle pursuing Martin.
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah
Dispatcher: Ok, we don’t need you to do that.
Zimmerman: Ok
Dispatcher: Alright sir what is your name?
Zimmerman: George…He ran.
Dispatcher: Alright George what’s your last name?
Zimmerman: Zimmerman
Dispatcher: And George what’s the phone number you’re calling from?
Zimmerman: [redacted by Mother Jones]
Dispatcher: Alright George we do have them on the way, do you want to meet with the
officer when they get out there?
Zimmerman: Alright, where you going to meet with them at?
Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the
club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they
go past the mailboxes, that’s my truck…[unintelligible]
Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?
Zimmerman: I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.
I believe that an objective person could conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that George Zimmerman was the Aggressor in this situation. I also believe that an objective person could conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that George Zimmerman himself saw himself as the Aggressor.
I think you’re right and, because he knows he’s the aggressor and did not kill in self-defense, he’s been lying. Repeatedly.
Also, as if the above weren’t enough, take a look at the evidence that those claimed injuries will be embeded in.
There will be a substantial question as to how GZ came by those injuries he displays.
1. The prosecution will show that Trayvon is a passive personality, young black male.
Of course, most people don’t believe that there is such a thing, because the media doesn’t find them interesting, so it portrays all young black males as being street trained in the arts of combat and ready to engage physical assault at the “drop of a hat”. But, of course that’s not true, there are many black youths who do not think of “fisticuffs” at all. Not even in their own defense, and have never thrown a punch, let alone engaged in a physical fight. Trayvon’s height alone would be enough to give many a would be bully pause.
2. Any would be assailant, has to consider what to expect, as the result of his initial attack. He can’t expect that his first blow, will send his opponent reeling and stumbling through 50 feet of helpless confusion. So, he has to be ready to handle and deal with the “follow on” defense or return offense. Thus, any such attack intended combatant, will not surrender his advantage of surprise, against an opponent who is bigger and older, and therefore figures to be a very tough adversary. The prosecution will posit that “why are you following me for?” is the plea of a helpless individual, rather than the stern challenge of a angry attacker.
3. The Prosecution will also point out that, TM has no trace on his hands from GZ. Hands that did not touch GZ, cannot have caused him to fear for his life!
4. The wounds that GZ displayed, and claims to have obtained only minutes before they were examined, were observed to have “DRIED BLOOD” on them. Even in the moist environment of that fatal night. Thus the Prosecution will posit that these wounds are much older than even the start of the confrontation.
5. These wounds do not appear to have been created by his head being bashed hard against concrete.
6. These wounds have a professionally recommended treatment of “wash with soap and water”.
7. GZ shows no signs of worry about concussion, that should be a distinct and dangerous possibility, of an attack as bad as that described by him.
So, even his wounds cast doubt on his self defense claim.
The words of Zimmerman supporters that Galbraith had said there is “no evidence” of following and/or confronting is a misread or misinterpreted the transcript. Galbraith had said they had a witness statement to a chase, the position of the body, the position of the bullet, situation positioning, and the phone call with DeeDee. He asked if there was other evidence…Galbraith said “No”. How the supporters get “no evidence” is beyond me.
Honestly, anyone sending money/supporting someone who clearly (in the far left of the spectrum) created the situation entirely, and looking conservatively, used utter foolish logic and actions resulting in a dead 11th grader is really beyond me.
I meant * bullet casing
First off, Happy Birthday Professor Leatherman! This is, by far, my favorite blog on this subject.
As a juror, I would be very interested in the fact that the physical evidence does not align to George’s statements. I would be convinced that the story, as told that night and the days after, would not be plausible given the crime scene layout, distance, as well as the likelihood that the behavior was out of alignment with Trayvon’s record thereby making the aggressive behavior unlikely from him. I would think that the distance traveled in the fight and eventual body was towards the place that Trayvon was staying verses the opposite direction of George Zimmerman’s car, as well as the aggressive language used on the call to suggest that Mr. Zimmerman would not have immediately called off his search and following. The fact he asked for the policeman to “call him” at the end after the request to “not follow” would confirm that that he intended to be further mobile with this complaint.
I would also think the embellishments involved, that are out of character to Trayvon’s school record and demeanor to be suspect. There is no way I would put any weight to Trayvon sitting up and saying “you got me”. It does not seem, in any way, even plausible. I I would take the fact that his facial injuries are not consistent with being being punched in the head many times, and his current injuries indicative of potential defensive strikes from the 17 year old child.
I think the parents testifying gives a humanity and an appeal to parents on the jury. I think the fact that Trayvon was not doing any crime and that he was talking on the phone to be weighted heavily to Trayvon’s mindset during the 20 minute ordeal. It is obvious that he was minding his business and just walking and talking like any other teenager. I would give the greater responsibility to the adult and the gun carrier than to the 11th grade teenager that had no weapon. I would also not consider his injuries to be life threatening enough to consider the fatal shot that was given. I would wonder why Zimmerman chose to follow him verses rolling down his window and asking him of he was okay. It was not late at night and the fear of the break in on a Sunday night when many are home and awake at 6:55pm not likely. It would seem paranoid on the part of Mr. Zimmerman and I would question his judgement and maturity as a 28 year year old adult, as well as a neighborhood watch captain. His decisions would not reflect adequate maturity for this job. It does seems like there was any open burglary cases at the time as the email with the police representative assured him, anything that would show “looking” for a suspect that is not at large to be suspicious of a vigilante looking for trouble where none exists.
Finally, the fact that he asked police officers if they killed anyone and had no visible emotion nor effort to save the teen would show a callousness to his death indicating a willfulness in shooting. I am not sure that would qualify as a “depraved” mind legally but I would not consider this to be self defense at all and would logically conclude that Zimmerman was the aggressor and instigator in a situation that he created.
I think Zimmerman’s lack of emotional investment in this death and his apparent “coldness” to any suggestion that Trayvon was a good kid is telling. Watching an interview with a Sandusky juror, Sandusky’s emotional state was a heavy factor in their decision. I think the same will/could happen for the Zimmerman jurors. His emotional state was one of almost bragging it seems at times with no to negative reaction to the investigators saying he was a good kid.
Thanks for the birthday greeting.
I believe you’ve analyzed this case very well and you are one of the few people who mentioned the effect his parents might have on the jury. I am thinking there may be some tears in the eyes of some of the jurors when TM’s mother listens to that terrible scream for help in the background of one the 911 calls and identifies it as her son’s scream. No one in that courtroom will fail to realize that scream is the last sound she will ever hear from her son and she will never forget it, ever.
That sort of testimony usually has a huge effect on the jury and they never forget it, either.
A lot of people are overlooking that and you didn’t.
Sybrina will make a great witness for her son.She is protective, intelligent, and devoted parent leaves an authentic, wholesome impression. I teared up at her Mother’s Day video.
It is obvious family was important to her and she was actively involved in Trayvon’s life. Tracey is devoted as well. They are both come across as very conscientious parents. I believe that will come though loud and clear.
This will make any attempt, I think, at inferring that Trayvon was a violent “thug” very difficult for the defense.
I am disgusted by all of the Trayvon bashing going on. It’s sickening and overwhelming evidence that racism is alive and well in this country.
Agreed on the racism. It is certainly around this case in more ways than just Zimmerman (who has proven himself to be “bias minded”). The police did not even look for a place that Trayvon may have been staying. It seemed like an assumption that he was a trespasser so efforts to go door to door only focused on “witnesses” verses “home”. I started studying this case for a book I am writing on social innovation which will deal with implicit racism as a primary theme but ended up getting so engulfed by the injustice of this case and the pain of the parents, I have “rested” here a while in my research. It really is a case study in and off itself of implicit racism from assumptions to actions in law enforcement as well as the general public.
The other issue though, is the direct racism seen from this case in the public eye. It has, at times, made me feel that the immorality of racism is an overwhelming obstacle. I did not expect the reaction from so many to be so outwardly direct verses the more insidious “implicit” qualities of the situation. It is hard to concentrate on implicit when the explicit is so prominent.
I was reading interviews about Rodney King after his untimely death. The things heard from his lawyer and others in the situation concerning their shock at the “demonizing” of Rodney is almost identical (as in word for word) to the situation seen today with Trayvon. There are almost no extraneous variables in the two cases that can be easily explained by the differences in situation/age/context, but no extraneous variables to explain the exact dialog of media and public except race. Those that want to ignore that aspect must be almost inept socially. It would, in a research framework, prove out to be a direct casual relationship.
There is no two ways about it.
*causal relationship
I feel like crying after reading your post.everything in your post is exactly what happened.6:55 Its maybe just getting a little dark outside.as i recall there was a game that evening.Ppl are not in bed a that time.ppl are up and about.Who would try breaking inside someones house?Trayvon was not doing anything criminal.just coming from the store and lost his life for no reason.
Sorry I meant “…NO open burglary cases at the time”
I wanted to clarify that because Zimmerman did not resolve this in a peaceful way (ie identifying himself and/or rolling down his window to see who was ok) that there was a alternative motive in his following the teen (that he obviously knew to be a teen) to be likely. I would also not believe for a moment he forgot he was armed and that the gun was gone for. If Trayvon had the upper hand in this fight, he would have been able to grab and/or disarm Zimmerman while supposedly on top of him. If he had enough control to hurt him at will, then he had enough control to obtain the gun or at least grab it momentarily. The fact there is none of Trayvon’s DNA on the gun or holster tells me there was no attempt to “go for it” at all. The excessive force used alone in this situation would convict of a minimum of manslaughter I imagine.
Also GZ cliamed he was in a fight for his life.He said his head was being slammed on the sidewalk.He sa he was punched in the face.He said he black eyes etc.We all saw him being led into the police station 20 minutes after he shot trayvon.Shirt tucked neatly in his jeans.No blood on his shirt.also he claimed he had a broken nose.Broken nose’s bleed very bad,i myself had one.Last but not least,he claims he was being beaten by trayvon,but none of G.Z. DNA WAS NOT FOUND ON TRAYVONS HANDS,BODY OR HIS CLOTHES.How is that possible?
Eggs-xactly.
We didn’t see him dragged into a squad car in a COPS episode. He’d had first aid, a clean-up from them, chance to tuck in shirt etc.
He exaggerated his injuries, sure. But he is entitled to fear even if the injuries turn out to be minor. The law may not shield the totally paranoid, it certainly would shield the coward who scares easy. He felt pain, he was afraid. Fine.
It falls down on
* no GZ DNA on TM
* no other attempt in over a minute by GZ to defend himself. If he didn’t fear enough to BITE the hand over his mouth, he didn’t fear enough for deadly force.
Excellent point!
And excellent argument for the prosecutor to make in closing argument.
Is not the absence of “defensive wounds” on Zimmerman as damaging to the story as the presence of the apparent wounds he received? I heard Serino say he did not have defensive wounds at all. How in the world was there a fight with no defensive wounds on he or Trayvon? I agree that bite marks, bruised, red, burning wrists from twisting, scratches on face, red mark on the head from a headbutt would be normal in a hand to hand combat situation Zimmerman described.
here is what I wrote and was quickly deleted at TalkLeft. Apparently saying GZ doesn’t speak the truth when he contradicts himself violates the rules of this site, which in general has a hard working moderator and a good signal to noise ratio but suffers from groupthink excessively IMO. For the most part they as a community are in so deep they can’t see the forest for the trees at this point and prefer to keep their heads in the sand about unpleasant issues like GZ’s credibility.
what i wrote:
TM ran IMHO because he was the object of a slow motion car to pedestrian chase down TTL, as can be demonstrated at trial to a strong likelihood by the timeline suggested by GZ’s own recorded call and testimony elsewhere to investigators. GZ claims TM was already at the T (and he could see it somehow, which he denies later being able to) when he arrived at his parking spot by the cut thru. Either this is true or it is false. Detectives thought the latter and will likely testify as much.
IMO the prosecution will argue GZs pushing a false narrative here to obscure the real way the two traveled from the clubhouse to the T. In the videotaped walk thru, GZ claims he was parked on TTL when TM emerged from the dog walk onto the cut thru and circled his vehicle for no apparent good reason, doubling back from his route home. (Of course GZ did not know TM was a temporary resident that night.)
Yet back at the station later, the police play the recorded call to dispatch for him for the first time. As the tape plays from the start, GZ is asked where he was when things he describes are happening. When asked repeatedly where GZ was when he is describing the alleged circling maneuver, GZ tells investigators in this final telling that he was at the clubhouse, thus contradicting his story given at the re-enactment earlier. He is asked many times, and seems sure he is at the clubhouse.
here is the link, the section is 2:00- 4:00 aprox.
http://gzlegalcase.com/documents/statements/audio_interview_0229_3.mp3
How does he reconcile this clear contradiction of himself? He doesn’t. This entire audio tape is filled with ” I don’t know” and “I don’t remember” and “it was just windy” and “I wasn’t running” when he is confronted with obvious lies he’s told.
IANAL, but IMO the jury will be told by the prosecution that this guy is pushing a false narrative, and even though he was battered, even though he may have screamed for help that never came, and even though he may have been race-baited even later, he’s covering up something significant about his actions that evening and that isn’t someone who is telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth by a long shot. It’s LYING to investigators about the events surrounding a killing and that in itself is a crime.
Yes, the prosecution still has to PROVE he committed a crime in order to send him to prison. And yes, they may not have a star eyewitness to do so. But a jury is going to see that this man has little to no credibility when he makes claims as to what went on that evening, the evening where he admits he shot an unarmed teen. Lying about how and why you arrived at a fight is a serious matter, and GZ here is caught admitting to a major contradiction in his narrative. He’s ruined his credibility here in my opinion.
And all the legalities in all the lawbooks in O’Mara’s office won’t help him in that department.
He says two things are true when only one is possible since they contradict one another.
He claims in the video walk thru that the circling took place as he was parked at the T, and later when confronted with the dispatch call recording he claims the action (including the detail of hand in waistband) happened when he was parked at the clubhouse. Both can’t be true. IMO neither is fully true. Jeralyn herself argued here on this blog that the circling took place with GZ parked facing west on TTL, as Frank Taaffe claims although to her credit she claims she came by this idea some other way than thru his stories which have been proven to be untrue in places, and disputed roundly elsewhere. IMO again he is covering for the fact that he likely followed the youth in his car when both were in sight of one another as he tries by his contradictory claims to obscure. It’s my opinion, but I’d love to see a animation using the recorded call to dispatch as a timeline how it is possible for the action to take place without GZ moving his car from somewhere near the clubhouse to where he claims he parked without it being clear that GZ was behind TM in a moving car down TTL. My theories are unpopular around here and jeralyn want me to not post too much so I’ll leave it at that for now. Don’t be surprised if this goes to trial however that I warned you this would be an issue for the defense. The prosecution makes this allegation more or less in their opening missive and will expand on it at trial by this means, mark my words.
————
end deleted comment
The short version of all this is that the biggest lie GZ told may be just the way he moved from the clubhouse to the T – because he was basically in hot pursuit in both his car and on foot, and he’s caught lying about it on the walk thru tape, and confronted with it later at the station house as heard in the tape linked above, the third and final recording for that day. The actual contradiction concerns when TM passed or “circled” GZ’s car. GZ tries to have it both ways and yet somehow leave out the middle. He’s caught and has no answer except to prevaricate when confronted with his false narrative.
A jury is going to see that GZ pushed a false narrative and has no credibility. The prosecution will say he chased the kid down, tried to detain him and then shot him in some many words and the jury would believe it.
I do not see any proper basis for Jeralyn to have deleted your comment.
Seems like legitimate comment to me.
Well, you’ll always be welcome here, even if I disagree with what you have to say.
I’m not looking for a cheering section.
I like to learn.
I like to teach.
And I like debate.
Not sure what’s up with Jeralyn,
Again, to her credit Jeralyn runs a tight ship and keeps out speculation about TM’s social life and polices comments vigilantly but she’s a concealed carry defense lawyer with a hair trigger for deleting things she may not agree with, based on trathe rloose rules IMO. But it’s her site to do with as she pleases and I’m not worried that losing a comment on a blog to the ether is going to change what the prosecution presents in a courtroom.
The prosecution here has ZERO interest in winning the battle of the bloggers…. they work hard to shield their strategy from the defense team and tried to seal many things that are now public. I don’t blame them.
Thanks for the lively discussion here and the kind words about my rambling ideas regarding this fascinating case.
The usefulness of blogs has been well demonstrated as means of parsing document dumps like wikileaks and the Abu Ghraib prison scandal. Here I’m not so sure we are not just entertaining ourselves over a things that will be settled in a court of law with a good judge and a defendant who has adequate representation. But like any train wreck it’s hard to look away.
My personal interest stems from the lack of an outside investigation into the actions of the police chief and Norm Wolfinger, who seem to me to be either corrupt, racially biased or incompetent not to see this as a good case for murder. The DoJ never really probed that aspect, and it’s a shame.
This case really bothers me if you listen to the beginning of the 911 tape it sounds as if the back ground nose is gz cocking his gun then he says o shit i think its jammed that’s clue number one he hunted down this innocent child he his story he tells in person is absolutely nothing like what he says on the911 tapes also you never hear any bells or noisethat indicated he was ever getting out of his car in the interview with scerino he really cant recall much most of his answers were i don’t remember he also couldn’t remember the street name where he lived for the years but he is greeting a college degree i don’t know how anybody believes anything he says
That’s an audaciously inflammatory charge to make, naasha about hearing GZ cock his pistol and comment on a jam. Could you provide a time in the 911 call that you hear this? The rest I agree with.
jd i stated it sounds like it to me i am no pro on gun cocking but yes i can pin point it when dispatch says whats you name he sayd george then you hear a clicking sound dispatch says ok george whats your last name sounds to me he says zimmerman o s###did it just jam then it sounds as tho he is banging it up against something just my opinion im not the expert in this case one thing we know for sure is he is lying through his teeth but i will my belief that he had his gun cocked and ready when he confronted TM.
naasha, I also hear what sounds like he chambered the gun before he answers his last name Zimmerman. Then I hear Sh*t gun, while the dispatcher is asking questions.Then I also hear the banging. I have posted somewhere the same thing. That particular gun is cheap and you have to tap the mag a few times to make sure its in.. The taps afterwards I believe IMO are him tapping the flashlight or door. I lean more towards the flashlight theory. The sound I hear before he says his last name, is different then the taps following.
just to back up my statement someone on youtube has a video that enhances it very clear for everyone to hear i believe the link is zimmerman kel tec 9 i encourage you to check it out ans share with me your belief of that segment of the 911 tape
You may be confused about the case, I have a copy of the audio that I filtered for microphone noise when there was a question about what George Zimmerman said under his breath while following Treyvon Martin.
If that’s the call you’re referring to, no such ‘jammed weapon’ statement exists. It’s fine to hold a reasonable doubt about someone’s credibility or their rendition of events, but we must not delve into fantasy. That is not how justice works.
I didn’t hear it either.
Thanks for commenting.
For the record, my best estimation as to where on the phone call is around 2:43 seconds, when Zimmerman mumbles something at the moment the 911 operator says ‘and George what’s the phone number you’re calling from?’ George Zimmerman does in fact say three syllables under his breath, but what they are is unclear. Nothing, to my ear, sounds like ‘jammed’ however.
There was a theory that the several-time repeated set of three knocking noises may have been the sound of the magazine being knocked into the gun. Several people said the Kel Tec (and other cheap guns) take a bit of knocking to get the magazine in.
I think the current theory is that what he was knocking was the flashlight, to try and get it going.
I think it’s unlikely he’d be trying to insert the magazine while running and using one hand to hold a phone and another to hold a flashlight.
The gun had one round chambered and a FULL magazine. That is achieved by chambering a round, removing the magazine, adding another bullet to it and then replacing it. Not what you’d do running along the street while on the phone. For a start where is the extra bullet? in a pocket? between your teeth? where?
No, the rustling and clinking sounds IN THE CAR when he’s saying these assholes always get away, THAT is the gun being
set up. Then he gets out and starts running. And I’d say with the gun holstered.
Happy Birthday Mr. Leatherman!
To answer your question- if I was on the jury not only would I reject the self-defense claim, I would convict Zimmerman of second degree murder.
Zimmerman’s lies started from the first minute when he tried to claim his victim’s screams were really coming from him. That speaks volumes to me. I heard those screams. The jury will hear those screams, and I can only imagine how terrified Trayvon Martin was before Zimmerman shot him. Game over. I don’t even need the other 100 lies and inconsistencies.
I have to say though I also believe O’Mara knows this, and will try to plea bargain with the state. My question is will the state go along with a lesser charge? There is also part of me who can see Zimmerman wanting to take his chances with a jury. I have a feeling all those donations likely have him thinking “awesome”, as he makes another hoodie joke. So yeah, Zimmerman just might be dumb enough to think he can prevail in court.
Zimmerman cooked his own goose on this one, I sincerely doubt that the State of Florida will accept any plea bargain, this case is way past the point where saving any money is a viable consideration!
Zimmerman has made this case political, as such he and the State have no other choice but to take their chances in court before a jury.
The Governor would have to be a fool to accept anything less, and his advisers will tell him the same, since their own status depends on keeping the governor strong. A plea bargain would make him look weak and be incredibly damaging to the public perception of justice. The equation has become so lopsided, GZ might well simply plead guilty as charged, to prevent things from getting even worse for himself.
The medics on the scene have stated for the record that they found “dried blood” on GZ’s head. Now, while that suggest premeditation, it’s not proof positive of it. But, there’s no guarantee that a jury won’t see it that way. As if things couldn’t get worse, the SP may just have evidence that GZ bled in his car as well as other details not yet released, that also suggests premeditation.
I never believed that GZ’s wounds came from the fight and I posted as much over on another blog (http://bcclist.com/2012/03/27/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-map/#comment-14663), well before we had much evidence at all. Now this dried blood statement seems to further confirm that GZ came prepared with these wounds. Whereas before, I was willing to concede the possibility that he created these wounds at the scene. The dried blood takes that away. The blood could only have dried in his car or earlier.
That means there’s a possibility that Trayvon saw a bloodied GZ and that would have truly been a frightening sight to behold. Try to imagine yourself being followed by car, by a driver who shows signs of being possibly wounded. It makes no sense and you cannot be sure, so you don’t relay that information along. But it will leave you with a terrible sense of foreboding, enough to make you scream to the public for help, rather than the usual attempt to plead with the attacker.
There’s a possibility that GZ was working in consort with others, perhaps Taaffe and maybe “John”. Both strange characters worthy of additional investigative attention. So, it may emerge that there’s enough information developed to give a jury a push to find for 1st degree, which isn’t a prohibited choice. The SP has to prove 2nd but the jury can find 1st if they are convinced that it is.
The state investigators are good, but the FBI investigators are better. If these boys engaged in racist hi-jinks in other states, pictures or witnesses of it may be discovered, that would put the final “nail in the coffin”. Often racist will attend concerts and/or gatherings held in far flung states. I remember some boys from New Jersey got in trouble in Michigan, while returning home from a racist event in So. Dakota. So it is known that racists may not be known at home, for their racist proclivities. We’ll just have to see what develops, but I just mention what could be discovered, to explain why GZ just might become suddenly convinced to simply plead as charged. If any such things are discovered and he’s confronted with them, my guess is he won’t risk facing the death penalty in a state that doesn’t hesitate to use it.
On another note, let me add my Happy Birthday Mr. Leatherman, to the chorus!
“I sincerely doubt that the State of Florida will accept any plea bargain…”
I think they will, because I think that’s what they’ve had in mind all along.
Remember, Wolfinger was taking this to the grand jury. Two days later he’s out and, courtesy of the governor, Corey’s in.
They threaten with murder 2 to get leverage to get him to take a manslaughter plea.
He goes in front of the judge, gets sentenced to do some time, and, having never made it to the grand jury, the case now never gets in front of a petit jury, either.
No investigation of the investigation, no close re-examination of the SYG law and it’s various provisions.
unitron
That might have seemed a viable strategy back then when the SP was first appointed, but since that time things have changed and GZ has lost his credibility in the eyes of the public, making him weak and ripe to be convicted of some rather serious charges.
Now the public view is that the state is opposing a very wicked liar! A very powerful surge of public opinion would be expected, if GZ get’s off easy in any way! The public must have their “pound of flesh”, because there’s simply no other way out of this! SYG is already under review and there’s a healthy wave of public sentiment against it. More cases are coming to light and poisoning the well for this law, so GZ’s plight is not the last word on it.
The simple fact is, the President himself, having been moved to speak on this case, means that there are very powerful waves of sentiment pushing against this law, across the nation. As such, GZ is a blow torch sitting atop a full fuel storage tank. The state has no choice but to do it’s best to convict at a full jury trial. Anything less is just too politically dangerous, for anyone upstairs to even imagine being able to handle, nor wanting to. At the very least, if they lose at a trial, they’ll have a jury’s verdict to shield themselves with. But they’d much rather win and make this explosive situation go away entirely.
I still think they’ll take a plea bargain if they can get one out of Zimmerman, otherwise why are they beating up on his wife?
If this goes to a jury, there’s no telling what happens (other than the glare of the national spotlight and a 3 ring media circus) once the lid opens on that particular can of worms.
unitron
OH, I don’t think they like the idea of having to risk a trial, unfortunately it’s their only way out of this mess. Not that they don’t have a very high hand, it would take some pretty goofy mistakes to blow it. My guess is they’re monitoring where GZ’s dollar support is coming from, it’s probably from out of state. Even the legislature is appalled, the ones who sponsored SYG have weighed in and said that GZ isn’t covered. Which I take to mean that the political push and pull is almost overloaded with tension. In such situations the State just can’t plead out to lesser charges, they’d be leaving too many “big boys” hanging. From Washington on down there’s just too many people with reputations on the line. A jury verdict is their only way out.
GZ has over played his hand, and now he’s trapped in a web of his own making. His wife is merely part of this “ton of bricks” approach, that’s making the various department(s) look more saintly every day.
Also, remember, they were about to let this one get away, that’s left a bad taste in everyone’s mouths and they know it. Only a “bucket of blood” will wash that taste out. So they’ve got to go for the jugular. It’s an “all or nothing” game from here on. In my opinion, we’ll just have to wait and see.
Blood starts to clot almost immediately. Superficial wounds like GZ had on his head totally stop bleeding in 5 or 6 minutes. Blood trickled down will start to dry instantly unless there is a flood of it. Easily 10 minutes elapsed between the “knockdown” and his being treated in the police car.
So dried blood on his head is nothing to be suspicious about. In fact the cleaning may have reopened the cuts just enough to get them bleeding again (possibly with a bit of assistance from GZ). In the police precinct photos, there is a big streak of blood going down to behind his left ear. This is consistent with being seated slightly leaning forward when the bleeding occurs (for example in the back of a squad car).
MUCH more interesting would be to get evidence on what blood they washed from his hands and arms. Where was it, how much of it, how wet or dry. The paramedics said they washed off blood but no details.
The difference is between “dried” and clotted. Blood doesn’t dry that fast. Most especially not in a wet. humid environment. Even thin smears, which would normally dry quite quickly, won’t do so on skin that is wet, because of the oils which slow down the process considerably. We’ll have to wait for more details, but I’m sure they’ve already had a good look at what they’ve already collected, and they’ve already obtained more detailed statements from the paramedics.
My guess is, if this is going to be a major part of the case, that would explain it being held back.
In any event, I’ll stand by my guess work! My “bet” is that the blood will figure big. We’ll see.
Happy Birthday Mr Leatherman!! I just celebrated one on the 21st!
Thanks. Happy birthday to you too and thanks for commenting.
One witness at scene said after shooting Z had his hands up (on his head?); she read it s/l Man have I screwed up’. One of Z’s drugs has side effects that can hype one up (Aderral), linked to amphetamines & used for the ADHD Z claims he has. It’s also been used for weight loss.
Whether or not he’d taken Aderral, I believe his mind went right to work on how to justify his act to avoid punishment. (Heard his yelling voice samples? How DISSIMILAR TO the screams on the 911 calls?) To defensively claim HE had been yelling help w/out being asked as he was treated in the back of a squad car…coldness & too quick of a recovery from what he’d done to TM, whom he calls a suspect’ (vs person’) to police.
That he passed 2 voice stress tests — he seems to believe his lies — he seems psychotic (a less-often side-effect of Aderral, BTW), or psychopathic.
Anyone read he stated he got on top of TM and held his hands away from his body? How is that reconciled with TM found w/hands under body?
I tell you,this crazy man chicken george is a liar.Trayvons hands were underneath his body.He said he spreaded his arms and hands like the letter t.imposible.
If not temporary psychosis and Z’s not psychopathic, why call for the police just before you shoot a person?
The 911 call being made diminishes the appearance of 1st degree, altho I’ve heard NG say premeditation can be formed in a second.
It’s possible (and thanks to SPD we’ll maybe never know) Z’s perception was hyped by Adderal which can cause anger, agitation, restlessness…he might have been more restless needing action than needing to go to the store. (Surveillance tape at clubhouse shows what could be Z walking.) Once he spotted a “suspect” as he calls TM, the chase was on.
Once in altercation, taking defensive blow(s) by TM, he might have in fact feared for his life.
Then too being out of shape he might’ve slipped on the wet grass causing himself injury while in pursuit, riling himself up further. The intensity of the screams on 911 suggested to me TM saw the weapon.
If Z had wrongfully shown it and was becoming afraid of TM as a witness telling, he might’ve chosen to get rid of the witness.
We now know that GZ is an out right liar. So, we can’t put much stock in anything he says that isn’t backed up by the evidence or testimony.
The only evidence we have of any fight/assault is GZ’s word for it. “John” who claims to have seen some of it, has recanted. But no one witnessed the start of it all.
The evidence says that Trayvon’s hands never made contact with GZ’s head, face or body. GZ, meanwhile has blood on his hands and arms. I’d have to say that the idea of a surprise attack by Trayvon is a myth! It never happened. There simply isn’t any evidence that it did. Any wounds that GZ displayed, could have been obtained by many alternative methods, and that is much more likely, than any attack that leaves Trayvon’s hands free of evidence of contact.
We would have to believe that Trayvon, could somehow hit GZ hard enough to break his nose, without breaking even a single blood vessel in his own hand. Not possible! So, if GZ’s nose was broken, it had to be broken some other way.
As anyone might suspect, part of any attack, is being able to judged what the effect of a particular action should be. So, to even consider striking a blow to GZ’s face, as a viable debilitating attack, he’d have to know that he could hit hard enough. Without any experience at combat, how would Trayvon be able to envision himself succeeding with an attack against a bigger and older adversary?
His most likely vision of the outcome of any such attack, would be having himself overwhelmed by a massive response. So, why would he even engage? Combatants need to be trained, so that they can see what to expect from the actions they take. They need this feedback to build their confidence, so that in a real situation they can evaluate for the best way to initiate contact.
Trayvon would only be guessing that he could throw a blow that would disable GZ, for any length of time. He probably wouldn’t have much faith in such a guess, since all he knows about combat is, what he’s learned from movies and tv shows. There, a blow to the face is usually followed by a vigorous response. A response he’d be unprepared to meet.
Finally, this blow, that leave no bruise on Trayvon’s hands, is supposed to have sent GZ reeling and stumbling helplessly along for some 50 feet, with Trayvon simply standing back and watching, waiting for GZ to collapse to the ground, before taking any further action. Isn’t that quite a bit of confidence for a person with no combat experience at all?
I agree, George didn’t want Trayvon’s account of events contradicting his.
This is why I’ve been having terrible thoughts about this matter.
Sure, it’s GZ’s plan to conceal what he intends to do, by using an alternative as cover. Thus he says he’s going to the store, to cover the fact that he’s going out looking for someone.
But, this time out of the box, it shows that he’s impressed by NW rules, to the extent that he know and often does, cover himself so he can carry his weapon, by lying about what he’s doing. By not making the purpose of his movements, primarily NW things, he gets to carry his weapon by happenstance.
Okay, so he does that often and we know it’s a contrivance.
But, on other days he observes NW protocols and doesn’t follow. We don’t have a series of complaints, from suspect, that GZ was following them. So, what made this one day different?
On this day he starts out breaking the rules and keeps doing so from start to finish. Even before he’s supposed to know that it will be critical that he do so, he starts substituting and generally creating confusion. So much so, that it seems that he actually was intending something that required it, something that would be very serious and much different than anything he’d ever done before.
I won’t be surprised to learn, if the SP and/or the FBI can peel back the layers and put things back in proper order, that GZ was a premeditated killer. The only explanation I can come up with is that he was put up to it by others, perhaps an initiation or rite of some kind. We’ll just have to wait and see.
Eery that when police played the 911 call(s) w/the screams to Z, Z commented it didn’t sound like him.
If the jury believes it’s Trayvon screaming for help (I sure hope they get to hear Z’s yelling voice samples in comparison), wouldn’t that alone give the state their conviction 2nd degree (or maybe 1st), due to depravity of mind to shoot TM while TM pleads for help, showing he wants intervention rather than to kill Z?
The only upset emotion I’ve heard of Z expressing was the 1st night when he cried in jail, which could have been more for HIS plight.
Wonder how his father thinks of Z now that the parents might also be having to hide…imagine reading, while in hiding & having helped w/Z’s bond, about Z and Shellie saying what a good life they’ll have after all this…
Shellie must be a bit put out to feel positive about Z since he was instrumental in her perjury and arrest.
Also in that interview if you listen intently to the background conversation with him and the lady detective she.says to gz you believe he was gz says not at that time no he think he has this all figured out i think he believes his own lies.
Wow, hope none of you hurt yourselves jumping to those conclusions!
If I was on the jury, I would take in all the information of his prior 911 calls from garage doors open, kids playing in the street, and the young black teens, or men in suspected break-ins. I would also take in consideration of witnesses saying he was a laid back guy. Balanced against other witnesses saying he was a bully at work. Worked for security who threw a woman and broke her ankle. Also his boss from security said he can be cool but when he lost it he really lost it. The ex-girlfriend who says he threw her. The undercover cop who says he pushed or shove him while trying to place other people under arrest for underage drinking. At this point in my mind I would see that he has a problem of sticking his nose in other peoples business and doesn’t follow authoritive people. I believe he thinks he is right and justified in his actions because he thinks he can do better then the professionals or that he is smarter. Which brings me to his 911 call. He is quick to call 911 for anything. In my life I believe I might of called 911 three times and I am 46. First its clear to me at least in the reenactment he was following him in his car. Then on foot. He is the intial aggressor. These assholes they always get away. Suggest to me he is not going to let one more get away. John Taaffe said from a tv interview “He had fed-up issues and wasn’t going to take it anymore” http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Trayvon-Martins-Shooter-Defended-By-Fellow-Neighborhood-Watch-Captain-143579196.html Gz injuries are not consistent were not life threating. DNA says there is no blood under Trayvon’s fingernails. It is very possible with converstions with my husband that you can get no blood from a closed fist hit. That would explain no blood. But GZ says he was being pummeled. Does not compute with pysical evidence. Its clear on his photos there are scratches. But still no foreign dna under his fingernails. John’s testimonies against witness 18 who described her accounts on a 13 page statement. Also the dog lady who heard the moans of a kid saying help me. help me. She says in her audio that she say the kid laying on the ground moaning for help. Other things like the angle of shot. I can not see how a person is shot from a straddling postion to have no angles. Overall I think he had issues before this happened and he has a narcisstic personality. I have at one point thought of premediation. Only because his other 911 calls never say assholes or they always get away. He never confronts any other suspects he has called on before. This particular time I believe he had intent and was going to do whatever it took to get this particular suspect. I think he believed in his mind, since he already had a working relationship with SPD, it would be no problem for him to track detain and or maybe even shoot someone and get away with it. He is a son of a judge. He was studying criminal justice. He had a gun. Alot of people who claim SyG know the in and outs of it. He clearly said to one of the witnesses hey he was beating me up so I had to shoot him. Thinking he might get a n award or a key to the city. I am almost certain that Tm might of had the upper hand early on but that when GZ got control he was on top because of the blood flowing toward his face. When GZ says Tm said “You’re going to die tonight motherfucker”, I say it was GZ who said it. Often in his statements it seems to me more logically that Tm would of said certain things and not GZ. In one of the 911 calls you hear who I believe is TM “I m begging you get off. I think he already had the gun out TM saw it begged for his life. I know how hard that will be to prove, but thats what I think happened. It crazy to me in this day and age, that no one fights anymore fairly. Back in the day we fought it out and lived another day. We never took a a gun and shot another person because we were losing. We took the beating but we lived to fight another day. I have seen worse at family reunions then what happened to George. I believe that GZ put Tm in a defensive posture and he did would any of us would of done, why are you following me?, What are you doing here? Even if TM threw a punch while GZ was reaching for his phone there is an reaction to every action. Gz is no one . We do not live in the age of Nazi Germany where you have to show your papers if you out on the street. GZ is no one. All guest of RVC do not have to check in with him first. Gz is not the police. His statements are inconsistent, and his timeline does not match up to his own 911 call. Considering all the information to date I would convict not only of 2nd degree murder but would convict on a 1st degree murder charge as well.
PS. I am still curious as to witnesses 4,7 and 10. to date their information has not been released.
If you were on the jury, you’d be bound by oath to only consider the evidence presented at trial by the prosecution and the defense.
If they don’t introduce it, you aren’t supposed to think about it.
That’s the way the system is designed.
unitron
A key part of GZ’s story relies on him not realizing that he is armed.
However, a cursory review of articles on the web, reveals that GZ not only carried his weapon habitually, but that he also, always have some alternative activity engaged, that could be used to explain that he wasn’t doing NW activities and/or patrolling.
That this situation appears repeatedly, instead of intermittently, indicates he’s aware of the rules and is constantly seeking to avoid being in conflict with them, such that he get’s to “innocently” carry his gun while he is not performing NW activities, but knows that one can only determine whether or not he is, or is not on NW, is by looking at the aftermath.
But, now the record has been built up against him, he’s always in “innocent possession of his firearm”, no matter what he is doing. It’s a carefully contrive cover! In this case, it serves to explain why he would not have reached for his gun earlier, because he “forgot” it was there.
I’m sure the jury will — after hearing how GZ always has an alternative activity (like walking his dog, trip to the store, etc.) engaged, while he’s actually armed and on patrol — realize that it’s not true that he could forget that he was armed, because he makes it a habit of having his gun with him at all times, and excuses to cover for that fact.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/26/encounters-with-pit-bull-reportedly-led-zimmerman-wife-to-get-guns/
Yes, GZ wants us to believe he was merely citizen George and therefore entitled to be fully armed with gun, flashlights etc.
Yes! I’ve begun to notice that GZ is all about “switcheroo”. No matter how obvious it is, about what he intends to do, he always has another “alternative” reason for doing it. I’d be willing to bet that he never goes on patrols, because by doing so, he can’t feel secure about having his gun with him. So, instead of overtly going on patrols, he walks his dog or goes to visit, or goes to the store, or goes to check out his neighbors flower bed. Patrolling is something that just somehow manages to happen, while he’s doing something else entirely.
I guess that 14 hour course the SPD made him take on NW, impressed him greatly. It must have been a real bummer for him, to realize that it wouldn’t cover him carrying a weapon around, while looking for suspicious people and “investigating” etc.
His idea of getting around rules and regs, is to pretend to be engaged in alternate activities. If he’s accused of things, he says that he said and did, what the other person actually said or did. That probably creates enough confusion that trivial infractions get dropped, and serious infractions get stalled. So, it’s been a successful gambit for him in the past, and he uses it in the TM killing.
Note that he didn’t get out of his truck to follow TM, even though we can see that’s the only reason he has to do so! But, he claims he exited his vehicle to get a street name or house number. We’re not supposed to realize that the reason he needs a street name or house number, is only so that he can tell the police where to meet him. Because, once we realize that, we also realize that he doesn’t have to get out of his vehicle, to tell the police where to meet him.
All he has to do is move his vehicle back over to the clubhouse at 1111 RVC and meet the police there.
The entire SPD, the state of Florida and the entire world, is supposed to be so stupid as to say: “Duh, yeah, he really needed to get a house number or street name really quick, or the entire neighborhood would be left at risk of imploding, because the police would not know where to meet him!”
So let’s “simplify and solve”: He didn’t need to exit his vehicle to tell the police where to meet him! Therefore he left his vehicle to track and follow Trayvon!
Also, as you note, I don’t know many people who carry guns, and even fewer still who carry flashlights casually. I used to carry a small key chain flashlight on my key chain, but even that becomes a bother because there’s just too few times it’s ever needed. So, it’s a good indication that GZ is indulging in playing cop!
Additionally, I’m hoping that someone sneaks up behind him and throws an arm around him, just to see how he reacts to physical surprises. My guess is he’ll vigorously wrestle/defend himself, as opposed to this story of abject helplessness he’s trying to weave about that tragic night.
I am still trying to understand how George was injured. Trayvon has a small amount of George’s DNA on him and that is it! EMT said George’s head was covered in blood (45%). How and why isn’t this blood on Trayvon?
Could George’s injuries be self inflicted to cover up the murder of Trayvon? How much time was available after shot rings out and police arrive? If the can of tea was used as a weapon why wasn’t the can damaged?
I doubt George Zimmerman’s injuries were self-inflicted. He only had a minute before the police officer arrived.
I am not aware of any evidence that the can of tea was used as a weapon. Police officers administering CPR at the scene of the shooting found it in the front pouch pocket of his sweatshirt hoodie.
From the picture of the back of his head, we know that he at least had time enough to make what, as far as we know, was an as yet undocumented phone call.
Or at least he appears to be using someone’s phone.
unitron
It really beats me how people can accept that TM fought with GZ, when there’s no trace evidence on TM’s hand to support such a claim.
How does GZ, show hands and arms covered with blood, yet, even after the shot, when he claims to have spread TM’s hands wide, he doesn’t get his blood on TM’s wrists?
I read a posting by a fellow who claims to have a blood spatter lab.
It’s not evidence, I couldn’t identify him, so I can only forward his findings and let others see if they can duplicate his little experiment.
He says that on a hard surface, at room temperature (72 degrees), with low humidity, a drop of blood dried in 70 minutes.
Paramedics at the scene say they found dried blood on GZ. They know the difference between dried blood and blood that has merely coagulated.
Now, using the “ball park” above, I’d note that skin is a soft surface, and it has oil and sweat cells on it, both of which likely increase drying time. Also, the humidity was high that night (raining), and the temperature was lower than room temp. 60 degrees.
So, in short, if the “ball park” is nearly correct, then we could expect blood on GZ to take even longer that 70 minutes to dry.
If we use the same 70 minutes, GZ’s wounds seem to appear prior to him even sighting TM at the cut through near Frank Taaffe’s home.
At half those 70 minutes, the wounds would appear to have been created at the Clubhouse.
In any event, there has to be some explanation for why, this blood, supposedly covering GZ’s head, face and hands, doesn’t transfer onto his supposed attacker TM. Not even when GZ handles TM’s body after death.
So, I’m getting a picture of wounds that start bleeding, then stop, then start again sometime after the police arrive.
Obviously we’ll need more clues to figure this out. Stay tuned.